“Nota Bene” (w/ Mike Birbiglia)

May 21, 2025 1h 27m

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Mike Birbiglia is in studio with the sisters to talk all things new pope, SNL, his new special, podcasting, & so much more! Truly one of the top straight men they've had on the podcast!

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This is an iHeart podcast.

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Look, man.

Look over there.

Wow, is that culture?

Yes.

Goodness.

Wow.

Las Culturistas.

Ding-dong, Las Culturistas calling.

I think we can switch the count of

lovely, straight male guests that we've had on the show on two hands now.

Skyrocketed with this one.

I just wanted to hand a male.

And I think that warrants celebration.

No, 100%.

Like, well, by the way, you know, I have got my Coquero in front of me.

And of course, it says brah.

And that had to be cosmic.

Absolutely.

I have to tell you, I'm a little distracted because Bone and I were eating something spicy today and our stomachs are in a place.

And I think it put me on a bad mood on a call we just had and I'm concerned about the way that I actually I admired you on that call.

I mean, you were, you were sort of like, it wasn't directed at anyone.

It was kind of a rallying cry to get the whole team, everyone on this Zoom on the same page about something.

Readers, Katie's, publicists, finalists, Kyles, you know, like sometimes it's just like, you get frustrated and it has to come out.

Like, and I, I, I don't even,

I don't like being like that.

I had a moment like that this morning with you before we with me?

No, with just the people in the room.

Yeah.

And I was just like, I was just exasperated.

I think sometimes you get to a certain point where you're just like, I have to vent frustrations.

And it's hard because like, I feel like my modus operandi every day is like cheerful.

Want to leave places better than I, that I came in.

Yes.

And then, but sometimes you get a little human moment and your stomach is hurt from eating something spicy and things are kind of like getting to you and you express.

Can I point out something else?

Your MO lately has been to say the full modus operandi rather than abbreviating it to MO, because this is, I think, the second time this week that you've said the full modus operandi.

And And can I tell you, every time I say the expression modus operandi, I'm like, I think this is right.

It is.

It is right.

You know what it means.

I actually did it.

I didn't know that M.O.

meant modus operandi.

Oh, yeah.

I just, I've literally been thinking of them as two totally different things.

I kind of love that, Free, that you're saying the full, that you're modus operandi.

You're tripling the vowel, the syllable count.

I think it's such a beautiful phrase.

It is.

Modus operandi.

Think about like the peaks peaks and valleys of that.

Of course.

You know what I want to kind of work in, which is so insufferable is NB or note bene.

What does that mean?

Like, you know, like when like when someone writes something and they go NB, as in, as in like, um, it's like a, it's like a PS, but it's like within the same paragraph.

It's like, I went to the store today, NB, it was crowded.

You know, I don't know about NB.

No one ever uses NB with me.

Well, anyway, that's Latin slash Italian, and we have an Italian legend with us in the room too.

Truly, it's a Roman Catholic, Italian Roman

We've got to talk about the Pope.

The Pope.

The Conclave.

Maybe, see, this is why.

There's fate and karma in the air because we have one of the, we have a, we have a scholar on the Catholic Church here.

Who met a pope?

Met a pope?

Maybe met the last great one.

Can I say that?

Now that more and more comes out about Leo.

I also, I know that I'm saying this from like a place of like, having an upset stomach and also like a little bit ornery because of

I had a thing today, but like what the fuck did people expect with the no i know no i'm not surprised it's just like it's so funny it's so funny the way that like popes are like ripe for like literal adulation from like internet people like oh my god that the new pope it's like let's all get together and watch the conclave and like what then be immediately then you find out that they're catholic it's like you're you're can i be real like this never gonna change like you're never gonna the pope is never gonna be like yeah i think gay guys should rock the fuck on That's never what the pope is gonna say No, but we liked we liked Francis because he was kind of like gay guys should rock the fuck on and then still used slurs in a fun way Literally in a way that made me go I like him really frogine made me go that is hilarious Frochagine.

Okay, I thought I forgot about that.

That's like almost as beautiful as modus operando.

Absolutely.

Well, anyway, our guest is a real legend Truly.

Truly.

This is his fourth Netflix special.

The Good Life.

It's really really sublime.

Might have shed a tear, but that's because I was at serotonin zero when I watched it.

And that's exactly where I,

the state in which I should have watched it.

I probably was like, my serotonin probably was a little bit higher than that, but I also cried.

Oh, I mean, like, it's, yeah.

There's an incredible storyteller.

There's a sensitive, amazing man.

He's a cute guy, too.

Not bad.

Not bad to look at either.

Well, don't make his head explode.

Everyone, please welcome

Mike Revelia.

This is the best introduction to a podcast I've ever experienced.

Was it?

Cute guy.

Not bad.

No, that's a.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, man.

That's a demand.

Wow, it's great to have a front runner for a title of Ep.

What is his modus operandi?

Operand die.

Do you see die or D?

I guess Latin in.

Die, I think die.

I like getting the Latin in.

Yeah, I like that modus operandi.

Can you talk to us about your current modus operandi?

My current modus modus operandi is anything mode of working i guess is um i'm in right a writer space right now i'm writing my next movie great

yeah yeah how is okay and can you share what stage you're at with it i'm at the stage of like i want to film it next spring and i've written drafts of it and i just want to get it to a point where it's an ensemble where all eight characters are like lovely and it's very like don't think twice and yeah we've all talked about don't think twice a bit because it mirrored the NYU improv

of life.

It did.

I mean, that movie, I remember, I told you this when I came on the podcast.

I'm sure you guys spoke about Don't Think Twice as well.

Like, it shook me to my core when I first watched it because I was like, I remember it was like, I don't know how you felt.

We've never really talked about that.

We hadn't really talked about Don't Think Twice.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe because it was a sensitive subject at the time.

But like.

It really scared me out.

I was like, oh, there's no way I'd be that much of a dick to my friends as the character you play in that movie.

I was like, I don't know if this is like a depiction of what our community is really like.

And then you go through that experience and you're like, oh yeah, all sorts of humanity can come out of this.

You know?

Yeah, it's like an interesting life experience of like that first time.

For me, it was like in my 30s when you realized like life isn't fair.

And like not everyone gets the same thing in your group of best friends from college.

Exactly.

But then is this new film

a lovelier bunch than the Don't Think Twice group, you would say?

It's a, it's a, I think, mixed bag.

Okay.

I think it's a fun ensemble film.

I'm really excited about it.

I don't even know if I'm going to be in it.

Like, I'm excited to just write and direct.

That's sucks.

Well, making movies is so fun.

Yeah.

And I just love it.

I love, I'm obsessed with movies.

I think that's my, my Las Culturistas kind of like way in.

It's like that.

I love movies.

We watch, for example, like we watch Wicked probably seven or eight times.

Did you know Una?

Una loved it.

She's a wicked head.

She would lose her mind if she knew I was here right now.

I don't think the kids care about me.

No,

she cares and she watches SNL and I think maybe you've been on Is a Cake.

Is it possible?

I have not been on Is a Cake.

A lot of the SNL is a huge heart that I have to help folks cross over to Isaac.

That's huge for her.

Yeah.

In the same way that it's huge for me.

Because, and can I tell you, the thing that breaks my heart about my summer is that I can't line up with the shooting dates.

Oh, bumming.

Damn it.

Oh, interesting.

So I guess I got to, whatever.

it's gotta wait, but it's coming back.

I have that

huge.

There's something, you know, who I feel like would connect with kids and clearly he has is Mikey.

There's something very like infectious about his energy and childlike about it that I think like to my daughter, Mikey is like my Steve Martin.

Oh, I love that.

I love that.

Yeah, like sometimes I'll explain to her, I'll be like, so the way you see Mikey is like how I see Steve Martin.

And she kind of gets it, I think.

You have this joke in the special where when people stop you on the street when she's with you, like a big fan of your comedy, whatever, when they like, when they like throw praise at you in passing, you know, you finally asked her one day, like, how does that make you feel when that happens?

And to spoil it?

Yeah, yeah.

And she said, well, you, you, you say it.

She goes, it's a waste of my time.

Right.

But then.

And I go, that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me.

And I know Bill Burr.

And then you know Bill Burr.

I love Burr.

Great joke.

But then someone called me the other day and they go, who's like a friend of Bill Burr?

And they're like, hey, I think Bill Burr might have some concerns about that.

I'm like, it's a compliment.

It's like a great compliment.

Does he think he's a sweetheart?

I don't know.

The reality is he is.

His persona is like, you know, he's a ball buster.

Right.

That's a good idea.

That's the way it read to me in this.

I misunderstood.

No, no.

I think let's just, okay, we can just address this here and now.

Let's address it here and now.

Bill Burr is one of the great sweethearts of the industry.

So lovely.

Her persona is ball buster.

I think so.

Yeah.

Unless I misunderstood all the specials.

No, no, no.

Well, I think that it's like to an audience watching your special, like I would imagine they watch his specials as well.

And the persona is ball buster.

So you're speaking to the persona.

You're speaking about this person with the, you know,

well, of course, I overthink everything.

So this person says this to me and I go, well, what do you think he'll say?

They go, well, he might call you.

I go, well, if he calls me, here's what I would say.

I would go.

If it wasn't your name, it wouldn't get a laugh.

Exactly.

It's like,

that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me.

And I know Chris Rock.

No one would laugh.

He doesn't have that person.

They'd be like, wait, what is she mean?

Whereas other, other, yeah.

And there's something about the ear hit of Bill Burr that the sound is pop pop.

Pop pop.

But then you say that your daughter, okay, and I believe that your daughter has said to you that that is a waste of, it's a waste of her time whenever that happens.

But does she understand that, you know,

her dad

being who he is and doing what he does ends up like is the reason why she gets to go to Rome or she or that he gets to be in a Taylor Swift music video or something like that?

She can connect to it on that level.

I'd like to think so, but you know, it's like you, and I make the joke in this special, it's like we're, my parents were not physically affectionate with me.

And like, Jenny and I are the opposite, which I'm going to, we'll find out what problem actually is when we're, when she's a grown-up, right?

It's like, you know, you're messing up something and you just try to do your best.

I'm starting to see like a micro generation under us.

Like we know people, okay, perfect example.

Friend of the show, show, Natalie Rodder Lateman.

And then another friend of the show, Celeste Yim, says the reason they love Natalie so much is because Natalie is someone who is a product of their parents loving them so much.

And she's just this wonderful, chill, like just like carefree kind of person.

Yeah.

And in a way that is like so

unfettered.

And I feel like hopefully that's where Una ends up.

I think so.

Yeah.

I'd like to for her to be able to say it's a waste of my time.

Hilarious.

Yeah.

I showed her the trailer the other day.

And then this week I'm going to show her some clips and kind of easing it some of this stuff is a little over the age 10.

yeah you know what i mean in terms of in terms of like heaviness or in terms of heaviness i think yes the stroke stuff is pretty heavy yeah

for people listening like it's about my dad having a stroke and kind of dealing with that and yeah it's pretty heavy

would it play the same in every iteration that you do the show where like there are there are these really quick shifts in room tone even not even just like your tone as a performer, but like the room, a hush falls on the room so quickly.

And then you immediately break that and it picks back up.

But like, would it, did you see the peaks and valleys every time in the same way?

It definitely varied.

And over,

you know, over time, it's like calibrating, how do you signal to the audience

quickly

that I'm going to say something serious?

We're driving it.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of it is like, honestly, just silence.

Like, there'll be moments where like, I'll just walk stage right and just not say anything for a second.

I think at this point, my audience is like, they kind of know from the old man in the pool and the new one that like, that's in there.

Yeah.

And that's like, actually like one of the coolest things about making these shows now is that like, it's not out of nowhere that there's drama.

I feel like the drama in the past was always.

I don't know, maybe my memory's bad, but it felt like it like lived a little bit longer.

And in this one, it feels like in the good life, it feels like it's the, the rhythm, the cadence is like a little bit more contracted in a way that I'm like, oh, this is really interesting.

Like you kind of like toggle between them in a quicker way.

Does it feel like that?

Yeah, I think part of it is

my other shows were about kind of pain that I experienced in the past.

And this one, for the first time, is about pain I'm experiencing in my present.

My dad is like, still hanging on after having a stroke 15 months ago.

It's like, it's devastating.

Like it's like every week, it's just really, really hard.

And we have moments, right?

It's like, and I talk about that in special is like going to celebrate his 84th birthday was beautiful.

He's surrounded by his children and his grandchildren.

And like I gave him rosary beads from the Vatican that the, that the last pope blessed.

And it's like,

I mean, I'm hoping that that's the rawness of it

is.

what connects with people.

And you guys were saying like, you're a little choked up from this.

Like, I want that to be the case.

Yeah.

I think, like, I think the for me like the the comedy that i connect to most and that's why i was saying like like movies is my like love language of like my culturista is like is like movies i think do that really well when they like james l brooks movies or like like even this weekend like we were watching because it's on netflix now because four seasons tina fee's great series

we watched the original this weekend i'm just so choked up yeah something about those 70s movies that like wrecks me.

Yeah, what's your favorite James L.

Brooks?

Um, broadcast news, absolutely, and then in terms of endearment, oh, terms number two, terms is wild.

So, I have a question, though, because you talk about like how there wasn't a lot of affection from your parents.

Like, were you always someone?

I have two questions.

One, you went to Georgetown, right?

Yeah, do you think if your parents had hugged you more, you still would have gone to Georgetown?

No, probably not, right?

Right.

So, that, thank you for answering that question so in such a short way.

Um, food for for thought out there.

And another thing is, were you always seeking out emotional outlets as a kid?

Or is that, did you arrive at wanting connections with emotional films and media a little bit later because you felt maybe delayed or lacking in that?

I think I found it.

When I was a kid, I would write like poems and songs.

Like, I found these ridiculous, like a joke book, a poem book, a songbook.

And then my, you know, I still have them all.

And they're ridiculous.

And I had no real outlet for it.

I did a little theater in high school.

And when I went to college, I auditioned for the improv group and I didn't know what improv was.

And then I was like, I'm all in on this.

And so that became my entire existence.

And that was, that was, yeah.

And it kind of weirdly still is.

Like, yes.

Like lately, I've been improvising with the PDD boys

over at UCP.

And like, it's my most joy outside of being with my family.

Yeah.

They love it.

It's so fun.

I'm a bad friend and I have yet to be at one of those, but they've asked me multiple times.

Of course

we would love both of you to come.

Let's do it.

You guys got to come improvise.

It's so fun.

We've been doing recently with Josh Harp and Aaron Jackson.

It's been like, it's so fun.

I saw that.

Yeah.

I'm afraid of that one.

No, don't be afraid.

But it's too, I feel like the bell house is, it's too big.

It's a great thing.

They might do.

So it's like,

and that feels weird for a second, but then it kind of becomes part of the bit.

The thing with them, and the thing with like, I feel like it's got to be with PDD too, because they're such little joy bubbles, I feel like, is it's like you immediately feel so comfortable and taken care of.

And I think that what was stressing me out when I was like doing improv and even doing comedy at large when I was younger is I always felt like I had something to prove.

And I was incapable of clearing the mind and just saying yes and listening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you're so concerned about what you say being funny or good or smart or worthwhile.

Yeah.

that like you need to be you either need time to understand how to do that or you need to be comfortable right at the jump and they make now that i think time has passed and i understand what comedy is and they make me so comfortable it's like a perfect situation yeah i think part of it is well first of all i love those guys i love dicks and music all the best

you're great thank you second of all i think part of it is you're right like i think when you get older you start to trust what the wisdom of the art form is or anything Like literally, like I played tennis recently.

I'm like, I think I'm better than I was like in high school when I played.

You give less of a fuck.

Yeah.

Cause do you want to know why?

There's nothing, there's no one that's going to tell you, hey, that you did a bad job and we were counting on you.

That's right.

It's so true.

I mean, it's literally, it's like, it's funny because.

I did a lot of team sports when I was growing up.

I was a big athlete and then I didn't want to do that anymore.

And so I went to college and all of a sudden it was like, oh, get on the improv or sketch team or like take classes classes at UCB where it was unfortunately a team sport

and you could disappoint people.

And when you're like,

when you're at that age and you've got your hangups and stuff, disappointing people is the top of the list that would suck.

Yeah, even because in high school, was it like a team structure?

Was it like a ladder or something in tennis?

Yeah, yeah.

Cause you had, because you had like a wrestling thing too, where you're like, wrestling, tennis, and soccer.

Those are my high school sports.

And in all of those situations, it's just, there are so many opportunities for someone to be like, hey, you're not good at this or something.

Or just making you feel like it's like a bad thing.

No, 100%.

And also, I think you, most people, me, I didn't have the presence of mind in high school to be like, they're right.

I should relax.

You know what I mean?

Like, when you get older, you're like, no, no, you should relax.

Yeah.

Like, that's how you do things well.

You can't tell a teenager or a young person to chill out.

No, they don't have to.

They can't do it.

Yeah.

It's like they haven't experienced enough life to not know that it's end-all be-all.

Right.

That's why it's so weird when you see someone who's like 15 years old and they're like amazing at a thing yes and you're like how who told you but you know they know how do you know you're so up later in life though

that's why that's why i love like queen's gambit though like i was watching that recently for the first time like late to the party

like it's fun to watch a prodigy yeah even though it's fake

it's fun to watch like oh what would that be like if you were a prodigy right you'd get addicted to drugs

i guess that's one of the few pieces of media where it does depict the full arc of prodigy and then it all falls apart later in life.

Yeah.

And then comes together.

And then comes together, which is, yeah, which is best case thing.

Thank God.

It's also really interesting because different adults' relationship to her power and success, it really is really, it's very good at exploring that as well.

You know what I mean?

Like her adopted mother and then, you know, like all the things that go on with that.

Yes.

It's

really that like that actually was a way better at, it was about so much more than that one situation.

Like all great art.

Well, that made me think to watch my daughter searching for Bobby Fisher the other day.

I've never seen.

Oh, wow.

That's a great one.

Yeah.

And then the other day for my daughter's 10th birthday, five persons leapover and they watch Clueless.

Oh, that's

more than that.

Had they never seen it?

No, some of them had, some of them hadn't.

Did they like it?

What do they think?

I think they loved it.

Oh, good.

Oh, that makes me so happy to hear because I'm like, does this, will the, because one of my curiosities is, will this work on a younger, a way younger generation?

Yeah.

And I'm so glad to hear that it has or that it might.

Yeah, they seem pretty happy.

I think it will.

We want to know why, because what makes that movie work so well is that

it's a shared language in the movie that like you may not understand, but they understand it so well.

Fantasy is so fun.

It's such a fun world.

Yeah, it really is.

There's definitely some things over the kids' heads.

Sure.

I remember watching it the first time and being like, I remember the moment.

I was in an astro van on a road trip with my parents.

And you know how they put the like big TV in the back of the astro van?

So me and my sister, I was, I think I was nine and she was six.

And we watched Coolis and it ended.

And we both just stared at the screen.

And I said, I don't know if I vocalized this, but I was like, it was something to the effect of like, I think I loved that.

And my sister, who's six, goes, me too.

I want to watch it again right now.

Oh, wow.

You know what?

And it's speaking to what you just said about it's visually so fun.

They're so confident doing it.

It's, it feels like it still feels after it's tried to be copied so many times, it feels like it's doing its own thing.

And also Alicia Silverstone, just in like a magical period.

Yeah.

Like something, sometimes stars are having, like, Val Kilmer is a good example.

He passed away recently.

You look at like real genius.

You just go, I don't know what was going on, but something was something was happening.

Yeah.

With Val Kilmer in that movie, it's like magic.

Who is that person?

Yeah.

It's so aligned with the era.

Yeah.

It's when it's, yeah, it's when a performer is aligned with the era but i mean what's like tom crew's like risky business yeah she's like i don't know what you're doing yeah but i would say lindsey lohan too i was gonna say i was just

yeah and like who else like winona rider winona for like a for like a longer period that was like a five six year period but i was just so parent trap lindsay lohan is fantastic my daughter loves oh my god

Honey is on the case.

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Have you seen this play?

John Proctor is the villain.

I've heard this is wonderful.

I wanted to make sure I brought it in today and they can even use this.

It's about a classroom in high school in 2018 who is reading the crucible under new eyes amidst me too and everything.

It's fantastic.

Oh, we'll go see it for sure.

But it got me in a Winona Ryder worm Oh, shit.

Because she was one of the best Abigail Williamses in the Crucible.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Winona Ryder is another one.

Yes.

Magical in that era.

Yeah.

Like, oh,

Beetlejuice.

Yeah.

Heathers.

Yeah.

Age of Innocence.

This is the thing I always have to remind myself about living in New York.

Sometimes with New York, you're like, all right, there's too many people.

This is just too many people.

But then you go see

a show like that.

And you go, oh, right.

Like, we went for Una's birthday to see Wicked after she's in the movie seven times.

And I'm just losing it, crying, like dancing through life just like

that ending.

Unbelievable.

Gets me.

But wait, you're saying there's too many people in New York and therefore you don't want to go and do it.

You go to the theater.

Exactly.

We want to take advantage of what we have.

I know.

Do it.

Because honestly, I'm on my kick again right now.

Obviously, it's like, it's like Tony sees it.

Well, now you have more time soon.

But and I'm seeing a lot.

And I try to only come here with like the highlights because I see a lot.

So I just saw Maybe Happy Ending, which was amazing.

and this john proctor is the villain is my favorite thing i've seen in quite some

yeah it's it's and sadie sink is the star and i'm like really excited that she used her star power from stranger things to highlight something like this oh that's great the the playwright is kimberly bellflower she's amazing joshua and jackson yes yes yes and the whole cast is fantastic it's just it's really I thought like at first, like when I saw like it marketed, it looked like Girl Boss the Crucible.

And I was like, okay, interesting, but it's like

which we would still gladly see.

You know what I'm saying?

But you never know what mainstream theater is going to do.

Of course.

But they've been impressing me every time I've gone out lately.

I'm just like really excited about what's on stage.

I love Good Night and Good Lock.

Haven't thought I was going to see that one.

I love George.

What else?

What else is up right now?

We should see.

I'm not the person to ask.

This is your guy.

But now that I've got time.

I've said the things I love.

Okay.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I get you.

Read the subtext.

Are you pre-dreading the questions you'll be asked about the Pope and about how this special kind of presciently focuses on the Pope pre-Conclave, pre-election?

Yeah, it's like it was like a year ago, Jim Gaffigan calls me, who was on behalf of Stephen Colbert, asking me to go meet the Pope.

And I was very torn.

I was Alder Boy as a kid.

And, you know,

in the 80s, like Spotlight, you know, what Spotlight was about.

Literally in Boston.

Yeah, yeah.

In Massachusetts.

Massachusetts, Massachusetts.

That was a movie that's Tom McCarthy's movie, Spotlight, that hit me so hard.

It was an incredible movie.

Wow.

But like, yeah, so I've always had like deep concerns about the Catholic Church.

And, and I thought about it.

And ultimately, it was just like, this is very important to my parents.

Like, they raised me Catholic.

My mom went to Latin Mass when she was a kid, like pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.

And so I knew, like, and they were going through a hard time.

And I was just like, okay, I'm gonna go and there's an odd synchronicity pope francis's real name was berigoglio my last name is berribilia oh and uh

yeah so you make a joke that's like he just he just kind of like

kind of like googled himself or something or no he just looked yeah like as though he like look yeah he just googled comedian he's like here's a berbilia i'm a berigoglio it's my long

he's got to be here we got to make sure he's in the room but uh you know i i as far as popes go

he was pretty good i thought so right

And yeah, he bust gay couples and he was open.

This is what Whoopi Goldberg pointed out because she was one of the people who was there with us.

She was a big fan of Pope Francis.

He welcomed divorced couples back into the church.

I was like, we weren't welcoming divorced couples.

Like, I did not get the memo on that one.

But then, uh, but then when I was there, there was a lot of talk with the insiders of like, we're a little worried that it might be a conservative pope

because the international side of of the church is sometimes very much more conservative than pope francis was right and so to your point earlier of like this new pope leo it's like

it's like yes there's there's things you can criticize but also we dodged a bullet of like yeah we got the trump of popes right right you know what i mean it could have been that could have been like could have been worse

sure sure then we retract what we what we've said about pope leo i would i that was the first thing i was going to ask you to do please i have really strong feelings with this no i i know almost nothing nothing about the Pope Leo guy.

I mean, all I know is with the way that queer media was up in arms about him being, not up in arms, but you know what I mean?

Like, people had something to say and expressing disappointment about him saying that marriage is between a man and a woman.

And unfortunately, I would remind those people, this is the Catholic Church.

Like, it's kind of, that's, that's what, that's their modus operandi.

It's their modus operandi.

So it's, it's like, I don't know.

Maybe I was more irritated at it being like a news item.

Yeah.

Here's my take on the headline.

Here's my take on all major world religions because I like to disrespect, I disrespect all religions equally.

Yeah.

Is I think a summit, we could have it.

The three of us call a summit.

Let's do it.

All the major world religions.

We'd like to talk about sexuality and gender.

How do you feel about gay people?

How do you feel about women?

Yeah.

Just like open, open forum.

Let's talk about it.

Make it a reality.

Put it on a fucking record.

You know what I mean?

But if that's how you feel, put it on the record in front of all these people and we're going to talk about it.

Because I think it's weird that we have this vague thing, like, this is kind of homophobic.

This is, you know, this is sexist.

They don't let women be priests.

They kind of do, but only sometimes.

Sometimes in Europe, it's okay, whatever.

And I'm like, no, no, let's have a summit.

Yeah, let's all

feel and then put that on a one sheet.

You know what I mean?

Put it on a Google Doc.

Put it on a Google Doc and then have lead PR, IDPR, send that out.

Yeah, IDPR, get involved.

Get and send that out to Conda Nast and Hearst.

Yeah.

No, because I'm sick of it.

People who are religious of any religion.

Like, no, no, no, we're all, are our religions okay with women?

I'm like, well, I've heard some things.

Yeah, right.

You know what I mean?

It's like, we're okay with gay people.

Well, I've heard some things.

Yeah, yeah.

Give me some thoughts.

I guess it's like, if anyone did gymnastics, you know, enough, like, you could, you could justify anything.

Like, I understand that people find, you know, a lot of peace and solace and, you know, community and these types of things, but it's like, let's just not pretend they're not what they are.

Yeah, I mean, every religion is a structure of, is structured meaning.

And then people like seek out meaning in religion.

And then they just have to like reconcile how much of themselves is compatible with like that meaning.

I'm being so general.

You know what I mean?

There actually is a good, there's a really good documentary about the Pope Francis who passed away.

called

Pope Francis A Man of His Word.

And it was interesting because he actually did like meet with a lot of different religious world leaders of other religions and i do think that that is at the moment we're in a world history like i never talk about this shit but like no no no but like that's what we should do i think the religion should meet up because it's like they have more in in common than not yeah yeah it's like you look at all the religions they're arguing with each other it's like no no no you all believe the same kind of total fake thing

totally like and no no offense like maybe it's fake maybe it's not

but it's very similar yeah what you guys believe in is very similar right so maybe we'll get on the same page about like human rights.

I don't know, just an idea.

With a mic for Bigelia.

We have to ask you the question of our podcast.

We've sort of been dancing around it in several ways, I think.

But Mike, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you?

Okay.

Since I already covered my epiphany of auditioning for an impromptu,

it's the movie Jerry Maguire.

Oh, wow.

Because when it came out, loved it.

And it made me feel a thing.

Yes.

And then I went and studied screenwriting at Georgetown and my professor, John Glavin, taught it like it was a text.

Yeah.

Like it was a book in a class.

We read the script.

We watched the movie.

We broke down the beats.

And I started to understand like, oh, this is not magic.

And this is not just a popcorn movie.

No.

Like, that's the thing is like, even Wicked is another example.

It's like, it's a popcorn movie.

A lot of people bought tickets to it, but it's really meaningful.

Like, I cried during it.

I cried during Jerry McGuire.

Like, I take the stigma away from movies that are popular, but make you feel something.

Like, that's a great feat.

I'm so glad you said that.

Yeah, he has, he has formative stuff.

I have formative stuff with Jerry Maguire.

One of the first movies we got from Blockbuster, I think.

Yeah.

Way too young to be watching it.

Yeah, sure.

Because watching Tom Cruise fuck Kelly.

Kelly Press's.

Oh my god, yes.

I was like, don't ever stop fucking me is what she was like.

Don't ever stop me.

Don't stop fucking me.

And then later, and then later, they're just like post-core to eat, like, no, no, no.

Like, usually like eating something.

Strawberries.

No, no, no.

She like dismounts them.

She goes, I'm going to get some fruit.

It's like a tight close-up, tight single on Kelly Preston.

So crazy.

Wait, yeah, but that movie made me

kind of a perfect movie.

A perfect movie.

In many ways.

And also, you know what?

I was just thinking so many elements come together to make it good.

Like the song Secret Garden by Bruce Mike.

Fuck off.

I know.

That song is so.

No, I know.

You're right.

I'm about when on the radio, they would play that song with clips and dialogue from the movie.

Oh, you had me at hello.

Literally, I would be listening to like whatever radio station 106.1 be L-I

when I was younger.

And like they would play Secret Garden with Renee doing it.

And they also did that for Sometimes My Heart Will Go On in Titanic.

Yeah, there was certain movies they did this with and it was always always those like emotional peaks of the movie

that created lore.

Yeah.

And this is a time too when I feel like soundtracking was speaking to movies in such a specific way.

You know what I mean?

Like it would like I remember having like the City of Angels soundtrack because

you remember the image of her, Meg Ryan, riding the bike with her arms out like this.

It's like there was that you kind of need music to evolve.

Do they still do that?

I would still do that.

Barbie was the most significant.

Oh, yes.

Barbie did that.

I think.

Oh, that song's great.

So good.

So many of the songs were great.

But I was going to say the last time that, like...

Maybe I'm, maybe I'm misremembering this, but I feel like with Star Isborn, when they would play either Shallow or like Always Remember Us this way, they would cut in some bits from Star Isborn.

It was like there was a, you could listen to like the radio version of Shallow or there was like a movie version.

And you know what you're thinking of is at the end when it's i'll never fall i'll never fall

um they sometimes will at the end she's like singing the last chorus and then they'll cut to him doing it from the movie yeah and that was which is what it is in the movie she doesn't because there's a version of that song where she literally just belts her tits off for the last remainder of it and it ends like like one of those ballads does but then the movie just literally cuts to him finishing the song and then it's back with her crying yeah it's amazing the other thing about jerry maguire is like it has a a love story that's not perfect right it's kind of beautiful it is beautiful because you're just like at the end you go well maybe they shouldn't be together i don't even know yeah and you're like that's kind of sweet like they're they're taking the leap together of course

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Talk about the other kind of, unless it's hard to capture with language, like talk about the magic that you felt watching it growing up that like was dispelled once you got to college.

The magic was

I'm laughing.

It's the thing that I try to achieve in my shows.

It's like, I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm feeling emotions.

And then somehow you just think because it's a quote unquote popular movie, popcorn movie, you're just like, well, that's not important.

Oh, it's so important.

I know.

It drives me crazy

when cultural things that are great are viewed as not important.

Because snobs come in.

Well, yeah.

And you know, a great example of Wicked, the original Broadway production.

People always say this.

They're like, you know, it's been running for what, 20 years or whatever.

It's like the first reviews were like snobby.

They're like, it's not that good.

And it's like, well, actually, let the audiences decide.

Yeah.

Because audiences are crushed by it.

Yeah.

I am crushed at the production of wicked i'm just like crying yeah my wife and i were crying and our you know our daughter was just like great you know what i mean like i'll never forget she loved it she loved it but it's not like that

well also because not for nothing but she doesn't under she's not old enough yet to understand maybe oh yeah why it's like i think that young girls obviously respond to that movie because of friendship and because of you know um what it feels like to feel outcast or to accept someone and to really work hard on, you know, proving loyalty.

And like that, all those things are really beautiful.

And I think that's why young girls love it.

But also like when I saw with my parents, I took my dad and my mom into it.

I saw it five times as well.

Like her.

You know, bias aside, like I also fucking love the movie.

Yeah.

And I turned to my dad and I was like, well, it's about fascism.

And he was like, and he just sat there and he was like,

yeah, it is.

And I think that that is something that's like, I love that.

Also, part of it for an adult man is it's like, wow, like this movie is literally about speaking truth to power and paying for it.

She's just an example of someone who is not strong enough and is not willing to make the sacrifice.

Right.

Then she does in the end.

She does in the end.

But we're in specifically talking about that movement, that moment of defying gravity, it's like, I'm sorry, I cannot give up all the things that make me me to join you, even if I know it's right.

Right.

And that's, that she is in process because she's been so protected and privileged.

And it's going to take a while and she's going to have to lose real stuff.

Yes.

Spoiler alert for act two for her to do those things.

And even then, she doesn't really do it publicly.

You know what I'm saying?

Pseudo cards.

So it's, that is complicated shit for an adult.

And it's, it is very moving.

And it's, and it's not.

And by the way, it's not dissimilar to the thing I'm saying.

It connects me with Jerry Maguire, the imperfection.

Yes.

The drawing out of the imperfection of just being alive.

Right.

And how nothing is cut and dry.

And Tom Cruise has never looked better.

Never looked better.

Also, yeah.

I mean, here's what I'll say.

Fucking Renee.

Unbelievable.

Renee is.

Unbelievable.

I think Renee is the reason why it's like, uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

No, it's not even just because of her line deliveries, which are spectacular.

It's just, it's an example of perfect casting.

Yeah.

The first kiss thing, and he's like snaps her bra by accident.

Yeah.

He laughs in this charming Tom Cruise way.

Yeah.

I'm going to watch that tonight.

It's perfect.

You've really enjoyed it.

Jenny and I have, my wife and I, Jen's a poet, and we both have this obsessive thing with movies, which is.

Great movies are like songs.

You can watch them over and over again, and there's something peaceful about it.

Yeah.

It changes your parameters as you're consuming this.

Yeah.

Thelma and Louise.

It's not Lost on me i'm wearing

a shirt yeah that i got it at vintage this is my favorite movies thelma and louise and it's the same thing same thing it's this it's it's and also there's this which i they don't do in movies that much anymore where they'll end it on a real curveball that's like yeah makes it art you know what i mean like i feel like there's something non-traditional and weird about her stopping him in the middle of his sentence to be like stop doing the proclamation you had me at hello right you know what i mean and also like you said maybe they shouldn't be doing this like their relationship's been a a little toxic right but it's like but they're gonna try anyway and in this movie thelma and louise obviously spoilers but if you're listening to this podcast you probably understand they choose to die they would rather drive off a cliff together than get caught and so i remember when the movie punk rock it's punk it is and and also it's just it's not it's clearly ignoring what I'm sure our studio knows 100%.

And by the way, they probably shot it both ways.

They probably shot it without them going off the cliff.

Yeah.

Maybe that's a good question.

We should find that out.

But, you know, this has made me realize is like, you're saying, like, what's the epiphany thing for me in culture?

The other one was Maybe Say Anything, which is another Cameron Crow movie.

Because I saw Say Anything when I was a kid.

And I remember quoting it with Michael Kavanaugh, my best friend, like back and forth and doing the this, you know, the boombox in the air.

And we were like 10.

Yeah.

I mean, Cameron Crowe was, I'm going to come up here and say Elizabeth Town underrated movie.

I love Elizabeth Town.

Can I say, I love this.

I love that.

I think it's so.

I think Elizabeth Town's great.

I think Almost Famous is fantastic.

Of course, of course.

That's just, that's really, that's quite a good.

And also he wrote Fast Times.

Oh, he did.

He wrote.

Didn't direct it.

Oh, God, I got to go.

And I think Fast Times is classic.

Classic.

There's something.

Wasn't Fast Times Amy Heckerling?

I think she directed it.

Yeah,

there you go.

Yeah, so all these movies, it's like there's stuff about them that Bowen uses this wonderful word, serrates them that makes them memorable.

Literally just referencing the Andres.

You know what I mean?

Just like a little bit askew.

Totally.

Slightly off.

No, completely.

Like, even like, for example, like even in Clueless, like...

You watch that movie and you see the way they're dressed and you think, oh, the early 90s.

No, they were dressed like badly and stupidly.

Yeah.

Even for that time.

But it's like, it's like, that's not how they dressed at Beverly Hills High School, I don't think.

But like,

but it's, it's overdrawn and makes you memory.

You'll, you'll never forget seeing her in that yellow.

It wasn't Vivian West, what it couldn't have.

But it feels like it might have.

Yeah.

It feels like it speaks in that world.

I can't say what designer it was.

But there's this stuff that you go out of your way.

You have to go out of your way to make it memorable and iconic.

This, the say anything thing,

is like, who holds a box like that doesn't move?

No one.

But it made it iconic.

Drama.

That's so good.

It's crazy.

And then the other ones, I mean, like, I'm obsessed with that whole 70s, 80s movies, E.T.

is like that.

Just like I could watch it over and over again.

Yeah.

It's super emotional.

You watch E.T.

now, it's like it's an indie film.

Right.

You know what I mean?

It was like the biggest blockbuster.

Jaws feels like an indie film.

Oh, Jaws is, it's unbelievable that that's as huge of a blockbuster as it is because of how slow-moving it is.

Yes.

There's this great story about the

director who

did Paper Moon, Bogdanovich.

Peter Bogdanovich

runs into Spielberg at like the Boston, like Logan airport.

And Spielberg had just shot

on Martha's Vineyard and shot Jaws.

And he's like, how did it go?

And he was just like, there's a shark.

It's a disaster.

We don't have the movie.

You know what I mean?

It's just like one of those funny stories where, like, they leave the movie set thinking they don't have it.

Yeah, right, right, right, right, right.

They were like, well, this was a huge catastrophe.

And I think they found it a lot in post in editing.

And then it changed the movie industry.

Yeah.

I mean, we had that with Don't Think Twice to some degree.

You know, there's that speech where Chris Gether goes, I think your 20s are about hope, and your 30s are about realizing how dumb it was to hope.

We added that in Post because Ira Glass, one of our producers, we were watching the movie, and he goes, The audience doesn't get when we show cuts to people, they don't get that they know they're losers or they're they know they're underdogs.

The characters do they do.

The characters know their underdogs.

And so we would have a, we showed it, we did a screening at NPR downtown.

And these two, this, these two ladies got up and they were like, I, it was a feedback screening in the early cut.

And they go, we don't like it.

And we go, why don't you like it?

Ira goes, why don't you like it?

They're losing.

And what was so funny, we went back to the edit and we're like, they're losers, they're losers.

But like,

how come we think it's funny that they're losers, but they know it?

And it's like, oh, we haven't acknowledged the characters haven't acknowledged it.

They know what they are.

Yeah.

And so we're like, what if we shot a scene where they're packing up and they're moving out of the theater and Chris Gethard goes, your 20s are about hope and your 30s are about realizing how dumb it was to hope.

change the whole screening.

Everyone is like, isn't great?

Yeah.

But also such a smart way to convey all of that.

That's a lot to communicate.

And you did it all in

that one scene.

Thanks.

It's a funny thing.

Like, even writing my movie right now that I'm writing, it's like, you really have to toe the line between how much do the characters get?

What's funny about them?

That's a really interesting idea.

Yeah.

Like, Gilmore Girls is like that, super witty.

Right.

It's like they're in on it.

But they're almost not.

Exactly.

They like they know that they're codependent or whatever, but and yet to what extent for something.

It's like a really interesting

thing that you bring up that these women were like, we don't like the movie because they're losers.

Because I actually think one of the things about Don't Think Twice that shook me to my core so much when I watched it.

And now I see it, I see it now looking back, and I fucking love the movie and appreciate it in a way I didn't at the time because I felt so defensive.

Because I think your movie, Don't Think Twice, it really makes you think about yourself.

Especially if you were doing comedy in that time, doing improv.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I just remember thinking, like,

this is a mean depiction of our community.

And I couldn't believe that your character, I'm going to use an explicit word that upsets people, but your character calls Tammy Sager's character a cunt.

And I remember I was just like, I can't believe.

But now I think that that was such a brave, bold thing to do, weirdly enough, because it really showed

ugliness and envy and

in like a very abject, painful, personal way.

And I'm not saying that like anyone that we knew or even us went as far or as shallow as any of this.

I'm just saying that like it's an incredibly intense situation that you're depicting because it's kind of like being a kid and not knowing that the world is bigger.

When you are confronted with what you assume is the only job in the world for you and it doesn't go that well, it's about everything else.

Everything else breaks down.

Yeah.

And friendship's so intense.

Like when I was was writing that movie, I was hosting a QA with Noah Bombach for the movie While We're Young, I think it was, or maybe he was Frances High, I forget.

And I said to him, I go, I'm writing this movie about an improv group and they're best friends, and one of them gets on SNL and the rest of them don't.

And I go, but the people giving me notes are like, the stakes aren't high enough.

What are they talking about?

He goes, and that was the funny thing because it's depicted, you know, indicative of all of his movies.

He goes, there's no stakes higher than friendship.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

Yeah.

As we just sit here and say the word yeah 50 times.

But it's I want this to be our engagement of a deeper friendship between the three of us.

Yes.

Because I feel like whenever I see you guys, whenever we run into each other, it's like, I think there's love.

I think there's love.

There is love.

But I'm like, we should spend more time together.

Well,

you are good with the gays.

Oh, yeah.

Lots of gays.

You know, he is old friends with Jordan Ardino.

Really?

You know for Gilmore girls.

Yeah.

He's closest high school and college friends.

Yeah.

Really?

Wait, Massachusetts?

Yeah.

Jordan?

California.

California to Massachusetts.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan's amazing.

Jordan's a great writer.

He's a great writer.

Yeah.

He and I were in that same screenwriting class in college.

Oh, really?

We were close friends in high school.

And then he came to visit me when I was in college.

He was at Tufts.

And then he was just like, I just want to go here.

Yeah.

And so he transferred.

We went to college together.

Yeah.

Well, we wanted to go to Georgetown.

That's a lot of not hugs.

That's a real question.

That's what number 30.

I would say you.

I don't want to speak for Jordan, but I think I can say

that.

You'll chime in.

It's a lot of not hugs.