“Turn Up The Volume” (w/ Tourmaline)

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Hey, big news for all you Platonic fans.

Season two is officially out on Apple TV Plus.

If you missed season one, here's the gist.

Seth Rogan and Rose Byrne, Legends, play a pair of Platonic besties, just like Matt and I, who are a total disaster together in the funniest way.

I can't wait to see that.

Luke McFarland.

Well, now I'm really excited.

Luke and Carla Gallo.

Okay, get me to the theater.

I mean, the show.

The TV.

The TV.

See, the thing is, Apple TV Plus is like watching a movie in your own home.

Everything on there is so excellent.

And you'll spot some familiar faces from SNL, like Adie Bryan.

I know her.

Season two of Platonic is now streaming on Apple TV Plus.

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Look, man.

Oh, I see.

My IOI.

Oh, and look over there.

Wow, is that culture?

Yes.

Goodness.

Wow.

Las Cultoristas.

Ding-dong.

Las Culturistas calling.

Now, I have to really check in with you because you are, as of two days ago, officially a New Yorker again.

Yeah, it's now happened, happened.

Yeah.

But I will say, the thing about moving is then you have to like do that process and i can't believe what i'm finding in my closet yeah so one of my best friends melissa came over and we went through all of my clothes and really really really said does it spark joy i guess we did like a marine moment

so much of my shit did not spark joy it's okay and i'm like all this stuff that i was around didn't spark joy and it literally was you'll find it weighs you down like have you done like a deep like donation moment done like a quarterly purge and it's still not enough.

No, it's still not enough.

Yeah.

And it's, I don't consider myself someone who like.

shops egregiously.

I guess like we've all been made to be like, I guess I need that just because it's like you hit a call to action and then it's, you hit Adjacard and it's in.

It's, you know what it is for me?

It's like stuff you accumulate at things where they like give you a shirt.

It's like, oh no, I need that Yankees Pride shirt.

No, you don't.

Oh no, I need that

shirt that says like that niche phrase that I'm into this week i found a shirt the other day what it's that i got from

it was from the game show writer's room and it said you want to fuck me barbara which is a line from notes on a scandal which literally there would have been one time to wear it and it's when we had kate blanchette on this podcast and i did

do it so i gotta say thank you to the writer's room of game show for that gift but it's gone it had to go in the marie kondo move hey that's okay now would you would you i'm gonna posit something Okay.

Would you be okay with me, let's say, looking at a shirt that says, you're Lisa Barlow, I care a lot for me, too shirt.

Not that I've done this.

Would you be okay with me disposing it?

I just got rid of it.

That's okay.

And I thought to myself, because when you're on, like the, I remember watching, I probably was watching Salt Lake City Housewives.

She said,

what was it?

She said, she said, I care about me too.

No, I feel for me too.

I feel for me too.

I'm sorry.

I feel for me too.

And at the moment, I was like, wow, that's amazing.

You go on, on, you know, whatever it is, like Etsy or whatever, and there it is as a shirt.

And you say, well, I got to buy that.

You go on Redbubble.

It's there.

If you buy every piece of merch that has a cute housewife saying,

you're going to be living in shit.

And that is rule of culture number 40.

If you buy every piece of merch that has a cute housewife saying, you're going to be living in shit.

And I've been living in shit.

And I tell you, I can breathe again.

I know.

Isn't that nice?

Yes.

And quarterly, I'm going to pick that up from.

Quarterly is nice.

And it's just nice to be back in New York when you have sort of dusted off the internal cobwebs for yourself.

Like, I hope it feels fresh for you.

We're getting some rain today.

You know what?

I was moving in the rain yesterday and they had closed down my street because of a bicycle race.

And I said, you know what, Matt?

You want a New York back.

You're getting it back.

That's what it's all about.

And I'm happy.

I'm thrilled.

I love my new place.

It's still slowly coming together as it's the process, but like returning to New York, we were just talking to our guest about this because our guest is an iconic New Yorker.

She's, she's has a, she has a prodigal return, as it were.

Prodigal return

fact.

Fantastic new book.

Yes, the new book is actually, it's not only very much the definitive, I would say, biography on Marsha P.

Johnson, but also this is a book about, this is a queer history of New York.

Yeah.

And that is something that I really loved about it.

And we were just saying before we got on, like specifically this area, you know, your Christopher Street, your West Village, your, your Stonewall area.

Like, we have so much personal history there.

And I'm so proud to have that history.

And reading this book made me so proud.

She has such a deep history with this part of town, truly.

Definitive.

Which I want to talk about this because there's like a Nashville evocation over the West Village that's happening right now.

And I would love to talk about this.

Oh, we should talk about it.

Our guest is a filmmaker and artist, one of the great queer archivists that we have.

I reached out to her for the first time because I was reading Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions, and you wrote such a beautiful introduction to that.

And I was like, I have to reach out to her.

Like, this is one of the most beautiful pieces of queer writing that I've ever read.

And I think I DM'd you.

Yeah.

And then I was like, hi, I'm just like a fan.

Like, you wrote such a beautiful thing.

And then when, when it was announced that you were writing like the kind of the first, the first ever, the first ever Marcia P.

Johnson biography, I got so excited.

And then I'm so glad this worked out so that you were on.

The book is Marcia, The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P.

Johnson.

May 20th.

She's just one of the most important icons we've had in our history.

And to know that such an exhaustive, brilliant piece of writing now exists.

It's just beautiful.

And we are so proud to welcome you to the podcast.

Please welcome to your ears.

Tourmali!

Hi.

Thank you both for having me so much.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm really excited to dig into it.

And I mean,

it's not just Marsha, it's that area.

You bring it to life beautifully.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I mean, I have spent so much time on Christopher Street.

I started going there as a teenager when I was at Columbia, taking that slow one train down.

And that's where I found found my people.

That's where I found like queer, trans, gender, non-conforming young people just taking up space.

We were turning up the volume of our life.

Like we were being all of who we were.

And also we were getting, you know, noise and resistance.

The people who lived there weren't into us.

The police weren't into us.

And yet, similar to Marsha, that was just a jumping off point for turning up the volume more.

Yeah.

That's a beautiful way to put it, though.

It's really beautiful.

I mean, like, if you're lucky in life, like, it's just a big opportunity to just like gradually turn up the dial or have someone like knock it down and then you just keep turning it the other way.

I need to know about the

commute from Columbia down.

Yeah, the one train commute.

The one train commute, pre-iPhone.

It was just long, you know, it was just, but you know, I was saying before, like I live in Miami right now and I drive up to Disney World all the time because that's like my place of home.

Yes.

But commuting for me is a place where I find clarity.

It's like I fall into the daydream.

I fall into the imagination as an artist.

You know, some of us have studios, but for me, like New York City was my studio.

Yeah.

And the subway train was my place of like rest and respite.

Yeah.

I still get my best reading done on the train.

Yes.

I think I read most of the book on the train.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

And it felt right.

It did feel like it was connected and rooted in this whole like, oh, like I'm, I am a citizen, a denizen of the city.

Absolutely.

And like I am, I am part of this grand fabric of people and like you would pass literally the Sheridan Square stop yeah I would like I would like be on the one and like past Sheridan Square I was like it all happened upstairs literally and Marsha I have a dear friend Augusto Machado who was part of the angels of light hot peaches early drag culture right and Augusto talks about how Marsha would be above the Christopher Street stop and be a symbol for anyone who this is like the early 60s right

70s, a symbol for anyone who is coming from a place where they had to turn down the volume, right?

When they saw Marcia, they knew all of them was welcome in that space.

And so that goes to what you're saying.

It's like, it happened right above us.

And as you ascend, it's like, it's like, it's like what you see.

You see that, you see the vision.

I mean, you write like so vividly about, you know, the time.

Like I'm in reading about the Stonewall riots, like it's, it's just, you forget when you're there now, or or like maybe it's more top of mind now as things get you know more tense and over the past few years things get more difficult but it's so

you read about the violence in that area but i associate it with so much joy and it is all of those things and you write so beautifully about like Marsha's lack of correct recollection also speaking to the fact that that she is in that way like a living document and it is all those things so it's really kind of,

it's important, I think, to realize like as you walk around with that joy, it does hold that history.

Yeah, absolutely.

And like trauma shapes our memory, right?

Like

there's so many.

beautiful writings and teachings about how violence and trauma affect not just, you know, like how we feel about ourselves, but how we recall ourselves in our community.

And so Marcia talked about that really beautifully.

She talked about being lost in the music, right?

There's this beautiful clip where she's being interviewed in the basement of a West Village house, and she's talking about being lost in the music ever since the 1969 Stonewall riots.

And she couldn't remember what date, you know, at first she's talking about the 70s and then like 1963.

And then she's like lost in the music, the Stonewall.

And then she recalled Marvin Gaye heard it through the grapevine, right?

And that was the music playing on the jukebox when the police raided Stonewall.

And so it's this beautiful, malleable, like kind kind of piscean she was a virgo but this piscean way you know are you what's your name

cancer oh my god

the way that that always happens

oh my god

right yes literally oh my god that's so funny we want to try the water trying that happens a lot

okay okay well that took it to the next level

but her her sort of reconceiving that moment is piscean in the sense sense that it's just like but you know what?

Because it's trauma-shaped memory, but like that memory for her, like she, you, you write about how she kind of like conflates that with her birthday.

Exactly.

And it's like, it's still joyful in this way.

And it's a birthing too.

Yeah.

Like Stonewall birth a new era for her and so many, right?

It was a moment where three articles of law,

three articles of clothing, laws, right?

The police were using these laws to repress and

make small transgender not conform people, right?

I have a dear friend, Miss Major, who was also at Stonewall,

trans elder, and she talks about, you know, you would get arrested just for going outside, right?

Marcia would be regularly picked up by the police, whether it was in Times Square or on Christopher Street, just by going outside.

And what is so beautiful about that moment, too, is like she was reaching for a bigger sense of knowing that she mattered.

And she did it from a place of turning over the table, right?

When we're feeling really afraid, it can be so powerful to reach for anger, righteous anger, righteous revenge.

And that was what Stonewall for her really was about.

Yeah.

There's this thing that happens where

injustice is happening right in front of you.

Something bad is happening right in front of you.

And there is just this like

stasis and like being a bystander to those things that like someone needs to break that

in order for anything to happen.

Exactly.

And it like calls upon you to be like a brave person.

Yes.

And the fact that

there were obviously brave people before Marsha and before Sylvia and before anyone who was there that night.

Of course.

But it does just take this like

transcendence beyond yourself that Marsha was very tapped into spiritually to make you go, well, let's fucking.

like let's start the revolution.

Because it's like also unbearable to live in a place of fear.

Yeah.

Right.

Like it is, I've experienced this.

I remember like in, you know, I've lived in New York for a long time and I had many different kinds of expressions in New York.

Like sometimes the volume of my life, I came out of organizing, right?

So welfare, healthcare, housing, you know, police and prison issues.

Those were the things that I was doing for a really long time before I became an artist.

And

it was so important for me to be with my community in that.

And we were doing campaigns and kind of raising visibility, but the volume of my life and my expression was really turned down.

And it was this kind of dichotomy between that.

And so I remember these moments where I was like, this is, I, how can I show up for other people if I'm not going to actually be the most authentic version of myself?

It's, it's so, it costs more for my soul to be fearful than it does to actually like.

tap into my power and be exuberant.

Yeah.

Speaking of power, you, you, there's a line in this book, which really, I, I like had to read it many times because it meant so much to me.

And I thought you put it so well.

And I'm going to, if I butcher it, you can correct me, but it's

power can be wrestled out of someone who's wielding power thoughtlessly or carelessly.

And it's something, I think it was speaking to the fact that like.

There was obviously, I mean, Stonewall was a riot.

There was a, there was a breakout, but it's almost like the police at the time didn't know what to do with it because then they were thinking like, wait, why exactly are we oppressing these people?

What exactly?

i know we're following and maintaining the rule of law but why is the law what it is maybe that's worth questioning yeah can you just talk about the connection between those thoughts yeah well i think it's like when someone is tapped into who they really are they have more power fastly and more clarity and better sense of timing right than all of the people who don't it takes it severs your power i think on a spiritual way and a um an energetic way to be pushing someone down relentlessly and so the people who were plugged into who they were, like Marsha, and took that like fearless moment and were like, actually, this is not okay, have are connected to a well of resource that

shapes worlds.

And you saw it.

So I think about that all the time.

It's like with everything that's going on right now, people who are trying to like erase our lives have

a real kind of like, they're not tapped in

at all.

They're not tapped into who they are.

And so

when we meet that with an abundance of spirit, an abundance of connection to those that came before and also those who are being pushed down, I think we have, we have the resources.

We do, because

the oppressor is not dialing up the volume on their life.

That's what I'm saying.

By oppressing.

That's exactly right.

Yeah, like, but like we are kind of forced to, and I'm saying we in the sort of general sense, like we

in our oppression,

our only option is just to turn up the volume.

Even though despair is like the thing that's supposed to happen,

despair is supposed to be like a transitional place for me.

That's the thing that

in my queer experience that I've learned.

Are you saying that you, in your drives up to Disney World, are tapping into your spirituality?

100%.

Okay.

Like literally, I'm listening to like my manifesting page.

I'm like, you know,

listening to like Loraji and my music and whatever.

And it's that to me, I'm absolutely tapping into it.

What are you doing at Disney?

Okay, so I'm doing all of it, but

where are you most spiritually tapped in?

Rise of the Resistance.

Yes.

Yeah, like literally.

It's literally art.

I'm reading Walt Disney's biography right now

because, like, honestly, that I want to make art like that.

Yeah.

And I hope and aspire that my art builds a world that people feel invited to.

That's what the point of the book is.

It's like, come into

Marsh's world that is is expansive, where you get permission to actually be who you are.

And so to me, I think about other people who create on that scale, you know, and that's really my desire is like to create culture and art on that scale, whether through a photograph, a film, a book, or like a theme park.

Because I feel, because you had an exhibit somewhere, you had to show somewhere where it was like a portal, right?

Yeah.

So at the Whitney Biennials

portal.

And then also I have work up with the Met and in the the Afrofuturist Period Room.

And it's two photographs, two self-portraits.

One where I'm floating in midair in a spacesuit, and the other where it's like I'm back in time in the 1800s, kind of evoking this early transfigure.

Mary Jones lived on Green Street in Soho in the 1830s.

And so the Afrofuturist Period Room is also like a portal, right?

You get to step into a space that imagines that Seneca Village, which preceded Central Park, still exists, right?

It's this question of like, what if we got to live freely?

And then

my hope is that people see in their own life, like, what if I act more freely, right?

In this moment, in this moment, in this moment.

So, yeah.

Do you think that, like, just to speak about like, because we were talking about Disney and now it's funny because we were just talking before we got on, like, they opened Epic Universe and they used portal pass holders.

They use

portals.

Like, that's the con, that's the language that they're using, portals into worlds, not lands, not like bridges.

It's totally portal.

And there is something about immersion

in the sort of,

you know, oh my God, the girl who did the very long

four-hour thing about Disney,

the hotel.

Oh, I watched that.

Yes, yes, yes.

Lindsay something.

She does all these like long content videos.

Yeah, and they're so good.

Everybody loved the hotel one.

The hotel one was great.

And she talked about this concept of immersion.

Yes.

About how like...

It really feels like as entertainment and as experiences and as technology goes on and on and on.

I think this is kind of what Westworld was obviously going to go to.

It's like the kind of final frontier of entertainment and enjoying, you know,

these experiences, the goal being like full immersion.

What do you think that that is?

Why do you think we're there?

Well, I think, you know, for me, like I make art films, right?

And, um, or kind of like short films.

And so I always think about, this is going to sound strange, but the first, one of the first films I saw was Wizard of Oz, right?

And I think about this moment right where it goes from black and white to technicolor yeah and it did something to my my mind right it's a paradigm shift and so I think immersion is really a paradigm shift so I have a film salesia that's at tape modern and it goes from 1830s New York to Sylvia Rivera on Christopher Street along the Hudson River what she called the river Jordan and I was hoping to evoke that wizard of oz feeling that is like black and white to technicolor because when I'm immersed in something I'm seeing it differently, right?

Like you are kind of like hacking or editing your reality in a particular way.

Yeah.

That almost speaks to Marcia P.

Johnson's recollection of the time because she was fully immersed in the experience.

And so she cannot see it clearly because she is existing within it.

Whereas from the outside,

there are, of course, facts about when stormwall happens, but when you're immersed in the experience and therefore part of the atmosphere, you can't really be expected.

And also, there's some joy in that.

And you're losing yourself into the moment.

It's like when artists are performing or a musician is performing on stage.

It's like you're fully there.

You're fully channeling.

The parameters change.

The parameters change.

And it says something about the fact that the collective recollection, collective recollection of Stonewall, of the riot is that no one quite knows exactly what happened.

But that's exactly.

It's not just one person.

That's not Marshall not being able to recall it.

But it's a lot of people because it's not, my friend Leah Lakshmi writes really beautifully about how riots are not sane events.

They're not neuro-normative events.

You're in an altered state.

And I think that speaks to what you're saying: is like, you're not going to have total recall.

You're fully in this altered place.

Yeah, there was not like a first brick.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Even though there were people who were first rippling out, like Marsha in the back room or Stormay or, you know, like Nova, there were people rippling, but these were popping off simultaneously.

yeah you write so well in the book about the community that was built not even around marcia but just with like horizontally with marcia just sort of like there as a leader yes in this in this space but it's like it's really wild that it all is contained in the neighborhood or on christopher street like her whole life just

began in a way like her parameters changed on Christopher Street at Sheridan Square and then, you know, has this tragic, almost beautifully mysterious ending too.

That's right.

Right on Christopher Street.

Right on Christopher Street.

And then that's where everyone celebrated her life after

they

spread her ashes at the river.

The fact that it's so local and yet so globally impactful is always what's kind of crazy to me.

Like it happened right there.

Like the start of queer liberation happened on that street where like there's McDonald's two blocks down or whatever.

Yeah, and it used to be a stream.

Like it was one of the longest streets in New York.

I kind of go into like the history of the city a little bit and it was like a water, us all being water signs.

It was a water pathway, Christopher Street was way hundreds of years ago.

And it had a flow and kind of like it, in a lyrical sense, it mirrored Marsha's flow.

When I was writing the book at the end, I lived on Christopher Street.

I lived on Christopher and Hudson, and it just, it was so trippy to experience how, you know, Marsha had a birth, a becoming right at Stonewall.

And then there was a moment where, you know, an ending, not the ending of her, but an ending of

Christopher and Hunts in the water.

And so it just is, it's so profound.

And how could it not raise these kinds of spiritual questions?

Yeah.

I really do like believe that, and this is where I'll get Piscean woo-woo, but like there are places that just have

energy.

Like, and I do think that that intersection has energy.

Like there is an energy there.

It is thick.

You are more powerful there.

I will always have such gorgeous memories.

This is when Bowen and I were in our mid-20s.

I was dating Henry Kaperski.

Shout out.

And he would play the piano at the downstairs duplex.

And we would go and Bowen would do the most incredible performance of Lady Gaga's rendition of Bang Bang by Nancy Sinatra.

And I will just never forget the people coming up to the window and looking in, not knowing it would be, you know, future superstar Bowen Yang.

But like, it's just, there was something about it.

Like, we were all performers there.

We were all stars there.

Like, that's right.

I remember that's where I started.

Literally, I started the Christmas show.

Yes.

Like, for 70 people upstairs, like,

and just seeing people go up and express themselves.

And you are lended that because of the history, even if you're not conscious of it.

That's it.

Because it's woven into the place.

It's woven into the energy of the place.

I think that's exactly right.

My friend Randy, Randy's like 83 now, but he was, do you ever go to Julius?

Yeah, of course.

Okay, so he led the sit-in before Stonewall.

Wow.

At Julius, you know, like this was in 1965 or something like that, a few years before Stonewall, Julius was a straight bar that refused to serve openly gay people.

And he went there and he led, he, you know, borrowed tactics from the Black Liberation Movement, the civil rights movement, and he led this beautiful sit-in.

And so there's all of these spots that pop off like that, so much so that it's like, it's not one place.

It is an abundance of places creating a very particular vibe.

Yeah.

It almost feels like in that it's like a true circle

of queer bars and like a queer community, it does feel protective, almost like a witchy spiritual circle.

You know what I mean?

It's like, it's like you, it's like any,

anything uncouth or untoward, like, it's like, If, yeah, it's just, it would feel like a true violation.

We are protected there.

And I honestly feel like the entire thing needs to be historically landmarked absolutely i fear for the duplex i do i i i like it it it bothers me to know that like it's just a building that could get taken down because it's not it's not it's not right and i think it's interesting too is um you know like we are creating also the new places in that space when hundreds and hundreds of people showed up at um you know in charitan square and we're like you cannot erase the tea from um the national park service websites or erase Marsha and Sylvia.

Right, exactly.

I think we're creating, you know, it's like it was powerful then and it's powerful now and it's summoning force.

Yeah.

But then

you can have it show up in any form where you, you either have hundreds of people show up at Sheridan Square or you have 15,000 people show up at the Brooklyn Museum in 2020.

That's exactly right.

That was a moment where I was like, oh my God, like this is, this is how we show up now because we always were like, it's so hard to like visualize what it was like back then and in the absence of like documentation or photography but it's like the way it proliferates now is even more sort of functional because it's like anyone could see that from anywhere that image anywhere and then go there now or just know where to find their people or resources now yeah which is probably much important

Honey is on the case.

Starting today, Focus Features invites you to Honey Done.

Follow the clues to the coolest, sexiest, most scandalous murder mystery of the summer.

In a small desert town full of odd folks with strange obsessions, a suspicious car crash sets off a series of deadly events.

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From Academy Award winner Ethan Cohen, a director of No Country for Old Men.

In a town where everyone has a secret and no one can be trusted, the name on everyone's lips is Honey.

Honey Don't, written by Ethan Cohen and Tricia Cook.

Rated R, under 17, not admitted without parent.

In theaters everywhere today.

Hey, everyone.

We know many of you probably have a watch list with all the streaming shows you want to see.

Well, if you haven't seen Platonic on Apple TV Plus, you need to add it to yours now.

It's hilarious.

Seth Rogan and Rose Byrne play a pair of platonic besties like Matt and I, who are as likely to cause trouble for each other as they are to support each other.

If you have seen it, you already know that.

But you might not know that season two of Platonic Platonic is out now.

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I started just thinking about how if there were like just this, they'd be reading this in high school.

You know what I mean?

And I just, I feel like I'd be remiss not to talk about with you here, someone who's so involved in the literary and art community and like someone who's like, you know, out here writing really important work about queer historical figures.

If you could just speak to and talk about what you're seeing in terms of like attacks on these types of books and like things like that and the removal of these types of really important works that explain and you know include people yeah in people like marshall p johnson's legacy well we're seeing it from obviously the highest office uh political office right with trump's executive orders that are having a real material effect on our community you know ever since the inauguration where he was talking about their official policy two genders right i have a dear friend who tried to travel through the airport two weeks ago i had people yeah

and she was the tsa didn't allow her to enter because she has an x on her ID, a state-issued ID, and they also wouldn't let her leave the airport.

And so we're actually seeing these, it's not just rhetoric, it's having a real concrete effect on our lives.

It's also really affecting.

I always want to make sure we're including like our trans siblings who are incarcerated.

And so that it's having a huge effect on incarcerated people.

And it's also affecting the classroom, right?

And these institutions of art and creativity, we saw the National Endowment of Arts today, museums where my work is up.

Mass Mocha just made an announcement that the NEA is withdrawing funding.

So we're really seeing

in real time affect

our political landscape.

So many organizations of any size are like losing out on all this NEA stuff.

Boffo, I heard

is losing in on NEA stuff.

A lot of these, the only way that I have known how to be present because of scheduling stuff and like I literally can't even like show up like in any place outside of, outside of work right now.

It's like, okay, like Bafo is raising funds.

Let's go there.

Let's, let's drop some cash there.

Let's drop some cash for the doll invasion in August.

Yes.

Like let's just like plop some little, some little windfalls wherever we, like we as in me, like I'm trying to do that in the only way that I know how now because it's like, we cannot feel helpless in this moment.

Exactly.

Despair has to be a transitional phase.

It cannot be the terminus.

That's exactly right.

I think to me, you know, an organization that's near and dear to my heart is the Trans Justice Funding Project.

So I've been raising funds for a Trans Justice Funding Project, which funds, it gives funds to rural grassroots organizations throughout the South, First Nation organizations, which are really important, places that are not necessarily just on the coast.

And so I always like to bring up.

Yeah.

God.

I mean, is it,

how much of this do you have to sort of like hold in your mind like at any given time?

I feel like you are, in your work, you're so expansive in the people that you think about that I feel like there must be some weight to that.

Yeah.

I think part of it is I've been doing this for a long time, right?

And there are moments that evoke an incredible amount of grief.

Seeing loved ones die from lack of care or from violence is definitely like a part of my story.

This moment, for whatever reason, I also feel tapped into a sense of hope because I have come to a place where I firmly believe the bigger the problem, the bigger the solution.

And that solutions are created from problems.

And that when we pivot our focus from not, you know, it's really important to talk about the bad things going on, but also when we pivot to, well, how are we showing up in the world?

You were just doing that.

I think that's really magnetic.

compelling energy.

More and more people are looking for who are the helpers.

I think it was like Mr.

Rogers.

He was like, look for the helpers, right?

I firmly believe that now.

It's like, who are the helpers in our community?

We know things are so hard.

And when I do that, I feel lighter.

Like I have a greater sense of clarity.

It's like when I clean, similarly, I have a greater sense of clarity.

And also when I'm looking for the helpers and looking for the solutions.

You're driving to Disney.

Literally, honestly, driving to Disney, Tiana's,

seven doors.

You get to do Tiana's Bayou Adventure.

Oh, really?

It broke down when I was on the backstage.

It stays breaking down.

But it was really cool because we got to leave through the back door and see everything, which was, I mean, I love the backstage.

Yeah,

we were on Tower of the Terror when it broke down.

Oh, my God.

And we were high as a kite.

We were high as a kite.

And we were like, uh, and like they come, they come out of like a you know, like a hallway with fluorescent, like lighting.

And they're like, hey, you guys have to come down.

And you literally walked.

It was

so high.

Oh, my God.

But it was hilarious because then we took an actual elevator.

We took an elevator down to the ground floor.

We were dying.

We were like, okay.

Can you drop along the way?

Now Now drop.

All we did was rise.

And so then there was that thing of like in your head when you're expecting one thing, but then it never comes.

So we kept like.

But that was me and Tiana's.

We stopped literally before the last time.

That's when Jennifer Ellis is like up there.

Literally.

I have to go see her for so many reasons.

It's my co-star.

I love that.

Jennifer is a legend.

But it's like AOC on her like fight the oligarchy tour.

One of the things she's been speaking to, and I do think it's so important, and it's something that I struggle with, you know, over the past six weeks, like I find myself like traveling a lot and like doing some things that are making me happy and taking opportunities.

And I, there is like a degree of guilt because every time I turn on the news, it feels like.

devastation.

It feels like depression.

It feels like more darkness encroaching.

But one thing she said was that you have to take your opportunities to feel joy.

I remember hearing that.

Because it could be so easy right now to forget.

And then you forget what you're fighting for.

Yeah.

And also when you, I have found I don't know if you have but when I'm in a more joyful place I have a greater capacity to show up for people in my life

it's like my the plug is plugged into the electricity in my joy and so I can be channeling solutions more and when in when I'm just vibing in despair I don't necessarily lose that capacity but it shows that it's it's diminished at least for me

yeah and is this part of the imagination for the theme park which is that is kind of the ultimate place for you

okay thank you for seeing me of course but no, no, you're hurting the right place.

Okay, fab.

Yeah, I am from a young age, and I do think it did come out of like,

honestly, I think my obsession with it started when I was seven or eight.

We were just talking about this because Bowen and I went to Epic Universe.

They were kind enough to invite us

to see it, and we're going to be at the grand opening.

Oh, my God.

And it's so exciting.

May 22nd.

May 22nd.

21st.

Yeah, something like that.

So we're going to be there.

And we were being asked because because they filmed us doing, they filmed us on the GoPro doing the Stardust Racers.

Oh, my God.

So, we were asked, we were online, like about our experiences with theme parks.

And I said, I've been a Universal Parks fan since I was seven or eight, and I went on the Back to the Future ride.

And I remember it, I didn't understand that immersive entertainment like that.

And I think it made me want to be creative.

And I think that's why it's important.

And that's why I get on my soapbox so much about them lowering those goddamn prices because families need to be able to experience that.

That is what Walt would have wanted, et cetera.

But my thing is, it is

really formative for a young kid.

Like we went into the Super Nintendo world.

Yeah.

And I was like, my sister, who's a grown-ass woman,

like, walked in and has tears in her eyes.

And I'm like, yeah, imagine being a child.

Exactly.

Like, it's crazy.

Those experiences are so special.

Yeah.

I can only go so often because of the Florida discount.

Well, yes.

Which is incredible.

It's like, it's much more discounted.

Everyone should have access to places that help them them plug in their light to have a greater sense of imagination.

You know, there's this moment where I think it's Kevin Costner talking about riding the original Disney rides over and over and over again.

My whole YouTube algorithm is theme parks.

Okay, me too.

I'll just be on deck.

Literally, that's the only thing that comes out of my daughter.

I'll be at listening to Alicia Stella's podcast.

Literally.

Shout out Alicia.

You are amazed.

Jenny Nicholson, by the way, is Jenny Nicholson.

We forgot her name.

She's a legend, but like, I'm not bioreconstruct looking at the,

what is your, what's your algorithm?

Okay, so it's all like epic,

Disney, and then like manifesting.

That's literally.

Oh, yeah.

That's a great little trio.

That's really good.

And they talk to each other.

They literally talk to each other because you have to, like, for me at least, I have to imagine it into being, right?

Yeah.

And Marcia was doing that.

I write a little bit about the hot spring hotels in Times Square, right?

These were hourly hotels where, you know, you literally would be arrested

if you were a trans person expressing any part of your authenticity in Times Square, right?

Because they would assume it was solicitation, exactly.

And these laws actually stayed into the books.

You know, 2020 was when the three articles

Andrew Cuomo, former governor, right?

And so Marsha, when they could hustle a little bit of money, they would rent these hourly hotels and they called them hot spring hotels because whether, whatever season it was, it was always really hot.

But these were places where they would dream their life into being, right?

They would have a little bit of relief from the police and violence on the street and they would ask each other again and again and again, like, what would it feel like to be able to move through the world with a greater sense of ease or a greater sense of freedom?

And so to me, those places, whether it's the Hourly Hotel or a Disney theme park or Epic, those are the places that we get to, at least for me, imagine a world where we get to show up more free and more playful.

Yeah.

The site specificity is important because I was going to say, like even like the porn theaters in Times Square would be places where like they would just stay all day

and think and just and just like they were being like a little black box space or whatever.

Like the world was at some remote

that they could like access this like imagination spirituality a little bit.

Yeah.

And Samuel Delaney, I don't know if you've read like Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, writes about it really beautiful.

But, you know, and also Marcia came from a place of like kind of

naivete, right?

Like she was, you know, she was working at a child's restaurant.

So she was a waitress.

And then she was befriending these street queens, like Sylvia, who was 13, if I can only imagine.

It's insane.

Literally.

And then was going to these theaters.

And there's this interview where she's talking about, oh, like, you won't lick that man's toes.

You know, she's in her mind kept getting blown by this imagery and being like, oh, like, I guess people are doing these things.

So it was really powerful to like read that part.

It's a portal.

It's a a portal.

It's a portal.

And

do you feel this way about children's literature?

Like our friend Julio was telling us, like, he, he wrote this beautiful children's book.

And whenever I did like a book event with him, I was like, what inspired you to write children's literature?

And he was like, it's the most politically powerful medium that we have.

Yeah.

So I also wrote a children's book that comes out the same day.

It's called One Day in June.

And it starts with a caretaker with a little one on re-speech.

I don't know if y'all go to

Queer Haven Sanctuary.

And then it goes up to Raquel Willis's speech at the Brooklyn Museum with 15,000 people.

And it's really about channeling that frequency, just like a radio station of Marsha and how she is in the everyday.

She's in the permission to be all of who we are.

She's in, you know, worker who is giving her tips to someone who can't afford to buy their kid ice cream.

She's in the dancing at Raul's.

She's, you know, or the club.

You know, it's like all of this vibe is very available.

And to me, in a moment when young ones, kids are being told really firmly that either they don't exist, that their truth is wrong and they're, they need to change, or they're just, you know, turning the dial of their, of their life and truth down, it was really important to have a book that's not that, right?

That's we're giving ourselves permission to play and to try new things and also to connect it to a history that is still so palpable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Talk about this really interesting metaphor that I feel like you're returning to, which is turning up the volume, adjusting to the frequency,

like plugging in.

Right.

I feel like you're describing life in a way or just like, you know, the human experience in a way that is very like,

that's a toggle or that can be like modulated in a sense.

Absolutely.

And in a way, I kind of, not in a way, I really do love that.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, that's just how I've come to experience the world.

Yeah.

there is something

underpinning all of our experience.

And whether you call that like God or the universe or source or joy, which is just another word for it, you can readily tune to that wherever you are.

And so a lot of times when you're feeling fear, the path of least resistance to that is to get really angry about the situation that brings you closer to a feeling of clarity and joy and that frequency that's fully available.

So to me, part of that is just like a basis of manifesting.

And so, there are people who are talking about manifesting or bringing things into the material.

But I really believe that there is a Marsha frequency,

you know, like a joy frequency that when we're feeling all of who we are and we're inviting all aspects of ourselves into the room, we have like clear, clear access to that.

There's a really wonderful thing about listening to Marsha's voice that I found.

I have like pressed play on videos or, or just like in, there's footage of her in your, in your film.

Yeah.

Happy birthday, Marsha, where I could just like listen to her talk all day.

Like she would have tore it up on a podcast.

Literally.

What do I mean?

Literally.

She's hilarious.

I mean, she's so

funny, original.

And I was here yesterday because my friend Maquel Willis is doing a podcast about Marsha called Afterlife.

And she was talking about seeing these YouTube clips of Marsha that Randy Ricker was filming.

And Marcia just has great timing.

You know, she's like, get your heart ready for heart failure to the filmer, right?

And then she's like, and then I'll get the camera.

You know, like, you're going to, you're going to expire because of my outfit.

And then I'm going to jack your camera.

And it's just like these bits that she was always doing.

And she modeled herself a lot of her performance work off of Billy Burke, who was the original Glenda, exactly.

And was a vaudeville actress.

And so Marsha did this.

She was playing the jet.

She was like the bimbo.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She was playing the bimbo.

And she was well aware.

like there was a moment when she was in the west end in london the only time she really traveled from the u.s and she was at um drill hall which is now rada studios and she was performing the dits and the audience didn't get it like people were writing like marsha must have be having an off night because she's not quite hitting the notes you know or she's not really remembering her lines but that was her persona and she did it so well and and

just one week before she died she said i love when people think I'm just a ditz or a silly little street queen because I can work them out of their money.

Like she was well aware from childhood.

She was in a chorus with her brother Bob and her sister Jeannie in Elizabeth, New Jersey.

And they used to go around to the neighbors and sing for money.

And she would sing completely off key.

And Jeannie Michaels is like, but they always gave her the money.

And it was because she was doing this on purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

They loved to see a little kid like go all over the scale and they'll just be like, oh yeah, like, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A true performer.

A true performer.

Exactly.

Yeah.

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If you have seen it, you already know that.

But you might not know that season two of Platonic is out now.

This season, Rogan and Byrne deal with uncomfortably hilarious midlife hurdles, including new business ventures, weddings, and partners in crises.

And as best friends do, they try to help each other, but sometimes just make things worse.

These two are just so funny together.

Love them.

Luke McFarlane and Carla Gallo are so back this season alongside new guest stars, including some seriously funny SNL alums, Adie Bryant, Kyle Mooney, and Beck Bennett, and the fabulous Milo Mannheim.

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We're here to tell you about Searchlight Pictures' new film, The Roses.

Perfect Couple, Ivy, played by Olivia Coleman, and Theo Rose, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, have it all.

Successful careers, a loving marriage, great kids.

But when Theo's career comes crashing down, just as Ivy's fame starts to skyrocket, a tinderbox of fierce competition and growing resentment ignites, threatening to destroy everything they've built if they don't destroy each other first.

All's fair when love is war.

For anyone who's ever been in a relationship, The Roses is a crowd-pleasing comedy.

Starring Benedict Cumberbatch, Olivia Coleman, Andy Samberg, Allison Jani, Belinda Bromalo, Sunita Mani, Shutigatwa, Jamie Dimitrio, Zoe Chow, and Kate McKinnon.

From the director of Meet the Parents, Jay Roach, and the writer of Poor Things, Tony McNamara.

Comedy seems to be the genre of the moment.

It's easy to see why everyone could use a good laugh.

In theaters everywhere august 29th get tickets now

speaking of conjuring up the childhood memories etc we have to ask you the question yes the central question of ost culture is this which is what was the culture that made you say culture was for me like that's the formative element of whatever kind of pop culture or culture in general that made you you you feel well we talked about wizard of oz but also with my dad i went to matine films because they were cheaper yes And we saw literally like every single Eddie Murphy movie.

Oh my God, that's so funny you say that.

Really?

My dad did the same thing with Eddie Murphy.

Oh my god, my goodness.

It was the only movie that he was like,

and my dad kind of styled himself off of Eddie Murphy.

And so, you know, it was all of it, right?

But I remember Harlem Knights with Della Reese and those costumes and Richard Pryor.

And then, you know, later The Wiz with Richard Pryor and the Emerald Sequence theme.

But it was really that humor.

Yeah.

And which I lost for a little while.

But I remember that we were, we went to have a good time.

We went to have fun.

And it was like everything Eddie Murphy.

And so that really was like,

jealousy is a good indicator for me because it shows me what I want to be doing.

And so when I'm like jealous about someone's career, it's not like I hope they don't have it.

I'm like, I want to be doing that thing.

It's really important.

And so it's like, I can remember being jealous, you know, as a little kid of all these people who got to act on stage.

And you're like, I want to be doing that.

Yeah, and you get it in your head like you hate them.

You get it in your head that you hate them, but you really just want to do what they're doing, but don't know how to do it.

That's all that jealousy is.

And so to me, I was like, I can just remember being Harlem Knights, you know, Beverly Hills, all of the Beverly Hills cops, you know, like Golden Child, all of them where I was just like, I want to be one of these people on screen, like having, having a ball.

I was jealous of raven for being in the and dr doolittle too oh my god yeah because like she gets to play eddie murphy's daughter i don't know why i was like

i want to be eddie

my dad my dad my dad put me in that car and said get in the car and we went to see nutty professor 2 mind blowing

oh my clubs with janet jackson janet

i i could tell it was for him yes but i had so much joy because my dad was sharing something explicitly with and he never took me to the movies it was that i told you good burger.

And Good Burger.

But Eddie doing drag and

so many movies.

It was exactly mind-blowing as my child.

Yeah, it really is.

Did you grow up?

I grew up in Roxbury, which is a part of Boston.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So then, also, it's so cool that Mass Mocha, like that you're

exactly.

But, okay, can we do an assessment as a group about the movie Norbit?

Because

I

thought stoned out of my mind in high school, and I'm yet to re-watch it.

And I'm nervous to revisit it because I'm like, this is going to be so,

this is going to be so chaotic for so many reasons, but is it worth like I'm like, do I just like go home and watch Norbit sometimes soon?

I think so.

He is a genius.

He's a genius.

He's a literal and he's also kind of ahead of the curve in a very particular, consistent way where I feel like so much later, you might be picking up something

that you didn't see at first.

Totally.

I feel like something though that like fucking sucks to have to tackle this type of thing.

I feel like we're talking about a couple of things where there are like, there's elephants in the room, right?

There is an elephant in the room with Eddie Murphy's homophobia.

There's an elephant in the room with Epic Universe having Harry Potter and the J.K.

Rowling absolutely.

Absolutely.

I just wonder, like, how do you personally navigate that and filter that?

Because I find myself having a really hard time with that.

Yeah.

Of course, these are in the past, et cetera.

I think it's, you know, it's interesting because.

When I say my dad really like styled George Gossett Jr.

himself off of Eddie, like it was all of it.

It was also the homophobia and transphobia, right?

And he died in 2010.

And in a similar way that I have a kind of like spiritual relationship with Marsha, I have one with my dad where

it is really easy to see now that people who are

saying the most kind of like intense, vile things also around HIV and AIDS and you know, like it's all of course

are either like not surrounded by our community,

right?

Which in in and of itself is you're missing out on such a blessing.

Yeah.

So that's like a place of, oh, like you are really missing out.

You know, like it sucks for you.

And then also when people are doing that, it's so clear.

No one who's feeling really good about themselves is consistently attacking another person.

Right.

I just don't think.

I can't.

I don't think that you can be in a place of joy and also be pushing against someone.

No, she's not happy sitting in her house

on Twitter all day.

And so to me, I'm like, I just have a place of,

I think I give like maybe Eddie Murphy a lot of grace around, okay, you are young and that's a long time ago.

And doing long time ago,

fame from a family that maybe, I don't know.

I'm just like, you're a famous young black person, and all of a sudden everything that you're saying is the talk of the town.

And so it's not like my dad who says homophobic things and then no one knows about, but it's everywhere.

And so to me, I'm like, oh, this, this is so sad for you.

Right.

And also, I just, I don't know, I I have such a warm spot in my heart around Eddie Murphy.

Maybe because

and with JK Rawling, she seems so miserable.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, what's going on there, girl?

Like, you, something is going on because you are so going out of your way to attack like my community

when we're literally just being alive.

Yeah.

And then, you know, the celebration of the UK Supreme Court.

I don't know if y'all saw it.

Yeah, I like the cigar store.

Yeah.

Disgusting.

There's something so intense going on if a symbol of freedom, a symbol of expansiveness is causing such a knee-jerk response that you have to go out of your way to attack it.

And so I'm like, you are not connected to what I'm about, right?

Like you are, you can't be in a place of pleasure and happiness and joy when you're going out of your way to do that.

And so with her, I'm just like, bless you on your journey.

You're either going to figure it out now or like when you're immaterial.

And

I don't know.

immaterial it's like my only the well the only way I can rationalize it with her is that it's like oh you got so rich and famous off of writing this morality tale that your set of morals your code of morals is sort of indisputable and it's the only thing it's the only correct thing in the world and that she the mechanism by which she's putting down trans people is by victimizing cis women in a way that is like more dire than what's it's literally in a way that is that it's like not happening it's like it's it's yes it's fabricated it's fabric it's completely, all of it is fabricated, right?

The, the fear is completely fabricated because the scary things that they're talking about aren't being committed or produced by trans and gender non-conforming people, which are such a small part of the population and are like, we're just trying to live.

This is a fabricated like fear response to either not being able to figure out the economy.

So you're blaming like trans fids, you know, it's like

and or whatever is going on with JK, like not being able to figure out her own stuff.

And so to me, yeah, it's it's completely fabric did y'all go into the harry potter ride we i mean we did speaking of like i mean here's but the thing is the thing is like here this is my and i struggled yeah and my thing was like

you know what i just thought about relatives that i have that now have really gone hard for trump yeah and i can't recognize them from what they were when i was growing up and the fact is they're not the same person, but they will not take my memories of them from when I was a kid.

And so I kind of just said, like, you know what?

She is not going to ruin

this thing for me that, like,

again, made me want to be creative, made me want to be who I am.

I love that.

And my thing is just like, I'm just not going to let her have that.

I'm not going to let her cloud.

That's right.

Like, ruin this experience for me.

And the thing too is just like, you know what's great?

The dark universe.

Yeah, that's the dark universe is amazing.

And Harry Trunner Dragon Universe, but we had,

wait, I've never seen the movies.

I loved it.

Totally.

I love that.

Okay.

I mean, it's wonderful.

The Harry Potter thing is, I understand why they did it because it's such a catchy.

Yeah, of course.

And I will say, the ride is actually kind of cunchy because it's like Dolores Umbridge's trial.

And I'm like, god damn it.

Why am I walking in here having thought feelings when it's like a trial ride?

It's like this, it's like so gay.

You know what I mean?

It's like

you're walking in and it's like, she's on trial.

We're going to watch her be named guilty.

And she catches free and Emil DeSunton comes back and gives like a fierce performance.

and you're like, oh God, JK, shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up.

That's awesome.

But where are you at with it?

Will you go in there?

I mean, yeah.

You know,

because it's like, you would not be abandoning anything about your transness by going there necessarily.

Wasn't it kind of revolutionary?

Isn't it like people showing up to places where they're not wanted is kind of like

the revolution.

Not the revolutionary thing to do, but kind of like the transformation.

It's transformative to be in a place where they're not up to speed with your beauty or your value or your worth or your deservingness and to just not turn your dial to that but to like actually i belong everywhere i go right and exactly including this place that i love yeah especially as like as someone who's like it's such a crazy moment in theme park history too like it's like the epic universe of it all by the way it is that good like the hype is so real yeah it's like the first time in 25 years that they've opened like a major theme park like that and it's like it's just what they've done with the theme park technology You're going to be so ghast for this monsters on chain drive.

Like, it's really good.

And just like the story that they tell with that, we've been joking about Victoria Frankenstein on this podcast for a year.

It's a gag.

I love her.

She's a queen.

Oh, my God.

She's definitely a queen.

She might be winning.

She's going to win a culture award.

Oh, my God.

But it's a lot of fun.

And we are the ambassadors of Celestial Park.

That's right.

It's our official title now.

I heard it was also like the Hubland's pretty chill.

It's very chill.

Yeah.

And so it's like, if you're overstimulated, maybe you go to Celestial Park or whatever.

It feels like Epcot in that way.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I was just at Epcot for the Flower Garden Festival.

It's so beautiful.

It's so beautiful.

It felt like the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens with Guardians of Galaxy.

I know.

The thing that I was most gagged by were those bonsai trees.

Yes.

The bonsai trees.

The 700-year-old bonsai trees that are just out there.

It's crazy.

Oh, my God.

And then, of course, I love to go for food and wine.

Yes.

I'll just go in there by myself and knock down some apps.

There you go.

Literally.

Oh my God.

They were in technical rehearsal when we did it.

So I could tell there was like some fog effects and some stuff turned off.

Okay.

They're going to figure it out.

I'm excited.

Does Nuness kind of like have this like counter force to it where it's like it makes you nostalgic?

Because now because going to Epic made me want to like go to Universal and just go on the old rides or just go to Disney and go on like the classic rides too.

And I'm just like, oh, this kind of opens it up to like like everything for me where I'm like, I want to do it all.

Yeah.

Honestly, part of, you know, not to with Marsha's, like part of when drag became so pop culture, I was so interested in the origins.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, um, I don't know if you're familiar with the Angels of Light, but they came out of the cockettes and the bay, glitter beards.

Like so many of the looks that we're seeing these days came from like Marsha, Angels of Light, and also the hot peaches, right?

These like early 60s, 70s performers.

And so to me, I'm always about like that nostalgia.

I'm a cancer.

So like the nostalgia of it all.

But yeah, I fall into that.

I went to Islands of Adventure for the first time when I was 16 in 2000 and it blew my mind.

There was like the dueling dragon and all of that.

And then I went,

I hadn't gone back for so many years and I wasn't sure like, how's it going?

It's going to feel comfortable.

Is it going to feel safe?

And the thing that I really was paying attention was like, I remember when this, when I was this old and I was blown away and now it's like

evolved into this other beautiful thing that's capturing my imagination.

So I'm kind of like in between that nostalgia and the wow type

evolution of it all.

And like I think I went to like a La Mama show

like 10 years ago or something.

And like I think you like shed light on like the way that like all these different theater communities were intertwined together, especially in the 70s.

Yeah.

Or especially when Marcia was performing in them.

So like, was it, was Hot Peaches and Angels of Light, was that coming from like Theater for the New City?

No, like, like break it down for me.

Yeah, so okay.

So Marcia performed at Theater of the New City with the Angels of Light.

So like by the Jane Hotel right now.

So and also La Mama and all of these really beautiful places.

The hibiscus came out of the Cockettes and Angel Jack.

And so they really created something that had never been seen before, right?

Their performances included like the Enchanted Miracle where a big storybook was on stage and for each new scene, the page would be turned.

It was this like, you know, technology, right?

This immersive experience that the audience was really getting into.

And Marcia did this really great thing of direct address with the audience.

So they just let her riff.

They just let her

riff because she was so good.

She'd be like, hello, Sylvia, you know, and there's this beautiful recording of Sylvia Rivera, who I think a lot of times we just think of as an activist.

Sure.

But she's talking about seeing Marsha on stage dressed as a queen from a faraway land and like going after this person who stole her lover and is just screaming at the top of the lungs, at the top of her lungs.

And the audience is growing and getting more and more ecstatic.

And Marsha was plugging in the light for so many people in that moment.

So I think that was that early kind of drag performance work was plugging in the light for the audience that was growing.

Yeah.

I love that you speak in this, in this metaphor.

And I

love that.

That's such a great model for like

anyone would be so lucky to create a space where people go to plug, to plug in.

Exactly.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

And I think that's what culture at its best does.

And that's what your podcast does.

Like you're both doing it all the time.

I was watching episodes of game show.

You know what I mean?

Like,

and you know, like you've been, like, we're all doing it, right?

Like, I think that's what we're aspiring to do is like create spaces, whether it's a podcast or a game show or SNL or a film where we're an art, we're able to plug in and we're able to leave transformed.

We're able to go from black and white to technicolor.

We're able to like go through the portal and experience something incredibly immersive and then be like, I can do that.

I can do that.

And it doesn't have to stay right here.

I can do it everywhere.

One of my favorite lines from any piece of art I've seen or heard over the past couple of years is there's this play, The Hills of California, that's on Broadway now.

And there's this beautiful part.

where she goes over to the piano, the character, and she says, you know, talking about music and talking about song.

She's like, a song is just a place to live for three minutes.

Yeah.

And I was just like, that's why music is my escape.

And that connected to everything from when I was younger about that thing of like walking into this area where all of a sudden it was something else.

It was just like, I think that that is another reason why a lot of queer people gravitate towards those theme parks.

That's exactly what I mean.

Because there is a big gay community because I think.

What I was saying earlier was I didn't realize it, but I needed a place to be that wasn't my own head or my own reality because there was this thing encroaching, which was, you don't belong here.

You don't belong here.

You don't belong here.

And suddenly it didn't matter what the rules were in a world that's fake and immersive.

That's exactly.

And so a song is a place to live for three minutes.

It's like, when I feel like I want to escape whatever it is, I will put on a song that elicits a certain emotion because in that emotion, it's also changing the reality.

That's exactly right.

And you're moving from sometimes a place of despair to a place of anger, to a place of like, you know, optimism to a place of hope and then to a place of like positive expectation and knowing that things are going to be okay.

And that's the song's power.

Yes.

Or even if it's not escaping,

I'm angry and I want to feel this at 15 out of 10.

Exactly.

You know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

On Kinkas Karma by Chapel Watts.

That's right.

I hate my ex-boyfriend.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's like.

I need to sob because I'm grieving.

That's right.

I want a party.

So I'll listen to this party song.

I want to feel like I, you know what I'm saying?

Because it's like, it's turning up the volume.

That's exactly right.

That emotion.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Wow.

I am curious to know, like,

are you done with New York for good or are you like...

Totally.

So I moved to Miami because my partner is an environmental lawyer and she is, that's where she's working.

And there's, so I moved after 22 years.

I was saying, like, I hadn't left New York for longer than three weeks.

You're a double life.

You did your time.

You know, that's what I'm asking.

Yeah.

um i like the time i left the longest was i was working for d rees who directed um pariah and bessie and mudbound and i was her assistant and

it was a great film so for mudbound and you know so i was in louisiana and that was a really clarifying experience and and i came back to new york like you know ready to direct happy birthday marsha part two and i think i'm having a similar powerful experience where I'm so grateful for the artists and the organizers and the friends in Miami who are really received me so warmly.

There's so much happening in that city that people are organizing around and are affected by.

And also, I don't know, I do feel this is my home.

Like my mom lives here and my siblings.

And so, you know, this is home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like you live at a power base.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

It's, but I live in this beautiful neighborhood of Miami called Coconut Grove.

It's like a historically Bohemian community.

Yeah.

And it's so lush.

And I feel it in my body, like how much it makes sense.

And there's like hundreds of peacocks walking around my neighborhood and my cat is so happy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, honestly, sometimes I feel like you just get used to a certain pace of life that you realize it's unreasonable once you go somewhere else and just allow yourself to.

It's like,

I needed to leave New York when I did.

Yeah.

And I was, I just, It's just really interesting because I came back and what I've been saying to people that are like, oh, why did you come back?

It's like, because the things you didn't like or don't like about New York are all kinds of things you can change.

Yes.

Like they're all individual.

It's like everywhere else, it's like, you're going to have to deal with what it is.

But New York is a lot more multifaceted.

You have much, many more experiences there and many kinds of lifestyles there than I think I thought.

Totally.

And so I think I needed to go away and have my shoulders drop to come here and understand how to drop them in New York City.

You know, that's because

you're on guard all the time and ready to go all the time and like, you know, got your armor on and, you know, ready to go.

But then you can come back and be like, now that I've like, as an adult, lived somewhere else, I can be an actual adult.

That's right.

Yeah.

No, it's that transition moment so necessary.

Yeah, truly.

Yeah.

I did feel in reading the book, though, like everything about my life in New York, it's like you end, you end with a thank you.

You say thank you, Marsha.

And the whole time, even before I got to the ending, I was just like, I owe everything to this one person who has been in like my consciousness for as long as I've like read up on queer history, but also like, I cannot even begin to understand like all the material things about my life that like wouldn't be possible without her.

Yeah, no, that's why I ended with thank you, Marcia.

It felt like, you know, I started learning about Marsha over 20 years ago and it's just felt like a gift.

So to know her in a particular kind of like spiritual sense and to get close to the people who I named who are still around here right now in a kind of physical sense.

And so that's the spirit that I hoped to offer through the book.

Yes.

It's like, I received this gift.

I would love to share this gift with everyone and take it how you will.

But for me, it just, it felt really important to move through that spirit of generosity.

You've imparted that in such a huge way.

And like, just down to like my own individual history.

I know, and like Matt's too, of like, oh my God, like that Downstain,

was it a sit-in or what would you call it?

Yeah.

So they, um, so Marshall and Sylvia.

The dining hall is called Downstein.

Exactly.

Yeah.

They occupied, they had an occupation in 1970, September of Weinstein Hall.

They took it over, right?

They were street queens living in Washington Square Park and they were like, NYU, New York University is refusing to have gay dance parties in the heart of this.

you know, haven for queer and trans people.

That's not okay.

We're going to take it over.

And it was this really beautiful moment where they were modeling what they dreamed up in those hourly hotels.

They dreamed up a sense of connection and community.

Marcia was making food.

They were, you know, kind of modeling after the Black Panther party too, where everyone was invited to eat.

And so they were just like creating the world that they wanted to live in.

Sometimes we call that prefiguring the world that we want, right?

And they were doing that kind of prefiguration.

Yeah.

And they were in the basement.

They were in the basement.

Which is where the buffet dining hall was.

When we went there, it was where you would go to like get your hangover omelette.

Oh my god, I love that.

And like the fact that like yes, that's where they were living.

It all like, it all like started like a year after Stonewall.

This is where like, this was like the, the extension, the continuation that was happening, like where like I was like eating my, my home fries.

That's exactly right.

40 years later, everybody's bitching about the craft of writing.

Really?

You know what I mean?

But we wouldn't have gone down.

Like, NYU probably, like, I think you were doing writing at the time, like, also wasn't really even admitting a lot of queer students.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's like, we're, and like, we're there.

We're there because of them.

Yeah.

And also they were doing these incredible, like, they were dreaming about things in, in the basement of NYU where y'all were hung over

about like access to gender affirming care, right?

They were literally talking about access to medical care.

They were talking about also for things that didn't directly affect them for, you know, cis women to have daycare so that they could attend college, for college to be free for, you know, housing.

It was really important for them to dream up because they knew that you two would come along and be the beneficiaries of the dream and you wouldn't need to necessarily do the same thing.

I think you write about this in the book where it's like their transness was the thing that like was able to confer like possibility onto like a huge, a mass group of people.

Like

the world.

Exactly.

The literal world.

The literal world.

I learned so much reading this.

You did such a good job.

I'm reading it.

I mean, engaging in it.

This space should be on the dollar.

First of all, I want to live in that world.

It's just amazing.

And you did such incredible work.

And I have to imagine that this was not easy and must take years.

Well, I was writing for five years.

And then before that, it was like 15 years of research.

But it felt like a gift.

Like, it honestly felt every time I learned something new or I met someone who was grumpy and lived, you know, like and who knew Marcia, but ended the conversation really joyful.

All of it, it just felt like a gift.

And all of that is exactly what we were talking about earlier with like, you know, the lack of quote-unquote correct recollection.

It's like people are all the things.

Exactly.

And that is, that is what makes her

not just, you know, someone who's a source on Stonewall and that area and that time, but she is that time.

And that it is, it is all those things.

And so we're going to do I don't think so, honey, but

May 20th.

May 20th.

Marcia.

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Okay, I have something for I don't think so, honey, and it involves my sister.

Okay.

You.

All right.

This is, oh, me.

All right.

This is I don't think so many.

This is our one-minute segment in which we take one minute to rage, radiant against

something in the culture.

Matt Rogers has something.

This is Matt Rogers.

I don't think Sony's time starts now.

I don't think so, honey.

Why haven't they got my girl Bo and Yang at the Met Gala?

Oh, my boy should have been at.

No, I want the invitation in the mail for next year already.

You would have torn up a suit.

You tailored a Michael Fisher at MJF.

Scroll through.

Look at my girl slaying every look.

You know he's a fashion icon.

I don't know.

What was that photo shoot you did with the Pikachu backpack?

Oh, that was on Brian McGinley for New Yorker.

That was an award-winning photo shoot with award-winning styling and an award-winning

subject.

Why isn't my girl at the Med Gala?

I want to see my girl walking up the steps.

I want to see him ignoring the press.

I want to see him in a hat.

I want to see him doing daring fashion.

And here's the thing: if Boeing Neg's not invited, I'm never getting invited.

And I want to go to the Met Gala.

I don't understand this makes my chances of being invited much less.

Because I'm dragging you.

And I went for it.

I'll tell you his address.

It's.

And that's

funny.

Thank you, Matt.

Beautiful.

Well, listen.

I kind of prefer just watching from home.

Yeah, but you know what?

Just go to the carpet.

Get the phone out on the side.

Don't get in trouble like Megan Megan Thee Stallion did.

I've seen Ocean Zade.

I know

what's going on inside.

You know what I mean?

That is so.

I don't need to go.

I don't need to go to the Metcalo.

I've seen Ocean Zade.

That's a local culture number 60.

I don't need to go to go to the Metcalo.

I've seen Ocean Zade.

Literally.

It's shocking.

I thought you had.

I just said, no, no, I hadn't, but doesn't it just make sense?

I feel like this would get

a different menu because it was all about suiting.

I mean, what did you think of the Metcalo?

I thought it was fab.

Yeah, it was really a great year.

Danielson was a great

thing.

No, I think that

to quote Marsha, it's like the party is wherever she goes.

You're right.

So the party was at your address last night.

The party was at, was at my address.

I had people over.

I invited you over.

How many people did you have ordered?

It was just four of us.

It was just me, Josh,

and Thomas.

Oh, okay.

But I was in the weeds moving again.

Like, you know how it is.

We talked about it.

Another time we'll hang out.

Okay, Bo and Yang, do you have an I don't think so, honey?

I have an I don't think so, honey.

I love to hear it.

Okay, this is Bo and Yang's.

I don't think so, honey.

His time starts now.

I don't think so, honey.

Make Times Square dirty, filthy, corny again.

Yes.

Times Square, Times Square, Blue.

This is why Times Square is so important in the city.

You need cross-class interaction in every great city.

That is how you engender solidarity.

That is how you get people to work together to solve problems.

We can't be silent in our neighborhoods now.

And I especially don't think so, honey.

Another neighborhood, the West Village, being overtaken by these girlies who are like just doing their silly little TikToks.

Nothing wrong with that.

It's just, it cannot be all the tone of that neighborhood anymore.

That is a rich neighborhood in terms of history and wealth, let's say, but it's just, we need our neighborhoods to retain some of their authenticity.

Times Square being all like Eminem Store McDonald's is funny and ironic.

And I think there's a huge opportunity to make those spaces fun and crazy and absurd.

Like, let's make those like weird, sexy, horny places.

You know what I mean?

I catch me cruising at the

olive garden at the madame tussau's and that's one minute you know what i mean like wouldn't it be fun to just like make times square a little bit like filthier again luxury bring back the carnot theater i just want to just make that fun because we we used to work here all the time yeah um or down there like by the drama bookshop and it was like i can i can see the bones of when this was this had like character to it yes you can still feel it but it's like but otherwise it's like sanitized and i'm like oh but like it's still there it's still there let's like yeah

yeah you know you can still smell the cum on the wall

rose

literally

um there you go all right so it's your turn it's your turn okay do you have something i have a little bit of a something okay let's let's blow it out to a lot of bit of a something okay help me you know feel free to okay great

all right okay so this is tourmaline's i don't think so honey her time starts now okay i don't think so honey to this small time dreaming we are literally in a a moment as the empire is collapsing and our economy is dusted dusting that like we're all saying it's time to go after your dreams there is no point carving out a small space on a sinking ship just for our survival now is a time to dream as big as the problems are this is how we transform the world yeah yay

said it in 30 30 because

she's a fucking writer she's a poetess said it in less words and more poignantly poignantly than we could ever.

Yeah, I mean, something about you saying like big problems call for inspire big solutions, like that's tea.

I really feel that way.

You know, like I really, really feel that way.

And this is the, this is the actual time.

Exactly.

And you can feel it, right?

Like we can feel this thing not working.

It is so clear that this moment is illuminating how it's not lasting.

Yeah.

So why not?

Like, why not be inspired to think of a dream that's a little bit bigger than the empire that's crumbling around it?

Totally.

Like, what is there to lose?

What is there to lose?

Yeah, absolutely.

Literally nothing.

I mean,

you've really done something here.

I mean, this is Marsha, The Joy and Defiance of Marshall P.

Johnson.

It is out May 20th, and you would enrich yourself to read it.

You don't have to be queer.

You don't have to be a New Yorker.

You don't have to be someone that's interested in history.

You can be all those things and more.

And you would get so much out of this.

It's beautiful work.

And we thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

It really means a lot.

And it means a lot that you read and engaged the book and shared so much about how it affected you and your own stories.

And I'm just thinking about Marcia and you in the basement of Weinstein Hall, time traveling with the two drunk, you know, up-and-coming girlies.

When time is a flat circle, we did make it.

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Congratulations be in every episode of the song.

We end every episode with the song.

Don't you know that?

Heard it through the great vine.

Longer would you be mine.

Well, you know, I'm realizing now, isn't that the melody?

This is like the one Marvin gay song.

I don't know.

I mean, you know, I used to know it because I used to do it it on American Idol all the time.

That's my little white gay.

It always is some Clay Aiken singing it.

Bye.

So good.

That was so much fun.

Lost Culture East.

This is the production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeartRadio Podcasts.

Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Executive produced by Anna Hosnier and produced by Becca Ramos.

Edited and mixed by Doug Baim and Minik Labord.

And our music is by Henry Kabirski.

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This is an iHeart podcast.