Strange Customs: An Interview with Sasha Sagan

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They are an unignored constituency. And they really do.
Where is Kamala on this? Thank you, our wonderful, intrepid Patreon listeners. I'm Henry Zebrowski.
I'm sitting here with Ed Larson. Hello.
And we have a very special guest today. Someone, again, we talked right before.
Very bright. Very smart.
I don't know what we're going to do with this person oh you're just scared that she's gonna tell you aliens aren't real i am because my my little soul can't handle it uh but this is somebody i really like we're so excited to have uh the author of for small creatures such as we and the host of the podcast strange customs i'm really excited because it's really cool this is one of those things it's a part of the world i'm super fascinated about like why do we do what we do uh we have author creative mind podcast host sasha sagan hello it's so nice to be with you both thanks for that hilarious and charming introduction it's we're trying we are trying obviously also i don't want to always be like famous daughter but you know like you're the famous daughter of someone is the saddest you know i mean but it's not not when it's like this i mean well thank you i do i mean a lot of my work and definitely my worldview is based on my parents work so i feel like it like it's part of my identity. Oh, yeah.
Because what do you can what can you do? Because like Carl Sagan is your father. If I followed my father's work, I'd be in prison.
Yeah, exactly. If I followed my father's work, I'd be drunk at hogs and heifers right now.
Well, you're both doing great. We're doing our best.
So it's like, can I actually we'll just start with that. Like as the daughter of Carl Sagan, like, does it start like, do people immediately assume, obviously I know you're a genius because I was reading your essays and you're very smart.
Way too kind. But you're very smart.
But it's the idea of like, like people, when they roll up, are they like nervous or are they like, like, or is it all like, what's daddy like? What was daddy like or is it all like because you want to find the heart of the man you sound like you know this wonderful benevolent it's like yeah yeah like a sweet man like so what's it like having to walk around with it is it a burden or a or a wonderful treasure oh it's a wonderful treasure i mean i feel so lucky i mean. I mean, both my parents, my mom, Andrea, and my dad collaborated on books and essays on the original Cosmos series in the 80s, which my mom has written and produced and directed the new version of with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
I didn't even know that. I had no idea like how fully involved she was in the fact that like hunting for it for years trying to get the cosmos remake get wow yes absolutely no she's amazing and um both my parents i mean you know in terms of like is it a burden it's it's really not i feel so lucky i lost um you know my dad was amazing and he was a really fun great dad and i lost him when was 14.
And so when I meet people who have questions about him or read his work, like, you know, started reading his work a couple years ago when, or even weren't even born in 1996, I feel this immense like joy and gratitude that in this way, in this totally secular real way he is living on. And no, I love talking about it.
And my book is, you know, partly about growing up in that household and growing up with the worldview of, you know, that science is the pathway to not just understanding and like, not just to like reality, but to awe and wonder and joy and that spine tingling feeling that we are a part of something larger than ourselves.

So how does the government weather machine work then?

Honestly, let's get down to brass tacks.

I'm so glad you asked.

You're a science person.

Why did Biden send hurricanes to Florida? Why would he do such a thing? No, I feel like, I mean, I feel like the it's interesting because I think there is this

correlation between, you know, the conspiracy theories and so much of the history of religion,

because we are so uncomfortable not knowing it is torture for us. The future is so unrelenting with its, you know, our inability to predict it.
It's miserable. And I mean, right now, as we are, I don't know when this is going to air, but as we are in the lead up to the election, I mean, it's like.
What's happening? What's going on right now? Oh, God, you're going to want to have a seat because it's right now. But I think that like just this discomfort with not knowing the answer to small and deep, profound questions.
We humans, you know, we fill stuff in because even if it's something bad, even if it's something disturbing, we somehow are more comfortable with that than just the open

space of a question. It drives me crazy because you believe in the Bible and God's the ultimate weather machine.
He flooded the earth, you know, apparently, you know, it destroyed everybody and they worship God. So if they believe that Biden flooded Florida, shouldn't they worship him? It's a long story, Andy.

It's a web of meteorology. But I kind of feel like it's why we're at where we're at right now in terms of the temperament of the country is that we track when we travel in the world of conspiracy theory all the time.
And it is funny because it is as much of a faith as anything else, because you kind of believe that like a faith in the deep state means that you believe that there's a daddy somewhere making sure that there's a plan. Exactly.
And I think that if you're raised with a worldview, that there is someone, a man in charge who makes decisions that you cannot possibly understand. And it seems like it's a bad thing, but maybe there's a good reason and you're not allowed to ask any questions and you just have to agree.
It sets you up for all kinds of other ideologies. Yes.
Now, do you find that that's like what led you towards investigating the customs of humans? Yes. Well, I think it's a combination of two things.
Like what's a custom? Like, what do you mean by like a, like, oh wait, like, what do you call it? Like, so like if you were to take like, so part of the reason I'm interested in this is because when I was a kid, my dad would like love to do these thought experiments about like, how would I, like, if I were to meet someone from from, you know, another planet, how would I explain what we were doing and why we were doing it? And it was, and it was great because also when you're a child, you are kind of like, you know, you're new on earth and you're still getting a hang of all these norms. And it's very easy once you become an adult to be very blasé about, well, that's just the way we do things.
But when you're a child, you're like, well, why do we say something after someone sneezes, but not after they burp? Or, you know, like, why, like, you know, it seems there's so, and then parents sometimes get very annoyed with the long list of why questions, because then they have to ask themselves these. And so I loved always looking at the things we do from the outside.

And so that's sort of the impetus for the Strange Customs podcast. Like if you were an anthropologist from somewhere else, how would you explain, you know, marriage, anything from like marriage and, you know, rituals around birth to like April Fool's Day or, you know, I mean, Halloween is a perfect example.
I think it's that. And I'm also really interested in customs and traditions because as a non-religious person, I still want to mark time and process change.
And I still, you know, want to grieve when someone dies and I got married and had a wedding. And like when the seasons change, I want to have a celebration, but I don't have the infrastructure of religion.
So how do we do that? I think there's a distinct difference between ritual and spirituality when it comes to our species. Right.
Do you think it's connected? Do you think there's like we as a primate, we must have rituals? No, I don't think we must, but I think that it gives us sometimes, depending on the ritual, it's either the illusion of control, if it's a ritual that we believe changes something, makes something happen, or it's about processing change, right? Like, someone's alive, and then they are not alive. The thing, whatever this is, goes away.
How do we make sense of that? How do we process this change? Or if you think about all the coming of age rituals around the world, right? Someone is a child and then like, oh, all these chemicals come in and their voice changes and there's hair and they're in a weird mood and everything's different suddenly. And then they're an adult.
And like that threshold, we have to acknowledge that. And I think that, you know, when we sort of look at so many rituals around the world, when you peel back the first layer of like the local set design and costumes and script, we are almost always celebrating the same things.
And they are so often scientific phenomenon, like puberty is like a biological change, right? The changing of the seasons has to do with the biology of the plants and it has to do with the axial tilts of the earth, right? And all these holidays that fall around the solstices and equinoxes, it's because we're all, you know, we sometimes make up a different backstory, but we're all trying to process the same patterns and make sense of them and find the beauty in them and alleviate our fears. That's so fascinating.
Do you think it would be better for young men to be left in the middle of the woods to try to come back instead of getting Jordan Peterson? I mean, if those are the only two options. How about we take Jordan Peterson and leave him in the middle of the woods? If he comes back, then we have to keep him.
Now, I honestly, so my father was Jewish. My mother is Catholic.
So I'm an atheist. And but I still love Christmas.
I think Christmas is amazing. i love celebrating i got a tree but like sitting there and worshiping jesus is insane to me uh so it's and it's boring yeah it's just i mean in general i don't like people's birthday you know and so it's and it's not even It's really his birthday.
It's just co-opted from the winter solstice Roman stuff.

Exactly. people's birthday you know and so it's and it's not even really his birthday it's just co-opted from the winter solstice roman stuff exactly but um so what do you do around the holidays i know you were you know if you were right if you had to like identify as a religion which i'm pretty secular jewish correct yes that's right yes i mean my ancestors when i do a dna test it's like a hundred i I think they can only say like 99.9%, but it's like Ashkenazi Jew.
And I'm like, I know. Do you celebrate Hanukkah? Like, what do you do as, you know, someone who doesn't really have faith? I do everything.
So we do Hanukkah as a kind of like historical reenactment, you know, like we do it in this way to say to our children, like this is what your ancestors were doing for thousands of years and see this thematic through line about the light in the darkness, the days are short in the Northern hemisphere. And so we do this.
And then my husband's family, my husband's also secular, but his family is historically Christian. And, you know, my mother-in-law does a lot of fun Christmas stuff and we do that stuff too.
And again, in the context of like, this is a way to honor, to honor our ancestors. And, you know, also because Christmas is so, I mean, it's so ubiquitous.
It's like you have to really make a choice to not celebrate it, you know? Especially with kids. It's hard.
It's hard to be like, we don't celebrate Christmas. Well, they have to deal with it more school, too.
Yeah, totally. And I mean, it's not like I mean, it wouldn't be fair.
It's just because, you know, my husband did grow up with Christmas. So it's like if I'm allowed to do my secular Hanukkah thing, we we got to do that too.
And then the other thing that we do is the winter solstice. And it's not in like a witchy way, although I have a lot of, you know, no shade about that, but in a way of saying tomorrow, no matter what, the days are going to start getting longer again.
And right now it gets dark very early and that is unpleasant, but because of the axial tilt of the earth and the way it goes around the sun tomorrow, I promise you little by little, we will have more sunlight and eventually return to summer. And we do like, you know, a dinner and we celebrate that too.
And I just think all the cultural stuff I love, you know, but I think getting to the part that is irrefutable and real and good that like the days are going to start getting longer. And that's amazing is worth celebrating.
So you don't do the extended Santa lie. No, we do not do any Santa.
I should say we do like, we do gifts on Christmas usually with my husband's family. Um, but we do not do any santa i should say we do like a we do gifts on christmas usually with my husband's family um but we do not from jesus christ santa drives me crazy no middle man no middle man straight from god yes like santa claus is just like putting the thought into all children that their parents are liars but i also love the lie there's a part of me that wants to continue the lie.
I love the idea of going in and... Fuck that! I bought the gifts! You know, like, this is daddy's money! You know, like, Santa didn't fucking go out and go onto the computer and find the Hot Wheels tracks? I just love fooling children.
Sorry, we're yelling. You can do that anytime right here.
No, I feel, so on Strange Persons,

we did an episode about Santa

and it's called The Conspiracy

and it's with Nicole Richie actually.

It was really funny.

And, you know, this idea that like,

it is like, I mean, don't,

that maybe also sets children up

to believe in conspiracies

because it is a, I mean,

the idea that NORAD is like in on this lie is incredible. Tax dollars are spent.
I mean, it's amazing how much effort we all collectively put in. And it's like almost this, like one of the most taboo things is to like blow that up for children.
And like, don't worry, I don't go around being like, you know, that's bullshit. Like when I pick my daughter up from second grade, don't worry.
Miss Sagan, we're actually going to have to ask you to please stop disseminating the power of pure information to the children. Okay.
She's going to have to start taking the bus home. If you insist on showing up at pick up.
So what do you tell her? What do you, do you say that Santa isn't real, but keep the lie going for your classmates? No, I say that everyone eventually finds out. I'm not going to ever lie to you, but it's not for us to tell other children because their parents have a plan for when they're going to find out.
And, you know, what's funny, though, is there's another fictional character who I did kind of. I mean, luckily's really skeptical so it's now like this running joke open secret but I don't feel as strongly about like the tooth fairy as they do about Santa why is that why is the tooth fairy fine it feels like the tooth fairy is even more ubiquitous than Santa it's interesting because it it's like, so the scholar that we interviewed about this on my podcast was saying that one of the big differences is everybody can picture Santa, but the tooth fairy is like very open to interpretation and it's like not like a singular creature that like everybody agrees on.
So it's sort more it doesn't feel like this lie it just feels like this like amorphous like joke and it's also not like the magic is ruined when you find out that your mother put two dollars under your pillow you know what i mean it's just like just give me the money up front well that's it was also my introduction to money to be honest with with you. It was the first time I made money.
It was like a job, yeah. Yes.
And it's the, I mean, if you want to talk about strange customs, it is the weirdest thing ever. I mean, imagine if it was not, like if we hadn't all grown up with it and you were reading in like an anthropology textbook about some distant tribe or island somewhere where when the children come of age and their teeth start falling out of their mouths they put it under their pillow and then like a mystical like spirit from the forest with wings comes and takes part of their body that has fallen out and leaves them so like you know leaves know, leaves them the...
Money. The currency.
Yeah, the currency. The local currency.
Who's the tooth fairy selling these teeth to? I mean, I don't know. Why does she need them? No one just spends money.
They're either looking for votes or they're looking for something else. They got something on you now.
She's gonna frame these children for crimes later, leaving their DNA at the scene i don't know my god the tooth fairy is jeffrey epstein i was just thinking kaya hasley asked though is it more the tooth fairy for some reason is it more here in america or is it across the globe i don't think it's i mean i have to do some research to. We haven't done a full Tooth Fairy episode yet, but that is something I really want to do.
But no, I think it's definitely Western culture. I don't think it's global.
I'm going to look into it. This is a good question.
Yeah, I don't know if necessarily everybody's paying off their kids. Fly from your grave.
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Now, we've talked about Christmas and religion, and I really want to get your opinion on the afterlife. Your father famously said, I don't want to believe.
I want to know. And, and so there is no, there is nothing to me.
Like my dad died twice. He, you know, the first time he died, he had no idea that anything ever happened.
And he's like, there's nothing. Uh, and the second time, you know, it was very uneventful.
Yeah. It was the, it was the last time he died.
It was the last time he died. So it's in a lot of people really, really want to believe in a life after death.
Me personally, it makes no sense to me. Um, but yet I am on a, I'm on a very popular podcast.
We talk about paranormal activity and ghosts a lot and stuff like that. And also my family is very spiritual.
So I'm just kind of wondering where your opinion lies on a life after death, a purgatory, the existence of ghosts. Like, I know there's 10 questions in there, but.
You could just wrap that up pretty good. That'd be great.
You could take your belief system and sort of kind of wrap that up. Oh, no.
This is, like, my favorite thing to talk about. I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, it's 10 questions, but it's really one question. And so my perspective is in order to believe for me to believe something, I need evidence.
I need real evidence. And so to say, when people say, do you believe in something? This is like, the implication is like, is it what you like your best guest, your hope river.
And my position is I, I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't believe in anything, you know, in the air quotes, like paranormal, because I, without evidence, how can we possibly know what is just our hopes and our wishes and our confirmation bias or our fears and what is real? And I mean, that is to say also there are, you know, we are getting more information.
That's the magic of science. But if any of this were real and there comes a day where it is proven true, it will be supported by some evidence.
It will be, it will stand up to scrutiny, right? There are lots of things we didn't understand in human history that now we understand. I mean, if you said like a few, you know, millennia ago, like, I believe that the moon controls the ocean, controls the tides, right? That could be like something like a person would say, yeah, totally a what a witch would say a hundred percent.
But then once you get gravity and like Newton, like kind of works out how this could work, it becomes real. And what I think is sort of the key is that can we still hold on to like the awe and enthusiasm and the sense of like, oh my God, holy shit, this is amazing and stunning and exhilarating and spine tingling about the stuff that we have evidence for that is real.
Yes. And hold out, just hold an open space for the stuff that could just be wishful thinking or fears or hopes or ancient rumors.
And I just think, you know, like the example I always give is there is a secret code in your blood that connects you to your ancestors that can solve mysteries that we did not know about like a few decades ago, you know, 60, 70 years ago. And that it can like is like the key to answering so many questions, reuniting lost family members, figuring out like all these, you know, history.
And like if, by the time you're doing like your allele worksheets in middle school, DNA doesn't seem like this magical, mystical, thrilling thing, but I think it is. And so whatever things that we currently categorize as paranormal, you know, we have to just like hold an empty space until there's evidence because we humans are so inclined to fall into the traps of our own belief systems.
And I do believe everything can eventually be chased down and charted. But I do think partially it's because the would you say even the bandwidth for what you'd consider evidence also kind of expands with science and technology and understanding? Sure.
And like the thing that my parents always told me that's so magnificent about science is it has this error correcting mechanism, right? You're a better scientist if you prove that the conventional wisdom is wrong, if you can really prove it, like if you really it can really stand up to scrutiny and sometimes we believe things for centuries and then they end up being disproven but like this system is our best bet because we're not that good at figuring out what's real and what's not historically do you think that there's a standardized version of science across the universe itself? Like the universe, like beyond? Like, let's say we go to another place, right? Like, because I'm certain, does this extend to like alien life? Like the idea that there's probably some form, right? I mean, I don't know. We don't have the evidence right so the idea of a of an alien race living on another planet like live with a society that can think we just that's just kind of conjecture technically but where do you stand on it you asked me about like when like people would come like come up to me and like when i was a kid and people would come up to my dad, I mean, he would get in airports and restaurants.
Like, Dr. Sagan, great to meet you.
Like, do you believe in aliens? Aliens, where are they at? Yeah, exactly. I mean, and people really wanted to know.
And they were genuinely, I mean, who wouldn't want to know? I mean, it was like genuine curiosity. You're a smart guy.
I'm a moron. Right.
I mean, this is like before like social media or anything. And so you're just like, oh, my goodness.
Perfect person to ask this question. And he would say, I don't know.
And they would say, oh, but what does your gut tell you? And he would say, well, I don't use my gut for this. I, you know, use my brain.

And we just don't. And he would have loved, and I can't underscore this enough, he would have loved to have lived to see some evidence that there was life elsewhere in the universe.
But he, like the quote that you just mentioned, he wanted, he didn't want to just back on his wishes and hopes. He wanted to really know.
And so I think just like holding that space open for not knowing. But your question about like, is science uniform? Yeah.
Like, do you think that if you go to another place, like, do you think that like in another solar system and another galaxy, like would physics change? Would our stuff change? Like, do, or is the belief of science that there's like there is a running theme that would hold true or is it is it possible that like things could be entirely different in another part of the universe i think things would be entirely different um but i think that if we think about like, I mean, science as like the co like nature, the way we understand nature, the way the physical laws of nature exist, it's a, it's not a set of like, it's not a list of like things to like figures and formulas. It's a method to understand and whatever we were to encounter somewhere else, surely it would be like amazingly different.
But whatever we were able to glean through evidence about what life or not life existence, inanimate existence, maybe there was, would be science. Yeah.
Cause I feel like almost in a way that's not, that's not faith. You're looking for evidence.

But almost in a way, it feels like science has this kind of, there is a

faith in the idea

that our

ideas of science will hold.

Right? Maybe?

Or you're testing it.

I disagree. Because it's the fact

that we're like, the goal is to constantly test it. And then when there's new information change accordingly is kind of to me, I mean, sometimes faith gets used.
Yes. Like sometimes faith gets used as like optimism or like pause, like having a good attitude.
And like, I'm all for that. You know what I mean? If it's like, oh, things look terrible.
And it's like, have some faith. I mean, like it could work out.
That would be great. You know what i mean if it's like oh things look terrible and it's like have some faith i mean like it could work out that would be great you know what i mean like that is a different thing than the idea that no matter what you're presented with no matter what evidence is brought your way you will not waver that is a different thing and i feel like that is antith science.
Yeah. It's like a quest for truth and knowledge kind of.

And it would change depending on what you were testing, you know, and what you learn.

Yeah. What you what is true on Earth wouldn't be true on Ramulon or whatever place doesn't exist, you know.

So unless we do then find out that all science has like a there's like a bottom law, like there's something that we're all connected to which is what i think is the the literally the hope we hope that it would all i feel like scientists would be how do you i'd say the term would be fucked if they ended into another section of the universe and they're like oh no it's all the fuel stopped working the stuff stopped working, we're screwed, yeah. Sure, yes, totally.
But if we could somehow, even with everything that we're used to from our planet and solar system not working, if we can somehow then glean what's different, why it's different, what the like structure of it all is, that pursuit would still be science yeah because you would have to

find discover whatever new elements are in this different place and like whatever new gases that we have no ever heard of you know exists in another place you know because it all doesn't exist in the bubble we call earth i agree and i just i just also think it's like no matter what like the, when, if we ever get to go out into the universe and get some new gases, as you say, or any of the other.

We got to get new gases.

I'm sick of these old ass gases.

That's the number one thing.

I'm brewing some of my own right now.

But I think no matter what we find, but it will just underscore how precious and rare this planet is. Yes, I agree completely.
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Excludes restaurants. So we've been talking about outer space, going to other planets, stars and whatnot.
I got to ask, just because it drives me crazy, astrology, does it hold any merit? Like, am I the same as everyone born on October 5th? Like, it's just like, you know, he's such a Libra about this.

Like, honestly,

as soon as he started talking about it, I'm like,

oh, is the Libra talking?

I have the

same problem, actually, because

first of all, happy belated birthday.

Because in Los Angeles, we have to talk

in astrology. I hope you understand

that. Oh, no, I know.

I wrote about this in my book,

and I've spent a lot of time in Los Angeles, we have to talk in astrology. Yeah.
I hope you understand that. Oh, no, I know.
I wrote about this in my book, and I've spent a lot of time in Los Angeles, and I have the same problem because people are like, what sign are you? And I'm like, I'm a Scorpio, but I don't believe that there is any evidence to support astrology. And they're like, oh, of course you would be intense about that.
Yeah, totally. Why don't you start a huge argument about it?

No, it's a huge problem, actually, that I mean, is it a huge problem in the grand scheme of things? No, but I think I so. No, astrology does not.
It's not supported by evidence. And how would that even work if it were? How would like that's the kind of the crux of all of this? Like how would what planets and stars were in what like position above your like above the hospital when you were born have any impact on your personality like how would that work you know and i think it's just yes no i'm against it my personality changes with a head injury doesn't matter matter where the stars are who knows maybe that could reveal your rising but i think that the thing that i really that that i the thing about astrology that really gets me is i think the desire for it like the hunger for it and the hunger for like a lot of stuff in that genre, like crystals and things like that is because we do have this desire to be, to feel like we're part of the universe.
And we do have that desire to feel like connected to the earth and feel that like, and I think especially if people are not religious at, um, there is that hunger to feel connected to one another and to the grandeur and majesty of the universe. And I think that that is valid, but I just don't think astrology or crystals are the road there.
You're just destroying the market here. There's a lot of stuff that we got.
A lot of stuff is hinging on astrology here. It was so convincing.
They're going to close up all their little crystal shops in Los Angeles. Just start crying.
Yeah, yeah. They're burning all their tapestries, you know, throwing the incense out.

Yeah, open up just a science library instead.

So as, because I'm so fascinated by the concept of religion and why people are getting so crazy about it.

It seems like the radicalness of religion is on the rise, but also it seems like atheism or sometimes listed as just none when you have to click a box is also, I think, the third religion in the world right now. Do you think it's going to continue to rise as time goes or do you think it's going to go down? It seems to be kicking back kind of in, in a way.
Well, I do think the rise of, like, sort of normalizing a lack of religion, I do think that it can make more fanaticism, because sometimes you dig your heels in deeper when you feel like there is a threat. And I think that, you know, we, listen, even the most devout, most religious traditional person alive today is doing things very differently than their ancestors were doing a thousand years ago.
Right. Nobody is like perfectly following this ancient thing.
We are all changing and adapting and pulling things out of ancient texts that seem important and letting other things that were maybe the headline fall by the wayside and sort of just, you know, like anything, traditions, rituals, religions, they have to mutate in order to survive. And so I think change is inevitable.
And it's not so much a skill to me of like more religious or less religious necessarily. It's that it's going to change over time.
It's going to reflect the moment. What are the changes we want to make? What is the future that you want to create for the next generation, whether you're secular or religious.
And I think that if you're holding on, like white knuckle holding on to elements of a religion that divide, that belittle the people that are different, that cause violence, then you are not helping. No, you're part of the problem.
I'm going to just go out on a limb here and say, I don't like it. And most of the time, honestly, even the core of the religion that they are believing in doesn't actually reflect what they're doing.
So, you know, like, obviously, look at the Christian nation state they want to build. It is specifically like, you know, it seemed that Jesus was an easygoing guy.
You know what I mean? The whole thing, the live and let live thing, all that kind of horse shit. And you talked about nice he was.
Yes, feeding people who are hungry. Yes, taking care of the sick, all that kind of stuff.
Including people who are outcasts. Yes, that stuff doesn't seem like it's so centered.
That has not been the main headline in the Christian nationalist movement. And I have a bone to pick with them about that.
I really do. I have had it up to here with the Christian, crystal fascist nationalistic.
I'm starting to think we're not on the same page. No.
Yeah. I mean, it's a mirror, right? Religion, like anything, it's a mirror.
You want a reason to feed the poor. You want a reason to do acts of kindness, to build a hospital.
You can find it. You want a reason to feel like you're better.
Your little group is the one good group and everybody else can just suffer. Then you can find that too.
And I just think more and more it's, Well, maybe always, but I think I see a lot of it is about identity and not about theology. It is, I mean, right, people who, like, identify really strongly with a group, but maybe haven't done the reading.
You know, I think that is it. And that goes back to something very ancient and very tribal.
And, like you know, maybe there was some evolutionary advantage tons of thousands of years ago to be like, we live in a band of 20 or 30 people and we got to just survive and we can't trust anybody else. And we got each other's backs no matter what.
Right. But now our village is 8 billion people and counting.
And we got to start looking at it that way because the differences between the groups and like I said, like the set design and the script and the costume is superficial and it is totally unimportant. And that is the greatest gift of the cosmic perspective is when we get to zoom out and we're not down here seeing, you know, where the world feels really big and our, you know, the differences feel really extreme.
But when we can look at, you know, the image of the earth from space and we see that all these borders are artificial and that if anyone were to show up from anywhere else, we would be indistinguishable, you know, one group to another. And that I think that we, we have to just, you know, use this amazing gift that science has given us to see ourselves as on this lifeboat together in this vast ocean, to realize that the little things that people are willing to kill each other over are just absolutely superficial and meaningless.
Yes. I always go back to a conversation I had with a religious leader when I was a kid.
And they, not only a kid, teenager, but whatever. And I remember them saying, like, if you don't believe, then what actually keeps you from sinning? And now that I look back on it, you know morality.
But I also think that your concept of a sin is probably different than my concept of a sin because you think that I can't say the word God if I'm not saying it in the right way. Meanwhile, the rampant abuse throughout the entire fucking church system that it's like, would you guys seem to have like, like, that's cool.
Yeah. But if you have to believe in hell to not steal or beat somebody, it doesn't stop them from doing bad things, does it? Right.
But also that's such a reveal because it's saying I would like be a serial killer if I wasn't worried that somebody was watching. You know, that's the really scary thing about that argument to me is because it's like the idea of getting caught or getting in trouble or getting your like comeuppance later on is the reason you're not doing like really bad things.
And then about all the little other things that they don't like, all the little sexual infractions of better, like between consenting adults or by yourself or like all the things that they don't like, all the little sexual infractions of better, like, between consenting adults or by yourself or, like, all the things that they don't like, it's like, well, then if no one's hurt, like, or two people getting married and just because they have the same parts, you know, like, it's like, well, then we don't need, you don't need to not do that. Like, if no one's being hurt, then it's okay.
And if if someone is being hurt you should have another method another system internally that says this is bad besides being you know on um the you know cctv of the universe the lord itself yeah watching you i just do it it's just so fun i think that what you're saying is correct it's really because we the the concept of people want a group to belong to because it's scary out there. Totally.
It's scary out there and it's hard. And I think that people are willing to join a group, especially like, you know, what we're seeing in current American politics, which is this idea of like the for one side, the barrier to entry is extremely low.
All you have to do is show up

and they kind of accept you

no matter what spectrum of hatred

you bring to the fold.

Do you know what I mean?

They're kind of happy almost.

They're like,

oh, look, we got a new type of hate.

Wow, that's amazing.

Look how diverse our hate is.

I think which is truly incredible,

like honestly in a way,

of how many spectrums of hate there is

and how they can find community. Why can't we on the other side? Well, I just I mean, I think there is like I mean, I do think there is community.
And like, I think that when we can look at ourselves as belonging to the planet, I think we can, you know. And the thing that I really admire about religion, even though I'm not religious and I'm critical of it in a lot of ways is the sense of community and the sense of belonging and having a group that comes together when, you know, times are tough and, and, and celebrates when things are going well.
And I think for those of us who are not religious, like we have to build that for ourselves. And I think being in one of the best ways to get that feeling is being involved in causes that you believe in and volunteering and like, you know, social justice, doing things to make things more how you hope them to be.
And it sort of also fills that need of like, okay, this is my group. And we go with like stuff envelopes together or whatever canvas.

And I think there's something really to be said for that because we do want to feel like we're part of something, but you know, it just, it shouldn't be something that is, we're part of something that makes us superior to everybody else. Yes.
I agree with that. It was hard for me a long time because my mom was, you know, without my father for a long time.
And she would go to church all the time and give them money and stuff. I'm like, well, you're just giving them, you know, your hard earned money is driving me crazy.
But then like the entertainment in me is like, oh, that's just the price of admission for the show. Well, that's how I kind of felt too.
I was obsessed with being a priest as a little boy and it was really just because. Oh yeah.
But it was because I realized over time it was because he had guaranteed time. The priest had an hour every week where everybody had to show up and believe everything that that guy had to say.
And he could say whatever he wanted. And then eventually realized, like, oh, I could be a comedian.
Yeah. Like, I don't need this power.
You know, like I could do. And you can do it more than an hour a week and oh yeah look at me now all i do is yeah yeah and you don't have to learn latin or whatever um so that's good not unless we're trying to break into vatican city podcast market which has honestly been very difficult it is so hard to get into the papacy podcast Now.
It's mainly just one guy who's kind of controlling that. Thank you for Squarespace.
Use code BigPope90 for Squarespace. Now, I got to ask this question just because you're here and Henry's here.
Henry fancies himself a Satanist. And what does that, when you hear that, what do you think? So my understanding, and I mean, you'll have to tell me if I'm wrong, is that it is a subversive belief system.
And it is, like, I mean, I feel like one of the things that I know most about the Satanists is the ways in which they have really worked within the legal system to sort of counteract some of the Christian nationalist moves and say, oh, well, then can we go to the public school and hand out our flyers too? And sort of leading us to question the ways in which our society favors one belief system over the others. And I don't know, I heard someone say like, you know, that Satanists don't really believe in Satan.
They don't. The whole point of Satanism is that it's it is an edgelord political position.

I am a Satanist and I believe in that the idea that like you're just supposed to remind everybody like, you know, the church needs the devil. you know like that's the whole thing here there's like a whole thing here where like

there's a whole side of this story that's not being told which is this serpent gave them the ability to be wise. Like it gave humans the ability to not, because that's the idea they were living in a fantasy world and they were living in the Garden of Eden which is essentially a really nice cage and then the devil came and released them.
24 hour a day surveillance. Yeah.
And then we gave people autonomy. But then that's the problem, isn't it? And then it's been the problem ever since.
And so here we are. Here we are.
Thank you. This has been wonderful.
Sasha, you're a delight. This is wonderful.
Thank you. Same to you both.
I just enjoyed this so much.

Thank you.

Please buy the book for small creatures such as we by Sasha Sagan.

Anything you want to leave people on, anything you want, any socials.

I know you must love TikTok.

You must love social media.

I am very nearly 42 years old, so I don't think I'm allowed on TikTok. Oh, no.
We're running it. It's not good out there.
No, millennials are sadly in charge of TikTok. It's not good.
That's even worse. Okay.
No, but I am on Instagram. I'm Sasha Sagan on Instagram, and I just had the best time talking to you both.
Thank you. Thank you, and go check out the podcast Strange Customs, because it's still out, right? Yeah.
Are you still hosting it actively? No, I'm on a little break right now, but I want to come back to it. Yeah, I really enjoy doing it.
I like asking people questions about why they feel really strongly about April Fool's Day and things like that's Day. Such a Scorpio.
Can't believe it. I walked right into that one.
Thank you so much for being with us. What's poppin', listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it.
Each week, I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Want to know about the fake errors? We got them.
What about a career con man? We've got them, too. Guys that will whine and dine you and then steal all your coins.
Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien and more.
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