Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with Rachel Lindsay)

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Hey, everybody, it's John Lovin, and welcome back to Love It or Leave It Presents Bravo America.

I'm sitting down with some of my favorite personalities from reality TV because you cannot understand politics in this moment if you don't understand the dynamics of reality television.

Take a listen to how Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on Pod Save America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons.

One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show

to get attention in a body of 435 people. And the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face.

Today I'm joined by Rachel Lindsay, reality television icon, the first black bachelorette. I loved talking to Rachel.

She walks us through her journey from being someone who didn't even know much about the bachelor to not only being a contestant on the show, but becoming the bachelorette.

She also unpacks the saga with Chris Harrison and the TV interview that led to his ouster from the show. She is a magnetic and captivating person.

Sitting across from her, you understand why the producers of The Bachelor recognized that they were dealing with a star and wanted her to be part of their universe.

She was also so thoughtful and insightful about her experience being a first, being the first black bachelorette in a franchise that had been notorious for having people of color not go very far.

And she talked about how The Bachelor, for all her misgivings about it, changed her life and ultimately led to the success she's had, including Higher Learning, a podcast she hosts with Van Lathan and Morally Corrupt, a show on all things Bravo, which you should absolutely check out.

I love this conversation. I think you will too.
So here's Rachel Lindsay.

All right, Rachel. So it's 2017.

Donald Trump has just become president. Yeah.

And you are announced as the first black bachelorette in the history of the show, a casting decision that sets in motion a series of events that leads to basically a racial reckoning that changes reality television.

And you were just looking to date? Like, what was your.?

No, I knew it was more than that. Not that I thought it was going to be a racial reckoning, because

I didn't watch The Bachelor before I was on it. I actually think that's what saved me because I wasn't not like any of them look like me before, but I wasn't trying to be like anyone.

I was just like, it's myself. I'm just going to be myself.

So to go back, I was in finland on the bachelor when trump was elected so it was very unreal like i was like this is not really happening you know like even the people i remember like the finnish people were laughing at us they were like no that can't be your president it was it was this whole thing so to then leave that world and go back into the real world and they're before i left finland they said we want you to be the bachelorette and i said no

And I went back to work as an attorney. I just like wanted my normal life back.
And it was someone coming up to me saying, I hear you go far. My daughter looks like you.
She loves the show.

She'll see your, herself represented. And I thought, oh my God, I have to.
It's bigger than me. I still didn't think I would find love.
I didn't think of anything. I wasn't, it didn't hit me.

So you're a lawyer.

You're a charismatic, charming, smart,

beautiful person.

I can say that. It's just a sick.
But please keep going.

People in your life must have been like,

what the you, what the, you're a lawyer. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, why? Like, what did you think of The Bachelor before you went on The Bachelor? That it wasn't for black people.

And I actually said that in my interview and they loved it. Like, anything I was giving them, I was trying to not be on the show.
Anything I would give them, they were like, yes.

Have you talked to your job yet? Yes. And I, in my personal life, I was looking for no's.
I was like, my dad's a federal judge. I was like, my dad's going to be like, no, absolutely not.

Nobody in my inner circle watched the show. It just wasn't for us.
My dad was kind of like, I mean, yeah, maybe you go into entertainment law after this. It was, people were so positive.

The stars aligned completely. Even my boss had just gotten into the bachelor and he said, well, do they need me to talk? Do they need me on the show? Everybody, it was like they were possessed.

Everybody was like, this is for you. You have to do it.
See, that's shocking to me.

So because I decided to go on Survivor and a lot of people in my life said like, oh, don't do that.

Don't do that. You're going to make a fool of yourself.
And there there was some merit to what they were saying. But like, this isn't just a reality competition show.

This is a show that is ostensibly about

the most important choice any of us can make in our lives, which is who we want to share our lives with.

But going on The Bachelor is, I think, even different than becoming The Bachelorette.

But like, when you go on to The Bachelor, a show you didn't really know a lot about, you knew that they didn't have, that is like well known, that like black people just don't go far on this show.

Like, were you genuinely open to finding love? Was that a side quest in it? Like, what was your mentality around it? I needed an escape from my regular life.

I just remember, I had come off of a bad breakup, somebody I thought I was going to marry. And I was like, my career, I was like, I don't, I'm at that place where it's like, do you become partner?

Do you not? I just.

Law wasn't satisfying me and fulfilling me in the way that I thought it would. It never, it never fully felt natural to me.
I knew I wouldn't be a lawyer forever, but I was just, I hit a wall.

And it was kind of like, what's next? And then two of my coworkers walk in and they're like, hey, you should be on the bachelor. And I'm like, why would I do that?

And they're like, Rachel, I know you don't think it's for you, but if you do it, you will go far. It's like they could see something in me.
I'm telling you, everybody was possessed.

What a swing that is. Like, like,

why not like, hey, we think you should take up painting.

Move to Austin. Like, there's a lot of ways people kind of make changes in their life that don't involve going to Finland to be on a competition show in which you're put, so you're put in this.

So you're, you're like, the other part of this too is, and I, I felt this as somebody that's been on a reality show, which is

I love Survivor and I was excited about the adventure, but I didn't,

my identity wasn't wrapped up in what was about to happen to me.

Like, I wasn't looking to build a career of being on reality television, but you're, all of a sudden you're in this house and there's a lot of people for whom this is like the most exciting and important challenge of their life, like this defining moment.

Like, how, did you feel separate from others in that way? I thought I would. So going in, I was also the oldest person.
I was 31 when I went on the bachelor, which is crazy to think about.

So I was technically the first black and oldest bachelorette, just

at 31. Just crazy to think about.
Ancient, for sure. But exactly ancient.

But I thought that I wouldn't really be able to connect with the women because I don't, I don't mean this to sound like cocky or I'm above it, but I just was kind of like, from what I know and the way the producers producers were acting, they don't typically get people like me that come on the show.

Not because they don't try out, because their parents are against it, their friends, their work, they can't take off. Like my job paid me while I was still on there.
It's just, it's unreal.

It really is. And so is the moment I got there the first day, I was in a sorority.
So it was like riding a bike. I just hopped right in.
I was impressed with the women.

There were women that were entrepreneurs, that were nurses,

no other lawyers, but that had their, they had their own.

It wasn't quite what I thought, and I was beautifully surprised. So I was one of the girls.
And the house is surprising. So you're in that house.
I'm in that house. And

it's not very nice. What's the situation? What's it like in that? It's disgusting.

It's cold. There's no warmth to it.

It's old. I know they just renovated it, apparently.

I actually had an allergic reaction by the time it was over. My eyes were swollen the last day.
I was like, get me out of this place. I couldn't sleep there.
I don't know. It's just, I hated it.

There's, so there's three bedrooms, two bathrooms. You have the entire upstairs.
There's seven, six, and six people in a room. Bunk beds, every, you're all on top of each other.

So there's, there's, it's fun because, you know, you're with the girls and all of that, but it's at the same time, it's just, it's just a lot. It's exhausting.
Like you can't find your peace.

They're constantly pulling you for interviews. I'm waking up taking shots of fireball in the morning.
I started my, my day off every morning with a couple shots of Fireball.

Talk to me about the drinking. Oh, it's rampant.

And you're just,

you're drinking. It's a, it's a, it's a way to survive.
At least it was for me. They changed the rule after I left, though.
Because there was too much drinking?

There was an issue on Paradise where like a girl got really drunk and it turns out she like mixed, maybe mixed medication with it.

And it just became this whole thing that they had to actually stop production, do an investigation, start over. Those people were removed from the show.
And now it's two drinks every hour.

But I mean, like, think about it. Well, that's a lot of drinks too.
Yeah. Like, and you can wait till the end of the hour.
So think about it.

You have two drinks the last 10 minutes and then you just pick right back up at the top of the hour. You know, there's, there's ways to get around it.
But when I was there, there was no limit.

There were producers who were like, hey, you want to go take a shot and talk?

Wow. But I, I, I get annoyed when there are the people who are like, I, you know, like, they were feeding me drinks.
We're all adults.

Like I was fully aware that I wanted to wake up in the morning and have a drink. It just was, for me, it was like a cup of coffee.
Right. No, for sure.
It's five o'clock somewhere, I suppose. But so

all you're with this group of women that are in this strange competition. A lot of people are tipsy a lot of the time.

Is the food situation as bad as they say? Is the fridge empty? What's happening? No, they stock the fridge. So they tell you to make this master grocery list.
Everybody says what they want.

I was a little shocked that we had to make it ourselves. Now, I know this sounds bougie, but I was like,

we're living in this mansion.

You're giving us all these things because they give you like little gifts in here and there, and there's no chef. So, but it is a great bonding experience with the women.

Now, I don't cook, I entertain.

So, I provided the entertainment for the women while they were cooking. But it was, it was, it's, again, it was like a sorority house.
It was just, it was a lot of fun.

So,

you're moving through the season, you are going far, and you're doing very well.

At what point did it become clear that there was a possibility you might become the next bachelorette? I was very naive in the process.

Despite whatever educational background I come from, I was very naive. I got the first rose the first night.

And rather than taking it and saying, oh my gosh, he chose me, I was walking around a producer saying, like, throwing that rose around. Like, mind you, it's like a trophy.
It's coveted.

People, so immediately there's a target on my back. They're like, oh, that girl's going to go far.

And I'm flinging this rose around, like, which one of you producers told this man to give me the rose? Because I I was so skeptical of the process. I was like, which one of you told me to do this?

I didn't really drink the first night. Now that changed when I moved into the mansion.

But I just didn't trust the process. So it didn't become real to me.
at that point.

But the women on the show who were fans of the show, they would say to me all the time, you're going to be the next bachelorette. That girl's going to win and you're going to be the next bachelorette.

And I would get a little annoyed because I was like, well, I want to just be open. Not that I thought, oh my gosh, I found my husband.
But what if I did?

So I just wanted to be open for the entire process and I didn't want people to think that I had an ulterior motive of I came on this show to be the bachelorette. So I didn't like that talk.

But the girl said it to me all the time. Hey, don't go anywhere.
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I struggle with the love-based reality shows. I really do.

I love my Real Housewives. I love Survivor.
I love competition. But whenever I'm watching something like A Love Island or The Bachelor or Love is Blind, it feels like playing with

something

beautiful and pure in a way that even some of the most cynical shows don't. And when you say that you're open to love, like

this is not an environment in which

one, like, what could that mean in this context? Like you're open to love, but you're being plied with alcohol in this competition in which you're always being filmed.

Like, I, I, like, is that even possible? It is until you, you step into this world. They call it the bachelor bubble.
And it is, and we would always say this is like the craziest social experiment.

We would say this on the show. You're watching girls come home on dates.
They come back and you're like, oh my gosh, how was it? You're trying to live vicariously through them. What did he kiss like?

What did he say to you? It's, I'm telling you, even I was very caught up into that. It's, I knew what I signed up for, but I will say on the bachelor, I knew he was never going to pick me.

I just knew women know. I knew the girl that was going to win from the beginning.
We all did. And she won.
We could see it. Mint,

at least the bachelor's. Okay.
I'll try not to generalize here.

It was very obvious who he was into, who he would look at, who he would pull next to him on a group date, who we saw sneak off and go behind a wall or something. It's like, okay, he's super into her.

I knew we were good friends. I knew he liked being around me.
I knew we enjoyed each other's company. I liked him, but I didn't, I never really saw that he was my husband.

So that took a little bit of the pressure off. I would cry harder when the women would go home, my friends, to the point where they pulled me to the side and they were like, you got to stop.

You've got to stop. He was even like, why are you crying so hard? I'm like, I love them.
Like, that's the real love story that they don't talk about. But these are strangers.

You've been with them for a few days. It's what's going on.
What's happening here? Here's the world. Here's the losing yourself in the bachelor.

You know why? No phone, no TV. You can have books, but it's not encouraged to read all the time.
Like, you don't have to. They're not encouraged.
No, no, not encouraged. Bad television.
The Bible.

Do they have Bibles? Somebody brought a Bible on my season. I'm not sure who.
When you go to the airport, you can't read any of the magazines on the stands. You are kept in this world.

These are your only friends. This is the only man.
The producers are like gods.

Truly, that's how it feels. They're your parents.
They're godlike. And when you take all the outside influences away, it's, this is what I mean about the experiment.

It's crazy how that can mentally impact you. And I came in so skeptical.

So when I was developing real friendships, because I'm talking to the women more than I'm talking to anyone else, I was shocked at how close I became with some of these women.

And I know it's real because nine years later, I'm still really good friends with these women. I've baby showers, weddings, breakups, marriages, bachelorette parties.
I've done it all.

So there's, there's a realness to it. It's the side that you don't see.
But

what you were saying just about like the love,

I was open for whatever. I didn't go in saying, I'm going to fall in love and I'm going to find my husband.
I was like, it could happen. I'm just down for whatever.

But is that like, that's what, that's the right thing to that was me. It's the right thing to want.
Like, I get, that's exactly what you should want, like, to believe. Yeah.

But did you, is it convincing yourself? Right? Because it's hard to do this and have that not be the case. It was easy for me because of the history of people who look like me on the show.

That's why when I got the first impression rose, I said, has a black woman ever gotten this rose before? And they were like, no, never.

So it was kind of like, I remember going back to my hotel room thinking, is this real? Is it not? Or did they, are they manipulating the situation?

And then the girls would say, oh, they want you to be the bachelorette. So I thought, oh, are they doing this because they want me to go far to be the bachelorette? I was very skeptical.

It wasn't until even when I got my first one-on-one, it was when I went home to my parents. And then you step out of the bubble and you're in the real world.

And I was kind of looking for somebody to pull me to the side, like, we don't like this guy or Rachel, what are you doing? And they were kind of playing along.

And I was kind of like looking for them for a lifeline in some sort of. And then I remember leaving hometowns.
I'm like, well, maybe he does really like me. Maybe it is real.

Maybe I'll know after the fantasy sweets. But as I said, I love fan of Fireball.
They really wanted me to say, I love you. I said it.
I laugh after. Like we, we start laughing.
They cut it out.

Like I say it. And I'm kind of like, I cared for him.
I really did. We're actually friends to this day.
You didn't love him. But I wasn't in love.
I wasn't in love at all.

And I said it and I kind of laughed. And then I passed out in the fantasy suite because I had drank so much.

that day and Trump had just been elected and I was trying to and I knew it and I was trying to talk.

Oh, once you're this is like the darkest this is getting so dark to me okay okay i'm i'm i'm i'm listening i'm learning okay so when you're the top four they set you're not in the mansion well you're not on the road so you're separated it's just you and a producer they let you watch tv so i watched the world series i think that was the the david ross like the was it the cubs i'm not even a baseball fan and i watched that it was in new york it's like a big deal the the day trump got elected i was watching the bbc i'm in finland i stayed up all night because because there was only three hours of daylight.

I stayed up and I watched it. And I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, he's going to win this.
He won. So the next day, I had a one-on-one.
It was my fantasy suite date.

And I was like, guys, Trump won. Are we going to talk about this? And they're like, don't talk about that on camera.
And I was like, but I have to talk to somebody. So instead, I talked to the bottle.

And you passed out in the fantasy suite. I never had sex.
So, okay. Thank you for saying that.
But

I'm not going to go about that. But to me, like,

as somebody who's not like a bachelor person,

I remember like, it can't possibly be true that they have something called the fantasy suite on this television show aired by Mickey Mouse.

Like, you know, Mickey, Mickey Mouse, and Minnie Mouse are like, let's get that bachelor on the show. It's the week where they go to the fantasy suite.
What is the

like, so everybody who's on the show knows that this leads to the fantasy suites. Yes.
What are, what is the conversation amongst the girls like about it?

Are you nervous about it? Are you ignoring it? Like, it feels so contrived.

And

like every once in a while, I'll have this moment where I'll be like, I can't believe these conservatives are protesting outside of drag brunch when the fantasy suite exists. You know what I'm saying?

Right. That's, that's a fair point.
So I've used it as a tactic to like fuck with people. So the girl who won, we're so cool now, but at the show, she was very serious.
She was like, he is my person

to the point where she alienated women because she was, she was really focused to her credit. Like she really came on there to find love.
Where we kept fucking around.

Like they were like, guys, he's here on the group date. Like stop hanging out with each other.

So when we were talking about the fantasy suite, I was like, oh, yeah, he doesn't want to see me in the fantasy suite. I was like, if I get in the fantasy suite, it's over for all of y'all.

Like, that's the kind of stuff that I would say. And they would just start.
That's cool. I like trash talk.
The girls would laugh like who knew me, but she would be so nervous.

So I, we had no problem talking about it. Only three of you are going to make it there.
So it's not real until you get to, you know, the six when you start thinking about that kind of stuff.

Also, it's by the time you get to the fantasy suites, it's probably been like eight weeks.

And you've been making out, you've been constantly talking about how you love this person, some people, like you like this person.

You could see some, like you're, you're, all you're doing is talking about this one person. He's your whole world.
So like by the the time you get to that week, like you're kind of horny. Wow.

And so they set you up for it. So I, I mean, I passed out.
So it was, nothing happened for me. All that talk.

Yeah.

That's all it was.

But others don't pass out. No, I mean, I was the bachelorette.
I definitely didn't pass out then.

Wow.

It's like I'm like, I become basically just sort of like, I don't know, some kind of a nun.

Like I'm like, I'm like Sister John Lovett and I'm being like, and and then you go in there and you have sex. Knowing that other people possibly can.
So here's how they set it up. It's a week.

You have a Monday, you have a date. And then you may or may not give someone the key.
It's like this ancient looking key that's like from, I don't know, like, I don't know, from a fairy tale.

And you hand them the key and you, you don't have to give everybody the fantasy suite. So you give them the key and then you've already have your bag packed just in case you get that key.

And then they'll take you into the room and they'll usually show you like kissing on the bed and they show you closing the door. That's what my parents will call it.

They're like, you're not going to go to the closed door, are you? And I was like, it's the fantasy suite and I'm grown. But

my parents are very religious. And so, yeah,

the judge as well. The judge, yeah.
The judge, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Look at that. He never came on the show, by the way.
He found some kind of loophole. He's like, I'm not allowed to be on the show.

It's not true. So he closes the door, or you close the door, and then they're like, cut.
And then they come in. It's so not romantic.

And they take down the lights and they take everything down and then they really leave you alone and your producer is maybe if it's depending on a house or hotel a couple of doors down or maybe downstairs or whatever and then it's just you and this person there's usually like a bowl of condoms

and it's just the two of you and you can decide to do what you want to do you can talk you can have conversations usually it's a little bit of both You gotta have to say something. Yeah, yeah.

You would hope so, right?

Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't have sex with everybody that I did, that I went to the fantasy suite, but I did take all three to the fantasy suite.
But I had legitimate questions.

I had concerns that my parents had. I had concerns that I had.
I had like written down all these things. I was asking like your credit score, your political affiliation.

By that time, when I was on the Bachelorette, I really liked the men that I had brought there. And so I was very serious and intentional in the questions I asked.
And then it was over.

I was like, whoa, let's go. Let's go.
Wait, so that is so interesting. So, because

one thing that like, there's a moment in

Vanderpump Rules where Tom Sandoval is desperate to have a conversation off camera. And they're like, no, because they know.
Yeah. We have to get the best moments on camera.

Is this the first time you're able to speak to these guys

without cameras? It's, yeah. The only time they usually let you sneak away is if you really like someone.
And this is what I will give them

After every week, they say, Who are your top four? And they don't mess with them. So they really allow you to explore the people you really think you have a future with.

And so they might give you extra time. They might give you alone time where it's not really talking.

It's more like making out, but like you get to spend time with each other away from everyone else if they're on a group date or something like that.

But it is the first time because you don't ride in cars together.

You might have a couple of those moments, but they're rare. Like something has to happen.
Like for me,

I think they, we were, this sounds so unrealistic. We were in Switzerland and we got caught in a storm on a top of a glacier and we couldn't helicopter back down.
So we had to drive.

It was like this crazy situation. So we were able to be in the car without any cameras.
So rare. But the fantasy suite, it really is that moment.
You can talk about any and everything.

Nobody's around. Is it different? Is the conversation different? Are you finally, does your guard come down? Are you checking?

Like, it's almost like, now that the cameras aren't here, can we, let's actually make sure any of this is real? Like, what's it, what's it like? Yeah, on the bachelor, that never happened.

Like, I, we never, I never even made it to the bedroom. I passed out and he was like, I carried you up the stairs and gave you Dylanol and put you in the bed.
That's what happened.

On the Bachelorette, there was a guy who was very, on my season, was very unsure. He was like, I don't know about getting engaged.
And I'm like, why the fuck are you here? Like, that is the thing.

Now it's more normal on The Bachelor where people are boyfriend and girlfriend and walk away.

But I kind of felt like he was playing with me because it was like, why now you got to a certain point and it felt like, oh, I got as far as I needed to go. Now I can leave.
Except Peter? Peter. Yeah.

It just didn't feel, it just didn't, something was unsettling to me. And he was like my top two.

But the fantasy suite was a, for us, was really emotional when the camp, because it was emotional going in.

I was just like, remember I turned to producer and I was like, I'd just rather send him home. I don't really want to get the fantasy suite.
It just feels off to me.

Because you really cared about him and you thought he was going to leave. You thought he wasn't as invested in the show or you? Yeah, I felt like he reminded me of my ex.

It was like he couldn't commit. And it was like, by this point, know who you are and know what you want.
I'm dealing with Brian, who I obviously ended up picking, who was so matter of fact.

And I'm like, why can't you do that? Either say I don't want you or say I do. And I understand it's an engagement and that's a real thing.
But the way I was looking at it is we're not getting married.

Even Brian and I, it took us two and a half years to get married, not because we were planning a wedding, because we were getting to know each other in real life.

It's almost like you start over and you start dating again. That did not work out well.

But I was trying to convince Peter of that very same thing because what I wanted was both of them to come at the end and be committed, not one being wishy-washy, so then I could fully make my decision.

But see, isn't that, but that's the control a show

wants you to have that in life doesn't exist, right? Because what if Peter's timeline just didn't fit with the timeline of the show? Then why are you here? Well,

but like, that's a question for the show, but for you, like, what if Peter is the right person? But because, well, because the timeline is wrong, you're not in sync. In real life, there's no deadline.

Right. You might, now there might be hard conversations that are like, if, hey, like, I need to know.
Like, it's a classic conversation. Where is this going? Yeah.
Right.

I'm ready you're not i need to know right like you have that back and forth and you negotiate it's so logical but in the show it's not like that right that's why i kept saying to myself and i said in the finale and i got a lot of shit for it i was like this because why are you trying to be the bachelor then because he so fucking was so that's what you think that that was but i know he was and he's come out and said it like i i knew that they wanted him to be and something happened behind the scenes where it didn't happen it didn't come to fruition and they picked ari but if the timeline doesn't work for you, then why are you going to be the bachelor?

Do you see what I'm saying? Right, right, right, right. So you felt like it wasn't just the, you thought there was something slightly, like something short of dishonest.

I think we caught each other by surprise. He was my first date.
We were both very skeptical. We had a great first date.
There was a lot of you two, you two.

And in the real world, I don't ever think we would have gone on a date or chosen each other.

And so we fell in love with the process after our first date because it was like, wow, this could really be something. And then it was forever before we had another date.
And he got really insecure.

And in his head, he started questioning things, which makes sense. We all, I've been on that side of things.
So I understand it. But for me, it was like, why?

If you don't, it doesn't work for you. That is so fair.
And it makes sense. Why come this far? Because even in the end, when I brought this up and I was just like, you just don't know what you want.

He was like, fine, then I'll do it. I'll get engaged.
And it's like, well, that's. Who wants that? Who wants, who wants to pull someone towards you like that?

But so you, you're that you, when you say caught each other by surprise, that in his mind, he had how this was supposed to go, which was get as far as you can and then be the bachelor.

No, I just think he maybe came in with the same mindset as me that I did on next season. I'm just open to whatever can happen, but I don't really think it's going to happen.

And we clicked so well. We had a really first, great first date.
It was probably one of my favorite dates on the show, and my dog was a part of it.

That I think that we both were like, it could happen.

It takes you out of your mind. Like the skepticism kind of goes away because you're like, I really connected.
And that was genuine for me. That's so interesting.

Cause it, what, like, what you're describing is that whatever the artificial show is,

like. Two people meeting is very, very powerful and can maybe can overwhelm those kinds of things, including like the, the, what's supposed to happen.
Was there any part of you after it ended that?

I'll tell you, my, my fiancé, who I met on Love is Blind. No, didn't, but

did catch that season.

First of all, they want to meet you, but they're also like, what happened with Peter?

You must get that all the time. What happened with Peter? What happened with Peter?

After the show, did you ever, was it ever a possibility they say, look, I got engaged to Brian on the show, but some part of me thinks it was always meant to be Peter.

I never thought it was meant to be Peter towards towards the end because the indecisiveness was just became so unattractive to me. But there, I do wonder, well, I'll say this.
Our breakup was brutal.

And the reason I think our first date was so good and because we were both so skeptical is there wasn't love bombing. Like the whole show was meant for love bombing.
We'll just put that out there.

But our date wasn't him telling me how great and amazing I was. It was us talking about therapy.

It was us bonding over just real life things that I was shocked that they kept on the show because normally they take that kind of stuff out where I was like, oh, we're having real conversations.

We're not just horny and, you know, like super attracted to each other. It felt a little deeper.
It felt more real.

But when he left, that that was probably like a three hour conversation. And they, I, the producer's like, just like, keep going, keep going.
Cause we were, the emotion was raw and it was real.

And for me, I wanted to pour it all out there because I knew I was breaking up with him.

I walked in there knowing, because that was the one thing that I put my foot down with, was that I did not want two people to propose to me.

So I remember the producers were like, if you don't do it tonight, they're both going to come to the, whether they propose or not, they're both going to meet you at the podium, whatever it is.

And I didn't want that. I didn't want that day to be clouded by that, which in hindsight, it's like, but it was because of what happened the night before.

And so I didn't expect him to fight for it in the way that he did. So it threw me off.

And I always compare it to an ex and people don't believe me, but the relationship that I was in before, he always gave me just enough to have enough hope to hang on.

And I was not expecting Peter to do that. I wasn't expecting to see his emotion.
I was like, oh, wait, maybe he really does care. I thought this was going to be super easy.
It was not.

And it was hard. And I questioned it even because of his emotion and his response to me.
I questioned it. It was so hard.
That next day, the day of the proposal, I was crying. I didn't sleep.

My eyes were bloodshot red going to the proposal. And I was like, this is what I was trying to avoid.
And I'm doing, and it's happening anyway, because I was so concerned about him. Is he okay?

Is he mad at me? You know, what's going to happen?

I knew Brian was the right choice,

but

I couldn't get past.

I don't think I've ever said this out loud. Oh, that's exciting.

I couldn't. it took me weeks after the proposal to stop thinking about him and if he was okay.
It wasn't that I was thinking about him like I want to be with him, but he was so emotional.

And I was when we left each other that I kept thinking, how is he? Can you tell me how he's doing? Is he okay? Like I felt, because I really, really cared for him. I really, really did.

And that's something I didn't anticipate either, that there were going to be two men at the end that I really, really cared about. Hey, don't go anywhere.

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Part of this is what you're describing is breaking up with somebody on a Wednesday and getting engaged to a different person on a Thursday, which is, you know, absent cameras, not how we do business.

You know, like, of course you were still stuck on somebody. Like

in the real world, when you break up with somebody, you're weird for a while. Yeah.
You were post-breakup and in the early, you must have been weird. I know you started.
I was lying to myself.

Yeah, you think you were lying to yourself. No, I was lying to myself in that I was like, I'm going to break up.
It's going to be fine.

I'm going to be okay because I have made the decision with Brian.

And i still believe that was the right decision to choose brian but i underestimated how hard it would be to say goodbye to peter and then i would keep thinking about his well-being for a few weeks after i really did and then then

you got to watch it like then you have to re-watch the whole thing again and you have to defend to your partner things that you said or make out scenes in a hot tub and we would get the episodes before it's like you're watching this with Brian yeah it's it's all the odds are against you to not survive it it truly is is not about them seeing the success of your relationship because it takes a strong man or woman to sit there and watch you profess feelings or make out

or you know like I can't remember everything I said or everything I did during the season and so like you try to prepare them as much as you can then their family members are calling that I like

Why did they say this? Why did they do this? Does she? And I had to fight that a lot. And the audience did not like Brian.
So they, and they loved Peter.

And I told Peter that, I go, they're going to be, America's going to be obsessed with you. I told him that in the fantasy suites.
He was like, what do you mean?

And I go, believe me, they're going to be obsessed with you because of the way you look and the way you act. They're going to expect you to act a certain way based on the way you look.
And you don't.

It's very Midwestern. And so they, and they hated Brian.
And so I'm defending Brian everywhere I go. And so it's, it, it just, it was, it was a lot.
It is, it is shocking. First of all,

I see why you were so clearly going to be the bachelorette because I'm so drawn into the story you're telling and I believe every single thing you're saying and you're so charismatic.

And then I step back and think, I'm sorry, you got engaged to somebody on television. I did.
I did. Can I say what plays into that too?

And this is, now we're getting to the divorce of it. Let's get it.
Well, right, because it's also like, well, it didn't work. It didn't work.
And there were lies that I told to myself throughout it.

And I think where I, there is a, there's, I don't care who you are, there is a societal pressure on women. And even being 32, I'm from the South and I come from a religious family.

So I went to school with people at 32 who were already on their third marriage, like four kids. It's just a way of life in the South.

So there is a pressure, I believe, as women that we put on ourselves that at this age, you know, if I had a life plan, I wrote about it in my first book.

By 32, I was already supposed to be on my second kid. I really thought that's what would happen for me.
And it didn't. And I don't regret any decision that I made before.

It's just that by that age, I was tired of people looking at me like, oh, she's successful in so many ways, but she just can't get successful at love. And I think I had that.

pressure on me as well of I don't want to walk out of this show without an engagement. I could have found a boyfriend in real life, you know?

And so it just kind of got to me too, of

what was, did I waste my time going through this process? I got to come out of here with something. It wasn't even a ring.
It was a, it was commitment.

I didn't have commitment in the relationship that I had before that was for five years. So if I go through this and I put myself out in such a public way, I at least want to have commitment.

I want to be on a path with someone who wants the same things that I want. We're not going to get married tomorrow.
Again, it took us two and a half years, but he wants kids. We have the same values.

He wants to be married. That's what I was looking for more than the person who was like, I don't really know.
I don't really know. Yeah.

And so that was part of the reason I wanted to see the whole process through too. And I realized that about myself as I was going through it.

At first, it was, and it still was, about being the first and showing that you don't have to look a certain way to find love.

But then also as I was becoming attracted and really developing feelings for the man, it it was like, I don't want to walk out of here once again, the woman who can't be loved, who can't find love.

Like on my exit in the bachelor, I'm crying. And I'm like, once again, I'm never good enough.
I never, so I had a lot of that in me. It's why I stayed in my marriage longer than I should have.

Even getting married, there were things that I saw, the things that the reason, the reasons we broke up, I saw all those things before, but I wanted to have kids and I wanted to be married and I wanted to be loved.

And it's like sad. It's kind of sad.

And I know a lot of women who put their careers first and then they look up one day and there are other things that they want for themselves and they don't have them.

And they kind of settle or they make sacrifices and they compromise in ways that they wouldn't normally do that because of their desire to have some of those other things.

I also do think that sometimes after a long, like in any relationship, even the best relationship, there are problems.

And if that relationship were to end, you'd look back and say, oh, I saw those problems all along.

But like, I always think too that like you you had to be the, become the person that wanted to end it, which you weren't were when it began. Like, I think it's like,

you have to be generous with yourself.

Also, I just, whenever I'm just like talking to you and I like, I feel so bad that you have to date straight men because it's like the idea that you're walking around, like, like, where's the commitment?

Like, that is wild to me. Yeah.
Just going out with a, like, that they're not seeing it, that's wild to me. That's, that's just the plight of being, I think, a woman from my understanding.

Yeah, I always say that men like the idea of me and not the reality. It's like they're so impressed by what I do or, you know, how I talk or whatever it may be.

But then when you have to be with me in real life and see that the work ethic that goes behind that or the time commitment it takes, it's like, well, wait a second, I don't like all of that.

And that's, and that's been a struggle for me. It was a struggle in my marriage.

Well, let's talk about, let's talk about becoming the bachelorette because you talked about the balance between you just wanting the experience and also being the first black woman in this role.

You also said something earlier about how when you first got there, you were really skeptical of the producers, you're waving the rose around who did this, who did this, and then you get more comfortable.

But it seems like you then become more skeptical again. And I just

talk about where you ended up and how you saw the

ways in which the producers shaped the show and

how much you felt like you could or couldn't trust them?

I

clocked immediately the most manipulative producer who's no longer with the show. Like, he would,

like, if the girls were all like chilling at the, in their hotel room, he'd come in and he'd like sit on the bed or maybe like crawl in the bed and not, not in like a freaky kind of way, but it was like,

I know what you're doing. I said to him on the bachelor, I was like, I'm a lawyer from one manipulator to another.
I fully see what you do. And he laughed.

I got it. So I'm still shocked that they wanted me to be the bachelorette after all of that.

But I felt like we were allowed to be ourselves on the bachelor. I didn't feel,

I kind of played the game in some ways. I knew when I was being asked a question that was because they wanted a particular answer.
I knew when they wanted me to say, I love you.

Actually, I was pulled to the side that was like, we need you to be honest with your feelings. We need you to, I was like, what? You need me to say, I love you? Like that was told to me.

So, the skepticism kind of came back when I was out of the mansion, I was out of hotels with the women, and I was assigned a producer.

And based on the producer, I had one producer, and then they assigned me another. And I'm like, oh, they're working me.
They're working me. And I could feel it.
They wanted me to kind of open up.

They wanted to see me get more emotional to him. I was with the women.
They wanted that for me. And so I think the skepticism came back with that.

Even when I went home, I gave a note to one of the girls because I knew I was going home that real ceremony. I was like, I'm going home.
I'm not going to see you. And I went home.

Like I just knew what was happening then.

As the bachelorette,

you're on a different side of things. So when you're the bachelor, you have total, or a contestant, you have totally different producers.
You're in the house. It's a totally different situation.

When you're the bachelorette, you have one producer, you're with the EPs. Like this is the team you travel with, like the stage manager, the host, like it's a totally different set of things.

So they're, you're kind of part of the strategy. It feels more like your show.
Yeah. You're, you're, it's like, hey, you need to keep this person.
Why? I don't want to keep this person.

We really need them to be on the two-on-one. So they're, they're, they are helping you make these decisions about who to keep and who to go.
They're involved. Except the top four.

That's why every week it's a reset. Who is now in your top four? All right.
We're not going to touch them. Might have even been five.
We're not going to touch those people.

But then everyone else was fair game.

And I remember there was a guy I wanted to take on a date and they're like, oh, we think think this storyline's great because there was a black guy who had never dated black women.

And I was trying to tell them that this is triggering. And I know this storyline is dramatic.
And they were like, yeah, but we've never had this story.

And I'm like, I go, you've never had these stories before because I'm black. You've never had a black lead.
All these stories are going to be new. I ended up having to take that guy anyway.

It was so obvious he wasn't into me that. They wanted me to keep him.
And I got to send him home because they said there is no way that they could edit it to make it look like he liked me.

And it was obvious on the one-on-one. So everybody else was just kind of like,

we need to keep this person for this. We need to do this for them.
This person needs a hometown. I did get that with one of them.

I was going to keep him anyway, but I learned that he had a very interesting family that I didn't know about before.

And it was kind of like, yeah, we're glad you kept him because we want you to take him to a hometown.

There was a guy that I liked, and they were like, is he the guy you're going to pick at the end? And I was like, no, but he's definitely my top five. And they were like, send him home.

You're not going to pick him anyway.

You might as well let him go now wow because they're with because they're just looking at more than you can see and they they don't think he's good tv for some reason yeah it was better to send him home like he was fan favorite kind of like good looking and it was like yeah but he's my there are other guys i'd rather send him home it's like nope send him home you're not gonna pick him anyway which yeah that's fair but I kind of want to surround myself with the guys I'm actually attracted to, care about, at least have a friendship about.

But the top four, no. So that's how I saw the manipulation.
I was more in on it. It made me understand Nick better when he was the bachelor because now I see the other side of it as the bachelorette.

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You've also talked about what it was like finding out that they had

put somebody in the house that had a bunch of like insanely racist tweets. Oh, yeah.
And at one point you were like, oh, I hope they didn't know, but now you think they did. I think they knew.

And it's crazy because I don't know if I've ever said it like this before, but I could not tell he was that person.

Even when I took him on the two-on-one.

I could, I was, so there was Kenny the wrestler and then there was, what was it? I'm not even trying to be funny. I can't even remember.
Lee. Lee, Lee.
I I was like, I can't even remember his name.

Garrett, right? Kenny was upsetting to me because he was older. I liked that he had a child, actually, but he, as an older guy, I was mad that he was getting caught up in the mess.

Like, you'd be above that. And that to me was a character flaw.
And I would tell him that. I actually really liked Kenny, but I'm like, you keep getting in the shits.
Like, move past it. Focus on me.

And then Lee played more of like the religious, quiet. I'm being ganged up on.
And I, I really couldn't just, I couldn't tell that he was as bad as he was in real time.

And I will credit a producer that said to me, no, he's not a good person. Because they could see that I was like, I was in my mind.
I was like, they're saying this, but that's not how he is with me.

And they're like, no, he's not a good person. So when I came out and I saw that, I'm like, oh, they knew.
You knew. Cause you could tell me in real time.

The way he's presenting himself is not who he really is.

So I think that it was a good storyline for them to find someone from an area that had not been around black people, definitely hadn't dated a black person, and would be triggered in a house full of diversity.

Because also the bachelors were more diverse than any previous cast, right? And so he's having these bad interactions with Kenny and others, right, that they're also using to play up the drama. Yeah.

And he was antagonizing them and he just, yeah, he was just like riling everybody up in the house. He was very like used microaggressions like crazy.

Like, he's like, just like never been around people of color is what it felt like. But I wasn't privy to all of that.
One day I heard them screaming and I was in another room.

And I go, can I go in there and say some shit to everybody? And they were like, no, you can't. And I know that they didn't let me do that because.

You know, there's certain stereotypes as a black woman. Like, I was going to go in there and rip it up.

And I saw in later seasons that they allowed other bachelorettes to have their moment like that, but they wouldn't let me do that.

They let me do it with DiMario because he brought his ex girlfriend and it was just so obvious, but they wouldn't let me go in the room and just tell everybody a piece of my mind.

And you think that was because they were worried about the stereotype? They were worried about it for you, for the show? Like what? Both for me and the show.

Because even when I was on The Bachelor and I got into it with the girl, Vanessa, who he picked, we had a sit-down. I didn't even yell or scream, but she accused me of being a bully.

And I was like, where? Give me examples. She couldn't give me any.
And I was like, yeah, because you're full of shit. And then they were like, we're not going to hear any of that.

Because they knew that they wanted me to be the bachelorette. I didn't at the time.
And they knew she was going to win. And it just didn't look good for the show.

And it didn't look good for their first black bachelorette. That's so, because it's, on the one hand, they're

trying to protect you from a stereotype, but on the other hand, they're afraid what the audience, the stereotype will apply in the audience's is mind like i it's it's because they're with the bachelorette they wouldn't have protected me okay because they they they saw you as someone that was gonna be part of their brand and they didn't want you they they're worried about the stereotype yeah yeah yeah yeah they i needed i had to be perfect on paper in the way i presented myself i got really drunk on one day because i got dehydrated and um it was like a track and fill date and they came and talked to me after and they were like is there do you have a drinking problem is there and i was like no and then thank god my producer who was with me was was like, she had two drinks today.

They've just been in the house. It's her first day out.
You had us doing all these track and field events in the heat. She's exhausted.
She's tired.

She had a drink and it just like made me like super woozy.

And, but I realized they were saying that to me now because they wanted to know if I did because they wanted me to be the bachelorette. But at the time, I didn't see it that way.
Interesting. And so

your season of The Bachelorette ends.

And then

there's this controversy over Lee and then there's a controversy. You're now anchoring at Extra and talking to Chris Harrison who is now dealing with the fallout from a Bachelorette having done a

Anne Bellum party and

that

that conversation leads to Chris Harrison withdrawing,

taking a break from the show, which then becomes permanent.

And a lot of people are mad at you because you were the one who just asked him the questions.

And we were talking about this when we were

thinking about this conversation. And we all had this realization, which is,

does he lose his job today in the same exact, does the same thing happen today as happens there? I don't know the answer. I'm not sure.
Yeah.

I don't think the way that snowballed into something so much bigger. No, he would have sat out maybe.
Maybe he wouldn't have hosted the finale episode and he would have been able to come back.

I think he thought that for himself. If it had not happened in February of 2021, that's when cancel culture was like heightened.
It also is who he had the conversation with.

He wasn't, me, being me, he wasn't even supposed to be the person I interviewed that day. I was going to interview a contestant.
That contestant.

or a former person on the show, that person pulled out because I think they didn't want to be asked a question.

He was the guy who I was going to talk to was Tyler Cameron, who was the best friend of Matt James, who was the bachelor. He pulled out, I think, because he knew I would ask a question.

I'm known for asking direct questions, relevant questions. And Chris was there to promote, nobody even knows, some drink, maybe.
So it was a perfect storm. ABC PR wasn't on the call.

Warner PR wasn't on the call. It was the PR of that drink company.
That's what I was saying. So there was no one to stop him and say, you're going the wrong way.

It was 15 minutes of him ranting and raving, which I have always known how Chris is. He doesn't even like me.
He's never liked me. And I, but how could anyone not like you? Thank you.

He played the game because he has to as the host, but I would always hear rumblings like, Chris doesn't like you, because I didn't suck up to him in maybe a way that another contestant would.

I was just like, you know, cool, friendly with him. And so I think he just thought, I don't know.
He was just showing his true self, but but I was sitting back like, I know this to be you.

The audience doesn't. I'm just shocked that you have the audacity to be saying this.
And then when he finished, we're a 30-minute show, 20 minutes with commercials.

I go to my EP and I said, did you see that? She said, no. I said, only air whatever he said about his promotion.
I said, put the whole thing on YouTube, unedited. And then that's what happened.

And then the next day, I, it blew up and I sent it to an executive at ABC. And he's like, yeah, I already saw it.
It's the first thing. It's the first thing on my desk this morning.

That actually is so surprising to me because I just thought this was damage control gone wrong, but this was truly, so he was in some ways mad that you were putting this to him.

He did not think he was going to be asked questions about that. How could he not?

I think he thought he was smarter than me. I think he thought that he was having a very intelligent conversation.
He called me after that

before it went on YouTube. He called me after and he's like, I thought that was a great conversation.

Swear to God, I'm so, and I go, yeah,

I go, I don't really agree with what you had to say, but okay.

He like in his mind, like it just shows what, what an ego he had. He was, it's so, it's so wild to just think of that 24 hours from the time he did it to the time it came out.

He didn't apologize to me till ABC had a talk with him or somebody had a talk with him because he called me that, he texted me or called me that morning and was like, well, they're saying I'm gaslighting you.

He still didn't get it until somebody said something and then he apologized. And then when I tried to explain to him why it was offensive, it was like dismissive.

Like, okay, yeah, well, I'm going to go. Like there wasn't any truly taking ownership of it.
And that's obvious from when he did apologize on Good Morning America. And, you know, Strahan's my guy.

So he had my back in that moment. And that was kind of like the end.

Because once you show yourself like that, you can't go back to being this rigid, you know, PC host. Like people saw you loose.
And so his apology was so stiff, which is how he always was before. Yeah.

That he couldn't apologize in that way. Nobody believes you anymore.
It doesn't make any sense. We've seen who you really are.
It's so interesting because it.

Whatever he actually thought in the moment, you think like a self-preservation instinct would kick in.

Like, because, you know, I remember when he went off the bachelor, people would say, oh, you know,

Chris Harrison is to The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, what, like, Jeff Propes is to survivors. Like, I don't think so.
Yeah. I don't think so.
Like, he does. Right.
But he did. He did.
He did.

That's right. He really did.
I mean, he was doing damage control after it was that. So it's, it just all snowballed.

Like, once it happened, you had a statement from the women on Matt James's season that was airing at the time that were like, we stand by Rachel.

And I kind of was like, they were making it a Rachel versus Chris situation. Then the men followed suit.
We're like, oh, well, we got to do what the women did. The men put out a statement.

It was, it was wild. Did you feel like people needed to stand with you? Did you need, did you need standing? No.

You just interviewed the guy. I interviewed the guy.
I was like, okay, he's put it out here. He's shown who he is.
I mean, he literally yells at one point, who are you? Who the hell is Rachel Lindsay?

And he catches himself and he goes, who the hell is Chris Harrison?

And and then what made it worse was me saying well who would I dress up as if I go to the party because he was like ah we all had these parties you know and I and he and he was like yeah I hear you but and it's like no

no that's not the correct response so then when it snowballed into that When the after the statement from the men and the women, that's when the show decided that he would not, they would suspend him and he wouldn't host the finale.

So now then it shifts into conservative right-wing media of this girl trapped him and asked these questions that made him answer in a certain way. And she canceled him.
She got him canceled.

It became the story as if I, and I didn't. I think I talked to Don Lemon and then I did something on Good Morning America of just like how it felt in the moment.
But I was very quiet about it.

And of course, Extra was going to take advantage of it. And so like Billy Bush was like, well, we got to do a sit down and talk about it.

Like, I got to be a part of this, this conversation that happened. It happened on our show, and he wasn't there, you know, to privy to it at first.
Who'd been on his own journey? Yeah.

About like Billy Bush, Billy, Billy Bush, hey,

Glass Houses Much?

Do you not remember what happened to you four months ago?

Yes, no, no, it's so true. But Billy was the host of Extra at the time, but he wasn't a part of this.
So it was like, well, I got to tap into this too. This is the hottest story.

And then Ben Shapiro started talking about it, and it turned into a whole thing.

That's when people, I had to hire someone. They were like, We're going to find stuff on you.
You got him canceled. We're going to, we're going to get you like you got him.

I mean, I deactivated my Instagram after a while and it was like every week. And Ben was like, look at her.
She's privileged. She lives a privileged life.
And I'm like, how did it turn into this?

Off of one question. I didn't say I didn't grow up privileged.
I didn't say any of these. It was, it just became every week.
And then they announced he wasn't hosting the finale.

So then that became a conversation. So it then triggered something else.
Then it was, is he going to be hosting the next season?

It was the next bachelorette who said, I don't want him hosting my season. That's why they brought in two other people.
That's how he ended up getting let go.

And then after the Good Morning America, she said, I was like, I'm too emotionally attached to it. On my podcast, I would say, I'm emotionally attached to it.

I'm not going to say whether or not he should keep his job.

So it's, it was, it was such a crazy time. That's fascinating.
I just, it's the, it's the way it became about you that was so

like like you, because you like, there was a version of it where you asked him the question and he gave a perfectly thoughtful and non-defensive answer and maybe would have followed up or moved on, but it was such a

defensive and kind of surprising reaction. Like, of course, you're, you're hosting.
a show you're asking of course you're going to ask follow-up questions it's your job like it's

interesting that i got turned on to you i ex well yes and no. I expected him to give a PC answer.

I was actually pissed that instead of Tyler, we got him because I was like, ah, he's not going to give me anything. And then look what happened with it.

But it wasn't surprising because the audience has a love-hate relationship with me. Once I got off the show, I was very vocal about promoting diversity for the show.

I could have easily been like, I'm the first lead. Let's move on.
But for me, it was like, no, this should be a pathway of more diversity with this show.

Yeah, you might look at it as this silly little show, but there are millions of people who watch it, millions of people who, as that mother said to me, don't see themselves represented.

So we need to make space for more people. So anytime someone would ask me who should be the next Bachelor Bachelorette, I was only naming people of color.

I just was like, that's, that's what we should do.

Different ages, different sizes, different, like, I was very much promoting that. So people got sick of me.
And they were, so people either loved me or hated me.

If something went wrong with the bachelor, I was, I would speak out against it. I'd hold the franchise accountable.
I was like, it's like a family member. The show gave me a lot.
I love it.

And because I love it, I'm going to hold it accountable when I feel like it's doing something wrong.

And so the audience, very much so, it was okay when another bachelorette did something. But if I did it, like I said, oh, don't, I'm not living a mediocre life.
I'm living my best life.

Oh, she's a bitch. She's a horrible person.
A Hannah Brown, I got love for Hannah Brown. She curses somebody out.
Then it's like, she is strong. She is a woman.
Watch her roar.

And it's, that's the kind of stereotype. It's like, it's fine if she doesn't because she looks a certain way.

There were, and this isn't everybody by any means, but there was a group of the audience that my co-host loves to call the Bachelor Clan with a K that really

don't give me any grace or any space or understanding. So it wasn't shocking when the audience was, when people responded that way, because they think of the worst with me.

Oh, she knew she was trying to get him, not listening to his 15 minute rant. It was, that's her fault.
How dare she put him in that position? So that was shocking.

And so that's, that's higher learning with Van Lathan, that you're, that show you do.

So you come out the other side of the bachelor, you have opportunities with extra ESPN. Like you, and now you host this show.

It helped give you this

life that you have.

It was the path out of being a lawyer in Dallas. You never went back to being a lawyer? I did.
I practiced for two years after.

After the Bachelorette or after the Bachelorette. After the Bachelorette.
After the Bachelorette. I stopped practicing at the top of 2019.

But you were able to kind of leave behind the lawn and now be someone that hosts and

is like a public figure.

You're glad you did it. It was worth doing.
It was absolutely everything was worth it. That's why I think it was so, I kept looking for no's.
Everyone was giving me yeses.

It was meant to be, it was the universe saying, this is the path that you're supposed to be on. I felt drawn to it in a way that I can't explain.

But I, I've said this before, that I believe if you're given a platform, you should be purposeful about it.

And so I always knew that as a first, and partly I could see that because my dad was a first in his career and what he was doing, first as a city attorney in Dallas, and then being a judge in the Northern District.

He was the first black. So I saw the struggle.
I saw the highs and lows of it.

And I saw that he was very intentional and grateful about the positions that he had and really used it to make a difference. And so, yes, even on a reality show, I felt like.

they'll listen to me in ways that maybe they won't a contestant because a part of them did want to protect me because it was about protecting the brand. They wanted to make sure that I was happy.

And so if I could pave the way for other people, you know, to come on the show or apply for the show or, you know, use the show

to have a different path like I did, then great, fine. It's now I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.
I love that I have, you know, a microphone, a voice, a platform.

I love that I've built a community. I love, I think one of the scariest things when you leave the bachelor is, well, does anybody care what I have to say outside of being the bachelor?

Because that's how everybody got to know me. And I'm happy that they do.

Before we let you go,

we were

talking about what we wanted to talk about with you as a team.

And our producer Kendra had a question she thought I should ask. And I said, are you trying to get me destroyed on the internet? I can't ask that question.

And so instead, we're now going to end with a segment we call questions about race. Our producer Kendra wanted me to ask, but I know my place and the internet is forever.
Kendra, please join us.

And I do want you to start with the question you, I think, earnestly thought I should ask.

Well, I feel like you've actually answered it kind of in a way with the discussion that you guys were just having. So I'm going to rephrase it slightly.
I know you watch Bravo. You're a Bravo girly.

For me, watching those shows,

people like Vicki Gungelson, like Ramona Singer, like Tamara, they are perfect as they are for reality television. Yes.

And so when you have a show like OC or a show like Beverly Hills and they're all white when they start, to me, that is the perfect way for them to be because you cannot change those women. Sure.

And changing those women would intrinsically destroy what makes them good television. And so my question for you is, are you for the integration of all white reality shows? Oh, whoa.

You know, okay, okay.

I think

Okay, so OC,

they went badly. It did not go well.
It went bad, but they also just like, I'm just not a fan of like the,

yeah. Okay, I won't still talk about that.

That's a really good point.

And I think some sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The reason I guess I never looked at it that way is because they have Atlanta, they have Potomac.

And I don't want, well, there's Kim Zolziak. But that is an exception.
I think it's an exception when a show does start somewhat integrated.

It's the bringing in when I start like, every time Vanita on Southern Charm is in a scene with Miss Pat, I'm clenched. And I can't unclench until they are apart from each other.

Every time Ramona looks at a black person, I'm worried about what's about to come out of her mouth. Okay.
So

I do adore Vanita.

I think this should be integrated. It's something about when you brought up Vanita and Southern Charm, I, with the housewives, I can accept it a little bit more.

I can accept Beverly Hills being white, even though it's not anymore.

I can accept that with OC because I actually think that that represents exactly what those communities are.

The South, I don't want to see Miss Pat

going into her house with her slavery trinkets.

And I, yeah, I needed to break up. I don't want, and maybe because I'm from the South, the South is very black.

And I appreciate, I feel sorry for Vanita, and I've called out production on this multiple times, but I need to see black representation on that show.

And I think that that's totally fair. I think my issue comes with if I'm working here and Tamra

refers to her husband, who is Mexican-American, as she, I've been re-watching O Save, she calls him a slur at one point or refers to him as a slur.

And that's the man she loves. That's how she's talking about him on camera.
And he allows it. And yep, and he allows it.
And he probably has his own views.

But if, say, if someone here does that, there's a barrier of then I go to HR.

There's no barrier on a reality show to that degree. And so it just makes watching it.
That's why I say I'm clenched, because for me, it then stresses me out worrying. about what I'm about to see.

I covered your season of The Bachelorette for Elle and I was re go, I was going through all of my recaps and I had blocked out a lot of the Lee stuff. Like I had forgotten it, completely forgotten.

And I think that was on purpose because covering that season was tough. It was really, really hard.
And I think that might have been that

I, that experience came back as I'm thinking about like watching Katie Janella try to navigate or watching what happened to Garcel on Beverly Hills. Yeah.

Yeah. I still think, I think it works in some it's like, it's hard for me to answer.

Like the bounce is different because you have contestants that look, even if there's only one, that you have different contestants. So it makes sense to have a lead.

It just, it works in some ways. It works.
And a perfect example of that is New York. Yeah.
Right.

They brought Ebony in, who it would have worked, but like we learned how racist Ramona is in watching that. And I actually appreciate that because I needed to see that.

I don't know if I was really fully aware of it until that came out.

So I guess if I'm, if I'm giving a yes or no, I do think, yes, they should be integrated, not for entertainment purposes, just because we just need to see it. That's fair.

And I hate for the person who gets subjected to it. I've been through it, who has to go through it, and that's unfair.
But as a fan of reality TV, I just need to see it.

As much as I love Potomac and it being all black, if they brought in a white woman, I'd kind of be into it. It would certainly be interesting as long as I don't have to look at Michael Darby again.

And there was Mike,

but I miss him. Really? Away from Ashley.

But just for the entertainment purposes. Now I'm being hypocritical.
But yeah,

I think it needs to be integrated. Have you and Karen Huger gotten to do fireball shots? No, but I did see Karen Huger when I got out of the elevator at BravoCon and I gave her a big hug.

Oh, I'm so happy for her. What is what was her?

She was one of the people on the list of people convicted. Now, she did have four DUIs.
And so it is tough for me to be asking about doing fireball shots, but that is kind of her, that's her thing.

That was her thing. What do you think you haven't learned from the third DUI?

And that was the question. They were all different, right? Like,

they weren't full DUIs. It might have been like they might have seen her in a parking lot with no cars all.
Oh, I see. I see.

Yeah, still a problem. There's still a drinking problem.
Kind of fall asleep in the drive-through line kind of a situation, you know? Yes.

I have just two more.

I auditioned for The Bachelor. I did one of those like cattle call auditions, not for serious, for funsies.
I was writing an article about it.

And my best friend and I went, my best friend is a four foot 11 white woman.

And they asked me flat out whether I had ever kissed a white man. They asked me

if, and then that escalated into whether or not I'd slept with a white man and which one of the former bachelors I was most likely to sleep with and why.

And so I'm wondering what the most invasive question about race anyone ever asked you.

Did I ask you whose season that was? I have no, I was a cattle call at Lincoln Center, the ABC studios at Lincoln Center sometime in like 2014, 2015, 2016. Okay, so it was before me.
Yes.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

They never asked me if I, I had a crazy interview process. I didn't have an interview process.

Like I tried to leave the original, the Dallas interview because it was taking too long and I need to go back to work. And I think that alone, they were like,

it's great to not be to the front of the line. Not be bluffing.
It's good. Yeah.

You know, not too thirsty. It's like dating.
Yeah. I was like, here's my application.
You know, I took a picture and they were like, let's skip you to the front. So it, and I'm so forward.

Like I said, when I got in front of the EPs,

they said, who's your dream person? Who would your parents love to see you with? And I go, oh my God, that's so easy, Barack Obama. Like that type, that's who they, that's the standard.

And I fell every time. Nothing close.
They never, they did not get that like sweet and serious with us. Nothing close.

I really can't remember because I was so forward. Like they were like, why do you want to be here? I was like, I don't know.
I was like, the show is not for me. You don't have black people on you.

I was so forward in that sense. They never asked me those questions, but I also think I was an asset that they were trying to protect.
So they really handled me with kid gloves.

I look at Jasmine, who was on the season with me. They didn't treat Jasmine like they treated me.
I hate almost saying it that way because I was protected. They protected me.

My final question is, I always wondered, did you and Kenny ever have a chance to talk after the show?

No. About what had happened? No, we didn't because, I mean, I picked Brian.
They were cool.

And I tried to because the audience was so disliked. Like, did you like Brian? No, not.
Yeah, it's okay. It's okay.
We can't stand him now.

I was a Peter personal. We can't stand him.
I'm a dean. I was a dean.

So

was the audience right?

I underestimated how famous he wanted to be.

It really comes down to that. And I don't know if I ever would have.

Okay, I don't know if I said this before. Definitely will say it in a book that I'm writing, but when I got off the show, he quit his job.

Like when we finished rapping in Spain and, and I will come back to the candy question, we finished rapping in Spain and we flew back and there was like a week, maybe 10 days before the show was about to air.

It was a really quick turnaround. I went back to work.
I was working and He was like, so I quit my job and I boo-hooed. I'll never forget.

I was was getting ready for the Billboard Awards and I was like, he wants to be famous. I said it.
I was like, he wants to be famous.

I don't want to do this. That was the last thing I want.
I thought he was different. He had a career.
He was older. All these things, right? He had more than me before we got married.

And producer just kind of was like, well, maybe he wants to try a different path. And I just said, okay, I'm going to give him the space to do that.
But I said it.

And then it turns out his desire, he played the doting husband because he liked the attention that he got from that. I'm so supportive.
She's a rock star. She's all these things.

But he was secretly seething behind closed doors, desiring, like jealous of the platform that I was building and that he didn't have that and would blame me for the lack of success that he had.

So, yeah.

That's what I mean about there were certain things I saw. I just didn't see them like that in that way.
How could I at that point? But, you know, there are other things.

Friends remind me. Friends remind me.
You said this. Chiropractory, you, the red flag.
He got mad at me for saying that. I said that to him.

I was like, I don't believe, I'm not really a chiropractor person. I did a lot of personal injury stuff.
And I would watch them run up the bills. And I would, I was like, I would depose them.

And it was, it was awful. And so I was just kind of like, oh, and he really got offended.
He also got offended that I never would let him adjust me. It was like little things like that.

That's so funny.

It's so funny to be engaged to a chiropractor and be like, please don't touch me.

I don't want you to crack my back. I don't believe that.
I was desperate. I was desperate for it if I did it, but I just was like,

I was going to wrap. I want to let you finish the Kenny thought.
Oh, yeah.

Kenny said something to me during,

I don't know why, I don't remember much from my mental all, but he said something like, I'll see you next lifetime. And I just thought it was really sweet.

Kenny is probably one of the few people I feel like if I had met in real life, we would have dated.

But the circumstances of the show, the show can neither like make you or break you. And it broke him between being separated from his daughter and

just Lee antagonizing him. And I've never said this, but like, I really think that Kenny is probably somebody that

I would have dated, but it just didn't work out. And so I haven't talked to him out of respect to Brian.
Some of the guys were at our wedding,

but

he wasn't. He wasn't one of the ones.
But yeah, like he was, he was one of the good ones. Worth attacks? Yeah.
No. Okay.

Bad idea.

You're dating somebody. Oh, you're dating somebody.
Okay, we don't know that. We don't know that.
Okay, great.

I know. We don't really talk about it.
Well, that's interesting. Gobi's quite a switch.
I was like that before I did the show. I've always been private.
I never really posted the guys.

So why nobody has ever talked about who I dated in the past? There really aren't any pictures or anything out there because it's so rare that I do that.

And with that, Rachel Lindsay, so good to talk to you. What a great conversation.
So appreciate your time. And Kendra James for jumping in.
I could not. Huge segment on the show.

To be clear, could you imagine I was like, hey, do you think that reality television should be integrated? I'm not going to ask that fucking question. That's totally fine.

I would have just talked about it on higher learning later.

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