Ep 230: Nisha Katona

Hello, it's Ed Gamble here from the Off Menu Podcast.

Hello, it's James Acaster here from the Off Menu Podcast.

And before the episode starts, we'd like to talk to you about All Our Relations, a non-profit co-founded by your friend of mine, comedian Jen Brister, and Georgia Takax.

Yes, All Our Relations was originally started to support 15 families in Gaza when the genocide started, but now supports 21 families and funds several mutual aid projects, including two seven-day food kitchens and two mobile food parcel delivery schemes, as well, feeding hundreds of families in Gaza every single day.

They've created an absolutely amazing thing.

And we feel like, you know, it's the off-menu podcast.

We talk about food and we are very lucky to eat wonderful food and have access to absolutely brilliant food all of the time.

And I think we need to talk about people who have access to no food, James.

Absolutely.

So if people would like to donate, please go to allourrelations.co.uk or look at the links in Jen Brister's bio on Instagram.

Every penny raised goes to supporting people in Gaza.

Thank you so much and enjoy the episode.

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Welcome to the Off-Menu podcast, Shredding the Carrot of Conversation, Shredding the Cabbage of the Internet, mixing it all up together in the mayonnaise of good times.

You got yourself a pod slaw.

Oh, it's the best pod slaw in town.

That's Ed Gamble.

My name is James Acaster.

We are the proprietors of a dream restaurant.

And every single week, we invite a guest in and we ask them their favourite ever start and main course dessert, side dish, and drink, not in that order.

And this week, our guest is

Nisha Katona.

Nisha Katona, a wonderful chef, wonderful broadcaster, a fellow judge on Great British Menu.

One of Ed's other friends

from his other life.

Yes, one of my other buddies.

She's weird.

She's absolutely brilliant.

I'm a bit jealous.

She runs the Mowgli restaurant chain, which we both love.

Yeah.

Love it.

So very excited to have Nisha in the studio today.

Also, we have a lot of fun with Nisha on the show, and she's Bonkers.

On Great British Menu?

Yes.

She's a proper laugh.

Yes.

So she's bonkers.

Yeah.

And we already know what you and Kerridge are like.

Yeah.

And Andy Oliver, to be fair.

Yeah.

This is everyone on Great British Menu.

This is the final piece of the puzzle.

Apart from all the brilliant crew and stuff.

and all the chefs who've been on.

Who should we have on from the crew?

We could have Big Chris.

yeah yeah i've heard about big chris big chris the cameraman yeah okay yeah we'll we'll have him on if enough people tweet off menu asking for big chris if we get a thousand tweets that are requesting big chris come on the pod we'll invite him on right a thousand we're not doing that because we will we won't get a thousand we will mate how many people listen to this every week

We're not having Big Chris on the podcast.

Nisha is a brilliant chef.

She's a proper laugh.

She also writes fantastic cookery books.

She's got 30-minute Mowgli.

She's got meat-free Mowgli.

And she has a new book available called Bold.

Bold.

Eat flavor twists to classic dishes.

Yes, so looking forward to talking to her about that.

But hopefully, she gets to talk about it and she doesn't say our secret ingredients.

Yeah, yeah.

Of course, if Nisha says a secret ingredient, an ingredient which we have deemed to be unacceptable, we will be forced to kick her out of the dream restaurant.

And the secret ingredient this week is

kangaroo meat.

Kangaroo meat.

Kangaroo milk.

Kangaroo milk.

Not the hair.

Not the hair, kangaroo hair.

Although I wouldn't like that either.

No.

Never had kangaroo, actually, James.

I've not had it.

I don't think I would want it.

No.

And I know that as a meat eater, then that is probably quite hypocritical.

It's been like, oh, that seems

bad.

Yeah, but they just look sort of mythical, don't they?

Yeah.

It feels a bit pointless to eat the kangaroo.

Yeah.

Probably pointless eating any of them.

You know what?

If it was offered to me, I probably would try it.

But that's the secret ingredient this week anyway.

Yeah, I'd be polite.

Yeah.

I'll eat it, but like, I wouldn't order it.

No.

No, thank you.

So let's hope she doesn't order that.

So let's get on with it.

This is the off-menu menu of Nisha Katona.

Welcome, Nisha, to the Dream Restaurant.

I'm very glad to be here.

Welcome, Nisha Kotona to the Dream Restaurant.

We've been expecting you for some time.

How amazing to be here.

Honestly, this is a massive deal because this is the podcast that all my kind of cool members of my family listen to.

Yes.

And the cool people who are okay, in fairness, there's one cool member of my family.

And I've got one, one cool person in my social group.

Yeah.

But they,

you know, it is like a cult thing, isn't it?

I mean, they religiously listen to every word of it and then they repeat what you said back to me at Nauseum.

Yes.

So it's a big deal.

Do they make us sound funny?

They,

do you know what they do?

It's about the bants, isn't it?

Yeah.

We say that, don't we?

Yes.

Yeah.

Googled that before.

Yeah.

But I did text you and say, expect no humour.

This is what really worries me.

So, no, it's a massive deal.

So thank you very much for having me on.

Who are the cool people you know that like it?

Okay, there's two.

Shout them out.

Okay.

Lucas Twigger.

Lucas Twigger.

Thomas Battley.

Thomas Battley.

Naeon Biswas.

Nae and Biswas.

But when they approached me, they said, are you actually kidding?

You need to pull out of this gig, basically.

Really?

Because you're so

essentially dull.

You're a chef,

restauranteur, a judge on the best food show on television.

And they're going to tell you you're not suited to this food podcast.

But you have funny people on this.

You have some

epic, epic guests.

So honestly, I do, I do.

I'm quite humbled to be on.

It's a really weird thing, you know, because I've only just started.

In fairness, I've only just really started doing TV.

So I'm not kind of famous in that way.

So I'm still at that level where people see you in the street.

And I don't know if you remember getting to that point where people see you in the street and they think they know you from their social life.

So they think, they go, oh my God,

where have we met?

Where have we met?

How do you deal with that?

So once I've learned a lesson, I was in a hospital, went to visit my uncle anyway, and a nurse came up and she said,

are you a doctor here?

I thought, buddy, I wish.

My dog's crying.

Sorry, I'm a goose.

No, don't shout.

Be quiet.

Just sit down.

And she said, are you a doctor here?

And I said, no.

And I sort of knew that she kind of seen me on this morning or whatever, GBM.

She said, why is it?

Are you a nurse?

I said, no.

And she said, physiotherapist, what is it?

And at that point, I thought, I'm going to say it.

I'm going to sound like an ass here, but I'm going to say it.

And I said, I do a little bit of TV.

And she said, no, it's definitely not that.

It's just that.

And I've never, ever, ever repeated that again.

So you just kind of play along and I just say, I've got one of those faces.

I had it at a wedding the other day.

One of the other guests came up to me and went, I swear I know you from somewhere and went, I'll be here all day.

You've got time to work it out.

She didn't work it out.

Joe Lysett texted me the other day letting me know that there was someone at Birmingham City Airport who was looking forward to coming to see me do a show in Kettering.

And he knows that because they came and told him they were looking forward to seeing him do a gig in Kettering.

And

that their girlfriend's a big off menu fan.

And then came back later and said, sorry, she's going to kill me if I don't get a photo.

I've got a selfie.

John told me they got a selfie together.

And then he said, he's going to send that to his girlfriend and he'll be back in about 10 minutes to explain to me what's gone wrong.

Did that, sent me a a photo of the two of them with doing the thumbs up if it had gone wrong.

I sent him back a photo of me doing a thumbs up and the guy had his photo taken with the photo of me with the photo.

Which gets worse and worse.

I can't believe that still happens to you two.

You know, at what point does it, it's a strange thing.

I'm like.

diminish before then.

Yeah.

You know, yeah, you.

What do you mean diminish?

Just in terms of the amount of TV that I do.

So I do GBM, and I do this morning.

And, you know, but I'm running restaurants as well.

So you've got to sort of pick your battles a bit.

A little bit a little bit, yeah.

And so maybe I do less.

I don't know.

But what's great is just doing the bits that you like, you know, just doing TV and things that you like.

I think you've got to start really, you know, being judicious about it.

Yeah, sure.

Goose is very curious about everything that's on the table.

You know, she just

should we put her out, do you think?

It's pretty funny to have her in here.

Okay, good.

Yeah, it is like having a primate.

So she's got the chicken strippers out, my friend.

So she just went into your bag, pulled out a whole box of chicken strippers.

So I'm going to give her another chicken stripper.

She just had one and it didn't really help because she still went back in your bag and I say it's made her worse than she was before when you gave her the chicken stripper.

The sad truth is, it's helping her bowel mobility, Benito.

So there'll come a point.

Good.

So we're getting the dog full of chicken strippers to help her bowel mobility.

And we're in a small closed studio.

Yeah.

Well, it's going to be a first for us, menu, but I can't wait for it to happen.

All of us choking on guffs.

So do you ever have dogs in here, people?

Have you had

to people?

Toast Benito

has been in here,

but yeah, he can't sit still at all.

Really?

I mean, either can goose, to be fair.

Do you find it distracting?

No, no.

Well, in a nice way.

Nice for a change, you know, to have a dog.

If you're not distracted, I'm not going to be distracted.

So this is amazing, just talking food.

It's such a rare treat, isn't it?

Love it.

Are you talking food all the time?

Well, it's funny because, so, yes, so I build restaurants is what I do.

And the menu is mine.

And it doesn't, I think it's really important not to keep changing it.

So there'll be the odd thing that changes or I tweak and what I tend to do is put thing if there's a dish that isn't selling it's dead interesting I put it out social media so I built this on social media and I know you think this is hilarious but it will literally my social media is all me pictures of the dogs pictures of the goats pictures of whatever can you hear a whinging

and so there was a dish for instance a cabbage dish that wasn't selling and it's an amazing dish the way the Indians cook cabbage is so clever anyway so I put it out social media cabbage dish isn't selling can you tell me why is it because it's not nice or what is it that I'm doing wrong with this And the audience came back and said, English people would never pay to eat something with the word cabbage in in a restaurant.

So I changed the name to Tangled Greens, and suddenly the sales went up.

Oh, wow.

It's so interesting.

You know, just having that really instant relationship with your audience.

Same with omelets.

So, cutie wraps, you'll know what a catty wrap is, where it's a chapati with an Indian omelette, masala omelette with onions and chili, and da da da da da nice.

And it wasn't selling.

And again, the feedback came back that keep it on, but just don't use the word omelette on your menu.

So it's that kind of tweaking so as a result so the tangled greens is actually cabbage it's cabbage yeah i'm never fucking eating that again what the hell did you think it was cabbage absolutely for god's sake do you think that cabbage does not photosynthesize

it's a green my love it's a bloody green what

you're serving cabbage in your restaurant what a rich

oh my god it's so good though that's the thing that is really nice yeah you don't have to you don't have to pretend to like it i love it we love we love your restaurants yeah if you ever take chart bombs off the menu you are in trouble you're sweet i'm gonna be furious.

Really?

You are very sweet.

Honestly, I built it for the chat bombs.

Bombs away.

Bombs away.

Because they're really pernicious little buggers.

So when you make a chat bomb, it will retain its shape for eight minutes and then it delequesters.

It just disintegrates.

So can you see building a commercial enterprise on the basis of something so

exacting was a real challenge?

And you can see why people don't really do them in restaurants.

So in India, you get them on street corners and they're sold, you know, a rupee and you get one.

So, they hand you one of these bonds because it's going to dissolve soon.

So, we have to do it obviously.

So, we've got one dedicated chat chef.

You come in, place your order, immediately that's made, immediately brought to your table so you can get them in and get the crunch.

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting, you know, starting in, you probably don't want to talk about restaurants, but starting an Indian restaurant and you realize what's quite hard on our list of things to talk about.

But it's the food, so you know, that curry house way of eating, which is fantastic, But those meat dishes that you can cook, like a big meat curry, and it keeps for a week.

And in fact, on day three is when it's at its very best, because when anything's got garlic or onion in it, it gets better and better.

But it's when you start introducing meat-free stuff, it's a lot more fragile.

And so, building restaurants on the basis of stuff that's freshly made every day, things like that cabbage dish, you can't keep it to the next day.

It's got to be made and then served and it's all of that.

So,

it was really, it was a tricky one, you know, approaching, approaching how you do this.

And you've got to be busy.

That's the horrible irony is you've got to be busy to make it work.

Had a meal in

Rome once where they did like chat bombs, like similar things.

And I was really excited to have.

This is probably one of the worst meals I've ever had.

It was a bad place.

It was really weird.

Really, friendly waiter, though.

And got the bombs and they were just full.

They just filled them with, because you know, sometimes they pour liquid in them.

They don't really do it at Mowgli, do they?

But they pour a little liquid in them.

And it was just like

mouthwash.

I wasn't expecting that taste.

I put it in a, well, that's disgusting.

I thought I eat a whole load of them.

It's really bad.

And then whatever I had for my main course, I can't remember what it was, it wasn't very nice, but I was so hungry that I just finished it.

And the waiter came over and he went, you shouldn't ever hear this at a restaurant.

He came over and went, hey, you finished it.

That's cool.

Really bad.

It's really bad.

And then at the end, I got a cocktail and it was the same mouthwash as the gold guppers.

It was the same thing.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Gosh,

you've got good nutty.

They're gold guppers there.

That's a whole different thing.

So it tasted, it wasn't that tamarind.

You should get that.

Golguppers and chapops are different things.

Yeah, so goldguppers have got the liquid in.

They've got a tamarind liquid.

They're dead cool.

So they should be dead, i.e.

they're a cool concept, aren't they?

Got this crisp out of shell.

And it is a tamarind, mint, sweet, sweet and sour kind of liquid that you pour in and pop it in.

So I started Mowgli with, they're called pani, which means water.

puri on the menu.

And remember, and this is no indictment on anywhere in the country, really, but I started Mowgli, what, nine years ago in Liverpool when Liverpool was getting the dirty burger movement.

So it was a real risk.

And that was just a bridge too far.

You know, something that goes into your mouth pops and it's liquid.

It's a bit pustular, isn't it?

You know, so you've got to read your audience.

And so I pulled them.

I might reinstate them, but I think we've just got a little bit of a way to go before there's your reaction is pretty typical.

Okay, you were offended by the taste of the kind of Listerine interior, weren't you?

No, I've had them elsewhere delicious.

Yeah.

With the liquid in.

Absolutely amazing.

It was this particular place.

Trust me.

Really?

Trust me.

But you're saying that with the liquid, it's a bit pustulous.

With the liquid, it's a bit pustulous.

Like yogurt into your.

But there's a lot of...

It's more pustulous, me.

And I watch Dr.

Pimple Popper.

It's very, very Dr.

Pimple Popper, isn't it?

And I love that.

I think you're anchored by...

Oh my gosh, I'm supposed to not be making this food sound horrendous, but you're anchored by the the chickpeas.

Yes.

I think by virtue of the fact that you've got a bit of rubble going on in there.

I've seen Dr.

Pimple Popper videos where there's bits of rubble coming out as well.

Also, I think it's nice that you do a different spin on it.

There's a different,

I can think that that's where I'd go to get that particular thing, it's Mowgli.

I couldn't really go anywhere else to get something that's like the chat bombs.

Yeah, remotely.

Yeah,

we trademarked the word when I started it, trademarked the word chap bombs.

Because you're right, it is, it's every, every person makes them differently.

Every street corner's got a different permutation of ingredients that goes in it.

Is that the only reason you go there?

Is that the only dish you have?

Yeah, I don't know what else you do.

I say,

I go with a full amount of chat pumps to myself and don't sit me on a fucking swing.

Do you not like the swings?

I was on the swings once and I lasted two minutes.

I was like, sorry, man, I can't do the swing.

I can't do this.

And every time I go into a Mowgli and someone's sat on a swing, I'm like, look,

the swings are very popular.

Yeah.

They're not for, by the way listeners in every Mowgli has a swing.

Has a swing seat.

There's only one or two that don't have a swing seat.

So swing seat.

They're not for us, Nisha.

The swings are for the Huns.

Yeah, they're for the Huns.

You're getting the Huns in.

They're sitting on the swing.

They're putting it on Instagram.

You know what you're doing.

Do you know what's dead interesting?

Across the country, the swing seats sell out.

So if you want to book, people want to book the swing seats across the country.

The only city where people can complain about going on the swings is Glasgow.

And we cannot work out why that is.

Really?

Really interesting.

Because they're they're legends aren't they?

Yeah, you approve of that don't you?

They are not doing it for the grand.

I love it.

Gotcha for me because the reason I put them in is because so I design every single Mowgli, every brick of every Mowgli and behind my grandmother's house in Baranasi, there is like a broken down temple.

You know, it's all broken down brick.

It's got vines, it's got monkeys.

And we used to go down and sort of play amongst this and you're swinging off the vine.

You know, it's very jungle book, although this has got nothing to do with the jungle book, because of course that came to us, didn't it?

And so that's what it's that feeling of swinging it makes you feel james like a little girl well that's lovely i tell you you don't want to feel like a little girl perhaps i guess i didn't on that particular evening

i don't want to feel like a little girl but you know food was lovely yeah thank you very much

i don't just get the cheese on toast i get that yeah i i join what i try something different every time you you try something different every time yeah yeah yeah no it's really good of you to even go i was in liverpool recently and uh i was there for a week and i went to moguli twice yeah so i'm building outside of, you know, I've got one in Charlotte Street.

Yeah.

And so I'm at the juncture now where I think, okay, do I do more in, do I do, you know, build a bit more of a sort of London empire?

And for every one Mowgli I build in London, it means there are two outside of London you can't build because the rents here are extortionate.

Here being London, you know, recruitment's harder.

So here in London, 90% of front-of-house staff or, you know, back-of-house and front-of-house hospitality staff were European.

Then we had Brexit, didn't we?

Didn't we?

Whereas, you know, the rest of the country, we're only 17% European.

So there's so many reasons why I can't keep building.

Forget London, though, man.

It's great.

Like, as a touring comic, I really liked the fact that, like, Mowgli was, like, around the country.

I couldn't get it in London.

Yeah.

Because I'm on tour.

I can look forward to it.

I want to get a Mowgli at this place when I want to go there.

So, like, I ain't never going to that Charlotte Street one.

Exactly.

Don't be saying that.

Nisha's got a lot of restaurants and an increasing amount of restaurants.

There's a running joke on Great British Menu where every time we have a lunch break or somebody go away for an hour we go back into the judging chamber Tom Kerrige will always go what you been up to Nisha open another three fucking restaurants he's a cheeky bastard it's the same old trope every time

so interesting Jay because you you I mean obviously you watch Ed on Great British Menu and so we're this new judging panel of course do you watch it yeah yeah every now and again yeah he checks in do you just check in every self and yeah yeah I'm bad at watching a full series but like when I'm I'll see oh it's on and I'm and I'm in yeah I'll watch it's because you're best mates on it you know would you not tune in for that yeah I'm doing it fast yeah yeah yeah yeah but it was a funny one wasn't it when we started because we're all so the three of us are so different we couldn't be more different could we could we in terms of everything about us

in the testosterone yes but

I'm proper but proper manly man

I think you've got similar relationships to food but when we interviewed Kerridge you had a lot in common yeah I think so that was before you did great with British menu was that before before?

GBM, really?

Oh, it was years ago we had Kevidge on this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Let's talk about your new book, Nisha.

Oh, very sweet.

You've got lots of books out, of course.

I've got books, yeah.

Meet Free Mowgli.

Yeah, Meet Free Mowgli, 30 Minute Mowgli.

30 Minute Mowgli, and now Bold.

Now, Bold is dead exciting because it's got a beautiful cover

and the colours of the cover match my bangles that I wear all the time, all the time, all the time.

But

more importantly, it's a bit, it's classy, James.

I don't often do classy.

Can I?

Oh, God, love, no.

It's classics.

it's classics with a really interesting ingredient which is pretty much the way i cook so that you know kind of the crucible yeah in which my cook culinary habits and skills have been formed yeah well you know i was born in this country yeah raised by two indian parents obviously and so when english food did get through our door it was immediately adulterated.

So never, you know, do you remember Findus Krispy Pancakes?

You're too young for that, yeah.

So they'd come in, but my mother would flip them open, a bit of garam masala inside, flip them back shut.

There was never anything that wasn't in some way pimped.

Yeah, this is not about this.

Actually, I'm not doing bowl justice.

Bowl is the recipes I'm

one of the recipes isn't Finnish Krispie pancakes with garam.

Can I tell you how tempted I was to do that?

You should have done that.

That's totally authentic.

You know, those lamb grill steaks that were made from the sweepings up from the abattoir floor,

you know, a little bit of masala paste on those, those would go under the grill, that kind of thing.

Typical Indian pimping.

But this is not that.

This is, gosh, things like, oh my gosh, pineapple and anchovy croquettas and things like just those combinations of flavours.

And I think what happens is when you have been raised in such a subversive way when it comes to flavours and ingredients,

your whole approach to food is boundless.

So you just think in this really naive, open-minded way.

So I'm constantly experimenting with, you know, things that sticks, flavours that work together, a bit flavor thesaurus-y kind of in that way.

And that's what bold is, is it's being bold, you know, brave enough to just, it's kind of that trust me on this, you know, add this to this.

So that's bold but but but the Mowgli books are out there as well and that's kind of the whole reason that I moved into food is there writ large in those books because I was never a foodie you know I was a I was raised to be a barrister or a doctor My brother's a doctor, you know, that's what happens.

My parents' doctors, you've got to be a doctor.

Otherwise, nobody will marry you or whatever, or you'll have no social.

If you don't, if you're not a doctor, you will fall off the face of Britain is honestly what we think or what we thought.

So I was a barrister for 20 years, a child protection barrister.

But what I realized as I started to cook Indian food is it's dead exciting is that all Indian food is predicated only on three spices and two of those never change.

It's this real Archimedes moment.

So the two that never change are turmeric and chili.

So every curry has got turmeric and chili in it.

Tell me if you're going to doze off, just give me some warning.

If you want another diet tough, don't you worry.

Okay.

But depending on the genre of ingredient, that third spice changes.

So for instance, with the cabbage, brassicas you would use mustard seed turmeric and chili with say root veg you would use cumin turmeric and chili so suddenly you realize that there are these very distinct rules that are time tested and flawless that have been passed down and so i became quite evangelical about teaching this it's this three spice formula and that's how i started the books and that's how i started as a barrister i was teaching 10 years while I was still a barrister and then this entrepreneurial thing bites where you think okay could I flog wow food that isn't you know the way that indians actually eat at home not not kind of the curry house fare but how we when the curtains are drawn and you're getting out that geriatric cabbage from the back of the veg rack and what you do with it and how virtuosic and light and fresh and all of that that's amazing i didn't know you were a barrister and then did this complete pivot that that's that's pretty it's mad yeah did you recognize that's pretty impressive I

and I'll tell you what's impressive honestly what's impressive is that I think I've lived this long and retained continents that I think is impressive because I'm old.

You know, that I think is impressive.

Honestly.

Do you want me to tell the story?

I find it very hard to keep continence when I'm with Ed and Tom.

We were in the reception of a hotel, and I can't remember what Nisha was laughing at.

We probably didn't even know.

She absolutely lost it laughing.

And then she wet herself in the reception of a hotel.

That was such an inspiring story.

Being a barrister and then

realising the free spice rule and being able to completely change your entire life.

And Ed's just responded with the fact you want to piss yourself to the hotel.

Do you know, James, do you know what it was?

It was simply Ed saying, Nisha, where's your room?

Sending me to my room because I've died a late night.

It got to the point, and it still does at GBM, that he just, even if I'm in the same room as him, I find it very hard to control my

continents.

It's so, it's just the way he feels.

How many times has this happened?

Did you ever find him this far?

I find him so.

How many times has this happened?

Honestly, I think I struggle with a lot when I'm with it.

But all he has to do, I remember he just

walked into a room and pushed the door open in his kind of Ed gangly way.

And I really lost continence again.

Pissed yourself again.

Yeah, a little bit.

A little bit.

Do you know what I mean?

Because he walked into a room.

Just because he walks into a room, that's a gift, isn't it?

That's like an Eric Morcombe thing surely that was what it was like being earnie wise you are the only person who reacts like that to me nisha yeah i think ed's found the person he wants to write his obituary

all he had to do was walk into a room yeah real eric morcomb funny as job it's so bad because every time we get a comedian on or anyone on as a guest i do spend a lot of time saying don't you think ed's dead funny don't you she tried to get me in the uh new series of inside number nine when we had steve pemerson on i did you should put ed in your show

Steve, please don't miss

your response.

When you said, What room are you in?

You should have said number nine.

That could have been the episode.

No, but obviously, I'm so sorry to interrupt the inspiring story of someone who's doing fantastic work as a barrister and then is now doing fantastic work within the world of food.

But you did once piss yourself in the room of a hotel.

It wasn't a fully fledged, you know what I mean?

It wasn't a deluge.

Fully fledged.

But I did need the loo.

I did have to then run to the loo.

Yeah.

Obviously, it was enough that they knew it.

They knew it had happened.

We've got, haven't we got good chemistry on that?

Yes.

I think we've got good chemistry on that programme.

We're a very good team together, I think.

I've been trying to get some chemistry going with this fucking leader.

Wet yourself a little bit.

get on board

but it was weird because i'm sort of sitting there like this kind of dowager aunt between the two of you i don't know where you're at i am just alance

i am talking about that that, honestly, being.

I can just imagine that.

Honestly.

So, first of all, I think it's really amazing that they chose me.

That honestly, I was really honored by that because this is, I'll tell you the thing about it is it's always been very Michelin-starred kind of food.

It's very haught cuisine, very, very Western classical, hasn't it?

Yeah, I mean, that's what you think of it.

And the truth is, that's not the way this nation eats anymore.

So, it's pretty broad-minded of them to get someone in whose expertise is more world, you know.

So, I go around the world.

I mean, I mean, literally around the world learning how to cook because I'm obsessed with it.

So, first of all, I was very appreciative of that.

And then it's...

It wasn't really kind of them to get you on because it's like, by the time it means you're overly qualified for the job.

I'm overly qualified

for family law.

It's a bit different.

I think they would say they're lucky to have it.

Before you, there was like those two old dead guys.

They were amazing.

And they are such nice guys.

And they were amazing.

And you look at that and you think, okay, that's what it is to be a true foodie, you know.

But then the dynamics.

and then it took a, didn't it take a little while for us to just work out how we

yeah, you always say this?

I thought we hit the ground running, but we didn't, we completely didn't, because basically I thought, first of all, I've just got to say whatever Tom says.

What, copy Tom?

Copy Tom, really.

Okay, and then making fun of my own restaurants.

I just get Ed to like me more by I just ask him about tattoos as I did 10 minutes ago.

Yeah, yeah, I did notice you did it.

And you say tattoos.

Yeah, it's tattoos.

Anyone who says tattoos, I know, isn't really interested.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What are you meant to say?

No, I think everyone else in the world says tattoos.

Tattoos.

Not tattoos.

Have you any new tattoos, Edward?

Have you any new tattoos?

Have you seen anything on the films recently?

I'd say to get him to like me.

Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure he likes you.

Yeah, I liked you instantly, Disha.

Yeah.

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Well, we'll start with still or sparkling water as we always do.

Gosh, I forgot about that.

I forgot I was here for this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can tell.

I can tell you forgot.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Still or sparkling water, Ed.

What would you have?

No, we're not going to be there.

No, it's about me.

So can I tell you, honestly, I feel quite strongly about this because I don't like still water very much.

Because,

so I used to go to India a lot when I was very little, a lot, a lot, a lot.

And I spent a lot of time with very, very bad diarrhea.

Very bad diarrhea.

Because I used to drink the water that came from whatever, the buckets in the village that were kept.

The water was kept then in a clay pot because they thought that cooled it.

But what it in fact did, did it, it just made the water evaporate down into the microbes.

so i literally would come back and i was often hospitalized it was that bad right so for me still water smacks of that stuff that you put in drip bags in hospital it's like interstitial fluid it's just it's the stuff that you would squeeze out of a dressing yeah wound dressing not a dressing gown okay both actually do you know what i mean i have no fondness for for still water

it's the most disgusting description of still water we've had on the podcast ever you know the worst we've asked that question so many times and you start to think we've had all the answers we're going to have.

But it reminds you of interstitial fluid that someone squeezed from a wound dressing.

It's a little bit like that.

Do you know, like they say that a durian fruit smells like an old wound dressing?

That's the definition.

Stinky fruit.

Stinky fruit.

That's the definition.

I always think of just still water as that's, you know, it's the stuff of drip bags.

It's the stuff you mop up, you know.

It's a nursing term, I think, still.

But then sparkling.

You see, now the thing with sparkling, can I tell you this?

I am very careful about my teeth, James.

I'm a very careful person when it comes to my teeth because I think, I used to think dentists get paid.

Your mum's not a dentist, Benito, is she?

No.

By the filling.

By the filling.

Yeah, no, my dad does.

Oh, my dad.

No one is related to that.

No one's related to that.

Now I love them and I think they're fantastic.

But there was a point I was raised to believe that they were paid by the filling.

So you don't go to the dentist.

So I'm really careful.

And I hadn't had a filling till I was 35 or whatever.

So really careful about my teeth now have you seen the mallum granite pavements do you know what i'm talking about no obviously not in mallum

yorkshire yeah they're called the granite granite what's it called the granite paves are you googling it the great they're basically carbonic acid that is what it does to rock yes so still so pure sparkling water in my view just completely erodes it you're going to end up with the you know elizabeth i teeth sure drinking pure sparkling water so i find it too acidic i just find it kind of fuses your frontal lobe to your eyebrows you know it's just okay strips your mucous membranes out i just find it too acidic so i like to go a half and half yeah so that's true you take the two things that you don't like and put them together well you have you know it you have to be polite don't you and i put the two but i have to say when i put the two things together they're perfect you're getting that lovely palate cleansing you know you're getting that little bit of acidity just a little wake me up but it's also hydrating you i don't drink a lot of it you know

and that is i've witnessed that happen you witnessed the half and half when a runner comes in and says would you like some water?

It's a little sparkling.

And Nisha says, Yes, I'll have half and half, please.

I think half and half's a thing, though, isn't it?

Surely people do that.

It's the first time maybe we've had that on the pocket.

I mean, maybe someone else has said it at some point,

but not as a thing they already do.

I think they've probably riffed it and gone, let's go for half and half.

No, really.

I think you're the first person who that's your pre-existing preference.

Especially the first person who wants half and half and half of...

the drink they want is something they refer to as something from a drip bag and the other half is something they've seen rot away a pavement.

Yeah,

this is the corner.

This is the corner that you dwell in, honestly, in this world.

That's it.

You're cornered.

There's a two things that you're offered.

You know, they don't offer you the nice stuff, do they?

Whatever that might be.

What would you prefer?

Like, this is your dream meal.

Am I doing the drinks now?

Well, what would you like?

Do you know what?

Can I talk about what I'd like by way of drinks?

Because right now, I'd love it.

I'm going to have a slurp of my latte.

One second.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it.

Yep.

You don't have to maintain eye contact with me while you're drinking the latte, but fair enough.

Really intense eye contact then.

While slurping latte from a straw.

Iced latte.

It's coming up my nose iced latte now because of you, James.

Yeah, yeah.

Funny than Ed Gambling.

Funnier than Ed Gamble.

Liquids are coming out at some point.

Really cute.

At that point in the meal, when they offer you still a sparkling water, other people have selected other things, right?

Have they?

Yeah.

Other people have said no water, just passed on it.

When we did our dream menus, Ed and I, Ed had a Guinness at this point.

I had Corst and Press.

So that's a cracking drink.

People can't, yeah, is it?

It is a cracking drink.

Yeah.

Because, you know, there's no added sugar to that.

Oh, I know.

You're keeping your teeth intact and you're giving your mouth a party.

It's only lightly sparkling.

And it's only like, there's not too much, and it's lovely.

It's the taste of all those childhood sweets

in a drink that's going to be kind to your dentician.

Preaching to the choir.

I tell you what, if you poured Corst and Press on a block of granite, it would say, Thank you very much.

I think it would.

I think you're going to get crocuses there.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, dear lord.

Quite a few crocuses.

Oh, heaven.

Can I tell you what I love?

Yes.

Do you know duck soup on in Soho?

Oh, yeah.

Duck soup on the main, but yes.

Please go because of the drinking vinegars that they do there.

Have you had the drinking vinegar?

They are so good, James.

My gosh, if you.

There's nothing like it, is there?

Isn't it so clever?

Why has it taken us to 2023

for this he'll he'll edit it out why is it taking us to 2023 uh gamble for us to get to drinking vinegars in restaurants because they are so good do you know there are some drinks and you'll appreciate this being a causten press fan yeah where you drink it and you feel your i don't know like your cells putting their arms out and hugging whatever you've just put in your body do you know what i mean you get it with something but with with crisp drinks there is nothing like it and that's what these drinking vinegars are like in duck soup so they're slightly they can be fruity they could be strawberry they could could be cherry, they could be whatever you know it might be.

And I think it's essentially something like apple cider vinegar with some kind of a fresh fruit, yeah, or water.

It could be rhubarb, whatever.

Yeah, um, so I don't think it's kombucha-based, they're not kombucha-based things, they are just drinking vinegars.

So, drinking vinegars is what I would love to go for.

That sounds amazing, yeah.

Really?

It's gonna, you know, because duck soup put the duck soup drinking vinegars.

Can I go with that as a kind of an opening gambit just in terms of drinks?

Yeah, and do you get like a few of them?

Is that how they bring them out?

Well, no, no, no, no, it's not, we're not messing around here.

This is not a little taster.

Let's wean you into the idea of them.

This is served in a tumbler like a old-fashioned.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

With an ice.

This is a drink and you will enjoy it.

And it is so very good.

I can't tell you.

But it's better than that whole, you know, water with the crushed ice and lemon and all that.

That sounds it.

I love this.

What flavor do you want?

Is there a flavor that you can't do?

I like an artificial cherry flavor because you just shared your Pepsi Max cherry

maximum taste.

You want cherry-flavoured drinking vinegar.

A little bit of that.

That would be smashing.

Or plum.

I love a plum drink.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, there's plum wines you get in Japanese restaurants.

Very nice.

Very nice.

Really good.

So I'll go a plum, a plum drinking vinegar if that's all right.

Plum drinking vinegar.

You know what I mean?

Yeah,

oh, smoke.

Papa bread.

Papa.

Now, I'm sorry to say, Sindhu V told me that I've got to say papado bread and not papa dum or bread.

She told me that, but then Nish Kumar's mum contested this with Sindhu and was like, absolutely not.

I grew up saying Papa Dom.

And then the two of them had a very long discussion.

I don't know what they agreed on, but I said at the live episode that I would say it

in an episode, I'd say Papa Dubby.

Yeah, this is the thing is that word is so ludicrous.

I can't take it.

It's just such a stupid word.

Papa Doms means nothing to me.

It's just a silly word.

It's like taking a bread from the subcontinent and adding the...

doms to it.

It just is a silly word.

As Cindu would say, we say papa.

So who was it?

Nisha's mum that said, no, we say papadom.

Nisha's mum said, I grew up saying that, what are you talking about?

And then they went off and they had a lot of...

She grew up in Croydon.

Where did she grow up in Croydon?

Where did she grow up?

Moved to Croydon.

Birkenhead, did she?

Yeah.

Did you know that she moved to Croydon?

No, I did not.

That's where they actually moved.

Yeah, they did.

Yeah, yeah.

Actually joking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You couldn't make it up, could you?

But I actually don't know, because I know that Nisha's dad grew up in Carol though, but I don't know Nisha's mum where.

Where she's from originally.

But poppadums, I've never, honestly, I've never heard Indians say poppadums.

But that might be my tribe of Indians.

So we say papa.

But that's that's not the reason that I would choose bread.

And I will choose bread.

Oh, yeah, your microphone's pointing at you.

I've taken my earrings out.

I've taken my earrings out.

Clank to that person.

Do you want me to pull my hair up as well, for God's sake?

It's not my facial hair.

Was it my facial hair on spongy?

You were doing this, Marisha.

You were speaking like this.

Yeah, it was into your name.

Doesn't sound like you've got one of those things for people who smoke too much.

None of the characters on South Park, doesn't it?

Funny character.

Into the end there.

So you don't say.

I would go bread.

No, we don't say.

We say papa.

But the thing about pop-a-doms.

I'm even saying that wrong.

Papa.

Yeah.

Well, do you know what?

There are so many, you cannot, honestly, this is what it's like to be Indian.

You can never get it right.

Because there are so many languages, there are so many whatever.

But for me, that whole pop.

I tell you what it is, honestly, James.

So as a little Indian growing up in this country, people would shout that at you across a playground.

Do you know what I mean?

You know, you spent your whole time dodging stones or the word pop a dom or whatever it might be so suddenly it's not a wetter of the appetite you know nor are those kind of steel dubbers of doom do you know what i'm talking about those little metal canisters that smell of halitosis and horse sweat you know what i mean no no i don't know before anyway you meant yeah with the onions the little metal canisters yeah the the chutneys the chutneys the little the thing you can

spin it yeah you take a little mini lazy susan type cakes yeah yes you know and suddenly it smells like a GP's breath.

No.

No.

Quite like it.

You know what I mean?

They're lovely.

I'm sure they're lovely.

But the thing about fresh onions, you need fresh onions.

It's never as fresh as you want it to be.

So I will go bread if you don't mind.

So papas, they're lovely, I'm sure.

Not really that interesting because I want the...

the chewy, stretchy bread thing that you have.

So can I just tell you a little bit?

So I was brought up by two Hindus.

So I was brought up by a Hindu.

My father was a Hindu priest.

And so the way that your food is formed, your food taste is formed, is about all that has been forbidden for the whole of your childhood.

So many things are forbidden.

So as Hindus, you're primarily, because my father was a priest, you're primarily completely meat-free.

And it's not just that, it's the way that Indians eat.

So they believe...

that things like garlic and onion are passion or heat-giving.

And so those are forbidden.

So if you become a widow in India, here's the thing.

You can never again have garlic or onion or even

meat or fish.

Well, fish is a bit different.

You can't, you shave your head.

My grandmother had a head shaved.

You wear wipes for the rest of your life.

As a widow, you know, everything is about what thou shalt not do, you know.

And one of the other things that we don't have is that whole baking culture.

You know, we don't.

So we make flatbreads on a pan, but the oven was used to store tins of stuff.

You know, you put your roasting tins in the oven.

You don't bake in the oven.

So that whole thing about having bread.

and the elasticity, we don't have anything in our culture that's got that kind of slithering elasticity to it, that bounce.

Because meat, for instance, has got to be killed.

It's cooked till it's dead twice.

It's cooked till it's really done.

You'd never have a pink chop.

You'd never have scallops or squid necessarily, unless you lived in certain areas in the coastal regions, you know.

So all of these things that are chewy and gelatinous and a bit elastic, I am totally drawn to.

I was never allowed to have chewing them or bubblegum.

So I used to look with it, you know, like in Elf, the film, I used to honestly, I swear, look with envy at those blobs of bubblegum on the pavement.

But you didn't eat them.

I didn't.

I was very tempted.

Yeah, so I thought that was where that was going.

James, I was really, and you know what?

In my memory, I felt like I did.

Yeah.

In my memory, I'm saying it now.

On is this live TV?

Yes.

Yes.

So I must have been about six or seven, but I was banned these things.

And I remember the taste of bubblegum.

And I think I'd seen some and I'd pulled it off like Will Farrell and eaten it.

And it was heaven.

My God, it was heaven.

Benito's eyes go.

so you're saying are you saying that you did do that i'm saying that as a as a young child i remember doing that honestly so we've gone from no i didn't do that to yes i definitely did that

james it's so it's so bad but this is why you don't forbid things to children honestly this is seriously because nor was i ever allowed i've not gotten to my bread yet yeah so shut me up in a minute you know but nor was i ever allowed to eat beef or anything with any beef goods.

So therefore I never had a Yorkshire pudding.

So I got to uni and then I'd have steak every single day.

It's all of that.

So it was whatever was forbidden me, I would go crazy with.

That's why bread is such an amazing thing because it's that elasticity.

And the bread I'd go for,

if I can go for a couple, but basically I'd like a basket.

I'd like Brazilian cheese bread.

Yes.

Oh my God.

Do you love it?

I absolutely love it.

Yeah.

I went to Brazil once and just that's pretty much all I ate.

Didn't know you went to Brazil.

Yeah.

Many years ago.

Are you just making that up?

No?

To get James to like you?

No.

James likes me already.

Well, he likes me the most he's ever going to like me.

Yeah.

We've hit the ceiling now, so yeah, there's no point trying any harder.

I could still like you more.

The panda panda cajole, right?

Exactly.

Oh my god.

It's so good.

Do you think you get a bread roll?

The first time I had it, it blew my mind.

You think you've got a bread roll, you tear the bread roll open.

It's quite a thin amount of bread, really, isn't it?

And then it's just got the fat bit of cheese in the middle.

middle.

Panda Caijo.

Yeah.

Caijo.

Oh, off week.

I may be saying it wrong, but I thought we're talking about a panda with a big problem.

I'm going to get it on my messages because one of my friends is Brazilian and she was telling me how to say it.

She did a message to me.

And this is how you say it.

You ready?

Well, you had that.

I mean.

Ponjikajian.

Just so the listener knows, there wasn't any editing done there to speed up that process.

They should have sported up immediately.

Friends saying that.

Yeah, and then I've gone on to, you know, how we're going to fix the the bathroom mirror but that's honestly yeah that's my whatsapp message is um but you know what's interesting about it is it's tapioca tapioca or cassava flour so there's no flower so I don't know what you had where there was a cheesy mass in the middle but it is entirely elastic isn't it it's unleavened the place to try honestly James try it at it's so in seven dials there's a new little cerve

opener you know

ceviche yeah so it's a Brazilian and they do them there these little round ones but I remember I used to at the age of 14 15 that was a long time ago.

I'm not being facetious, it was a long time ago, but Neil's Yard used to have these little different sort of food stalls in, and one of those had Brazilian cheesebread.

And I would come down, I kid you not, we had friends in London in Crouch End.

At the age of 14, I would come down for two things to London.

One was to go and buy this Brazilian cheesebread that was like, it was like cheesy bready chewing them.

Oh, God, it was heaven.

So good.

And the other was to go to Harrod's and buy Biltong, you know, Biltong,

you know, dried South African African beef, because it was the only place you could get those things.

But again, it's like having a kind of dog chew.

It's having a beefy dog chew.

So that would be my bread.

But I'd also, could I also have

in the bread basket, because this is important, Irish soda bread.

Yeah.

Irish soda bread.

Do we, are we, are you with me?

It's barely bread.

It's so crumbly.

It's held together by the Holy Spirit, I think.

And it crumbles like communion.

And the only thing that can hold it together is the masses of cold butter that you put on it.

Oh, yeah, I love it.

So, so good.

And it's got that lovely milky, cuddly aroma to it.

Stouty flavour.

And if it's really like a dream restaurant, the inside of a croissant.

What?

Just the inside?

I know what you mean.

I absolutely know what you mean.

You know.

There's a crispy bit on the outside, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

And then there's a pillowy, stretchy bit on the inside.

It's that yellow, buttery.

So if you're lucky, you get one, you pull the end off.

Do you know what a Savoyatelle is?

You know, that it's like an Italian pastry that looks like a lobster's tail.

I think you pronounce it savoiatelle.

Okay.

Yeah, they stuff it through potter.

And yeah,

so you get the end of the croissant that's like that, so crispy, crispy, but then you get that ribbon of stretchy yellow.

That would be my dream if we could have a dream, you know, bread basket.

I'd have that.

Good love of croissants.

Absolutely.

And you want, you know, the end of the croissant to cut your gums because it's all right to cut your gums on pastry.

It's not all right to cut your gums on something like sourdough.

I've got no fondness for the sourdough.

And I know I should, and I know I should, because I think that puts me into the sort of culinary middle classes, but I ain't ever going to get there at.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm just never going to get there.

There are some, it's so weird.

You know, it kind of put in my head.

It's like I'm kind of that little Indian in brown cord or with facial hair or whatever on a chopper bike.

Do you remember those?

You're too old, too young.

I do know what a chopper bike is.

You've lost me with the analysis.

What are you talking about?

So what I'm saying is in terms of culinary,

culinary terms, it's like we were there and you'd look at, you know, the way that people were eating around you and this appreciation of things like whatever it might be, good breads,

baked goods,

wines.

You know, they'd have parents that were exposing the people around us to these amazing things.

And we were going home to Barge's and, you know.

bells, whiskey, or whatever it might be.

Johnny Walker black label was the height of elegance for us back then.

So there are so many things that just are sort of unreachable for me.

There are these ladders that I kind of look up and sourdough is at the top of one.

And I've got to get there, but I do not appreciate the bleeding gums, the broken molars, the smell of thrush that comes from them.

Not just not with it.

It doesn't sound like...

You're saying you don't want to go for the culinary middle classes, but you know, five minutes ago, you told a story about going to Harrods to buy Bilton, right?

Makes no sense to say that.

Yeah, and it just seems that really you don't like sourdough because you don't like how it tastes or smells.

I really, do you know the thing is like it is attainable to you, you don't clearly like it.

Okay, strip all of that cultural reference away.

But the truth is just, yeah, I don't appreciate it and I need to because it is so good for you and it is so good and it's such a worthy bread.

I love this bread basket that you've got though.

Yes.

Brazilian cheese bread inside of a croissant Irish soda bread.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Are you going to shout Papadon's bread again or is that done now?

It's done now.

I've done it.

Yeah, great.

Do you shout anything else?

No.

I might do if you like, you know, if you make me angry angry at any point.

How would you make you angry?

By choosing a savoury instead of a dessert at the end.

It's not to be said for a nice cheeseburger, isn't it?

Gosh, let's see where we go with this.

Dear God, I'll hold on to my seat.

James.

Well, listen, I think I'm all right.

I used to eat chewing gum off a railing.

So

I think you're going to choose a dessert.

I don't even think it was a railing.

I've got a horrible memory of sitting on the pavement in Skelmersdale, which is where I was raised.

I mean, it's getting more and more specific.

I'm going to do it.

Each time you return to it, it, you definitely did it.

So, can I tell you?

So, I was telling this story to someone because it does mean a lot because it's that whole chewing thing, you know, and how drawn I am to things like that.

And they said, You must never ever tell anyone that you did that.

And here I am, yes, with a microphone.

Yeah.

But I was very young.

I remember being very young.

And then I remember thinking that is why you don't prohibit things.

You know what I mean?

There's a lesson in it.

I hope Benito can put together just a little edit to go out on its own of the progression of this story: I didn't do it, I may have done it, I did do it, it was in this specific place.

A friend told me not to tell you this.

Your dream starter, let's get into your dream menu proper.

Oh my gosh, can I tell you my dream starter?

Yes, yeah, but it's a pasta course, but that's fine, isn't it?

Yep, so it's kind of

chase, a bit of a chase of a cul of a culinary dragon for me, this and it is pasta ayarici damare so it's it's pasta spaghetti with sea urchins have you had this no no haven't you but i've had sea urchins do you love sea urchins i'm not sure yeah i know exactly what you mean because they can be a little bit iodiney can't they they can be a bit iodine y and i don't easily get creeped out by the way things look but i'd say that's on the top end of me getting creeped out by how things look yeah um i totally get that and it's just very strange so this was about 15 years ago and it's a very Sicilian thing.

And my husband is a classical guitarist and he was playing a concert in Sicily.

So he played this concert and we went for a meal as you often do with the organizers and there was this pasta dish served and it was simple.

So all it is is spaghetti, but a really good, not an angel hair, but a fine spaghetti.

And it's sea urchins and it's a little bit of garlic and I think it's olive oil and you don't mess with it much more than that.

So a bit of salt.

You don't then put chili flakes on or anything like that.

It's really simple.

but the flavor of that i can't tell you because it was nutty so it's a little bit nutty it tastes of the sea though and it's a tiny little bit kind of i'm not sweet is too strong a word but it was completely all things that you would want on the palate it didn't what's interesting though it doesn't have that iodini flavor you know it doesn't have that slight medicinal edge that it can have you know sea urchin and I have gone back because I do this and I'm sure you do this, but I will go back to a country just to find that food again.

And very sweetly channel 4 sent me out to do a taste of Italy which is a whole program on Italian food which is amazing that they chose me again honestly I really do mean that it was incredible to do that and went searching for this Richie Damare and I've never tasted it as good as that again but I mean do you not have a culinary dragon that you chase have you tasted something that you tried to get again it's never been the same quite often I've found that things aren't the same just because it's not that night really do you think so even in like environment like the environmental factors matter so much I think.

Yeah.

But I don't think there's anything that I'm like hunting down like that.

If I go back to the exact same place,

it usually doesn't let me down.

But if I'm trying to find a certain dish in other, yeah, if I have it somewhere, it's incredible.

And then if I ever see it on the menu, I'll do it again, it's never quite as good because it's at a different

restaurant, different location or whatever, and they don't quite do it as well.

And you're trying to find it as good as that.

Yeah.

I think I've had stuff like that.

Yeah.

This was, I mean, this was extraordinary.

And you have it again, and it is amazing.

And I would really, really, honestly, I'd recommend, if if you see it on a menu,

I would really recommend it.

And then you, there's just something about the way that it moistens the spaghetti and the, you know, you kind of get there like, you become like sort of slippery mermaids' tails, this spaghetti.

It's just this immersion into everything that's nutty and sea-like.

Oh my gosh, really good.

But can I do an honorable munchon?

Yes.

Really pleased with yourself for some time.

I feel so great.

I literally

enunciate that as well.

So an honorable munchenson is the green prawn ceviche speedboat bar.

Yeah.

That you pointed me to.

So good.

Yeah.

That, right.

I've had that really recently because, again, Ed.

Yeah.

Ed probably is giving the same recommendations to everyone, apparently.

No, you weren't there before me.

Oh, you did.

Tom, this is the character of the title.

The green prawn ceviche was absolutely incredible.

That was my favorite thing of the night.

I made a lot of good things that night.

But that was, and also, I was in a really lucky part of the table, there's a big group of us.

And in my corner, there was some people who like, just didn't like prawns not up for them so i was cleaning up that's fantastic you want to you do want to dine with people who don't like food very much that's the best way of eating isn't it yeah oh it's fantastic but that is a really i think anything and you know raw prawns we we need to do more with raw prawns you know bottanebbe or whatever these giant prawns that you get in in sashimi and sushi places there is nothing sweeter and you know there's nothing fishy about them they are absolutely gems they're gorgeous and that's a really good treatment of them so that's my honorable luncheon really hot as well they were spicy yeah and but really flavorful

your dream main course can i tell you what i love what i love and i don't know if i'm allowed

yeah i do love a chinese hot pot oh lovely do you know i mean just treasure trove lovely so so the restaurants that i go to for these yeah one one london restaurant is pang pang so Pang Pang is on Upper St.

Martin's Lane.

Please, honestly, I highly recommend it.

It's really weird because you walk past it and it's kind of blue neon inside.

It's kind of got a bit of blue neon going on and it's got some kind of mirrored wall.

So it looks a little bit oligarchical, which always puts me off.

Sure.

So go in and order the fish head hot pot and do not be put off.

I'm just speaking to you as though no one's listening because this will put a lot of people off food, I think, potentially.

But this is truthfully heaven food-wise.

So one is the fish head hot pot in pang pang yeah have you been to cafe tpt in chinatown um no i haven't should i be going there really amazing hot pots right aubergine and pork mince hot pot is i didn't have the hot pot when i was but that place is great yeah just two days ago i went there and got the hot pot delicious tell me something are you saying that they put aubergine and mince pork in the soup itself yeah it's in the it's in the in the in the soup in the hot stone hot pot bit that they bring over really so we're talking about a big bubbling vat of soup different flavours you can get yeah yeah so these are the soups like in hidelow you've seen that in in leicester square yeah yeah love it yeah so you can choose your soup base but what's so incredible about it is it honestly is all things to all people i mean i'm preaching to the converter here but i'm just gonna so what particularly for me i love is the fact that you can get all these it's all of those textures and it is so you get things like the konjac threads which is kind of you know the their um sweet potato or they're mung bean noodle bundles that you drop into this soup and you get that really elastic playful texture it's like a fisher price activity center for the mouth you get sweet potato noodles that have got that elasticity you get squid tentacles um seaweed that goes in and then expands the black fungus all of these incredibly fresh ingredients and then you can order the greens so you get bundles of kind of you know, spearhead looking spinach and crown daisy, just greens that you don't get in a British supermarket.

And what a privilege to taste these things, you know what I mean?

Because I wouldn't know what to do with them you know so you're presented with these things you drop them into the soup so the soup base can be bone marrow it can be a bone base it can be a mushroom base it can be whatever shishwan base but they've always got goji berries in and they've got chinese dates in and it's just such a such a luxurious addition to these soups you know i love it and just the interactive nature of it as well and uh particularly the thing i like at heidi lau which um is the mince shrimp balls that you then dip in and cook and leave it there for a bit and then just yeah, and I get the like there's a beef tallow broth, which almost if you if you pull something out and then it goes on the table, you see it harden up again.

It's like, yeah, it's just like just full of fat.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, but this is such a good choice.

What's in the fish head one?

So, the fish head one.

So, this is this is the thing, and I'm really, I mean, I think this is coming from the East and Eastern cuisine.

Honestly, you honour every if you if you're gonna eat an animal, you honour every part of the animal.

So, we eat the heads, you know, we eat the tails.

You know, you don't, there's no such thing as a hermetically sealed bit of chicken breast in an Indian Indian fridge.

It's always bone in, always.

And I think it's really important.

But what's so bread.

God, I just think it's really bread.

This is in the center of the West End.

You know, these hot pot restaurants are the center of the west end and they are completely unameorated.

They do not tone down the authenticity of their cuisine.

It is what it is and it is utterly delicious and darn right we should be learning to eat in that way.

So it will be the silver carp head.

And that sounds awful, doesn't it?

But they serve one in fallow as well.

I noticed that, you know, fish heads are becoming a thing and good for them for doing that because why waste it and there's so much meat but I think because it's so articulated you know because the bones in the mouth are constantly move the fish's mouth is constantly the more articulation the the softer the meat

they're tastier the meat you know the more work it's done so it's not as though they just plop a head in it's the structure of the jaw or whatever or it's the bones but the flesh from that fish I have to say honestly is some of the best fish I've ever tasted please please try it and let me know what you think honestly

I always text you from that place

but please go and try that, that fish head soup.

Honestly, James, if you're not afraid of that kind of stuff.

I'm not afraid.

No.

But do you know what?

The other really amazing thing is about hot pot restaurants is have you ever been to the sauce bit at the side?

You know, so you go around the corner and then you go and pick your sauces.

And it is like discovering for the first time as a human being a piano and all the permutations and combinations of notes you can play in these various sources that you can put together to dip your...

you know, things.

So you get your pot of soup, you dip your sirloin in or whatever it might be, your tentacle in.

You pull it out of the soup when it's done, and you dip it in the sauces that you've created.

And that, I mean, if you've got a Chinese friend or in Pang Pang, for instance, he will come and he will guide you as to how to put sauces together.

But it's things like chive flour sauce and you know, fermented bean sauce, and green oil.

Green oil is Sichuan oil.

So it's the oil they've steeped, Sishuan peppers and green Sichuan peppers.

And it's that tingling, fantastic, cleansing, amazing oil.

Just flavours that are totally otherworldly.

Yeah.

It is, you know, it's like being abroad.

It's extraordinary.

I'm going to go there.

Yeah.

Mr.

Zheng's in Liverpool.

Can I tell you as well?

So here's the thing.

So what with me being from the north, honestly, the Liverpool Chinese food scene is extraordinary.

So it's the oldest Chinese community.

So in terms of Chinatown, it's the oldest Chinatown in the UK.

So Mr.

Zheng's is a great place to go to for hot pots there and Mr.

Chili's.

So that's a shout out to the north and these northern restaurants.

But it is, again, it's that bravery and the audacity of just bringing that cuisine completely, completely unfiltered to the British audience and saying, this is how we need to evolve to use all the bits of the fish.

So that's your dream main course is the fish head hot pot?

It's a hot pot, a Chinese hot pot.

Ideally, I'm going to go with the fish head hot pot.

That's what I'm going to do, if that's all right.

Yes.

And honestly, I'm not contriving.

I told my nephew about that and he said, oh, you're just trying to be cool.

Honestly, I'm not.

I just thought that.

hot pots at home as well, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I've seen you put up on Instagram, like you've, you know, done the whole thing for a big group of people and got all the ingredients prepared and laid out and stuff.

It's amazing.

Yeah, it is.

It's so interactive.

It's not just that.

It's not okay for food just to be interactive.

It's got to be utterly delicious.

Yeah.

And in the way that you described that thing about the chili and you went back the next day, that is how I feel about hot pots.

I will get the train back to Liverpool today, and all I can think about, even as I'm sitting here, is will I make it in time to go and get a hot pot in?

You know, that's it's totally addictive.

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Your dream side dish.

So the thing about your hot pot is you're not getting any of that caramelized crunch anywhere.

So I thought about this and the things that I would have, I need that little bit of, I love a bit of caramelized crunch.

So one thing I would say is my own roast potatoes that are a bit strange, but they're so, so good.

So very often I will, I will.

What?

Do you even know how I've done them?

Yes, carry on.

I just remember you showed us a picture of them once and they look burnt to fuck that was a burnt that was a burnt roast potato okay that was one of the burnt roast potatoes

remember that yeah very proudly showing some character picture

was really proud actually

olive oil is the thing so you parboil them yeah so they're very very very simple and they're very you're not doing that dance to a e you know by having to shake them in hot oil and all of that so you parboil them till they're just soft you can shake them if you want you know or whatever to get a bit of a coating you know a bit of a powdered outside i'm not really bothered about that i want the flavor into

a tray and in the tray you've got olive oil just not extraversion obviously but a good olive oil yeah you've got a little bit of brown sugar

you've got a little bit of salt a bit of garlic puree yeah have you switched off no i'm listening a little bit

james loves these bits

tiny little bits honestly of turmeric and that's not an indie i'm not talking about that being going in to do any kind of indian skewing to this dish so what turmeric does it simply tastes of soil it tastes of earth earth.

So very in India you would always put turmeric on potatoes before you cook them.

You just always would because what it does is it deepens the earthiness of your potatoes.

It deepens the potatoiness.

So I recommend if you're ever going to make chips or anything like that just rub it with turmeric before and then fry it and it just deepens the I don't know the darkness of the flavor.

It's really lovely.

So a little bit of that you mix all that together and then you toss your parboiled potatoes into it.

So it's dead simple.

So it goes into this cold mix and then you roast them and you roast them until they're not black.

I took pictures of that to show you how bad they were.

Yeah.

Until they go.

So you're also going to get that lovely golden thing, but you're getting what you want from roasties is you want that kind of,

you know, you want to feel like, yo, the smell of your mother is the ultimate comfort food, isn't it?

See, what I don't understand is things like adding rosemary.

You know, this is that business about just looking at the way that there are certain tropes that I just feel are almost performative, honestly.

And I think rosemary in roasties is almost like that's what you've seen posh people do.

And therefore you feel like you've got to do it.

But honestly, you want the smell of comfort, don't you?

You don't want the skewing of resinous perfume.

I just don't get it.

Same on for cassia, you know, which is an amazing thing.

But why the rosemary?

I don't, you know, it's just, it's bitter and it's

perfumed and you don't want perfume.

Yeah, exactly with the roasties.

And I know you've got James on board because He's never heard anyone suggesting putting sugar on roast potatoes.

Yeah.

I thought you had me at brown sugar james you know what the thing is with roasties because you want a little bit of that sweetness don't you and this is just a dead naturally quick way of doing it you know so you definitely because some potatoes are going to give you a bit of that sweetness and some aren't and isn't it so sad when you get one that isn't giving you all of those areas of the you know stimulation of all the areas of the tongue you want a little bit of sweet salt

so just a tiny bit of brown sugar ensures you're gonna every mouthful every one of those roasties is going to blow your mind it's a tiny bit of brown sugar what we're talking about texture crunchy, fluffy?

I like a crunchy outside and I like a fluffy inside.

Of course, that's what I meant to say.

Isn't that what I'm meant to say?

That's what I meant to say, isn't it?

I actually don't care as long as I actually don't really care.

As long as it's kind of crunchy-ish on the outside, I mean, that's the dream: is scraping all the bits off the bottom of the tin.

I get that.

But frankly, for me, with roasties, it's really quantity.

You know, more than anything, I like almost a tray to myself.

My other side would be Yorkshire puddings because I was forbidden them all my childhood.

Now, do you know what you've walked into here?

No, why?

What have you done?

I've not done anything.

Ed Gamble,

famously on the podcast, hates Yorkshire puddings.

Rubbish.

What is wrong with you, Ed?

They're rubbish.

They're boring.

Green corduroy shorts you're wearing, and you're telling me you don't like Yorkshire puddings.

How are they bland?

That's what you want from a Yorkshire pudding.

Well, there you go.

So they are.

Yeah, no, bland.

But there's a place for bland, for goodness sakes.

If you want that sketching, goodness gracious me, it's like a duvet in your mouth.

It's a duvet onto your soul.

I think what you're did is you put people who like Yorkshire puddings off Yorkshire puddings now.

You've just said they're bland and they're like a duvet in your mouth.

Do you know what they are?

They're not bland at all.

What I love about a Yorkshire pudding is they're packed with flavour.

They're not, though, heartwarming flavour.

Yes.

Your mic's in your neck again.

Can you hear me all right?

No, because you're really winding me up with this whole Yorkshire pudding thing.

Do you know what I mean?

A little bit of gravy.

You want gravy in them.

Okay, you don't want the desiccated Yorkshire puddings that are sitting there and all scroaty.

You know, you want the moist.

They're like old pancakes.

Yeah, that's a nice thing, Ed.

But Ed, you're getting the purest taste of meaty carb.

Do you know what I mean?

That's what a Yorkshire pudding is doing to you.

The outside of

a Gregg's sausage roll, it's that same hit that you're getting.

It's a meaty carb.

Well, I prefer that then.

So if next time someone is preparing Yorkshire puddings, instead, for me, I want the outside of a Gregg's sausage roll.

It's the same.

It's semantics.

This is semantic.

It's the same flavor.

But I think, are you going to go with your roasties for the side?

Why do we only have one side?

So here's what I'm going for.

Can I just give some honorable junctions with this as well?

Yeah.

Another jump.

Another honorable jumption.

Coles.

Can I do this?

Yes.

Cole, honestly.

Can I do it with the microphone towards you?

Yes.

Coles, pistachio, guacamole.

Have you had that?

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cole K-O-L, the Mexican restaurant.

Oh, yes, of course.

In London, you know, London.

Amazing.

Have you had that?

I'm not sure I've had that.

I've not been there for a while, so I don't think I've had the pistachio guacamole.

Is that because you can't get in?

So, is that my size?

Am I only allowed that many size?

What are you pitching?

20 KFC hot wings?

Is that not okay?

What?

20 KFC.

Hang on.

So you get roast potatoes.

Yeah.

Your roast potatoes, Yorkshire puddings, pistachio guacamole from Cole, and 20 KFC Hot Wings.

Yeah, because you want the crunch.

I think...

Well, yeah, you said you want the crunch at the top, but that's that's.

Can we allow two of those?

Will we?

let's hear about the hot wings first so the hot wings there are two types of hot wing uh-huh there's the radius nulna do you know the two little fin bones oh yes yeah yeah yeah and there's the humerus yeah the big drumsticky with the flat or the drum i i'm gonna go with a drum yeah so i'd like to ideally if you can get to the bag quick enough you can get all the the drumsticks out you know the drumstick wings 20 kfc hot wings please why kfc because it's so because you can drive through you don't even have to do eye contact with anyone you don't have to put your clothes on you can drive through i should tell you that you do and anyone listening you do have to put your clothes on put your clothes on them you don't have to do the eye contact you just go in you get them through a window into your car james like that onto the front seat you can eat them while you're driving but they're also james james was asking why you like them like taste-wise rather than he didn't want to have it explained to him what a drive-through is i know i know what a goddamn drive-through is but i i was wondering why they are your favourite hot wings because they are delicious what makes because they have got exactly the right amount of seasoning they've got the right amount of heat so there's just that that really clear honestly there are very few places on earth where you get that balance of heat just right where it's just a little bit of background warmth

um you know just enough stimulation but not hot you're not scared of rubbing your eyes after eating a you know a kfc hot wing spice wise but spice level wise would you serve those in mowgli

will that get rid of the kids in the eyes no no no that that chema's a a little bit hotter than that.

You're right.

You're all.

Yeah, because it's a funny thing, isn't it?

Because it's almost like that white pepper heat.

I feel.

It's almost, it's not a chili heat, which is more front-of-the-mouth, aggressive.

This is a kind of heat.

This is a more bring you into the realms of heat kind of heat.

A warming heat.

But

they're just brilliant.

Honestly, the crunch on them, the flavor of that batter,

and they're so, you can get them at any time, anywhere.

That is an amazing thing.

I live in Birkenhead.

Do you know what I mean?

So, no, Birkenhead is...

I know what you mean by you live in Birkenhead, right?

So, you know, and the way that I often listen to YouTube and you talk about Deliveroo, delivering these extraordinary things to your doorstep, I can get dominoes, and that's it where I live.

So the KFC Hot Wing or the KFC is a beacon of hope to me.

You know, my palate needs things like this, and I know I can drive through at any time.

and that's sanity.

So they matter a lot to me.

I got to just pick, or are you picking two of these for me out?

Well, I don't know.

It's a discussion, I guess, because I would say you seem more passionate about the KFC hot wings and the roast potatoes, whereas the pistachio guacamole and the Yorkshire puddings seem to like, but maybe they don't ignite the same fire.

Do you know, I think you're absolutely right there, James.

Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right there.

It's the roast puddings and the KFC Hot Wings, I think.

Well, hold on.

The

roast puddings?

Did I say roast potatoes?

Yeah, yeah.

Or roast potatoes, yeah.

Sorry.

It's the roast potatoes and it's the KFC puddings.

I thought you were sneakily getting a third option in there.

If I say roast puddings, I can have both of those.

I do love a roast.

I do love a yoga potato.

It's the roast puddings, and it's the guacamole hot wings.

Yeah.

Dream drink.

Oh, God, right.

Guess what I order at Mowgli to drink each time I go in there?

I can tell you what you drink.

Can you tell me?

You don't get a beer there.

Do you get one of the cocktails?

Yeah.

Okay, is it a mock tail?

Yeah.

Is it a chauffeur's cocktail?

Do you get the twister?

No.

Do you get the

sweet deli?

No.

Do you get the chairum sling?

No.

Give me the colour.

Browny, orangey.

You get the chai.

Oh, you get the cola, the cinnamon cola.

You get the cinnamon cola.

Yeah, that's a really good drink.

I'm so glad that you.

I'm so glad you've even been.

I honestly wasn't expecting you to have it, honestly.

You know that a lot of people like it.

I don't know.

My mum did for a while.

I did, Nancy.

You just get your head down and do not presume.

That is really nice that

you've been there.

So can I tell you my drink?

So you get the cinnamon cola.

Yes.

You notice that I've not done any Indian food or any Mowgli food.

This is not about this.

This is about me disinhibitedly telling you what I like.

Do you remember Belgo's many years ago?

No.

Okay.

I like a banana beer.

Do you know if I'm going to have to do alcohol?

You don't have to.

You don't have to.

Okay.

Can I tell you my drink that I would have that's not alcohol?

Yes.

Do you know Sujiri?

This is a shout out to Sujiri.

T-S, probably U-J-I-R-I, Sujiri.

Japanese, kind of match a drinky kind of place.

There's one in Dessert Alley in Chinatown.

Fantastic.

Cannot recommend it.

Highly enough.

I'm so glad you picked it up.

You pick that you can, with the ice cream, you can pick the strength of the matcha.

God, it's so how much matcha you want in it.

It's good.

I go big.

Yeah, they're phenomenal.

But what I love about them is that they also saw fit to open in Liverpool.

That means, honestly, it means a lot to me.

When brands that do well in London choose to go, you know, to, rather than just staying in London, take their outfits up to the north.

Yeah.

It's a really big deal.

So they've opened in Liverpool, but they do this thing called a kinako kuramitsu latte.

And kinako kuramitsu is basically date molasses

and roasted ground soybeans.

Yes.

It's so good.

It's one of those drinks that you drink.

I know it's like a milkshake.

Okay, so I have it with oat latte because it's, oh, James, it's so, because it's a little bit umami, it's a little bit salt.

I'm not going to go so far as to say salt, but it's that roundness from the soybeans, the depth of sweetness from the date molasses you know and then it's toned down and it comes you know it's banded in color when it's first made because of the different weights of the different liquids within it it's a beautiful thing it sounds amazing beautiful thing it's just what a fan one of those drinks that goes into your body and your body again puts its arms around it because it's so phenomenal well we we love kinneco anyway because of shack for you yeah best dessert in london kinneco french toast i need to go yeah

i need to go and try that yeah it's pretty special but i need to try this i need to try this drink yeah this drink sounds great yeah yeah yeah honestly highly highly recommend this is your dream drink this is a dream drink but i do yeah is this just for this course actually so here's another loophole that some people including ourselves have employed is that if you want to you can assign a different drink to each course and get a bunch of different drinks so can i can i do this because i i really do love

but i do love a banana beer so trappist white beer and i'm not a big drinker so my parents were big drinkers and so in the way that i wasn't allowed beef when i was eight i was probably allowed midori, baileys and fags.

So

I had my, so honestly, there was no, you, you could,

because they, they drank a lot.

Yeah.

Um, and so I think because I grew up with alcohol, I got to the point where I just thought, actually, I'm really not bothered about it anymore.

You know, why, why, why do it?

And I think as a child protection barrister, honestly, you see.

You see the damage it does.

So so I just think I've got an addictive personality when it comes to food.

I probably would be off my face all the time if I was into drink as well.

So I don't.

But one of my Achilles heels and one of those things that if I saw it on the menu, I'd have to order it and I couldn't stop drinking it would are those Trappist banana beers.

So they used to do them in Belgo.

And it's just, it's a kind of soft, soapy beer.

It's a really good white beer, you know, so it's a really good Belgian white beer, which is just gorgeous anyway.

And then it's got that banana flavour to it.

Because it actually tastes like proper banana.

It does taste a bit of proper banana.

It does, it tastes, so I have a very unrefined palate when it comes to alcohol.

I would like to further refine my palate when it comes to well i'm not going to try too hard to be honest because it gets you hammered but this is not just like a banana flavoured beer this is whatever brewed with fruit in the way that they do got it so if you like bananas it's and i love bananas it's a quite strong beer i think it's four it's about 4.8 okay so not like some of those belgian beers are like yeah 10 12 or something they go mad for it so for me that's strong so for me one of those and i'd be completely gone but this is about it's not a super strong it's not about the strength of it i think i think it's about the the that that fine brew that it is really delicious so that that's something perhaps i'd have that with my dessert cheese

but what the fuck i know just don't perhaps i'll just have that to sweeten the bitter pill at the end of the day i swear to high christ

So we are moving on to the dessert now.

Now, look, I hope you've just been minding me up for a laugh.

You've mentioned enough sweet things things along the way.

Banana beer, that latte's probably got a bit of sweetness to it.

For my dessert, so I honestly don't have a sweet tooth.

It's awful.

And I'm looking you straight in the eye when I say that I really don't have a sweet tooth.

I have a bit of an intolerance to chocolate, to cocoa.

So I think because I've not been able to have much chocolate all my life, it kind of weans you off sweet.

Okay, I'm not.

This is your mate that we bought.

Got her on because she's your mate.

It's complimentary, though.

It's because Ed has and I haven't.

It works quite well.

But do you know what?

I'm not going to go cheeseboard just because of his little face.

His little face?

You shouldn't have let him.

He's absolutely done you there, Nisha.

Does anyone dare go cheeseboard with your face across them?

I'm absolute pricks.

Not for a while.

So you're not going cheeseboard.

I'm going to go.

Okay.

Have you been to Hefure, those Japanese souffle pancakes?

Have you had those?

Have you had those?

I've had

some in Tokyo, a place in Tokyo.

Okay.

There is a place, and it's a kind of hole in the wall on Shastri Avenue, and it's a hut, and it's called Hefure, H-E-F-A-U-R-E.

Hefure, anyway, Japanese souffle pancakes.

So they are a pancake, but they're extremely risen.

They're such a big thing in Japan that you know those kind of cuddly toys, they make cuddly toys of them.

They're so beautiful.

And onto them, they put things like, so there'll be five flavors.

And the one that I like is the Biscoff one.

So it's a Biscoff sauce with Biscoff biscuits, but you can have those little tapioca balls on as well, which is delicious.

But these are so whipped, James, so they're a pancake.

They're not overly sweet.

You can imagine the kind of American pancakes.

I don't like those.

I like a crepe.

They make them by hand in the cellar and you will see a...

you know, one of the chefs just beating the hell out of this batter like the magic porridge pot kind of thing, you know, just beating for ages.

There's no hurry in this.

There's always a queue outside this place, which is where the pickpockets circle, but you will run the gauntlet of losing your iPhone for these pancakes.

So they then cook them on a griddle and they rise really high, but they are so angelic aerated inside.

I can't tell you.

So, they're real souffle pancakes, but then you've got the heft and the creamy saltiness of the biscoff sauce on top and the biscoff biscuits or whatever.

They do them with strawberries, they do them in matcha.

There's only a limited flavor.

There are many places that have started to do that actually in Chinatown or around Soho and around the West End, but I have to say, of all of them, it's the Fura, I think, that is the best.

And it is that, again, it's that uncompromising.

I'm going to take my time whipping this.

You can see her making the batter with real ingredients, you know, whatever, eggs milk, whatever they put in it, and whipping it in the cellar and then bringing it up.

That really artisanal way of doing it, but Q's and Q's outside.

So, very often, I think, if you go in there, there are these people called bloggers.

Bloggers.

Are you a blogger?

I'm not a blogger, no.

You see these bloggers.

I don't really know what one is.

It might mean vloggers.

You're a stand-up comedian, aren't you?

Yes.

Yes.

There's a lot that's happening.

I mean, that was a lovely description of the food, by the way, Nisha.

Sounded absolutely delicious.

There's a whole bunch of things that, you know, we would normally pick someone up on, but we'll just let you run with it.

I don't know what the magic porridge pot is.

I heard you make a sound when Nisha said magic porridge pot.

But what?

It immediately moved on to there being pickpockets around, which I

don't know how many pickpockets there are in London these days.

Maybe in old times, in older pit times.

No, no, no, that is still a thing.

That is still a thing.

Do you know what's crazy?

It's that spot.

Honestly, James, that spot on Shasbury Avenue is so bad for it.

So when you're queuing in the Ferrapew queue, people will come up and tell you to just watch your phone.

It's in the centre of town, you know, the West End.

What's Magic Porridge Pot?

Magic Porridge Pot is an old,

it's a children's story.

It's one of those old ladybird books.

Does anybody around this table know?

I don't have a magic porridge.

Don't you?

And she has a pot, a magic pot, and it makes an infinite amount of porridge.

And she says, cook, little pot, cook.

And it'll start to create this beautiful porridge that overflows.

And in the end, it drowned the whole village.

And then you had to stay, you had to say, James, to the pot, stop, little pot, stop.

And it's only then that it stopped.

But it was one of those ladybird books with these beautiful, are you totally going to edit this out?

No.

This is going to be a good idea.

Oh, God.

This will be the video clip.

This is absolutely going to be the video clip that Ben puts out.

It's okay.

Can I tell you, any of your viewers or whatever you call them, your audience over the age of 40,

it's going to mean something to them.

Everyone knows what that means.

Everyone knows

that means the magic porridge pot.

It is the magic porridge pot is a very famous children's story.

And it's that, yeah.

The lady who's making the pancakes is like the magic porridge pot.

Do you know, it is a little bit Ed because it's that.

So there is an image.

There is an image in the book and she's beating, you know, there are those iconic images in children's books, like handscreen, whatever.

And she's got this big, beautiful pot and she's beating this beautiful porridge yeah and it's that set anyway it evoked that in me yeah but forget that but she's not she's not overflowing and drowning the whole chest

take the pick pockets out yeah but then it does then it does overflow and even that looks delicious even that looks delicious yeah and can i get an ice cream side can i just do one hummurum ball johnson yeah and that is going to be the tahini and date molasses ice cream from Honey and Co.

Oh, yeah.

Highly recommend.

If you haven't had that.

So I love that we had the build of I don't have a sweet tooth, and you've gone for pancakes with biscuits on top and date molasses ice cream.

Yeah, because you see, that's the thing, is there always.

Honestly,

no, you were just tricking me.

You were never even considering a cheeseboard.

Can I tell you, honestly, I haven't got a sweet tooth.

And what I was really toying with, but I didn't think you'd allow it, was you know, the little chef?

Do you remember the pineapple with the gammon underneath it?

That is actually what I would have loved for my dessert.

Oh, Nisha,

I wish you'd put gamon and pineapple.

I'll tell you something, honestly.

Gammon and and gammon and pineapple.

That is my idea of a heavenly dessert.

A dessert.

You get a lovely bit of pineapple.

You can butter it, but you grill it.

Lovely.

Then you put a lovely grilled gamon steak on top.

Yeah.

Flip it over.

For no reason.

That is a good dessert.

Yeah, why don't you just take the pineapple out and put it straight on top of the gammon?

Yeah.

Why don't you just take the gammon out and put it straight in the bing?

Because it says dessert.

I wish you'd put gammon and pineapple.

But what are you crazy?

You've got more cork cookies.

You've got things like bacon and maple scones for dessert listen i like meat and pineapple together you know i'm on record on this podcast saying that i like it yeah it's not a pudding it's not a dessert i i agree with you it's not technically a dessert well it's not even emotionally

emotionally it can take you to dessert land no it can't yes it can because it's sweet no and it's salty and it's only as it's only as much as a bisque off anything or a miso and tahini anything you know what i mean dot masses and tahini do you mean as much it's it's that savoury sweet play no it's not putting that in your starters you know that's not true don't even lie it is because

the sweetness from the pineapple and the saltiness from the gamma meat is not a dessert the meat that's incidental no you're just talking textures now you're just talking textures i'm talking the main bulk of the dessert that you've just chosen those are just words

i think luckily nisha's chosen beskoff japanese pancakes and tahini and date molasses let's go with that let's go with that because it's going to get you less anxious about it do you want a little ramekin of gammon and pineapple on the side?

I'd like a small side plate of that.

Just a side plate of a little bit of pineapple and gammon.

It's a rare thing.

You don't see it in places, James, anymore.

And that's why I just think it's something that you celebrate.

And I couldn't put it in my starter.

Celebrate is not in places anymore.

I'm glad they've made that decision.

I hope the little chef goes bankrupt.

I'm pretty sure it has.

Oh, yeah, good.

I'm glad it has.

The little chef grew up.

If they're serving those as desserts, there.

They're not.

That is not a dessert.

I'll let you have it as a little side on the dessert.

I'll have it a little side on the dessert.

I hope that while you're eating it, all the pickpockets absolutely rinse.

They'll take everything from you while you're eating that.

That's done.

Disgusting.

I'm going to read your menu back to you now.

See how you feel about it.

Water.

You would like the plum flavor drinking vinegar.

Pop it onto a bread.

You want a bread basket of panda decahole, Irish soda bread, and the inside of a croissant.

Starter, spaghetti, aricie de mare.

Nicely done.

Main, fish head hot pot from Pang Pang.

Side dish, your own roast potatoes and 20 KFC hot wings.

Drink, kinako kuramitsu latte.

Dessert, Japanese souffle, pancake spiskoff from Hefure

and a Trappist banana beer to help you have with the dessert.

Yeah.

And I will let you have with the dessert the side of gammon and pineapple.

I'm not happy about it, but I feel like you clearly it you did use the phrase it would be your dream.

And if I don't let you have that, then that's that's bad form.

So I will let you have that as the side, but not happy about it at all.

This is the slightest.

Yeah, this is all about breaking down those old structures.

And you've done that beautifully by allowing me that.

Thank you very much, Nisha.

Are you happy with your menu?

That's my dream menu.

That's my dream menu.

I love it.

There's at least three things that I've got to go and try now.

I think this is going to be a big

recommendation fest for a lot of people.

I think a lot of people are going to be taking those recommendations.

Is it a rallying call for the hot pot.

If it's a rallying call for the hot pot, then job done.

Thank you.

Well, there we are, James.

Always love to be here with you when you probably meet someone for the first time.

Love Nisha.

Yeah.

Brilliant talking about food.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Really knows our stuff.

Loves food.

Huge passion for it.

Obviously, we love our restaurants.

Yeah.

And then also is just goes off on one quite a lot.

Yeah.

I loved it.

I love Nisha.

That was brilliant.

Thank you, Nisha, for coming on.

And thank you for not saying The Secret Ingreet.

Thank you for not saying kangaroo meat.

Meant that we got to continue talking in the dream restaurant.

Here, your full menu.

Yes.

Do go and get Nisha's new book, Bold.

And why not go and grab 30-minute Mowgli and Meat-Free Mowgli as well?

And if you're near a Mowgli restaurant, chances are you might be because they're all over the UK.

Do pop in to one of those as well.

Bombs away.

Bombs away.

James, thank you for a wonderful episode.

Hey, thank you, Ed.

A real pleasure.

And thank you for bringing one of your friends in.

I look forward to the big fifth episode.

Of course, thank you for bringing one of your friends in, Paul Rudd.

We've got different friends.

Thank you, Benito, for a wonderful episode.

Yeah, thank you, Benito.

Good job.

Good job, man.

Thank you very much.

We'll see you next week.

Bye.

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Oh, hi, James.

Have you heard the news?

Oh, yeah.

Go on.

You and I are modern boys because the Off Menu podcast is now on YouTube.

This is embarrassing.

Why is it embarrassing, man?

You love YouTube.

I love watching clips on YouTube.

Sure.

Now people can watch clips of Off Menu on YouTube and full episodes, but it's embarrassing man it's not embarrassing at all it's really cool we're on YouTube with the great and good the coolest people in the world are on YouTube me you Logan Paul who's Logan Paul the dad from Succession

at Off Menu podcast that's what Benito's calling us now and we're on tick tock this is embarrassing man it's not embarrassing man we're cool we're like olivia rodrigo and Ed people have been asking us battering us bothering us actually they want to watch the Stephen Graham supercut from the Stephen Graham episodes.

They can see all of his reactions to us, everything that he did.

Oh, Benito has bent to their whims and he's going to put it on YouTube.

He's going to do it.

Follow us at Off Menu Official on TikTok, at Off Menu Podcast, on YouTube.

You can watch clips from the podcast.

And on YouTube, you can watch full video episodes.

People have been asking for it.

And you're finally getting it.

Full video episodes.

So you can see every single nuance on our little faces.