Ep 202: Jimi Famurewa

James, huge news from the world of off-menu and indeed the world of the world.

Yes.

Ever heard of the Royal Albert Hall?

I have.

We've done live shows there.

And guess what?

We're doing more live shows there next year.

Sure, a lot of them are sold out already.

But we thought, hey, throw these guys a bone.

Let's put on one final Royal Albert Hall show in that run.

The show will be on Monday, the 16th of March.

It's going to be a tasting menu, a returning guest coming back, receiving the menu of another previous guest.

Those shows have been a lot of fun.

We cannot wait to do them live.

Who will we pull out of our little magic bag?

You'll have to come along on the 16th of March to find out.

If I'm correct in thinking, presale tickets go on pre-sale on the 10th of September.

Pre-sale tickets are 10th of September at 10 a.m.

And then the general sale is 12th of September at 10 a.m.

So if you miss out on the pre-sale, don't forget general sale is only two days later.

The day in between is for reflecting.

Get your tickets from royalalberthall.com Hall.com or offmenupodcast.co.uk.

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Welcome to the Off-Menu Podcast, shaking up the champagne of conversation, taking the sharp knife of humor, whipping it along the top of the champagne, taking off the cork of bad times and pouring ourselves a nice bubbly glass of podcast.

Celebrate good times, come on.

That's Ed Gamble.

I'm James A.

Caster.

We own a dream restaurant and we invite a guest in every single week and ask them their favorite ever.

Start a main course dessert, side dish and drink, not in that order.

And this week, our guest is Jimmy Fabrarawa.

Yes, a wonderful food critic, brilliant writer.

You've seen him as a judge and master chef, I'm sure.

Jimmy has a new book out.

Settlers, Journeys Through the Food, Faith and Culture of Black African London.

That's out now, and we will ask Jimmy about it during the podcast.

We will, but I can't wait for this menu, James.

This is exciting.

If you are not listening to this episode with a pen and paper, you probably should so that you can write down all the recommendations.

Surely this guy is going to have them coming up, the wazoo.

He knows his stuff.

His wazoo is overflowing with wrecks.

Yeah, you would imagine.

Yes.

So I'm quite excited to hear all these recommendations.

Is that how wazoos work?

There's stuff, so much stuff in the wazoo that it starts to spill out?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that makes the sound wazoo as it all comes out.

Woo!

Yeah, yeah.

Wazoo, yeah, you can.

Wazoo, yeah, you can.

Yeah.

But hey, listen, we love Jimmy from Moreworth.

But if Jimmy says the secret ingredient, an ingredient which we have deemed to be unacceptable, we will be forced to kick him out of the dream restaurant.

And this week, the secret ingredient is cauliflower

rice.

Can't see Jimmy saying this.

Surely he wouldn't say cauliflower rice.

I only know about cauliflower rice because I saw Ed do a routine about

it when it was a fad about having a greater cauliflower and how long that takes.

Yes.

So basically someone decided that rice wasn't good for you.

Yeah.

And people started coming up with alternatives.

And you'd use that to make pizza bases and stuff.

Yeah.

Horrid.

Just using cauliflower in the worst ways possible.

Yeah.

Hopeful.

I mean, Jimmy Shawley isn't going to say it, but like...

Unless there's some new, brilliant, trendy, high-end restaurant that's using cauliflower rice in an amazing way, you know, we'll be happy to hear about that and we're excited, but that will be the last thing he says on the off-menu podcast.

Yes, we'll have to kick him out.

So fingers crossed, that won't happen.

And that suggestion came from Hannah Sinclair.

Hannah Sinclair, she just don't care.

Apart from if it's cauliflower rice.

Yeah, then she cares.

She's got an opinion on that.

Hannah Sinclair really do care.

Yeah, Hannah Sinclair, Hannah do care.

This is the off-menu menu of Jimmy Fammarewa.

Welcome, Jimmy, to the Dream Restaurant.

Thanks for having me.

Welcome, Jimmy Famaraywa to the Dream Restaurant.

We've been expecting you for some time.

Oh, wow, it's happening.

It's really happening.

Great to be here.

I was happy with my energy then.

Yeah.

It was good energy, actually.

Yeah, I think it was really good.

Well done, you, man.

I am impressed that this genie pronounced my name so well as well, to be honest.

Yes, very much.

Well, he's been practicing it because it plays perfectly into his speech impediments.

When the plays, it doesn't play perfectly.

Yeah, it plays havoc with my brain.

Right, right.

Like it was like I deliberately do

soft R's a lot of the time.

So an R and a W together quite quickly means that whatever, yeah, I'm taking a run-up to that and being like, okay,

I've really focused on the brain.

That's if I reveal at this point, not even my real name.

It's just been a really long, slow burn bit to get to this point and wind you up.

Like, yeah, Jimmy Smith weirdly.

Yeah.

It's not often we get a food critic in the dream restaurant.

Is it not?

No.

Third one.

Really?

Yeah.

In like however many.

Yeah.

I guess that is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's over 200 episodes recorded.

Yeah.

Wow.

Always nerve-wracking.

And because you're picking the stuff in the dream restaurant, hopefully you won't be too critical of the

my own choices.

Yeah, yeah.

That would really play to type if I was like, oh, really obvious.

Like just kind of, you know, almost doing my own annotations.

Yeah, but no, it's lovely to be here.

You're one of the more positive ones.

I think that, yeah, people do say that.

Like someone was like waiting to get the train the other day, and this woman was like, I love how kind you are i was like yeah i don't know if that's what they want from me but i do try to be i think it would be disingenuous if i was like some kind of like cackling like villainous person because i guess i'm i'm sort of quite a genial positive person in real life so yeah probably i probably wouldn't be able to keep it up if i was like you know being really out of order but yeah yeah especially if you're like friendly to everyone when you go into the restaurant and then they read a bad review and they're like he was so he seemed so happy when he was here well there is always an element of that like you kind of and I guess everyone has this when I go to a restaurant and it's like how is it going and it's like how honest are you to that question like they don't want you to be honest it's like being asked how are you isn't it

it's just kind of like and so yeah I yeah I am always conscious of that that you don't want to seem like you're just like being like duplicitous and like yeah this is great and then you're just like ripping them to shreds like afterwards but but yeah like you must find this.

And, you know, like when you're kind of, you know, we're both kind of jamming our faces with food on TV when you're on British menu.

And British is the positive one, though.

Yeah.

Because I'm not the food professional.

So I get to absolutely just gobble it all up.

And then I try not to be mean because also they're all brilliant professional chefs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the base level is excellent.

Yeah.

And then it works.

It's from there, really.

So yeah, I have a great time doing it.

But I eat everything.

Do you know you don't pace yourself?

No, God, no.

Yeah, I always intend to pace myself.

And you're like, right, we've got a big day of eating here.

Let's not go crazy.

And then suddenly, if it's really delicious, you can't stop yourself.

Like, how do you stop yourself?

And also the hunger kind of comes in strange bursts, doesn't it?

Because sometimes you'll just have like tiny little portions of things and then quite a big pudding will come out and you'll just like gorge yourself mad.

It's a different stomach.

It's yeah, exactly.

The pudding stomach, of course.

Yeah, I'm still not great at that, and it's always a strange thing to have got to the end of one of those days, and you're sort of like reeling, and you've been eating this amazing, complex, uh, sophisticated, interesting food.

And I do have, like, at the end of the day, quite you know, sometimes it'll just be like a pronounced craving for like a blueberry muffin from Starbucks or something like that.

Like, I sort of want to like return back to normality.

And, like, yeah, that's it.

I always think Master Chef is even more nerve-wracking as from like a judge perspective for you guys because you've got to watch them bring it through the door and then bring it to the table which terrifies me every time i see that they're like shaking and pulling it over the plate yeah yeah it is it is strange and i guess that is that comes back to the balance of you know being uh positive and trying to be kind and like i'm i don't know i i just always try to like actually remember that it is just like a person yeah all the mechanics of tv obviously you're there to be critical to a degree and you're there to sort of like have a sort of bar of, you know, excellence or whatever it may be.

But yeah, when people come in.

quite often they've got like you know an ice pack on from where they've burnt their hand like they're literally like trembling covered in like stains of food and stuff and it's like you just sort of want to just be like it's okay you're gonna be all right but yeah that is that is kind of um it is pretty brutal and judging someone face to face a very different thing like i think you know to go back to our point about the reviews like I've definitely had that experience of like when someone brings their food up to you and you sort of say something even mildly negative about the presentation they're just faces just drop and it is like it's pretty um yeah it's pretty tough but I don't know I think everybody it's strange isn't it we all watch those shows because we want people to be kind of like judged yeah in in in a certain way but yeah i i think there's a there's a there's a line isn't there i can just leave that to tom Kerridge.

Yeah, leave it to Kerridge.

Just like you just get to be like, that was great.

Can I have another?

Yeah.

Just sort of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Any word from Ed?

He's just licking his plate.

He's fine.

It's just, yeah, yeah.

It can be weird because I think sometimes, and especially when I first started being a critic, I've written reviews, you think of criticism as being like, you know, what's his name?

Anton Ego in Ratatouille, and that to be a good critic is to be exceptionally harsh.

But I wonder if maybe sort of post-pandemic as well that's kind of like fading away a little bit and the sort of panto-villainy is not really what what people want but you you know you you need to you need to kind of uh

people do kind of like seeing somebody people like uh the catastrophe and things going wrong the jeopardy the peril those things and we kind of need to need to sort of gesture towards that a little bit sometimes and i think often that the reviewer nowadays becomes the thing as well like a product in and of themselves.

And so then they have to have a persona.

And I think a lot of the time it's easier just to be the mean one who winds everyone up and people get annoyed about it.

It's more fun to be a villain, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, oh, massively, yeah.

It feels like the thing that people think of when they think of critics, right?

It's like that you're devastating and that you come in and you know the Imperial march is playing as you walk in.

It's like, come on, I'm going to really sort of kick that shit out of this souffle.

but yeah quite often you just like just maintaining a sense of like proportion like levity but then yeah we all do sit there at home don't we and we're like you know we can literally be arm in like a bag of crisps or whatever and like have just like ordered a deliver room we're like oh he's messed it up oh look at that yeah sauce is a bit thin isn't it a bit thin yeah oh no he's forgotten it like it's kind of part of it isn't it that you can be the kind of armchair uh expert in that way but um yeah no it's good fun it's such a for a pot i don't know about you ed but it's such an absurd thing to be doing isn't it like to me just like such a lucky thing to be doing like eating like fantastic food and and going like yeah i like that

yeah more please i've only ever been to the banquet and you have to write down your favorite dish at the end of course there's loads of people there and you know you go around the table and no one's putting the same thing a lot of the time and you're like oh yeah it's not actually that one is the best yeah yeah it's just down to everyone going their individual thing yeah

just better at writing yeah yeah just know more words describe food than we do I think it's a fair point but I think that there is that thing of you get to almost like set the standard in some ways and I think sometimes if I'm writing a review or if I'm describing something on MasterChef and I've not necessarily liked it and I'm aware that that's quite subjective but it is almost like you are a kind of like I don't know food lawyer or something you're having to like convince other people that like you need to make a convincing argument basically so that even if people disagree with you they can kind of see where you're coming from and yeah you're right like it's so so subjective and so yeah it is all about like who can convince the other person but I've definitely had it where I've been like that's amazing and then the other critics like that is terrible and I think like you know particularly like being relatively new to this world like like as I was like a few years back you kind of are a bit like questioning maybe like like what you think and you don't want to get things wrong.

But then I think you sort of come to realize that, you know, your perspective and your like approach to things has like value, doesn't it?

And I think that that is, that is kind of like a really sort of positive thing.

And I think you can see it in the way that these shows are cast.

There's different sorts of chefs, different sorts of cuisine, and there's a kind of a broader span of opinions as well.

And it's not just like, this isn't fancy French food.

So therefore it is terrible.

Like, do you know what I mean yeah also speaking of writing you got your new book out settlers yes yeah journey through the food faith and culture of black African London yes so it's not completely about food but there's a lot of food in there and it's kind of a bit of a memoir bit of social history uh and it's kind of like about the sort of broad culture that raised me really and sort of that I grew up in Nigerian background but then also there's a lot of crossover with people of Ghanaian heritage people of Sierra Leonean people of like other parts across the African continent and so I just kind of like it's split up into different chapters like some looking at food some looking at things like religion some looking at education and I kind of tell a little bit of my own story and experience of that specific world and like you know the the importance that faith held in like my mum's eyes as I was growing up and things like that and I kind of just join the dots and contextualize it like go back through history, a lot of research.

I mean, I wish I'd picked something more straightforward.

I definitely thought that midway through writing it.

But no, and I think also what I also wanted it to feel like was quite like alive and quite like fun and, you know, vibrant and like reflect, like, you know, we've all, I think if you live in any kind of like, I mean, you could say like major city around the world, but certainly in the UK and certainly in London, there's African communities that we've all kind of seen and like oh that bingo hall is now like a Pentecostal church like that's interesting and you go like somewhere like Ridley Road Market and you kind of get that kind of explosion of like colour and life and you know the different things that are being sold there and you think oh what are the roots of that and there's there's all these fascinating little kind of historical nuggets that I kind of you know sort out I talked about my own experience of them and I just kind of try to like join the dots in a hopefully quite entertaining way.

It is a thing about how positive you are.

I was noticing it while you were talking.

You smile while you talk, no matter what you're talking about.

And I was like, I don't think I ever do that.

No, no, no, no, you don't.

Yeah, I don't know.

Maybe that you don't.

Yeah, yeah.

The opposite, actually.

I'm telling like a really like positive story and scowling.

And I was listening to what you were saying.

Yeah.

But I was thinking

he's such a happy guy.

Just trying to apply it to if I was like a policeman or something,

just grinning.

And I'm afraid we are going to have to arrest you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, Officer Jimmy.

Yeah.

Straight away.

Will you talk to me in the car on the way to the station?

Don't worry.

I'll keep grinning.

Maybe that is a bit of a cultural thing as well.

Like.

I think of like my mum who is like a real formidable character, like, you know, tiny, very driven woman, but she's also like hilarious as well.

And like, you know, sort of like piss taking is kind of like our like family love language or whatever.

Like it is that it is kind of in there where kind of, you know,

maybe part of it does come from like relatively like difficult circumstances at times and immigrants and you're sort of struggling a little bit, but there is always this kind of life and not taking things too seriously and sort of like, you know, having a little bit of a grin on your face.

But yeah, like, yeah, maybe, maybe it is one of those things that I've kind of probably, it's probably Master Chef that's just made me be like, if I just keep smiling,

they won't hear me telling, telling them that they're

in the season.

Well, we always start with still or sparkling water.

I'm going to go sparkling.

Okay.

And I always think like, because obviously I go to a lot of restaurants in my job.

And people are always like, still or sparkling, still or sparkling.

And I'm a bit of a flitter, really.

Like, I'll have still, I'll have sparkling.

but I do like sparkling because it feels like a little like a little treat like a little bit of fun little fun sort of party bubbles and all that and yeah water is like an interesting one because I will normally just say tap to be honest like very pointedly and then you worry that the person you're with is like oh got ourselves a cheapskate like there is that thing isn't there it feels it feels weirdly loaded and I don't know if you've had this at certain restaurants where you say tap and it's almost like they hoard the tap water they keep it away from you you don't get a bottle for yourself.

Like it's like they want to shame you into like...

You just get a tiny little glass.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're just like, yeah, oh, okay, tap.

Yeah, yeah, we'll see.

Yeah, yeah.

You're not getting the jug yourself.

No, no, we're going to like, yeah.

So, yeah, but, but I think sparkling, yeah, like a bit of ice, bit of lemon in there sometimes as well.

Just like, yeah, it feels, it feels in its own way, like the kind of thing that I wouldn't necessarily always have in at home.

Whereas still water is, you know.

You've got it coming out of the taps.

Got it coming out the taps, mate.

So, yeah, it feels like a treat, puts you in that kind of mindset, that little bit of effervescence.

Do you think, because I think

when I'm judging Great British menu, I will have sparkling water quite often.

I feel like it's more of a palate cleanser in between different people's dishes.

Yes, that's a very good point.

It clears the mouth.

It cleans the mouth.

Yeah, the sort of carbonated quality just kind of, yeah, probably, yeah, there probably is something in that.

Yeah, but you got, I don't know about you, I glug a lot of water on those days as well.

Like, you know, because they're always topping up your glass

they're putting in that food man yeah yeah yeah and all the butter yeah yeah just crazy the amount of salt but i'm pro pro salt i'm massively pro salt i'm pro salt don't get me wrong yeah but if you didn't have the water you'd be screwed yeah

um if i'm really sort of given the choice if i really think about it i'll kind of have whatever's there but um but yeah fizzy Fizzy baby.

Wouldn't it be a bit of a bad thing?

Pop Rob's or bread.

Pop Rob's or Bread, Jimmy Famarewa.

Pop Rob's or Bread.

Oh, wow.

Immaculate pronunciation again.

While having to do the Poplars or Bread Bread.

While having to do the Pop of Dom's or Bread.

You did it.

I know.

I felt now.

My finest dance.

It's done now.

That was going to be the tense one.

And there's their build-up as well, where it's kind of like, oh, James hadn't been talking for a bit.

No, this one I was like, I caught myself.

As soon as I thought to myself, we're going to have to do Pop Loms or Bread soon.

I thought, just do it straight away.

Do it right now.

I think I know.

I don't know know if I should say it.

Well, I think he basically said at the time that, like, Jamie Oliver, who I kind of know a bit, that he was the Poppadoms or Bread was a moment for him, it was an experience as well.

Like, maybe the, you know, the genie that he kind of was not prepared for Poppadom's or bread.

Yeah.

Did you even ask him?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, he was, but he was prepared because he chose Poppadoms.

And then some people, because we recorded at his place,

and some people brought in a selection of different things.

Oh, my God.

Wow.

Well, I've not got,

I've not got anything in my bag, I'm afraid, to present to you.

But to return to the question, it's got to be Poppadoms.

It's got to be Poppadom's.

Yeah, I feel almost similarly to the sparkling water thing, there is a feeling of, I don't know, like it's special.

Like bread is great.

Obviously, sourdough is on every restaurant menu with a kind of fancy whipped butter next to it.

I'm seeing a lot of,

there's a lot of like glazed dinner rolls at the the moment

is that the new that's the new bread new thing mate yeah just a little that's why you got me here now

mainly for sort of you know yeah bread forecast

um is there certain stuff that you just get very tired of where you're like i swear to god if they've got truffle on this again on on this menu yeah it does it does happen where and i think actually it can probably seem quite unfair to like restaurateurs like they you know there are these things that become real obsessions of chefs and then like you know people like me that write about food just kind of lose it out of all proportion because there's like

another like wild garlic mayo like you know and it is there is a lot of i but i guess it's like anything isn't it there's there's trends and there's there's things that really bubble up and then suddenly everyone will be like absolutely not mate and like you know we only need to look back through like food history or recent food history to see but yeah it can it can just get a little bit much at times yeah when do you think popping candy is going to be over

i think i talked about this on like the first episode of

yeah they do love it don't they popping candy and every time you see someone on a tv show put popping candy in something someone will eat it and go oh this chef's got such a sense of humor

they don't

talk about the chef needs to grow up yeah

yeah there's a whole there's a whole family of those though aren't there where it's kind of like nostalgia but yeah uh poppadoms absolutely poppadoms yeah i i just think there's there's just something very fun about them and i always feel like when we order like an indian takeaway i've got a weirdly specific thing like we'll have the popadoms at the start but i like if there's a few left afterwards just as a little you know when you finish just to kind of just to pick at at the end like you know that's kind of part of it and there's just a few little shards to like kicking about just something to something to do with your hands yeah

um yeah so yeah definitely poppadoms all the all the dips, mango chutney, all that.

Is there a place where like does the best popad ons?

Yes, there's a couple that I can think of, sort of both ends of the spectrum.

So there's one near me in southeast London, Babur, got shout them out, absolutely legendary Indian restaurants been going like over 30 years now.

And their popadons are great.

Really good mango chutney with like proper big pieces of mango in it, a bit of spice in it.

Not that real kind of gloopy synthetic, which has has its place to be fair.

Like, I've definitely had it with my friends where, and this, I don't know, this was like a bit of a light bulb moment because they were like, oh, yeah, I want to go for a curry, I want to go for a curry.

And I'm suggesting all these, like, oh, yeah, let's go to gunpowder, let's go to like, you know, all these restaurants that kind of contemporary takes on a specific region or whatever.

But they absolutely wanted the old school, very kind of like basic.

And it's kind of, and I feel like those, those memories and those associations are so like powerful for people that they don't really want it mucked around with.

And like there's a restaurant chapter in Settlers actually where I talk about, you know, the increased prominence of West African influenced food and African influenced food and that.

authenticity question.

And I do think, yeah, we all have these things where we just don't want it mucked around with.

And people have it with things like fish and chips or whatever.

It's like, no, I do not want it elevated.

I want it.

I want it slightly rubbish.

Like, yeah, well, I've got this.

Because there's a few of that, yeah, there's a few of those restaurants now in London that are West African.

Yeah.

influenced fine diner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which I absolutely love, but I didn't grow up with African restaurants.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can imagine if you're like used to, used to certainly seeing like, well, you just tiny little portion.

Yeah.

And then, of course, you've got the people that are perhaps more used to the food being like, where's the rest of it?

What the heck's this?

How much for a bottle of of Guinness um so yeah popadoms uh babur is really good and then to sort of almost undercut what I've been saying there's a place called Bibby in London which is like really good high-end Indian and they do like these cheese popadoms that are essentially giant quavers so um yeah I would have like you know maybe half and half maybe some babur ones and then some fancy cheese papad on the side as well

I went to Bibby a few weeks ago Oh, phenomenal.

Oh God, it's really good, isn't it?

Oh, it's so good.

It's really good, isn't it?

Really good.

Great cocktails as well.

Good cocktails.

Yeah, it's lovely.

Yeah, yeah.

No, and that, and that to me is like the best expression of that because he's somebody that had worked on a lot of different restaurants, almost kind of like cooking other people's cuisines.

And Bibby is him kind of applying that technique to this food that he clearly has like a real sort of like, you know, personal connection to as well.

Like, yeah, it's really good.

Would massively recommend.

Yeah.

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

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well let's get into your dream menu proper very exciting

the dream starter

dream starter

you must get so bored of people saying can i slightly bend the rules

but can i slightly bend the rules and like i want to have um a trio of small sandwiches, like slider-sized, like, so it's still a starter, but there's three very specific sort of almost slider, two or three-bite-sized sandwiches that I want.

One of them is the mackerel pita from Mangal 2, which

they did it throughout the pandemic, like when it was kind of locked down, you can only do takeaway.

And this is a restaurant in Dalston, like very acclaimed, um, Turkish-inspired restaurant run by the two sons of the original owner.

So they've kind of modernised it.

An amazing pillowy Turkish bread, a beautifully charred piece of mackerel, a dill mayo in there as well.

Outrageously good.

And I think it's one of those things that you can't get it anymore.

Like they bring it back occasionally, but it's got that kind of scarcity specialness about it.

So a little one of those.

a little Dexter cheeseburger from the Plimsoul.

It's another restaurant in London,

in Finsbury Park.

The greatest burger I've ever had, I think.

Almost feels a little bit like it's got, and I could just be imagining this, but it's got like a wimpy quality to it.

There's something quite nostalgic about the burger sauce in there as well.

It's a smashed burger, so it's got the crackly edges and just really gorgeous.

And I think also as a reviewer, I reviewed.

the first kitchen residency that they did and I remember the burger we didn't even order it at first and I was and then we ordered it and I tried it and I think it's almost like one of those things that reminds me, you know, to have the courage of your convictions because I was like, I feel like this is like a crazily good burger.

But what can be applied to like all sorts of different types of reviewing is you're doing it in this vacuum, like you don't know what other people think of it.

So it is this kind of leap of faith.

And so I remember being like, oh, no, I've got to really make a big deal of that burger because I think it was delicious, but I'm not sure.

And then it became this huge thing.

And like, you know, like everyone was talking about the burger.

So I think that's quite a a nice one with a professional link.

And then the final one is a teeny tiny KFC

Zinger Tower burger, which I've just got a very specific nostalgia for it.

I used to work at various places in Bluewater, the giant shopping center in Kent.

And I'd work at like, I had, I worked at Ted Baker for a little bit.

And I've said previously in like writ, like in pieces of writing that it was like Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross or something like they were all like we've got to shift these store cards and I kind of really hated it but I would go for a KFC after there's something about the hash brown and the cheese there's there's just a sort of wrongness to it that I just absolutely love yeah yeah yeah

I that would be my order yeah I went for a stage when I was like, I don't know, 18, going to KFC every Friday with my friend Graham.

Northampton KFC, they always had Stream Sports or snowboarding on the TV and we'd watch that.

I'd always get a Zinger Tauerburger meal.

And it was a revelation.

The cheese, the sauce, and the hash bag.

Yeah, it's the sauce a kind of salsery type thing.

Yeah, and then obviously the actual chicken

bit has got the zing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're still eating there.

You're getting the zing.

Let's not forget the zing.

I just never...

was going to order anything else.

Yeah, yeah.

It just, I don't really know how they arrived at it.

Like, you know, a lot of the fast food items, like, they're inspired by something or, oh, it's kind of the Texan one or whatever.

But like.

Or a knockoff from another.

Yeah, yeah.

But like,

how did a hash brown and a slice of cheese and a spicy sauce get in there?

Like, but yeah, those.

And so, and I, and I do feel like I really love like sort of mini burgers and like tiny kind of things that kind of invite you to eat quite a few of them.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's almost like a challenge.

Yeah.

You can just like have like a plate of them.

But yeah, three of those, those three quite sort of personally meaningful.

Great.

I'm so happy that Mangirl 2's got a shout out.

Yes.

Never been there.

And the Plumso.

I've still not been to the Plimso, but I went when it was four legs at the

Compton Arms.

Yeah, yeah.

Fantastic.

Yeah, really, really good.

Yeah.

And the burger's the one thing or one of a couple of things that never leaves the menu and everything else changes.

It's such a good burger.

It's kind of hard to, I don't know, it's weird, isn't it?

Because burgers are like pizza where there's all these endless debates around the best and again to go back to our point it can just be incredibly subjective can't it and people are like that's not a good burger like this is but yeah I would I would defy anyone to try that burger and not just what's the bun it's like your standard glossy is it brioche I'm pretty sure

brioche no I don't think it's

so sweet it's not it's not mega sweet it's not mega sweet brioche buns in a burger and actually

and actually, it's not one of those ones that just kind of like disintegrates as well.

It's like a good bun.

Maybe, yeah, maybe it's, maybe it's more of a kind of potato roll.

I went through a stage with Mango 2 where I'd go, have a great meal, come back pissed and book it for three weeks later.

That is a really good sign.

I've definitely sat at certain restaurant tables and...

particularly when it's very good and there's a bit of hype around it maybe you're like let's book again like when you're at the table table like that is kind of really the ultimate sign or or even if you don't book like I do think and I don't know like when you're reviewing you can get really like lost in the weeds of like is this good am I sure this is good like everyone like because quite often the people I go with they're having a great time they're like you know drinking loads of wine they're like yeah yeah yeah this is amazing and I and so you have to be that kind of I don't know that sort of slightly cold I was gonna say shark like but maybe that's bad but yeah you sort of have to be like is this actually good?

But one of the things that I always come back to is if you're already planning a return visit

and trying to think of reasons or people that you'd love to take there, that's a pretty good answer.

Are we seeing some loopholes for your dream main course?

I think my main course is

hopefully not going to need any loopholes or bits of rule bending and having sort of been in a bit more of a restaurant space I think this one's gonna be a bit more linked to home and it's um uh it's a Nigerian dish uh and it's it's basically stewed beans which does not sound that appetizing the Yoruba name for it is uh Ewa Riro

I think I got that right like Nigerian uh Yoruba people like sort of like

absolutely

yeah yeah yeah wiped us the rerose the menu back at the end James

Elwa Rero is going to absolutely fucking Elwa Rero.

Jimmy Famaray was Elwa Rero.

You've got to call it that as well.

Yeah.

Coffo Famare was Elwa Rero.

But yeah,

it's amazing.

And I think it's one of those things you probably would have.

If you've eaten some West African food or people that are listening, they would have encountered a dislike it.

I'm looking at it written down.

The bolito's just written it down.

I've just looked at it, dancing, oh, I'm fucked.

I'm absolutely fucked.

Oh, my God, it really is like i've done it deliberately um if you've had as a ghanaian dish red red which is like a similar kind of bean dish um but it's uh it's really uh cooked down like you cook them in a pressure cooker it's these beans and the stew in there tomato pepper stew onions it's normally got some heat going through it some scotch bonnet and you have that with fried plantain and it is one of those things that probably because and this is you know related to writing the book and seeking to like understand my culture because you know having been born in this country and grown up here I've got this kind of really powerful heritage and it's very present in my life but it feels inaccessible in some ways and you're constantly being told oh you're not really Nigerian like you know but but I think in terms of food it really manifests because these are dishes that I mean I could maybe try them but I just don't think I could get even close to like my mum cooking them they're almost a bit like refried beans like if you had like kind of like mexican refried beans and they've just got such like depth and waves of flavor it's so comforting it's basically like cooked down to like a mush not the most photogenic of dishes but yeah with kind of like caramelized like sweetened uh fried plantain on the side as well it is such a good combo and it is the thing that i really and you know i guess Through like the pandemic and stuff,

we had an opportunity to all realize like, oh, well, I could never eat this dish again because the person, you know, my supplier, i.e.

my mum is not around.

Like, you know, so I really, I really, it really clarified like what you really wanted, didn't it?

And what you really sort of loved.

Yeah, I absolutely love it.

It's such a, it's such a simple dish, but one that I feel like, you know, dream restaurant, that'd be the kind of thing I'd go for.

And maybe that tells its own story in terms of being a restaurant critic and having all these quite fancy foods.

That's the thing I want.

and would you ever have it with Jolloff rice

well yeah so so Jolloff would probably if there was like a leaderboard of like you know the candidates for this main course Jollof would probably have been in the conversation but some people do it like there is a kind of amazing chaos to like a Nigerian spread like a buffet like my mum makes like a roast dinner and it's got like you're like hang on none of this goes together what the hell like and there's an element of like you know there's potatoes there's rice, there's plantain, there's like a few different types of meat, there's another kind of rice.

So you could kind of do it.

I wouldn't mix the two.

I would, I kind of, and maybe that's one of my sort of weird rules that I'm just like, I just want to like appreciate the beans.

I want to have rice.

Like Jolloff is a beautiful thing, but it's kind of like a separate thing.

And yeah, Jollof is crazy the degree to which it's, you know, ikoye, which I mentioned in settlers, they've got Jolloff rice on their menu and it's a two-michelin style, you know, restaurant now it's kind of crazy to have something that you grew up eating suddenly become part of you know the kind of cultural conversation and stuff and it's a small it's a small portion

yeah it's a very small portion did you go have you been i've been a couple of times yeah i love it i've not been to the new the new space but i went a couple of times once in st james's yeah because they do a they do an amazing plantain dish as well don't they with the scotch the scotch bonnet powder and the raspberry yeah yeah i went i went there the first time we went there uh there was a couple in there and they're very fancy couple and then their child minder turned up halfway through with their five-year-old daughter and dropped her off and uh you just saw the waitress like start panicking she came home she was like um

will she be eating anything and they went yeah she'll have the same as us she went i don't know if she'll

like it i'm not sure we can make her anything else he was like no bring her whatever it's like tasting menu recipe plantain with i mean that stuff on the top is super fiery yeah this kid immediately in tears

she went bright red oh god

yeah no oh yeah those beans man they are really really good i think the main reason i bought jollof up and and uh ed and ben note is because uh a long-running thing on the podcast has been debate as to what the best jollof rice is oh god yeah now obviously people usually say the one that they were bought up on yeah the one that they had but you're a food critic

so we might get the definitive answer here and i know that people will still be saying he's going to be biased and say nigerian just get to end the end the jollof wars right

but you know we've not had a food critic on before we can weigh in on this debate i genuinely do believe that all jollof is is good like i feel like the you know the the jostling and the arguing over like uh different nations jollof

but you know and again i probably will be biased but i do feel like i wouldn't say it's better but all i will say is that nigerian jollof is the one that i know the one that i've kind of that i would cook like the one that i've like eaten the the most but i but i genuinely do feel that like to to kind of pit one against the other is to you know miss the point of jolof it's all good man like yeah

why are we arguing about why are we arguing over which jolof's better we could be eating jolof um so yeah and i think it's it's funny it's a funny one jolof rice isn't it because i think everyone has a slightly different like view of it but it's fascinating to introduce it to people that haven't really eaten it all their lives and they're like, this is amazing.

And so, yeah, I feel like I just try to like keep that in mind, really.

But yeah, sorry to not be able to call the truce that you wanted on the jollof wars.

Yeah, or I should have just said, yeah, Nigerians are best.

These guys don't know what they're talking about.

That's not Jollof.

I think the thing that's probably true is that Nigerians are probably like the loudest in terms of saying that like our things are the best.

That tracks as as kind of like our our sort of behavior i'd never really had jollof before but there was there's a food stall in a market near me called jollof mama and yeah i went there and got a portion of that i mean that was a big portion yeah oh i had the afternoon of my life sitting there in this huge bowl of jollof rice then i just had to sit in the park for like an hour and a half and let it all digest i think the other thing that's really fascinating about a lot of african restaurants in particular and like west african restaurants is that you get given enough food not just for that meal time like there's such a sophisticated doggy bag operation at a lot of like Nigerian restaurants like it's to feed you like for the next few days and like into the week like so I kind of love that attitude and that that feels really recognizable to me I'd go around to like my aunties and uncles or whatever I go to my mum's now and it's like you know I mean my mum I don't know anyone that like drives around with like you know like stacks of Tupperware in their like boot just in case so that they can kind of divvy up the portions of rice that they're ferrying around most of southeast London.

But yeah, no,

it's a beautiful thing.

I don't know.

I guess sometimes there can be a little bit of a frustration, not frustration, but it's almost like a victim of its own success in that it appears on every West African influence menu.

It's the thing that everyone knows.

It's the thing that everyone talks about.

And so there are other dishes and like the repertoire that other people don't necessarily know as much, that I don't even know as much.

And I think it's that thing when something's almost like a victim of its own success.

But, but I think it's a really exciting time for like, not just African influenced food, but like Caribbean influenced food.

And I think people are really discovering like the links between the two and there's a broader appreciation of like different ways of doing things.

And yeah, just kind of, it goes back to that point of maybe feeling like, oh, wow, like there are rules of, oh, this is what a.

restaurant critic sort of looks like or acts like or knows about and they know all about like fancy french food and so it's kind of

really fun to be like on MasterChef and someone's cooking something that's like West African in origin.

And I can sort of hold forth on it in a way that, like, you know, perhaps like my other kind of co-judges aren't.

And it's kind of a really like exciting time to be like, oh, wow, that's really cool.

Like, this is something that I kind of know about, and it's becoming part of the kind of shared culture.

They did, they did need that.

Your dream side dish, Jimmy.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

So this is returning a little bit to the maverick of the first dish.

I'm going to keep it West African and Nigerian specifically.

And I'm going to keep it quite spicy as well.

I'm going to have some beef suya as my side dish.

It's probably more of a snack or a starter, but it's definitely not a main.

And I think because the main that I've chosen, the beans, it's quite kind of simple.

It's quite restrained.

there's no meat on it.

Suya, for those that do not know, is a kind of like addictively fiery barbecued beef that's kind of like traditionally sold by like the roadside and kind of like little kind of outdoor grills in Nigeria.

It's northern Nigerian in origin and it's in this dry spice rub, which is called yadji specifically or suya spice.

And that's got peanuts in it.

So it's kind of mixed with like ground peanuts with kind of dried pepper it's like chili pepper it's got some ginger in there and it is like the most addictive thing you have ever had in your life genuinely it's out of control there's something about the combination of like sweet roasted peanuts and kind of quite intense heat with like charred strips of like a beef or you can have it with with chicken you get it in newspaper when you go to um if you have it traditionally in like nigeria and it's kind of you know it's quite primal you're ripping it out of the paper with your hands a cold beer as well and i think that would be a good little matchup and it's and it's the sort of thing it is one of my absolute favorite um nigerian dishes and i think i write in the book that the first time i tried it actually was some that had been smuggled into the country by by a relative who had like frozen it.

I still don't really really know how they did it.

I'd frozen it like in like a tin or something, like hidden it in their bag so that like it escaped detection and then got it to the UK and then it kind of defrosted and then they sort of like gave it to us.

And I mean, you know, the fact that I'm still eating this, like it's, you know, like when it's kind of essentially been in someone's suitcase.

But yeah, it's amazing.

And it's, it's a really, really good dish.

Yeah.

Oh, it sounds great.

Even if it hasn't been muled into the country, it still

yeah there's really really good i think you can get it all over and there's a place that delivers nationally actually called alaji suya which i would massively recommend they're in peckham and they've got like they've got a couple of locations but they've got a main one in peckham and the yeah they're they're really really good they use really tender meat they're yadgi their spice is like they give you an extra little baggie of it for the for the hardcore um and uh i would also recommend chishiru which is like quite an acclaimed restaurant that's that's in London by a chef called Jocer Bacchare.

And she does like really nice Bavette steak, like with the spicing on top.

So that's like a little sort of like edging towards bouginess version of it, but it's still as delicious.

We were going to go there once.

Were we?

Yeah, before, I think it was before COVID.

Yeah.

We booked it to go.

Yeah, I think we were going to go there.

And then it...

And then everything.

You should go.

She's amazing.

She's such a good cook.

And like, it's funny because I've eaten suya on TV shows and also like spicy dishes as well.

And it is a weird thing, isn't it?

Where I feel like I do like spice, but I don't know if it likes me as much as I like it.

Like there's a really growing body of evidence of me just like sweating and just looking like, what are you doing?

Like just like, you know, I don't know.

Like, and it was funny like growing up.

because a lot of my friends would have that thing of like wanting to get the hottest curry and you know when Nando's kind of arrived and I'd be sort of like ribbed for like, oh, if I went for, if I didn't go extra hot at Nando's.

And I think growing up with food that could be quite hot and with like a lot of spice and stuff, I just didn't really understand that kind of real, oh, God, you've got to get the hottest one.

It's got a but like, but yeah, I don't know.

How are you guys with?

Are you

spice voice?

I absolutely love it, but I wouldn't, it's certainly not for any sort of masculine proof reasons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just genuinely love it.

Like

As long as the flavour's there,

and they're married together, brilliant.

Yeah, delicious.

If there's no flavour, it's just really hot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just kind of like a blunt heat.

I like it to take me to the absolute edge.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

And when I start sweating and getting tingling at TV.

I think that's part of it, isn't it?

It's almost like physical.

Like, there's another

other end of the spectrum in terms of cuisine, but Thai, there's a few, like Speedboat Bar.

I don't know if you've been there.

We went.

Yeah, did you see that?

That's another place I went.

I went, and then the next week I went back with him.

You can see the one dish at Speedboat Bar where they were like, do you like hot food?

Like, yes.

And it came and it got me so close to the edge.

Oh, man.

But I know when I've gone over the edge because I start hiccupping.

Right.

And I just started to get the hiccups.

It was the Chinese sausage and the mustard green salad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, it's amazing.

Yeah.

The Pronceviche stuff there was off the chain.

Yeah.

I really want those again.

It's so

I remembered after we were talking about them the other day and how much we liked the food there.

And then I remembered the drink that I had that me and Jamie Dimitri ordered.

And it was like that, it was that beer.

Jelly beer.

Jelly beer.

It's got like a frozen beer that had like ginger and honey in it.

Yeah.

Holy hell.

Oh, baby.

Like that, that's a dangerous drink.

Yeah, yeah.

Gulping that down like it was juice.

I was all ready to be angry at that restaurant because it used to be the taiwanese yeah

yeah yeah yeah which i loved which the bow guys did yeah which is like the most beautiful restaurant i've ever seen yeah yeah but zoo was it zoo yeah yeah it was just a stunning restaurant yeah but that is everything is like yeah yeah

proper sort of pulse pounding i think when you do it you're like because i plaza cow gang the um the kind of precursor to that which is in arcade below center point and that was my like you know and they bring out little sort of like afterwards you have these little like milk like little almost like little shots of like pink milk that are kind of meant to like tame the spice type thing but you know when you're just like

i want more and people look at you and they're like are you sure you want more mate

you sort of look like i don't know if it's a good idea like yeah but um yeah it's so addictive and yeah like suya definitely ticks that box for me it's just such a it's such a rush it's kind of like you know to to the point where there is a little bit of a thing in Nigeria, especially in like Nigerian culture, where it's a bit like, and my mum's a little bit like, what is in that stuff?

Like, she finds it a little bit kind of, she's not sure about it.

She's suspicious.

And there's all these rumors about various kind of, you know, I think them,

I mean, I did write a piece about it.

There's various rumors of like it being almost like a bit of a natural Viagra type thing.

Like there's kind of like weird sort of

added things in there so just be aware of that yes before you have some

also those rumors are started by someone who was eating suya and got a bona right

that's just like that's the person who started that rumor yeah must be the suya so yeah

natural viagra guys

i'm hard as a rocket not that i'm an unstoppable pervert yeah

it was the suya you didn't actually have any of those what when when they so this place in peckham do they deliver it like cooked?

Is it all done?

Yeah, well, it's almost like jerky, but yeah, well, well, there is one that's more jerky-like, and that's called Killishy, and that's kind of dried, almost like a bill-tongue, but with the kind of peanutty spice to it.

The Peckham place, you can either get it like warm to go, or they do a version that you can, like, heat up at home, or they could, yeah, they ship it like so far.

Yeah, it's really good.

Um, Jay Raynor, my uh, master chef uh colleague, I got him to go there and he absolutely loved it like parked up in his car outside eating soup with a little baggie of extra yadgi which i kind of really enjoyed that mental image of him just kind of

i think he might have been in a zip car which makes it even funnier for some reason

stress ever involved in that when you're a food critic and you recommend a place to another food critic oh god yeah massively yeah yeah and i think any recommendation not just to like food critics but yeah you you do you must feel it mustn't you?

And I think there's an element of like, if they don't like this as well,

maybe we're done.

Like, you know, like there is a strange thing, isn't there?

You kind of, because it's such a great feeling when someone gets it and they get the same response.

But I think we've all had that thing of like.

oh God, you got to go there or you hear like, and they're like, we weren't sure.

And they had a bad experience for whatever, for whatever reason.

But yeah, there's definitely pronounced.

Like if I recommended somewhere to like another food critic.

But it's very, I don't know, it's rare that, that you'd kind of nud someone to go somewhere.

Like it can be very like, what did you think of that?

Oh, you like that?

Like, you know, like in a nice way, but there is that kind of slight caginess edging towards kind of competitiveness sometimes where it's kind of like you keep your cards quite close to your chest.

You're not necessarily recommending places.

See, I'm the complete opposite.

Whenever I recommend somewhere, I'll be like, it's the best meal I've ever had.

So there's no way they're ever going to enjoy it as much as I said I enjoy it.

Yeah, always good to build it up to like an absurd degree so this i need ed to send me a list of places i need to go to some new places yeah so if at some point ed you could send me a list of recommendations so the perception would be that you're like eating out all the time but you're not right are you not go through stages of it a lot but like ed is really good at finding new places going there and like you know you you can like describe a restaurant in london without saying a name and he'll know what it is

Whereas like I basically have a handful of places whenever anyone

asks me for recommendations, I'm like, here's five places and they're all places that Ed told me about.

And they tend to be the ones that, yeah, I end up going, like

there's about, I don't know, four places I really like local to me.

Yeah.

And I just tend to go to them on a bit of a loop.

I need to break.

I'm at the point now where I need to break out of that.

But I think that's good.

As somebody that maybe doesn't, and maybe this is part of the job because you're always kind of like moving ever forward and on to the next thing like the ones that I really love and really cherish are the ones that you can always go back to and kind of like that's how you build up like proper love for a place where you're like oh they've got that special on yeah oh that that tasted slightly different today oh that was a bit hotter this week or whatever and you kind of or and also that kind of certainty of like oh my god i'm in this restaurant everything's going to be all right like yeah so i think i think there's there's absolutely nothing wrong with that just going to the same places so you're fine carry carry on.

It's all right, but like, you know, especially doing this pod, you hear loads of recommendations.

You're like, I've got to go to this place.

I can't remember all of it.

But I'll remember that Ed said to every single one of them, yep, I've been there.

So I'm like, right, if Ed can send me a list of stuff, that'd be really useful.

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Your dream drink, Jimmy.

Oh, my dream drink.

Oh, it's a fascinating one this.

Do people mostly pick booze or do they not?

Yeah.

Does it tend to be a lot of?

Mostly.

I don't know if it's maybe part of the

picking a real dish of my childhood as a main

or like that nostalgia.

But I was just thinking soft drinks, like a lot of the time.

The traditional, obvious way to go to match up with that main inside would be a super malt, which is,

I'm sure you've had previously, but it's a real obsession, particularly in West Africa.

And it's weird because it's like Danish, like brewed in Denmark.

And I think it was originally designed for like the armed forces in Nigeria, like Nigerian soldiers, to kind of, because it was a way to like quickly get them like B vitamins and kind of, you know, like all this stuff.

So it's slightly strange.

It's sort of like Viagra as well, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that guy again is like, oh, careful of the super mold, guys.

I've got a boner again.

I was like,

not sure if it's the things you're eating or drinking.

But yeah, so that would be the obvious way to go.

But I'm going to go for another soft drink, which I just kind of have a weird obsession with and love and a nostalgia for.

And it is an orangina, an ice-cold orangina.

I don't know what it is.

Like my, I don't know, I had a real sort of beloved uncle who sadly is no longer with us, but he would always get us like orangina.

And maybe it's the adverts, shake the bottle, wake the taste, was it, or something like that?

exactly

the bottle.

Yeah, I know

what you're saying is it shake the bottle wake wake the taste

is it what I say to myself every day

My mantra

But yeah

just something about just something about an ice-cold orangina the fact that it had the illusion in my mind in my kind of youthful like sort of 90s kid mind of like oh this is really fresh it's got bits in it and it's like but obviously it's like yeah and the bottle yeah the bottle's sake

this is really good for me um

oh god go say again say shake the bottle wait shake the bottle wait the taste imagine if that was you asking me to shake the bottle wait the taste calling the orangina huddler

um so yeah i love orangina and i kind of almost want to like you know i don't know that you know those specific circumstances where you're like desperate for like a drink it's really hot and then yeah an ice cold orangina yeah yeah so and i feel like that would be that'd be a decent matchup with the um with the mains yeah see interestingly people do pick booze a lot of the time don't you're our third episode of the day no one's picked booze no one's picked booze today yeah all pick soft drinks all picked soft drinks that are in glass bottles wow

god what's going on and it must be because it's a hot day is it a hot day yeah

you've got us in this haman as well just anything cold really anything cold cold i was hoping for as well because you were saying childhood thing you'd picked a few things that are from nigeria yeah yeah yeah and today we've had someone picked nigerian fanta oh okay yeah in a glass bottle someone picked pepsi from was it uganda uganda wow amazing bottle amazing and i was like come on if this is three in a row in one day

african sodas in glass bottles

it'll be the weirdest hat trick we've ever heard

really strange yeah i mean i i do like nigerian Fanta or, you know, African Fanta, as you'd probably call it.

Well, when we Googled it today,

I was saying it's

specifically Nigerian Fanta, yeah.

Oh, okay, yeah.

All right, I'll just own the kind of like Nigerian exceptionalism then.

Al Jaloff is the best and the Fanta is ours.

Donate and Fanta.

Get that out of here.

I'm not sure.

Have we had Orangina?

Have you had it?

Alex Horne of Taskmaster chose Orangina as his water.

Of course he did.

Yeah.

of course he did um yeah no i love orangina yeah even like the name and i've i've i've got to say to go back to the nigerian fanta thing i don't really do masses of like sweet drinks these days like i just don't really i don't know i kind of find it fascinating people that that have a diet coke every day like i don't like no judgment but i'm just a bit like oh my god like yeah like i i just can't really do it anymore and that was that was his set the notion of drinking water in my childhood was like what the hell are you doing don't you drinking water just like put some squash in it for god's sake like you know i just i would never really drink water and i feel like you know i don't know that weird way where you kind of

betray your younger self as you kind of grow older because i'm all about just water now really all like teas and coffees and so yeah in terms of the dream restaurant and the dream meal an orangina would feel there'd be something maybe slightly illicit about it maybe even more so than booze because you know there's obviously a lot of wine and drink around do you have wine on the uh great britch menu no only if we only have booze if the chef brings it with our dish so like quite often the desserts will have like a cocktail with them or yeah yeah yeah if they really work that that old that old classic yeah and i've brought you a shot as well guys to us

or you do it like spencer metzka from the ritz who brought in like an 80 quid bottle of bordeaux with the main course all right yeah this guy means business

a main course course that got through to the banquet when it's the BBC are in charge of the budget, and it was shit one.

Tesco wine, yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, I feel like maybe the lack of a boozy option for my drink choice probably is related to work because there is a lot of more wine and a cocktail, maybe, and whatever.

And I think, yeah, there's something quite nice about just fucking fraction of soft drink.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially to cut through the spice of the yeah, kind of, yeah i think that'll work yeah the other thing that that was in the running but i don't know if this would have really gone is you mentioned bow earlier but their peanut milk oh my god i love it oh my goodness yeah

really good

peanut milk really really good do they only do it in the cafe or do they do it everywhere now I thought they did it in every one, but I could be wrong.

They might have shuffled the pack.

They definitely do it at the bow cafe.

It's really good.

And that would have been a nice little sort of echo of the uh the nuts the peanuts in the suya as well so you know that that'd be my other option and it's so good because it's kind of a drink that's basically a sort of pre-pudding as well isn't it it's kind of like this it's really good stuff no you're talking my language yeah one of the best phrases in the english language

pre-pudding

Well, let's get on to your dessert in that case.

Yeah.

Do you know what?

I think we can allow, we let people have more than one drink in the past.

If you want oranginio and you're the dream drink, but you want a peanut milk as the bridge between your main course and your pudding.

Oh, my God.

You can have it.

I've just remembered that I was going to ask for more rule breaking at the end.

Yeah, that's it.

Shall we see how we go?

It'll be after the pudding.

Because do you let people have a coffee?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Come on.

And a very specific kind of coffee.

Okay, so my pudding,

I would like a ice cream sundae and i want it made with two very specific types of kind of soft serve ice cream one

is the toasted rice gelato from a place called superiority burger have you been there in new york they've they've moved into bigger premises now and it's a kind of vegetarian burger place run by a guy called brooks headley who used to be in bands like punk bands and stuff and it's like but worked as a pastry chef amazing tiny little place real sort of like punk spirit to it.

They'd have all these kind of changing veg, veg-based dishes and also like the greatest gelato you've ever had in your life.

I went to New York in 2019, went there and yeah, I had this toasted rice one that was just unbelievable.

It was like rice crispy milk, like cereal milk like, but kind of, you know, even better than that sound.

So that was really good.

So with that, in my ice cream sundae, and then also a Wendy's Frosty, which I

like America was like a really formative like I don't know like place or like I went I would go there quite a lot as a kid because I've got family like uncles and aunties dotted around like the states like places like Miami and places like that and so I really remember going to America and just I was obsessed with America as a lot of kind of 90s children were and I think maybe even more so as a kind of immigrant kid you're sort of like oh wow like America's so cool and having relatives in America was this really big thing.

And it just completely lived up to like my insane building it up and promise.

And I just really remember going to Wendy's and it's like, oh my God, their burgers are square.

Like,

like what?

Like, it just does nothing to it.

But it's like, they're square burgers.

And having a frosty, which, which I was always fascinated that it wasn't.

there wasn't a flavor.

It was just the frosty was the frosty.

And I think it's a bit of chocolate and a bit of vanilla, slightly off-putting, almost like off-grey colour, but just so nice, so sort of creamy and like delicate.

So I'd have an ice cream sundae with those two mixed in.

And I just love a sundae.

I love the idea of...

You've got sauce or cream?

Yeah, I'm going to have some sauce.

I'm going to have some

sort of like hot FUD sauce maybe on top.

And then maybe we'll crumble a bit of the marksman's brown butter custard tart in there.

We will have a little bit of a happy endings ice cream sundae crumbled in there.

multi the multi one which I think is like gen genuinely one of the most perfect kind of puddings that you can get so yeah a little bit of crunch and then these two a soft serve ice creams and then just roll over and fall asleep yeah yeah sounds like a good son I mean also that's the second self-designed Sunday we've had oh really what is going on

is mad today and the same person shouted out the frosty did they yeah which is the first time that's ever this had it before?

We've never had it before.

Never had it.

Two in a row.

He's probably still out there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he was like, say, Frosty.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, and then, yeah, loads of R's next to W's as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just chuck them in as much as you can.

Wendy's Frosty, yeah, there's some W's and R's flying around.

I mean, it's not my biggest worry at the minute

on this menu.

But

sounds delicious.

And nicely happy endings get a shout out that is I had that one that ice cream sandwich

just recently.

I think

we had to forcibly stop ourselves from buying them.

Me and my wife, you know, when you're just a bit like,

this is getting a little bit out of hand.

Where you both independently bring one home as a treat.

Yeah.

And you're like,

I got happy endings.

She's like, I got them too.

Yeah, but they're so good.

I mean, they're all great.

And Terry, who runs Happy Endings, is awesome.

She's like a good thing as well.

But I think that's

it's amazing that you can just obviously in quite fancy shops but you can just buy that in a shop like something that kind of perfect and beautifully put together.

They're really good.

Yeah.

They got a standard Victoria Park and sometimes

I go on walks and then end up in Victoria Park and I find myself naturally walking towards it, hoping it's going to be open.

But then anytime it's closed, I always think, that's for the best.

You need to be sort of saved from yourself.

because I've actually not had one in ages because I think it did just get a little bit out of hand when we were having them like really, really regularly.

When you have to forcibly ban yourself from having something, like it's, I don't know, is it good?

Is it bad?

It's about common to them.

I think it is.

Yeah, and

I'm all about puddings.

It's a strange thing, and this is kind of a bit of a food world thing where everyone's kind of quite often always tripping over themselves to tell you how little of a sweet tooth they've got and how much they don't really like puddings and it's always seen as this like mark of sophistication isn't it like it's like oh i don't really like puddings it's like come on

come on puddings are great come on a bunch of dickheads

you know although i don't have a sweet tooth and you're right when every time that we've had that phrase said many times

i don't have a sweet tooth and they always say it like yeah that's a good thing or something about them or that makes them interesting yeah make you interested most people say it who come on here so you're not

more exciting if you're an adult who still goes out the way to have an ice cream sandwich yeah who happens to go on a walk to victoria park every single day

to the same spot my feet go where they go

oh back here again okay there you go it's good's closed i'll try and jimmy open the shutters if we can crawl in but yeah jimmy does that so much yeah

yeah that's true yeah

Yeah, I say I had to forcibly stop myself from buying them.

There was a bad scene with some Jimmy'd open shuttles that was a restraining yeah yeah yeah oh yeah you have a coffee order at the end of this oh yes my coffee order so the coffee that i'm gonna get and i wonder if you've had this it's from a place called forts of win which is in south london camberwell benito's got his head in his hands he's loves it so much clearly the custardo is it that is that's what you thought he was gonna say

the custardo yes he said oh my god it is a shot of espresso with

they make their own custard basically, like, you know, sort of like a frozen custard type thing.

And it is unbelievable.

It is out of control.

The sort of the combo of like amazing, you know, like I always quite like the thought of like an afogato.

And I think, oh yeah, like, you know, to go back to that idea of, oh, no, I don't really do puddings.

Like, it feels a little bit like the kind of, you know, interesting artist choice, like, oh, an afogato.

But they always slightly disappoint me.

But a custado feels like what an affogato should be.

Like it's like amazingly creamy, sweet, rounded custard with

this like beautiful, intense shot of coffee in it.

And it's so nice.

It almost tastes like eggnog or something like that.

And yeah, so that'll be my little.

Oh, well, we're going there now.

Yeah, fairly old.

Forts of wind.

It's absolutely inspired.

Yeah.

What's it called?

That's pressed.

Forts and wind.

Forts and winds up on the roof, which is very good.

But yeah, Forts of Wynn, which is now in Camberwell, used to be in Peckham, and a custardo there, one of their custados, just to kind of cap this insane meal for a man that already eats too much.

I suppose I must be, but sometimes I'm like, am I a good eater?

And I'll be midway through like a meal, and I'll be like, I'm already full.

And I'm like, I should probably be a better eater than this.

Yeah, but it's what you do at that point that makes you a good eater or not.

That's true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Some people stop.

Yeah, some people would stop.

Yeah.

Yeah, some people would stop.

You can't stop.

You've got a sundae and a castado to have.

But yeah, custado.

Oh, so good.

Well, I'll read your menu back to you now, see how you feel about it.

You like sparkling water, pop-doms of bread.

You would like half from Babur poppadoms and half from Bibby.

Yes.

Cheese poppadoms with all the dips.

Starter, a trio of small sandwiches.

You want the mackerel from Mango 2, the Dexter cheeseburger from the Plimp Soul and a KFC Zinger Tama burger, all nice and small, slider size.

Main, Iwa Riro.

How was that?

Yeah, yeah, bang on.

I said that right,

yeah.

From with Karen, let's hear it again.

Oh,

yeah, and it's uh, Coffo Famare was Elwar Riro.

What's her first name?

Coffo, coffee famare was

coffee famarai was

hell.

That is

genuinely hard.

I'm not doing this for lunch.

Coffee femme-re-was iwa-riro.

Yay!

I don't know.

I don't know.

That's good.

Side dish, beef suya.

Drink ice-cold orangina, and then a peanut milk from Bao to bridge over into our dessert, which is an ice cream sundae and has toasted rice gelato from Superiority Burger, Wendy's Frosty, then hot fudge sauce, a marksman brown butter custard tart crumbled over it, and Happy Ending's ice cream sandwich the malted one um jammed in there and then at the end of all that the custado from forzal win yes amazing pretty outstanding oh my god that is great i mean i'm really pleased with that absolutely definitely having the custado we got

but i really want beef suya because i've never had that before i mean hearing that hearing that back are you thinking like yes that'd be that would be a what a yeah night what a night that'd be yeah i'm pretty pleased with that i i've i've got to say

you know, thank you for allowing me the rule bend on the starters.

I just, I can even see those little sandwiches.

You know what I mean?

I can like really envisage it.

And I just think it would be a great, great way to kick it all off.

Maybe organise like a fundraising charity dinner or something where you get all those guys in to make that sandwich first.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so what have you got us here for, Jimmy?

Right.

We're just going to do them really small.

All right.

Can we raise the money for?

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll work that out.

No, I'm really, really pleased with that.

Thank you for indulging me.

That was, oh my God, that's made me quite hungry.

Maybe I am a good eater after all.

Well, we expect a good review.

Thank you, Jimmy.

Thank you.

There we are, as expected.

Brilliant episode, brilliant menu.

Lovely man.

Benito is so happy that the custardo got a shout-out.

It's nice to see Benito as happy as this after an episode.

Yeah, never happened before.

Never happened that it's been well, he's never been happy after an episode, but also never has there been a shout out for something that he loves this much.

Benito's face after every episode is very much the face of a man who's thinking, how am I supposed to edit that shit?

Yeah.

He's figuring out in his head how many of these we'll have to make, which means I won't have to make them anymore.

But there you go.

Also, thank you to Jimmy for all your free recommendations, but also for not saying cauliflower rice.

Thank the Lord.

Yeah, we appreciate that.

It means we didn't have to kick him out.

And we can, once again, plug Settlers by Jimmy Famarewa: Journeys Through Food, Faith, and Culture of Black African London.

That is out now on paper.

In paperback, it's out now in paperback.

That means he's already slammed it.

He's already knocked it out of the park in hardback.

Bloomsbury continuum.

So go and get that.

Give it a read.

I certainly am.

Thank you very much for listening.

Or audiobook.

Or audiobook.

Thank you very much for listening to the Off Menu Podcast.

We will see you again next week.

Yummy, yummy, yumma.

Hello, I'm Carrie Add.

I'm Sarah.

And we are the Weirdos Book Club podcast.

We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival.

The date is Thursday, the 11th of September, the time is 7pm, and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies.

Tickets from kingsplace.co.uk.

Single ladies is coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September.

At the London Podcast Festival.

The rumours are true Saturday, the 13th of September.

At King's Place.

Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet.