‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

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I will say.

I did.

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What did we talk about?

I believe it was the Ben Affleck Justin Timberlake gambling movie.

I believe that.

Oh, God.

Well, this movie is way better than that.

One of the best movies.

It was not a rewatchable.

This was a, we watched it and may never watch it again.

Well, 20th anniversary of Broke Back Mountain, and we're going to talk about it right after this.

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All right, Broke Back Mountain 20 years ago,

this summer, Heath Ledger died

about three years after it came out.

And this was already, I think, in the conversation for one of the, I don't know, 20, 25 best movies of the century.

But the Heath Ledger piece has changed the content.

There's so many ways to talk about this movie and so many ways to feel about it in 2025, how we felt about it in 2005, all the things it meant.

But watching it 20 years later, the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance.

Yes.

And you just see the potential of this whole career that we should still be enjoying.

And by the end of the decade, he's gone.

Yep.

I mean, terrible.

And

while, you know, I have really,

I had not watched this movie in its entirety since it came out,

since the period in which it was a thing.

And you must have written about it, right?

I wrote about it.

I think I wrote the only thing I think I wrote about it was in the aftermath of the Oscars.

Yeah.

And it's losing to crash, which we'll talk about.

But

I think that's the only time.

And I will say I was 20,

what was that, 27, 28?

And I wasn't,

I wasn't ready for,

I don't think I was ready to receive, I was 29 when this movie came out.

And I don't, I was, I was disappointed that there wasn't more fucking.

I distinctly remember that.

And I think because I was young and single

and I was having a lot of great sexual adventures with.

with and with the Ennis Del Mars of the world, I should say.

They weren't ranchers, but they did other things in the Boston area.

I didn't think you'd dial it up this fast.

Sorry, I'm ready.

I'm just

remembering, I'm just remembering what my life was like.

And I remember thinking,

like a lot of people probably, like, this isn't hot enough.

I want the, I want a hotter movie.

Because you felt like Hollywood hadn't really gone here with a big market movie like this and they were finally doing it.

So you wanted them to push the envelope as much as they could.

Yeah, I think, and I'm going to go to hell for saying this, and I now know better.

And also, just to be clear, I was a serious film critic at this time, but I'm speaking as a human civilian person who also had a job to type for a living.

Um,

I think, I think there's a part of me that was like, I wonder what the Joel Schumacher version of this movie would have been like.

Oh my god, I know, with machine, machine

straight to hell

turns into a snuff film for the second half.

Right.

But I mean, I think, I don't know.

I'm disappointed.

I was disappointed in the movie.

And now, having seen it.

Well, how'd you feel about it this time?

Low, these years later, I'm disappointed in myself.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

What an adult movie.

What, I mean, sorry.

What a movie for adults this is.

It is not an adult movie, to be clear.

I just, that was my issue, but before.

I think think

it is such a patient movie that is so much more about being able to love

and

wanting to both be loved and to be in love

with all these really subtle, real-world human questions and concerns.

I don't know.

I mean, wait, do you remember when you saw it?

I saw it with an audience for the first time at the Coolidge

in 2000.

December 2015, I didn't see it in the theater.

I saw it as a pay-per-view

with my wife.

We had just had, my daughter was born that year, and we weren't like, there weren't a lot of couple movies and we wanted to see it together.

So we saw it

as a pay-per-view.

And, you know, like a big part of the movie and the marketing and just the word of mouth with it was like the sex scene and these two pretty famous young actors and oh my god they have like sex in this and there's a and you kind of knew it was coming.

It was almost like the shark in jaws.

And now, all these years later,

the shark in jaws.

The shark's coming at some point.

You knew the scene was coming.

Yeah.

Now, 20 years later, it's like this is all over the place.

And you think, like, I don't want to use the word cutting edge, but it just was a little ahead of its time with.

with what it was trying to do for a bigger market that now is is just all you could go to amazon you go netflix you can see it in a million movies yeah it felt pretty tame compared to what's out there now I think that the radical,

I think that

we kind of have to go back to 2005 for a second.

Please do, because

it was a big part of the marketing of the movie.

It's a big part why it didn't win the Oscar.

I think this movie wins the Oscar hands down now.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, if you think about what's not going on in Moonlight, for instance, right?

Like, and I didn't leave Moonlight being like, there's not enough fucking in Moonlight.

Like,

Wesley, you are missing the point here.

Yeah.

You don't need that because that's not what the movie's about.

And

live mixed feelings about that, but about the depiction of sex, both in this movie and in general between men.

But in 2005, the revolutionary aspect of this movie was that you just weren't

to play a quote regular guy who was also who found himself in love with a man

to find the actors to play these parts challenging.

There's nothing inherently heroic in this story.

The story is a tragedy on a number of levels.

And

nothing about it is inherently showy.

So,

what's really in it for an actor,

for a young actor to say yes to

that is going to guarantee them

something

meaningful on the other side of making it.

Well, what's funny about that is they couldn't find Anastel Maher for years.

And it was, they looked around and they, and all the typical suspects, like people like, we could talk about it later with Casting Wood Ifs.

I don't want to spoil it, but there's some people who are like, I'm not doing a movie like that.

And

now I think in 2025, people would want parts like this and they wouldn't care about

this might be bad for my career is the thing people would say in the mid-2000s yes well i mean because it was probably true right

and

i think

i mean i wonder i mean i don't know if now is the time to really talk about this but like i really wonder because watching it

and again i've this the the movie lives in the culture in this very interesting way apparently because I'd really I've seen it I've seen parts of it over the years.

I'd never sat down to watch it from beginning to end until we were going to talk.

Yeah.

But

many of the shots in that movie of Jake Gyllenhal and Heath Ledger seemed

deeply familiar to me.

Like the scenes of them,

the scenes in where like the shots of them holding the frame together,

the close-ups of their of their heads alongside each other, of their

of, you know, Heath Ledger laying on Jake Gyllenhal in bed.

The shot of Heath Ledger coming up behind Jake Gyllenhal and holding him by the campfire and saying,

you're sleeping like a horse right now.

Right.

It's like one of the most beautiful things one person has ever said to another person, weirdly,

especially two men.

I wonder if the iconography of this movie and just the power of its,

effect of it on Jake Jillenhall's career and the fact that Heath Ledger is not here anymore.

I don't know.

I mean, I've never read any, I've never read him talk about what this movie has

did or didn't do for him or did or didn't do him for him.

Yeah.

But I

just have been thinking about

his career in the wake of this movie and how interesting it has been.

Well, remember in the, I remember the, maybe the 06 06 SBs or 07 SBs.

I forget who the host was.

It might have been Lance Armstrong.

They made like a brokeback joke.

Oh, sure, because they were buddies, right?

Yeah.

And they're, and I remember in the research, Heath Ledger was like, they, Oscars wanted to do something with it at the Oscars.

He's like, I'm not, that's not what this movie's about.

Like, he took it really seriously.

Like, we don't, we're not joking about this, but

in the mid-2000s, you did joke about it.

You know, and I think you mentioned Moonlight, Call Me By Your Your Name is another one where within about 10, 12 years there, it just became,

I don't want to say accepted, but more normalized than in movies and TV.

Like we've talked about this before, but that Melrose Place episode where they edited out the guys kissing.

Oh, my God.

That was nice.

That was 12 years before this.

Yes.

Yes.

So you think about how this moves with gays and queer stuff in films.

And it's just, this was right at the vortex as it's shifting, but it hadn't shifted yet.

No.

And I think, well, if you think about this, that year,

your five best picture nominees were Good Night and Good Luck, Crash,

Brokeback Mountain, Capote,

and Munich.

And

Aaron Fauna.

Yeah.

Before he was relegated to being on Untamed on Netflix and the Yellowstone Park, Solving Murder.

So the craziest sex of those five best picture nominees was in Munich.

But I mean, you had that year Broke Back Mountain on the one hand and Capote on the other, right?

Yeah.

You at least you were you were seeing movies with depictions of two gay men or like depictions, two movies about gay men in them or men who

are attracted to men.

I mean, we can we can talk later about like what their sexual orientation is, Jake and and or Jack and Ennis in uh

in Brokeback Mountain.

There was a lot at the time I remember that.

Yeah, but it was a topic of like it was a oh, it was a topic.

Wait, are these guys gay, bisexual, bisexual, or what's going on?

The gays were really annoyed.

They wanted some flags.

I mean, not all the gays, but I mean, it was a conversation.

Like, how do what is our terminology here for these two?

So, wait, can we hold that point for a second?

Yes.

I had something in this for later.

We can come back to it, too.

Because this was a big part of the dialogue.

And it's also different of how people probably talk now.

But in 2015, Jill Jill and Hall said that it was a gay love story and that his character was the more overtly gay of the two.

Absolutely 100%.

In 2005, Ledger said, I don't think Ennis could be labeled as gay without Jack Twist.

I don't know that he ever would have come out.

I think the whole point was that it was two souls that fell in love with each other.

That is also true.

He would have said it differently now, but his point stands.

Yeah.

My interpretation, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times because it's one of my wife's probably like seven, eight favorite movies.

I get it.

And when it's on, she's just like, I love this.

She loves Heath Ledger.

So it's just kind of been on in my house a bunch.

And I, the more I've seen pieces of it or watched it, I think Jack Twist is clearly gay.

Yes.

But I don't know about Ennis.

I just think he

Enos, what is it Ennis?

Enos.

Ennis.

Yeah, Ennis Delmar.

I had an Uncle Enos.

Very well.

I want to call him Enos, but I know it's Ennis.

Ennis.

I do think Jack Twist would, because they, there's like, he checks out Heath Ledger in the beginning of the movie.

I mean, we're

going to talk.

He goes to Mexico.

Like, they, like, I do think he was gay.

I don't, I don't know about Ennis, though.

But it doesn't

matter.

It doesn't work that way.

Like, it basically is.

I mean, you know,

this movie as a work of politics, which it explicitly is not, but obviously.

is going to abut politics anyway.

The politics of this movie, to the extent that there are any that it is espousing, it's really the most benign sort of politics, which is, you know, listen, love is going to do what love is going to do.

I can't control what my heart wants.

And the amazing thing, though, about

their first sex scene, their only sex scene that we see.

Yeah.

is that

and you know we should say this this movie was based on the annie prouls short story that ran in the New Yorker in 1997.

And immediately everybody's trying to buy the rights to it.

Somebody does.

And then they try to make the movie free.

She's convinced

by the eventual screenwriters that this is a good idea and they can do it.

But in the story,

also in the movie, but to read how Ennis responds to Jack's grabbing his hand and in the story, putting it on his dick.

Like he grabs his hand and puts it on his cock in the story.

In the movie, he just puts it around his chest.

And

Ennis

stirs, wakes up, and is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

But there's something so

like I got, I get, like, it takes my breath away thinking about

what Heath Ledger does as an actor in that moment and what's, you know, what the what the directions for him are to do in that moment, which is basically to like take his cock out and start fucking Jake Gyllenhaal.

Like it's automatic.

There's no thought happening here, right?

Like he automatically, he is instantly repulsed by this because he's shocked that this thing that like Jake Gyllenhaal sees in the first shot of the movie is been brought to bear on Heath.

Who knows what Ennis has been thinking all these years about who he is and what he wants?

I don't know if there's a lot going on upstairs for Ennis.

There's clearly enough going on upstairs for him to know to keep all the doors locked.

Right.

Right.

That in and of itself is a full-time job.

And then talk like Buffalo Bill and Silence of Lamps.

Those were his things.

I knew you were going to.

I knew you were.

I knew it.

I knew it.

I knew it.

Every time I see this movie, I remember talking to one another.

But you know, sometimes when British and Australian actors

go that route, what I hear as a moviegoer is them trying to suppress the original accent.

I don't hear the remarkable thing about

studied like Wyoming and Texas accents.

It just sounds like a guy who talks that way from Wyoming.

It just sounds like where he comes from.

So I had a couple lists.

I'll throw these at you.

Anyway, wait, hold on.

I'm just, all of that sex stuff was just to say, like,

I think he knew what to do

with that moment.

And he never recoiled from the sex part of the operation.

I just, I don't know.

I mean, he didn't have a word for it.

Nobody had a word.

Like, clearly says after they do it, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not queer, right?

Right.

And Jack says,

me either, which is exactly what a guy would say when the guy that you want to be with is like, you know, i don't like to do this except for with you right and then i'm like next time i don't like it his back yeah anyway go on so 21st century movies because there's been a lot of talk about the first 25 years just with everything sports culture all this stuff

and uh you know and sean's doing the the 25 countdown and this movie clearly is in the in the 25 but i was thinking like not on the new york times greatest movies

i don't think it was i know i think there was really Crouching Tiger Hit.

There were two.

Maybe it was.

I can't remember now.

I really can't remember now.

Well, I was thinking.

Definitely wasn't in the top 20.

21st century movies that either won the Oscar or should have, but then also culturally became a thing.

And I think it's There Will Be Blood, Social Network, Dark Knight, No Country for Old Ben, Brokeback Mountain, Oppenheimer are the six.

Oh, movies that made money.

Yes.

Yes.

Sparked weeks and weeks of real cultural conversation, elevated stars.

Burbeck Mountain is on the list.

17.

I just remembered.

It's on the list.

17 on the list.

Okay.

And we're awesome movies that have kind of stood the test of time.

And I'm sure there's more.

And people can make whatever list they want.

And I'm sure there's more obscure ones or movies that didn't do that well.

But

I think those six from the first 25 years resonated in like a specific way.

that I'm not sure other movies.

And maybe you could put Black Panther in there or Creed.

Like you can, you can start finagling the list however you want but just know that those six have to be on it yes it makes sense uh

well it depends on how you're evaluating this but 100 yeah i don't disagree with all those movies made money yes elevated stars in some way were re-watchable and in some sort of way from a filmmaking and they were quotable Right.

I mean, there were

like one of ones.

Like they were movies.

All those movies are movies that were like, I've never quite seen a movie like that.

Yes.

And

I wanted to put, there was a couple other ones that were on the front.

I was just thinking about

Moonlight.

There's some that are close, but I don't.

There was some sort of cultural conversation that those movies started that was different.

I feel those feel definitely at the top of that pile.

And I'm sure I left that a couple.

Anyway,

but then there's another list, and you'll be better at this with me than me, but the Star-Cross lover list.

Oh, sure.

Titanic, Romeo and Juliet, West Side Story.

But it's a thing that everybody tries to do, but not a lot of movies actually pull it off.

We're just like, man, I just really wish those two would get together.

Oh,

they're not going to make it, but they should.

And it's like the oldest device of movies, and yet great movies can't pull it off.

It's hard to do because you really have to.

This movie is quite powerful, is a really powerful example of it.

It's surprising how effective it is, given how little time these two people on screen spend together.

Right, right.

They're basically together the first 25 minutes or the first 30 minutes.

Yep.

And then intermittently after that.

But they're not together the whole movie.

And so you really have to believe.

And I think this is why Jake Jillenhall's performance is kind of underrated to me.

I was thinking it was a little cruise rain man-y, how that Goldman used to write about the part that nobody talks about as a hard part because the other person was so good in it.

he's very, very good in this movie.

And I think if both performances, if there are two Heath ledgers in this movie, it doesn't work, right?

Yeah, you need, you need to understand,

first of all,

well, I don't know, should we just talk about

what it is Jake Gyllenhaal is playing here?

Um,

I'm should I buckle up again?

Craig, you're all right.

You want to put on a second seat pod?

Because I actually think this performance is really worked out.

They're both both performances are really worked out.

We'll get to the women in this movie because at least two of them have really worked something out in a in a way that is very emotionally affecting to me.

But I think that both Heath Ledger and Jack and Jake Gyllenhal

figured out exactly who they were playing.

And I think Jake Gyllenha kind of gets the shirt under the stick here because it's a much more familiar

place

for an actor to be, right?

Well, he's the goofy dreamer.

Yes.

He gets to act wacky.

And he's courting.

He is essentially, I mean, I don't want to gender this.

I don't want to sort of conventionally gender this, but like he's essentially doing two things at the same time.

He's, he's the pursuer.

Yeah.

and he's the moony romantic, right?

He's doing the work of two archetypes at the same time.

And in that opening shot, which is just one of the most extraordinary things that I had really not appreciated at the time, I'm sure I remember thinking it was erotic, but it's so much more than eroticism that's happening in that opening shot, which is basically Heath Ledger arriving at the

Randy Quaid's trailer.

yeah when you put it that way it sounds like randy quaid is involved but basically he's not involved they're arriving for this work

and although randy quaid i gotta say he's looking real good in this movie he's really he you're not supposed to i mean listen he's some good sneering in this he was he was he was speaking to me oh randy oh oh bad randy that wasn't on my uh bingo cart today well i stick with me bill if you've not been paying attention all these years like like i mean it's it's the Randy Quaids of the world who are incredibly satisfying because nobody's paying that much attention.

I'm going to put that in my notes.

The point is, Heath Ledger shows up, gets out of the truck,

stands against the trailer, waiting for it to open

because he's not there yet.

Or I guess it's locked.

Heath

Joe and Hall comes in.

Quaid's not there yet.

And they just stand outside

and proceed to raise and lower their heads.

And it's just

extraordinary the choreography here.

And what Gyllenhaal knows, because I do believe that at this point

Ennis has not had sex with a man before.

Oh, God, no.

I think he

might not quite even understand that what he might have been feeling for men was sexual attraction, right?

Do you think Ennis like even graduated ninth grade?

No, they're both high school dropouts.

Yeah.

Neither one of them graduated.

He probably met Alma when she was 14, and that's probably the only girlfriend he ever had.

And I think they're going to marry Alma.

Monic Mook.

I know they were together.

You got to bring subtitles on.

I knew you were going to bring it.

Of course, it is.

Well, he doesn't have that many lines.

Yeah.

So they're just lowering and raising their heads as they cruise each other

outside this trailer.

And Gyllenhaal knows what he's doing.

Ledger doesn't understand.

Well, I'll talk in the characters' names.

Jack knows what he's doing.

Ennis does not.

Ennis is experiencing something happening to him that Jack is

trying to

manufacture.

It's a little like the before sunrise scene in the listening booth.

Oh, interesting.

When they're kind of looking at each other, but at different times.

But only

Jack Twist is looking.

Ennis doesn't know that he's in the game yet.

Well,

Ennis knows that something is happening, but I don't think he entirely understands what it is because he's feeling something.

He is uncomfortable.

He's very nervous.

He can't wait to eat beans with this guy.

Yeah.

There's going to be beans for the next four months.

He's definitely intrigued.

A lot of beans.

Nothing more romantic than beans.

As an aphrodisiac.

Canned beans, not creative.

They have like flatulence to really get the romance spark.

Listen, Angley directed this movie.

He tried to like get you with their flatulence, but we know what is probably happening.

No, but you're right.

It's a cat and mouse game from that first scene.

And it is so patient.

I think one of the things with this movie compared to what we have to deal with now with most of the terrible movies we have to watch is that people, we just have to, I have to have dialogue.

I have to have a loud song here.

I have to have a transition music for the montage.

And this movie's just like, dude, come hang out with us with the mountains for the next half hour.

We're going to herd some sheep, eat some beans, we're going to have some stealthy conversation.

We're going to ride a couple horses.

I also think that what was, the thing that's sort of interesting here, and it's easy to miss this stuff because

we don't really, like, most people, I think, don't really deal with sheep herding, right?

Most people don't have to deal with like seems confusing.

They're not, they're not, they're not living a rancher life.

Craig, harder than running a fantasy team?

Sheep herding?

It's pretty tough now.

fantasy it seems really like running like four teams

so i mean i've i've got my little handy notebook here but like basically these two guys are their jobs are the camp tender and the herder yeah right so at night

one of them has to go back down to the sheep so the wolves don't get them that's basically the assignment here keep these sheep alive And it means they spend a lot of time apart and one guy stays at camp and sort of maintains an environment there there for the other guy to be able to

get whiskey ready, sleep and eat.

Yeah.

But

what is happening, what Angle and James Seamus, sorry, what Angle and the screenwriters, Larry McMurtry and

oh, Mayor.

Annie or something.

No, no, no.

Diana.

Diana Asana, something like that.

Yes, yes.

They wrote the screenplay.

They adapted Annie Poole's story.

And

what you're seeing here, along with some very good editing, is

time sort of

shrink with these two guys.

And the more time they spend with each other, the less time they want to spend apart.

Yeah.

And they switch jobs where one guy becomes the herder and the other guy becomes the tender.

And it's kind of fascinating because what you see

is

the rigidity of Ennis sort of begin to relax a little bit as the the time passes?

And well, we had that one scene.

What does he say?

Like,

Jack says, that's more words than you said in two weeks.

He's like, that's more words than I said in a year.

Yeah.

You're like, oh man,

you're getting good at it and it's kind of turning me on.

You need to stop.

Michael Myers is getting turned on too over there.

He's staring at me.

Stop it.

All right, I'll stop.

I just like the thing that's beautiful about this movie is also the thing that is strangest about it from the standpoint of how you watch people fall in love with movies at movies.

And it's, it's all about

the passage of time.

And what they give you is seasons changing.

Yeah.

Environments changing.

There are a lot of shots of the sheep doing their thing.

You get a lot of shots in nature.

A lot of wide shots of the mountain sunrise.

And of the mountains.

And you,

you are, what you're falling in love with is both the environment that clearly is responsible for the

closing of

the gap between these two men.

And this environment is bringing them together as much as

their

innate desire for company, for closeness, and eventually in the scene that brings them sexually together, warmth.

right?

Yeah.

Because Ennis is sleeping outside the tent and Jack is like, Jesus Christ, will you just get in here?

I'm tired of hearing you shivering and your teeth chattering.

And Ennis comes in and Jack makes his move.

So

this movie solidifies Ledger and Jill and all as A-listers, I think.

Right.

Yeah.

Solidifies Aang Li, who was already kind of there because he had had the ice storm and a bunch of good ones.

Can we talk about, when do we talk about Aang Li?

Can do it right now.

He's he's a two-time Oscar winning director, which there's only 19 of them.

That seems relevant.

Yeah.

Wedding banquet, Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

Does the Hulk was during that weird era where they started trying to get directors like him to do superhero movies?

And let's talk about the Hulk.

Audible back to Broke Back after The Hulk's a disaster and has broke back and left.

What the Hulk?

I don't, I mean, The Hulk, I just want to parenthetically say,

I think it's like one of the best.

Really?

Oh, totally.

Of that ilk of

motion picture.

Oh.

Definitely the best.

Well, he didn't think so.

He was bummed out by it.

What's how would you describe his style, in your opinion, with all those different movies that, because he's done a bunch of different types of movies, right?

But what's what is what is his like, what is his strikeout pitch?

Perception.

I think he is waiting to see what happens.

He often, I think, knows what he's looking for in a scene.

I think he really studies

the text.

He knows the text, but the things that are variable are what the people do.

And he's very, I think he, I think his strength is observation.

And it's both the observation of what is happening on the page, but also the intangible properties of what happens once what he knows is on the page page gets in front of the camera.

Yeah.

And

I think there are so many, he, I mean, I, you know, the other word I would use is, is remote, but that's kind of, that sounds pejorative, but he's such an observant director.

And that's a way that people tend to think about him, which is he frequently is making movies about worlds he knows nothing about as a from a life experience standpoint.

Apparently now he's doing a Bruce Lee movie.

Yeah, I mean mean, his son is Bruce Lee, is what he's developing.

But he hasn't done a movie in like six years.

Yeah, I don't, I miss him.

I would have said the same, I would have said perceptive would have been the word I used or patient.

Yeah.

Because, yeah.

And it's something that I just think there's more and more bad content every year.

And of course, I watch a lot of it, but

people just think with movies just loaded with dialogue and load music.

But very rarely do you see anybody just kind of bring you into a world and

just kind of leaving you there ease you into it.

Take your time and trusting that you'll stay and you don't mind.

My name was like that, too, where it's like that's just kind of

moving you into a place.

Yes.

I prefer this movie

in a lot of ways.

I mean, from for all kinds of reasons.

I think this movie is better.

I think, but that patience is a huge part of it.

Yeah.

Right.

His ability to just sort of like trust us to be able to follow the beats of what is happening between these two men.

If they never had that tent scene, right?

I mean, it's probably a different movie, but the filmmaking is so good here.

He's such a PG 13 version of it.

Well, I mean, if they're just like if everything, if it's 1950 and we're making Brokeback Mountain, right?

Which, by the way, welcome to Bud Bodaker and Randolph Scott.

I mean, that movie, but Brokeback Mountain happened all the time without the tent scene.

But I think that he could have gotten away with just giving you the romance of these two people without the sex.

Well, it's funny that we have more sex scenes with men and women than we do with the two guys.

But you, I mean, think about

what the one sex scene with

the Michelle Williams character

Alma is doing.

I mean,

you know, I mean, in the story, it's such

it's such great writing that Annie Pruls is doing describing what the experience is like from her point of view, which you don't quite get.

The movie is very faithful to the story, including its like blinks of interiority, which it brings out in dialogue

and

points of view.

But yeah, like most of the sex you're seeing in this movie is officially heterosexual.

But, you know, we understand the psychologies of these people.

So we understand what's underneath it too.

We're taking a break and then we get to talk about the the actors.

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So Angley said

he casts these four leads, and it's four actors

at fascinating points of their career.

Michelle Williams is basically a TV actress.

Dawson's Creek.

She was in Halloween H2O.

Hadn't really come through with a movie like this.

Hathaway was Princess Brides.

Wasn't she making

a Princess Bride?

Or making Princess Diaries?

Princess Diaries.

Yeah, Princess Diaries.

I mean, all these Goldman books, they keep tricking me.

But she hadn't been in, you know, anything like this and really fought to be in it.

Ledger was on the radar with a bunch of stuff.

Like, he got offered Spider-Man, turned it down.

He was in 10 Things I Hate About You.

Excellent.

He was a patriot.

He's really good in Monster's Ball, which is

Monster Ball or Monster's Ball?

Monster's Ball.

Monsters Ball.

Yeah.

A movie that will not be on the rewatchables.

It's one of the most

harrowing, disturbing movies.

If you did a double feature of that in Million Dollar Baby, I think you would just drive your car off a cliff.

I mean, just think about who's in that movie.

Halle Berry, Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, Puffy.

The craziest sex scene I think that's ever been in a mainstream movie where I actually 100%.

I would bet that they were actually fucking in that, right?

I mean,

I don't know how they weren't.

I'm waiting for Halle Berry to call the phone.

Where's the bat phone?

Where's the cat?

Hallie, tell us what happened.

But yeah, so Heath Ledger's in that and he's great.

And he's kind of on the radar, but this is the movie that does it for him.

And then Jake had been a child actor and, you know, was in a bunch of...

He was in child movies.

So he had.

I don't remember.

I mean, I remember.

Well, Donnie Darko was the big one, but he was in like city slickers as a kid and shit like that.

Was he?

He had a bunch of them.

I did not know that.

Donnie Darko.

He's in the Good Girl with Jennifer.

Yeah, I remember that.

Moonlight Mystery saw him because I missed Donny Darko

in its original run.

So 05, he has Proof and Jarhead and Brokeback.

And Heath Ledger.

What a good year for that guy.

Heath Ledger has Lords of Dogtown, Brothers Grimm, and Brokeback.

Yeah, these guys had, these guys,

individually, were having a classic Hollywood year.

During an era.

For an actor, for an actor, for an actor.

But during an era where

10 years later, you're just putting on a cape.

Well, Keith Ledger's agents are like, you got to take the Spider-Man thing, or there's not going to be another one that that comes around 100%.

Like, you just named six movies between three guys.

Those six, like, I mean, first of all, those six movies wouldn't even be happening now.

Yeah, loads of Dog Town.

But just pretend that they weren't.

It's like a stars prestige

episode.

It's a good movie.

It's true.

It is a good

thing.

I love Lords of Dog.

That movie,

it's a wonderful movie.

It's so lived in.

Is it who directed that?

It was a Peralta.

So it was Caesar Peralta.

It's just

that movie really knows what it is, and the people in it know how to be in that movie.

And I think Keith Fledger knew, I want to have, like,

you know, this happens very rarely with actors where they're from early on, like, I want to have my career this way.

And I want to be in weird movies and I want to work with good directors and I want to challenge myself.

And, you know, that's, that's one of the multiple tragedies of losing a dude like that is I don't know what his career would look like over the next, you think like he is broke back and he has dark knight in the span of three years.

Like if you add 15 years to his career,

what else is he doing?

But the movie that I think is the important one is neither Dark Knight nor

Brokeback, which is Casanova.

Oh, wow.

He hated his own performance in Casanova.

Of course he did.

But like, because that's not an actor's performance, right?

Yeah.

That's a movie star performance.

Right.

That's the performance that a person gives because

they want to keep making Brokeback Mountain and they want to keep doing Lords of Dogtown.

And that is how you have a healthy movie star career because, or a healthy acting career, because you're willing and because you can do movie star stuff.

I think he would have done a lot of.

I think he would have done a lot of non-star parts and gone back and forth between leading movies, but then just being like, all right, I'll be the Winklevoss twins and social network.

And I think he's just oh my god, but wow, I think he would have made that.

You're going there.

Now I'm getting, I just couldn't imagine like what the parts would be.

But when you go that route, I'm like, Yeah, I think he would have gone all the way.

He totally could have done Winkle, Winklevoss.

Yeah, I think he would have been like he would have been a Cohen Brothers movie.

He would have been Fincher.

He just would have like banged out

whoever the best directors were.

And I think one of the cool things about this performance, you know, he just has a couple of

just out of control, highest level acting scenes.

Yeah.

Where you're just like, wow.

You know, where, and I think Jillen Hall is great in this movie, but Ledger is like, he's like, Hathaway said at one point, she said, I remember getting to watch the shot of Heath walking across the front yard of the parents, which is really just dust and dirt more than anything.

And Heath had decided that at some point Ennis had been in an accident that had a limp.

It was so subtle and it looked like he'd had this limp for about four years.

And I just remember looking at Heath in that moment and thinking, this is one of the greatest actors that has been just because he made weird out of nowhere choices like that.

But the way other actors talked about him, I think that's when you know.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

When people are crossing through his vortex and they're like, Jesus Christ, this guy was incredible.

Well, just think about,

just think about

the thing that we're kind of taking for granted so much that we're kind of laughing at the blatancy of it.

But just to play the part speaking that way, right?

I remember there being some conversation

when either around the time the movie came out about him not seeming masculine enough to people in the movie industry.

Oh, that was one of the reasons he didn't get the part right away.

They didn't feel like he was so that was true.

I remember that's true.

Yeah, yeah.

And I,

I mean, I mean,

I don't know, is that really a requirement for these purposes?

But sure, fine.

He decides, I mean, I'm sure that conversation got to him, like it reached him in some way.

He heard that people were saying it.

So I don't know what his choice was here, but I'm also sure he saw Silence of the Lands and was like, there is a world in which people hear this voice that I've come up with, and they're like, Buffalo Bill, you know, kill, kill, kill.

But you know what's crazy, though?

That character versus the Joker.

You

wouldn't know it was the same actor.

You wouldn't know.

Well, this is the thing.

I just don't think you would know.

I mean, unless you knew, I were like,

I don't know who that person is playing this part.

I don't know anything about this guy.

Like, he has emptied himself of whatever, I mean, whatever baggage he had in 2005 coming to a movie, which is really none because it had been six years of him, basically.

I don't, all I'm seeing is a character at this point.

I'm not seeing an actor playing anybody.

Yeah.

And I think that is the thing that, that

in part makes the performance so good.

You don't know who the person playing the part is.

Feels like he figures it out even more as it goes along, which might have been the script, but he does some stuff.

Like I think the last half hour of the movie, he's so like when he goes, like when the last time he has the scenes with

Jack Twist, when he breaks down.

When he goes to see the parents, the phone call he has with Ann Hathaway,

all the stuff he's doing in all those scenes.

I just think like, like when he finds the shirt in the closet, you hear like the

life just sinks out of his body.

Like he's just,

it's really great stuff.

It's

like, it's funny because Daniel Day Lewis said this was like his favorite performance and like he loves this movie.

Oh, really?

And he loved Keith Ledger in the movie.

And it's like, that makes sense to me that, because it's like when the basketball players vet the other great basketball players, like this is a movie Daniel Day-Lewis is probably like, I wish I had made a movie like this.

Well, I think that,

well, I mean, Daniel Day-Lewis is with all

he's made a bunch of great, I'm saying he's made some great choices with the choices he made, right?

I think that the surprise of this movie is just how, if you really, you know, diagram the sentence of the performance, so to speak, like there's so many strange things that he's doing here.

And

so much of it is about like staying like this, right?

Just never

moving

beyond

emotion, an emotional radius, a physical radius.

This is a person who, how he uses his energy.

Like even when he's waiting for Jack Twist, when he's driving

the beers, and he's just like, yeah, he's got six beers next to him, and he's

in the apartment.

Yeah, waiting as almost like, what the fuck's going on?

Yes.

Who's this Jack Twist guy?

I mean, we've all been that person, though, right?

But the idea that it's Ennis Del Mar who's suddenly like

wrapped around somebody's finger like that is, it's really, really beautiful and sweet.

The like child, the child likeness, the adolescence of

who Heath Ledger thinks this guy is.

Because on the page,

That's not really, I mean, at least in the short story, that's not quite so clear, right?

He is, he is incorporating these very real world human experiences into this performance that are, that are very much like being 15 years old and waiting for somebody you've got to crush on to acknowledge your existence and you think they mightn't even show up.

You know what made me think?

I think every generation, maybe even every decade, has an actor or an actress.

who's taken too soon and becomes like the what if.

Because like for my generation, it was River Phoenix.

We thought River Phoenix was going to be like

one of our guys, right?

I think I was almost the exact same age with him, but it just felt like he was on the track to be whatever.

And then he died.

100%.

And I think, well, who's your for your generation, Craig?

Do you have one?

Because Heath Rogers older.

Actors?

I don't know.

Or actresses.

I mean, but

no, I don't think like who's dies?

Like John Kazale's like that for the 70s, right?

He does five movies and dies.

Yes, yes.

And then you think it almost becomes like sports where you go man

think all like the ways this could have gone no we don't it's really different now we don't really have i mean we have mac miller kobe bryant or like they're all other places yeah it's more musicians um

and then jylenha who i think's

you know had a really really good meaty career yeah it's gone in a lot of directions he's had I think some really good rewatchable movies.

He's had some stinkers.

He's seems like he's now reinvented himself as this presumed innocent shit.

A carry, a carry, a karaoke artist, basically.

Well, he's basically like in, he's now in this John Ham, like he's going to be on your big Apple TV screen doing some show, and maybe that's where he is now.

But this is actually

25 years away.

Right.

That's an industry condition that he is like, he's riding that wave the best.

He did it the way he did it.

He's a good actor.

But it's interesting that like he is doing Roadhouse and Presumed Innocent, you know, these sort of

iconic parts

for at least Roadhouse.

By the way,

massive hits, right?

Amazon, that was the

massive hit?

Massive hit.

Okay.

And then Presumed Innocent was like one of the only shows that resonated last summer.

I really love Jake Gyllenha.

I am always rooting for him.

I love his choices.

I think that he,

you know, I didn't really finish my point about what's so good about this performance, though, in terms of his studying.

Jake's?

Yes.

And the thing about it is he knows he's playing a rodeo guy.

Right.

Right.

This is a guy who professionally wanted to like catch things for sport and entertainment.

And he is good at catching men.

Right.

Oh.

And I don't like the idea of him like being a stalker.

That's not what this is.

But he wanted something and he lassoed it and he tried to keep it.

He's driving 14 hours back and forth to.

Yeah.

Wherever the he wanted to keep it and it keeps trying to get away and he keeps trying to keep it close.

And Ennis is trying to

get out of the rope.

So the four actors

who I think spent a bunch of time together on the set and like really became like close.

And then Heath Ledger falls in love with Michelle Williams during the movie.

And apparently, like people knew right away, like, oh, this is.

on with these two.

They end up having a kid.

He doesn't work for a year because she's working and he's raising the kids.

So he doesn't, there's has like a year off or so.

But, uh but i think that everybody like joan hall is like was like the godfather of their kid like there there's a lot of like that makes sense i mean like think about what it actually meant to shoot those

those

sheep scenes right i mean at the end of the day sure there's a crew but it's these two guys basically alone in the woods yeah for weeks on end.

So it ends up being one of the big Oscar disgraces of the 21st century.

Can you think of a better one?

Angley wins for director, wins for best score, wins for adapted screenplay.

Crash beats broke back.

We covered crash.

We did a

flawed rewatchables of that one a while ago.

You missed it.

Ledger.

I didn't miss it as a

listener.

And we don't have to litigate how dumb that was.

It was dumb when it happened.

It was fucked up.

And

it shouldn't have lost.

But Hoffman versus Ledger is a really interesting one because Hoffman's great in in Capote.

And I think as the years pass, people are like, oh man, Ledger.

I don't really know the answer to that one, but there's no

bad Oscar for like Hoffman became Truman Capote.

That was fucking incredible.

No.

So I don't really know how I feel about that.

Both performances were great.

I get it.

Well, you know, let's just do some Hollywood math here.

Hoffman deserved one.

Hoffman had been around for longer.

Ledger was 25 years old.

He was 25 years old.

There was a belief that, like, well, he'll be back here 10 more times.

I mean,

why waste it?

Why waste it on?

Why not give Phillip Seymour Hoffman his Oscar now?

And we'll give it, we'll give Heath.

It was brewing for five, six years with Hoffman.

Like, this guy's a fucking awesome actor and culminates in Capodi.

And also, the performance is just very good.

Like, I,

I really, like, watching Brokeback Mountain this time, I was like, this performance is, is

great,

but I also understand, I don't have any objection to what Phillips Jillenhow loses to George Clooney and Siriana.

Not sure what happened there.

I'm going to sit on my hands.

George Clooney and Siriana?

Think about that.

Think about the times that we lived in in 2005.

Like that, first of all.

Craig, have you ever seen Siriana?

No.

Do you even know what Siriana is?

No.

I've heard of it.

I don't know what it's about.

It was that crazy time in our lives when the movies really were, though, about the world we were living in.

It was post-9-11.

Yep.

The Bush stuff had started.

Yeah, and all of a sudden, Searhan is an important movie.

Yeah,

it's not an important movie.

It's a movie that thinks it's important.

It's a movie that thinks it's an important movie.

But I want to, you know, how I feel about

category fraud.

Yeah.

Well, Jill and Hove should have been best at it.

What are we doing here?

Yeah.

What are we doing?

Ledger's in probably two more scenes.

What are we?

Although, I guess Ledger's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie.

But I don't, okay, that is literally true.

I don't feel like this is a grade one category fraud.

Really?

Yeah, because they're trying to get Gyllenhaal and Oscar, right?

You don't want him competing against Heath Ledger, and Ledger is in the movie more than Jake Gyllenhaal.

But it's not screen time that determines listen.

We live in a world where Lecter was best actor.

That's what I'm saying.

It's like, it doesn't, the screen time is not the issue here.

It's the importance of the character.

Put the two guys together.

I get it.

It's like, there's no, it's not only is there no movie without without Jake Gyllenhal, but like Heath Ledger's performance means something else without the, it's the Tom Cruise and Rainman question, right?

Like, I just feel like what Gyllenhaal is doing, and I don't know how these things work.

I'm sure that like somebody in his world had to sign off on him being demoted to this other category in order to like make it easier for them both together.

If I'm Gyllenhaal, I'm like, put me in supporting.

There's no way I'm beating Heath Ledger.

I just hate him.

I just want to

be category fraud.

Well, he's also too good.

It just, I don't know.

Michelle Williams, best supporting actress, loses to Rachel Weiss.

Wait, who else was that year?

Constant Gardner, Amy Adams in Junebug, Catherine Keener and Capote, and uh, Francis McDormand in North County.

We call it a strong year, wasn't a strong movie year.

Was not a 2005 was not a great movie year.

Um,

I

love Rachel Weiss.

She should have have Oscars for maybe four other performances.

People were charmed by her in that movie.

Obviously, of those five performances,

I'm probably going with Michelle Williams.

What's funny is this isn't the most traumatized wife she ever played.

It's not even close.

It's not even close, actually.

That is true.

I'm like.

Somehow marrying Enos Del Mar wasn't as bad as the Manchester by the Sea guy.

Oh, no.

But she's really good at that sort of thing.

I don't think anyone has a better, I'm completely broken, suffering, wide-eyed.

I'm about to start crying, but I'm trying to stay strong.

Face.

She might be the goat.

Well, she always

has this ability to look like, yes, like, like, like,

trying to keep it together.

Yeah.

But,

like,

I, I'm like, I'm this kind of crier where like the crying starts starts before

I can even articulate

why I can't articulate.

Like when you cry later in the podcast?

Possibly.

Okay.

I don't want to.

$14 million budget.

$14 million budget made $179 million.

Everywhere?

Yeah, everywhere.

Yeah.

Roger Ebert.

$14 million budget.

Roger Ebert.

Four stars.

Broke Back Mountain could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie.

It could be a melodrama.

It could be a gay cowboy movie.

But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is observant as work by Bergman.

Strange but true, the more specific a film is, the more universal, because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone.

Yep.

Raj, nailing it.

Raj is on a heater right now.

It's true.

Well, you know, what he also gave four stars to

Siriana.

A crash.

He did.

We did again that.

He was affected.

And also said,

listen, listen, y'all.

The better movie actually did win.

Yeah, I know.

I mean, not great.

Not great.

Let's do the most re-watchable scene.

So it's nothing really in the first 25 minutes, except for that first scene outside the trailer that you're pointing out, like the little cat and mouse game.

But

basically, we're just hanging out as the guys eat beans and get bumped.

The scene,

I gotta throw it in there because it's one of the most famous scenes in the movie.

I want to.

The tent scene?

I'm going to tell a story.

Okay.

Oh.

We watched this movie the other night with my, with my wife and my daughter, who's home from college.

Okay.

She had no idea what this movie is, but she really likes Heath Ledger and Jake Jyllenhall.

Carrie loves this movie.

Carrie, this is one of my wife's like seven or eight favorite movies.

Okay.

And my daughter doesn't know what it's about, but likes the two actors.

Okay.

so we're going and we're going 25 minutes and she's into it and she likes it and looking at the phone every once in a while and they get we get to this scene and

i forget who's behind who but somebody rolls over and and she's like wait why are they cuddling

and carrie starts laughing

and so he goes wait what what's gonna happen what and then the tenth scene happened and she couldn't believe it she had no idea it was coming so that was kind of funny and then

so she's seeing it through the prism of

everyone does it like really we're gonna throw in the the gate like we see amazon netflix all these different streamers they all try to be edgy by having characters going all these different directions so her guard goes up because she's like oh here we go this is this is the way we're going and by the end where did she think it they were trying to where did she think she was going to be taken i just didn't think she didn't know what she was watching she just thought we were watching like a western okay by the end of the Taylor Sheridan show.

Right.

Which, like, hey, hey, Taylor Sheridan, you know what you could use a little bit more of, honestly.

I mean, listen, let's be real.

Let Cole Hauser have it.

Let him go.

Let him off his shit.

Let him explore the studio space.

By the end of the movie, my daughter was like sobbing in tears.

Couldn't believe that.

So

it did its move, man.

This movie's really good.

Anyway,

next scene, Jack and Ennis fight and say goodbye, and Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to be.

That looked like a real punch, and they already broke his hand.

He had a sprained I mean, he gets up and looks at him, he's looking at his hand as he walks away from the punch.

Method acting sometimes can go wrong.

Um, it's a small scene, but Randy Quay telling Jack Twist there's no chance for another job.

Yeah,

you boys

sure found a way to pass the time up there.

Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to lead the dog, baby, the shit and the sheep.

Well, you stem the rose.

Stem the rose.

I've never heard that one before.

When you stem the rose, basically, you are kind of doing this.

Wow.

Randy.

Jack meets Lorene.

Oh, yeah.

Ann Hathaway's character.

Yeah.

She's she's ready to go.

She's

on the go team.

A lot of horses didn't lock it down.

But it's just Aan Hathaway coming in throughout 100.

Jack goes to see Ennis, which we talked about when he gets the postcard.

Yeah.

Comes in.

Alma's like, hey, do you think your friend will want to have a coffee?

No, he's from Texas.

He doesn't drink coffee.

One of the green

runs out to meet him.

And then Alma makes the mistake of opening the door thinking she's going to meet.

Alma makes the mistake.

What is Ennis doing?

Right.

Yeah.

Ennis just lost his mind.

Let's.

It's the biggest picking nit of the movie is what is he doing?

That's the answer.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, like, he didn't even hide behind a corner.

I mean, he just jumps his body.

I am telling you.

I am telling you.

The other

missed them.

There are some real contexts that we have to keep in mind.

This is probably 1963.

Yeah.

This is we're in.

No, now we're in 67.

All right.

Well, we're in the, we're in this, we're in the 60s.

Not exactly a big, like, respect your woman's.

We didn't know we were in 1967 because Angle decided not to play Creedon's Clearwater Revival to let us know we were in 1967.

Yeah, well, we're in a movie trick.

In a real hippie-free zone, so there'd be no conventional markers.

But I mean, I think the thing that is so devastating about this movie that's ancillary to the love story is just the sexist, misogynist, chauvinist world

these guys

are living in and in their way maintaining, right?

Yeah.

These are two people who are ultimately kind of shitty to women.

And

I have a whole category for this later.

And I think the power of that scene is, I mean, you understand what's happening here immediately because Ledger has sold you.

Alma sure understands.

She's like,

but it's, there are two times when we see, the thing that's shocking about that scene to me is there are two times in the movie where we are, we're outside the relationship and we're seeing what somebody else sees.

And it's almost as if that, like, that movie trick of

translation where like these people, these two characters, these all these characters are speaking one language and we're hearing it as English.

And then there's like some cut to

somebody else who doesn't speak that language and we're hearing gibberish, right?

It's like the Randy Quaid sneer when he's got the binoculars and he's just like, yes, the two times we're seeing it, we're seeing it through a window and through binoculars.

And through a tire iron flashback.

Right.

But that's sort of different, right?

Because we don't know whose perspective that is.

Yeah.

But

the, the,

you just totally understand the immediacy of it.

And these two actors are selling.

We don't give a fuck who sees this.

He like comes to his senses.

It's the one time in the movie that Jack loses, that that ennis loses control that in a way well i mean this also is violent i mean ennis only loses control

his only mode of expression is is violence his only emotional mode is is either somebody or them up i think when your friend comes out of nowhere to visit and you just tell your wife hey we're gonna go get some drinks Not sure I'm gonna be back tonight.

Like, what is that?

You know what it was?

It was the 1960s.

That's what I'm saying.

You just tell your wife.

That's what I'm saying.

I don't don't know if I'm going to be back tonight.

I don't know if I'm going to be back.

Craig, you should try that over the weekend.

Miss, somebody's in town.

I don't know if I'm coming back tonight.

I think he even says, like, I might be back in a couple days.

Right, right.

Right.

Well, I mean, in the news

era, I don't remember if this happened.

I don't think this happens in the movie, but in the story, Jack is like, just tell her you'll be back in a few days.

I do it all the time, basically.

Do you think we could have like one of the 50 states just operates

like with social rules for the 60s where men are just like i'll be back i think i'm sorry

we live in that country right now

states are are this imaginary state you're talking about we send

1955 all day long alma's i think my husband's passionately making out with his friend jack twist face is in the pantheon of of faces in the movie what an expression

oh my lord what an expression the campfire combo another rewatchable scene of whether they could end up together when ennis tells the flashback tire iron story and it basically sets the stakes like this isn't just about forbidden love like we could get killed here yes so important

um i like the double dysfunctional thanksgiving with lorene's asshole dad turning the tv in that little battle and then uh we have jack twist and alma and she's like you know i kept those

those tags on that fishing pole and i wrote a little note and you never caught any fish.

And

man, it got,

which was the more dysfunctional Thanksgiving?

Probably that one.

Well, because you don't expect, I mean, the thing about Ennis is he is so,

everything is so tamped down.

And he thinks that he's got control over the whole narrative.

Yeah.

And she knows the whole time.

And she knows the whole time.

And the idea that the real thing for him that is so upsetting is that he wasn't getting away with anything, right?

He thought he was getting away with this thing, and she had no idea.

You didn't go up there to fish.

You don't know nothing about her.

I'm gonna yell for Mara.

He thinks she's stupid and can't figure it out.

Yeah.

And she's known the whole time.

She's underestimated.

So he threatens to kill her, basically.

Jack's,

this is one of my favorite scenes.

The double date with Jack and the guy from Stranger Things and their wife and Anna a Paris.

And they're out in the back, and he's like, Yeah, I'd love to go fishing.

We ought to go down there some weekend.

Got a cabin.

Got a cabin.

And they kind of had that moment.

It's been a running joke with me and my wife for 20 years because, you know, when you're in LA, you meet parent friends.

There's a couple.

There's been a couple of times where

she was like, what'd you think of so-and-so?

And I was like, I don't know.

He kind of gave me a, I got a cabin.

We could go up there for a weekend, vibe.

Bill, your job is to get me the phone number.

What are you doing?

I mean, I'm in a relationship now, and I hope to be for the rest of my life, but you need to be getting me some phone numbers with this happy.

We ought to go down there some weekend.

You've been holding out on me all the time.

That scene's hilarious.

Oh, my God.

The big scene.

I think this is the best scene in the movie.

The boys hanging out.

It's the I

wish I could quit you.

Why don't you?

But it's actually, that scene is so much better than what became kind of the meme of that scene.

I wish I could quit you.

You know, it ends with Heath Letcher has like a breakdown.

He's like, it's because of this, I'm like, I'm like this.

I'm nowhere.

I'm nothing.

It's just, you're just like, oh my God.

Why don't you just let me be, huh?

Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this.

Nothing.

I'm

Yeah, but I mean, poor you.

Like, this guy is offering you an opportunity to get away from all this stuff in your sin.

Being a ranch, turning it down.

Being in Mexico, it's great.

I mean, but you also understand it.

Like, this is a person who doesn't believe in happiness.

Right.

Like, he doesn't believe in it.

He doesn't believe it's possible.

And it's so true, I think, having met

people from that zone of the country.

So you're thinking this is like late 70s at this point.

So it's still pretty realistic that it seems inconceivable.

Yes.

You could

actually, yeah, let's do this together.

It's just not

inconceivable.

We're from like in Wyoming, in any

part of that corridor, insane.

But I think that the tragedy, the great thing about that, there's a few great things about that scene.

One is the way Heath Ledger is turned from the camera and Jake Gyllenha's assignment assignment there is to try to like, I don't know if his assignment is to get him to like show us when he comes back.

Yeah, yeah.

His crumpled face to show us.

But Jake does.

And this is good stuff from that scene, too.

Like when he sees how broken Ennis is, and you just see like the lifeguard.

Now he's like, oh man, I pushed that.

Because this is the first time he stood up to him.

Yeah.

Declared everything, right?

I mean, they've been lying to each other a little bit.

Like, there's, I don't believe there's any girl that Jake Gyllenhaal has been running around.

Oh, I thought that was the the guy i thought that was the kebab guy i think he's saying it's a girl but i think it was the cabbage girl it was david harbor yeah um which i totally get um

what are we doing like if david harbor or david harbor playing a guy in a cowboy hat sits down to you on a bench and says yo i got a cabin why don't we go to it

what are you gonna do i'd be like it's week five of the nfl you would be like carry like carry

pats i played miami

I can't go.

I can't.

I can't do this.

I've got kids.

But I mean, that's such a great moment also, because, and we can, I don't know when we talk about this, but like the other power of this movie is that it is, it is expressing homosexuality in zones in which American popular culture never even thinks to look.

Well, especially in 2005.

Now I think it's more commonplace, right?

Yeah, but in 2005, that was part of the power of it.

Even now, right?

I mean, even now, this is like watching this movie, it still feels like there is some seal that is still not entirely broken on

like who gets to be gay, who gets to like declare themselves as gay.

I did think like, I didn't put this in the...

in the rundown, but I did think this movie would be way more polarizing in 2025 over some of of the

ways it's discussed, though gay, bisexual, straight, all like, I just feel like it would be like how we term, like

use all the terminology.

I just feel like there would have been some quagmire we entered versus,

or somebody gives a quote during the junk it and they don't like how they said the quote.

Sure.

And that becomes a terrible thing.

That's fair.

I mean, even the things that they were saying at the time of the movie's making

probably would have gotten somebody in trouble.

But

I don't know.

That's a great, great, that's an interesting thing to think about too, is like how this movie lands if nothing changes in 2025.

We could have had a good laugh together.

Fucking real good laugh.

Had a place of our own.

That guy's making some good points.

Jack calls Lorene.

It's a really good Ann Hathaway scene.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you guys, what I, and there's some good research on this that I'll get to later, but I love how ambiguous it is.

Yes.

It's like, yes.

Does she know who this is?

There's a lot of ambiguity.

Does she know how Jack died?

Yes.

What does she want this person to know?

It's just really.

And then

Ennis finds the shirt,

sees the parents.

Incredible job by those broken parents.

That seems like a fun house.

I like when she's like, y'all, come back whenever.

It's like, yeah, that sounds great.

How about two weeks from now?

We can get together and have some more good times.

Yeah.

To for Ennis Del Mar to find something truly unpleasant enough to never return to it is really is really saying a lot come back and see us again um

and then when the when the guy talks about the dad talks about how jack was talking about first it was this ennis del mar who come up here and then he got this new guy who's getting a divorce and he was going to come up here and it's harbor wait what uh what's the most re-watchable scene for you

Oh, the opening.

Opening scene.

Okay.

Because you always want to evaluate to like, I mean, I've seen the opening a bunch of times.

We're watching it in the context of the whole movie.

It's just, you're watching, you're watching a little modern dance between these two, between these two men, and it's really, it's really quite good.

We'll take another break and then rest of the categories.

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All right.

What's the most 2005 thing about this movie, Wesley?

Is it how young all the soon-to-be way more famous actors are, or is it that it was considered as controversial as it was in 2005 when you watch it again?

Definitely how young everybody is.

And that

you couldn't make this movie now, even if somebody were trying to make it.

Who would you make it with?

Like,

it had to be these four people.

I was going to ask Craig for a recasting couch.

Who is Ennis and Jack Twist?

I feel like there is a group of actors now who are...

challenging themselves in these ways by playing characters like this, like Paul Meskell and Adam Scott and Josh O'Connor.

I don't.

I thought Paul Meskill was one of the roles.

Yeah, I agree with you.

Paul Mesco, I could see in one of the roles here.

Well, oh, sure.

I think Josh O'Connor and Paul Meskell are about to be in a movie about a gay romance, I think.

Yeah, but it's a New Hampshire, totally different thing.

Yeah, yeah.

But yes.

The Western is different because there's a physicality with it that like, I think, just rules out like Tom Holland.

Mike Feist.

Mike Feist.

I mean, we're recasting Couch.

Are we, should we be doing it now?

No, I'm just thinking how unique this time with the actors was.

And there's another very obvious person who I had in my brain.

You're right.

They need a physicality.

It can't be Chalamet.

Right.

No, no, no, no.

But that's obviously the person that they're going to be.

It could be Chalamay and the Sasha Baron Cohen, like gaining 50 pounds of muscle.

Do you see that?

Jesse Plemons.

Jesse Plemens.

He's too old now, though.

Maybe, but like Jesse Plemons is the sort of person.

Oh, who's that guy?

Will Will Powder?

Will Pouter?

Will Poulter?

I feel like they would do it now and it would be like, and Sabrina Carpenter as Ama.

Yes.

I mean, probably, yes.

Actually, she might not be bad.

She probably would not be bad, honestly.

What's age the best?

Do you think it's something Gosling could have done 10 years ago?

100%.

Yes.

I agree with that.

But I mean,

I just want this because when you think about who else could have played these parts in the actual real time, I'm like, you got to be kidding me.

Funniest casting, Danny McBride as Ennis.

And Shane Gillis as Jack.

Now, wait a minute.

Now, wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

You're in on this?

Let's take this seriously for a second.

You're out here jerking off on the beans.

Let's do Danny McBride stuff.

I'm actually serious about this.

Because the one, the one, I mean, I'll pick my knit later.

We'll come back.

All right, we'll come back.

What's age the best?

The score is incredible in a Windsy Oscar.

It's just great.

It's perfect.

It is perfect.

And just like one of the last movie scores that isn't in a Christopher Nolan movie, where the movie is sort of

that music, you hear it and you're automatic.

Your heart just starts to swell.

You calling out the GOAT John Williams, telling him he's not been working hard enough the last time.

I'm just like.

Step it up, John.

I know you're 93, but come up with some fucking shit again.

Just say it.

Well,

you're tripping John Williams off is what I'm saying.

You've done the work, sir.

You've done the work.

What's age the best?

A character saying the title in the in the movie in a scene

all we got here is broke back mountain it's like great you said the title uh

this isn't a western but it's a western adjacent which almost needs like its own name but i like being outdoors with a lot of animals and

you know just like western-ish just how kind of the the quietness and Like the first 20 minutes of No Country for Old Men is like this when Josh Bolin goes out to see the murder and just big vast nothing and just quiet and there's an eeriness and a creepiness with it.

I love things set in the middle of the country in the southwest where none of the conventional Hollywood things

happen in that iconography.

You never know it's going to go.

Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams falling in love during the filming.

Now their daughter is, I think, like six months younger than mine.

Oh, wow.

Matilda, who'd like very low low profile on her.

Okay.

Jack Twist as a character, we mentioned it before, but the dreamer, when the dad says at the end,

like, oh, Jack's ideas, it never came to pass.

I just, I like, I like that these characters are just losers in like not like the I don't think we have enough like loser characters anymore because now they would just be like some incel in front of a computer or something.

But we don't have like just down on their luck guys, it's never going to work out.

And it's guess what?

He's going to pay child support.

His life's going to suck.

He's going to go to this bar and drink.

And that's probably, he's going to live in this trailer.

That's it.

That's where it's going to end.

The last shot of the movie

is one of the most devastating shots for, I mean, it's up there.

I think Magnificent Obsession, the Douglas Cirque movie, the last shot of that movie is doing a similar thing, which is like really

setting up the hero or heroine in the case of the Douglas Cirqu movie, like it's a tragedy.

And how do we know it's a tragedy?

Yeah, because they're going to be alone, and here's what they're alone with.

This particular memory, I think the Cirque movie is ultimately more devastating somehow because it's a TV instead of a shirt.

That's a great Shotgordo candidate with the shirt with the OB road and then the road in the background that's kind of similar.

Just ingenious framing and storytelling.

Dangly, good at stuff.

I'm just going to say this for what Sage sage the best: sneaky hot cast that doesn't get mentioned in the hot actress cast arguments that I like to have never.

Um,

but Michelle Williams, yeah, because I'm old, Michelle Williams, Ann Hathaway, Kate Merritt, and Linda Cartellini.

You left Anna Ferris,

Anna Ferris for a scene, yeah, right, like who's also wonderful.

Angle, great job by you, yeah.

Um,

I like this exchange.

What do you do, Ennis Del Mar?

Earlier today, I was castrating cows.

Yeah.

What other, what other, what stage the best do you have?

Because we've mentioned a lot.

Hold on.

I think for me, it's the score is the eternal one.

Oh, yeah.

The score is the thing that will last forever.

And the Heath Ledger piece of it.

Did you have another one?

Give me your scribble.

No, I mean, I've just got a lot of notes here.

Big Kahuna Burger Word for best use of food and drink.

Probably when they cook, what do they make?

Like elk or venison?

It's it's an elk.

Yeah, elk.

I like that or just a lot of the beans.

I mean, how did they, they did a lot of jerky.

They were doing, I mean, they're, I mean, they know what they're doing with a, with a giant wild animal.

Actually, made me a little hungry, Craig.

Yeah, when you're making the elk.

That sequence?

Going from beans to that.

I mean, as a bean.

You're shitting for days after that.

That's a real RFK question.

Why are we hating on beans?

I mean, I'm just like, I'm saying beans every day.

Like at some point.

But at some point,

you know what's great about beans every day you stop farting like eating them every day how do you

eat beans every day for two i eat beans all the time i'm a soaker and a and a boiler i love the beans we don't get to give this category up very much

and i'm really excited about it yeah it's the sean penn i brought my own pack award for excellence in on-screen smoking

So it's a scale of one

to Robert De Niro and Goodfellas, which is a 10.

And he's the only one who could be a 10 because nobody's better than him in that movie when he does the Maury cigarette.

Oh, yeah.

He stares down Maury.

That is one of the, you know, because smoking is a big, as a non-smoker, but like as a person who's lived with smokers most of his life, most of his childhood,

I'm really, you got to convince me you know what you're doing with a cigarette.

And CR made the point when we redid Goodwill Hunting.

Cole Hauser walks into the bar, finishes a SIG, grabs a beer, grabs car keys, puts the SIG out all in one motion that's probably like a nine seven that's that's very i think ledger's like a like a legitimate nine five was he a smoker i don't know if he was a smoker or not but i believed it i'd actually i believe it he uh i think he said he had smoked weed since he was like seven years old every day so he clearly was comfortable smoking yeah yeah i mean there's just a comfort there's a facility with the with the with the instrument there that it just seems like he had a lot of butts on the set and then

jake

I think it was like a seven, five, eight range.

I was really convinced with his smoking as well.

I just culminating in a double smoking post-Coeta scene.

Oh, yeah, they're both fucking banging out scenes.

And it's like, you guys are, this is not watching Tom Cruise trying to work his way through a barbara red.

No, no,

just some of the worst, one of the worst smokers for Keanu Reeves and Hardball, Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise.

Um, really, most people are just not convincing smokers.

Like, most people are not.

Just study actors.

Just study De Niro.

De Niro should be like when quarterbacks study the mechanics of

Joe Montana.

But most people who smoke in movies aren't that character.

And the reason that smoking was so good was that's the only way that guy knows how to smoke.

Right?

Right.

Like it just makes, it just is perfect.

It's perfect.

The Great Shot Gordon Award, most cinematic shot.

We already mentioned that one at the end.

I also wanted to volunteer um

when ennis beats the two guys up on fourth of july and has that wide shot of the fireworks going up behind them and his wife's like what the is yeah it's just like really well framed nice job by them there's a lot of choices in this movie

i mean all those close-ups of the two of them are really

i just remember them yeah and i like seeing them in this movie watching having watched it pretty really recently they just seem so familiar to me like i've been looking at them my entire life kid cutty pursued of Happiness award, best needle drop.

Sweet Melissa by Ullman Brothers.

I'll go with that.

Or the ending when he says, Jack, I swear.

And then the score like kicks in with a hard guitar.

Good stuff.

Chess Rockwell, Brock Landers award for best character name.

So

you'd want to say Jack Twist here.

Don't you?

Can I make a case for Lorene?

The fuck is that name?

Listen, you're about to get a lot of Lorenz in your inbox.

No, I'm saying if you're Lorene, Lorene is

in three states in the country.

Lorenz are coming for you: Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Nebraska.

It's a flavor of name.

Lurlene is a name I'm familiar with.

I'm just saying that is a specific region of the country, Lorene.

Yes, but Jack Twist is your winner here.

Come on, Jack Twist, pretty good.

Alma Jr., though, let's let's just sit with this for a second.

I had that in picking nits.

Jack, oh,

well, just like who names their daughter, Alma Jr.

in 1967.

Listen, I mean, are we did you not hear what i said about misogyny chauvinism and sexism running wild in the in during

20 ajay listen um there's not i don't know the answer is no butch's girlfriend a word for week link of the film craig mentioned a big one that they would be that open but i think you could make a case they both lost their minds jack and and uh ennis when they see each other after four years and they're just making out in the driveway I don't, I, Craig,

I would think that you might be like a

whole life hiding it.

Don't you think that you, you, but it's, but it's, you've also gotten a really massive dose of a thing that you didn't even know you wanted.

And it's been four years since you had it, and it's coming over right now.

That's how I feel about Drake May this season.

I can't hide it.

I can't hide my love for that guy.

The Patriots might be good again.

I think the thing that's so great about that scene is it's, it's, he just, it's, it's, it's the first time in his life

that he's lost control in, in public like that, right?

The other time, you know, there's a case.

Yeah.

So I'm going to go,

I understand it.

I understand.

Can I go with this instead?

Jack Twist just driving 14 hours back and forth three, four times a year to go fishing with his buddy and his wife's time.

Like, huh?

That marriage.

14 hours is like.

I think she was like, huh.

Right.

I think she was.

I think that marriage is basically dead anyway.

On the phone at the end, you can feel that Lorene knows what's going on.

Yeah.

Jack says that to Ennis at one point, too.

I agree.

I think that there's something.

She,

there's no way.

I'm sure that the wife, I'm sure Anna Ferris and Anne Hathaway,

those characters had conversations because Anne Hathaway, Anna Ferris is married to David Harbor, right, in this movie.

He's got a cabin.

And so the cabin is probably a topic of real conversation.

Like, what happens in that cabin?

I had this later in unanswerable questions, but he's driving 14 hours both ways, like three times a year.

What's the furthest at the horniest point in your life you would have driven for sex regularly?

It's 14 hours.

I just want to point out in the AM radio days with shittier cars and no podcasts, that's like a, that's a long time.

It's a 28 hour round trip.

That's like if you just decided, if Craig's like, tomorrow, I'm just going to drive to, I don't know, Texas.

you're probably stopping to sleep as well it's like a real two-day trip I mean that is a that is a real commitment I want to point you to a song

called I Drove All Night

by Cindy Lauper oh yeah and then Celine Dion

that's how Celine is somebody makes a good song and

I mean I had to escape The city was sticky and cruel.

Okay.

I mean 14 hours.

That's some good sex.

I mean, listen, I've done it.

Not 14 hours.

I have run.

I have run.

I have run across Boston.

I will not name this person, but I have run from Cambridge.

I ran from Cambridge to Back Bay.

Okay.

I feel like Charlize Therapy.

Wow, Cambridge.

I ran down Mass Act.

That's over an hour.

That's not that far.

Like when you're running, that's like a 20-minute run.

I did it, though.

It depends what part of Cambridge and what part of Back Bay.

Listen, when you,

I don't, when it's

love,

like deep attraction, you ran excitement.

I fucking

take the fucking tea or something.

Are you kidding?

This was like 11 o'clock at night.

Do you know how long I've been waiting?

I'd be waiting for like the, the, the red line to come and take me.

Yeah.

Also, I'd have to transfer.

Sounds so to get off at Park Station to go get on the green line.

That's again.

That's insane.

Just go to MSF.

What stage the worst?

Okay.

Kate Mare and Heath Ledger were four years apart in real life during this movie.

That's fucking weird at the end.

It looks like she's like the new girlfriend.

It's like, no, no, it's his daughter.

They didn't age him.

They didn't age him enough.

I don't feel like.

He was only 39.

Yeah.

They were only those when Jack dies, he's 39 years old.

So he's not even giving him like some bad facial hair or something.

Right.

And so they're like, he's 20 when he has her, probably like 19 or 20.

All right.

I can't wait to do this part with you.

Uh-oh.

Where does Ennis Ennis rank in the worst movie husbands ever rankings?

I have some choices.

I don't think he's in the top 10.

You don't think he's in the top 10?

Because I made this list.

Well, because he doesn't do anything violent.

Well, go on.

Let me, let's just figure it out.

If we're going from scale one to 10, okay.

Sleeping with the enemy guy.

Ugh.

Laura!

I mean, that guy, you had to like change your identity and end up in the middle of nowhere and he still found you.

That guy's in a tier of his own

ocd he's like rearranging the cans are we ranking these i'm just i'm giving you some out there this is this is going to be hard to beat patrick bergen in that movie oh we're going to beat him really

ike turner and what's love got to do with it jesus christ fine phantom thread guy

oh no yeah she's poisoning him huh she's poisoning him he was a fucking psycho that's what he needed to be poisoned sure he needed to be poisoned

interesting he's those different.

I got some more.

That's a different tier.

Carlo Rizzi and the Godfather.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Get in the kitchen, you giddy bitch.

He got his, though.

He got his.

Oh, fuck all you.

All right.

Ennis is starting to look pretty good, honestly.

Yeah, he beats up his wife multiple times, but also sets Sonny up to be shot 175 times at the toll booth.

So fuck that guy.

Amityville horror guy, underrated, about to kill his whole family with an axe.

Oh shit.

James Brolin, putting him in.

He was possessed.

Jeff Daniels in terms of endearment.

Wait, what a fucking piece of shit he was.

He's in the Ennis Del Mar class of right.

I'm just giving you choice.

That's a different tier.

Flap.

His name was Flap.

There's a Flap.

We haven't done Terms of Endearment yet.

I can't wait to kill Flap.

Ring my phone.

That's another one of the seven movies my wife watches.

I mean, it's a perfect movie.

Get over here and say goodbye to your mama.

Give my daughter the shot.

Daniel Plainview for

worst husband.

I guess he's more of a worst dad, but I just wanted to float him out.

We're just going worst.

Wow, you really are just going worse.

I don't think you've necessarily accounts.

Close encounters guy, Roy Neary.

We just did this movie.

He just abandons his entire family.

Yeah, that is the only

thing.

Listen, that is your winner.

We're not done yet.

Wait, we're not done?

No, because I have this as the Mount Rushmore.

The dad from home alone fucking loses his kid.

Fuck that guy.

Where's Kevin?

He's not here.

Oh, John Hurd.

Jack Torrance and the Shining.

Oh, man.

What am I doing?

I got to leave.

He tries to kill everyone in his family.

I'm going to sit here and chases his kid in a frozen mass.

That's your winner.

It's not even close.

I got two more.

What?

De Niro in this boy's life.

Oh, God.

Poor Ellen Barkin.

Okay, go on.

What was that guy's name?

I don't remember.

Come with the Daryl?

Probably.

I mean, that movie ends with them escaping

the house and him going, you'll remember me.

You'll remember me.

And then I think our winner, the great Santandy.

All right.

Wow.

Deval wins the Oscar for how horrible of a husband and father he was.

The whole movie is about him being a fucking nightmare and psychologically destroying his kids.

All right.

So, yeah, Ennis is starting to look pretty good.

Ennis is like a three out of 10.

Yeah.

He's fine.

He's just a shitty husband.

I mean, if we're doing it the Richter scale way, sure, he's a three out of 10.

Yeah.

Great.

Great.

He's a three.

Did you have an answer for the Ruffalo Hannah Rubeneck Partridge Overacting Award?

I felt like the acting was really good in this.

No, I don't have anybody for that.

Okay.

Well, you have a flex category.

It's the first time since we've had the new format that you've had to do a flex category.

What did you have?

Could this movie, which I think does not need much improvement,

be improved

if one of the characters had a dog?

Oh, Ennis could have absolutely had a dog.

Ennis, I mean, this is the thing that's going to start,

Bill, because

we have this as a category.

Should this character have had a dog?

I swear to God, I read that on the list you sent me.

The Anastel Mara word?

Oh, should you name it?

Should you make it a category?

Yeah,

we'll name this the Anisto Mara word.

I just feel like.

What kind of dog?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Probably like a lab.

You're the one who's a dog.

Probably a dog that swims a little bit.

I just feel like this is a guy who is so lonely.

Yeah.

And so estranged from himself.

And the only connection that he has, like, that is meaningful to him has to drive 14 hours to get to him.

Yeah.

And

I just really feel like that guy's life would have been so much better because he had horses.

Kate Mara's character was like, I'm right here.

She puts her to a boggle.

He almost doesn't even want to go to her wedding.

Right.

He has to sit there and it has to occur to him.

You know what?

Jack would probably tell me to go to this wedding.

Dang, I'm going to go to the wedding.

I think a dog really would have helped.

I really think a dog would have helped.

Probably maybe like a bloodhound.

Aren't they?

What are they like?

I only know them from cartoons.

Just they're kind of sad.

It's like a dog that would be sad.

Annes couldn't have a happy dog.

That's true.

It'd be like a hang dog.

They need to be like a field dog, though.

Like a herd.

That's what I'm like a rainbow.

Like a border collie?

Border collie, yeah.

Oh, yeah, border collie.

Okay.

I can see.

So we do.

Wesley's right.

This is already an award.

It's a Cliff Booth award.

Is this movie better if the main character had a pet?

Wow.

I'm really going to see now.

But I think that's a Cliff Booth.

Now I have to add Ennis to it.

Add Ennis.

Cliff Booth Ennis Delmart Award.

All right.

We have so many categories there.

I forgot.

All right.

The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award.

Do you have a hottest take for this movie?

I have one.

I can carry this if you don't have one.

I don't have one.

Okay.

I have one.

Again, hottest take.

I think you could make a case.

Heath Ledger had two of the best six or seven acting performances by a male in the the 21st century.

Six or seven?

I think you make the case.

That's why this is the hottest take.

Go on, make the case.

Dark Knight broke back.

I think if you're doing this list backwards and you're like, all right, I'm making my list of the 12 best actor performances in the 21st century and you just work backwards from it.

Okay.

Him and the Joker and Daniel Day-Lewis and There Will Be Blood are just automatic.

They're one seeds.

They don't even play anybody in round one.

They just advance to round two.

Great.

and then it like I like.

Here are just some I wrote down.

I probably didn't get all of them: Ledger and broke back,

both guys in the master,

Casey Afuk and Manchester by the Sea.

Say this again: What is what are we what are we doing here?

Best male acting performances of the 21st century.

Okay, okay, okay.

I thought this was limited to Heath Ledger.

Okay, got it, go

Denzel in Training Day, Mahirsh Lali in Moonlight,

Javier Bardam, and I probably mangled that in No Country Froadman.

Leo and Wilfrid Wall Street are the revenue.

Pick one.

DDL and Phantom Thread.

JK Simmons and Whiplash.

Sure.

No argument.

And my hot one for this is Daniel Kalua and Get Out.

I think he's fucking incredible in that movie.

He's fantastic.

He's great.

But I'm sure there's like you could put 20 more in there.

But the point is, I'm sorry.

Benjamin definitely has one.

Yes.

And I think you can make a case for bro, for I'd say two.

That's fine.

I can win.

Okay.

I mean, but you know, I'm working on all those people one or were nominated for Academy Awards, every single one of those performances.

Yeah.

I am doing a thing.

I am compiling the 100.

I'm going to do the 100 performances

of me ever never nominated for Oscars.

Oh, did I tell you about this?

No.

Yeah.

Podcast or written?

I'm going to write it.

That sounds great.

But I

so there's a bunch by some of these people who just they didn't get anything.

Did Stephen Seagal make it or no?

I'm still compiling the list.

So you have two cents.

Your two cents, your four cents are welcome.

Are you the 21st century or all time?

No, since 1951, which was in

On the Waterfront.

So, sorry, which is when Street Card Named Desire came out.

I'm 75 years since Streetcar.

Casting what ifs,

there's this whole section in the late 90s when people are trying to make this movie.

And you won't be surprised to hear that Gus Van Sant was involved.

Oh, boy.

And wanted to make it with Matt Damon as Ennis.

Oh, no.

And Damon, this is an actual quote because he kind of regrets not doing the movie, but also couldn't do the movie.

He told Gus, Gus, I did a gay movie.

Talented Mr.

Ripley.

Then a cowboy movie, All the Pretty Horses.

I can't follow it up with a gay cowboy movie.

You can give press conferences all day long.

You love Bat Damon quotes.

He's the best.

They looked at Josh Hartnett, Joaquin Phoenix, allegedly, who although he says, like, nobody ever asked me, I would have done this movie in five seconds.

Joaquin Phoenix says that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Van Sant went to make on milk instead.

Movie dies for a couple years.

And McMurtry, one of the screenwriters, says, Gus couldn't get Ennis cast.

That's what slowed it.

Actors' representatives were dissuading them from doing the part.

They called it career suicide for a straight actor to play a gay person.

Larry McMurtry said this?

Yeah.

And then,

ironically, your guy Joel Schumacher was attached at one point

with Ed Norton.

Woo!

I knew it.

This just screams.

It's screaming out for the most tasteless director we had for so long to give it the tasteless treatment instead of making a beautiful work of art the way our way our friend Ang Lee did.

So it bounced around.

So Joel Schumacher and who?

Ed Norton.

So it would have been Ed Norton and Colin Farrell.

Edward Norton, my bad.

Sorry.

He does like to be called Ed Norton.

So Joel Schumacher, if Edward Norton and Joel Schumacher hook up to do this, Colin Farrell is definitely playing something in 2005, for sure.

Ed Norton and Colin Farrell.

Yep.

That's I mean if it's Joel Schumacher doing the call in the or McConaughey McConaughey's in there somewhere.

Angley met with Mark Walberg for a role.

Waltberg declined because he was creeped out by the script.

Tough day for Boston.

I mean,

we have all been on a journey with this man.

Listen, I'm just hoping he's in a good place in 2025.

Talk about a man who

is carrying around a lot of shit.

Yeah.

And I hope he has worked it out because he just sold his house to Paris Hilton.

Said a yes or no for working it out.

He's been telling on himself for years.

I'm just, wow.

Okay, great.

Ledger from the beginning wanted to portray Ennis and not Jack.

But that character that makes sense.

That makes sense.

And then Lee and Gyllenhaal, they didn't say what actors were the other ones, but there were some people who were just like, I'm not doing that.

Hathaway got the script they wanted to read for Alma,

and she read it and she's like, I'm Lorene.

I want to be Lorene.

I wonder why.

I don't know.

It's interesting because she,

I don't, she's such an interesting person to me because,

I mean, I'm a really big Ann Hathaway lover under

almost all circumstances.

We've both had stock on Hathaway Island for a long time.

And I don't even know.

I had Jacondo there since 2005.

I don't even love Rachel Getting Married.

I know.

I think the star of that movie is Rosemarie DeWitt.

Yeah.

She's an untamed with Eric Bona.

Oh,

oh, oh, I love her.

They're carrying a secret.

And there's a murder.

It's eight episodes.

Got to find out what's going to happen.

Am I going going to watch this?

Listen, it's if people think AI is coming, I think the counter argument would be AI is already here.

Oh, I'm already convinced.

And they're like, Yellowstone Park, murder, dead kid.

Don't go here.

This is not what we came to do.

But listen, if AI can bring the movies back, then I'm all for it.

Because if AI,

people are already.

I've said this to Craig.

If AI can give us another round of Seagal and Van Damme and Stallone, if we can just run that back.

No.

That's not what I want AI to do.

I just make the make stuff that I like to watch.

I just, all right, just use it as a little, little, little, um, yeast, little starter.

Guess what?

They've been using it all decade.

Nobody wants to say it.

I'm not surprised.

Best that guy, David Harbour.

He's got to win, right?

Because he wasn't David Harbor until Stranger.

He was, he was, he was a full-fledged that guy for 100 years.

And I saw him when I saw this movie in 2005, I was like,

who is that?

You know him as David Harbor now, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you like a new setup where I can just turn to you?

It's nice.

I'm not sure.

I really love it, honestly.

It's great.

Deion Waiter's award.

We got Randy Quaid.

Wow, you guys stem the rose.

Got

Anna Ferris.

Anna Ferris for a scene.

Ann Hathaway's dad.

Oh.

Really bringing it?

Yeah.

Who is that actor?

Do we even know?

I don't know.

I don't know who that actor is.

The cabin guy named Randall, Download Randall.

He's got a cabin.

And then

it's David Harbor, right?

David Harbor.

And then Linda Cartellini.

Oh, yeah.

I think she's really good in this.

By the way, I've always liked her.

She's, what's not the like?

Yeah,

she brings everything she's got to most of the performances that she's assigned to give.

I'm a big fan of hers.

She is like two good parts short, it felt like, over over that stretch.

She should have gotten an Oscar nomination.

I wonder if Market corrected her.

What?

What she had gotten an Oscar nomination?

Green Book.

She's really good in that movie.

I hate Green Book.

I think it's one of the worst movies made in the last 50 years.

We were going to argue about that at dinner tonight with my wife because my wife likes Green Books.

Listen, some of my best friends like Green Book, Bill.

I saw it for the first time.

When?

Maybe five weeks ago.

What?

Yeah.

I lied when that came out.

I pretended I watched it and I didn't.

I just did.

Bill Simmons, what?

Yeah.

You pretended to see Green Book?

I was like, yeah, I saw it.

I was fine.

I never saw it.

Oh, my God.

So now what's the truth?

The movie just ends.

Marshall Artley shows up for dinner at the end.

One of the most depressing scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

And they're like, he has nothing else to do in the holiday.

And they welcome him in.

It's like, Whoa, this scene's going to be really good.

The whole movie's been building for this.

And then it's like, Closing credits,

they've been friends for their whole lives.

I know, that, that, and it's like, Wait, what?

I have to say, though, that was the ending.

I just want to be clear about one thing.

I want to, I'm not done with this.

Okay, I want to be clear.

I loathe this movie.

I,

to this day, am getting letters from people

who are mad at me.

I remember your initial stance, who are mad at me because I am really not.

I actually think I did see it in 2018.

I just forgot it.

Stands to reason.

Although I don't know how you could forget.

I must have seen it.

I'm joking about lying.

I do think I did see it.

I probably was just drinking wine and forgot it.

I don't know what's happening right now.

Listen,

the last scene of this terrible movie is actually quite good.

Yeah.

Because it's the most depressing thing to happen to a black man in a movie in about 35 years.

But,

and I'm really, I really mean that, I think, but Mahershala Ali shows up at their house, their apartment.

The racist he's been spending all this time with being driven around the deep south where more racism happens.

Yeah.

And the Viggo Mortensen character is likable because he's not KKK racist.

Yeah.

He's just a stupid Italian racist.

He doesn't know any better race.

Right.

Oops.

Sorry.

I didn't know.

Anyway, Mahershala is lonely, has no place else to go, comes to the apartment for Feast of the Seven Fishes, And Linda Cartellini leans over into Mahershala's ear and says, I'm, I can't believe, I've told y'all, I'm feeling really emotional right now, but like, I know you wrote the letters.

What an ending.

It's fine.

They didn't, we did, because the dinner, they couldn't have sold that dinner because it would have been terrible.

They would have been all kinds of eggplant, like, just terrible jokes, terrible jokes.

It needed to end where it ended.

And the ending is kind of sweet.

I know you wrote the letters.

Oh, I guess we're, I guess I'm going to get up now.

So, who won't

wins the on waiters?

I think Randy Quaid.

Okay.

I think you're right, actually.

I think it's Randy Quaid.

Recasting Couch Weird did it.

Craig has a flex category.

You kind of took it.

I was going to do the Rick Dalton Award for the best fucking acting I've ever seen in my life.

And

for our generation with Heath Ledger, we have 10 Things I Hate About You.

We have A Night's Tale, which is a movie I really like.

Oh, yeah, A Night's Tale.

Another good movie star performance from Heath Ledger.

Totally.

Broke Back and Dark Night.

Beloved movie.

Broke Back and then Dark Knight.

And I think even with some of the best of the best, Leo, Daniel Day Lewis, when I'm watching movies with them, I still see Daniel Day Lewis and Leo DiCaprio.

I think Heath Ledger is the only lead where I'm like, I don't.

I don't see Heath Ledger.

Like The Joker and Brokeback Mountain and 10 Things I Hate About You, which is like a teen romantic comedy.

The fact that he gets away with all three of those characters and you never once think about any of the other ones, even when you re-watch these movies over and over, I think is so incredibly impressive at his age.

I don't think anybody else has done it like that.

There's no through line.

I mean, it's true that we don't have enough data really to create one.

Yeah.

But the one of the like,

I don't know, silver linings of the tragedy of his life is that

all the characters are these, they stand individually, discreetly apart from each other?

I mean, the next time most people saw Heath Ledger after Broke Back Mountain was as the fucking Joker, right?

And it was like immediately at work, and it was one of the best performances ever.

To go from Ennis to the Joker is like one of the most insane jumps in movie roles, I think, ever.

It's really crazy.

I agree.

Yeah.

I mean,

in a weird way, I'm always reluctant to give actors credit for

stretching or like doing something different from the other thing.

But I also think that

I don't know how old.

So he was 26.

He's 25 and broke back.

He's like 21 when he does 10 things I hate about you.

And he's like 27, 28.

Because I think the thing that

feels impressive now is

who

who's going from that to that?

Right.

Like who is whose pendulum can swing that far from one direction to the other direction?

The guy who just came to mind is Pattinson?

Yeah, but there's a little.

I still always feel like he's Pattinson.

It's not that.

Chalamet, I always feel like he's Chalamet.

I even feel like Leo is always Leo.

Fair, but you know what the thing about the...

Wait, can I?

Well, I don't know.

You don't feel like Ledger is always Ledger.

Well, we're talking about.

Red.

See, the thing is,

we've already left the zone of young people.

DiCaprio is 50, right?

I was about to talk about Denzel.

I had to bite my tongue, but in this new Spike Lee movie, he's doing another, this is another Denzel.

I've never seen this Denzel before.

It's very subtle, but it's very different.

Younger Pacino

became different people in weird ways.

But the point, but Craig's point is: I don't know.

It's very difficult now to imagine, given the dearth of material, the scaredy catness of the people managing people,

the actual lack of talent, I hate to say.

Like, I don't know who is capable of first giving the broke back performance

and then giving that performance and getting cast as the Joker.

So you're agreeing with Craig?

Yes.

I'm just saying, you don't, you, we can't have this conversation for very long and still be

under 30 years old.

You know what else is a good category?

The Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot.

This is a real category.

Still here.

Michelle Williams requested that her two male leads kiss in front of her to help her get in the right emotional place for her character, Elma.

Good for her.

She was involved with Ledger in real life.

She felt it would help her.

She had to goad both men into it as their first attempts were too half-hearted for her liking.

Michelle Williams, ultimate method actor.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I don't know what Jake Gyllenhaal's preferred mode of acting is but they definitely seem heath ledger and michelle williams definitely seem to be it's funny the marriages align with the way i think of them as actors yeah and i think ann hathaway and jake gyllenhall are a particular kind of actor to me um and michelle williams and heath ledger are a different kind of actor Yeah, so it all kind of makes sense, but good for her.

Have fascinated research.

How many takes for the tent sex scene oh god i think ang lie wanted i was thinking about

how many takes it would take to get it to get it right um or to make ang lie happy at least well the answer was 13.

wow and they used the 13 take whoa um

huh ledger grew up around horses and learned to speak in wyoming and texas accents Texas accents.

Filmed the movie in southern Alberta.

Oh, good Canada doing another great performance is us williams sprained her knee in the snow scene ledger injured his hand when he punched the wall and they had a kissing scene and ledger almost broke jylenhall's nose i don't know what scene it was probably the one craig hates yeah

uh utah jazz owner larry h miller oh no i remember this

remove remove the movies from the theaters Oh man.

In Utah.

He didn't want it.

Didn't have the right family values for Larry.

uh he said did he see the movie he said no resemblance of traditional family which he believed is quote dangerous did he watch the movie focus feature says we'll never send another movie to utah how about that good for you oh focus features by the way yeah great job by them uh broke back mountain first major film to be released simultaneously on dvd and digital download

is that significant apparently uh for the films we're i have some alternate foreign language titles for broke back mountain

Oh, no, I'm so scared.

Don't be scared.

We have

in French, Italian, and Portuguese, it was titled Les Secret de Brokeback Mountain.

You guys, what the fuck?

No!

Or o segreto de Brokeback Mountain?

No, come on, survey says.

No, what?

In Canadian French, the translation was Memories of Brokeback Mountain.

Okay, thank you.

See, the Canadians will also

like the Spanish titles.

Oh, no.

In a forbidden terrain

and secret in the mountain.

Forbidden Terrain is like 1999, 1992 cigar.

El Terraino Vedado.

And then in Hungarian.

Uh-oh.

These guys usually make the best posters.

So let's see what they got.

Tul El Beratsko Lagon,

Beyond Friendship.

Kind of a provocative title.

Kind of provocative.

Provocative.

I think Beyond Friendship's a good title.

I kind of like it.

These, the Hungarians.

Like, if Netflix had a show that launched today and it was like Beyond Friendship, I'd be like, oh, all right, what's this about?

I kind of like that.

I actually do like that.

So

Annie Pearl said she regretted writing the story several years later and said she gets too many fan fiction about

alternative plots, people saying, Here's what you got wrong, and just a lot of backdoor driving with the

backseat driving.

Men who were like doing fancy driving.

Backdoor, okay.

Yeah.

I mean, we should just say, just real quick, this short story is a marvel.

It is a marvel of concision, brevity, description.

Have you read it?

It's funny.

No, it's great.

It's really great.

It is a phenomenal.

It was

the New Yorker, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Depressing if you're a writer.

Oh, this might make you cry.

Yeah.

Uh-oh.

I haven't done it yet.

I haven't cried.

Daniel Day-Lewis won the SAG Award for There Will Be Blood and dedicated it to Heath Ledger's memory and said the final scene in Ennis' trailer was as moving as anything I've ever seen.

I remember that.

Yeah.

I remember that.

Heath Ledger told Philadelphia Inquirer that there was a sequence film for the movie where Jack and Ennis helped some hippies get their car out of a river and it took three days to shoot and it was terrible and everybody hated it.

yeah that's not in the story that's for sure and then uh annie pearl sent jake and heath an original autographed copy of her story and wrote to jake to jake and when she did it for heath ledger she accidentally signed it to ennis

and then realized

that it was like a almost like a freudian slip like he became annes to the point that she said and then she just kept it that way and she told him like i just can't believe you became that character like you did so here's the book.

Wow.

What a lady, by the way.

The more I read about her, I mean, just one of our great writers.

Great writer.

Apex Mountain.

Keith Fledger.

I mean,

because

39 came out, he was, he had already.

This is the apex, right?

This is the apex.

It felt like anything was possible with him.

That's this movie.

Gyllenhaal, I think it's later.

I think it's in that end of watch.

What's that movie he made with

It's a good movie with, what's his face?

Hugh Jackman?

Prisoners?

Oh, Prisoners.

That's a Villeneuve.

It doesn't.

I like Prisoners.

You like Prisoners, Chris?

I haven't seen it.

It's key up enough.

It's like the,

I'm, as you know, I'm really torn about this director, but it's a good use of Jake Gyllenhaal and Hugh Jackman and Viola Davis and Terrence Howard.

But the movie is nuts.

Not as good as for Villeneuve Davis.

And Melissa Leo, I think.

Not as good as for Viola Davis as Black Hat being able to be in that classic that we've already done, the rewatchables.

Ang Li, would you go here or would you go Life of Pie?

For Apex Mountain?

It's probably here, right?

Because he makes this and it's like anything's possible.

Anything is possible.

Like, yeah, I think it's definitely that.

Well, Crouching Tiger,

it's probably this.

It's this.

It's this.

Because he comes and makes.

an like,

well,

he's a student of America, though.

He's made so many great movies about the United States.

Michelle Williams?

No.

Definitely not.

Traumatize Michelle Williams' wife characters?

I think it's Manchester.

I think it's Manchester, by the way.

Pathway, no.

Sheep.

A lot of sheep.

Might be the most sheep we've ever had in a movie.

No.

What's the answer to that then?

Il quattro voltra.

Okay.

The great Italian movie that is just it's one of my favorite movies and if you loved it like just just watch it very sheepy if memory serves gay westerns

oh

yes but it did inspire some some actual gay

cowboy what was the movie i didn't like with benedict cumberbatch much later that wasn't a western oh the power of the dog yeah i didn't like that movie uh doesn't really work for me either that's another one of those oscar contenders where like six years later you go wait what happened it's kind of how you know the movies change too like i mean that's a movie that really spoke to my brain more than it did anything else um that's all i got for apex mountain this will be fun though cruise or hanks

i this is a um and by the way you can go any age range for either guy

So for these guys, you would go 20s

Hanks.

This is the tragedy.

Or you can go Cruise as the Randy Quaid character.

You can do whatever you want.

But this is why this movie was such a big deal.

It's because there's no moment in time.

Maybe in the 70s you could have got Pacino and Kazale to do this or something like that.

But then, like, what are they doing?

I think Pacino and Kazale absolutely would have done this.

Pacino fucking made Cruz.

One of the five greatest movies of all time.

I don't think that Tom Cruise would have gone near this thing with like any era of time.

So Tom Cruise is the answer because he could have played Jack Twist.

I don't think he would have played Jack Twist.

Would not have played played Jack Twist.

Top Gun Era, Tom Cruise.

He would be like, my next movie is Broke Back Mountain.

But the thing about him is he totally could have played Jack Twist.

He would have been a really good Jack Twist.

He would have been a really good Jack Twist.

We could have had a real laugh at us.

There could have been a running scene, though, where one of the sheep gets away and he's just sprinting.

Well, there are those moments where Jake Gyllenhaal is really kind of just enjoying himself, being drunk as Jack.

Yeah.

He gets a little cruisey-ish.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know.

I feel like.

How about Scorsese or Spielberg?

Probably Spielberg.

I don't know.

It's a great question.

Spielberg is the obvious answer.

Scorsese's broke back mountain would have been

doing bumps with the beans.

Yeah, I don't know.

I feel like it would be interesting to see what choices.

I love movie director karaoke, right?

Yeah.

Like when given the opportunity to

inhabit the filmmaking of of another great director what does a great director do it doesn't happen very often but every once in a while you get something like gus fan santz remake a psycho or something um

i'd be curious to see like scorsese try and do a bergman or a what was that mountain what was the one he did in the 90s age of innocence yeah oh i mean great case

for example that's good bill That's one of my favorite Scorsese, by the way.

What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

Oh, Randy Quaid's character.

Yeah, for sure.

I had that as well.

Picking Knits.

Well, you already, I one of mine was: could you really eat beans for that many months?

But you said we passed up a chance for

Tommy.

How's the peeping?

Oh, Randy confidence, Randy.

He's literally peeping on the two guys.

Hey, Jack Twist.

How's the peeping?

Anyway,

how's the peeping?

Pick and knits.

This is from my wife who's seen this movie too many times.

Ann Hathaway has a newborn, and it drives my wife crazy when babies are in movies, but they're clearly like four months old.

And it's just, she wanted me to put that in the pod.

She's like, just let's all get better,

Hollywood, with when we have newborn babies and a newborn baby scene.

She's got child labor issues.

She's like, don't have the baby be four months old.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

Interesting.

I hear that, Carol.

Alma Jr.,

we've mentioned a lot of the pick and knits already.

Jack's mom saying, you come back and see us again.

We put that invitation in my back pocket.

I have more unanswerable questions than picking it.

Okay.

Can I add a picking knit?

Please.

Hey, Ennis, maybe use the fishing gear once.

He didn't know.

He just doesn't respect her.

What are they eating up?

It's just such a

McDonald's.

What?

In the middle of Wyoming?

They're just stopping.

Are they just eating beans?

They're probably, I don't know.

Use the fish.

Okay, now.

Wait, hold on.

You actually are starting to make some sense.

Yeah.

This is.

Well, no, no, no, no, no.

So

I have a counter, though.

I think Ennis was so dumb about all this stuff.

He's so wrapped up in the middle of the day.

I've heard with him like, oh, I should pretend I felt like he wasn't.

He doesn't respect her at all.

I understand that as like a choice, but man, ridiculous that you would never even open it, use it.

He never even saw the note.

He never opened it.

They went for how many years was he doing this?

He never opened the box.

Also, like, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's, but it's a sign of how wrapped up he is in everything.

I will say it's such a great character detail, right?

Because it's so stupid of him.

It's so, he, this Jack Twist, Jack Twist is a great fucking name, right?

Yeah.

And it's just twisted up in his feelings, his common sense, his decision making.

Like, but also maybe actually fish and eat the fish.

I don't know.

But this raises Jack was, maybe, maybe Jack was like bringing steaks or something.

This raised a key point, though.

I had this on unanswerables, but we could put it in pick and knits.

What did these guys do for a week if they weren't fishing unless it was just straight sex for 24 hours a day?

Like, they weren't like hanging out, going on walks.

They're just, yeah.

But that's the thing.

But you'd think they fucking needed the fishing.

What else are they doing?

Are they playing?

There's no TV.

Are they doing like hikes?

You know what I think?

You know what I think?

They'd be like, hey, let's do a hike.

I'm sure Jack brought the fishing gear.

I guess.

I think they would have had to have fished.

We're not saying they used to.

What else are they going to do?

Jack, they're going to go kill

you every time.

They used Jack's.

They didn't use Ennis's.

Like, maybe Jack was bringing other stuff, but just in the story, the thing that's beautiful about it is the way time passes.

And she names all the geological and physical locations that they spend all this time.

Devil's lightning scene.

Oh my God.

You guys went all over.

They spent a lot of time together, but,

and it's still when they have that fight, Jake Jillenhall's care, like Jack still is like, you think you might be able to get by on two high altitude fucks once or twice a year, but not me.

I need to be fucking a lot more than twice a year at this altitude.

Anyway, what's the altitude?

Going to Mexico.

Do you do you not last as long at altitude?

No.

Me personally?

No, like in general.

High altitude, folks?

Not in Michigan.

I didn't know why he pointed out high altitude.

It's just a great line.

It's a great line.

I didn't know if you don't last as long at high altitude or if that's a thing.

I didn't know why he pointed out.

I mean, there, well, I mean, if you think about what he's asking, or you get tired quicker?

The only place that Ennis will go is that far.

He doesn't want to leave his area.

I was trying to.

And they're just, it's so secluded.

I was trying to think of the funniest thing they were doing to kill time when they were hanging out.

And it's definitely a board game.

Cards.

It's like they're playing spades or they're playing Monopoly.

I just like, God damn, I knew I shouldn't have sold you the oranges.

Like,

Satan, oh, you always get me with the oranges, Jack Twist.

But I actually love that we are sitting here talking about how these two men spent their non-

time.

Well, they're there in a week in the middle of nowhere.

I knew that to a fish.

But can I just say that the thing that I have not cried yet, and I'm not going to, I take it all back.

But I think that the thing that is so moving about this movie in so many ways and the thing that I could not have appreciated as a

29-year-old or whatever.

Yeah.

Is what love is.

And love.

at some point becomes so much about so much more

than the sex.

Yeah.

And I think that one of the things I tell Craig this all the time.

I mean, as marital advice, as a married person to another married person, it's boss, you know, in the HR when we do like our HR reviews.

Well, I have to give him some

every year,

which is what?

It's not all about the sex, Craig.

Yeah.

There's more to it.

I mean, but truly, honestly, I think that like it was so dumb of me.

Or like,

I think that the real kind of social genius of this movie and the people who hated it and never saw it, but accused it of being activist,

they didn't understand what the activism really was.

The activism is that these men are not shown screwing each other's brains out every 15 minutes.

It's that we understand that what is going on on these trips, or at least I watching it as

a person in a relationship and in love with somebody right now, is that there is so much more happening in these years

than the fucking.

And the real radicalism is that these two men have found a way to live more or less in harmony until Ennis gets in his feelings and wants to murder.

And

that we've definitely never seen before.

Like where the three of us can sit around and talk about how romantic this movie is.

Yeah, and especially the other relationships are so bad and the other one good ones are so bad and think about this it's happening in nature right yeah it's happening in the outdoors um

in god's country it's pretty rare when a movie can pull off when you're upset that the characters didn't end up together i mean casablanca is one of the most famous movies of all time right that's

this is something that's been happening forever, but movies try to, especially like every rom-com tries to do this, every sort of whatever, and it's a hard plane in the land.

But here's another sub-category for you: yeah,

when the relationship doesn't work out because one of the characters made a stupid choice or made a principal choice that isn't stupid but is principal, or in Manchester by the Seas case,

burn their house down, whatever, yeah, that's a worst case scenario in this, but when the but but that doesn't count because it's not a love story, but when the love story doesn't work out, right, because somebody just can't

do it.

Yeah.

That is really,

that's a very tricky and

to me, really moving

way of thinking about love too.

You know what's a good version of this, weirdly, is big.

Ooh, oh, interesting.

Even though it is not age well.

Because.

Because she's talking about bad stuff.

The kid's about to be 12 again and she's like, hey, give me a call in a couple of years.

Like, whoa, we've talked about it in rewatchables, but it's like that kind of thing.

These two actually might have been soulmates, and it just can't work out.

Because, by the way, he's actually 12.

I think Elizabeth Perkins would have waited.

I think she really would have.

She's great in that movie, she sure is.

Um,

wait, we have a couple more categories before we go.

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treyo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo,

Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview,

Long Legs, or Wilfred Brimley and the firm.

I mean,

can we describe Sam Jackson's role in this

as the David Harbor character, perhaps?

Not a lot of blacks in this movie.

I don't not a lot.

There is zero.

Yeah.

There's zero.

Would you, are you expecting to see some?

I'm just trying to figure out how Sam Jackson.

Well, you know, if they were making this movie now, they would find a way to put a black person in it, and I would object.

Could Sam Jackson unless it was Kanye West, which could make Sam regionally fishing

fishing like near these guys?

How do we know what the fuck are those guys doing?

That's like Sam Jackson.

Well, what would Doris be doing?

Doris?

Doris Berg.

I want you to watch Jack Twist

how he maneuvers these sheep around.

There is nobody better.

He is in full scale.

He knows what his herd is and what the other herd is.

And this is just a masterclass, wesley

oh nobody cooks beans like jack twist

uh just one oscar who gets it one of the tougher ones in a while because it could go the movie heath ledger or ang lee and ang lie won the oscar and score won the oscar i think you give it to the movie

i think it goes i i'm down with that is that way you honor everybody yes it's the just thing to do Probably unanswerable questions.

At the end, so Jack Twist had kind of moved on to our guy david harbor yes begrudgingly begrudgingly he was never over this is a love of your life situation but also jack made it clear like i need to twist did we need a and

did we need ennis at the end to be like he goes up against the shirt and it's like this guy and just whips it

watch give this to the cabin guy

it just gets bad but you know who didn't come see the parents yeah david harbor didn't often bury the ashes or take the ashes that broke back mountain?

David Harbor.

This is really good stuff here for unanswerable questions.

In 2010, Anne Hathaway gave an interview about this movie, and she said she had no idea whether Lorraine told the truth or not in the phone conversation after Jack died.

I love that.

It gets better.

She shot two takes of the scene.

One in which Lorraine knew what was going on and knew about the gay bashing, and one in which she had no idea it was a terrible accident with a car tire.

Shots from both takes were edited together in the final movie.

And she still doesn't know what Aang Lee thought the character knew.

And she says, Aang knows the truth in her head.

It's not important to me.

The ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking.

Can we just create stuff by Aang Li Ang Li, man?

Do this one way, do this this way.

And I don't know what I want.

He had two editors on this movie, I believe, and one of whom one of them passed away during post-production

and or at some point during the production of the movie.

And I, I just, I, it, I love Anne Hathaway so much as a professional person.

Yeah.

And I love that she, I love listening to her talk about how she does her job.

Um, and treats you.

Yeah, she took shit for really loving being an actor and being kind of artsy fartsy.

But this is how we got where we got.

But now it's back.

People people are back in.

Like, Devil Wars Prada 2 is going to make a kajillion dollars, and that's going to be her exclamation point career moment, I think.

Which, if it's good, I have mixed feelings about, but either way, I just

enough with enough with these AAR pequels.

I don't know, like, this is a sequel I fully support.

I want to know what's going on with these characters.

Like, do you really?

There's Adrian Grunier of a food truck,

he makes a hell of a grilled cheese.

He's set up in Boston, LA,

Not in Eric Adams, New York.

He doesn't.

I'm going to leave that alone.

What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie?

I mean, I'm just going to be really basic and ask for the shirts.

So the shirts sold on eBay in 2006 for $101,000.

I have no idea what they're worth that.

This 2006.

I think now they would be probably.

Especially the Heath Ledger one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coach Finstock Award, Best Life Lesson.

Um,

wait, but I can't remember with this category.

Is it as expressed in the movie or the lesson I've learned about life from the movie?

It's the lesson from the movie.

Follow your heart.

I think that's, I was going to say, when you're in love, when you're in love, yeah, yeah,

although the movie does have some advice for everybody else.

Uh,

what is it?

Um,

if you can't fix it, then you got to stay in it, or if you can't, if you can't fix it, then you got to stand it.

Like, I had, there's a, he, there's an NS quote in here when he says, when you got nothing, you don't need nothing.

I was like, that's pretty good.

That would have been a good high school yearbook quote.

That's, I,

that defeatism is not working for me.

I think Annie Pearl's fixing it and staying in it, that's, that's genius and true.

What do you have for double feature choice?

Moonlight.

I would, I thought Dark Knight to get both sides of the ledger.

Wow.

Interesting.

Oh, that's great.

I love that.

But I like the Moonlight's good too, though.

I like that.

Who won the movie?

Has to be Heath Ledger.

Heath Ledger.

Tough beat for Ang Lee.

I don't know what else he had to do.

He's doing different takes for Ann Hathaway, setting the scene, putting it together.

He got a little Academy Award.

And Heath Ledger wins it, though.

I think this plus the Joker,

he becomes...

one of the

one of the most beloved actors, I think, of this century, but also also one of the great what-if acting careers he but the interesting thing about him is like the myth of him is really about the things that we've been talking about it's all the what ifs right it's not like his myth the myth isn't like is he still alive or the scandal of his death i mean it really is about the work he did not get to do and that That to me feels really rare.

Craig Korbeck,

first time in the new set with his own camera this is really exciting stuff yeah it's good it's almost like the offensive coordinator's camera in nfl i'm in the booth yeah i feel like i'm doing a testimonial on love island you should wear like a niners warm-up jacket as your steel stewards oc jacket with the headphones on yeah

um i i had not seen this nor had liz we watched it together what i know Liz is like the, like, she loves Jake Chillenhall the most.

I know.

I don't know.

You know, I was 10-ish when this came out.

I don't know.

It's just like, for some reason, I never saw it.

We both absolutely loved it.

Just

a beautiful movie.

The end particularly is my favorite part.

The last line of the movie you guys didn't mention, which Liz and I talked about for 20 minutes.

Oh, Jack, I mentioned it.

Jack, I swear.

Jack, I swear.

Beautifully vague and

Diane Warren song that turned out not.

I thought about putting that in unanswerable questions, but I think it's supposed to be unanswerable, which is the whole point of Jack.

We talked about it.

We're like, what does he mean?

And it was almost like, it's not even about that.

Like, you kind of know exactly what he means, even though the words don't make sense.

Yeah.

Well, in the story, there's this great, like, that

happens at the very end of the story.

And

so that's accurate to the short story.

Annie Prols has this great

line

of this paragraph that basically where she says,

answering, he's answering a question Jack never asked him.

He never asked Jack to swear to anything, but here he was doing it anyway.

It just like he was so carried away.

I mean, this character is so amazing.

The ways in which he's always fighting himself.

And then these moments of truth come out and they come out wrong.

But that, to me, at the end of the movie, is the one moment where he says an honest thing that isn't also using his fists.

or, you know, his forearms to express it.

It's one of the best movies of the 21st century.

It's also such.

I can't can't believe you haven't seen it.

I know.

But it makes sense.

Like you were 10.

Yeah, I don't know.

When are you going to cue that one up when you're an adult?

Yeah.

And so I'm so happy that I got to watch it.

It's also such a depressing example of the decline in movie going.

This movie made 180 million, which now is like 300 million, which is insane.

Like this movie would have to be a TV show now because.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Movies are not a place where people go to challenge themselves.

Like, I can't believe this movie made double what Crash made in 2005.

Crash made 90.

This made 180.

And the fact that people in America were like willing to go to this movie in 2005, challenge themselves, sit through an adult drama like this is just so remarkable and would definitely never, ever happen now.

Have to be a TV show.

It would be probably a really great 10 episodes that would win Emmys, but it wouldn't be a movie.

Wouldn't be a movie.

Couldn't be a movie.

It would definitely, definitely be a 10-episode Apple TV situation.

I do think as good as this movie is, the two actors have to be awesome in it for it to get to where it got to.

It all has to work.

It all has to work.

And you could say that with a lot of movies, but I think this one in particular,

if you even mess up one of the parts, I think the movie gets,

the balance gets to be aware of.

I also think it's like this intangible thing where the two actors really have to, you have to believe that these two people,

the one moment you allow yourself to think about this as something other than a story being told

and that there was a production and people were on set all the time.

You have to believe that these two people, when Ang Lee says cut, these guys are going to walk off and get a cigarette or a beer together or a coffee or standard or a blanket together.

You have to believe that these two men playing these parts really do love each other.

There's an alternate universe where this movie is made with like Ashton Kutcher and Orlando Bloom.

This is why.

And it's like, oh, you mean, and that's

what you're talking about.

I'm just saying like they can't get 2005 or they can't get anybody else.

And it's like, well, it's Ashton Kutcher's the name.

I'm interested in, because in the story, they're not really good-looking men.

They're like, they're just men who.

Oh, like, I would, I probably would be attracted to both these guys in Annie Pruls's story, but they're not, they're not getting movie parts in 2005 based on the way she's written them.

Right.

And they're, I, I think that there is something about a Danny McBride or a Shane Gillis, like more average-looking guys who

I don't, or Jesse Plemons.

I mean, these, we're saying these guys are too old, but like, I think there are all kinds of ways to reach out to you.

No, it should be more regular guys.

We don't have regular looking leads.

There's no, this doesn't exist anymore, right?

There's no gene hackman.

So to go

to go that route, you kind of almost have to look in unusual places.

Yeah.

And I think, I honestly think that if you, if, if Ang Lee were like, if the Ang Lee that made Ride with the Devil and Ice Storm

and, you know, and Hulk, if that guy got a hold of those of Danny McBride and Shane Gillis.

Will Farrell and John C.

Riley?

I mean,

maybe, but there's too much baggage.

Yeah, there's too much comedy baggage.

The baggage with Shane Gillis and Danny McBride is just, it's just, it just weighs less.

You could probably get away with it.

Hold on.

Shane Gillis is on the phone.

He's turning this idea down.

He didn't like it.

He said no.

Creeped him out.

Did he creep about it?

He officially passed.

Oh, all right.

Well, that's on him.

We'll get Nathan Fielder.

Now, Nathan Fielder,

prepared for anything for him.

That wouldn't work.

Craig Korbeck, thank you.

Chris, thank you.

First one in the new set.

So great.

I had a great time.

I forgot we were doing a podcast.

Like 10 times.

I mean, this is like, it's beautiful in here.

Wesley Morris, you're back.

We're filming another one later that'll probably run two episodes after this that I'm excited about.

Great to see you, as always, my friend.

Great to see you.

Thanks for having me.

You're welcome.

This episode is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures.

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