‘Quiz Show’ With Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman

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Brian Koppelman pops on from time to time on the Rewatchables.

We used to do movies that came out at least 30 years ago, like Rollerball, which is 50 years ago.

Quiz Show is a movie that you were texting me forever.

We have to do this.

When are we doing this?

It's a combination like guilt trip.

slash

almost like an agent trying to trying to, we got to talk, we got to talk about the next deal.

Like just like there was a real urgency.

And then finally, Red for month happened it's true well every time i would think because people would always ask me like what are my most re-watched movies and and this movie after the movies that are the obviously most watched the godfather good fellas right this is my most watched film after the after the batch of movies that my stripes princess bride after the core movies that formed who we are, this is the next most, for me personally, the most re-watched movie.

So that's why it's always been like, well, if we're, you know, I've done like eight or nine, I think that I've done this nine times with you.

And this is my most re-watched movie other than those.

So that's why I always brought it up.

And then, yeah, when Redford died, it's like, I mean, we got to do it.

Quiz Show, last movie of Redford Month coming up next.

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Koppelman, I thought we were going to get television.

The truth is, television is going to get us.

Is this true?

Let's start there because it's such a great quote.

I think it's true.

I mean,

I think if, I mean, you want to jump to,

I mean, if you want to jump right to

what from the movie has sort of over time been the truest thing is that uh rigged reality shows can change the world

and tv and what we perceive we're seeing from tv and how tv can shape society and it has gone in a whole bunch of ways the last 30 years this movie came out in 1994

september

September 10th, Pulp Fiction.

September 14th, Quiz Show.

September 24th, Shawshank.

Those three movies in 14 days.

And Quiz Show gets a little lost in the awards thing because this turns into Forrest Gump versus Shaw Shank versus Pulp Fiction.

It was an amazing movie year.

But remember when we used to just have awesome movies coming out every week?

That was great.

And I'm sure as you do, like I actually remember the theater for each of the movies you just said.

Oh, yeah.

I truly remember the experience of seeing pulp fiction, obviously, Quiz Show and Shaw Shank.

So, yeah, that was an incred

mind-boggling.

That was just

a month and a half at the movies or whatever.

The month and a half is two weeks.

I remember Post Fiction.

I remember Shawshank.

And sadly, I remember Quiz Show being just completely upset, angry, and appalled by Rob Morrow's Boston accent.

So it was those, those three things.

And by the way, not the last time Rob Morrow's Boston accent is going to come up in this podcast.

But yeah, it was such a great movie.

And yet, you know, I saw it in Boston.

And I think I saw it with my dad, and we're leaving.

Like, what the fuck was that accent?

Why can't people get the Boston accents?

This is the peak of that.

I remember, well, just a couple years later, Matt and Ben fixed everything for you.

And then they sure did.

Uh, David O'Russell and Wahlberg, everybody fixed it for you.

You know what I mean?

Right afterwards, all those movies fixed things for you.

But I'll say, having just, I was only, you know, I got out of tufts, what, six years before this movie came out.

I was, I was still pretty familiar.

Uh, I'm quite familiar with Ruggalok.

I was still pretty familiar with

Boston

accents.

And yes, Morrow got such, first of all, I love Rob Morrow.

I think he's incredible in the movie.

And I feel like he was unfairly maligned.

There are a lot of crappy, there are a lot of Boston accents that maybe aren't exactly what you'd want to hear.

But I think the people who weren't native Bostonians, it didn't drive us crazy.

No, because there was the TV movie version of the Boston accent, which was like this weird Kennedy.

Anyway, we don't need to spend time.

So you're Connecticut.

I mean, you're a Connecticut guy.

I'm a freaking Massachusetts guy.

Screw off.

This scandal was ground zero

for TV manipulating viewers, big bad corporations just doing the wrong thing, the cult of celebrity, and a loss of American 1950s, I would say, innocence and...

idealism and bigger institutions.

It wasn't just this show.

We had sports scandals, right?

We had a massive college basketball scandal.

We had all the McCarthy stuff going on.

It just felt like we came out of World War II.

Oh my God, we're doing so great.

Halberstam's book is fantastic about this, which I haven't read in a while, but the 50s was really fun.

It really hit a lot of this, has a quiz show chapter in it about 21.

But this is right as things are turning, like people, oh, maybe, maybe it's not all hunky-dory.

Maybe I shouldn't trust everything.

And this show hits right in the vortex of that.

It really does.

And I think at the beginning of this, I do want to say, like, I'm so really grateful to talk about this movie because I do think what you said is so great.

And I really hadn't thought about why the movie got lost between those other two films.

And of course, Shawshank was a slow burn and became considered the greatest movie ever.

We both had read the short story and loved it.

And I was fully ready for Shawshank and saw it in the theater and loved it.

But I do love talking about this film because it's all the things you said, and yet it's not a downer when you're watching it.

Like it's everything you just said, but

the movie also captures that feeling of innocence that was lost.

It captures like.

You know, what does he say?

Everyone wants the best for you, Charlie.

Like everyone wants to think the best of you.

Like that idea that people were still trying to think the best of each other and it was possible is like at the heart of it.

It's like such a human movie.

And

I'm going to say if you're at a corny meter, like I'm at risk of it.

And I apologize to everybody, but this movie just makes me feel so good because it's like deeply flawed people trying to like get outside of their own, like we all are, like just trying to get outside of their own limitations and failing or maybe succeeding a little bit or having a moment of grace.

And

also Atanasio wrote one of the greatest, and talk about a heater run.

I mean, the guy had this and Donny Brasco and Disclosure and Homicide.

Like the guy just was on this unbelievable screenwriters run.

And I think Quiz Show is like one of the greatest screenplays of the, you know, since 19, whatever, 90 to now.

Yeah, I was going to ask you that because you've spent half of your life probably in final draft documents with you and Levine just staring at stuff and half-written scenes.

um this is like a revered screenplay and i was watching i watched the movie twice to try First time I watched it just because I hadn't seen it in a few years.

Like, then the second time I was really watching it, how they constructed it and the scenes and the dialogue and everything.

So I had it in the back of my head.

And it's just,

it's just so crisp.

There's not like that.

I don't feel like there's a scene wasted.

It's not a slow movie.

There's a pace to it.

Every scene and moment has a purpose.

All the transitions, the montage comes in the perfect place.

It just, it's kind of a clinic on how to write a two-hour movie about something that happened 40 years earlier.

You know what I mean?

It really is.

And he found a way to show you these kind of people

who

don't even really exist anymore, like the family, because he puts it through the eyes of this guy who was like bootstrapping it.

Right.

I mean, you know, we,

you've lived a version of this.

You went into this industry.

I mean, I, I, I have to think you could relate in some ways to Goodwin in that not now, like, because you went into this industry that wanted to keep you out.

Right.

And no, seriously, dude, right.

You were a kid who was at this school.

Like you'd gotten there.

Yeah, you didn't grow up with nothing, but you didn't grow up like a lot of the other people who got into the media landscape.

Right.

And like you had an idea like Dick Goodwin does about like, well, I think that I can, I don't know, let's get in rooms with these people and see if I'm.

see if I know what I'm doing and see if my way is right and see if I can be smarter than them and outthink them.

And like, and I know the rooms that you were in and I know the condescending way people spoke to you and like talked about you.

And like, and to me, like the brilliance of this movie is you get Dick Goodwin

and he's not like, he's smart as hell, but he's rough around the edges.

And also

he's not sure he's good enough.

Like he thinks they're better than him.

And then it's heartbreaking for him to realize in a way.

oh oh there are people like we're all just people and it's kind of amazing and that's what the screen that's why the screenplay is so great.

Because the screenplay just takes you on that ride till Mira Servino looks at him and is like, they're no better than you.

And it's, you're almost screaming it at the screen at the same time that, that she is, right?

Well, and he's seduced by the whole life, too.

They do a really good job of get sucked in.

He goes to like the perfect, perfect rich people 1950s outdoor party with.

you know, corn and all, all the lobster, all like the perfect rich people food.

And, and then they're going to take a little nice, nice little boat out, little boat trip.

Hey, can you get the mat?

And it's just like, oh, this is the life that I've always dreamed of being a part of.

And of course, Charlie's like, get the mast, you know, and you could see that Dick barely knows what the mast is.

Like, he's read about it probably at Harvard.

He probably like got on a sailboat once or he doesn't know what he's doing.

And it's such a little moment, but it's perfect, right?

Yeah.

I love that you brought that moment.

It's a little like there's shades of Mr.

Ripley in this,

where that the kind of semi-outsider coming into this world of class.

The movie does class so well.

Like, Van Doren is clearly from

you know, top, top, top of the line.

Where like prestige wasn't just about money back then, it was about like this guy's a professor.

This is a literate society.

This is people knew who Charles Van Doren was because his dad was just like a brilliant guy.

Like, we don't, we don't really have that as well.

Well, the other guy's like, remember that, what's the De Niro movie about the beginning of the CIA?

You know, it was that, that, um, Matt, Matt's in it, and De Niro directed it.

Um, blank and the informant, maybe?

No, like, right, it came out right around when um the departed, like Matt made both movies, like Black and Black.

Good shepherd.

Good shepherd.

That's great.

Yeah.

So, like, you know, these are the guys who started the CIA and they didn't want to let anybody else in, right?

They, they don't want to let Catholics in.

Forget Jews and Italians.

Like, they don't want to let Catholics in.

And

this is the same kind of closed society people who knew best and know the way things are supposed to be.

And, oh, we don't even have a television.

We're not going to watch it.

We're going to quote Shakespeare at each other.

And they're always at big parties where they're making jokes about Eisenhower's dead.

How could they tell?

Like, oh,

I guess there was this famous figure named, it's a great moment screenwriting-wise, right?

There's this famous figure, Edmund Wilson, but everyone in that world calls him Bunny.

And Rob Maura's talking to his wife and he goes, yeah, they're all Thurba this and and Bunny Wilson.

That and she goes, bunny.

And he goes, everyone calls him that.

And the wife goes, that doesn't mean that you should.

Right.

And it's great because he's getting seduced by being around this power and this sort of sense of class.

And that's great.

Hey, you just go over to your dad's house.

There's there's just chocolate cake in the fridge.

Yeah, I'm just having a nice slice of chocolate cake.

Well, what did he say?

He goes, the old birds getting the hang of it about the cake.

I go, the old birds getting the hang of it.

Oh, wait.

I'm sorry.

I'm so glad you brought that up.

There is this moment in it that speaks to it.

Again, it's like Redford's brilliance and Paula Tanasio when he's like,

the dad is played by this incredible actor, Paul Schofield.

And when Charlie comes up in the middle of the night with the chocolate cake, that's one of my favorite.

movie scenes ever.

Like every line in it is just mind-boggling.

And both performances by Ray Fiennes and Paul Schofield's incredible.

But he goes, you you know, I'm going to try some of that, the dad.

And then he goes over to that super old-fashioned silverware holder and he lifts that thing up.

And it's like, they don't have a drawer.

Like, nothing's so crass as keeping their silverware in a drawer like we do.

Or plast, like in the middle of the night, tell me you're not just grabbing a plastic for, you know.

Like, I've been to your house.

You could go grab a plastic fork.

If you were at my apartment, like Amy would be like, don't give him the plastic, please.

But it's just like a regular, it's just like a fork.

Like he's going to the thing and lifting up like.

Well, you left out, there's a painting of the dad behind him on the table, which is like the ultimate rich guy thing.

Here's a painting of me.

Awesome, Bill.

Yes.

And, but every single, yes, it's perfect.

The production is like, but just this idea, like, cause, and they don't comment on it.

And I think you're so tempted, I think also like screenwriting wise and also directing wise.

Like they don't cut to like a little insert of the fork.

Like he gets up and he goes over and he lifts that thing up.

But if you just think about it for a second, that connecticut house like that was passed down that silverware was passed down like four generations right like that thing has been passed from rich waspy family member to rich powerful waspy family member john quincy adams might have given them the silver yeah you just say you have no idea it was just passed down the line because you know this was before there was a catholic president

Right.

When they called the Gentiles and the Jews were like things you you would say, they were like these two groups.

Redford said, Redford wanted to do this movie because

he said, quote, watching Van Dorn and the other contestants was irresistible because he watched Quiz Show when it happened.

Awesome.

He said the actor in me looked at the show and felt like I was watching other actors.

It was too much to believe, but at the same time, I never doubted the show.

I hadn't had evidence television could trick us.

As we know now, there's little morality there.

Redford hated TV.

Then he said the scandal was really the first in a series of scandals that have left us numbed, unsure of what or who to believe.

So this was like a major passion project for him.

He's watching this show.

He's a wannabe actor in New York City.

The thing happens.

And he's like, man, I really didn't trust that I was watching something authentic there.

And then it wasn't authentic.

And it just.

He just kind of followed it away.

And then when he wanted to direct a movie, which at this point he'd done a river runs through through it, he'd done ordinary people in 1980.

Could probably have picked any project he wants.

Anyone signing up for a Redford movie.

There's people in this movie that are real actors that are in it for like Griffin Dunns in this for like a minute.

You know, he's a real actor.

Yeah.

Busfield's like barely in it.

And Busfield's hot at that point.

It's the early 90s.

I asked him.

I was like, how, did Redford call in a favor?

to Busfield.

I was like, how did you end up in the movie?

He goes, yeah, Redford called in a million favors.

He got all these incredible guys.

We didn't say no to him.

This is like when we did sneakers last week, Redford commits to sneakers.

There were no casting what-ifs.

We had no category because once he was in, everybody's like, I'm in.

So whoever they wanted, they just got their.

I think everyone shows up.

I mean, and we'll talk about when you go through and ask the that guy.

I mean, but you got that guy in every scene.

You got some incredible actor.

And, you know, two of the greatest directors of the modern era are playing parts in it.

It's everywhere you turn.

There are these unbelievable performances.

So the screenplay adapted

Richard Goodwin, Dick Goodwin, U.S.

congressional lawyer, played by Rob Morrow, who investigated the accusations.

There's a lot of

stuff after the fact about, and we'll go, I have a section for this, like some of the inaccuracies.

This is somewhere between when they do the based on a true story and it's like based on a true story of Patrick Ewing, but they win the 1994 finals.

Technically, it's based on a true story.

He He played in the 1994 finals.

You could just say Jon Stark's shot went in.

It's based on a true story.

I don't mean to do this to you,

but they definitely took some liberty.

I mean, Jon Starks did get that dunk, though.

He dunked over, you know.

He did.

He did get the dunk.

And then Ray Fiennes, who does Schindler's List the year before, quiz show this year, and then two years later is an English patient.

So he's in three of

three Oscar-nominated films,

two of which won Best Picture.

And this is all in the span of four years.

And this weirdly was his peak, like his best actor peak, but it seemed like in the mid-90s, it really seemed like he was going to be a major, major, major, major star.

He's always quite happy.

He's always so great, though, man.

I mean,

how great.

The guy's just always incredible, right?

Yeah, I feel like he's like one of those athletes who just kind of slid through the cracks, putting up huge seasons.

Huge.

I think the guy is so great.

I think he's one of the most fascinating people to watch, and there's so much going on

in his eyes.

You know, he really acts where the camera picks up so much stuff happening.

I mean, he's one of the absolute great people.

Yeah, you can see his brain, handsome guy, and you can kind of see his brain calculating stuff, which you need in this, because this is a guy who's presenting himself as a certain way.

But he's also being torn up inside because he's living this life.

And, you know, you didn't mention or much.

You didn't mention Toturo, the other lead of the movie.

He's going to go through it.

Yeah.

Keep going.

Totoro.

And then Rob Morrow.

Those are basically the three leads.

Torturo.

I have a lot of thoughts on this performance.

It's he gains 25 pounds.

He's got a weird tooth.

He's incredibly annoying.

And I actually think in a weird way, it hurts the rewatchability of this movie just a tiny bit because herb stemple not a fun hang and he's in a lot of scenes but i think turturo had to play him that way it's funny i think atanasio's cursed twice right because brasco's like the you can't find a more rewatchable movie but you've got to fast forward the nh scenes rest in peace of course

uh one of the other greatest screenplays ever made right dotty brasco perfect by the same writer um i think this though i think that um

Herbie's scenes are saved because he's always in a scene.

Like, I love how hard Tiraturo commits, right?

And if you think about Barton Fink, and if you think about Lebowski, he always commits that hard.

He's absolutely not.

Look, everywhere you turn in this movie, there is somebody who is a world-class, one of the greatest actors of our time.

Like,

don't forget Kanish.

I mean, you're going to list 90s people.

You're not going to mention Kanish.

Well, yes.

I mean, yes, obviously he's Joey Kanish, and that's life changed my personal life, but I don't think the audience cares as much about that.

I care.

All right.

I care.

I remember twice.

the day

the the day that uh he showed up it was beyond our wildest dreams that john tutor was sitting there looking like the real joel bagels you know amazing um

yeah he was incredible uh he's probably the guy i got i'll say this he's the person i probably got to know the least um on that movie he only was six days he was as lovely as could be but

I just, he was so in it.

And we, those days were so long that there wasn't a lot of hanging.

Like, I didn't hang with him.

We were together making the movie, but I don't feel like I ever got to know Toturo.

He was there.

He was Kanish.

He was great.

He said all the words.

He was perfect.

But I think he's amazing as Temple, like in terms of

you believe, I think it's got to be hard, Bill, to create this in a way where you believe this guy would be that self-destructive because.

Herbie Stemple could have lived a life

and never exposed this thing, the Herbie Stemple of the movie.

So the guy had to push it in a way so you would understand that he'd really do this.

But you know, immediately the guy's a huge loser when he's, he can't even let Jack Bear get through the introduction.

He's just repeatedly interrupting him.

Yeah.

And my relatives really like Jared Valley.

He's just going over.

My blood isn't tired anymore.

Yeah.

There's, I was almost thinking, so Bonnie Timmerman cast this,

who over and over again pops up in movies and TV shows like this that are really well cast.

I almost, I got to talk to Chris Ryan about whether we need a Great Eye Bonnie award for movies that are like really well cast.

But this movie has Toturo, David Pamer, like during the David Pamer 90s heater, where he's just in a lot of stuff.

How about that in a way?

It's a David Pamer Hankas area buddy movie.

It's that's like a separate movie.

It's over on the side.

They're incredible, those guys.

Their back and forth, Abben and Costello thing is like mind-boggling.

Yeah.

Christopher McDonald's, Mira Sorvino early.

She's not really Mira Sorvino yet, but she's Rob Morrow's wife.

Griffin Dunn's in this, Ileana Douglas.

And then the coup of having just Scorsese and Barry Levinson

as actors.

And both of them are like about at the peak of their powers at this point, right?

This is Scorsese

four years after Goodfellas.

He can do whatever he wants at this point.

And then, and Levinson, this is, he was in a producing, directing.

He was even a producer in this.

He took his name off because they had so many producers.

His company's evolved, but he was doing whatever he wanted.

And both of those guys are good actors.

They're really good.

As like considering their directors, they're actually good character actors.

They're both excellent in the movie.

I mean, if you don't know Barry Levinson, so like everyone knows it's Marty.

Like, I don't know if everyone knows that that's Barry Levinson, you know, the audience.

And he just feels like he's Dave Garraway.

But Scorsese, when that scene with Scorsese and Rob is really like mind-boggling acting, where you Redford's genius was he cast a guy who knows what it's like to have all the answers and be super powerful and godlike.

Yeah.

And when Scorsese looks at him and goes, I sell Geritol, you think I don't know?

You know how insulting that would be?

That's even more insulting.

And

you never question it.

And when Morrow says, imagine if they could see you, it's one of the greatest moments, you know.

So Morrow, Rob Morrow, I think is really good in this movie.

The accent, it is what it is, but he's doing a lot of really good young guy stuff in this where he's kind of the right age.

He's probably early 30s in real life, but it seems like he's late 20s.

But the way he's kind of staring people down and like, he's got a presence to him, but definitely felt like he could hang with all these people.

And it's weird because he's red hot from Northern Exposure at this point, which was a real like.

critically acclaimed and beloved.

It wasn't a massive hit like ER, but it was a really well-known show.

Him and Janine Turner were like real stars coming out of it.

And he had a lot of different movie possibilities.

He took this one.

His movie career never really took off.

He ended up, I noticed that he was in billions way later as a

judge.

I'd forgotten.

Yeah.

I'd forgotten.

He started as like an attorney.

He was an attorney general and then a judge.

And

yeah, we put him in that.

We put him in, he plays Eddie Q and Super Pumped also.

He's, you know, Rob is a, I think he's a great actor.

And I think he, I don't really understand why he didn't become a big movie star off this movie.

Um, other than that the movie is so beloved by cinem, like people who love movies, but maybe it wasn't

galvanizing in that, in that way.

But,

you know, he did, it's funny.

He was number one on the call sheet for that show numbers and it did run for 100 episodes.

He's had a, and then there was a show on Showtime where he was number one also on the call sheet.

Like he's had a great career, but even I think he would say it could have been more in a, you know, in a way.

I've talked about that.

Yeah, I must wonder what he turned down.

I, you know, probably turned down some really good stuff, right?

When you gave me a podcast and, you know, that I did for 10 years, but this was back in the days when we did it together.

I had Mauro on.

He was like on in the first year I did the podcast and I asked him these questions.

And I think he felt like he made some mistake.

Like, I think he felt like there were just some things that kind of went slightly sideways.

But I got to tell you, he was so great on billions.

I mean, he was in many episodes, you know, and

was every time he'd play a scene, the other actors, like if it was Giamatti, would come up and be like, I'm so happy to have Rob Morrow here.

He's so great.

Like everyone loved working with him.

And I would work with that guy

in a heartbeat.

I feel like he's an excellent actor and a great dude.

And I'm always happy to see him, you know, and I think he's so good in this movie because you believe he's smart as Dick Goodwin.

Like,

Ray Fiennes is obviously, you look at that guy and you go, well, that's a genius.

And it's hard to have somebody stand in there who you feel like can outplay him in the chess match.

And Mauro is, to me, believable.

Do you find him?

I find him very believable in terms of his like

figuring this thing out, you know?

It's funny because it's a gray part.

And I think like five years later.

Damon and Norton are probably in the final two trying to get it.

Right.

And then you go like maybe three years later, Leo's trying to get it.

And it's just one of those like age 28 to 33 American actor parts that you're just like, I need this part.

This is a great part.

I got to get it.

David would have been.

You're so right.

Edward and Matt, either of those guys would have been unreal in that part.

Yeah.

You're so right.

Speaking of Unreal, Paul Schofield, triple crown runner.

one of the great Shakespeare actors of all time, apparently, before my time.

And

it's funny, he gets gets nominated for this for best actor in, I think, one of the most controversial Oscar categories we've maybe ever had.

Oh, wait, I don't know that he wasn't nominated as best supporting actor?

He was.

A best supporting actor.

Okay, yeah.

This is when Martin Landau wins for Ed Wood.

Right.

Sam Jackson loses for Pulp Fiction.

Chas Palm and Terry gets nominated for Bullets Over Broadway.

That is getting nudged out.

Schofield for Quiz Show would be one of those that would be like, oh, get that guy out.

But then you watch the movie and you're like, this guy's incredible.

Like, yeah, it makes sense.

And then Gary Sinise

as Forrest Gump.

Oh, right.

As Lieutenant Dan.

But we lose out.

We don't get Bruce Willis from Pulp Fiction.

We don't get Ving Rames from Pulp Fiction.

There's a whole bunch of other movies from this year that had some possibilities.

But yeah, that's what happened.

But Schofield is like, I mean, like a real legendary, not quite Olivier, but like maybe a level two, like all-time Shakespeare guy that everybody revered.

I, I think, um,

I think Schofield's so good in this movie that

there's no doubt he deserved the nomination, even with all the stuff you just said.

He's so good.

And I heard a story today.

I called Paul Atanasio and

I was like, I'm not going to mention you.

He goes, no, you can.

You can say that.

So Atanasio said that Paul Schofield used to go on.

I'd never heard this till i heard this an hour ago he said that

paul schofield used to go on a silent retreat once a year for a month

but redford wanted this thing you're saying about how redford but redford wants him in the movie but back then there's no cell phones and he's on a silent retreat or there are cell phones in 94 but they're not smartphones you know you're not texting a guy uh to whatever So he's on a silent retreat

on the Isle of Man or someplace like that.

That's what, and Redford's like, no, no, no, it's got to be Paul Schofield.

And they're like, nobody can find Paul Schofield.

We can't get him.

Yeah.

And

Redford's like, where is he?

And they figure out that the place that he is, there's a lighthouse and that there has to be a guy in the lighthouse.

And so they find a way to contact the guy in the lighthouse and they get him to come down from the lighthouse and go find Paul Schofield and say, you got to come to the lighthouse and call Robert Redford.

And so he during a silent retreat.

Yeah.

Gets him off the silent retreat.

He goes to the lighthouse, calls Redford, and then Redford's like, I need you to come do this movie.

And he's like, all right, I'll get my tie to play with around my neck for the movie.

And that's how Mike Tomlin recruited Aaron Rodgers to the Steelers.

Same story.

Yeah, same thing.

He was ayahuasca for whatever that's called, retreat.

Oh, I left out a Rob Morrow quote.

He said, because he was, everybody was going after him

and he decided to quit show.

His quote was, I knew this was the one it had the cachet of Bob Redford.

It was incredibly well written.

Did people call Robert Redford Bob?

Was he a Bob?

I never, I never met him, but everyone calls him Bob.

He's a Bob.

I did not call him Bob.

I never met him, but they all call him Bob.

Yeah,

even today, like Atanasio called him Bob.

Today he was like, well, Bob really wanted him.

Yes, they call him Bob.

Bob Redford.

And then Bobby De Niro,

he gets that one, right?

A little bit.

That's a tough.

So Marty, it's definite.

If you know Scorsese, you've been around, you got to call him Marty.

Well, Marty, yeah, that's a Marty's a no-brainer.

You have no choice but to call him Marty.

Yeah.

I would say

everybody does call De Niro Bob, but it's tough to get it out of your mouth.

You want to call him Robert.

It's tough to get out of your mouth.

Yeah.

This got nominated for Best Picture.

The other nominees were

Shaw Shank, Pulp Fiction, Four Weddings and a Funeral, and the winner, Forrest Gump.

And then Redford was nominated as director.

Zemekis won for Forrest Gump.

Tarantino nominated.

Frank Derabont for Shawshank, not nominated.

And then we have

the best writing on screenplay based on material previously published.

Adenasio nominated for that, but Forrest Gump won that one too.

Forrest Gump, now I've kind of circled back.

Force Gump's a really good movie.

It was a lot of like movie nerd hatred for it for a while because it took all this stuff, but it's a tough one.

I mean, I personally vote for Shawshank because you take a short story and you make one of the great American movies the last 35 years out of it.

But

so many great movies that year.

Yeah,

I never dissed Forrest Gump.

I definitely think Pulp Fiction or Shawshank should have won a lot of these awards.

And Quiz Show, right, right there.

Pulp on great films.

Pulp on screenplay.

Screenplay.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah.

So Quiz Quiz Show, $31 million budget, made $52 million.

Roger Ebert, three and a half stars.

And I got to say, I've read, you know, we've done this Roger Ebert segment for a while, and I always read the review and I try to pull like a thing out of it.

I thought this was one of the best reviews I ever read from him.

I'll actually, I'll tweet it from the Rewatchables Twitter account.

It's just great because it's kind of less about the movie and more about what the movie's about, which he didn't really do always.

He would, you know, he would do like the traditional movie reviews, and then sometimes he would get set off on

a tangent.

But he said the screenplay was smart and subtle and ruthless.

It's careful to place blame where it belongs.

But I really like this part.

There's a theological belief that it is a greater sin to tempt than to be tempted.

And this movie firmly reminds us of that.

Now take stock of what we've lost in the four decades since 21 came crashing down.

We have lost a respect for intelligence.

We reward people for whatever they happen to have learned instead of feeling they might learn more.

We have forgotten that the end does not justify the means, especially when the end is a high TV rating or any other kind of popular success.

And we have lost a certain innocent idealism.

Raj.

Fucking cooking.

Nails it.

Like he really, I think he really liked what this movie was about and had a couple small flaws with it, but

yeah, he nailed it.

We're going to take a break and we're going to do the most re-watchable scene.

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All right, most rewatchable scene.

Stemple's first scene and the way they frame that quiz show.

My only question is, would you go for the actual first scene when Rob Morrow's buying the Chrysler?

It's an amazing.

That's an incredible scene.

Walk me through the case for it.

I can, though I do think it's ruined by the end of it.

The button of that scene is the one moment that for me is like too obvious, you know, when the Sputnik thing.

But right up until there, it's like as good.

It's Mad Men.

It's like an episode of Mad Men in this little tiny sliver 20 years before Mad Men.

It's incredible.

And it tells you everything about the era and about the guy that we're talking.

I mean, it sets up for later when he's like, too rich for my blood.

It's like...

It's a perfect setup for who this character is.

And it's a setup for America and where America was and what a car meant.

But then the end of it, when they bring in this idea of Sputnik, it's the one, it is to me, the only moment in the whole movie that tries too hard is that moment.

But it doesn't ruin it for me.

And

I have another argument for most rewatchable scene, but go ahead.

You tell me what's the most rewatchable to you.

I wrote down, I have nine.

Okay, go.

Stempel's first scene, Herbie's dead.

But just like going, going into an actual

50s.

game show the way they did and and the the little phone boost you're watching it from the prism now i'm like oh I'm thinking, could this work?

Would this exact idea work in 2025?

You're thinking a whole bunch of things.

The Van Dorin interview, where Azaria is like, I got the guy, I got the guy, I got the guy.

And

they do the little cat and mouse game with him.

And it's unclear if he took the bait or not.

It's just

really strong stuff.

And I agree with you on the Pamer Azaria comedy team thing.

It's funny.

Totoro flipping out when Pamer tells him to lose.

For 70 grand herb, you can afford to be

humiliated.

Van Doren beating Stemple

and

you know he knows the answer.

You don't know if he's going to flip and then just say, fuck it.

I'm saying Marty, what are they going to do?

And then it goes to

Van Doren and they give him the question that they gave him in the audition.

They said he wouldn't do it.

Yeah.

And you know what's great about this?

I love movies with a what would you do moment oh that's great yeah where you're in and you're like all right what would i do because you like to think like well i'd be idealistic i wouldn't

i i would be like get the you know i'd be like i'm not participating this i told you i didn't want to do it this way and you guys tried to me so i'm out

um but then you start thinking about oh this is one of the 20 biggest shows on tv oh there's money at stake and you just sell your principles not even

all that for sure but also that other behavioral economic stuff of everyone going along with it and can you be the one lone voice like can imagine trying to get out of your things oh i heard this question before like you know how hard it would be to say those words though the movie does such a good job because when they build to the big scene and

when van dorn's like throw in the money throw in the whole thing would you do it and and rob maur just goes no

and right and he goes but i would but you believe mauro wouldn't.

I do when I'm watching the movie.

I believe Rob Mauro.

I believe it too.

I think the right answer would have been to say, I think there's been a mistake.

I know the answer to that.

But because of my audition, they asked me that question.

So I think, I think it's an error on your side.

I know the answer, but give me an answer.

But I think I would, when I've rehearsed this in my head, that's exactly what I think I would have said.

But you're right to say it makes us all kind of.

imagine that we would do the right thing, but who really knows?

Well, they say to Pamer afterwards, how'd you know he'd go for it?

What would you do?

Like, he's just like, of course he was going to go for it.

It's human nature.

You're going to go for it.

I wrote down the montage.

I love a good montage.

The things are looking up for Charles Van Doran montage.

Highest ratings ever.

Newspapers.

New apartment.

You know, you always need to.

You know, the creepy montage.

That's the fake shoe tie.

Yeah, yeah.

The fake shoe tie in the back of the car.

Right.

To try to try to wait till the kids get time the girls and everything.

Yeah.

As Herb unravels.

So the chocolate cake scene charlie versus dad which we got to give the big kahuna burger award for best use of food or drink to the chocolate cake unless you want to give it to garathol

a tired for the blood tired blood yeah good for your blood

um van dorn dumps it

stemple's testimony

the tv president lobbying charles including quotes like speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact

dark scene television is a public trust we can't afford even a hint of a scandal.

Just like classic evil 1950s white CEO guy.

Charles confesses to his dad.

Schofield goes to another level on this.

That's an incredible moment.

They gave you the answers.

You got the answers.

And then Charles's statement,

which is really the Nepo baby mantra.

I've stood on the shoulders of life and I've never gotten down in the dirt to build to erect a foundation of my own.

I've flown too high on borrowed wings.

Everything came too easy.

Great stuff.

And then the ending, if you want to throw that in too.

My favorite stretch is

Van Doren beating Stemple through the montage to the untying of the shoe.

Like that whole stretch of the movie, I really enjoy.

Me too.

But I would throw in.

Okay.

For me, my favorite, the thing that I've rewatched so many times

is

the run when they almost become friends.

Like to me, that run when they almost become friends and they meet at the Athenaeum Club and you're brought into that world that goes all the way through that trip to Connecticut when you meet all those people, because that sets the movie up in a way.

And it's like the hunter and the prey, but the hunter's not sure that he wants to pick up the gun and shoot the prey because it's a beautiful gazelle.

And it's like, am I really going to shoot this gazelle?

I don't know.

You know, that moment when, when the father's like, we don't even have a TV.

And then Charlie, his ego is so, you know, Charlie's talking about the money.

And then he gives him that big TV.

And there's something about that sequence of, um, you know, that's a good point.

That's a great scene.

The whole picnic table, rich, rich family in Connecticut scene.

Because I've never seen it.

It's like the kind of thing where, however, I grew up, you know, like.

Yeah, I didn't grow up poor.

I didn't, I grew up fine,

but I never saw that.

You know, I mean, well, it's like when the Kennedys would be at Hyannisport every year, playing touch football on some football field lawn.

It's like, you know, I think maybe part of it is growing up as like a Jewish kid from wherever, even though,

and watching him go to that restaurant and go like, you know, the Reubens, the only totally invented sandwich.

And then he goes, I don't see a lot of Rubens in here.

And it is like.

He's getting to be on the inner sanctum.

He's getting to be in the inner sanctum.

And he has to make this decision.

Do I want to stay in this inner sanctum or do I want to do my job?

And it's one of those, and it's interesting, right?

Because Atanasio does the same thing in Donnie Brasco.

There's something about the outsider coming in, getting a little bit seduced by the world.

And then, am I going to do my job?

Or am I going to, having finally gotten on the inside, hey, I like how this feels on the inside of this world.

It's really cushy and special.

And I feel like I'm part of that.

I don't know that the movie seduces.

For me, the movie seduces you as he's getting seduced and i i think it's so hard to do like we talk about as a screenplay i can't imagine how you write that see those sequences and then that that that emotion just adds up and adds up and and and i think

um i think you just have so many feelings about

because i think from the beginning you kind of hate van doren but then you kind of see van doren in a way through um

through Charlie's eyes and you I I mean through um

Dick Goodwin's eyes and you kind of can't can't hate him because Dick Goodwin's kind of falling in love with him.

I'm with you.

All right, so we disagree on rewatchables.

Will we agree on what's the most 1994 thing about this movie?

Tell me, my nominees are Rob Morrow getting top credit billing over Ray Fiennes.

I did notice that, but I think the answer is just 1994 of Marty Scorsese.

Love it.

Just having him at the exact age he's at

makes me know that it's rooted in like exactly this year.

Oh, while we're there for 1994, though, because I, when you, another way I looked at that 1994 question since the movie's set in the 50s was like, I was like, what's the most 1950s thing about the movie?

What's that?

Gerital.

Well, Gerital for sure, but also the use of the word beatnik to convey the idea that he was gay.

This gay, the gay artist, like a code of town.

And he goes, why?

Because

the Greenwich Village beatnik says it.

And when was the last time anyone said Gentiles and Jews?

Sure.

That's true.

But when did that end?

Like 1972?

I don't even know.

It certainly wasn't

somewhere in our childhoods.

Like someone was like, are we inviting the Gentiles to the bar mitzvah?

And someone else was like, should we let that go?

Let's let it go.

Let's just let that

go and be done.

But wait, I do want to point out.

two other people who are in this movie.

We didn't mention them.

We should.

And this is a good moment because of the time.

So the guy who plays that beatnik, that's based on it for all the changes.

That's a real guy, James Snodgrass.

That guy really did save the answers.

But that's played by this amazing guy named Douglas McGrath, who died a couple of years ago and was a great filmmaker and screenwriter.

He actually wrote Bullets Over Broadway with Woody.

He also wrote the

play, the Carol King play,

and made that movie, Emma.

And he was this, one of the funniest best guys in the world.

He was in Solitary Man, and loved this.

This was a really one of the greatest guys you ever met in your life.

And he died super young, like super tragically, like an out of nowhere heart attack in his like early 50s, but a really special person.

And then Ben Shankman's in the opening scene is like a great actor who's been in a million things, like in Pie and also a lot of episodes, billions.

And he's giving,

he gives Mauro shit at the beginning.

It's just all over the place, these that guy, incredible actors.

What's age the best?

We mentioned the 1950s rich people circles, which I think Ripley still is the pantheon for that.

That's the highest level when we're in like Italy and all over the place with Freddie and Jude Law and the whole crew.

The father-son stuff, we talked about a couple times already, but

the dynamic

and they don't spend a ton of time in scenes with them, but you know the dynamic immediately.

You can tell the weight of the dad, both professionally and like as just a character and just how revered he is.

You can tell how the son

has a lot of stuff going for him on his own, but he's still in the shadow a little bit.

And there's a deference with the dad.

I just think that stuff's really hard to pull off.

You know what else I think aged really great?

Rigged rigged reality shows.

Right?

Rigged reality shows are everywhere you turn.

It's all nobody would care about shows.

Yeah, nobody would even care.

We all just assume that like basically every reality show has some level of riggedness on it and this was the first one and and

you know um

i just think that that idea that uh

you tell people what to say on a supposed reality show um and it might affect the world turns out to be true yeah 50 years later you have you have uh Lauren Conrad and Brody Jenner pretending they're dating for the entire last season of the hills.

And then it ends and they do a wide shot and it's like a Hollywood set in the background.

It's like, wait, was that, did you just fake that entire show?

But yeah, by the 2000s, we were doing this openly.

Yeah, you make a guy a boss of a real estate empire and then he becomes boss of

me.

Do that too.

Moore would say it's the best.

You know, I really liked when kids wanted to be Joe DiMaggio.

That's awesome.

I always just like hearing that in a movie.

It really seems like there was about a 10-year stretch where people were just like, all I want to do is be Joe DiMaggio.

And then it got replaced by Mickey Mano and Willie Mann.

That's all I want to do is be one of these people.

I don't know who that is now.

On your TikTok, because speaking of Forrest Cump, has it come through on any your TikTok or Instagram,

Tom Hanks telling the meeting Joe DiMaggio story?

But isn't it?

It's really for you.

Yeah.

He was in a restaurant.

No, I mean, he was in a restaurant.

Hanks tells it.

I don't know.

I just saw it on TikTok.

It's not.

But Hanks, I've saw Hanks.

It's come up like 10 times recently and I watch it all the way through.

He's in a restaurant and the Maitre D comes up and goes, Mr.

DiMaggio wonders if you'd like to go say hello to him at his table.

And Hanks is like,

runs over to the table and gets to spend 10 minutes with DiMaggio.

And he talks about how easy DiMaggio made it look.

And DiMaggio looks at him and goes, it didn't feel easy in here.

And wow.

Oh, it's, you'll find it.

Hanks telling the story is great.

Wow, that's like the last level of fame when you send somebody over to be like,

Brian koppelman wonders if you'd like to come over and say hi to him at his table and if you're top

amazing joke yeah you're not even of course yeah you're in the middle of some some some friends telling you they're about to get divorced you're like hold on one second it's joe di maggio it's diamagio i gotta go hold on finish that divorce story do you think anyone even a day younger than you understands why he races to Joe DiMaggio's table like we do growing up with Mr.

Coffee and just like the legendary I think we're probably the last I'm probably the last mid-50s, is probably the end of that.

Because I remember in Seinfeld when they had the episode where Joe DiMaggio was at the counter.

Yeah.

That was kind of the tail end of when that joke would have worked.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think he dated played for the Yankees and he's married to Maryland Man, right?

Of course.

No, great.

Unbelievable.

56.

You and I still know 56 games, like, but I don't know if people know that or care.

56 straight hits.

56 hits.

56 straight games with a hit.

I don't know if people like 56 straight games.

One hit a game at least.

Probably the greatest record.

Don't you think you've just known that?

The greatest attainable record ever.

Nobody else has gotten a 45.

But don't you think that's like, we just know that from our fathers?

Like, because I know that from as little as I, I know that my entire life, that statistic from my father.

I'm 59, so I'm a couple years old.

I didn't know that my whole life.

Well, we had the signature statistics that you just knew by heart.

I don't know if there there tons of them because there wasn't, we had to, no, we had to memorize them because we couldn't just go look them up.

True.

Good point.

We had to do that.

You only had like a book.

Yeah.

Like Marist.

Like, I don't even know if kids know Marist now.

Like, I don't know if they know, even with the movie.

I don't know if they know.

They shouldn't.

No one says they have to either.

But, you know, I knew what Bob, I mean, I knew Bob McAdoo's, I knew what Bob McAdoo's,

what his average was when he at Buffalo, when he won the scoring title.

You know, that was the whole point of the baseball basketball cards was they had the stats on the back.

I was like, oh,

um,

quick more, what's age the best, Levinson and Score Says that we mentioned.

The actual YouTube clip of the entire show,

which I sent to you when Stempel throws the show with Marty, it's on YouTube.

You can watch the whole thing, and it's kind of amazing to watch him blow the answer and not be quite a good enough actor to pull it off, but nobody knew any better at the time.

But you can really see him intentionally doing it.

I'm not doing screenwriting, man.

Because as you know, that wasn't really the climactic moment of that episode.

No, they it kept going and going.

But Paul Atanasio clearly realized, okay, that's drama.

I can make a lot of drama out of that.

And he did it.

Really great stuff.

Still need, still need him to write that script about the 94 finals.

What's age of best?

Gerital,

America's number one tonic.

Just how I'm the president Gerital was.

It's just so funny as we get older and these things that were huge for us once upon a time, like Kodak, Geritol, and these things just go away.

And it makes you think, like, what are the things now that 20 years from now, be like, yeah, Instagram is just gone.

Just got sold for $5.

Well, there were so many of those things, Bill.

Like

Bear Aspirin, and then there was that other one, Anison.

Anison, yeah.

I haven't thought of that in 25 years till you just

Folger's Coffee.

Does Folger's coffee still exist folger's they still yeah they still make jingles and but but like bear anison was like as much as there was bear every bear head it would be like bear and anison now where'd anison go what happened

how about woolworths yeah we had on the east coast we had calders like the caldors whatever it's called um

van dorren's dad

at one point in this movie does the they're talking about poker and he does the if you can't spot the sucker at the table you are the sucker routine i was like rounders compliment.

That was your homage.

You grabbed it.

Well, it's an incredible

casually.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Every time I see it in the movie, I'm like,

I know that consciously, I remember when Dave and I wrote the line, we definitely weren't calling it to ourselves, but of course, that's the way this all works.

And we definitely heard the line in that movie because we'd seen the movie more than once.

I loved it.

But I also love when Mauro goes, well, I don't know if I'm a gambler, but I know which end of an ace is up.

Right.

Same scene.

Great shot, Gordo.

What do you have?

Most cinematic shot?

Yeah, I don't know.

That was the one, probably the thing you already said, like that whole opening sequence where those moving camera shots throughout that whole thing where you feel like you're being just, it's really editing, but it is cinematography too, where the camera's moving you all around

NBC and the game show thing.

And it's kind of amazing, you know.

I agree with you.

I think it's multiple moments in that first scene.

Chess Rock World, Brock Landers Award, Best Character Name.

Charles Van Doren.

How is that a real name?

Incredible.

It's like, how can we come up with the waspiest, incredible, most powerful sounding name ever?

How about Charles Van Doren?

The Butch's Girlfriend Award for week link of the film.

I mentioned this already, but this is really from a rewatchable standpoint.

Just Herbs Temple, just a tough hang.

If you're going to watch, you're one of the only people who have probably watched this movie 50 times, but

Herbs a lot.

I can't get craig's a lot craig will you come in for a second

yeah

herbs a lot

herb is a lot but herb is is you know the little man he's all of us we all are all we are all herb you know

yeah just as great

okay oh i think like craig liked this movie all right craig we'll bring you back in a second What's age the worst?

We mentioned Morrow's Boston accent.

Oh, did you have a week link, by the way?

You love this movie.

You probably didn't.

All right.

I don't remember.

What's age of the worst?

Morrow's Boston accent mentioned an Alzheimer.

Geritol being important.

So this sent me down a gerital rabbit hole to what happened to Geritol.

Yeah.

They started in 1959 started getting investigated by the FTC

because they were pushing it.

Was it a year right after?

You mean like right after this?

Like right as this was happening.

Yeah.

It was a tough time.

So they were basically saying like it was a remedy for tiredness and it made your blood stronger.

But what they found out was it really was only effective for people with anemia.

So then they had to disclose most people with fatigue do not have iron deficiency, would not benefit from gerital.

Tough one.

Then they had a little comeback in 1972 with the ad, which I know you remember, where the guy looks at the camera and he's talking about his wife and he goes, my wife, I think I'll keep her.

And all the everybody got pissed off and it was a controversial ad, but it actually worked.

And they had a run basically until 1979.

It finally ended now geritals

but yeah that's it nice little 25 year run for geritol selling basically a shaman product it was like a fake product snake oil

it really was drake

your blood will be better i mean that's what scorses he's saying in the movie when he goes uh i mean i sell gerital and it's incredible

and then uh

in the in the actual game show cover-up

i had this as a what's age the worst that kind of with quiz shows and game shows for a while.

Like they really went into a major slump and then came back during my childhood in the 70s.

Ironically, one of the ones was Joker's Wild, which Jack Berry was the host of.

But

there was so much,

so much scrutiny on how they did these shows and all these laws changed and they just became harder to do.

So it fucked it up.

It wasn't the only show.

All right, the historical accuracy stuff while we're on WhatsApp the Worst.

They took three years of the scandal, compressed it into one.

They

made it Van Durin's choice to incorrectly answer question his own choice, but it was actually NBC's.

The score stuff was 21, 21.

And then it just, the game kept going.

They made it seem like it didn't when he took the title.

Goodwin's, there's a lot of stuff about Goodwin's role in the investigation, which was less important than how the movie made it.

That was where it got criticized, especially this is right around the time they started going after each other with Oscar movies and PR campaigns.

Yeah.

And they really played up how kind of this was, you know, the word was used was dishonest.

I don't know if it was dishonest, but they really,

I mean, just one of the most, I mean, a guy was a speechwriter for JFK, right there with Robert Kennedy, Doris Kearns, Goodwin's husband.

And she wrote this amazing memoir about him.

I mean, Dick Goodwin was an incredible figure of the last century.

But there was way more people that I think were doing the investment

than just him.

So that was the issue.

I went down the big rabbit hole on on this.

And yeah, there were there were a bunch of dudes who actually did the legwork before Dick Goodwin got in there.

He got even in there.

And then the only other big one was that Van Doren did teach after

the scandal.

And he, it was the one issue he had with the movie where he was like, dude, I kept teaching.

Like, I don't know why you put that in the credits.

So.

Yeah, he wrote this article in the New Yorker.

I read it this morning.

Like in 2008, Van Doren wrote this long article.

And if you read it, like if you're, if you're listening to this and you you watch the movie, it's funny because he's trying to, it's one of those things where it's a guy writing to try to kind of defend himself, but you come away from the, from that article and you think, yeah, he'd do the same thing again.

Like he had a huge ego and he wanted fame and money and power.

And like, you can feel that he wouldn't have done much different, I don't think.

I think you should have changed your name to Brian Van Koppelman.

You're right.

Is it too late?

Like better screenwriter name.

Then you're like BVP.

Like

I don't know.

Call me BVP anytime you want.

It's fine.

We have,

we're on the next category.

Oh, the CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award.

You probably don't have a hottest take, but I have one for both of us.

Go.

You give me the hot take.

I have one, but you go for it.

Go ahead.

Oh, you go.

I just think

Rob Mauro should have become one of the world's biggest movie stars after this movie, like the alternate reality.

I don't understand it.

I don't know why he didn't just get cast in the next.

Why wasn't he the lead of fucking Jurassic Park or the next whatever?

I think I might have an answer.

Go ahead.

I think there was a glut of really good actors under 40 that he would have had to compete with parts for.

And if you just put him in a time machine 20 years later, he's probably better off.

Like, think all the people from that decade.

Yeah, you look like that.

I mean, you just rattled off all the guys who came.

I I think you just said it to me.

It's like all the guys who came after because you just mentioned Matt and Ben, but you didn't even mention that.

I had another one.

I didn't.

Well, Jude, I had her recasting couch, director of City.

What about young Russell Crowe and the Rob Morrow part?

Right.

He would have, he would have killed it.

Like, we just had too many people in the 90s, and I think he got lost in the

Philip Seymour Hoffman.

Right.

I mean, Wahlberg's in there too, and Affleck, and you just, Hanks is in his peak at that point.

And, you know, it just goes on and on.

So I think that might.

And then clooney comes out of nowhere and val kilmer's there you just it's like an embarrassment of riches and i i don't really know it's i've talked about this before it's almost like one of those nba stretches like in the early 90s when we just had hall of famers all over the place it's like jesus

you're right i think that's a real and also moral was on tv but i think you're you're right i but when i look at what he does in that movie um and maybe it is as simple as the accent that some people didn't like it and other people popped but uh i look at it i'm like, man, like I should have been a movie star.

I agree with you.

And I'm sure he agrees.

My hottest take is this.

If this movie comes out one year later, it wins best film and best director.

Wow.

What's the next year's movies, remind me?

Braveheart and Mel Gibson win in 95.

And I think it beats both of those.

And I think it would honestly have a pretty good case in 96 against English patient, English Patient, which won movie director as well.

I just think it was bad luck we're coming out this year, and especially with Redford.

And

there might have been a tiny bit of Redford fatigue too at this point because he had

made his movie come back.

He'd done sneakers, he'd done Indecent Proposal, he'd done River Runs Through It.

He was doing Sundance

and now Quiz Show.

And

I don't know if he had spaced it out two years, maybe.

Casting what ifs.

Redford won an American

for Van Doren.

Couldn't find anybody.

Kind of honed in on William Baldwin for a second.

Couldn't get there and settled on Ray Fience.

William Baldwin got a lot of calls back then.

This one killed me.

Turned down the role of Mark Van Doren.

Paul Newman.

Oh.

It's a Paul Newman role, leaving the Connecticut of it all, right?

Yeah.

But it ends up being Schofield, and it's really like one of the Schofield's great.

I just, as a Newman-Redford, um, of course, aficionado of that relationship, which we've talked about in other rewatchables, that would have been really fun if, if Newman was the dad.

I don't know if he would.

Why did he turn it down?

Did they say?

Did they have an answer?

Didn't say.

All right.

And then Levinson was apparently originally attached to the project as a director.

Couldn't do it because he was doing Bugsy.

And then Redford just brought him in anyway.

Then there's stuff online about Steven Soderbergh allegedly with Tim Robbins as Charles Van Dorn.

I don't know.

It didn't pass the sniff test to me.

No, it's that's a

true or not true?

That's true.

Okay.

Why do you seem like you don't want to talk about it?

Is that your guy?

Robbins?

No, I mean Robbins is the lead guy.

I believe I will say that

I am not sure about the Tim Robbins part of that, but i i'm i do think that what you just brought up about uh who was supposed to do that movie is true and it would have been incredible if soderberg directed it it would have been incredible well they were trying to make it for the early part of the 90s so they probably went to a couple people and then finally redford wanted to do it and that was that they asked charles van doren if he would be a consultant and offer him a hundred thousand dollars and he said no

His wife, that's in this New Yorker article, his wife said she'd leave him if he said if he did it or something like that.

the ruffalo handed rubinic partridge over acting award um

terturo dies it all dials it up a couple times i'm just not a criticism but if we're going for the over acting i i you know he dials it up uh best that guy award david paymer not eligible

i have one but i want to know what you think it is it has to be that guy it can't be we

like

normal people can't know his name so who is it there's a couple people at the poker game game that i thought jumped out at me jack gilpin

is at the poker game uh buzzfields at the poker no you got to give to hank is area because at the time i think a lot of people like you got to give it to hank hank is so great so your case is hank was

that guy at the time he wasn't

hank as famous yet like he is now he'd you know barely done like he when did he come he came out two years later right heats heats a year later yeah he's like a simpson voice that's it nobody knows what he looks like and and he's so good in the movie like he's so different than any other movie he's in you just kind of believe he's that guy and he does all that like when he walks in and he's like

he's i think that their comic timing together is amazing but but we're gonna have a minute to talk about payer right and about that like scene with payer and still right now well for me that's the other like not the most re-watchable scene, but in a way, maybe the best scene other than these couple we've mentioned is when Rob Morrow

tells Pamer the acting performance that Pamer does when he's blowing him off, blowing him off.

You know, you're a very, you know,

like, you know, whatever young man, like, and then

he goes, yeah, the thing is, he sent the answers to himself, registered mail.

And like, everything changes on David Pamer's face.

And he just goes, he goes to sit down.

Why would he do that?

And then he sits down.

And

then

he says,

I'll never roll over on NBC.

You know, if they knew and they didn't know, I'd never get back.

And it's like that moment when you started with television is going to get us.

You know, that's the moment where Rob Morrow goes, I don't think you'll be working in the business again.

And Pamber's like, no,

if I tell them,

if I rat out NBC, I'll never work in the business again.

But he knew if he kept his mouth shut and he goes, television's all I know.

It's my whole life.

And he, I don't know, there's something so, he's such a villain and such a scumbag, the character, Dan Enright, the character he plays.

And in that moment, though, you understand

he has some kind of code and he's not going to rat on these guys.

And he somehow knows to Rob Morrow, like, hey, dude, you don't understand American business the way I do.

And what I know about American business is if I just keep my mouth shut and

American business will reward me for it.

And then, you know, years later, that guy gets super rich.

He creates Joker Was Wild with Jack Berry, like you said.

And those guys are on television for another 25 years.

Right.

He's really good in this movie my answer for best that guy

controversial it's barry levinson love it okay fine because if if you don't know what a director looks like which is basically the entire country except for like a very select few you see him in this movie and it's like oh it's a guy from the end of rain man right because that was the other movie he was in right where he plays rayman yeah would you rather go would you rather the doctor would you rather live with your brother or go back to go back to over overbrook whatever it's called live with would you rather go to sunnybrook or live with your brother would you want to live with your sunnybrook with your brother and he's just like and cruise is like all right that's enough that's enough but yeah those are his two movies i do love when directors are in movies it's the best well you've had you've dabbled i'm in yeah i mean sure yes i'm yes obviously i i i'm i'm in stuff i love being i'm gonna put you in my movie i'm gonna cast you in my movie that i haven't

i'm in uh i had deon waiter's award clearly it's hankazaria love it he's not in the movie that much.

Every time he's in, he's thrown 98 miles an hour.

I thought he was the winner.

And then I mentioned recasting couch.

Young Russell Crowe would have been really interesting in this.

That's catching him at a really cool point in his career where nothing's really happened yet.

I think he's the right age.

Anyway, we'll take one more break and then we got a flex category from Craig.

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All right, Craig's here.

He's got a flex category.

What do you got?

I don't know if this is a full Sasha Jenkins Award for the the actor.

You can't believe they didn't become a bigger star, but it's a mini version of that.

And I just want to shout out Christopher McDonald, who plays Jack Berry, who I just think is great every time I've seen him in a movie.

He's obviously shooter McGavin and he almost kind of got typecasted as that.

But I just love him.

I think he's got great timing.

He's so slick.

He's good looking.

He can kind of do a lot.

He's got a great sense of humor.

I feel like maybe you guys can tell me he was a bigger star than I thought, but I feel like he never really became a thing.

He was not a bigger star than you thought.

I don't really understand it.

It feels like he just should have been on some hit sitcom for like seven years, just crushing it.

Like the brother on everybody loves Raymond or something on top of doing all those movie things.

One notch.

And I think he's gotten this belated run, though, I think.

One notch too handsome to be a character actor.

Yeah.

Not quite a leading man and falls in this tweener.

Tweener where he's neither, but he's great.

I agree with you, great all the time.

Note perfect.

It's a great call, Craig.

But I think it's because he doesn't feel like, he doesn't feel like a character actor, but he is.

And he's not quite a leading man because there's something so almost slick and smooth.

Yeah, a little small.

And so it's kind of like, yeah, it just, he is just sort of in.

But it's a game show.

You know why?

He looks like a game show host.

So he's really well cast shouting out this movie.

Bonnie Timmerman.

I mean, he's so good.

That scene where Goodwin.

One of my favorite scenes is when Goodwin discovers the tell in the episode.

Oh, yeah.

When he's watching the old tapes and he sees Jack Berry like stumble and get and the script is wrong, uh, McDonald is so good in that.

He's so natural, the double take he does.

He's like, Yeah, with James Sodgrass, in that James Snodgrass moment when he

gave the answers to himself, totally, man.

I just also love those scenes in movies when it, like, when one person notices something on the tape, like, even it's like Joaquin Phoenix and signs when he lean, when he sees the alien.

Anytime somebody like sees something on tape, amazing scene.

Anyway, blue chips.

Yes, oh man, not Tony.

Not Tony.

Tony's, Tony's a good kid.

The best moment.

He's a good kid.

Oh, how about an air?

It's like an air when he's like, you're looking at it wrong.

And he keeps pointing to Jordan.

Yeah.

Right.

An air.

Look at him.

He's about to take the biggest shot of his life.

Yeah.

I'm really glad we got to give out the Sasha Jenkins award.

I don't feel like we give that out enough.

Can you remind me what that's from?

It's from Dazed and Confused.

He's Don Dawson, the guy with the overalls.

Oh.

And if you only watch Dazed and Confused, you would think Sasha Jenkins became one of the 10 biggest stars in the world.

That's right.

He's hilarious.

He's good looking.

Like he's like a funny Tim Riggins.

And that's Chris McDonald's way more, just to your point about whether he's a bigger star, I mean, way more famous because shooter McGavin in this movie are these cultural things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm saying he's way more famous than Sasha Jenkins.

Yeah, it's weird.

It worked out for him correctly.

He's also really good in dirty work with uh Norman McDonald, which we've done.

Norman, yeah, yeah.

All right, Craig, we'll see you at the end.

Half-Fast Center research.

We've done a few of these.

Charles Van Doren drove a red Mercedes-Benz

300 SL Roadster, which is now worth

seven figures easy, if you can find one.

21 ran for three seasons, peaked at number 21 in the ratings, canceled in 1959, revived in 2000 with Maury Povich.

I have no recollection of this.

Me neither.

Do you remember that?

No.

Maury Povich hosted 21, literally.

In the 90s, mid-90s, you and I weren't watching game shows.

No, probably not.

And then you mentioned Barry and Enright go in exile.

Enright moves to Canada.

Barry doesn't host another national show for over a decade.

They come back with Joker's Wild in the early 70s.

One of the many things I credit to the fact that I love to gamble, Joker's Wild.

Yes.

Fantastic show.

That and Card Shark is two of my favorites.

In the early 70s, we were watching game shows.

Oh, yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

That was like one of our only connections to celebrities.

We would come home from school and just watch game shows.

Yeah.

Like, yes.

Yes.

Joker's Wild was tremendous and it made them very rich.

Apex Mountain.

Redford directed movies.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

I mean, for me, but River runs, a lot of people would say River runs through it, right?

I would say ordinary people still.

Okay.

I think that movie is amazing.

I mean, for me, this obviously, but I can't argue with that.

It won the best picture.

So how am I going to argue with it?

Mary Tyler Moore is such a monster.

I just watched, it was on.

I watched the last hour of it.

Don't ask me why a couple of weeks ago.

She's such a monster in that movie.

It's like her and Jack Torrance in the shining, and they're like worse than Michael Myers and Jason.

Did you wait?

Did you cry?

Did you cry just watching The Last Hour?

Yeah, awesome.

I got a little choked up.

I gotta be honest.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Um, I never cry when I watch stuff.

Like the last episode of Task, there's a really sad scene in it, and I think it would have gotten me like 20 years ago, and it didn't

100% get me.

No, I just like really hard to make me uh get choked up.

You get choked up when you watch stuff, yeah.

But it depends.

I got to be red.

Yes.

It can.

Yeah.

Yes.

I could still, yeah.

Something great.

Like if something's great, it can still get me.

Like, but

yeah, we have our defenses are more up now because you get a little older, it costs you more after you go through something like that.

Right.

True.

Ray finds,

it's probably English patient.

But it's right around here because he made Strange Days a year after, which is one of the many hilarious like hacking movies from the mid-90s um

and no i mean but amon goth is not no amon goth is his high point right and schindler's yeah but it's more like the i always have to explain apex mountain it's when did he have the juice where you could where he that he could have done whatever movie he wanted it's it's right around here right because

English Patience 96.

This is late 94.

So it's somewhere in this mix.

Paul Schofield, the answer is no.

1960s would be for him.

Jack Berry.

I don't know.

I mean, everybody watched TV in 1958.

I can't imagine he was more famous than right here.

No, your Ray Fiennes answer is really good.

I like your answer.

Chris McDonald,

probably Happy Gilmore.

Gerital, definitely.

Because it all comes crashing down in 1959.

The Habsburg lip

which gets mentioned as when uh ray fiance is throwing it had you did you know what a habsburg lip was no

and there's a jaw too i did google deep dive knew i didn't know about all this inbreeding with this one royal family and it made their jaws kind of structure this and it look like this

uh

primo carnera maybe primo carnera primo carnera might be might be that maybe that moment yeah nepo babies probably not

No.

Quiz Show Movies, yes, because I can't think of a better quiz show movie.

Turturo, no.

Horrific Boston accents in a movie.

It's bad, but I'm not going to say it's the worst.

Okay, how about cigars in a movie?

Nah, there's been better cigars.

I guess Sorvino was before.

Yeah, Sorvino, and I guess Sorvino.

Here's my big one.

Rob Morrow, who's still on Northern Exposure at this point when this movie comes out.

And yet it's not his Apex Mountain because his Apex Mountain was in 1992 as Northern Exposure was exploding.

And he hosted Saturday Night Live with musical guest Nirvana.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's it.

That's like the definition of Apex Mountain.

It was their first appearance.

It's pretty good.

And that's pretty good, Bill.

He's still in the TikTok, Instagram.

He's like, ladies and gentlemen, Nirvana.

And then they just kick it as

smells smells like teen spirit

cruise or hanks

who do you have cruise no i know cruise cruise for what part

i think cruise as dick goodwin would have been kind of amazing

i think it's cruise and hanks and cruise is yuppie van doren hanks is goodwin But if you think about Cruz in the mode from Rainman, where he's just like a hard, like in this, where he's this like killer guy, like in the beginning of the movie when when he's like they're making fun of him in the all right okay i think he i think he over cruises the movie okay wait craig come on for this i think cruise comes in

he's right in the he's in he made few good men a year before he's still in that cruise over the top i gotta have one or two scenes where i do cruise stuff

And I don't think he pulls it back.

I don't think he had the ability to pull it back enough as Goodwin.

What do you think, Craig?

i think i think he just makes more sense as like the slick east coast wealthy i think he could pull that off as the slick but he never played a guy who read but he never i don't think he i think he chose his role so smart but just so intelligently because

i don't think he plays a guy who

spent all that time in the library that charles van dorn did that's fair he i don't know if he has that bookish appeal maybe i don't know if he could pull that off but so i would say he studies in the firm he studies in the firm but it's like they're making me study, you know, I gotta study.

But you never feel like he's a guy who loves learning for the sake of learning, which is that's the whole thing about these geek, you know, like Van Doren did know.

That's that great moment when Terturo's like, say a number, you know, and then he rattles off.

It's like these people did know an incredible amount of shit.

They were really smart and educated.

They just unfortunately were human.

I was going to go late 80s Hanks as Van Doren.

And he kind of, I think, I can't remember the movie.

Maybe it was Volunteers, where he played like a

wealthy, like

hoity-toity kind of character like this.

But I think he could have done it.

So you say, Craig, you said Hanks or Cruz?

I'll go Hanks.

I've been convinced that it's Hanks.

All right, Hanks wins.

Scorsese or Spielberg?

Ironically, Scorsese is in this.

Who better director?

I'm going to say Spielberg for this.

Compliments.

Wheels turn.

Curtis Hansen.

No, it's Scorsese or Spielberg.

I think Curtis Hansen.

I would say Scorsese.

What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

He would have been the best freaking Charles Van Doren, whoever Charles Van Doren.

It's funny.

I think he could have played either the Azaria or the Paymer part.

I think he absolutely could have played either Van Doren because older Philip Seymour Hoffman easily could have played the dad.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He could have pick a point in his life.

But yeah, I think that Charles Van Doren, like the early version when he was skinnier, like mid-90s, maybe probably could have done it.

I mean, my favorite, probably my favorite actor who ever lived.

So

picking nits.

Oh, yeah.

Why didn't Herb

just take the $69,000 at the start of the show and stop playing?

Oh, I'm sorry.

You and I have the same nit, which is how did the money work?

My nit is how did the money work?

They never explained.

What do you risk?

they keep they keep saying it's like you risk it all if you play again like okay because the real they want me to lose anyway i'll take 70.

did you did you go look this part up i know you do all the internet research i looked it up i know the answers to some of that so what's the answer they had side deals man because it was rigged they had side deals so herb wasn't getting 70 he really was getting like 35k

Like they all made agreements that there was a give back and there was a certain amount they were really getting like appearance fees.

Like someone got 25K to be on the show, Van Doren.

Like they they would pay you certain amounts of money as opposed to the prize money the prize money was another fiction but they never in the movie explain when they go you're risking it and even when we watch that thing 2 000 a point but what does that mean like they don't explain how the money works which today you would have to people would drive you too crazy if you were making the movie you'd have to explain it but the movie works without it but if i had to pick a knit that's my knit too yeah i mean the bigger thing with this movie is

Back then, people actually really did care about what they were learning with the answers.

There's still a Jeopardy audience that really cares about the actual facts and the questions and the things they're answering.

But the society we have now with reality TV, these shows like The Wall or the show where the ball just bounces down and maybe goes into a hole.

It's really about how much money somebody wins and they just get dumber and dumber and dumber for the goal of just winning money.

This was like a completely different era.

100%.

Like Scorsese says, just to make the questions dumber.

He lays it out.

He lays it out in the movie.

It's exactly what happened.

The Reuben sandwich thing, it was another nitpick for me.

I don't, to say only one person ever invented a sandwich is fucking insane.

Of course.

I can invent a sandwich right now.

What about the early sandwich?

Sandwich invented a sandwich?

Right.

It's, and then my last nitpick was not nearly enough cigarette smoking.

And it must be some sort of weird Redford thing.

I think in the 1950s, everybody was smoking four packs a day, including all of the parents of my parents.

Like, I just think every, I think there just should have been cigarette smoke everywhere.

And Redford must have just hated cigarette smoke is my guess.

What do you have for nitpicks?

Anything?

No, I had the money.

Okay.

Sequel.

Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all blackcast or untouchable.

The prestige TV thing would be interesting if you brought in some of the other shows and the weird shit that was going on because there were other shows that were just.

1950s

corrupt television.

You, yeah, was made.

I mean, I guess Maisel touched on some, not the corruption, but in that era of show business.

Yes, you could make a prestige series about this.

I don't know if I'd watch it, but you could do it.

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treyo, Mad Dog Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilfred Brimley

in the firm?

I was thinking Teddy KGB is Herb Stemple.

You want to do it?

I've now

set you up for a Teddy KGB.

Just as simple, saying like, pay me my money instead of pay that man his money about.

No, at the end, I guess he would say about Van Dorin, instead of saying they never leave you alone until they're leaving you alone, he would say, pay that man his money.

Sure.

The man's got alligator blood.

I can't do it.

That's a terrible Russian accent.

Just want to ask her who gets it.

We agree it's a screenplay.

Paul Atanasio, yeah.

Right?

Absolutely.

100%.

Over Redford?

Yeah, Schofield's number two for me.

Unanswerable questions.

What was Geritol?

I already answered it.

It apparently made your blood stronger or something, or you feel fatigue, and this will...

It's basically a caffeine pill.

Mine is, what would Charles Van Doren's life have been like if he never went and got on that game show?

Not

with a real life.

Herbie's life is clear, but if Charles Van Doren

just doesn't,

like if Charles Van Doren says what you just said he should say, if he just says,

I'm not answering that question because I know it already.

You already gave me that question in the audition.

If he says it, what happens to his life, Van Doren?

If he becomes a hero.

Yeah, he becomes president of a university.

He's Larry Summers.

Right.

Could 21, would you watch 21 right now if it came back in 2025?

I think I would not.

Well, if Kimmel's hosting and it's like Millionaire

and it's...

Kimmel's a really good host for game shows.

I mean, a good host in general, but he's a good game show host.

I mean, if Kimmel's hosting, I might give it a whirl.

Okay.

And then we already answered, what would you do if you were in this situation?

We think the answer is

you flip it.

I like to think that I mean, we've listened, we've both been in situations where we've spoken out, even at risk to ourselves.

We've both have done it.

So you just did it to Soderbergh.

You blew his cover.

He was

not.

You said that, and I did not say anything except that he would make a grab and made a great movie.

What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie?

I'd take the painting of the dad.

Same scene.

Same scene.

Same different answer.

I want the silverware box.

You want all the silverware, okay?

The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson.

Speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact.

Pretty true.

My answer would be not till you have a kid of your own.

Best double feature choice?

What do you got?

Brasco.

Oh, I like that.

I was going to say the English patient.

You could just go, you could find it up.

Just double double.

I think Brasco might be better, though, because Brasco is a better answer.

Who won the movie?

I'm going to say Redford, because I think this was the last

really, really

cool thing he directed.

But kind of the end of this

renaissance that we talked about in sneakers, where, you know, he had it in the 70s, obviously.

Then the 80s made that comeback and did the natural and out of Africa.

It was just on the present again.

And then the 90s had this one last run with as a movie star, as a director, with Sundance.

And this is kind of the tale of it.

All right.

Time to bring in Craig.

Can't wait.

I have no idea.

I feel like he liked it.

He seems in a good mood.

I did like it.

I really hadn't heard of this movie.

And probably because it got shadowed by all the other great stuff that came out in 94.

But I love all the movies about.

There are certain movies where the industry looks inward on itself that I think should be required viewing for people who are studying media or film majors or whatever.

Like my double feature would be network or the player, stuff like that.

I love all that type of inward-looking stuff.

What I really enjoyed about this movie was that

like the themes got stronger throughout.

In the beginning, it was a little bit more of just like, oh, there's a game show that's cheating.

And then by the end, the themes are so much bigger than that.

And I really like the ending.

I didn't know how it was going to end.

I obviously knew it was a true story,

but I didn't know what actually happened.

I was really happy it wasn't just the montage of like the tropiness of the the people all going to jail or everybody gets locked up.

And I enjoyed that it was actually the Van Doren confession was commended by everybody.

And all of the themes just resonated much harder the way it ended.

Cause it kind of ends on this icky feeling at the end.

And

I didn't exactly know where it was going.

So I appreciated that.

And I mean, yeah, being tricked by mass media.

nepotism, classism, all this stuff is very resonant today.

So I loved it.

That was great.

It's a good point.

In 2025,

this movie is still awesome to watch because of all the themes that are in the movie.

All of them are still relevant, literally all of them.

I mean, like the advent of television and kind of the idea of what is reality.

I mean, you could even make that parallel to like AI right now, where it's like the advent of AI is also kind of now changing what reality is and everything is under the guise of entertainment.

I, yeah, the only I want to say at the end of this, I agree with everything you're saying, is that if you just Paul Atanasio is the last time, I just want to say, like, i don't know the guy you know i said i spoke to him today but we're not like friends um but that guy i mean co what co-creates house right with david shore so he invents that character which makes total sense that he made these geniuses up and he made that genius up co-creates homicide

uh writes brasco that guy is not nearly as famous as he should be he is one of the titans of screenwriting um and in a way a successor to goldman in lots of ways like he's right up there with scott frank and tony gilroy i think like one of the true greats.

And

this movie and Brasco together are really a very rare accomplishment.

Also,

I think what's aged the worst is 60 million people watching a game show every week.

That's half of the Super Bowl every week.

Bill, did you say it was 20?

Are you sure the highest it ever got in the ratings?

Was like 20 something?

They said 60 in the movie.

60 million.

So nobody's in Bill with 20 million.

No, but it was.

It was the 21st biggest.

Yeah, there were 20 bigger shows.

It's over 60 million.

That's crazy, man.

That's unbelievable.

Unfathomable.

There was nothing else to do.

Like it was radio or TV or you went to a movie.

I mean, bowling, you saw it.

4 million people watched bowling on Saturday afternoons.

Yeah.

Pretty crazy.

Well, that's it for Redford Month.

I know there's one week left in the month, but we do a horror movie every year in the last week of.

I'm dreading that.

Yeah, Craig doesn't like horror movies.

Me, I don't either.

Yeah, I'm trying to convince CR to do Halloween too.

Now that we have the new studio and we have the giant Myers poster in the studio and Myers is right there, I feel like we have to pay homage, but I don't know.

We're still hashing it out.

Anyway, that's coming next week.

Produced by Craig, as always.

Thanks to Ronic and thanks to Gahau as well.

Thanks to Brian Koppelman.

You're almost a member of the 10 Timers Club.

Well, listen, I'm so close.

say you

can't thank you.

I think this is nine.

I think this is the ninth time.

I know.

You got one more.

All right.

Listen, I got to say, I really, I know you did this partially because you knew how much it meant to me.

And it really does.

I love this movie so much.

And I want people to do it.

And Bill, as always, you're a great friend.

Thanks, everyone.

This is a great movie, though.

I'm glad you forced us to do it.

Nick's prediction before we go.

Over under 52 and a half.

Yeah, you called me and you said, oh, you said 52 and a half, right?

I got to go over.

I got to go over.

I love that you guys had Cat at like 16.

Oh, the Ringer 100, yeah.

Yeah.

I had certain, as you know, I had certain issues with the Ringer 100, but

a couple things.

But I love that you guys had both Kat and Jalen

in really nice spots.

Do you have a Steelers prediction for Craig?

The four and two Steelers?

I know,

I know where they are.

Good luck, Craig.

Craig, I think it's a Jets fan.

fan.

It's horrible from a Jets fan.

You know how bad?

I said last week that you should bet the Ravens to win the NFC.

Can you guys explain to me why?

I know this is off subject, but I just want to understand it.

What is the logic that people rarely fire NFL coaches during the season?

I've never understood it.

Can you explain?

I think it's too big of a

hard with how the schedule of the games is.

Right?

It's just a terrible myth.

You're tanking the season.

You're torpedoing the vibe in the locker room.

It's just like, you just blow everything up and then it's like but but when you're 0-6

and there's just no sign of yeah but any possibility dan campbell when he came to the lions i think he started 0-8 or 1 in 10.

aaron has been bringing that up over and over again

dan campbell you culture guys going to be there at the start of the season next year i mean probably not but after that london game i'm i'm a little dubious after the clock management it's hard with the culture guys the culture guys take time and you kind of have to build that up so you really have to find a front office that'll commit to you.

Yeah.

All right.

Craig.

Craig, I think the AFC North comes down to Baltimore and Pittsburgh in week 18.

It's just preordained.

There's no way.

I don't know what their records have to be, but it's just going to come down to that game.

No, it has to be

on Sunday night.

They're both going to be nine and eight or nine and seven, and they will be playing each other.

That's crazy.

All right.

Brian Koppelman, thank you.

Craig Scott, thank you.

We'll see you next week.

Bye, everybody.