E860 Going Deeper with Nick and Sandy - The Ultimatum

how are you nick good good happy to have you thank you appreciate you guys having me on a scale of 1 to 10, are you nervous

to do this? Excited to do this? No.

No, I think that How are you, Nick? Good. Good.
Happy to have you. Thank you.
Appreciate you guys having me.

On a scale of one to 10, are you nervous to do this?

Excited to do this?

No.

No, I think the nerves are through and pass.

Yeah, it was a wild ride.

I mean, it's been some time.

So I think that we're all in different places now.

Well, here we get to finally set the record straight.

We will dig into it.

I can hear it.

I don't know what to expect. I'm excited.
I mean, I didn't know what to expect either. Well, I'm glad you're here, man.
Me too. And I'm glad you're doing better.
It'd be hard to be doing worse, I suppose, than that experience, for sure. Hi.
Welcome. Say hi.
How are you? You're going to be right by now. You're right there.
Hi. How are you you're gonna be right by now right there we love that yay well that's good document this hug we're gonna be fighting soon i'm kidding I know, I know, I know.
I don't blame you. No, no, no.
We don't hate you.

We don't love everything we saw on an edited show. So it's okay.
Neither do I guys. We do not blame y'all.
Hi. How are you? Good.
How are you? Good. Good to see you.
I know. Good to see you.
You okay? Thanks. Oh, all same.
I like you. You dress up for the occasion.
hi hi nick and sandy reunite yes on a scale of one to ten what's your guys anxiety level right now before this it was a 10 right now i feel actually pretty calm okay yeah could have been worse i feel like there's a good energy in here and it's i mean it's nice being you know seeing nick so i feel pretty calm right now we'll see in like five minutes okay when we dig a little deeper yeah yeah i think i mean i think being with humans yeah is a lot easier than being with social media how have you been handling how's our heart yeah how is your heart yeah thank you sandy she's trying to get brownie points before we really get started no i was like waiting for you truly yeah why didn't you yeah we haven't really asked a ton lately but how is your heart it's it's been better it's been better for sure how's your heart nick it's a struggle to um to go through what we went through and then have so many opinions get thrown around that are not based on true life interactions with either of us. When you mean by true life interactions? I think that the show gives a perspective on a moment in time that we were dealing with, which was tremendously difficult.
And as far as my social media experience prior to this, it was pretty much purely based on work. It wasn't personal.
So I never opened my phone to people making comments about myself or Sandy or any of the other people that went through this with us. So it's challenging to not take it personally and kind of ground yourself through the fact that this is through a lens that other people are witnessing and just try to stay truthful with what we know to be.
Are you staying offline though? Are you actually going on and seeing what people think? I would say that in the beginning, I was definitely paying a little bit more attention and I recognized for my mental sanity that, you know, it's not. I can imagine it must also be hard because it's like the one person that you would talk to, you know, who went through this with you and who knows you, you're broken up.
So it's like you can't really talk to that person. So it's like there is no really safe space.
When did you guys film the reunion? About a month ago. About a month ago.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. And that was the last time you guys saw each other in person? Last time I saw him in person.
But I will say we've actually been like good supports for each other through all of this. Nick and I, we would not be sitting here together if we didn't still care about each other and love each other as humans.
And so to your point, Natalie, I actually like we have leaned on each other through this because we it's so weird. I mean, you know, you've been on reality shows like people don't understand unless you've gone through it and then throw in our real life relationship, real life issues that we truly struggled with.
And now they're just like all over the TV for the entire world to judge judge it's a really weird thing to go through and it's hard but i do think that we've shown up for each other throughout this process you know as best as we can because we are broken up right so yeah i mean even though we're broken up i still have so much care and gratitude for the experiences we had prior to the show and there's a reason we we were so connected on so many levels. And I think for me, I'm in a bit of a, I go, I don't want to see or hear anything negative towards her.
I mean, she had her experience. I had my experience, but for me, I feel very protective of her when it comes to people saying things that are way outside of who her actual character is.
It doesn't feel good for me. I think that what a lot of people are seeing is the end of a real relationship.
And the experience provided a rapid departure for the relationship and it wasn't the healthiest way for us to move apart. Well, I don't know know if there's any healthy way to break up certainly went out with a bang you know where's that what is both of yours one biggest regret in terms of your conduct on the show without blaming editing without like just like something that you watched back and you were like did not love that i did that i wish i would have differently.
I can only pick one. You can pick multiple, but I'd love to.
I'm like, there's lots. It's just like, we have a lot of questions, a lot of things we want to cover, but I am curious, you know, before we like lay in or just be like, why the fuck did you guys do this? I'm just curious off the bat if it was more like, I definitely did not love how I handled

myself that way. More of this, less of what the other stuff I was drinking, I would say.
It's pretty clear, I think. It wasn't clear, I'll be honest.
Yeah, it wasn't. Were you drinking a lot of alcohol? Yeah, I wasn't sleeping.
I was having a very difficult time being in my apartment. And it just kind of tallied up and tallied up and tallied up.
And I was far more emotionally volatile or reactive than I would ever want to show up for somebody that I care for, no matter how crazy the experience was. I don't feel that I showed up with my true authentic self.
And I think that's hard to digest in any scenario, especially when you have to watch it on television. Is that something you struggled with beforehand or did it help you through the show? So I've had my ebbs and flows with it.
I think that, um, I recognized through the experience that I needed to take a harder look at it. Um, it had been something that, that came up in our relationship prior and that I would go, you know, I would sometimes feel like I had, had it together.
And then sometimes I would dip back into it. And I, I don't think that I was getting the kind of mental health support and system.
And I wasn't putting the right structure in place for me to not use, you know, things to escape. Well, I mean, when it comes to doing reality TV, if you go into that experience using any substances, a coping mechanism, chances are that will only increase, not decrease because those spaces, they don't have support systems.
It's all about putting you on an emotional island and seeing how you react. That's kind of what all these experiments are.
There is that. What about you? There's a lot.
I normally am not the type of person that's like, oh, I regret something because there are learning lessons through everything truly. And there have been a lot of learning lessons through this, but I can't lie when I say like, there's a lot of things that I would just do differently.
Truly. I think if I can pinpoint one of them, it would probably just be my overall like attitude and kind of my frustrations that I was holding onto towards Nick the process.
And just like me not really considering what he was going through. Because it's very clear to everybody else, of course.
It's very, you know. It did seem like you lacked the appropriate amount of empathy.
Right, right. And I see that now.
And in the moment, you guys, it's so hard to see other people's experience because it's so intense for yourself and it was really really intense and there's a lot of things that happen that we don't see in regards to me and Nick and kind of what we're talking about here that made it just worse and worse and worse and yeah I mean it just I think it just got out of hand, but there's, that's definitely something for me because I truly, I mean, I care about this man so much and our love has never been the issue. Like it's never been a problem for us.
And it really is hard for me to watch because it just looks like I don't give a shit, you know? Um, when really I was just hurting myself. I are you able to elaborate, Nick? Just because to be honest, I felt like, I don't know, were you protected by the edit or not? But watching it back, I mean, as a viewer, it was like, why is Nick apologizing constantly to this woman? Yeah.
And why is, for what appeared to be no reason. I agreed to do this experience.
It's right. Like I signed up.
I signed on the dotted line for us to break up. I was, we were in a place where I think this actually, had it been a healthier setting for both of us, we would have gotten a healthier answer, but probably would have arrived at the same point.
You know, I think we were trying to find the next thing to either bring us absolutely together forever or break up. And I went into it, I would say maybe a little flippant and arrogant that it would be fun.
And we would kind of laugh about the experience and come back in this loving, oh my God, I missed you. And how could we do this? And obviously that didn't go down the way that I thought.
And so I spun out. I was very emotional and being alone through that, I was basically, I would say I was contacting Sandy to the point where it had to be uncomfortable for her to be dealing with that.
I was not in a grounded place. I was texting and calling incessantly and not knowing what to do.
Would I look back now? Should I have left? Maybe. Maybe so at that point.
I was committed to trying to get through the pain to experience our time together. And I look at it and see a very...
I mean, did you say anything like crazy? I'm watching it and being like, I consider myself to be pretty chill and not jealous. And I'm very emotionally regulated.
But if like my girlfriend was living above me with another dude. And again, I'd love your commentary, but it seemingly looked like you were being dismissed constantly.
I don't know how I would handle it. If my girlfriend was telling me to fuck off, kind of, it just seemed like that.
There's just so much that, that you guys, that nobody sees. What are we not seeing? So I was essentially an absent boyfriend moving into the show, right? I was unsure about if we were going to be, if she was going to be able to meet me where I wanted to go.
And that's probably not the, you know, Sandy was in a position in her life where she's excited about LA, kind of like she's immersed in a culture that I've kind of been a part of for a long time and was trying to pull back from. And I think we were,

I've said this multiple times,

but we,

we arrived at the same destination at different times.

And I think that I was pretty cut off from what she needed for me emotionally

moving into the show.

How'd you guys end up on the show?

Because there,

that's another thing that was like hard,

hard to watch.

Cause there was a lot of like you being like,

you brought me here.

Right.

Which was.

He wanted to do it.

Okay.

Did you not want to?

I mean, I was open to doing it.

Like, but I originally said no.

Okay.

I got reached out to and I declined.

I was like, that's not something that I want to do.

Our relationship is not that serious to go into like a marriage proposal.

And cause we were very off and on in our relationship.

And I think that's something to, to note him and I had not been dating for

And that serious to go into like a marriage proposal. And because we were very off and on in our relationship.
And I think that's something to note. Him and I had not been dating for two and a half years.
We had known each other for two and a half years. And we had been actually dating for about nine months before going on the ultimatum.
And within those nine months, we had broken up maybe five, six times. We did not know.
Exactly. So it's very different than being in a solid two and a half year committed relationship.
It's very true. But we had this love that was undeniable and we had loved each other.
We had said we loved each other before we even actually started dating, dating. So we did love each other for like maybe two years or so, but it was very, you know, off and on.
But yeah, I mean, we obviously both agreed to it. And yeah, there were moments where I was just like frustrated where, you know, I'm like, you wanted to do this.
I think that frustration was more so stemming from the overall like attitude that we both kind of had, but mostly him had moving into it was so like unbothered, was very, we were very silly and playful about it. It was not like this serious somber thing where we're like, oh my God, like we're going to break up.
Like he was really chill about it. And almost to the point where it was like a little bit bothering to me because I'm like, okay, is, you know, does this not like freak you out? I just had felt pretty like taken for granted in the relationship.
And so then I think moving into it, the reason why I'm like, you know, what's going on is because all of a sudden it switched because it got real because we didn't know how intense it was going to be. And I think his real heart and like feelings for me showed up like the second we got there.
But you guys have to understand before we got there, it was not like that. But that wasn't because he didn't love me or actually want to be with me.
It was just because he was running from his own things or whatnot. So it was like you were avoidant in the relationship.
And I moved into the experience with that like all over me. And then I was just like, wait, why is this all of a sudden flipped? You know, now that we're here.
No, I can totally see your confusion on that end of I mean, you said multiple times you felt neglected in the relationship. And then, you know, I get your point where it's like now you see her with another man and you're like, hold on.
What the fuck? I want you. I love you.
You know, you always want what you can't have. Why was there so many breakups in your relationship before coming on the ultimatum? I think it has to do with some of the kind of the

emotional turmoil or whatnot that Nick had been going through. And obviously, like you can speak

more to it. But there was just a lot of like instability, I think, in terms of like the

surface level of our dynamic in our lifestyle and our relationship. But in terms of like

Thank you. a lot of like instability, I think, in terms of like the surface level of our dynamic in our lifestyle and our relationship.
But in terms of like underneath that, our actual connection and love for each other, we always like would find a way back to each other because we really, really do love each other. So I think that's something that that wasn't shown a lot of is Sandy and I started as very, very good friends and we did have have a physical connection, but she had come out of a relationship.
I was very much ready to commit. I had been in a point in my life with her where we'd been dating, but I was ready and she wasn't.
And she was very honest about that. But I had to essentially say at this point, I can't continue to be physical with you anymore because I'm not getting the emotional side of you that I'm yearning for.
And he kind of gave me like a mini old tomato. And I did.
And then I started to see somebody else and she came. Wow.
You and I are the same full twist and said, I recognize that I love you. I recognize that I want to be in a relationship with you.
I am here to commit. That relationship that I was in was very easy to depart from.
And we then made a commitment to each other. We'd always had a lot of fun together.
We had a lot of good stuff going. We had a really beautiful relationship.
I think if you look at the cadence of it, me having that need for know, need for, it kind of came full circle for both of us.

Cause I had the initial, like, I can't do this.

You're not getting me what you need.

And maybe I was carrying resentment from that, that I didn't acknowledge.

I think that I was, you know, I don't really feel like I'm a jealous person.

So when she would go out and go to events or parties or whatnot, I would just, you good time, see you later, see you when you get home. It wasn't something that I really wanted to be involved in.
But I did feel when I got to the show that thing that I guess... Listen, I'm sure at some point in my life I've been cheated on.
I don't know. I'm not for certain, but I can just tell, like, I don't know that feeling because I've never specifically seen or felt what it felt like.
And that emotion is really intense. And to see her with JR so quickly have a connection and have it be like, there was, it was obvious that even though there were other people attracted to her and other people that wanted her attention, they were magnets.
And I was very aware of that from day one. We were too.
Yeah. And, uh, that was a more difficult thing to digest than I could have ever anticipated.
Going into the experience, you guys discuss any like rules or or boundaries in terms of how you guys are planning on,

kind of, you didn't know?

None? No. I trusted that there wouldn't be beyond a certain level, but I was also understanding that we were going to be dating other people.
And that I may have a connection, she may have a connection. She had asked me know, about sex, I said, no.
So we kind of knew that that was off limits. What do you mean? How'd you ask it? Were you like, can we fuck? No, we just were kind of, we actually didn't have very many conversations about, um, the experience or the show leading up to it in general, which I think was our problem.
That's crazy. We went into it very like, whatever, we kind of winged it.
And I will say like, I tried to have a lot of conversations with you that you didn't want to have But we did have the conversation around boundaries and we basically said like yeah, no boundaries I mean you asked me specifically if I was bringing condoms Yeah, like if you were gonna have sex with anyone. I said absolutely not.
Yeah, and so that was clear as day like, okay, cool That's we don't have to worry about that. But we did, we were open to doing the experiment, like kissing or whatnot.
That wasn't, me and Nick have had a very like open mind. It just, we're really open-minded humans.
And so that wasn't a crazy concept. It just didn't turn out the way that we had thought.
I guess it was less about, because you're right. Because like, who knows? I mean, sex, who knows, for certain couples, might not need anything.
It was more like, I was just surprised, not only just you guys, but just all the couples. It seemed like not a lot of couples had a conversation about how can we make sure the other person feels respected in this process? Because it definitely doesn't feel like you guys had that conversation about how do we make the other person feel respected in this process given that regardless if it's sex or making out or cut because if you think about the sex what we watched felt like a lot of disrespect in both directions between the two of you and i think that was the most shocking thing for me to watch as a viewer where it was like all these couples kind of fucking hate each other because like for a concept of like you know a premise of and again i appreciate the context you guys offer that maybe you guys weren't as rock solid as uh we were led to believe going in but yeah it was just more like the lack of respect you know regardless of what your guys's individual boundaries or comfort levels with sex or dating or whatever I just yeah i was shocked by jr's ability to act like he owns you in front of nick uh and where that confidence level right came from and and your seeming support of that behavior around nick i think being there like we you know you don't have boundaries whatnot and okay you know you're in these types of experiences there's obviously you know there's kind of rules that they have I don't know if they have that bachelor or not but like with this it's like okay you guys are broken up you're there's no boundaries whatnot and so I think I was really trying to take it for what it was like the whole process and experience and like really dive into all of it And I think with that, I was kind of like delusional a little bit, like not really able to actually see what was going on.
And I, again, I just had so much resentment. I was like, you wanted to do this and now we're doing it and now you're upset.
Did you have to convince her to do it? No. I mean, no, but he was, he, he wanted to do it.
He was all on board. Did you not want to do to do it i didn't want to do it at first and then we went through the process and i was very like if it happens it happens like fine whatever but it's that was not you you that was not discussed that you didn't want to do that no i had i you may have had your own reservations off i had said no i have messages of me literally rejecting and saying no thank you you know like i didn't know that you didn't want to do it if i knew that you didn't want to do it you saying that somebody reached out to me and i was like this is obviously like this is not something that we're gonna do and you wanted to do it and yes we all like we we went through the process and it happened and i'm not saying like that i didn't want to do it i'm just was more so holding kind of resentment because of your overall, like just kind of the attitude moving into it where you're like, Oh, I can't wait to have all my sexy girlfriends and this and that.
And like, you better watch out. It was like very, very playful and joking to the point where I was like, okay, damn.
And then we got there and I think I was playing into it too. And then it was just, then it got way too serious, but I do genuinely like taking sarcasm out of context for a very situation, very like serious conversation is, is a little risky, but I can hear what you're saying.
And I think that we were trying to make light of it together as we always did when we had fun conversations. And I think if you went into this with, you know, a hard nose into the wall and trying to like, there wouldn't be a reason.
I did want it to be a fun experience for us. You're absolutely gorgeous human being.
And like, you are going to have the attention of men, no matter if you're with me or with somebody else. So jealousy is not best served in my situation with or without the show.
Like, what do you mean by that? That she's gorgeous. She's going to get attention from men no matter what.
What's that after? What do you mean by that? So like me being open about it, it doesn't do me any good to try to feed into the idea that I would become jealous. I was just trying to be open-minded that she would have a connection on the show, that I would have a connection on the show.
We learn about ourselves through it and then we get back together and work on the things that we both wanted to have and see where that would end up. The thing is we did a lot of that and we did do a lot of work together after even with our time together.
And even after all the drama and the madness and the things with JR and whatnot, we really did. We were able to come together as a couple again and have some breakthroughs because we recognized that there were some very deep wounds that we triggered in each other and weren't showing up for each other in specific ways.
I wasn't holding space in certain ways. She wasn't holding space in certain ways.
And we had conversations that I was hopeful to have to move forward. Unfortunately, at that point, the relationship had run its course.
And I think that at the very least I can look back and have the, I wouldn't say it's my heart is full that we had those conversations because I had to still deal with all the stuff before, but I am glad at the very least that if there was any reason for me to stay, it was to have those chats, which nobody sees, you know, that's not in. I mean, I get why you wanted to make it to the part where you get back together with your girlfriend for sure i think a scene part that was very hard for me to watch uh was when you came to the door banging on the door and it was like you could hear a broken man who you've known for two and a half years off and on.
And it was you sent J.R. to the door to answer it and to deal with it.
Was that for any particular reason? So, yeah, that is definitely kind of that was a big night. And we're seeing most of none of it and what we're seeing is like i mean it's not that's not exactly like how it went down i had a extraordinary like of all the times i was having a hard time that day was the hardest so but a lot of and i'm not like i have to keep some privacy to my life but something happened that day and it was not to do with our relationship.
And it was a very, very heavy, extremely... Somebody in my life who I've known for 13 years and has been one of the closest people in my life did me about...
I mean, this show is nothing compared to how... And you wanted to talk wanted to talk about it and I had, I had a bad reaction to that.
I went out. Um, I did run into Carly and Lori.
Um, and I was in a bad way and I don't think Sandy quite understood the volume of what was going on because I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't communicating. I was drunk I was irate I was irate at somebody else like and it unfortunately came through like I was because she was already annoyed with me at that point about me continuing to reach out but it's not just like I just want to make it clear it's not just like oh he was reaching out to me you guys like oh he was calling me and texting me how like, you know, how dare my boyfriend call me? It's not what it is.
Trust me, because that is if he ever needed me and he came to me in a conscious, healthy way, just like, babe, I need you. I need to talk.
I would drop everything and go across the country to go get you. And you know that that's not what was happening.
And that's not it's not what we see, but it is a continued pattern and cycle of whatever's going on in there affects his behavior out here. And then you, you mix in alcohol, whatever, and you're not in, it's a, it's not a healthy state of mind.
Like, so what was happening that night, he was irate for a lot of different reasons me i'm sure being one of them just the whole experience and everything like the fact that i'm living with another man and he's by himself i mean that alone is like torturous i 100% it was it was it was honestly ridiculous like that shouldn't have happened we honestly probably should just left y'all were living right? Yeah, we were living above him, like very close corners. I would imagine the point of the show is to trigger you guys.
Of course. And it triggered us to like the breaking point.
You know what I mean? I felt like that was a little much. It just was a lot.
Because no one else was living in that close proximity. We were in close corners.
I don't know how you sleep. So sleep deprivation, emotional feelings, alcohol.
I was not at a good mental place. I think that's pretty clear.
When did you know they were living above you? So I walked out to do like, we do our interviews. And it was one of the nights where Mariah, it's funny because you see it on the edit as if I'm like trying to look at into their door or something.
And, uh, I, I walked out into the courtyard, looked up and, you know, cause we separated during that Mariah and I were having a night where we're painting or doing something. And I walked out so she could do her interview.
I was walked out to the courtyard, sat down, I looked up, I saw J.R. I was like, Oh, oh.
And you see me run inside because I didn't want him to have the visual of me and JR on the balcony together having dinner. I just didn't want him to have that visual.
And I was like, there's no way that this is happening right now. So I ran inside because JR had told me that you were walking around.
I just didn't want you to see us together. At that point, sounds like things, you make up.
At that point, you're just footsteps and time. It's like you start to make us at that point you know sounds like things you make up like at that point you're just going footsteps and it's like you don't you start to make up things that you know are not true and i i don't believe are true because we've had some pretty definitive and honest conversations about that and i think that i believe you and trust that those things did not occur but i think that it felt that way very much.
The volume of that was turned up full tilt in my head. And I was going to bed thinking about- What were you hearing? In my head, I was hearing that they- I mean, I do think that- You were hearing footsteps.
And here's the thing. I moved back into the apartment that he was living in and you can hear- No, that's not what Nick's saying think what you okay whatever the the noises in itself are far for far more removed from and this is also something that i really need to i feel like i need to address is that they did have a very genuine connection i don't think it's it doesn't show obviously it looks like we're like the like not talking about anything and.
You definitely look like you're into each other, for sure. Yeah, definitely you guys are into each other.
So I wasn't like, that wasn't something I was just making up in my head that they were, it's like, she wasn't put off by him. She wasn't unattracted to him.
She was, they were leaning into each other from the jump. And you could see that from the start.
So that's why the whole like, when i found out that they kissed before they even moved

in together i'm like well if that's happening that fast what's next and now they're living above my head but it's like you would hear a bird tweet and be like oh my god that's them kissing type of thing like it was just every noise you heard you just went to the the worst possible idea of what it could be yeah i'm a creative person so i can create i think anyone in that situation would

go insane

I don't think

yeah

I don't think

I mean that's

and that's something

that I a creative person so i can create i think anyone in that situation would would go insane i don't think yeah i don't think i mean that's and that's something that i don't i i could not understand in the moment like i look back and i'm just like girl like come on you know it's like so obvious but i was so obvious just like what nick was going through and just he was alone i'm with jr and it's's like me and JR are super flirty and like I could I could see that. And in the moment, I couldn't because I was so wrapped up in my own experience.
And the things that were happening with with me and Nick before the show, during the show was like overpowering everything. I didn't it had nothing to do with JR, honestly, and it had everything everything to do with me and Nick.
And that's what you're seeing the night that he comes to the apartment. And it's not me being like, first of all, JR is the one that literally was like, no, no, no, you stay back.
I'm getting this door. Because Nick had been calling, like, I had been sobbing on the phone to Nick that night for hours.
You see one thing and hang up. That's, that's a very, very tail end.
And that's not even exactly how it happened. That is after like countless conversations of me begging him like, Hey, please, I'm not in a space to talk right now.
Like, and he was not in the space to talk either. He was, and he wasn't respecting that.
And obviously like, wasn't in a mental, physical state to talk. He was very intoxicated.
Like, if somebody is calling you, it's like, you know how that's going to go down. Sure.
I know because I've been down this road with him many times. I've seen him in that state many times before.
And I've learned to just disengage when that's happening. Me engaging is not going to do us any good.
I don't think anybody is good when they drink. I don't think you've been your best self when you've drank.
I don't think I'm your best. Yeah, no, 100%.
It's like we also have to take ownership of both sides. And I think that's what we've been doing so we can be clear about this and clean.
And I also think it's still very truthful that I was going through watching something. Actually, not even watching it at that point.
Feeling. And that's what I was actually a bit of a...
I was concerned because I thought that I was going to see the show and be like, wow, you had nothing to worry about. And I just...
I don't think that's true. And I think that I did observe, especially from JR's side, him genuinely feeling for her and care for her.
And he seems to be, you know, he seemed to be throughout it very protective of you and very much, you know. I think he knew what I was going through with you.
Like he knew, I mean, of course I was living with him. And so he he would hear me like he knew i was going through it i would be like really upset and so that i do think that he got kind of protective in a way like in a weird way i guess why did he feel like it was his place that's not what i mean he called you his wife okay that he's not being serious i know that it seems that way but like obviously not his wife well obviously i'm just saying and i don't think if we asked jr if he literally thought you were his wife it was just more his attitude the attitude of terms in terms of like what he thought his place was right like again i just kind of go back to i imagine what if nanny and i did an experiment like this where it's just like you know and the listen i think the show is fascinating i love how they are why i love the show so much is like most shows are exploring like individuals pursuing love as opposed to people in your shoes right who you know examine like you know relationships very much like your guys's are i mean your guys's relationship seems to be like this poster board toxic relationship and i even almost mean that in like in a compliment like we've all been part of these relationships watching you guys is like a a window into like my past life like i think anyone who's watching this if if you if you look at not just your guys's relationship but a lot of these relationships it's very easy to see if you're honest with yourself moments of your own vulnerability in these relationships.

But it's more like, again, to me,

it comes down to a respect in terms of,

I could lean into an experiment,

but this is still my girlfriend going in.

And for someone to jump in and assume a role,

and I would believe either,

because JR does seem a bit delusional,

but either he's just assuming that's his role or he feels like he's gotten permission to play that role i get it and i think with um there was disrespect i mean there was disrespect on my end just not like comprehending the whole situation in itself and being like okay wait a minute like no no like that's my real life no. Like, that's my real life boyfriend.
Like, this is like kind of, this is a trial marriage. You know what I mean? Like there are certain things that like, don't talk to him that way in terms of the night that he came to the apartment though.
It is very different. I do want to like say that it was like things kept happening.
And I think J.R. had just seen me so like broken down and upset over it that he was trying to step in.
But I don't know. That was, it was a very weird.

Like. And I think JR had just seen me so like broken down and upset over it that he was trying to step in.
But I don't know. That was it was a very weird thing.
Like why did JR at any point just be like, just go talk to your guy? You know, like what had happened was Nick had told me like, I'm coming to the apartment. And I was like, no, you're not like you will not come to this apartment right now.
I don't want to talk to you. This is not a healthy dynamic.
you're not in the right mental, physical, or emotional state that this is not going to go well if we talk. And he came to the door and JR was like, you're staying back there.
I'm going to the door because JR was pissed because he lives there. And I was like, this is not actually happening right now.
That's why I'm like so uncomfortable laughing because I'm like, this is not real life right now. There's no way that like these men are about to go at it.
And I'm like, I get the discomfort. It was so uncomfortable.
And I have a really bad nervous laugh, like really bad. You guys, I always got in trouble.
I would agree with that. And that can be very difficult.
It's horrible. It's horrible.
And there was nothing funny about that, by the way, like nothing. I was crying two seconds before that.
And then I just, I was more of like J.R. being like, no, you stand back.
And like, he like ran to the door ran to the door I was like this is not happening you know but I just think that there was a lack of respect and knowing what I know now in that moment like I would have dropped everything and been there for him 100% because we're not in a normal situation this isn't just like oh you know he's having a you know breakdown like and we're at home and after the bar. It's like this was different and he really needed me in that moment.
I didn't show up for him and that really hurts me because I've showed up for you so much throughout our relationship. Like I really have and like that sucks, you know, that's like it's really difficult to watch, honestly.
I think you said in that moment that you felt violated and that it was so unfair to you. Why did you feel violated? From his, the things that were happening off camera.
And if we want to talk about it, like, but there was a lot that you guys are not seeing in the relationship and what was going on. I was trying to get her out of there.
I was trying to use everything I could to, you know, shoot. But you weren't just like, it wasn't just like, we need to get the fuck out of here.
Look, it was very unhealthy in terms of the communication and what was going on. I should have loved myself enough in those moments to just leave.
And honestly, I think that I let the more emotional, hopeful, romantic, whatever part get the best of me. And I think that I agreed to do this.
I agreed to do this and I do have to take ownership of that. I also went through something you know that I, I, I honor that Mariah was able to stay stable and sane through it.
Uh, it being there on my own and feeling the feelings that I was feeling it, I wasn't treating myself with the kind of mental clarity and health that I needed to, that I'm working on now. And I do think that Sandy and I are good mirrors for each other to evolve through separate relationships.
And as you said, with the toxicity to it, there was a dynamic in the relationship prior to that. As I said, when we started, she was all very push-pull with me and kind of wanted me when she wanted me, but then wanted to do her own thing.
And I finally set a boundary around that, but then I gave into the boundary and it kind of, it ignited this part of us that was a lot of fun and a lot of, you know, we had an incredible physical chemistry and we always had a hell of a lot of laughs together, but we weren't serving each other in that safe place that clearly I was needing in that time. So I'm curious, I want to describe to you my perception of your guys' relationship based off the show we watch.
And I'm curious what parts of it you think are accurate. Yeah.
This is my perception of your relationship. The show portrays you guys as if throughout the season, it's like you're constantly giving Nick notes on how he's supposed to do this and how he's supposed to do this.
And Nick is constantly apologizing to you for what feels like some things may be valid some things it's just like it almost felt like nick was apologizing because he's like i think i'm just supposed to apologize i don't fucking know but i love this girl and that's kind of how that's the the vibe that the show portrays you guys i do i understand that vibe but i think that it's so interesting what what people don't see is that I was absent moving into this. I wasn't checking in with her.
What do you mean by absent? I was just in my own. I was.
Like literally absent. Like.
Like he wasn't. He wouldn't call me.
He wouldn't text me unless we were together, even when we were together. So you just flat out ignoring her? He couldn't.
I wouldn't say ignoring. He wasn't present with me, you guys.
Like I spent more time with my best best friend and her boyfriend paint the picture for me because like i can be very aloof and i can be very distant and then i can be on a couch now i can be like nick and like nick nick and like i don't hear but eventually now it's like bro but then there's like we know couples where like some people literally like are ignore their partners and and are checking out like no it wasn't ever like i knew it was never well actually I didn't know if it was intentional or I just was like do you I felt like he was pushing me to break up with him because he was not around and um I think he just was in his own head going through his own things it was just naturally like there was kind of a disconnect but I'm very much like I need somebody in front of me.

I'm really big on quality time.

I'm big on physical touch.

It was like he wasn't physically with me.

Like he would go sleep on the couch for like just because he like needs to move around a lot, you know, and I'm like.

Or we would we would do things like with our friends and he would never like he can never make it.

He never want to come.

So I'd be with my best friend and her boyfriend.

And I'm like, where's my boyfriend? You know know so it was actually kind of like an absent boyfriend thing but did you think you'd survive the show I don't know I honestly like I do think that we were at a really rocky point in our relationship and I was like kind of wanting to just give it like give it my all And that's what happened with me going into the experience with JR, whatnot. A lot of stuff happened like that we don't see with Nick and I.
And I almost wanted to just like leave the whole experience. And I was like, I owe it to my relationship to give it my all and be with him.
And the thing is, it's like. We wanted different things.
We just wanted different things. I mean, when it comes down to it, we went to Europe the month before, before we knew we were going to get on the show.
I had a friend's wedding that came up. She came with me.
She wanted to go to Mykonos. And this is something I have to own.
I'm really bad at making choices in the moment. I'm not a good planner.
I get that. I go kind of like off

the cuff. I definitely fly by the seat of my pants.
Like if I'm going to paint, I want to paint all night. Sometimes that takes two nights.
Sometimes I'm not there during the day. And that was, that is, that is who I am.
Like I have to own that. And that can not, that can feel very shitty for a partner.
I'm sure I don't have the same love language as she has. Um, and you know, I, I was trying to work on the physical touch aspect and get there because it just is not something I naturally do.
I think the other type of physical touch for us was intense and wonderful, but just day-to-day hand-holding and things. I somehow just haven't, I never developed that.
I never developed that sort of, I guess, rhythm to how I show up. And she wanted to go to Mykonos, which was after that.
I felt like Mykonos was too much overwhelming, but I agreed to it reluctantly, which I shouldn't have done. And then I put her in a state of limbo where basically I knew in my gut that I didn't want to go, but instead of just me being assertive and saying, I don't want to do that.
And we're not doing that. And if you want to do that, go, I kind of.
You decided to go and be a baby. I didn't want to go but instead of just me being assertive and saying i don't want to do that and we're not doing that and if you want to do that go i kind of you decided to go and be a baby i didn't go no it's yeah i mean that's just the whole thing in itself but that was that was literally like the week before we left for the ultimatum and we came out and it was like one of our biggest fights and it was just this whole thing i'm like in europe by myself with like my friend so you left her she wasn't by herself she was with my, I went, I went, I went there because I wanted to be with you.
We went to a wedding. It doesn't matter.
I don't think that this is like that important, but that was. Well, I mean, you guys are on the same page.
There is that. Yeah.
No, no, no. That's where it comes down to is I guess my question for you is.
Well, it was really important to me. I just didn't know if it's like, I thought it was important for you to stay with me.
relationship there will i mean natalie is a bit younger than me right and so when we got together um we obviously got together because there was a physical attraction and then we were compatible we enjoyed hanging out when we finally were like let's do this and date you know there was an acknowledgement of our age difference there was an acknowledgement of ways in which maybe we're not as compatible as we wanted to be. And then there was like a willingness, at least a recognition on both of our parts, but at least I'll just speak for me as a guy who was like, you know, I'm about to date someone who is going to want to and has the right to want to do things I've already done, is going to want to go to places I may not want to go or that I've already been.
And I can't just not show up, and I can't just say, go do that. I don't feel like doing it.
If I want to be with this person, I have to meet her where she is, and she's going to have to meet me where I'm at. And I'm just curious, as you look back on your relationship with Sandy, like, what changes have you made in that department?

Because your next girl, I don't know, are you still dating that girl or whoever you were dating?

I'm sure that at some point she's going to want to do something you don't want to do.

We're far more on the same page.

I'm just talking about when you're not.

Because as compatible as Natalie and I are, there's always going to be moments where, you know, we're disconnected or she wants to do something where I don't want to do and like it's easy to make a relationship work when you guys agree yeah right like it's when it's when a couple doesn't agree yeah and that happens for any couple i don't care how compatible or how connected you are at some point there's moments of disconnection and how you work through that is kind of what how any relationship makes it or breaks it so i'm i think there were other factors like involved that made it really difficult to be on the same page or make certain decisions and i think that's just kind of what i mean that was for europe that was a big break and it's not just about lifestyle decisions or Mykonos or whatnot. Like who gives a fuck? Honestly, it's more about the behavior and like how you're showing up versus how you're not showing up.
And that's just kind of kind of like we had this weird. I don't want to say role reversal, but I would say that I was far less like my volume was far lower when it came to, you know, I remember you making a comment at some point like, is there anything that upsets you?

Thank you. And I was far less, like my volume was far lower when it came to, you know, I remember you making a comment at some point, like, is there anything that upsets you? Like, and I think that I was, I was, it wasn't that I wasn't upset.
I just, I hadn't gotten to that point where I felt like, I don't know, I didn't feel angry and I didn't feel that it was serving me in our relationship. there was there was a lot of frustration frustration.
Sandy didn't feel like she was getting from me, like the emotions and the volume of whatever she was desiring. And I think that Sandy is a fiery person.
She's got a lot of like passion and artistry in her own way through life. And I think that just comes down to the fact that like, we communicated poorly.
Um, when I wanted, she didn't. When she did, I didn't.
And we just, we kind of reverberated this like this really deep connection through who we, how much we love each other as people, but continuing to kind of see that like, it's probably isn't going to be a forever thing. And I was hopeful that that was going to shift.
And honestly,

when this came up, I was like, let's put ourself in a scenario that really shakes things up and let's see if we can break through this together and find like a new road together. And it just, you know, I think everyone saw that it went the other direction.
That doesn't mean that I need to, resonate in that

negativity anymore. I forgive.

We've had like plenty of conversations i want her to be happy i hope that she ends up with somebody that that she feels you know follows the spirit and the goals that she wants in her life and i think that it's been a really challenging test but i will say through my process after the show and everything that I've done, she has been immensely supportive because I recognize that I was using alcohol and coping through numbing skills that were not healthy. And so I did go to check in and see what I could do for myself to change that behavior because I never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with.
And it's been, it's been hard. You know, it's something that is so socially accepted, especially on the shows like these where everybody's having a drink and people are, you know, moving it around.
Like it's, it's everywhere. And it's really hard to take a step back from yourself, especially when you're feeling like shit and, um, and look at that pattern.
And I think that the one thing I will say is no matter what my frustrations were with her, with the show, with the breakup, she was always consistently supportive with me and me, you know, getting to a better place. There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby.
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point. And I felt like I was living in a kaleidoscope at that point.
This is my person.

This is the person that I came to the show with. She's the person I know the best and people are

having conversations with her and about her as if they are involved with her more than I am.

And at that point, Caleb and I, Caleb stepped in. I said, I got this.
Like, and that's when I kind of started to go towards JR and say, well, listen, I know that Sandy's telling me something. Why don't you tell me what's going on? Why don't you tell me the truth? If this is something that I need to be worried about, or I'm just making this all over my fucking head and I'm losing it for nothing, like come correct also what's your stance and what are you going through with zayna because i know a lot of conversations going on about me and sandy but where are you with zayna and like where is that for your relationship that conversation is obviously not captured but i never had a specific issue nor do i with jr as a human if i was no he's way too cocky i mean this man thinks he like i don't know i don't know i mean he's like everyone is scared of me everyone wants to be me everyone wants to date me which i can't speak to i honestly how do you see jr after watching it back i mean look i jr has this like exterior shell and i kind of talk about it i mean i wish they showed more.
I was like really trying to help him like break that down because him and I actually had a lot of conversation around his past, his childhood, his upbringing, his divorce, like, you know, things that were deep rooted for both of us. And so I feel like I really saw kind of like what's underneath all of there deep down.
And I was kind of like vouching for that, but nobody sees it because that's not how he, that's not what he leads with, obviously. And even with other people.
I mean, honestly, even if I did see that, I don't honestly, like I don't have much patience for the guy or whoever, but maybe I'm more critical of men in that department. But like, I don't care about the guy who can owe it up to the girl he's trying not, you know, to hook up with up with or you know and be soft or whatever uh and then be an asshole to everyone else you know like that doesn't yeah i mean look i i cannot speak for jr and that's his thing no no i don't ask you i'm just curious if you see him differently and were you surprised by things you watched i think in the beginning honestly i'll be real like i couldn't see that because we're not interacting with the other castmates.
You guys like we're not allowed to interact with other castmates. You were literally just with this person.
And so I didn't really see any of that stuff until a little bit later. And as more time went on and his interactions with you and whatnot.
And, you know, it would bother me because I'm I'm a very like social person. I'm very big on, you know, making friends and whatnot and just like being kind to other people.
I know it might not look like that, but I really am. And I was like, why are you like, you know, why do you have a problem with everybody? Like, that's just not how I how I am.
But again, we're in this like weird experiment. You're matched up with somebody.
You got it. You got to pick from some from one of five people there.
And once you're in there, you're in it. And it's like, there's a lot more that you guys just aren't seeing, obviously, in terms of like what we're working on, the conversations that we're having, you know, how we're trying to like show up for each other so that we can show up better for our partners and challenge each other on certain things.
Like, I understand that like doesn't make any sense because you quite literally see zero of that. So like why would anybody think that? But with these really intense experiences, there's a reason it's two months because you want to get the whole experience.
And it's more than just what we're seeing, obviously. There's, you know, because at the end of it, it's like there is a decision for an engagement or whatnot and you really are kind of going through like a trial marriage i don't know i do see things differently just like having a over a year to kind of like process everything having a step away from it and then now like seeing it as a mirror for sure i mean i think especially at the reunion when they showed all of his clips of him continuing to disrespect zayna when it wasn't even like before it even got to you before even yeah before it was even like he picked his trial wife it was right you know telling Aria he was gonna get her pregnant and like right you know I feel like all of those things even the hall pass yeah slip I mean so I mean I'll I'll be honest like there were a lot of things that I didn't see when I was in there because I'm just like fun and flirty and like oh whatever me and Nick go into it we're like we're having fun whatever and then it's like and I and I realized that there was definitely a lot of things where like I just shouldn't have even like gone along with it or I I honestly like I can see it in my face I know I remember certain moments where like I'm like okay can we okay, can we not say that right now? Can we not talk about that? Like, I just would get a little bit uncomfortable, but it's like, then we would instantly talk about, you know, spirituality or our families.
And it was like, okay, cool. Obviously that's not shown, but you know, there were a lot of those, um, comments that were just inappropriate and there was just too much of it, honestly.
And it just okay enough and um yeah i mean and then seeing some of the things that he was saying honestly about me like that i had no idea about were really upsetting to me and i just was like you know the whole like we wants to be with the white girl no strings attached comment like that i like, wow, like that's really interesting because that's not how I was perceiving like our connection or whatnot. And so, yeah, that was, that was upsetting to see.
And had I known certain bits of information, maybe I would have done things differently. You did mention feeling unseen in your relationship with Nick.
I think that's unfortunately a very relatable feeling. Yeah.
So I am sorry that you felt that way in that relationship. You did at the changeover use some big words to describe Nick.
Tormented, attacked. Yeah.
I think we all are just confused. Like, yeah, there's like, what are you talking yeah like why did you feel that way i mean there's a lot of things that have happened in our relationship and through the process where nick's emotional like volatility or instability genuinely just crossed way too many boundaries.
And I think at the changeover, it was right after a big tipping point. And you can see it.
I am so upset. I am clearly so mad.
Nick is apologizing to me. We're like, what the fuck is this about, though? You know, it doesn't really make any sense because why would he be apologizing to her? She's just going through this trial marriage with Jerry.
He's alone. But there's just a lot more that that we can't see.
And honestly, it's just it's like it's it's relationship stuff. And there's things that Nick has struggled with.
I think more than just basically, you know, I would. Yeah, I was drinking and I was texting like crazy and calling like crazy give us some context because i think like i think like i think she felt like i was doing everything in my power to ruin the experience for her not really though i think that's the disconnect is like you clearly didn't handle it well but i don't know if anyone would in that position and i think it's's just more like- But I can also, and I've gotten to this point now where if the relationship was solid, we would have come together.
I think she would have been less upset with the past. She would have been less upset with the contact.
She, I think, was upset at me leading into the show, which bled into the show. And then when I showed up like, oh, my God, I need you.
And she's like, well, dude, you haven't been here. I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
If you were that absent leading up to your relationship. Yeah.
I mean, like, were you giving like, I'm an artist. I need to paint all night and I can't talk.
Yeah. I don't even care about that, though.
I support his art. Like, I'm his biggest supporter of his art.
I don't doubt that. But again, like, again, if you're just like.
Yeah. I don't even care about that though.
I support his art. Like I'm his biggest supporter.
I don't doubt that. But again, like again, or if you're just like.
It's yeah. Running away from having all these very rigid, like I can, I'm available.
I'm not available. I'm available.
I'm not available. Was it like that? There's a lot of instability with it and it takes a toll.
Why'd you stay in that relationship? It was so hard. I don't know.
I really loved him.

I really did.

It's a weird, hard thing.

I still love him.

I care about him tremendously.

Why were you in love with him so much?

I was in love with him because he opened up my eyes to life.

He really did.

He changed my world in the best way.

I'm literally going to gonna get emotional but he like like we just had actually some of the most beautiful moments I've ever had in my life and I don't know it's like we did actually have a really beautiful relationship he opened up my perspective he opened up my heart like I learned I actually grew as a human from loving him. Most people grow through heartbreaks.
I grew through loving him because there were a lot of challenges in there. And there are things that he struggles with in himself and that I really showed up for him a lot of ways.
And I don't know, we just had the best moments together. And I really, yeah, we have a very deep soul connection.
And he's just one of the most amazing humans that I've met. And it's hard because it doesn't mean that he's the right life partner for me or that we're the right life partners for each other.

But I've never had a relationship where it's like we were always so understanding of one another and so like free and just trusting. And it was healthy in a lot of ways until it wasn't, you know, he really like he changed my world.
Like he really he really has. What are you thinking? What do you think feeling feeling i i mean i'm a lot of gratitude for the words and i think that i i don't i don't choose people as partners that i think are not going to be something that i i mean i do lead with my heart and my soul i feel like i felt like there was that soul connection from beginning.
I did feel there was a depth and energy to her and a spirituality that was like, so it resonates through me when I'm with her. But our lifestyles were challenging for me to be, feel safe.
And, uh, what do you mean by that? Uh, she's a big social life. She's, you know, she goes out a lot and I never felt like i was gonna like she was gonna be unfaithful or anything to that degree but i didn't feel like i was you

felt uncomfortable with the environment she was yeah i just felt i felt like it was kind of like

a vacant space that i had you know already seen and i was curious what was filling her cup in that

area but i am different and like that does fill her cup And I think that I have some social anxiety and she has social integration and she's like very comfortable walking into a room with a ton of people. And I am more comfortable in my studio or whatever.
Totally. You know, it's like, and I, it, it, so when it comes up, like, let you go ahead, go do your thing.

It's because it didn't feel like I needed to be a part of it, but I did feel like it is more a part of her life than somebody that I want to be with. And I think that it felt like I was maybe just wanting a slower pace for things.
And, you know, I, I think that I was trying to organically kind of massage her that way. Like, look at how beautiful, like us, a house by the lake and like chill and this.
And she's like, yeah, but you know, what about this place in LA? And I'm like, you know, it's just, we, we would laugh about it. And then the conversation would kind of end and we both kind of like it wouldn't really come to a solution whatsoever.
And that was just I am not in that scene. And it's not to take away from anything that.
But like what I've been working on also is like my people pleasing thing. Right.
So like I'll just say, oh, this is OK. And I'm okay with it.
When maybe I'm really not so okay with it. And I'm not asking for what I need in a relationship.
And not really putting myself first in certain ways. And then resenting.
Or quietly resenting through it. And not just actively being a part of it., it's really wonderful and magical to feel what she just said.
I think that I have had a hard time through this, like knowing that I knew it in my gut, but like, I don't think that that description came within our relationship often. I think you would probably agree.
What do you mean? You describing how much you love me and why you love me and yeah i mean words of affirmation not my thing it's really it's really challenging for me to like really speak up for myself sometimes and say what's on my heart and how i feel about certain things whereas it's really easy for you to do that you know and we do have different ways that we and i was definitely craving that like very much from her and then we have these breakthroughs. Guys just seem completely not compatible.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. At the reunion, they brought out Vanessa and Dave, which I completely could have done without.
You're right. I mean, it was.
Unnecessary. Very unnecessary.
But Vanessa felt like it was her place, which I have zero respect for when someone, especially someone who you knew for about two days maybe, tells you it's time for you to deal with your trauma and to go to therapy and to get the help that you need. Because it's like that's probably not going to help, you know, outing that on a national television show.
So Sandy, how was that for you to hear someone knowing, I imagine, you know, some of the stuff that he's been through in his life? Yeah. Kind of air out, you know, that dirty laundry on TV.
I mean, I was shocked. I couldn't believe like that.
I couldn't believe that she was saying the things that she was because I had no idea that that's was her experience or that she uncovered that. What she was saying, it was like, why are, I felt like she was speaking for me almost.
Like it was like, she was, you know, articulating a lot of things that I very deeply was kind of going through in the relationship that I had been struggling with for years that I haven't really been able to like verbalize or talk about. Right.
Because I was talking about you the whole time. Of course, of course you could no no no but nick it's like of course she knows that that's what your experience is because i'm telling her how much i fucked up yes of course i'm i miss her i can't believe this is happening how you know why no but about it just yeah it just was really it was really surprising i had no idea that like i'm like how do you know i were also communicating after like friends i thought vanessa was a friend she's not it's obvious yeah but i do i do want to say like 15 minute bullshit right there she should have stayed on her couch i do want to say like that it was like a weird thing where i'm like she was almost kind of speaking certain things that i had felt but i had never really spoken up about it was also kind of weird because i'm like wait are you his ex girlfriendgirlfriend or am i you know like so i just it was a little bit interesting where i haven't really felt

comfortable sharing certain things or talking about certain things and she did i don't know

and i you know i think that in some ways like it kind of was describing some things that i had been going through with you. Because I described everything I was going through with you to her, which she knew.
Otherwise, why would she? I just, it was, yeah, it was really interesting that she, yeah. There seems to be something that has happened that y'all don't want to talk about or you aren't ready to share? I mean, I was, I think it's very clear.

I was using alcohol and not on the show, but other things prior to and after.

And I was numbing and I have realized that there's something there and that I need to

take care of that.

And that I was.

And not to diminish that because obviously that substance abuse of any kind, but

Thank you. and that i need to take care of that and that i was and not to diminish diminish that because obviously that substance abuse of any kind but like are we talking like you got drunk and and text too much or did you like say something like you're really fucking sad or you know what i'm saying like i guess that's the i think sandy was referencing you drank and we get it like you medicated's going through a hard time.
You weren't your best self when you were drunk.

I think it's more than just through the experience.

Like, you know, I think there's been patterns

in the relationship and a lot of people

can probably relate to that,

that struggle with, you know, any sort of substance abuse.

There's textbook patterns and things that happen within yourself and around with the people that you love and relationships. And it's really, really hard to navigate.
And it's also hard to be in that from her end and not know necessarily how to support it because her relationship with it was different. Yeah, very different.
She drinks and parties in the way that she parties, and I took it to another place. And I think the numbing thing, it's like just to be with yourself and be with your emotions sober and let that be what it is has been a challenge for me.
And I think that that created a the way I was, I would check out or the way I would speak to her felt like, uh, I don't know. I mean, it's your experience.
I, I, I think my version of it was, I was looking for comfort that I needed to work through, but I was looking for her to answer the question when I need to answer it within myself, trying to pour all of this onto her and say, can you figure out how to figure me out? Right. And like, that's a lot for somebody who's also like not, and I'm not saying that she fell out of love with me at a certain point, but I think that it becomes, I've looked at myself through this and I'm not attracted to what I see.
So I can't imagine that being a safe place or something that she wanted to continue. And like, I think as a friend and as a human, we were always supportive.
But I think that she was recognizing that that wasn't a space that she wanted to be in. I think numbing pain is very relatable.
I've been through a lot of trauma myself. And the way that I numbed it was just lying to myself.
And I'd be like, that actually never happened to me. Like, I don't know who that was, but it wasn't me.
How did you get out of looking at alcohol and other things to numb that and to get to where you are now? I mean, it's every day is a process. You know, I've had, I've had a couple, you know, time for I've gone back.
I did go to recovery. It was traditional, you know, inpatient.
And I felt a lot of community there, which was one of my biggest takeaways that I do tend to isolate when I feel badly. And that, you know, not being vulnerable to need a support system when I needed it.
And again, just looking at Sandy to kind of be the guiding light for what I needed to explore with other people who have been through a similar situation. And I tried, like, I really gave it my all with trying to like be there for you and show up for you.
I would drop everything and go make sure he was okay if he was struggling with certain things.

What about on a day-to-day basis? I mean, countless conversations. Yeah.
I don't know. It's like, how do you really show up and support somebody that's going through, you know? I guess just in general.
How did you guys show up for each other in the relationship when it was good? I mean, we a lot of really really good conversations around really heavy hard topics and you know i think just showing him the love and compassion when he was broken and like do you gave him a safe space to be vulnerable and to be open yeah we were like that's huge i very much, and I never like judged him for any of it. Like I was very much a safe space for you to open up and share all that stuff with me.
And I wanted to help. Like that was naturally like what we want to do as women is just like, you know, have solutions and help and like nurture.
And I was very, very nurturing to him through all of this. And, but also in, in turn, it was, it was hurting me too, you know, cause it's like, I have certain boundaries within myself and, you know, thing after thing would happen.
And then it's like, I, I'm, I'm disrespecting my own boundary by, by staying in it, but I would lie, I would lie about using. Yeah.
Like I think it's like, it's a textbook thing, of course. It's shame and it's guilt.
Is it more than alcohol? Yeah. I mean, I have a tendency.
I've explored a lot of psychedelic therapy. Unfortunately, there's something in the psychedelic therapy world that is also a bit of a two-headed snake and I got pretty into that.
You still feel ashamed of that right now? Yeah. I think the shame is in the lies, right? Because she did come times, um, and say, just as long as you tell me the truth about what's going on, I can, I can be there for you.
But what happens is you feel so guilty about what you're doing that it doesn't, you feel like the rejection is the next thing to come, not support. Um, it's not, it's not sexy to be involved with something that, that pulls you in a direction every time.

I think as I look back and recognize the escapism in it, it's like, what am I not seeing in myself that I need to go chase this feeling through, you know, K or booze and they're disassociatives, right? So that's, I wanted to disassociate, especially when it comes to art. Like sometimes it's easier to just disassociate and, and be free with that.
I don't think it's, I don't think drugs and alcohol or any stranger to people who are artists or, you know, or creative. You know, there's something in that is challenging.
It is, it is challenging to, to be sober and feel okay. But Sandy, did you feel like he chose the drugs and alcohol over you? Yeah.
Every time. When Nick was talking about like the, the difference in lifestyles and the going out, are you single now? Yeah., you are? Yeah.
I guess I'm curious what you think about what he was saying in terms of like just the different lifestyles or where you guys were in your life. And I guess more now, are you like in more in your single era? Cause now you want to go out more and maybe like that kind of going out lifestyles is more conducive to being single or is it more like you want to find someone who also wants to go out? You know, I think, um, just like my social life has always been a big thing for me I'm I'm genuinely love human interaction and making new friends like I just yeah no I love that I just am I'm a social butterfly and so for me going out is really just having fun going out and being with people dancing with your girlfriends whatnot like it energizes me.
i'm an extrovert you know so how do you draw the line between being an extrovert and loving the social aspect going out hanging with your girls versus also being like in a relationship i'm in a relationship and like there's going out and there's like being respectful so i think for me is having a partner that also enjoys to go out to like that we can go socialize with couples and And I don't't need to go out all the time you guys like i genuinely i'm either a homebody or i'm out like it's kind of like one or the other for me but something that's really big for me that i've realized just through relationships i don't know i think what's really what's really big for me that i've realized throughout like through my relationships is i do want a partner that um wants a similar thing you know it's and and they have a social life too that they you know want to be around and um and it's not a like a shameful thing it's not something that i need to like completely get rid of i don't think being in a relationship means like oh well that's it like we're gonna wipe away we're going to wipe away like our social life. That's, you know what I mean? There's a way to do it.
Yeah. We're very social.
I guess it just depends on what. It depends on what totally like, do I need to go to the club with my man? I mean, maybe sometimes if we want to, but not like not all the time.
I think there's just a level of socialization with Nick, for instance, like he's way more introverted. I just have an anti-club direction.

But you wouldn't even want to go out to dinners,

Nick. You wouldn't want to go out to dinners.

You wouldn't want to go hang out with friends.

And we really had the best

time ourselves

hanging out on the couch and having our own

dance party and whatever.

But that's a lifestyle thing

when it's a life partner that you

do want to be aligned with because if not, that's a lifestyle thing when you're when it's a life partner that you do kind of want to be aligned with. Because if not, that's a really big like that's a really big difference.

But yeah, it's not just about like, oh, I want to be single because I want to go out.

No, I'm I'll be single until I find the right person.

I have to ask this.

Did you have sex with J.R.?

No, absolutely not.

I will set the record straight right here, right now. Literally nothing happened past a kiss with me and JR.
I know it looks very bad. It looks a lot worse than it was.
JR was a bit performative when it came to certain things. That's my wife.
Oh, like, you know, hey, girl, what you doing? Hey, babe. He was never calling me babe when the cameras weren't around ever like he was performing a little bit yeah he was he would never call like it was not the vibe but that's why it's it's really difficult for me to like see because i'm like damn i really got you know it really looks a certain way but didn't that bother you that he was planning up for the? You know what? Honestly, I'm very new here.
We're just like normal humans that just got thrown into this, and then there's cameras around. You don't really know how it's all going to look.
Right. And we kind of were like, okay, we're trial.
It's my trial hubby. It's my trial wife, whatnot, and really playing into it.
But there were certain things that he was was playing up and the guy's night for instance with him sick like almost insinuating that like we were sleeping yeah like you know next question are you sleeping together and i in the same bed so i don't know what really happened because i wasn't there but obviously there's editing and whatnot and it's like oh cliffhanger um but jr had told me specifically that he was kind of leaving it open-ended to be like, ooh. And I was like, why the fuck would you do that? Like, that's not something to play around with here.
I'm over here in every interview and every conversation being like, we're not sleeping together. We're not hooking up.
You know, trying to lay that down because I owe that to myself. And I think he was kind of giving into like the drama of it a little bit.
And it really fucked me over. Like, I don't know.
It just, that sucks. That's really hard for me because we didn't like genuinely, you guys, what you see is honestly worse than what it was.
And that is the extent of it, period. And yeah, it's just, it's hard.
Like Nick, you seemed very uncomfortable. A lot of people are talking about it and it's a lot of like two things if I don't think it happened regardless if it did or did it didn't happen I don't think it happened but the perception is that it did that was my perception after speaking with Sandy I believe her I do yeah I trust her I don't really we're not at a point in life where like there's anything but support.
She would have a reason. Yeah.
Like I, I, I, I, you guys, like it's, it's the relationship is like, there is no more of that. It's at this point, like radical honesty with each other about how we can best, you know, figure out what we did wrong in the relationship and move forward.
You know, I'm in a new relationship. It's not that part, that ship has sailed.
But I think that in the experience,

I felt like there was a really heavy connection,

regardless of what that meant,

whether it's holding each other at night or loving on each other or being

intimate or being physical or even emotional,

all of that was unfolding.

And when I watched it,

I was like,

you know,

whoa,

you know,

this is,

this is,

this looks pretty real.

I was too.

I was like, what the fuck? And regardless of if they had sex or not, to me, it looked very real. I do believe that it was a real connection.
And I also believe that it would have been, it would have been, I think everything happens for the right reason, right? Like, had I not spun and like, I was completely Zen and we got back together and like perhaps did end up with an engagement. And then I saw that, like, then it would have been a whole nother mess of stuff to have to deal with.
And I, you know, I think everything happens for the right weird twisted reason in some way. And like, I, I did feel that we were separating as a couple.
And I do think that they both leaned into the experience pretty quickly and in a way that wasn't very settling for, you know, for myself to observe. But I do not believe that they had sex.
With that being said. We didn't do anything, like, at all.
Sandy, I do apologize for, I mean, we've recapped the show from the start. And I have said several times that I thought that y'all fucked.
Obviously, I haven't spoken to you in person. Right you in person so you know for you to look at me and say like no it did not happen i do believe you and i can imagine how frustrating and how fucking annoying it must be for everyone in the world to say you fucked a man you know you didn't right yep um so i am sorry for my part that's okay i mean look here's the thing i don't really like take this type of stuff personally because we're on a TV show.
That's what we signed up for. We're putting our life, our relationship out there for people to judge.
I'm a big fan of reality shows. I would be like, oh damn.
Like, so when I'm seeing this, I don't blame anybody for thinking that. Like, of course.
But it's just frustrating because it's like, that's not actually what happened. That's not really.
But, but you know I think that's on us for being a bit too like leaning into the flirtiness and and you know kind of leading with that when really that was like this in terms of our trial marriage and our connection it was mostly all like mental and emotional truly and it sucks that like you don't get to see any of those conversations because people really are just like, you guys were just here to mess around and whatnot. And it's hurtful for me because I really like, I really gave, I like really worked on a lot while we were in there.
And I challenged JR to work on a lot too. And that's where you hear me say, oh, I'm trying to train you.
Like, obviously that wasn't the right wording

in that moment.

But like, I was trying to challenge JR so much

to show up better for either Zayna

or any other person that he's with.

We dug into like his childhood, his marriage,

and just his mindset of things that he was holding onto.

And I was trying to like,

I got into arguments with him over these things.

I'm like, you better be making Zayna breakfast every morning because he would make breakfast every damn morning and was very much like wanting to just have it for himself. And so there was just a lot of different things that I was challenging him to, you know, think about the partnership over just yourself and the social media conversation, which we don't really see much of.
But I do also think JR is more at fault of this perception of the two of you than you are i think if you were placed with someone else i don't think people would be speculating on any of that you know it was clear that he wanted people to think that and he wanted people think that he had a big old you know yeah he was peacocking the whole time um nick i'm curious uh final question i know we have to wrap up what did you learn from that tattoo this fortune favors of both to keep getting more tattoos i mean i don't mean yeah but seriously i mean all jokes aside yeah i mean that's a wild story it is wild and there's no way i knew he had it i mean he has this tiny on his hands i don't believe everything happens for a reason i think shit happens and i think we're either willing to learn from it or we're not yeah um so what did you learn from that because i hope you learned something to read the stencil when he puts it on well it was i i wanted both so this is not like it's not some random point you're gonna get the other one yeah i was like i'm not i'm not really you wanted fortune favors yeah i was either gonna get 14 favors of bold or love conquers all and then i was in there there like super emo. I'm like, I can love conquers all.
Let's do it. Like this will be, I'll show up.
And then I had given him two stencils. I think I slept maybe 20 minutes prior to that.
I think you can see in my eyes, I was pretty out of it, but also not the best time to get a tattoo, but I have more. I'm going to get more.
Like it doesn't, but I do think that the right tattoo was put on my body maybe the lesson is don't get like a generic saying yeah literally like like nick also has enjoyed no no no nick also has enjoy the ride backwards on his chest because i wanted it looks in the mirror you know no else who has that tattoo nobody well you haven't seen everyone in the world naked. Anyways.
Like, okay, Marky Diamond. Why are you coming at me right now? No, no, no.
I'm just saying. You're coming at him.
He got the same tattoo as his arch rival on accident. You know? I'm just saying.
I mean, I didn't know he had it, but he's also not my arch rival. I'm just fucking with him.
I think it's like, I think anybody would have been into Sandy that was going to date her. Yeah.
I think he gets way too much fucking credit than he deserves. It's, I think that I was a little concerned about the authenticity from the beginning.
And I did express that to her. Um, yeah, I just, I felt like I was again, you know, part of me was protective and I didn't think that, that it was like necessarily, I don't know, just didn't feel right.
Something felt off. But I don't have, you know, I think there's a lot in this show that's like people are experiencing this, people are experiencing that.
And then we're seeing clips and then people are saying this. People are saying there's a lot of telephone going on.
And then there's the humans that are experiencing trying to figure out if they want to stay together for the rest of their lives. Well, I think we definitely want to thank you both for being so vulnerable and so open

and especially you, Nick, for sharing some of the things that you went through and experienced.

And I know that probably wasn't easy.

So thank you for doing that.

I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people.

Sitting on this couch together, props to both of you.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think it says a lot about our relationship know the the love and respect that we have for each other as humans um it was a really crazy thing that we went through and i i feel like it kind of brought out the worst in all of it but like for us to be able to come together and do this i mean i think it says a lot well thank you guys for coming i appreciate it i wish you both nothing but the best. I really do.
It's been fun getting to know the people and it was very fun to watch. Sorry.
If nothing else. You did make the TV.
You're welcome, guys. You delivered.
Yeah. You did make the TV.
I'm like, Merry Christmas. Thank you, Mrs.
Claus. Your back's a gift that just keeps on short.
I need a massage because my back hurts.

You guys did carry the season.

There is that.

Thank you guys for listening. Happy holidays.

Happy holidays, guys.

Bye.

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