E1040 – Going Deeper with Jessi And Jordan

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Speaker 1 you keep those ears on you here don't just pay baby paypal learn more at paypal.com it's that time of year from family gatherings around a warm fireplace to catching up over your favorite peppermint mocha together is the best place to be this episode is sponsored by starbucks i have to say every time i drink a peppermint mocha around the holidays it always reminds me of when My family after Thanksgiving, the Friday after Thanksgiving, we always go downtown Savannah.

Speaker 2 We walk the little riverside market. There's always a Starbucks there.
We like go, we wait and yeah, you get your hot peppermint mocha. It's cold.
You're cozy. You're with family.
It's fun.

Speaker 2 It's one of my favorite traditions.

Speaker 1 Delicioso. It tastes like Christmas.

Speaker 2 It does. It's the most nostalgic feeling ever to like it be chilly outside.
You have a hot Starbucks holiday drink and you're like with your family. There's nothing better.

Speaker 1 Well, we love family time with a warm drink in our hands. Share the season with the peppermint mocha or caramel brulee latte from Starbucks.

Speaker 1 Well, welcome back to part two of Going Deeper with Jesse and Jordan. We will get to Jesse and Jordan momentarily.
We're going to kick things off with my conversation with Jordan.

Speaker 1 Obviously, if you haven't listened to part one, pause. Go back.
Go back.

Speaker 2 Last week.

Speaker 1 Last week. It kicks off with uh me jesse and natalie and then natalie had a little one-on-one sit down with jesse

Speaker 2 and this is part two where we have me and jordan and then the four of us and then the four of us let me talk about it all but uh because it's the holiday season thanksgiving's tomorrow and since we're all in the holiday spirit before we kick things off we wanted to take a moment and thank the household for listening we know a lot of you guys listened to this show with your family and a lot of you guys are probably holding a Starbucks holiday beverage in your hands right now, just like us.

Speaker 2 So before we get to our special guest, Jesse and Jordan, we wanted to take a moment and talk about our favorite holiday memories.

Speaker 4 Yeah, Nick, what's your favorite holiday memory?

Speaker 1 One of my favorite holiday memories has always been when my family gets together to decorate Christmas cookies. Still a holiday tradition, as Natalie knows.
We do it every year.

Speaker 4 How many cookies is that?

Speaker 1 Oh, my mom makes so many. She makes gingerbread cookies and the...
her spinwheel, like black and white cookies.

Speaker 1 She also makes these really great like chow mein noodles, like the crunchy and pours chocolate over it.

Speaker 1 and then she makes a Christmas wreath based out of like marshmallow that's like marshmallows and

Speaker 1 the corn flakes corn flakes yes your sweet tooth is just

Speaker 2 you remember nothing

Speaker 2 but you remember every cookie your mother has ever made and then a peppermint mocha it pairs well uh with all the christmas cookies my favorite is definitely making homemade cinnamon rolls and like waking up in the morning going to starbucks getting a caramel brulee latte nick's always been a peppermint mocha kind of guy, so we get one of each.

Speaker 2 We come home, we make homemade cinnamon rolls, and that's what we have for breakfast. They pair so perfectly together, and it's just like being with the family, baking, cooking, drinking coffee.

Speaker 2 It's just like nothing's more wholesome, you know? It's just like cozy vibes.

Speaker 3 It's cozy vibes.

Speaker 1 Did you play much in the snow in your life, being a Florida?

Speaker 4 No, I didn't.

Speaker 1 Well, I did. And there is nothing better than coming outside of the cold, whether you were sledding down a hill, building a snowman, a snowball fight, you know?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You mentioned the caramel brulee latte, and it's so funny that you said that because that reminds me of my favorite Christmas memories is going and checking out all of the Christmas decorations with my friends in the car, grabbing

Speaker 2 the caramel brulee latte and putting on the Christmas tunes while we're going through. Candy cane lane.

Speaker 2 100% driving around listening to Christmas music with a hot Starbucks holiday drink is like next level. You can't.
There's nothing better to do.

Speaker 1 Have you seen those neighborhoods where they like fight with the lights or where they can key with who which house has the best lights? They wouldn't be fighting if they were all drinking Starbucks.

Speaker 1 That's true.

Speaker 4 They would just be happy and together.

Speaker 2 I'm fighting with everyone in my neighborhood, but it's just because no one else has put up their lights yet. And I'm like, guys, what are you doing? It's sad.

Speaker 4 I say it's because no one else wanted to get Starbucks with you.

Speaker 2 Well, that would never be the case.

Speaker 1 That's true. What about you, Mary?

Speaker 4 Okay, well, some of my favorite memories with my family was always, so my dad, obviously, he's a pastor. And so he would be gone Christmas morning because he would be doing church.

Speaker 4 And my siblings are a lot older. They're all in relationships and stuff or like have complicated family.
And so they wouldn't be there in the morning.

Speaker 4 So a lot of the times in the morning on Christmas, it's just like me and my mom.

Speaker 4 And so we'll like go get Starbucks. And her like favorite Starbucks beverages are always like the Christmas ones.

Speaker 2 Do you sit inside or do you do drive-through and sit in your car?

Speaker 4 We'll do drive-through because we're always like really, really trying to get back quick because she always wants to watch It's a Wonderful Life.

Speaker 4 It's her favorite movie and we watch it every single Christmas. And she talks through the entire thing and I just sit there and drink my coffee.

Speaker 4 She says the same things every year and it just always like warms my heart. And yes, when I drink the peppermint milk, it always makes me think of my mom.

Speaker 1 As you guys know, I'm from Wisconsin. So outdoor winter activities, whether it's sledding, making snowmen,

Speaker 1 or having snowball fights, it's always fun to play outside in the snow. Snow forts? Yes.

Speaker 1 Do you ever like when the snow truck would come and there'd be mounds of snow and you would make you you never that's right. You guys are all from Alabama California, but I was right.

Speaker 1 I didn't know that we would play outside for hours. We still play outside.
It gets real cold and we'd come in and have a nice hot cup of coffee from Starbucks. A nice hot peppermint mocha.

Speaker 1 If we were lucky,

Speaker 1 and I often was. I love that.

Speaker 2 It's that time of year, whether you're wrapping gifts, spending time with your family, or enjoying the seasons changing. Share the season with the holiday beverages from Starbucks.

Speaker 1 All right, now it's part two of Jesse and Jordan going deeper.

Speaker 1 Jordan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
I often start these interviews by asking our guests how their heart is.

Speaker 1 So it feels like appropriate in this conversation, but how is your heart these days? Better than it was. Okay.
Better than it was. Still healing.
Still healing. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 1 What has this season been like? Have you watched? Have you been able to watch this season? Okay. What was it like for you to live back this entire season?

Speaker 1 Obviously, a very an emotional one, I imagine, for both you and Jesse. Oh, man.
You know, Jesse watched all the episodes first and

Speaker 1 she, you know, benched them over a couple days and we had decided that we were going to watch them individually. And then she had watched them and I asked her how it was.
And

Speaker 1 after she had watched it back, she's like, hey, I, I think that we should watch it together. And I was like, okay.

Speaker 1 And she's like, and if you feel in, you know, any sort of way, you know, we can stop or whatever it might be. And we watched it all the way through and

Speaker 1 it was emotional, man. You know, having to relive that and

Speaker 1 see some of the things firsthand, right? The trip to St. George and hyper-focusing on

Speaker 1 specific details that went down and, you know, having to see myself. react the way that I did

Speaker 1 to certain things. It's hurtful.
It's painful to see yourself in that light. And it's painful to see the most important person in your life

Speaker 1 relive those moments too. Specifically, because obviously we had a chance to talk to Jesse and Natalie spoke with Jesse.
And, you know, throughout the season and obviously a part of this conversation,

Speaker 1 Jesse was pretty forthcoming about obviously your guys's relationship, not just what we saw in season three, but everything leading up to that.

Speaker 1 And, you know, Jesse has said that everything that she said to us, she, you know, you guys have, she's said to you, you guys have communicated, but she obviously used some pretty direct language in describing

Speaker 1 your treatment towards Jesse.

Speaker 1 Watching season three back, how eye-opening was it to you in terms of how you've treated Jesse throughout your relationship? Looking back and watching that back, it was really eye-opening to see that.

Speaker 1 And, you know, obviously when we are filming, we record hundreds of hours and very, very little makes the cut. You know, there were a lot of scenes that didn't make the cut that,

Speaker 1 you know, honestly were pretty bad, you know, to be forthcoming.

Speaker 1 About your behavior. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
And through the entirety of filming season two, I, I, we were going through all of this.

Speaker 1 And I was doing, we were both doing everything we could to keep a lid on it.

Speaker 1 And I was, I felt like I was dying inside because i couldn't talk to anyone about this because the risk of it getting out was something i was like completely petrified of um and i think she was petrified of it as well were you more worried of it getting out and and hearing about what the public had to say about your relationship or you or was it more hurtful for what jesse did both i think during that six months i was probably coming at it from from more of a selfish standpoint.

Speaker 1 I think that I was so embarrassed and felt a lot of shame if people knew what my wife had done.

Speaker 1 And I wasn't even worried about what I had done to put her in a place where she felt that that was a need. Does that make sense? Not a need or maybe...

Speaker 1 What drove her to a

Speaker 1 place where she could even be in that place. Yeah.
Once you came to that realization, I mean, I guess at what point did you have, I guess, an aha moment in terms of

Speaker 1 realizing how you've treated Jesse? Like,

Speaker 1 what was the biggest moment? Because, you know, honestly, it's hearing Jesse speak her truth and share her story and watching this season back.

Speaker 1 It's definitely jarring for the audience to see

Speaker 1 and even more jarring to hear. And it seems surprising that you wouldn't have noticed, but like, I guess, was there a moment that really, like,

Speaker 1 oh my God, I can't believe I acted this way?

Speaker 1 I would say that that slap in the face that you're talking about was like the day that we separated.

Speaker 1 That was the biggest aha moment, but I would say it was like an onion, you know, like I had to peel those layers back over the next week, two weeks.

Speaker 1 You know, it's, it's, I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but for me, it was

Speaker 1 the whole time I was so hurt and so

Speaker 1 traumatized by what happened that I couldn't even see my wife.

Speaker 1 I couldn't see her pain or the way that she felt because I was so upset and distraught about what she had done that it only got, it only magnified the issues that we had.

Speaker 1 Did you ever have a moment like once you became, I guess, self-aware about your behavior about the pain you you caused Jesse in the years leading up to this moment?

Speaker 1 Because, you know, whether it was, you know, from Jesse's words, you know, kind of putting her down,

Speaker 1 you know, calling her names, speaking in a very aggressive tone, you know, what was it like?

Speaker 1 Or did you have kind of a realization of all those moments of speaking to Jesse this way that, you know, again, she, you know, refers to as emotional abuse?

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, I think in those moments, I felt,

Speaker 1 are you talking, just so I'm very specific,

Speaker 1 at what point are you, are you talking about? Are you talking about prior to the affair, after I found out of the affair, after, you know, really just prior to the affair, right?

Speaker 1 Because I think, I mean, at least for me, like the hardest part, you know, to hear, the hardest part of Jesse's story is, again, like

Speaker 1 we've heard Jesse on the show, even when we got to speak with her, when Natalie spoke with her.

Speaker 1 You know, Jesse, you could tell she's a woman who wants to take accountability. She obviously is embarrassed of her actions.
She's apologized, obviously, to you.

Speaker 1 She feels the shame and no doubt, I'm sure, is worried about what people are going to say when this gets out.

Speaker 1 But you can, you know, I felt this empathy for her because, you know, there's certainly no excuse for what she did, but there are often reasons, right? You can have reasons for what you do.

Speaker 1 Doesn't justify it, but it really seems like hearing Jesse's side of the story and just honestly seeing some of your reactions, you kind kind of see it, right?

Speaker 1 On season three, this kind of anger that you have when you get triggered.

Speaker 1 And it seems like this was, according to Jesse, you know, a behavior that was fairly consistent in the past few years leading up to this.

Speaker 1 And I'm just like wondering, is that, do you, do you realize that? Do you agree with that? No.

Speaker 1 And I guess, how do you feel knowing, you know, that you've been labeled this or what does it mean to you

Speaker 1 in terms of of like maybe how you failed at Jesse as a wife because I feel like so much of like what we heard you say in season three was like reminding Jesse you had the affair you had the affair and really kind of putting it on her to almost justify your anger but we now know that this is something like prior to the affair the thing that hurt her the most is something that she had to experience with you for for so long so something that Jesse and I have

Speaker 1 talked you know we've been doing lots of therapy for the like the last

Speaker 1 you know it's been almost a year you know one of the things that you know our relationship got to a place after the affair where all of our issues were magnified right and before that we had issues and uh it's not an excuse but during those times it felt like my needs weren't being met and that's the way that i would come out that's the way i would show my uh my frank right is uh because i would get pissed off and i would try to control because that was me screaming side hey like i want to be treated like a partner and you're always busy doing all these other things and appeasing everyone but me.

Speaker 1 And you're people pleasing all these other people and these other relationships. That was my excuse and my thought process then, right? Was,

Speaker 1 you know, for me, it was a cry for help and it was a cry for attention. And,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 I've obviously learned a lot about myself through lots and lots of therapy. And it's not that that part of you just disappears.
It's not that part of you just goes away.

Speaker 1 It's just deciding that that's not who you want to be. And it's not letting things that trigger you, you know, expose a side of you that

Speaker 1 you don't want to have. Like there are times where things come up and, you know, you guys will see things in the future where, you know, life's not perfect.
And

Speaker 1 we've been doing our best to look inward towards one another.

Speaker 1 to try and work on our relationship because we have a beautiful family and kids that we want to to raise and and do this thing i i it's it's it's it's been really hard you referenced frank jesse reference it's kind of alter ego of i guess what your third jesse's got one too we we haven't labeled her yet but okay

Speaker 1 uh but focusing on you for now where do you think that comes from and i i guess the reason i ask is you know we all have our flaws so i'm not you know but i am you know i had great role models in my parents and specifically my dad um

Speaker 1 and you know, I was raised in terms of how to speak to women. And I obviously had a great role model in my father.
So, you know, it is tough to, you know, in general, I'm very critical of men who

Speaker 1 speak a certain way to women and name call. And it's, you know, it's just tough to hear.

Speaker 1 But like, we're not to pass the blame on to anyone else, but, you know, I'm, I'm, to be honest, like sometimes very surprised that men can speak to women a certain way in such a degrading way or name call.

Speaker 1 But where do you feel like that came from? You know,

Speaker 1 that's a good question.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you know much about my past, but I had my first daughter when I was 18 years old. And in Utah, it's very much

Speaker 1 a taboo sub, like sex is something you don't talk about.

Speaker 1 When we'd have like maturation, they would say, you know, they would basically talk about sperm traveling to the egg, but they didn't tell you where that came from or how that happens or anything.

Speaker 1 They'd say, oh, and if your parents want to tell you about what sexual intercourse is, they can.

Speaker 1 And I remember thinking, like, what is this? An alien story? Like, what did you guys just tell me?

Speaker 1 And, you know, so I essentially lost my virginity and had my daughter at 18 years old and, you know, basically had a shotgun wedding. And

Speaker 1 very soon.

Speaker 1 After we got married, we realized like she wanted to do the whole Mormon route. And that was something that I tried to do.
And I just could not get myself to that place. I just didn't believe in it.

Speaker 1 Like I never had that.

Speaker 1 Your first wife? Yes.

Speaker 1 I never had that like

Speaker 1 burning in my bosom, you know, like I never like believed in it. I wanted to with like everything in me, but I just could never get to that place.

Speaker 1 And because of that, we decided to not be together anymore. And I remember feeling so upset that I let

Speaker 1 my daughter down because she would never have like a normal upbringing because her parents aren't together right even if I get remarried or her mom gets remarried It's still like a split life.

Speaker 1 Does that make sense? And I think it created a

Speaker 1 I think it created a little bit of a feminine wound Honestly. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 I think it created a wound in the place that was like she wasn't okay with me not having the same religious beliefs as her if that makes sense She so she chose church over me, right?

Speaker 1 And I think it created a this wound. As a matter of fact, I know it did because I've been doing a lot of therapy.
And I think since then I've had a lot of trust issues with women.

Speaker 1 And I think that's what made what happened with the affair so much worse is because of those

Speaker 1 feminine wounds. And, you know, it's one of those things.
And I think that it created a feminine wound. And I think that's where that comes from.

Speaker 1 You know, I grew up with all brothers and, you know, we didn't have.

Speaker 1 We didn't really have girls in the house growing up much. You know,

Speaker 1 we,

Speaker 1 I don't know, I don't know if your family situation growing up, but with all boys, we were always shit talking one another.

Speaker 1 And even, even my mom growing up was like, very much like, very like, like we'd joke around with her and like, like she was very much like a boy mom, if that makes sense. And like,

Speaker 1 my family is all very aggressive, like the way we communicate. Right.
And it's not something that.

Speaker 1 I think that that combined with the feminine wound is what kind of caused things to go where they went. Thinking back to your past relationship, do you feel like you,

Speaker 1 like if we spoke to your ex-wife, would she relate to Jesse and how you spoke to her in terms of how you treated Jesse? My relationship was never like what it was with Jesse.

Speaker 1 That was also like, that was 18 years old. That was 13 years ago.
So you would, you never...

Speaker 1 Like you never name called or... Never name called.
Okay. But to answer the question, yes, I think that that aggression was there.

Speaker 1 So what changed with Jesse that caused you to kind of turn into this kind of...

Speaker 1 I think that what caused it for me, and again, this is not to create excuses, but just to

Speaker 1 have it be out there is just not feeling like a priority. It's just not feeling like that that love was shown.
Like, you know, it felt like it was a cry for attention, a cry for help.

Speaker 1 Because it's like you're over here,

Speaker 1 you know, even it only got worse once the show came about right it's it was just not feeling like

Speaker 1 being enough did you ever like just sit jesse down and and communicate that with her other than

Speaker 1 doing it the way you did a lot of times yeah we were in therapy and there were things that she wanted me to change and i would make a lot of those changes and like what it would be like you know not being so aggressive about things or Not being controlling, you know?

Speaker 1 And control for me is like, when I don't feel like I'm in control, it feels like I'm powerless, right?

Speaker 1 And those are all things that I've, I've, again, learned in therapy, but I would make a lot of these changes and then Jesse would be like frozen, like stuck.

Speaker 1 Not because she's like out to get me or, or anything like that. It's just sometimes in those moments, I think that

Speaker 1 it was hard for her to change learned habits. Like Jesse's a workaholic.
And was your change conditional? I think at that time it was. At that time, for sure.

Speaker 1 I think I hit a point when I kind of just like threw my hands up in the air and I'm like, why do I want to make all these efforts if you're not going to meet me with a spec at the time? Do you see

Speaker 1 now why, I guess, because when I hear that, it's just like, if I'm you, I would just want to be known as a guy who would never speak to women that way or certainly my partner. 100%.

Speaker 1 Regardless of how Nally might act or whatever, you know, if Natalie did something to hurt me, I would just want to to

Speaker 1 never treat my partner that way and hold myself accountable, you know, so that, yeah, I wouldn't want that to ever be the case.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, looking back, what do you wish you would have done differently? Or do you wish you would have given Jesse more time to maybe adjust?

Speaker 1 Because I gave you a-I'll be honest, like, I gave it a lot of time. It was very much, you know,

Speaker 1 There was, there was definitely something underlying that she needed to work on. And she's been working on those those things.

Speaker 1 Like what? Oh,

Speaker 1 one of the things I'm sure I hope she talked to you guys about, and I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but she has a bad people-pleasing problem.

Speaker 1 And I think you guys see that a lot throughout the show, you know, where you see like what Demi did to her, and she continued to let her back in after horrible things.

Speaker 1 And I think that people-pleasing can definitely cause, like, there's that.

Speaker 1 She'll people-please someone for so long before, you know, they'll burn her.

Speaker 1 And I think that's kind of what what you guys have seen like meaning like some you know other relationships or other things going on might be more important than what really matters and that's your family you know sure i mean i think a lot of people struggle with people pleasing i guess my question to you is let's say jesse required some time to work on that you know maybe it took a couple years to really get out of that you know that kind of pattern of of worrying about what people are thinking are you still capable of

Speaker 1 not justifying reacting to Jesse in the ways that you've reacted in the past? I think that I have done an excellent job and I'm very proud of the progress that I've made.

Speaker 1 And I would say that Jesse is also proud of the progress that I've made. Yeah, she mentioned as much.

Speaker 1 You mentioned a lot of times in this season that you felt very emasculated. What does masculinity mean to you? And what did you mean by that?

Speaker 1 Maybe that was, maybe, I think it's still the right thought, but I think it was just the embarrassment.

Speaker 1 I think that like what happened, how it happened who it happened with is at the time i was just i was mortified i think that i thought about it in a way that was like well what is that how does that make me look as a man that's what i meant by the emasculated feeling right i wasn't so worried in the moment about what i had done to to lead to that point it was just selfishness right so that's what i meant about

Speaker 1 Do you think you felt emasculated in your relationship with Jesse prior to the emotional affair?

Speaker 1 Probably right before, maybe like the six months leading up to it. How so?

Speaker 1 One of the things the show doesn't really touch on is,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 I was very successful in what I did before this. So I used to work for my friend's solar company out here in Southern California.

Speaker 1 Made really good money, but it required me to spend, you know, 15, 16 weeks a year here, which is not very much considering how good the money was.

Speaker 1 And that was really tough for more so my kids, just because like, you know, gone for a week and a half, back for a week, gone for two weeks, whatever it might be,

Speaker 1 specifically during the summertime mostly. And Jesse began to have obviously so much success even before the show that it didn't make, it didn't matter how much money I was making.

Speaker 1 It didn't make sense for me to be gone and to leave her while she's creating, building an empire when she needs help raising the kids.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I think that there was some resentment for sure having to give give up my career working with my friends while she could go build this empire, you know?

Speaker 1 Why didn't you feel like you guys were building this together? Because she made it clear that it was not something we were building together. And I tried to actually do that.
How so?

Speaker 1 How did she make it? How can I help you?

Speaker 1 She would use things and say things to me at times that made me feel justified to act out the way that I did. She would say, like, this is my thing.
You know, you go, you go do your own thing.

Speaker 1 She didn't want to build it together. How did that make you feel? Like Like a piece of shit.

Speaker 1 And was it like you, did you leave that, like, didn't you guys make that decision as a couple for you to stop working? For sure.

Speaker 1 We did. And I, and as hard as that was, I think what I was looking for in that moment was appreciation, you know?

Speaker 1 I know that must have been hard, but I appreciate you doing that for our family, you know? Just something like that. Did you feel emotionally abandoned by her? Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Prior to the affair, yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you feel like Jesse understands that now?

Speaker 1 I think she's starting to understand it, but not fully.

Speaker 1 And I guess what part of you, I mean, if you were to try to put yourself in Jesse's shoes and fully empathize with her point of view, can you see why

Speaker 1 she would have a hard time letting you in to do this thing together, you know, as a result of how have you spoken with her? Obviously, she's been married before.

Speaker 1 And there's just in general as a society, I think, you know, we don't give enough women credit for being successful entrepreneurs and things like that.

Speaker 1 So I guess just in general, do you feel like you could have done a better job, even though you weren't getting what you needed from your wife in that moment, to really try to empathize with her

Speaker 1 and just make her feel safe to eventually let you in? Absolutely.

Speaker 1 That's honestly where I went wrong, right? Was

Speaker 1 not being patient with that and maybe not being explicit enough with what we want together and working towards that instead of acting out the way that it did.

Speaker 1 So what are you doing now in your life to feel like you're doing your part to provide for your family? That's a great question.

Speaker 1 I never thought I would be a TV personality or whatever, however you call it, reality TV person. So it's, it's, I'm not even close to as polished or as good as this as Jesse is.

Speaker 1 It doesn't even come like I'm not even, I don't even come close.

Speaker 1 And I think think what I'm trying to do now is, you know, something that I actually haven't talked about is like the birth of dad talk essentially came off the heels of the affair.

Speaker 1 Like I didn't do much social media. As a matter of fact, I did almost nothing until the affair happened.
And then I tried to use

Speaker 1 after that point, I said, I need to have my own thing.

Speaker 1 And if this is going to be something that I can try to be closer to my wife and have something more in common, like that was the birth of dad talks genuinely.

Speaker 1 And that's why I tried to wrangle all the guys and all this. And,

Speaker 1 you know, as I got closer to a lot of the guys,

Speaker 1 you know, it was hard to have them, you know, tell me what they were going through and not be able to feel like I can be honest or have someone to share this pain with. Sorry, I spaced your question.

Speaker 1 What was your question one more time? Just like, how do you feel like you can kind of support your family? So right now,

Speaker 1 you know, because of

Speaker 1 dad talk and stuff, like Jesse and I and myself, I've actually been doing some pretty cool brand deals and stuff. So as far as like financially, it helps, but you know, Jesse's, Jesse's

Speaker 1 a killer business person. She's an entrepreneur.
Yeah, but I guess what I'm getting at, too, is outside of finances, right? And maybe that's just our society, you know,

Speaker 1 whatever. But like, how do you feel like you can step as a, up, as a father, as a man, setting aside finances?

Speaker 1 That's what I've been doing is, you know, when Jesse's out here doing press in LA, I'm at home with the kids. And, you know, I'm the one that's doing a lot more of the load with the kids now.

Speaker 1 And there was a point in time when she asked me

Speaker 1 to do that. And I did not want that to be my

Speaker 1 role. Like as far as like the primary caregiver to the children, it just made me feel like that's not what I wanted to do in life.

Speaker 1 And the more I've began to learn and understand that, it's not that I don't love spending time with my kids, but I just wanted to like go out and do things.

Speaker 1 I just, I grew up and I understood that that was that was never going to be the role that I played.

Speaker 1 But I also have also learned now that there's seasons to this. There's seasons in life.
And

Speaker 1 I cherish and love that time that I've been able to spend with my kids because, you know, sometimes I honestly like look back and I don't think without something like this happening, of course, I wish it didn't happen.

Speaker 1 I don't think that there would have been something like a catalyst like this that would have put me in a position to where I would have ever had that time with my kids like this, especially at their ages that they're at.

Speaker 1 Speaking of your kids, Jesse mentioned

Speaker 1 that at times when you would have your outburst or or say some of the emotionally abusive things that you said, that your children were present. How have you reflected on that?

Speaker 1 And are you worried about how they will see you as a partner and to your wife and as a father?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say that when those things would happen, it would be like Jesse and I in the closet and the kids in the room or something.

Speaker 1 And then they would come in and then we'd be like, hey, we can't do this. So they would definitely hear it.

Speaker 1 And I honestly feel like they were at an age where they were probably starting to pick up on that.

Speaker 1 I think the best thing that I can do is just show them now how they should treat their mom and how they should treat, you know, how my son should treat women.

Speaker 1 I think that that's the best thing that I can do moving forward.

Speaker 1 Watching the season, it seemed like, and we asked Jesse as much, but it kind of felt like you would bring up, you had the affair, you had the affair.

Speaker 1 There was that part, there was that scene where you almost kind of were, it seemed like putting Jesse in a corner was like, well, how are, what, you know, what are, what are our kids going to think when they react?

Speaker 1 Are you not going to tell them?

Speaker 1 And then it was like how are you gonna be accountable and then she was like well i guess i'll tell them and then it was like well i don't want you to do that you know because like you're really going to tell our kids that you had you cheated on me and it really kind of felt like you wanted almost to punish her like you wanted to feel like the good guy and she was the bad guy like how do you want jesse to be perceived this season How do I want her to be perceived this season?

Speaker 1 Yeah, like I want her to watch this.

Speaker 1 I want my wife to have forgiveness or to be forgiven. I want my wife to succeed and be the star that she is that's what i want for my wife

Speaker 1 i i i maybe it didn't come across that way but sometimes i think the hard the hard thing is in that situation is it's like decisions have consequences and when you make poor decisions it's hard at times not that it's an excuse but it's hard at times not to like be like what are you thinking like why in the world like i want you to be forgiven and I want you to have redemption and move forward.

Speaker 1 But like when you continue to make like these poor decisions, it's hard to like stand by and be like, good job, you know, or whatever it might be. That was how I was feeling in that moment.

Speaker 1 Do you think she's continuing to make poor decisions? As of now? Sure. No? Okay.

Speaker 1 I mean, even if that was the case, I think there's a difference between like a poor decision like that and a poor decision like, I don't know,

Speaker 1 something else, you know? Do you remember the scene I'm talking about where you were asking her about like, how are your kids are going to find out? What are our kids? Maybe.

Speaker 1 You were just like, our kids are going to find out.

Speaker 1 How are our guys going to find out? And Jesse was like, well, I'll tell them. I thought, maybe I'm wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 But my understanding of that was, what are you going to tell our kids when they see this one day? Because they will, if I remember it correctly. Something like that.

Speaker 1 And then she's like, well, we'll sit down and talk to them. And that seemed to not be an answer you liked.
You were like, well, you're going to tell them that you cheated on me? No. Well, right.

Speaker 1 And maybe that was just the cut because what I said was, what are you going to tell them that you cheated on me? And then you went to go to a lie detector with the guy you had an affair affair with?

Speaker 1 Like, in that moment, like, I stand by that being, um,

Speaker 1 I wish that that didn't happen, right? I wish that that, I think it was a poor choice. Jesse wasn't present during that.
I mean, you could see it on her face. What do you mean by present?

Speaker 1 She was numb. She wasn't even there.
No one was home. Does that make you empathize with her more or less? More.

Speaker 1 I think that's what was so painful watching it back was it was like knock knock no one's home. It was it was that it was sad.

Speaker 1 It was sad on multiple fronts it was sad on that front and then i'm also sad for myself too

Speaker 1 and i guess going forward and we'll bring jesse and natalie in here in in just a few minutes but i guess before we do i mean what do you hope as the audience watches back what do you hope that they think of you coming out of this interview and what do you want them to know about you as a man and your ability to be a partner towards Jesse going forward?

Speaker 1 Well, I hope that my presence here today shows that I'm willing to take accountability and that

Speaker 1 you can make mistakes and you can grow from them and you don't necessarily have to be perfect, but if you're continuing to work, I think that's kind of genuinely like what's made Jesse and I have, I don't want to call it success, but like the only reason that we're in the place that we're at today is because

Speaker 1 of continuing to work on ourselves. And in turn, not only does working on ourselves make us better, but we're working on our relationships.

Speaker 1 So like, I think the thing that I would say if if I wanted, uh, people to think about me in a certain way is that I'm just, I'm just like you, I'm just like you.

Speaker 1 I make mistakes and I try to grow from them.

Speaker 1 And I hope that that resonates with someone. That's, that's the whole point of me coming today.

Speaker 1 Do you think Jesse can feel safe going forward with you to say that you will never speak to her in a manner that you did before? Like, is there a, can she

Speaker 1 have a

Speaker 1 black and white rule going forward that if you were to ever do that again? I told Jesse that that if it ever gets like that again, I don't want anything to do with this relationship either.

Speaker 1 For her sake, for my kids' sake, and for my own sake.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, let's bring in Jesse and Natalie and then we'll have a little powwow and talk about, you know, some of the other characters on the season and send you guys on your way.
Let's do it.

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Speaker 1 Well, welcome back. Thanks.
It's been forever. I was going to ask this to Jordan when it was just him and I, but I didn't get a chance to ask him yet, so I'll ask him now.

Speaker 1 But obviously, last time you were here, Neal asked you a very direct question about

Speaker 1 what was the exact question. Do you remember?

Speaker 2 It was, would Jesse want her daughter to marry a man like Jordan? Yeah. And her answer was no.

Speaker 3 And I couldn't even go into detail either, so it was kind of hard.

Speaker 2 How did you find out that that question was asked and it was answered that way?

Speaker 1 I saw a TikTok.

Speaker 3 Oh, no, no.

Speaker 1 I came home and told you i came and told you right right no no i'm sorry you did you did tell me yes okay now i remember that i didn't let you find out online what was your reaction i'm gonna be honest i don't remember that reaction i remember seeing i remember the phone call i had with you after that clip i remember calling you and and just being absolutely irate pissed

Speaker 1 because I felt like the question was answered really unfairly. You know, at the time, I was actually pissed off that the question was asked the way that it was

Speaker 1 and the response more so, honestly, at the time.

Speaker 1 Just because I feel like, again, like

Speaker 1 what I've learned in therapy is just like, you always want to talk about your partner or even the parent of your child with the utmost respect. Right.

Speaker 1 And, you know, would I want my daughter to be with someone who acted and treated them the way they did? No, but that was, you know, that's just one piece, right?

Speaker 1 Like, I would have loved some, you married me, you know, like we had multiple kids together. You, you chose me.
And I would have loved to have had some like, you know, context.

Speaker 3 Well, the thing is, at the time, I couldn't give context because season three hadn't, you know, come out yet.

Speaker 3 But I think for me, when, when I hear Jordan say that, is I was kind of, I understand him being upset for sure, but I was kind of hoping it would make him like wake up a little and be like, oh, like, do I want my daughter to be with someone like that?

Speaker 3 And I think over time, you've seen that in therapy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But also I think a point that you're making is interesting that you don't speak about the parent of your child that way, but you also spoke to the parent of your children a certain way for a long time behind closed doors.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 you know, like it kind of takes to detangle.

Speaker 1 I mean, I guess now that you're sitting here now, you guys have both talked a lot about the work you've done. Yeah.
How do you feel about that response now?

Speaker 1 Well, I shouldn't have responded the way I did. That's, that's, that's Frank coming out, right? It doesn't mean that I changed the way that I felt.

Speaker 1 I still feel like you shouldn't have spoken to me to the world that way. It's because our kids would have seen that.

Speaker 3 Exactly. They're going to see worse.

Speaker 1 I still stand by that.

Speaker 1 And I still stand by that. I wish they didn't have to ever see season three.
I wish they didn't have to see any of that.

Speaker 1 I don't want my kids to see their parents, their so-called heroes, and these tough positions that they both put themselves in. But it's, again, it's how you respond.
It's how you show up. And

Speaker 1 that's where the work has been done.

Speaker 2 When I asked the question to you, Jesse, had y'all already filmed season three or were y'all in the middle of filming?

Speaker 3 We were in the middle of it and we were currently separated.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 It was during the press tour that they showed in LA where we did like the bus and we were there and like doing press in LA. I think it was that trip.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Gotcha. So I guess with that knowing that and knowing how you felt that Jesse had spoken this way

Speaker 1 about you to the world.

Speaker 2 Did that change how you spoke to her continuing the season? Because you now had this like outsider point of view of like seeing her negatively speak about you and you didn't like it.

Speaker 2 So did that change?

Speaker 1 I think I want to say that like it's it's not like this like there was not like a day it was like an awakening in therapy, right? It wasn't like, oh, now everything's going to be perfect.

Speaker 1 Like that's not how it works, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So to like say specifically, like moving forward from that point, like I don't remember specifically, but like I would just say that it's just progressively gotten better and better.

Speaker 1 Like that's, that's what I'd answer to that. I don't,

Speaker 1 honestly, I just don't specifically recall. Like I remember being absolutely pissed off.

Speaker 3 And but the nice thing about us being separated at the time is you don't have to continue to fight. You can just say, okay, done.

Speaker 3 You know, so even though he was mad, I don't think it continued just because we were separated. And I was like, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, let me ask you this question based back to.
Nally's question to Jesse. I totally get and agree with you in terms of like how couples speak together about each other publicly matters.

Speaker 1 It's a big priority for Nellie and I. I completely understand why that would hurt you.

Speaker 1 What hurts you more as you sit here today, the fact that Jesse did that or how you spoke to and treated Jesse over the years?

Speaker 1 Oh, I mean, for sure, I treated her over the years. It's not even close.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would never, I wouldn't, I mean,

Speaker 1 like, it's not even a comparison.

Speaker 3 Also, to be fair,

Speaker 3 I would never have just said that out of the blue. Like, we were filming about our situation and sharing so much publicly already that I was like, this is just one of many things we're sharing.

Speaker 3 So, you know, it's going to come out.

Speaker 1 I mean, listen, it's, again,

Speaker 1 it's a tough situation. Again, I can completely understand where Jordan's coming from.
On the flip side, you are a public figure.

Speaker 1 And as a mom with children, you know, you don't want to be in that position where you... think about your partner the way you do and the difficulty that you guys have.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And, you know, honestly, I felt like you were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Like, do I protect Jordan or do I stand up for what I think is right? Because my kids might hear this someday.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we talk a lot about daddy issues. Natalie's very forthright about her relationship with her father and things like that.

Speaker 1 And the reality is, like, choices you've made in the relationship with Jesse, you know, hopefully you've made some meaningful changes and going forward, you know, that will have a greater impact on your children than maybe in the past.

Speaker 1 But I imagine that's a concern that you had up into that point about, you know, what are expectations that my children are going to have of the men they date based off of how their father treats me.

Speaker 3 Or even how Jagger treats women, you know, like as a son. Yeah.
So I agree. And I think that the only reason I answered the question the way I did is because of our dynamic and how I was treated.

Speaker 3 So I think both of us taking accountability and saying, okay, maybe I shouldn't have said that publicly, but also I wish we wouldn't have been in that place to have to do that, you know?

Speaker 1 I think one of the things now that I look think back, it was I said, if I was ever asked that question about our son, I would never, I might have felt that way, right?

Speaker 1 I wouldn't have like, would I want my son to date someone like you? You know, because in that moment, I'm only worried about, would I want my son to date someone who had an affair?

Speaker 1 And I would have obviously said no.

Speaker 1 But I would never have said that out loud, right? I would have given it context. Well, no, not someone that would have an affair, but that's not who Jesse is.
Like, that's not her authentic self.

Speaker 1 Like, that was one of the things that I remember like harping on her and like being pissed off about was it hard for you to separate the two though of like

Speaker 1 she could only answer it this way because of the show or were you kind of like I don't give a fuck about the show like I don't in the moment I was like you can say there are I remember saying something along the lines of like you you could have said who he uh in certain moments no or something like that I don't remember like specifically but something like that um but yeah I was I was definitely like,

Speaker 1 yeah, but what if it was just like so bad from her point of view that she well, I mean, like, if it was so bad, then we should have been divorced, you know, like

Speaker 1 trying it, you know. Maybe, maybe you should have been.
If there's a chance at your relationship, that's, I think that was kind of the point was like we were in this limbo place.

Speaker 1 And if like you're going to make an accusation or make a comment like that, that's where that anger was was coming from in that moment.

Speaker 2 Jesse did tell us a few times that like she, you know, had tried to divorce you. She had kind of like threatened this like, I'll walk away.
And it didn't seem like it was really an option.

Speaker 2 Why wasn't it for you?

Speaker 1 Because, well, actually, it's, it's, it's funny enough. I remember when I asked Jesse's dad for her hand and I remember saying, him saying, um,

Speaker 1 he's not like the very like sentimental type, like at all.

Speaker 1 Like, he's very much like, how would you describe your dad?

Speaker 3 Just not emotional.

Speaker 1 No, like there's like emotion plays like no role in anything. And I just remember him like, like giving this whole spiel and and doing all this stuff.
And I just remember him going like this.

Speaker 1 He just was like,

Speaker 1 she's your problem now. And I just remember one of the things that I promised him was that like divorce was not an option for me.

Speaker 1 Like it's just not like I don't want to do this with that ever even being an option. Like this is it.
And I don't know. Like it's just one of those things that's always like kind of stood in my head.

Speaker 1 Like, I made that decision. And, like, my love for Jesse has never wavered.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, what might be coming might have wavered or like, you know, the possibility of divorce, but like, my, my love for her, like, it never wavered.

Speaker 2 But how you treated her did.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it did. You're right.

Speaker 1 So I, you guys weren't in here earlier. Um, you know, one of the questions that Nick had asked me was, um,

Speaker 1 you know, why did, why did you treat her that way? You know, and I think for me, it was just, you know, it's a cry for help. It was just like wanting to feel seen and to feel loved.

Speaker 1 And I think that's where it comes from. It's not an excuse, but like, that's just like the root of it for me.
Right.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we went into a lot of depth with that.

Speaker 2 But Jesse, do you see that point of view? Do you feel like that's valid for him?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think he's definitely an anxious attachment type. And I'm a, what am I?

Speaker 1 Avoidant. Avoidant.
You forgot. Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 3 I was like, I know there's a word for it. I'm avoidant.
So I don't, I'm not overly emotional. I'm not like a typical girl, I would say.
No. I don't like get jealous.
I don't, I just, I don't know.

Speaker 3 So yeah, maybe I'm not the best at showing love, but I do feel like it was not crazy horrible. Like maybe I was just working a lot and you felt like I wasn't your top priority.

Speaker 3 And I for sure could see that.

Speaker 3 Maybe I could have made him more of a priority rather than my business because I, I did make that like my whole life. Do I think it was justified like to be treated that way just because of that?

Speaker 3 No, especially when I gave him a pretty nice life.

Speaker 3 But I understand what he means by it, like the sentiment of it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is it hard to hear that she says she gave you a pretty nice life?

Speaker 1 Well, it's just, I mean, we also talked about that. So one thing that the show doesn't really highlight is the fact that up until, well, this is, it's, oh, we're coming up on two years now.
Wow.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I used to have my dream job with people that I love working with and I made really good money doing it. And it just just didn't make sense to commute to California

Speaker 1 You know for four months of the year.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I did say that earlier how I think that like him not working and having a purpose for sure affected his confidence Have you guys ever talked about you going back to work?

Speaker 3 Yeah, but if solar's different now.

Speaker 1 That's the hard Yeah, a lot of the a lot of the

Speaker 1 The solar gold rush is is still good. It's just not like it was ridiculous.
So whether it's the solar gold rush or in solar, but just like something

Speaker 1 something something that like if I mean, I've tried, I mean, like I said, I told, I was telling Nick this, like, I think the thing that's been really cool through this process, like, I never saw myself like doing this whole like social media personality thing, but,

Speaker 1 you know, these brand deals have been big and it's been good money, but it's also like, it's not always like consistent.

Speaker 1 And it's like, it's just not the same kind of grind and stuff that I was used to.

Speaker 3 I think it's hard to have, I will say, it's hard to have a normal job in this world because we film twice a year and they demand a lot from us.

Speaker 3 And now the husbands are way more involved in the story than they've ever been. So it is hard to have a schedule.
And also, I like joked about this with Dakota the other day.

Speaker 3 I was like, how do you go just do tile jobs now? Like being who you are, like Taylor's ex, like Taylor's blowing up right now, like you're Dakota.

Speaker 3 And it is kind of weird to like think of just going to work a normal job and then having this life on the side, you know?

Speaker 3 Like it's just kind of like, how do we know people aren't hiring Dakota just so they can meet him, you know?

Speaker 3 Exactly. So I think it would be hard for him, but also I truly believe he needs a passion.
And I hope he, you know, loves what he's doing right now with the internet stuff.

Speaker 3 But again, that could go away. It doesn't last forever.

Speaker 3 I would love for him to have something that he felt was his because even this world is mine that he stepped into. And maybe that also affects you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I think that I have my own, my own thing going with that, honestly.
Okay. But I mean, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the stuff that we've been doing with dad talk has nothing.

Speaker 1 I mean, we have the views and whatnot from you guys for sure but like it's still our own no it's your own thing but like it is you deciding to become a part of my world yeah yeah for sure that was what I meant like and I was telling him that the birth of dad talk came at the heels of everything that happened like I essentially was like well if I'm gonna try and find common ground with Jesse like

Speaker 3 I'm gonna do the social media thing boom we're gonna do dad talk like that's what started it Jordan had mentioned that he tried to be supportive in your businesses and felt kind of shut down by you like you meant you saying like this is my thing do you remember it that way and and why did you choose to go about it that way rather than kind of bringing him into the fold so to be honest i would love if he could be a part of it but my family just would not allow it to be honest like jordan can be very controlling and very opinionated there's been a few times he's done little things for us and he comes in and tries to change everything and they were like this is our business like you're aware of this like yeah you know they we're talking about years old stuff but yeah no yeah but like that's really what happened is he would would try to help out with things but then he would try to change it or do it his way or give us feedback that we didn't necessarily need and i think it all came from a good place of like him wanting to help but he has a way of it coming across as controlling and harsh at times so my family truly was like we don't want him involved like this is our thing so it just kind of got to that point where i had to say like sorry it has to be separate are you interested in like showing Jesse's family that you are capable of knowing your role when it comes to participating with the family business?

Speaker 1 I've done that now for years. So it's, it's, that may have been.
They don't seem to feel that way. Well, no, no, no, they don't, but what I'm saying is for years now.

Speaker 3 You've shown them by backing off, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what's what I've done. I've specifically just like not been involved at all.

Speaker 1 Just completely step back and just, you know, if there's like stupid little things, like I'll help out like whenever I'm needed or if I see something that needs to be done, like no problem.

Speaker 1 But, you know,

Speaker 1 it doesn't feel like that door is even like remotely open to even have that be a possibility.

Speaker 3 Also, to be honest, we already worked together with the show. I don't know if I could handle like working together in my business and what that would do to our relationship.

Speaker 3 I just think maybe it is good to keep it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not, I don't, I mean, this in like the most respectful way. Like, I don't really have an interest in like doing anything like as far as like a

Speaker 1 role with her business. Like, I'll help out if and when I'm needed.

Speaker 1 But outside of that, like, there really isn't, if I saw a spot for me, you know, like if I saw something that where i could provide immense value then i might be more interested to say it but as of now i mean

Speaker 1 jesse's just jesse and her dad have done such a good job with the business and putting people in places where where they're successful and doing well but i mean i don't even know where there'd be time right now like we're so busy with press and filming and kids and family and and like we we don't like i don't even know where there's time to add anything, like genuinely.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 We learned throughout the season that the affair happened while you were separated. And then I learned while talking to Jesse last week that the separation idea was your idea.

Speaker 2 Why did you want to kind of portray it as like this happened while we were separated?

Speaker 1 Well, hold on.

Speaker 3 I told them what happened is that during those six months that we were hiding it, you had mentioned, if this ever comes out.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah. I had said that one time.

Speaker 3 Yes, but then when I i got blindsided i remembered that i was like you've got a panic

Speaker 1 yeah yeah um like i said i it was embarrassment like sheer embarrassment like i was like well we could say this or you know whatever it was but it was like just it was just i was just spitballing at the time you know and in the moment like I think that's what she decided to say like as a well it was it was no I definitely I definitely wasn't using as an excuse I remembered you saying that and I was like I think this is what he'll want me to say I know but also I mean it's to protect yourself too.

Speaker 1 No, okay.

Speaker 3 Because if that was the case, I would go with the narrative now. I want people to know the truth.

Speaker 1 Right, right. And what I'm saying is, is I was spitballing ideas.
And I think at the time, I felt so like, I don't know, maybe betrayed that I was like, well,

Speaker 1 maybe me saying something like Sarah will comfort her. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Do you think it felt like less emasculating?

Speaker 1 Well, for sure. I talked a lot about that in that first section.
I wish you guys would have listened in. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Going forward,

Speaker 1 how do you plan on being a supportive partner for Jesse to make her feel the way she needs to feel, whether it's supported, believed in, validated, while, you know, not bringing your baggage into it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, that's what I've been doing, you know, for months now. It's just, it's just a matter of like making sure that her needs are met and like.

Speaker 1 just being supportive and just kind of like letting her letting her blossom because Jesse's so good at this world like you know I think Jesse would make an incredible host for for anything in you know obviously like the Disney family like she would be the best that there is like it hands down I can't think of anyone better so it's just like trying to be supportive and just you know it's hard because a lot of her self-confidence issues like come from me not all of it but but some of it and

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to do everything in my power to just make her feel loved and supported from

Speaker 1 sometimes from a distance and sometimes up close. You know, I love to go on trips with Jesse.
I love to stay at home with the kids and support her that way. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I just, I, I feel like we're on a really good, a really good path now.

Speaker 2 Do you feel that from him?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do. I was going to say, I think that the scariest thing about what's happening now is we've been making progress, but this is going to reopen everything.
It's like the show coming out.

Speaker 3 This will come out. Like we're talking about hard subjects and it could trigger both of us.

Speaker 3 And I think it's natural to feel a little defensive, you know, know, each of us with what happened and what the other person did. But I have seen a lot of progress over the last couple of months.

Speaker 3 And he's definitely like a different person than he was before therapy. I will say that.

Speaker 2 And how do you feel like you, Jesse, are going to make, because you're only getting busier and more famous and, you know, everything else.

Speaker 2 So how do you feel like you're going to make sure he still feels like a top priority?

Speaker 3 I would say even if the quality time isn't as much as it should be, but making sure that time is quality, like making sure when I am with him and the kids, like I'm not on my phone and I'm, I try to do that with my business in general.

Speaker 3 Give 100% to what you're doing at the time. So if I'm at work, I'm 100% at work.
If I'm with my kids or with Jordan, 100% there. And just try to be in the moment.

Speaker 3 That's something I'm really trying to work on because even if it's one night a week that we got to connect or spend time with each other, if that's quality time, then it's worth it. Right.

Speaker 3 So I feel like that's something you would appreciate is just me being more present.

Speaker 1 I think it's, um, I think it's just being intentional, you know? I think it's really easy to like get caught up in like the world and what's going on.

Speaker 1 And I think it's just like doing, I mean, I've seen it, honestly. And like, I, I really appreciate like, it's not perfect.
I'm not perfect, guys. Like, it's not over here.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't want to come in here and be like, oh, we're great. Everything's amazing.
Cause that's not true. That's just not.

Speaker 1 And, but I love that the effort is there because even if she, if, even if there's something that I see where I'm like, well, I wish she would have done this, you know, it's crazy how the universe, like, it's crazy how the next minute she'll do something that I wasn't expecting or this or that.

Speaker 1 And it makes me feel seen. It makes me feel heard.
It makes me feel understood.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we're just, we're just on this path, just putting in as much effort as we can to have the best life we can.

Speaker 2 Before we move on from the two of you, I do,

Speaker 2 I am curious.

Speaker 2 When we spoke, Jesse, you did get emotional talking about your friendships with Macy and Michaela. But you haven't really gotten emotional talking about Jordan.
Yeah. Why not?

Speaker 3 That's something I

Speaker 3 worked through in therapy a lot um i always joke to my showrunner and the producers like starting in season one i'm like i don't cry so just so you know like you'll never see me cry and then season three comes and i cried quite a bit um but for some reason when it comes to jordan i've been very emotionally shut down and i think i learned numbness as a technique because

Speaker 3 I was being treated a certain way and the only way I knew how to react was to shut down.

Speaker 3 So like fight or flight, I would flight and I would shut down and I would like sweep everything under the rug for years. Cause again, I didn't really want to tell tell my friends and family.

Speaker 3 They saw it, but I didn't want to get into it. So I would put on these happy faces.
We would fight every single day, but then I had to go teach a class or run my business or film the show.

Speaker 3 And I had to just be happy, Jesse. But it hurt me in the long run because it made it really hard for me to like show emotion.
I became robotic. And this season really opened me up.

Speaker 3 But for some reason, with Jordan specifically, I'm still very emotionally numb. And I think it's a defense mechanism.
I think it's what I did to protect myself.

Speaker 3 I learned that in my first marriage as well. I learned how to be numb and then I carried that over to this one.

Speaker 3 So I definitely feel like when it comes to romantic situations, that's what I do. So I'm still working through that.

Speaker 1 I think you compartmentalize.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.
Very much so. And that's maybe where I'm like, I'm 100% at work.
I'm 100% at home. I can do that very easily.
So I think I learned how to do that.

Speaker 3 And now in romantic situations for sure, because of my past, I think that's what I do.

Speaker 3 So I've learned to open up a little more with him, but maybe that's why he also felt like he wasn't getting his needs taken care of is because I shut down for sure.

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the season drops.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if you've thought about how the audience is going to react, but the majority of the audience is women.

Speaker 1 And I suspect they're going to have some pretty strong reactions to how you're portrayed and how you spoke to Jesse throughout and some of the things that she talked about, how you treated her.

Speaker 1 Are you prepared for that? And

Speaker 1 how are you going to be able to

Speaker 1 withstand that without taking that out on Jesse?

Speaker 1 and reminding people of the affair and how are you going to go about protecting your relationship, I mean, knowing that, you know, the audience might be very reactive.

Speaker 1 I think that that's my plan is just to focus on my family. Like I'm not

Speaker 1 all these people online can chirp all day. There's going to be people that hate me.
There's going to be people that hate her. I think there's going to be

Speaker 1 a really big, broad spectrum of what people think about what they've been able to see. And I think the best thing that I can do.

Speaker 1 in that instead of like being pissed off or this or that, it's to remember that that's in the past and like what we're doing now is what matters and like turning into one another and not away from one another.

Speaker 3 I think something that I also was thinking about with hate coming our way this season is I actually like don't blame anyone if they say anything to me or to him because in the past, when they've said things to me, I've always like, I need to defend myself.

Speaker 3 But in this situation, I'm like, I did do that. You're right.
Like I did cheat.

Speaker 3 What am I going to do? Defend myself? No. And I hope he would have the same approach of like, yeah, I did do that.
I messed up. Like you have every right to feel that way.
Move on.

Speaker 3 You know, like their opinions don't matter at the end of the day, but I for sure understand why people would think that.

Speaker 1 Do you feel confident and safe that Jordan

Speaker 1 will no longer react to you the way he has in the past?

Speaker 3 Yeah, for the most part. I feel like over the last six months, he's shown me that it's gotten better.

Speaker 3 We've had moments for sure where I'm like, nope, I can see it again, but it's less intense than it was. So I feel like each time it happens, like there's more lessons learned and accountability.

Speaker 3 So it doesn't happen as much.

Speaker 3 The last month or two, especially, it's been a lot better.

Speaker 3 I've told him, I've been very honest, like, I'm in this, you know, situation where we're doing this and I'm trying, but like, like for a while, I was like, I'm one foot out.

Speaker 3 And like, if this happens again, if it even gets there, I'm done. And he knows that.
So I think he knows it couldn't get there.

Speaker 3 But I do feel confident that he's made a lot of changes and therapy's given him tools he needs to not do that. Not saying neither of us are perfect.

Speaker 3 Like I, I told you that like I have a lot of resentment towards him. And sometimes I'll snap and I'll be like snappy snappy because of that.
But I would hope so. Yeah.

Speaker 2 In the six months before

Speaker 2 filming,

Speaker 2 Jesse mentioned that you, there were moments where you

Speaker 2 were threatening to blackmail her with the messages with Marciano. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I know the saying, hurt people, hurt people. Is that kind of where it came from?

Speaker 1 100%. There was no, there was, I was never, ever, and I think that was actually, it was, it's exactly that.
You know, I actually never meant it. It was just a cry for help.
Hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker 1 I was literally just trying, like, be sorry for what you did. Like, be sorry, love me.
Like,

Speaker 1 I'm anxious over here. Like, give me something.

Speaker 2 Did you feel like she wasn't sorry?

Speaker 1 Oh, no. No.
You didn't feel like she wasn't? No.

Speaker 3 I feel like in that time,

Speaker 3 it was very much in those six months about my affair and my affair only. So he was like, love me, be sorry.

Speaker 3 But I was like, wait, I'm really hurt from what you did to me for four years to get me to this headspace. So like, I need you to acknowledge that too.

Speaker 3 And it was both of us not acknowledging each other.

Speaker 1 I don't think that you asked for acknowledgement at that point, really. No, I did.

Speaker 1 Not the same way, not the same way.

Speaker 3 Yeah, not as intense as when I left. That's when the glass hit the wall or when the glass shattered and I was like, okay, I'm done.
But yeah, I feel like we weren't seeing each other's pain for sure.

Speaker 1 That's for sure. I remember,

Speaker 1 remind me what I said to you. Remember, I wrote you that letter after we separated.

Speaker 1 There was a line that you really, and I'm trying to remember it. Hold on.

Speaker 1 This is good.

Speaker 3 This is good. He's like, this will redeem myself.

Speaker 1 No, it doesn't redeem anything, but I just remember

Speaker 1 you really liked it.

Speaker 1 It was something along the lines of like,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 we're both two broken people who made mistakes. Something along those lines.
It's not exact. Yeah, I mean, neither of us are perfect.

Speaker 2 Getting into a little bit of the demean

Speaker 2 of it all, that was your best friend for, let's see, I mean, to us, it seems like your best friend for a while.

Speaker 2 How hard was that for you, Jordan, to see this person that you had let into your home, that you had let, you know, so close to you, try to ruin Jesse's life by planting the like he had sex?

Speaker 1 I think it's probably one of the most disgusting, vile things, not that kind of vile, right?

Speaker 1 That I've ever seen a human being do to see her do what she did to Jesse. Like, I just think, like, I want to know what must have gone on in her life to make her feel justified or that that was okay.

Speaker 1 Or like, it, it honestly is disgusting to me and they open up about the sexual

Speaker 2 marciano being a sexual predator but that was never something that she communicated to you right jesse

Speaker 3 no it the thing is i think the reason she did what she did was because she was trying to hide her own actions and

Speaker 3 i think that's what's interesting about the whole story is like yes there's truth to my story like i did have an affair but she wanted it to look 10 times worse so if anything about her ever came out oh jesse was worse and let me try to hide this and get him on my side.

Speaker 3 And, you know, so yeah, at the time with Italy and all that, I was never told that. It was when cameras came up that it was made to seem that.

Speaker 1 Did you ever have any off-camera conversations with Demi? Just kind of being like, why are you going about it this way?

Speaker 3 No, like about like her like doing that to me.

Speaker 1 Or to you or on, you know, Marciano. It's just like, I don't think anyone.

Speaker 2 She still stands by that, though, today, doesn't she?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean,

Speaker 1 no one here, and I don't think anyone listening thinks Marciano's a good guy. No.

Speaker 1 That being said, this is the way that the words that she is using and the accusations, it's such a tricky and uncomfortable conversation because like everyone here wants to believe women.

Speaker 1 My wife's opened up about being a victim of sexual assault.

Speaker 1 So many women in this cast, so many women listening. And of course, we obviously, you...
we want and should believe women. Yes.

Speaker 1 Just the way Demis seems to be going about it, there's no perfect victim is a way to kind of justify some of the things that she has done and said with Marciano that don't add up in your women's eyes.

Speaker 1 It's just, it seems really potentially destructive because it creates these conversations of

Speaker 1 having doubt with people

Speaker 1 when we should be having conversations about believing women. And

Speaker 1 yeah, I just like, have you had a conversation like that with Demi about like, you know, what are you doing?

Speaker 3 So during season three, when this was all unfolding, our only conversations were on camera. And there was that one sit down we had in a restaurant.
It was the first time we spoke.

Speaker 3 And I remember saying all that and going into it pretty like heated. And she completely turned it on me and was like, you're victim shaming.
And at the time, I was like, I'm going to look terrible.

Speaker 3 I have to give into this because if people take her side or the audience believes her, I'm going to look bad. So I just gave in.
And that's why you see us leave on.

Speaker 3 somewhat okay terms because I was like, how the hell am I going to fight with victim shaming? You know, so I didn't.

Speaker 3 But then we've had conversations, you know, since that you may see in the future where I'm like, okay, maybe you see me say it a little more.

Speaker 3 And I think that she

Speaker 3 is standing firm on what she's saying, but there's been lies we've caught her in. There's proof of things.
There's so much that I think that the truth will always come out.

Speaker 3 And I think she's going about this a horrendous way. And I think that karma will catch up.

Speaker 2 Where does your friendship stand with Brett?

Speaker 1 Not blaming you, but I feel like their dynamic, Jesse and Demi's dynamic, has just made it so uncomfortable for both of us

Speaker 1 to where we just don't really have a relationship. We used to see each other at the gym

Speaker 1 because we go to the same gym every day, but

Speaker 1 I've just been going earlier in the morning just because I just don't want to, it's just, I don't want to start my day with that. It's not that like there's necessarily an issue between us.

Speaker 1 We've had lots of conversations, but it's probably been, goll, a couple months.

Speaker 2 And why was he driving by your house taking photos?

Speaker 3 I actually did talk to Demi about that once we like figured things out. And she said it was her.
She was like, I was going crazy. I quit the show and I wanted to know what was going on.

Speaker 3 And so she made him do it.

Speaker 1 Okay. Crazy.
Just being honest about that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 At least she was honest.

Speaker 1 Before we wrap,

Speaker 1 do you feel like you've forgiven Jesse for the emotional affair? Do I feel like I've forgiven Jesse for the emotional affair? Yes, today I do.

Speaker 3 What does that mean? Just today. Not tomorrow.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, as far as like, it was a big, huge deal. And I think that

Speaker 1 her being here and being willing to work past a lot of these things, like, shows me effort. And as long as the effort is shown, then, then yes.
Who do you think has more to show, you or her?

Speaker 1 More to show? Yeah. Like effort.
I guess, you know, it's just like, I guess one thing, I guess, overall in this conversation, I think I maybe struggled a little bit with empathizing with you.

Speaker 1 It's just, you definitely, you guys have done the work. You're taking accountability, but there's just a little bit of like,

Speaker 1 it was a response to what she did, you know? And yeah, it's just, it's really hard for me to know how you spoke to Jesse

Speaker 1 and how you've treated Jesse. And I guess I would want a little bit more like, I'm so disgusted with how I did that.
And while it doesn't make it okay for what Jesse did, I fucking get it.

Speaker 1 You know, I really get it. I, if I were in her shoes, if I got it treated this way, if I spoke to my wife this way, I, cause I, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine doing that now.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? Where there's a little bit of like, I agree with that. I am, I am disgusted.
I should have never done it. There's no excuse for it.

Speaker 1 But on the contrary, there's also no excuse for what she did.

Speaker 3 That's his point is that you can't say it without like throwing in what I did.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, I know. Well, it sounded like maybe I misheard you.
Listen, people cheat for all different reasons.

Speaker 1 But I kind of feel like, and you know, sometimes there's a lot of people who are. It sounds like you're making an excuse for it.
I mean,

Speaker 1 if I'm being honest, I get the position Jesse was in. I mean, if I believe Jesse was in the city, did you get the position I was in where I didn't, I wasn't, you know, I tried to explain that.

Speaker 1 Maybe it, maybe it didn't come across well. Listen, I, I can't, I know, I, I understand not feeling supportive.
I understand, you know, you could be emasculated. I, I don't understand

Speaker 1 how

Speaker 1 you could have said and done some of the things that you said. I, I,

Speaker 1 I think everyone deserves grace. I think people make mistakes.
I think people can learn. I think you can be a better man for it.

Speaker 1 I think you can, you can, I think there's a world where you can say, I'm not that person anymore. I used to have been that person.

Speaker 1 But no, there is no excuse for it. To answer your question very directly, yes, correct.

Speaker 1 I think I might have, my brain might have made up what you were saying sure but i get yeah i yeah i i'm not making excuses for jesse but i get it i get why she felt so trapped and so lost and so like alone because like man to man it was your job whatever whatever she did to you or however you felt unsupported more than anything it's your job to make her feel safe it's your it's your job to make her feel like yeah i mean i was for me but i you know and i remember just so you know, during that time, that's what I was trying to do, but I think it was too far gone at that time, genuinely.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Do you remember that?

Speaker 3 What?

Speaker 1 Like, right before you had the affair, like, I was, before the affair even happened, I was at that place, but it was too little, too late. Just so you know.
It doesn't make it right.

Speaker 1 It doesn't make it better.

Speaker 2 You were trying to put the pieces back together.

Speaker 1 Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 Yes. Do you remember that, Jess?

Speaker 3 Not really. I'm trying to remember like what you mean.

Speaker 1 You don't remember our conversations?

Speaker 3 I think we were always just up and down.

Speaker 1 There was always a lot of conversations like from

Speaker 1 September.

Speaker 3 I genuinely, I don't remember the time frame. I just know we were, we would have good moments, we have bad moments.

Speaker 1 No, no, that whole month, I could, I already knew that she was in a place where not, not something like that was a possibility because that was just

Speaker 3 you knew I had checked out, probably.

Speaker 1 There was a checkout point, and that's when I was rushing back.

Speaker 3 And again, it felt like it was me. Yeah, maybe like, oh, you realize I'm checking out.
So now you're trying to change. Right.

Speaker 1 So like, that's, that's what was, you know, again, not making excuses for it, but I'm just saying, like, I remember very specifically, no, feeling that, like, feeling that, like, that checkout point and from, and then chasing before the affair even happened.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I guess it's, you know, again, like, we're, we're talking semantics here, I guess, but like, I would, like, friend to friend, I would feel like for you guys to make this work and for you to truly take accountability, I get that what she did caused a lot of pain and you guys will continue to work through that and process that.

Speaker 1 But to truly own your behavior leading up up to that point, in a way I feel like requires you to like

Speaker 1 really understand why she did what she did.

Speaker 1 And then while you still have the right to be hurt by it, but to a point where you would never throw it in her face or remind her of it or be like, but you did this.

Speaker 1 I think we both still, I think we both have, have still had that happen because there's been times. where, well, you had an affair or vice versa.
Well, you treated me this way for four years.

Speaker 1 I don't think either of us are at that place yet. Completely.

Speaker 1 If I'm going to be transparent. That's fair.
That's fair. I've heard that line multiple times.
Well, you treat me this way for four years. You treated me this way.

Speaker 3 I told Natalie that it's almost been harder for me, the better he's gotten because I'm resentful. I'm now seeing the potentials there.
And I asked you for four years and you couldn't do it.

Speaker 3 But now that we're on camera, you can or now that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And now it's flip-flop too for me.
Right. It's, it's, it's hard.
It's hard. And that's what therapy's for, right? Yeah.
I just don't, I don't want to blow smoke up your ass.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I appreciate appreciate it.

Speaker 1 I'm being honest with you. It's, I think that there, they're still, both of us are kind of like,

Speaker 1 and sometimes it's more me, and sometimes it's more her.

Speaker 2 Her dropping Nadi Kara, how does that make you feel?

Speaker 1 You know, at first, I was really upset, but I understand that it's a hard name to pronounce. There's some things in the future that you'll

Speaker 1 see and learn about why that's so important

Speaker 1 to me and why

Speaker 1 her dropping it was really hurtful. But I also like want her to shine and I want her to have every opportunity that comes her way.
And my last name's hard to pronounce.

Speaker 1 I think that it's tough the timing on the heels of the affair, right? But outside of that, I get it. I understand it.
And it did take me a minute to get to that place.

Speaker 1 Well, we have to wrap.

Speaker 1 I appreciate you guys coming and opening up and being vulnerable. You know, I'm wishing you guys nothing but the best.
I don't know what the future holds for you guys.

Speaker 1 I'm sure more will be revealed in season four and all that stuff. But outside of the show,

Speaker 1 I know obviously these are topics that many couples deal with. And so thanks for opening up.
And I just really, like man to man, I hope that like we never hear of an episode. And

Speaker 1 I just think, you know, you're in a position now as a guy, as a public figure, to be a good rodomodel, not only to your daughters, but like for a lot of guys out there watching.

Speaker 1 And I think there's just too many situations where men justify speaking to women a certain way. And I really feel like there is no justification.
And you are going to be hurt in the future.

Speaker 1 Jesse is going to hurt you in the future. You're going to hurt Jesse.
Yep.

Speaker 1 But I do think we can draw a line in the sand by

Speaker 1 how we speak to our partners. That line's been drawn for you.
Yeah. So, well, I certainly hope so.
And

Speaker 1 I appreciate you guys opening up and wish you guys nothing but the best. Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us. Sorry I asked that question.
That made you mad. No, that's all right.
I'm glad.

Speaker 1 I'm glad we're here.

Speaker 3 We're a conversation we needed to have. So, yes.
Thank you guys. All right.
Thanks, guys.