Episode 86 - Debbie Cook

Hello, before the episode begins properly, just a little announcement: we're doing a live show in London at the London Podcast Festival, which we've now been doing every year for a few years, and it's always a lot of fun.

And it's on at 4:30 on Sunday, the 18th of September.

It's at King's Place in King's Cross.

I will put a link in the show description and also on social media to find tickets.

Also, if you can't make it to London, because for example, you live in Australia,

you can watch it live streamed.

And I'll put a link to the tickets for the live stream on there as well.

And it also might be that if you're in Australia, 4.30pm

in the UK is quite a bad time to watch something.

So if you buy a streaming ticket, you can actually watch it for a week after the show has happened live.

So I'd love to see you there.

They're always really good fun.

Why not come along?

Sunday, the 18th of September, half past four in the afternoon.

Lovely stuff.

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In this month's episode, we speak to someone who needs no introduction.

She shot to celebrity status after winning the 2020 Royal Suffolk Show Touch the Bull competition.

It's Debbie Cook.

Hi, my name's Debbie Cook and I won a bull at the Royal Suffolk Show.

Thanks so much for talking with me today, Debbie.

Now, obviously, I'm sure the listeners will know your story, but just to recap for any listeners who don't know,

back in 2020, you went to the Royal Suffolk Show.

I guess you just went looking for a good afternoon out.

You weren't thinking you were going to win a bull and become a celebrity.

I had no idea that that was the day that would change my life forever.

You know, I was having a hard time.

I just lost my job.

And I just wandered along there and saw this touch the bull competition, which in turn changed my entire life.

And what was your job before you were made redundant?

I used to work in a goth shop in Brighton.

So I was doing piercings for people untrained.

You know, I liked it, but unfortunately they had to let me go.

I mean,

this interview isn't really about this, but

was it the kind of, we've got to let you go because we need to downsize or was it like, we need to let you go because you've done something, you know, really painful to a customer?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it was actually both.

They needed to downsize because I'd done something incredibly painful, which was set the shop on fire.

So they actually, the the whole of the top floor was gone, and it ended up just being a ground floor shop after that, which they've lent into, you know, and I completely respect.

There's no hard feelings from my side anyway.

Looking for something to take her mind off her recent arson attack and the subsequent termination of her employment, Debbie went to the Royal Suffolk Show, a classic agricultural show with competitions, huge vegetables, and sinister farmers drinking too much lager and saying suggestive things to the woman from St.

John's ambulance.

Debbie entered the touch the bull competition.

The rules were simple.

At the beginning, 20 people touch a bull and the last one left touching the bull wins the bull.

And were she to win, she'd not just win a bull, but a prize Staffordshire fat hoof.

It was best in show bull

or biz bull as we called it

and you know he

he did not like to be touched at first as well.

So he was sort of trying to buck people off.

You know, a few people got kicked in the stomach,

which was a lot of fun.

Well, that's right.

It was to begin with.

It was almost like a kind of bucking Bronco kind of thing.

You know, the thing you might get in a kind of nightclub, you know, inflatable floor, inflatable bull, you try and sit on it, whatever.

But in this case, the bull's not inflatable and the floor certainly isn't inflatable.

Absolutely.

The floor was actually concrete, which is quite strange for a county show.

But they wanted to do something different, you know, and I fully respected that.

And I think that gave it more stakes as well.

You know, sorry for the pun there,

but it did make it really intense, especially those first few hours.

Well, I think Bizbull really kind of showed who he wanted to keep there.

Because there was only a few of us left after the first sort of three hours.

Well, yeah, so there were 20 people to begin with.

I believe the bull injured 16 in the first couple of hours.

A couple of deaths as well, I think.

That's right.

Yeah, two deaths, 14 injuries, 12 still surviving.

So I guess that makes four deaths, actually.

But some of those could have been to natural causes after they'd been kicked by the bull.

I know that because there are a couple of lawsuits ongoing.

We all keep in touch.

When you first came to touch the bull, obviously you're better off near the front rather than the back, right?

Because a lot of those injuries were just hoof in the face injuries, basically, hoof in the chest, hoof in the face.

In some cases, hoof hoof through the face you know right through just like a

like a hole punch you know like chucking a bowling ball at a trifle just bam

yeah before we get on to that i think i want to talk a bit more about you know who who were you before all this you've gone on record as saying that that that winning this competition has changed your life but but who are you before that that's that's what i want to i want to learn about the real debbie cook well

you know i think that's a really great question because I don't think I knew who I was before this.

You know, I was just sort of wandering around going from job to job.

I'd done media studies at uni.

You know, that should give you some idea.

Yeah,

you may as well have just thrown 20 grand into a river.

Exactly.

You know, I was completely listless.

I didn't know what made me happy.

Unfortunately, as we've heard, one of the things that did make her happy was arson attacks on her places of work.

It's a really weird thing.

These places, you know, I just kept setting them on fire.

And obviously, none of this was my fault.

It wasn't like I went out of my way to set them on fire, but something in me

set them on fire.

And I don't know who that was, you know.

And that's a common thing with delusional arson lists, which is what I was eventually diagnosed with.

Okay, that's that's an official diagnosis.

It is.

since since winning touch the ball, I have understood this about myself.

But prior to that, I didn't know that a lot of businesses have been ruined because of what I've done.

And I'm aware of that.

So let's talk a bit about then, you know, as you say, you've been diagnosed with being a delusional narcissist.

This, I believe, is linked to kind of feelings of low self-esteem, a bad start in life, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Where does Debbie Cook come from?

That's what I'm interested in in this interview, really getting down to who you are at your core.

You're not just someone who burns down shoe shops and won a bull.

No.

So I think I can sort of trace back my low self-esteem to never knowing who my father was.

I had a really small amount of information about him from my mother.

I knew that she'd met him in Marbea.

I know that he was a balloon artist.

And that's all.

I knew.

So I knew that he was in Marbea in the summer of 1990 and he he was a balloon artist.

And essentially it was a kind of one night fling, basically.

Yeah, one to seven night thing, she always said.

And I know that the reason I was conceived is because he used a balloon as a condom.

And obviously it didn't work because that's not what they're for.

Okay.

And do you feel this had an impact on who you became as an adult?

Do you think?

Definitely.

I

always

veered away from balloon parties, balloon-themed events i didn't even really like animals i would i would kind of because that's one step from a balloon animal absolutely um and if ever i saw a blimp in the sky um i would run inside because i just was running away from who i really was you know half half of me is this man who i've never met and i didn't want to know this half of me and by going and touching a bull, you know, which isn't a balloon animal bull, but it's halfway there.

It's a bull.

It's a big step for you.

Massive.

Absolutely huge step.

And even to go to the Royal Suffolk Show was a huge step for me.

And I think that was the first few steps that I was taking towards being who I really am.

And I was so ashamed of who I was.

I had nowhere to turn to other than to just grab this bull by the horn, literally.

It's a metaphor, but it's also literal.

And this was kind of a last chance for you, right?

That's right.

And I think, you know, if if I'm going to get really real with you, that day I'd hit my rock bottom, the day in June, 2020, when I, when I happened upon the Royal Suffolk Show.

Because there's a lot of dry hay there as well.

There absolutely is.

And I, you know, obviously I was drawn to it.

I think the thing is, I was so lonely.

every every relationship i had i you know i burned those bridges quite literally i was really i was living on my own at the time in a bed sit um because obviously i'd had to move so many times because i burned so many of my flats down i was incredibly lonely and do you think subconsciously you would you were drawn to that county show

because there was a good opportunity there to really get some big fires going um or was it something else i didn't even know why i was being called to the royal suffolk show i didn't know why but i knew i was and when i looked into bisbull's eyes I could tell there was something more to this and I knew I had to not let go.

I knew I had to stay there because this was my calling.

And also, at the show, there were a number of competitions you could have taken part in.

There was the tug of war.

There was, you know, a lot of other bull competitions.

There was the

guessing the weight of a bull.

Yeah.

There's also the one where the bull guesses your weight, you know, and they get a prize, which I liked because it's the other way around.

You know, why do we get to have all the fun?

Yeah.

But yeah, I, for some reason, I just think touch the bull, it was just, it was something that I knew.

If I really touch this bull, if I don't let go of this bull, I'm not going to start any fires.

You can't set a bull on fire.

It's physically impossible.

I looked into it.

You can't.

They're too dense.

You've tried.

Of course I've tried.

Yeah.

You know, how can I not try?

Since then, me and Bizbull, obviously Bizbull lives with me now.

And, you know, of course I've tried to set them on fire at my lowest points and my highest points.

You can't, they're too dense.

They're too full of water.

There's too many stomachs.

Well, let's talk about

how long you held on to that bull for again i think most of our listeners will be aware of what happened but um you eventually won the competition in november 2021 so that's

about 14 months later yeah

do you have a sense of how long the organizers thought the competition would would would take you'd assume they thought it would finish that afternoon right You're absolutely right.

They definitely thought that.

And all I could tell from their confused and what seemed like appalled faces was how impressed they were.

Because you weren't letting go.

We weren't letting go.

We were not going to let go.

You know,

we were grabbing onto this bull, this biz bull.

And, you know, come rain or shine,

we just knew we had to stay there.

There was no way that once they brought down the bunting and they took the Victoria Sponges home, we were going to leave.

And at this stage, of course, there's four of you.

There's yourself,

James Whiteley, and then there's the German twins, who remind me, how long did they last?

Another day.

So it was by day two.

It was just down to me and James.

And I assume then that, you know, people are dismantling the county show apparatus around you.

In a way, it's no longer the county show.

It's just two private individuals grabbing onto a ball.

In the middle of a car park, yeah.

Yeah.

The final two were Debbie and James Whiteley, an older gentleman who had travelled down from County Durham in order to compete.

So it was just us and Bizball there.

And that's when you really get in touch with something.

You know, that's when it's make or break time.

And this might be a bit indelicate, really, but I think this is what all the listeners will be thinking.

How do you deal with life's essentials?

When you're touching a ball, I'm talking about eating.

I'm talking about defecation.

Sure.

One thing to mention is you do get a five-minute break every four hours.

So you can pop to the woods, do what you need to do and come back.

That's the defecation sorted.

With life's essentials, I didn't eat for a week.

I didn't eat for a full week.

But by then, we were getting some media attention.

Right.

And with media attention, comes the fans.

People would drive up and give us food.

It was fantastic and after a few months we were getting more and more attention online social media also the the local news and wider as well so we started having brand partnerships with people because i believe you know you were the face of mitsubushi i think quite early on exactly so um you know we were we were there there was a motorbike then me then the bull then james and he was being sponsored by honda at the time so he there was next to a honda yeah you know there was a lot there was a lot of stuff eventually that

we got surrounded with.

And to be honest with you, too much stuff, because we weren't really in a position to say no.

We needed those people to bring us water and food.

And these brand partnerships you were striking up,

were you doing that in return just for food and water or were they paying you with money?

Oh, they were paying me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not that you could really use the money.

No, exactly.

There was nothing I could do with it.

The one thing that James and I did do was we bought a Portaloo,

which we parked just

behind Bisbull,

because frankly, the bushes were becoming unseemly.

Eventually, we actually built a little BNB there.

I've looked at the TripAdvisor reviews for the BNB.

It's a real spread.

People saying five stars, brilliant.

Really enjoy being so close to the media scrum.

Some people saying, you know, there's a lot of literal bullshit.

you know, coating the floors on the way in.

There is no staff.

And I resent that because, you know, there is staff.

It's just that it happens to be other bulls.

And, you know, if you don't want the BB experience of the bull and bull, we call it, and you don't want to be covered in bullshit and you don't want to be served by bulls, then what are you doing?

You know, stay somewhere else.

You know, frankly, we don't need

that kind of customer.

Beef and Dairy Network podcast listener, Melissa Best, actually stayed at the BB during the competition and gave us this review.

I don't think I realised that the BB was actually run

by balls.

And now I don't like to complain, I'm not a complainer, but I suppose that presented a few challenges.

Too many to mention, really.

But there is one incident that sticks out in my mind.

So after we checked into our room, which was absolutely caked in dirty hay, by the way, I mean I don't like to complain, but I'm afraid it was.

Myself and my husband went downstairs to the lounge for a drink.

Now, I ordered a gin and tonic with lemon, and my husband ordered a pint of lager.

And I specifically remember he ordered draft lager rather than a bottle, so there was really no excuse for what happened next.

Instead of pouring him his drink from the draught,

The ball behind the bar turned round and kicked my husband square in the chest and his lungs came out of his back.

Also, my GNT was a bit flat.

I mean, I don't know how to complain, but there it is.

I have to say, though, it wasn't all bad.

The highlight for me was that every four hours, both Debbie and James came into the BNB to defecate.

And that was really special.

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Now, obviously, it wasn't only you touching the ball.

It was you and James Whiteley.

There were lots of rumours at the time about what kind of relationship you had, whether you were getting on or not.

Did you have a good relationship?

Not to begin with.

James was very standoffish, as was i i think i i was more of a closed book quite an introvert

um and you know just thinking about setting fire to stuff all of the time and i think he could tell that my mind was somewhere else and he did not want to have a relationship with the bizbull and he didn't want to have a relationship with me but that all had to change because whilst this is an endurance competition it's more about your mental endurance than it is about your physical endurance.

You can get around the stuff, you know, you can learn to sleep with your eyes open, standing up and your arms up.

You can.

What you can't learn to do is not talk to anyone or be completely lonely for that long, you know, because you've just got your own thoughts to deal with and the thoughts that you're pushing on to a bull's eyes.

which are dark.

Have you ever looked into a bull's eyes?

Because there's nothing but sadness.

And you can kind of project your own sadness into a bull's eyes can't you it's like you when you look into a bull's eyes you're looking into your own eyes you are because they are actually mirrored as well a bull's eyes

yeah and so you know you're looking into your own reflection you're looking into your own heart really so james and i became very down and i think you know we both realized that we something needed to change.

Not only this, this relationship as well, I want to make it clear.

We weren't constantly arguing with each other, but the media and all the attention we were getting was playing us off against each other, going into our past, you know.

That's it.

And you became instant tabloid fodder.

You were on the front pages.

Who's going to win?

How long is this going to go on for?

I could handle that.

But when they started going into our pasts, that's what really got to me.

And they, they outed me as a bastard

of a single mother, of a Marbayan fling.

And you'd think that these days, obviously, there's no shame in

having never met your father.

It seems like quite an old-fashioned attitude for that to be a source of shame.

But sadly, it is the kind of thing that the tabloids will run with.

Exactly.

And they did, you know, they knew how to get to me.

I'm a very private person.

That's all had to change because you've got to kind of lean into that.

So I very much leaned into, okay, yeah, my mum did have a fling in Marbea and that's how I was conceived.

Yes, it was with a balloon artist.

Yes, she never knew his name.

Yes, he used a balloon instead of a condom.

And that's, you know, we've all got our origin story.

You want to make a movie out of it?

Call my agent.

But the fact is, it's nobody's business.

And it made me very angry.

And James was going through a similar thing.

And it actually spurred us on to really connect.

Interesting.

Because, yeah, you know, the whole balloon animal thing, it sort of kicked off this like nationwide hunt for your father,

which you didn't ask for.

No.

And obviously, you know, that's not a lot to go on.

Who was in Marbea

in June 1990?

Who was a balloon artist?

Actually, you wouldn't think it, but hundreds of thousands of men meet that description.

So if you're just literally just using the numbers, just trying to...

work you know in a kind of guess who way of just knocking down the tiles of people who couldn't have been your father you're still left with with hundreds hundreds of thousands of men have that exact story um and people started coming forward to visit you often coming from abroad you know i believe there was a moment where 20

all on the same plane 20 japanese balloon artists all claimed to be your father yeah and you know obviously i wanted to believe it who doesn't want to be japanese but you know at some point you've got to look in a bull's eye and know that you're not a japanese woman.

And I had to confront that.

Now, I think I'm right in saying that as things moved on, as

the two of you came under so much more pressure,

there was a moment where actually

things began to thaw and you were able to have a relationship.

It was actually an amazing journey because at one point.

When I was doing this, when I was looking into the bull's eye and looking back at myself,

I realized I wasn't looking back at myself.

I was looking through the bull's eye, through its other eye, at James.

And that's what I realized that he was my father.

Now,

everyone, you know, this all happened and was played out in the news and all this.

So, that won't be a surprise to many people listening.

We know how it all ended.

He is your father.

Yeah.

Do you think he

did?

He know from the beginning?

A part of him knew, I'm sure.

And I think Bisbull knew.

I think Bisbull knew all along.

I think that's why he kicked off all those people in the beginning.

Something happened that day.

You know, Bisbull let me see through his brain out of his other eye at my dad.

That was the only way that I could understand who my real father was.

Because you look at us side by side, we've got the same face.

It's very obvious once you know very it's one of those things once you see it you can't unsee it you know like feminism i would say if you if you shaved your head um put in an earring and grew a beard and had that eye patch that he has to wear

and maybe sort of dressed like him so the the female body inspector t-shirt uh and and the crocs you're looking at you're looking at james whiteley 100 you know and i'm proud of that and i think if i'd really paid attention to him rather than thinking about setting off fires every two seconds, I would have realized that he was making bull balloon animals the entire time we were there and setting them off into the sky because he, you know, was making them out of, he had a helium canister.

That's the only thing he brought with him that day.

I never looked that far, you know, because he's on the other side of the bull, which is actually the title of my autobiography.

So you're looking through the Biz Bull's eye.

It's kind of bouncing off his brain.

You're seeing out of his other eye.

And through that prism, it somehow makes it all clear.

It pulls away all of everything else.

And all you can see is like, this guy is my dad.

And then I assume you, you know, you look up from the bull and you look at him just through your own eyes.

And I assume he looks back at you.

Does he know at that moment that you know?

At that moment, we both had a full understanding of what was happening.

I know that because he just smiled at me

and said, there's no one else I'd rather lose to than my own daughter,

which was incredibly emotional.

And I wanted to, at that point, let go of Bisbull and just give him a big hug.

And I think he could tell, because to stop me from doing that, he engulfed the rest of the helium, what was in that helium canister.

He just kind of swallowed it, like just opened the canister and

then it went, made himself

into

a helium balloon, let go of Bisbull and floated away.

And I never saw him again.

James was found almost six months after he had let go of the bull and floated away.

He was found in Iowa in the USA, where his dead body, still full of helium, had been dressed as a cowboy and was floating next to the forecourt of a used car dealership.

A crude mechanical contraption had been set up to make his arm wave.

Luckily, his wife Marie said that coincidentally it had been his wish that after he died he should be filled with helium and turned into a floating waving cowboy outside of a car dealership.

Funny old world, isn't it?

Funny,

funny old world.

looked into a cow's eyes

I felt so much calm

I looked into

the

eyes

It told me the truth

Sometimes you can't handle the truth.

Stay away from the balls of

truth,

let the boat be your guide.

He flew away with a tear in his eye, you know, and gas in his cheeks.

And I'd won.

I owned a bull and I knew who my father was.

A bittersweet feeling, I imagine.

He was happy.

As he went away, he was happy.

And

he did that so I would win because he knew I was about to let go and give him a cuddle.

That is an incredible moment of sacrifice.

I guess many listeners will be thinking, why did he string this out for, you know, 16 months?

Why didn't he just tell you day one, hey, I'm your father?

I'm going to let you win this bull.

Now I look back on it.

I think he was trying to tell me.

You know, he was making these balloon animals.

He was saying, I think I'm your dad.

He was saying that he lived in Marbea.

He was saying, you're my daughter.

And he was saying all this stuff.

But I wasn't listening, you know, I was just thinking, I want to set this bull on fire.

I wasn't ready to hear it.

Right.

The fact that the B and B is called the father and daughter B and B, that

was a clue, I think, wasn't it?

Yeah.

And obviously, I just thought he meant a bull and a cow.

You know, a bull and his baby daughter, a cow, a dairy cow.

That's what it is.

It's a B and B, bull and bull, bull and cow.

Because it was cow themed, but that made sense.

Exactly.

That made sense.

And I think, you know, had I been a bit more on the ball,

again, excuse the pun, I would have maybe picked up on it a bit more.

You know, every balloon he made was a picture of me and him or, you know, stuff from my childhood, happy birthdays for all of the birthdays he'd missed.

He was trying to make it clear to me, but I wasn't listening.

And there's a lesson in that.

So, you know, the Debbie Cook of 2022 is a very different woman, I imagine, than the Debbie Cook of 2020.

You know, you've got this huge public profile, you've still got the Mitchabushi gig, and after your father floated away, you're now the face of Honda as well, which doesn't make much business sense, I think, for either of those companies.

But, you know, who am I to tell them how to do their advertising?

But you're hugely popular.

You've got your book coming out.

Biz Bull's got his own radio show, which I've got to say, again, a pretty confusing listen, but,

you know, keep going with that.

Yeah.

It's Monday morning here on GC FM, and so you know what that means?

It's time for the big Monday mix with the Biz Bull.

Music, news, and chat, all presented by a bull, right here on Juicy FM.

Get him out of it!

Get him out of it!

Get him out of it!

Get him out of it!

Oh

These competitions change people's lives.

And, you know, that's the message I'm trying to really get out there today: don't be afraid.

Go out there, do a touch the ball, do a guess my weight, do something like that, because you really can change your life.

It's never too late to look in a bull's eye and see yourself for who you really are.

Great.

Well, Debbie, that's a wonderful place to finish.

Thank you so much and give my best to the Biz Bull.

Thank you.

A huge thanks to Debbie Cook for that interview.

Debbie's autobiography, he was making bull balloon animals the entire time we were there and setting them off into the sky because he was, you know, he was making them out of, he had a helium canister, it's the only thing he brought with him that day.

I never looked that far because he was the other side of the bull.

is out next week.

So, that's what we've got time for this month.

But for more beef and dairy news, get over to the website now, where you'll find all the usual stuff, as well as our off-topic section, where this month we run down the top 10 ways to convince someone that you're Richard Attenborough, even though you aren't and he is dead.

So, until next time, beef out.

Thanks to Lola Rose Maxwell, Clarissa Maycock, Mike Kozniak, and Linnea Sage.

And thank you for listening.

And just a little reminder, again, as I said at the beginning, we're doing a live show in London on Sunday, the 18th of September at 4.30pm.

What better way to spend a Sunday afternoon than in the company of other network members and the network podcast live on stage?

Tickets are available now, and hope to see you there.

Hi, my name is Graham Clark, and I'm one half of the podcast Stop Podcasting Yourself, a show that we've recorded for many, many years.

And at the moment, instead of being in person, we're recording remotely and you wouldn't even notice.

You don't even notice the lag.

That's right, Graham.

And

the great thing about this.

Go ahead.

No, you go ahead.

Okay.

Okay, go ahead.

And you can listen to us every week on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your podcasts.

Hi, it's me, Dave Hill from Before, here to tell you about my brand new show on Maximum Fun, the Dave Hill Good Time Hour, which combines my old Maximum Fun show, Dave Hill's podcasting incident, with my old radio show, the Damn Dave Hill Show, into one new futuristic program from the future.

If you like delightful conversation with incredible guests, technical difficulties, and actual phone calls from real-life listeners.

You've just hit a street called Easy.

I'm also joined by my incredible co-host, the boy criminal Chris Gersbeck.

Say hi, Chris.

Hey, Dave, it's really great.

That's good enough, Chris.

And New Jersey chicken rancher Des.

Say hi, Des.

Hey, Dave.

The Dave Hill Good Time Hour.

Brand new episodes every Friday on Maximum Fun.

Plus, the show's not even an hour, it's 90 minutes.

Take that, stupid rules.

We nailed it.

MaximumFun.org.

Comedy and Culture.

Artist owned, Audience Supported.