Dr. Abby Hasberry: Navigating Adoption as an Adoptee and Birth Mother

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Speaker 1 Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Kate and Ty Break It Down. Today we have an awesome guest who I'm super excited to speak with, Dr.
Abby.

Speaker 2 Dr. Abby, thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 I like to always start off with if you can kind of talk about who you are,

Speaker 1 kind of a little bit of your story and your journey, just to kind of kick things off.

Speaker 3 Sure. So I am both a transracial adoptee and a birth mother.

Speaker 3 And so I am here kind of talking about those experiences as a teenage birth mother as well as a transracial adoptee.

Speaker 3 But I'm also a therapist and my primary clients, I guess are adoptees and birth parents and I specifically started working as a therapist in that realm because I found that there weren't any that I could find in my area for me and for other people and so I did a whole career switch I used to be a principal and educator before that and did a whole career switch based around the fact that there were not enough therapists that were really adoption informed and understood adoption as trauma.

Speaker 3 And so I now speak a lot and have written a memoir about my experience, but just really to change the narrative about adoptions and really get the truth out there through lived experience and research both.

Speaker 2 So as far as like getting the truth out there,

Speaker 2 what would that look like? What does that sound like to you if you can kind of like summarize it for people who don't really know what that means?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I think in two words, informed consent.

Speaker 3 I think that that is something that's absolutely been historically missing in the adoption narrative is understanding the trauma that would ensue, understanding the grief, understanding all of the effects and attachment, and not just for the child but also for the birth parents and the adoptive parents too.

Speaker 3 They often aren't told to even do their own work before adopting and so there's just so much narrative about like this is going to be a great life for your child.

Speaker 3 You're doing all of these things that are going to be so super for them.

Speaker 3 But really the truth is that it's not a better life. It's just a different life.
that this child gets.

Speaker 3 And if adoptive parents, if the industry, if birth parents all understood that there would be a lot of different outcomes.

Speaker 3 I know personally for me, if I had had a path laid out for me at all that showed how I would be supported, I would not have relinquished my child.

Speaker 3 And so that was as easy as this is where we're getting diapers. This is where the crib is going to be bought

Speaker 3 next week. Like this, just a plan of any sort would have changed my whole mind about what I was doing.

Speaker 3 And so informed consent is like the thing that I really preached about.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think, you know, just what you were talking about hits me a lot.
And I feel like it took me years.

Speaker 1 Like, I feel like I had to get out of my own fog as a birth mom. Yes.
You know, and

Speaker 1 what really got me was like, wow, I never, you know, during the whole process, you're right.

Speaker 1 All they say is, you know, you're going to, you're, you're creating this life for your child and you get to pick everything for them and all these things.

Speaker 1 But I never once was told about the statistics of mental health with birth parents. I never was told about like the pain and the sorrow that you will carry for a lifetime.
Like it never goes away.

Speaker 1 You know, you, and I think that was the hardest thing for me was just like, it was just wrapped up in this pretty little bow and set on my lap, but none of the hard stuff was talked about.

Speaker 1 And that's something that I struggle with to this day, like knowing that this is a pain and this is just something that I'm going to have to carry for the rest of my life is sometimes some days are harder than others to deal with that.

Speaker 3 Like, absolutely.

Speaker 1 And you're, and I, and so as I got out of my own fog and just dealing with all of these emotions and feelings and stuff, I looked back at it and I was like, I don't, I don't think I really fully understood what I was signing up for.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
It's the one thing that me and her always talk about. We're like, you know, we were so young, and you, you can relate since you were a teen mom as well.

Speaker 2 It's like, when you're that age, you're so impressionable. And like, you're, especially when you come from a background that doesn't have any like normal parents or, or like mentors.

Speaker 2 And so you're just listening to this, the agency. you're listening to everyone telling you that you're doing such a great thing.

Speaker 2 And so you don't even like allow yourself to like really go to the other side of it.

Speaker 2 And I feel like anytime that me and her like would question it or we would think about the decision, like we always had some other thing saying, well, you know, that's kind of, you know, it might be selfish to parent.

Speaker 2 And I remember, remember thinking in my head, like, wow, I guess you're right. What a selfish thing to choose to be a parent when I'm not in a position that I can be one.

Speaker 2 But I think that comes down to a big problem that we're not in a position to be one. So how do we help as a society?

Speaker 2 You know, it's not right that women feel like they don't have the resources enough to parent their children.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 And there's research out there that it would take like $1,500 or something like that

Speaker 3 for a parent to change, a woman to change her mind and want to parent.

Speaker 3 So it's like thinking about childcare for six weeks while you're getting back on your fee or rent while you're staying home for that amount of time like there's it's just a little bit amount of money for most people that would change their mind um and support is the other thing and i remember sitting there and looking at those binders of families and they had pictures of not of them but like of their nurseries of their houses like all the things that they had and i'm a teenager living in an apartment with my parents thinking it and i didn't tell anyone i was pregnant my doctor told my parents at seven months that I was pregnant and I had him at eight and a half and so that was six weeks to make a decision with a bunch of coercion and just no plan for how I could make this thing work.

Speaker 3 It just, there's just so much lacking, especially for birth parents, but also for adoptive parents as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think what comes to my mind is that we are making a permanent decision for a temporary problem or struggle.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Which that should not be happening. And I wanted to know, are

Speaker 1 Do you mind sharing like your adoption journey? I know you, you know, you were an adoptee yourself. Is that the reason why you thought about adoption when you, you know, when it all came about?

Speaker 1 And whatever you're comfortable with as far as like your adoption. Everything.

Speaker 3 I have an open book, so ask anything you want.

Speaker 1 Yeah, with like, you know, your pregnancy and finding the parents and kind of like how your relationship is today.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so

Speaker 3 again, I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant at five months old. I mean, five months old, five months pregnant, my parents thought something was wrong.
So they're like, go to the doctor.

Speaker 3 We think you might have mono because I was sleeping all the time. It just wasn't myself.
So they sent me to the doctor. The doctor immediately was like, okay, you're pregnant, which I knew, of course.

Speaker 3 He was like, you have to tell your parents. And I didn't.
So two months later, he called the house and broke HIPAA and told my parents that I was pregnant.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 So that's how they found out. But it was a lot of denial for me, just like, I can't believe this is happening.

Speaker 3 What am I supposed to do now? Just a lot of that. And I describe my experience as birth mother grooming because as an adoptee, I really believed in that adoption narrative.

Speaker 3 And so it was really easy for them to then switch me from adoptee to a birth parent to say, look, look how well this worked out for you. You know all about adoption.

Speaker 3 The other night, though, I was sitting in bed and I just got really, really sad thinking about the fact that my adoptive parents allowed me to relinquish the only biological relative I had ever met.

Speaker 3 And I was sitting there. I was like, ooh,

Speaker 3 it just hit me the other night, yeah, thinking about that.

Speaker 3 It was about six weeks. My parents took me to an adoption agency.
They said, we will support you with whatever you want to do. We will do whatever you want.
It's your decision.

Speaker 3 Here's this binder of all these people who have all these things. You don't have a crib.
We don't have any of the things. You want to go to track camp.
I was signed up for them in June.

Speaker 3 I was signed up for track camp in July at Penn State. So they're like, You're supposed to go to track camp.
What will you do? Next year, it's your senior year. How will you go to prom?

Speaker 3 You want to go to college? How are you going to do all these things?

Speaker 3 And instead of saying, This is how you're going to do all these things, it was posed as a question that I, at like 17 years old at that time, when I had my pregnant at 16, but had him at 17. How am I?

Speaker 3 I'm already in crisis. How am I supposed to answer any of these questions as a teenager? So you want to do all these things.
We'll support you, but here are these people who are completely ready.

Speaker 3 I chose a family. The mother was a doctor and the father was a lawyer.
The mother was white. The father was, I mean, the mother was black.
The father was white.

Speaker 3 They already had one adopted child who was black. And so I was like, this is perfect.
I was transracially adopted. I didn't want my child in a home that had the same experience that I did.

Speaker 3 So I was like, okay, this is perfect. It's a doctor and a lawyer.

Speaker 3 They're going to have culture. They're going to have all the things.
Made the choice, relinquished him. It was the hardest thing I've ever done.
I have pictures of me in the hospital.

Speaker 3 And like, when I look at how young I looked, first of all, it's crazy. But also, I just looked so sad with him.

Speaker 3 And I got maybe an hour or so with him before they took him away. And they moved me off the maternity ward.
And now I understand that they did that so I wouldn't hear babies crying.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't see anything. And I wouldn't ask to go see him.
It was like a totally calculated thing to move me away from other mothers and other babies.

Speaker 3 And so then I was in the hospital at 17 by myself, just like in a ward with people who had like ankle surgery or whatever, like

Speaker 3 with people who just had regular surgery. And a couple weeks later, my parents sent me to track camp.
And that was it.

Speaker 3 That was like no more discussion about it, no more talk about it, no more anything.

Speaker 3 In 2010, I found him and I figured at that time he would be old enough that he had gone through college and all of that. It ended up being he was still in college.
It was his senior year.

Speaker 3 But I did find him on Facebook and kind of doing some Google searches and finding him and met him

Speaker 3 a year or so after that. But the thing that struck me about five years ago, I was having a conversation with a client who was like, tell me about your

Speaker 3 ideal family when you were growing up. And for me, it was the Cosbies.

Speaker 3 Like, I always wanted to have that experience of like culture, black culture, and like this family that really loved and supported each other.

Speaker 3 And in that moment, I remembered looking through that binder and finding that Cosby family with the doctor and the lawyer.

Speaker 3 And my son was transracially adopted, and so he was with a white family who had two other kids, one Asian and one from India. And so it wasn't even the family that I chose.

Speaker 3 Like the one thing of agency that they gave me, they took away and they gave him to someone else.

Speaker 2 And you didn't know about that.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 And you didn't know about that.

Speaker 2 You're the whole time in your mind.

Speaker 3 it didn't hit me until about five years ago, honestly, when I realized it. But yeah, I didn't even, I had no idea.

Speaker 2 So, the family, so the family, yeah, the family you picked in the book or the binder, that wasn't the family that your son was raised with. No, oh, what? Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 Yes, and so it ended up that his adoptive mother was best friends with the woman who owned the agency, and so she basically gave him to her friend.

Speaker 2 Okay, so

Speaker 2 this this

Speaker 2 wow, that is, I mean, I think, uh, I think going back to what you said with your uh hospital experience, though, it's a, it's a kind of a eerie metaphor for what it looks like because you literally were taken from a maternity ward, already discrediting you, minimizing your experience of what that you just gave birth, that you literally should be nowhere else but the maternity ward, because at that moment you are still legally a mother.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? So, it's like, I think that alone is like, that is how this operates because people are so almost cold to the the fact that birth mothers even have this, you know,

Speaker 2 place that they deserve to be in. So I just think that's really wild.
I also like the agency that you picked,

Speaker 2 are they still up and running? Do they still operate? No. Okay, so

Speaker 2 I think that's really common. And I think that's interesting because that goes to show if there's so many agencies coming up and going down and being shut down because they're practicing unethically.

Speaker 2 I mean, that is literally your experience because I couldn't imagine finding out later on that we, the family we picked, wasn't what really happened.

Speaker 1 And that, that to me, like, you know, yeah, you're already just going through all so many emotions and hardships and internal struggles.

Speaker 1 And then to find out years later that he wasn't even placed with the family that you chose, I would be

Speaker 1 absolutely livid, like

Speaker 1 so angry. Like, that is such a disservice, and it's disgusting, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 Like, that is just so wrong.

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Speaker 1 slash kate and tie that's uncommon goods.com slash kate and tie for 15 off uncommon goods we're all out of the ordinary and so you said you found him so i take it obviously it was a it was a closed adoption then yes yeah it was closed adoption um that's what i knew because that's what i was in and so that's like the choice that I made.

Speaker 3 I also remember thinking about like an open adoption, not being able to actually parent him. I don't know that I could have done it.

Speaker 3 And I remember feeling that way like because I didn't want to relinquish him. There was nothing in me that wanted to do that.

Speaker 3 It was just what people were telling me was like the best choice and it was the only option I could see. And so a closed adoption just felt like it felt like.

Speaker 3 how I felt as a transracial adoptee when I realized that there was a whole black culture out there that I didn't have access to, it felt the same.

Speaker 3 Like there would be this kid that I could see, but I didn't have access to. And I just, I didn't feel like I could handle that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think that I can totally relate to that because when in the beginning of us, like, you know, looking at the families and just even thinking about adoption, I, we definitely had those fears too.

Speaker 1 Like, it's going to be too hard. Like, doesn't that cause more pain? You know, like having to see her and then leave.
And for a good few months, we were like, no, we want closed.

Speaker 1 And then eventually we changed that and decided that we wanted to do open. But yeah, I think that's a normal fear because it is hard.

Speaker 1 And to say that every time that we see her and we leave, that it's not just like getting traumatized all over again. It is.
We process all those same feelings every single time.

Speaker 1 And it's super hard and it's emotional. But also it brings me joy to see her too.

Speaker 2 You know, so it's just like this like double, it's like a double-edged sword because you're, you're so grateful to do this, but at the same time, every time.

Speaker 2 you know, you have this open adoption, you keep saying goodbye over and over and over again. And just the unknowing and that all the power is really not with you.
You have no control over any of this.

Speaker 2 And so it's like, it's, it's, I can understand

Speaker 2 after being, you know, in an open adoption, why any birth parent would be like, this is going to be too hard for us.

Speaker 2 I remember when we were going through our decision making, we were like, we didn't even want to pick a family that was in Michigan because we were so nervous about, but if we run into them randomly and like, we, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 We were so scared to like have them be so close that maybe we'll want to go drive over there. Like we were so nervous about what that was going to do for us.

Speaker 2 And so I think people don't know what it's really like unless you've experienced it making decisions based on you know like you can't tell his future so you're making these decisions as a teenager thinking you know like oh this is fine i can't believe that you just went to track camp like right or right right afterward like that

Speaker 3 with a medical note saying that i couldn't run but not explaining why it was insane

Speaker 2 yeah so do you have you had any contact with

Speaker 2 your son's parents that raised him at all?

Speaker 3 Yeah, originally when I first found him, I reached out to them first, just kind of as a curiosity like thing and a courtesy. Yeah.
But just to say, like, hey, this is who I am.

Speaker 3 They knew who I was already, which is really kind of disheartening as well. Like, first the doctor and then this.

Speaker 3 So a year after I had relinquished him, there was some paperwork, I guess, that had to be, that they hadn't signed. I already had.
And so they had them sign them, but my name was there.

Speaker 3 So they saw my name. And so then I ran track in college and in high school.
And so they followed me in the newspaper. And so they knew who I was and I was literally like maybe 15 minutes from them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I didn't know that either.

Speaker 3 And so they knew exactly who I was and so there was no surprise from anyone and from him too. I think they had told him my name and stuff too.

Speaker 3 So yeah, that was that was interesting and I had a definite jealousy to them. They had sent me, his mom sent me a whole package of

Speaker 3 pictures of him growing up and I didn't look at them and I couldn't. I just felt like this is everything that I missed.
It was like my heart in an envelope. And so I wasn't able to even look at them.

Speaker 3 And so she really wanted more of a relationship with me than I was able to give. And I just couldn't.
I really just couldn't because I did feel kind of robbed.

Speaker 2 So that's interesting that you say that because I don't think people really understand that it can go both ways. This dynamic between birth parents and adoptive parents and even the adoptee.

Speaker 2 Like it's a, it's just, nothing's ever, there's so many nuances,

Speaker 2 nothing's the same. Like every situation is different.

Speaker 2 And I feel like it's kind of rare in your instance to be like, listen, you know, like this adoptive mother is like, hey, you know, we want you involved. We want you involved.

Speaker 2 And you're like, whoa, like, it's almost too much for me emotionally.

Speaker 2 That's, I mean, that speaks a lot to like what I think birth parents go through just on a daily basis, but even just like mentally, like, it's just, I mean, you think about it.

Speaker 1 The mental struggles you've go with, like the battles in your own mind.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah, it was really, really hard.
But they were open and welcoming. And she said, you know, go ahead and contact him.
So I did and he was welcoming and he was great.

Speaker 3 He lived with us for a while for about a year.

Speaker 3 He came and lived in the house with my younger kids after he graduated from college and and our relationship since then, so that was 2010, so it's been 15 years.

Speaker 3 In the 15 years, he has had three periods where he was like, don't contact me. So three periods of like no contact.
And we're in one now. This is the third time.

Speaker 3 And it's been about two years, maybe two and a half years or so, since we've had contact.

Speaker 1 And it's just kind of is that up and down of like when he's ready and when he's not he's 37 at this point you know he's and he's battling through his own identity crises right now and so i have to respect that right and i know like when we talked with melissa i know that it's it was interesting to me and it made complete sense when you talked about how adoptees tend to do that right like they'll put their foot in the door and want to get to know their birth parents and then they step back because maybe it's painful or it's bringing up stuff and they have to process it and then they come back and that makes sense because I mean, it's got to be a lot for both sides, you know, for the birth parents and for the adoptees.

Speaker 1 Um, and I just thought that was very interesting because I never thought about that until you mentioned that the one time.

Speaker 2 And like you said, I think it's all comes down to like respecting them.

Speaker 2 I mean, because I, I mean, my opinion is that the adoptee is the most important and they're the ones who are, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 They're the ones that get the most things happen to them where they didn't even ask for it. And so I feel like, you know, as birth parents, we have to kind of just, we have to do that.

Speaker 2 We have to like let them have that space.

Speaker 2 space and it's something that it really helped me and kate because we were like whoa okay it helped us to realize that there may be times when you know carly may come back and then she may step back out or come back in or whatever and i feel like that seems similar almost to like us saying goodbye at our open adoption meetings you know over the years like it's just that constant kind of like you know just going with the flow there's no like giant big band-aid we can just put on this whole thing.

Speaker 2 Like it's going to be an evolving process, really.

Speaker 2 And I feel like people don't understand that open adoption once you get in reunion and you're open with each other that that's kind of how it is you know it's it's ebb and flow

Speaker 2 yeah exactly

Speaker 1 when you said that level of emotions yeah so when you brought that up when um you mentioned that i was like i never would have thought that but then i was i kept i locked that in the back of my brain because i was like okay you know keep an eye on that if it ever happens you know like don't take it offensively or like hurt your feelings so hard you know like it's normal and it's natural and that has to be something now is that something that you kind of see a lot in your, the work that you do?

Speaker 2 Because I know you said that you specifically work with kind of everyone in the adoption triad constellation.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I see it a lot with adoptees who are, one of the things that I've heard said, and I think I even experienced it myself with my own reunion with my biological family, is that like you think that when you find these people, you're going to there's something that's going to fix that hole in you.

Speaker 3 And once you realize like that, other people can't fix what's going on in you, you've got to fix it. I think that, like, that's where I think my son is, too, is kind of retreating.

Speaker 3 Like, I thought everything was going to be roses, and I was going to feel more of who I was.

Speaker 3 And when he didn't, it was like, okay, what do I need to do to fix everything that I feel is going on in me? And I remember feeling that same thing when I found my biological family.

Speaker 3 It was like, okay, like this hole that's been in here is going to be filled.

Speaker 3 And then it created other holes, honestly, because then I saw these siblings who grew up together and they're completely welcoming to me and they're great, but they have like inside jokes and songs that they all know and like experiences that then it's like, gosh, this is the stuff that I could have, that should have been mine.

Speaker 3 Like rightfully, this was what was supposed to be mine. And so that just then makes me question, like, who I am? Who am I? That I didn't have these experiences that.

Speaker 3 these people who are related to me all had. I didn't have any of those.
And it really just kind of, it just messes with your brain, like your identity.

Speaker 3 And so I've seen that a lot with my clients.

Speaker 2 And so I feel like, you know, it's almost like that, and that's what I want to go back to is that, you know, you are a birth mother, you are an adoptee.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I feel like that's, you know, a really interesting perspective because you kind of can see both, both sides of it. And I feel like, you know, it's something that.

Speaker 2 People don't get that, you know, as much as birth parents grieve.

Speaker 2 I mean, adoptees grieve because they have to, I mean, that's what it sounds like when you're talking about watching your siblings have these jokes and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's, that's a grief because you're, you're grieving a loss that you just didn't even know that was a loss until you met them and watched them interact with each other. That's a huge thing.

Speaker 2 And I feel like people have this idea that reunions are always this most beautiful, awesome, amazing thing. And I think that we need to talk also, notice that it's hard for everybody.

Speaker 1 And it brings up a lot of emotions.

Speaker 2 Like you haven't worked on stuff or even explored any of the traumas that you have. I mean, it could be really, really life-altering.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. My biological mother has refused to have any contact with me.

Speaker 3 And I think, and it's 100% because she hasn't done any of the work herself. Wow.
And so just me coming and exposing her secret, her secret being me,

Speaker 3 I think it just kind of like overturned her life. And she just, she doesn't want anything to do with me because of that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I mean, we did talk about, you know, you, you relinquishing. Now, so, like, what about your adoption journey?

Speaker 1 Um, as far as, you know, you said that you found siblings and obviously her and stuff, but can you kind of tell us your story as an adoptee?

Speaker 2 The reunion, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I was adopted at five months old. So I call zero to five months my dead period because I have no idea where I was.
There's no record of it that I have, of who had me or where I was.

Speaker 3 And I know I was in foster care. I know they called me Danielle because my adopted mom told me that, but that's all I know.

Speaker 3 But I was adopted at five months into a transracial family. So my parents had three biological children already and couldn't have any more.
And so they decided to adopt me in 1971.

Speaker 3 And they wanted to adopt another black child, but in 1972, the National Association of Black Social Workers put out a position state against transracial adoption.

Speaker 3 And so when they went back to two years later, in 1973, they went back to adopt again. They were denied because of this position statement saying that

Speaker 3 it was like a psychological

Speaker 3 detriment to black kids to be raised in a white family. So I was raised, grew up, lived all over the world and the country, lots of moving, lots of great experiences, but a very white experience.

Speaker 3 And I realized in high school, actually, VET came on the air in the 80s, and I was like watching, and I was like, wow, there's this whole black culture that I have no access to.

Speaker 3 And that really sparked this interest in me to kind of learning about my identity and really understanding my black identity.

Speaker 3 And so that's kind of where I went from there: just trying to find as many experiences myself as possible. My parents did not have a single black friend.

Speaker 3 No black lawyers, doctors in there, no dentists, like nothing. We didn't go to a black church, nothing.
And so it was really up to me at like 12, 13 years old to try to explore that. And I did that.

Speaker 3 And that's very rare for transracial adoptees. Usually they just don't.

Speaker 3 So, and that's why I started to think about becoming a therapist because I had a lot of black transracial adoptees come to me and say, why are you so comfortable in your black skin?

Speaker 3 I don't need to feel comfortable around other black people, much less like my own skin.

Speaker 2 And that's so sad.

Speaker 3 It is very sad. Yeah, very, very sad.
And that was that point where I was like, like, okay, you need therapy. Let's find your therapist who's black and understands adoption.
Yeah, good luck. Right.

Speaker 3 So that's why I decided to do what I did.

Speaker 2 Nearly home.

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Speaker 3 Went through high school, college, started looking for my biological family in 1994,

Speaker 3 I think it was.

Speaker 3 Didn't find them until 2017 from DNA. So DNA kind of opened it.
And the thing that was the hardest for me at that point was that I started looking in 1994 1994. And my biological dad died in 1996.

Speaker 3 And he never knew that I had ever been conceived. So my mom didn't even tell him that she was pregnant.
So he died never even knowing that I existed.

Speaker 3 But he had children, other children, my siblings all older than me. And so I was able to find them through DNA and through Facebook stalking and sending messages.

Speaker 3 Like, hey, I'm your sister, will you do this test for me?

Speaker 3 And also through just kind of all of the internet stalking, I was able to find my brother who was two years older than me on my mom's side, who she actually raised. And so I reached out to him.

Speaker 3 He agreed to take the test, took the test. Yes, we're half siblings.
And then he told our mom that about me, and she denied it and tried to say that

Speaker 3 I wasn't hers. And he was like, I did DNA.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that's when she sent me the letter saying that she wanted nothing to do with me and that I had ruined her secret or something like that.

Speaker 3 So I was in contact with my brother for a while, but he was willing to keep her secret. He never told his kids about me.
No.

Speaker 3 And so that was what kind of made me decide at some point this isn't healthy for me.

Speaker 3 I feel like this, you know, we have, our daughters are the exact same age and they were about a half a mile from each other. And I was just like, I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 3 So I don't have contact with him anymore.

Speaker 3 But my, on my dad's side, there are a total of like 12 siblings. Oh, no.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yes.

Speaker 3 Some are half, some are like just on their moms, but they've all welcomed me and all of the nieces and nephews and great nieces and great nephews.

Speaker 3 And that's been amazing, amazing part of my journey is getting to know them and just really understanding a little bit more about who I am.

Speaker 3 Cool things like I've always been able to play music by ear and I never understood why.

Speaker 3 And then I find out that my family is a family of musicians and two of my uncles were even like pretty famous musicians in Paris.

Speaker 3 Little things like that that you find that have been really, really cool and kind of just comforting.

Speaker 2 Did you notice? So that was the first biological relative that you ever met in person.

Speaker 3 Yeah, other than my son, yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 And so when, what was it like for you to just, did you see any genetic mirroring? Did it, did you feel any?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I have a text that I saved with my sister and I sent her a picture and she was like, I sent this picture to my daughter and she says that your eyes are exactly like ours.

Speaker 3 And I was like, I wrote back and said, I can't believe 46 years I finally look like someone. And she wrote back, you look like a bunch of someones.

Speaker 3 And like something about that text just like settled in my heart. Someone asked me recently, what was the biggest compliment you ever received?

Speaker 3 And I told them like that text, her saying that I look like a bunch of someones was like the biggest compliment I had ever received because it's the first time I look like anybody.

Speaker 2 And I feel like that's actually something that people don't really understand that, you know, genetic mirroring is huge for adoptees.

Speaker 2 And it's actually, I didn't even, we didn't know about this until we started reading about it, but it's like for the developing brain, as you know, I mean, you're a therapist, you know how important that genetic mirroring is and how it goes back to when, you know, we were all in tribes and stuff.

Speaker 2 The history behind that like neural network that gets kind of messed up subconsciously almost is really interesting to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because a lot of people would probably think like that's so simple, just people that look like you, but it's like actually it's huge to be around people that look like you, especially like you said, being a transracial adoptee, like with no black people around at all, it sounded like.

Speaker 1 And now you have all these people who actually do have your same eyes and look like you. And

Speaker 1 also, I want to say too that I don't blame you at all for cutting off your brother because that is just

Speaker 1 wrong to me. Like, I get it, like, whatever.
She had a secret, but also maybe it, it could have taken him to say, no, mom, your secret's out of the bag. You know, it's not a secret anymore.

Speaker 1 And I feel like we've heard a lot of adoptees talk about how when you find out that you were a secret, how damaging that is to their mental health and stuff.

Speaker 2 And then for him to just kind of reinforce that thought like that is so sad to me so it sounds like you made the right decision as far as kind of like you know cutting him off and i feel like that's also important to talk about too because adoptees deserve to have that freedom even if that person's quote unquote you know normal healthy whatever like you have the right to to kind of protect your peace in that way yeah yeah absolutely yeah and

Speaker 3 doing that made it a them issue and not a me issue and so it allowed me to not internalize that. Right.
It allowed me to say, like, this is an issue that they have and the work that they haven't done.

Speaker 3 It's not an issue with me. And so that's really important too, because it really could have been like another rejection and another abandonment.
And I did not let that happen in my brain at least.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I almost feel, yeah, sorry.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, no, and I think, and I think how you said how when you, when you do that, and you're like,

Speaker 1 this is a them thing and not a me thing, so that way you don't internalize it.

Speaker 1 That thinking, I feel like that you had, that comes from already doing a lot of work on yourself right as like a human and an adoptee and a birth mom like we have to be self-aware and do the work in order i feel like to have those thoughts because i feel like a imagine like a i don't know a 15 year old adoptee finding out a birth mom and her saying that and then her brother like i feel like they would get those feelings of like rejection and i'm just this big secret like that's

Speaker 1 I could never, especially like being a birth mom, I could never imagine I would be like open arms, like whatever you want, whatever you don't want. Like, oh that makes me so sad and mad

Speaker 2 and i also feel like it's giving it's giving the secret so much power yeah like why are we allowing why are why would you allow this you know secret to be have so much power and i almost you know a part of me has sympathy for for her because i feel like she hasn't addressed that part yet you know that she's that you know what i mean she's allowed to like

Speaker 2 it's allowed you're allowed to not be okay with it you're allowed to be mad about it and feel shame about it and all that stuff i feel like i think every birth parent would be lying if they said there's not a part of them that that felt a little bit of shame or guilt throughout their journey of knowing that, you know, that we relinquished a baby.

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Her current husband is a retired Maryland state senator. And I think a lot of her decision has to do with the fact that she's like, you know,

Speaker 3 she's in the public and she doesn't want this thing out there. So she has to be living with incredible fear that any day I could just come out and say something.
Oh, for sure.

Speaker 3 Which I absolutely could. And I do.
I tell my story all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I don't always use her name, but sometimes I have used her name.

Speaker 3 So I understand that. But why? Why live with that fear? It's just you say it and it's out there and then it's done.

Speaker 3 Like, I don't understand that, but I do understand it at the same time that she's living with this fear. And also, I have a sister, half-sister on my dad's side who's seven months older than me.

Speaker 3 And so realizing that she was pregnant at the same time as another woman he was dating, I'm sure there's a lot of anger and hurt that she hasn't worked out for with him as well.

Speaker 3 And I'm caught up in that. So I do understand it.
It still sucks, but I do understand it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, did you feel any like when you found out that your biological dad was was dead?

Speaker 2 Like, did that, I mean, I feel like people don't really get a glimpse of what that, that's like, it's like, to me, it's like double, double grief. Like you're like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, can you explain a little bit of how that was?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's like, for one, I'm sad for him that he didn't even get to know that he, you know, that he created me. I'm sad about that, but I'm really, I do feel robbed of that experience of knowing him.

Speaker 3 There are definite things that my siblings have told me. He wasn't the best dad to them.
And so part of me gets to romanticize who he was. So that's actually probably a good thing.

Speaker 3 But it's still, it feels like another loss. Like, I don't ever get to, I didn't get to grieve his death.
It's just like I found him and he's dead, like at the same time.

Speaker 3 And so it is another huge loss.

Speaker 3 But I do really feel just a lot of resentment around the fact that she never told him.

Speaker 3 Because when my siblings realized it, they said he would have been married to their mom and had then had recently divorced and then had other kids, me and my sister.

Speaker 3 And they said to me,

Speaker 3 our mom would have taken you if they had known he had this child.

Speaker 3 And so, like, no one even got the opportunity.

Speaker 3 And so, that's another thing that I talk about a lot with adoptive parents is that there is some safe adult in your child's life that a biological safe adult that they can definitely have some sort of relationship to.

Speaker 3 Like, you've got to keep those lines open.

Speaker 3 And I wish they had done that for me.

Speaker 2 Do you do you find a lot of like adoptive parents in your practice?

Speaker 2 Do you see a lot of them coming in with the kind of same

Speaker 2 issues? Or

Speaker 2 what is a common. I mean, I'm assuming you see a lot of adoptive parents come in there and have a lot of

Speaker 2 worry, fear, anxiety about losing their child to someone else or whatever the case is.

Speaker 2 But can you explain to people who don't understand a little bit of what the dynamic can look like between when you have an adoptive parent who really loves his child, but then you also have this birth parent who wants to be involved and like how

Speaker 2 kind of like the, I feel like there's a lot of stigmas with

Speaker 2 certain stuff that where the adoptive parents, their fears are more

Speaker 2 almost prioritized over birth parents. That's what it feels like.
Yeah, it feels like culturally kind of yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's, I mean, legally that is right.
Yeah. Their fears and their desires and all of that are prioritized over the birth of the first family, the whole family.

Speaker 3 And I see a lot of fear, a fear of like losing their child, a fear of like having, I know in my own, my mom had a definite fear of not relating to me. So when I really started

Speaker 3 understanding my culture and where I came from, there was this thing that she couldn't have access to, this part of me. And I know that there was a fear of kind of losing connection to me.

Speaker 3 And I see that a lot with a lot of adoptive parents that they fear loss of connection because there's this thing, this bond to our first families that they just can't understand and don't have access to.

Speaker 3 And I think that there's an air of entitlement to

Speaker 3 a lot of adoptive parents. And that's one of the things that I talk a lot about is that like no one is entitled to anyone else's child.

Speaker 3 And so you've got to realize that this is someone else's child. And that's one of the kind of the deal breakers that I have in therapy with adoptive parents.

Speaker 3 It's like we've got to understand that like no one is entitled to anyone else's child. And really, no one's entitled to the child, period.
They're their own human being. No one has ownership.

Speaker 3 And you can't have too many people love a child. So, like, why not? Yeah.
Why not have as many people love this child as possible? It just doesn't make sense to not to.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because then I, and I feel like, you know, like Tyler and I, we've always said with our, you know, our whole journey, um,

Speaker 1 like, if there was just open,

Speaker 1 honest, just honest, open communication, there wouldn't be these rifts. I feel like, like, I feel like if, you know,

Speaker 1 because, like you said, the more people loving a child, unless it's hurting the child or affecting the child in a negative way, then what, what, then what's the problem?

Speaker 1 Like, and I feel like that's kind of, I mean, with ours, that's how it's been is that that rift there is because there isn't honest open communication. Me and Ty, we're very open, very honest.

Speaker 1 We'll tell you how we feel.

Speaker 2 You know, in a way, though, that's also kind of

Speaker 2 not good for us because one thing that wasn't explained to us really is that like you know picking a family in the south it's a lot different and i didn't you know that's stuff at teenagers we didn't know we're just like i never been around people in the south so we just talk and so almost having to like navigate that like having to talk in in a certain way that's like uh digestible or whatever it's it's just it's difficult yeah because that's another thing you're not taught when you know when you're making this decision is just the cultural differences of being north the north versus south and um and yeah i i had no idea all i saw was when we were kids we were just like look at this awesome family opposite of what we have yeah two-story house they're they have a dog like you know we're in the middle of poverty stricken i'm sleeping on trailer parks like it's just like yeah it was so you know i think like like the the industry really romanticizes that like almost almost in a way looking back now as an adult it feels like you you definitely they it they play on that like they know that like you know what i mean because like i think you said something really important that you said something like, well, no one said, everyone kept asking us, well, how are you going to do this?

Speaker 2 Never saying, here, here's how you can do this. Here's how I will help you as an adult talking to a child, which really blows my mind thinking about it as an adult now.

Speaker 2 Like, I would never, even if I met a random

Speaker 2 birth mother who was thinking about this, I'd be like, listen.

Speaker 1 Any woman, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you need help? Like, it's my first, it's like my first natural instinct is to ask them,

Speaker 2 do you need help? Or what do you need? And then we figure out how to get it. What do you need?

Speaker 2 And I feel like the lack of resources

Speaker 2 that kind of agencies in the industry don't really share with birth parents is a crime because it's not informed consent if those things aren't done.

Speaker 1 Well, because I think even just capitalism.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And we cannot commodify this. These are children, innocent children.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I mean, I've said it before, like after getting out of my, you know, still working through it to this day, but most recently getting out of my birth parent fog and stuff, and I look at things and I have my case file and, you know, things like that.

Speaker 1 I mean, it wasn't that long ago for the words to come out of my mouth for the first time ever where I was like, I was definitely coerced. This is coercion.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 1 and that's mind-blowing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's hard to accept, I think.
And I think even for, I mean, it has to be hard even for adoptees to know that, you know, this happened. You know what I mean to their birth parents?

Speaker 2 Like, I mean, it adds a whole different level of just...

Speaker 2 pressure and just like, I don't know, I just, it's, it's a difficult dynamic to have to navigate.

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Speaker 1 So did you,

Speaker 1 as you got older, things of that nature, did you ever have any more children?

Speaker 3 Yes, I have three children that I've raised. Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay, same, same.

Speaker 1 So, and I think it's interesting.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, I also want to talk about another thing that we weren't taught and that I don't think a lot of people think about is, you know, I never once had the thought when I was making this decision of my future children and how it would negatively affect them and hurt them in a sense.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you never, I never thought of that, but I feel like we're going kind of through those things now: of like, you know, our kids are getting older. We have pictures throughout the house.

Speaker 1 They know her, they know who she is, all the things. And so I'm noticing, you know, my children struggle with certain things and we're having to have conversations about it.

Speaker 1 And I don't think people realize that. Like, absolutely.
The kids struggle.

Speaker 3 Yeah, my daughter, my youngest daughter was four when we when my when I found my son and so she really doesn't know life without him so when he goes through these periods of no contact it's different for her yeah because it's like this has been my brother as long as I can remember why does he not want to talk to us

Speaker 3 and so it's a different kind of hurt for her than it is for my older two children yeah so yeah it's it's hard to navigate I didn't tell them until I had information about him and so until I found him in 2010 I hadn't told them which was really hard my oldest son who's he's 30 now so they're seven years apart.

Speaker 3 He used to say when he was younger, I want an older brother. And I remember just feeling like, oh, right.
You can say, I want a little brother or little sister.

Speaker 3 He always said he wanted an older brother. And it's just like, but you have one.

Speaker 3 And so for him to find out, and they both are swimmers and ran and swam in college, like really phenomenal swimmers, black male swimmers. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Why are they both that? Right.

Speaker 3 But they both have the exact same personality and they're both kind of just the same person. And for a while,

Speaker 3 lived when my son lived with us they were coaching um swim team together so i would go out and watch them out there and then he didn't want contact and so like it's hard for them they really hurt um i did write my memoir and so my kids have read it and that's helped them process through it because they can see from my point of view all the things that happen and then also understand him better as an adoptee because they understand me better as an adoptee.

Speaker 3 And so that has helped definitely for my youngest daughter, especially. She's like, okay, I'm not so angry angry with them now that I see kind of the identity stuff that you go through.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think for us,

Speaker 2 it's hard for birth parents because.

Speaker 1 And I think for us, since it has, you know, it was an open adoption for so long. And so the kids just know about her and that's just been part of it.

Speaker 1 I feel like for us, like we just, whenever things come up, we just try to have those conversations with our children and be open and honest to their, you know, age of understanding.

Speaker 1 But it's hard. And man, does that take a toll? Like, I know you can relate, like, it takes a toll on my mom's heart.
And just like, you know, because they're missing her and I'm missing her.

Speaker 1 And I'm sad. I'm sad for them.
And then I get angry because I'm like, you know, you get in your head of like, man, if I wouldn't have done this, then she would be here. Like, all the things.

Speaker 2 And then as a parent, you get kind of the parent clause come out because then you're like, God, you know, you want to stop your child from hurting and you see them hurting and you're like, will you please let us do something here?

Speaker 2 And then it's like, well, it's not, it's not their responsibility. So I feel like as birth parents, it's almost like it's so hard because you have to to like

Speaker 2 parent this other child and going through stuff that I can't relate to. I don't know what that's like to not have access to a sibling.

Speaker 2 I don't know what it's like to be raised with, and then knowing that I could have had some relationship with.

Speaker 2 So it's like, it's really difficult because, and I think it's also interesting because your son's at an age where he can make his own decisions and stuff.

Speaker 2 So then it's like, as a parent, I have to like now

Speaker 2 I have to like console my other child because this child, and then I mean it can create you just a lot of

Speaker 3 murky waters in the dynamic and it's hard to deal with yeah absolutely and you have your own emotion about it

Speaker 3 your own laws but you can't have that when you're talking to your children you've got to be this rock right yeah it's it is hard it's so hard what is the name of your memoir adopting privilege And so how does that, how did the whole writing a book process go for you?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I started journaling when I found my family in 2017 just because I wanted to capture what was going on and what I was feeling. And I started journaling about it.

Speaker 3 And then that turned into, well, you know, this is what I'm feeling now. What did I feel before? So then I started writing about that.

Speaker 3 And at some point, I was like, I think I have a book here, like starting. And so I talked to myself,

Speaker 3 my dissertation chair, when I got my PhD, she's like my mentor, one of really good friends. And I talked to her about it.
And I was like, I've been writing this thing. I don't know what to do with it.

Speaker 3 And she was like, just keep writing. Write everything you're feeling.
Just write it all out. It could just be for you, or maybe you'll publish it, maybe you won't.
And so, I did that.

Speaker 3 I wrote everything, I kept most of the things in.

Speaker 3 The only things I took out were stories that were other people's stories that I, you know, weren't really, I didn't want to tell other people's stories.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and then I sent it out to a couple people who I knew and said, Just what do you think of this? And they were like, You have to publish it.

Speaker 3 And so, that was kind of that started that journey of like, Let me do this. It's very vulnerable, it's very raw.
I don't hold back any of my experiences. Um, and I stopped writing in 2017.

Speaker 3 I didn't write anything from then to when I published in 2025 because I don't feel like I've healed from things that have happened over the past like 10 years.

Speaker 3 But it's very...

Speaker 3 very, very raw, but it's very balanced because I wanted to make sure that I gave credit to the good parts of my life, the good parts of my adoptive parents, but also I'm very critical of adoption as an industry and the whole and what it's done to shape my life.

Speaker 3 But yeah, it's been a great experience, and the reception has been really, really awesome.

Speaker 3 I think the most touching was when my biological siblings have read it, and they're just like, one, they learned more about me, but to have them say that they learn more about themselves from it was just, that was mind-blowing because they weren't adopted.

Speaker 3 But they still, because it was so vulnerable about my feelings and how I process my emotions,

Speaker 3 it seemed to help them as well.

Speaker 2 So do you think that them reading that book, the vulnerability and just the courageous transparency that you had in the book, do you think that actually helped your guys' relationship?

Speaker 3 Yes, absolutely. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 3 Because I came in as like this person who was adopted into a white family who had all of this educational privilege and academic stuff and professional life and all these things.

Speaker 3 And so I was like this weird anomaly to them. And so then for them to actually read how I got there,

Speaker 3 I think it grounded them in who I actually am as a person. And they just felt more comfortable around me for sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so were your siblings, so if you could like, so your siblings siblings were raised in a totally different culture and just totally different lifestyle, obviously, than what you said there was, yeah, so I was curious on how, did you find that that was hard to relate to them at first?

Speaker 2 Or did you feel they kind of like, you know,

Speaker 2 the one oddball out?

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, I still do.

Speaker 3 Especially because they were raised in a religious culture, Seventh-day Adventist, which I don't know much about. So that's like a completely different experience from me.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 They were raised like in Baltimore, some of them, and then in private schools as well, where they went to boarding schools, too. So they have a completely different experience from that as well.

Speaker 3 And I was raised, like my dad was a college professor. My mom was an English teacher.
And so he just wanted to teach and not publish.

Speaker 3 So every three, five years, when it came time to publish or perish, he would have to find a new job. And so he would move.

Speaker 2 So I was born in Baltimore.

Speaker 3 We lived in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Egypt, Miami, and then back to Maryland. And so, and then I married my husband who's in the Air Force, so I've moved all over.

Speaker 3 So I have these like really strange, very worldly experiences that made me look like an alien to my siblings.

Speaker 3 And I'm talking about like going to Switzerland during the summer and like all this craziness that I did.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was very, it was hard for them to kind of see me as their sister until they really read my journey to get there. And then it was like, okay, yeah, you're, you're, we, we get it.

Speaker 3 We get who you are and how you just became who you are. Um, it was really helpful.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's like what people need to understand: is that the more transparency, the better in this whole thing. I mean, it's better for the adoptee.
It's better for the adoptive parents.

Speaker 2 It's better for the birth parents if they can all just. And it's better for the bio-sides.
It's better for everybody involved, you know?

Speaker 1 Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 I also feel like people don't really understand the ripple effect that it has. I know I've talked to a lot of adoptees who have,

Speaker 2 you know, their own biological children. And some of them are the first you know real biological relative they've ever seen in their whole life

Speaker 2 and they talk about how hard it is to you know even tell their own children that hey like you know grandpa is not biologically really that's why grandpa looks different than you know what i mean like and people don't think about having to explain to multiple you know one decision that that a birth parent makes it has a ripple effect on multiple generations.

Speaker 2 Do you see that a lot happening in your practice?

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just your children, but it's like your spouses and dating and all of that, like having to tell someone you're adopted and explain all of that.

Speaker 3 I never told anyone that I was adopted. I would let my dates come and see.

Speaker 2 Oh, I was like, yeah, just come over for dinner.

Speaker 3 But it is this kind of like, I call it the gift that keeps on giving, this thing that just keeps having this effect on everything that you do. We were traveling in Paris, and

Speaker 3 I was with my husband and two of my daughters and my niece, Sophie, who's blonde hair, blue eyes. And I remember getting looks.

Speaker 3 And at one point, my daughter was like, this Moroccan guy was hitting on my daughter. And he was like, who are you here with? You're American.
Who are you here with?

Speaker 3 And she was like, my mom's over there and my sister and my dad. And that's my cousin, Sophie.
And he's like, your cousin? And she was like, yeah, it's my cousin Sophie.

Speaker 3 Her dad and my mom are siblings. And the guy literally said to her, only in America and walked away.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 No, it's not only in America, but yeah, I get it. Wow.
But yeah, so like it affects them, my children, children, too. Like it really, it really does affects everything.
And

Speaker 3 my daughter, we moved back to Maryland where most of my biological family still is.

Speaker 3 And my oldest daughter is now connecting with cousins and having this experience with black cousins that she'd never had before and cousins who look like her and taking pictures with them.

Speaker 3 So it's not just me. And it took me a while to sit back and realize like I had this like protective thing.
Like this is my biological family. It's my experience.

Speaker 3 And it took me a while to realize like these are my kids too.

Speaker 3 They were raised with my adoptive family, right? And my, they're cousins from my, you know, adoptive siblings.

Speaker 3 And so, this was this weird experience for them, too, to have these people who look like them as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it kind of made a journey.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think as birth parents, too, we almost feel that's why it's hard to navigate when there's these periods of like not having contact because you feel like protective of your like now that we realize that, like, you know, like you said, like, this is like Carly is, you know, that that's our child sister.

Speaker 2 Like, we have to acknowledge that, honor that. And then it's hard not to, like, want to like fight for that.
Like, oh, not even for us, you know, not even for

Speaker 1 me and you at the end of the day, you know, it's like, but the kids, you know, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 Yes, I feel like that's one thing that, like, me and Kate said after having our own kids and parenting them. We're like, listen, it's not even about us anymore.
Who cares?

Speaker 2 Because once you see the siblings, like, it's like they deserve to have at least the access to

Speaker 2 a bond. And I think what a, what a crazy gift that you're able to give your daughter that she's going to be, she's connecting with cousins that are black just like her.

Speaker 2 She's able to see and feel the stuff that you didn't get to do when you were a kid. That's already like, hey, we're breaking the curses.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 With your in your opinion and everything that you've been through as far as being a birth mom and an adoptee, if there were like two or three things that you would like to see completely changed in adoption, what do you think those would be?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it not being a marketing industry for one. Let's start that.
So, shifting that narrative that it's not a better life, not caring about finding kids for families, like absolutely not.

Speaker 3 That should not be the goal. The goal should be: if there's a child who absolutely does not have anyone to take care of them, then adoption should be an option.

Speaker 3 Otherwise, like this searching and couples putting out like their announcements on Facebook that they're looking or GoFundMe to like all of that should be absolutely banned because it makes it this crazy industry.

Speaker 3 And then informed consent. I would just leave it at those two things.

Speaker 3 Informed consent is so, so, so important that we understand what is happening, the trauma of it, the grief, the loss, just how it affects everybody in the family and just

Speaker 3 everything.

Speaker 3 From being an adoptee and having to go to a doctor and they ask you for your, you know, who in your family has had cancer and having to write adopted on that and having to explain it over and over and over again.

Speaker 3 No one explained that to my parents, that that's something that I would have to go through. No one explained to me even when I was going through it, that I shouldn't have to go through it.

Speaker 3 Like, there's no reason that I should have

Speaker 3 this information. And so, informed consent is just that's just so important.
And just, I read a study, there were like 35 hopeful parents for every one infant born.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and so, with that kind of economical

Speaker 3 supply and demand thing, it's understandable that this is such a market, but we absolutely should not have let it be this way.

Speaker 3 I have a check that's on the front of my book that my parents wrote for my court costs, $30.

Speaker 3 They kept it. I found it in my adoption stuff.
And the thing that it did to me to think that my parents paid $30 for me is crazy.

Speaker 3 Like, I just was just, I was depressed for like a week when I found this thing. Like, what? They paid $30 for me

Speaker 3 because, you know, getting a black child is cheaper. And there's, you know, we have evidence of that all over the internet.
Yeah. So, yeah, just, I feel like I'm going on a tangent about

Speaker 2 why you wanted to even do this podcast in the first place place is because

Speaker 2 nothing changes if nothing changes. And I think what needs to change is us talking about these things that make people uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 Talking about the purchasing of children makes people uncomfortable, and it should. It's happening.

Speaker 2 That should make normal people in the head uncomfortable. And it should be addressed.
And it's something that we need to fix.

Speaker 2 I think, like you said, the industry part of it is really disturbing, especially learning how other countries operate. And we're the only one doing this.
And it's like,

Speaker 2 the fact that, you know, and like the guy said, only in America. Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 He's like, only, and it's like, that's literally exactly what this adoption industry is like in this country. And I feel like, you know, it's interesting how you talk about the $30 bothering you.

Speaker 2 I've had adoptees say that they found out that they paid, you know, $20,000 and that bothered them because like, you know, it's like, wow, like, you know, that's what.

Speaker 2 Putting a price on children right there, unethical. Not it.
Not not the move. So it's like, I think

Speaker 2 you're taking the commodity part out of it. And

Speaker 2 it needs to happen. And if it doesn't happen, until that happens, it's not ever going to be ethical.
And I think.

Speaker 1 Same with like how you said about the consent, too. Like, yeah, if there's, if nobody, that also right there, if that doesn't change,

Speaker 1 they're never going to be ethical.

Speaker 2 And I think, and honestly, people, people get it confused in informed consent because we have people like, you know, obviously as birth parents, I mean, we just get ripped apart. And being on TV.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So, and they're like, oh, well, you did have informed consent.
And it's like, well, no, I, and they think just because we had a little paperwork that we kind of adoption plan that you make, and

Speaker 2 that's not informed consent. We're not taught, we're not told that adoptees have higher risk of suicide.
We're not taught to

Speaker 2 be, yeah, we don't, we don't, no one talked to us about pre-verbal maternal separation trauma.

Speaker 2 I think, honestly, me and Kate always say that if someone would have told us that your baby is going to be traumatized by being separated from you, I mean, I don't even know if we'd even be having such a discussion right now because I know I wouldn't have to do it.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Like, if someone had even told me that that was part of my attachment and part of probably the reason that I got pregnant at 16 was like my attachment issues and wanting to please and like doing things that I shouldn't have done.

Speaker 3 If I had even understood that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Speaker 2 Well, can you elaborate on that? Like, so when adoptees, do you see a lot of people in your practice, as far as adoptees go, having attachment issues?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, definitely. Having all kinds of scattered attachment, whether it's anxious or avoidant or all of the things, absolutely.

Speaker 3 Just not understanding who they are and where they can feel safe. And so constantly looking for that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think people don't get that that's actually affects them as adults and all the relationship that they have.
Yeah. Who they end up with possibly, who they end up having kids with possibly.

Speaker 2 It affects everything.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and for relinquishing parents as well.

Speaker 3 I tell everyone, like, when I had children, I never checked to see if they were breathing. Like, SIDS was never an issue for me.
I used to check that they were still there.

Speaker 3 I would wake up and look at the monitor just to make sure my child was still there in the crib. That is, that's like, and I never, I didn't realize it until I was like, you know.

Speaker 2 today years old pretty much.

Speaker 3 You know, within the last couple of years, my daughter had

Speaker 3 her first child six months ago. Oh, wow.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 You're a grandma. Yeah, she has five.

Speaker 3 Yeah, my son has four and she has one. But yeah, when she had her daughter, was when I realized six months ago that, wow, I used to check to make sure you guys were still there.

Speaker 3 I never thought about you not breathing. That was never a thought.

Speaker 1 See, it's like

Speaker 3 that trauma, even too. No one told me that

Speaker 3 that's a thing. Yeah, it's just informed consent.
It's just, it's beyond understanding what your rights are. It's understanding the trauma.

Speaker 3 It's understanding the benefits and the harm of the thing that you're about to do.

Speaker 1 And man, they don't ever speak about it.

Speaker 2 I speak explaining.

Speaker 1 No, they don't ever ever speak about the hard stuff that's going to happen no not at all not for the adoptee or or for the birth parents like it and my parents should have known yeah

Speaker 2 they should have understood all of that too and right yeah none of that my dad said they talked about the difference of my skin and my hair might because i was black and that was that was the all of the kind of prep he got wow what might be different or what i might need well yeah and i also feel like you know i'm not over here saying that the industry i mean like the adoptive parents get screwed too i mean they like like me and kay always talk about i will always have sympathy and empathy for uh our daughter's parents because i think they had a different idea of of how they wanted their adoption to go.

Speaker 2 I think they had this kind of like romanticized version of it. And, you know, really in reality, they deserve to have that experience too, if that's something that they, you know, wanted.

Speaker 2 And so it's not just the birth parents and adoptees that are affected by it. It's the adoptive parents too.
Because I think, you know, until we have kind of a system that kind of like

Speaker 2 checks in with the adoptive parents, saying, Hey, what do you think about trauma? What do you do?

Speaker 2 Like, I mean, they should be screened to know and go through grief and loss trauma and be the kind of like, if we could find a way to certify that they've gone through these classes or learned something before they're even able to adopt, I think it's super important because, and I think it's, it goes back to what you said in your, in your practice, that you're like, listen, we have to understand that until you come to the conclusion as an adoptive parent that this is somebody else's child, we can't,

Speaker 2 we're not going to work together. We can't move forward.
That's the first thing that has to happen, which I think is super important.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
When I think about my parents, they were both Roman Catholic. They were both the oldest of six.
They wanted a big family.

Speaker 3 My mom had three kids, and my brother was born with like the RH thing. Now you can just give a shot and it's fine.
But at the time, he had to have a full blood transfusion.

Speaker 3 And he told her if she had another child, it would die. And we were all two to three years apart, about two and a half to three years apart.
So at two years, after

Speaker 3 my brother was two, my parents started looking to add another child to the family because they wanted this big family.

Speaker 3 But at no point did they get grief counseling about the fact that they couldn't have any more biological children.

Speaker 3 Like no one stared down and said, hey, let's work through this part first before you go and adopt and put all of this grief and stuff on and expectation on this child that is coming into your family.

Speaker 3 Like that should have been step one with that with that adoption process for them is like working through what it feels like to not be able to have another child or not be able to have a child at all.

Speaker 3 Right. And that doesn't happen either.

Speaker 2 And do you find that a lot with adoptive parents that come into your practice? They kind of, I mean, they probably, it must be kind of difficult to kind of tell them that, hey,

Speaker 2 have you handled the grief and loss of not being able to have biological kids of your own?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't think it's difficult because I think even like you guys would relate when someone tells you, hey, you went through trauma and you're like,

Speaker 2 it's like, I'm ready.

Speaker 3 Oh my God, you see me.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I don't think it's difficult. It's almost like freeing for them to have someone else voice this experience that they've had this grief, this loss that has not been addressed.
But yeah,

Speaker 3 it's a must that they have to kind of go through that as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I think we need to also have some stuff in place to protect them as well. And just like they deserve informed consent like everyone else does.

Speaker 1 The whole system from the ground up needs to change.

Speaker 2 Bulldoz it. Yeah, and

Speaker 1 start rebuilding it or not at all.

Speaker 2 Not at all. One or the other.
No,

Speaker 1 you know, but a lot of things need to to change. And

Speaker 1 I just want to say thank you so much for hopping on with us today and being vulnerable and sharing your story. I feel like just the couple times that I've spoken to you, I've learned a lot from you.

Speaker 1 Thank you. And it really touches my heart to speak to you.
I really enjoy it. For anybody that is looking to find you, where can people find you at and where can people find your memoir?

Speaker 3 Yeah, adoptingprivilege.com. You can find my memoir there.
You can find access to me, to my practice. It's all linked in there.
But adoptingprivilege.com is the easiest way to find me.

Speaker 2 Perfect. And also, let's mention that, like, you know, there's not a lot of adoption-competent therapists out there.

Speaker 2 So, if anyone is looking to explore that, if you're an adoptee, adopted parent, birth parent, please look up Dr. Abby and reach out.

Speaker 2 I'm really excited from this moment on because I know me and you are going to work together, Dr. Abby.
I'm excited to kind of get

Speaker 2 start my own therapy as a birth parent and just kind of get into the, you know, into the other side of this whole thing that I feel like maybe, you know, we get to a certain age as a birth parents in our journey.

Speaker 2 It's like, all right, time to open the book back up and start learning some more. Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 we really appreciate you coming on and speaking with us today.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I don't think this will be the last.
I would love to have you back for, you know, different things. And, you know, so definitely for the future.

Speaker 2 Come back.

Speaker 3 I'm about to do some research on adoptees who have relinquished. So, yeah, I'd love to share that with you when that's done.

Speaker 2 Which is pretty common. I've heard of a lot.
It's adoptee.

Speaker 2 Yeah, people, a lot of adoptees being raised, kind of indoctrinated into this idea narrative about the adoption they end up placing. So that's interesting to talk about that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and hear about what you come up with and find.

Speaker 1 So, again, thank you so much. Thank you, Dr.

Speaker 2 Abby.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me.

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