Sold, Not Relinquished: An Adoptee's Search for Answers

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Speaker 5 Welcome back to Pate and Ty Break It Down. And today we have a very special guest.

Speaker 6 I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 7 We're so happy to talk to you because we actually saw you on

Speaker 7 TikTok. And it was kind of that, I'm assuming you know the video that we're talking about, which was you talking to your adoptive mom, talking about the name change.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So,

Speaker 7 first off, tell everyone who you are and kind of like a little bit of a little bit of update about, you know, how all this came to be.

Speaker 5 Yeah, your story, whatever you're comfortable with sharing.

Speaker 6 I'm Diana, and I'm from Chicago.

Speaker 6 I was born in Wisconsin to a lady who, I don't know, there was like a lot of stories throughout my life about how she like really loved us and she was like putting us up for adoption to like protect us from like the mob and like all of these like crazy stories and like her friends friends like really believe these stories like to their heart to where when I'm like no she sold us they're like don't say that I'm like but that's what happened like that's that's it no she loved you she was protecting you I'm like no that doesn't make sense like with all of the information that I now have at 38 years old like no

Speaker 7 So but you say us as in like so there's there's more than one. How many siblings do you have? There is.

Speaker 6 I have three brothers. My oldest brother, Ryan, he

Speaker 6 was born in 1983,

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 my mother kept him for a couple of years, but she had a lot of

Speaker 6 issues.

Speaker 6 She had a friend who I recently tracked down and just spent the past two weeks asking this woman questions, like basically digging into a past of her life that she probably didn't really like feel like talking about.

Speaker 6 I wouldn't, but my mother had a friend that would be with her during the pregnancies and like help her out with the babies because my mother couldn't like connect.

Speaker 6 She like wouldn't like touch us when we were crying or anything. Like she was not

Speaker 6 like a loving,

Speaker 6 nurturing mom at all.

Speaker 6 So this like lady Kathy, she would help her and she would basically take care of the babies.

Speaker 6 My mom got pregnant again in 1985 with my brother Michael and he lived in California. We found each other from ancestry like a year ago.

Speaker 3 Oh wow.

Speaker 6 And he's he's pretty cool. I've looked for him pretty much my entire life and had decided he was fake and then

Speaker 6 and then there he was.

Speaker 3 So I was like, oh well.

Speaker 5 So so you're so your biological mom, so did she keep all of you guys for like a certain period of time and then relinquish you?

Speaker 6 So she kept Ryan for the longest, like almost until he was three. Wow.

Speaker 6 So what I understand is that he tripped over a cord of a coffee pot and then like burned his arm and he was having like expense needing like expensive surgeries that she couldn't really afford.

Speaker 6 So she told Kathy that she was going to sell Michael, who she was pregnant with, for like $10,000 so that she could keep Ryan and take care of Ryan. But Michael's adoptive mother says that at first

Speaker 6 our mom tried to get her to take the toddler, but she was like, no, I want the bun in the oven, basically. She's like, but I have a friend that'll take the toddler.

Speaker 3 Whoa.

Speaker 7 Whoa, okay. So,

Speaker 7 gosh, this is like, okay, because I guess like you, you saying the word relinquished almost doesn't sound right in this situation because it sounds like you're talking about actual like selling and purchasing like of babies.

Speaker 6 Sure.

Speaker 6 She had an attorney and there was like a back door like Southside Adoption Agency. Like they, if you

Speaker 6 seemed okay, they were signing the papers. Wow.

Speaker 5 So what about like your story? Were you an infant? Were you kept with her for a period of time?

Speaker 3 I was.

Speaker 6 She kept me for two months.

Speaker 5 Oh, wow.

Speaker 6 And that's what she liked to do. She liked to like keep us for about two months.

Speaker 6 There's something like about that amount of time. I don't know really.

Speaker 6 She never really said. And there was like nothing in any of the like diaries or journals that I found that would give me a reason for that.

Speaker 6 The only thing I could think of is like, so that she could make sure that we get traumatized because we like were connected to her. And then she just like

Speaker 6 over.

Speaker 7 So this was all through an agency. You're saying it's an agency, adoption agency that was in Chicago, but I'm assuming it's not running anymore.

Speaker 6 I don't think it was like an actual adoption agency. I think she went through an attorney and then this attorney had like this office of social workers like that he worked with.

Speaker 6 It was called like the HADA Foundation, H-E-D-A.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 they would come and like check the house and like talk to the adoptive parents and then like sign the the thing and say it was fine.

Speaker 7 And so in the attorney paperwork, it like says the price like or how like what she was trying to sell the babies for?

Speaker 6 So I have like some checks and balances books and stuff. And I see like what, you know, what was going on and how much it was.

Speaker 6 And then even like after she placed the babies, like two months after the babies were out of her care, she was getting like a lump sum.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, what are, what are these for? Right.

Speaker 6 Like, why are you getting 10 grand more like two months after?

Speaker 5 And see, and that's scary in itself because, you know, if you

Speaker 5 don't know who these adoptive parents really are, like, they could be child abusers, molesters, uh, sex traffickers. Like, you're just going to see a like, that's mind-blowing.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think you're, I think your story is unique because, you know, a lot of the times in the adoption world, we see, you know, obviously the beautiful picture that people like to paint of it, that like, you know, a selfless, quote-unquote, selfless birth mom, you know, relinquishing her baby to these, you know, hopeful,

Speaker 7 you know, people. And it's like, people don't like to like,

Speaker 7 you know, categorize like finances, money with babies. And that's really what yours is like.
That's, that's what it is.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And a lot of the adoptions in the 80s are were like that.
Like if you had money, you could get a baby pretty, pretty easily.

Speaker 6 And my birth mom had a thing for Jewish women because she knows that like Jewish people take care of their kids.

Speaker 6 They're big on community and family, and that they have money, and that's you know, she only gave her kids to Jewish people.

Speaker 7 Wow, so, so, all of your, you and your all your siblings are raised Jewish, uh, yeah,

Speaker 6 um, Ryan, though, unfortunately passed away when he was 17 from a heroin overdose.

Speaker 6 Oh, I'm sorry, um, and I didn't get to find him, yeah, so it was right, and I like found, I was like 15, and like he had just died when I tracked them down.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's so sad.

Speaker 6 His mom like hung up on me.

Speaker 7 Yeah, see, I honestly feel like people don't get to hear that a lot either.

Speaker 7 That I have gotten flooded with messages of adoptees saying, I finally turned 18 or even I finally got the courage to search and I searched and it's too late.

Speaker 7 And I feel like that kind of like, regardless if the reunion is a happy thing or a bad thing, the adoptee deserves to have that

Speaker 7 closure or that kind of just that reunion is vital to the adoptee. So So I always feel like people don't get that, like, oh, well, wait till they're 18.

Speaker 5 Well, sometimes that's not really life is life, and life is crazy. And some people pass sooner than later, you know.

Speaker 7 And that's unfortunate, but I feel like it goes to show the importance of like allowing the

Speaker 7 access. You know, it's important, right?

Speaker 6 Right. Well, once like I found my birth mother when I was like 14, going through my parents' stuff, there was like no, um,

Speaker 6 there was no like boundaries of access at that point. Like, she could contact me when she wanted, and I would contact her when I wanted mainly more.
It was me wanting, like,

Speaker 6 I guess if I like think about it after reading her diaries and stuff, like it was, it was me that was like wanting the relationship, wanting the connection.

Speaker 6 I would just like come there whenever, because she was like only an hour away. So, like, I would get my parents, and I would have like my boyfriend or whoever drive me to her house.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So did you so when you were growing up, you know, young child, did you always know that you were adopted?

Speaker 6 Yeah, my parents told me when

Speaker 6 they were pregnant with my younger brother.

Speaker 6 So I was like three, you know? Okay. And they I was like talking about being in my mom's belly and she was like, well, no, you were in like another lady's belly.

Speaker 5 And so and so my other question would be, so was your birth mom involved your whole entire life or just when you were wanting it, wanting her to be around?

Speaker 6 No, she was not.

Speaker 6 She was not involved, but like she was close. She told me that like she always checked in on us and that like she always knew where we were and she could see us whenever she wanted.

Speaker 6 She would like come by our schools or whatever. And I don't know if that's true or not, but once, you know, once I was like 14 and I found her, then that was, like, that was it.

Speaker 7 And you found her all on your own? Like, did your parents help you at all? Or did you just kind of do it by yourself?

Speaker 6 No, they have like, they had like a white binder full of information about like our my biological parents and like who my brother's dad could be who my dad could be um because we all have different dads so there's just like random notes and stuff and there was a name and it said like lake geneva wisconsin so i was like all right like what's you know, what's the worst that can happen?

Speaker 6 It's not listed. And, like, we had first just gotten a computer.
And so, like, I was using whitepages.com. And I looked her up.
And then I had like my own line in my bedroom.

Speaker 6 It was like, you know.

Speaker 5 It was the coolest kid. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 You were the cool kid.

Speaker 7 Having your own phone line in your room.

Speaker 6 I had my own line in my room. And like one of those like see-through phones.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 6 And, you know, I called her.

Speaker 6 and like it was like hearing my own voice like on the other side of the phone like i i sound like her she's got like a lot sweeter of a sound but like when she picked up the phone and i was just like a little girl i was like hello right you know like so what's your problem like what's wrong with me why

Speaker 6 why didn't you want me and did she tell you like did she was she upfront with you right away No, she was like, there's nothing wrong with you, honey.

Speaker 3 Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 6 I always always loved you. It was my blood on the table.
I was trying to protect you. Your father couldn't read.
Well, I text with my father all the time and he can fucking read.

Speaker 7 Wow. So she actually told you stuff about your biological dad that wasn't true.

Speaker 6 Oh, so many things about him that like aren't aren't true, aren't accurate. Like in her opinion, like.

Speaker 6 You know, she talked about my grandma and that was like a big part of it. She didn't want my grandma raising me.
She wanted like to be a family, but no, she didn't. Kathy said that she

Speaker 6 moved back, like took off once she knew that the pregnancy was like solid. And like, she knew that I was a girl before she left Florida and went back to Wisconsin and started plotting.

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Speaker 3 We're all out of the ordinary.

Speaker 7 So how did you meet your biological dad? How did that happen?

Speaker 6 She gave, She gave my parents the information, like the names and stuff.

Speaker 6 It was always there, but I don't think that she thought I would find them.

Speaker 6 Like in one of the journals, she's like, there are like 300 infantes in Tampa, Florida, and I'm not, I've only called three or something.

Speaker 6 Like, she was just like, I'm like, okay, well, this is child's play because I've figured it out myself.

Speaker 5 And do you still have a relationship like today with your biological father?

Speaker 6 I do. I do.
I just saw him in December. We went to Florida and so we saw him and he was able to meet my sons because he's only met my oldest.

Speaker 6 So that was kind of fun for them.

Speaker 7 Oh, wow. So how many kids do you have?

Speaker 6 I have three.

Speaker 7 Okay. And what are the ages of the kids?

Speaker 6 17, 9, and 4.

Speaker 3 Okay, you're yeah, you gotta spread out there.

Speaker 7 You're in the mix.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I was pregnant with Star when like the first season came out for you guys. And I just was like, I just remember watching and I was like, hmm, I wonder how this is going to be.

Speaker 6 Like, I wonder, like, I wonder what's going to happen. Like, is she, how's she going to grow up? Like, are they going to stay in contact with her? Like, I just, I always, you know, wondered about it.

Speaker 6 You know, you like forget. like the random people that were like on the shows that like don't really stick out.

Speaker 6 And like for me, I like Janelle because her relationship with her mom like reminds me of me and my mom. And I was always like, Barbara, fuck off.

Speaker 3 Like someone is

Speaker 3 so burst.

Speaker 6 And then you guys, because I'm adopted and I was just like, you know, I think that's like great that they were able to be like, okay.

Speaker 7 like maybe now is not the time and then you guys are like still together and all of that so i feel like that's like also like really great yeah i mean i feel like a lot of you know even adoptees or or birth parents or adoptive parents we always get the same kind of message that like you know remember some of the episodes some of the iconic moments but the story of the adoption was really kind of something that sticks with people uh we realize and they also i mean we've also realized that you know ever since our show premiered we haven't really seen another real adoption story play out the way this one has no one Yeah, so I think it's kind of we're in a unique position, which is why we wanted to even, you know, do this podcast.

Speaker 7 Our whole point is just to get the stories of adoptees because we know there's so many like nuances with it. And

Speaker 7 I think it'll serve people better if we understand that you can't put all adoptees into one box. And you can't, you know, some of them have really good reunion stories.

Speaker 7 Some of them have really bad ones. Some of them wish they never met their bio family and some of them wish they never were adopted in the first place.

Speaker 7 So I think in order to kind of bridge the gap, I feel like we need to like, you know, share these stories.

Speaker 7 And I thought, you know, hearing a little bit of your story online that you shared was just one thing that kind of hit both of us.

Speaker 7 And we were like, you know, this is important and needs to be talked about.

Speaker 5 Well, and I feel like when I, when I came across your video on TikTok about, you know, you having that conversation with your adoptive mom about like, she asked you not to change my name, why did you change my name?

Speaker 5 And when I first saw that video, that was like me in the beginning of kind of coming out of my own fog of being a birth mom, you know, and it was just like, whoa, it was just intense to watch.

Speaker 5 And you were, you were one of the first adoptees that I saw on TikTok.

Speaker 5 And I wanted to ask you a question, though, since your birth mom was like keeping these babies for a little bit and that, and then selling these babies and stuff, um, the birth fathers, did your birth father even know that you were being placed for adoption?

Speaker 6 Oh my god, so the rest of the men are like scumbags, like low lifes, like probably didn't care, probably didn't even know she was pregnant.

Speaker 6 Like one of them was married for sure, but like my dad wanted me and he was wanting to like be a family. Like he didn't really like her all that much, but like it was what it was and she was pregnant.

Speaker 6 So he was going to try to do the rat thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Says, you know, and and he then she just like took off. He said she took off and they tried to find her.
My grandpa tried to find her.

Speaker 6 And every time they got close, she was like two per like 10 steps ahead of them you know she just they couldn't they couldn't find her and then in my adoption paperwork she said she didn't know who the father was that's not true like at all so then when I did contact my birth father they first they asked for a DNA test obviously to confirm and we did and then like after that we've had a pretty solid relationship like i'm have cousin a cousin i have two cousins, but one that like I talk to more, and the other is, like, 10 years younger than me.

Speaker 6 So, I don't really.

Speaker 5 Well, and how sad for him to yeah, you know what I mean? Not, I mean, even, even you, but also for him to, like, you know, know that this baby is out there and want to parent this baby.

Speaker 5 And I feel like birth model, like adoption, adoption agencies will tell the parents, like, if you don't want the dad to come fighting, or you just say, you don't know who the father is.

Speaker 5 You know what I mean? Like, I've, I've seen that a lot. And I know that's one of the ways that they can kind of go around things.

Speaker 5 But it's like, that's horrible for him because then he's going through life knowing you're out there somewhere.

Speaker 6 He met a woman who he's still with now. And she told me that when she met him, it was about like 10 years after,

Speaker 6 you know, after he had.

Speaker 6 split up or after she had taken off maybe a little bit less maybe like eight years something like that but she said that he was like really like sad about it still and and told her like I have a kid maybe somewhere someday that you know might find me that's so sad wow they wanted me so like once I contacted them my grandma was like about it she was like come visit

Speaker 7 so was what who was who was the first biological relative that you met in person

Speaker 7 oh okay yeah so her birth mom yeah so what like well no brother because we were adopted into the same family so we were raised together oh you were okay yeah i didn't know that yeah i didn't know that so let's okay so establish the family dynamics here okay so you have a you have um your parents have a biological child like you said right your your brother they got one more of nikki's babies okay okay so you so That's actually rare because not a lot of adoptees get to be raised with their biological siblings.

Speaker 7 So was that two separate times? Like this was two, like, so she went back and said, hey i want another baby or

Speaker 6 she got pregnant like immediately i feel like because me and my brother are 13 months apart

Speaker 6 she got rid of me and got she must have like moved in with scott and like got pregnant with eddie right then and then quickly it was over and she had to get a restraining order on him because he told her he didn't want any more kids and he wasn't interested in kids and like you know and then she got one anyway so he like left wow okay and so then obviously she contacted your parents and was like hey i have another baby contacted the attorney okay was like the if they because my mom basically was like if you get pregnant again let us know you know so she's not alone yeah so okay so so you're you're your your mom is it so she's able to have biological children uh she wasn't until she like adopted the baby so like babies make your body make hormones yeah I've heard that.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 6 So like sometimes you can, if you couldn't get pregnant, then you have a baby around you, then you can all of a sudden.

Speaker 7 So she did not know she could have children until after adopting.

Speaker 6 Well, yeah, no, she tried and like they had IVF and like I have their whole IVF thing in my binder because she was like trying to like show me like we tried and we couldn't and so we decided to do this.

Speaker 5 Wow.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's really intense because I I feel like that's also like, I feel like, you know, a lot of people don't understand how that is.

Speaker 7 I've heard another adoptee tell me that, you know, she had the same situation happen to her where her parents ended up, you know, miraculously being able to have a biological child after adopting her.

Speaker 7 And she said the moment that baby came home, she felt, I mean, she's like, I just, I could tell. I could tell there was

Speaker 3 just a difference.

Speaker 7 Yeah, she's like, I could just shift in the dynamic.

Speaker 7 And I think people just imagine that it doesn't affect an adoptee as much as they think it would having another biological child that you know is, you know, that's that's their baby and you know, you're biologically not, and that's a whole different thing to be, you know, raised around.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, for sure. And my brother is like the good one.

Speaker 6 Their biological child is the good one.

Speaker 6 Me and Eddie are trouble.

Speaker 5 And how, how is your how was your relationship with your adoptive parents growing up? And like, how is it now?

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 6 growing up, it was very strained. Uh, I told like therapists that like I wasn't able to connect with them, that we don't have anything in common.

Speaker 6 You know, I'm like having trouble like meeting their expectations, stuff like that.

Speaker 6 Now it's like it's okay for the most part, but like we have our

Speaker 6 stuff.

Speaker 6 We live in a multi-general generational household for like half the year and then they snowbird to Arizona and I like can breathe.

Speaker 6 But while they're here, like like my mom is pretty overbearing and tries to like

Speaker 5 be controlling and you've heard like in that one clip like that's generally how she's talking and so to go back to that tick tock video that people witnessed online so you were going through paperworks and you did you saw something to where your biological mom wanted you to keep your full your first name or your or your whole name

Speaker 6 She wanted me to keep my first name.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 5 And so obviously it seemed like in that video that you were very upset that your adoptive parents didn't listen to her on that. Can you kind of express why it was...

Speaker 6 Well, so I just felt if they agreed not to change it, why would they change it? And I had already, I was two months old, so I already knew my name.

Speaker 6 Like I already, I had a name and she asked you not to change it. And you said you wouldn't, and then you did.
And that's rude.

Speaker 6 And like, also, my birth mother called me Jesse, like, the whole time I knew her.

Speaker 6 Like, she would not call me Diana ever.

Speaker 6 So, like, when she would call me, she'd be like, hi, Jesse. Or, like, when she would see me in person, like, she would call me Jesse.

Speaker 7 And what did that feel like for you? Because that had to be kind of weird.

Speaker 6 I feel like that was probably maybe like. I don't know, confusing at the time.

Speaker 6 Probably made me feel like I had like two people.

Speaker 7 it goes back to like you feeling like you have to, like you said earlier about expectations that your mom had, kind of like you know, living up to their expectations, and then you meet your birth mom and she's calling you by a totally different name.

Speaker 7 Right? Like, that's another kind of like expectation to kind of like be okay with. I feel like that's pretty common across what I've witnessed with a lot of other adoptees.

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Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, you know, it just like it's weird because this like one person

Speaker 6 says all of these things and that it's like one way.

Speaker 6 And then these other people

Speaker 6 who are also your parents are like telling you all of these other things and that it's a different way and it's hard to kind of figure out like where

Speaker 6 where you fit in or like find your truth and I guess like that's kind of what I've been doing since my mom died I have been trying to get her stuff from her friend who like hoarded it for like seven years and finally gave it to me

Speaker 6 after telling me like it didn't exist but it does and so now I'm like able to really like sort through all of her stuff all of her pictures and like build myself a story and a timeline that really does make sense that fills in the blanks like I know everything about her, you know, some things I wish I didn't know.

Speaker 6 Just like at this point, like, I'm not sure if all of this information was helpful, but a lot of it was.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And I was going to say, like, if anything, adoptees deserve that.
They deserve to have answers to the questions that they have.

Speaker 5 Like, they deserve to know certain things and for it to not just be one big secret.

Speaker 7 I also feel like they deserve the dignity to

Speaker 7 find out for themselves and make that decision. Like, I know some of the stuff you said, you wish you never never would have known, but you do know.

Speaker 7 And so, it's like, I mean, to be in the dark about certain stuff isn't, you know, it just creates this feeling of just like unsettling, you know, where do I fit in? What am I?

Speaker 7 And it's like, you know, a lot of us have dark parts of our story that we probably wish, you know, wasn't there.

Speaker 7 But at the end of the end of the day, at least we had the dignity to know. And we deserve that.
We deserve to know those things and have that be part of kind of our character.

Speaker 7 But I feel like the video that we watched when you were talking to your mom, um,

Speaker 7 like it was, it was emotional because I could sense that you were trying so hard to just be neutral and try to talk and say how you felt. And it felt so dismissive.

Speaker 5 She did feel dissing.

Speaker 7 You know, and I don't mean to be like harsh, but it

Speaker 6 I'm being dismissive and dissing. That's what her like word is dissing.

Speaker 6 I'm dissing like her her name that she picked for me that was like someone from her family.

Speaker 5 Well, and it's like, no, you were just asking the question.

Speaker 5 Like, she asked you, Why did you change my name when you told her you made a promise to her that you wouldn't, but then you adopt me, and then you go behind her back and you change my name, anyways.

Speaker 7 Like, well, I feel like you have a right to also know that, like, I have a right to make a choice on what my identity or at least discover what my identity is, and for you to just take the very first thing away from me before I even consented to it, you know.

Speaker 7 I mean, that's that's not fair.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I

Speaker 6 definitely was not like

Speaker 6 happy at that time with like the information that I had in front of me. And that was even before I got all of her stuff.

Speaker 6 That was just like in some notes that I've had this whole time that I just like looked over, must not have like read

Speaker 6 or something.

Speaker 6 You know, because every now and then I'll get super interested and like try and dig in and try and find my missing link brother who thanks to ancestry, you know, now I have.

Speaker 6 And like he didn't know about me, but I knew about him.

Speaker 3 So I have known about him my whole, my whole life since I was like 14 years old.

Speaker 6 So like when I, when he found us and like, I was talking to him and I asked like his birthday and stuff and he told me, I was like, no, it's not. I was like, yeah, right.

Speaker 6 Like, you're really him. I was like, oh my God, I've been looking for you my whole life.

Speaker 3 And like, he's like my best friend.

Speaker 6 Like, I, we are like two peas in a pod.

Speaker 6 he's very crazy but i love him but what was that like for the first time like meeting him this brother that you knew you had out there your whole entire life um it was i don't know it was like interesting it was like we were like we met at we went out to dinner and i brought my friend to california with me my best friend since i was five because i was like i can't do this by myself i need you to come with me She's like, okay.

Speaker 6 So like I, we met at a restaurant and like it was, we were just like kind of sitting next to each other and just like looking at each other, like kind of like seeing like I guess looking for like the mirroring the genetic mirroring which there there is also he's very short and I like to like pick on him a lot about it I feel like as the little sister I should have been roasting Lord Fourquad my whole life

Speaker 7 so now you're making up for pastime yeah yeah

Speaker 5 So you mentioned that you say your biological mother ended up passing away.

Speaker 6 She did.

Speaker 5 Okay, how long ago was that?

Speaker 6 She passed away in 2017 in June.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 6 The coroner says it's a heart. It's it was a heart attack.
If you let her crazy friends tell you, the mob finally tracked her down and made it look like a heart attack.

Speaker 7 So yeah,

Speaker 3 will you explain that stuff? I'm like, what?

Speaker 5 The tigers and the mom.

Speaker 3 What's happening?

Speaker 5 Was this just some like fake story or is all this crap real?

Speaker 6 Oh, okay. So like my mom was, she was born the youngest of 10 children

Speaker 6 to a mother who was like, she was working in hotels and she was like sleeping with a married man and like all of her kids were like living with different sisters that she had because her husband and some of her kids passed away in a car accident.

Speaker 6 Like a freak accident, like some trailer accident, you know, something like that,

Speaker 6 probably like in the late 40s, because my mom was born in 1951.

Speaker 6 And she, they had her like staying in boarding houses for the two first two years of her life. And then her uncle adopted her and took her to Florida.

Speaker 6 And she kind of like grew up there. She had a friend

Speaker 6 that she

Speaker 6 made that had like a brother and she was very close with this family,

Speaker 6 this woman, Renee, and like her brother Alan. And like, my birth mother made up a lot of things.

Speaker 6 So, like, as I was like going and learning, like, I have to figure out like what's what's true and what's not. Um, sometime while she was in Tampa, she was like hanging out with like mobsters.

Speaker 6 And, like, there's this man named Harlan Blackburn, and you can, like, read books about him. He ran this thing in Tampa called the Bolita Lottery, and it was like a racket, like a

Speaker 6 gambling racket or something. Not legal, obviously.
They're like gambling. And then she was like hanging out with mobsters from like the Tampa mafia and like from the Miami mafia.

Speaker 6 And she had like all of these connections. And her and my brother's dad got busted for something and basically agreed to snitch.

Speaker 3 And they

Speaker 6 put her, Bill went to jail, but they put her in witness protection

Speaker 6 and like were trying to have her testify. And then she like ran away from witness protection.
And then she like contacted the people that she was supposed to be being protected against.

Speaker 6 She ended up like not showing up for like the court date. There's all these like newspaper articles.
Like she was, they could not find her.

Speaker 6 And then she like never, she didn't have her original documents because she was in witness protection and she was erased.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 6 she like, she had this identity, this new identity and she like picked a last name from one of her husbands and she just like went with it and she became nikki martin and um you know they never they they didn't track her down in little wisconsin you know what a crazy story

Speaker 6 but so she ended up being an adopt like an adopted herself at a young age yes yes but like by her by her maternal uncle like someone like from her family right still right you know not like random people true how was how was your relationship with your um with your dad my adopted dad yeah um it's okay okay he's just like he worked a lot and he is a quiet person in general he's like the strong silent type like my dad worked and exercised and like sometimes was home but like really he was like overseas like traveling my dad was my parents were really like busy with their uh their jobs.

Speaker 7 And what and what did they do? Yeah, because what

Speaker 6 were manufacturers, reps. So basically, they like get products and sell them to companies.
But do you remember Creighton Barrel?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Okay, so my mom was like the main distributor and the main buyer for Creighton Barrel.

Speaker 6 So like anything that you saw at Creighton Barrel from like 1980 until like 1999 or like the early 2000s, my mom hand selected from different places for them to sell.

Speaker 7 So that's how you had a landline in your room.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Growing up.

Speaker 6 And my dad like works, worked very closely with the creation of Costco and stuff.

Speaker 3 Oh wow.

Speaker 6 They both were very like my mom worked at home, but like my dad traveled. We did have like babysitters and like nannies.

Speaker 7 We had like a live in, you know, so you would say, I mean, so being raised, I mean, financially, pretty privileged, pretty well off, not in a bad situation.

Speaker 6 no um but you know I always say that just because the cage is gold it doesn't make it less of a cage I agree

Speaker 6 you know I still get like

Speaker 6 my mom tries to control things that I do and say even like on Facebook she'll be like I don't like that take that down so I'm like I'm just gonna put you on restricted because I'm gonna post whatever I want right like how are you gonna control everything

Speaker 6 how does she feel about you kind of sharing your story um she thinks it's fine as long as she doesn't get in any trouble okay there's backlash on me i'm like i am 38 years old what backlash is coming like the attorney is dead the mother is dead like most of the fathers are dead one of the children also dead like you know i'm like what are who's coming yeah i wonder if she means just like public and it's like well you shouldn't be ashamed of anything you did then you're obviously ashamed of ways you did things if you're worried about the backlash like i've asked i've been like, So, how legal was this?

Speaker 3 Legal enough, legal enough.

Speaker 7 And that's kind of where I'm like, you know, I feel like the lack of transparency when it comes to adoption to all people involved is just never good for anybody.

Speaker 7 It's like, like, it's just never, it never serves anybody.

Speaker 7 And I feel like if you know, even birth parents, you know, I've heard stories of birth parents not telling their kids they have afterwards that they have that they place a baby and they have a sibling out there.

Speaker 7 Like, you can't, we can't keep operating in this shame shadow because it ruins, it just affects people.

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Speaker 6 Oh, for sure.

Speaker 6 I actually asked my mom, like, maybe last week, even, because I was like, just after I learned all this stuff and like reached out to Kathy and hunted this poor little librarian who wanted nothing to do with the wild, wild west anymore.

Speaker 6 Like, I hunted her down and talked to her. And then I was like, talking to my mom, I was like, why did you say like

Speaker 6 this woman like cared about me or or us like really at all?

Speaker 3 And she's like, I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 6 She's like, I thought she did. She thought she was helping.
She's like, I was trying to make it sound better.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, you shouldn't have

Speaker 6 because it's not better.

Speaker 7 Well, yeah, because then you get disappointed because then you find out that none of this is, it's not the way that you were raised thinking it was, you know, and that's devastating on top of already all the losses that come along with being an adoptee in the first place.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 6 And like, I suspected that she used herself as a baby factory, but like to have it completely confirmed, like, and this woman basically walked me through each pregnancy, like each adoption, like each time she talked with the lawyer, like how she's like, what she did to your dad made me sick.

Speaker 6 I'm like, what did she do to him? Please tell me. And this lady told me like where my dad's house was.

Speaker 6 Like, so she knows like she's not just like making up stuff to talk on the phone to like some girl that is the daughter of someone she knew like she knows what she's talking about and she even said she's like you would be the third child right oh wow

Speaker 6 uh yes that's me and how and so wait again uh refresh my so how many did she have that she ended up selling in total four four okay okay But she told people that she had like an older daughter one time.

Speaker 6 Like there's people that believe that like some baby died of SIDS, some girl, some little girl. But I don't think that's true.

Speaker 6 Just in my professional opinion, based off of everything I know, I think it's a lie. And she also said that we have like an older brother whose name is Sean, who is significantly older than us.

Speaker 6 There is a Sean. He is not our brother.
He is her friend, Renee's son.

Speaker 3 Oh, okay.

Speaker 6 But for some reason, my mother decided that she was the mother and like spun this whole story,

Speaker 6 even wrote his birth story down.

Speaker 3 Oh, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 5 I take it that she struggles with some mental health issues.

Speaker 6 Oh, for sure. Yeah, some mental health, for sure.

Speaker 6 Some diagnoses that are accurate, but some, from what I understand, she was like amping that shit up.

Speaker 6 So she would like go, she would take her card, leave it at the mall, and then go home and call the police, say she didn't know where her car was, that she just walked in the door and doesn't know where she came from, how she got there.

Speaker 6 They would take her to the hospital, they would document it. And so like so many times of this, then she gets a new diagnosis of like multiple personality disorder.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow.

Speaker 6 Not remembering. So like, I don't know if she even had that, but like bipolar for sure.
Psychosis, 100%.

Speaker 6 Like

Speaker 6 she wasn't normal. And then after the babies, that's when she got into like the large cats.
And she started like.

Speaker 5 Yeah, talk about the large cat things.

Speaker 3 Because I just saw that on your TikTok the other day and I was like, what the fuck is going on?

Speaker 6 She like, I don't know, I guess she like got enough money selling her four children that she was able to purchase some exotic cats and she got some men to go into business with her because she was cute and little and she used it.

Speaker 3 She did.

Speaker 6 And she got all these cats and she was breeding them and she had like a sanctuary and she was like doing like shows at schools, like educational shows at schools with these cats. Like, she was doing,

Speaker 6 if you didn't know all the crap, bad things she did in her life before that, you would think like she was doing pretty good.

Speaker 5 So, that's like some Tiger King shit.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's why I always like make like references a little bit. Like,

Speaker 6 and everybody asks me, they're like, Is Carol Baskin your mom?

Speaker 3 I'm like, No,

Speaker 6 Carol Baskin's Uggo, first of all, don't insult me.

Speaker 5 So, your biomark wasn't like tigers and lions and shit yeah that is crazy and she had them when i met her so like the first day i met her i met her tiger her leopard her

Speaker 7 servile like her monkey her lemur what her goats you must have been so you must have been like going through a whirlwind of of insanity Because that sound, I could like, even just like.

Speaker 6 And I was 14.

Speaker 3 Right. Oh, my God.

Speaker 7 And so were your parents,

Speaker 7 did they like, go with you when you met her? Did they?

Speaker 6 Mom took me. We have a video, like a VHS video.

Speaker 6 And she's like recording me in the car. She's like, we're going.
Like, blah, blah, blah. We like meet this lady.
And like, I'm watching and I'm watching like her face.

Speaker 6 And I'm like, well, she's not excited to see me at all.

Speaker 6 She's like, fuck.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 6 Like, like, she obviously, like, she has anxiety and her own issues. Like, she had her windows tinfoiled.
So, and that was then.

Speaker 6 And she was, like, probably the healthiest that she'd ever been mentally when I first met her.

Speaker 7 And she still had tinfoil on the windows.

Speaker 6 Oh, she did.

Speaker 7 At her healthiest.

Speaker 6 Her house was like a hoarder house. Like, you could not walk around in there, really.
Like, the bathroom was like barely usable.

Speaker 5 She do drugs.

Speaker 3 Who?

Speaker 5 Your biological mom?

Speaker 6 She did. Well, she tries to say she didn't, but she definitely did.
And I found in some notes that she, I thought that she probably did opiates when she was pregnant with me, but I wasn't sure.

Speaker 6 But then

Speaker 6 I saw in some notes that she was on like Delauden and like volumes. So yeah, she did take an opiate probably the whole time.

Speaker 5 Well, and that's sad, just like you saying, like that was your first reaction, meeting her for the first time was like, wow, she doesn't look happy to see me. Like, that's sad.

Speaker 6 Well, I think at the time, like, we both probably were feeling very anxious

Speaker 6 now watching the video and like seeing everyone's face from like this outside entity

Speaker 6 You know, I just like look at her kind of different

Speaker 6 of course my mom wanted me to go and like meet this lady so that like I could feel whole and that's also why she took me to meet my dad so that I could like maybe it would help me with my my problems.

Speaker 7 So do you think your mom was doing her intentions were pure when she was taking you to meet them?

Speaker 6 Well, yeah, I mean at that point she was like okay well she dug them up so i may as well just like let's just do this let's just let her

Speaker 6 was she upset that you dug them up uh no okay it doesn't doesn't seem that way i mean like once like maybe a couple times in life she's been like and how do you think it makes me feel you know but like not not really

Speaker 6 That I don't that I'm rejecting her. It's just that I'm also like trying to get something else.
Like, I need more information. I need to know who I am, where I came from, why I'm like this.

Speaker 3 Of course.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so does your bio, does your biological brother, did he feel the same way?

Speaker 6 So actually, my brothers both don't give.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 6 Michael probably, if she was alive, he probably would have wanted, you know, and Eddie did have a relationship with her, but like towards the end, it was, she was really sick in the head towards the end.

Speaker 6 So it wasn't, she had faked her death before. So when she died and her friend called us and told us,

Speaker 6 I was like, I don't know if I believe this, like not to be addicted.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But like, I'm like, I need to go talk to my brother. And I like went and I was like, knocked on his bedroom door at the time.
And I was like, ah, this lady says she's dead.

Speaker 6 And he's like, well, I don't know if that's true. He's like, see if you can get the, he's like, get more information.
Get more information. He's like, I just talked to her last week.

Speaker 6 I'm like, okay, so she couldn't be dead now.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 6 And he's like, just get more information. I don't know if I believe that.
I'm like, me too. So I call this lady back and she's like, well, you can call the funeral home.

Speaker 3 Figure it out.

Speaker 6 Cause they live in like a small, small town in Wisconsin. So like the corner is the funeral home.

Speaker 3 Like, okay.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 So I called there and they're like, yeah, we have her. They're like,

Speaker 6 you know, are you? I'm like, well, like, legally, we're not like her anything.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 6 But that is my, our mother, you know, and they were were like okay so like they let us claim the like next of kin thing they let us come um but she was like a ward of the state so they did everything was paid for by the state um they cremated her i had them set up like a funeral for her friends to come and like do like a little visitation um but she was like four hours away in wisconsin so when me and my brother went um i remember them like pulling bringing her up for so we could like see her and i was like that's not even her and eddie my brother he's like yeah it is i'm like no i want to see her tattoos move move the move the sheet you know and then like i was like okay fine so you were you're almost like you're like i want to confirm like i need to confirm like i want i need to see like for sure i have to say though i feel like you even doing the whole

Speaker 7 you know, taking the responsibility of being next of kin and just doing the whole funeral thing.

Speaker 7 I mean, that was something that that's really generous of you to do, especially considering the relationship that you guys had. I mean, that's that's amazing

Speaker 6 that she really was a baby dealing

Speaker 6 oh okay so this is all before yeah this was all before so this was like when i knew her like i didn't have all this information i got all of this information after she died after she died

Speaker 3 wow

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Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 6 Told me she was writing journals for me and doing this like for my whole life.

Speaker 6 And when she died, her friend who like hoarded this stuff, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to come with my brother so I can get the stuff.

Speaker 6 Like, I want my journals, I want the photos, I want the history, I want it all. And this lady's like, it doesn't exist.
I don't know what you're talking about, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 6 And then, like, over the years, I've contacted her every now and then and been like, are you sure? Like, I just like, I know that, like, she had this stuff for me.

Speaker 6 Like, a lot of things she said weren't true, but like, I know that, like, this was true. Like, I know that she did have this journal for me.
And, like, I want it.

Speaker 6 So, when my brother found me through ancestry,

Speaker 6 it was actually through a link through my mother's half-sister. And she contacted this friend and was like, someone says they're,

Speaker 6 you know, and then this friend contacted me and was like, well, you have a hit on ancestry DNA. I'm like, how do you know you're not related to us? And she's like, well, I've had this information.

Speaker 6 I actually do have it. And you should call this phone number.

Speaker 3 And I was like,

Speaker 6 You have all her stuff, and you've been telling me you didn't have it. Like, why were you afraid? Like, I wouldn't keep in contact with you.
Like, was there something?

Speaker 6 She's like, I was protecting you from the information. Like, she didn't want you to have the information until she was sure that like all these mafia people were gone.
Like, it is 2025.

Speaker 6 There is no mafia.

Speaker 3 Like,

Speaker 5 yeah, because you said when she died, she was ward of the state. Was that for like mental health reasonings?

Speaker 6 Um, no, because she was like on public aid and stuff.

Speaker 3 Like

Speaker 6 when she like left and ran away from witness protection, she like got on all the government like assistance.

Speaker 6 Um she got like money and food and then she had this like non-for-profit tiger thing after the kids. So she was able to like filter money in that way.

Speaker 3 Right. Okay.

Speaker 5 Your story is just

Speaker 3 insane.

Speaker 5 It's insane. Yeah, it is.
And it's mind-blowing.

Speaker 5 And especially,

Speaker 5 I can't imagine the rage that you felt after she died and come to find out that she really was just getting pregnant to sell these babies. Like that.

Speaker 6 I was pissed last week. I was having a, like a rough time.
I was like, cool. So I was like born for no reason.
I know like that's.

Speaker 5 But you know, that's not true.

Speaker 6 Deeply, right? No, I know. And like, I was like just feeling bad.
And like my daughter, actually, my 17-year-old, she's like, mom, that doesn't mean that she didn't want you or any of that.

Speaker 6 She just wanted money. And that's what she wanted.
And she's like, and what she did with you and your brothers had nothing to do with you.

Speaker 7 Or your value. I mean, think about it.
Your 17-year-old probably is really happy that you're here. You know what I mean?

Speaker 7 I mean, so like, even though you think I wasn't born for a reason, but it's like, there's ripple effects that

Speaker 7 happen to everyone's life that, you know.

Speaker 5 But I can understand that being really painful to find out in those thoughts, yes, and feeling like wow, I meant nothing but money, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Like, that is hurtful, yeah.

Speaker 6 And it's my dad, like, you didn't have to do that, you could have given me to him, like, yeah,

Speaker 7 did now your biological dad, like, did you find out any bad things about him?

Speaker 6 My dad is a very, a very, a very cool guy, and you know, he just, he just is laid back. Like, he lives in Florida, and he's just super laid back.
And he,

Speaker 6 he's the normal yeah he's normal he's a normal guy so no tigers no lions no sell no mafia he was like a house painter he likes to garden like rides a harley he's just like a simple man

Speaker 6 that had to be that had to be so healing for him for you to find for you two to find each other yeah well he definitely like appreciates it and he likes and he loves our relationship and like he sends me like memes and stuff like just like funny stuff

Speaker 7 you know and like he like he likes to hear about my sons and like that how we like have stuff in common and stuff like that you know did you did you did you like did you feel any difference when you became a mom yourself as an adoptee like did you did you feel any like sense of like i hear a lot of stories about adoptees having their own children and they become parents and it's like kind of it's hits them uh yeah you know i feel like

Speaker 6 I feel like I really like have a very deep connection like with my kids and like I study like every inch of their face and like what face they make that may look like me

Speaker 6 you know or like stuff like that like what behavior reminds me of me from them or like why they might be acting this way what they might be feeling like it's very cool for me to like see all that and learn all that and like really like be able to help my son when he is like having issues with his like behavior and stuff and I'm like, Hey, bro, like I get it, like let's work it out, right?

Speaker 7 Well, yeah, and you also kind of learn growing up that like you're not gonna put these crazy expectations on your kids that you had to feel growing up.

Speaker 7 I mean, because it obviously didn't help at all, so it's it's interesting how you're able to kind of take some stuff that happened to you and kind of you know what I mean.

Speaker 7 I mean, that's the whole point of having kids, right? Being a parent is to break generational curses, and I feel like you have a lot of generational curses going on.

Speaker 6 I'm working on it, I'm working on it, I'm trying to heal it at least. Or like, but you know, even like just not giving my kids up is like breaking

Speaker 6 that cycle, you know?

Speaker 6 And she

Speaker 6 didn't get to like see me now, but like, I know she sees me now.

Speaker 5 Oh, she does.

Speaker 6 I know she does.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 that's.

Speaker 6 like enough for me and my parents here see me

Speaker 6 and they know and like we might not always get along but they tell me that I am a good mom you know like which is huge

Speaker 7 but I who does who does we all mess up in one way or another we don't know what the hell we're doing no it's true yeah but so with your now like do your do your children have like good relationships with your parents and like you know grandma grandpa all that kind of stuff so that's all normal kids love their grandparents and the grandparents love them like my mom loves to do things with the kids She always has.

Speaker 6 And you know, they did really want to be parents, obviously, because they do help me still

Speaker 6 with my kids.

Speaker 5 That's awesome that they're good grandparents. That's important.

Speaker 6 They are. They are.

Speaker 6 My kids love them a lot.

Speaker 7 That's great. I'm glad that that's the way it is because I feel like sometimes adoptees get older and estrangement happens.

Speaker 5 kids get affected by it and you know yeah yeah i love what i love it when it's like you know adoptive parents maybe have made mistakes with their adopted children through the years, but then they can turn around and kind of be better grandparents than what they were parents.

Speaker 5 I feel like that's super important. How are some of our parents?

Speaker 6 They always make sure that we're like safe and secure and like in a, and at home in our home environment. You know, like they, when I didn't live here, like they wanted us back here, living here.

Speaker 6 So like it's not perfect and

Speaker 6 everybody has their stuff, but like they do want me to do well because they want the kids to do well. Right, right.

Speaker 6 And I always tell my mom, I'm like, we may not go about it the same way, but we do have like the same goal.

Speaker 6 And like, I wish that like in these moments of like dis-ease that like you could realize that, that like,

Speaker 6 We want the same things right for the kids, like everything. We have the same goals.
Just like my way is different than yours.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And I, and I, and that's what I'm like, part of me is like, and I'm mom.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So,

Speaker 5 you know, I might do it differently than you do it, but this is the way I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3 Yeah. For sure.

Speaker 7 But do you feel like, do you feel like growing up? I know you said that, you know, you, there's different ways of doing things. Did you notice,

Speaker 7 like, how early on did you notice that, like, okay. we have such differences where you almost can't deny that I'm adopted.

Speaker 6 Actually, like nothing really like that. People actually would tell us that we look alike when we're out.
Even now people are like, oh, you look like your mom.

Speaker 3 And me and her will like look at each other and laugh because like,

Speaker 3 okay.

Speaker 3 Well, that's funny.

Speaker 6 What do you, what do you wish?

Speaker 7 What do you wish people would know about being an adoptee and that experience that you think that society may get wrong?

Speaker 6 You know, I think that people really need to like understand that if you do choose to like adopt a child and have an adopted child in your house like you cannot be treating them different and like if someone does that needs to be corrected instead of just like accepted

Speaker 6 um you know because like not fitting in with your family and like the people that are supposed to be around you can cause you to seek um you know comfort from negative people that really shouldn't be around you, you know, and if you're feeling like you don't have connection at home, you're gonna seek it outside.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I hear mom.

Speaker 3 I hear

Speaker 3 that's right, we're about to be honest.

Speaker 3 Sounds like our house. Yeah, oh gosh, all the time.
All the time.

Speaker 5 So, for people that don't know where to find you, where can people find you at?

Speaker 6 Um, you can find me on TikTok at Black Market Baby.

Speaker 6 Um, and that's really the only one that I like use publicly. Everything else is pretty like locked down.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's fine. But I just want to say thank you for, you know, sharing your story and your crazy story.
I'm like, wow, it is so intense.

Speaker 5 And just for being vulnerable. And it's super important.
It's important to talk about, like Ty said in the beginning, like no adoptee story is ever the same in any way.

Speaker 5 And so I just want to say thank you for being vulnerable and talking about it and sharing it with us.

Speaker 6 Of course, of course. Thank you.
Thank you. I definitely like am am trying to do more stuff like this and talk about it more and like be a voice.

Speaker 6 That's like something I've wanted to do for a long time and try and, you know, advocate for other people because a lot of like adults in my age group that are adopted have a lot of like social emotional issues that like stem from them being adopted.

Speaker 6 And I find with men that they don't want to talk about it or deal with it.

Speaker 3 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And it needs to be. That's the way.
That's the way that you can heal is from talking about it and relating to other people.

Speaker 7 And I also feel like that's kind of why we're even doing this because I think the more we just keep talking about it, the more we keep shedding light and all these nuances and all these different stories, the more the conversation keeps going, the more people learn.

Speaker 7 I mean, like, like, I'm pretty sure you're still learning stuff as you go about what it's like.

Speaker 7 And, you know, I know a lot of adoptees discover certain things later in life that were like, oh, if I would have read this book or if I would have heard that story, you know, 10 years ago.

Speaker 7 Or, you know, so it's important that we don't miss the mark and we make sure that we keep kind of keep this out in the public and keep talking about it. So, I think I want to say thank you, Diana.

Speaker 7 You're doing great online, and you're, you know, sharing your story, you're being vulnerable, you're being honest, and that's all anyone can ever ask for, especially coming from an adoptee experience like your own.

Speaker 6 Yeah, thank you, I really appreciate it. Um, I'm really grateful to be here today, so thank you guys so much.

Speaker 5 Oh, thank you.

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