Genetic Mirroring and Brain Wiring: Understanding Adoptee Development w/ Psychotherapist Amy Silvia

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Okay, so guys,

welcome back to another episode of Kate and Ty Break It Down.

Today we have Psychotherapist Amy.

We're super excited to have you.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Happy to be here.

Yeah, so I think first off,

tell people who don't know who you are or what your work is or kind of how this all came about for you.

Yeah, so I'm an adoptee

and I begin just by saying that because a lot of your listeners know your story and I think you probably connected with me because of that.

And while I've been a therapist for, gosh, 32 or so years,

Over the pandemic, my children who are young adults said to me, Mom, you should really post some of your adoption story and content on Instagram

because maybe people want to hear about it.

And so I thought, you know, I'm going to put it out there.

And if all three of the other people on the planet who want to hear my story listen to me, that would be great.

So I started really taking a deep dive into the work that I do professionally with adoptees, but added in my own story so that people understood I'm coming from a background of really knowing the journey of being an adoptee and my own experience with it and my own hurdles and my own you know mental health struggles that I've had as a result of that impact and my process of working through that but also how I've taken my clinical training in this area of attachment disruption and worked with literally thousands of adoptees, birth parents,

and adoptive families.

So I just started creating content and people, it resonated with people.

Yeah, exactly.

That's exactly how I found you.

Because

I do a lot of like the hashtag adoptee talk.

I do a hashtag adoption, just kind of scroll

just to find, you know, unique stories or things that piqued my interest.

And you popped up, and I was like, wow, okay, we have an adoptee.

She's a therapist.

So she's well versed in her field.

And like, so

I thought it was interesting though, because I, you know,

it's kind of hard to find an adoption competent therapist that really like understands it.

And I, and me and Kate have even had the experience of, you know, they say they're adoption competent, right?

And then we get in the middle of a session and then, you know, me and Kate kind of will vet them a little bit on language and just see if they're, you know, how, how much they really do know.

And then you find out pretty quickly that,

yeah, adoption competence, kind of a subjective.

I totally agree.

I think it's actually a mislabel of,

I don't know, it's mismarketed in a way.

It kind of gives a stamp of approval without really given depth.

And I think that lived experience of being a part of the triad.

brings so much more to your clinical training if you're doing the piece that I'm doing.

Because we get it.

Yeah.

Right.

We know.

And honestly, there's not enough training for therapists around this.

It's hard to train someone in this life experience.

Yeah, unless you've lived it or gone through it.

It's completely different.

So obviously, you're an adoptee.

With whatever you are comfortable sharing, can you kind of give us details, whatever you're comfortable with, about your adoption?

Was it closed?

Was it open?

What your kind of your life was like with your adoptive parents?

Just kind of like a just a story of your background growing up as an adoptee.

Do you want the three-hour version or the 10-minute version?

Hey, you know what?

Whatever.

We have an hour here to speak.

So I was born in what people know as the baby scoop era, 1967.

My birth mother was a nurse.

She was 22, and she was in a relationship with a married man who was the doctor in the practice that she worked in.

Oh.

And he pretty much said, nope.

And in 1967, women had no single women had no access to birth control and they had no access to abortion.

Now, I don't know her, so I don't know if those were thoughts of hers, but that was the truth of that time.

So women who found themselves in that situation pregnant and

no support, which she had no support.

And she literally would have been viewed as like a trampy whore if she had gone through with this publicly.

So

she chose adoption.

It was private.

My parents literally like had an adopted parents had an attorney, had a discussion, exchanged paperwork.

She named me, spent five days in the hospital with me, and literally handed me to them in a parking lot in New Jersey.

So your birth mom, you're sorry.

So your birth mom named you?

She did.

Wow.

I know.

I know.

We find that

I have my original birth certificate because my adoptive father, for some reason, had the foresight, which I really appreciated.

He had a lot of shortcomings, but he did save that and kept it for me, which I never knew about until I was in my 20s.

But I always knew I was adopted.

That's special.

And so then, and also, you said that she spent five days with you in the hospital.

And because my adoptive mom is also a nurse, they work, my mom worked in the hospital where my birth mother gave birth to me.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

So she would go up and visit me.

You know, the two of them would sit with me,

which was part of my story that I loved because I had an adoptive mom that let me ask those questions.

Like, I think I asked that question to her a hundred million times.

Tell me about the day you met my birth mother.

Wow.

And she would always share it with me.

She always talked about it.

Unfortunately, she also told me that weird thing, like she loved you so much, she gave you away, and that she would always want to meet you again.

And so I grew up on that.

And fast forward to 1996, when I reached out to her, that was not the case.

She immediately like rejected me, said,

nobody knows about you.

You were a secret.

Stay away.

Don't come near me.

And that's sad.

Like, as an adoptee, it's almost like you feel like you're rejected for the second time.

Totally.

Wow.

I'm so sorry that she did that to you.

Yeah.

And I literally could drive to her house by lunchtime today.

I know exactly where she lives.

I mean, people need to understand adoptees can find their birth parents nowadays in many cases.

So it's not like it was in 1967 when there was no internet and there was no, like, it's easy to do, honestly, for many many people um and we want to adoptees want to know our our birth families of course

so so so your your birth mom you only reached out once and she was like that's it like don't contact me ever again not even through like messaging or anything

So it was letter writing back then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So I wrote her.

Well, this is a funny story.

But before I get to that, let me just share a little bit about my adoptive family.

Yes, please.

Honestly, it was really stressful.

My parents had a biological son that was older than me who was really aggressive and angry and hateful towards me.

And my father, my birth family is of Jewish heritage, and my father made a lot of anti-Semitic comments to me.

I grew up with sort of like this.

We like you, but we don't like you.

There was like a lot of hate and a lot of inappropriate, just a lot of male dislike.

I'm not sure my father was totally into adopting a child, although my mom really wanted to adopt a child.

And so there was a lot of male aggression and inappropriate,

just an undertone of, I'm going to say like inappropriate physicality.

My brother like straight up hated me.

He estranged himself from me.

a long time ago.

And what do you think that comes from?

Do you think that comes from because you weren't biologically there so he felt the need to?

Or what do you kind of take it as?

So in my own process of understanding it, I grew up, there used to be this book called The Chosen Baby.

Have you guys heard about that?

I have not.

No.

Okay.

So it was a book that was written back in my era of adoption placement.

And so it was a book written like, you know, Jane and Bobby were adopted and they were chosen.

And so it was, you know, made to feel good, right?

The problem with a story like that is that if I'm the chosen baby, who is he?

And so it creates this schism.

And

I think so there was this weird emphasis on how special and chosen I was and

that is different from what he experienced.

That's just different.

That's a weird story.

Right, right.

And I think from the beginning, it just created this is she better than me?

Is she more special than me?

I mean, it was very early on when I was very young, like maybe one, he pulled me so hard he dislocated my shoulder.

Wow.

And how much older was he than you?

Three years.

Wow.

Wow.

And that just like that.

Things like that went on and on and on and on and on.

He was really aggressive towards me.

And did your adoptive parents see this stuff happening?

And did they step in at all?

Or?

Not really.

In fact, my dad sort of supported it in a weird way.

Wow.

And again, I think, like, one of the dirty little secrets of adoption is that there is a lot of abuse and sexual abuse and

negativity that goes on in terms of how do we integrate this other person's child into our home and how comfortable am I with this?

And what is my attachment history showing up as with this child?

and how do siblings get integrated into this?

I mean, my brother was their biological child, and in comes a stranger.

I looked wildly different from them.

I acted wildly different.

I had a different disposition.

I was just really different, obviously.

And how do we manage the psychological and mental health?

of the whole family system when it comes to adoption just wasn't addressed

as well as it is today.

And I don't even think it's done that well today.

But then it wasn't done at all.

It was actually ignored.

I think the misconception, too, that a lot of people have is that,

well, you know, adoption creates, you know, this better life.

And we now know that it's just a different life.

It's not always better.

And I think, you know,

the stories that me and Kate have heard, I'm pretty sure you have heard as well, is just it's, it's actually, unfortunately, very common for adoptees to be raised in an environment that they feel,

you know, either walking on eggshells,

less than

that contributes to a lot of their

mental health issues as they grow up.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And you also are subjected to this situation where you have to deny, dismiss, ignore what you're actually feeling, the ambivalence, the uncertainty, the confusion, the

misattunement.

We're actually asked to ignore that because we're getting these messages projected to us like,

we always wanted a baby and you were the answer to our dreams.

And I had people say to me, you look just like your mother.

It's weird.

And I don't.

You're like, I do not.

Like, not even close.

And so I kind of had to roll with that because

it's a matter of survival.

These people are housing, feeding, and clothing me.

I can't just be like, nah-uh.

And the fact that adults are doing this to children.

It's so sad.

You're so lucky and you're so fortunate.

And all these projections of the adult version of adoption and like the industry narrative is projected on.

And so the child literally, I actually had select mutism as a child.

I became so

quiet, which is like on the anxiety spectrum.

Well, because you're just trying to survive, literally.

And especially when you're not really, the space that you're living in isn't really granting you the freedom that you feel to even express how you really feel inside.

I mean, that's gotta be, that's gotta be horrible to just sit there with that kind of, you know.

To you, my darling.

No, to you.

The roses were living the dream.

More champagne for me, people.

Until it all came crashing down.

He got fired by it.

From the director of Meet the Parents.

You're a failure.

Women don't like that.

If you need a shoulder or an inner thigh to lean on.

On August 29th.

I just want a house.

We want everything.

Wow.

Stop.

Let's go.

And see the roses.

These people.

The roses.

Rated R.

Under 17, not a minute without parent.

In theaters everywhere, August 29th.

I think one thing that people don't understand is that

even when adoptees have great adoptive parents and it's this amazing experience and they're even when adoptees

say that their parents told them, oh, if you, you know, we can talk about them.

I'll help you find your birth family if you want to and all this other stuff.

But the adoptee still feels this like, no, I don't want to ruffle any feathers.

I don't want to make my adoptive parents upset.

So there's something underlying where it's like, even when even when adoptive parents are great and perfect and they do all the right things, adoptees still feel this sense of like almost betrayal if they even announce that they are having different thoughts or want to find their biofamily.

And I think that comes, and I, and I believe that comes from society.

Like you said, all the adults around you saying you should be grateful.

You were saved.

You were always wanting, like, you know, it's always being thrown at them.

And so being an adoptee and growing up, obviously, in abuse, can you remember like being young and

wanting to go be with your birth mom or yearning to want to go and do be with her?

So what happens a lot of times for adoptees is we create a fantasy world.

So not knowing information, and this is one of the reasons I advocate for transparency, is because minus the truth, you make things up.

That's what children do.

That's why they can pretend they made pancakes out of, you know, coasters, right?

We make things up, we create, we imaginate what it could be.

And so I had this whole imaginary world of who my birth mother was, what she was like.

I created a sister, and it was all this world I lived in.

But then as I emerged out of childhood and then into adolescence,

we don't live quite that same way in our brain.

Our brain becomes more concrete.

So, like, I wanted to find her.

I wanted to read what was available to

understand adoption, which wasn't much at the time.

There was no internet.

There was no resources like that.

But it was like a constant desire to know who did I look like.

I used to scan rooms that I went into looking for people that looked like me.

Even to the point, if somebody said to me, oh my God, you look just like my friend Susan.

I'd be like, who's Susan?

Where is she?

How can I get, you know, I was desperate to know people that mirrored me because that's totally missing.

And, you know, I would sit at my table with all my cousins and relatives, and I didn't look like anybody.

And that's weird.

That's a weird way to grow up.

Well, I feel like people don't really understand, because like I've, I can't tell you how many people I've talked about genetic mirroring with, and they're pretty much look at me like, either I'm crazy or it's not that big of a deal.

and I'm like no I'm telling you like it's a huge deal like I and I think you know us kept we call I mean us kept people we can't even begin to understand what that's like because we're surrounded by genetic mirroring our whole life so

will you will you explain to people who don't understand what genetic mirroring is and what it does to the to the brain as you develop

so

Genetic mirroring is when we look like our family.

Obviously, I'm going to talk sort of in layman's terms.

We look like the people we're surrounded with.

And what that does for development, a child's development, is it allows us to understand us.

It helps to begin the foundation of who am I?

Who is my tribe?

Where do I come from?

This makes sense, right?

I act like you.

I seem like you.

I have that same voice.

I have that same eye color or hair texture or we walk the same.

It's a way of making sense.

So now I make sense in the world.

This makes sense because I make sense because you make sense because we make sense because this is the song we're all singing.

We sing the same song.

And in my family, what happens and what happens for adoptees is this, when that doesn't happen, this misattunement gets created.

And so the brain development starts to say, this doesn't make sense.

You don't smell like me.

You don't seem like me.

We don't seem the same way.

And so a child will say, there's something wrong with me.

And like subconsciously, they get that, like, you know, feeling like something is wrong with them.

Totally.

Wow.

Interesting.

What we've learned more recently is the research around the neurobiological aspect of that attachment disruption and what that begins doing to the wiring of the brain.

So when you have all that attunement in place, like you're being nurtured properly, you look like your family, everything's syncing up, right?

You begin the wiring of connection and safety.

But when that doesn't happen and there's misattunement, like none of this makes sense.

Where did that voice go that I knew?

Where did that movement go that I knew?

Where'd that energy go?

What you don't look like me.

I don't look like you.

When that starts to happen, and now we're doing this, the brain starts getting wired for mistrust.

Oh, wow.

So, right off rip, so even just very like, even that starts from obviously being separated from the birth mom, right?

It would start right off rip.

And then nothing makes sense.

Right.

I mean, my, my body type and my mom's body type are so wildly different.

A third grader, no, first grader, could say, that's not your mommy.

Okay, right, right.

Mm-hmm.

You know, in Sesame Street, which one doesn't belong?

I was the one that didn't belong.

And I knew it.

But you're forced to say, I belong.

And while my mom is, my adoptive mom is a gem.

I mean, she is an absolute, you should have her on.

She is a gem.

We would love to.

I would love to, yeah.

She would too.

But did she, but did she protect you from the abuse?

So, no.

Okay.

In her own way, she did in the best way she knew how,

but not in like we talk about it.

My mom's almost 90.

Yeah.

And we talk about it.

My dad has passed away.

My brother has estranged himself.

Thank God, honestly.

But

even she was afraid of him.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, they were violent.

And so she's cried about it.

She has said, like, I didn't do my best to protect you when I should have.

But it sounds like she might have been a victim herself.

Totally.

Yeah.

So, I mean.

100%.

And

it's good that, you know, as you've gotten older and stuff and, you know, she's gotten older that you guys can have those conversations and begin to forgive and talk about it.

Like, that's super important.

Yeah.

And I even have empathy for my birth mother.

Women in that era were told, leave the hospital, you know, don't ever talk about this.

Forget about it.

She's in a good home.

Go on with your life.

And they bury it really deeply.

Yeah, which that has got to be so.

I couldn't imagine, because you're right, they're fed all of those things and they feel like that's almost what they have to do.

But being a birth mom, I myself, I just feel like that has half, that has to have such a

sorrow and pain deep within her that she's carrying around and that she feels like she can't speak about.

Like, that has got to be one of the worst feelings ever.

And I also feel like that is, when you think about it, that's pretty similar to what the adoptees feel.

Hush,

self-betray your feelings, don't, don't say anything.

Everything's great.

They're in a good home.

I mean, when you think about it, like what you just said is very,

it sounds pretty similar to how adoptees do the same thing with their own emotions and that kind of stuff.

So, I mean, that's got to create its own.

I mean, honestly, your birth mom, being as old as she is, I mean, it's pretty embedded in her mindset that this is the best thing to do is just to be hushed.

That's probably why the rejection happened where she was like, you know, I can't open this wound right now or even go there,

which is unfortunate.

So I think it just goes to show the complexities and just the dynamic between birth parents and adoptees.

And especially if she went on and had to then create this lie, right?

Yeah.

So she's living this lie.

And then in 1996, I pop up out of the blue.

I'm like, hey, right.

Because I was told she loved me so much.

Of course, she's going to want to meet me.

That's what I was raised on.

Right.

And she's like, whoa, back off.

I didn't tell anybody about you.

Was that the one and only time that you've talked talked to her?

Wow.

What about, um, have you ever found like your birth father or if you have any bio sibs or anything?

So, no,

I have not found him, but I do have a sister.

My my birth mom went on to have a daughter.

And, like, I know where she lives.

Oh, wow.

I know.

Cause come on, everybody.

We have the World Wide Web, right?

I found her.

It's easy.

She seems lovely.

I'm like, you like me?

Right.

I like you.

Like,

we connect.

She looks like me.

Her daughters look like me.

It's weird.

Like, it's weird because I don't have that except with my own children.

And you've never tried to reach out to your sister either?

No, because honestly, there's still that fear in me that I'll be rejected again.

Yeah.

And that has to be painful.

Yeah, it's scary as hell.

It's like, I don't want that.

Yeah, I guess part of me, part of me is like, I don't, I guess if I'm just saying I'm not an adoptee, but if I was in your situation, I feel like I would be like, well, you know what, birth moms, screw you.

I don't want to be a secret, and I'm going to reach out to my sister and I'm going to tell her about it.

I do actually feel like you don't get to silence me like that.

I do feel that way.

And I know that someday I probably will.

It's still a super strong desire of mine.

I will.

I do things like that.

It's sort of a matter of time.

But I do want to say this.

I want to make sure I say say this.

There was a reason that I was willing to come on to your show.

And the reason is, is because just like you said, Tyler, I feel like

what birth parents and adoptees have in common is that silence and that shame and that sort of squelching of what we truly have experienced through this really odd and rare life experience.

It is rare to place your baby for adoption.

It is rare to grow up as an adoptee.

And the worst part is people want us to shut our mouths about it.

And I really admire the fact that you guys are willing to have these conversations with both sides, you know, my version as the adoptee and your version as birth parents.

It's really bold.

And most people don't walk into a cocktail party and say, hey, I place my baby for adoption.

Right, right.

And I think, you know, know, for Ty and I, we think it's very important.

And we think it's important.

It's important to share all sides and all different stories of adoptees.

You know, we interviewed a man yesterday who had a very positive adoption story.

And, you know, and like, and then we've also talked to some that had really, really rough.

experiences and we've talked to other birth parents and I feel like it's just super important to you know like with anything in life it everything has a good side, a dark side, a bad side.

So does adoption.

There's great things about it, but there's also some things that need to change and need to be different.

And I feel like that's what drives us to talk about it so much and to hear.

all different types of stories.

Yeah, because I feel like there's not going to be any change if we keep shoving it under the rug or keep, you know,

looking the other way.

It's, it's not going to help anything.

And I also feel like, you know, with the way adoption is works in this country, it's just not adoptee-centered.

And it's, and it's, and it's very much adoptive parent-centered.

And

I think that is the first change that we need to make, I think, culturally, socially, before it even gets to

reform as far as laws and stuff go.

So,

which blows my mind, like the adoptive parent shouldn't be centered at all.

It should be all about the adoptee.

Yeah, but it's just not.

I will shed this truth too, because I've worked with so many adoptive parents.

Let me tell you how many adoptive parents have sat in my office and have said to me, nobody prepared us for how unusual or weird or difficult or stressful or sad this would be.

Like, we don't know how to raise an adopted child.

We now see like this is different than raising your own child.

See, and that's a problem.

And that is a shame.

Yeah, and I feel like that is another mistake that the industry is making is that they're not, you're not giving enough informed consent for informed consent to happen.

You have to have the right information, and you're not giving any of these people in the party enough information to make an informed decision.

I feel like I also,

I think it's interesting because as we have kind of talked about this, I mean, obviously, as you know,

you get a lot of negative feedback if you're not telling the beautiful stories and how great it is.

But

yeah, yeah, so you get a lot of negative feedback, but it's like, you know, I think I also have have empathy for the adoptive parents because they get into this situation.

They're so desperate for a child and they want it so bad that they get into the situation and they're and they're also not informed.

They're also not educated.

They're also not required to go through, you know, specific years of trauma therapy or grief and loss therapy.

And I think that's a huge, huge problem because adoptive parents at the end of the day are experiencing their own trauma of not being able to have biological kids.

That should be addressed before they even walk into any agency or, you know, trying to adopt a child, in my opinion.

So, absolutely.

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A lot of what I do with adoptive parents is

a huge piece of a psychoeducation around what is neurobiological attachment trauma?

What is attachment theory?

What do we know now based on the research around this experience for a child's development?

What do we know that happens also to you neurobiologically when you're trying to relate to a child that might be rejecting you out of mistrust?

because that starts to sync up this pattern neurologically for the parent and child.

If the infant's being wired for mistrust, like none of this makes sense.

Right.

And I'm kind of going

to you as the parent, this parent's trying to connect, thinking this should just be a normal connection.

And when that doesn't happen, guess what?

The parent begins to do: reject, reject.

Yeah.

So now you have this dynamic where it's like reject, reject, try, try, weird, weird, tension, tension.

It's not helpful.

No.

Yeah.

And usually it's so subconscious because it's happening on this neurological level that they're like, what's going on?

Right.

And it's like, well, let me explain that to you.

Or then, you know, or then you have an adoptee who gets into like teenagehood and then they're rebelling and not listening and doing things, you know, that they're not supposed to be doing and all of the things.

So,

and, or now they're getting into

diagnostic, you know, the the diagnostic range where they're being, you know, told they're depressed or psychotic or they have an eating disorder or drug abuse, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And we still haven't addressed the attachment trauma, the loss.

Can you explain a little bit for people who don't know what like attachment trauma is or what the neuro you know, attachment biological, like what were you, what you were just speaking about before?

I feel like people don't really understand what that means.

Yeah.

So, you know, attachment theory, anybody that's watching this could easily research attachment theory and what that is and how we

create healthy attachment.

And that's when there's attunement and connection and understanding and mirroring.

And mirroring can even be, which is what leads to attunement, like, I get you, I see you, I'm relating to you.

It's this back and forth, it's this connection.

But neurobiological attachment trauma is when that's not happening.

And we call that misattunement.

So now, like in my case,

a lot of the things that I did and who I was didn't make sense to my parents.

So for example, I ate really differently than my parents.

But my brother ate very similarly to them.

So they wanted me to eat like they understood eating.

So they were con this sounds so nuanced and trivial, but if you're a child and you're experiencing sort of this forced eating

thing,

it starts to like mess with your

understanding of how am I even supposed to eat.

Interesting.

And so something little like that, like for example, my hair is blown out today, but I have really curly, sort of coarse, thick hair.

But my mom's hair was really thin, so she would always like fuss with my hair.

Like, I don't know what to do with your hair.

So these little misattunements create this disconnection, this tension, and it reinforces that, like, I don't get you.

And that I don't get you, that constant, I don't get you, you don't make sense to me, you don't seem like me, I don't creates mistrust.

Right.

And mistrust carries into all of these other relationships we have because that's the foundation in our brains, our development, around how do I trust you and how do I trust me?

And I trust me when this all makes sense.

So, what you're saying is it actually affects friendships, the adoptee, you know, making friendships, relationships, intimate relationships.

I mean, that has to

make it affect everything.

And I think it's interesting because a lot of adoptees that we've spoken with, the only time that they've ever had genetic mirroring was with their own children.

Yeah.

And I think that is

that has got to be one of the most like intense things ever to experience.

Emotional.

It makes sense emotional.

Yeah, because

I spoke with Allie and she told me that, you know, she considers her children second-generation adoptees because now she has to explain to them that grandma and grandpa is not.

And then, so, so, you know, I think people think that it just stops with the adoptee, but it doesn't because then the adoptee also has children and they have to explain that whole story all over again.

And it just creates this whole ripple effect, really.

Absolutely.

It is generational trauma in a way, or it's generational disconnection.

My parents were really, well, my mom still is, but my parents were really wonderful to my children.

And they were very grandparenty to my children.

But, you know, they weren't their genetic grandparents.

They didn't look like them.

There was still that difference, right?

And so you do, if you met my children who are young adults, within the first 10 minutes, they would tell you, my mom's adopted.

Oh, really?

Okay.

It's that big of a player in how they understand me.

And when did you tell them, like, that you were adopted and that, you know, their grandparents weren't biologically related to them?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't remember a time I didn't talk about that.

I don't.

My parents did that for me, which I am really happy about.

I fully promote that in the adoption work that I do.

I think it's a.

Because children know, right?

Like, if my parents hadn't told me that, I still would have known.

Right.

Right.

Like, we don't look alike.

Right.

So I feel like name it to tame it, just speak the truth as much as you can.

And transparency is always better, or we make shit up.

That's what human beings do.

And so I was grateful for that.

And I shared that same thing with my children.

I sort of normalized this is my life experience.

Yeah.

And I feel like with our children, that's the same thing that we do.

Like, you know, ever since our kids have been born, we have always talked about Carly, you know, the daughter that we relinquished.

We have pictures of her in the house.

We've talked about how we're birth parents.

And like, same thing.

Like, when Nova was little, and I would take her to like an appointment and she would see a lady there.

All of a sudden, my child is telling this random stranger my whole relinquishment journey, you know, and it was just, I feel like, yeah, kind of the same thing.

Like, when they're just raised and it's being talked about, and you know, it's just, it becomes normal.

Totally.

And I think that's sort of a healthier, not like sort of, it is a healthier approach for everyone because when we harbor secrets,

we don't talk about it, it creates anxiety and misunderstanding.

And if anything, you know, we need to educate people on this real experience because it's rare.

Adoption is rare.

It is, yeah.

This is a rare life experience.

And honestly, I think it should be listed as an adverse childhood experience.

I do not believe it is technically, but I refer to it that way.

That's an Amy

trademark

thing that I say.

This is adverse because it's so rare, and most people can't relate to this.

Just as it is rare for you guys, like most of your friends probably haven't relinquished a child for adoption.

Right.

Well, that's why I think it's actually people will get really shocked when I say that.

You know, adoptees are a minority.

It's 2% of the whole population.

You can't deny that that's what it is.

And people, I've had adoptees actually get angry with me for saying that.

And I'm like, I'm not meaning to upset you at all.

I, this is just the truth of, of,

of, of what, you know, community that you're in.

Even if you don't want to be in the community, you're in it.

And I think that alone is a reason that we need to focus more on educating.

Because if we have 90, you know, 7% of people telling you this is what adoption looks like.

And then there's a 2% of people who actually have lived, experienced it and telling you opposite, we should probably start listening to the seriousness.

And that's the danger danger of, I think, and just kind of the lack of responsibility in society's narrative that they're pushing on kids and on even on birth parents.

I mean, me and Kate, after placing, we, you know, it's this, it's this internal shame that you have that is, you're not allowed to like talk about the shame.

You need to, you need to wrap it in a pretty bow.

You need to, you know, explain it in a certain way.

Talk about all the good things.

Yes.

And not how you're feeling.

Right.

And I feel like with that, with that that internal shame just creates a whole mess of of mental health stuff that just is unnecessary if society would let us just speak yep yeah yeah one of the things and i don't know if you guys experienced any degree of this and you don't have to tell me but um i just want to name it for the the viewers is that um while we talk about the increased prevalence of suicidal ideation for adoptees,

I wonder what it is for birth parents.

Well, it's kind of funny.

It's funny that you say that because

after relinquishing

and then having my first child, parenting my first child,

I highly struggled out of nowhere, out of the blue, struggled with postpartum depression, suicidal ideation, panic disorder.

I mean, to the point of I

put myself in institutions three times to get help.

And it took my third time putting myself into an institution, it took my therapist to look at me and say, your adoption and your,

you placing a child for adoption was trauma.

And that was the first time that it ever hit me of being like, wow, I never looked at it as trauma because I was constantly brainwashing myself with,

yes, it's hard, but she has a great life.

And my therapist there said, stop with the butt.

She's just sitting with it.

She goes, just sit with with it.

It's hard and sometimes it sucks.

And now that I look back on it and like we've seen statistics and stuff, it's like, wow, no wonder why all my mental health stuff just went down the drain after having my own child, like parenting my next child.

It was a trigger.

Yeah.

And we, and I think the irresponsibility comes with people pushing this narrative is that you're denying specifically more birth moms their experience.

And so look what happens when you do that because then when this birth mother eventually has another child that she's ready to raise, all this stuff happens, and it's unexplainable.

And we just think we're going crazy.

Yeah, like I'm like,

and I remember when Kate called me from treatment center and saying, Hey, you know, did you know that our adoption was traumatic for us as people, as birth parents?

And I remember being like, oh, wow.

I mean, I guess it is.

Yeah.

And it was the first time that I think me and Kate both felt like we can actually say this has affected us mentally.

Like,

and it was really difficult.

So, I feel like, you know,

the more that the narrative gets overshadowed by the people who haven't lived it or are refusing to look at the data, is that that's what it does.

It actually affects a lot more than people believe.

So, but I think it's interesting that you brought up the attempted suicide because I don't know, are you familiar with Lynn Zubov?

Now, she, okay, so she's a professor who, um, who I would love to get on the podcast eventually.

But anyway, she is a birth mother who decided to do her own research study for adoptees and birth parents.

And she made her own, she worked with a couple colleagues and made her own kind of like questionnaire that they would fill out.

And she was overwhelmed with the responses from it.

She expected to only get maybe 500 entries, but ended up getting over 2,300 entries in the first like couple days,

which she was like, you know, this obviously is an indicator that this is needed.

And so, based off of her research, the attempted suicide rate for an adoptee was 21.5%,

and the attempted suicide rate for a birth mother was 23.8%

compared to 0.06% of the general population.

Absolutely.

So, I don't know if you can see that.

They're like all neck and neck.

I'll actually, I'll send this to you so you can have the data.

Yeah,

I'll actually send you, I'll send you her.

She did an interview on YouTube, and she breaks down all the stuff that

she found.

And yeah, so the data shows that there's a huge connection between adoptees having attempted suicide and birth parents.

So

it goes to show, even with data, that

there's a connection there because compared to the general population, it's almost nothing.

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And that was it.

That's what drew me to you guys to, you know, sit and have this conversation because when I, so I took the time to work at this facility for unwed mothers.

And,

you know, day after day after day, week in and week out, I would meet with birth parents.

Sometimes the fathers were involved.

Often they weren't, if I'm being honest.

But the stories were all pretty much the same.

And the heartache and the shame and the isolation and the lack of support.

You think about those factors.

All of us would feel depressed if those were our factors.

Forget about the adoption piece, but if you felt isolated, ashamed, all alone, and unsupported at any point in your life, how depressed you would be.

Oh, very.

Add the decision into that to relinquish your own child.

Of course, this is going to affect our mental health.

Yep.

And then also, I truly believe that

when you're carrying your child, and you guys know this, you had more children.

What we experience during that pregnancy is affecting the growth and the development of our children.

We know this now.

The research, we already know this.

And so, what was I experiencing as a developing infant with a mother that knew she couldn't keep me, that she was all alone, that she had no support, that she was anxious and scared.

All of that was getting integrated into my development.

Which is so sad because, yeah, I think about that sometimes too, with

the daughter that we relinquished.

Like, it was such a

horrible time of my life absolutely horrible and devastating and yeah like what you know what did that do to her i guess you know i'll never fully know but it's but i also but i also feel like that came to realization i mean i feel like me and me and kate may and i don't know if any other birth parent feels this way but we kind of felt like we had to go through and come out of our own fog

um to you know i think we actually spent a couple years after placing doing speaking engagements, promoting adoption

for the agency that we place with.

And I feel like, and I also realize that's pretty common that a lot of birth parents after placing will get into advocacy work promoting adoption.

And I almost feel like it's a way of for us to try to like understand our pain, make it have purpose, heal ourselves in a way.

And it's really interesting how common it is to do that.

I always joke around.

I say, honestly, I feel like we were just brainwashing ourselves to to not feel the feelings.

Yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

You had to almost fully buy in to accept what happened.

Yeah, you don't want to sit with the ick, you know?

Yeah, and actually, when we found out about maternal separation trauma, it was hard.

It was very difficult for me and her to just kind of like understand that we did that.

to our baby.

Like that was, it's very difficult to sit with.

And I also feel like it's difficult for adoptees to hear that information as well because a lot of them don't know know about the maternal separation trauma and what it does to the brain.

And so, when you tell them that, they're like, all of a sudden, a light bulb clicks.

Like, oh,

I was hyperactive as a kid.

Oh, my gosh, I did have issues with trusting relationships and abandonment issues and all these things.

And it's like, well, yeah, because pre-verbal trauma is a real thing.

And I think people should really, like, I think that should also be.

part of the information that birth parents and adoptive parents have before even entering into any adoption is that this this child is going to be inevitably traumatized.

And so, how are you going to parent that child?

Well, and also, it's an understanding of what is trauma.

We overuse the word.

You know, it's become very like, oh my God, it was such a traumatic day.

What happened?

My nail appointment got canceled.

That's not trauma.

Right, right.

Trauma

is what happens in our bodies and brains when things are unprocessed, unmanageable, uncontrollable, misunderstood.

We don't have support.

We don't have the ability to process through what happened in a safe way.

So it gets integrated.

It gets into our neurological system and our body.

That's like that book, The Body Keeps the Score, right?

That's so popular.

Because that trauma is sort of like immersed into our brain and bodies.

And so, of course, it shows up in all these different ways.

So for me, my experience with attachment trauma and all the loss and the grief still shows up, right?

Like it still shows up in my relationships.

It still shows up in how I trust or I understand things or

feelings I might have.

It still shows up.

You know, I'm 57 years old.

It still shows up and I'm really skilled and I'm really

understanding of it.

But what's different for me and why I promote like therapy, coaching,

conversation, psychoeducation is because now when it shows up, I know who it is.

I've sort of created enough distance to say, that's my attachment wound.

That's my,

of course, I'm going to respond like that to my husband because you know what?

I don't always trust you.

And you know why?

Because I shouldn't.

And you want to know why?

Because my brain was wired not to fully trust.

So I work with it instead of trying to dismiss it or work against it or pathologize it or diagnose this.

This really happened to me.

Right.

And And so I do have some strange reactions to people, places, and things.

Which honestly makes sense.

And I feel like a lot of people, if they like, I think there's a lot of, there's healing with understanding.

And so when you don't understand why you act the way you do or why you react the way you do, like that's the stuff that I want.

And the reason why we're even doing this podcast and just having people on talking about it is because if people can hear that part and say, whoa, if I can understand myself more and why I do the things I do, do, it's a lot, you're gonna, the odds are you're not gonna feel as much shame because there's a reason for it.

Like you'll be able to attach it.

Oh, this is what it is.

And then also it helps everyone else in your life to connect with you because now they know that your reaction is based off of this.

And so I feel like...

A lot of adoptees that we talk to that get really offended by the fact that they, you know, may have had, you know, these issues or whatever.

It's like, I think it's because you don't understand it.

And I get it because I feel like as an adoptee, maybe it would be safer kind of staying over here and not knowing like ignorance is bliss kind of thing.

But I feel like.

But it's still showing up.

It is.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's still going to show up.

And then you might feel crazy or then you might act even

more

sort of exaggerated.

Instead, I can catch it now and say, oh, yeah, here I go again.

I'm doing my thing.

But you know what?

My thing makes sense because that's my reality.

When I wasn't this aware and when I didn't have enough understanding and support and distance from it, I entered into a marriage with a drug-addicted, violent, aggressive, deceitful man who completely,

you know, sort of created havoc and chaos in my life.

Well, of course I did that.

That's what I grew up with.

You know, my brother was.

absolutely that to a T.

And so I just recreated the trauma.

I didn't have the awareness to say, this isn't okay.

It seemed familiar and okay.

That's how I understood trust and connection.

And so thank goodness that ended.

And I was able to find therapists in my own life and understanding.

And I also, in my clinical experience and training, I had the most phenomenal mentors and clinical training to understand this at like a much, much deeper level.

And so that's been healing for me too,

to really understand the depth of what happens to a human being who experiences this rare life experience.

Well, I feel like that's kind of why you are doing the work you're doing, which is so.

That's kind of what I was interested in.

Like, I wanted to know, like, was there one thing in your life that inspired you to go about the career that you're in?

Yeah.

So, a lot of times adopted children are pathologized.

So,

what

we like to do as

I shouldn't say we, I should say what tends to happen in adoptive families is they all go, what's wrong with this child?

Like, oh, it's an adopted child.

Her parents must have been mentally ill.

Oh, her parents must have been drug addicts.

Oh, they were bad people.

There's something wrong with this person.

They tend not to look at what happened to this child.

And so adopted children often get diagnosed with like this range of diagnoses and they end up in treatment facilities and they end up with poor academic performance or lack of friendships and connection, which is built on trust, right?

Or they end up incarcerated, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

All these things that look pathological.

But what we do now, or at least what I do in my practice, is I talk about, forget all that.

Forget all those diagnoses.

Let's just talk about what happened.

Because when I was little and young and a teenager and going through my own depression and anxiety and difficulties with my own mental health and shutting down and isolating myself, my parents took me to a therapist and they were like, what's wrong with her?

And the therapists were like, yeah, what's wrong with you?

See,

that doesn't help.

But yeah, and I feel like that's not...

And if your adoptive parents were aware to get an adoption competent therapist, that probably wouldn't have happened to you.

Do you know what I mean?

there probably was none back then.

That being said, it was 1980.

Oh, true, true, true.

And we didn't have as much resources.

We really didn't.

And we also didn't have as much research and knowledge.

So I am going to give a little bit of

leeway to that, right?

Like, we just didn't have the same resources.

Right.

But what I experienced therapeutically was there is something wrong with me.

I should be grateful.

And I'm sitting in a room with this, because it was family therapy, with this really aggressive brother and father.

And I was afraid of them.

Right.

Of course, you were afraid.

Oh, so they actually sat in the session with you.

Yeah, it was family therapy.

Oh,

wow.

Okay.

That's not a very, that's not.

Even an individual therapy, the message was still like, adoption, shimmoption.

We're not going to talk about that.

We're going to talk about like, what's wrong, Amy?

Like, what's wrong with you?

It was very much pathologized.

And I can remember vividly sitting in that.

I can remember, like, I can remember the room I was sitting in where I thought to myself, what's wrong with me?

Are you kidding me?

First of all, do you know what this is like?

Do you know what I'm living with?

This brother of mine, do you know what I'm living with?

I'm living with a monster.

I'm afraid of him.

This guy could hurt me.

He has hurt me.

You think I'm going to speak up about this?

I'm afraid.

Number one.

And number two, you know what?

When I'm old enough, I will never do this to an adoptee.

I'll never do it to a child that's hurting.

Adoption or no adoption.

I will never pathologize a child before I ask what happened to you.

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You know how like you go to therapy and you fill out like, oh, have you ever any medical history?

All this other stuff.

And I feel like that should be number one, one of the checkboxes.

Are you adopted?

Like,

I think that's the first.

So that way therapists can almost say, oh, I'm not experienced with.

And they can send them to you or someone more aware

because I feel bad that I think, unfortunately, what your experience with therapy, being an adoptee, I think it's still happening.

I think

a lot of therapists are still saying, oh, you know, adoption has nothing to do with what your issues are.

Let's talk about what's wrong with you instead.

And it's like,

no, we need to start shifting that

and really, like I said, having that checkbox before you get in the therapy room to see if this therapist can even, you know, handle this kind of stuff because it's a totally different experience.

And if they understand it truly, if they've truly been trained, again, unfortunately, there are programs out there that certify you as adoption competent.

And

I don't know that adoption competent equals

adoptee-focused.

I like that word, adoptee-focused.

Yeah.

It should all be adoptee-focused, in my opinion.

What's that?

I said, it should all be adoptee-focused.

Yeah.

Everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Competency is like different to me.

It's sort of like, can you swim two laps?

That doesn't make you an ocean swimmer.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's not deep enough.

It's not deep enough.

It's not, it doesn't capture at all.

It's sort of like a little just stamp of approval.

Which is weird because, like I said, that is just a representation of how unserious people are taking this.

They really, really, even in the professional realm, they're like, ah, it's not that big of a deal.

It's like, it's a huge deal.

And I feel like the more we talk about it, the more research comes out the more um the more that we shine a light on it maybe hopefully that will will change i also wanted to ask you though when growing up can you identify like if there's any adoptees that are listening who are you know don't really know anything about what their experience is or question themselves what was some things that you grew up with and kind of was like looking back now go okay that was definitely from my adoption or any kind of specific like anxiety disorders or anything that you noticed oh my gosh.

So in early childhood, I suffered from what we call select mutism.

That is a diagnostic term, but basically what it means is I was extremely quiet.

In fact, like teachers would say, which is weird because I talk all the time now, but at the time, I was so quiet to the point teachers would say, you know, like Amy never speaks in class.

She never raises her hand.

She never answers the questions.

And they knew it wasn't because I wasn't, you know, able to do the work.

It was something else.

And so I was really anxious and shy and afraid.

And I didn't trust.

people.

My mom was my person, my adoptive mom.

So around her, I would talk and talk and talk and talk and talk.

But when I got into other settings where I had to trust and feel confident and feel, you know, able,

I would really shut down and go into this extreme form of just silence.

And so I frequently now meet adoptees as clients, and that's one of the referring issues is the parents will say she never talks.

And part of why we're not talking is because it's hard to articulate this.

It's a pre-verbal trauma.

It's hard to say like, none of this makes sense to me.

Wow.

So that was early childhood.

When I moved into adolescence, you know, we change as we develop.

And adoption is is a developmental trauma because I can't become unadopted right so this experience follows me through my lifespan when I'm 89 I'm still going to be an adoptee it's still going to show up in my world

so you call that you call that developmental like it's developing trauma so it continuously kind of evolves is what you're saying well yes no okay so developmental means like as we grow and change, right?

So we're always growing and changing.

Our brain is always growing and changing.

So what we do in childhood is different from who we are in adolescence, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

But through that lifespan, call it lifespan, development slash lifespan, adoption is a theme that follows me all the way through.

So if this fundamental issue, if the fundamental issue of adoption, loss, trauma, relinquishment, attachment, disruption is part of my theme, that's going to go with me through my whole development, through my whole lifespan.

So, how I relate to adoption and my experience with that loss, trauma, grief, confusion, et cetera, trust, mistrust, blah, blah, blah.

As a child, I'm going to relate to it differently as an adolescent, as a young adult, as an adult, as my age now, as an elderly person.

But I will never not be an adoptee.

Right.

It's just evolving, basically.

It's just evolving.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So, in adolescence, I had a lot of anxiety, depression, eating difficulties,

low self-esteem.

I underachieved.

I was very shy.

I lacked confidence.

Then as I emerged into adulthood, it kind of showed up with, you know, dating like all the wrong people.

I eventually married someone who replicated my...

outrageous, violent brother.

That obviously led to a lot of chaos, although I have two amazing children.

then so then I had to go through that crisis of like divorce and loss and all of that.

And that really kind of catapulted me into like, what the fuck is going on with me?

And that sort of took things to a whole new level.

And I honestly think because then I had my children, and it was so important to me to get it right for them.

to really, I mean, they're everything to me, right?

So

I really deep dived into my own psyche, like, and also it corresponded with some of my clinical training and some therapies that I was involved in.

So it sort of all merged for me to go, aha, this is what's been going on.

You know, we understand the story backwards.

And it all came together.

And it started to make sense.

And I was super fortunate to have these amazing clinical mentors.

And I got to train under some of the most amazing people in the field of research around attachment trauma.

And things just started to make sense and create momentum for me

and still do.

Like, again, it's evolving, right?

But I have a really clear understanding of not only myself and my experience and my own response to this life experience, but also how to support others in their journey.

And then, obviously, advocacy work is at a much higher level.

And

so, do you think, so do you think, like, so, say, if someone's out there,

what would be your suggestion to an adoptee who's maybe, you know, just come out of the fog or maybe might still be in it, or just has, you know, curious questions.

Like, what would be your advice to them?

Or if they're experiencing some kind of, you know, mental health issue that they're not even really thinking about

being adoption-related.

Like, what would you, what would be your suggestion?

Yeah.

So, my first

suggestion, and what I love, is how resourced we are now with social media and the research that's out there.

It's out there.

And people like you and people like me that are putting content out there and speaking up, and I could name, you know, a billion other people that I really admire, the work that they're doing, where they're putting it out there.

People have access to that that now.

So if you are thinking about this or curious about this, and you're an adoptee or an adoptive parent, you know, resource yourself.

Look into the resources that are out there.

Get yourself educated.

Get yourself in the know of what's really going on and make connections with other people who are experiencing what you are experiencing.

Try to find people message me all the time and ask me questions, ask me for resources, and I try to do the best I can to answer them and point them in the direct, you know, in the right direction if I can't help them one-on-one, right?

But I will resource people.

I will say, you know, look this up, you know, find out about this.

Here's an idea, and so forth.

So that's a great

asset that you know, people my age didn't have when I was 15 years old.

I didn't have that.

But I literally see teenagers on their phones now and all around the world.

And that's amazing that we have made our network and our voice that loud.

So I would say access those resources, get yourself educated and resource, ask the questions, read the books, stay on it, stay connected to other adoptees and people that are doing this work.

Know that you're not alone.

You're not alone.

You're just not alone now.

We have the ability to connect like we never have had.

And I think that's huge.

And I think that's huge.

Like what you said, like, you know, you're not alone.

There are people out there that have similar stories.

It won't be the exact same, but they can relate to whatever you're going through.

Yeah, I also think it's really healthy for adoptees to connect with other adoptees and just be in that community.

Yeah.

I was going to ask another question too before we go.

What do you, as an adoptee yourself, what do you,

what would you say to an adoptee who had a great, loving experience?

What is the best way for that adoptee to support another adoptee who may have not had a great experience?

Because what I'm noticing in the community is a lot of discourse between

adoptee versus adoptee, which I thought was really strange.

I'm like, this is something I wasn't really expecting to see.

And a lot of it has to do with, you know, this person saying, I had a bad experience.

This is what my beliefs are.

And the other person's saying, well, that's not how I had, you know, mine was a great experience.

You know what I mean?

So, like, what would be your suggestion to an adoptee who may have had a positive experience and hearing and supporting another adoptee who's had a negative experience.

Well, gosh, I'm not even a doctor, but I feel like you should just be kind.

And if somebody's, you know, that you like.

You think that'd be common sense, but they, but I know that the adoptees who've had positive experiences are very, very

defensive.

They're quick to

hate on people.

They're quick to dismiss the other adoptee who's not had a great experience.

Yeah.

Well, I would say this.

It is very hard in general, I think, for human beings to sit with perspectives that are not their own, whether it's politically or

racially or any other social issue, right?

Like we struggle as humans to tolerate a different perspective.

And that is no different amongst adoptees and adoptive parents and birth parents.

Like that.

same dynamic can play out unless we raise our consciousness that we can all have a different experience with this and still be in the same camp and still support each other to allow for those differences to be assets, not dividers.

And I have clients I work with all the time that are so, so, so, so happy with the fact that they were adopted.

They're very, very happy with that.

And still, it shows up in their relationships and their ability to trust and their ability to function or they've suffered with depression.

And yet they are

so grateful for this, you know, possibility that they lived in a different country or in a different family and so forth, right?

Those two things can exist together.

You can have a wonderful experience and still have some of the impact that adoption and relinquishment and attachment trauma can play out in a human being's development.

Those things aren't mutual.

My mom is the sweetest gem on the planet, and yet I still struggled with a lot of mental health issues and depression and sadness and yearning to know my birth family.

So we have to stop believing that there's good adoption and bad adoption, and the two can never sit in the same room.

The truth is, we know there's impact from this life experience, and to tolerate people's different views, experiences, understandings, and process around it, I think is really significant growth that we need to make in this industry.

And I think we also need to understand there is a marketing component to what we believe about adoption that

most people would think tide is the best detergent

there is because they're great at marketing.

Right, right.

But that doesn't mean it's true.

I mean, maybe it is.

I don't know.

But I'm just saying marketing is powerful and adoption has been marketed, but there's so much under it.

The other thing I want to say is that if you're an adoptive parent or an adoptive sibling and you are also struggling with this experience of trying to raise an adopted child or trying to understand your adopted sibling or there's conflict there or estrangement, like you're also not alone.

I sit in the room with so many adoptive parents and adoptive siblings and partners.

Like my husband could probably get on here and be like, yeah, I didn't know what the heck, you know, I'm not adopted.

I don't know what's going on.

She's

what's up with my wife, right?

You're not alone.

This is a very normal experience because it's so misunderstood and it is confusing.

And that also needs to be said and understood.

And people need to be educated about that as well.

Yeah, so like two things can be true at the same time.

That's exactly what I was saying.

You know, yeah, two things can be true at the same time.

You could have a great adoption experience.

You can also hold space for someone else who did not, may have not had a good experience at all.

And vice versa.

Yeah, and vice versa.

I think it's important for the community to not use their personal experience as a divider between each other.

Because, like like I said, you are only 2% of the population, you guys.

So, we all have to, you know, we all got to kind of come together if anything's going to, you know, any change is going to happen with this whole thing.

And I'm sorry, and I'm such an empath.

I'm like, can't we all just be kind and like listen and be open-minded?

Like, you know, just love each other?

Come on, everybody.

Yeah, you know?

Yeah, I know.

Well, I try to think about it like this.

Like, adoption isn't a big box store.

We're a boutique, right?

We're a small group.

We're a small store.

We're a locally owned small store.

Right.

And we all have to support each other in this effort of understanding and compassion and education and advocacy and developing our voice because

that's what we need for our own wellness and strength.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

So for people that want to find you or look at your content and stuff, where can people go to look you up?

Yeah, psychotherapist Amy on Instagram.

That's my easiest way.

If I only had more,

I probably need a website or something.

I don't know.

I'm not that great at all that stuff.

So maybe someday I'll do more with my own marketing.

That's out there as a to-do list item.

But yeah, psychotherapist Amy.

And I respond to everyone.

If you ask me a question or you reach out i i respond um and uh yeah and so guys that is for instagram um oh yes sorry yes no you said that i just wanted i wanted to clarify okay and then um you know i just wanted to say thank you um thank you for taking time to hop on here with us and talk all things and and also for being vulnerable and sharing your story and it's very special to have you here with us yeah and i want to say thank you to you guys I love what you're doing, and I love that you're bringing your side of the triad to the people.

And you're also talking in a way that helps to

sort of normalize and allow for acceptance and growth for birth parents.

I think it's really fabulous and needed.

Thank you so much, Amy.

We appreciate you.

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