Unconditional Love, Empathy & Human Connection with David Shane

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Speaker 7 All right, everybody, thank you so much for coming back to another episode of Kate and Ty Break It Down. Today, we have David Shane, which I'm so pumped about.
We connected social media.

Speaker 7 I saw the first video I saw of yours was adoption story number one. Because at first, I saw it's funny because I actually did see some of your content before that, but I didn't know who you were.

Speaker 7 And then I saw it, and I'm like, man, that sounds familiar, the voice. And then I was like, holy shit.

Speaker 8 Crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, it's you. It's you.

Speaker 5 And then when you reached out, my mind was blown. I think I told you this initially that I was a quiet, I guess, like super fan of Team Mom.
Yeah. On MTV.
And I had followed you guys.

Speaker 5 I think it was pretty like religiously. Like I said, it was under the table.
I couldn't tell any of my friends. Right, right.

Speaker 2 Because of judgment.

Speaker 10 Right.

Speaker 5 But it was kind of like a full circle moment where it brought me back to those times. I'm like, this is crazy in the present moment.
I'm talking to Tyler.

Speaker 8 So how old were you?

Speaker 2 I'm 42 now.

Speaker 7 Okay, okay. So we're about 10 years at difference.
I'm 33.

Speaker 5 Okay. How old, how long ago was Teen Mom?

Speaker 6 16 years. 16 years ago.

Speaker 5 16 years ago.

Speaker 6 So 2009.

Speaker 5 So I was 20. Did that make me 25?

Speaker 7 So you're your mid-20s? Okay, yeah.

Speaker 5 Oh, God. So I was obsessed with 25.

Speaker 10 Oh, God.

Speaker 7 No, but listen, no, but honestly, I've heard a lot of, I mean, I think it comes down to just like, you know, I mean, teen mom is a whole different thing on its own, but we were the only like adoption story on there so i've had a lot of people older than you younger than you say like hey i literally only watched it because i was an adoptee and i never got to see any kind of you know anything to do with birth parents and their perspective so like if you're not you're not the first maybe that's what why i gravitated and felt connected it's hard to recall now but it was probably because of that yeah yeah because

Speaker 7 a lot of people will say like you know um we hear stories and stuff but a lot of adoptees will be like you know i watched specifically i would just fast forward with everyone else because i I just wanted to see what, you know, the birth parent dream was like.

Speaker 7 So not the first person that I've actually heard that from.

Speaker 6 So for people that don't know who you are, like, who are you? What are you known for? And what kind of a little bit about your background?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so my name's Dave.

Speaker 5 I guess in terms of the internet,

Speaker 5 how I'm known, if you will, is about three years ago, I started creating content all about

Speaker 5 humanity, mindfulness, love, kindness, human connection. And so I took out my phone and started going around asking people to share three things they love about each other themselves.

Speaker 5 And in doing that, it's taken me on this journey, you know, capturing strangers in public all over.

Speaker 5 And then from there, it was probably like a year ago, I decided to share the story of my experience being adopted, close adoption at birth,

Speaker 5 but I think a very unique one, if you will, being that

Speaker 5 I was raised by basically Meet the Fuckers, a sex therapist and a guidance counselor.

Speaker 8 No way. Yes.

Speaker 9 Wow.

Speaker 5 And so that's unique in itself.

Speaker 5 But what they really prioritized, I think, from as early as even two, three years old was emotional intelligence and communication.

Speaker 5 And taking the time to explain things to me, I think, even if I didn't have the ability at that age to process and fully understand.

Speaker 5 But they did it in the best way they knew how. And so I never had unanswered questions as a child or that feeling of neglect or abandonment, at least that I can recall,

Speaker 5 because I had so much love.

Speaker 12 Wow.

Speaker 7 So you knew you were adopted from as early as you can remember.

Speaker 5 Correct. So, like, even I can, I have memories in middle school of classmates and friends who, I guess, came to know this.
I don't know how if it came up in discussion, parents, whatever.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they had lots of questions. Some, I'm sure, teased me, or, you know, you don't have real parents.
You know, the cruel things kids could say. But I was almost immune to it because

Speaker 5 I didn't differentiate between the two. I had so much love.
The fact that I didn't come out of her womb,

Speaker 5 still mom, you know, still love. Right.
So it was, yeah, fascinating.

Speaker 7 So it sounds, I mean, so coming from what you're saying, it sounds like you had a really good positive adoption experience growing up.

Speaker 5 Incredible. Wow.
I think it was as great as it could go, just being that I had an upbringing full of love, unconditional, very nurturing parents,

Speaker 5 always believed in me. I never felt like I didn't have anywhere to go or anyone to turn to.
And I definitely struggled.

Speaker 5 I think a lot of people that are adopted, and I can't really speak for everyone, only my own experience.

Speaker 5 But I think what's really trying on the human mind, and it can come and ebb and flow throughout life, different stages, I think things can trigger it, is just reflecting on that and thinking about the whys and the hows and the whats.

Speaker 5 And so throughout life, my parents reinforced to me, hey, if you ever want to connect with your biological parents and find out who they are, we won't be offended. We'll encourage you to do that.

Speaker 5 We'll support you and we'll help you find them.

Speaker 6 That's so healthy.

Speaker 5 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 But in my mind, understanding humanity even from an early age and being raised to be very empathetic, I know my parents are professionals in the mental health field, and I trust that what they're saying is true.

Speaker 5 But just like they probably had underlying concerns of if I were to connect with my biological parents, would that emotionally throw me? How would I respond and react in life?

Speaker 5 I worried about them too. Would they feel neglected? Would they feel like, does he maybe not love us? What's sparking him now to want to connect with them?

Speaker 5 So I think throughout time when I was younger, that was never a thought.

Speaker 5 The way I processed it was, I have so much love for my biological parents despite not knowing them because they gave me the greatest gift.

Speaker 5 They made the most selfless decision that I can't imagine. mother and father would be faced with making having to give up the most beautiful thing you've created

Speaker 8 but

Speaker 6 I see you getting emotional.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I get very, yeah, I'm an emotional, emotional person, but it's

Speaker 5 the reason I get emotional is just trying to put myself in a mother or father's shoes who has to make that decision.

Speaker 2 You guys have been there.

Speaker 5 It's

Speaker 5 people can't understand what that's like. I can't understand what that's like.

Speaker 5 But getting to connect with my biological parents, you know, in recent years,

Speaker 5 it was eye-opening to hear from them how every day and every night for a period of over 20, 30 years, always on the forefront of their mind when they woke up or went to bed or throughout the day how is he yeah is he okay always i think it never stops i think for birth parents like that's something that never goes away and for me like i tell ty i said

Speaker 6 like you know now that our adoption is closed like there's a part of me that um being a birth mom i feel like it's a pain and it's a deep-rooted pain that

Speaker 6 even if we reconnect in the years i think it's still just a pain that i will carry for the rest of my my life.

Speaker 6 And I tell Ty all the time, I'm like, and even if there is an afterlife, I think it's something I will carry with me there, too.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think it's something that people like assume, like, oh, well, you can like, I think as birth parents, we hear a lot, like, just move on, let it go, wait for them, stop, you know, just let it go.

Speaker 7 And it's like, like, how do you, it's something you literally can't just let go. It's, it's, it's something that I think every biological parent deals with.

Speaker 7 You wake up every day, like, your parent, like, that's exactly what happens. It feels, it's a, it's in the forefront of your mind constantly.

Speaker 7 And I think probably even more intense for your bio parents because it was closed and they had no, you know, the questions of, you know, how is he? What's he doing?

Speaker 7 Like we, we, we were blessed enough to have some of those answers as she grew up, you know, until obviously it closed. But like, I couldn't imagine.
that

Speaker 7 that feeling of like us asking those questions and not knowing, you know, like that's intense.

Speaker 5 The way I would compare that kind of concept, and this isn't to in any way minimize what that's like in your experience or any parent that's had to make that selfless decision, but the way I kind of see it, it's one of those things that unless you're dealing with it,

Speaker 5 you can't understand. And it's not something that you can just instantly work through like a light switch and say, okay.
I'm not going to worry about this.

Speaker 5 I'm going to disconnect emotionally and be fine. But the way I would kind of compare it is when we lose loved ones in life, right?

Speaker 5 A lot of us as human beings, that reshapes the rest of our existence from that point forward. We lose parts of ourselves.
Every day we can think about the

Speaker 5 times we had together, miss them, and

Speaker 5 we can grieve in perpetuity, but to the point where it's inhibiting our ability to function. I think

Speaker 5 for most of us, you have to find a way to give new meaning to it and let pieces of it go, but assume the best.

Speaker 5 That person who's not here with us anymore, we love them just like they loved us unconditionally.

Speaker 5 And all they would want is to see us smiling and happy and doing good for ourselves, just like we would want for them. Absolutely.
Not that that makes it any easier, right? Right.

Speaker 10 But it helps. It helps

Speaker 7 finding the purpose in the pain because the pain's not going anywhere. And especially for this kind of, you know, when you sever these biological DNA connections,

Speaker 7 it's something that just, you can't just let go.

Speaker 7 And you know what? Healing is, it looks different for everybody. And I think healing can look like finding purpose in the pain.

Speaker 7 And I think that, you know, I'm assuming before you reached out or connected with your biological parents, I'm pretty sure that they tried to find the purpose in the pain or trying to find it.

Speaker 7 But so how old were you, though, when you actually connected with them?

Speaker 5 So this is a crazy story. So like I said, throughout my life, I'd always known I was adopted,

Speaker 5 that I have biological parents that are out there. Or, you know, I never thought, oh, they're not alive.
I assume they're out there and doing well, just assuming the best.

Speaker 5 So fast forward to 2015, I'm living in West Palm Beach, Florida.

Speaker 5 And I'm living in a small little community. My parents have a townhouse on one side, and I'm renting an apartment on the other side.
And I go over their house one day to drop off groceries.

Speaker 5 I had never answered the landline phone at their house. So I walk in the door.
My dad's in one recliner. My mom's in the other.
She's reading like her Kindle.

Speaker 5 He's got the iPad, checking White Sox, you know, scores. And the phone rings as I'm carrying in the groceries.
On the TV, I guess they had their caller ID set up.

Speaker 5 So I see on the caller ID what looks like an out-of-state area code number. I said, who's calling you? You want me to answer? Because now I'm in the kitchen.
They said, oh, to telemarketer, let it be.

Speaker 5 We're fine. I said, no, you're not fine.
They're not going to harass my parents. Right, right.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 10 Come on here.

Speaker 9 I'm going to stay a telephone.

Speaker 5 So I answer the phone, and I said, hello. And there's a woman on the other end of the phone.
She goes, may I speak with David Shane, please? That's weird. So I said, speaking.

Speaker 5 She goes, were you born in Hoffman Estates, Illinois, in 1983?

Speaker 2 I said, who the fuck is this? Right.

Speaker 5 She goes,

Speaker 5 I'm your biological mother.

Speaker 8 Whoa.

Speaker 5 I said, what? And so my parents overhear this in the background, stop what they're doing. And I know they're on heightened alert now.
This is probably their worst fear as therapists.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 5 Not knowing, is this going to emotionally throw me? What's going to happen? So,

Speaker 5 you know, I respond with, listen, thank you for reaching out. It's not an opportune time to talk.
This is my parents' house. You're calling on their landline.
Right.

Speaker 5 Why don't you give me your contact info? I'm going to go home. I'll call you because there is some questions I want to ask you about medical history, mental health, various things that I need to know.

Speaker 5 And she says, certainly, I just want to let you know I'm not calling to intrude on your life. There's some information and things I need to share with you.

Speaker 9 I said, okay.

Speaker 5 So got off the phone. My parents' first response was, are you okay?

Speaker 5 So I reassured them, hey, I'm good. I am going to reach out and call.
I want to hear about the history,

Speaker 5 but I can assure you I'm okay. And if I'm not, I'll let you know.

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Speaker 7 Like, that's so

Speaker 5 rare. So what ended up happening was

Speaker 5 I called her when I got home, and she basically revealed to me that her and my biological father, the circumstance of how this unfolded was they were younger. He was in the military.

Speaker 5 He had already had two daughters of his own with another woman. And he was active duty.
So I can't remember what was going on at that time, but he was getting shipped overseas and stuff.

Speaker 5 And so they had broken up. They were on and off.
They break up. He ends up coming back into town.
I don't know if they're living in Chicago or Maryland at the time.

Speaker 5 And they started talking, maybe had a one-night fling, whatever. She ends up getting pregnant.

Speaker 5 And at the time, she was taking care, I think, of an elderly parent, a father, mother.

Speaker 5 But all of the things going on in her life weren't ideal to give a child the life she'd want, you know.

Speaker 5 Granted, all the loves there, but she, I think, at at that moment in time, said, hey, my responsibilities and attention has to be given to all these other things and don't know that I have the ability to give the love I would really want to give to this child.

Speaker 5 So my father at the time says, listen, I already have two other daughters. This is your decision.
Your body, your choice. I'll stand behind you with whatever decision you make.

Speaker 5 So they made the difficult decision being that he was tied up in the military. And they didn't have a sound home and everything intact at the time to give me up for adoption.

Speaker 5 So it was actually two years later that they ended up reconnecting, got back together.

Speaker 5 It might have been a little sooner that they got in a relationship, but they ended up having a daughter.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 5 And they've been married ever since. So the whole reason they reached out was to tell me, listen, you have a sister and she doesn't know about you.

Speaker 5 We've never told her that she's got a biological brother that we gave up for adoption.

Speaker 7 Full biological, which is very rare for adoptees to have.

Speaker 6 But not alone, like you have the full biological, but you have two other sisters too through him, through your dad, right? Because you said he had two daughters.

Speaker 5 Technically, and I've never met them. Yeah, so I technically do.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And but what she went on to explain is that all of their life, obviously something that you've grappled with on the forefront of their mind was worrying, just

Speaker 5 how is he doing? Is he okay? That's all they want to know is parents. That he's loved, he's good, and he's okay.

Speaker 6 Well, yeah, because with closed adoptions, like... We're just your birth parents are sucked with all the what-ifs.
We don't know where you're at, who you're with, or anything.

Speaker 5 No, and I think as humans, and when you have that biological connection,

Speaker 5 there's this innate love and worry that you can't turn off, right?

Speaker 9 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 And so she said that even though they have a daughter and a family and a life, it was always on their minds, worrying and wondering. And I guess because of social media,

Speaker 5 started playing detective searching. They knew, I guess, like maybe the first name in my mother's maiden name.
Okay. They had certain information.
So they went on Facebook and eventually found,

Speaker 5 I guess, my mom's page was searching and saw a picture of a boy on it. Oh, wow.
And she was able to say, that's my son. You know, I see the resemblance.
So from there,

Speaker 5 I got to learn about medical history. You know, I asked all sorts of questions.
Do you have any struggles? This, that, and the other.

Speaker 5 Granted, I think there was a lot of uncomfortability on her end, granted, because it's the first time you're talking to your son. You want to put your best foot forward

Speaker 5 and all these things. But, yeah, learned.
I had a sister who's living in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 5 And then from there, we connected. It was about a month later, I flew her down.

Speaker 10 Your birth mom?

Speaker 5 No, my

Speaker 10 sister. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it was fascinating because we learned how nature versus nurture impacts us all so differently. But there was a lot of similarities in terms of our thought processes and different things.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 5 How we think where we're like, man, we're really similar. This is cool.

Speaker 15 Right.

Speaker 5 But it was also very, very heavy because

Speaker 5 that first time she came down, FaceTimed her parents, and that's when I got to see them for the first time.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 5 And it was with her.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Yeah.
Because,

Speaker 5 you know, part of this whole journey and connecting with them and learning to have a biological sister,

Speaker 5 it could be a lot emotionally.

Speaker 9 And I can imagine everyone's different. Yeah.

Speaker 5 But as a lifelong people pleaser and someone that's just been conditioned, I think,

Speaker 5 to connect with people easily, but

Speaker 5 really try to be mindful of others' emotions.

Speaker 7 It was hard, but

Speaker 5 I couldn't imagine what it's like to be in their shoes. You know, all these people's shoes.
And so I wanted to afford them opportunity to get to see sister and brother together.

Speaker 9 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, some closure. That's got to feel good, you know, as a mother and father.
And I think it was.

Speaker 5 And then it was probably like a year and a half later, I was up in Pittsburgh and I went with my sister to meet them for the first time.

Speaker 6 Wow. And how did that go?

Speaker 5 It was very heavy emotionally.

Speaker 5 I wasn't prepared. I thought I was.

Speaker 5 But inevitably, the more you connect and just have conversation and spend that time, your brain wanders and you think and you wonder what were these people like? What my life had been and all this.

Speaker 5 And I think when it was all said and done, I know that it was something that they needed.

Speaker 5 Getting to talk with them both individually, that it was a worry they had for their life, you know, their entire life.

Speaker 5 And what a blessing to see, you know, their biological son and daughter both healthy, connected, knowing about each other.

Speaker 5 And then I also tried to reinforce to them and communicate the best I could of how much love I have for them.

Speaker 5 And just

Speaker 5 that if there's ever a moment where you're feeling like guilty as a parent, just know that I've had the greatest life,

Speaker 5 one that I don't know that anyone else could have given me.

Speaker 5 You know?

Speaker 6 And I bet for your birth mom and your birth dad, that has to heal a part of their soul.

Speaker 6 Knowing that you had such a great life with such great adoptive parents that loved and adored you and raised you to be empathetic and you know, loving to the world, like I could, that's got to heal a part of them too.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think

Speaker 5 as parents, you're proud, yeah, right, right.

Speaker 7 When you said, like, you know, you thought you were prepared, but you weren't, like, what is that, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 7 Like, you thought, like, all right, I'm good, I got this, and then it was just more intense than you expected, or

Speaker 5 so, you know, the interesting thing I think about life is until we really experience something firsthand, we can try to speculate and assume, prepare ourselves what's this going to be like, but we have no idea.

Speaker 5 And I think that I had always assumed, based on my upbringing, my understanding of like psychology, myself, this whole situation that I've experienced, that hey, if I meet my biological parents, I'm good.

Speaker 5 You know, like I'm good. There's no confusion.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But the fascinating thing about that is once I met them and everything,

Speaker 5 it just starts to make you

Speaker 5 maybe take on a perspective and reflect on emotions that you didn't know were present.

Speaker 6 I'm going to say, I feel like you can walk into something like that feeling like you're very prepared, but then it just brings up so many emotions and so many different questions that it's got to be overwhelming a little bit very

Speaker 5 and and i i think for me in this whole experience where

Speaker 5 it's it it became uh much more kind of like uh complex for me was having a biological sibling yeah and i i know there's uh a deep-rooted love there and connection

Speaker 5 but there's a lack of

Speaker 5 understanding i don't think she has the ability to understand what it's like to be me who's adopted she won't can yeah she doesn't. Yeah.
And some of us, and it's not necessarily a negative,

Speaker 5 don't even have the desire or even the ability if someone presented it to us to try to want to understand, right? Right.

Speaker 5 So I think from her shoes, this whole experience was, oh my God, I have an older brother, a biological brother.

Speaker 5 Now is an opportunity for us to all to be a family and connect, and I want you to meet my relatives all out of love. And it's well intended.

Speaker 5 But I think that's where it became trying and difficult for the relationship as a whole. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because that's where I encountered volatility emotionally. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And said, hey, I'm not prepared, nor do I want to take that on, not out of spite or resentment. Right.
I have great parents.

Speaker 5 I love them. I have great family.

Speaker 7 I love you.

Speaker 15 Right.

Speaker 5 But you got to respect these boundaries. I don't want to pursue those relationships and everything.
And so,

Speaker 5 yeah, I think it got a little messy there with push and pull with our relationship as siblings, where she wants me to spend time with mom and dad,

Speaker 5 you know, become closer, pursue this relationship. And I'm saying, not interested, all love, but I'm comfortable doing that.
I think that translated into you don't love them or all that.

Speaker 10 Right, yeah, right,

Speaker 7 which had to have been really hard because you're over here like, no, I swear.

Speaker 10 I'm just like,

Speaker 9 that's a different thing.

Speaker 5 I'm not ready for that. And that's something, you know, my sister Molly lives in Pittsburgh.
It's something something we haven't been able to sit down and talk about.

Speaker 5 And our relationship, I'm just very open.

Speaker 5 Our relationship,

Speaker 5 I feel like, has been strained in many ways because there's unspoken words and communication that has yet to be had about some of these sensitive things where we both come from very different upbringings.

Speaker 5 And I don't have the ability to understand what it's like to be you and the life you've lived in that relationship, nor do you have for me. No.
But with that said,

Speaker 5 I would hope hope that at some point we could get to a place where beyond the inability to understand, we accept, we respect, and we say, hey, I'm not capable of understanding, but I love you.

Speaker 6 Yeah, or even getting to a place of where, like, like you said, having a face-to-face conversation and just you laying out boundaries as the adoptee.

Speaker 6 Like, hey, we can still communicate and have a relationship, but if you don't feel comfortable getting super involved with other people, like, that's fine too.

Speaker 6 Because, like, we've learned through like just speaking to like adoption therapists and stuff like that for adoptees, they say like it's like you go through reunion, you meet your birth family and stuff, and it's exciting and it's an emotion, it's very emotional.

Speaker 6 And then the adoptee needs to take a step back to process all these feelings and thoughts and emotions.

Speaker 6 And then sometimes they come back and they learn a little bit more and then they step back to process it again.

Speaker 7 Like it's the more they learn, the kind of the more they get

Speaker 7 boundaries.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's like an ebb and flow, you know, and it makes sense because, you know, even though you had this beautiful, amazing life,

Speaker 6 it still has got to just just be sad and overwhelming with certain aspects of just being adopted and meeting all these different people.

Speaker 7 Well, and also, like you said earlier, like being a people pleaser and stuff, like, you know, which makes a lot of sense. And I can relate.

Speaker 7 And it's actually super common. A lot of adoptees feel that way.

Speaker 7 And we're still learning about like the pre-verbal trauma that babies go through and stuff when they're maternal separation and all that kind of stuff. But

Speaker 7 I think you bring up a good point as in, like, listen, like, I, there's, and there's an unnecessary pressure almost in a way, especially when your biological siblings go, oh my gosh, my dream, but it's my dream,

Speaker 7 and like you said, it all comes out of love, but at the same time, I'm the one that has to deal with all this, like,

Speaker 7 heavy stuff. I mean,

Speaker 7 to think about even

Speaker 7 to even think about the life you could have had, or would have had, or all this stuff, it's got it's so overwhelming that I don't think people who aren't adopted will, they just never will, they'll never get it.

Speaker 7 They never will.

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Speaker 5 the the thing that stood out to me as a young boy i can remember as early as kindergarten when i would go to school all i wanted was for every kid to be so happy and feel loved and ensure that they're loved they're happy they're happy because that's what i had at home but I don't know if this was my brain's chemistry coming to this world where there was a deep-rooted fear of abandonment or something that was just naturally present.

Speaker 5 When I was met with other children or

Speaker 5 people that were sad, unhappy, or in turn weren't kind and were rude, I want to dedicate all of my time to changing that about them and making them feel good, even if that meant subjecting myself to bullying or whatever.

Speaker 5 And I can remember sleeping over at friends' houses.

Speaker 5 Granted, I had the most loving parents, but anytime I was sleeping over at somebody else's houses, even if they didn't have a close-knit family or whatever, in my mind, I envied what they had.

Speaker 5 I said, I wish I had this loving family and all this.

Speaker 5 And I reflect back on that and I say, there was quite a disconnect there. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because the very thing that I was idealizing and dreaming of was present, and I had all that. And that makes me wonder, was that this subconscious, deep-rooted thing?

Speaker 2 I think it is.

Speaker 7 It's interesting that you mentioned that you said your mom's a therapist.

Speaker 7 So I wonder, I'm curious

Speaker 7 on her studies or if she's ever delved into that space of what adoptees and what the statistics are. I mean, they're through the roof about a lot of these abandonment issues,

Speaker 7 the mental health stuff. I mean,

Speaker 7 they're a minority group. They represent 2% of the whole world's population.
And yet we're still learning about how pre-verbal trauma affects the development of the brain in the baby.

Speaker 7 And I think it's interesting that you would have that perspective because you're saying, I had a great life. Why would I go spend the night at someone's house?

Speaker 7 And almost like it's like it's one of those things about your body keeps a score, like your body remembers certain things.

Speaker 5 I'm able to interject kind of like logic and step back and say, Okay, well, that doesn't make sense. That's not what was really transpiring.
But what I've come to accept is, as a human and as a baby,

Speaker 5 things can happen to us, and science has proven that where we can come into this world already impacted by our ancestors, a certain set of brain chemicals and trauma. And I think

Speaker 5 that's just it. You know, I had a fear of abandonment.

Speaker 5 And as I went through life, even though I was equipped with this great upbringing and all the tools, and I think, oh, I'm a great communicator, I experience a lot of challenges in relationships, especially intimate ones, and even friendships, where I could struggle to deal with disappointments or people

Speaker 5 doing things that maybe reveal to me that they're not so loving or they don't care about me.

Speaker 5 But it was my inability to have the right tools to be able to process things emotionally in a healthy manner, control my response, regulate my nervous system. And so I've always wondered.

Speaker 5 Obviously, it can be varying degrees for different people depending on the circumstance, but what percentage of people that are adopted struggle with these things beyond

Speaker 2 what's happened in life.

Speaker 7 Yeah, which is what we've learned doing this work.

Speaker 7 And honestly, our whole goal was just to, since adoptees only represent such a small percentage and they're the ones that are most affected by adoption in general, is the reason why we're trying to give a voice and just a place for adoptees to share their stories.

Speaker 7 Because I think it's important for people, the more we know, the better we can do. And I think if the more we know and recognize that adoptees share a very common

Speaker 7 common struggles, we can do something to help that or

Speaker 7 to kind of figure out a way to like make this a little better experience.

Speaker 7 Because I think the whole point of it is, is that you did have a great adoption experience, and that is, is, you know, it's great, but a lot of people didn't.

Speaker 7 And so, if we can, until every adoption kind of has a feeling, I think until every adoption is like yours, yeah, where the adoptee says, I had a house full of love and I was so loved, and you know, you got work to do until every adoption but what's really eye-opening is humans

Speaker 5 adopted or not something that universally we all struggle with is not feeling lovable or good enough

Speaker 5 and in life as time goes on it gets harder we experience more loss heartbreaks these things that make us take on these self-limiting beliefs or question our identity And I think with people that are adopted, you know, from the few that I've connected with was sharing the story on social media.

Speaker 5 I was a police officer at one point in life and I had the opportunity to deal with a lot of kids in foster care. It seems like

Speaker 5 many people, regardless of their age and the experience,

Speaker 5 there's a lot of struggles with self-worth, being enough.

Speaker 5 And I think that's human,

Speaker 2 just being human, you know?

Speaker 6 So question, do you know, so when you were placed for adoption,

Speaker 6 was open adoption just not a thing? Or do you know if like your biological parents didn't want to have open or if your adoptive parents didn't want to have any contact with your birth family?

Speaker 5 That's a great question.

Speaker 5 I don't know definitively offhand what the circumstance was, but if I had to guess, I think it was

Speaker 5 probably

Speaker 5 out of respect to both sides.

Speaker 5 I don't know who typically has control over that. Is it the person

Speaker 8 placing?

Speaker 6 Usually, well, now newer days and age, yes. It was now is like the bio family has the chance to make that decision.

Speaker 7 Okay. But none of it's law.
law.

Speaker 6 You know, the adoptive parents can yeah, but there are, you know, even to this day, there's some adoptive parents that want to adopt and they're like, nope, we want closed or we want open.

Speaker 6 So it just really, it really depends. Because what year were you born?

Speaker 5 83.

Speaker 7 83. So I'm pretty sure a majority were closed back then.
Okay.

Speaker 7 And I think with new, with new data and new studies and new, you know, things that we're learning, a lot of, I mean, I think 90% of adoptions that happen today are open because the therapists are all like, hey, listen, this is what's, this is what's shown to be the most beneficial for the adoptee.

Speaker 7 So I think it's interesting. So were you, do you know if you were placed through an agency or were you straight out of the hospital?

Speaker 5 Interesting. So it was like, okay, day two.
Yeah, I joke around when people have asked me this story. I said, oh, it was eBay.

Speaker 9 They did the buy it now.

Speaker 10 Right, right, right.

Speaker 5 You met the reserve.

Speaker 11 But no,

Speaker 5 yeah, it was straight out of the hospital. And I think it was,

Speaker 5 I would assume all of this was taken care of prior to the birth of the child.

Speaker 5 Me.

Speaker 5 but uh from what i understand it was the second day in the hospital is when that your parents had so so your so your parents were they were they were they on a list were they they what like how did does any of that do you know any of that story about how they came to actually adopt a child you know what's really funny i've never sat down with my parents and asked that story or that question.

Speaker 7 It's an interesting story because I'll talk about it for every adoptee and I always. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So my parents, prior to adopting me had a biological daughter of their own okay

Speaker 7 and she so I'm 42 I think she's 60 or 61 so it's like an 18 year age gap wow oh okay whoa okay so wow okay so your your your mom wasn't it's not like she struggled with infertility they had 18 years later they decided to do it all over again and not and they so they chose not to do it biologically yeah that's interesting to me and i wonder why that is and then when i was 25 years old I was living in Gainesville, Florida, which was about four hours from West Palm Beach, where I was from and where they live.

Speaker 5 And I was working as a police officer. And my father was in his final years of teaching.
He taught for like 40, 50 years.

Speaker 5 In his last five years, he was a guidance counselor, which was different from him just being a teacher. And I got a call one day, and I learned that I have another sister.
And I said, wait. What?

Speaker 5 What? Yeah. So my parents, in my father's final years of teaching, he was a guidance counselor.
And one of his students,

Speaker 5 I guess he came to find out through the discussions, you know, and sitting down, going over things, that she had no parental direction or guidance in her life.

Speaker 5 The relationship with the parents was severed at an early age. I'm not even sure if they were still living, if one was incarcerated or what it was.

Speaker 5 But she had had a brother who she was in high school with. who was a very talented athlete and fell victim to peer pressure and outside influences.

Speaker 5 And he ended up getting tried as an adult and going to prison for bringing something to school he shouldn't, joining a gang. Oh, wow.
And so that destroyed his aspirations.

Speaker 5 But his sister, who was my dad's student,

Speaker 5 was still in school getting ready to graduate, but didn't have the parental direction, love, or guidance in place.

Speaker 5 I guess my father recognized she was very bright, intelligent, and her dream was to go on and kind of be like a guidance counselor too and help people.

Speaker 5 And so I think through that connection, learn more of the intimate details about her circumstance in life and they must have built a relationship.

Speaker 5 And then, so next thing you know, my parents are like, yeah, you got another sister. Oh, wow.
And so

Speaker 5 that was pretty wild too. Yeah.
And that was a whole nother experience for me because I can remember experiencing resentment and jealousy at the time.

Speaker 5 Granted, I was in law enforcement and my mindset and who I was as a person was a lot less open and loving and

Speaker 5 because of, you know, just where I was at in life and my inability to probably uh deal with that at a young age. So, I can remember being, wait, what?

Speaker 5 What you're and she's living in my room, she's in our house, right? I mean, my response was disgusting now when I look at it now, but I think it was just jealous.

Speaker 5 Like, I'm not gonna get all the love, right? And there's a new star in town, right?

Speaker 5 You know, wow, but uh, yeah, now uh, you know, they helped her graduate, she got a scholarship, and now she's uh a social worker.

Speaker 6 Oh, wow, she lives in Virginia, so How awesome is that?

Speaker 5 Yeah. And brother ended up getting out of prison, doing great.

Speaker 2 All good. Yeah, all's good.
Wow.

Speaker 7 So, so, so, so you never, it's so interesting because

Speaker 7 most

Speaker 7 adoptees are very interested in their origin story, their birth story, their adoption story. And I almost, it's kind of cool that, like, you know, like, I haven't had that conversation with them yet.

Speaker 7 I have no idea. Because I always find it interesting, especially with older adoptions.
Like, was it through an agency? Was it through a family lawyer?

Speaker 7 Was it a friend of a friend who's like, hey, you know, and

Speaker 7 but the fact that, you know, they could have chiller biologically, but chose for 18 years later, the second child, they weren't going to do that. That's really like, I'm so curious.

Speaker 7 I wish your parents were here.

Speaker 5 I think if I had to guess now, and they probably have told me bits and pieces. So, both my parents have dealt with Crohn's disease from an early age.
Okay.

Speaker 5 My mom, it's been a lot more severe throughout her life. Like,

Speaker 5 she still to this day, she has to go get infusion. She's at the hospital every day, if not every other day.

Speaker 5 And she's had to try all sorts of steroids, but she's had 40-something surgeries on a large intestine and only has a few feet left now.

Speaker 5 So, with her journey in Crohn's, it's a lot of scar tissue, inflammation, heavy on the body. My guess is she probably wasn't a candidate for a typical pregnancy to the health risk.

Speaker 6 No, that makes sense.

Speaker 7 Yeah. So, 18 years apart, though, between your that means you guys weren't really raised together at all.

Speaker 10 No. Wow, that is.

Speaker 5 Yeah, my memories memories with my sister, my upbringing, aren't till really later on in life.

Speaker 5 Um, actually, going with my parents, probably when she was like 18 or 19, before she went on dates with guys,

Speaker 5 there was a couple times, and I don't think this is like a habitual thing, but there was a couple times where we kind of went as a family, me, my mom, and dad.

Speaker 5 We drove down to Miami where she was living.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 5 It's kind of blurry, but we would go to her apartment, say hi, like wait around, and then the guy would show up with like flowers.

Speaker 10 Oh, funny.

Speaker 9 We were there real quick, say hello.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I don't know if it was my parents, like vetting them,

Speaker 5 but I can remember a couple of those.

Speaker 7 And are you close with her now?

Speaker 5 No, we're not super, so I have a niece. Okay.

Speaker 5 She lives in Florida.

Speaker 5 It's all love, but I think just because we were never close like that, we've lived our separate lives. We get together on holidays.
Yeah. Wish each other well, but not really.

Speaker 5 Truth be told, like, I don't. Really know her and she probably really doesn't know me.

Speaker 6 Well, I was gonna say, especially with being like 18 years years of an age gap, like when you were born, she's just getting into adulthood, trying to figure out who she is, what she wants to do, living her life.

Speaker 6 I mean, I feel like that would be hard to kind of have a bond.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 7 did you ever now? Did she, what is her thoughts? Did she ever have any? Because I'm assuming when you, like, hey, I, I, I have a biological sister full out there.

Speaker 7 Like, did she have any thoughts about that?

Speaker 5 You know, that's a great question. We, like I said, not super close, so we've never sat down and had like a real in-depth conversation about that.

Speaker 5 I don't know if emotionally that impacted her in any way, shape, or form as a result.

Speaker 5 But something that, as a people pleaser, something that's always been on my mind in navigating these relationships is not wanting to make anyone feel less than or there's a favorite.

Speaker 5 So what do I really mean by that?

Speaker 5 Posting on social media.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I've always been very careful about, and this might just be in my own head, right?

Speaker 5 But about sharing posts or certain things, highlighting an achievement of one or a birthday, making it seem like I love them more.

Speaker 5 Granted, she may not be worried about that or perceiving it that way, but I've always tried to go out of my way to ensure that

Speaker 5 any of my sisters aren't feeling like

Speaker 5 Dave loves one more or one less.

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Speaker 7 Did your parents ever meet your biological parents?

Speaker 5 No. Okay.
So never met them, but

Speaker 5 I've spoken to my my parents in depth about that meeting.

Speaker 5 We've had in-depth discussions about it all because something I thought was really important was: okay, I've my parents know that I connected with my biological parents and the sister and all this, but I didn't want them to be in the dark because I know they probably have a lot of unanswered questions and worries, not only about me, but who are they?

Speaker 9 Right. Yeah, right.

Speaker 5 And so I've brought them up to speed, kept them in tune with everything.

Speaker 5 It ebbs and flows, but there's times where I regret it.

Speaker 7 Regret what?

Speaker 5 Sharing all that with my parents.

Speaker 2 Oh, really?

Speaker 8 Why is that?

Speaker 5 Part of my regrets at times is because, like, even though they've dedicated their life to the mental health field, if there's anyone that

Speaker 5 could be prepared for this, it's them, right? Because they have all the expertise and understanding.

Speaker 5 We're still all humans. Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, and we could be sensitive. And

Speaker 5 yeah, I think there's times where

Speaker 5 maybe they didn't share it with me, but I think inevitably they maybe question,

Speaker 5 because they're human,

Speaker 5 does he love them more?

Speaker 2 Or what is he feeling?

Speaker 5 Like, there's worries, right? Yeah.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 7 but have you seen those worries like externally? Like, have they expressed anything to you that made you feel that?

Speaker 5 Like, oh, I've noticed, I mean, granted, they're getting older in life now. They're in their 80s, and their life has changed a lot.

Speaker 5 It's trying to stay alive and take care of a lot of health issues or each other's caretakers.

Speaker 5 So with that, it seems like cognitively we experience a lot of regression and change.

Speaker 2 It's inevitable.

Speaker 5 So their ability to process emotions and things is definitely affected.

Speaker 5 But there's been a few conversations that we've had in recent years where they've almost revealed to me that they're questioning whether or not they were good parents.

Speaker 5 Wow. And they gave me a good life.
And

Speaker 5 that's so upsetting to hear, but I'm like, what do you mean? You're the most loving parents. You were the greatest parents.
I love you guys. Right.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I don't know if that's just like a worry.

Speaker 2 I think every parent worries.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I think every parent worries about it.

Speaker 5 But in the back of my mind, I've wondered, did something that reinforce that? What was it, you know, this connection and sharing everything? Don't know. How long have you been?

Speaker 7 How long have you been, like, you know, how long has it been since you had the reunion with them?

Speaker 5 Well, that was 2015 that I found out about my biological parents for the first time. I met them in person.

Speaker 5 It was probably two years ago.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then.

Speaker 7 So it's fairly recent, and this is recent.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So I met them.
I've met them twice in person. Oh, okay.
It was with the first visit, and then it was for a birthday party. I think it was for my niece or my sister.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 5 And then

Speaker 5 actually, it was like six months ago now.

Speaker 5 Biological mother randomly passed away.

Speaker 12 Oh.

Speaker 5 She fell, hit her head. Dad came home, had a heart attack.

Speaker 13 Wow.

Speaker 5 Yeah, brain damage.

Speaker 5 So, you know, I was very fortunate to get to meet him, but the third time was saying goodbye.

Speaker 10 Oh, the third time.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 5 Yeah, just recently was me visiting her in the hospital saying goodbye with my sister and father.

Speaker 10 Wow.

Speaker 7 Okay, because I feel like that, let alone is having an intense to deal with, but also as an adoptee who like just

Speaker 10 got all this.

Speaker 7 I mean, that is super intense for you to be put in that position right i mean especially with your sister who's has a had a totally different you know connection with these people i mean that's that's

Speaker 5 it's put a lot of strain on the relationship with my my biological sister you know the truth is i started sharing this story on social media my journey with the adoption experience and uh

Speaker 5 you know in in doing that my my

Speaker 5 my hope for sharing that video was to make somebody out there feel less alone who's maybe had a similar experience or something different, which I can't relate to.

Speaker 5 But as I started to share that story, something I really thought would be important would be able to get my sister's experience, what it was like for her finding out

Speaker 5 to offer a perspective that I never even probably got to hear firsthand. But I elected to pull back and table sharing that

Speaker 5 because I realized

Speaker 5 not everyone's comfortable sharing emotions,

Speaker 5 and this can get real messy.

Speaker 5 You know, and I know that we all deal deal with loss and grief differently.

Speaker 5 And I truly believe that what a blessing it was for my biological mother to get to know that I'm good, I'm healthy and happy.

Speaker 5 But the truth is, her life did end very short, much shorter than probably expected.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think in times of loss like that, we all reflect differently.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And it brings up a lot of things, all sorts of different just junk and crap and feelings and emotions.

Speaker 5 And so I felt like after that whole experience and that loss, you know, and we all deal with loss differently,

Speaker 5 kind of had to like pull back.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And that's okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And that's okay. And that's a really important thing you just said.
It's okay. Yeah, it's okay.
No matter what you're feeling, what you do, it's okay.

Speaker 5 And we don't always behave and do the things that somebody else expects. You know, and people can interpret things to be rude or insensitive.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 5 how could you not go to this or how could you not be there? But sometimes we got to protect ourselves.

Speaker 6 You have to always.

Speaker 2 Right. Always.

Speaker 7 That's kind of why we always say, like,

Speaker 7 as far as

Speaker 7 if our biological daughter ever come to us, like, our job as birth parents is to bow our heads in humbleness, hands behind our back, and let her either

Speaker 7 leave me alone. If it's I hate you so much, you ruin my life.
If it's I love you so much, I miss you.

Speaker 7 Whatever it is, like our duty is just to hold that space for her because you're accepting whatever it is.

Speaker 7 And honestly,

Speaker 7 I feel like our unique situation, obviously being on TV, I couldn't imagine what it would be like as an adoptee to watch.

Speaker 7 Like, you know, our biological daughter is the only adoptee that I know of that is going to be able to witness the aftermath of 16 years of it. You know, she's like,

Speaker 7 not every adoptee gets to watch their birth parents grieve. And I feel like that is something that could also be a blessing.

Speaker 6 Or it could be damaging. Or it could be blessed.

Speaker 5 Because Because all of that was televised. You're saying.

Speaker 7 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 6 Ever since, you know, I mean, they would follow us after we left a visit and us just being in shambles. They would follow us.

Speaker 5 If you don't mind me asking, do you know if she's seen

Speaker 6 I don't know if she has seen all of it.

Speaker 6 For a long time, they kind of sheltered her from the show.

Speaker 6 But now she is, you know, 16 years old. So she is seen, I think, bits and pieces and stuff like that.
But I don't really know as, I don't know how much she has seen of it.

Speaker 7 But yeah, I know that for her, like, I couldn't imagine, you know, being an adoptee and watching your birth mother in the hospital holding you as a baby, saying goodbye.

Speaker 2 Like, that's huge.

Speaker 7 And that's heavy. And that's.

Speaker 6 And it might be something that she doesn't want. It might be too much for her.

Speaker 10 It's not too heavy for her to watch.

Speaker 5 But what's really such a blessing is that

Speaker 5 that is out there. Yep.
And she'll get to make that decision because she's a young adult now. And as she grows into

Speaker 5 the human that she's going to become, at any point,

Speaker 7 that that's available because some people don't have the ability, yeah, it's wild, and I think what a blessing to know that it was all out of love, yeah, yeah, yes, you know, because I think even adoptees wonder, like, why, why me, you know, why, especially when you have adoptees telling you that, you know, they're the only one out of seven kids plays for adoption.

Speaker 7 Why did you, you know, why did you parent into their children? And that's kind of a situation that me and her in is we stay together. It's very rare for your biological parents to get back together.

Speaker 7 I mean, it's, it's just,

Speaker 7 it's not heard of.

Speaker 2 It's so.

Speaker 5 So, and I think that experience, separate from the child,

Speaker 5 the parents who are giving, having to make that decision for whatever reason to give a child up for adoption, that's going to put

Speaker 5 some serious emotional,

Speaker 5 like just lots of things on the relationship. I can't imagine.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 7 I mean, I think, especially being 16, we're kids. Yeah, literally.

Speaker 7 And especially, I think, just coming from our backgrounds, you know, with just the unstable addiction and just everything that was really the callous and reason why we did it in the first place, it just creates a whole different type of

Speaker 7 like pressure almost. Like, we don't know.
And honestly, just growing up in front of cameras.

Speaker 7 I mean, so, like, so I think for, you know, our biological daughter, she's going to be witnessing a lot of mistakes that we made. A lot of things growing up on TV.
You know, 16 up.

Speaker 7 I mean, we literally, at this point, we've been on TV longer than we've not been on TV in our whole life. Like, it's insane.

Speaker 5 How old are you guys when you started on TV?

Speaker 10 16.

Speaker 7 And it's still happening.

Speaker 7 Our finale just aired a couple weeks ago. Yep.

Speaker 7 And so, like, you know, that's a whole different kind of

Speaker 7 experience that we're going to have to eventually have. Where it's like, we made mistakes.
And I was going to ask you, like, what your

Speaker 7 parents who raised you, what was,

Speaker 7 what was, what did they get right being adoptive parents? Like, what did they get right, in your opinion?

Speaker 6 If you could give advice to adoptive parents.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think the greatest thing

Speaker 5 beyond what's spoken by the child and what's communicated, the greatest thing you could do as a parent is shower that child with unconditional support, love, and acceptance.

Speaker 5 Make it a priority.

Speaker 5 Because I'm not a parent, but I feel like that relationship with a parent and child, you obviously want your child to feel open talking to you about anything and coming to you where you're also a friend.

Speaker 5 You wear separate hats.

Speaker 5 But that's not always the case. Some kids aren't comfortable, right? Like we'd rather share things with our friends.
I tell mom and dad.

Speaker 5 But it's prioritizing that and saying, hey, I'm going to do whatever I can as a parent to ensure that

Speaker 5 whether I feel like my child knows this or not, I'm never going to stop.

Speaker 5 communicating to them that they're loved, that if they ever have any questions, they ever want to meet these people, they ever want to know anything, that I'm in their corner and I'm their biggest advocate to support them in doing this.

Speaker 6 Making them feel safe and heard and loved, right?

Speaker 5 Right, and that there will never be disappointment.

Speaker 5 That as a mother and father,

Speaker 5 yeah, you'll never think less of them. It's just, yeah, that unconditional reinforcement that they're enough, they're lovable, they're great.

Speaker 5 But I think it's like a step further. It's just

Speaker 5 the level of parenting. My parents from an early age,

Speaker 5 you know, it's hard to be present as a parent. You got to figure out bills and all these things and you're doing it.
And then by the time you come home, you're stressed out.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 5 And you don't want to deal with this and you don't want to play with the kid. You know, it's like, oh, God.

Speaker 5 But I think amidst all of the things you got to do, responsibility struggles, my parents prioritized loving me, spending time with me, talking.

Speaker 5 You know, they were just those parents that you see go to all the extracurricular activities, still traveling, even though they're struggling with finances and all these other things.

Speaker 5 How do you do that? I don't know. Yeah.
Everyone's doing the best they can.

Speaker 5 But I think as an adoptive parent, you know, if you want to provide love for a child and you're taking the step to be a parent and signing up for this and give them life, you need to do this.

Speaker 5 You need to go above and beyond. So, hey, you're too tired with your job coming home at night, you know, and you don't want to play with the kid? Don't have the kid, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah, no, right.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but I think one that you mentioned that your um that your parents did was that, like, if you ever wanted to start, and you knew this from an early age, if I ever wanted to find them, search for my biological family, they would support you in that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, as early as my mom told me this the other day because, like, I thought at seven years old was the time we had a sit-down conversation on the bed.

Speaker 5 Like, I remember being like between probably seven and ten because it's blurry, but uh, it was like after school one day, and they sat down with me on the bed, and I got to see my

Speaker 5 little outfit when I was a baby, my sock. They had my birth certificate, and it was like a question-and-answer session.

Speaker 5 And I learned that there's a lot of conversations and questions I asked at earlier ages part of that. But I can remember there was no fear and no worry in me asking these questions.

Speaker 5 And like, I understood, oh, okay.

Speaker 6 See, it's because they have always been open and honest with you, and they communicated.

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Speaker 5 When I was three years old, two or three years old my mom told me this is just recently she goes do you know when you were two or three we were walking out of mall together and she's like and I was holding your hand and there was a woman who was pregnant and she was showing like her belly is really big and you turned and looked at me and said did I come out of

Speaker 5 no way your stomach whose stomach did I come out of at wow at three see that is because she probably talked about you being adopted around Jesus so but but when I heard this and understanding human human beings, I said, listen, just because a child doesn't have the ability to communicate and ask these questions, it's in there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they know.

Speaker 5 So, we have to assume that these are worries and wonders of each kid. Reinforce it.

Speaker 6 I always say, like, for people, because some adults really don't think. They're like, oh, they don't remember that.
They don't know this. Yeah, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 6 And I always say, especially like us having, you know, four kids, but raising three, kids are so smart. They're so smart.

Speaker 6 And if they don't pick up on like words yet, they're picking up on all the energies and stuff like that, too.

Speaker 5 Just like Tyler said, a lot of our struggles and feelings and illnesses and all these things aren't visible.

Speaker 5 We're fighting battles and things that we internalize and never share with anybody.

Speaker 5 And I kind of think it's like dogs. So like my only experience with parenting is I got a one-year-old Shiba Inu puppy that I got when I was three months old.

Speaker 6 By the way, our daughter Nova is going to be so jealous.

Speaker 10 She's her favorite breed.

Speaker 2 She wants a Shiba Inu yes. Yes, so bad.

Speaker 10 She's her favorite.

Speaker 6 But yes, she's going to be so jealous.

Speaker 5 Handful, too.

Speaker 5 But when

Speaker 5 I got this puppy with my girlfriend, and I knew about the temperament and breed, and they're not the most affectionate, and they're not going to be lap dogs and sleep with you.

Speaker 5 And that's the kind of dog I wanted. I wanted one where I'm going to get to smother it with love for selfish reasons and feel like, oh, it loves me so much too because it's only in my stomach.

Speaker 5 So I didn't want to get a Shiba Inu because it's not going to make me feel loved. It's not going to let me smother it.

Speaker 5 She wanted to get it. So I said, you know what? Forget what I know about this breed.
I'm going to pretend that this is a human. And I'm having a daughter.
So I'm going to sing to it.

Speaker 5 I'm going to tell it things. I'm going to do all this.

Speaker 5 Well, what is that dog now? It's got the Shiba Inu temperament, so yeah, like the breed, but it's a baby.

Speaker 5 And it loves me and it lets it sing to me. I sing it lullabies.

Speaker 9 You know, it'll sleep with others.

Speaker 7 I have another nature versus nurture example. The breed is supposed to be this.

Speaker 5 Like, I'm a softie. I can cry thinking about the dog.

Speaker 5 but you know as adoptive parents i think what most people

Speaker 5 should just you know

Speaker 5 embrace the perspective and understanding that hey this child regardless of whether they express to me they're good they're not good they understand they don't have questions reinforce it yeah you know like do it anyway bring it up anyway even if they're not asking questions and before they can even talk right and speak and do all that tell them right yeah reinforce it remind them and and i think that's what my parents did.

Speaker 5 At least that's what they told me. They said, even when I was a baby, they would sing to me.
They would say things.

Speaker 5 And I think what they probably did was, you know, I was probably six months old and I have my mom reinforcing me or how loved I am.

Speaker 8 Right.

Speaker 6 Isn't that beautiful?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Thank God.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 It's beautiful. And that's probably why, just, you know, also your personality, but I think that's also why.

Speaker 6 As you've grown up, you've been such an empath and about humanity. And that's why you do the type of content that you do on TikTok of people just loving loving people and loving themselves.

Speaker 6 And it's beautiful, it's because of them, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. From them, always putting it into you and reinforcing it, but also,

Speaker 6 I just want to say, like, I think I love hearing about your story and that you had such a great upbringing with adoptive parents. And one thing I did want to go back to before we leave, um,

Speaker 6 I want to, I just wanted to say, from like a birth mom perspective, that I, I'm so,

Speaker 6 so happy that you got to meet her before she passed because thank you Tyler and I we hear stories so many stories of adoptees that'll be like I found out who they were but I was too nervous I waited three months then I reached out and found out they were dead you know or sometimes some of these are like you know I was gonna go meet them and then they died two days later or something and it's just like you never know when it's gonna happen

Speaker 6 and I have a feeling I think that your birth mom you know could pass away with a sense of peace knowing that she did get to meet you and get all those what-ifs kind of sort of answered.

Speaker 5 And what you said right there is one of the truest things about this existence in life,

Speaker 5 where, especially in the adoption space, and you guys know probably better than anybody, that there's so many adoptees and people at different stages of life where they have this curiosity and wonder, but there's fear, and fear can halt us from doing things.

Speaker 5 But in life, we know how fragile this is.

Speaker 5 If you don't take the time to sometimes make yourself uncomfortable, communicate feelings, questions, that opportunity can come and go.

Speaker 2 Well, we always teach our kids.

Speaker 6 We always say like,

Speaker 6 he always asks Sonova, our oldest, you know, what is on the other side of fear?

Speaker 7 I always ask her. Oh, because she gets kind of in her head.
She's a lot like me.

Speaker 10 And so what do you tell her?

Speaker 7 I say, what is on the other side of fear? And she says, discovery.

Speaker 10 And joy. And opportunity.

Speaker 7 And the opportunity

Speaker 7 is joy.

Speaker 6 learning something new.

Speaker 7 Because we always try to teach them, like, you know, even though you're scared, like on the other side of it could be amazing and beautiful and joy well i pretty much always heard like fear fear unfortunately is the enemy and that and that is something that you have to really take seriously but also you can't let it control your decision making because like we just talked about there i i and i didn't know this until we started getting the adoption work that there were so many adoptees who reached out and said i was so scared to hurt my adoptive parents feelings that i didn't say anything for years and and they neglected their own internal and they even said and they even said i came from adoptive parents who said if you you ever want to, I will help you.

Speaker 7 So they're

Speaker 7 internal thing that adoptees uniquely experienced.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 7 they had the best adoptive parents. They're so loving.
They're so understanding. And they even preach, like, please let us help you find them.

Speaker 7 But that internal fear of disappointing them or hurting them,

Speaker 7 so they waited so long to where they finally got the courage to do something, and it's too late because their bio parents are now dead, and they have no answers.

Speaker 7 And I feel like that right there is what is at risk if you allow fear to dictate your decisions. And

Speaker 7 that's why I always tell our kids, like, on the other side of fear is opportunity.

Speaker 5 The toughest part, and this is like a big unknown, I think, with that connecting with biological parents, and everyone's different how you respond.

Speaker 5 But it's in the situations where the human, you know, the adoptee is reaching out and connecting, and

Speaker 5 it's not so favorable. You know, you're not so proud of the people they are, right?

Speaker 5 And that's one of those things where, like, maybe there's no way of knowing this beforehand. It's kind of like a gamble.

Speaker 5 But that's where, and I don't know that anyone could ever be prepared. I think that's where it can get really messy.

Speaker 6 Yeah, of course.

Speaker 5 And really throwing a wrench and

Speaker 5 just our ability to think rationally, function rationally. When it's that type of situation, you reach out and connect, and then you realize,

Speaker 5 wow, like I'm ashamed.

Speaker 2 And this is a lot of people.

Speaker 6 And I feel like, like, I'm not an adoptee, but I feel like for those instances or anybody that is looking to reconnect with their birth family, I feel like the adoptee should have support. Right.

Speaker 6 You know, whether it's their therapist support or their parents' support or something, because like that, if they find they reach out and they find out, like, oh, they're not really healthy people.

Speaker 7 And we've heard a lot of reunions where adoptees are like, this was not a good experience for me.

Speaker 7 And I also think that's important to talk about is that like, like, as an adoptee who especially wonders and is curious about their biological family, there's a lot of fantasy involved and you kind of get a dream version of what these people might be like.

Speaker 7 And then that dream gets totally crushed. It's like to have as least amount of expectations as possible is the best, safest way to go and don't expect.

Speaker 10 There's no disappointment. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And so I feel like it's important that like...

Speaker 6 And have a support system.

Speaker 7 And I also think it's important too to like, you know, understand that reunions with biological families isn't always the best. It's not.

Speaker 7 And sometimes, you know, but I also feel like the adoptee deserves the dignity to discover that for themselves.

Speaker 7 Even if the adoptive parents know they're going to find out they're not good people, they give them the dignity to discover that because that

Speaker 7 has to be a part of their own journey and understanding that connection or whatever.

Speaker 7 But so another question I had was what could, since you experienced reunion with your biological family, what

Speaker 7 could birth parents

Speaker 7 what could they do better? What could they do to prepare for a reunion to make it as easy as possible for the adoptee?

Speaker 5 I think, like you said, it's developing a embracing a perspective and mindset that, despite maybe having all these strong emotions and feelings, and questions, and wanting to shower the adoptee with love and reinforce to them that, hey, I feel all this, and this is not why I do this.

Speaker 5 It's their terms.

Speaker 5 And so you almost have to ensure that you're listening, respecting, accepting, and allowing them to move at their speed.

Speaker 10 Makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I think the response that most people

Speaker 5 would want is

Speaker 5 the person to prioritize listening, you know, the parent, biological parent.

Speaker 5 But also,

Speaker 5 as humans, we don't like to be wrong. And I think there's probably circumstances that arise where a biological parent is connecting with the adoptee.
And maybe the adoptee holds resentment,

Speaker 5 has anger, frustration, different things.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 5 as a parent, right? Especially a biological parent, that's probably the worst thing to hear. Right.

Speaker 5 That this kid holds anger, this child that you brought in this world that you may love and have worried about how they're doing and all these things, and they're mad at you.

Speaker 6 And see, and I feel like as a birth parent, me and Ty always said, like, if Carly ever comes back and she does have anger, resentment, hurt, I'm going to sit there

Speaker 6 with my hands folded, listen, and apologize. And then after she's done talking, say, is there anything I can do to help fix this?

Speaker 5 You know what I mean? Because

Speaker 5 I think the beautiful thing, I think, where it could probably get messy is where, you know, a lot of us are inherently selfish, but when you're met with that, that's probably the worst thing you want to hear.

Speaker 5 What do you want to do? You want to convince, no, that's not true, but then you're dismissing, right? You're invalidating, and you're actually fueling the negative feelings and emotions.

Speaker 6 Yep. So, we've kind of prepared ourselves for that.
We're like, whatever she throws at us, we will hands folded, sit there, listen, and say, I'm sorry. What can we do to fix it?

Speaker 7 Like, we always say, I think the best thing

Speaker 7 to say and and just be prepared to say is i'm sorry and i love you and that's i think those two things are the safest responses because i feel like for a lot of adoptees who have this resentment and this anger that is valid right that is real

Speaker 10 and it's their feeling

Speaker 5 and i think i think as biological parents like understand that their perception is their perception and that's and that's real to them so i think to try to like justify, explain, or reason, it's like, no, no, no, just fold your hands, bow your head, and accept accept it there is something that i want to say because i know the the internet and and social media you know we're basically one big audience or peanut gallery and we're judging people day in day out based on what they share what we see how they're behaving and and oftentimes we think we know especially when we're following along on this journey But in the space that you guys are in, you guys have opened up your life to the general public for, what, over a decade now?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And you guys every day are doing what you love, and I'm sure brings you fulfillment first, what you're most passionate about.

Speaker 5 And what people need to understand who are watching this is you may be a parent, you may be a child, you may be a brother or sister, you may be adopted or giving somebody up for adoption, but you don't have the ability to understand who other people are just off a conversation and all this.

Speaker 5 And so I just want to tell you guys, I commend you guys for talking about,

Speaker 5 you know, a lot of these difficult conversations and topics that are hard to talk about but for putting yourselves out there you know amidst all the scrutiny and the cruel internet because I know you guys have emotions and feelings oh yeah especially when it comes to your children and the experiences you've been through and that probably makes it that much harder but you know I hope as people continue to follow you guys along and follow your journey to know that everyone's doing the best they can right and you guys are too yeah everybody is thank you and i just want to say thank you for just coming and joining us and being vulnerable and sharing your experience.

Speaker 6 Of course. Like, really, I feel like the more that these things are talked about, the more we can kind of end certain stigmas, you know, which is super important to us.

Speaker 6 You know, we want to share all adopte stories. And

Speaker 6 for people

Speaker 6 to find you.

Speaker 10 Yeah, where do they find you?

Speaker 6 Where can they find you at?

Speaker 9 Do you know your usernames?

Speaker 5 It's at David B. Shane.
So David B is Mboy and then S-H-A-N-E.

Speaker 5 And that's

Speaker 5 every social media platform.

Speaker 6 And by the way, too, guys, like his TikTok is the most heartwarming content ever. Literally, I love it.

Speaker 7 Just go follow. Yes.
Like and share.

Speaker 9 Thank you,

Speaker 6 thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Thank you, guys.

Speaker 6 And I hope you do everything that you need to to take care of yourself, even at like, even if it is stepping away from your birth family for a while to just process things.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's and I really, and I really hope that you and your biological

Speaker 6 bio sister have the time soon to talk face-to-face and talk about biologists.

Speaker 7 Yeah, if anything happens, let us know.

Speaker 7 We'll do part two.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no,

Speaker 5 I would love that, and I hope so, too. And

Speaker 5 yeah, it's, yeah, thank you for holding this space. And yeah, I hope that anyone who can't relate to the adoption side of things or being a parent who tunes in and follows you guys

Speaker 5 understands that it's okay to not be okay with what you got going on, but there's no such thing as perfect.

Speaker 5 And we're all sitting here invalidating, dehumanizing, and judging, looking for faults in one another. Right.
But everyone's doing the best they can.

Speaker 5 You know, and

Speaker 5 let people live.

Speaker 2 Straight up.

Speaker 6 You hear what he says.

Speaker 13 Be kind.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And it takes a lot to put yourself out on the internet. Yeah.
You know, and be judged. But Tyler and Kate, you know, are loving parents, a husband and wife.

Speaker 5 You know, they have family, they have lives, and you just see them in this space on the internet.

Speaker 5 But before you go to common intact or you read a news story, there's something being reported on them, more than likely it's not true.

Speaker 5 But your brain is going to believe in whatever narrative, right, it wants to believe in.

Speaker 3 Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 7 Confirmation bias.

Speaker 2 It's the worst thing ever.

Speaker 6 Well, guys, make sure you go and find him on all his social medias. And we just want to say a big thanks for coming and just sharing your story.
And we will talk to you guys next week.

Speaker 6 Thanks for joining and thanks for watching.

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