#467 - Chiles Miltree, Toddler Watson and King of the Nerds

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to Ellis, Dave, and Sherlock Holmes Robbins.

Because, like a drunk dad falling up the stairs on Christmas Eve, Dave, you're so bad at hiding that you've got something secret planned for the show.

You are absolutely used to set it.

I'm on the creaky chair again.

How is this back in play?

I threw this over into the corner.

Sorry, John, carry on.

Dave, when you broadcast with me,

you're broadcasting one of the great investigative minds.

So you get ready for the show, you faff about with your bits and your new computer.

Thank you.

A little bit of money coming in.

And then just before,

you just type something into your phone and place it at an angle on the other side of your computer so Ellis can read what's on the screen.

I'm a great investigator.

I thought that was so subtle.

All right, then I'm on while switching.

In what world would someone, just before recording, sort of balance their phone in front of someone else and then say to Bertie, oh,

when the Zoom people join, just let them into the room.

That was the same thing.

Is it even on the sheet?

That's the giveaway.

In my world,

I'd never add two and two together to make four.

Do you know what?

All I did was this.

My phone's my hand.

I just lent it against my left.

Why would you do that?

But it just might be a silly way to have put my phone.

because i might have lost my mind for a second do you turn your investigative mind on or is it always on always on so you can't turn it off you can't turn it off i'm investigating just as i fall asleep and how long when did this begin because sometimes i will notice something i think oh i wonder what that is i think no that's like something a detective would think or poiro show comes and i think this is i often think this i think that is how john no lives his life all the time it must have begun within the last six days because he didn't know lose Sanders was going to surprise him and

call him out on his Scrabble lot.

But I didn't know that.

No, I didn't.

And you hadn't given me a clue either.

Hypervigilance, Ellis, is a double-edged coin.

And

I think I became a great investigator

pre-speech.

Because even

babies sense the emotional weather in the house.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That time.

So I was a sort of,

you know,

a toddler Watson, say.

Oh, what a cute programme.

Toddler Watson.

Yeah.

Because there's one on tele called The Investigators.

That's a bad title.

It is.

But an Australian detective show for kids, I think.

My kids watch it on one of the streaming platforms, can't remember which.

Toddler Watson is a far more charming.

It is, unfortunately, during a lot of the cases.

Baby Sherlock.

Toddler Watson does soil himself.

And that has to be taken into account whenever they're investigating and trying.

And

he gets irrational when he's tired.

Yeah, he sometimes makes it to the toilet.

He's still in pull-ups.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, some of his findings are altered by the fact that he really needs a nap at about two in the afternoon for at least an hour.

And he doesn't like strong flavours.

So it's

pasta and mild gedder.

Apart from Marmite, occasionally, kids love marmite, even though I think it's always quite a strong taste.

So, Dave, when do you want to drop this?

When's this surprise coming?

Well, I've surprised you'll let your phone up again.

That's what I do in the bath when I'm watching the cricket.

That's what Alice is doing right now.

He's watching the crickets.

What cricket is he watching?

What cricket are you watching?

The IPL.

Okay.

I never miss a game with the IPL.

Who do you support?

Cricket, actually, because

I just think it's such a

good format for my third favourite sport, the IPL.

And

I back it.

Okay.

We better have Ronnie O'Sullivan lined up to discuss his two 147s in one match and losing.

No, but in the final I think that podcasting lends itself to what we're about to do.

Okay, great.

Because

the great thing with the podcast is that you can do a deep dive.

You can investigate.

You said something a couple of weeks ago that for Dave and I posed more questions than it answered.

Yeah.

Have you got CC TV from the Curry house where I had two Vin De Luz?

No, I would love that.

I wouldn't.

What are you into, Dave?

No,

you pointed out that you, in your year, unplanned gap year,

you went back to school.

Uh-huh.

We took a trip down memory lane.

You went back to school to assistant direct Castle School Thornbury's production of Guys and Dolls.

Yeah, and you became obsessed with whether or not I was officially asked to.

Whether you were officially asked to or not.

Because we all remember details.

Because for Dave and I, that was quite big.

We never got to the bottom of it.

I don't know.

No, I know.

I think, oh, let's get John in is very different to, who's that on the phone?

Hello?

Yeah.

John?

Oh, yeah.

Hello.

You want an assistant?

Okay, sure.

And so we went straight to source.

So we've got someone on the line who can.

dot the I's and cross the T's.

I'd like to welcome onto Ellis and John, Mr.

Joel Dormit.

Hello, Joel.

Hi, guys.

How's it going?

Very good, thanks.

Now, Joel, in Guys and Dolls, the production that John Assistant directed.

I just need to address the lack of excitement for me joining this.

Well, I'm excited.

I'm tense.

John is tense.

Because

I am being

Sherlock Holmes is being investigated.

You are Moriarty, essentially, in this, Joel.

This is the kind of references that he used to do in school that used to isolate.

So, John always gets very tense when he's being investigated, and that is what's happening right now.

Thank you for coming on the show, by the way, Joel.

It's an absolute pleasure.

So, were you?

Did you have a leading role in Guys and Dolls?

I did, actually.

I think I played Nathan Detroit,

which I think was, I think, is the sort of leading role.

The funny thing about this whole thing is genuinely, I don't remember that you were the assistant director.

Wow.

See, because memory is

fallible.

That's my worry.

Yeah, I do.

Jot,

you are seared in my memory

for life of being a part of my childhood.

And there are many things that I remember you being a part of.

You were

very much like the assistant director of various school plays and things.

You were very good at it.

You sort of became like

student teacher

but but but whilst as a student whilst as a student yeah this is what this is what has piqued my interest who's asking john to do this and if then because you'll know this joe because you've done lots of television there's always a hierarchy and a hierarchy that everyone understands so the director and the producer they're at the top it's slightly more relaxed than tv no no no i'm not signing a contract and saying you better give me favoured nations

what i'm saying is John, if you had a question.

Did John and the teacher ever contradict each other?

And if they did, who are you listening to?

It was John, John's place in sort of the assistant director of general drama

was,

I think, sort of when the teacher would say something and the class felt unruly.

And they weren't listening to the teacher because, you know, he's an older person.

john super slick cool guy would come in and be like hey i'm one of you

i i'm a go-between i'm a mediator

conduit um but actually there's a

there is one quite strict definition of where my directing role began and ended I was in charge of everyone.

And this does sound, now I say it back to myself in my head.

It does sound like what you do to placate

someone who wants to be an assistant director i was in charge of all the roles that didn't have any lines

interesting yeah

so

so there were quite a lot of extras right because we created a very um

a very sort of textured New York City street scene.

Okay.

So we had people sweeping the streets, people selling stuff,

shady figures in the shadows.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I was in charge of all of them.

Okay.

When it came to anyone who was a named part or had lines,

that was the teacher.

Because, like, obviously, you had such a wealth of knowledge of this as an 11-year-old.

I wasn't 11.

I was 18.

You were 18.

Were you 18 at that time?

Yes.

Right, man.

I just, I just,

I'm so happy that

I knew you and I still know you.

I just think it's fantastic.

It's great.

It's sort of textured my knowledge of you so wonderfully, just knowing that you

were like a smaller person once.

You're the only person

who knows, apart from Russell Howard's brother and sister, Kerry and Daniel,

who knows pre.

we're calling it showbiz, Dave.

Pre-podcast Robbins, pre-comedy Robbins.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's, and you just, you're, you're fascinating.

I'm so glad that you've gone into this world because I just don't know what else you would have gone into.

Yeah.

You're just like, you've,

you're such an interesting guy in story.

You just had, you were the coolest

nerd that existed.

You're the coolest nerd.

You're like king of nerd.

That's like.

That surprised me, Joel.

Ellis is going to need specifics, I think.

Yeah.

Well, like, you're the person that could be voluntarily an assistant director of drama and also have

like a leather jacket constantly.

Like it was like burned on your skin.

And yeah.

Then obviously, I'm sure you've talked about the mohawk that you had, but it was like a mohawk wasn't even like,

you couldn't even do a mohawk like other people do mohawks.

It was like a wide tugboat mohawk on top of your, it was beautiful.

Like you made it so cool.

Trailblazer.

You're so cool, John.

Would you say Trailblazer?

Joel, I'm guessing this guy didn't smoke fags.

I'm guessing he played by the rules.

Oh, or is he smoking cigars outside of the science class window?

Yes, exactly.

From afar, I was like, is that a Bunsen burner?

No, it's a cigar.

So what were you, Joel, if Joel, if John was king of the nerds, is which is now something i will never forget

if john was king of the nerds what were you what was your role

i um i i sort of i don't know i mean it'd be interesting to hear it from your perspective john obviously you were like a couple of years ahead so it might like you know how you look at the boys in the year above anyway yeah yeah you're like whoa look at those guys like so i'd be interested to hear what you think what you think i was sort of probably i didn't really enter your memory really because i was like a young just a just younger than you but I I just I sort of didn't really know what I did and sort of lofted from place to place.

I reckon you might have a very different view of me if you're asking someone in the year above

me

because like you say you do sort of you you're perhaps when you're say 14 and I was what 16

you perhaps have less of an idea of how someone fails at being older because you just look at all of them and think, I can't wait to be 16.

I can't wait to be smoking fags next to the sea cadet's hut.

Yeah, yes.

Yes, but I drug fasted the other day.

Did you?

Yeah, I dropped past it.

I was like, oh my God, man.

That was just, I remember always.

You had the, you had, also, I need to add, you had the coolest best friend.

We should have met you a lot more often.

Yeah, I've got to be honest, this hasn't worked out how I planned.

I was sort of hoping for character assassination.

Yeah.

You, you, and was it John Sturgis?

Was that his name?

Were you friends with John Sturgis?

And I just remember

he was the coolest guy in school because he was in the Beaver Forever Spice Day.

Do you just think everyone's cool?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think I bumped into John Sturgis at Bosherton Lily Ponds in Pembrokeshire two years ago.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, and he said I was good mates with John at school.

We played a lot of S-heads together.

Oh, yeah.

Right.

The card game.

Yeah.

And smoked loads of fags.

Yeah.

But I drew the line at Graffiti, where I'm afraid to say he also drew the line, but a very literal line, and joined the lines up using cans of spray paint, Dave.

He's just painting lines.

I was the coolest weeb not to have their own tag.

Right.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Although you did practice your own signature.

Big time.

Got to get it right.

Joel, the other thing that we did hypothesize over last week was if John was to host the masked singer

um so what what do you think are the three qualities that john would need to um and obviously this is he's not trying to take your gig obviously but let's let's say there were there were two presenting roles up for grabs what what what would john need to work on to become that uh that host of that shiny floor show i feel very uncomfortable assistant directing him um

in this role um if it's uh no i don't think you'd i think i think

look john i i think you would, you have a level of cynicism to your, to your general character that doesn't necessarily suit the upbeat nature of the Mars singer.

Do you see how Joel is able to

make observations without being critical?

Yeah, it's great.

I think it's Ellis's job that's actually at risk here.

Yeah.

Because that's respectful.

That was nice.

And

that was the conclusion we came to last week as well.

Well, Ellis said,

I'm not enthusiastic about things I do like.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just can't imagine you revealing, you know,

the politician Alan Johnson.

I love Alan Johnson.

And going like, no, my God.

The problem would be is when it's not Alan Johnson and I'm revealing some reality person or maiden Chelcist

and they're taking off their, I don't know, they're dressed as a big bag of flower.

And they're taking off the

top of the bag.

And I'm going, who's that?

That's the, is that a stand-in?

We need the actual celebrity.

And they go, no, that's Charles Miltry

from Made in Chelsea.

And he's dressed as that.

And he's dressed as self-raising flower for some reason.

That is genuinely.

I'm going to write that down because I think that's actually a really good costume.

Yeah.

Big Pipe of Pringles.

Have Have you had that?

Pipe and Pringles would be fantastic.

I keep saying to them that they should do things which are an actual advert because we could get money for that.

And that's a great idea.

A big Johnny?

Yes.

Just like it's, ladies and gentlemen, it's Magnum.

And they come on.

But an opaque Johnny, so you can't see through them.

Of course.

And then when we go, take it off, take it.

They take it off.

And then we go, but you should really put it on.

Turn it off.

There's a message.

Hashtag stay safe, kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And then it's just a sort of a public information film.

Yeah.

Yeah, about

the dangers of unsafe sex.

Well, Joel, thank you for painting an accurate and pretty pleasant picture

about

the pre-podcast Robbins.

Yeah, thanks for coming on, Joel.

Yeah.

Because Ellis and Dave are really deflated, actually.

Yeah,

they thought you were going to skewer me.

No, I think that's exactly how I would have liked it to go.

We got a bit more of an insight into the voluntary work you were doing at the school.

And

it was quite nice, though.

See, I wanted John to quit.

I wanted him to retire after this episode, but it hasn't happened.

Joel, when we were at school,

just wondered if anyone, did anyone fancy me?

Do you ever hear anything?

There was a mysticism to you that I just feel like...

Like Julian of Orich.

Joel, are you in love with John?

But did you ever hear anything from anyone who's on Facebook?

I didn't hear of anything.

No,

but you know what?

Like,

I'm sure that there were, I'm sure there were murmurs.

I'm sure there were.

Yes, I'm sure there were

assistance.

Because assistant directors are attractive.

And also, statistically, if you're in a school of 200 people, half of them-ish are female.

So that 1%.

Even if only 1% of the year fancied you, that's one person.

That's one person.

So we just need to find that one person.

Next week, they'll be on the show.

Yeah, yeah.

Thanks, Joel.

That was great.

That was really nice.

Have you got any projects coming up you'd like to talk about?

Yeah, well, I've got, well, Mars Singer is coming out to start the year.

I'm just about to start doing the NTAs, which is hard work.

National Television Awards.

National Television Awards, which is very fun.

What are we talking for that, Bunts-wise?

You don't have to transport, Joel.

It's a lot of work.

It's really, it's hard.

It's hard work.

But

it's hopefully going to be a good show.

That's on the 10th of September at the O2 Arena.

Oh, and live on ITV.

Wow,

best of luck, Joel.

Have a bell.

Smash shit.

It's a pleasure to speak to you both.

And yeah, thank you very much for having me on your wonderful podcast.

Big fat.

Cheers, mate.

Man, that's very good.

I'll see you guys soon.

Ta-da!

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What a lovely mum.

Yeah, but genuinely.

What a lovely mum.

That's how I wanted it to go, John.

I don't want anyone to skewer you.

You wanted tales of my poems being pinned to the toilet doors.

Yeah, that would have been nice.

But

I felt we did still get an insight.

It's amazing it's taken so long to kind of get that

insight from Joel.

Is that the first time Joel's been on in our 11-year digital tenure?

No, I remember there was one, we were in a different studio.

So we're in the Capitol studio, because there was something going on in the Radio X1 and Joel was on.

Really?

Yeah, so I think we did have Joel on once during the in the studio where we interviewed Brian May.

Yes.

He's a lovely bloke, Joel.

When I used to do gigs with him, he used to absolutely destroy gigs.

Did he?

Yeah, yeah.

I've got to hand it to him.

People.

He was unfollowable.

It'd be like you were playing a thousand-seater, but there's only 50 people there.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you would go on stage and be like, what happened to all the 950 people?

Yes.

yeah, yeah.

Did you still do stand-up or has he kind of moved into TV now?

Is that I don't know.

I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

I remember doing um

like Hop Farm Festival with him, wasn't he?

And then, and all the comics back said, Well, this looks like a tough gig.

Yeah, you can't really do well in a gig like this.

Yeah, this is this is gonna be too hard.

And he went on after about 30 seconds,

yeah.

Fair play to him.

But, um, anyway,

has that raised your spirits, John?

My spirits weren't weren't low.

No, you're good.

It is an interesting paradox, isn't it?

The the cool nerd.

It's quite a hard that is quite a hard role to pull off.

And I imagine there was a lot of intrigue, because if you're smoking cigars out the window, but then also being the teacher's best mate, that's an interesting that's an interesting line to straddle.

Cool nerd, though, in my experience, they were often the kids who were like into music, so the job used to think, oh, he's a bit thin, or she dresses a bit oddly, but then like the other nerds are like, oh no, I want to be like that.

So I sort of, I do understand the cool nerd.

Although, I think Joel actually used the phrase king of the nerds.

King of the nerds.

A king.

I think it's

because of the nerds.

Because smoking a cigar outside of a window isn't quite cool.

But it's naughty.

Yeah, but it's not, but it's, I mean, like, if someone would come back, they'd be like, is that a cafe cram?

I've only ever seen, I've only ever seen scout leaders smoking them.

It's sort of, it's like one degree off.

Because a cool person would smoke a cigarette.

Yeah.

Not that it is not that it's cool

but a royal nerd

to have a i mean to be blessed to have a royal nerd on the show yeah very very honoured and privileged i remember once me and um

me and a friend were smoking ciggies uh outside one of the media studies rooms and one of the teachers came out of the class because there was a door straight from the the room to where we were smoking and we thought they were

going to tell us off for smoking but she was like what's this idea about you taking religious education at a level you've got to do media studies

you didn't mention the smoking no that's the cool nerd i think yeah um oh we did do red media studies in the end oh we'd have been um terribly told off for smoking in school sixth form was a different vibe

sixth form the tie comes off you undo your top button yeah you put your feet upon the desk and you pull a bottle of whiskey out of the filing cabinet drawer on in my school we in sick form we still had to wear uniform it was just a different you just got to wear a white shirt yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and a different tie no to put a badge in your tie there are no rules wow yeah

good right what should we do next i mean we could do it it was a very john heavy star which is fine so do you want to go into a john wins again or we could save that for later

I could do correspondence.

No, I want to know how John's week been.

How John's week.

Well, it's got here 18 minutes of anecdotal.

I couldn't do 18 seconds of anecdotal from this week, Dave.

I'm living the writer's life.

Oh, are you?

Yes.

Okay.

I'm doing an edit of my book where I read it out loud.

Because apparently that's the best way you can edit text.

Is it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It takes ages.

And you have to close all the windows once you realise the next-door neighbours are in their back garden and you've got the window open and they're just listening to you recite your own book.

Which is mad.

Well, they could be recording it.

They could be recording it, uploading it to Audible.

Next thing you know, it's been pirated.

Oh, good.

Google explains it.

Rod Knapskin all over again.

It's going to end up on LimeWire.

Yeah.

Oh, John.

So you've been sitting in your house with your windows closed

reading aloud to myself.

Reading aloud to yourself your own book.

Yes.

Okay.

That is a recipe for mental health chaos.

It's got to be done.

It has to be done.

It's got to be done.

Absolutely.

Well, why don't we do some correspondence and then I'll do the we can do John Wynns again.

What is this podcast about?

Imagine saying, oh, later on are we talking about all the time cyber one.

Popular feature.

It is.

Oh, okay.

Let's talk about.

us hurtling towards a cashless society.

Hi lads.

A few weeks ago, a listener sent in a very comprehensive list for the use of cash payments.

They missed one crucial item.

Can we please all spare a thought for the tooth fairy if we were to move to a cashless society?

My son's eight, a couple of years ago, he lost his first tooth, a big deal.

And one of those things you totally forget about as an adult until you have kids and relive the weird gruesomeness all over again.

Their teeth

fall out.

I know, but they don't literally fall out.

They start to wiggle and then they get wiggled and wobbled.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, I hate it.

Yes.

The tough got put in an egg cup by his bed.

Oh, that's a good way of doing it.

It was decided this would be easier for the fairy than having to search under a pillow.

I like that.

In the morning, great excitement.

Hooray.

She'd been, and there it was, the shiny one pound coin.

On a totally unrelated note, and for the ears of your younger listeners, of which I know you have many, my husband and I did a little bit of banging going on.

A little bit of banging.

Let's see if they do it.

Let's see if they dare to do it one more time.

Okay, Dave.

After that warning we've given them.

Okay.

See.

After the excitement of the one-pounded worn-off, my son went a bit quiet and not a bit disappointed.

When I asked him what...

Oh, how unbelievable.

Well, Dave, considering the look you gave them from through a ceiling, that was brave.

And they know they're in the wrong.

Izzy's on it, like a car bonnet.

Does that mean?

I don't know.

What does that mean?

I think it means having sex.

No, it doesn't.

Doesn't it?

After the excitement of the one pound had worn off, my son went a bit quiet and looked a bit disappointed.

When I asked him what was wrong, he said he thought he would have got more than a pound, as it was his first tough and Olivia in his class got a fiver.

What?

Wow!

Five quid!

Yeah, despite the fact that I'm pretty sure Olivia is a liar,

I did see his point, and the Toth Fairy doesn't seem to use a standardised system.

I suggested maybe we should wait a few minutes and then check his bank account.

This is good.

Perhaps the Toth Fairy had run out of cash and maybe transferred the extra funds for the special first tough.

Lo and behold, when we checked his account, there it was: an extra £1 referenced Toth Fairy.

Kiss, kiss, kiss.

Is this the start of the Toth Fairy moving to a cashless system, Laura?

These are the things I remember listening to a very angry

phone-in on LBC when Nick Ferrari was talking about.

Really?

On LBC?

Yeah,

when Nick

was a shame.

When Nick Ferrari was talking about the Cashless Society, and he was like, oh, yeah, what do I pay a paperboy?

Into his deal.

Nick, is that your impression of Nick Ferrari?

I can't remember which one's which.

They're all just angry, isn't it?

Nick posh.

Is Nick Ferrari?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, what do I pay a paperboy?

It's absurd.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

Yeah.

And

yeah, there are things like that.

You're always going to need

a few quid here and there, aren't you?

We can't just go completely cashless.

But no one is suggesting we go completely cashless.

No, but it is happening.

But we're just using less cash.

but there are lots of shops now that refuse to take it yes but that's not a cashless society that's a cashless shop uh

yes unless the tooth fairy even if the tooth fairy were delivering money to the someone who works in that shop they could would still take it personally they would be able to put it into the business account but it is happening by stealth because because now it's quite common to have like um swansea city is a is a cashless stadium so football stadiums are cashless apart from millwall where they do heavily encourage you you to use cash.

The only football grant in the football league that seems to do that.

But no, like you can't, you can't use cash at the swans.

But buskers now have a little

chip in a tappy guy.

Yeah.

I take Lila to athletics.

It was always bring, bring a couple of quid, whack it in the metal box.

Now it's like, don't worry about that.

We've got a sum-up machine which you can just tap.

So I think.

Or PayPal.

Or PayPal.

Or IZettl.

or Square or Square.

Yeah.

That's plenty.

That's all of them, is it?

Thanks.

Mark Monzo.

Well, you're different.

That's different.

That was right then.

Revolute.

Different.

You're talking about banks now.

All right, then.

The beach.

I'm just going to start saying words I don't talk.

Ah, yes, Dave.

Finally, some correspondence that is piquing the King of the Nerds' interest.

This is from Roddy.

Dear John, retro wonner and cryptic crossword setter here, Quince from the Independent.

Whoa!

A bona fide cryptic crossword setter, Dave, amongst the listenership.

Are they?

Who maybe I can send some of my cryptic crossword clues I've made up to.

Oh, that's pretty cool.

Wow.

And I'll write copyright all over them and send them to myself.

I think Dave Gorman does it.

Yes, he does.

Yeah.

I have long enjoyed hearing about your fondness for cryptic crosswords and Wordle on the show.

Got in three today, could have been a two, got in two yesterday.

Currently on track for a 50-point game week.

No biggie.

Get it in the hutch.

And was struck by what you said about them on the most recent episode of What Did You Do Yesterday?

I've just submitted a D-fill on the influence of cryptic crosswords on modernist poetry.

Huh.

I'm looking around me and all I see is wheels.

Because we're in my wheelhouse, Ellis.

And it's wall-to-wall wheels.

There's a steering wheel.

There's a wagon wheel, both from a wagon and the biscuit.

There is a copy of the Cass McCoombs album, Big Wheel, and other songs.

Yeah.

There is

the Michael McIntyre game show, The Wheel.

The Wheel is being filmed here.

Yeah, yeah.

A roulette wheel.

Your wheelie bins in there.

My wheelie bins in there.

Foo Fighters track Wheels is playing in the background.

Yes, Big Wheel by Massive Attack is on as well.

It's noisy.

Yeah, the comedy promoter Wheel Briggs is putting on a All right.

No, that's good.

That's good.

That's poor.

That's bad.

That's poor, I'm afraid.

That's bad.

Sorry about that, John.

Carry on.

It's all right, Dave.

Don't worry.

And I thought you might be interested in how T.S.

Eliot's cryptic routine chimes with your own.

Yes, I and the Nobel Prize winner

share.

That sort of psychological space in many ways.

T.S.

Eliot also spent hours a day solving cryptic crosswords, sometimes as a way of overcoming writer's block, and at other times as a private, quasi-meditative practice.

I find it very hard to say the word meditative.

Meditative.

Meditative.

Your response to Max Rushton's son's comment about building blocks, that things don't need to have a solution.

Close attention can be a solution in itself.

God, I don't remember being quite so wise.

No, I remember that.

And I thought, what a wise guy.

But that's wise guys usually a sort of a pejorative, isn't it?

Is something Elliot remarked on himself.

He particularly enjoyed the TLS cryptic, for instance, because it was insoluble and therefore, counterintuitively, helped him to bypass the muddle of his daily life.

A lack of answers, he thought, was the natural condition of existence.

This is good stuff.

Elliot found a religious dimension in this, often making the pun on crosswords and the cross.

But cryptic crosswords occurred to him as a friendlier, secular model for the human's position in a fallen world.

Roddy, I'm enjoying this email.

email.

Yeah, I met a blook in a library once, and he'd done,

I think, a PhD

on

West Walian mining community's attitudes towards the 1926 general strike.

And I was very interested by that.

And I actually gave him my email address and said, please send me your thesis.

But he never did.

I think

you should ask to read this.

This is right up your.

It is, actually.

This is right up your.

Well, Roddy goes goes on.

That's all a frightfully roundabout way of saying that you, John, are in good cryptic company.

If you're interested in a less rambling version of this about plenty of poets besides Elliot, I'd be delighted to send over a copy of my thesis.

Roddy, I will read your thesis cover to cover.

I'll then read it out loud with my windows closed.

So you can email it to ellisandjohn at bbc.co.uk once it's been, you know, checked and double-checked.

I don't want to leak it.

I don't want to.

What's the state of play?

Is he writing it at the moment?

Writing it at the moment.

So when it's all written,

send it over.

Great stuff.

Thanks, Roddy.

That was really interesting.

This is from Dave in Barnsley.

Hi, Alice, John and Dave.

Hope you're well.

After listening to Alice's story about his footwell paint disaster the other month, it reminded me of an incident that befell my old football manager one damp Sunday morning in the early 2000s.

I used to play for my local boozer in the third tier of the Barnsley Sunday League.

And when we played at home, we met at the pitch at 10am to put the nets up, stick in the corner flags, then blast balls at our goalkeeper for 45 minutes as a way of a warm-up.

That sounds like bliss.

This particular Sunday was approaching 10:30am, and our manager, Vinny, still hadn't shown up.

As he had all of the balls and nets and kit, etc., in the back of his car, we just stood on the empty field with 50% of the players smoking, a couple throwing up Saturday night adventures, and one or two curled up in a ball catching up on some sleep.

Sunday meet is hilarious to me.

Well, I love watching football practice because it is all players, regardless of position, practicing 25-yard screamers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Inside the box isn't fair on the keeper.

No one really knows what a sort of running or passing drill is.

So they're essentially all

assuming they're going to have Stephen Gerrard-like qualities for that game.

Yeah.

About five minutes later, we saw Vinny's Mark I Courser crawling down the road at around five miles an hour with his hazard lights flashing and what appeared to be smoke cascading out of the windows.

As he and his mate Alan open their doors I can only describe the scene as being similar to contestants emerging from backstage on stars in their eyes as two Portley silhouettes with hacking coughs appeared through the dense clouds bellowing from a vintage hatchback.

As a bit of background, the local council only marked out our pitch once every couple of months.

As we didn't own our own line marker, our system to keep the lines visible visible was to go to the local timber yard and purchase sawdust to spread down the lines, a cheap and environmentally sound idea.

What happened this particular morning was that our manager had gone up to the timber yard and two tightly packed 50 litre bin bags of sawdust were squeezed onto Al's lap, the back seats and boot being full with net and kit.

They then set off for the pitch.

Unfortunately, on the way from the yard, a pheasant had run into the road, forcing our manager to slam the brakes on, which resulted in Al lurching forward, exploding the two bin bags, and expelling around 100 litres of sawdust into the car.

Of course, the now heavily dusted duo received the sympathy you'd expect from a group of ragtag men in their late 20s.

And as Al castigated any player found laughing, Manager Vinny went ahead, preparing the nets, seemingly refusing to acknowledge the situation.

Even though as he walked the perimeter of the pitch, he was followed by a crowd of timber particles, much like the dusty character from Snoopy.

Of course, Vinny's car was never cleaned from sawdust for the rest of its roadfaring life.

But positive side effect from the incident was that the car and more importantly Vinny always had a lovely pine fresh aroma.

Take a lot of love Dave from Barnsley.

I love that.

Very good.

A lot to like there.

It's dry.

The difference between that and your paint disaster is at least it's a dry yeah you could hoover a thing couldn't you?

Yeah.

Yeah but it's also inhalable.

And there's so much of it.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's not great.

It's not great.

I think I'd rather paint in the foot well than sawdust throughout the car.

Would you?

You're never getting that sawdust

ever.

You'd get through.

It's like glitter.

It's like grief.

Yeah.

Keep hoovering.

It gets better, but it's always there, Dave.

You'd get through multiple hoover bags as well if it's 100 liters of sawdust.

But still, thank you very much for your email, Dave.

Well, is it time for me to battle it out with myself, Dave?

It's what they've come for.

It's what they've come for.

Yeah, give them what we tell them they want.

He gets his laptop out.

In general, how's it?

Well, let's find out how it's going to be.

Let's find out, Dave.

Come on, then, John wins again.

Here we go.

John wins again.

Oh, John wins again.

John wins again.

John wins again.

Wins again.

Wins again.

Well,

okay.

It's not been a jam-packed week of wins and losses, but there are some significant talking points.

Also, quite embarrassing to be working on a Word document on the train called John wins.

And if someone sits down next to you, you're writing down all of the things you've I'm writing this about my friend, John.

Well, before we get into that, also on train experiences, for something we're doing later in the year, I've had to fat...

In fact, no, that's not all.

That's quite nice.

I was going to mention that I had those sorts of things on my laptop on the train.

But that's a surprise for the tour.

So we'll edit out.

Carry on, John.

Well, you can still tease people, Dave.

I thought we were being quite...

Alright, there's a little bit of fun around some previous things that have been said on the show that will be digitally displayed.

Yes.

But when you nip the toilet on a pendolino and you're leaving a sign that says

it looks like you're into bad memes.

I like a 25 year old penis.

Yes.

It's good.

Not a good look.

It's not a great look on your lappy top.

You come back and the British Transport Police are waiting for you.

Yes, because

you've published a pornographic publication.

Absolutely.

Go on.

Okay, well we begin with the elephant in the room.

This very shirt that I'm wearing.

Which I like and I've already told you I like it.

Dave has already told me he liked it.

Izzy has already told me she likes it.

Zoff has already told me they like it.

This shirt is winning hearts and minds.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

This shirt, does it look like a liar?

Does the shirt look like a liar?

Does it look like it would betray you?

Oh, is it an extra large or something?

Does it look like a Judas shirt?

No.

That's what I thought.

I got an email from a company that I have frequented once or twice.

The email said, we don't do sales very often.

And I thought I think I might have got this email.

You have piqued my interest.

They saw you coming.

I am going to proceed with the,

you know, Toddler Watson or Sherlock Holmes investigative hat on.

But I will click on that link actually.

I browsed.

I compared and contrasted.

I selected my shirt.

97 quid down to 57.

Yes, please.

It's almost 50% off.

That's a significant.

It's a signific saving.

I think it's around 40%.

Yeah.

I measured myself up with the tape measure.

I compared to the size guide.

I mediumed.

You measured yourself up?

Yeah.

Well, at home.

Yeah, with a tape measure.

So,

I get an email to say the shirt has been ordered.

You then get into the world of getting 50 emails.

Unchucky packaging.

Oh, thank you, Boizard, for your order.

It's now being processed.

It's now in the post.

It's on its way.

It's in Germany.

Less letters from a wartime love.

Anyway.

Being at war.

And you're like, oh, God.

Yeah.

Your love's letter is in the post.

Your love's letter is in transit.

Track your love's letter.

Would you like another letter from your love?

Yeah, your love's letter will be delivered probably between 12 and 4.

Will you be in?

Looks like your love has left something in their basket.

Yeah, can you put your love's letter in our porch?

Anyway, I get the email saying the shirt is on its way.

I then get another email five minutes later.

What do you think the other email says?

Further reductions.

You are kidding me.

And they never do a sale.

Oh, they never do a sale.

And they never do a sale.

The shirt I've just bought,

I've obviously been the tipping point.

You have?

To take it down to like the last 10 or whatever.

It's now 47 quid.

Oh.

Do you know what you could do here?

I'm not that guy.

Are you not?

I'm not, even though I look and sound like that guy.

I don't act like that guy.

And everything you know about me would make you think I am that guy.

I cannot be asked.

Really?

Sending stuff back and ordering it again do you know what though is this clocked down as a loss or a win

well i really like the shirt and i did get 40 off but i could have got more than 50 off you see i think because you've got a nice shirt and you've made a saving anyway i would still class that as a win personally

what do you reckon personally i think it's a loss i think it's a loss i think it's one all maybe well i'm gonna put in the loss column his shirt lied to him yeah shirt betrayal shirt betrayal good

and then what's the win that you've got?

Well, the win is: I've got a nice shirt which is a decent Dizzy.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, decent, decent shirt.

Okay.

Decent shirt next to shirt betrayal.

Odd feature, isn't it?

Carry on.

Cas McCoombs away.

Cass Ultras.

Lovely stuff.

I saw Cas McCoombs last week, a rough trade East doing a stripped-down performance for which you get a free CD for £12.50.

Ticket in CD.

Yes, please.

Wow.

Just guitar, bass, and rhythm guitar.

Nice.

Yesterday, or day before yesterday, was Cas McCoombs away at Bush Hall with the lovely Robin, the lovely Ruth.

And nice memories of Bush Hall.

Nice memories of Bush Hall, because the last time we were there was for Ellis's wedding.

He played old songs and we knew them.

And other people didn't know them and we did nice and i knew one of the songs this is one of the best feelings at a live gig of a musician you really like is one song ends and they tune up their guitars yeah yeah they might even change the tuning yeah and he plays a little chord just to change the tuning and you know what song he's going before everyone else before everyone else he's going to play happy birthday no i said he's going to play sleeping volcanoes and robbie said yes, I think he is.

And then he did play Sleeping Volcanoes, and we liked it.

That's good.

And you meet him after?

No.

And then the final song he played was a very deep cut called Sacred Heart, which I played at Dancing with Dave to people's utter confusion.

Did you?

Yes.

And Robin and I knew it.

And we knew it straight away.

And we danced a bit.

Did you?

No, not really.

Like the chatter.

No.

We had him on the show, didn't we?

We did.

Yes.

It's Tobacco Doc.

He's not a chatter.

He he was grumpy he was

in east in east london he wasn't grumpy i just think he was

a bit guampoo a bit shy dope and i think maybe someone should have explained a godbam million listeners what were we why

maybe whack a smile on you darling have a bit of a chitter chatter pitter patter

why were we in tobacco dock bbc introducing oh yeah so there's a there was a day i think they still do it called bbc introducing where they had loads of bands on i saw catfish and the bottleman the night before yeah oh yes very similar to cass mccoon Seafish and the Bee Men.

And then Cass came on with someone else called Zuzu.

Do you remember Zuzu?

Yeah.

Yeah, she's from House.

Yeah.

Who's still doing very well for herself?

Yeah, yeah.

She was chatty.

She was chatty.

She was great.

She was great.

She knew how to play the game.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I welcome that.

Yeah.

So, yeah, two Cass gigs in the last week.

That's great.

And like a couple of months ago, on a John Mins again, you had such a bad experience at Earth in Hackney.

You said you were never going to go to a live gig ever again.

Well, you're back in the saddle.

You know, the little upstairs bit in Bush Hall.

Oh, yeah.

We were in there.

And you know what?

Because people, because there's a bar there and it is a little bit more chatty,

it's actually, it's like being on the quiet carriage.

It's better to be in the loud carriage than to be in the quiet carriage.

Getting annoyed at people being loud.

Because even though the quiet carriage is quiet,

because no one is capable of being quiet in Britain 2025, right?

It's better to actually be amongst hubbub

because it's almost like playing background white noise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you roll with the punches,

there's a bit of hubbub, but I'm still enjoying it.

Those new album does contain one of the saddest songs I've ever heard.

It makes me very sad, but it's also very good.

Ah, tough one.

It's called I Don't Dream About Trains.

Does he drive?

I think Robin thinks it's a...

Robin did a sub stack about it.

I think it's a reference to a Robin Hitchcock song.

It's very good.

My teeth whitening journey is not tax deductible.

Oh,

no.

A crisis meeting with my accountant, who is also a volunteer Coast Guard, went long into the night.

Because I suppose you

just use your teeth exclusively.

It's not wholly an exclusive.

It's not wholly an exclusive.

Well, even though I wouldn't have gone on a teeth whitening journey if I wasn't public-facing.

That's true.

Yeah.

I.

So we

reached compromise.

Can you claim a proportion of it?

Well, that's what we're thinking of doing.

Okay.

Really?

Like, is this...

Are you?

A lady on OnlyFans.

Can you be bothered?

A lady on OnlyFans claimed for a boob job, and that stood up in court.

And I made reference to that a lot of times.

She was taken to court.

So she must have been investigated by HMRC.

No, she wasn't taken to court.

She took it to court that it was a legitimate business excuse.

How much is a boop job?

I don't know.

I could do it for 50 quid.

Yeah.

There could be side effects, and I can't guarantee you'll be infection-free.

I reckon it's got to be somewhere between 3 and 10 G.

Yeah, it's less than it used to be.

A bit like

hair replacement.

You know, that was extortion at the beginning, but I think because technology's moved on.

I'm making all the.

Yeah, they laser them in now.

Yeah, I'm making them.

I'm making them.

But who knows?

So anyway, we've reached a compromise that's pleased all parties.

Okay.

That's interesting.

Oh.

Because I wondered whether I could buy some clothes.

No.

But what if I said I'm only wearing them on tour?

What if I said if it's a uniform?

What if I said it's a uniform for

John?

There's one item involved in our show that you could legitimately claim is

stagewear.

John could legitimately claim the bespoke Freddie Mercury jacket.

And has.

Because if he'd worn that in his personal life,

it would have implied mental health crisis.

Yes.

Yeah, again.

Yeah.

It's got to be like,

I hate to use the phrase.

In fact, I don't.

I love it.

Solely and exclusively for the purposes of doing your job.

And a nice shirt is not that.

And I guess white teeth are not that.

No.

Yeah.

Because you had white teeth when we were eating our breakfast earlier on.

Yeah, that wasn't part of the show.

No, it wasn't.

Next up, boggle support is useless.

The actual in-app boggle technical support is a complete waste of time.

Everyone's time.

Why do you need that then?

Because there's a sound bug where it interrupts airplay functionality.

And sometimes the you watch an advert in boggle because it's full of adverts.

The advert plays loud, but then you lose the sound effects on your game.

And I don't score as well when I don't have the sound effects.

Because it goes things like, good job.

And whoa!

When you do a really long one.

Incredible!

It goes like that.

And you want that?

Yeah, I can't do it in silence.

Why not?

Because I feel like no one's enjoying it.

So I contact the...

There's a little...

contact us thing.

Obviously, it's an AI chatbot, fine.

I put in my problem.

I haven't even got a book to write.

I put in a description of the problem.

You're on the phone to boggle audio support.

It then says,

thank you for your question.

We'll be with you in 24 hours.

And then another automated thing pops up saying, tell us more about your problem.

And I've already told you about your problem.

And the little thing says, gameplay, technical help, privacy.

And you hit technical help and the whole thing crashes.

So you can't actually get to the point at which you're through to someone.

And I want, I think I might have to delete the app and re-download it, but I don't want to lose my boggle stats because I am imperious.

Can't you write them down?

What?

Can't you just write them down and then maybe get it framed?

I could screen grab them actually.

Yeah that's what I would do.

But then

it would go maybe go back to zero.

I don't think it would as long as you're signing in via the same account.

I think if you delete it and re-download it, it's just like updating the filter.

Can you not update the app?

I originally linked it to my Facebook and then I deleted all of my Facebook presence.

So I don't know where I stand legally with Boggle now.

Can you not just update the app?

Would that help?

There's no update for the app.

The app is up to date.

This sound problem has been a problem for ages.

But just no one's flagged it.

The amount of updates apps have these days, which is mad enough, and then when you do want one to update to squish some bugs, then they don't bloom and do it.

Well, you're losing at the minute, John.

Okay.

Three, two, three.

Distance PB running wise.

You've not smashed it again.

Yeah.

Have you?

18.1k.

Goodness me.

What's that in Miles miles out of curiosity?

I don't know.

14?

12?

12 miles?

Fair play to John.

That's half a marathon.

No, it's not.

Not far off.

It's almost half a marathon.

And I was wanted to do 20, but then my leggies got tired and I was running past my house.

It's just over 11 miles.

Yeah, great.

What do you do?

18.1?

18.1k.

I can't do eight.

Fair play.

I couldn't run for 11 miles.

That's impressive.

Well done.

Thank you.

You should be proud of that.

I am.

It is good.

I've not run that far in years.

Haven't you?

I've never run that far.

Runner's nipple.

Yeah.

Kicked in exactly on the 10k mark.

Did it.

Had not brought my body lube.

No.

So I had to take my top off.

Whilst you were running.

I ran topless through the fields.

So is that?

Did you?

Is that why people run topless?

Or is it, I always thought it was to show off.

To show up.

I think sometimes if it's if it's heat, like that, who's that American guy who's running along topless and turns to the camera and goes, you stay in this side because it's rain?

I pray for rain.

Oh, because it's so hot.

What's his name?

I can't remember.

I pray for rain.

I need to know now.

Go on, you carry on there.

So yeah, I ran topless through the woods.

That's a win?

Yeah.

And then I popped it back on as I ran through the town, but had to hold it away from my nipple.

That must have looked so sexy, though.

Yes.

Running through the woods, topless.

Especially with all the sweat and going blotchy and red.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I'm getting a flare-up of a bit of eczema on the chest from all the sweat.

Oh, no, I don't know.

I don't know.

If I saw you running toppers through a wood, I think to myself, hub-ba-hub-ba is what I think.

Hub-ba-bub-ba.

I don't know who said that.

Can't find him.

Cool.

What was that?

Yeah, distance PB.

David Goggins.

Oh, I was going to say the guy who was in

the Marines or something.

Yeah, he's double-R'd.

Oh, he has got his packs.

Great.

he's older than you think david gokins

he's 50.

sound only 50 dude i'd have said he was 50.

oh he looks good

he does look good there's hope for us all i don't think there is dave what that body we work in like six hours a day to get a body like that are you that he's not head of content at a digital audio company is he he's that's his job and a very valid point don't compare yourself to people who spend six hours a day

doing one day.

I saw one of those, I don't even follow him, I don't know why I get it, that body by Mark thing on Instagram where

he goes up to like rick ripped people in the street and says, What's your workout routine?

He goes up to this grumpy guy in New York, who's obviously in very good shape.

He says,

Hey, buddy, I go up to ripped people and I asked them what the routine is.

You're in great shape.

What do you do?

And he goes, I go to the gym six times a week.

And he goes, So, are you doing the gym lifting weights?

And he goes, Yes, that is what is in the gym.

There's a really nice one where he stops a like 70-year-old woman who looks really good on her way back from the gym.

She takes him back to her house and they have coffee in her kitchen.

She talks about how important exercise has been to her.

You're going to get stopped by body by Mark eventually.

I don't think

he doesn't go to Buckinghamshire, does he?

No, not really.

He's more in Manhattan.

Yeah.

Well, go on holiday to New York and just walk around.

Okay.

And eventually it will happen.

Okay.

Hey, there we go.

What are we on, on, Dave?

Three all.

And that feels about right.

Does it?

Yeah, it feels like

a war of a week where no one has won.

So three all.

I'll take three all.

Three all.

Yeah, well, it's real.

After the bombshell of Lou popping up last week, revealing that sometimes you're a big fat liar.

I'm not a big fat liar.

It's nice that you've become real again.

It's authentic.

I am real.

John is real.

Maybe Ellis's cognitive decline is catching.

Yeah.

I mean, it is definitely happening.

Great.

Okay.

And that's that.

More of them in a couple of wipes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's time to say goodbye, Dave, on that bombshell.

Thank you to Joel Domit.

Thank you so much, Joel.

And we wish you all successes at the NTAs and the next series of The Masked Singer.

And who knows?

Maybe one day it'll be me as a big courgette or something.

What would you sing?

Ooh, my name's John and I'm the best.

My own song, my own composition.

And what would you...

Cogette is a John Robbins rap.

Yeah, and you can dress as a rap.

No, I hate courgettes.

Ah, so you wouldn't want to be dressed.

A bit slimy.

Yeah, slimy.

It's so slimy.

Even

though it's a bit too foamy.

Aubergine, totally slimy.

Aubergine, you got to cook dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, slow.

Dead, dead, dead, dead, slow.

Otherwise, it's too slimy.

It's like roasted peppers are dead, dead, slimy as well.

Yeah,

tastes I don't like.

Truffle, courgette, agreed on truffle.

Green pepper,

polenta,

and I think that's probably it.

Like most flavours.

Yeah, yeah.

But I don't like slimy food, Dave.

Do you not?

No.

But I will eat it anyway because I don't like food going to waste.

My don't like pears because they're dead dead.

Dead slimy.

No, do you know what?

I totally agree with you on that.

Do you know what I would address as?

A framed picture of Adrian Childs.

That would be good.

It's a bit of a giveaway, though, isn't it?

Well, it's a red herring because people think it's Adrian Chiles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No.

No one ever goes onto the Mars Singer dressed in a framed picture of themselves.

No, what about a framed picture of, I don't know, Starry Night by Van Gogh?

You could be a framed picture of Freddy Mercury because there's so many Queen fans.

I don't know.

That's a bit on the nose.

It is a bit on the nose.

I think it's less on the nose than Adrian Chiles.

Because it's either going to be me, Matt Lucas, or that other chap.

Bruce Thomas.

Bruce Thomas, or Al Murray, and they'll know from the stature.

Yeah.

Yeah, that it could be Matt.

It could be Al, though.

Yeah, it could be.

I think he's a bit taller than me, maybe.

You could go dressed as the Edinburgh Comedy Award.

That's a bit of you.

That would be odd.

No, you feel

I wouldn't like that.

No, it's because it's 1981, so it could be anyone, couldn't it?

Yes.

I mean, it could be Hugh Laurie.

There we go.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

See you on Sunday.

Send your shame wells and your mad dads to ellisandjohn at bbc.co.uk because we are running.

The well is running dry.

The well is a little dry.

I mean, maybe no one feels shame anymore, in which case, great.

But we'll have to come up with a new feature.

And all we've got on our ideas list is Health Podcast.

Although I do like some of the mad dads, but do keep them coming, please.

Ellisandjohn at bbc.co.uk.

Oh,

ask us anything, we'd do again, wouldn't we?

If the right questions came, we'd quite enjoy doing it.

Rosie's idea.

Rosie

suggested a feature, which we did, and the jingle did it.

We did, because the jingle was memorable, if I recall.

When was that?

About four weeks ago.

Huh.

Because it was to ask us the kind of question

that's always bothered you that we haven't given the answer to on this podcast in the past.

Rosie asked.

It'll just be a thousand emails saying what car is Ellis buying that John doesn't like and who does Ellis hate.

Which I'm more than happy to circumnavigate.

No, no, no, there'll be plenty more.

Sending you Q's, we'll give you some A's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Great.

Bye.

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Sucks!

The new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We the man to be honest!

Winner, best score!

We the man to be seen.

Winner, best book.

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs!

Playing the Orpheum Theater October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com.