This Is How to Stop Shrinking Who You Really Are | Brianna Weist | EP 101

Self-sabotage is you protecting yourself.

It's you meeting an unconscious need often that you don't know you have.

That reframe of going from, I'm sabotaging because I hate myself,

what if you're sabotaging because you love yourself?

It resets you to realizing you are on your own side.

If you can feel into the strength of your self-sabotage, the strength of that resistance, understand that that's actually the equivalent of the strength of your self-protection and self-love.

A lot of the time, we look for the big vision.

What am I going to be proud of?

What am I going to say I left behind?

But purpose is very often hiding in shadows and in what we transmute.

Instead of looking to what you love, try what you fear and go into the shadow aspect of it.

For the person who keeps postponing joy, what do you wish that they knew?

People defend their demons more than their potential.

This is all I've ever known and all I'll ever be.

Joy is not a reward.

It's a practice.

The more we practice it, the better we get at it.

The joy that you don't let yourself experience now, it does not have compounding interest.

If it's not experienced here now, it's done.

Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast.

Today we're exploring the patterns behind self-sabotage, why we hold ourselves back from the things we say we want, and how to create real clarity, confidence, and connection in our lives.

We also explore a surprising new way to look at purpose so that you can really discover yours, as well as how to trust the timing of when things unfold in your life.

Joining us is Brianna Wiest, the author of The Mountain is You, 101 Essays, The Pivot Year, and many many others.

Her writing is both depthful, but also filled with wisdom.

And her books have touched millions around the world.

It is such a gift to have her on the podcast today.

I'm so happy to have you here.

And I wanted just to dive right in talking about purpose because this is such a big topic for so many people trying to find their purpose.

And I know that

the more they try to look for their purpose, the further away they feel from it.

And looking back at your career, I'm curious, what were some of the challenges that initiated you into the writing that you're known for today?

So first, I love this topic.

And completely coincidentally, I'm finishing a book this week, literally this week, and it's coming out this fall that is on purpose.

That is the subject.

And it's something that has come up so often for me, but also everyone that I'm around and know.

It felt really pertinent to write about it.

And also this felt like the right time.

So I'm really glad we're starting with this.

So I really believe that purpose isn't to be found.

It's inherent to being alive.

So if you are alive, you are the essence of purpose.

It's one in the same.

And I think that the reason why when we go seeking it, it seems to elude us farther and farther is because it's not out there.

There is nothing to find.

It's not one job.

It's not one role.

It's not one thing we do.

And then that's it.

Our life has meaning.

It's just being here that's enough.

And the essence of who we are as human beings, just being alive, that is enough.

With that said, said, the other aspect of the book is that even though you can understand this logically, you can understand, sure, so I'm alive, so I have purpose.

That tends to exist apart from a sense that I think a lot of people have, which is that's all well and good, but I feel like I am meant to do something.

I feel like there's something I'm wanting or it's like an itch almost to create or accomplish with my time alive.

And it's past even the ego in a lot of cases where it's look, it's not even about the elevator speech.

It's really about like, what is my experience going to be?

Who am I going to be?

At the end of my life, when I'm looking back at all of this, what am I going to be proud of?

What am I going to say I left behind?

And when we go looking for purpose, I think a lot of the time we look for like a big vision.

So we try to find something really inspiring.

Like this is the title I want, or this is what I want to create, or we kind of go looking into the light for it.

But purpose is very often hiding in the shadows.

And purpose is very often in what we transmute and it's if you think about it just like from

like an entrepreneurial like business perspective what would you do if you were a business owner what do business owners do or inventors do they solve a problem that hasn't been solved yet and they find their purpose in answering a question that hasn't been answered yet and i think that for a lot of people where

You know, you're looking and you can't quite grasp the vision, instead of looking to what you love, try what you fear.

Look at what you fear.

What's the opposite or inverse of what you fear?

And go into the shadow aspect of it because it is all in the unconscious either way.

And when I started writing, it was really for me, it was just my own kind of like therapeutic practice, my own method of trying to organize my thoughts and become more coherent, become more stable.

And I say this all the time.

I'll say it forever.

You know, I was

the least emotionally intelligent person ever.

And the gift, though, was that because it took me an extra beat or two to understand things that I think came more naturally for people, if I didn't have that delay, if I didn't have that challenge, nothing would have prompted me to write about it in the first place.

And so the things that I thought were my weaknesses were actually my gifts in disguise.

I love that.

I love that because I'm even just thinking for myself, I have a learning disability in reading.

So my reading comprehension is low.

And one of the things that i really pour into is making sure that my students have a diverse learning style so that they can learn on in different ways kinesthetically experience on multiple levels and so looking at where our challenges are really support our purpose and the work that we're meant to be doing in the world i think that's a really beautiful frame and also that if we're only doing our purpose when we're quote unquote working then what are what else are we are we living on purpose for the rest of our life so instead of just looking i'm hearing you say to the big things of the light, also look at the shadow.

I think that's a really unique and beautiful perspective.

We're so tied into thinking purpose is work.

You know what I mean?

And look, your purpose can very much be your work or be a part of your work, but it's so much more than that.

I don't think that it really

stresses people out, guides them or feels right.

It's, you know, purpose to me is the person you become.

And then it's the way that person does everything.

That's the meaning of your life.

And yes, of course, that's how you do your work too, but you are, you are so much more than a title or some kind of accolade.

And I think that we often think that those are the things that will define us.

And that's what gives us purpose.

But I mean, you could just really ask anybody.

You accomplish something.

Well, do you feel like fulfilled?

I might be grateful for that, but no,

that fulfillment we seek is first, I think, the recognition of the very fact of me existing is me having purpose.

And then also, if there's something more I feel called or inspired to create, this is a whole different topic, but this is the book is about.

I think there's a lot of unconscious reasons why we sabotage really

the expression of kind of what's already inside us and is asking for a way out.

This is exactly where I want to go in the conversation.

I love your perspective on sabotage.

So can you share with, I very much align with it, can you share with us what that perspective is and some examples so people can kind of understand when it's showing up in their own life?

Self-sabotage is you protecting yourself.

It's you meeting an unconscious need often that you don't know you have.

And that reframe of going from, I'm sabotaging because I don't have enough willpower.

I'm sabotaging because I'm not strong enough.

I'm sabotaging because I'm not involved enough.

I'm sabotaging because I hate myself and reframing that, completely turning that on its head.

What if you're sabotaging because you love yourself, because you have an unseen, unmet need that the self-sabotaging act is satiating?

And actually you love yourself so much at some level, you will actually actually even go against your own ultimate best interests to make sure that you feel safe and okay when you start with that i think it resets you to realizing you are on your own side you are on your own side and you don't need to muscle your way through this there is a gentle more graceful way to to move through your life and so when you are self-sabotaging.

The first thing is that it's a discernment process and really only you will know if you are because it's like, it's not one action or behavior.

What is the self-sabotaging behavior for one person?

Maybe isn't for another.

And so that's a personal journey that each of us has to go on and ask ourselves, okay, I'm experiencing this pattern.

I'm experiencing this pattern of being stuck.

I'm experiencing this pattern in my relationships.

I'm experiencing this pattern in my finances.

And then the question becomes, what role?

am I willing to acknowledge that I am playing in this?

And if you find that role confuses you, where I talk to people all the time about this, it's crazy.

I work so hard to cross a certain threshold, you know, I get stable.

And then I'm so uncomfortable with that, I unknowingly topple it over.

And in my book, The Mountain Zoo, I talk about Gay Hendrix's book, The Big Leap, and in it, he talks about upper limits.

And your upper limit is your unconscious tolerance for feeling good.

And the way that I phrase that is anything

new,

no matter how good, is going to be uncomfortable until it's also familiar.

There's a really poignant saying, which is, you will always prefer a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

Those are not my words, but you are designed to seek and stay in that comfort.

And so this is where that inner work really starts coming in, where you start reflecting and also being able to organize and like think critically about your emotions and your feelings.

And that's how you start building emotional intelligence, which is is this my comfort zone well yes it is my comfort zone but is it a comfort zone that's supporting me or that's healthy for me or do i need to defy my own comfort for a period of time to re-establish a new comfort zone and something that's healthier for me do i need to relearn my habits and i think that

when we work on this it's kin to getting back into the driver's seat of our own lives.

And it's like, look, the roads may turn unexpectedly.

There might be storms you don't see coming.

But what matters is that you are in the driver's seat and you are building your confidence to handle what's ahead, not just hoping and praying nothing ever goes wrong, hoping and praying, well, I'll never be challenged again or I'll never mess up again.

It's like instead of that, it's developing that confidence of I have the tools, I have the wherewithal, and I have the presence to

face it and be strengthened by it and move through it.

And I think that that's a really powerful place to get to.

I think it's a lifelong journey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're going on it forever.

Yeah.

And it's a big reason why I started this podcast was to help people have the tools to navigate their life because that's so much more empowering than trying to stay in a small comfort zone and never take risks or follow our heart or risk getting hurt or failing.

And so having those tools do help.

And I love even the word self-sabotage sounds like there's judgment in it.

And when it's really, it's like, oh, it's a protection mechanism, then there's a softening.

There's more compassion.

It's like, oh, this is the part of me that was looking to take care of me.

It's like, oh, thank you.

You can thank the part.

Maybe it was an inefficient approach, but the intention was there.

So take the intention and upgrade the approach.

So it's, I think that.

Take the intention, upgrade the approach.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Call the episode that, that's perfect.

But also in that.

If you can feel into the strength of your self-sabotage, the strength of that resistance, understand that that's actually like this, I just got a chill.

That's actually the equivalent of the strength of your self-protection and self-love.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it just misguided.

And so honoring the intention and its strength so that then we can thank it because anything we resist, we're giving our energy to.

We're judging, we're stuck with it.

And so really thanking it and then.

honoring the strength and the resilience and then upgrading the approach, the physical way of hitting your two goals.

So maybe, for example, I want to grow my business, but I'm afraid of being seen, aka fear of being judged.

So thanking the part of you that is scared of being judged and creating safety for it while you take action on still growing your business, honoring whatever is true in your heart.

So these tools help us genuinely change moment to moment, but starting with our perspective, which I love.

There's like similarity in our work, but then you have a different perspective on it, which also helps make it feel well-rounded, which is really beautiful.

I love that you go from a different angle into the same place.

That was a good example as a business, too.

That exact dynamic, I feel like I hear come up for people a lot.

I want to do this thing.

I'm afraid to be seen or judged.

Yeah.

Or like, I was successful in the past, but I burnt out and I hurt my body, and I'll never want to be successful again because unconsciously they think that they need to hurt their body because that was the only way they knew.

Yeah.

And then in the moment of recognizing that, you're like, do you think there could be another way?

And the answer is, yeah.

And also, like, the reframe of, of, I know how much you want to feel safe and loved and held, but also, do you know that you could be seen and go out there and even be more safe and loved and held?

I think that success is safe

is a big thing for people.

And the more that we model it, like the more it kind of gives other people permission to kind of open up to anything that they want to do in their lives and to let go of that fear with a lot of unconscious narrative about even just

trying.

So forget

and getting just the success point.

I was just, and I'm sorry, we can get back on track in a second.

So just aside, I was just talking about this.

I just saw this like a few days ago.

It was like something about younger people being so afraid of being like cringe that they're afraid to try.

And that this is something really affecting.

like younger people which is like there's this fear of even being seen trying like period i was like that's

so not great.

Yeah, I also just think of the social media and how it's the highlight reel.

And so they don't see the like learning and the trying process that could really be damaging to then the mindset of keep going.

And it doesn't mean anything about you, maybe your performance, but not who you are.

And so, and there's real gifts in that.

And I really appreciate that you take some of the shadow work and find the light in it and you use it for your growth.

And

yeah, and I think when we have the perspectives of these things, we can immediately shift.

And so I love that you're even saying

you're being a model for actually, if you do share your gifts, there is a possibility of feeling even more safe, right?

We're connecting the value of what this part of you, the protection wants, and you being able to align with the goal that ultimately you also want.

But it's usually the becoming process, like your work says, who you become in the process, really helping you wake up to a bigger, a freer life, I should say, in the process.

That's what it's all about.

It's like the space between where you are and where you want to be is built from the person you become.

And I really believe that, which is like anything we embark on, anything we choose, anything we take on in this life, it's never about really actually getting to the end of it or, you know, what we get from it.

It's who we become through the process.

And

because we take that person with us everywhere through everything forever.

Like that is your greatest self-investment because you have it and no one can take it from you, really.

You know what I mean?

It's forever and it's with you always.

And that's also a good question I like to ask myself a lot, which is if I'm wondering about whether or not to do something, if I'm trying to make a choice, the question is, who would I become if I did this?

Who would I become if I didn't?

And I try to play with that and work with what would this make me?

What would this challenge me?

What would this open up?

What would this kind of make, you know, force me to do with my life?

And do I like that person?

Do I not love that person?

I actually said no over the years to like

a decent number of opportunities because I thought about that question.

And I thought, if I did this all of the time, would this make me?

And it didn't feel aligned with what is true to me or what I ultimately wanted to do with my life, even if the opportunities seemed so good from the outside.

Wow, I love that question.

That's a great way to feel into your own discernment and truth.

Is this aligned with where I'm wanting to become and how I'm wanting to develop myself and my life, my lifestyle?

I think of myself at like 90.

If I'm so lucky to get there, you know, who do I want to be at that point?

And what do I want?

If, you know, if I'm at the very end of this thing and I'm looking back and I'm like, you know,

I feel like I've done a lot of work on that.

I have this kind of clear, very calm, almost kind of like North Star guiding me, which is that is what I'm trying to get to.

And so I can kind of hold everything up to that, which is, does that

bring me closer to that long gray-haired lady that's very at peace?

Yeah.

And you'll use everything that comes up in life to help you align with it regardless.

I really hear you're saying like the power is in you.

And this can help make some decisions to stay in alignment with that North Star.

It's beautiful.

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I know that people often resist the things that they say that they want.

In your opinion, what have you seen drives that and what helps them break free of that?

It's almost like when you love something so much, you want to clasp your hands around it so tightly.

It's another expression of your love for it, your protection for it.

It's like, okay, this is the best way I can explain it.

When I was like a child, like being a writer was not like my aspiration.

It wasn't like my dream, really.

It's something I kind of found later in life.

Because it wasn't that thing that was so close to my heart, I didn't, I wasn't so precious about it.

And it's helped me tremendously because I've had a degree of detachment.

where I give myself to it and I could be vulnerable and I'm not grappling all of the time with this like profound existential fear of like, you know, did I live up to meeting my own expectations of myself?

Did I fulfill what my younger self wanted

for me?

And that

little bit of detachment, even though writing is one of the great loves of my life and I've probably given more of myself to it than like most other things, when we are holding it so tightly and when we care so much, I think it stops us from being able to show up completely because we are fearful of anything going wrong that we almost don't even give ourselves a chance to have it at all.

And oh, I was just speaking to someone yesterday who was talking about this.

I was like, I had all these dreams when I was younger.

I completely let them go, completely let them go.

They all came back around in my later adult life in all these new forms.

And

it was really only after I let go a little bit.

It's like when I was holding so tightly, it's almost like I couldn't bring it in because I was holding it with a closed fist.

I couldn't, I couldn't breathe.

It couldn't grow.

It couldn't exist.

So I think that, again, it's recognizing like the intention is beautiful in some ways.

You love this thing so much, you want to make sure it's okay.

It's kind of like a child.

Do you know what I mean?

Like you love it so much, you want to just make sure it's okay.

And it's also, especially if it's a creative thing.

too, I want to say, I feel like you're like, that's so personal where you're like, and this happens all the time.

And I like find find beauty in it.

But I meet people all the time that are like, oh, I loved this book.

This is, you know, was my experience or what inspired me or what I took from it.

I'm always kind of mystified because I'm like, wow, I don't even know how you got that from that book.

I wasn't even thinking of those things at all.

But people have such varied experiences with it.

And it's also taught me a level of detachment where it's like, look, this is, I've tried to be as queer as I can.

This is my experience.

And then it's an inkblot test.

You know, all of art is.

It goes out in the world and people have their experience with it and again in that detachment it's like and that's that that that allows me to like kind of relax my shoulders and just like let things float through me then also i think the last part of this is it's not confusing yourself for the offering or what you're creating so it's not thinking you are it if you are an artist and you're making something if you think you are that thing every time it needs an edit every time it wants to evolve you're going to interpret that as personal.

Something's wrong with me.

I need to be fixed.

You are the creator of this thing.

It's in the same way that if you had a business and something wasn't working, you wouldn't necessarily take it personally.

Like what would make you the most effective business owner would be your ability to step back, evaluate what's not working, make a change, to make it work.

That's what makes you the business owner.

Okay, but now apply that to being an artist, apply that to being a person.

You know what I mean?

It's about, can you detach a little bit, take a step back, figure out what needs to shift and realize that it says more about you that you're willing and able to recognize that and move it through than the fact that there was ever a flaw in the first place, right?

Yeah, I think this is a huge thing that holds people back both creatively, but also in business is the identity piece, because anything we're identified with is super hard to change.

And so I see a lot of entrepreneurs that I coach where their business is doing well and they're doing well.

Their business isn't doing well and then they're not doing well.

And so it's about stepping back to see, to notice it's, I am separate than what I do.

I'm what sees the ups and downs.

I'm prior to that.

And so it's a spiritual invitation to really wake up.

That's interesting with your clients.

It's like if they're personally not doing well, you notice the business follows the same.

If they don't do the inner work, that's why I'm such a fan of doing the inner work.

And it's the same what you're speaking to creatively.

It's like it doesn't have space to breathe.

and then you're so caught up and then you don't have innovative resourceful solutions that come forward because you're identified and then going down a spiral so but that spiral and that could be the mud right for the lotus flower for some kind of offering to come from it if we use it and so there's nothing that is bad it's just having the tools to be able to say okay whatever's hurting me can free me if I look deeper to say what were the thoughts what are the identities that I'm buying into and I think life's beautifully designed that way so that if we're in pain we can use it as an alarm clock to wake up what's what am i telling myself in this moment and is it actually even true so that we can come back to who we are beyond any identity of the business and like also that helps open the detachment like you're speaking of which is really helpful for it to breathe like you're saying for it to come to you you're not resisting or pushing it away by clinging and needing to happen That was so beautifully said.

There's so much alignment.

It's so fun to talk with somebody that thinks of things the same way, but or goes to the same place at the end, but comes at it from a totally different perspective.

And I would love to hear your thoughts on this because I know people will say things like, that's not me, or that's always been the way that I am as a protection because they're scared.

I'm curious from your point of view, what helps them break through that?

and really open to something new.

Yes, I hear that all of the time.

If you think that you are your most consistent patterning of your past, you will never be free of it.

You will never move on.

You will carry whatever happened into the present and then into the future.

And I think it's about, again, being able to differentiate what is a pattern, what was a response,

what was an adaptation that I developed versus what is me.

And then I think that there's also another element here, which is sometimes when we ask ourselves, who am I?

When we're looking back to our past experiences, we start picking up on those patterns more than we really want or even need to.

And so sometimes I think a more powerful question can be, who do I want to be?

Not who am I, but who would I like to be?

What kind of person would I like to be?

So as opposed to saying, well, who am I?

And it's someone that is always scared to put themselves out there to speak up.

If you start over-identifying with that, then it just starts permeating everything.

And so it's like, if you could shift that a little into who would you like to be?

I would like to be someone who is confident and can speak clearly and communicate clearly and be more effective.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

And now when we have that like clarity in identity, you can kind of start reverse engineering it into what do I do today, this week, this month to make these things true?

What would a person who is confident and well-spoken and shows up for themselves?

What would they do today, tonight, this month?

And then the more you start doing that over time, it becomes this self-evident thing.

You build the proof to yourself where you're like, look, I've been operating in this way for so long.

And then you start becoming that, you know, thinking of someone in my life who was once very, very afraid of travel and definitely had this like identity piece of like, I don't travel.

I don't go new places.

I don't like that.

And they years ago had a handful of experiences where they got opportunities to travel, terrified and absolutely loved it.

And now, like if you speak to them now, like, I love to travel.

I've been to all these places.

Like, show you all their pictures.

And that shift that happened through experience, the fear that like alchemized and transmuted through having the experience of the opposite, even if at the beginning you are afraid.

So if fear is running the narrative and fear is dominating your identity at the beginning, well, I'm afraid of that.

It's like, okay, well, is that who you want to be for your whole life?

And if there's a little thing inside you, it's like, no,

you act in spite of yourself.

And I think very often either find, okay, actually not for me, then you can let it go.

But for most people, I think it's, I think a lot of where our fear is and our resistance is shielding like a very like rich part of our lives that can be accessed and opened up to, but we just don't know that that's the cue or the signal.

Because again, we're always looking just for what's my vision and inspiration.

Well, if you're very identified and you've had a ton of experience being a very fearful person, that vision is only going to be able to meet what you know yourself to be.

And so it's like to go beyond that, we kind of have to defy for a minute what we thought we might have been into what could we be?

What would we like to be?

And like open up from there.

I love that.

So it's what I'm hearing is not just jumping to more of an existential deeper truth.

It's kind of using the ego to upgrade a sense of self because there's a direct line of, well, I'm a fearful person.

It's like, well, where am I not a fearful person?

Maybe there are areas that believing that narrative blinds me to areas that I'm courageous and I do take risks.

So then we open the perspective and kind of feed into this new enhanced sense of self before waking up beyond it.

Yeah.

It's beautiful.

Yeah.

I'm curious what you would say to somebody who is still waiting for the right time or waiting for proof that it'll work out before they take the next step.

What would you say to them?

Well, I'm waiting for proof.

You're going to wait forever.

So let that one go.

But

for the timing piece, there's a difference between I'm afraid to take the step.

And by the way, whether I take it tomorrow or three months from now, I'm going to be afraid regardless.

So I just need to take it.

And

I at some level understand that I'm not taking the step because I'm not completely clear on where I'm headed yet.

They're two different things.

And I think it's important to understand where you are at.

And I think the way you differentiate is, are you very clear on what you're doing?

And also, if the answer is not yet, when you don't know what to do, you do nothing.

You do nothing.

For an hour, for a night, for a week, as much as you can buy yourself, you do nothing.

You do other things.

And And sometimes you even have to let go of the question.

You kind of have to just settle into, I don't know right now.

Okay.

Detach from that.

Go.

The answer will come.

And it's going to come not only when it's time for it to come, but also when you're kind of ready to receive it.

But I also think that, and I think about this a lot, actually,

timing.

Timing is one of the big things we don't control because a lot of what we're doing with our lives connects and coincides with other people's timing, both as individuals, but also like in like the collective.

I've had this experience really specifically with books where I've kind of had the intuitive knowing like it would reach people, you know, even if it came out this year, it would take this many years before, because that's kind of when people would be rounding the bent to date and maybe being interested in what I was saying.

And I kind of always sensed I was writing ahead of time.

You know, like I was kind of walking around a track and leaving like a little map at the beginning.

It's because like I'm like, I see you guys like you're going to be here.

I'll just run around really quick and this guy's used to you.

There you go.

But it's, it's in

not overriding that timing, but also honoring that timing.

Like if things are not happening as fast as you want them to or when you think they should, always remember, you tell life what and life tells you how.

And part of how is also when.

So you can stay very connected and keep getting clearer and more established on what,

but then also learn to surrender and be adaptable if life is saying, okay, I'm seeing the what.

The way that you're going about this is not reaching.

The way is not landing.

It's the way is not working.

Can you adapt the way while still holding the what?

I don't know if that makes sense.

And then also part of the way is the time.

If it's not right now, could it be in a year from now?

And could you be open to that?

And I think if you can be, I think life will surprise you beyond your wildest dreams.

I think that's going to settle so many people and just the angst of wanting it to happen and that deeper trust in the unfoldment of it and the timing of it.

But also that life will oftentimes, it does surprise us in the way that it shows up.

Like the form's not always what we think it's going to be.

And yet it will surprise us and give us something better than we thought it could have been if we surrender and trust it.

And the timing, we always think of it like, well, it's not happening fast enough or when I thought it's like, well, and then sometimes also it comes to your doorstep when you weren't maybe planning for it or expecting it.

And you're like, okay, it's here now.

We got to move.

You know what I mean?

So it can work both ways.

Show us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And just jump on it when it's aligned.

Yeah.

And I know you talk about the power of small, consistent steps.

What is one small step that you've seen be really helpful for people?

No matter what change you're trying to make, humble yourself to make it at such a small degree each day.

It almost feels dumb.

Like you almost feel like you should be beyond it.

Like if you want to drink more water, my challenge to you today is to take one sip.

One sip.

I'm not joking you.

And you're going to do it and be like, this is ridiculous.

Like when I, this is years ago, I, because I did this on myself and it worked.

It worked like nothing I'd ever done before.

But it's funny though, because I was trying to go back to the gym and I had a really hard time with this.

And so I had a membership and I would make this agreement with myself, which was, will you go to the gym for five minutes?

And

I would watch the clock.

I'd walk in for five minutes and walk out.

I went to the gym today.

And then I would be like, can you go walk in?

Can you walk on the treadmill for five minutes?

I would do that.

And then, you know, after a few days of going, I was like, all right, I can stay for like 10.

You know what I mean?

I got all the roles here.

Like I drove all the way here.

But then I was like, no, you said five, five, get out of here.

and it almost kind of inverted the sense of wait but i actually want to do more and

over time you really actually start reconditioning yourself to prefer this familiarity but it's the entry point because when you're going from i i don't go to the gym at all and then you're going to trying to do four workouts a week it's so overwhelming to your nervous system that you just resist the whole thing.

And I think that sometimes our ego gets in the way where it's like, well, I'm beyond just needing to go in and pick up one weight and put it down.

And it's like, but if you're struggling so much with like integrating a new habit or way of being into your life, then you're not, none of us are above something that small.

And I just want to say this to you, and then I'm sorry I'm rambling about it, but also like if you're a writer, write one sentence, right for 15 minutes, even if you're just junk journaling.

It's almost more important that you get out of your own way long enough to show up for yourself, even for a second.

and

you're going to like it.

You're going to like it.

And over time, you are.

Oh, you're going to crave it.

That's what I experienced.

Over time, like I feel weird if I don't write.

You know what I mean?

Like I don't, like I crave and desire that new comfort zone that I built out of these very, very tiny micro shifts.

Beautiful.

And it also builds trust in yourself that you are honoring your word.

You're going to do what you say you're going to do, which then gives you more of that dopamine hit and ability to keep going.

I know that a lot of people will edit themselves.

They will modify just to feel safe, to feel like they belong, and then lose sense of who they are.

And I'm just curious, in your experience, what's one of the most powerful things somebody can do to really come back to themselves, to start waking back up to their truth after they've forgotten who they are because they've done this for so long?

First, I think it's to realize that you can be your eccentric, weird, amazing self and will probably be more profoundly loved for it.

This really opened me up so much when I thought, are all of my friends exactly the same?

Oh my gosh, not even a little.

And it's almost the friends that have like quirks or like unique things about them that you almost come to love more when they're just being honest and it's just who they are.

And not only do you love them more, you get to see them more and have a better connection with them because you actually know them.

So to me, the first door was always realizing me being who I am doesn't get me less loved.

Actually, if I have courage, it will get me deeper connection, which is what I actually seek, what I actually desire.

And then also, I think

people have anxiety about, okay, well, I want to make all these changes in my life.

And so I'm just going to show up in front of all of the people around me.

And now I want to be this totally different person.

And what kind of tension is this going to cause?

What are they going to think about me?

I think sometimes just...

talking with people in your life, like, look, this is the journey I'm on.

Not that you have to be on it, but this is what I'm doing.

And I just wanted to let you know, almost brings them into the fold of your own growth and evolution.

They're like, I think 10 times out of 10, anyone who really loves you and cares about you would be like, hell yeah.

Yeah.

But I think it's that like almost a performance piece that gives people like a resistance where it's like, right, I have to show up perfect.

It's like you don't.

Exactly.

It's, and I think people are craving more authenticity now more than ever.

And I think that I love that you're like, actually, you can, it's a reflection of self, right?

As we learn to really accept all parts of ourselves, we feel more comfortable in our skin and we magnetize people to us.

And, you know, even the performative love, it's innocent.

You know, we don't have to judge that part of us that wants to be loved.

And I'm curious, when people are really looking for the world to give them something, connection, clarity, confidence, what would you say that they do first internally?

They give that thing that they're seeking first, always.

If you want more friendship, begin by reaching out and trying to be a friend.

If you want more love, begin by being more loving.

If you want more grace, begin by being more gracious.

If you want more opportunity, begin by showing up first.

I think a lot of the time, it's like all these things we desire and seek, the people we're wanting to be friends with, like they would want friends too.

The love that we're seeking, like,

also wants love.

The opportunities that would be right for us need us as much as we need or want them.

And sometimes when we just don't put ourselves out there at all, it's like these people don't know that we're even available or interested.

And I think that that's,

I feel like a lot of people can get stuck in these kind of like long valleys where they're waiting for other people to make the first move.

And I think a lot of the time life is waiting on you.

Life is waiting on you.

Yeah.

I always

want you to say, all right, let's go.

Let's go.

Yeah, life's a mirror.

So you smile in the mirror and life reflects it right back.

I love, I remember there's this one time I was judging the part of me that was looking to be accepted and I couldn't heal it away.

I couldn't or like to belong, to feel connected through acceptance.

And I couldn't.

fix it right quote unquote done all the work on it and then one day i just ran an experiment and i went out there was a concert in santa monica on the beach and i remember just running an experiment and saying i'm just going to give the very thing that i want which is acceptance And I was just shining it on one of my friends and he lit up.

And it was actually more enjoyable for me to give it than receive it.

And I had no idea.

But also in the giving of it, I realized I've always had it.

I didn't need it from someone else.

And so then I started giving it to the part of me that was looking to be accepted from others.

And I instantly felt better.

That's all it was looking for was my own acceptance and love.

And in that moment, as I gave it to me, I felt better.

And also when I gave it to somebody else, I felt better.

So just an experiment for people to run, you know, not to believe any of it, but to test it and see.

Test it and test it and see.

Also, the mirror thing, it just jogged a memory of when you're asking life for something, it's like asking the mirror to smile first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That visual, that idea helps me so much.

And I will, I swear to God, I think this to myself very often.

If I feel stuck, I'm like, okay, because you're asking the mirror to smile first.

And you're just looking at it like this.

Smile.

Yeah.

A lot of what i'm hearing is like the encouragement from your work is that the water is warm like it's safe just you know also having the tools and perspective to soften inside and to lean into our edges and to use the shadow or the mud as fertilization to for growth And I'm curious for the person who keeps postponing joy, because that, you know, sometimes I'll work with people and joy is hard for them to access in general.

But for the person that's postponing their joy, maybe thinking like, I'll be happy or fulfilled when I achieve more.

What do you wish that they knew?

The last chapter in the book that's coming out in the fall is called Great Callings.

The chapter is don't become a master gardener who does not know how to enjoy their own flowers.

And what it's about is the fact that joy is not a reward.

It's a practice.

The more we practice it, the better we get at it.

It's like a muscle.

Creativity is the same way, actually.

Like we kind of think it's going to come through a flash like a lightning strike, but it's a muscle that strengthens with use.

And the more we practice gratitude, the more we practice joy, the more we practice happiness, the more and more of it that we have.

We think of it like this finite resource of like, well, I'm going to have 15 moments of joy in my life.

Okay, well, I don't want to waste them now.

I'm going to save some for later.

There's a beautiful Annie Dillard quote about writing that I love so much that she says, nope, it's advice for writers, but it's really to anyone.

It's really about, it's not even about writing, it's really about life, which is give it all, give it now.

More will arise for later water.

And if you withhold, you will open your safe and find ashes.

And

I like to think of that all the time too.

Don't open your safe and find ashes.

The joy that you don't let yourself experience now, it does not have compounding interest.

Okay, it doesn't have any interest at all.

If it's not experienced here now, it's done.

It's either accessed in this moment or you move on.

And I think the way that we're trained to think about joy is as something you earn.

Okay, well, once I do X, Y, and Z, then I can be happy.

You know, once I'm good enough, I can

be happy.

And it's like, I think that joy is that wellspring that's in every single one of us.

And it's there, whether we are at the mountaintop or in the pits of the valley.

And that you don't need to be more or better to let yourself experience it.

And that you don't have to have guilt for happiness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's, there's so many things that just opened in my mind that I want to speak to.

The guilt being one of them, because sometimes people feel an unconscious loyalty to their lineage for, and they don't want to be more happy or joyful because they think that they won't belong or they think they'll hurt people with their joy.

Or there's a set point, right?

Our comfort zone, upper limits and lower limits.

That comfort zone is like, I'm going to stay here.

And so just to point to that, that that is something that with unconscious work,

you really want to slow it down to really listen to what your own wisdom is in your own, with your programming so that you can see it, bring it to conscious awareness.

But there is sometimes loyalty and then we feel guilty if we're happy.

And sometimes just the contrast of allowing ourselves to be happy will highlight some of the guilt so that then you can work it.

Cause once you see it, it's a lot easier to work with it.

But even what you were talking about, the gratitude, really being able to develop that, one of the things that I've done that's recently shifted my

pattern that I wasn't able to change for a while is bringing gratitude for the challenges.

So really starting to see the gifts in the challenges and sharing and like really feeling that gratitude.

And then the last thing that sparked inspiration that you shared was around like give it fully.

There's something about that.

I remember when I was designing my certification program, I run a school for coaches.

And I remember feeling into a part where I was like, am I going to give it all?

I'm like, yeah, I'm going to give it all.

And the giving of it all felt like a level of abundance that I hadn't surpassed.

Like I, I didn't hold anything back.

I gave it all.

And I'm the rewards of that keep coming back to me tenfold because of the giving.

And so, like that quote, it does keep coming.

It's just moving through that scarcity.

And the giving is the receiving, like you're saying.

It's that mirror.

It's that, yeah.

So so many things that came from what you just shared.

The more you allow it into the moment, it's almost like the wider your bandwidth goes.

So it's like, actually, the more joy you let yourself have now, it's not like a zero sum game where it's going to like counterbalance itself.

It's like the more you practice having a container for this much, you get comfortable with this and then you're able to keep, keep expanding it.

And joy is also to me synonymous with flow.

It's synonymous with meaning.

It's synonymous with inspiration.

And so I think sometimes we think of joy as like a step, like a, not stagnant, but just like, oh, I feel good.

And it's like, but that good feeling is also like expressive and productive in its own ways.

Like it extends outward.

It's not just something that you get.

It's ultimately something like, that's your highest gift.

Yeah.

And that it's of service to everybody else also.

It's of service to you.

And that joy wants out.

It wants to, you're saying give, express.

And so that's the ripple effect by allowing it.

So just for that unconscious part that is.

maybe being loyal to their lineage of thinking, oh, I need to, I can't be that happy or I can't, things can't be that good or whatever the narrative was, like rich people are mean or whatever the story was it's like you can break free of those and actually it's a gift to the world to do that and that what you're saying also reminded me of something that I talk about all the time which is people defend their demons more than their potential they do it all of the time like they defend their limitations yes yes like if they're like I'm stuck and I'm unhappy And they're seeking counsel for that.

It's like, okay, well, let's find another way forward.

This, there's this strange instinct that will be like, well, there's no way forward.

This is all I've ever known and all I'll ever be.

And in that moment, to me, it's like, there's this awareness of, why are you fighting?

Fight for your hope.

Do you know what I mean?

Protect your hope.

You know what I mean?

Protect that little spark that's still inside you.

Fight for that.

Like find ways that that could be more true.

It's so much conditioning that even we do to ourselves, but it's like the gratitude thing.

I was teaching a class like two weekends ago.

And it's funny what what comes that it was a long weekend and like it's always funny because like the things that i plan sometimes other things like come up and that becomes kind of the big takeaway of the weekend and i remember so many people when we were you know kind of doing our final thoughts said that ironic but of course not so much alignment that one of their biggest takeaways was we were talking about when we hit a wall right we have that that

that panicky feeling comes up the challenge is here we don't know what to do next the moment where we would normally shrink or withdraw we say thank you just three times.

And I mean, like four or five people said that that was their like, that was the big thing that they were taking with them.

And I think that you just elaborated on that so perfectly, which was why that felt so powerful, which is instead of seeing it as dead end, you see it as the detour that's leading you back in the right direction.

Thank you so much.

I'm going to.

extract from this what I need to know and I'm going to keep going.

This isn't to stop me.

This is to continue to guide me.

But again, I have to know how to drive the car.

I need that inner, I need that inner capacity to understand what this is trying to tell me, because if I don't have that, it's just going to seem like a wall.

And I think that's like, I mean, I'm sure you feel this way all the time, which is like, when we were young, nobody talked about anything like that.

I know, I know.

This is a big part of why the podcast and also just, cause again, like the tools are everything.

But a powerful question for somebody that they can ask themselves is like, what do I fear would happen if I let this go?

So that you can find the unconscious payoff from it.

And there's like competing desires, like the foot on the gas, foot on the break.

There's lots of different ways to look at some of this work, but it's so helpful to see it, to know it.

Then it's like, oh, that's all that's happening.

And then I can genuinely thank that part because it was trying to protect me.

And then I don't give my energy to it.

And I'm more conscious and available to be resourceful and creative moving forward.

What are some of the quiet thoughts and quiet moments that tell us it's time to let something go?

And then how can they consciously make space for what's new?

I think that,

okay, what I want to say is this: something I noticed, I bet you do too, is things tend to happen in waves.

So, if I'm like doing a bunch of like book signings or I'm traveling in a meeting, people will tell me similar stories or experiences all at the same time, and it'll almost go in groups.

And these are people that are strangers from different parts of the country, some different parts of the world, and are having these incredibly similar experiences.

And earlier this year, I can't tell you how many people I was on my book tour for the life that's waiting were saying to me something to the effect, and it was almost the exact same story over and over again, which was something in my life came apart at the seams.

The rug was pulled out from under me.

And initially, I thought I was in free fall.

I was like, this is my worst fear.

And shortly after that, I had this kind of epiphany, which was, if it was a job that I lost, it's like they woke up one day and thought I really hated that job.

And I heard the story about different things, but the same dynamic over and over again, which was life was whispering and I did not listen.

And when I didn't listen, I deprived myself of the opportunity to make a plan, to make a strategy, to have a graceful exit and to start a beautiful new beginning.

And it got louder and louder.

And then it was kind of screaming and then it went out from under me.

But if I'm honest with myself, I kind of knew it.

And in those that quiet knowing, that was kind of me and my life giving me a chance to like build out for what's next.

And I think that part of doing the inner work is also being able to listen to the whisper while it's still a whisper,

to listen to the cues before life is up-leveled.

And it's when you're so dysregulated like that,

it becomes much more challenging to envision your next job.

How do I move forward from this versus, okay, I'm knowing something's not working, you know, while I'm still at this job, whatever it is, what, what is my strategy for it?

How much more graceful and supportive to you that transition can

be.

So I think that it's being honest with yourself, but also

Letting go doesn't always just mean like that job has to go or that person has to go or that place has to go.

It can also mean like my relationship to this thing might have to change.

It's not that even the thing itself has to change, but it's like my relationship to it has to

transform in some way.

And I think it's just knowing that there's, I think a lot of the time when you're feeling like you're outgrowing things or things aren't working the way they once were, it's also a sign of your own growth.

It's also a sign that you're evolving and you're changing and, you know, you're, you're finding new aspects of yourself.

You're needing things in different ways.

And that's also something to celebrate in a way, but that also your life is meant to be in support of you.

You are not in service to it.

You know, your home, your job, these things are here to support you and your experience.

And I think to have a healthy relationship with them, they need to be kind of on the ground in support of you, not above you, where you feel like you're constantly reaching and not good enough or not deserving enough for them.

Because I think it kind of moves things out of balance.

So to answer your question, listen to that little whisper of, because I don't think it starts as you need to look at, it's, I think it starts as something isn't quite working.

Can you sit down and really start to unpack and get really clear on what that is?

Cause I think a lot of time people even sometimes know.

It's like, I'm, I don't like this job.

Well, what about it?

Yeah.

Instead of all or nothing.

Yeah.

And I love what you're saying of upgrading the pattern, because sometimes when people aren't clear, they will just think it's the person or the job when really it was the way that they were being within it.

And so as we upgrade the pattern, then the relationship or the job may actually be a great fit because it was just the pattern that was no longer in alignment and then you'll find out afterwards if you've shifted it yeah and if you write if you if it is your relationship and patterning with the thing you'll know because you'll go to the next job and it'll be the same thing again yeah just like the relationship yeah

it's not it sometimes it's not work it's your relationship to work that's right like that that that has to be developed and then

you can change your job whenever Until you change the way you show up and relate to it, it's going to repeat itself.

It's kind of, it's the wherever you go, there you are kind of thing.

Yeah.

And for people that have really just discovered that they've outgrown an old version of themselves, I know that there's some confusion and grief that comes with that process.

What would you say to people that are navigating that?

It's okay.

to grieve the loss of that self like you're losing someone in your life, like you're actually losing a friend or like a loved one i think the grief is confusing because it's like but i'm so done with this version of myself why am i sad you know this person becoming is so much better why am i so upset you know it's almost like you can't understand the grief but i think that throughout our lives we the death and rebirth process happens pretty continually Like it's not just something that happens more born than literally die.

It's this constant phasing through of, you know, as we evolves, we have to let go of things, even things maybe we love or found so much joy in, we know that it's not for now, it's not for the future.

And I think it's, I really think it's just knowing, not only knowing that it's okay and normal to have grief about this, but also even kind of planning and making space for it, which is, look, I'm making a big transition in my life.

Instead of just expecting, well, I'm just going to be jumping up and down through the roof.

go in with the expectation of also some feelings of grief will probably come up.

And that is also okay.

And I can cry as much as I'm celebrating and just leaving space for that bandwidth of your experience rather than kind of shoving it in the closet and being like, well, you shouldn't be upset.

You should be blinkful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, let me know what happens in a few years when you're stopped.

I love that you're holding both equally, the celebration and the light and shadow.

And, you know, one of the shadows I saw of psychotherapy, because I used to be be a psychotherapist, is that we're always healing the past.

And one of the shadows I see of coaching is that we're always trying to become in the future when really we want to hold from presence and we want to, we want to do this work by honoring both equally, holding both.

One of the things that you've written about healing that I think is so beautiful is that sometimes it's more about remembering than becoming.

Can you talk to us more about what you mean by that?

Because I think it's going to be medicine for people.

First, I really love what you just said about the shadow of we're always trying to heal the past or the shadow of we're always trying to engineer the future, right?

And we're either like back here or up here.

And really, it's right here that the work actually is right in the middle.

I think that is really profound.

And I think everyone needs to hear that.

What was the question?

Again, I got so distracted.

That's okay.

I just love

what you write about, that sometimes healing is not about becoming, but it's about remembering.

And I would love for you to speak to that.

Okay, so the first thing is, to me, me, I think a lot of people have a perspective of healing is that it's kind of coming to this place of like perfection.

It's coming to this place of like, I'm never sad ever again.

I never have a hard time ever again.

And that's the goal, right?

Like I'm able to unpack my shadow so well that I can engineer a kind of utopic ideal of person and self and life.

And to me,

healing is actually being able to reopen the full bandwidth to have the entire range of human experience.

And so when you lose someone you love you cry and you grieve because that's what you would do like when that moment comes but then at the same time like

when you're having a breakthrough when you're practicing gratitude you are also able to like experience joy and excitement and you're not you know with you're not numbed out you're not withheld and your past experience neither your past experience nor your fear of potential future ones are keeping you from having all these experiences and building your life out from right now.

So

to start, that's what healing is to me.

It's like the reclaiming of our bandwidth.

But the remembering, the remembrance part, I think sometimes when we try to heal by building a new self, it's almost like we're putting a sense of self on top of ourselves over again.

Does that make sense?

I don't know if that makes sense.

It's like we're almost exchanging out one ego for another rather than like connecting to the true essence.

And to me, to me, the peak of healing is actually returning to coherency.

I love that word.

It's like my word of the year, gave me the decade.

It's a return to coherency.

It's a return to clarity.

It's a return to stillness.

And in that, like we start to identify just with the perspective and the one experiencing rather than the experience or what's being received by the experience or what other people are.

perceiving of us through the experience rather than just we're having the experience.

And I think it's just remembering that that's what you really came here to do.

Yeah.

And what you're speaking to is a level of maturity, of emotional maturity.

Not, I think some of us got into healing or spirituality as a way to opt out of the human experience.

And when you get further into the experiences of psychology and spirituality, it's more about opting in fully, like what you're saying, stretching the capacity to be with the range of our human experience and finding our center and truth through all of it.

And

there's so much alignment, Brianna.

It's tickling me how much there's how much alignment there is with our work, but from a different point of view.

And part of the work that I'll talk about is ego, kind of enhancing the sense of self until you wake up beyond it, which some of that, the deeper awakening, and you mentioned this of not to who you are, but to what you are.

There is no who.

It's a deeper expression of what.

And in that, then there's no more hamster wheel of trying, like being obsessed with the past and also being obsessed with the future.

It's just now.

And all of it can be used for that.

But But 100%,

that's the deeper gift and jewel in all of this.

I'm curious because you've written so much and you have such a body of wisdom.

If you were to leave people with one thing that you wanted them to know from your body of work, what would it be?

You're not alone.

Really, that's, I think that's the most important.

No matter what you're going through.

There is some human being on earth that has been through the same thing and actually probably many.

It is not just you.

You are not like uniquely and individually like broken or an outcast

or beyond repair.

You're not.

You're really not.

And you're also not alone and even feeling this way.

I think that would be the, if I could like distill everything down to just one sentence and people could really like hold it.

I think I would truly just say you're not alone.

It's beautiful.

Thank you, Brianna.

And I just feel so grateful for who you are and how you move through the world.

And I know my audience is going to want to stay connected.

Talk to us about where they find you, what you're up to, so that they can.

Find me on Instagram at Brianna Wiest, B-R-I-A-N-N-A-W-I-S-T.

And my books are linked there.

Yeah.

And you have a new one coming out.

Talk to us about that.

I do.

In the fall, it's called Great Callings, and it's all about purpose, but it's actually seven chapters about what interferes with us acting on our natural intuitive sense, excuse me, natural intuitive sense of purpose.

It's like a book about how to find purpose, but it's actually more a book about how to step out of your way so the purpose that's already in you can just express itself more, more easily.

Medicine for so many.

Thank you.

We'll put all the links here in the show notes below.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for your heart and what you're doing in the world.

Such a pleasure.

Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world starting with yourself.

It truly does make a difference.

And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost-free way to support us is by following us.

It does help us grow and we are so grateful.

Leave a review on Apple or Spotify.

Submit a screenshot of that and upload it to alyssamabrigat.com forward slash podcast.

As a thank you gift, we will be sending you one of the most powerful tools that you can use on any area of your life to help you tap into your full potential so that you don't let fear hold you back from really stepping into your dreams.

I have so much more magic I want to share with you and I cannot wait to do that soon.

But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart heart and mind in the world.