Put in the Work with Spike Lee

I have something called,

I don't have this dyslexia.

I have something else.

What is that?

The slip hit.

Should be slipping.

A new medical courage.

This episode is brought to you by Cologuard and Chase Home Lending.

Well, hello.

Craig Robinson.

Michelle Obama, how are you?

In my opinion, I am delighted to be here.

That's cute.

I am so happy to see you in your bright yellow.

Yeah, I got a little yellow.

I got a little sparkle going on.

It's like, yeah, I think, yeah, I felt like dressing up for our guests today.

Yeah.

But what's been going on with you?

Not much.

I've been, actually, I've been on the road with the kids for summer hoops.

So there's been a little bit more than usual, but

loving my time popping in to say hi to you and a couple of guests.

So really excited.

You know,

you're in quickly like I am traveling.

And

I'm staying at this Airbnb in Georgetown.

And

it's really neat.

But you know what's really neat other than being able to walk around the neighborhood and get a coffee or get something to eat and everything's in walking distance, even our dinner last night.

But

the host lives nearby and he was kind enough to come by and say hello and offer and give me a tour of the spot.

It was really neat.

And we've been so busy, I haven't been able to take him up on it.

But

I will do that the next time i'm here because i think i'll stay here again well that's kind of the um

that experience uh when we think about when we had brian cheske on who's the uh

founder and ceo of of airbnb it sounds like your experience is more along the lines of what how he initially envisioned the airbnb experience yeah you would actually stay in the home of someone um

and kind of get to know them.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

It's more communal.

More communal.

And I think this is the first time you've met the host.

This is.

This is.

And so you know what?

It feels less transactional.

You know, it was really, really nice.

And I would encourage owners to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, shout out to the Airbnb.

Airbnb host in Georgetown who is looking after my big brother.

Thank you for making him feel at home.

So we got, we got,

a good conversation planned for this episode.

We do.

We do.

This is not only going to be a good, this is going to be a fun conversation.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Spike Lee is an Academy Award-winning director, producer, writer, actor, and author who helped revolutionize modern black filmmaking.

He's a graduate of Morehouse College and New York University's Tisch School of Arts, where he is a tenured professor of film and artistic director.

His newest film is Highest to Lowest, streaming now on Apple TV Plus.

And you and I both got to

review it.

We get to talk to you.

So I can't wait to talk to him.

It's a great project.

Yeah.

So

without any further ado, Mr.

Spike Lee.

The one, the only

in the flesh.

On the

spike.

Sis.

Love you, sweetie.

Love you, love you.

Thank you for this.

No, we'll have so.

Thank you for.

Well, we concocted this visit just a couple of days ago.

Because

Spike and Tanya came over.

We were

having a little meal.

A little something, something, something.

A little something, something like we do in the vineyard.

Because I love Spike, but I love Tanya even more.

Probably, yeah, she

understand.

You should.

I understand.

You should understand because Tanya is is real, the real star.

She's

beautiful, smart.

You know, you start wondering, how'd you do that, Spike?

Tell her, you had some game back in the day.

Just many telling and time stopped.

Okay, all right.

So

tell us

the origin story.

I was in for the Congressional Black Caucus

weekend.

Okay.

And I was there to show

a couple scenes

from Malcolm X.

I had a date.

So as I was going to the restroom

and she was going to the restroom,

we saw each other.

Okay.

Where was your date?

She's not going to go to the middle with me.

You left her

in her chair.

Like, you wait here.

No, I said to go to the restroom.

So

we paused and looked at each other.

And so

I got up there and you know, gave a little speech and we showed the clip and people

love the film.

Denzel Washington's

Denzel is Malcolm.

Come on now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so

night went on and

I was looking for

Ty and the rest of the night, but it was time to go.

So

I'm going down the escalator

with my

date at night.

And she's going up the escalator.

So I said, I got to the bottom.

We looked at each other

when it was like this.

Truly ships passing.

Yeah, it wasn't

goo-goo eyes, nothing like that, but it was just a look.

So I got to the bottom of elevator on the escalator.

I said, you know what?

I forgot my monk blanc pen.

Oh, man.

You lied.

No, he acted.

He's an actor.

He's like, really?

This is a monk blanc.

You know, how much that pen cost my pen, bro?

I had that type of money.

And

we exchanged numbers.

and the rest is history, her history.

Okay, I never heard that story.

I like that story.

So, it's the truth.

So, now I got to get her version of it.

I'm going to do that when we get back to the vineyard.

Well, we can,

that's beautiful.

You, you, you, Spike is

my brother.

Uh,

we've gotten to know each other over the years,

over the years, and real getting to know, you know, because it's and and I don't like to say on behalf of uh Kai and and I, we're in the island and we get an invitation from

our peoples, our folks.

We're going,

yeah.

So, we concocted this

episode visit over dinner.

We were talking about the new film, which we'll get into.

Can I just jump real quick?

Please.

Can we talk about your first date?

Well, you know.

Because who hasn't heard about this person?

This is another reason, another thing that connects us,

the Obamas deeply to the Lee's and to Spike in particular.

When I see Barack, I say, good thing.

Good thing you made the film.

No, good thing you say we're going to see Driver's Daisy.

Done in the wrong mood.

Driver's Daisy.

It's like, excuse me, brother.

Excuse me.

Well, as the story goes

i wasn't real clear that it was appropriate for me to date my husband right because we worked in the same place right you know we probably want a handful of black folks um but he was persistent and he said you know who cares what these folks think you know we want to go out we should just give it a shot so i i uh acquiesced and he planned a beautiful day.

Didn't even know it was sort of one of those dates that go on and on.

Started with lovely time spent at the Art Institute.

You know, he was showing all his sides, you know, his cultural, artistic side.

He was bringing it, you know.

That's worth it.

You know, walking slowly as he, you know, noticed things in the Monet and this and the that.

And then we had lunch in the courtyard in the Art Institute.

And if you know Chicago, it's one magnificent mile.

So down Michigan Avenue from the Art Institute is on the south end.

We strolled all the way north, walking, talking all the way.

You know, the evening starts, the day is starting to unfold.

I'm starting to see new sides of him.

I'm starting to look at him a different way.

I think we had dinner at Lake Point Tower, which is further down, lovely sky view.

So nice restaurant, good food.

And then he says we should take in a movie, do the right thing.

Had just come out.

It was the first weekend.

And if anybody knows anything about Spike Spike Lee and his movies, you know, they were a happening.

They still are a happening.

And so

do the right thing was a thing you had to see.

And the fact that this brother was hip to the fact that we needed to see it on its opening night, it was impressive.

So we watched the movie.

It was phenomenal.

You know, controversial.

he did the right thing.

Throwing the garbage can through Sal's Savage Pizza River Window.

It's like,

but then after, because do the right thing is the kind of movie that after you watch it, you got to talk about it, you know?

I mean, now you find out, you know,

I found out his character, you know, did he see what I see?

Did he have the feelings that I felt?

Did he get what I got?

out of the movie.

So we talked for hours after the movie like everyone would would tend to do.

And I would would say that that date probably sealed the deal.

It wasn't driving his daisy.

Was not driving crazy.

The catty award winner.

Yes.

Best picture.

Yeah.

Driving.

Yeah.

No, that didn't do it.

It was Spike Lee's joint.

Thank you, Spike, for that.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Spike is like, I want to hear that story again.

That's the first time I ever heard it from my sister.

I read about it.

Oh,

but wasn't it last summer, the two summers ago, you gave us the sign,

the street sign,

you know, which was,

we got, this is,

you know, this is like, you know, fancy friends

because you gave us a do the right thing street sign from

Spike Lee.

It's in, it's in the house in the well, you know.

Thank you for that.

That was

Spike is a thoughtful person.

And now, I haven't known him as long as you have, but I will tell our audience that when we had dinner together at your house on the vineyard,

Spike found out from my wife that our two youngest kids, Austin and Aaron, were big Knicks fans and Spike Lee fans.

And the funny thing is, and everybody who's our age is going to laugh at this, they weren't old enough to watch your movies yet at that time.

And

he said, I hope not.

But then, you remember what you said?

He was like, they can watch Crooklin.

That's the one.

That's the one.

They can watch Crooklin.

That's it.

And he was as protective of them as we were.

And he made the movies.

That was what was funny.

But you, I don't know if you remember this, but you, and, and, well, I'm jumping around here.

The funny part is they only know you as a NYX super fan.

That was your claim to fame.

That was your claim to fame to them.

So when they heard they were coming over to dinner, they were excited.

So what does Spike do?

He takes a stroll with them in your backyard, about

75 yards down and back, and just talk.

And you can see Spike, one's on one side, one's on the other.

And who's doing all the talking?

Spike.

And then you see the guy saying something and you see, and we're all wondering what

those are those three talking about.

How old were they at that time?

So, that this was how many years ago?

Three years ago?

I don't know.

So, they were probably 12 and 10.

Is there 15 and 13 now?

Yeah, yeah,

they can see Crooklyn.

But they're almost at the point, thanks to Malia,

they go, she wants them to see some R-rated stuff.

So,

that wasn't me.

I know, I know it wasn't me.

They're older now.

They're older than that.

But my point is,

you are a generous soul because

and kids are very important to you.

I mean, anytime there are young people, you know, in our presence, Spike, you, I know you will go, you, you, you bird's eye to the young people.

Now, now, Tanya says that's because you are a big old kid yourself.

Oh, she's

she said more than that.

Spike, you are are crazy.

Man, I'm gonna get you out of trouble.

Spike, what is what's your favorite film that you have

made, or do you have a favorite?

I know you probably get this all the time, but we've never talked about this.

I'm gonna, if I could turn your question around, please.

This back to school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon.

You know, Misha, I've had such fond memories of our kids' first day of school, and I'm just thinking back to when we would get them ready and go shopping for school supplies and how excited they got over.

a new t-shirt.

I know, right, right.

A new pair of shorts.

A new pencils, all the excitement over decorating their lockers.

one of the things that i used to do in preparation for school because our summers in the white house got pretty exciting i mean it was usually when we did an international trip because the girls were away so summers were fun it was camp and I found that a couple years they weren't mentally ready to get back to school because they were having so much fun.

Right.

Right.

So I started employing a strategy that fun had to stop two weeks before school started man.

So that they would be no fun, no, nothing planned, just bored.

So that by the end of that two weeks, they would be begging me to go to school.

So

I learned that strategy because if it's fun up until the end, they're like, why would we want summer to stop?

That's tough.

And when we were growing up, we were always ready for school because summers would drag on forever.

Yeah, because even when we went to day camp, that ended in the end of July.

So August was like, you had dead.

you had to figure out your own plan.

Well, I tell you, these kids have

really been spoiled with vacations and all this great stuff.

But I really look forward to back to school and the excitement.

At our house now, it's more about

what day you get your haircut.

You got to get the fresh cut close enough to the start of school so that it's still fresh.

And for us this year, it's going to be a tough one because it's the weekend of Labor Day.

So we

those fresh, those fresh haircuts are going to be like four or five days old by the time they get to school.

And then there is just the back-to-school shopping, which I must say

cannot relate to because as first lady, it was very hard for me to do the back-to-school shopping with the motorcade and police and all of that.

I remember when we used to run around to a million different stores chasing down spiral notebooks, lunch boxes, calculators.

Now, with Amazon, everything you could ever need can be purchased from anywhere you are.

You can be on vacation, a sports field, and get all of it delivered fast right to your doorstep.

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And with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, you can spend less on your kids.

Who could ask for anything more?

People come, come up, total strangers come up to me.

More people say Crookman than any other film.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

You write them on Malcolm X.

It's just

that family.

Yeah.

That's the film people love.

And not just Black folks.

It's just that family.

Yeah.

And Delroy played my father.

And Alfie Woodhood played my mother.

And so my mother

had to be

the tough cop

because my father is like, Daddy, can you jump out the window?

Oh, yeah, go ahead, but just don't hurt yourself.

Yeah, so she was forced to be the cop.

And so

we grew up sometimes like not liking our mother

because she didn't let us do nothing.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I'm oldest of five.

We were crazy.

Yeah.

We were just wild Brooklyn kids.

And my mother had to be a disciplinarian because otherwise

it would not have been good.

And so I

feel bad.

Like we saw all of us on mothers as the bad,

the sheriff.

Yeah.

Because she wouldn't let us do nothing.

And so you mad at her and she's holding it down for everybody.

Holding it down.

Hold it down.

Yeah.

So that's, that's, uh, that's why I think people think Crooklyn, these total strangers just come to see us say, yeah, they name them all this as my favorite is

Crook and not just black folks too.

Did you always want to know that you wanted to go to be a filmmaker?

No, that came late.

I just went to the movies.

Yeah.

Well, we went to the movies.

I mean, this is

screaming.

And this is like the early 60s.

So

it's, you know, I tell you, when I say

film chose me, cinema chose me.

It wasn't, I didn't choose cinema.

How so?

Summer of 1977, one of the most infamous summers of

New York's history.

And I had a friend, her name is Vieta Johnson, smart.

Do you wish?

Did she go to Princess?

Yes.

Let me tell the story.

Let me tell the story.

Okay.

So Vietna and I grew up together.

Okay.

And

went to Stuyvesant.

Yeah, Stuyvesant High School.

Yeah.

Brooklyn Tech was on my block of my office as Stuyvesant in Science.

Yeah.

And so she was always smart.

And that summer,

New York City was broke.

There's a famous front page of daily news.

Ford, the city dropped dead.

That's President Ford.

So I came up for the summer, and there were no summer jobs.

So I wanted to come

make some money so I could.

have some fresh clothes going back to school in the fall

and that summer all we would do is play sports, you know, stick ball, stoop ball, stuff like that.

And this day changed my life.

It is no BS.

I went to see Vieta.

She lived in a universe house on the other side of Fort Green Park.

Rang the bell, said, come on up.

So she's studying for some tests, SAT, whatever it was.

So we're sitting in the...

In her living room, and there's a box.

This is a true story.

This day changed my life.

I said, what's in that box?

She said, oh, it's a Super 8 camera my father gave me.

I don't want it.

I said, what's in the other box?

It's a cartridge for the Super 8.

You can have it.

Wow.

Your father gave it to you.

He gave it to me, but

I'm going to be a doctor.

Right.

Yeah.

She was staying with some LSAT, whatever it was.

And so now I had something to do for the summer.

Wow.

Wow.

How old were you?

I was 17.

Oh, yeah.

You had to be, she had to be a junior.

20 years old.

I was 157.

So I had something to do.

So I spent the whole summer filming.

Wow.

And that summer was a summer blackout.

So when it happened, my followers drove me around to see my fellow Bahuikwas, Puerto Ricans, and my brothers and sisters looting.

I had it all driving cars, Cadillacs out through the wind.

I mean, so you're in the middle of the looting, catching it all.

So I come back to school for my junior year, and I declare my major, mass communications.

Morals didn't have that, but Clark is across the stage.

So I declare myself mass communications, mass communications, which is film, TV, print journalism, and radio.

Okay.

And this teacher

helped to, his name is still Dr.

Herb Eichelberger.

I told him about this footage I have.

He said, You should make a documentary.

He encouraged me on days where he didn't have to work, he would come in and open up the office, the center for film.

So I made this.

The film was called Last Hustle in Brooklyn, Homage to Last Hustle in Paris, Brando.

Anyway,

none of that stuff in that Brandon.

But

I made the film,

worked on it for a semester.

The spring semester, I showed my class,

and

I got a response.

So then in the day, I said, I'm going to be a filmmaker.

Wow.

Wow.

So I was focused.

Yeah.

Graduate Morehouse.

I want to go to film school.

I applied to the three best film schools.

USC,

AFI, American Film Institute.

Okay.

And NYU.

Okay.

At that time, to get into AFI

and USC, you had to get an astronomical score on a GRE.

I did not get the astronomical score.

In YU, all you had to do is submit a create a portfolio.

Oh, and you had your documentary.

Wow.

And I could, first of all, at that time, I didn't have my driver's license, so it would have been crazy being in LA.

But now I'm

typical New York.

I know, really.

That's how you thought.

It's like, I was like,

wait a minute, our driver's right.

Like, because Taylor said, I'm tired of

driving you around.

Yeah, you just barely get a trip, right?

We don't need a driver's license.

So

USC is out.

So

came to NYU.

Ain't Lee and Ernest Dickens from my class.

Ernest shot all my stuff.

He went.

Ang Lee was in your class, too.

Yeah.

Ernest from Howard.

So right away, Morris from Howard.

We were like, Yeah, yeah.

So Ernest shot all my stuff.

My thesis film was

a film called Joe's Bedside Bar, which we cut heads, won a Stuart Academy Award.

Then later, Ernest shot for me together.

She's going to have it.

Scoodes, Dude Right, they mobeta blues, Jungle Fever, and Malcolm X.

Wow.

Man.

So.

All because Vieta gave you her father's camera.

You know,

that was a dope.

That was not an accident.

So wait.

That was not some happenstance.

That was God.

I lost whatever you want to call it.

All right.

So crazy connection.

Vieta Johnson

was

one of my brother's first girlfriends at Princeton.

Did she run track then, too?

She ran back then.

She ran track?

Here's the thing.

I've never said this publicly.

Uh-huh.

Ever.

Hey, Vieta, by the way.

I've never even told Vietta that.

Uh-huh.

Oh, she doesn't know?

She never knew I liked her.

She was always like, You liked Vieta?

Everybody liked her.

I don't say everybody liked it.

Yeah.

I didn't like her.

I liked it.

You liked it.

You liked it.

I liked it.

Oh, that was Craig's girlfriend.

See, that's why y'all liked each other.

That's Rosie Brown.

I liked that.

I liked it.

That's crazy.

And then

what happened?

With Vieta,

trying to get in your business.

It didn't work out.

It didn't work out.

She dropped me.

But that's okay.

I met.

He was a younger.

He was a younger

kindred spirits.

I was too young for.

He was a freshman.

You know where she's from, right?

Yeah.

Where?

Brooklyn.

The People's Republic.

Well,

the People's Republic of Brooklyn.

That might have been a little week, you know.

Well, I'm glad we shared that because Vieta shouldn't know that.

I know she shouldn't know that story.

Yeah.

But I always think about that.

You know,

life go this way.

That's right.

You knocked on her door that day.

No,

ring the bell.

Sorry, yes, ring the bell.

If her father, yeah, did not give her that Super A camera,

I wouldn't be here.

You wouldn't be here, or if she was interested in

the camera herself, and she had become a doctor, so she was very clear.

Yes, yep.

I mean, life, I think about something.

I like that.

That's crazy.

That's like, God, damn.

That's crazy.

Well, it's a good thing you were good at it.

So, um,

you've had a

pretty, you know,

steady team throughout

your film career.

I mean, you see the credits, you know, you see your same crew, your photographer, your, you know,

is that your good luck charm?

Do you, you know, is that is that normal in filmmaking that you people have that those long, long relationships,

film after film?

Well, you know, that this

is relationships that can be filmed, sports teams.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, so

it's people that you're comfortable with and that you could flow with.

And people that, here's the important thing, that you could, you trust their opinions.

Yeah.

Am I right or wrong?

You're right.

Because it's something you work with some Mama Luke's.

You know, okay, Mama Luke.

Let's explain that for the people.

It's Italian American.

My family was the first family to move into Cobblehill because

I was born in Atlanta.

When we moved into Cobblehill, Brooklyn, it was stone.

We were the first black family.

And so I began to think about doing the right thing and jungle fever came from being a child

in a predominantly Italian American neighbor.

So Mama Luke.

Mama Luke.

It's not.

You don't want to be a Mama Luke.

So

when you trust someone,

you know they have

your best,

one of the best for you.

So they're not going to tell you some crazy stuff.

Now,

somebody's repenting you don't respect, you're not going to listen to them because you don't know where that's coming from.

Right, right.

And we all know

in this room.

In the room.

You've taken, in the world, you've taken some advice or something.

Yeah.

And then say, God,

yeah, yeah,

but when you're surrounded by

people want you to be the best you can be,

yeah, you trust them, yeah, and we've all seen

teams, guys, and getting along, and this and that, and like it comes on the court, yeah.

Now,

I was at game seven,

May 1970.

Which game is this?

Fill me in.

The Knicks First World Championship.

Okay.

That's the Los Angeles Lakers.

It's like, which game is this?

I'm talking about a team.

Coach Red Holtman.

Yes.

Starting five.

Okay.

Willis Reed.

Dave DeBusha.

All right.

Bill Bradley.

Dick Barnett recently passed away.

This was Will Fraser.

I even knew basketball existed, but thank you.

That's the team.

Off the bench, Cassie Russell.

Dave Stolworth, Mike Reardon.

I was at that game.

Okay.

My father's lawyer had season tickets, and he promised me there's a game seven that you can go.

And it's the Willis Reed game.

Willis Reed, game five, got hurt.

He didn't play game six.

And

I've been to Super Bowls, World Cups,

World Series.

I've never heard a noise, crowd noise.

It's loud when Willis, when he dragged his leg out, that noise.

The teams, both teams were doing their layup line.

The entire Laker team froze,

turned around, saw Willis Reed drag his leg.

Because what happened to his leg?

Well, he had hurt his leg in game five

and didn't come out to warm up with the rest of the team.

So the Lakers were thinking, okay, great.

Willis Reed's not playing game seven.

We're in good shape.

But he came out late.

Okay.

And I can't even imagine the sound of the crack.

The gardens.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, when it's passed,

we're the all-time greatest.

So this is one of your famous

sports analogies that gets us back to team.

Yeah.

See what I have to deal with here?

This is what I have to deal with.

Sports is in every.

You don't know what I mean.

I know that's what you think, Spike.

Sports and Craig.

Mahalo.

Everything is.

Jackie Robinson.

We don't want to it is, but then you got to know the game.

It's like, nah, it took me five minutes to figure out, well, what happened to his leg?

I want to say to listeners, please forgive me because

I have something called,

I don't have this dyslexia.

I have something else.

What is that?

The slip here.

Should be slipping.

Setting that up.

I'm generally good.

I can keep us on course, you know.

But the zero.

I mean,

shit.

But let's talk about highest to lowest.

Yes,

please.

When I was in film school,

In YU Graduate Film School, I was introduced to Japanese cinema.

vagina

our producer Dan is losing his mind that you even brought this up he's a cinephile nerd cinophile and a spike and we were just talking about well you do know that this was a Kurosawa Kurosawa and I'm like no I did not so he's so happy please

in film school

And while you're in graduate film school, you introduced a lot of international

cinema.

And

Rashamon really made an effect on me.

In this film,

there's a murder and a rape, and characters each speak on it.

In fact, that's where the term comes, Rashamon effect, where the same different people see the same thing.

So that gave that was a kernel for she's gotta have it.

Where

Noah's three-boyfriend and her

address

speak to the camera

and say what their stories are left to the audience

to feel

yeah

and this film is not a remake it's a reinterpretation of the great film by the great Japanese filmmaker Kirikosaur High and Low so we flipped this so it's our title is called highest to lowest but as a nod to prince we use the the number two instead of

what's going on.

I knew that when I was watching it, okay.

And

I'm blessed

to have worked with my brother Denzel Wash.

Yeah, he gives a performance.

We are blessed that you're working with your brother Denzel.

You know, as some of our listeners may have have seen, my brother-in-law, your husband, joined us on the show a few weeks back and had a interesting opinion that ketchup is just for kids.

But here at IMO, our opinion is that ketchup is for everyone.

And honestly, it has to be Heinz.

Mish, I would say that IMO is a pro-ketch-up podcast.

Without a doubt, we believe in ketchup here at IMO and in life in general.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, so but despite what my husband said, ketchup exists in our household everywhere.

Yeah.

What are some of the ways you guys use ketchup?

Well, you know, there's the basic potato french fry ketchup dip thing.

I mean, it's it's always there.

The girls, you know, before they eat, can even start their meal.

The question is always, where's the ketchup?

Yeah, especially with fries, because it's a rare fry that you can get away with just salt and pepper.

Yeah, and having a little bit of that tomatoey, rich flavor.

Vine ripen.

You know, and, you know, it gives it a little substance, you know, it's not dripping down your fry.

And then barbecues.

Yes, I was going to say grilling.

You have to have ketchup for your burger.

And I'm not.

even offended if I'm grilling and people put ketchup on their burger.

You can dip it or you can have it on there.

I'm not offended.

I'm not offended.

And I'm from Chicago.

I'm not offended if you put it on your hot dog.

You know, and that's a question.

Are you a poor or are you a dipper?

Because people have a certain opinion about ketchup.

Some people want one application.

Yeah.

Other people want a bite, a dip, a dip, a bite.

Do you have a preference?

My preference, it depends on what I'm eating.

So if I'm eating a hamburger,

I like to dip my hamburger into the ketchup.

Got it.

I love, because I want a bite of ketchup with my hamburger.

But if I have a brat or a Polish or I want to have it along the length of the brat.

I can picture that.

Oh, and that just reminds me, even though my kids aren't young, as a mother of little kids,

ketchup was an important source of vegetable intake.

Especially when it came to broccoli.

I mean, you know, look, you want your kids to get their vegetables in.

And let me tell you, ketchup is an excellent vegetable delivery system.

Absolutely.

We got a lot of broccoli down just with a little Heinz ketchup dip.

Made the girls happy.

I was happy.

The kids were happy.

Veggies were eaten.

Life goes on.

And at the end of the day,

it has to be Heinz.

And

it's kind of sad because this might be the last film that we're doing.

He's talked about retiring.

Every time I read the article, he's retiring.

He's doing another movie.

So who knows?

So I said today, I'm going to say,

I'm going to stop saying that this is my last film with Denzel.

Because you keep saying that, it's going to make it happen.

Yeah, that's right.

And Denzo, you know, he's, oh, that was Spike.

You know, I said it was, but you think it's so so yeah yeah denzo i'm gonna stop saying that okay

mobeta blues yeah malcolm x he got game inside man

and here's the crazy thing

both denzel and i did not know

18 years had gone past

between

inside man

and highest loss we both Just time just went.

Yeah.

I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought that either.

That 18 years.

We were shocked.

We were like, 18 years.

But because, you know, inside Mance feels fresh.

You know, I mean, it, it, you know, it's,

it, it's a standout.

I mean, it's, it's on the top of everyone's favorite spike movies.

So it feels like it just happened, you know, and you, and you haven't aged, not a, not a second.

Mine, right, except for your slipology or whatever it is.

But it has been

all jokes aside,

it's been a gift to work with Denzel

and

added, plus,

he has season tickets for the Lakers.

You are so

deep.

I got it right.

And then the way it is now, a lot of times,

what they're doing now is like

the stop teams doing travel.

The Knicks are playing the Clippers, like

so I know the owner.

Well, it sounds like you made the movie schedule around the basketball schedule, Spike, and I wouldn't be surprised.

Let me tell you this.

When we were rolling with

a game

and

the day, the night we're shooting,

people normally go home at five o'clock.

It's like early call.

They know

if we're shooting on a game day,

you are crazy.

You are crazy.

What's it?

What's it like to direct Denzel?

What makes that partnership special to you?

He knows what he's doing.

He knows what he wants.

He doesn't need 20 takes.

Yeah.

Wow.

But also,

he listens to notes.

Look.

He's not too big for that.

When you're great,

I'm not going to tell Denzel,

well, can you move a little?

I mean, look, if there's a note, I tell him.

Yeah.

But I'm not necessarily like,

let's do his thing.

Yeah.

Now, actors aren't at that level and not doing what I want to do.

Yeah.

That's a different story.

And Denzel,

people don't understand.

His provision is so great.

You think that

stuff is written

and it's on,

it's like right there.

Yeah.

And it's the perfect thing you needed,

but it's not in the script.

And when he gets an actor on his,

like

on a level, and they start going back on improv.

How was

it ASAP Rocky also?

ASAP.

I keep telling people.

Yeah, yeah.

His performance.

No, no, he showed up.

ASAP and Denzel, that's like a heavyweight fight.

Right, right.

It's not a heavyweight, lightweight.

Toe-to-toe.

Yeah.

And there's, and then,

yeah, had ASAP.

He's been in several films.

He's been in several films.

So this is not his first film,

he was fun to work.

Here's a thing.

Denzel is such a powerful

actor.

I've seen actors like

Wilt.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a lot to work against.

but

you've seen his work, you've seen

what he is, and then you're like, I'm gonna see what Denzel was.

Like, yeah, it's like being at practice with Jordan.

Come on, now, you know what I'm saying?

Oh, Lord, here we go.

More than a month.

This is not sports called radio, man.

Like, oh, my God.

Come on, yeah, yeah.

What's one of the Yankees now?

They say,

what else is now?

Hey, we've got 27 rings, so don't, don't, don't.

Okay, back to ASAP.

Oh, my God.

You too.

Exhaustive.

Exhausting.

I was just getting into hearing about ASAP.

No, well, back to that.

ASAP.

He was like.

Something else.

He was like, you know, it was like,

he's like, I got testicles too.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that scene with them in the uh, uh, the recording studio, yeah, in the recording studio.

I know, don't want to give it away for the listeners.

Um, and you know, what's great about that?

Denzel wants

because if he's in a scene

and he's killing the other person, like, yeah, that's killing the scene, yeah, yeah, yeah, he wants, yeah,

and then here's the thing,

even before

I was asked through this film, people have always said ASAP looks like Denzel's son.

Have you ever?

I've heard that.

I've heard that.

Have you seen that film again?

Now I have to look for it because I didn't notice it when we were watching the film.

People saying that to me

for years.

And so that adds another

layer.

Thank you for that word.

Yeah, yeah.

Another layer.

Because then,

on a subconscious level, this is a father's son thing.

It's father son, yeah.

So, yeah, layer upon layer, that just makes that list the whole

film up now.

In addition to Danielle, Denzel, I mean, you have you have given so many black actors

and so many actors, period, because

can't leave out

can't leave out Rosie.

Um,

uh, it's just been uh amazing how you've been so

so conscious about you know, especially with uh

Ozzie Davis, Ruby D.

I mean, you

and Queen, you know, kept a lot of really amazing actors in the zeitgeist, you know, so that generation you just made me think of something.

What's that?

Harry Belafonte.

My father played with Harry Belafonte, and every time he would see me spike,

do you have to use Ozzie Ericson?

Can't

Ozzy just let me get one.

And Ozzy's,

excuse me, and uh, I heard Mr.

Belafonte.

Yeah, you call him Mr.

Belafonte.

His last film was Black Clownsman.

He, you know, his health is not good.

So I didn't know till that morning where we'd come to the set.

So I had a backup.

We had stashed.

Wow,

you know, I'm not going to say it was, but

the hotel.

But I did not, I told the cast,

this day before, I said, when you come to work,

dress your Sunday best.

And have you ever been in a film set, man?

Like this.

We're bumming.

You know, you're uncomfortable.

Much like here.

No, I'm just kidding.

Anyway.

When the car rolled up, but everybody said, all right, he's coming.

Everybody was out there.

And when he got out of the car,

people lost their minds.

Wow, I can only imagine

for years.

He was saying, Spike, you had that,

and you've got it.

How does he get arrested for it?

You got him in for his last film.

You did, oh, that's great.

You did it.

Um,

but your latest film, uh,

you know, it

while there may not be a direct message, that last scene with um denzel and asap

there is a statement about uh

the industry um the music industry uh and sort of you know i don't want to give away a twist but there's a cynicism about the way

young people today use social media, how that affects the creative process.

Can you speak a little bit about how you you feel about sort of where things are, how filmmaking has changed, how the creative process is being impacted?

The thing that scares me

AI

with arts.

No, all right, AI for this and that, but when it comes to being

writing scripts,

TV shows, I'm not with that.

Yeah.

Because

I don't think, in my opinion,

you cannot

duplicate human beings.

My opinion.

Yeah.

And it would come a machine,

writing.

I'm thinking about AI music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Plays.

Books.

It's

call me old fashion.

Yeah, no, I don't.

I know, well, just for the audience.

Yeah, okay.

Sorry, my bad.

I just think that there's some things that are sacred as human beings

that

the arts.

I have a problem with that.

How's it?

How do you see it in the classroom?

Because you're still, you're teaching.

Yeah, but I don't have to write papers for that.

Okay.

But scripts?

Everyday scripts.

I can tell they're not.

You can tell.

Yeah,

but

come on, like, I don't have exams.

Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

But people, it's the students who are losing out

because they're not.

And we know, look, at this table, we all know.

And we learned this many, many times because we didn't get to where we are if it wasn't for that.

You got to put the work in.

That's right.

W-E-R-K.

See, just when I think.

I love this solo.

Just when I think, you know, it's just like.

You got to put the work in.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

You think you're getting over,

but you're cheating yourself.

That's right.

And as parents,

we've told our children.

No, you can't.

You can't.

Oh, here's another one.

You can't fake the funk.

That was that one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Spike,

I'm sorry.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yes, my sister.

Oh, yes.

I like that.

All right.

Why are you bowl guarding?

Yeah.

Why you violating?

It just might as well be the same.

It might as well be the same here as it is everywhere.

Go ahead, Your Highness.

Oh, now I forgot what I was going to ask.

All right, what are you going to ask?

I was just going to ask: what does it take

now

to get thoughtful,

original, brave

films made in PowerPoint?

Okay, that was close to what I was going to ask.

Oh, well,

all right.

So, it worked out, worked out for me anyway.

It's getting harder and harder.

Yeah, yeah,

because uh,

the powers that be

they're just

looking

at the bottom line

i know for

this personally there are fewer and fewer people in those positions

the gatekeepers yeah

that

are willing to

produce

different type of material

more challenging type of material and not

do what they think is a guaranteed thing.

But there's in this

nothing's guaranteed.

And

it's just tougher.

I mean, I have some friends that are in the music industry.

These labels are dropping people or

firing people

left and right.

So I think there's something that's not just the industry of film, but across the board.

People are just

everybody wants the same type.

You know, they want a category, they want to guarantee.

But the audience is there, but they're not.

That's the frustrating thing.

I mean, it's like, you know, you have conversations with some of the decision makers and they

swear that the audiences don't exist, you know, that the numbers bear it out, but that

can't be possible.

You know, that some of the

one could argue that some of the drop-in

box office is because there's just not enough variety.

It's the same thing.

Yeah, it's the same thing.

I mean, if I don't like action, if I don't like Marvel, and if that just doesn't happen to be my thing, right?

Well, what am I going to the movie for?

And then if you get, get out of the habit of going to the movie because you just assume, you know, there's nothing there for you.

Yeah, that's, that's the pattern.

But I want to see a little bit of everything.

You know, I want to see love stories.

I want to see all kinds of faces.

I want to see women leads.

I want to see stories about coming of age,

all of that.

And that's why the present universal pictures,

when I did

do the right thing, Tom Pollack,

when we were talking about,

oh, Hollywood doesn't

take the chance they used to, Tom Pollack is a hero to me.

He was, everybody in Hollywood told him not to make

do the right thing

that black folks would come out of the theater rioting.

There was tremendous, tremendous, tremendous pressure on him.

He just did a film called Last Temptation of Christ that Martin Square Spacey directed.

He had death threats

after that film.

He had to have

armed guards with him and his family.

And on top of that comes do the right thing.

Right.

Yeah.

It was courageous for him to go ahead and make do the right thing

at the last temptation of Christ.

Yeah.

Where him and his family was a potential danger.

potential danger.

And we had the world, we had the World Premier, the World Premier Do the Right think, was in Cannes.

And right then,

this one's caused riots.

I mean,

but he stood behind the film.

And I don't think there are too many people who are ahead of studios today

that would do that.

So I'm giving love to

my brother Tom because he

people within Universal's boss,

the industry

the press

they said this film

would

make black folks run amok

and he he thought otherwise yeah yeah but those very few of those people few and far between yeah

yeah

in the industry now like that yeah they did they exist um

But,

you know, the algorithm sometimes, it plays too big of a role.

Well, speaking of helping folks,

generational

assistance.

We

have a

thing here on IMO where we get a question from

one of our listeners.

And this happens to be from one of our listeners in DC.

Okay, right.

Tori from D.C.

has got a question for us.

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Hey, everyone, it's Craig Robinson, co-host of the IMO podcast with Michelle Obama.

And I wanted to take a minute to talk about something that I don't usually talk about, my garbage bin, the one in my kitchen.

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Hi, Michelle and Craig.

My name is Tori and I'm a 41-year-old paralegal in DC.

While I'm not able to have children, I've built a life focused on service, purpose, and growth.

From 2019 to 2020, my husband and I fostered refugee children, which deeply shaped how I view my role in the world.

I'm currently considering law school while also thinking about how to mentor and uplift others in the paralegal field.

My questions are, how do you decide which path will allow you to have the greatest impact, especially when you're torn between multiple good ones?

How do you cope with the feeling that you're not fully living up to your potential, even when you're doing meaningful work?

Like in other words, that's a humdinger.

That's a humdinger.

We've got

a humdinger.

It is.

It's a humdinger.

And we've talked about this before in other conversations, but I don't know when you talk to

your kids because our kids are all in their late 20s, early 30s-ish.

Seems like a lot of young people in that age group are struggling in that way.

They're wondering, you know,

should they be doing more?

Have they chosen the right path?

I find myself having conversations with young people about

having the patience to

sit with where you are and find the meaning with what you're doing at the moment.

All impact isn't big,

all meaningful impact isn't big.

Tori is fostering refugee kids and it sounds like there's a lot of stuff going on in Tori's life right now

where she's having a lot of impact, being a good neighbor, you know, having impact with the people who are right in your midst, the people you have responsibility for, that is big impact, you know?

And that to me is enough.

What is bigger than that?

What is bigger than that?

It feels like she's trying to figure out how to build a legacy.

And I just, you know, I like what you're saying about being patient, but I think she needs some direction.

And if I were to give her some direction, I would say to her, try

different things.

The right idea will eventually come to you.

But in the meantime, you're doing some wonderful things by fostering refugee kids.

And maybe the how-to is how do you, how does, maybe Tori is trying to figure out how does she explore different paths?

You know, I mean, you know, a lot of kids don't have networks.

A lot of young people, you know, you, you get into one profession and it's hard to figure out how to get to another or even explore.

I know when I was, um, came out of law school, thought I wanted to be a lawyer, worked at a big firm, did all those things, only to find out after two years, my feeling was like, no, this ain't it.

So how would I, how do I pivot?

How did I figure out how to pivot?

And it was something as simple as,

you know, I had to think about who I might want to be.

So there's some work that Tori has to do on her own.

I mean, she's got to kind of dig deep and ask herself questions.

Both of you this question:

I'm glad I was born out when I was born

to be

a kid today, yeah.

All this,

it's just seems like there are too many choices,

not just choices, but when you got choice, you got 500 channels to go on, you know, and just

yeah, it's just, I mean, I'm just no, it's march 21st day of spring 1957.

yeah yeah yeah because i know to say corny say it was simpler back then but it was just like yeah yeah too it's just like bananas i mean yeah good god and and and it and spike i don't know if you find this with the students you teach but i hear this in young athletes i hear it in young artists too.

Everybody wants to be impactful right away.

And

that's unrealistic.

It's unrealistic.

And it gets back to what you were saying when we were talking a little bit about filmmaking:

you got to put in the W-E-R-K.

Hold it right.

That was too good.

That was too good.

Leave me with the

stuff that's messed up.

Don't, don't, don't, don't.

You say we won't.

Stay we won't say romance.

But what do you, what do what are you telling your students when they come to you and they want to be Spike Lee right now rather than

me, you know, Spino Boris Crusace?

But

what I do

is that

if this is what you want to do, you got to be serious about it.

And you may read that stuff, but there's no thing's overnight success.

Because a lot of people,

they say that, but they want to leave out that, you know, they were giving blood

to eat, donating blood to eat.

Yeah, yeah,

they don't tell you the

backstory, the dark story.

The backstory.

And

this is even more important.

I tell my students first day of class,

I hope you are here

because this is what you want to do

the rest of your life

because you want because

this this makes you happy

because if you have a job occupation

that you love

that's a home run

that's a three-pointer yeah that's an 80 yard field no good lord

that's an our marathon yeah

because

when you have occupation that you love,

you don't need to hit the alarm four times to get up.

You do that.

You hit a job you hate.

When I'm shooting a film, I don't have an alarm.

Yeah, yeah.

I know, I got to be on this set, 6 a.m.

I know when I need to put my skinny black ass to bed

so I get to sleep.

Yeah.

So I can wake up and do the job I love.

Like we can tell Spike loves what he does.

Minute he walks in.

You know, yeah, but you ain't seen me in the nick game, though.

Well, actually, I have.

I have.

It's rough.

You know what?

Yeah.

Will you be my guest?

I will.

I will.

I will.

Don't waste that on her.

Oh, don't even.

Take me.

I would be

your guest at the garden.

Have me back, please.

I would love it.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know,

give a last plug for the film.

What do you want to tell the people?

The new joint.

The new joint is highest to lowest, starring

Denzel Washington, Jeffrey Wright,

A Cast, ASAP, Rocky.

Yeah, it is a couple of pierce streaming on Apple, September 5th.

Apple TV Plus.

Yes.

You see how the slippage doesn't happen when it comes to, you know, it's like hold up beats and whatnot.

I'd be like, Spike, and he's not going to know when the film drops.

It's like, nope, not when it comes to the thing he loves.

There is no slippage.

I love you, Spike.

Thank you for this.

We'll see you back at the ranch.