The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury

Are we ready?

Yep.

Okay. We're getting up.
Your hair looks good. Did you chop it off? I did.
It looks really cute. Thank you.
Yeah. I'll have extensions back.
Okay. Like long stripper hair in like next one.
I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis. And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable.
Like, I just don't think that we're really valuing each other. I have seen so many different dating coaches and not all of them handle people the way you do.
I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is the spark. This obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks.
And I think that that actually holds people back. So many of the best relationships really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time.
I love Disney movies. I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important.
And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is 0.0055% of your total time together. So who cares how you Right.
You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship. I love that.
You're so right. Oh my gosh.
Hi, Logan. Hi.
I'm so excited to have you on. Now, I learned about you or I was introduced to you because I was watching The Later Daters on Netflix.
And I know you're a matchmaker on that show, but I wouldn't label you as a matchmaker. You do so much more.
And I love that just from the show, you are so charming and kind, but also telling them the truth. And I just loved your, just how you handle, I think, dating.
And then when I started researching you a little bit more and knowing that you went to Harvard and you worked at Google, and there's so many layers to you, and I just find you so fascinating. So thank you for coming on.
I really was so excited that you said yes. Yes.
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for the kind words. And I love that you found me through later daters.
So yes, I actually would call myself a dating coach over a matchmaker. So really less focused on connecting people and really focused on helping people understand, here's how you've been dating in the past.
Here's why it's not working. Let's make a plan for how you can date differently.
And then that's how you're gonna date like a scientist and get different results. I think it's so fascinating because I don't know if you are so young or you look so young, but either way, you look and you probably are so young, but you have so much experience and I think is so much wisdom.
Um, but especially cause the show is about people dating in the later chapters in their lives and how you handle everyone. I know this isn't a plug for the show.
It's more about your personality and what really made me gravitate towards you. And I was like, gosh, I find you so interesting because I have seen so many different life coaches, dating coaches, and not all of them handle people the way you do.
And I think that takes a lot of empathy, but also self-awareness of your own. And then when I started looking you up and just, you're so intelligent and you've lived so many lives and I'm like, let's have her on.
Yay. Thank you.
Yes. You know, a lot of my research has been with Gen Z and millennial daters.
And then on the show it was over 55 and I was kind of nervous beforehand. I was like, this isn't my typical demographic.
I don't know if everything's going to apply. But I actually found that so much of what I teach and all these lessons about love are really universal.
Because dating is a skill and it can be taught at any age. It is.
And so I didn't realize that most of your education, I guess, if you will, your practice was for the Gen Z and millennials. Do you think that because I really think that there's even a difference in dating from Gen Z's yeah to Millennials what would you can what are those what are the over 55s called I mean just they're kind of like Gen X slash Boomer okay yeah is it really hard to like to get them out of that old school mindset that they have? Because I still feel like I have an old school mindset.
Yeah. So there's differences in each generation.
So I've done a lot of research on Gen Z. I work as the director of relationship science at Hinge.
So I work at that dating app and then I get to do a lot of research. One thing about Gen Z is a lot of them came of age during the pandemic.
I think that that did have a big impact on people's social skills. Like imagine if you were in high school and like everyone in your class was talking to each other and flirting before class and then all of a sudden you're all home isolated on Zoom.
You do sort of miss out on some of those essential flirting skills. You know, if your prom was canceled, you didn't have that prom date and that prom first kiss and all of that and so I do feel like with Gen Z there are some differences versus Millennials also just being digital natives growing up with phones all of those things I think impact it and then Millennials are the first generation that really had dating apps and I think that dating is so different now from even 10 years ago like it used to be that people would meet through family and friends or at a bar or at work.
And then since 2017, the number one way that people meet is online. I do think that that's just blowing up everything that we know about dating.
Yes. And then for the older daters, a lot of them have been married once or twice on this show.
And I feel like for the older daters, there's just a sense of, I'm afraid to put myself out there, or I'm dating the same way I always have. I feel like women can't make the first move.
And so for those older daters, I spent a lot of time, especially the women telling them to throw out that outdated rule book and really date for how people date now. It's just so intimidating because I know how hard it is to change the smallest of habits.
Now you're asking people to adjust and change in the most vulnerable of habits. And I think the older we get, the more stubborn we get to change.
And the fact that you're able to do that, I mean, it's a testament to you and your skill. And it sounds so scary.
It really is. And yeah, there's a metaphor I like to use that like when you're in your 20s and you meet someone, you're both like these two unformed things that come together.
So it's sort of like a startup, like you and your partner come together and you're like, we're going to build a life together. And you're still very much becoming who you're going to become.
And then when you're older, you're really a complete being. And so is the other person.
And so unlike a startup, it's like two companies coming together for a merger. And these mergers, as you know, are notoriously hard because it's like, who's going to be the CEO? Who's going to be the head of HR? And so for these older folks, some of them have lived alone for 20 years.
And the idea of combining closets, combining fridges, what time do we set the alarm in the morning that's really hard

for them and so we think i relate to that so much right now i'm like 20 years if i was alone for 20

years i don't know if i because i've been single for three years yeah sorry i interrupted you but

i've been single for three years and not dating nothing by choice and i get afraid now i'm very

happy where i am right now i'm not i don't think i'm ready to date at the moment but i'm like

Thank you. thing by choice and I get afraid now I'm very happy where I am right now I'm not I don't think I'm ready to date at the moment but I'm like gosh I can't even imagine sharing my bed my remote my household like don't throw me off my routine well that was one of the things I was thinking about as I was preparing for this is like you have such a full life like I feel like you're this amazing businesswoman you're.
You're a great mom. You have great friends and family.
Like, do you need someone in your life for this romantic role? Like, is that something that you're looking for? Right now? No. Like even when I took a quiz that you suggested, would you say it's a personality quiz? Yeah, I have like three dating tendencies, different types of daters.
It's a framework that I came up with. And yes, you took it and I have your results.
Okay, well, we're gonna go through that later. I'm excited.
But I know if I wanted to date, I would right now. I just don't feel that there's this emptiness in my life in that regard.
And I think when you have young kids, at least for me, it's really hard for me to even, because I can't go, I can, but I don't want to go out to a restaurant with someone that I've just met, because then I'm linked to this person, and it turns into some bigger thing. I don't have the average person's issues, so I know they're one-offs, but, and I don't want to bring someone to my home, because my children are there, and I just don't want to introduce my kids to someone unless I've they've been in my life for I would say at least six months or something like that yeah um and I'm not going to their house because what if they murder me there's always that there's always that thought so I'm not there yet I imagine when I am I guess I'll figure it out that's super interesting like what comes to mind for me is like you need like a third space.
Yes. Between like the external world, your home.
I don't know what that would be. But maybe it's like a friend's house who's out of town a lot and you do dates at their house or something like that.
It's so funny. My sister and I, we always say we need a crash pad.
Yeah. Like a bachelorette pad.
Not to, you know, hook up, but just like a safe space. Like, okay, you want to have dinner? We're going to have it here.
Because also if I'm like getting a hotel room, that's really important. Right.
It sends the wrong message. Well, it's interesting.
I think in some ways your dating life might, must be so different from most people's, but in other ways, it's like, you're a mom with young kids and you're dealing with the same thing as other young moms, which is this feeling of, well, if I'm going to spend a night away from my kids, it better be worth it. And then it sets the bar really high versus I imagine if you were dating in your 20s, you'd be like, oh, well, we'll see how this is.
Oh, it was so much easier in my 20s. And I would go out and just like, whatever.
And it's not a big deal. And I don't know even if it would be that big of a deal at my age if I didn't have kids.
I think the children factor is what makes everything so different. Right.
For me. And probably even on the first date, you're like, how would they be around my children? Are they ready to be around my children? Is this somebody I want to be around my children? It just does change the game.
It really does. Oh, God.
But what like when you think about your life, like in like in a year or two if you found someone like what role are they playing in your life because as we said your life is really full and like many of your needs are met by your osos your other significant others so i am what people probably don't think about me. I'm actually very traditional in a relationship.

Like I like the man to be the man, like lead.

I always want to make the man feel like the man.

Like even if someone makes more money than the other, I would never put that in someone's face or have them feel a certain way.

I'm just not that person.

But what would that like?

I don't need a man for anything, but I want them for companionship, I would think, and just to live life with and create memories with. I do want the help with my kids.
I want my kids to see that there's a mommy and a daddy, even if it's not their dad. Am I saying this right? It totally makes sense.
And sort of like for you maybe making the distinction between like there's an empty spot in my bed that I eventually want to fill but that doesn't mean I'm taking anything away from my ex in terms of the kid's father right it's just another person to love them and that's how my mom my dad and my stepdad did that seamlessly like I never felt like my stepdad was coming in and taking my father's place. My father was never excluded from anything.
And my stepdad was never, he never cared if we called him dad or Bruce or whatever. He was so chill and fantastic about everything that it made us proud to have all three of them around.
And then even when my dad would have different girlfriends, we all really liked most of them. Yeah, that's why I'm like, it's not about replacing.
It's like adding an additional person to your life. But it does feel like you kind of have to decide that you want to date.
And I don't know if you're there yet. I don't think I am there yet.
It really makes me nervous. But I also think it makes me nervous just because all the stuff I've been through.
Like I'm more, it's probably mainly, yes, about my kids is the number one. But then the next thing is like, oh, it's just so scary.
How do you know that that's not going to happen again? Do you ever think about like, if you weren't famous, if you weren't who you were, like what your life would be like? Oh, all the time. And like what is that image in your head? I think I would because I've always loved kids.
I think I would definitely be doing something with kids. I wanted to be a school teacher, some sort of educator for kids that I probably should be doing that.
But I always wanted to do something like that with kids and otherwise just like be at home with my family I mean it's just so interesting because I feel like you get to have a lot of opportunities because of who you are but then I imagine it does make dating just distinctly harder I think so yes I mean but then I see so many other people doing it or like they're just so seamlessly from one relationship to the next. I'm like, how do they do this? I think most people are having a hard time.
Like, I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis. And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable.
Like, oh, I went on a date with this girl. I didn't text her back.
She got mad. Oh, I'll just match with someone else.
Like, I just don't think that we're really valuing each other. And I'm also just hearing like a lot of people that are so focused on career that I think it's great to be focused on career.
I'm focused on career. You're focused on career.
But it's like, you also need to make time for relationships if that's something that you're looking for right and so yeah you know you mentioned

the thing around like you didn't say exactly like this but it's like you'll probably make more money than the person that you date but then you still want that traditional relationship I think a lot of people are struggling with that right now because the majority of college graduates are women many women are making more than the men that they're dating and I think that we haven't totally caught up to that.

And so it's like it can feel very emasculating for the man and for the woman. They're like, I want them to take me out, but I make more than them.
And I don't think people have figured out how to navigate that. But I also think that there is not all women, but I've noticed from some of my friend groups that some women like to hold that they are making more as a power move yeah where for me I think I feel like I don't like I don't want to do that because I would hate if someone did that to me yeah and I like if we go out like there's certain things you could do either if you have you want to have a joint credit card or even just like pass the credit card on to your man that's what i've heard that's what i've heard like my my friend is like a personal finance guy ramit sati and he was saying how like this couple that he was coaching the woman would give the guy she was dating her credit card before the date because she wanted to have that experience of him putting the credit card out even though it was hers and like part of me is like that's so silly you're playing pretend and the other part is like no you're getting what you want but you're still covering it I think a mistake that people make in modern dating is trying to find their personality twin and then oftentimes like if your life of the party you don't need another life of the party person like two of you in the room same room is too much and I think people really need to think about finding your complement yeah and so I wonder for you like what that looks like so the first thing I would want in any relationship is to feel safe I think especially like now the older I am I turn 40 this year and I feel like I'm over like I don't want to be worried about what you're doing.

And I don't know if that's just like a forever feeling, but I don't think so. I think that most people feel like secure in their relationships and they're like, no, we're good.
And also I'm so busy. Like, I'm not, I don't have time to worry about people except my kids.
safe but I love to laugh

and I like to be silly and just

light hearted and dance around my house. Like I like someone that can be a homebody but also be really lively within the home.
Like I don't want you to be a recluse but you're some Debbie Downer. Yeah.
But I don't mind a homebody. But like let's dance or we could have people over.
I just don't like to be out on the town. Yeah.
But within my home, I'll do whatever you want to do. I love that.
It's like life of the party, but the party is your house. Yes, exactly.
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I have this question I like to ask people. Who is your penthouse person? So a penthouse person is like someone in your life who really raises your energy.
When you walk away from them, there's pep in your step. You love being around them.
But the opposite sex? No, this can be a friend. And then a basement person is someone like where you walk away and you're kind of like, oh, I feel worse about myself.
Like, I don't know what it is. I feel a little anxious.
You don't have to tell me who your basement person is, but you can think of someone. But can you think of someone who's your penthouse person where you just feel very energized by being with them all my siblings and my mom like how do you feel when you're around them well depend I would say 90% of the time if we're not like feuding or something like that but I when I see them I get like really smiley and excited to see them and giddy and most of my like we're supportive and were always encouraged like we're each other's cheerleaders so like I just saw my sister Kylie when I walked in here and she was like oh I'm so excited for today for you and like we were just like pumping each other up and that made me feel really good I was like fuck yes I'm gonna hang out with Logan like it's gonna be great but it felt good where's know I don't know she doesn't nobody takes me down sibling wise so let's say that Kylie is your penthouse person it's like in dating I think a lot of times people come in with this checklist especially as they get older the list gets longer yeah must be this tall must have this job must have this type of family but instead I really encourage people to think about what side of you does that person bring out? And how do you feel around them? So if you're like Kylie, or some of my other siblings are my penthouse people, when I'm around someone, I want them to bring out that confident, smiley side of me.
And I think that that shift really helps people because they sort of stop paying attention to what's on paper and their resume. And they really pay attention to how do I feel around them.
I think that's something that people have just lost sight of. Right.
Like paying attention to how you feel in your body, I think is so underrated. Right.
Like I remember when I was interviewing at two different companies and it was so easy to say, well, this company will give me this perks and this company will give me that perk. But then when I actually thought about like how I felt in those interviews, it was so obvious which company I should work for.
I think we have a hard time really ignoring those shinier on paper traits and really paying attention to what's my penthouse person and what's my penthouse job and things like that. It's interesting you say that because in terms of work I've done that the older I've gotten I've had job opportunities with certain people and I'm like honestly that person makes me feel so bad about myself and not all money is good money I just I would rather say no and move on and I feel like God will bless me with something else and normally I would say actually every time I've done that I've been I don't know if the term is rewarded but I've been blessed with something better and with so much more of an amazing person that owns that company or whatnot and so in that regard I do think I listen to myself and I agree with you completely.
But with dating, for me at least, I think either I meet someone and I could tell probably in the beginning, like, I don't want to hang out with this person again or, or sure. But don't you think it takes a minute to really know how you're feeling on the inside? Because sometimes the honeymoon stage is so blissful.
I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is fuck the spark. And that's really based on this idea that so many of the people that I would coach would come to me and say, I met this guy.
He was great. We had a good time.
I'm never going to see him again. Why? And then I would say, why? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark.
And so it was like this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks and feeling like I'll know it when I see it and I think that that actually holds people back and so many of the best relationships that I've experienced that other people are in really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time well speaking of that isn't that similar to what you went through with your husband? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes, I definitely think that I'm blessed with a slow burn relationship.
So, you know, it's interesting, I work at a dating app, but my husband and I first met in college. And we just had a random lunch one day.
And then seven years later, we were both working at Google. he said hi.
And then I had this lunch for people who went to Harvard who worked at Google. And we sort of just became friends.
But at the same time, I was chasing this other guy that I had met at Burning Man. Have you ever been to Burning Man? I haven't, but I know all about it.
Yeah. So it's like, of course, do you like fall in love at Burning Man and everything's like so intense.
And so it's like met this great guy, but was not thinking about him. I was really chasing this guy from Burning Man.
And when I look back, I have so much empathy for that version of myself. But I really was in pain where when you really, really like someone and they don't like you back, instead of just accepting it, I just went through all these mental hoops to try to get him to like me.
And it's like, yeah, I feel sad about it. It's like, how can I convince this person that I'm worthy? How can I make this person fall for me? Instead of the advice that I would give that person now, which is, if they're not choosing you, then they're not the right person for you.
I think we've all done that yeah we've all sang for our supper if you will and it's sucks yeah it really sucks because you're like oh I'm not good enough instead of like we're not the right match right and like how can I prove I'm good enough like this person is now the person who can evaluate me so then I was so upset about this whole situation with this guy from Burning Man I remember remember like crying on my friend's couch. And then he was like, you know, I really think you should see a dating coach.
And then I ended up seeing my own coach. And so this was before I did like the kind of work I do now.
And this woman really helped me understand what I wanted in a relationship and how I wanted someone to make me feel. And when I thought about how I wanted someone to make me feel, you know, it was desired and valued and secure.
I realized I felt the opposite with this Burning Man guy. He made me feel insecure and not valued.
But this guy at work who had been tutoring me in the statistical programming language was so funny. He made me feel those things.
And it was kind of of like how familiar are you with the movie clueless obviously okay very so you know like towards the end of the movie she's like walking down i feel like she's shopping somewhere in la and then she like is near um some sort of fountain and she's like oh my god like it's him it's been him like i kind of had that moment where i was like it this guy from work. He makes me feel these ways.
And so, you know, we started hanging out a little bit more. And then eventually I was like, Hey, I don't have plans on Friday.
You should ask me out, which is I asked him out. And then, yeah.
And then that really became our love story. And that was 10 years ago.
And so I feel like I had been chasing these sparky guys who were, you know, so dynamic and charismatic. And as soon as you meet them, you want to be around them more.
But instead, I married this slow burn guy who I feel like not everyone else saw how special he was. But 10 years later, I'm like, I feel like I won the lottery.
And you did. Yeah.
I'm sure everyone is like, we need the slow burn. Right.
But I want to train people to look for the slow burn because like the spark is so attractive and I feel like there's all these myths of the spark like one is that if it's the right person you'll feel instant chemistry that's just not true sometimes you have to get to know someone more I'm sure you have people like this in your life where every time you see them you like them more and more because they open up Yes Versus some people are super sparky when you meet them and you're like, oh, I really felt something with that guy And then your friends like I really felt something with that guy, too It's like no that guy's just really sparky, right and it can feel confusing and sometimes that spark is actually anxiety And alarm bells that we mistake for butterflies, right? And then the third myth is that if you have a spark at the beginning, then it's going to be a great long term relationship. And that's not true.
Think about how many relationships start with a spark and then burn out really quickly. And a lot of people that I've met, they stay with the wrong person because they met the right way.
What do you mean by that? It's like people are just so obsessed with the love story. Got it.
Like I was supposed to get on this flight, but I missed it. And then he was in line with me at TSA.
The fantasy. And if I had made that flight and it's like they love telling that story and they're ready to tell that story in their vows.
But then they reject the fact that like this relationship is actually not that good. And I think like, you know, I love Disney movies.

I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important.

And if you're with someone for 50 years,

the day that you meet is 0.0055% of your total time together.

So who cares how you met?

You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic

relationship. Do you feel like you're guilty of falling for the spark? Yes.
What does it feel like for you? Well, I got married in 30 days of meeting my first husband. We met and then I actually when he proposed we got married nine days later so yes guilty yeah take me to jail but I agree it's you don't know someone I also wouldn't change it I also love that experience and it was one of like the best experiences of my life and I loved that but I don't think I'll never say never but I don't think I would ever do that again yeah I hope not um because you really don't know the person and yes the spark does it goes fast as fast as it started it can also dwindle just as quickly but I feel like with Others, I've done both.
I've taken some time, but I've also gone headfirst. I do feel my history is probably more of a headfirst type of gal.
So what I've done intentionally this time is taken a break from dating and I really wanted to work on myself and focus on my kids. But also, I felt like I was way too fragile of a person.
And I lost so much of who I was, I lost my confidence and so many layers of myself that I had years ago. And so I really wanted to get that version of myself back maybe, you know, the 4.0 version, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, what number are we on? For my 40. That's why I was know the 4.0 version whatever you want to call it well yeah what number are we on for my 40 that's why I was like the 4.0 version but I really wanted to get the more mature different version but the better version of myself and so intentionally yeah I wasn't dating because it's so easy to be an avoidant and distract and hang out with men because that feeling feels good.
It does. And

just to have the love and I've been there and I've done that. But it hasn't worked out great for me in the past.
That's why this time I wanted to try something different. And I really like I like where I am right now in my life.
I really do. But I do know I, I believe in love.
I believe in the happily ever after.

I do. I'm not cynical.
I do think someone's out there for me. I just don't know if right now is my time.
And it could be fear. It could be that I'm avoiding getting back into that dating pool.
But it's just where I'm comfortable right now. Well, it's so interesting because I almost wonder if you overcorrected.
if you're like, all right, 2.0 version of myself, yes, jumped headfirst into relationships. So 4.0 version needs to really slow down.
Yes. But perhaps you've slowed down too much.
Because if we're allowed to talk about your quiz results, tell me, yeah, so you, your quiz results suggested that you are a hesitator. Okay.
And so a hesitator is someone who's not putting themselves out there and dating. No.
Because they feel like, oh, I'm not 100% who I want to be yet. And I want to work on myself more and then I'll be ready to date.
And for you, it might be, I want to just really focus on motherhood in this time, or this just isn't the moment. And so for the hesitator, it's like they have an identity of I'm not a dater right now.
That's spot on. 100%.
I don't put myself out there. I haven't been on one date.
Like not one in three years. Like I don't.
Yes. Like I don't even think I'm looking.
I'm not interacting with the opposite sex. Unless you're already in my life, a friend of mine.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Closed no closed for business don't talk to me if you met a great guy and I truly don't know how you're meeting strangers like would you feel open to it you're like stranger danger I know stranger danger I and what's crazy is I tell myself or my friends when they ask me are you open to it I'm like yes I'm open to it but where am I Like if I'm Really laying it out there I don't even Go anywhere I think to be Open to it okay so this I was thinking Before our conversation like where would you meet people It's like you're not gonna be on an app I don't think that so people always ask Me if I'm on right yeah It's like a Application only it does Tend to attract like certain Celebr celebrities or athletes but it's like i just i can't really see you with where you are in life like being on an app i can't either yeah and so like this idea just like popped into my head okay okay imagine if you're like two weekdays a month i'm gonna have a dinner party in my house and And I'm going to ask friends to bring random people, guys, like men and women, like not like putting pressure on it, not making it into a dating show.
And then just putting yourself in situations where you're meeting more people, like safe people that someone's vouching for. And it's not a one-on-one date where you feel like, okay, like, am I going to introduce them to my kids? Or this is awkward that I have a man over, but just exposing yourself to more new people in a safe way, where you can see how they interact with you and other people.
And then through that, maybe just like expanding your network. And one of those people you'll have a crush on.
So what's crazy is I say that all the time. I'm like, I used to do Taco Tuesdays.
Oh, cute. Like every week.
And it was called Tattle Free Tuesdays. Because I was like, whoever comes and if you guys want to smooch in the corner, like nobody's talking.
Who cares? It was just what I did before kids. But my friends were like, when are you doing Taco Tuesdays again? I'm like, it's a different version.
But it wasn't like anything wild. It was just fun.
And everyone had their fun. Like we all left our phones at the door and it was just playing games and I always say let's do that and people bring other people but I never follow through that's what I feel like you need because you're just not gonna be meeting people out and about most of the things I would tell most people do not apply to you but I think that if you can do it within your house you you feel safe, you're creating the environment, and then people are bringing people to meet you both as friends and potential partners.
I think it's kind of a way to slow roll into it. And I, as much as I don't trust a lot of people, I really like talking with people.
Like I find other people fascinating. So even just doesn't have to be on a romantic level I do enjoy like I'm fine human behavior fascinating I really do and I just like to engage with other people and imagine so okay like a while ago my friend and I did these dinners called intrigued where like imagine well this is more my life than your life like you're at a conference and you meet someone and you want to see them again, but it's like too forward to say, do you want to get a drink? And you're not ready to hang out one-on-one, but then you text them and you say like, I find you intriguing.
I'm going to bring you to this intrigue dinner with other people that we find intriguing. So you're already like very flattered.
And then you come and you already have a good impression of everyone because you're like, they're all so intriguing. And then you meet and you just have this interesting conversation.
I love that. Like I can just see you or you and a friend or you and a family member doing that.
And it's a way to bring what we call weak ties into your life. So it's like, you know who your own small circle knows, but who are like the next level, the next layer.
And how can you bring like new people and new energy into your life in a way that feels safe? You're probably at your best in your house, not when you're like, you know, worrying about paparazzi or something. It's like, how can you be the most comfortable, authentic version of Chloe and bring people in and see like, do they fit in my home? Does this feel comfortable? No, I love that.
And I'm always like, oh, it's getting late. Gotta go home.
But when I'm at home, I'm like, oh, I'm fine. I don't know what I'm getting home to.
Like, I just like to be. I think that's a cool way to like ease yourself back into the waters.
Because for my hesitators, the people who get that on the quiz, I'm like, you kind of have an identity of I'm not dating. And then it's hard to welcome new romantic energy into your life.
Whereas if you say I'm open to dating, you know, I haven't dated in a while, but I'm open to it. I do think that energetically things change.
Because right now, if you just think I'm not dating, I feel like things won't change. And do you think there's anything wrong? Let's just say I do this and I'm like, I don't think I'm there yet.
Let's say. Do you think there's anything wrong with someone taking like five years off of any romantic, physical, like any sort of dating, let's say? I don't have rules around like do or don't take time off.
It really depends what your goals are. Like if your goal is to find someone and to have that companion, then I would say why put a false amount of time on it where you have to wait to date.
But if you really tell me like, I just want to focus on my kids, like I know this is what I want, then I would say take all the time you need. But for hesitators, I often just like to say to them, like, imagine that a year from now, like you were in this great relationship.
Like, tell me about waking up in the morning. Tell me about drinking coffee with this person.
And they often get really excited about that possibility. See, that doesn't make me excited right now.
I get anxious thinking of that. Like, I get up at five.
I have things to do. Yeah.
Like, you're freaking me out. But like, no, no, no, that's good.
I mean, you may not want it. want it but it's like what are the moments where you're like it would be great to have somebody to tell about my day it would be great to share this moment with someone to be honest like because the evenings yeah everyone's gonna think I'm nuts because in the evenings I'm like oh thank god my kids are asleep I have like an hour I can watch something on tv and then like like I just like also my quiet time the moments are when there's a vacation or if I would like every now and again maybe to go to like a dinner with someone or just do an activity with somebody else but I don't mind being the only single one right when people are I'm not that person that's like I'm the third wheel I'm like hell yeah I'm the third wheel like I find that I'm not insecure about that stuff but then I would say when I social media if I'm like scrolling and I'm seeing you know people that have been married 50 years like when they're really old that's when I'm like I can't be I'm not gonna be alone when I'm seeing people that have been married 50 years when they're really old, that's when I'm like, I can't be, I'm not gonna be alone when I'm really old.
My mom always says when my kids are gone, I'm really gonna be like, damn, I wish I had someone and feel really alone because I put so much into my kids. But I don't know.
I mean, what I'm hearing from you is that your life is just so full that you feel really happy most of the time with the way things are there's nothing missing and then in fact when you have the solo time it's kind of just a chance to recharge so you don't see a moment where you're like I need a man here like insert another human there the only time I did was during the fires and I was like I'm evacuating. And with two kids and I had to get my daughter's two cats.
But my brother lives right down the street and I'm like, come over and he's helping me load my car. So that's really the only time I was like, shit, I wish I had someone even just because I'm, you know, stone cold to my kids like, oh, everything's fine.
And I'm acting. I wish I had someone even next to me.
Yeah. Are we going to be fine? Like that where I'm just doing it by myself.
And it's more an internal. I wish I did have a partner.
I think when tragedies arise, but how often is that? Well, what I was going to say is like, you're doing great, you don't need someone else.

But the thing about relationships is,

I feel like a lot of the beautiful ones

are like many years of being together.

And so it's sort of like maybe that's something

where you want to start it now

so that you can grow together and grow old together.

But what I'm hearing you say is like,

you don't need someone right now.

And in that case, I would say like, maybe wait until you feel like you really have space for it. You know, we always talk about relationship red flags, the things to avoid.
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I do like your idea about having people come over, and I don't think there's any harm in that either way. Yeah.
Because I do like people, and I think it would add a little more life to my house. I just imagine being a celebrity can be very isolating.
It is. Because everyone you meet, you have to say, what do they want from like, are they on the payroll and like all this stuff.
And it's like, if you can create a space where academics are coming into your life or like somebody is really interesting artist friend, just expanding your network a little bit more to expose yourself to new people. I think that that's where a connection is going to come from.
It's like, that's why you want to have this podcast, right? Because you're trying to like meet new people and have deep conversations. It's like you could have a partner where they're saying to you, oh my goodness, let me tell you about this science experiment that I just read about and the crazy stuff happening with quantum computing.
And you'd be like, cool, I didn't know about that. It's like, I think that right now when you imagine a relationship, you said it gave you anxiety because you're like, I wake up at five, I have things to do.
It's like I think you're imagining what it would take away from you, which maybe is like time, freedom, things with your kids. But I also want you to think about what it would give to you.
I know. I need to think more positively in that aspect.
Yeah. I really do.
I don't want to push you if you don't feel like you're ready for it now. But I do think that relationships in general,

the research shows, make people happier, make people healthier. And I think that we think about financial fitness, we think about mental health, and we think about physical fitness, but there's also social fitness.
And I think that there's something about love relationships that's really special. And I love love, like that feeling of being in love.
I think it's the most beautiful thing. And people are always so surprised when I say how much I believe in love and like that I know I'm going to be married again one day and have my happily ever after.
I don't know why people expect me to be really cynical and like, fuck love. Right.
But I'm not. I think it's amazing.
Well, it's like maybe you're a romantic who's just fallen head over heels a few times and is like, now I need to hold myself back. And then it's kind of like, what's the in between that feels good for you in 4.0? You know what I think it is? I don't know if I trust myself anymore.
Yeah. And before, I don't think I questioned my picking.
What does not trusting yourself mean? Well, my track record hasn't been great. Yeah, yeah.
But in a pretty volatile, traumatic. Yeah, way not violent like that.
But just it's so yeah, it's really crashed and burned that I'm like, Okay, what? What did I not see? There was a lot of red flags. In hindsight, right at the time, I was like, oh, everything looks green to me.
Let's go. I think that's pretty common.
People who stop trusting their guts, who are like, those red flags were waving in my face and I didn't notice them, then they pull themselves back because they're like, I can't trust my instincts. But I think there's another way to look at it or reframe, which is I'm going to get myself more dating experience so that I get better at it.
And I think dating really is a skill and that you can get better at it over time. But the only way to get better at dating is by dating.
I also agree with what you're saying that we are exposed to too much. And you were saying earlier, like people are more not people think people are more disposable.
and I think relationships lasted so much longer back in the day because even if somebody did something that was not uh respectful in their relationship yeah probably you were never going to know about it what you don't know doesn't hurt you like think like if you were you know how people like like someone else's photo or like will be viewing someone's page that's the same thing if a guy was like oh that waitress is hot right like you wouldn't know there's truly a lot more ways to cheat now right like with texting with sexting with only fans it's like actually just the amount of different ways that you could sort of be disloyal to someone. But not even it has to be that severe.
Like now a girl of court, and rightfully so, girls will be like, why are you on that girl's page? And like she'll break up with someone. And that's fine.
That's your boundary. But back in the day, if someone was like with his friends, that girl's hot.
You got away with it. And because your girlfriend or wife wouldn't know about it definitely it could be that minor but now people do discard people so easily but if those are your boundaries they're your boundaries yeah i do think social media is a very very tricky place it really is it lets and you're also fantasizing because how we had disney movies they now have you follow these couples on instagram and you're like oh it's this fairy tale look beautiful and behind the scenes they're miserable and they hate each other one of my favorite things about my husband is that he doesn't use social media at all love that like isn't that so sexy i love that because he doesn't need other people to tell him his worth yes and he's not keeping track of other people and comparing and despairing.
I think if it wasn't for my job, I wouldn't have social media because I don't want you chiming in on something about me or be private. It's hard to perform.
I think it's like hard. Like this is something I'm really studying with Gen Z is like this idea of like surveillance culture.
And like if you live in public like I think back to high school and like mistakes that I made. And it's like if somebody had been shooting an Instagram story at the time like and I've been in the background like who knows what would have happened.
But like I didn't think about being surveilled. Right.
And I feel like just reading between the lines of some of the stuff that I do when I interview Gen Z daters, there's like a sense that you're always being watched. I think people are just more uptight now.
And it's like Gen Z is losing their virginity later. They're

not drinking as much. They're not getting their driver's license as often.
Like, I think that

it's really important to take risks and to be open to rejection. And I think the lack of risk behavior in some ways it's great like less drinking and driving but I'm also worried right and I didn't I know my nephew and his group of friends I've noticed that they push off the yeah driver's permit like why like when I was able to get my license actually I'm a bad example of this because I was afraid of getting my license.
But like most people that weren't me were getting their license as soon as they could.

Oh, I was stealing cars at 14.

I needed to drive.

So with your nephew, what do you think is going on?

Well, I also think because like of Ubers, those things that are easier for them.

And they're like, well, why do I need to take this test?

That is a good point.

I do think it's that, which sort of that scares me more than having my kid drive because yeah yeah stranger driving you around yeah so I think it's that but I could also be like a fear of rejection or I'm gonna fail this it's too much pressure yeah I don't know but I I also notice the uh not drinking thing but I also noticed that younger kids are or the gen z kids are so much more into health and fitness right like drinking water and what's artificial and i'm like i'd never heard of water until like last year so i'm the same like what the hell was water and the sparkling water i'm like my daughter's six and all of my nieces drink sparkling water. I'm like, bougie.
I know. What are the results on your quiz? Oh, yeah, yeah.
I can go through all that. Yes.
I would love to know. Okay.
So when I have coached a lot of different people, I noticed that even though there are different people from different walks of life, they had one thing in common, which was unrealistic expectations. And so I designed this framework called the three dating tendencies.
So you took that quiz and people can take it on my website. So the first one, it's really easy.
Yeah, it takes 10 minutes. Yeah, right.
So the first one is the romanticizer, which is actually what I thought you were going to be. So the romanticizer is the person who's like, there's a soulmate out there for me.
There's one person when I meet them, I'll know they're very focused on the we met. And what happens to romanticizers is often when they meet someone who's not in the package that they expected, or when the relationship hits that inevitable rough spot, they think, oh, this must not be my person.
Because if it was my soulmate, it would be easier than this. So the homework for the romanticizer is to understand that of course relationships are hard and that it doesn't matter how you met it matters that you met and then the second type which is a lot of what I deal with with CEOs and people in New York in the Bay Area is maximizers okay I'm sure you know a lot of people like this they have unrealistic expectations of their partner so they think they come to my house with spreadsheets and they're like I want the looks of this girl the ambition of this girl the family of this girl like find me someone like that and they're always searching for the perfect person and they feel like oh I'm close but if I found this girl I want to find someone even better oh gosh and so they feel like there's someone perfect out there instead of understanding that you could make it work with many people, it's about choosing someone great and investing in that.
And that really great relationships are built. They're not discovered.
And so how can you truly find someone great and build it versus just trying to like trade up all the time? Right. And then the third type, which is what you were on the quiz, is the hesitator.
And they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. So they're often feeling like, I'm not ready to date yet, or I'm not exactly who I wanna be, or when my kids are in school, I'll be ready to date.
When I clean up my apartment. Yeah, when I get a different job, when I have more time.
And so they are creating these hurdles of I can't date until this. And then once they kind of overcome that hurdle, they move the goalposts and it's another one.
And so for hesitators, a lot of the work is choosing a date, choosing a deadline and saying, I'm going to start dating. Having an identity around being a dater, being open to dating and really just having some accountability.
So it's like, can you bring back Taco Tuesdays? Can one of your siblings or one of your friends be like, Chloe, we're doing this. Doesn't have to be every Tuesday, but just once a month, we're gonna do Taco Tuesday.
It's gonna be really fun. It's gonna feel safe.
And just creating an environment where you're more open to people entering your life. And I feel like I can commit to a once a month Taco Tuesday.

Right.

I feel like that's not too crazy.

I mean, doesn't that sound fun?

It does.

I want to eat tacos on Tuesdays.

Like, that sounds great.

And having it be something that you're looking forward to instead of something with like a lot of pressure,

a lot of sacrifices around it.

It's like you're bringing into your home people that you love and then also a few new people it's like sprinkling them in yeah I love yeah do you think at different parts in someone's life they can change because I feel like I used to be the romanticizer yeah and now I'm the procrastinator I definitely think people can change like there's this concept from the Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert called the end of history illusion. So if you say to somebody who's 30, how much did you change in the last 10 years? They'll say so much.
I'm totally different. Then you say, how much will you change in the next 10 years? And they'll say, not much.
I'm done changing. And so it's like people actually change a lot, but their projection is that they won't change that much.
And so I think if we just all embrace the fact that we're growing, changing people, I think it helps us understand each other and ourselves more and also be excited. And so I think the fact that you're different than you used to be is great.
And there's a lot of growth in there. Well, now that you have a baby, how old is she? She's 14 months.
14 months. Yeah.
Do you think because you had a challenging end of your pregnancy that you have even so much more gratitude that you get to hold her and snuggle her every day? Yeah. I mean, I think when I look around and see the stories about motherhood, like this this is what I'd say I'd say pregnancy and labor are harder than people talk about maybe women don't want to freak other women out I think it actually is like a scary thing like women are still dying in childbirth right and so I kind of feel like many moms that I've talked to are like yeah that was way more real than I expected But I think motherhood is so much greater than people talk about.
I had an easy pregnancy. Like, I don't know how most people feel, but I actually liked being pregnant.
I felt like it kind of like, I don't even know how it evened me out. Like, I like not getting my period.
I shot my TV show when I was pregnant. Like, I happened to really like it.
And then like one day, I just noticed like, oh, my hands are swelling. And I called the doctor and I, you know, I spoke to the nurse and she was like, here are the signs of preeclampsia.
It's like, you know, swelling in your extremities, headaches, some blurriness or floaters in your eyes, like pain, like above your stomach your rib cage and I was like okay well I don't really have those and then like a week later I just wasn't feeling well and I was in the shower and I started going through the symptoms and it was kind of like everything was flashing before my eyes because I was like wait I do have floaters right now I now. I do have this pain in my stomach.
And like as I was in the shower, I started like saying this thing over and over in my head, which was like, I mean, get out of the shower and say to my husband, like, I don't mean to freak you out. But I think we have to call the nurse's hotline.
Wow. Like and then I got a shower.
I told him they said, take your blood pressure. And it was like through the roof.
And we were supposed to go to the ballet that night. And he was like, oh oh I don't want to cross like the bridge to San Francisco like where I was supposed to give birth like let's just go to the local Berkeley hospital so we're like okay fine so we just went there and then like all of a sudden like everything moved so quickly they were like you have severe preeclampsia you're admitted to this hospital you're not allowed to leave like you are now a patient of this hospital and like you will be here.
And how far along were you? I was 32 weeks. Oh my gosh.
Yeah. So they were like, you're not going to leave this hospital.
Like you, the latest that you would give birth is in two weeks. So then just like everything started happening really fast.
And this is like such like a 2023 like tech moment. My husband works in tech, but like I didn't really know how bad things were until my husband went home to get some stuff and he was like send me the master password for your one password like basically for my password manager and I was like am I gonna die like why do you need my master password oh my god I love him yeah he's really funny and so yeah basically like you know then things started to look better but they woke me up so I went to the hospital at 4pm.
And then they woke me up the next morning at 3am. And they're yeah, basically, like, you know, then things started to look better, but they woke me up.
So I went to the hospital at 4 p.m. And then they woke me up the next morning at 3 a.m.
And they're like, your body is shutting down. You now have HELP syndrome.
Like, the only cure for this is HELP syndrome. It's basically like a worse version of preeclampsia.
Oh, wow. It's like, yeah, it's very dangerous.
And so they were like, you need to give birth right now. So, like, I had an emergency C-section atsection at 32 weeks and it was so hard and she was in the NICU for six weeks and I felt like my husband just like was my brain for two months like I was a body that would move from my bed to the hospital to visit my daughter but I wasn't making decisions I the doctors would come talk to us and it was like I, I couldn't even understand what they were saying.
And like, he just handled all the decisions. And it's like, when people are looking for someone to be with, I think they say like, who's fun? Like, who am I attracted to? Like, who do my friends like? It's like, these are the times.
Yes. It's like, who is going to talk to the doctor on your behalf when you don't have a brain and your child is in the NICU right I agree that's such a beautiful story and thank you so much for sharing that my sister Kim had preeclampsia and I remember at the none of us I think ever heard of it before my mom had six somewhat easy pregnancies and so did Courtney and I just remember like what I flash back to is like this was like the craze of tabloids and everyone making fun of my sister for like her swollen big feet in high heels and yeah her hands and she's like I'm pregnant isn't this normal but she really none of us knew and she did have pretty fat feet but like we thought that was right what happens in pregnancy we didn't know any different but just like literally I can google it now and you'll see all these pills and you're like what and why didn't the doctor tell her like that's what's so hard is I'm like I am an educated person I have access to great medical care but like I barely knew what preeclampsia was I had not read a about pregnancy, about having a kid.
I was like, that's what January is for. And like she came in December.
So like, how did I not know what preeclampsia was? And that's one of those things where I'm just like, I do hope that people see this and like know what those symptoms are. Like get a blood pressure machine to check it at home.
Like that was one thing that was helpful for us. And I wish I checked my blood pressure before.
No, but like you said, you didn't know about it. And if it weren't for Kim's experience, I don't think I would have known about it probably until this conversation.
I don't think people talk about it enough. That was one thing that I had my son via surrogate.
And I do speak about my experience. It's not all daisies and rainbows with him.
And, you know, I sometimes I fight myself with that because I don't ever want to make him feel bad the older he gets. But I also feel like people should hear this side because I only hear one really great side.
And I remember I felt like a really bad human being because I was not feeling the way that I would only read about or hear about. Yeah, I wish there was like more education about some of this stuff.
Well, you're doing that right now. You really are just people will listen or watch and they will hear your story.
And I hope nobody has that. But if they have any of these symptoms, at least go get it checked.
It never hurts to get things checked. Well, Logan, I can sit and chat with you all day.
This was so nice. I'm definitely going to start my Taco Tuesdays.
Yay. Monthly.
I love it. Once a month.
I'm ready for that. But baby steps are still steps.
And yeah, just thank you for chatting with me.

I really think this is going to be so helpful for so many people.

Thank you.

Yes.

Thank you for the opportunity to chat and to get to know you and to share some of these

messages with more people.

Thank you, Logan.