The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury

Speaker 1 Are we ready? Yep.

Speaker 1 Okay. Good.
We're getting up.

Speaker 1 Your hair looks good. Did you chop it off? I did.
It looks really cute.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'll have extensions back, like longer hair in like the next one.

Speaker 1 I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis.

Speaker 2 And why do you think that is?

Speaker 1 I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable. Like I just don't think that we're really valuing each other.

Speaker 2 I have seen so many different dating coaches, and not all of them handle people the way you do.

Speaker 1 I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is the spark, this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks. And I think that that actually holds people back.

Speaker 1 So many of the best relationships really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time.

Speaker 1 I love Disney movies, I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important.

Speaker 1 And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is is 0.0055 percent of your total time together right so who cares how you met right you can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship i love that you're so right oh my gosh

Speaker 2 Hi, Logan. I'm

Speaker 2 so excited to have you on. Now, I learned about you or I was introduced to you because I was watching the later daters on Netflix.
And

Speaker 2 I know you're a matchmaker on that show, but I wouldn't label you as a matchmaker. You do so much more.
And I love that just from the show,

Speaker 2 you are

Speaker 2 so charming and

Speaker 2 kind,

Speaker 2 but also

Speaker 2 telling them the truth. And I just loved your

Speaker 2 just how you handle, I think, dating. And then when I started researching you a little bit more and knowing that you went to Harvard and you worked at Google, and there's so many layers to you.

Speaker 2 And I just find you so fascinating. So thank you for coming on.
I really was so excited that you said yes.

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah. Thank you for having me.
Thank you for the kind words. And I love that you found me through later daters.
So yes, I actually would call myself a dating coach over a matchmaker.

Speaker 1 So really less focused on connecting people and really focused on helping people understand, here's how you've been dating in the past. Here's why it's not working.

Speaker 1 Let's make a plan for how you can date differently. And then that's how you're going to date like a scientist and get different results.

Speaker 2 I think it's so fascinating because I don't know if you are so young or you look so young, but either way, you look and you probably are so young, but you have so much experience and I think

Speaker 2 so much wisdom.

Speaker 2 But especially because the show is about about people dating in the later chapters in their lives and how you handle everyone. I know this isn't a plug for the show.

Speaker 2 It's more about your personality and what really made me gravitate towards you. And I was like, gosh, I find you so interesting because I have seen so many different

Speaker 2 life coaches, dating coaches, and not all of them handle people the way you do. And I think that takes a lot of empathy, but also self-awareness of your own.

Speaker 2 And then when I started looking you up and just, you're so intelligent and you've lived so many lives, I'm like, let's have her on.

Speaker 1 Yay, thank you. Yes, you know, a lot of my research has been with Gen Z and millennial daters.
And then on the show, it was over 55. And I was kind of nervous beforehand.

Speaker 1 I was like, this isn't my typical demographic. I don't know if everything's going to apply.

Speaker 1 But I actually found that so much of what I teach and all these lessons about love are really universal because dating is a skill and it can be taught at any age.

Speaker 2 It is. And so I didn't realize that most of your education, I guess, if you will, your practice, was for the Gen Z and millennials.

Speaker 2 Do you think that,

Speaker 2 because I really think that there's even a difference in dating from Gen Z's to millennials? What would you, what are those, what are the over 55s called? I mean,

Speaker 2 they're kind of like

Speaker 1 Gen X slash boomer.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
Is it really hard to like to get them out of that? old school mindset that they have because I still feel like I have an old school mindset.

Speaker 1 Yeah. so there's differences in each generation.
So I've done a lot of research on Gen Z. I work as the director of relationship science at Hinge.

Speaker 1 So I work at that dating app and then I get to do a lot of research. One thing about Gen Z is a lot of them came of age during the pandemic.

Speaker 1 I think that that did have a big impact on people's social skills.

Speaker 1 Like imagine if you were in high school and like everyone in your class was talking to each other and flirting before class. And then all of a sudden you're all home isolated on Zoom.

Speaker 1 You do sort of miss out on some of those essential flirting skills. You know, if your prom was canceled, you didn't have that prom date and that prom first kiss and all of that.

Speaker 1 And so I do feel like with Gen Z, there are some differences versus millennials. Also, just being digital natives, growing up with phones, all of those things I think impact it.

Speaker 1 And then millennials are the first generation that really had dating apps. And I think that dating is so different now from even 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 Like it used to be that people would meet through family and friends or at a bar or at work. And then since 2017, the number one way that people meet is online.

Speaker 1 I do think that that's just blowing up everything that we know about dating. Yes.
And then for the older daters, a lot of them have been married once or twice on this show.

Speaker 1 And I feel like for the older daters, there's just a sense of, I'm afraid to put myself out there or I'm dating the same way I always have. I feel like women can't make the first move.

Speaker 1 And so for those older daters, I spent a lot of time, especially the women, telling them to throw out that outdated rule book and really date for how people people date now.

Speaker 2 It's just so intimidating because I know how hard it is to change the smallest of habits. Now you're asking people to adjust and change in the most vulnerable of habits.

Speaker 2 And I think the older we get, the more stubborn we get to change. And the fact that you're able to do that, I mean, it's...
a testament to you and your skill. And it sounds so scary.

Speaker 1 It really is. And yeah, there's a metaphor I like to use that.
Like when you're in your 20s and you meet someone, you're both like these

Speaker 1 unformed things that come together. So it's sort of like a startup, like you and your partner come together and you're like, we're going to build a life together.

Speaker 1 And you're still very much becoming who you're going to become. And then when you're older, you're really a complete being.
And so is the other person.

Speaker 1 And so unlike a startup, it's like two companies coming together for a merger. And these mergers, as you know, are notoriously hard because it's like, who's going to be the CEO?

Speaker 1 Who's going to be the head of HR? And so for these older folks, you know, some of them have lived alone for 20 years.

Speaker 1 And the idea of combining closets, combining fridges, what time do we set the alarm in the morning? That's really hard for them. And so I think

Speaker 2 I relate to that so much right now. I'm like, 20 years, if I was alone for 20 years, I don't know if I, because I've been single for three years.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I interrupted you, but I've been single for three years and not dating nothing by choice. And

Speaker 2 I get. afraid now.
I'm very happy where I am right now. I'm not, I don't think I'm ready to date at the moment, but I'm like, gosh, I can't even imagine sharing my bed, my remote, my household.

Speaker 2 Like, don't throw me off my routine.

Speaker 1 Well, that was one of the things I was thinking about as I was preparing for this is like, you have such a full life. Like, I feel like you're this amazing businesswoman.
You're a great mom.

Speaker 1 You have great friends and family. Like, do you need someone in your life for this romantic role? Like, is that something that you're looking for?

Speaker 2 Right now, no. Like, even when I took a quiz that you suggested, would you say it's a personality quiz?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I have like three dating tendencies,

Speaker 1 different types of daters. It's a framework that I came up with.
And yes, you took it and I have your results.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, we're going to go through that later. I'm excited.
But I know if I wanted to date, I would right now. I just don't feel that there's this emptiness in my life in that regard.

Speaker 2 And I think when you have young kids, at least for me, it's really hard for me to even,

Speaker 2 because I can't go, I can, but I don't want to go out to a restaurant with someone that I've just met because then I'm linked to this person and it turns into some bigger thing.

Speaker 2 I don't have the average person's issues, so I know they're, they're one-offs, but and I don't want to bring someone to my home because my children are there and I just don't want to introduce my kids to someone unless I've, they've been in my life for, I would say, at least six months or something like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, and I'm not going to their house because what if they murder me?

Speaker 1 There's always that, there's always that thought.

Speaker 2 So I'm not there yet. I imagine when I am, I guess I'll figure it out.

Speaker 1 That's super interesting. Like what comes to mind for me is like, you need like a third space

Speaker 1 between like the out the external world, your home.

Speaker 1 I don't know what that would be, but maybe it's like a friend's house who's out of town a lot and you do dates at their house or something like that.

Speaker 2 It's so funny. My sister and I, we always say, we need a crash pad, like a bachelorette pad, not to, you know, hook up, but just like a safe space.
Like, okay, you want to have dinner?

Speaker 2 We're going to have it here. Because also, if I'm like getting a hotel room, that's

Speaker 2 It sends the wrong message.

Speaker 1 Well, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 I think, in some ways, your dating life might must be so different from most people's, but in other ways, it's like you're a mom with young kids, and you're dealing with the same thing as other young moms, which is this feeling of, well, if I'm going to spend a night away from my kids, it better be worth it.

Speaker 1 Right. And then it sets the bar really high.
Versus, I imagine if you were dating in your 20s, you'd be like, oh, well, we'll see how this is.

Speaker 2 Oh, it was so much easier in my 20s. And I would go out and just whatever.
And it's not a big deal. And I don't know even if it would be that big of a deal at my age if I didn't have kids.

Speaker 2 I think the children factor is what makes everything so different. Right.
For me.

Speaker 1 And probably even on the first date, you're like, how would they be around my children? Are they ready to be around my children? Is this somebody I want to be around my children?

Speaker 1 It just does change the game.

Speaker 2 It really does. Oh, God.

Speaker 1 But what, like, when you think about your life, like in a year or two, if you found someone, like, what role are they playing in your your life? Because, as we said,

Speaker 1 your life is really full and like many of your needs are met by your OSOs, your other significant others.

Speaker 2 So, I am what people probably don't think about me. I'm actually very traditional in a relationship.
Like, I like the man to be the man, like, lead.

Speaker 2 I always want to make the man feel like the man. Like, even if someone makes more money than the other, I would never put that in someone's face or have them feel a certain way.

Speaker 2 I'm just not that person.

Speaker 2 But what would that, like, I don't need a man for anything, but I want them for companionship, I would think, and just to live life with and create memories with. I do want the help with my kids.

Speaker 2 Like I want my kids to see that there's a mommy and a daddy, even if it's not their dad.

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 1 it totally makes sense.

Speaker 2 And so it's sort of like for you, maybe making the distinction between like, there's an empty spot in my bed that I eventually want to fill, but that doesn't mean I'm taking anything away from my ex in terms of the kid's father right it's just another person to love them and that's how my mom my dad and my stepdad did that seamlessly like I never felt like my stepdad was coming in and taking my father's place my father was never excluded from anything and my stepdad was never he never cared if we called him dad or Bruce or whatever he was so chill and fantastic about everything that it made us proud to have all three of them around.

Speaker 2 And then, even when my dad would have different girlfriends, we all really liked most of them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's why I'm like, it's not about replacing, it's like adding an additional person to your life. But it does feel like you kind of have to decide that you want to date.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if you're there yet.

Speaker 2 I don't think I am there yet. It really makes me nervous.
But I also think it makes me nervous just because all the stuff I've been through. Like I'm more,

Speaker 2 it's probably mainly, yes, about my kids is the number one, but then the next thing is like, oh, it's just so scary. How do you know that that's not going to happen again?

Speaker 1 Do you ever think about like, if you weren't famous, if you weren't who you were, like what your life would be like? Oh, all the time. And like, what is that image in your head?

Speaker 2 I think I would, because I've always loved kids. I think I would definitely be doing something with kids.
I wanted to be a school teacher or some sort of educator for kids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That I probably should be doing that.

Speaker 2 But I always wanted to do something like that with kids and

Speaker 2 otherwise just like be at home with my family.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's just so interesting because I feel like you get to have a lot of opportunities because of who you are. But then I imagine it does make dating just distinctly harder.

Speaker 2 I think so. Yes.
I mean, but then I see so many other people doing it or like they're just so seamlessly from one relationship to the next. I'm like,

Speaker 2 how do they do this?

Speaker 1 I think most people are having a hard time. Like, I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis.

Speaker 2 And why do you think that is?

Speaker 1 I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable. Like, oh, I went on a date with this girl.
I didn't text her back. She got mad.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'll just match with someone else. Like, I just don't think that we're really valuing each other.

Speaker 1 And I'm also just hearing like a lot of people that are so focused on career that I think it's great to be focused on career.

Speaker 2 I'm focused on career.

Speaker 1 You're focused on career, but it's like, you also need to make time for relationships if that's something that you're looking for. Right.
And so, yeah, you know, you mentioned the thing around like.

Speaker 1 You didn't say exactly like this, but it's like you'll probably make more money than the person that you date, but then you still want that traditional relationship.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of people are struggling with that right now because the majority of college graduates are women. Many women are making more than the men that they're dating.

Speaker 1 And I think that we haven't totally caught up to that.

Speaker 2 And so it's like, it can feel very emasculating for the man and for the woman they're like i want them to take me out but i make more than them right and i don't think people have figured out how to navigate that but i also think that there is not all women but i've noticed from some of my friend groups that some women like to hold that they are making more as a power move yeah where for me i think i feel like i don't like i don't want to do that because i would hate if someone did that to me yeah and i like if we go out like there's certain things you could do, either if you have,

Speaker 2 you want to have a joint credit card or even just like pass the credit card on to your man before you get to the camera. That's what I've heard.
That's what I've heard.

Speaker 1 My, my friend is like a personal finance guy, Ramit Seti.

Speaker 1 And he was saying how like this couple that he was coaching, the woman would give the guy she was dating her credit card before the date because she wanted to have that experience of him putting the credit card out, even though it was hers.

Speaker 1 And like part of me is like, that's so silly. You're playing pretend.
And the other part is like, no, you're getting what you want, but you're still covering it.

Speaker 1 And I think a mistake that people make in modern dating is trying to find their personality twin.

Speaker 1 And then oftentimes, like, if you're life of the party, you don't need another life of the party person. Like two of you in the room, same room is too much.

Speaker 1 And I think people really need to think about finding your compliment. Yeah.
And so I wonder for you, like, what that looks like.

Speaker 2 So the first thing I would want in any relationship is to feel safe. I think especially like now the older I am, I turn 40 this year and I feel like

Speaker 2 I'm over, like I don't want to be worried about what you're doing. And I don't know if that's just like a forever

Speaker 2 feeling, but I don't think so. I think that most people feel like secure in their relationships and they're like, no, we're good.

Speaker 2 And also I'm so busy, like I'm not, I don't have time to worry about

Speaker 2 my kids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Safe, but I love to laugh and I like to be silly and just lighthearted and dance around my house. Like, I like someone that

Speaker 2 can be a homebody, but also be really lively within the home. Like, I don't want you to be a recluse, but you're some Debbie Downer.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I don't mind a homebody, but like, let's dance or we could have people over. I just don't like to be out on the town.
Yeah. But within my home, I'll do whatever you want to do.

Speaker 1 I love that. It's like life of the party, but the party is your house.

Speaker 2 Yes, exactly. That's great.

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Speaker 1 I have this question I like to ask people, who is your penthouse person? So a penthouse person is like someone in your life who really raises your energy.

Speaker 1 When you walk away from them, there's pep in your step. You love being around them.

Speaker 2 But the opposite sex?

Speaker 1 No, this can be a friend. And then a basement person is someone like where you walk away and you're kind of like, oh, I feel worse about myself.
Like, I don't know what it is. I feel a little anxious.

Speaker 1 You don't have to tell me who your basement person is, but you can think of someone. But can you think of someone who's your penthouse person where you just feel very energized by being with them?

Speaker 2 All my siblings and my mom.

Speaker 1 Like, how do you feel when you're around them?

Speaker 2 Well, depend, I would say 90% of the time if we're not like feuding or something like that. But when I see them, I get like really smiley and excited to see them and giddy.

Speaker 2 And most of my, like, we're very supportive and we're always encouraged, like we're each other's cheerleaders.

Speaker 2 So like i just saw my sister kylie when i walked in here and she was like oh i'm so excited for today for you and like we were just like pumping each other up and that made me feel really good i was like fuck yes i'm gonna hang out with logan like it's gonna be great but it felt good where you know i don't know she doesn't nobody takes me down sibling wise so let's say that kylie is your penthouse person it's like in dating i think a lot of times people come in with this checklist especially as they get older the list gets longer yeah must be this tall must have this job must have this type of family.

Speaker 1 But instead, I really encourage people to think about what side of you does that person bring out and how do you feel around them.

Speaker 1 So if you're like Kylie or some of my other siblings are my penthouse people, when I'm around someone, I want them to bring out that confident, smiley side of me.

Speaker 1 And I think that that shift really helps people because they sort of stop paying attention to what's on paper in the resume. and they really pay attention to how do I feel around them.

Speaker 1 And I think that's something that people have just lost sight of. Like paying attention to how you feel in your body, I think is so underrated.

Speaker 1 Like I remember when I was interviewing at two different companies and it was so easy to say, well, this company will give me this perks and this company will give me that perk.

Speaker 1 But then when I actually thought about like how I felt in those interviews, it was so obvious which company I should work for.

Speaker 1 I think we have a hard time really ignoring those shinier on-paper traits and really paying attention to what's my penthouse person and what's my penthouse job and things like that.

Speaker 2 It's interesting you say that because in terms of work, I've done that the older I've gotten. I've had job opportunities with certain people and I'm like,

Speaker 2 honestly, that person makes me feel so bad about myself. And not all money is good money.
I just, I would rather say no and move on. And I feel like God will bless me with something else.

Speaker 2 And normally, I would say actually every time I've done that, I've been, I don't know if the term term is rewarded, but I've been blessed with something better and with so much more of an amazing person that owns that company or whatnot.

Speaker 2 And so in that regard, I do think I listen to myself and I agree with you completely. But with dating, for me at least,

Speaker 2 I think either I meet someone and I could tell

Speaker 2 probably in the beginning, like, I don't want to hang out with this person again or, or sure, but

Speaker 2 don't you think it takes a minute to really know how you're feeling on the inside? Because sometimes the honeymoon stage is

Speaker 1 so blissful. I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is fuck the spark.
And that's really based on this idea that so many of the people that I would coach would come to me and say, I met this guy.

Speaker 1 He was great. We had a good time.
I'm never going to see him again.

Speaker 1 Why? And then I would say, why? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark.

Speaker 1 And so it was like this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks and feeling like I'll know it when I see it. And I think that that actually holds people back.

Speaker 1 And so many of the best relationships that I've experienced that other people are in really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time.

Speaker 2 Well, speaking of that, isn't that similar to what you went through with your husband? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Yes.
I definitely think that I'm blessed with a slow burn relationship.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 You know, it's interesting. I work at a dating app, but my husband and I first met in college and we just had a random lunch one day.

Speaker 1 And then seven years later, we were both working at Google and he said hi. And then I had this lunch for people who went to Harvard, who worked at Google.
And we sort of just became friends.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, I was chasing this other guy that I had met at Burning Man.

Speaker 1 Have you ever been to Burning Man?

Speaker 2 I haven't, but I know all of you. You know about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's like, of course, you like fall in love at Burning Man and everything's like so intense.
And so it's like met this great guy, but was not thinking about him.

Speaker 1 I was was really chasing this guy from Bernie Man.

Speaker 1 And when I look back, I have so much empathy for that version of myself, but I really was in pain where when you really, really like someone and they don't like you back, instead of just accepting it, I just went through all these mental hoops to try to get him to like me.

Speaker 1 And it's like, yeah, I feel sad about it. It's like, how can I convince this person that I'm worthy?

Speaker 1 How can I

Speaker 1 make this person fall for me? Instead of the advice that I would give that person now, which is if they're not choosing you, then they're not the right person for you.

Speaker 2 I think we've all done that, though. We've all sang for our supper, if you will.
And it sucks.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it really sucks because you're like, oh, I'm not good enough. Instead of like, we're not the right match.
Right. And like, how can I prove I'm good enough?

Speaker 1 Like, this person is now the person who can evaluate me. So then I was so upset about this whole situation with this guy from Burning Man.
I remember like crying on my friend's couch.

Speaker 1 And then he was like, you know, I really think you should see a dating coach. And then I ended up seeing my own coach.
Wow. And so this was before I did like the kind of work I do now.

Speaker 1 And this woman really helped me understand what I wanted in a relationship and how I wanted someone to make me feel.

Speaker 1 And when I thought about how I wanted someone to make me feel, you know, it was desired and valued and secure, I realized I felt the opposite with this Burning Man guy.

Speaker 1 He made me feel insecure and not valued.

Speaker 1 But this guy at work who had been tutoring me in the statistical programming language was so funny he made me feel those things and it was kind of like how familiar are you with the movie clueless obviously okay very so you know like towards the end of the movie she's like walking down i feel like she's shopping somewhere in la and then she like is near um some sort of fountain and she's like oh my god like it's him it's been him like i kind of had that moment where i was like it's this guy from work he makes me feel these ways and so you know we started hanging out a little bit more And then eventually I was like, hey, I don't have plans on Friday.

Speaker 1 You should ask me out, which is, I asked him out.

Speaker 1 And then, yeah, and then that really became our love story. And that was 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 And so I feel like I had been chasing these sparky guys who were, you know,

Speaker 1 so dynamic and charismatic. And as soon as you meet them, you want to be around them more.
But instead, I married this slowburn guy who I feel like not everyone else saw how special he was.

Speaker 1 But 10 years later, I'm like, I feel like I won the lottery.

Speaker 2 And you did. Yeah.
And I'm sure everyone is like, we need the slowburn.

Speaker 1 Right. But I want to train people to look for the slow burn because, like, the spark is so attractive.
And I feel like there's all these myths of the spark.

Speaker 1 Like, one is that if it's the right person, you'll feel instant chemistry. And that's just not true.
Sometimes you have to get to know someone more.

Speaker 1 I'm sure you have people like this in your life where every time you see them, you like them more and more because they open up.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Versus some people are super sparky when you meet them and you're like, oh, I really felt something with that guy. And then your friend's like, I really felt something with that guy too.

Speaker 1 It's like, no, that guy's just really sparky. Right.
And it can feel confusing. And sometimes that spark is actually anxiety and alarm bells that we mistake for butterflies.

Speaker 1 And then the third myth is that if you have a spark at the beginning, then it's going to be a great long-term relationship. And that's not true.

Speaker 1 Think about how many relationships start with a spark and then burn out really quickly.

Speaker 1 And a lot of people that I've met, they stay with the wrong person because they met the right way.

Speaker 1 What do you mean by that? It's like people are just so obsessed with the love story. Got it.
Like, I was supposed to get on this flight, but I missed it. And then he was in line with me at TSA.

Speaker 1 And if I had made that flight, and it's like they love telling that story and they're ready to tell that story in their vows, but then they reject the fact that like this relationship's actually not that good.

Speaker 1 And I think, like, you know, I love Disney movies, I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important

Speaker 1 and if you're with someone for 50 years the day that you meet is point zero zero five five percent of your total time together right so who cares how you met right you can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship do you feel like you're guilty of falling for the spark yes like what does it feel like for you well i

Speaker 2 I got married in 30 days of meeting. That's pretty sparky.
Yeah, meeting my first husband. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We met and then I actually, when he proposed, we got married nine days later. So,

Speaker 2 yes, guilty. Yeah.
Take me to jail.

Speaker 2 But I agree. It's,

Speaker 2 you don't know someone. I also wouldn't change it.
I also love that experience. And it was one of like the best experiences of my life.
And I loved that. But I

Speaker 2 don't

Speaker 2 think I'll never say never, but I don't think I would ever do that again. Yeah.
I hope not.

Speaker 2 because you really don't know the person, and yes, the spark does, it goes fast as fast as it started, it can also dwindle just as quickly.

Speaker 2 But I feel like with others,

Speaker 2 I've done both. I've taken some time, but I've also

Speaker 2 gone headfirst. I do feel my history is probably more of a headfirst type of gal.

Speaker 2 So, what I've done intentionally this time is taken a break from dating and I really wanted to work on myself and focus on my kids, but also I felt like I was way too fragile of a person and I lost so much of who I was.

Speaker 2 I lost my confidence and so many layers of myself that I had years ago. And so I really wanted to get that version of myself back, maybe,

Speaker 2 you know, the

Speaker 2 4.0 version, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, what number are we at? For my 40.
That's why I was like the 4.0 version.

Speaker 2 But I really wanted to get the more mature, different version, but the better version of myself.

Speaker 2 And so intentionally, I wasn't dating because it's so easy to be an avoidant and distract and hang out with men because that feeling feels good. It does.
And just to have the love.

Speaker 2 And I've been there and I've done that. But it hasn't worked out great for me in the past.
That's why this time I wanted to try something different.

Speaker 2 And I really like, I like where I am right now in my life. I really do.

Speaker 2 But I I do know

Speaker 2 I believe in love. I believe in the happily ever after.
I do, I'm not cynical. I do think someone's out there for me.
I just don't know if right now is my time. And it could be fear.

Speaker 2 It could be that I'm avoiding getting back into that.

Speaker 2 dating pool, but it's just where I'm comfortable right now.

Speaker 1 Well, it's so interesting because I almost wonder if you overcorrected if you're like, all right, 2.0 version of myself jumped headfirst into relationships.

Speaker 1 so 4.0 version needs to really slow down yes but perhaps you've slowed down too much too much because if we're allowed to talk about your quiz results oh tell me yeah so you your quiz results suggested that you are a hesitator okay and so a hesitator is someone who's not putting themselves out there and dating because they feel like oh I'm not a hundred percent who I want to be yet and I want to work on myself more and then I'll be ready to date.

Speaker 1 And for you, it might be, I want to just really focus on motherhood in this time or this just isn't the moment. And so for the hesitator, it's like they have an identity of I'm not a dater right now.

Speaker 2 That's spot on. 100%.
I don't put myself out there. I haven't been on one date, like not one for years.
Like I don't,

Speaker 2 yes, like I don't even think I'm looking. I'm not interacting with the opposite sex.
Like unless you're already in my life, a friend of mine. Right.
But I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 Closed for business. Don't talk to me.

Speaker 1 If you met a great guy and I truly don't know how you're meeting strangers, like, would you feel open to it?

Speaker 2 You're like, stranger, danger. I know, stranger, danger.
I, and what's crazy is, I tell myself or my friends when they ask me, are you open to it? I'm like, yes, I'm open to it. But where am I?

Speaker 2 Like, if I'm

Speaker 2 really laying it out there, I don't even go anywhere, I think, to be open to it.

Speaker 1 Okay, so this, I was thinking before our conversation, like, where would you meet people? It's like, you're not going to be on an app. I don't think that.

Speaker 2 So people always ask me if I'm on Ryan. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like a

Speaker 1 application only. It does tend to attract like certain celebrities or athletes, but it's like, I just, I can't really see you with where you are in life, like being on an app.

Speaker 2 I can't either. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so like, wait, this idea just like popped into my head. Okay.
Okay. Imagine if you're like two

Speaker 1 weekdays a month. I'm going to have a dinner party in my house and I'm going to ask friends to bring random people, guys,

Speaker 1 like men and women, like not like putting pressure on it, not making it into a dating show.

Speaker 1 And then just putting yourself in situations where you're meeting more people, like safe people that someone's vouching for.

Speaker 1 And it's not a one-on-one date where you feel like, okay, like, am I going to introduce them to my kids?

Speaker 1 Or this is awkward that I have a man over, but just exposing yourself to more new people in a safe way where you can see how they interact with you and other people.

Speaker 1 And then through that, maybe just like expanding your network and one of those people you'll have a crush on.

Speaker 2 So what's crazy is I say that all the time. I'm like, I used to do Taco Tuesdays.
Oh, cute. Like every week.

Speaker 2 And it was called Tattle Free Tuesdays because I was like, whoever comes, and if you guys want to smooch in the corner, like nobody's talking, who cares? It was just what I did before kids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, but my friends were always like, when are you doing Taco Tuesdays again? I'm like, it's a different version. But it wasn't like.
anything wild. It was just fun and everyone had their fun.

Speaker 2 Like we all left our phones at the door and it was just

Speaker 2 playing games. And I always say, let's do that.
And people bring other people, but I never follow through.

Speaker 1 That's what I feel like you need because you're just not going to be meeting people out and about. Most of the things that I would tell most people do not apply to you.

Speaker 1 But I think that if you can do it within your house, you feel safe, you're curating the environment, and then people are bringing people to meet you, both as friends and potential partners.

Speaker 1 I think it's kind of a way to slow roll into it.

Speaker 2 And I, as much as I don't trust a lot of people, I really like talking with people. Like, I find other people fascinating.
So, even just

Speaker 2 doesn't have to be on a romantic level. I do enjoy, like, I find human behavior fascinating.
I really do.

Speaker 2 And I just like to engage with other people.

Speaker 1 And imagine, so, okay, like a while ago, my friend and I did these dinners called Intrigued, where, like, imagine, well, this is more my life than your life, like, you're at a conference and you meet someone and you want to see them again, but it's like too forward to say, do you want to get a drink?

Speaker 1 And you're not ready to hang out one-on-one. But then you text them and you say, like, I find you intriguing.
I'm going to bring you to this intrigue dinner with other people that we find intriguing.

Speaker 1 So you're already like very flattered. And then you come and you already have a good impression of everyone because you're like, they're all so intriguing.

Speaker 1 And then you meet and you just have this interesting conversation. I love that.
Like, I can just see you or you and a friend or you and a family member doing that.

Speaker 1 And it's a way to bring what we call weak ties into your life. So it's like, you know, who your own small circle knows, but who are like the next level, who's the next layer?

Speaker 1 And how can you bring like new people and new energy into your life in a way that feels safe?

Speaker 1 You're probably at your best in your house, not when you're like, you know, worrying about paparazzi or something.

Speaker 1 It's like, how can you be the most comfortable, authentic version of Chloe and bring people in and see like, do they fit in my home? Does this feel comfortable?

Speaker 2 No, I love that. And I'm always like, oh, it's getting late.
Got to go home. But when I'm at home, I'm like, oh, I'm fine.
I don't know what I'm getting home. Yeah, yeah.
Like, I just like to be.

Speaker 1 I think that's a cool way to like ease yourself back into the waters. Because for my hesitators, the people who get that on the quiz, I'm like, you kind of have an identity of I'm not dating.

Speaker 1 And then it's hard to welcome new romantic energy into your life. Whereas if you say, I'm open to dating, you know, I haven't dated in a while, but I'm open to it.

Speaker 1 I do think that energetically things change. Because right now, if you just think I'm not dating, I feel like things won't change.

Speaker 2 And do you think there's anything wrong? Let's just say I do this and I'm like,

Speaker 2 I don't think I'm there yet. Let's say.
Do you think there's anything wrong with someone taking like five years off of any

Speaker 2 romantic, physical,

Speaker 2 like any sort of dating, let's say?

Speaker 1 I don't have rules around like do or don't take time off. It really depends what your goals are.

Speaker 1 Like if your goal is to find someone and to have that companion, then I would say, why put a false amount of time on it where you have to wait to date?

Speaker 1 But if you really tell me, like, I just want to focus on my kids, like, I know this is what I want, then I would say, take all the time you need.

Speaker 1 But for hesitators, I often just like to say to them, like, imagine that a year from now, like, you were in this great relationship. Like, tell me about waking up in the morning.

Speaker 1 Tell me about drinking coffee with this person. And they often get really excited about that possibility.

Speaker 2 See, that doesn't make me excited right now.

Speaker 2 I get anxious thinking of that.

Speaker 2 Like, I get up at five. I have things to do.
Yeah. Like, you're freaking me out.

Speaker 1 But then, but like, no, no, no, that's good. I mean, you may not want it, but it's like, what are the moments where you're like, it would be great to have somebody to tell about my day?

Speaker 1 It would be great to

Speaker 1 share this moment with someone.

Speaker 2 To be honest, like, because the evenings,

Speaker 2 everyone's going to think I'm nuts. Because in the evenings, I'm like, oh, thank God my kids are asleep.
I have like an hour I can watch something on TV.

Speaker 2 And then like, like, I just like also my quiet time. The moments are

Speaker 2 when there's a vacation, or if I would like every now and again, maybe to go to like a dinner with someone or just do an activity with somebody else.

Speaker 2 But I don't mind being the only single one too when people are, I'm not that person that's like, I'm the third wheel. I'm like, hell yeah, I'm the third wheel.
Like, I find that I'm not.

Speaker 2 insecure about that stuff.

Speaker 2 But then I would say when I

Speaker 2 social media, if I'm like scrolling and I'm seeing, you know, people that have been married 50 years or when they're really old, that's when I'm like, I can't be, I'm not going to be alone when I'm really old.

Speaker 2 I, my, my mom always says when my kids are gone, I'm really going to be like, damn, I wish I had someone and feel really alone because I put so much into my kids. But I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, what I'm hearing from you is that your life is just so full that you feel really happy most of the time with the way things things are. There's nothing missing.

Speaker 1 And then, in fact, when you have the solo time, it's kind of just a chance to recharge. So you don't see a moment where you're like, I need a man here, or like insert another human there.

Speaker 2 The only time I did was during the fires, and I was like, I'm evacuating and with two kids, and I had to get my daughter's two cats.

Speaker 2 But my brother lives right down the street, and I'm like, come over, and he's helping me load my car.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that's really the only time I was like, shit, I wish wish I had someone, even just because I'm, you know, stone cold to my kids, like, oh, everything's fine.

Speaker 2 And I'm acting, I wish I had someone even next to me. Like, what the fuck? Are we going to be fine? Like that, where I'm just doing it by myself.

Speaker 2 And it's more an internal. I wish I did have a partner, I think, when tragedies arise, but how often is that?

Speaker 1 Well, what I was going to say is like, you're doing great. You don't need someone else.

Speaker 1 But the thing about relationships is I feel like a lot of the beautiful ones are like many years of being together.

Speaker 1 And so it's sort of like, maybe that's something where you want to start it now so that you can grow together and grow old together.

Speaker 1 But what I'm hearing you say is like, you don't need someone right now. And in that case, I would say like, maybe wait until you feel like you really have space for it.

Speaker 3 You know, we always talk about relationship red flags. the things to avoid.
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Speaker 2 I do like your idea about having people come over, and I don't think there's any harm in that either way.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Because I do like people, and I think it would add a little more life to my

Speaker 1 I just imagine being a celebrity can be very isolating. It is.
Because everyone you meet, you have to say, like, what do they want from me? And like, are they on the payroll? And like, all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And it's like, if you can create a space where academics are coming into your life or like somebody's really interesting artist friend, just expanding your network a little bit more to expose yourself to new people, I think that that's where a connection is going to come from.

Speaker 1 It's like, that's why you want to have this podcast, right? Cause you're trying to like meet new people and have deep conversations.

Speaker 1 It's like you could have a partner where they're saying to you, oh my goodness, let me tell you about this science experiment that I just read about and the crazy stuff happening with quantum computing.

Speaker 1 And you'd be like, cool, I didn't know about that.

Speaker 1 It's like, I think that right now when you imagine a relationship, you said it gave you anxiety because you're like, I wake up at five, I have things to do.

Speaker 1 It's like, I think you're imagining what it would take away from you, which maybe is like time, freedom, things with your kids. But I also want you to think about what it would give to you.

Speaker 2 I know. I need to think more positively in that aspect.
I really do.

Speaker 1 I don't want to push you if you don't feel like you're ready for it now, but I do think that relationships in general, the research shows, make people happier, make people healthier.

Speaker 1 And I think that we think about financial fitness, we think about mental health, and we think about physical fitness, but there's also social fitness.

Speaker 1 And I think that there's something about love relationships that's really special.

Speaker 2 And I love love, like that feeling of being in love, I think is the most beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 And people are always so surprised when I say how much I believe in love and like that I know I'm going to be married again one day and have my happily ever after.

Speaker 2 I don't know why people expect me to be really cynical and like, fuck love, but I'm not.

Speaker 1 I think it's amazing. Well, it's like maybe you're a romantic who's just fallen head over heels a few times and is like, now I need to hold myself back.

Speaker 1 And that is kind of like, what's the in-between that feels good for you? And 4.0.

Speaker 2 You know what I think it is? I don't know if I trust myself anymore. Yeah.
And before, I don't think I questioned

Speaker 2 my

Speaker 2 picking.

Speaker 1 What does not trusting yourself mean?

Speaker 2 Well, my track record hasn't been great. Yeah, yeah.
But in a pretty volatile, traumatic

Speaker 2 way. Not violent like that, but just it's so,

Speaker 2 it's really crashed and burned that I'm like, okay, what,

Speaker 2 what did I not see? There was a lot of red flags in hindsight, right? But at the time, I was like, oh, everything looks green to me. Let's go.

Speaker 1 I think that's pretty common.

Speaker 1 Like people who stop trusting their guts, who are like, those red flags were waving in my face and I didn't notice them, then they pull themselves back because they're like, I can't trust my instincts.

Speaker 1 But I think there's another way to look at it or reframe, which is, I'm going to get myself more dating experience so that I get better at it.

Speaker 1 And I think dating really is a skill and that you can get better at it over time. But the only way to get better at dating is by dating.

Speaker 2 I also agree with what you're saying, that we are exposed to too much. And

Speaker 2 you were saying earlier, like people are more

Speaker 2 not, people think people are more disposable.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think relationships lasted so much longer back back in the day because even if somebody did something that

Speaker 2 was not

Speaker 2 respectful in their relationship,

Speaker 2 probably you were never going to know about it. If you don't know, it doesn't hurt you.

Speaker 2 Like if you were, you know, how people like someone else's photo or like will be viewing someone's page. That's the same thing if a guy was like, oh, that waitress is hot.
Like you wouldn't know.

Speaker 1 There's truly a lot more ways to cheat now. Right.
Like with texting, with sexting, with OnlyFans.

Speaker 1 It's like actually just the amount of different ways that you could sort of be disloyal to someone have increased.

Speaker 2 It doesn't even have to be that severe. Like now, a girl, of court, and rightfully so, girls will be like, why are you on that girl's page? And like, she'll break up with someone.
And that's

Speaker 2 fine. That's your boundaries.
But back in the day, if someone was like

Speaker 2 with his friends, oh, that girl's hot, you got away with it. And because that your girlfriend or wife wouldn't know about it.
So

Speaker 2 it could be that minor, but now people do discard people so easily. But if those are your boundaries, they're your boundaries.
But I do think social media is a very, very tricky place. It really is.

Speaker 2 And you're also fantasizing because how we had Disney movies, they now have, you follow these couples on Instagram and you're like, oh, it's this fairy tale. Look how beautiful.

Speaker 2 And behind the scenes, they're miserable and they hate each other.

Speaker 1 One of my favorite things about my husband is that he doesn't use social media at all. I love that.
Like, isn't that so sexy? I love that. Because he doesn't need other people to tell him his worth.

Speaker 1 Yes. And he's not keeping track of other people and comparing and despairing.
So some of you.

Speaker 2 If it wasn't for my job, I wouldn't have social media because I

Speaker 2 don't want you. chiming in on something about

Speaker 1 it's hard to perform

Speaker 1 I think it's like hard like this is something I'm really studying with Gen Z is like this idea of like surveillance culture and like if you live in public like I think back to high school and like mistakes that I made.

Speaker 1 And it's like, if somebody had been shooting an Instagram story at the time, like, and I had been in the background, like. who knows what would have happened.

Speaker 1 But like, I didn't think about being surveilled. Right.

Speaker 1 And I feel like just reading between the lines of some of the stuff that I do when I interview Gen Z daters, there's like a sense that you're always being watched.

Speaker 1 I think people are just more uptight now. And it's like Gen Z is losing their virginity later.
They're not drinking as much. They're not getting their driver's license as often.

Speaker 1 Like, I think that that it's really important to take risks and to be open to rejection.

Speaker 1 And I think the lack of risk-taking behavior, in some ways, it's great, like less drinking and driving, but I'm also worried.

Speaker 2 Right. And I didn't, I know my nephew and his group of friends, I've noticed that they push off the driver's permit.

Speaker 2 Like, why?

Speaker 1 Like, when I was able to get my license, actually, I'm a bad example of this because I was really afraid of getting my license, but like most people that weren't me were getting their license as soon as they could.

Speaker 2 Oh, I was stealing cars at 14. I needed to drive.

Speaker 1 So with your nephew, what do you think is going on?

Speaker 2 Well, I also think because like of Ubers, those things that are easier for them, and they're like, well, why do I need to take this? That is a good point.

Speaker 2 I do think it's that, which sort of that scares me more than having my kid drive because

Speaker 1 it's a lot of interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I think it's that,

Speaker 2 but it could also be like a fear of rejection or I'm going to fail this. It's too much pressure.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't know. But I, I also notice the

Speaker 2 not drinking thing, but I also notice that younger kids are, or the Gen Z kids, are so much more into health and fitness and like drinking water and what's artificial. And I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I never heard of water until like last year.

Speaker 2 I'm the same. I'm like, what the hell was water in the sparkling water? I'm like, my daughter's six, and all of my nieces drink sparkling water.
I'm like, boo g.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 What are the

Speaker 2 results on your coach?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah. I can go through all of that.

Speaker 2 Yes, I would love to know about it.

Speaker 1 Okay, so when I have coached a lot of different people, I noticed that even though there are different people from different walks of life, they had one thing in common, which was unrealistic expectations.

Speaker 1 And so I designed this framework called the Three Dating Tendencies. So you took that quiz, and people can take it on my website.
So the first one. It's really easy.

Speaker 2 It's easy. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 It takes 10 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So the first one is the romanticizer, which is actually what I thought you were going to be. So the romanticizer is the person who's like, there's a soulmate out there for me.
There's one person.

Speaker 1 When I meet them, I'll know. They're very focused on the we met.

Speaker 1 And what happens to romanticizers is often when they meet someone who's not in the package that they expected, or when the relationship hits that inevitable rough spot, they think, oh, this must not be my person because if it was my soulmate, it would be easier than this.

Speaker 1 So the homework for the romanticizer is to understand that, of course, relationships are hard and and that it doesn't matter how you met, it matters that you met.

Speaker 1 And then the second type, which is a lot of what I deal with with CEOs and people in New York and the Bay Area, is maximizers. I'm sure you know a lot of people like this.

Speaker 1 They have unrealistic expectations of their partner. So they think.

Speaker 1 They come to my house with spreadsheets and they're like, I want the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl, the family of this girl. Like find me someone like that.

Speaker 1 And they're always searching for the perfect person. And they feel like, oh, I'm close, but if I found this girl, I want to find someone even better.
Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1 And so they feel like there's someone perfect out there instead of understanding that you could make it work with many people. It's about choosing someone great and investing in that.

Speaker 1 And that really great relationships are built. They're not discovered.
And so how can you truly find someone great and build it versus just trying to like trade up all the time? Right.

Speaker 1 And then the third type, which is what you were on the quiz, is the hesitator. And they have unrealistic expectations of themselves.

Speaker 1 So they're often feeling like, I'm not ready to date yet, or I'm not exactly who I want to be, or, you know, when my kids are in school, I'll be ready to date.

Speaker 1 When I clean up my apartment, yeah, when I get a different job, when I have more time. And so they are creating these hurdles of, I can't date until this.

Speaker 1 And then once they kind of overcome that hurdle, they move the goalposts and it's another one.

Speaker 1 And so for hesitators, a lot of the work is choosing a date, choosing a deadline and saying, I'm going to start dating, having an identity around being a dater, being open to dating, and really just having some accountability.

Speaker 1 So it's like, can you bring back Taco Tuesdays? Can one of your siblings or one of your friends be like, Chloe, we're doing this.

Speaker 1 It doesn't have to be every Tuesday, but just once a month, we're going to do Taco Tuesday. It's going to be really fun.
It's going to feel safe. And like.

Speaker 1 just creating an environment where you're more open to people entering your life.

Speaker 2 And I feel like I can commit to a once a month tacos Tuesday. Right.
I feel like that's not too crazy. I mean, doesn't that sound fun? I want to eat tacos on Tuesdays.

Speaker 1 Like, that sounds great.

Speaker 1 And having it be something that you're looking forward to instead of something with like a lot of pressure, a lot of sacrifices around it, it's like you're bringing into your home people that you love and then also a few new people.

Speaker 1 It's like sprinkling them in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
Do you think at different parts in someone's life they can change? Because I feel like I used to be the romanticizer. Yeah.
And now I'm the procrastinator.

Speaker 1 I definitely think people can change. Like, there's this concept from the Harvard psychologist, Daniel Gilbert, called the end of history illusion.

Speaker 1 So, if you say to somebody who's 30, how much did you change in the last 10 years? They'll say, so much. I'm totally different.
Then you say, How much will you change in the next 10 years?

Speaker 1 And they'll say, not much. I'm done changing.
And so, it's like people actually change a lot, but their projection is that they won't change that much.

Speaker 1 And so, I think if we just all embrace the fact that we're growing, changing people, I think it helps us understand each other and ourselves more and also be excited.

Speaker 1 And so I think the fact that you're different than you used to be is great and there's a lot of growth in there.

Speaker 2 Well, now

Speaker 2 that you have a baby. Yeah.

Speaker 1 How old is she? She's 14 months. 14 months.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you think because you had a challenging end of your pregnancy that you have even so much more gratitude that you get to hold her and snuggle her every day?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I think when I look around, when I look around and see the stories about motherhood, like this is what I'd say, I'd say pregnancy and labor are harder than people talk about.

Speaker 1 Maybe women don't want to freak other women out, but I think it actually is like a scary thing. Like women are still dying in childbirth.
Right.

Speaker 1 And so I kind of feel like many moms that I've talked to are like, yeah, that was way more real than I expected. But I think motherhood is so much greater than people talk about.

Speaker 1 I had an easy pregnancy. Like I don't know how most people feel, but I actually liked being pregnant.
I felt like

Speaker 1 it kind of like, I don't even know how like evened me out. Like I liked not getting my period.
I shot my TV show when I was pregnant. Like I happen to really like it.

Speaker 1 And then like one day, I just noticed like, oh, my hands are swelling. And I called.
the doctor and I, you know, I spoke to the nurse and she was like, here are the signs of preeclampsia.

Speaker 1 It's like, you know, swelling in your extremities, headaches, some blurriness or floaters in your eyes, like pain like above your stomach, like under your rib cage.

Speaker 1 And I was like, okay, well, I don't really have those. And then like a week later, I just wasn't feeling well.
And I was in the shower and I started going through the symptoms.

Speaker 1 And it was kind of like everything was flashing before my eyes because I was like, wait, I do have floaters right now.

Speaker 1 I do have this pain in my stomach.

Speaker 1 And like as I was in the shower, I started like saying this thing over and over in my head, which was like, I'm going to get out of the shower and say to my husband, like, I don't mean to freak you out, but I think we have to call the nurse's hotline.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 Like, and then, you know, I got out of the shower. I told him, they said, take your blood pressure.
And it was like through the roof. And we were supposed to go to the ballet that night.

Speaker 1 And he was like, oh, I don't want to cross like the bridge to San Francisco, like where I was supposed to give birth. Like, let's just go to the local Berkeley hospital.
So we're like, okay, fine.

Speaker 1 So we just went there. And then like all of a sudden, like everything moved so quickly, they were like, you have severe preeclampsia.
You're admitted to this hospital.

Speaker 1 You're not allowed to leave. Like, you are now a patient of this hospital.

Speaker 2 And, like, you will be how far along were you?

Speaker 1 I was 32 weeks. Oh, my gosh.
Yeah. So they were like, you're not going to leave this hospital.
Like, you, the latest that you would give birth is in two weeks.

Speaker 1 So then, just like everything started happening really fast. And this is like such like a 2023 like tech moment.

Speaker 1 My husband works in tech, but like, I didn't really know how bad things were until my husband went home to get some stuff. And he was like, send me the master password for your one password.

Speaker 1 Like basically for my password manager. And I was like, am I going to die? Like, why do you need my master password?

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I love him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He's really funny.
And so, yeah, basically, like, you know, then things started to look better, but they woke me up. So I went to the hospital at 4 p.m.

Speaker 1 And then they woke me up the next morning at 3 a.m. And they're like, your body is shutting down.
You now have help syndrome. Like, the only cure for this is help syndrome.

Speaker 1 It's basically like a worse version of Bria Clampsy. Oh, wow.
It's like, yeah, it's very dangerous. And so they were like, you need to give birth right now.

Speaker 1 So like I had an emergency C-section at 32 weeks and it was so hard. And she was in the NICU for six weeks.
And I felt like my husband just like was my brain for two months.

Speaker 1 Like I was a body that would move from my bed to the hospital to visit my daughter, but I wasn't making decisions.

Speaker 1 I, the doctors would come talk to us and it was like, I couldn't even understand what they were saying. And like he just handled all the decisions.

Speaker 1 And it's like, when people are looking for someone to be with, I think they say, like, who's fun? Like, who am I attracted to? Like, who do my friends like? It's like, these are the times. Yes.

Speaker 1 It's like, who is going to talk to the doctor on your behalf when you don't have a brain and your child is in the NICU? Right.

Speaker 2 I agree. That's such a beautiful story.
And thank you so much for sharing that. My sister, Kim, had preeclampsia.
And I remember at the none of us, I think, ever heard of it before.

Speaker 2 My mom had six somewhat easy pregnancies and so did Courtney.

Speaker 2 And I just remember like what I flash back to is like this was like the craze of tabloids and everyone making fun of my sister for like her swollen big feet in high heels and her hands.

Speaker 2 And she's like, I'm pregnant. Isn't this normal? But she really, none of us knew.
And she did have pretty fat feet, but like we thought that was what happens in pregnancy.

Speaker 2 We didn't know any different, but just like

Speaker 2 literally, I can Google it now now and you'll see all these posts and you're like, what? And that's why didn't the doctor tell her?

Speaker 1 Like, that's what's so hard is I'm like, I am an educated person. I have access to great medical care, but like I barely knew what preeclampsia was.

Speaker 1 I had not read a single book about pregnancy, about having a kid. I was like, that's what January is for.
And like, she came in December. So like,

Speaker 1 how did I not know what preeclampsia was? And that's one of those things where I'm just like, I do hope that people see this and like know what those symptoms are.

Speaker 1 Like, get a blood pressure machine to check it at home. Like, that was one thing that was helpful for us.
And I wish I checked my blood pressure before.

Speaker 2 No, but like you said, you didn't know about it. And if it weren't for Kim's experience, I don't think I would have known about it probably until this conversation.

Speaker 2 I don't think people talk about it enough.

Speaker 2 That was one thing that I had my son via surrogate. And I do speak about my experience.
It's not all daisies and rainbows with him.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I sometimes I fight myself with that because I don't ever want to make him feel bad the older he gets.

Speaker 2 But I also feel like people should hear this side because you only hear one really great side.

Speaker 2 And I remember I felt like a really bad human being because I was not feeling the way that I would only read about or hear about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I wish there was like more education about some of this stuff.

Speaker 2 Well, you're doing that right now. You really are.
Just people will listen or watch and they will hear your story. And I hope nobody has that.

Speaker 2 But if they have any of these symptoms, at least go get it checked. It never hurts to get things checked.
Well, Logan, I can sit and chat with you all day. This was so nice.

Speaker 2 I'm definitely going to start my Taco Tuesdays. Yay.
Monthly. I love that.
Once a month. I'm ready for that.
But baby steps are still steps. And yeah, just thank you for chatting with me.

Speaker 2 I really think this is going to be so helpful for so many people.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Yes.
Thank you for the opportunity to chat and to get to know you and to share some of these messages with more people. Thank you, Market.