“For The Night” (w/ Charli XCX) - Matt’s Pick for Best of 2024!

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Speaker 1 And as you know, we are going to be taking the next few weeks off, a little winter break for us. But we wanted to use this time to not have the feed be totally empty.

Speaker 1 So we are going to be doing some re-releases. And the intent behind these is to share some episodes that we just want to shine a light on as some of the best of the year.
So this week is my choice.

Speaker 1 And the next week, you're going to hear Bowen's. And then the week after that, our producers, Ana Hasniye and Becca Ramos, have teamed up to choose their top episode of the year.

Speaker 1 This was not a difficult decision for me at all. I have chosen For the Night with Charlie XCX.

Speaker 1 And here's a little bit about why. I mean, I think we can all agree that Brat was the cultural phenomenon of the year.
It just had so much crossover appeal in fashion and music and politics, yeesh.

Speaker 1 But looking back, we did not know that at the time.

Speaker 1 I remember we got Brat a little bit early and I listened to it the morning of our episode and I was really struck by the honesty in Charlie's lyrics, the progression in her music, like I always am, but there was something really different and special about Bratt.

Speaker 1 And if you listen to the episode, a lot of the conversations that we have about, you know, the lyrical content and the ideas that she's engaging in, this episode was the first time where she talked about a lot of that stuff.

Speaker 1 You even hear her say, like, in terms of girls so confusing, we asked her who it's about, and we have like a little bit of a fun back and forth with her about it.

Speaker 1 And she's, you know, she's weighing whether or not to even say who it's about. And then weeks later, obviously, you know, the Lord remix came out.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, just snowballed into this cultural phenomenon that I feel like this had to be the episode that we re-released.

Speaker 1 So I'm super excited to share again with you for the night with Charlie XCX. She also has a lot of interesting, fun things to say about Salt Lake City's last season.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of reaching back to our last episode with Angie too. But I just felt like this was the perfect episode to share with all of you.
And I love Charlie.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the Grammys are coming up. So I guess you can consider this a for your consideration ad as well.
Y'all know how I feel about Brat and how it should be taking out of the year.

Speaker 1 That's just my opinion. But yeah, so this is for the night with Charlie XEX.

Speaker 1 Happy holidays. Thank you all so much.
We'll see you in 2025. Next week is Bowen Yangspic.
But here's Charlie for now.

Speaker 1 Look, man.

Speaker 1 Oh, I see. My eye.
Oh, my. Bowen, look over there.
Wow, is that the culture? Yes, goodness. Wow.
Las culturistas.

Speaker 1 Ding-dong. Las culturistas calling.

Speaker 1 We're off to the races here today. We're off to eat some pretty

Speaker 1 culture.

Speaker 1 More to come. I will say, I'm a little upset about how much almond milk is in this.
Okay, if the cameras are picking this up, listeners at home who can't see this, this is Dunkin' Donuts level

Speaker 1 chicanery. It's pure, it's milk with a little bit of iced coffee in it.
I was going to use the word chicanery too for the record.

Speaker 1 And I just want to say, I wouldn't even want to walk down the street and people think that I have to have coffee like this.

Speaker 1 It's like, if this is just more almond milk than anything, can I get an amen up in here in the words of RuPaul? This is just...

Speaker 1 There's also like a weird pallid color to it. It doesn't have what I would call a healthy looking color.

Speaker 1 And you guys all feel me out there. You want coffee, not milk.

Speaker 1 It looks like chocolate. Thank you, Becca.
It looks like chocolate milk. I was going to say.
Nice quick rabbit ran amok. Last I checked, I wasn't eight years old in my basement.
Bitch.

Speaker 1 Where I would drink chocolate milk on the regular. What's your merch story, Matt? Just with like an artist that you love.
My merch story? I'm wearing merch.

Speaker 1 Bowen, I'm wearing merch.

Speaker 1 Bowen is in Charlie merch. And by the way, it's very cute merch, which I say is a compliment to you, the wearer, and you, the seller.
My merch story is, I'm also currently wearing merch.

Speaker 1 For drive away dolls. This is Focus Features sent us this merch.
And I said, that's cute. And I will wear it on the thing.
I didn't know they were going to do this. They sent it to us.

Speaker 1 And after seeing the movie Challengers, I thought threesome culture is sort of in. I do think that's the year of the threesome.
Of MMF. Of MMF.
Threesome.

Speaker 1 And so I'm just sort of encouraging that here on the podcast. I hope you received.
Who knows what happens today during the episode? I don't think it will be an MMF threesome.

Speaker 1 We've got MMF here. Now, would you say that, like, it's

Speaker 1 between, between,

Speaker 1 let's say, like MMF, two dicks, one badge, right? Sure, sure. Let's just go in with that parameter.
Yeah. I might get so like dick confused that I'm like.
Yeah, of course there's a vagina in the mix.

Speaker 1 Listen, all I know is that it's not shocking. You can't think about it too hard.
I think when it comes to to threesomes, you have to just take it moment by moment. I've had two in my life.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 getting out of my way was important. No, I've had three.
So the first one, I was very in my own way the entire time.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I am doing this with more than one person. And it's a little bit of a brain teaser.
And then the second, you just let that go and you have a wonderful time.

Speaker 1 You know what happened to me the first time? What?

Speaker 1 I was facing forward, facing someone. Great.
True North. And it was True North.
And then

Speaker 1 drum scare behind me. Literally, like, oh, like someone stuck it in? No, they didn't stick it in.
They just kind of

Speaker 1 nestled behind me. And I was like, oh, I forgot.
The crazy thing is when you're facing True North and sort of giving that, aka

Speaker 1 one, one, one. You're a giving partner.
And then all of a sudden, you feel the third kind of... really come through the back and you're like, I'm not in that zone right now.
I need to know.

Speaker 1 So let's just all communicate and take it moment by moment, everyone. And that's sort of our

Speaker 1 challengers. If you want want a little educational video.
But again, you never see any threesome

Speaker 1 challengers. You don't see any penetration.
Anyway. What's penetrated me is the new album? It's a really penetrative album.
Emotionally penetrative.

Speaker 1 Obviously, sonically and physically penetrative in the best way, in a way that I invite and I'm open wide for. Angels, if you're listening, this might be offensive to the guests.

Speaker 1 If you mourn XCX World the way that some of us out here do, this album is going to give you everything you want and more. You're about to party.

Speaker 1 We're about to party. But you're also about to feel, and this is what I love about our guest, and like, it's just so sort of singular and iconic is like.

Speaker 1 What I love is like, you know, like emotional pop music. And you always get our guest's perspective, her POV.
It's always interesting and specific, no matter what it is.

Speaker 1 I was telling Bowen, like, when we were just at Pradamanger, where we have all of our good conversations, I'm a huge fan of our guest's ballads. You're a ballad girl.
Like, I'm a ballad girl.

Speaker 1 and like you give that and I'm just so excited. The new album Brat is coming out June 7th.
June 7th. She's doing the Brat tour and then she's going to the sweat tour with Troy Sivan and then

Speaker 1 yeah. So she's doing Brat, sweat, Brat.
Why are you laughing? It's just so funny that I'm just sat in silent. That you're just sitting there.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I'm not sure when I'm face to say. Well, don't you worry.
I'm bringing you away. One, two, three.
Triaxia.

Speaker 1 That was so fun listening to you guys gab away. We're gabbers.
We can say the same thing about what you gab and sing about on your records. We're having fun too.
Oh, good. You are the most fun.

Speaker 1 You do truly intrinsically understand how to make us have fun. Oh, that's so nice.
We were having fun on the way. You've got a big day.
Got a big day. We're recording this.

Speaker 1 We're going to release it closer to the album release, but you're going on Seth with Troy. Yeah.
And then Watch What Happens Life also with Troy. Are you on with a housewife, do you know?

Speaker 1 No, I'm so sad about that. Oh, you're just on solo? No, it's another man.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I couldn't tell you who it is. Exactly.
No, no. And I love that we will find out later who it is when the episode airs, and we'll be like, oh, that's who.
And I'll be like, it's, I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 It's such a fast. Some of House Martha's Vineyard.
I love that shit. Exactly.
Exactly. Exactly.
No, I don't know. I think his name's Joe.
Joe.

Speaker 1 That's who you sound. Biden.
He sounds good. Joe Biden.
It's you and Joe Biden. And honestly, he's going to ask you to be VP.
Yeah, it's going to be amazing. I'm going to really burn it down.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We were talking here about last time you were on, you were not as versed in the Bravo verse. True.
And now you are all in on Salt Lake City. Exactly.

Speaker 1 So, and you asked us a really important question, which was you want to ask us again. Yeah, my question for you both is: are you pro-Monica or

Speaker 1 Auntie Monica? I'm Thai. Sorry.
No, no, no. That's okay.
We, and the way we answered was Auntie Monica. Auntie, we're Auntie Monica.
We, we were, don't make fun of our guests.

Speaker 1 No, I say, I say auntie as well.

Speaker 1 We

Speaker 1 were, so my answer was in the beginning, when it all went down, we were very anti. We were like, get her off.
Like, like, none of the women won't want to film with her.

Speaker 1 Like, she is not allowed anywhere near them. And then now that they announced that she is no longer there, we're like, oh, it's going to miss something.
The travesty. The travesty.

Speaker 1 My thing is, like, I just want to watch a show where everyone speaks to each other because it gets boring when you have a cast that's like, I'm not talking to her.

Speaker 1 You'll see once you branch out to other franchises, it's like when a cast is like not operating as a group, it's bad.

Speaker 1 And they were also scorched earth with Monica at the end, like unwilling to speak to her.

Speaker 1 Can you give thoughts on Mary Cosby from your Charlie perspective? I mean, this woman is just.

Speaker 1 She's on the album. She's going to be on the automatic.
Yeah. The full remix record is just her.
She's just.

Speaker 1 She is.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't even know where you begin.

Speaker 1 It's like, I love her and I hate her. Sure, but do we all know her? You love her and I hate her.
You love her and you hear her. No, that's totally fair.
My friend saw her at Sunset Tower. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 She plays. And apparently she was really rude to her.
Oh, that truck's cool.

Speaker 1 She was like, my friend was like, oh, can I sit here at the bar? And she was like, no.

Speaker 1 And then my friend was like, do you have someone coming? And she was like, yeah. And then obviously no one came.
And it was just for her bag. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 And then at the same time, I'm like, that's Mary. Legend.
Yeah, legend. Let her do what she wants.
Inbred comment, yeah. I was gonna say, and then she called your friend Inbred or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the inbred comment followed up with Heather asking her, Did you really call me Inbred? And she goes, I did.
I did, I did.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, you dumb bitch. I did.
Do you realize I live? I do. I do.

Speaker 1 And then when they like went through it at the reunion, too, it was so bizarre because Heather was kind of just like threw up her hands and was like, Listen, I respect that she said it.

Speaker 1 She speaks her truth. It's like, can you please just swing one fist? Heather.

Speaker 1 Do we all agree, though? They talk to her like she's five years old. Either she's a mental patient, which she might be, and like she's a five-year-old.
They're afraid of her. They're afraid.

Speaker 1 I mean, she gets a lot of free passes. Yeah.
You know? Because, well, that was funny. When she was on Watch What Happens Live, like they asked her a question, like, why'd you come back?

Speaker 1 And she fully just goes, to help you guys out.

Speaker 1 And I said,

Speaker 1 but again, I mean, love.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Love.
Because you want to know why there's like not a thirsty bone in her body or like a bothered bone in her body because you can tell she doesn't really get it. Right.

Speaker 1 So she's just like going to show up and say whatever the fuck it is. The rumor is now that she called Lisa Barlow's youngest son the R-word.

Speaker 1 That is the rumor that's happening for next season. Thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 You don't have to. I see.
I see. I see.
I can imagine it happening. You can imagine it happening.
Yeah. I can imagine it happening.
I'm fascinated by her wardrobe. Yes.
And the choices.

Speaker 1 And the choices. Many colors, many patterns.
It's like she got dressed in the dark five times in a row. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then she just went out with all of it on.

Speaker 1 And isn't it funny that she's like the fashion girl? She's the fashion girl.

Speaker 1 I mean, the thing is, she's going to come for us. So are you ready? Like, if she hears this, she's coming for us.
I wonder if she cares. I don't think she cares what we think.

Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe. Maybe that would be a chic feud for you, though.
Like a reality. Chic XX and Mary M.
Cosby.

Speaker 1 That's what no one would ever see coming. No, it it would be so good.

Speaker 1 It would be so good. I'm pro-Monica.
You're pro-Monica. That's great.
I just want to pivot back to that. I'm pro-Monica.
And you said to us, you know, what she did wasn't really that bad.

Speaker 1 And we agree, but it would be like if Troy ran a troll account for like an anti-Charlie Troy, like everyone leave after my set. But is

Speaker 1 but is, was she, okay, here's the thing. I'm pretty like flag in the sand on like I'm pro-Monica, but I haven't actually done much research into reality Vonte.
So I'm basing that on nothing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I've heard from friends who I trust dearly that she wasn't really like

Speaker 1 talking shit about the women.

Speaker 1 So she was, it was really more of a Jen Shah thing. Yeah.
And obviously that was her narrative on the show, which I was a little bit like, okay,

Speaker 1 yeah. But, you know, God love her.
But I was like, surely she's using that a little bit.

Speaker 1 But my reliable friends say that that was the case, that she wasn't really talking about the women. I believe you're a reliable friend.

Speaker 1 So then I'm just like, also, I'm like, guys, you're on housewise. Yeah.
You know what it was, though. You know,

Speaker 1 she caught calling Ketsel Black. 100%.
She ran out of steam when it came to defending herself and explaining it.

Speaker 1 Like, I felt like she sort of like threw up the white flag as it were when it was go time. It was like, okay, this is the reunion.
Explain what it was and

Speaker 1 what exonerates you about about this. And it felt like she kind of just took it because she got confused and started to lean into the villain narrative.
Right.

Speaker 1 Thinking that's what people would want when it was like, no, what you want is to stay on the show and they won't film with you unless you can

Speaker 1 get them on board. And then I think she was like gearing up to bring out that burn book prop.
Like she was like prop focused. Ooh, that was rough and a half.
The burn book didn't land. No, no.

Speaker 1 That all went a bit awry, didn't it? I think so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You've got a Mean Girls track on your album. I have.
I love this song. I love love it.
Thank you. Because it really is for that girl.
Thank you. And for gays that are trying to be that girl that day.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know what's interesting about that song is, I'm going to take these off.
Do I have marks? No, you don't. Okay, excellent.

Speaker 1 So the thing is about the Mean Girls song on that album is

Speaker 1 that it's kind of like...

Speaker 1 A fascination with women like that in the culture. Yeah.
Oh, you know what? I was actually totally in my brain talking about a different song on my

Speaker 1 No, I now remember we're talking about mean girls. Yep.
Sorry. No, that really is just about like being a bitch.
Yeah. Which we love.
Which we love.

Speaker 1 What song were you thinking?

Speaker 1 Sorry. I was thinking.
Sorry. I was thinking about

Speaker 1 it all so confusing. Yeah.
I have questions about this. And okay, you don't have to wonder if you have answers.
I think you've already.

Speaker 1 And look, we're not entitled to any information. Okay.
Who's this about? No.

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 Miriam Cosby.

Speaker 1 Totally.

Speaker 1 You know, I haven't. This is early.

Speaker 1 Like, this is the first time I've spoken about this song. You guys are the first people to ask me.
So I haven't quite decided whether I'm revealing

Speaker 1 a problem. When I wrote it, I was like, I'm revealing.
But now, you know, now the time is here. I'm like, oh, am I revealing? Do you think I should reveal? I think.

Speaker 1 Don't, not for your benefit, just in general. I think that whatever is going to...

Speaker 1 I feel like at some point, yeah, in 30 years. My thing is is people are gonna guess yeah I feel like

Speaker 1 we probably both have an accurate guess and I'm not gonna ask you to say it out loud because you'll tell by my face yeah right okay yeah but afterwards I'm an accurately that person right yeah well you know you know right yeah like say it with your eyes

Speaker 1 I think it's yeah okay okay now

Speaker 1 I think I have the same feelings on this frame yes yes yes

Speaker 1 please please please so the thing is it's like I think we live in this like world of of pop music right now where like women are like, I support other women. I love women.
I'm a feminist.

Speaker 1 And that's great. Like, love that.
But there's artifice to it. It's a lot of fun.
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And I don't think that you become a bad feminist if you maybe don't see eye to eye with every single woman. That's just like not the nature of human beings.

Speaker 1 You know, there is a competitiveness between us. There is.
envy, there is camaraderie, there is, you know, all of these different like dynamics.

Speaker 1 And I, I mean, I feel that working in entertainment, there is this kind of dance that we all do with each other,

Speaker 1 whether you're in music, whether in your, you're in your world, like no matter how you identify, there is this dance that everybody's, everybody's watching each other.

Speaker 1 Everybody's like posing in the picture, like, hey, are we guys so nice to see you?

Speaker 1 My collaborator and good friend. Yeah, but then you're also like, I want what they have.
And then the next day you're like, they suck.

Speaker 1 i killed today and this happens but no one really is like willing to discuss it but we've we all probably have our person yeah oh yeah or maybe a few different people and i'm sure we are that person for other people

Speaker 1 and i just find that there is this like strange like unspoken thing that often happens particularly with women because there is such a narrative of pitting women against each other within music.

Speaker 1 And sometimes that's not totally like fabricated. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes there is like, what's the phrase, smoke, where the smoke is fire.

Speaker 1 Like, I do feel like that sometimes does happen. And sometimes it's like, I don't know, everybody's just doing this little like square dance.
Totally.

Speaker 1 Well, like this idea of like, oh, women are pitted against each other. That shouldn't make you feel any worse or more complicated about the fact that like it happens.

Speaker 1 It's not, why is it this red line all of a sudden? Like you're not supposed to get into any other conflict with any other person. Yeah.

Speaker 1 it's unrealistic, it's unrealistic. And you're not saying fuck her, you're saying it's confusing when I feel like

Speaker 1 we got a lot of people saying that we do great stuff together, it feels like the vibe is good, then I'm confused. It's like, am I okay with who the audience might fill in this spot?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, that's the other thing about it. It's like, for me, this is like my favorite part of

Speaker 1 the high artness of music and the low artness of like

Speaker 1 pop star pop discourse. Like, I like the marriage of the two, and I like that maybe people are getting it wrong, but they're like having fun playing the game.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I think that that brings like kind of this three-dimensional world to songs, you know, outside of just like the song's really good.

Speaker 1 It's like it's nice to plant like theories and ideas and let people like live their kind of Paris Lindsay fantasy with it. You know,

Speaker 1 it's fun. But I also think it does this thing of like with the whole record, I'm kind of like doing that in ways.

Speaker 1 It's like holding a mirror to this kind of culture that we're in right now where everybody is really,

Speaker 1 I feel like everybody is like, their moral compass has to be so in check all the time. Right.
But it's like, sometimes it's just like fun if it's not. Yeah.
Totally.

Speaker 1 And everybody, the listeners, like your moral compass isn't always like bang on. Like everybody's a little fucked.
Everybody's like a little like shady.

Speaker 1 Everybody has like thoughts of all these different things. Like

Speaker 1 everyone's kind of a bitch sometimes. And that's okay.
Like it doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you a flawed human being.
Yeah, a dynamic person.

Speaker 1 And we want artists to put that into work too, because it like, I mean, I can't stand the morality thing as it applies.

Speaker 1 Like, but when did pop stars and let's just include and lump in like actors and shit. Like, when did they become like moral paragons?

Speaker 1 Because like at Shadow My Mom, like in the 70s, there would be signs up that said, no actors. It's like, we were like,

Speaker 1 we, like, they were like the rowdy, fucking, like, chaotic people. And that's what like everyone understood them to be.
And it's like, these are not good people. Keep them out.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? And like, maybe that's okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I wonder, like, it's interesting, this celebrity culture, especially over the past like 10, maybe 15 years, has really like changed a lot in that I think niceness became a commodity.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Whereas before,

Speaker 1 niceness wasn't cool. Right.
You know, it wasn't like cool to be nice. No.
Yeah. And then, like, suddenly it really was.
It was like, oh, well, if you're not nice, like, you're dead, you know.

Speaker 1 But it actually just used to be like really cool to be like county and a bitch. And I feel like we're slowly edging back there, but I still think we're in our nice era.

Speaker 1 I still feel like we're in our like

Speaker 1 everybody has to be so nice all the time. And that's like cool if you're like really actually just like chill and nice.
Yeah. but sometimes i'm like i see you see through it and we all do

Speaker 1 i think everything is too sensitive now to actually hide who you are like you know what i mean like the media it's like if people are watching they're watching so closely so that you can't really get away with like putting on a persona anymore that's like really different from who you are because yeah we see so much of it and we're inundated in the discourse and et cetera that like

Speaker 1 We're ahead of the game that you're playing. Right.
Unless you play it like really well. Yeah, like some people do.
Really good team to cover shit up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I feel like, and I mean this on such a complimentary level, you, I feel like you've stuck to your cuntiness the whole, the whole way through. Thank you.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate that.
It's funny.

Speaker 1 It's like, I think I can

Speaker 1 be bitchy.

Speaker 1 I don't know that I'm a bitch. Right.

Speaker 1 That is a big distinction. You know, like, I'm never going to be horrible to someone

Speaker 1 for the sake of it because it's actually, I personally find it a lot harder to be like deliberately like emotionally aggressive or mean or whatever. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like, and don't get me wrong, I'm sure I have my bad days. Like, I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I'll also just like tell it how it is.
And I think that gets misconstrued as being mean.

Speaker 1 But it's actually just, I'm just being real because I don't think

Speaker 1 that it's that interesting to

Speaker 1 have this sort of like facade of like

Speaker 1 it takes a lot of energy you can twist yourself into a fucking knot and what would really we're all gonna die 100

Speaker 1 and I'm just like why don't we just like have fun I mean I think this album is kind of like on this front line where a lot of a lot of artists are doing this now where it is like transparency I'm bringing the fourth wall like you're singing about AG and Sophie and like Hud Merrill like for the first time probably right in a little way and like

Speaker 1 you're being very real about shit like you're singing I don't want to spoil the rest of the album but like you're singing about things that like are very surprising.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, oh, I didn't think she would be, she would have a song about like, I think, um, is that I think about it all the time. Yeah, yeah, the song about track 14, is that? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah, it is track 14. Yeah, I just remember because what track 14

Speaker 1 analog. Yes, I just remember it goes into the last track, and I love the two together because it's such a psych out.

Speaker 1 Like, it's like you're talking about, like, really weighing things in your, and in the way, where you are in life.

Speaker 1 Like, now is the time when I should maybe really really think about a family if that's what I want. Like, is it okay with you that I think about this? Like,

Speaker 1 this occupies a lot of space. And then the next song is Keys.
Yeah. It's like,

Speaker 1 and I was like, and I was like, is this her answering it or is this her having fun? Yeah. Or is it both? Like, it's, it's not the answer.
I, because I definitely, I don't think I have an answer. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Um, if you have baby fever, do cocaine is what you're saying. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. All brand deals gone.
Um,

Speaker 1 so that's cool. Um, but no, I don't have an answer, but I think it's an interesting question to muse over because, I mean, do you guys have many friends who have kids?

Speaker 1 Our female friends are really starting. I mean, like, even in the past six to eight months, like four or five of my friends have had their kids.
Yeah. Like one of my friends had her third kid.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Marriage.
So like Maria. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Is this your friend group? I don't have loads of friends who have kids yet, but I had kind of one like major friend in my life who's a songwriter who had a baby.

Speaker 1 And she was kind of the inspiration for this song because I went to her house to visit her in Stockholm with her partner.

Speaker 1 They've been together for like years, but they never really were like, we're having kids. It just kind of happened for them, you know?

Speaker 1 And then it was just so crazy going over to their apartment, writing songs with them. She's wearing the same clothes she always wore.
The apartment's the same. They're exactly the same.

Speaker 1 We're writing songs, but it's just like everything is different because she has the key to this door that like i'm not even in the same room as yet do you know what i mean talk about this like it's almost like they now know something you don't know and it's that wanting that like is driving the question in you exactly really interesting exactly and it's like you don't not to say that you can't you know get the same sort of level of intimacy person intimacy i'm not saying that but i just i think particularly like

Speaker 1 with her for me i was just like wow like we used to be so similar and your worldview, even though you're saying all the same things and you're the same person, you're also just like completely different because you have this new perspective that I can't even really begin to understand yet.

Speaker 1 You know, and it's just strange. But does it not give you some comfort that, like, she is wearing the same clothes, nothing about her? Absolutely.

Speaker 1 No, it's totally comforting. But then it's at the same time, it's just like, am I missing out? Like, and I think for me, it drives me to this place of like, do I want kids?

Speaker 1 Will I

Speaker 1 feel this new lease of life and this whole new world open up if I have kids? Will I feel resentment towards the kid? Will I seamlessly be able to do both things

Speaker 1 in exactly the way that I want? No, probably not. Unless I like kind of disregard the kid.
Like, I don't know. Imagine so many people.

Speaker 1 You want to do an amazing job at both. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so I would also, if I were in that position, I don't, I'll never have children, but if I were really, if it was something that was on my mind, I would worry that it would like harm my passion and like what I know I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like, is it going to change the way that I relate to myself

Speaker 1 as like this person who, like in your case, is out there creating and like being this like top idol. And then.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like it would, it would change a lot.
Like you don't know that you're going to be exactly like your friend wearing the same shit, talking about the same shit.

Speaker 1 Like, for some people, it really changes.

Speaker 1 But I feel like you have already been through a situation where everything was taken from you in some sense with lockdown. Like, your response to that was like, how I'm feeling now.

Speaker 1 So, I feel like if in a big life change situation like that, you already kind of, I'm not saying it would happen exactly that way, but you already know that, like, your response would be to like keep making true.

Speaker 1 That's, yeah, that's pretty interesting. I never thought of it like that.
No, yeah. Connecting Connecting dots.

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Speaker 1 Last time I saw you was at SNL and at the Good Nights. You were like, what's going on after? And I was like, there's a horse meat disco.
And then I almost

Speaker 1 did no. But I went after.

Speaker 1 You didn't miss much. That was that.
We love horse meat. You know, I mean, you know this because you do it.
Uh-huh. But it's.

Speaker 1 It's a lot of energy. It's a lot of energy.
It's late. It's late.
The signal is late. It's late.
But like, the boiler room set looks fucking.

Speaker 1 I know that's late, but it, but it's, I mean, this is like.

Speaker 1 Because when do you end? One. One.
And then. And when you go to the funny Mexican restaurant.

Speaker 1 Where was it? Rosa Mexicana. Rosa Mexicana.

Speaker 1 What is. Okay.
We rotate we rotate restaurants. Yeah, go go go Why isn't it okay the same place? No, why isn't it just a better place?

Speaker 1 You know what you really roll the dice and you roll the dice

Speaker 1 and he can't but like sometimes I'm like where are we going and it's either a fuck yes or a come on but has it it has been a fuck yes

Speaker 1 I've been to two yeah and they would I I went Rosa Mexicana Raza Mexicana was Oscar Isaac Yeah Oscar Isaac was and I mean I had fun I had fun you had a margarita but it was funny and you described it as a a funny restaurant.

Speaker 1 And it is a very funny restaurant. It's hilarious.
And we love Rosa Mexicana so much. We love them.
We love them. But we want a table tonight.
My brand is gone. My branded with Rosa Mexicana.

Speaker 1 It is gone. It's gone.

Speaker 1 But I like, so Charlie famously. But surely it's not a budget thing.
It kind of is.

Speaker 1 It's getting a little slash. I know.
It's a budgeted thing. No, Charlie, you need to come back when the party is at La Venue at Saks.
It's chic.

Speaker 1 There's room to walk around. But Charlie famously was the musical guest during the Omicron episode where it fucking.
Oh, everyone was gone, right? Well, can I say, can I reveal?

Speaker 1 Like on the monitors on Thursday, like all the writers were fucking screaming because it was like, oh my God, it's like Caroline Policek's here. Christine's here.
They're doing new shapes.

Speaker 1 And then the world missed out on like the three of you being on the same stage on TV doing new shapes. It was, that was crazy.
Tragedy. That was crazy.

Speaker 1 Also, because, yeah, I guess we never did that performance. Oh, there was, we had, we were on a, did you see a sound check? We were on a spinning platform.

Speaker 1 so cool and like I love Caroline and Christine, but my god that it was crazy like but you guys go crazy on that It was like Caroline wanted the platform to spin one way at one speed Christine wanted to spin the other way It was like I don't care which way the fucking platform spins I'm just gonna go

Speaker 1 everyone has like COVID It was just like so stressful

Speaker 1 It was just like a lot and then we finally figured out we were so feeling so good about it. We're like dancing on the platform.
We're not falling over.

Speaker 1 We like we fucking killed it And then we're literally, we were in, like, we were getting ready. Like, and then on Saturday? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We, I was in gum.

Speaker 1 And then Caroline was like, it's not happening. I was like, what do you mean? You're not coming.
And she was like, no, it's like, it's. They pulled the plug on it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Was that what happened?

Speaker 1 They pulled the plug on it entirely. Well, not my meatball sketch.
Thank God. Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 Charlie played a meatball. No, but that was, that was the Australian Isaac show.
Was it? That was, that was the second show. That was the time you came back.
Oh, I got a chicken. Chicken.

Speaker 1 I was, I, I did some pre-tape sketch. Oh,

Speaker 1 you were a chicken or a parrot? Some pretty chicken. You were a parrot.
You were a parrot. Yeah.
And I was kind of like, oh,

Speaker 1 well, at least I kept that a little bit. Oh, my God.
Yeah. It was like me and Paul.
Me and Paul. It was Paul Rudd, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Wow.
That's a good one, though, to play a chicken with Paul Rudd.

Speaker 1 That's so SNL coded. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 It's like I went on there and I did sketch comedy.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I was a chicken.

Speaker 1 I was a chicken and a meatball. But then you were, but then the second show, you did baby.
And then what did you do? I did beg for you. you.
Beg for you. Yeah.
Oh my god. Rina wasn't there for you.

Speaker 1 Brina was not there.

Speaker 1 Speaking of Sunset Tower, Sunset Tower is holds a very special place in my heart because that was where I was when Crash came out. The whole album.

Speaker 1 And I like, it was just me in a room listening to that whole album. Went to the tour.
You were fantastic. And I still say that that is the most well-behaved audience.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because it's these lovely e-boys and girls who just jump up and down vertical.

Speaker 1 No one's like throwing elbows in the pit. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Everyone like watches their space and

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 well-behaved.

Speaker 1 They're polite.

Speaker 1 The angels are polite.

Speaker 1 But with this, do you want them to get a little bit more chaotic? I always want them to get chaotic. Like, whenever they, you know, I'm lucky because whenever I bump into like a mass group of angels,

Speaker 1 they're very like sweet.

Speaker 1 You know, they like wait in line. They like have the lids off their Sharpie.
Like, they're organized. Oh my God, I love it.
Yeah. It's never like a shit show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, I saw this TikTok of Paris Hilton had done like a signing

Speaker 1 and it had got a little hectic and someone had like drawn on her like Chanel bag with a sharpie.

Speaker 1 And I was just like, that, I mean, I'm sure there's like

Speaker 1 there's lots more where it came from, but that is really like, that's such a bummer.

Speaker 1 That would never happen with the angel. No, no.
Not on your Blue Glenciaga.

Speaker 1 No, no.

Speaker 1 Do you still put a banana in it? Always. I always travel.
I brought a banana here, left it on the plane. You You did? You have my favorite what's in my bag?

Speaker 1 Because you have the banana, you have the lane.

Speaker 1 Yes. And you have the Bareto.
Is it the true emotion? No, no, no, no. That's no.
What is it?

Speaker 1 I just. Mixed emotions.
Mixed. You and I have the same fragrance.
Yeah. I'm wearing La Tulipe today.
Latuli. La Tulip.
It's a new fragrance. I haven't done it before.

Speaker 1 It's a Baredo. A new fragrance is a thing.
Yeah. Like, I've switched, and it's just like.
What are you on? I am on De Los Santos from Baredo. Yeah, okay.
I have that.

Speaker 1 I i will say bow and yang really tried to get me into sunday cologne and that was not for me

Speaker 1 it's called no no it's by

Speaker 1 sunday yeah sunday something rainy sunday no that's much i think i'm out sunday cologne it's just called sunday cologne

Speaker 1 cologne yeah

Speaker 1 and i just sunday cologne now i found de los santos and i actually was wearing it had its debut at coachella on me and i felt very good by the way you did you didn't you didn't say me but i saw you last year oh you did that went off people were getting people were getting fun rowdy at that point.

Speaker 1 That was fun. How was Coachella this year? I feel like I was doing it.
Coachella this year was fucking great. But Lana Del Rey makes an appearance in the Mean Girls song.
Yes, she does. She does.

Speaker 1 Because hot girls listen to Lana Del Rey. Hot Mean Girls listen to Lana Del Rey.
It's true. It's true.
I feel like any cool, like genuinely cool girl. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Not only like likes Lana Del Rey, but like understands like the lore of like

Speaker 1 Lana

Speaker 1 in a really deep way yeah she's you know what i'm saying so

Speaker 1 real she's an art figure she really is something symbolic she's symbolic for something yeah right yes when i was hearing that song i was like i see this girl yeah yeah yeah you see her yeah she like smokes skinny cigarette and being being and she's a little like

Speaker 1 yes she's a little bit like she's got a vocal fry vocal fry

Speaker 1 but it doesn't feel dated it feels very good on her yeah absolutely yeah and i will say being at coachella around 75 000 of those girls was a good vibe. Cool.

Speaker 1 And I wasn't sure about her doing the Friday night because I felt like that should be a party. Like in my head, I was like, switch Doja and Lana, put Lana on Sunday night.

Speaker 1 Doja will get everything started. And then now having seen it, I'm like.

Speaker 1 everything was exactly everything was perfect yes yeah did you go i didn't go no i've never been never been oh what people do with your music though i think like if we're gonna compare lana heads to like angels and people who like really like love you i feel like you

Speaker 1 get people to like do the digging of like, oh my God, like it's this, there's this whole album that has, you know, like they, they really start to like dig through the crate.

Speaker 1 And I think people love to like take your stuff, all the stems, whatever, and then just like rearrange it. And like they, they have fun with the building blocks that you're giving.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And I think my music is like intrinsically like for

Speaker 1 the night. Yes.
You know, I mean, you can listen to it in the day, you can listen to it in the car, like whatever.

Speaker 1 But generally, it's like

Speaker 1 the best night time.

Speaker 1 i remember like i saw you at the will turn a few years ago and just like what was happening on stage was so great one of my favorite songs of yours is i don't want to know and like i just like you had this like really cool purple light just like i don't know just like you're not like synesthetic are you i am

Speaker 1 i can tell i've yeah i can tell what do you mean like someone like got into your face was like you're not actually no no i just it's like one of those things where you know like when you do your first interviews and it's like one of the first things you've ever said and then like

Speaker 1 it's because because people are like she's synesthetic test her yeah but like you actually do experience that yeah and for me it's like really helpful with writing yeah when i'm writing i'm like this song is purple like and then i'll be like a g make the the purple stuff yes i wanted to ask you this question about like when you sit down to write a song is it like because it feels like equal parts important and obviously it is but i guess my question is is it the sound and like where you're going sonically that dictates what something is going to be about or do you come in with an emotion that you need to get out with this record it's been very much that i came in with what i wanted to say

Speaker 1 whereas on previous records it's not actually really been like this with this record it's been so lyrically led yeah like i've been like i want to write a song about my

Speaker 1 kind of sticky relationship with my mom and dad right which was apple or like I want to write the song about not being sure if I want to have kids or, you know, like it's been very like,

Speaker 1 it's there. it's in my head.
Like, mean girls kind of like piecing that around like a few different girls I know and thinking about like qualities that they have and putting that in a song.

Speaker 1 360

Speaker 1 and your bookends are there, it's

Speaker 1 thanks. Yeah, and with that, it was very like, okay, I want to talk about me like being the like a sonic reference for people, but through the like lens of Julia kind of being the like

Speaker 1 New York, like it girl, street fashion girl that everybody's referencing, you know? Julia Fox meanings. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like very specific.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then kind of fun to build out these like pop songs that hopefully like a lot of people can relate to, but they're coming from like quite a specific idea. Yeah.
Right. And place.

Speaker 1 And why do you think it didn't happen with the other albums? It just like wasn't the way it was. I think I was writing very much like the way I would write on previous records.

Speaker 1 We would build a track and then I would get on the microphone and literally be like,

Speaker 1 and then figure out the lyrics. And then I would figure out the lyrics that fit the vowel sounds I was kind of making.

Speaker 1 So there was already this sort of like map of sound that, you know, I was trying to fit words to.

Speaker 1 You're saying this is lyrically led? Lyrically led. And not really focusing too much on rhyme or worrying about like what fits within a stanza or anything like that, you know?

Speaker 1 So actually just, I was really able to kind of just write lyrics that I would actually say in a conversation rather than crafting them into this sort of like song version of what I would say.

Speaker 1 And even like melodically in the way that like the song forms around us, like even with girls so confusing, it's girl. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like there's something there that's the melody, like the way you really say it. I'm like, I want to do this.
You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's just totally.

Speaker 1 It feels like it's born out of something you want to say. Yes.
This time. And to hear that you say that is

Speaker 1 works.

Speaker 1 But back on this thing of like, I think this is like extremely transparent in the way and it is like holding up this mirror because like the rorschak test of this album is the cover and everyone having all these opinions about like the cover right and it's in your and i think you kind of threw it back at people in a nice way where you're like no this is actually like this completely reveals what you think like a pop girly should appear and how they should put out their work and stuff like that, which I think is great.

Speaker 1 But I think with the content of the album, it's more about like, guys, like, I think about like crazy dark shit about my career.

Speaker 1 I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it's like, I think it is your most vulnerable album because you are being very honest about like how you regard yourself in a way that would have never occurred to me.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Right, right.

Speaker 1 Like, there are allusions to like your career being in this in-between. And I'm like, oh, like six albums in, like, you, you feel that way.
Yeah, totally. Well, I just, it's, I think there aren't many

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 1 have a path that I have. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There are some, Robin being one, and I think that's why there's a lot of like synergy between the two of us.

Speaker 1 But, you know, somebody who had, speaking about Robin now, huge commercial success

Speaker 1 right at the beginning of her career. Yes.

Speaker 1 And then kind of had to like

Speaker 1 rebrand

Speaker 1 and then became this kind of gay icon, kind of like girl of the night. No, that sounds wrong.

Speaker 1 You know, like nighttime music, like club, like

Speaker 1 always, no matter what she does, is always going to be kind of like looked upon as like a really important artist who's kind of like treading new ground and, you know,

Speaker 1 kind of like timeless. Yes.
And I think, you know, we share similarities in that, you know,

Speaker 1 not my first music, but music for my second record was globally like commercially successful. But at that point of time for me, I didn't really have

Speaker 1 my artistry kind of totally figured out in the way that i feel that i do have now i mean there were definitely like good through threads but when i look at for example like

Speaker 1 sour olivia rodrigo i'm like oh i wish i'd done sucker kind of like that like because i think there are parallels within those universes but i think she just did it better

Speaker 1 because I think she

Speaker 1 I don't know I don't think I knew myself that well at that point in time when I was doing that record. And I look at some of the decisions she made and I'm like, oh, wow, it's like still very like

Speaker 1 pop and kind of like touching on this like live, like punkish stuff. Yeah.
But it's done in a way that to me is still very cool.

Speaker 1 Whereas I feel like when I look back on sucker, there are elements of it that I'm like, oh, that was just a bit annoying.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? I've told you, though, that like true romance is still the perfect. I don't know how you feel about that album, but it's like, I feel like that is still

Speaker 1 for Charlie. That is still like, that's the through thread.
That's the through line. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like, I still listen to So Far Away, and I'm like, this is fundamentally the same stuff she's putting it. She's put out through her whole career.
And like, that is like music of the night. Whereas

Speaker 1 it's like the beginnings of like bedroom pop, this whole thing now that has this whole, you know, life and culture around it. Like, I think you really broke ground in that way with it.
Like,

Speaker 1 sucker is its own thing. And that must have been so strange and so complicated, but it's still a great record.

Speaker 1 But True Romance, I think, is still like you, you can always, always fall back on that first record.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love that record. I love that record.
But yeah, anyways, I think it's like

Speaker 1 it's just interesting. My career hasn't been like A

Speaker 1 to B. It's been like kind of it's like a weird, like A J P Q art, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. And it's like straddling this like commercial thing.
Also, being a songwriter, also being linked to the underground, and disregarding that, and

Speaker 1 coming back, and you know, no, it's a mess.

Speaker 1 It's not a mess. It's that I think I'm sure you're

Speaker 1 in a nice way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 People don't have that trajectory anymore because people are so afraid to take the risk, whether from the label or from the artists themselves.

Speaker 1 Like, I think you have been so good about using whatever the apparatus is, whatever you have within you to just like make it. Like, that's like, like, that's what how I'm feeling now is to me.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah, you just fucking made it. Thank you.
You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1 Sky Miles is the membership that will be here for all your big and small moments. The membership that's there for every solo adventure or family trip.

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Ah.

Speaker 1 You have had these like, when you describe it as a mess, it is interesting because it's like, there's these spikes of like these mainstream moments.

Speaker 1 Like going back to like boom clap, like that being in like Love Simon. Yeah.
Like that was like Fault and All Stars. Oh, Fault in All Stars.

Speaker 1 I guess that's what actually the thing is. It's like that kind of was our fault in our stars, although they both lived, I guess.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 They were still gay, though.

Speaker 1 But like that. And then I remember it was a few years ago now, but we were in the Fire Island movie.
And when we found out that the boys remix was going to be in our trailer. Yeah, so cool.

Speaker 1 I was like,

Speaker 1 thank God, because this is going to get across like the fun of this. It's going to make it seem even more fun than it is.

Speaker 1 Like, and also just like, there was something about, doesn't that song also start Promising Young Woman? Yes.

Speaker 1 Like, so it's just like, there are these like moments in like big mainstream culture that like you're right there. And so I wonder how, how do you feel when something is perceived on that level?

Speaker 1 Is that like an exciting thing or is it a little bit like, hmm. No, no, I feel good about it.

Speaker 1 It's like, okay, I think because there are some things you mentioned that, so like Fire Island, Promising Young Woman, those things feel really exciting to me and inspiring and happy to be involved in them.

Speaker 1 But I think it's like what I've learned, like going back and forth between this kind of like more commercial version of myself to this kind of more, I'm really just leading with like what's in my brain and my, you know, instinct.

Speaker 1 I've just learned now from doing it so long, I can't like fake,

Speaker 1 I just can't like fake pushing the commercial button. Like, hi, I'm Top Girlie, I'm smiling, and we're dinner with Coca-Cola.
I can't do it. I can't like,

Speaker 1 and that's no disrespect to the people who do. Some people are just like made to like live in that world and like they want to make the music that is going to like really succeed in that world.

Speaker 1 And it's really hard to succeed in that world.

Speaker 1 Like I'm not taking that away from anyone, but like, I just can't do because when I've written those songs and I put them out, it's like they only go so far because

Speaker 1 I think there's a block that the fans see as well. They're just like, she's not that girl.
Like, that's not who she really is. She's not that girl.

Speaker 1 Like, some of them can, like, maybe a less hardcore fan can

Speaker 1 get down with it. But it's like, you know, it's just like when you smell a rat.
Yeah. Or whatever.
It's like, I have to just be yourself. Myself.
Something in the milk ain't clean

Speaker 1 when you're not being yourself and I can't fucking

Speaker 1 nor should you have to

Speaker 1 because it makes me miserable

Speaker 1 You have to sing that music every night I think it was Dua who said we were just talking to her about her album and she we were talking about this like theme that she has of like positivity and the messages that she has are usually like up and she's like well i have to sing it every fucking night so if if it's gonna be something that's in my mouth every single night it better taste good like you know what what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like, it's so funny because I'm the opposite of

Speaker 1 it. Like, if I had to sing really overly positive, like, Boom Clap is a good example, which obviously is so different from like radical optimism, like completely different sounding records, etc.

Speaker 1 But, like, that's funny that she says that. And that makes sense for her because she is, I think she is always really kind of like seizing like the positivity in life.
I kind of like to dwell in the

Speaker 1 kind of like sit in the shit a little bit.

Speaker 1 and externalize that because that is also a valid emotion that people out there are feeling to do it i could yeah that's so that's really interesting yeah yeah but like i feel that this is like to fit like like the pendulum the pendulum that stops like a vision of like me

Speaker 1 performing radical optimism and do up doing brat doing brat being like three six five putty girl bumping that and then me doing

Speaker 1 and like both of us like being on our like the versions of the what those tours are. And I want to see that.
How is that?

Speaker 1 How's it going down? But this is how you know that like you're doing the right thing is that like you

Speaker 1 like, we love Dua. It would be crazy if she did 360.
And it would be kind of crazy if you did radical optimism. It's like you are doing the thing you were meant to do.

Speaker 1 It is purely externalized from whatever your inner life is. And I feel like you're, what you're saying is maybe the pendulum has stopped swinging.

Speaker 1 Like you've landed in this nice space of like, I'm in between,

Speaker 1 or I'm more of this one thing than I am, this thing. And, like, I feel like reflective surfaces are a big part of this album.

Speaker 1 It's like, you look in the mirror, you see, you see me, like, and you're holding up a mirror to society. Am I being stupid?

Speaker 1 No, she saw you illuminate me. I went, hmm.

Speaker 1 The reflective surface.

Speaker 1 But, like, use it. Yes, I'm using it.
Come on.

Speaker 1 Use it like a mirror. Like a mirror.

Speaker 1 We gotta ask Charlie the question. Yes, we do.
So, this is the central question of Lost Cult. It's what was the culture that made you say culture is for you? You can look back and be like, I am

Speaker 1 largely me because of this thing I experienced. I think it was, and maybe this is not

Speaker 1 very surprising, but I think it was like the London rave

Speaker 1 scene and that like culture of like London warehouse parties that I kind of came up through. Yep.

Speaker 1 Because that sort of in turn put me very on to kind of like club kid stuff when i was younger and when i was in art school i was always kind of like in this sort of like lee bowery like inspired like michael alleg kind of yeah yeah but still like yeah there's a cool scene yeah

Speaker 1 like those parties like that level of

Speaker 1 yes totally and that level of kind of like diy

Speaker 1 aesthetic with clothes and music and yeah i think that really formed who I am. So she how did you find it? I think it was from starting going to these parties because

Speaker 1 when that must have been like 2007, eight when I was going in London, I was young. I would go with my parents,

Speaker 1 which was not cool. Were you guys like in Essex going to? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They would drive me. I would get asked ahead of MySpace and I knew this like promoter who was like, come and play.

Speaker 1 And we would like drive into London and I would play at like 3 a.m. So you were being booked for these.
Yeah, I was being booked. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that was kind of my first like

Speaker 1 look into kind of night life and like party culture. And at that point in time, I guess it was like our version of indie sleaze was going on.
It was New Rave, which was like, you know, sure, sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so that was sort of like a kind of regurgitation of, you know, all the prior like first, second wave of club kids that were coming before.

Speaker 1 So I kind of just got sort of like sucked in through that way.

Speaker 1 And then you learned about the prior waves. It felt like education.
There was some like rooting for this. It wasn't like it just kind of came up out of nowhere.
Like you had history to like. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I had to soak in the history because I wanted to understand like what Michael Atleck was doing and what like that original like club scene and like those club kids were doing back here in New York and those levels of like crazy parties they would throw like they threw one on a bridge where all they like shut both ends of the bridge and like you know just this like the lore of like

Speaker 1 partying and

Speaker 1 how

Speaker 1 that kind of like spawned into music and then began to kind of create like new sounds of music i think that

Speaker 1 it's like such a rich thing for me yeah yeah like oh like you like at the limelight would have been so

Speaker 1 imagine yeah wild imagine

Speaker 1 where do you live now do you do you still like i'm half in la and half in london yeah back and forth. Back and forth.
Yeah. LA out of necessity or do you like it? I'm beginning to maybe be over it.

Speaker 1 I've been there for 10 years. Oh,

Speaker 1 that feels like double the amount of time it would take to be over it. Yeah.
I'm thinking about New York, actually. I think New York is...
I've never lived here. I think you should do.
I think

Speaker 1 New York and London, like...

Speaker 1 I guess like if you were someone who wanted two different experiences in the two places you live, like I'm here because I want to rest, meaning LA, and I'm here because I want to be included in what's going on and like the culture that's London but like

Speaker 1 New York is New York yeah I do love London you can rest in New York I do love London too

Speaker 1 did you love performing at Coachella I was honestly so scared was it scary yeah because you know with Coachella

Speaker 1 stage yeah and everyone was like it's all about the live stream everyone's like stressing about the live stream so that made me kind of treat it more like TV oh

Speaker 1 you know was that helpful or no well I was happy with how

Speaker 1 it looked and how I sounded because I was thinking so much about the broadcast, but it definitely was just stressful. That wasn't a major,

Speaker 1 you know? It was a major change. So I remember we saw Chapel in the Gobi tent.

Speaker 1 And then right after that, we walked over to Sabrina Carpenter on the Coachella stage. And I remember it felt like the energy was lower.

Speaker 1 But then I was like, oh, but on this stage, they're thinking about the live stream.

Speaker 1 Whereas in like the Gobi and Sahara tents, they're just giving a live show. Right.
And it feels like that. Like, so the live experience does feel, I would imagine, like more alive there.

Speaker 1 And maybe as the performer, it feels more connected. Whereas like on the Coachella stage where you were, it is a lot about like, they're watching at home.
Yeah, it was scary.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's okay. Yeah.
I mean, whatever. Would Lee Barry care?

Speaker 1 I was there having the best time. You want to be there.

Speaker 1 Lee Barry tells me. Lee Barry, you used to do these like videos, these little short films of him like teaching you how to like have tea.
Like he was just so adorable.

Speaker 1 That's what people don't talk about with Lee Bowery is that like, yeah, it's like the looks and all these things, but it's like at his heart, he was just this like sensitive. He was Australian, right?

Speaker 1 Australian? Yeah. Australian.
I kind of confused it as a Brit, but you know, maybe, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right.
No, we can't look it up. I hope you're both wrong now.

Speaker 1 I hope you're both wrong. But like,

Speaker 1 did it take you, like, was there a developmental thing for you to like grow up in that and then be like, I'm going to like, do you like, I'm going to make this like part of me?

Speaker 1 I, I don't think it was a choice, you know? I think it's like it just, I gravitated so

Speaker 1 hard towards it. I think it was like I saw elements of myself

Speaker 1 in what was being created in the worlds that I was looking into.

Speaker 1 There was, there was like a punkness and like a kind of freeness and it felt that there was like a possibility to be a little messy and not perfect, and not look a certain type of a way to still be able to express yourself and feel really like validated or something.

Speaker 1 And I think I was searching for that a lot when I was growing up.

Speaker 1 And that that could be a version of success is just going there and participating and being in the culture and being around people that make you feel good and not this like more calculated metric of like, well, did this happen?

Speaker 1 Right. Did you look like this? Right.
And being rewarded for being a freak.

Speaker 1 I think that was something that really like made me like gravitate towards that world because that was what was like celebrated. Like

Speaker 1 if you were like really like wearing something like weird or like, you know what I mean? Or like, you got attention. You got like something.

Speaker 1 Right. I was like, oh, that's cool.
Like, you don't have to be this kind of traditional version of beauty or talent or like whatever it is. It's like you can kind of

Speaker 1 make

Speaker 1 a fantasy and it be valid, even if it's like a little fucked and ugly, you know, or whatever. That's your root though.

Speaker 1 Like, that's why it's like you don't have to worry about being like the moral model for anything.

Speaker 1 It's like, just like let that shit go because you started out in this like environment where like it didn't really matter.

Speaker 1 Like nightlife culture is about like unrepressed everything.

Speaker 1 It's

Speaker 1 just like humanity revealing itself. I'm being so like, no, I love it.
You know what I mean? No, I love it. It's so interesting.
Have you done Mighty Hoopla or been to Mighty Hoopla?

Speaker 1 I don't know what that is. Oh, okay, okay, no problem.
It's like big queer, like, music. It's like a queer

Speaker 1 thing. I was like, she told me a headline four times.

Speaker 1 There's that park that's like South London.

Speaker 1 Not Victoria.

Speaker 1 I haven't done it. I haven't done it.
No problem. Sorry.
We're still like, no, but it's like a teeny, tiny Coachella, but in London with all queer, like queer adjacent artists.

Speaker 1 They've never asked me. That's so fucked up.
Yeah, it's fucked.

Speaker 1 It's fucked in a crazy way. Are you excited for tour? I am.

Speaker 1 Have you guys been wanting to tour together? It feels like such a natural thing. Yeah, you know, we have the same manager.
Oh, yeah. Our manager has been trying to get us to tour together for years.

Speaker 1 And every time we're like,

Speaker 1 yeah, like, obviously we love each other, but I think the music has never quite

Speaker 1 been lined up. And now it's like so lining up.
Yeah. You know, so this time when our manager, like for like literally the fifth time, was like, do you guys want to talk together?

Speaker 1 We were like, yeah, we do. Yeah.
Because it really made sense and we could see how it would really like flow and work together. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sung together. I think so.
To be honest, we're still putting it together. But I think that, yes.
Yes. It's what people would.
Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's going to be like.

Speaker 1 a full medley situation, but there's definitely going to be a few moments. You guys should be the beast.
You guys should use it. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 i did see you guys

Speaker 1 i think it was also at the wheel turn like it was years ago you guys were on the same show was like we did a bunch of artists yeah it was a festival that i think we both did together yeah because i remember just thinking seeing you both and i forget

Speaker 1 festival that maybe was troy's invention but maybe it was also mine but i don't remember troy invented pride he totally did yeah he pioneers it every year he did yeah yeah well that's gonna be It's going to be fun.

Speaker 1 I cannot wait. People were freaking out over the ticket

Speaker 1 situation, which is always a good feeling when it's like, did people get tickets? I know. So, yeah, we're so happy.
We're really happy. It's going to be fun.
It's like pretty quick. Uh-huh.
I know.

Speaker 1 It's like a couple months, right? It's like, not even.

Speaker 1 Is it like five weeks? Okay.

Speaker 1 Where is it in New York? Is it MSG? Yes, it's MSG.

Speaker 1 Obviously, we'd love to go to town.

Speaker 1 It's going to be really fun. And you know, know, I've paid top dollar for you.
Like, I've been doing it. You don't have to anymore.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, fine. I'll take it if I have to.

Speaker 1 I'll take it if I have to twist my own.

Speaker 1 I did hear a story one time of, I won't say any details until after, but there was an artist who was in a big feud with this other famous person.

Speaker 1 And the famous person reached out like years after to like get tickets to a show. And the person just sent back a ticket link and said, buy one.
Iconic. Iconic.
Love.

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Okay, that's adding like seven words because you've added so much drama. Thank you.
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Speaker 1 All right, so it's time for I don't think so.

Speaker 1 Okay, you got your day more than that.

Speaker 1 You're gonna pop the fuck off. So this is this is our 60-second segment where we drag name cultural item here.

Speaker 1 I uh walked into this myself today. Uh, it's my own fault, but I am in a

Speaker 1 self-accountability. Yeah.
Because Matt Rogers, I don't think Sahani's time starts now. I don't think Sahani wearing a graphic tee on the subway in New York.

Speaker 1 Because here's the thing: people are going to read it and then they are going to engage with it and then you're trapped with them for what could be as much as a half hour.

Speaker 1 So today I have a shirt on that says, is it going to be a threesome? I'm challengers coded my whole life right now. This is merch from focus features.
Thank you again. For driveaway dolls.

Speaker 1 And for driveaway dolls. Haven't seen it yet, but can't wait, sister.
I just know that I was on the subway today with a gentleman who could read the shirt and did out loud.

Speaker 1 And so then he was engaging with her. It caused everyone to turn.
And I said, you know what?

Speaker 1 Maybe if I hadn't worn a shirt with words on it that could be read, I wouldn't be having a conversation at all, least of all about threesomes.

Speaker 1 And this person was not necessarily someone I wanted to engage with about threesomes.

Speaker 1 You know, if you see me wearing this and you think we would vibe, I don't know, maybe it's not, I will be wearing it the whole rest of today.

Speaker 1 This episode comes out in like three weeks, but I'll wear it again.

Speaker 1 Actually, yes, the day this episode is released, I'm going to be walking the streets of New York wearing it. Say hi, but not if you're like a crazy person on on the subway.
And that's one minute.

Speaker 1 So that's my auto thing for me on today. That is so good.
Okay, I'm gonna suck at this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, my best.
You're gonna be so good. You're gonna be so good.

Speaker 1 We all know you talk super fast.

Speaker 1 Do I? On recorded media, you go selfish. Let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 Like, in a way,

Speaker 1 now I'm like, do I? No.

Speaker 1 In a way that it's like a, oh, you mean in song? I'm just saying, you're, we know you can get on the mic and rip. You can hit, you can rip.
You know what I mean? In a way, is it like a problem? No.

Speaker 1 Okay. It means that you're like, Bill Francis,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 Everyone's thing about Charlie's they're like, yeah, she just talks too fast. I mean, I just wish it wasn't so fast.
I'm just kidding. No, I'm just saying, like, I've heard the album.
I know that.

Speaker 1 I know that you can keep up the tempo. I understand.
And Von Yang, speaking of tempo, you ready to fucking do this? Yeah. Okay.
So this is Volon Yang's. I don't think so honey is time starts now.

Speaker 1 I don't think so honey, pubic hair. Why is it looking different down there than up here? I look like Miss Frizzle got a dye job.
I'm curly, curly, curly.

Speaker 1 And I wish I could get a perm up here and make my, give myself a little swoop. My pubic hair is so tightly coiled down there.
And when you see it on the bathroom floor, you go, oh, no. I'm so shocked.

Speaker 1 That is not something I want to see. And it's, if you're living alone like me, it's just you.

Speaker 1 I don't like how, I don't like it.

Speaker 1 I don't like what it says about me. I think pubic hair, like either when you have it, it's like, oh, let's, let's shear it.
And then when you don't have it, it's like, sheer.

Speaker 1 Well, now you look like a fucking mole rat. Yeah, 100%.
There's no in between. 15 seconds.
Why can't we just stay there?

Speaker 1 And I sure as hell ain't laser removing it because it's like, because like I said, if it's gone, it looks even crazier than if it is a fire. 15 seconds.
If it is a jungle.

Speaker 1 And I have a really crazy situation. I don't know why it's different down there.
Isn't body hair all supposed to be the same? And that's one minute.

Speaker 1 You are the only person, I believe, in history to say, you wish what was down there.

Speaker 1 You wish your pubic hair was on your head I just wanted to go both ways if my hair on my head looked pubic I'd be like well at least it's consistent right this is so shocking first of all laser hair removal on your pubic area some people do an asshole maybe some people do it the guys I've been hooking up with lately don't seem to care at all about maintaining it down there right or maybe they just think they don't care what i think yeah

Speaker 1 i think it has been so wild and free as a flat i think no matter your gender it's like there is not a great way to manage it like period Well, maybe it's also because I'm hooking up with like men that are my age in their 30s and not like just given up.

Speaker 1 This isn't like when you're in your fresh in your 20s and everyone thinks like, oh, I should like manscape or whatever, or like really keep it clean down there. It's like, give it a rest, girl.

Speaker 1 Like, we're all just trying to live life. No one cares that you're a hairy one.
No one cares. But I bet your pubic hair is thrilling.
It's freshly shorn. Oh.
Why? You have plans later?

Speaker 1 No, I just, it was getting out of hand and I am in that liminal space now where I'm like, this sucks. like I just wish it were going to be

Speaker 1 no I'm actually okay I'm moisturizing cool yeah down there you just conditioning conditioning

Speaker 1 I should use I should try my purple shampoo for my blonde yeah get blonde pubes blonde pubes I don't want to know

Speaker 1 okay anyway

Speaker 1 I am not nervous don't be

Speaker 1 nervous I'm nervous okay don't be nervous my heart just skipped a beat no just

Speaker 1 think of something you're like I got it just speak the truth this is Charlie X the X's I don't think so your time starts now Okay, I don't think so, honey. I'm actually coming for a group of people.

Speaker 1 These people who have this stuck-up, eye roll-y attitude towards reality TV.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Taking it back to the beginning of our conversation. What is not to love?

Speaker 1 I feel like there is such a high, low conundrum to reality TV that just makes me want to sink my teeth in, whether it be our favorite housewives for Salt Lake City,

Speaker 1 Potomac also heard it's pretty good. Miami also heard it's pretty good, excellent.
But also, what about some other amazing shows?

Speaker 1 Below deck, below deck down under, below deck sailing yacht, below deck Mediterranean, Love Island, Australia, British, heard the US wasn't that good.

Speaker 1 But anyway, I just think that there is such a psychology, such a wonderful, amazing world to delve into on reality TV. It's like the factory, it's absolutely fabulous.

Speaker 1 Just keep it coming and don't judge it. And that's it now.

Speaker 1 I don't think so honey, the world there. Oh, reality TV is not trash.
It's not trash. It's not trash.
It's art. It's all.
It's art. You should

Speaker 1 sweat during that. Oh, my God.
I was like sweating. And look, but that's like a good sign.
Like, we have

Speaker 1 the tour.

Speaker 1 I'm just like, oh, my God. Oh.
We had a Claire Voyager come in recently. And when he sweats, he means it's the spirit move.
It's like energy is moving through her. That's what's happened.
Amazing.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You should watch couples therapy. Oh,

Speaker 1 so good. With that.
Orniguralic. Orniguraldic.
Have you had her on? You have her on her.

Speaker 1 She is the sexiest woman. She's so sexy.

Speaker 1 Don't you just want to be here? I love her. And what just happened here? I love her.
Just the tiny little.

Speaker 1 What? And what's, and what was the

Speaker 1 talk about this?

Speaker 1 She's amazing. I'm so glad you watched her.
I love her. I think her fashion.
is incredible. It just seems so chic.
She is. I bet her apartment's really cool.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, well, have you gotten to the lockdown stuff yet? Where they bring the cameras into her apartment because she's doing all of it through like telehealth.

Speaker 1 And so like you see her apartment and it's like kind of messy in a very charming way.

Speaker 1 She's got all her kids running around.

Speaker 1 How many kids does she have? Two. I think she's so fast.

Speaker 1 What I love is when she speaks to her therapist. Yeah.
She's a real icon.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Virginia. Virginia.
She's like Bran Code.

Speaker 1 She's a real superstar. But you finished it all the way through.
There's like, I mean, whatever. We don't want to talk about it.
There's an Israeli Palestinian queer couple that's amazing.

Speaker 1 And then, like, and then Orna's like, when she finds out that one of them is Palestinian, she goes, You know, I'm from Israel, right? And then, like, Orna,

Speaker 1 like, blessed, like, is like on socials being like, this is crazy. Anyway, but you should watch it all the way through.
You would fucking love it. I can't wait.
Yeah. I can't wait.
That was a star.

Speaker 1 She's a star, but that's between like, that's not quite reality. It's not quite documentary, right? It's like they, they know they're being filmed, but they can't see the cameras.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you think they've done that show? By the way, I have no idea how long we have left, but I'm like, no, please go, go, go. We could do a whole episode on this.

Speaker 1 I feel like they've shot that show in a really tasteful way. Yes.
And I hope it never changes. You know what? You want to know what it is?

Speaker 1 It's like you can tell that, well, obviously it's all hit and that's like part of it, but it's still really elevated the way they shoot it.

Speaker 1 And I just, what I love is that they seem to catch micro emotions. Like it's really like intentionally edited.
Yeah. And I believe it's like really smartly done through her lens.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because we're making a joke about like, what was that? Yeah. But we saw it too.
Yeah. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 And also, it has to be so crazy like to be in those sessions and then watch it after because it's also an edited version of that session.

Speaker 1 You go down for hours. That would also maybe give you a little bit of a complex.
Like, why am I being edited this way and not that way?

Speaker 1 Like, I can't understand saying yes to that, but I'm so thrilled that people do. Me too.
Do you have a favorite couple? Or a most fascinating person? I really liked the young, queer couple.

Speaker 1 Like, they were really young and they had been in a relationship for like three years, sort of formatively.

Speaker 1 And one of them wanted to be in an open relationship and the other did not or was adjusting to that.

Speaker 1 And I think ultimately what they had to really figure out and admit to each other was that they were not right for each other.

Speaker 1 And watching that. play out was heartbreaking.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I just hoped that they could still figure it out to be in each other's lives because that's, I think, the hardest thing about when a relationship ends is it's like, I don't want to lose you as the person, you know, like that.

Speaker 1 And I thought that was just like a beautiful illustration and like yeah you know examination of that kind of thing like i love you more than anything this is not right yeah do you have a favorite yeah mine is uh also season one it was the kind of like very

Speaker 1 sort of

Speaker 1 set in his ways quite sexy oh i know who you're talking about man yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and the woman who was sort of willing to try anything for him

Speaker 1 and he was just he would like get up during the session and walk around. Can't stand it.
And he was just like being like very controlling. But his story is interesting.
His story was wild. So wild.

Speaker 1 Like, like, like that woman fucked him when he was like 14.

Speaker 1 Tied him to a bed. And also, the way it came out, again, could be the edit.
We don't know. It was just sort of like they'd done like four or five sessions.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Nothing was really like going anywhere. And then one day he's just like, well, you know, there was that time where I got tied to a bed when I was 14.
And like, Orna's like, what? What?

Speaker 1 You know, let's like really examine this person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just like, he just like throws it in out of nowhere. Yeah.
But that's real, though. That's real therapy shit.
Like, there's no like easing into it.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it just kind of you drop a bomb.

Speaker 1 Well, you get the sense that he either was just as stubborn and controlling with like releasing that information as he is in the immediate thing, or I think some guys that are like that just don't understand

Speaker 1 that it has affected them in that way. I mean, who knows? But I was under the impression that maybe he just like wasn't there yet.
Yeah. But then the thing that was really interesting about them was

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 1 Orna would go and speak to her therapist about how she was getting very triggered specifically by him.

Speaker 1 And that was like this

Speaker 1 extra dynamic that was really interesting. And she was kind of talking about how she needed to make sure she was providing like fair and equal counsel, but she was like so annoyed by him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that is interesting.

Speaker 1 he's one of i think there's multiple like people like this like he's one of the people who says to her i could do your job yeah

Speaker 1 yeah really i couldn't believe that that was crazy you mentioned the gall do you have a favorite couple i i like there's a couple in season two that's really great it's two men one of them is a ballet dancer one of them oh they were great they were great and then one of them like had a really harrowing journey with like sobriety um and then then the pandemic happened then the pandemic happened and then there's this one couple there's a problem couple in season three and she or talks to virginia and she talks to a peer group of of other therapists.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And all of them like help her crack this one couple because it's, she hits a wall.
She's like, I don't know what to feel. Because the guy was stonewalling everything.
The guy was stonewalling.

Speaker 1 And there's such a sensational clip of her. Like, they play at the beginning of the season where she just like, they're screaming and she goes, I'm gonna stop you guys right now.

Speaker 1 I'm not the right therapist for you. And then you're like, oh! You're like, how does it get there? How does it get there? And you watch it.
You watch it. And this is the whole season.

Speaker 1 There was also that great, there was a great couple that was, she was a dancer in the Lion King. Yes.
And

Speaker 1 she was always busy at night, and so she could never have dinner with the family and her kids, and like it was like a thing. He's like, Well, you're never home for dinner.

Speaker 1 It's like, I'm in the Lion King, and you knew this when you married me because she had been in the Lion King

Speaker 1 for years, it's never ending. She'd been in the Lion King for as long as the earth has been spinning.

Speaker 1 Yeah, um, that's about it.

Speaker 1 I know,

Speaker 1 are you a therapy icon? Am I who? Are you a therapy icon? Yeah, yeah, I am. I meant the Lion King being what a job.
Oh, so also that is both, both. Both.
Both.

Speaker 1 Honestly, I can't believe I was never not in it.

Speaker 1 I can't believe I was in it.

Speaker 1 No, I can't believe I was ever not in it because

Speaker 1 I had a lot of therapy.

Speaker 1 Again,

Speaker 1 the Lion King. I was like,

Speaker 1 I don't think there's many roles for me in the Lion King on Broadway, but I would love to help out. I diraled you ushering.
We played giraffes.

Speaker 1 But no, therapy's great. Therapy's great.

Speaker 1 Speaking of great. Speaking of great, the album is fucking sublime.
Yeah. Good for you.
Fucking crowd.

Speaker 1 And I'm glad you responded. It seemed like you responded positively when i when i made a comparison to xcx world yes yeah yeah yeah it totally i'm like yes yes yes yes yes yes

Speaker 1 of course um no you're right and i'm i i think yeah you nailed it you nailed it um so good we love you charlie i love you both thank you for everything you do for having me

Speaker 1 of course this is pretty fun let's we end every episode with the song I'm breaking every rule for you.

Speaker 1 Wait, why do I love all your bells? You know what? I love official. Official.
It's a fan pay, bro. Official.

Speaker 1 FFF reminds me of Jared. It's what you first of all.

Speaker 1 He was my boyfriend, now he's my best friend. We figured it out in a way that I hope that couples therapy couple did.
Yeah. But official was like, I was like,

Speaker 1 whoa, like the little things are happening that make me feel like I'm going to go to distance.

Speaker 1 Great writing. These are the things that can make us official.

Speaker 1 Bye. Bye.
Bye.

Speaker 1 Lost Culture Regis is the production by by Will Fearless Big Money Players and iHeart Radio Podcasts. Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 1 Executive produced by Anna Hasnier and Hans Sani. Produced by Becca Ramos.
Edited and mixed by Doug Babe and Monique Laborde. And our music is by Henry Kabirski.

Speaker 1 Hey everybody, it's me, Matt Rogers, letting you know tickets are on sale now to see me on tour. The Prince of Christmas tour, that is.

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