“For The Night” (w/ Charli XCX) - Matt’s Pick for Best of 2024!

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All episodes of Mid-Century Modern are now streaming on Hulu. Hey everybody, this is Matt, and as you know, we are going to be taking the next few weeks off, a little winter break for us, but we wanted to use this time to not have the feed be totally empty, so we are going to be doing some re-releases.
And the intent behind these is to share some episodes that we just want to shine a light on as some of the best of the year. So this week is my choice.
And the next week you're going to hear Bowen's. And then the week after that, our producers, Anna Hosnier and Becca Ramos, have teamed up to choose their top episode of the year.
This was not a difficult decision for me at all. I have chosen For the Night with Charlie XCX, and here's a little bit about why.
I mean, I think we can all agree that Brat was the cultural phenomenon of the year. It just had so much crossover appeal in fashion and music and politics, yeesh.
But looking back, we did not know that at the time. I remember we got Brat a little bit early and I listened to it the morning of our episode and I was really struck by the honesty in Charlie's lyrics, the progression in her music, like I always am.
But there was something really different and special about Brat. And if you listen to the episode, a lot of the conversations that we have about, you know, the lyrical content and the ideas that she's engaging in, this episode was the first time where she talked about a lot of that stuff.
You even hear her say, like, in terms of Girls So Confusing, we asked her who it's about, and we have like a little bit of a fun back and forth with her about it. And's you know she's weighing whether or not to even say who it's about and then weeks later obviously you know the lord remix came out and then you know just snowballed into this cultural phenomenon that i feel like this had to be the episode that we re-released so i'm super excited to share again with you for the night with Charlie XCX.
She also has a lot of interesting, fun things to say about Salt Lake City's last season. So it's kind of reaching back to our last episode with Angie too, but I just felt like this was the perfect episode to share with all of you.
And I love Charlie and you know, the Grammys are coming up, so I guess you can consider this a for your consideration ad as well. Y'all know how I feel about Brat and how it should be taking out of the year that's just my opinion but yeah so this is for the night with Charlie XCX happy holidays thank you all so much we'll see you in 2025 next week is Bowen Yang's pick but here's Charlie for now look man oh I see wow my Bowen look over there wow is that culture yes Oh my now.
Look, man. Oh, I see.
Wow. Bowen, look over there.
Wow. Is that culture? Yes.
Oh, my goodness. Wow.
Las Culturistas. Ding dong.
Las Culturistas calling. We're off to the races here today.
We've ate some pret. British culture.
British culture. More to come.
I will say I'm a little upset about how much almond milk is in this. Okay.
if the cameras are picking this up, listeners at home who can't see this, this is Dunkin' Donuts level chicanery. It's milk with a little bit of iced coffee.
I was going to use the word chicanery too for the record. And I just want to say I wouldn't even want to walk down the street and people think that I have to do coffee like this.
Like if this is just more almond milk than anything, can'm, can I get an amen up in here in the words of RuPaul?

This is just,

there's also like a weird pallid color to it.

It doesn't have what I would call a healthy looking color.

And you guys all feel me out there.

You want coffee,

not milk.

It looks like chocolate milk. It looks like chocolate milk.

I was going to say.

Nesquik rabbit ran amok.

Last I checked,

I wasn't eight years old in my basement. Bitch.
Where I would drink chocolate milk on the regular. What's your merch story, Matt? Just with like an artist that you love.
My merch story? I'm wearing merch. I'm being vulnerable.
I'm wearing merch right now. Bowen is in Charlie merch.
And by the way, it's very cute merch, which I say is a compliment to you, the wearer, and you, the seller. My merch story is, I'm also currently wearing merch.
For driveway dolls dolls. This is Focus Features sent us this merch.
And I said, that's cute. And I will wear it on the thing.
I didn't know they were going to do this. They sent it to us.
And after seeing the movie Challengers, I thought threesome culture is sort of in. I do think it's the year of the threesome.
Of MMF. Of MMF threesome.
Yep. And so I'm just sort of encouraging that.
Yeah. Here on the podcast.
I hope you receive. Who knows what happens today during the episode? I don't think it will be an MMF threesome, but we've got MMF here.
Now, would you say that like, if between, between, let's say like MMF, two dicks, one vag, right? Sure. Let's just go in with that parameter.
Yeah. I might get so like dick confused that I'm like, yeah, of course there's a vagina in the mix.
Listen, all I know is- I'm like, it's not shocking to me. You can't think about it too hard.
I think when it comes to threesomes, you have to just take it moment by moment. Yeah, yeah.
I've had two in my life. Uh-huh.
And getting out of my way was important. No, I've had three.
So the first one, I was very in my own way the entire time.

And I was like, I am doing this with more than one person.

It's a little bit of a brain teaser.

And then the second, you just let that go and you have a wonderful time.

You know what happened to me the first time?

What?

I was facing forward, facing someone.

Great.

True north.

And it was true north.

And then jump scare behind me. Literally like, oh! Like someone stuck it in? They didn't stick it in.
They just kind of nestled behind me and I was like, oh, I forgot. The crazy thing is when you're facing True North and sort of giving that, aka you're a giving partner, and then all of a sudden you feel the third kind of really come through the back and you're like, I'm not in that zone right now.
I need to know. So let's just all communicate and take it moment by moment, everyone.
And that's sort of our treatise. Watch movie Challengers if you want a little educational video.
But again, you never see any threesome sex in Challengers. You don't see any penetration.
Anyway. What's penetrated me is the new album.
It's a really penetrative album. Emotionally penetrative.
Obviously, sonically and physically penetrative. In the best way, in a way that I invite and I'm open wide for.
Angels, if you're listening, this might be offensive to the guests. If you mourn XCX World the way that some of us out here do, this album is going to give you everything you want and more.
You're about to party. We're about to party.
But you're also about to feel, and this is what I love about our guest, and it's just so sort of singular and iconic, is what I love is emotional pop music. And you always get our guest's perspective, her POV.
It's always interesting and specific, no matter it is. I was telling Bowen like when we were just at Pret-a-Manger where we have all of our good conversations.
I'm a huge fan of our guest ballads. You're a ballad girl.
I'm a ballad girl and like you give that and I'm just so excited. The new album Brat is coming out June 7th.
June 7th. She's doing the Brat tour and then she's going to the Sweat tour with Troye Sivan and then she's going back to the Brat Tour So she's doing Brat Sweat Brat Why are you laughing? It's just so funny that I'm just silent I'm like I'm not sure what I'm supposed to Don't you worry 1, 2, 3 Try the X, the X That was so fun Just listening to you guys gab away.

We're gabbers.

We can say the same thing about what you gab and sing about on your records.

We're having fun too.

Oh good.

You are the most fun.

You do truly intrinsically understand how to make us have fun.

Oh, that's so nice.

We were having fun on the way.

You've got a big day.

Got a big day.

We're recording this.

We're going to release it closer to the album release. But you're going on Seth with Troy.
Yeah. And then Watch What Happens Life also with Troy.
Are you on with the housewife? Do you know? No, I'm so sad about that. You're just on solo? No, it's another man.
Okay. I couldn't tell you who it is.
Yeah, exactly. And I love that we will find out later who it is when the episode airs and we'll be like, oh, that's who.
And I'll be like, I love you. I love you.
I'm such a fan. Summer House Martha's Vineyard.
I love that show. Exactly, exactly.
I think his name's Joe. Joe.
Joe Biden. It's you and Joe Biden.
And honestly, he's going to ask you to be VP. Yeah, it's going to be amazing.
He's going to really burn it down. Yeah.
We were talking here about last time you were on, you were not as versed in the Bravo verse. True.
And now you are all in on Salt Lake City. Exactly.
And you asked us a really important question, which was you want to ask us again? Yeah. My question for you both is, are you pro Monica or anti Monica? Anti, sorry.
No, no, no. that's okay.
The way we answered was- Auntie Monica. We're Auntie Monica.
We were, don't make fun of our guest accent. No, I say auntie as well.
We were, so my answer was in the beginning, when it all went down, we were very anti. We were like, get her off.

Like none of the women would want to film with her. Like she is not allowed anywhere near them.
And then now that they announced that she is no longer there, we're like, oh, it's going to miss something. It's the travesty.
My thing is like, I just want to watch a show where everyone speaks to each other because it gets boring when you have a cast that's like, I'm not talking to her. like you'll see once you branch out

to other franchises

it's like

when a cast is like

f***ing each other because it gets boring when you have a cast that's like, I'm not talking to her. You'll see once you branch out to other franchises, it's like when a cast is not operating as a group, it's bad.
And they were also scorched earth with Monica at the end, like unwilling to speak to her. Can you give thoughts on Mary Cosby from your Charlie perspective? I mean, this woman is just...
She's on the album. She's going to be on the on a track.
Yeah. The full remix record is just her.
It's just Mary. She is...
I mean, I don't even know where you begin. Right.
It's like, I love her and I hate her. Sure.
But do we all agree? I love her and I hate her. You love her and I hate her? No, that's totally fair.
My friend saw her at Sunset Tower. Oh, wow.
Sheik, sheik plays was really rude to her. She was like, my friend was like, oh, can I sit here at the bar? And she was like, no.
And then my friend was like, do you have someone coming? She was like, yeah. And then obviously no one came.
And it was just for her bag. Oh my god, Mary.
But then at the same time, I'm like, legend. Yeah, legend.
Let her legend. Let her do what she wants.
The inbred comment? Yeah. I was going to say, and then she called your friend inbred or something.
I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But the inbred comment followed up with Heather asking her, did you really call me inbred? And she goes, I did. I did.
I guess. Iconic.
Yeah, you dumb bitch. I did.
Do you realize that kind of thing? I do. I do.
And then when they like went through it at the reunion too, it was so bizarre because Heather was kind of just like threw up her hands and was like, listen, I respect that she said it. She speaks her truth.
It's like, can you please just swing one fist? Heather, come on. Do we all agree though? They talk to her like she's five years old.
Either she's a mental patient, which she might be. And like, she's a five-year-old.
They're afraid of her. They're afraid.
I mean, she gets a lot of free passes. Yeah.
You know? Because, well, that was funny. When she was on Watch What Happens Live, like, they asked her a question, like, why'd you come back? And she fully just goes, to help you guys out.
And I said, not a lie. But again, I mean, love.
Love. Because you want to know why there's like not a thirsty bone in her body or like a bothered bone in her body because you can tell she doesn't really get it.
So she's just like going to show up and say whatever the fuck it is. The rumor is now that she called Lisa Barlow's youngest son the R word.
That is the rumor that's happening for next season. Thoughts on that.
You don't have to read that. I see.
I see. I see.
I can imagine it happening. You can imagine it happening.
I can imagine it happening. I'm fascinated by her wardrobe.
Yes. And the choices.
And the choices. Many colors, many patterns.
It's like she got dressed in the dark five times in a row. And then she just went out with all of it on.
And isn't it funny that she's like the fashion girl? She's the fashion girl. I mean, the thing is, she's going to come for us.
So are you ready? If she hears this, she's coming for us. I don't think she cares.
I don't think she cares what we think. Yeah, maybe.
That would be a chic feud for you though. Charlie XTX and Mary M.
Cosby. That's what no one would ever see coming.

No, it would be so good.

It would be so good.

I'm pro Monica.

You're pro Monica.

That's great.

I just want to pivot back to that.

I'm pro Monica.

And you said to us,

you know, what she did wasn't really that bad.

And we agree,

but it would be like if Troy ran a troll account for like an anti-Charlie Troy.

Like everyone leave after my set. But is, was she, okay, here's the thing.
I'm pretty like flag in the sand on like I'm pro Monica, but I haven't actually done much research into reality Vontae. So I'm basing that on nothing.
But I've heard from friends who I trust dearly that she wasn't really like talking shit about the women so it was really more of a Jen Shah thing and obviously that was her narrative on the show which I was a little bit like but you know God love her but I was like surely she's using that a little bit but my reliable friends say that that was the case That she wasn't really talking about the women. I believe you're reliable friends.
So then I'm just like, also I'm like, guys, you're on Housewives. Yeah, I know what it was though.
You know? Stop calling Kessel Black. 100%.
She ran out of steam when it came to defending herself and explaining it. Like I felt like she sort of like threw up the white flag as it were when it was go time.
It was like, okay, this is the reunion. Explain what it was and what exonerates you about this.
And it felt like she kind of just took it because she got confused and started to lean into the villain narrative. Right.
Thinking that's what people would want when it was like, no, what you want is to stay on the show and they won't film with you unless you can explain yourself, get them on board. And then I think she was like gearing up to bring out that burn book prop.
Like she was like prop focus. That was rough and a half.
The burn book didn't land. No, no.
That all went a bit awry, didn't it? I think so. Yeah.
You've got a Mean Girls track on your album. I have.
I love this song. Love it.
Oh, thank you. Because it really is for that girl.
Thank you. And for gays that are trying to be that girl that day.
Yeah. You know what's interesting about that song is, I'm going to take these off.
Do I have marks there? No, you don't. Okay, excellent.
So the thing is about the Mean Girls song on that album is that it's kind of like... A fascination with women like that and the culture.
Yeah. Oh, you know what? I was actually totally in my brain talking about a different song on my record.
No, now I remember talking about Mean Girls. Yep, sorry.
No, that really is just about like being a bitch. Yeah.
Which we love. Which we love.
Which we love.

What song were you thinking of?

Sorry.

I was thinking,

sorry.

I was thinking about girls so confusing.

Yeah.

Okay.

I have questions about this.

And okay.

You don't have to.

I wonder if you have answers.

I think you've already.

And look,

we're not entitled to any information.

Okay.

Who's this about?

No.

Mary Ann Cosby. Totally.
No, you know,by. Totally.
This is early. This is the first time I've spoken about this song.
You guys are the first people to ask me. I haven't quite decided whether I'm revealing.
No problem. When I wrote it, I was like, I'm revealing.
But now the time is here. I'm like, oh, I'm revealing.

Do you think I should reveal?

Don't, not for your benefit,

just in general.

I think that whatever is going to,

I feel like at some point,

yeah, in 30 years.

My thing is,

people are going to guess.

Yeah.

I feel like you probably both have an accurate guess.

And I'm not going to ask you

to say it out loud

because you'll tell by my face.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

But afterwards, I'm going to ask. It's probably that person.
You know? Say it with your eyes. I think it's yeah.
Okay. Now I think I have the same feelings on this person.
I have to explain that song. So the thing is it's like I think we live in this world music right now where like women are like, I support other women.
I love women. I'm a feminist.
And that's great. Like love that.
But there's artifice to it. It's a lot.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I don't think that you become a bad feminist if you maybe don't see eye to eye with every single woman. That's just like not the nature of human beings.
You know, there is a competitiveness between us. There is envy.
There is camaraderie. There is, you know, all of these different like dynamics.
And I mean, I feel that working in entertainment, there is this kind of dance that we all do with each other, whether you're in music whether in your you're in your world like no matter how you identify there is this dance that everybody's everybody's watching each other everybody's like posing in the picture like hey everybody's nice to see you yeah my collaborator and good friend yeah but then you're also like i want what they have and then the next day you're like, they suck. I killed it today.
And this happens, but no one really is like willing to discuss it. But we've, we all probably have our person.
Yes. Or maybe a few different people.
And I'm sure we are that person for other people. And I just find that there is this like strange, like unsoken thing that often happens particularly with women because there is such a narrative of pitting women against each other within music and sometimes that's not totally like fabricated you know what I'm saying sometimes there is like what's the phrase smoke whether smoke this fire like I do feel like that sometimes does happen and sometimes it's like, I don't know, everybody's just doing this little like square dance.
Totally. Well, like this idea of like, oh, women are pitted against each other.
That shouldn't make you feel any worse or more complicated about the fact that like it happens. It's not, why is it this red line all of a sudden? You're not supposed to get into any other conflict with any of the peers.
It's unrealistic. It's unrealistic.
And you're not saying fuck her. You're saying it's confusing when I feel like we got a lot of people saying that we do great stuff together.
It feels like the vibe is good. Then I'm confused.
It's like, am I okay with who the audience might fill in this spot? That's the, that's the other thing about it. It's like, for me, this is like my favorite part of the high artness of music and the low artness of like pop star, pop culture.
Discourse. Like I like the marriage of the two and I like that maybe people are getting it wrong, but they're like having fun playing the game.
Because I think that that brings like kind of this three-dimensional world to songs, you know, outside of just like, the song's really good. It's like, it's nice to plant like theories and ideas and let people like live their kind of Paris Lindsay fantasy with it.
Engage in that way. So it's fun.
But I also think it does this thing of like, with the whole record, I'm kind of like doing that in ways it's like holding a mirror to this kind of culture that we're in right now where everybody is really, I feel like everybody is like their moral compass has to be so in check all the time. But it's like sometimes it's just like fun if it's not yeah and everybody the listeners like your moral compass isn't always like bang on like everybody's a little fuck everybody's like little like shady everybody has like thoughts of all these different things like everyone's kind of a bitch sometimes and that's.
Like it doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you a flawed human being.
Yeah, a dynamic person. And we want artists to put that into work too because it like, I mean, I can't stand the morality thing as it applies.
But when did pop stars, and let's just include and lump in like actors and shit, like when did they become like moral paragons? Because like, act shots from our mom, like in the 70s there would be signs up that said no actors it's like we were like we like they were like the rowdy fucking like chaotic people and that's what like everyone understood them to be it's like these are not good people keep them out you know what I mean and like maybe that's okay yeah I wonder like it's interesting this celebrity culture especially over the past like 10 maybe 15 years has really like changed a lot in that i think niceness became a commodity yeah whereas before niceness wasn't cool right you know it wasn't like cool to be nice no yeah and then like suddenly it really was it was like oh well if you're not nice like you're dead you know but it She just used to be nice. And then suddenly it really was.
It was like, oh, well, if you're not nice, you're dead. But it actually just used to be really cool to be like cunty and a bitch.
And I feel like we're slowly edging back there, but I still think we're in our nice era. I still feel like we're in our like, everybody has to be so nice all the time.
And that's cool cool if you're like really actually just like chill and nice.

Yeah.

But sometimes I'm like,

I see through it.

You see through it.

And we all do.

Totally.

I think everything is too sensitive

now to actually hide who you are.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like the media is like,

if people are watching,

they're watching so closely

so that you can't really get away

with like putting on a persona anymore

that's like really different

from who you are

because we see so much of it

and we're inundated

in the discourse and et cetera

that like we're from who you are because we see so much of it and we're inundated in the discourse and etc. That like we're ahead of the game that you're playing.
Right. Unless you play it like really well.
Yeah. Which some people do.
Really good team to cover shit up. Yeah.
But I feel like and I mean this on such a complimentary level you I feel like you've stuck to your cuntiness the whole the whole way through thank you yeah well i appreciate that it's funny it's like i think i can be bitchy i don't know that i'm a bitch right that is a big distinction you know like i'm never gonna be horrible to someone yeah for the sake of it because it's actually i personally personally find it a lot harder to be like deliberately like dismissive or mean or whatever. You know what I mean? And don't get me wrong.
I'm sure I have my bad days. Like I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I'll also just like tell it how it is.
And I think that gets misconstrued as being mean, but it's actually just, I'm just being real because I don't think that it's that interesting to have this sort of like facade of like... It tastes a lot of energy.
You can twist yourself into a fucking knot. And what would really...
Well, we're all going to die. 100%.
And I'm just like, why don't you just like have like have fun I mean I think this album is kind of like on this front line where a lot of a lot of artists are doing this now where it is like transparency I'm bringing the fourth wall like you're singing about AG and Sophie and like Hudmo like for the first time probably right yeah in a little way and like you're being very real about shit like you're singing I don't want to spoil the rest of the album, but like you're singing about things

that like are very surprising.

And I'm like,

oh, I didn't think she would be,

she would have a song about like,

I think,

is that I think about it all the time?

Yeah, yeah.

The song about babies.

Track 14 is that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

It is track 14.

I just remember because,

track 14.

No, no.

It's so old school analog.

Yes.

I just remember it goes into the last track

and I love the two together because it's such a psych out like it's like you're talking about like really weighing things in the way where you are in life like now is the time when I should maybe really think about a family if that's what I want like is it okay with you that I think about this like this occupies a lot of space and then the a blank. And I was like, is this her answering it or is this her having fun? Yeah.
Or is it both? It's not the answer because I definitely, I don't think I have an answer. Yeah.
If you have baby fever, do cocaine is what you're saying. Yeah, totally.
Yeah, yeah. All brand deals gone.
So that's cool.

But no, I don't have an answer,

but I think it's an interesting question to muse over because I mean,

do you guys have many friends who have kids?

Our female friends are really starting.

I mean, like even in the past six to eight months,

like four or five of my friends have had their.

Yeah.

Like one of my friends had her third kid.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

Our age.

It's like, wow. Is this your friend group group I don't have loads of friends who have kids yet but I had kind of one like major friend in my life who's a songwriter who had a baby and she was kind of the inspiration for this song because I went to her house to visit her in Stockholm with her partner they've been together for for like years, but they never really were like, we're having kids.
It just kind of happened for them, you know? And then it was just so crazy going over to their apartment, writing songs with them. She's wearing the same clothes she always wore.
The apartment's the same. They're exactly the same.
We're writing songs, but it's just like, everything is different because she has the key to this door that like, I'm not even in the same room as yet. Do you know what I mean? You talk about this, like it's almost like they now know something you don't know and it's that wanting that like is driving the question in you.
Exactly. That's really interesting.
Exactly. And it's like, you don't, not to say that you can't, you know, get the same sort of level of intimacy purpose and intimacy I'm not saying that but I just I think particularly like with her for me I was just like wow like we used to be so similar and now your worldview even though you're saying all the same things and you're the same person you're also just like completely different because you have this new perspective that I can't even really begin to understand yet you know and it's just strange but does it not give you some comfort that like she she is wearing the same clothes nothing about her absolutely no no it's totally comforting but then it's at the same time it's just like am I missing out like and I think for me it drives me to this place of like, do I want kids? Will I feel this new lease of life and this whole new world open up if I have kids? Will I feel resentment towards the kid? Will I seamlessly be able to do both things in exactly the way that I want? No, not unless i like kind of disregard the kid like you know you want to do an amazing job at both yeah and so i would also if i were in that position i don't i'll never have children but if i were really if it was something that was on my mind i would worry that it would like harm my passion and like what i know I'm supposed to do you know what I mean like is it going to change the way that I relate to myself as like this person who like in your case is out there creating and like being this like top idol and then I don't know like it would it would change a lot like you don't know that you're going to be exactly like your friend wearing the same shit, talking about the same shit.
Like for some people, it really changes. But I feel like you have already been through a situation where everything was taken from you in some sense with lockdown.
Like your response to that was like how I'm feeling now. So I feel like in a big life change situation like that, you already kind of, I'm not saying it would happen exactly that way, but you already know that like your response would be to like keep making art.
Yeah, that's pretty interesting. I never thought of it like that.
No? Connecting dots? Everybody has been there. Traffic was a nightmare.
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Now, I could be talking about when you're by a fire and you have to sort of step away from it or when a big wave is coming and you don't want to get wet. But of course, in this scenario, I'm facing towards my friends on the beach.
Yes. And they go, Matt, Matt.
And I go, oh my God, there's a wave. I take a small step forward and it made a huge difference.
I could have gotten my feet wet, Bo. Anyway, that makes sense.
Yeah. So I'm also talking about how a small step forward can make a big difference in your financial future.
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Go to chime.com forward slash disclosures for details. This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate.
Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires. She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend, Nikki, who stays by her side through it all.
FX is dying for sex. All episodes streaming April 4th on Hulu.
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That's Z-O-L-A dot com. Okay, so I don't know if you've been outside lately, but I got to tell you, spring is springing and it's giving me that travel itch like it always do.
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Last time I saw you was at SNL and at the good nights, you were like, what's going on after? And I was like, there's a horse meat disco. And then I almost took you.
No, but I went after. You didn't miss much.
That was that. We love horse meat.
I mean, you know this because you do it. But it's.

It's a lot of it.

It's a lot of energy.

It's late.

It's late.

SNL is late.

It's late.

But like the boiler room set looks fucking hot.

No, that was late.

But it's.

I mean, this is like.

Late.

Because when do you end?

One.

One.

And then you go to the funny Mexican restaurant.

Where was it?

Rosa Mexicana. Rosa Mexicana.
What is. Okay.
We okay. We rotate restaurants.
Yeah, go, go, go. Why isn't it, okay.
The same place? Why isn't it just a better place? You know what? You really roll the dice. And I can say this and he can't.
But like sometimes I'm like, where are we going? And it's either a fuck yes or a come on. But has it? It has been a fuck yes.

I've been to two.

Yeah.

And they would,

I went Rosa Mexicana.

Rosa Mexicana was Oscar Isaac.

Yeah.

That's when Oscar Isaac was host.

And I mean,

I had fun.

I had fun.

You had a margarita.

But it was funny.

And you described it as a funny restaurant.

And it is a very funny restaurant.

It's hilarious.

And we love Rosa Mexicana so much.

We love them.

We love them.

But we want a table tonight. Brand deal's gone.
My brand deal with Rosa Mexicana is gone. It's hilarious.
And we love Rosa Mexicana so much. We love them.
We love them. But we want a table tonight.

Brand deal's gone.

My brand deal with Rosa Mexicana

is gone.

It's gone.

But I,

like,

so Charlie Famously.

But surely it's not a budget thing.

It kind of is.

Like,

it's getting a little slush.

I know.

It's a budget thing.

No,

Charlie,

you need to come back

when the party is at

La Venue,

at Saks.

It's chic.

There's room to walk around. But Charlie Famously was the musical guest during the Omicron episode where it fucking, Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, musical guest during the Omicron episode where it fucking crashed down.
Oh, everyone was gone, right? Well, can I say, can I reveal? Like on the monitors on Thursday, like all the writers were fucking screaming because it was like, oh my God, it's like Caroline Polichek's here. Christine's here.
They're doing new shapes. And then the world missed out on like the three of you being on the same stage on TV doing new shapes.
It was, that was crazy. That was crazy.
Also because, yeah, I guess we never did that performance. Oh, fuck.
We were on a, did you see a sound check? We were on a spinning platform. So cool.
And like, I love Caroline and Christine, but my God, it was crazy.

You guys go crazy on that. It was like,

Caroline wanted the platform

to spin one way,

at one speed.

Christine wanted to spin

the other way.

I was like,

I don't care which way

the fucking platform spins.

I just get it going.

As long as we decide.

Everyone has COVID.

It was just like,

so stressful.

It was just like a lot.

And then we finally figured out,

we were feeling so good about it.

We're like dancing on the platform. We're not falling over.
We like, we fucking killed it. And then we're literally, we were in like, we were getting ready.
And then on Saturday? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was in gum. And then Caroline was like, it's not happening.
I was like, what do you mean? You're not coming. And she was like, no, it's like, it's.
They pulled the plug on it. Yeah.
Yeah. Was that what happened? They pulled the plug on it entirely? Well, not my meatball sketch.
Thank God. Oh, yes.
Charlie played a meatball. No, but that was the Oscar Isaac show.
Was it? That was the second show. That was the time you came back.
Oh, I got a chicken. Chicken.
I did some pre-taped sketch. Oh, you were a chicken or a parrot? You were a parrot.
You were a parrot. Yeah.
And I was kind of like, oh, well, at least I kept that a little bit. Oh my God.
It was like me and Paul, it was Paul Rudd, right? It was Paul Rudd, yeah. Wow.
That's a good one though, to play a chicken with Paul Rudd, that's so SNL coded. Yeah, it was.
It's like I went on there and I did sketch comedy. Yeah.
I was a chicken. I was a chicken and a meatball.
But then you were, but then the second show you did Baby and then what did you do? I did Beg for You. Beg for You.
Yeah. Oh my.
And Reno wasn't there for you. Reno was not there.
But speaking of Sunset Tower, Sunset Tower holds a very special place in my heart because that was where I was when Crash came out. The whole album.
And I like, it was just me in a room, listening to that whole album, went to the tour. You were fantastic.
And I still say that that is the most well-behaved audience yeah because it's these lovely e-boys and girls yeah just jump up and down vertical no one's like throwing elbows in the pit you know what i mean everyone like watches their space and they're so so well-behaved they're polite the angels are polite but with this do you want them to get a little a little more chaotic? I always want them to get chaotic. Whenever they, you know, I'm lucky because whenever I bump into like a mass group of angels, they're very like sweet.
You know, they like wait in line. They like have the lids off their Sharpie.
Like they're organized. Oh my God, I love it.
Yeah, it's never like a shit show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I saw this TikTok of Paris Hilton had done like a signing. Yeah.
And it had got a little hectic and someone had like drawn on her like Chanel bag with a Sharpie. And I was just like that.
I mean, I'm sure there's like- Not in your class. There's lots more where it came from,

but that is really like, that's such a bummer.

Beyond the pale.

That would never happen with the angel.

Not on your blue blanciaga sling.

No, no.

Do you still put a banana in it?

Always.

I always travel.

I brought a banana here.

Left it on the plane.

You did.

You have my favorite.

What's in my bag?

Because you have the banana.

You have the Laneige.

Yes.

And you have the Barreto.

Is it the true emotion? No, no, no, no. That'sed emotions.
You and I have the same fragrance. I'm wearing La Tulipe today.
I haven't done it before. It's a Bireto.
A new fragrance is a thing. I've switched and it's just like.
What are you on? I am on De Los Santos

from Byredo.

Yeah, okay.

I have that too.

And I will say

Bo and Yang really tried

to get me into Sunday Cologne

and that was not for me.

Is that Marchella?

No, no.

It's Byredo.

It's Byredo as well.

It's called Sunday.

Yes, Sunday something.

Rainy Sunday?

No, that's Marchella.

I think it's called Sunday Cologne.

It's just called Sunday Cologne, guys.

It's called Sunday Cologne.

Sunday Cologne.

It's just Sunday Cologne.

But now I found De Los Santos

and I actually was wearing it.

It had its debut at Coachella on me and I felt very good. By the way, Coachella, tell me about Coachella.
You didn't say me, but I saw you last year. Oh, you did? That went off.
People were getting fun rowdy at that. It was fun.
How was Coachella this year? Coachella this year was fucking great. But Lana Del Rey makes an appearance in the Mean Girls song.
Yes, she does. She does.
Because hot girls listen to Lana Del Rey. Hot Mean Girls listen to Lana Del Rey.
It's true. It's true.
I feel like any cool, like genuinely cool girl, not only likes Lana Del Rey, but understands the lore of Lana in a really deep way. She's so fucking real.
She's an art figure. She really is something else.
She's symbolic, she's symbolic for something. Yeah, right.
Yes, when I was hearing that song, I was like, I see this girl. Yeah.
Yeah. You see her.
Yeah, she's like smoke skinny cigarette. And being, being.
And she's a little a little like. Yes, she's a little bit like.
She's got a vocal fry. Vocal fry.
Vocal fry. But it doesn't feel dated.
It feels very good on her. Yeah, absolutely.
And I will say being at Coachella around 75,000 of those girls. Yeah.
Was a good vibe. Cool.
And I wasn't sure about her doing the Friday night. Because I felt like that should be a party.
Like in my head, I was like, switch Doja and Lana, put Lana on Sunday night. Doja will get everything started.
And then now having seen it, I'm like, everything was exactly as it should have been. Everything was perfect.
Yeah. Yeah.
Did you go? I didn't go. No.
I've never been. I've never been.
Oh. What people do with your music though, I think, like if we're going to compare Lana heads to like angels,, Angels, people who, like, really, like, love you, I feel like you

get people to,

like, do the digging of, like, oh, my

God, like, it's this, there's this whole album

that, you know, like, they really start to, like,

dig through the crate. And

I think people love to, like, take your stuff,

all the stems, whatever, and then just, like,

rearrange it and, like, they have fun with the

building blocks that you're giving. Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think my music is, building blocks that you're giving.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think my music is like intrinsically like for the night. Yes.
You know, you can listen to it in the day. You can listen to it in the car.
But it's a party. But generally it's like the best at night time.
I remember like I saw you at the Wiltern a few years ago and just like what was happening on stage was so great. And one of my favorite songs of yours I Don't Wanna Know and like I just like you had this like really cool purple light just like I don't know just like you're not like synesthetic are you? I am I could tell yeah I could tell what do you mean like someone like got into your face and was like you're not actually no no I just it's like one of those things where you know like when you do your first interviews and it's like one of the first things you've ever said.
And then like. It follows you.
Because people are like, she's synesthetic, test her. Yeah.
But like you actually do experience that. Yeah.
And for me, it's like really helpful with writing. Yeah.
When I'm writing, I'm like, this song is purple. Like, and then I'll be like, AG, make the purple stuff.
Yes. I wanted to ask you this question about, like, when you sit down to write a song, is it, like,

because it feels like equal parts important, and obviously it is,

but I guess my question is, is it the sound and, like,

where you're going sonically that dictates what something is going to be about,

or do you come in with an emotion that you need to get out there?

With this record, it's been very much that I came in with what I wanted to say,

whereas on previous records, it's not actually really been like this like this with this record it's been so lyrically led yeah like I've been like I want to write a song about my kind of sticky relationship with my mom and dad which was Apple or like I want to write the song about not being sure if I want to have kids or, you know, like it's been very like, it's there. It's in my head.
Like mean girls kind of like piecing that around like a few different girls. I know.
And thinking about like qualities that they have and putting that in a song. 360.
Love. So fucking good.
And your bookends are there. It's sick.
Thanks. Yeah.
And with that, it was very like, okay, I want to talk about me like being like a Sonic reference for people, but through the like lens of Julia kind of being the like New York, like it girl, street fashion girl that everybody's referencing, you know? Julia Fox meaning. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like very specific.
Yeah. And then kind of fun to build out these like pop songs that hopefully like a lot of people can relate to, but they're coming from like quite a specific idea.
Yeah. Right.
And place. And why do you think it didn't happen with the other albums? It just like wasn't the way it was? I think I was writing very much like the way I would write on previous records.

We would build a track and then I would get on the microphone and literally be like. And then figure out the lyrics later.
And then I would figure out the lyrics that fit the vowel sounds I was kind of making. So there was already this sort of like map of sound that, you know, I was trying to fit words to.
You're saying this is lyrically led. lyrically learn and not really

focusing too much

on rhyme

or worrying about

like what fits

within a stanza

or trying to fit words to you're saying this is lyrically led lyrically and not really focusing too much on rhyme or worrying about like what fits within a stanza or anything like that you know so actually just i was really able to kind of just write lyrics that i would actually say in a conversation rather than crafting them into this sort of like song version of what i would say and even like melodically in the way that like the song forms around us, like even with girls so confusing, it's girl. You know what I mean? Like there's something there that's the melody, like the way you really say it.
Like, I want to do this. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's just like it feels like it's born out of something you want to say this time.
And to hear that you say that is. Yeah.
It works. But back on this thing of like, I think this is like extremely transparent in the way.
And it is like holding up this mirror because like the Rorschach test of this album is the cover and everyone having all these opinions about like the cover, right? And I think you kind of threw it back at people in a nice way where you're like, no, this is actually like, this completely reveals what you think like a pop girlie should appear and how they should put out their work and stuff like that which i think is great but i think with the content of the album it's more about like guys like i think about like crazy dark shit about like my career i'm not putting words in your mouth but it's like i think it is your most vulnerable album because you are being very honest about like how you regard yourself in a way that would have never occurred to me you know what I mean like there are allusions to like your career being in this in between and I'm like oh like six albums in like you feel that way yeah totally well I just it's I think there aren't many people who have a path that I have. There are some, Robin being one.
And I think that's why there's a lot of like synergy between the two of us. But, you know, somebody who had, speaking about Robin now, huge commercial success.
Yeah. Right at the beginning of her career.
Yes. And then kind of had to like rebrand and then became this kind of gay icon, kind of like girl of the night.
No, that sounds wrong. But you know, like nighttime music, like club, like always, no matter what she does, is always going to be kind of like looked upon as like a really important artist who's kind of like treading new ground and you know yeah kind of like timeless yes and I think you know we share similarities in that you know not my first music but music for my second record was globally like commercially successful but at that point of time And for me, I didn't really have my artistry kind of totally figured out in the way that I feel that I do have now I mean there were definitely like good through threads but when I look at for example like Sauer Olivia Rodrigo I'm like oh I wish I'd done Sucker kind of like that like because I think there are parallels within those universes but I think she just did it better because I think she I don't know I don't think I knew myself that well at that point in time when I was doing that record and I look at some of the decisions she made and I'm like oh wow it's like still very like pop and kind of like touching on this like live like punk-ish stuff yeah but it's done in a way that to me is still very cool whereas I feel like when I look back on Sucker there are elements of it that I'm like oh that was just a bit annoying you know what I mean I've told you though that like True Romance is still the perfect I don't know how you feel about that album, but it's like, I feel like that is still core Charlie.
That is still like, that's the through thread. That's the through line.
You know what I mean? Like, I still listen to So Far Away and I'm like, this is fundamentally the same stuff she's putting in, she's put out through her whole career. And like, that is like music of the night.
Yeah, totally. It's like, the beginnings like bedroom pop this whole thing now that has this whole you know life and culture around it like i think you really broke ground in that way with it like yeah sucker is its own thing and that must have been so strange and so complicated but it's still a great record true romance i think it's still like you you can always always fall back on that first record is like yeah I love that record.
I love that record. But yeah, anyways, I think it's like, it's just interesting.
My career hasn't been like A to B. It's been like kind of, it's like a weird.
A, J, P, Q, R. It's everywhere.
There's that T in there, yeah. Totally.
And it's like straddling this commercial thing. Also being a songwriter, also being linked to the underground and disregarding that and coming back.
You know, it's a mess. It's not a mess.
I think I'm sure you're- It's a mess in a nice way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People don't have that trajectory anymore

because people are so afraid to take the risk, whether from the label or from the artist themselves. I think you have been so good about using whatever the apparatus is, whatever you have within you to just make it.
That's how I'm feeling now is to me. It's like you just fucking made it.
Thank you. You know what I mean? Everybody has been there.
Traffic was a nightmare. You got home late and your dinner plans are out the window when you hear the inevitable tiny voice saying, I'm hungry.
That's when dinner dread sets in. What are you going to make tonight? How can such a simple question be so hard to answer? Well, it doesn't have to be, because a delicious, family pleasing meal from Stouffer's is only a ding away.
So, if your dinner plans are derailed, don't worry. Just turn to a delicious solution from Stouffer's, a meal that will always leave everyone happy.
Especially you. Especially me.
With the lasagna! Maybe some chicken enchiladas? Spaghetti with meat sauce is always a winner. Or how about some cheesy chicken and broccoli pasta bake? Yes, please.
When the clock strikes dinner, thanks Stouffer's. Shop now for family favorites.
This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires.
She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend Nikki, who stays by her side through it all. FX is dying for sex.
All episodes streaming April 4th on Hulu. Look, we all know it's a challenge to get into a new space and make it feel like it's ours, but it also can be really fun.
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You have had these, like, when you describe it as a mess, it is interesting because it's like, there's these spikes of, like, these mainstream moments. Like, going back to, like, Boom Clap.
Like, that being in, like, Love, Simon. Yeah.
Like, that was, like, some... Fault in Our Stars.
Oh, Fault in Our Stars. But it's, like, the same.
It's the same. But I guess that's what I mean.
It's like, that kind of was our Fault in Our Stars. They both lived, I guess.
They were still gay, though. Yeah.
But like that, and then I remember it was a few years ago now, but we were in the Fire Island movie, and when we found out that the boys' remix was going to be in our trailer. Yeah, so cool.
I was like, thank God, because this god because this is going to get across like the fun of this it's going to make it seem even more fun than it is like and also just like there was something about doesn't that song also start promising young woman yes like so it's just like there are these like moments in like big mainstream culture that like you're right there and so i wonder how do you feel when something is perceived on that level? Is that like an exciting thing or is a little bit like, hmm? No, no, I feel good about it. It's like, okay, I think because there are some things you mentioned that, so like Fire Island, Promising Young Woman, those things feel really exciting to me and inspiring and happy to be involved in them.
But I it's like what I've learned like going back and forth between this kind of like more commercial version of myself to this kind of more I'm really just leading with like what's in my brain and my you know instinct I've just learned now from doing it so long I can't like fake I just can't like fake the commercial button like hi I'm tough girl and I'm smiling and we're here with Coca-Cola I can't do it and that's no disrespect to the people who do some people are just made to live in that world and they want to make the music that is going to really succeed in that world and it's really hard to succeed in that world like i'm not taking that away from anyone but like i just can't do it because when i've written those songs and i put them out it's like they only go so far because i think there's a block that the fans see as well they're just like she, she's not that girl. Like, that's not who she really is.
She's not that girl. Like, some of them can, like, maybe a less hardcore fan can get down with it.
But it's like, you know, it's just like when you smell a rat or whatever. It's like, I have to just be myself.
Something in the milk ain't clean when you're not being yourself. And I can't fucking...
Nor should you have to. I can't do it.
I can't do it. On album six, no.
Because it makes me miserable. Of course.
And you have to sing that music every night. I think it was Dua who said, we were just talking to her about her album and we were talking about this theme that she has of positivity and the messages that she has are usually like up and she's like well i have to sing it every fucking night so if it's gonna be something that's in my mouth every single night it better taste good like you know what i mean that's so funny because i'm the opposite of that like if i had to sing really overly positive like boom clap is a good example obviously it's so different from like radical optimism like completely different sounding records etc but like that's funny that she says that and that makes sense for her because she is i think she is always really kind of like seizing like the positivity in life i kind of like to dwell in the yeah i like to kind of like sit in the shit and externalize that because that is also a valid emotion that people out there are feeling I have to do it that's really interesting but like I feel that this is like the pendulum has stopped swinging I just had like a vision of like me performing radical optimism and doing brat being like 365 putty girl bumping that and Dua doing Brat.
Doing Brat. Being like, 365 Putty Girl, bumping that.
And then me doing... Illusion.
Yeah. And like, both of us being on our, like, the versions of what those tours are.
And I want to see that. How's that, how's it going down? But this is how you know that, like, you're doing the right thing is that, like, you, like, we love Dua.
It would be crazy if she did 360 and it would be a kind of crazy if you did radical optimism. It's like, you are doing the thing you were meant to do.
It is purely externalized from whatever your inner life is. And I feel like you're, what you're saying is maybe the pendulum has stopped swinging.
Like you've landed in this nice space of like, I'm in between or I'm more of this one thing that I am this thing. And like, I feel like reflective surfaces big part of this album.
You look in the mirror and you see me and you're holding up a mirror to society. Am I being so stupid? She saw you illuminate me.
I went, hmm. The reflective surface motif.
But like, use it. Yes, I'm using it.
Come on. Use it like a mirror.
Like a mirror. We got to ask Charlie the question.
Yes, we do. So this is the central question of Lost Cult.
It's what was the culture that made you say culture is for you? You can look back and be like, I am largely me because of this thing I experienced. I think it was, and maybe this is not very surprising, but I think it was like the London rave scene and that like culture of like London warehouse parties that I kind of came up through.
Yep. Because that sort of in turn put me very on to kind of like club kids stuff when I was younger.
And when I was in art school school I was always kind of like in this sort of like Lee Bowery like inspired like Michael Alec kind of yeah yeah but still but like there's a cool scene yeah yeah like those parties like that level of yes totally and that level of kind of like DIY aesthetic with clothes and music yeah, I think that really formed who I am. So chic.
How did you find it? I think it was from starting going to these parties because when, it must've been like 2007, 8 when I was going in London. So you were young.
I was young. I would go with my parents.
Oh, wow. Which was not cool.
Were you guys like in Essex going to London? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They would drive me.
I would get asked ahead of MySpace and I knew this like promoter who was like come and play and we would like drive into London and I would play at like 3 a.m. So you were being booked for these? Yeah, I was being booked.
Wow. And that was kind of my first like look into kind of nightlife and like party culture.
And at that point in time, I guess it was like our version of Indie Sleaze. It was New Rave, which was like, you know.
Sure, sure. Yeah.
And so that was sort of like a kind of regurgitation of, you know, all the prior, like, first, second wave of club kids that were coming before. So I kind of just got sort of like sucked in through that way.
And then you learned about the prior wave. It felt like education.
There was some like rooting for this. It wasn't like it just kind of came up out of nowhere.
Like you had history to like soak into. Yeah, i had to soak in the history because i wanted to

understand like what michael alec was doing and what like that original like club scene and like those club kids were doing back here in new york and those levels of like crazy parties they would throw like they threw one on a bridge where it all they like shut both ends of the bridge and like you know just this like a law of like partying and how that kind of like spawned into music and then began to kind of create like new sounds of music i think that it's like such a rich thing for me yeah yeah yeah like oh like you like at the limelight would have been so fucking country. Imagine.
Yeah. Wild.
Imagine. Where do you live now? Do you still like? I'm half in LA and half in London.
Yeah. Back and forth.
Yeah. LA out of necessity or do you like it? I am beginning to maybe be over it.
I've been there for 10 years. Oh, that feels like, that feels like double the amount of time it would take to be over it.
I'm thinking about New York, actually. I've never lived here.
I think New York and London, I guess if you were someone who wanted two different experiences in the two places you live, I'm here because I want to rest, meaning LA, and I'm here because I want to be included in what's going on and the culture.

That's London, but New York is New York.

Yeah.

I do love London.

You can rest in New York.

I do love London too.

Did you love performing at Coachella?

I was honestly so scared.

Was it scary?

Yeah, because with Coachella-

You were on the Coachella stage.

Yeah, and everyone was like,

it's all about the live stream.

Everyone's stressing about the live stream. Everyone's like stressing

about the live stream.

So that made me kind of

treat it more like TV.

Oh, got it.

Was it helpful or no?

Well, I was happy with

how it looked

and how I sounded

because I was thinking

so much about the broadcast,

but it definitely like

was just stressful.

That was a major,

you know,

it was a major change. So I remember we saw Chapel in the Gobi tent.
And then right after that, we walked over to Sabrina Carpenter on the Coachella stage. And I remember it felt like the energy was lower, but then I was like, oh, but on this stage, they're thinking about the live stream.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas in like the Gobi and Sahara Tense, they're just giving a live show.

Right, right.

And it feels like that.

Like, so the live experience does feel,

I would imagine,

like more alive there.

And maybe as the performer,

it feels more connected.

Whereas like on the Coachella stage

where you were,

it is a lot about like,

they're watching at home.

Yeah, it was scary.

Yeah.

That's okay.

Yeah.

I mean.

Whatever.

Would Lee Bauer be here? You crushed. I was having the best time.
He wouldn't be there. He wouldn't be there.
That's okay. Would Lee Bowery be here? You crushed.
I was having the best time. He wouldn't be there.
Lee Bowery used to do these videos, these little short films of him teaching you how to have tea. He was just so adorable.
That's what people don't talk about with Lee Bowery. It's the looks and all these things, but all these things, but it's like, at his heart, he was just like sensitive.
He was Australian, right? Australian? Yeah. Australian.
It got me confused as a Brit, but you know, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right.
No, we can't look it up. I hope you're both wrong.
We can never know. I hope you're both wrong.
But like, did it take you like, was there a developmental thing for you to like, grow up in that and then be like, I'm going to like, do you like do you like I'm gonna make this like part of me I don't think it was a choice you know I think it's like it just I gravitated so yeah hard towards it I think it was like I saw elements of myself in what was being created in the worlds that I was looking into. There was, there was like a punkness and like a kind of freeness.
And it felt that there was like a possibility to be a little messy and not perfect and not look a certain type of a way to still be able to express yourself and feel really like validated or something. And I think I was searching for that a lot when I was growing up.
And that that could be a version of success is just going there and participating and being in the culture and being around people that make you feel good and not this like more calculated metric of like, well, did this happen? Did you look like this? And being rewarded for being a freak i think that was i think that was something that really like made me like gravitate towards that world because that was what was like celebrated like if you would like really like wearing something like weird or like you know what i mean or like you got attention you got like something yeah right i was like oh that's that's cool. You don't have to be this traditional version of beauty or talent or whatever it is.
It's like you can make a fantasy and it be valid even if it's a little fucked and ugly. You know? Or whatever.
That's your root though. That's why you don't have to worry about being the the moral model for anything it's like just like let that shit go because you started out in this like environment where like it didn't really matter like nightlife culture is about like unrepressed everything it's it's just like humanity revealing itself i'm being so like no i love it you know what i mean no i love it it's so interesting have Mighty Hoopla or been to Mighty Hoopla? I don't know what that is.
Okay, great. No problem.
It's like a big queer music festival. It's like a queer music festival.
I'm like, what is that? I was like, she's probably headlined four times. No, I don't know what that is.
There's that park that's like South London. Not Victoria.
I haven't done it. You haven't done it.
No problem. Sorry.
No, but it's like a teeny tiny Coachella, but in London with all queer adjacent artists. They've never asked me.
That's so fucked. Yeah, it's fucked.
It's fucked in a crazy way. Are you excited for tour? I am.
Have you guys been wanting to tour together? It feels like such a natural fit. Yeah, you know, we have the same manager.
Oh, yeah. Our manager has been trying to get us to tour together for years.
Yeah. And every time we're like, yeah, like, obviously we love each other.
But I think the music has never quite lined up. And now it's like so lining up, you know.
So this time when our manager, like for like literally the fifth time, was like, do you guys want to score together? We were like, yeah, we do. Because it really made sense and we could see how it would really flow and work together.
Stuff sung together? I think so. To be honest, we're still putting it together.
But I think that, yes. It's what people would want.
I mean, I don't think it's going to be like a full medley situation but there's definitely going to be a few moments together I did see you guys on the same show I think it was also at the Will Turn you guys were on the same show it was a bunch of artists it was a festival that I think we both did together yeah because I remember just seeing you both and I forget why it was a Pride festival that maybe was Troy's invention but maybe it was also mine but I don't remember Troy invented Pride he totally did yeah he pioneers it every year he did yeah well it's gonna be it be fun. I cannot wait.
People were freaking out over the ticket situation. Which is always a good feeling when it's like, people get tickets.
I know. So, yeah, we're so happy.
We're really happy. It's going to be fun.
It's like pretty quick. Uh-huh.
I know. It's like a couple months, right? It's like not even.
Is it like five weeks? Okay. Six weeks? Where is it in New York? Is it MSG? Yes, it's MSG.
Obviously, we'd love for you both to come. Oh, we're coming.
It's going to be really fun. You know, I've paid top dollar for you.
Like, I don't want the coffee. You don't have to anymore.
Oh, God. Oh, fine.
I'll take it if I have to. I'll take it if I have to.
I'll take it if I have to. I did hear a story one time of, I won't say any details until after, but there was an artist who was in a big feud with this other famous person.
And the famous person reached out like years after to like get tickets to a show. And the person just sent back a ticket link and said, buy one.
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Catch the new Hulu original comedy Mid-Century Modern from the creators of Will & Grace, executive producer Ryan Murphy, and director James Burroughs. When three best friends move in together, Palm Springs will never be the same.
Bunny, Jerry, and Arthur are already close friends, but when they decide to live together, it's a new chapter with a new family. And speaking of family, don't forget Bunny's mom, Sybil, who's along for the ride.
Whether it's a trip to Fire Island or a local congresswoman with a wild side, these roomies know how to do it with style. They're fun, they're fabulous, and they're turning life's lemons into spiked lemonade.
So shake up a batch of cocktails, relax by the pool, and get ready for some serious shade. A new comedy with heart, soul, and sass, Mid-Century Modern stars Nathan Laid, Matt Bomer, Nathan Lee Graham, and Linda Lavin.
All episodes of Mid-Century Modern are now streaming on Hulu. Alright, so it's time for, I don't think so, honey.
Okay, you're doing well. But I just know you're gonna pop the fuck off.
So this is our 60-second segment where we drag name cultural item here. I walked into this myself today.
It's my own fault, but I am going to. Okay.
Here we go. There's some self accountability.
This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many times.
I don't think so, honey. Wearing a graphic tee on the subway in New York.
Because here's the thing. People are going to read it and then they're going to engage with it.
And then you're trapped with them for what could be as much as a half hour. So today I have a shirt on that says, is it going to be a threesome? I'm challengers coded my whole life right now.
This is merch from focus features. Thank you again for drive away dolls and for drive away dolls.
Haven't seen it yet, but can't wait sister. I just know that I was on the subway today with a gentleman who could read the shirt and did out loud.
And so then he was engaging with it. It caused everyone to turn.

And I said,

you know what?

Maybe if I hadn't worn a shirt with words on it that could be read,

I wouldn't be having a conversation at all.

Least of all about threesomes.

And this person was not necessarily someone I wanted to engage with about

threesomes.

You know,

if you see me wearing this and you think we would vibe,

I don't know.

I will be wearing it the whole rest of today.

This episode comes out in like three weeks,

but I'll wear it again.

Five seconds.

Actually,

yes.

The day this episode is released,

I'm going to be walking the streets of New York wearing it.

Say hi,

but not if you're like a crazy person on the subway.

And that's one minute.

So that's why I don't think I'm going to be on today.

That was so good.

Thank you.

I'm going to suck at this.

No,

you're not.

I'm going to try my best.

You're going to be so good.

You're going to be so good.

We all know you talk super fast. Do I? I recorded media, you go so fast.
Let me tell you something. Like in a way, now I'm like, do I? No.
Is it in a way that it's like, oh, you mean in songs? I'm just saying, we know you can get on the mic and rip. You can hit, you can rip.
You know what I mean? In a way, is it like a problem? No. Okay.
Is it a problem? It means you're built for I don't think so honey. Okay, okay.
Yeah, everyone's thing about Charlie is they're like, yeah, she just talks too fast. Wait, I just wish it wasn't so fast.
I'm just kidding. No, I'm just saying like, I've heard the album and I know that you can keep up the tempo.
I understand. And Bowen Yang, speaking of tempo, are you ready to fucking do this? Yeah.
Okay.

So this is Bon Yang's I Don't Think So, honey,

as time starts now.

I Don't Think So, honey, pubic hair.

Why is it looking different down there than up here?

I look like Miss Frizzle, got a dye job.

I'm curly, curly, curly.

And I wish I could get a perm up here

and give myself a little swoop.

My pubic hair is so tightly coiled down there.

And when you see it on the bathroom floor,

you go, oh, no.

I'm so shocked.

And then when you don't have it, it's like, well, now you look like a fucking mole rat. Yeah.
A hundred percent. There's no in between.
Why can't we just stay there? And I'm sure as hell ain't laser removing it because it's like, because like I said, if it's gone, it looks even crazier than if it is a forest, if it is a jungle. And I have a really crazy situation.
I don't know why it's different down there.

Isn't body hair all supposed to be the same?

And that's one minute.

You are the only person I believe in history to say you wish what was down there,

you wish your pubic hair was on your head.

I just want it to go both ways.

If my hair on my head looked pubic,

I'd be like, well, at least it's consistent.

Right.

This is so shocking.

First of all, laser hair removal on your pubic area? Some people do it. Asshole, maybe.
Some people do it. The guys I've been hooking up with lately don't seem to care at all about maintaining it down there.
Or maybe they just think they don't care what I think. Yeah.
I think it has been so wild and free as a family. I think no matter your gender, it's like, there is not a great way to manage it, like, period.
Well, maybe it's also because I'm hooking up with, like, men that are my age in their 30s and not, like, this isn't like, when you're fresh in your 20s and everyone thinks, like, oh, I should, like, manscape or whatever, or, like, really keep it clean down there. It's like, give it a rest, girl.
Like, we're all just trying to live life. No one cares that you're a hairy one.
No one cares. But I bet your pubic hair is thrilling.
It's freshly shorn. Oh.
Why? You have plans later? No, I just, it was getting out of hand and I am in that liminal space now where I'm like, this sucks. Like, I just wish it would grow back.
No, I'm actually okay. I'm moisturizing.
Cool. Down there? Conditioning.
Conditioning. Oh yeah, I guess so.
I should try my purple shampoo for my blonde. Yeah.
Get blonde pubes. Get blonde pubes.
I don't want to know. Okay, anyway.
I am nervous. Don't be.
I'm nervous. I'm nervous.
Okay, great. Don't be nervous.
My heart just skipped a beat. No, you're going to be absolutely slain.
Think of something you were like. I got it.
You got it. Just speak the truth.
This is Charlie X. The exes.
I don't think so. When her think so when her time starts now okay I don't think so honey I'm actually coming for a group of people these people who have this stuck up eye rolly attitude towards reality TV you know what I mean taking it back to the beginning of our conversation what is not to love I feel like there such a high, low conundrum to reality TV that just makes me want to sink my teeth in, whether it be our favorite Housewives of Salt Lake City, Potomac, also heard it's pretty good.
Miami also heard it's pretty good. But also what about some other amazing shows? Below Deck, Below Deck Down Under,

Below Deck Sailing Yacht,

Below Deck Mediterranean,

Love Island, Australia, British,

heard the US wasn't that good.

But anyway, I just think that there is such a psychology, such a wonderful,

amazing world to delve into on reality TV.

It's like The Factory.

It's absolutely fabulous.

Just keep it coming and don't judge it.

And that's why I made it. That was amazing.
I don't think so, honey, the world there. Reality TV is not trash.
It's not trash. It's not trash.
It's art. It's art.
I just sweat during that. Oh my God.
I was like sweating. And look, but that's like a good sign.
Like we had- Promo for the tour. Promo for the tour.
Promo for the tour. I was just like, oh my God.
Way to clear Voight comevoyant Come in recently And he When he sweats He means it's the spirit It's like Energy is moving through him That's what's happened Amazing Yeah You should watch Couples Therapy Oh It's so good With um Ornika Ralnik Ornika Ralnik Fabulous Have you had her on? No We should She is the sexiest She's so sexy Don't you just want to be her? I love her. And what just happened here? I love her.
Just the tiny little... What? And what was that? I love her.
She's like, talk about this. She's amazing.
I'm so glad you watched her. I love her.
I think her fashion is incredible. It just seems she's chic.
She is. I bet her apartment's really cool.
Yeah. Have you gotten to the lockdown stuff yet? Where they bring the cameras Into her apartment because she's doing all of it through telehealth And so you see her apartment And it's kind of messy in a very charming way She's got all her kids running around How many kids does she have? Two? I think she's so fat What I love is when she speaks to her therapist Who's a real icon Virginia That woman is- Virginia.
Virginia. She's very like brand coded.
She's a real superstar. But you should finish it all the way through.
There's like, I mean, whatever, we don't have to talk about it. There's an Israeli-Palestinian queer couple that's amazing.
And then Orna's like, when she finds out that one of them is Palestinian, she goes, you know, I'm from Israel, right? And they're like, Ornana like, blessed, like, is like on socials being like, this is crazy. Anyway, but you should watch it all the way through.
You would fucking love it. I can't wait.
I can't wait. She's a star.
She's a star. But that's between like, that's not quite reality.
It's not quite documentary, right? It's like, they know they're being filmed, but they can't see the cameras. I think they've done that show.
By the way, I have no idea how long we have left, but I'm like, wow, we could do a whole episode on this. I feel like they've shot that show by the way i have no idea how long we have left but i'm like no please go we could do a whole episode on this i feel like they've shot that show in a really tasteful way yes and i hope it never changes you know what you want to know what it is it's like you can tell that well obviously it's all here and that's like part of it but it's still really elevated the way they shoot it and i just what i love is that they seem to catch micro emotions.
Like it's really like intentionally edited. And I believe it's like really smartly done through her lens because we're making a joke about like, what was that? Yeah.
But we saw it too. Yeah.
You know what I mean? And also it has to be so crazy like to be in those sessions and then watch it after because it's also an edited version of that session. It goes up for hours.
That would also maybe give you a little bit of a complex. Like why am I being edited this way and not that way? Like I can't understand saying yes to that but I'm so thrilled that people do.
Me too. Do you have a favorite couple or a most fascinating couple? I really liked the young queer couple.
Like they were really young and they had been in a relationship for like three years sort of formatively. And one of them wanted to be in an open relationship and the other did not or was adjusting to that.
And I think ultimately what they had to really figure out and admit to each other was that they were not right for each other. And watching that play out was heartbreaking.
And I just hope that they could still figure it out to be in each other's lives. Because that's, I think, the hardest thing about when a relationship ends is it's like, I don't want to lose you as the person.
You know, like that. And I thought that was just like a beautiful illustration and like, you know, examination of that kind of thing.
Like, I love you more than anything. This is not right.
Yeah. Do you have a favorite?

Yeah, mine is that.

Also season one,

it was the kind of like very sort of set in his ways,

quite sexy.

Oh, I know who you're talking about.

Man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the woman who was sort of willing to try anything for him.

Right.

And he was just,

he would like get up during the session and walk around. Can't stand it.
And he was just like being like very controlling. But his story is interesting.
His story was wild. So wild.
Like that woman like fucked him when he was like 14. And like tied him to a bed.
Yes. But also the way it came out, again, could be the edit.
We don't know. It was just sort of like they'd done like four or five sessions.
Yeah. Nothing was really like going anywhere.
And then one day he's just like, well, you know, there was that time where I got tied to a bed when I was 14. And like Oana's like, what? Yeah, let's like really examine this for a sec.
Yeah, it's just like he just like throws it in out of nowhere. But that's real though.
That's real therapy shit. Like there's no like easing into it.
Sometimes it just kind of, you drop the bombs. Well, you get the sense that he either was just as stubborn and controlling with like releasing that information as he is in the immediate thing.
Or I think some guys that are like that just don't understand that it has affected them in that way. I mean, who knows? But I was under the impression that maybe he just like wasn't there yeah yeah but then the thing that was really interesting about them was then orna would go and speak to her therapist about how she was getting very triggered specifically by him and that was like at this extra dynamic that was really interesting and she was kind of talking about how she needed to make sure she was providing like fair and equal counsel, but she was like so annoyed by him.
Yeah, that is interesting. Because he's one of, I think there's multiple like people like this.
Like he's one of the people who says to her, I could do your job. Yeah.
Yeah, I couldn't believe that. That was crazy.
Can you imagine the gall? Do you have a favorite couple? I like, there's a couple in season two. That's really great.
It's two men. One of them is a ballet dancer.
One of them- Oh, they were great. They were great.
And then one of them had a really harrowing journey with sobriety. And then the pandemic happened.
And the pandemic happened. And then there's this one couple, there's a problem couple in season three.
And she talks to Virginia and she talks to a peer group of other therapists. And all of them help her crack this one couple because there's a problem couple in season three and she, Orna talks to Virginia and she talks to a peer group of other therapists.
And all of them like help her crack this one couple because she hits a wall and she's like, I don't know what to put it on. Because the guy was stonewalling everything.
There's such a sensational clip of her. They play at the beginning of the season where she's just like, they're screaming and she goes, I'm going to stop you guys right now.
I'm not the right therapist for you. And then you're like, oh! How does it get there does it get there? How does it get there? You watch it.
You watch it. There was also that great, there was a great couple that was, she was a dancer in The Lion King.
Yes. And she was like, she was always busy at night.
And so she could never have dinner with the family and her kids. And like, it was like a thing.
He's like, well, you're never home for dinner. It's like, I'm in The Lion King.
And you knew this when you married me. Because she's been in the Lion King for like 40 years.

It's never ending.

She hasn't been in the Lion King for as long as

the earth has been spinning.

That's the best show.

I know.

Are you a therapy icon?

Am I who? Are you a therapy icon?

Yeah.

I meant the Lion King being what a job.

But also that is

both.

Honestly, I can't believe I was never not in it.

I can't believe I was ever.

That's still tense, babe.

No, I can't believe I was ever not in it

because I love it so much.

In therapy.

Oh, again.

I think you meant the show.

Lion King.

I was like, well, Lion King.

I don't think there's many roles for me

in the Lion King on Broadway,

but I would love to help out.

I'll do ushering.

Play giraffe. But no, therapy's great.
Therapy's great. Speaking of great.
Speaking of great, the album is fucking sublime. Yeah, good for you.
Fucking crushed. And I'm glad you responded.
It seemed like you responded positively when I made a comparison to XCX World. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally, I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, you're right. Of course.
No, you're right. And I think, yeah, you nailed it.
You nailed it. It's so fucking good.
We love you, Charlie. I love you both.
Thank you for everything you've done. Thank you for having me.
Of course. This was pretty fun.
Let's end every episode with a song. I'm breaking every rule for you.
That's one of my favorites too. Wait, why do I love all your battles? You know what I love?

Official.

Official.

It's a fan favorite.

Official reminds me of Jared.

It's when we first- Is that a boyfriend?

So he was my boyfriend.

Now he's my best friend.

We figured it out in a way that I hope that couples therapy couple did.

Yeah.

But Official was like,

I was like,

whoa,

like the little things are happening that make me feel like I can go the distance.

That's so nice.

Rewriting. These are the things make me feel like I can go the distance.
That's so nice. Great writing.

These are the things that can make us official.

Bye.

Bye.

Yay.

Lost Culture East is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeartRadio podcast.

Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Executive produced by Anna Hosnier and Hans Sani.

Produced by Becca Ramos.

Edited and mixed by Doug Bame and Monique Laborde. And our music is by Henry Kvorsky.
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