Jimmy Kimmel's Suspension Was Always About Censorship (Just Ask Trump) | Jacinda Ardern

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Speaker 1 You're listening to Comedy Central.

Speaker 1 From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news.

Speaker 1 This is the Daily Show with your host, John Stewart.

Speaker 1 My name is Don Stewart. We've got a fabulous show for you tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us. I will be joined later by the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Arnon.

Speaker 1 Find out why she forced their ABC affiliate to pull Flight of the Concords. She did that.

Speaker 1 Folks, news is flying fast and furious. As you know, the administration teased a big announcement on the cause of autism today.

Speaker 1 Oh, ye of little faith.

Speaker 1 So let's get right to it.

Speaker 1 This is obviously a very serious moment for the world and the United States of America to the White House. What is the cause of autism? The use of

Speaker 1 acid.

Speaker 1 Well, let's see how we say that.

Speaker 1 Acida

Speaker 1 minophen.

Speaker 1 Acetaminophen.

Speaker 1 Is that okay?

Speaker 1 No!

Speaker 1 No, it is not okay!

Speaker 1 We would like a second opinion and a third pronunciation.

Speaker 1 Look, there's already a ton of controversy around the lack of data tying acetaminophen in pregnancy to autism. And you can't even be bothered to pronounce the f ⁇ ing word correctly

Speaker 1 until maybe you get to the one word you recognize from your medicine cabinet?

Speaker 1 Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm sure now they're known as plaintiff A.

Speaker 1 Aceta, Aceta,

Speaker 1 Aceta Maniph. That's when you know, when he looks up,

Speaker 1 that's his tell that he recognizes the word. Ceda,

Speaker 1 Tylenol.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, in other ABC news, young Jimmy Kimmel's coming back to television.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you, Jimmy Kimmel's flying high like Advil today.

Speaker 1 See the midfields, boom, Advil's like, what's up, motherfucker?

Speaker 1 You got a headache? Where are you going to turn?

Speaker 1 No, Kimmel's coming back. That campaign, and I, you know what, I'm joking around.
I want to say this seriously. That campaign that you all launched pretending that you were going to cancel Hulu

Speaker 1 while secretly racing through four seasons of only murders in the building.

Speaker 1 I really were. Congratulations.

Speaker 1 Wasn't it interesting to try and figure out all the tentacles Disney has in your daily life?

Speaker 1 It's one thing to swear off cruises, but the Avengers? Nah.

Speaker 1 How is it possible that by getting rid of one company, I can't watch Winnie the Pooh or Monday Night Football

Speaker 1 or listen to early Hillary Duff?

Speaker 1 So yesterday.

Speaker 1 I would sing more of it. Obviously, Disney is very litigious.

Speaker 1 It was rather shocking that this turnaround occurred because I was told that the original decision to get rid of Jimmy had nothing to do with the Trump administration and their explicit FCC threat that they could remove the show the easy way or the hard way.

Speaker 4 My gosh, this has nothing to do with Donald Trump not agreeing with anything Jimmy Kimmel said or not.

Speaker 1 I mean, gee Willikers.

Speaker 1 All my days.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know why people would think that. We just randomly remove one show a week.

Speaker 4 If Donald Trump wanted to take everyone off the air who had criticisms for him, there would basically only be a handful of individuals left on television.

Speaker 1 That is funny.

Speaker 1 But it's also maybe a cause for self-reflection.

Speaker 1 Hey, if everyone on TV is criticizing me, except for like four people,

Speaker 1 and one of them is my daughter-in-law,

Speaker 1 am I the drama?

Speaker 1 Don't take my word for it. Ask Trump.
I'm a very strong person for free speech.

Speaker 1 Almost inevitably, a statement like that will be followed up by a, but,

Speaker 1 however,

Speaker 1 although, that being said, but if you really, it's like one of those phrases like, I don't see color.

Speaker 1 But.

Speaker 1 So Trump's saying he's strong for free speech. Well, let's see that big but of yours.

Speaker 1 At the same time, when you have networks that where I won an election, like in counties, I guess it's 2,600 to 525. It's called landslides to.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you're aware of this.

Speaker 1 We don't quantify elections by county.

Speaker 1 We never have. We don't judge the election by how many counties one person wins and one person loses.

Speaker 1 Presidents don't ever say, well, I lost the popular vote in the Electoral College, but I won the land mass. That's not how these go.

Speaker 1 So Trump is up 2,600 counties to 525. And I guess if you were to divide that by the negativity directed at him, but 97, 94, 95, 96% of the people

Speaker 1 are

Speaker 1 against me in the sense of the

Speaker 1 newscasts are against me. The stories are 90% they said 97% bad.
So they gave me 97%. They'll take a great story and they'll make it bad.

Speaker 1 You see what we have here people?

Speaker 1 2,600 counties, minus 525 counties divided by negative 97.

Speaker 1 I think you see what this all adds up to. See, I think that's really illegal, personally.
Boom!

Speaker 1 Let me explain something. Free speech has always been a ratio.
If the county vote were more equal, you could take a good story and make it bad without being jailed.

Speaker 1 But as our founders stated in the Constitution, When the delta between the sigma of counties divided by factorials of negativity are greater than pie,

Speaker 1 your inalienable rights turn into more of an expired groupon. I'm sorry, this is how it goes.

Speaker 1 I didn't make the rules. Blame the founders.
Now, free speech.

Speaker 1 Free speech isn't the only tentpost of a free society facing redefinition. There's also this.
We're bringing back law and order to our country.

Speaker 1 Oh, we're not talking about the show? Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 Because I'm not sure that's ever left us.

Speaker 1 He's talking about law and order as a foundational principle of civilized society. So how does Donald Trump propose bringing law and order back?

Speaker 5 President Trump is publicly putting pressure on the Department of Justice and Attorney General Pam Bondi. In a post on True Social, the president said, what about Comey, Adam Shifty Schiff, Letitia?

Speaker 5 They're all guilty as hell, but nothing is going to be done. Adding, justice must be served.

Speaker 1 You post that

Speaker 1 publicly? So, far be it from me to tell you how to run your post-judicial law fair.

Speaker 1 But do we all have to be copied on this shit?

Speaker 1 We know, we know you and Bondi talk in private.

Speaker 1 Epstein, oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 I have Epstein's file. Cold.

Speaker 1 Now, most people would think a president ordering his independent Department of Justice to go after his political opponents is weaponizing the Department of Justice.

Speaker 1 That's why most people don't work in this administration.

Speaker 4 And it is not weaponizing the Department of Justice to demand accountability for those who weaponized the Department of Justice.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 this is law fair, but this law fair is only fair because of how he fared under I've run out of road for the metaphor, but I think you understand.

Speaker 1 But look, man, if Letitia James committed a crime, she should be held accountable. But what if she hadn't committed a crime?

Speaker 4 Trump forced out top federal prosecutor Eric Siebert after his office failed to find incriminating evidence against New York Attorney General Letitia James.

Speaker 1 He fired him for not finding evidence. Trump is going full devil's wares Prada on this one.
I want an indictment for Letitia James on my desk and you're fired.

Speaker 1 But Mr. Trump, it's three in the morning and she didn't do anything you woke pussy

Speaker 1 there's a thousand girls who would take your place in a second

Speaker 1 and that sweater is pedestrian

Speaker 1 as my

Speaker 1 I've never seen the movie so

Speaker 1 if you've seen the movie you probably go I don't think that's the movie

Speaker 1 By the way, this Siebert fella was appointed by Trump earlier this year. Look, at this point, it's so blatantly an abuse of power, and yet his defenders continue to reframe this as refreshing.

Speaker 4 He's asking his attorney general in a public way to go after his political enemies. Very open about it.
You're okay with that?

Speaker 6 Well, I think what we know is President Trump is very open and transparent with the American people, and he speaks his mind.

Speaker 6 And that's what his supporters love about him, and that's what America loves about him.

Speaker 1 No, that's what America loves about Dolly Parton.

Speaker 1 Transparent, speaks the mind.

Speaker 1 Yet Dolly rarely jails her political enemies.

Speaker 1 I mean Senator Mark Wayne, or Mark hyphen Wayne backslash Mullen.

Speaker 1 Do you want to know how embarrassing your weak knee rationalizations for jailing political opponents ring? I'm going to play you a clip of a fellow senator, a fellow Republican senator.

Speaker 1 By the way, that's majority opinion. Not just here.

Speaker 1 Now, Cruz has supported this president through insults to his own wife's looks and to his own father's loyalties.

Speaker 1 And yet Cruz still manages to maintain a modicum of self-respect when it comes to this president trampling all over our Constitution. Sir, it brings me no pleasure

Speaker 1 to have to play this. Look, I like Brendan Carr.

Speaker 7 He's a good guy. He's the chairman of the FCC.
I work closely with him. But what he said there is dangerous as hell.

Speaker 1 Fantastic.

Speaker 1 Fantastic.

Speaker 1 Senator Ted Cruz boldly stating that the FCC chairman threatening the licenses of networks is dangerous. And Senator Cruz, I would just say, maybe you should stop there.
I would stop there.

Speaker 1 I would not continue with the thought. Perfect.
No notes.

Speaker 1 All right, go on.

Speaker 8 And I gotta say,

Speaker 7 he threatens it. He says,

Speaker 7 we can do this the easy way, or we could do this the hard way.

Speaker 7 The f?

Speaker 7 What sort of a breath? The hard way?

Speaker 7 What kind of mobster have you ever heard?

Speaker 7 We could do it in the hard way.

Speaker 7 We could do it the easy way, the hard way.

Speaker 7 Easy, the hard.

Speaker 1 That's not the godfather, that's Lenny from Mice and Men.

Speaker 1 I, the bunny, the bunny can do it the easy the hard way.

Speaker 1 You got more, Senator, don't you?

Speaker 7 And I got to say, that's right out of Goodfellas.

Speaker 7 That's right out of a mafioso coming into a bar going, nice bar you have here.

Speaker 1 It'd be a shame if something happened to him.

Speaker 1 It's not a goodfellows quote.

Speaker 1 I know this because all of my decorative pillows have Goodfellas quotes on them.

Speaker 1 I mean, I would go home, I would say that's me at home. Look at me.

Speaker 1 Now, Senator,

Speaker 1 a lesser man might tell you to go home and get your fing Shinebox, but I don't. Because you wouldn't even know what that means.

Speaker 1 Ted Cruz, I mean, to do that with good fellas, but that accent, is there anything in pop culture that I love that you can't ruin?

Speaker 2 But Dad, I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat animals.

Speaker 1 But Lisa, animals are so delicious. There's the animal we get bacon from, the animal we get ham from, the animal we get sausage from.
Dad,

Speaker 2 that's all the same animal.

Speaker 1 Smithers, release the hounds.

Speaker 1 Excellent.

Speaker 1 They're not booing, they're saying boo urns.

Speaker 1 Imagine having to endure a Texas power outage with this guy.

Speaker 1 Who wants to hear my appoo? Anyone?

Speaker 1 Well, he ruined my love of the Simptons. At least I've still got my favorite franchise, Star Wars, all to myself, so I don't have to.
The force is strong with this one.

Speaker 1 At best, he sounds like Yoda with a sinus infection

Speaker 1 trying not to come.

Speaker 1 Good, Duke!

Speaker 1 You may enjoy Star Wars, said Chris, but there's one thing we'll never have in common, and that's my comfort movie, The Princess Bride, a fantastical tale of adventure and true love with an outstanding cast.

Speaker 1 And oh, you know what's coming!

Speaker 1 You know what's coming!

Speaker 1 With an outstanding cast, including the inimitable.

Speaker 1 Oh, f it, just roll it.

Speaker 8 So, what is it you have that's so worth living for?

Speaker 4 Presses on his chest, and

Speaker 1 Wesley goes, True love!

Speaker 1 Liar!

Speaker 8 Shut up, witch! I'm not a witch, I'm your wife, but after what you just said, I wish I wasn't. Don't say that name.
What? Humperdick? Humperding, Humperding, Hunkerdick? I can't hear you.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 Whoa, that was a straightforward. I'm like, oh, the one-man show.

Speaker 1 Do you know how hard it is to make Mario Lopez uncomfortable?

Speaker 1 Truly.

Speaker 1 Mario Lopez,

Speaker 1 the man who need I remind you, did this dance in a tank tee in front of everyone at the Macs.

Speaker 1 Look, I don't want to get sidetracked by Ted Cruz's Vegas residency. I just want to say this to Trump's defenders.

Speaker 1 You don't have to bend over backwards trying to make Trump's authoritarian power grabs seem like the rule of law. He does not give a f ⁇ anymore.
He's saying it straight up.

Speaker 1 Trump is saying, the people like dictators. Trump is saying, I hate my opponents and I want them punished.

Speaker 1 And Trump is saying, I'll use all the levers of government at my disposal to accomplish that goal. So you can get on board with that and say, I'm with that,

Speaker 1 or you can join the rest of us and fight like hell for this constitutional republic.

Speaker 1 Let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 Let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 Hold on.

Speaker 1 It is a form of representational government worth preserving and defending.

Speaker 1 And as the great Winston Churchill once said, we shall never surrender,

Speaker 1 mother.

Speaker 1 When we come back, we send to Arnold who'll be joining us on Google.

Speaker 9 Let's listen in on a live, unscripted second-grade Challenger School class. They're studying Charlotte's web.

Speaker 10 How would you describe Charlotte compared to Wilbur?

Speaker 11 I would describe Charlotte as self-reliant.

Speaker 12 I would rather have a self-reliant friend because then they would want to work for things that they get and they would want to earn it instead of just having it given to them.

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Speaker 9 Hey, welcome back to the daily show, my guest tonight. Very excited?

Speaker 9 She served as New Zealand's 40th Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 Her best-selling memoir is called A Different Kind of Power. Please welcome to the program, the right honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern.

Speaker 1 How are you? I'm well.

Speaker 1 Now, I want to be correct. Right Honorable Dame Jacinda.

Speaker 4 It's a lot. It's a lot.
Please, Jacinda. Just Jacinda.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 I am referred to as Admiral Stewart.

Speaker 1 I will have you know.

Speaker 1 How are you doing? You put out

Speaker 1 your autobiography where you talk a little bit about sort of how you grew up and the challenges that you faced as Prime Minister. Boy, you got hit with a lot of crises as you went there.

Speaker 1 You put out a children's book and you did a documentary.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, that one came a little bit later. My husband, he's a broadcaster.

Speaker 4 And so when I found myself, you know, seven weeks out from an election, suddenly running to be Prime Minister, he just picked up a camera and started recording.

Speaker 4 You know, we didn't have a set plan for it. Maybe it would just be a nice record for our daughter.
But then after I left office, it was turned into a documentary.

Speaker 1 It's really a remarkable one because

Speaker 1 it's remarkable because it's very unfiltered in a way that you don't often see with politicians.

Speaker 1 You were not,

Speaker 1 as might be micromanaged here from certain personalities in the edit room going, don't put that in. No, I don't want to snap.

Speaker 4 And I think that's obvious. It's raw.
It's obvious by the footage. You're like, why would she have allowed that clip at that angle?

Speaker 1 More importantly, why would she have allowed her husband? to film it.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, one thing I will say, so

Speaker 4 I've only seen the final version of it once all the way through, and that was at Sundance Film Festival. So it was a very shared experience with the rest of the audience

Speaker 4 and you know the bits that are in there, it's fair to say, don't include the number of times I told him to leave me alone and stop filming. But yeah, I really.

Speaker 1 I believe that you said leave me alone.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that was the polite version.

Speaker 1 Yes, that was exactly.

Speaker 4 But you know,

Speaker 4 I'm so glad he persisted because,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 there's a story, I hope, that's told, which isn't just about, you know, what's it like to lead through a domestic terror attack and through a pandemic and have a baby.

Speaker 4 And I hope that within a very short period of time.

Speaker 4 90 minutes, as it happens.

Speaker 4 And I hope that story is that there's still humans doing these jobs and we'll make mistakes and sometimes we'll get things right and sometimes we'll get things wrong.

Speaker 4 But we need more leaders who are willing to be humans while they're in the job.

Speaker 4 Very interesting.

Speaker 1 What would that look like?

Speaker 1 It was, you know,

Speaker 1 your background, you know, you have this childhood. Your father works in law enforcement.
You go into these small farming communities in New Zealand or you go around.

Speaker 1 And the stories are really charming, but it's very clear it informs the humanity of your politics. And it's what gets you involved.
And it's what gets your party,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 to really tie with the Conservative Party and then break the tie so that you end up being being Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 But you don't necessarily get a chance to govern that way because you're hit immediately with these terrible crises.

Speaker 4 We were hit with a lot, but you know, at the same time,

Speaker 4 you know, I'd like to think that we still made progress on the things that really mattered to us. We still did a lot on child poverty.
We still put in really important climate change law.

Speaker 4 I remember during COVID, you know, we were really worried about the number of women that were losing work because particularly you saw insecure jobs which were dominated by women that were really, really struggling.

Speaker 4 And so we put a food and schools program in, knowing that part-time work would likely support women into the workforce.

Speaker 4 And so you tried to cover off one crisis with another long-term thing that you really wanted to do while in office. So we try to do both, but there's no doubt it's hard.

Speaker 4 When you're managing a pandemic, when you're managing

Speaker 4 terror attacks, doing everything else,

Speaker 4 it is hard.

Speaker 1 It was also interesting within it it to see the highs. You know, after Christchurch, your leadership, I think, was lauded, not just probably in New Zealand, but around the world

Speaker 1 for the way that you handled it, the empathy that you displayed, going to the funeral, wearing a scarf.

Speaker 1 10 days later, coming up with legislation that's going to ban these types of terrible weapons, which I don't know if you follow in this country, we've done the same.

Speaker 1 We are, I think the word is agile

Speaker 1 when it comes to these types of things.

Speaker 1 But to see, really, your approvals and you're riding high on that, and even early on in COVID, and then to see that turn was really jarring.

Speaker 1 And as an individual, having experienced that sense of the headiness, of the popularity and then suddenly faced with you know a woman right in your face going, you know, you, how does it feel to kill people during COVID or murder?

Speaker 4 I think when you're in politics, the idea that you ever allow this headiness or this idea that you're riding high, I never felt that, you know, because I've been around politics for so long.

Speaker 4 I always held on to the idea what goes up must come down. You know, and ultimately, whatever political capital that you might have, you're going to need to spend it.

Speaker 4 And, you know, the best we can hope for is that politicians spend it on doing the right thing, even if it's something that's hard, even if it's something that you know might not be popular.

Speaker 4 Just doing the right thing.

Speaker 1 I see where we've made a mistake.

Speaker 1 The right thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we haven't tried that one yet.

Speaker 1 Did you in 2019, you know,

Speaker 1 did you deal with Trump in the first administration? Had you had much? I did. And did he ever say, like, I think I'm going to invade your country? Did he ever...

Speaker 1 What was it like to deal with him? So many leaders we've seen find a way to try and flatter him personally while doing whatever it is they want to do otherwise.

Speaker 4 I remember a lot of our, I mean, one of the interactions I talk a little bit about in the book and it was a phone call after our domestic terror attack

Speaker 4 where a white supremacist took the lives of 51 members of our Muslim community.

Speaker 1 And broadcasted on social media and it was

Speaker 4 we had it. This is one of the things that happens in

Speaker 4 leadership. You do contact one another and you pass on your country's condolences and you offer support and assistance.
So we had a phone phone call like that. That was my second interaction.

Speaker 4 And at that time, I thought,

Speaker 4 what can I ask of a country like the United States in that moment? And I remember the only thing I asked for was love and support for Muslim communities, because that was what was needed.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 4 You don't ask, you don't get, I guess.

Speaker 1 Even when you ask.

Speaker 4 But I mean, at that time, you know,

Speaker 4 I still find find it deeply sad that it, you know, warrants comment, the idea that,

Speaker 4 you know, mourning with a community who have lost so many of its members should be something that, you know, warrants conversation.

Speaker 1 But it does now. But that's.
And by the way, on the flip side, you just see, we've just had another terrible assassination, along with other mass shootings along that time.

Speaker 1 And social media, you see in these tribal communities, in these silos, the worst of humanity. It is, it reflects and magnifies people's worst instincts.

Speaker 1 It's as though they think shit posting is legally mandatory, like that they have to jump in, that someone must know their worst inner thought in a moment, even if it's going to cause terrible pain to other communities.

Speaker 1 I imagine you had to deal with

Speaker 1 social media companies and all that because of what happened on Christchurch was

Speaker 4 public. It was live streamed.
It was live streamed.

Speaker 4 If you can imagine an attack as horrific as that, targeting Friday prayers to maximise the number of victims, and it was live streamed for 17 minutes.

Speaker 1 And what was the attitude trying to contain that and get it pulled down? And was there a sense of them saying, yeah, we have a responsibility?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's one thing.

Speaker 4 This is one thing, actually, that you can get agreement on.

Speaker 4 Everyone agrees. that violent extremism and terrorism in the online environment is a bad thing.
You can actually get some agreement.

Speaker 4 What's difficult is to get those who carry some responsibility to do something about it. And so...

Speaker 4 Interesting.

Speaker 4 You know, that video was uploaded 1.5 million times onto Facebook. Once every second for the first 24 hours, it was uploaded onto YouTube.
It was prolific. It was everywhere.

Speaker 4 So some things have changed as a result. Some things have changed because of some of the work we did, but the pathways to radicalization have got worse.

Speaker 4 And we can't sit by and do nothing and expect it will improve. We have to start taking responsibility for each of our own areas to change what is that radicalization that is happening.

Speaker 1 You guys did do that. I mean,

Speaker 1 not necessarily to look, it's very difficult to design a society to out-strategize crazy. Like, that's going to exist.
But you can do things maybe.

Speaker 4 I'm pleased you're not putting that all on New Zealand. I mean, we can do a lot.

Speaker 4 We can do a lot.

Speaker 1 I was hoping you'd pick up on that.

Speaker 1 It's your fault for burying the ring there. The ring

Speaker 1 is what's causing a lot of this. I find it often.

Speaker 4 It often comes back to that.

Speaker 1 By the way, I want to point out, so I went to say hello before the show, and it was lovely. And you have an enormous in-her dressing room, an enormous, I guess, posse, you'd call it.
You roll.

Speaker 1 You have two of them. No.

Speaker 1 Let's be cut. You roll like Snoop.

Speaker 1 But she had laid out a lovely display of New Zealand chocolates

Speaker 1 on a plate.

Speaker 1 What is the name of the chocolate? I think you're a fan of the pork. Oh, for God's sakes.

Speaker 4 Whitaker's hokey pokey.

Speaker 1 So I walked in, and she has a full display of Whitaker's hokey pokey.

Speaker 4 I could have put the whole block, it would have melted in my trousers, but I did bring.

Speaker 1 And it was, and I have to say, delicious, but I didn't know if that, if I was supposed to say, like, wow, New Zealand. Nice.

Speaker 4 Could you just say that directly down

Speaker 1 New Zealand?

Speaker 1 Great chocolate.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 1 I am curious because I think we view New Zealand as kind of a refuge. And

Speaker 1 when you view what's happening in the United States, does it seem surreal?

Speaker 1 shocking, expected?

Speaker 1 What's your vision on kind of how our politics

Speaker 1 is the direction direction it's moving in.

Speaker 4 I don't think you're alone. You know, I don't think you're alone.
There's a globalization of political culture, and I think different nations are feeling it to different degrees.

Speaker 4 But there's a global survey done by Edelman. It's a trust barometer.
And what they've seen across countries is an increase in the grievance people feel.

Speaker 4 They feel that political institutions are not only not making their lives better, they're making them harder. 61%

Speaker 4 of people feel that way.

Speaker 1 This is worldwide.

Speaker 4 This is worldwide.

Speaker 4 This is a global survey. And then, as a consequence, four out of ten think hostile action is justified because of it.

Speaker 1 Hostile action.

Speaker 4 Hostile action.

Speaker 4 Spreading disinformation or

Speaker 4 violent online engagement or

Speaker 4 even vandalizing public property.

Speaker 4 In order to solve this second, because political violence is never okay and disinformation solves nothing, in order to solve that we also have to think about what's causing people's grievance in the first place.

Speaker 4 And that's where as political leaders we have to take responsibility. The easiest trick is to weaponize fear and blame.

Speaker 4 But that is what leaves us.

Speaker 1 Well, that's the way it's,

Speaker 1 to quote Yoda.

Speaker 1 I believe that may lead to the dark side.

Speaker 4 Well, in my view, I mean, does it leave our societies and our communities better or worse off? I think the answer is obvious.

Speaker 1 But do you wonder sometimes, is that even the goal anymore? Because I wonder as I watch the political system and I think, are they cynically using

Speaker 1 fear and weaponizing it? Is power really the principle that they're pursuing? Because that...

Speaker 1 You could make the case that it's divorced from outcome, that it's really just a tool to allow them to consolidate power.

Speaker 4 Well, then I guess it depends what you think the definition of power is. What is power? In my mind it's responsibility.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's not their definition.

Speaker 1 Let me go back to.

Speaker 1 I've gotten my notes here. Do the right thing.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 But that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 In your experience, is it, we live in a complex ecosystem. Is it some combination of sort of these

Speaker 1 the more online that we might live, the isolation people felt from COVID, the pandemic's

Speaker 1 residual effects kind of knocking us a bit off of our center,

Speaker 1 and that this is a cycle that we find ourselves in that's going to be difficult to unwind?

Speaker 4 I think so. Right.
I think so.

Speaker 1 And I think. What are some of the things that you would look at to help

Speaker 1 unwind?

Speaker 4 Well, in my mind the part of the prescription is the type of leadership we have.

Speaker 4 You know in these times when people do have a sense of uncertainty and fear comes out of a sense of uncertainty when they have financial insecurity and that is also a feature I think we see globally.

Speaker 4 When you have those things, leadership matters. And the US has been in times that I imagine would have felt as difficult as this before.

Speaker 4 The aftermath of a war, a pandemic in 1918, and then the Great Depression.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 4 World War II. And your leader was FDR, a great empathetic leader who didn't use fear and blame, but instead

Speaker 1 he didn't turn the Japanese.

Speaker 1 I guess the point is like, we do it.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, I just...

Speaker 4 I don't know where you go after that.

Speaker 1 The point is,

Speaker 1 we have sometimes a nostalgia for history that doesn't allow us to judge ourselves properly.

Speaker 1 And it's why it's so difficult that right now when we look and we say like, gosh, we tell such a bad story about slavery, we should really lighten that up. You know, countries

Speaker 1 that can face their own dark histories have an opportunity to

Speaker 1 make those reforms.

Speaker 4 And acknowledging your history. And acknowledging your history, and of course, New Zealand

Speaker 4 has a lot to acknowledge. Acknowledging your history is not an unpatriotic act.
It's a way of saying, I love my country and I know it can be better.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 the point

Speaker 4 I was trying to make before you brutally derailed it

Speaker 4 was that empathetic and right in these times. Yes.
My view the answer is empathetic leadership. It takes courage to be empathetic in these times.

Speaker 4 It is a courageous act to be optimistic in these times. But we need more of it, not less.

Speaker 1 Have you Is there a leader out there that you see on the world stage and you think, boy, that's something, that's the seed of something really interesting, really beautiful, really coming together?

Speaker 4 Well, two things. I think the President of Mexico is governing through really difficult times, but doing so with dignity, integrity.

Speaker 4 I think that it's really interesting that on two recent election nights, Prime Ministers who won office used their election night victory speeches to talk about kindness.

Speaker 4 And that was Mark Carney in Canada and and Anthony Albanese in Australia.

Speaker 4 Why aren't we talking about that? Why aren't we talking about those examples where leaders are saying these are values that matter?

Speaker 4 So let's talk about those that are being a little more optimistic in these dark times rather than some others.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Well

Speaker 1 it's fantastic.

Speaker 1 You're going to be teaching that now, am I correct? You are teaching empathetic leadership.

Speaker 4 Yes, I've built something called the Field Fellowship. It's supporting politicians still out there doing the hard graft, leading with compassion.

Speaker 4 So I have a program to support their work they're doing and try and spotlight some of their work.

Speaker 1 It's fantastic. Is there any consideration you're still very, very young? To be eligible to be President of the United States, you have to be,

Speaker 1 from what I understand, 90.

Speaker 1 Is there any chance you re-enter a political arena at some point or is that a part of your life that you'd like to move past that?

Speaker 4 I'm very happy as just solely an ambassador for New Zealand's chocolate.

Speaker 1 It's very good with chocolate.

Speaker 1 The HBO documentary from Prime Minister, the debut's September 30th. Children's book, Mom's Busy Works, is available now.
Dave Jacinda Arthur could break over a bike.

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Speaker 1 And before we go, we're going to take in with your host for the rest of the week, Mr. Jordan Clapper.
Jordan!

Speaker 1 Jordan!

Speaker 1 What are you going to be covering for us this week?

Speaker 2 Oh, well, it's UN week in New York, John. My favorite time of year because there's nothing like seeing the world's most powerful leaders out and about in New York City.

Speaker 2 I mean, just today, I saw a Javier Millay at the Eminem store.

Speaker 2 Emmanuel Macron cut me off on a city bike and the Prime Minister of Greece told me to get the f out of his bodega.

Speaker 1 Jordan, I'm just curious, are you sure that those were the world leaders that you saw? Or were those just regular New Yorkers?

Speaker 2 I did a model UN back in high school. I think I know the players.

Speaker 2 Anyway, I got a bounce. I'm going with Gaddafi to see Mamma Mia tonight.

Speaker 1 He lives in my building. Can you believe it? No, I can't.
Sounds fun, Jordan. Have a good time.
Here it is. Your moment is in.

Speaker 8 You know, JFK said, Some men see things as they are

Speaker 13 and ask why.

Speaker 8 I see things that never were

Speaker 13 and ask why not.

Speaker 13 Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 13 Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus.

Speaker 1 This has been a Comedy Central podcast.

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