E877 Ask Nick - Married To The Mortgage

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Speaker 2 Before we get to the next caller, we just want to give a quick trigger warning.

Speaker 2 The next call deals with the topic of sexual assault and sexual violence, which is obviously a very sensitive issue to many. So, we want to make you guys aware before moving on to the next call.

Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Tiffany. I am 30 years old, and I think my cousin is a villain.
Should I cut her off?

Speaker 2 Why do you think her cousin's a villain?

Speaker 3 So, there's a kind of a a long backstory. Just cut me off if you think it's going too long, but basically, it's actually my cousin's wife.
Um, my cousin and I grew up very close, like brother-sister.

Speaker 3 Um, when him and his now wife were engaged, um, I spent the weekend at their house, and the last night we were all drinking.

Speaker 3 Um, he had some co-workers over, and one of his co-workers ended up sexually assaulting me. And um, it was very traumatic, everyone knew what happened.
I was crying to his now wife.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 2 well, I'm very sorry that happened.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 When I left there the next day,

Speaker 3 I kind of heard nothing from either one of them. No check-in, nothing.
Two weeks went by and I was just kind of having a lot of anxiety. I know their wedding invites were going to go out.

Speaker 3 pretty soon. And I just kind of wanted to know where they stood on if this person was still going to be invited to the wedding.

Speaker 3 So I reached out to her and kind of like retold the story that we both lived. And

Speaker 3 she was really nice in the phone call and said, like, of course he won't be invited. She didn't really give a reason of why she hadn't reached out.

Speaker 3 And then she kind of abruptly cut me off and said she had to go and, but she would definitely reach out in the future and like check in on me, whatever, but kind of confirmed that she had deleted him from the guest list.

Speaker 2 This was just a co-worker or close friend? Like how? Yeah.

Speaker 3 No, not even close at all. Like this actually was the first time I had ever met this person.

Speaker 3 And so I actually didn't know if he was even going to be invited to the wedding regardless.

Speaker 2 Did you, and again, at your comfort level,

Speaker 2 after it happened, you told people, did you... Did you consider reaching out to authorities or anything like that? Or like, what was,

Speaker 2 what was your thought process going in?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it crossed my mind. Something like that had never happened to me.
It was fully a

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 we were in a closed bedroom.

Speaker 3 So it would have been his word against mine. There was a lot of alcohol involved.
And I left the room like hysterically crying. There was no guessing what happened.

Speaker 3 And everyone kind of was just like, oh, we're really drunk,

Speaker 3 you know, like whatever.

Speaker 3 and in fact even that guy um refused to leave the house it was very odd um so he was like well i'll just i'm too drunk to drive um i'm just gonna sleep on the couch and so i was just like the whole situation is extremely uncomfortable um very traumatic i'm so sorry that's

Speaker 2 and so

Speaker 2 I'm just kind of, I'm blown away by these people's reaction. Like it

Speaker 2 reminds, I guess, everyone.

Speaker 3 Oh, it gets worse. She She doesn't reach out besides the one phone call that I initiated.
We never talk about it again. Four months go by.
She's a bit of a bridezilla.

Speaker 3 And the whole time I'm biting my tongue. So the weekend of the wedding comes, and their wedding transportation was running late.
I had a speaking part in the wedding.

Speaker 3 So I was worried about getting there on time. So a couple offered to drive my then-boyfriend and I

Speaker 3 to the wedding. And so we get in the car, the couple's in the car, and they're like, oh, we offered to drive one other person.
He's just going to hop in the trunk.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, okay. And in hops this guy.

Speaker 3 And I

Speaker 3 thought I was going to have a panic attack, but I just kind of like sat there and I was like, you know, I can do hard things. I'm in therapy.
I've worked through a lot of this.

Speaker 3 But at this point, it's only been about four months

Speaker 3 since the assault.

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 3 my boyfriend and him start like chumming it up because my boyfriend knew what happened, but didn't obviously know that this was that guy. And they're like shooting the shit about football.

Speaker 3 And I'm just like sitting there trying to not have a panic attack.

Speaker 2 But your boyfriend didn't know this was him, to be clear.

Speaker 3 No, to be very clear, he did not know.

Speaker 2 Did you get around to telling him?

Speaker 3 I did.

Speaker 3 And a lot of people had asked, have asked me now, like, did he not notice your energy shift? And I was like, well, I was nervous about having to speak in front of 300 people.

Speaker 3 So, like, I was already didn't have great energy. Um, so, anyway, so it was like a 10-minute car ride.
I jump out of the car, and you know, my boyfriend follows after me.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, That's him, that's the guy.

Speaker 3 And my boyfriend wanted to just leave. He was like, Let's leave the wedding, like, you don't need to be here.
This is crazy,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 I didn't.

Speaker 3 And I was like, No, I don't want to make a scene.

Speaker 3 You know, whatever. So we go to the wedding.
I walk up into church in front of 300 people and talk about love is patient, love is kind.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 then decide that I'm not going to let this person ruin my night. So I have a great night.
I don't pay any attention. He's like in my periphery.
We never communicate.

Speaker 3 never say anything and that night ends and pretty much from there I just decided that my cousin and his wife don't deserve to be my friend. So

Speaker 3 I decided to make a boundary.

Speaker 3 And at that point, I had decided if they reached out, if they texted me about whatever, I would respond because we're family, we have a very small family, whatever, that was the easiest thing for me.

Speaker 3 but I wasn't going to initiate any conversations, any hangouts, whatever. And that worked for a couple months.

Speaker 3 And then in the spring, she reached out to me and said, you know, did I do something to you?

Speaker 3 I feel like we're not as close, which was very shocking because she's pretty self-absorbed and we don't live in the same city and didn't think she would notice. But

Speaker 3 I had told myself, if she ever asked, I would be honest. And so I just said, you know, this last year was a lot.
Following their wedding, I ended up going through a breakup like three days later.

Speaker 3 So that was a rough time anyway. And so I said,

Speaker 2 why, I mean, not to sidetrack, but why did, why did you and your boyfriend break up three days after this wedding?

Speaker 3 Um, looking back, I really think that he was trying to just hold on for the wedding because I there was just like a lot of drama surrounding it and whether or not he was going to be invited.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I think he was just trying to hold on. He broke up with me three days later and was like, yeah, we don't, I don't see a future with you.
Bye.

Speaker 2 Jesus. um

Speaker 2 i'm just at a loss for words for people to be clear your cousin and his now wife were informed by you of what this man did yes the night it happened there were there's there was no gray area there was no you were very clear about what happened Yes, I was hysterically crying.

Speaker 3 And then two weeks later, when I had that phone call with her, I retold the whole, you know, story.

Speaker 3 And in fact, she was like, yeah, the guy reached out to us the day after, worried that the cops were going to show up. And I was like, well,

Speaker 3 if he reached out to you the day after, why didn't you then reach out to me?

Speaker 2 And was her response on that phone call? Like, I,

Speaker 2 I'm thinking if like someone like I, you know, a friend or loved one or whatever, my girlfriend told me this story, I would

Speaker 2 I would lose it. And so she was like, what was her response? She was just like, oh, that sucks.

Speaker 2 Like, what was she saying to you when you confronted her on that phone conversation?

Speaker 3 So she was really nice. Like, she, she says all the right things, right? Like, what is that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what are the right things?

Speaker 3 I'm so sorry this happened to you. Of course, you won't be invited to the wedding.
You're our family. That's disgusting.

Speaker 3 You know, whatever.

Speaker 2 But that's like, that's like a reaction to someone who like called you the C word.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 I would have thought that someone had been like, What, what should we do about that? How can I help you? How can I support you? Do you want to, do you want to call the authorities? Like,

Speaker 2 you know, again, I hope my asking you about the authorities, like, you know, again, whatever. But, like, it's obviously, I don't know what it's like to be in your position.

Speaker 2 Sadly, I know enough of women who have been in that position.

Speaker 2 What I've learned from those women is like the fear and the aloneness that they feel and the fear of like people people not believing them the fear of retaliation etc etc and so I would think that the people who knew about this uh would I don't know would would empathize in a different way other than being like that sucks

Speaker 3 yeah I think I got that from my actual friends right so it's like I didn't I didn't need that from her maybe I expected it from her well not that you needed that from her but she's literally a witness to an event yeah she is and so is my cousin yeah and this and this man is like going like you know

Speaker 2 yeah um yeah i know okay so anyways back to she reached out yes okay um and was like checking in and be like why aren't we clouds

Speaker 3 yeah

Speaker 3 um i should note that while i was obviously closer to my cousin i grew up with him um i have not spoken to him since the night of his wedding and he has not reached out to me ever.

Speaker 3 And the only time I ever said anything to him to him about this event i like mentioned it in passing and he just said well that's on you so i kind of knew where he stood so i had already kind of decided like what's on you yeah

Speaker 3 um he said

Speaker 3 that well i watched you take him into the room so that's on you and i was like wow missed the part where that gave him free reign of my body but all right um crazy so that's fine right okay so that's but at least he that tells me who you are.

Speaker 3 Like, and then we haven't spoken and it is what it is. It's his wife that I kind of am like really struggling with.

Speaker 2 What, what part are you struggling with?

Speaker 3 Okay, so she reaches out and says, like, why aren't we close? And I said, you know, the last year is a lot, just like really trying to work through things on my own.

Speaker 3 Just need some space. And that was the wrong thing to say, I guess, because she lost it.
And she was like, I'm, crying right now. We need to have a conversation and I'm so sorry and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 I was like, nope, we don't need to have a conversation. I'm good.
This is the boundary. This is what I'm comfortable with.
And then from there, it just kind of like really has progressed

Speaker 3 where she just sends me these like long ranting text messages, like really out of pocket things, like, well, he's your only cousin and like all this stuff. And you're going to split up the family.

Speaker 3 And I'm like,

Speaker 2 no, I'm not. What was your response?

Speaker 2 I mean, if I were, um,

Speaker 2 I don't know if you're interested in what I would have responded with.

Speaker 3 Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 2 I would respond, you invited my

Speaker 2 to your wedding. I want nothing to do with you guys.
Go fuck off.

Speaker 3 Okay. Well, here's the problem with that.
Um, because that crossed my mind, but I, I hadn't told my parents, right? Like, this is not a comfortable thing to talk about. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And so at that point, originally, when she's like, we need to have a conversation.

Speaker 3 And at that point, she starts out very like, I'm so sorry, tell me what I did, tell me what I can do to make it better, whatever. And I'm like, nah, I'm not interested in rehashing.

Speaker 3 And then that's not good enough. So she just like keeps going, keeps going.
It escalates to, well, maybe we won't come to Thanksgiving. And it's like, all right.

Speaker 3 But then that kind of like almost felt like a threat to me. So I felt like then I had to tell my parents, um,

Speaker 3 or at least some version of it. So I did.

Speaker 3 And that's really, that was kind of the last straw for me because that is no conversation that anybody should have to have with like their parents, especially like, well, I mean, my mom, I think the what do you mean by that?

Speaker 3 I mean, she,

Speaker 3 nobody wants to hurt their parents.

Speaker 2 No, and I know that this wasn't like my action, it wasn't my doing, but that's the thing that's the job of a parent, you know, like I have a one-year-old daughter and I truly hope, God forbid,

Speaker 2 um, um anything close to this happens to her but i certainly hope that i will make my daughter feel safe and comfortable to come to me and natalie yeah i i hate that well how did your mom how did your parents handle it first and foremost um my dad just was like really upset and didn't really like i actually wasn't planning on telling my dad he just was in the room and

Speaker 3 just heard it but um And then my mom was like, well, did you like, did you at least leave scratches on him? Like, it was just like the saddest conversation. And I was like,

Speaker 2 your mom's trying to like remember what she learned from law and order and shit. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 She's like, well, if there was DNA. And I'm like, no, no, no, because at this point it's been like

Speaker 3 it's done. I made my decision not to report and like,

Speaker 3 whatever. Anyway, but

Speaker 3 so it got to the point where my cousin's wife. it's basically every month she sends me this like long really long winded text um and she's like i was the only person that was there for you.

Speaker 3 Whoa,

Speaker 3 when?

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 3 I called you. I called you twice, like all this stuff.
You know, your brain was really fuzzy around that time because of this traumatic experience.

Speaker 3 I was like, oh, so this is what, I don't love the term gaslighting, but this, this is crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm really sorry.

Speaker 3 It's fine. It's just like she ends up.

Speaker 2 It's not fine. It's not.
Well,

Speaker 2 I know you're, I know you're dealing with it. I know that you're surviving through it.
And yes, you will be okay, but it's, it's just not fine that you had to experience this or that she did this.

Speaker 2 You know, it's not fine that your cousin made you feel like you did something wrong. Like it's not okay.
It's fucked up beyond

Speaker 2 like it's it's so fucked up that they invited him to the wedding. It's so fucked up.
I mean, I think it's fucked up that they didn't like they didn't say whatever you need from us in this moment.

Speaker 2 If you want to call the police, we have your like, to me, that's fucked up. I mean, so they didn't even do that.
And then they, like, for invite them to your, like,

Speaker 2 I mean, but call it what it is.

Speaker 3 They didn't believe. I mean, let's truly, like, if you really believe someone that this happened, you, you react how you said.
That's a good point.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So, well, I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 you're probably right, but I don't know if that's always the case. I think sometimes there was a situation.
It's

Speaker 2 Nally had something happen to her recently. It was a very difficult experience.

Speaker 2 People will learn about it soon. And she did not get the response that she wanted from her mom.
And I was a bit shocked because her mom has always been a really empathetic and caring and loving mom.

Speaker 2 And then Nally communicated like, hey, like, you know, a little call off guard by your response. We could really use a mom right now.

Speaker 2 And it's like, it was like all of a sudden, like her mom was being like a 17-year-old girl.

Speaker 2 And it was like so obvious, like, what her mom needed to do in this moment. And yet, her mom was like making all these excuses as to why,

Speaker 2 you know, she didn't respond the way she needed to respond. And again, this is nothing like what, you know, it's

Speaker 2 something to do with her health.

Speaker 2 She's okay, but,

Speaker 2 you know, it's just like you, she really needed a mom, you know, and it's like,

Speaker 2 it's not that her, you know, and this wasn't about believing like something happened, you know, it was, it was very definitive. And her mom just decided to act like

Speaker 2 a casual friend giving their condolences. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry that happened to you.
And it's like, I'm here and like, what the fuck, you know?

Speaker 2 And I only bring that up because it's like, it was just, I think sometimes

Speaker 2 people want to,

Speaker 2 I think sometimes, and i don't know how the brain works some you know

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 maybe they didn't believe you there that's definitely one possibility and sadly a likely possibility given just how people react to these things also i think there's a possibility that like they found the truth really inconvenient to their to them yeah you know it's like you know what i'm saying because i i think there's a difference between flat out not believing you and like just thinking you're lying you know because sometimes when you know because like they're acting like they don't believe you right that's like you're coming to this a very logical conclusion that there's a disconnect and I almost feel like it's more just inconvenient for them or they feel bad or they don't think or she feels guilty about how she handled it you know maybe she is there's a part of her like with Natalie's mom I think there's a little bit of like She she knew she handled it poorly instead of just like swallowing her pride and stepping up and start being the mom Natalie needed her to be in that moment, she started saying things like, well, I just knew you had a great husband and I knew Nick was like, what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 2 Either way, I mean, none of this really matters in terms of whether they believe you or not believe you. Like, yes, to answer your question, your cousin's the villain.
And I think my hope for you.

Speaker 2 is that you stop wasting any energy on this, on these two people and you stop thinking that you owe them any more of your energy or time or consideration. And whatever threats or

Speaker 2 about family dynamic or the peace in the family, that is on them.

Speaker 2 And I know that you don't want this to, I understand, get out, but I don't want you to live in fear. That's my hope for you.
And yeah, fuck them.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 truly fuck them.

Speaker 3 I mean, I

Speaker 3 do totally get that. And obviously I've like, you know, run this by my therapist and a couple of my friends.
And that is like the general consensus.

Speaker 3 And I think that is such an easy thing to say, right? It's common sense. Like, this is crazy.
The stuff she has said to me, how she has acted towards me is wild.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I tried for a long time to like keep the peace.

Speaker 3 And I don't even care about keeping the peace anymore, but I am going to have to see these people.

Speaker 3 And I, I guess my two points are like, she's going to confront confront me when I, if I, whenever I see her in person.

Speaker 2 When you say you have to see these people, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 Well, and I really thought about it. I'm like, when, so Thanksgiving didn't see them, Christmas, didn't see them, but she was reaching out, trying to see me, trying to see me.

Speaker 3 But I, I work a job that I don't work normal days. Um, and so I just use that as an excuse.
And she's already texted me. Are we going to see you at Easter? Like, she just will not stop.

Speaker 3 And I just don't really know. I've said everything to her, I feel like.

Speaker 2 Have you asked her if she believes you?

Speaker 3 I have. And she said, of course I believe you.
I was the only person there for you.

Speaker 2 So, of course, I believe you. I'm a good, like, again,

Speaker 2 this is not the time for her to pat herself on the back.

Speaker 3 No, it's crazy. The text that she sent me, she said, like, I'm not a terrible person.

Speaker 2 If you believe me, then you wouldn't have invited the person who sexually assaulted me to your wedding.

Speaker 3 She said, my cousin invited him behind her back.

Speaker 2 I don't care.

Speaker 3 I know that was nice.

Speaker 2 And then, then, then, then, as a human being, or let alone a woman, I mean, she should have made a scene.

Speaker 2 If I would, I don't care, my wedding, if I would have known that someone who sexually assaulted a friend, anyone at my wedding, I would have removed them from my wedding. Yes.

Speaker 2 And if it, and if that created a scene, so be it. I mean, I, you know, people,

Speaker 3 yeah, I think any rational human being would do the same. But I, I think, like, I've, I've come to terms with that.
And that's why I don't want to have this like friendship relationship with them.

Speaker 3 But I just, she just won't stop. And you asked her to stop, yes, multiple times.
The only thing I haven't done is just ignore her.

Speaker 2 I mean, do you feel like your parents have your back?

Speaker 3 They do.

Speaker 3 But my dad, for sure.

Speaker 3 My cousin is my mom's brother

Speaker 3 son. So and they're very, very close.
Okay.

Speaker 3 And I think while my mom has my back, I think she has also an idea of like, this is the only family we have and not wanting to kind of like fracture that.

Speaker 2 It's not an ideal situation. I recognize that as we sit here today,

Speaker 2 there's no like, well, if you do do X, Y, and Z, everyone's going to be happy. And to me,

Speaker 2 again, I hope this is just my opinion and take it with a grain of salt. Like, this isn't about keeping the peace.
Yeah. I mean, it's about keeping your peace.

Speaker 2 And right now, unfortunately, you're being put in this position with two bad choices, right?

Speaker 2 Like, either, like, protect yourself from the constant reminder, because what all your cousin and his wife now have made themselves is a reminder of your assault. Definitely.

Speaker 2 Every time you have to deal with her reaching out, it is a trigger for you. I can only assume it brings you back to that place on some level.
And that's disgusting and totally unfair to you.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, and now you're being forced with like dealing with that and like somehow being solely responsible for keeping the peace in the family.

Speaker 2 And so, I don't know, you know, you say your friends have your back, but your friends almost sound like my position where it's easy for me to say this to you.

Speaker 2 I'm not part of your family, you know, and some of these friends,

Speaker 2 what I'm hearing from you, like have your back, but like they're not the ones who have to show up to Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter.

Speaker 2 And it's your mom who, if I'm hearing you correctly, has your back, but whether your mom is making you feel this way or you're just putting this pressure on you, you're on yourself, worrying how your mom might react to having to distance herself from her own brother and her nephew because of how your cousins chose to handle this and you not wanting to do that to your mom.

Speaker 2 I just don't, I, I just, I would love for your mom and maybe, maybe your mom would, you know but like I'd love for your mom to like take that burden off your shoulders.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I just think it's not realistic. Like her my mom takes care of her parents and then my uncle comes in and helps her and she's like very stressed out about that.

Speaker 3 And so I just feel like that's not really fair. None of it is fair.

Speaker 2 But like none of this is fair. This is not about fairness.
This is not about fairness. Yeah.
This is about right and wrong.

Speaker 3 So you think I just

Speaker 3 ignore that and like cut them off?

Speaker 2 If you're willing and wanting to have one more conversation with this cousin of yours, which sounds like you probably already said all these things anyways,

Speaker 2 and just simply said, just to reiterate, I was assaulted. You invited that person to your wedding.
I don't really care what you think you did. Like you in no way.

Speaker 2 gave me the support I felt like I needed.

Speaker 2 And again, you invited this person to your wedding and you can blame it on your cousin or not but like you all just like look turned the other cheek when he showed up and you just hoped that I would be okay and I think that's unforgivable and totally up and I honestly just want nothing to do with you guys short of you showing me that you completely recognize what you did

Speaker 2 Like and I didn't honestly like you clearly don't because I've gotten tons of like all your messages are full of excuses and justifications.

Speaker 2 It's like, I'm sorry this happened to you, but I did this, or I'm sorry, but,

Speaker 2 you know, similar again, the situation with Natalie and her mom.

Speaker 2 It's just like, I don't think it's quite registered yet because it's like she, everything out of her mouth is, I'm sorry, but like, I'm the victim here, you know, because she feels bad for like not handling it the way she should have handled it.

Speaker 2 And, but that's, you know, and again, I'm not trying to compare, you know, Nellie and your mom will get through this. It's nothing compared to what happened to you.

Speaker 2 I, I just, I really feel for you that you've been burdened with this

Speaker 2 choice

Speaker 2 of having to keep the peace and protecting yourself from constantly being triggered about your assault.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's definitely the worst part. Like, I definitely worked past and through this assault.
I'm, I'm good. I don't think about it all the time.
Like, obviously, there's going to be triggers.

Speaker 3 Like, it is what it is. But every time she texts, like, I have this like anxious feeling in my like gut.

Speaker 3 But I mean, at the very least, I will have to see them at my grandparents' funerals whenever, you know, I've thought this through like really

Speaker 3 long.

Speaker 2 And listen, they are family. So it might be unrealistic to not ever see them again, but it's very realistic to just set a very clear boundary where like, I just do not want you around me.

Speaker 2 I do not want you reaching out. I mean, I think you should block her for one.
If she, you know, she can't text you if she, if you're blocked.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Do you think that's dramatic, though?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 I just, unless I'm not understanding your story, I think what's dramatic and disgusting is the way your cousin and his wife has handled this and the way they've put you in the shoes and the fact that she is so self-centered.

Speaker 2 And thinking about how this reflects on her and how this is reflecting her is all I need to know about this person.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why you would ever want, like, if she can't have your back in this situation, she'll never actually have your back ever.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, I definitely don't want to be a friend. I actually don't want anything to do with her.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 I don't think you should.

Speaker 2 I don't think you should be. I don't think

Speaker 2 I have cousins I don't talk to.

Speaker 3 I know, but I have like I flat out ignore them.

Speaker 3 You have a very large family. I have a very small family.
So this is kind of just like it.

Speaker 2 But I mean, I don't know. Sure, but you know, like large large or not,

Speaker 2 I've had those cousins reach out to their parents to complain to my parents. And my response is, I don't care.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And to be clear,

Speaker 2 this is nothing, you know,

Speaker 2 I just find them to be, I don't trust them and I find them to be kind of like drama. And, but

Speaker 2 I'm definitely, I'm very good at setting boundaries. I am.
I always have been. But like, this is nothing, like, I just don't,

Speaker 2 my choice is more a product. Yeah, I'm being proactive and being like, I don't trust them.
I think they're drama.

Speaker 2 I've had too many situations in the past where letting this person into my life created more drama. But

Speaker 2 like, this is

Speaker 2 so much, you know,

Speaker 2 yeah, I just, listen, you will disrupt a peace. Yeah.
But I mean, I don't know. Like, I guess you just have to decide what's, which is more.

Speaker 2 Listen, it will be infinitely more difficult if your mom in any way applies guilt towards you for saying hey mom dad like just so you are aware uh this is what's going on with cousin and his wife and this is how it's made me feel and i i i can't ever be around them what they did to me is unforgivable i hope that i have your support and mom like obviously if you want like i'm not asking you not to talk to your brother or anything like that but please don't ask me to ever be around them and please protect me from having to engage with them because seeing them is simply just a trigger and a reminder of what happened.

Speaker 2 And I hope your parents say whatever you need.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You don't think they will?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 I think my dad will because I mean, it's not his family and he's like, fuck it, you know, like, but I mean, it's like not his side of the family.

Speaker 3 And he doesn't like them anyway. So.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 your mom has some work to do then.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I would agree with that. I just, I don't, I don't want to make her life more difficult.

Speaker 2 I, she's your mom. It's her job.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So,

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, again, I, I,

Speaker 2 I have some very clear and strong opinion. Like, it's my job to protect my daughter.
And whatever happens to my daughter is not an inconvenience to me.

Speaker 2 And I love my family and I love my siblings and I love my parents, but like nothing matters more than the safety of my daughter, her emotions, her well-being, her physical safety, and nothing matters more.

Speaker 2 And I look forward to standing up for her and I look forward to being her in a time of crisis. And that's an opportunity for me to be her dad.
And like, that is not a burden on me. It is my job.

Speaker 2 It is my responsibility. It does not make my life worse.
It makes me sad to hear my daughter might have been hurt and it will break my heart, but that is my burden and my cross to bear.

Speaker 2 And it's it's my opportunity to be her dad.

Speaker 3 That was really sweet.

Speaker 2 Thanks. But

Speaker 2 that's how every parent should be. And it's not your job as a child to carry that burden.

Speaker 2 It is not your job to look out for the emotional well-being of your mom, specifically when it's your burden and

Speaker 2 you have to hold on to your pain to protect your parents. That's not your job.

Speaker 3 Yeah. No,

Speaker 3 I do totally hear you. I think, okay, so if in a situation where I have to see them, I mean, I can't say they can't go to like a funeral or whatever, you know, or.

Speaker 2 No, I mean, there, you may be, yeah, listen, the sad reality is, is there may be moments where you're going to have to remove yourself from a situation where otherwise you'd want to be because they're probably not going to bow out.

Speaker 2 And that's a sacrifice, you know. But then that'll be a choice that, you know, you'll have to make.
And, but I think it's okay for you to make that. You know, I'm not telling you what you should do.

Speaker 2 I just want to give you permission to do it without any guilt of how it might affect other people.

Speaker 2 If you don't want to go to a Christmas party that they're going to attend, then you shouldn't have to go and you shouldn't have to feel bad about it.

Speaker 2 And if you want to go, then you should have the right to go. But no one should be pressuring you or trying to convince you or making you feel bad for setting a boundary on this topic.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think my mom's hoping that I just kind of like get over it.

Speaker 2 That's But it's not that I'm, I don't know, it's not that I'm not over it.

Speaker 3 I am over it. I just, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 You don't ever have to be over it. That's an,

Speaker 2 I mean, I, yeah. I hope that you are healed as much as you can be from this experience, but you don't have to get over it, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay. So I guess in conclusion,

Speaker 3 I'll just. I think I'm going to try to just ignore her first.
And then if she continues to just rantingly text me, then I'll block her.

Speaker 2 Why can't you just block her?

Speaker 2 Do what you want, but what's the difference? What are you hoping happens? And I guess, what is your wish?

Speaker 3 I just don't want to start a fight of like,

Speaker 3 oh my gosh, she blocked me and blow. Like, I don't know.
It just like seems like unnecessary drama that I don't feel like dealing with.

Speaker 2 You're not creating the drama.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 2 And you're not blocking her to start drama.

Speaker 2 I'm right. I mean, that's not your intention.

Speaker 3 No, I want her to leave me alone.

Speaker 2 Correct. And she's not.
And her texting you emotionally affects you. It, it, it, it ruins your day, maybe multiple days.
It consumes your energy when, you know, it brings you back.

Speaker 2 These are all incredibly unfair things that are happening to you. So that's why you're doing it.
You know, if you were just like, you know what, I just want to fuck with her because she pissed me.

Speaker 2 If, you know, if you're doing it to be petty, don't do it. But I don't think you're doing it to be petty.

Speaker 2 What I hope for you is that you just do things for yourself without worrying about how it's going to affect other people, specifically when it comes to this and how other people react to you setting your boundaries is a them problem.

Speaker 2 And you, you know, if she wants to throw a fit, I mean, listen,

Speaker 2 I guess I can only assume that, I mean, do you think, okay, let's, you block her, right? She gets mad, she throws a fit, whatever. She can't rage text you anymore because she's blocked.

Speaker 2 You know, block her on email, block her on Instagram, block her across the fucking board.

Speaker 2 So what could she do? Could she go to other family members and say, Tiffany blocked me?

Speaker 2 Sure, but like, is she really going to force your hand to explain to people why?

Speaker 3 Well, that's how I felt about whether or not to write it for this podcast because everyone's like, do you really want to go on a podcast and talk about this? Like, what if she hears it?

Speaker 3 I'm like, well, one, I don't. I don't know if she will or not, but two, that's not my problem.
Like, this is my story.

Speaker 3 And like, also, no one else else is going to know because it's not like she's going around telling people, like, this is the shitty thing I did to my cousin, you know, like, so I don't really, I don't really care if she goes around and tells people I think it, cause I don't know what version, even if she changes the truth, there's no version that she could tell that doesn't make her look shitty.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, even if all this guy did was grope you, I would have

Speaker 2 just as strong of his an opinion. And the fact that this guy was so much worse,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, to your point, I just like your cousin and his wife are on fucking Mars.

Speaker 3 I wish they'd stay there.

Speaker 2 Like, no, but I wouldn't have to, you know, talk to them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I just, um, I don't know.

Speaker 2 I'm really sorry that you have to deal with this. It sucks.

Speaker 3 That's life.

Speaker 2 It's not fair.

Speaker 3 It's okay.

Speaker 2 I, yeah, no, I know life. You know, and you will, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, clearly you are resilient.

Speaker 2 And, and that's a, it's like, it's a a value that I core value that I value the most and so I'm glad you have that but I think it's also okay for you to just say that's fucking terrible and I don't deserve this and if you want to talk about fairness the only one who's not being treated fairly is you and that's okay for you to say that and acknowledge that and it's okay for people to give you that empathy It's it's just not your job to be the strong person here.

Speaker 2 And it's like what I'm hearing from you is like, you have to be strong for everyone else in your family so that they're not inconvenienced by your assault.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, it's not their fault I got assaulted either.

Speaker 2 It's their fault. There's no, it's their fault for how they're choosing to handle this.
Tragedy happens sadly to us all or our loved ones.

Speaker 2 And in that moment, we can either decide to be there for them in the best possible way we know how, or we can act like it's inconvenient for us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, like, let's say River, for some reason down the line, gets addicted to some kind of drug or something. Right.

Speaker 2 I could either say to myself, all right, how do I be there and help my kid? Or I could worry about how that's going to reflect on me to my community.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, like that's a choice I can make.

Speaker 2 Sadly, a lot of people make the latter choice. I don't think I will.
That's the choice. You know, it's not anyone's fault other than that man for what he did.

Speaker 2 But how these people are reacting to you being a victim is a choice they are making and they should be accountable for their choices.

Speaker 3 I agree.

Speaker 2 And you have the right to hold these people accountable, including your mom. Yeah.
Yeah, sometimes tough love is the only way to get through to people. Like, again,

Speaker 2 bring up Natalie and her mom confrontation. I'm very confident they'll get through this and I'm very confident her mom

Speaker 2 is going to finally realize that she really fucked up and truly give the appropriate response to Natalie that she should have. But

Speaker 2 it didn't happen without like without some tough conversations between Natalie and mom, and quite frankly, from me as well.

Speaker 2 And that's okay. And sometimes you just need to

Speaker 2 say the thing. And

Speaker 2 in the heat of the moment, you're not going to get the reaction you want. There's going to be some defensiveness and things like that.

Speaker 2 But my hope for your mom, of all people, is to that she processes it, what's happened, takes her feelings out of it and says, my only job right now is to be a mother to my daughter and everything else is inconsequential.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I agree with that.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 3 Okay. I guess I'll have a locker.

Speaker 2 Was this helpful?

Speaker 3 It was. I just, I just needed a, like a different perspective of someone who actually doesn't know the people and who doesn't know me.

Speaker 3 Cause obviously all of my friends are just gonna be like, fuck her, she's horrible. And I, I get that.
I just wanted to kind of make make sure that I'm not overreacting or being emotional.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know. You have the right to overreact.
You're not overly emotional. You have the right to be emotional.

Speaker 2 We're talking about assault here. And I think what's what makes me so sad for you is that you've been made to feel that your feelings about this are wrong.
And whatever you're feeling is totally fine.

Speaker 2 It's totally justified.

Speaker 2 And the fact that these people, again, they're not the ones who did what he did to you, but they are accountable for their choices.

Speaker 2 And you have the right to feel a certain way about the choices that they're making without any guilt or shame around it.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think that's true.

Speaker 2 All right. I'm really sorry that you had to do the deal with all this.
And I'm sorry what happened to you.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 3 Bye.

Speaker 2 Bye-bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 3 Good. My name is Camilla.
I'm 29 years old, and I'm letting my boyfriend down every day by not buying us a house.

Speaker 2 All right. So

Speaker 3 did I mess that up? I didn't.

Speaker 2 No, that was perfect, but I'm more perplexed by how are you letting him down by not buying him a house? Where does he fit in the responsibility of buying a house? Yeah. Why is this your fault?

Speaker 3 So my boyfriend is 36 and he works in the service industry as a bartender. So, and I work in finance.
I make around mid six figures.

Speaker 3 So talking to lenders, it makes kind of no sense for him to be on the mortgage. It makes sense for just me to be on the mortgage.

Speaker 3 And he has about 40 or 50,000 saved in like CDs, I think he had when he was younger that he'll put the deposit down for.

Speaker 3 But I guess the idea that he's decided is since I'm already all on the mortgage, it just makes the most sense that I take over the full mortgage until he recoups that 40 or 50,000.

Speaker 2 Are you wanting to buy a house?

Speaker 3 I do, but the kind of situation is, so about

Speaker 3 two years ago, I moved home. But before then, I was living in a city across the country and in my 20s, probably didn't make the best financial decision.

Speaker 3 So I ended up in around like 55,000 of credit card debt,

Speaker 3 which that's why I moved home was to live with my family and get out of debt and not pay rent, which is actually when I met my now boyfriend. And I'm almost out of debt.

Speaker 3 So I'll be fully out of debt in June. But he's not really happy about the fact that I'm asking us to wait until September.

Speaker 3 He wants to buy, honestly, if he could, he would want to buy it like this week.

Speaker 2 But he can't afford it.

Speaker 3 Not without me. No.

Speaker 3 You're not married. And I can't afford it without him.
No.

Speaker 3 So so we're planning on getting engaged soon like we've talked about that and everything but we both kind of like our living situation is like living with roommates like he lives with a roommate i live with him and don't pay rent i pay the groceries since i'm trying to get out of debt but he's just like ready to get out and he feels very against like renting again why I feel like it's just because, I mean, I kind of agree in the sense that like, I think we're just both ready to have our own space, but i think to him buying a house kind of signifies like starting our lives and like kind of getting everything together i would love if your boyfriend were on this call um

Speaker 2 this is a tale as old as time that a lot of people in your position feel very justified for the feelings that they're feeling but just pragmatically speaking my sister

Speaker 2 years ago This was like right before the housing crisis of like 2007, 2008. Her then fiancé, so you're not even engaged yet.
So her, her, they bought a house together.

Speaker 2 Then the, then the housing crisis happened. And then they subsequently, they broke up, partly because he had like a gambling problem and all that other shit.

Speaker 2 But either way, they broke up because people break up. And it was a financial nightmare for her because, you know, he had so many money problems.

Speaker 2 They couldn't sell the house because the house wasn't worth what they paid for it because the housing market crashed. I'm not necessarily saying that's going to happen now,

Speaker 2 but like love doesn't conquer all, you know?

Speaker 2 And there's a lot of different ways to make two people in a relationship feel like they're taking the next step in their relationship and feel like they're advancing their relationship.

Speaker 2 Moving in together and certainly buying a house together,

Speaker 2 what it really is, is unnecessary pressure. on a relationship that is trying to grow and evolve.
And when you add unnecessary pressure to a relationship, it can often ruin a relationship.

Speaker 2 If you both can't afford to buy a house without each other, I wouldn't buy a house. I think if you're married, buy a house together.

Speaker 2 If you can afford to buy a house on your own, then you should buy a house and you can decide whether you want to charge him rent or not. You know? Yeah.
When I bought my first house.

Speaker 3 I don't know how much you would go for that.

Speaker 2 Well, that's,

Speaker 2 well, you've heard me say, you know, the three B's, the broom, the budget, and the bed, when it comes to like the relationship, you know, if one of those three things are in disconnect, that often means doom for a relationship.

Speaker 2 So if you can't have tough discussions about, you know, the broom, whose responsibility is to do what in the house, to clean the house, pay the bills, get groceries, mow the lawn, you know, just like who does what?

Speaker 2 That's the broom. The bed, you know, that speaks for itself in terms of are you guys connecting in the bedroom where you both feel like your needs are being met?

Speaker 2 And then the budget, you know, like, and the budget is often the one that requires the most difficult conversations because especially in your case, you make more money than your, your boyfriend, then you have to worry about him feeling emasculated and all these other variables and things like that.

Speaker 2 But like,

Speaker 2 if you want to be with this man and you want to have a successful relationship with this man, you two are going to have to have these tough conversations.

Speaker 2 And, you know, he doesn't have any leverage here. He can't afford the house.
So he doesn't have to be okay with it. I mean, he can choose to break up with you, I guess.

Speaker 2 And I imagine that would make you sad. And I'm not saying you want that.

Speaker 2 If this man is going to break up with you because you're, you know, and again, you're someone who's already experienced financial hardships from poor financial choices.

Speaker 2 This would be, in my opinion, another poor financial choice. And I don't think guilt and accommodating your boyfriend should be the reason you make another bad financial choice.

Speaker 3 Yeah, which is kind of what I brought up too, which do I wanted to wait until like September of the fall and where I then can at least have, based on my budget, I would have at least 20,000 saved up, which would make me feel better going into a home and everything.

Speaker 3 But, and I like do talk about it non-stop and like, but it kind of always ends up being a fight. Like our most recent one was,

Speaker 3 so I'm going across country back to where I used to live for the week in like two weeks to go see my friend because she's having a baby shower. I'm hosting it.

Speaker 3 And it's kind of just been, I've known this since the fall. I've budgeted for it.
I've used points. I'm staying at her house.

Speaker 3 And anytime it kind of gets brought up, he's kind of like, you know, you know, if you weren't going out there, if you weren't, you know, traveling or doing this, and like, maybe we could be here.

Speaker 3 But like, he's also at this time we're having this fight. He's in another country with his friends.

Speaker 3 And I like kind of brought that up saying how it wasn't really fair that like I'm not able to go do anything without him making me feel guilty for like finances.

Speaker 2 But goddamn bartender.

Speaker 2 Which, you know, like all the respect in the world for the service industry, but that's a choice he is making.

Speaker 2 You know, you can make a lot of money, but I don't know what his education or his, his, his talents are. I'm guessing if he wanted to make more money, he could choose other professions.

Speaker 2 And if he doesn't want to, that's fine, but he doesn't get to place that burden on you because you're in a profession that makes more money.

Speaker 2 My ultimate point is either you guys are going to get married, assuming there's no prenub or anything like that, either you guys are going to get married or you're not going to get married someday.

Speaker 2 And if you get married, all of these conversation about who pays for what or not are irrelevant.

Speaker 2 It's just everything becomes both of yours, depending on what state you're in and things like that, in terms of down payments, like California is a little different.

Speaker 2 And if you don't get married, then you absolutely want to make sure you're making these smart financial choices and not thinking about love when making these choices or upsetting your partner, because then that's when shit really hits the fan.

Speaker 2 Because if you do break up, no one's nice, no one's accommodating, and you're left, you're going to be left with the bill and you're going to be shit out of luck and the burden is going to fall on you because you're the one, you know, who has the means and he's going to bail on you.

Speaker 3 And it does like sometimes like

Speaker 3 I'm hoping it's kind of just because like once I'm out of debt, these conversations kind of minimize because it kind of feels like anytime like if i travel if i go do anything if it's only if it's just something i do for myself though so like i kind of brought up when we got in the fight like okay but you were fine with me spending all this money when we just traveled a few weeks ago together um where i spend way more money than i spend on my own traveling but for him he said it's okay because I'm spending the money on us instead of like, I'm wasting kind of the money just like on me and setting us back for something that I'm just doing for me and not for us.

Speaker 2 In my opinion, I don't think your boyfriend has any right to have an opinion about how you spend your money and vice versa.

Speaker 2 I don't think you have a right to really have an opinion about how he spends his money.

Speaker 2 You guys can have conversations about the goals you have as a couple, but like those expectations should be equal.

Speaker 2 Like he doesn't get to be like, well, you make more money than like, it's really your job to save. It's not my job to save.

Speaker 3 I guess his feeling is like he already did that part so he's like i already saved which like he's had

Speaker 3 money saved for a while like the 40 or 50 000 he's putting down so his feeling is like i did my part like now it's up to you and you're not like fulfilling your half by doing these things so he feels like he can do what he wants with this money because he's already saved the part that we need i think it would be crazy for you guys to buy a house together that's yeah my family thinks that sometimes i mean you're i mean you you better get married yeah i mean i think, I mean, we're planning on getting engaged in the next like three months.

Speaker 2 Like by the time we'd buy a house, we'd at least be engaged, which sure, but like, you know, I mean, I've been engaged through multiple times. I'm not getting,

Speaker 3 you know, yeah, that's fair. I've been engaged once before.
So there you go.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm just saying, like, you know, I just, I think you're, you're, I get it. Like, these are not fun conversations to have with your boyfriend or girlfriend because it feels very unromantic.

Speaker 2 And it feels like, but like couples should not be afraid to acknowledge acknowledge reality and the reality is like for every couple if you guys don't do the work every day

Speaker 2 to keep your connection strong and

Speaker 2 you know then things might go south and there is no reason for you guys to make financial bets on your relationship just because

Speaker 2 because that's what you're doing You're making a financial bet on your relationship. You're going to Vegas and you're saying, I'm going to bet $50,000 will never break up.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's what you're doing.

Speaker 3 It's just hard because I feel like that's like, it's the only thing like he like really wants or talks about. So it's like, if I'm not,

Speaker 3 and I feel guilty because I do know, like, I feel bad. Like, it is like something that I always have like a lot of guilt on is like the debt thing.

Speaker 3 Like, and that's why I like made it clear to him like before I got married, like he wanted us to get engaged like earlier, but I told him, like, I don't want to get engaged.

Speaker 3 I don't want to get married. I don't want to do any of that until I have my debt figured out.
Cause like, I don't want to bring that into a relationship or have someone else have to handle that.

Speaker 2 I mean, and I've worked hard on the marriage part I get, but like, you know, maybe that's where you can, you know, again, I don't, don't get engaged if you don't want to get engaged, but maybe, maybe you've driven, maybe you've set this very rigid boundary that maybe you don't need to set specifically when it comes to getting engaged as it relates to your debt.

Speaker 2 You know, if you're like, hey, I really want to deal with this, I guess if I'm trying to empathize with your boyfriend, you know, you're like, I don't want to get married and I don't even want to get engaged.

Speaker 2 He's trying to find other things to feel like this relationship is advancing, right? And you've taken engagement off the table.

Speaker 2 So maybe he's just, in his mind, decided that, well, buying a house together will make him feel more secure in a relationship. Maybe his reaction.

Speaker 2 to all this, well, I find to be like surprising if I'm, again, if I'm trying to put my, not a therapist, but if I were trying to like invoke what I think my therapist would say to me and shit is that like maybe he's got his own abandonment issues and the fact that he definitely does so like you don't want to get engaged you don't want to get married you're like no no no no no on all these like other things that he would otherwise do to advance the relationship you can get engaged and break up I understand the marriage and the debt part but like also you could sign a pre-nub too you could sign a pre-nub I maybe I think when it comes to debt, you know, where it's just like, my debt is my debt.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Maybe creditors, I don't know, maybe that's a conversation for a lawyer, but there's things you can do.
But so maybe you have to offer him something.

Speaker 2 I think it's a lot, it's a lot smarter to get engaged than buy a house together.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I feel like he definitely does. Like, I think there's two reasons he kind of puts so much pressure on the housing.

Speaker 3 It's one, like I, like in our relationship, I like was the one who like broke up with him at one point.

Speaker 2 Sure. Because

Speaker 3 he wasn't, you know, he wasn't basically being the partner that I needed him to be. And I made it super clear that like, if he wasn't, then I couldn't be in the relationship.

Speaker 3 And then when we got back together, I feel like there's still that feeling of sometimes he feels like insecure about it.

Speaker 3 And then I think also because being like him being older, him like being like in bartending and everything, I think he feels like, okay, well, you know, I need to show like my friends all bought houses now and they all have kids and they're all married.

Speaker 3 So it's like. he's wanting those things.
And I try to remind him, like, when you were 29, you weren't in the financial spot to buy a house. Like when you were 29, like you weren't doing those things.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's, I think there's a little bit of abandonment, anxiety, or whatever going on. And I think some of his response to these conversations

Speaker 2 is there's a deeper issue here, you know? But I think I just, more than anything, I need you both to recognize that minus the love aspect, marriage is a contract.

Speaker 2 And so is buying a house. Engagement, you don't have to sign anything.

Speaker 2 So make decisions for you that that are much you know easier to get out of decisions that require lawyers to get out of you better be sure you're ready yeah especially with me being on the mortgage completely on my own yeah and if you get married then the house becomes half his anyways so it's just like he doesn't do well though when i bring up these like conversations like i try to be like super pragmatic but he kind of just tends to jump more into like

Speaker 3 emotions and then it kind of just all files back on like, okay, well, you're, you put us in this a spot like position by doing whatever you wanted when you were in your 20s, by like going out.

Speaker 3 And like, I didn't do that. Like, you get to like do whatever you want.
And now I have to pay for it,

Speaker 3 which is, I think,

Speaker 3 difficult. And he sometimes uses it as a reason as to why I shouldn't go do things.
And I think sometimes it's because he doesn't really like, he doesn't really like when I leave him.

Speaker 2 But have you guys considered couples therapy as a, you know, in general? And to talk about this issue?

Speaker 3 So he's like, when we broke up i brought up he brought up wanting to do couples therapy but then once we got back together that kind of fizzled out and i feel like it was just something he said to like probably make me feel comfortable about getting back together well i i i don't my guess is

Speaker 2 uh you've already tried and despite what i'm saying to you now maybe i'm just going to reaffirm your position and make you feel confident to hold your ground but you're not you know you're trying to resolve this conflict with your boyfriend, right?

Speaker 2 That's why you called. You're trying to figure out how, there's a, there's a huge disconnect between the two of you right now.

Speaker 2 And despite whether, what you and I feel, your boyfriend isn't understanding, right? So you and I can agree all we want, but your goal isn't for you to be right.

Speaker 2 Your goal is to be happy with your boyfriend.

Speaker 2 And listen, if he wants to come on, I can try to articulate my point of view, but like maybe it'd just be easier for you guys to look up a couples therapist about this particular issue.

Speaker 2 Sometimes, you know, lots of times couples join couples, you know, it's like the worst time to get, I mean, there's no bad time to get in couples therapy, but the most common time is like, like you said, it's like when you're about to break up or, you know, you've already broken up and someone's trying to get back together.

Speaker 2 And it's like, usually that's too late there.

Speaker 2 I always say, like, therapy is way more effective when you treat it like a bicycle helmet or a safety belt rather than treat it like reconstructive surgery. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And so he doesn't typically believe in therapy. So I feel like that's why he's

Speaker 2 somebody.

Speaker 2 Listen, he's going to have to work with you. You know?

Speaker 2 So right now.

Speaker 3 I feel like I normally just kind of

Speaker 3 go with what he says with you. It's easier if he gets really combative and

Speaker 3 really defensive. That way.

Speaker 2 That's not going to get any better if you don't deal with that.

Speaker 2 So like marrying this person who you're describing as someone who either gets too emotional or too combative for you to try to get any resolution with him, you just give up is not a recipe for success.

Speaker 2 You can deal with it right now, but that will only lead to resentment.

Speaker 2 So you need to figure out how to deal with difficult conversations that trigger your boyfriend, especially when he gets emotional.

Speaker 2 You need to figure out how to resolve those types of issues with your boyfriend, whatever those issues are, or this, or this relationship won't, is doomed. You know? Yeah.
It's just a matter of time.

Speaker 2 I don't know when the bomb will go off, but it will eventually go off if you can't learn how to deal with this with your boyfriend. So my advice is to, you guys need a third party.

Speaker 2 I mean, because clearly there's more going on than just like a disagreement about, you know, how to buy this house. There's some embedding issues probably going on, things like that.

Speaker 2 And he is leading with his emotions while you're trying to lead with your brain, so to speak. And you're trying to be pragmatic about this.

Speaker 2 And he's making this about like how this makes him feel as a man and how insecure this makes him feel in this relationship, et cetera, et cetera. And for him, those feelings are incredibly valid.

Speaker 2 And while valid as they might be, it doesn't make your position

Speaker 2 wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it's like hard because he's, I'm trying to like understand, like, validate, like, okay, like, you feel this way.

Speaker 3 Like, I understand you feel this way, but he doesn't even understand why he feels that way. So then he's just like, no, I just want to own a house.
Like, I just want to start a lives together.

Speaker 3 And like, it's like, I want to be with you. I want to like have kids, get married.

Speaker 2 married and he want and that kind of like so he wants kids like pretty soon so I think that's why he also wants the house and everything and sometimes I'm like try to remind him that like I'm still only 29 sure and you can say listen I want all those things too but you know you guys have to maybe acknowledge it's only been in my relationship with Natalie where we can acknowledge a disconnect Before that, I would just fight with my partners, you know, and I would try to be right and they would try to be right and we would fight.

Speaker 2 And the longer we tried to be right, the more we would fight. You guys need to just sit there and be like, we're just not on the same page here.

Speaker 2 And what we can agree on is that we want to get on the same page. We're disconnected.
We want to connect. How do we do that? Because we've already agreed, we don't agree.

Speaker 2 So let's not re-litigate all the things we don't agree on over and over and over. Because like, you need a third party.

Speaker 2 Someone needs to come in and hear, let, let both of you speak because now what's, you know, now what's happening with you guys, because you've already, you guys have heard your arguments over and over, you guys are just tuning each other out.

Speaker 2 He says, and you're just like, yeah, I don't hear you, whatever. You talk and he's just like, yeah, whatever, I hear you.
And he's just waiting to respond and you're just waiting to respond.

Speaker 2 A good couples therapist, well, play referee.

Speaker 2 Make sure that the other person's listening, check in, pay attention to like when he is speaking, a good therapist is going to look at you and watch your body language and like pay attention and about whether you're actually hearing about what he is saying.

Speaker 2 And if he, I mean, and if he or she senses that you're not, they'll check in and then vice versa. Because right now you guys are just throwing punches.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's not like we're not going anywhere because I just feel like we're just having

Speaker 3 the same conversations that lead to huge blow-off fights.

Speaker 2 And usually what happens in these situations with what you guys are doing, if you don't actually figure out how to reconnect, then what actually happens is someone just gives in and they don't give in because their mind has changed they give in because they're just tired of fighting and they're just like whatever i guess and they convince themselves that they're okay with giving in and deep down they're really not and that's what leads to resentment i feel like that's what happened last time when we broke up was that i just kept giving in kept being like all right just easier because again he is so hyper emotional i really typically don't care about a lot of like not i don't care a lot of things but like he sometimes cares so much that it's just easier if I just like give in.

Speaker 3 And that's, but then it like slowly, I just kind of like started disconnecting from the relationship to the point that then I was like, I didn't feel anything. I just needed to leave.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you've already broken up once with this man for doing exactly what he's doing. And he's not, it doesn't sound like he's made many improvements in this department.
You just basically got a break.

Speaker 3 Well, and then when I left, he was hardcore, like agreeing with essaying I was right, that he shouldn't have done any of that, that like he was going to go to therapy, that he'd, like, have it all figured out, that he was going to, like, work on all these things.

Speaker 3 And I was right the whole time, that, like, he would never put me through that again.

Speaker 2 And you know, there were some changes.

Speaker 3 And I think

Speaker 2 because, like, there, there are things that maybe you're doing wrong here. It's not that, it's not about right or wrong.

Speaker 2 It wouldn't surprise me to come to find out there are maybe ways that you could communicate things differently that don't trigger him, period.

Speaker 2 Or whether you trigger him, you know, make him feel abandoned or whatever, you know, bring out this child in him that gets hyper-emotional. I'm sure you both could communicate better with each other.

Speaker 2 And so listen, if

Speaker 2 you go to him and say, listen, I really want to figure this out with you. We're obviously not seeing eye to eye on this big decision.
These are huge decisions for us.

Speaker 2 And I would like us to go to a couples therapy so that we can try to get on the same page and honestly deal with this issue, but maybe we'll just learn how to better communicate with each other.

Speaker 2 And if he shuts you down there,

Speaker 2 your response would be like, listen, I don't know what to tell you. You're not like, I don't believe in therapy.
What does that even mean? This is like, you're not asking him to like change religions.

Speaker 2 Like, what do you mean? You don't have to believe in therapy to go to therapy. You know, just go.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, you call it therapy. Call it like a middleman.
Like, you know, it's a therapy or we could just like call up this podcaster who's not a therapist. We can, you know, like, or, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 Someone needs to mediate. And it's, you know, yeah, it could be a friend.
It could be a parent, but like, it's better off when it's someone who should be unbiased and someone who's not someone's side.

Speaker 2 So no one can be like, well, it's your mom and or it's your friend or, you know, it's the podcast you listen to. It should be a third-party person.

Speaker 2 And if he is unwilling to do that, then he's giving you nothing. He's giving you nothing.
I mean, you have, he has to give you something. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I don't want to get back to that point.

Speaker 3 And I've like brought that up being like, you know, like, and I like try to not bring up like if we like get to these points when like we're going round and round or he'll he'll be like, oh, like, are you just going to break up with me again?

Speaker 3 Or are you just going to leave me again? I'm like, no, I don't, like, that is not my plan. I don't want to break up with you.
I want to, like, like, this is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 Like, I try to explain that when we get to that point, like, this is, this is why I left and began. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't want to. I feel like I'm going to know more.
I don't want to break up with you. I really, I want to marry you.

Speaker 2 But we have to make sure, I want, but I want us to create an environment that gives us the best chance to last because I don't want to marry you for a period of time.

Speaker 2 And I want us, us to both be happy.

Speaker 2 I think you, what you should try to do for the foreseeable foreseeable future when you're in conflict with your boyfriend is focus on using we and us language not like you do this and i do this i wouldn't even engage in the house conversation the fight you should fight right now is getting the two of you into couples therapy and you should do that by saying us and we i you know i would like us to get married someday i want us to survive that marriage i want us to be more connected i want us to be on the same page.

Speaker 2 And I think we should go to couples therapy so that we can be closer together.

Speaker 2 And if he wants to fight you on that, then you're going to have to ask yourself if this guy is actually willing to be in a partnership with you or is he expecting you to like constantly concede because he's not willing to do the work and emotionally regulate himself.

Speaker 3 I feel like it's like he's sometimes just so unhappy. That's where like, as his partner, I want to make him happy.

Speaker 2 You can't make him happy. You can't.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's like, it's like, if he buys a house, then he'll be happy.

Speaker 3 Like, he's like, oh, I'm like unhappy because, you know, we're here because like, you know, we live close to your family or because like, you know, we don't have a house or because like, I have to have roommates.

Speaker 3 Like everything will be good like once you can get it together and get me out of this situation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but that's not how it works. I mean, you're, if that's really how your boyfriend thinks, then he has some growing up to do.

Speaker 2 And quite honestly, it sounds like he may need some individual therapy, but I think step one is get you guys into couples therapy and get him maybe more comfortable with that.

Speaker 2 So he doesn't feel like, you know, if you suggest therapy, that's going to make him feel like he's the person in the wrong and he needs to do the work or whatever, but like you're in therapy.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 so yeah, he's, I know you love him. I know you want to make this work, but he's got to work with you.

Speaker 2 And so right now, I think you should give him the opportunity to work with you about getting more connected. Everything that you're describing about how this is being handled is a recipe for disaster.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I feel like we're just like slowly going right back to where we were when I left. And I don't like, I love him so much that I don't, I want to marry him like that.

Speaker 3 It's like when thou percent my goal.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I believe it. Love ain't enough.
You know, it just isn't.

Speaker 2 People have to do their part. You can't, you, you cannot do his work for him.
You can do 100% of your half. And he has to be willing to do his.

Speaker 2 Saying I love you and saying I want to marry you and saying, I want to have kids with you is not enough. Those are just words.
You have to show up every day.

Speaker 2 You have to look in the mirror and ask, how could I do better? How can I be more accountable? What role can I play? And again, that's only your part.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I'm sure you have improvements to make in this relationship as everyone does. But right now, I'm hearing a lot of like, you're trying to do that.

Speaker 2 And he's just leading with his emotions constantly and when he feels triggered or he feels like unsafe in this relationship because of his abandonment issues he plays he uses that as a trump card over everything else and you don't know what to do and he turns into this like child like self and you often just concede because he's throwing an adult temper tantrum and again for small things yeah like you can get by doing that for a period of time but as it's always which has already been the case in this relationship, it runs its course.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I feel like it's like, I'm scared though to bring, like, I want to bring up couples therapy and I have like for a while.

Speaker 3 And I remember I told myself before, like, when this, like, when we got back together, I was like, all right, if we're going to get to the point of engagement, then I want to do couples therapy.

Speaker 3 Like, if we can engage, or like, I want that to be a goal. But I feel like sometimes like he sees it as like a direct.

Speaker 3 attack that like I'm telling him that I'm not happy and I'm going to break up with him.

Speaker 2 You guys both need to. And if he can't, he needs to do some work.
No relationship is going to survive

Speaker 2 if the two of you don't create a safe space for one of you to acknowledge sadness, disappointment, frustration in the relationship, because that's inevitable.

Speaker 2 You have to be able to come to your partner and listen, I have embedded in issues. Natalie has embedded issues.
We're both fucked up. We have our shit that we deal with.

Speaker 2 But what we've worked really hard on is creating an environment where we can come to the other person and say, hey, I'm upset right now. This is bothering me.
And yeah, it's easy to get defensive.

Speaker 2 And sure, we're all human, but like you have to create a space where that's okay. Because if it's not okay, then there's no connection.
There's no communication. There's just resentment.

Speaker 2 Everything that you're describing is going to lead to, it already has clearly led to resentment and it's going to lead to even more.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And it hasn't before.
So it's just

Speaker 3 difficult. Cause like you said, the tantrums are hard because I just don't do emotions that well.
Like I just, they just stress me out and they give me anxiety.

Speaker 3 And then I just would rather just like shut it down, like shut it up, like make it happy. Just don't.

Speaker 2 All you can do is go to him and say, I love you. I love us.
We have, as all couples do, our problems, but I want to feel more connected and I want us to feel closer to each other.

Speaker 2 And I want us to go to couples therapy to work through some of our big disconnects, one being buying a house, but honestly, just in general.

Speaker 2 And it's not because I'm thinking about breaking up with you. It's because like, I want to marry you.
And I think we could be a stronger couple than we are. And we should both want that for us.
And

Speaker 2 the more you say we and us, the less likely you will make him feel like it's you against him. So maybe some of your language, like I, I think about it.
I really think about we and us.

Speaker 2 When you're talking to him, make sure you're saying the word we and us as much as possible. Speak slowly, just like when I'm saying, oh, here's what you should say.

Speaker 2 I'm consciously like, all right, we, us, you know what I'm saying? Like, you can do it. And that really matters.
Because when he hears we, he hears us. You know, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 He wants to hear us, us, us. We, we, we, we, we.
I made Natalie watch a old movie called Far and Away last night. It's a great movie if you've ever seen it.
Nicole Kinman and Tom Cruise.

Speaker 2 It's made in the 90s, whatever. I was like, you got to watch this.
And there's a scene in the movie, like the characters, whatever. She's rich, he's poor, they fall in love.

Speaker 2 But the whole, the whole movie, she's kind of like mean to him.

Speaker 2 You know, he's secretly in love with her, but she's always been mean to him and he has an opportunity and she goes this could get us out of here and he goes us and there's this moment and she's like well i mean you but he was so happy to hear the word us because when she said us that meant they were together so for a guy who has a lot of embattlement issues the more you can say us and we

Speaker 2 it will go a long way with him i promise you And especially when you're pitching couples therapy.

Speaker 2 You know, if you say, hey, I think we should go to couples therapy because like you and I are just not getting along, that's going to trigger him. Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you say, I think we should go to couples therapy because I just want us to continue to be closer and when I want us to get married and I want us to be stronger and that's my biggest priority.

Speaker 2 And I think we should do that together, much better chance of not triggering him.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because right now it's just gets blown out. And I mean, I know he like

Speaker 3 will never leave me, which is why I'm like, I try like almost to a fault.

Speaker 2 No, he'll be an emotional terrorist and push you away until you're forced to break up with him again.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then I'll feel like it's just like we're right back to square one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So listen, he he's got to do his part and you can only do 100% of yours. But there it sounds like there's some things you can do.
Try to implement those and see what happens.

Speaker 2 But buying a house before you two are married, go to Vegas and bet $50,000 in your relationship. You're doing the same goddamn thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, especially because we want to move to like very far away from like family and friends. And then

Speaker 2 it's even potentially more because if you do break up, lawyers, I don't know, last time I heard, they're pretty expensive.

Speaker 3 Therapy's much more. I'm an accountant, so like I, I should be more better, like

Speaker 3 understanding like financial aspects.

Speaker 2 At work, you're making financial decisions without making emotional decisions.

Speaker 2 You are incorporating your emotions into your finances. And that's why we often don't take our own advice or this is very emotional for you.
It's it's love.

Speaker 2 It's, you know, so it's, it's much harder for you to make the same decisions you would maybe make for your clients because you're not emotionally invested in these decisions.

Speaker 2 You're just, you know, one plus one equals two. But when it comes to love, you're like, I don't know, I mean, one plus one usually equals two, but like, what if it equals three?

Speaker 2 And that's what your, your boyfriend is constantly trying to convince you that one plus one equals three.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I feel like it's that feeling of like, since I make the money, like he really doesn't have any like masculine issue, masculine issues on like, oh, like she makes more money.

Speaker 3 It's more of the, you make more money.

Speaker 2 So like, what's his long-term goal?

Speaker 3 You should be able to do this.

Speaker 2 I mean, and does he have that? Like, is he going to be a stay-at-home parent? I try.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So we've talked about that where it's like, that would be, once we have kids, like that would be his goal.
Oh, that's cool. Which he's fine with like, he would rather do that.

Speaker 3 And I, the idea of staying at home with children, actually, like, I love kids, but that would make me nauseous. Like, I love my career.

Speaker 3 So that works, but yeah.

Speaker 2 But until then but you're not married yet and like that's a great plan if you guys get married but like he doesn't get to use that as a way to like put the financial burden on you like he always says like he's like you told me like you'd retire me you told me like you would like i mean handle like handle all this he needs and now you're not He needs to grow up.

Speaker 3 And I'm trying to. Like, I mean, I'm almost out of debt.

Speaker 2 Your boyfriend has some work he needs to do.

Speaker 2 In my humble opinion.

Speaker 3 You don't. At what age are you just kind of stuck?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know.
People can change, but he has to be willing to change.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, if he's not willing to do the work, if he's not willing to go to therapy, certainly if he's not willing to go to couples therapy, you're eventually going to have to ask yourself, is he willing to change?

Speaker 2 Because he's not going to change for you.

Speaker 2 You know, he has to change for himself. He has to want to do this.
Yeah, he may force your hand.

Speaker 2 And you're going to have, and that's something you're going to have to actually ask yourself because, again,

Speaker 2 love is not enough.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I feel like I've just been trying to meet him where he's at sure but if if where he's at is like still making me miserable doing it though sure yeah because where where he's at sounds like kind of like an emotional teenager yeah it's like very volatile like i don't know what i'm gonna get like when i walk through the door if he's gonna be like sweet happy in great mood and totally fine about our decisions and what's going on or if something went wrong and so now

Speaker 3 He's upset and suddenly everything that I thought he said he was okay about two days ago is suddenly just brought back up. And that's my problems and I'm the reason why we're in this mess.

Speaker 3 That's crazy.

Speaker 2 You can't do that.

Speaker 3 It's exhausting.

Speaker 2 You're only 29. So if I were in your position, I would give the next six to 12 months some real effort on getting this relationship back on track.

Speaker 2 and trying to encourage the both of you to get the help that the two of you need in this relationship and hope that he's willing to work with you.

Speaker 2 And if he continues to be resistant, I think you really need to seriously consider whether this is your person.

Speaker 3 Do I like bring back up everything?

Speaker 3 Like, I don't know if I should be like, if it's like bad or triggering if I'm like, well, you know, like, because last time we broke up, we got Max, he's like, he felt blindsided.

Speaker 3 He felt like I didn't tell him what was going to happen. So I'm like, do I let him know, like, hey, I really feel like we need to get this or like we might be back where I have to meet again?

Speaker 2 No, don't do that. That'll trigger him.
Like, it should be, what I'm saying is it should be enough for you to go to him and say, again, listen, babe, I really love you.

Speaker 2 And I, like, I hope you know this, but I'm just going to say it. A life with you is something I desire.

Speaker 2 I plan on marrying you.

Speaker 2 I want to have kids with you, you know, but we are often disconnected. And right now, we're having a big,

Speaker 2 we're not on the same page when it comes to the finances in the house. I'd like to us do couples therapy because that can help us work through our conflict better.

Speaker 2 It can teach us tools to be more connected. And I want to feel more connected to you.
And I would like us to do that. That's all you say.
And that should be enough for him to say, you know what?

Speaker 2 Sure, I'm willing. You know, I'm not really a fan of therapy.
I don't believe it. But like, yeah, like,

Speaker 2 what's the harm in trying? Because, yeah,

Speaker 2 I don't want to fight with you either. And I want us to be on the same page.

Speaker 2 And when if he tries to bring up like the fight, if he tries to bring up the house, be like, listen, I don't want to relitigate this with you.

Speaker 2 We've done this a hundred times. Can we just agree that we're not agreeing on this right now?

Speaker 2 I think we need someone to help us work through this because we haven't been able to work through this on our own. And what I care about is us.
And I care about being stronger together.

Speaker 2 And again, that should be enough. And if he keeps being resistant, then you're going to finally have to ask yourself some tough questions because you're right.

Speaker 2 making idle threats and like that's only going to trigger him and it's not going to do any good and you don't he doesn't deserve a heads up people are blindsided if you come if you eventually have to break up with this guy it's not clearly not because you want to and he's going to be sad and he's going to be mad and he's going to throw a fit and he's going to hate you but like you know that's life I don't you know it's like you know it's not your

Speaker 2 it's not your responsibility to emotionally take care of this guy, especially if you decide to leave this relationship.

Speaker 2 And if you do want to have kids with this guy, the last thing you need is kids and a husband who's also emotionally a child.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I feel like that's what I'm scared of because it feels like I have to emotionally regulate him at all times.

Speaker 2 And at some point, you might you have to communicate that to him. And if he has a hard time hearing that, then that's part of the problem.

Speaker 3 Well, and I have brought it like when we broke up, I like brought that up, like that being the main thing. So like I thought he had heard me on it, but I feel like a lot of things were

Speaker 3 said that weren't really how he felt.

Speaker 2 Sure. Well, yeah, when people want to get back together, they'll say anything.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I feel like it's that's, I feel like I'm also kind of like not wanting to put myself, especially just getting out of a bad financial situation.

Speaker 3 Like, if I'm not, like, I guess I'm not feeling super secure.

Speaker 3 Like, I love him and I like see a future with him, but I'm based on what's going on and like the path we're going, it's like, do I want to put buy?

Speaker 3 Because he, like, of course, he wants like a $600,000 house. So I'm like, do I want to like

Speaker 3 place $600,000 on this relationship right now?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 With me on the mortgage, but him also on the title.

Speaker 2 If you buy the house, he should have nothing to do with it. And if that emotionally triggers him, then he needs to make different life choices.
I don't,

Speaker 2 it's just, it's that simple.

Speaker 2 And if he can't handle that, yeah, I mean, I think you need to take a real pause and ask yourself some tough questions because what I'm I'm hearing from you is you don't believe he's capable of making the changes I'm hoping that he can make with you guys.

Speaker 2 And if that's the case, then, you know, get out while you can. You're only 29.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I want him to make it. And I think he has,

Speaker 3 he cares enough. Like,

Speaker 3 he loves me enough. I just want to.

Speaker 2 I mean, all you can do is try. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're going to have to find out whether he's willing to do it.
So.

Speaker 3 I know. I feel like that's what the scary part is

Speaker 3 getting the answers sometimes.

Speaker 2 I know. But if it, listen, if it doesn't work out the way you want, you'll get through it.
You're going to learn from shit.

Speaker 2 So if this isn't the guy that you end up with, the next relationship you get in, you know, make sure, you know,

Speaker 3 if I can handle two failed engagements, you'll live.

Speaker 2 I've handled, I've handled them.

Speaker 2 No one gives a shit. It's fine.
And you're not engaged right now. Don't, so don't get, you know.
No.

Speaker 2 So do I hold that off?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think right now you guys have a lot of work to do.

Speaker 2 And if he's not willing to get into couples therapy, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't make any big decisions.
If this is a guy who clearly is emotionally unpredictable, which emotionally unpredictable,

Speaker 2 people make you feel unsafe. They just do.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's stressful.

Speaker 3 It's anxiety and eggshells.

Speaker 2 And if that's who he is, then he needs to do some work before you do anything. And if he can't handle that truth, then, I mean,

Speaker 2 he's really giving you nothing to work with.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Other than he loves me.

Speaker 2 That's not enough. Because love, what do they say? Love is patient.
Love is kind. Love is empathetic.
Love doesn't say, well, it's your job to do this and it's your responsibility to do this.

Speaker 2 And if you did this for me, I would be better. Love isn't putting the entire burden on your partner.
Love is

Speaker 2 asking yourself, how can I better take care of my partner? I'm hearing a little bit of that from you. I'm hearing none of that from him.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure he does things for you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in this particular department, he he can't see the forest through the trees yeah

Speaker 2 just like one track minded on i feel like the house the kids the marriage and like i feel like it's like okay then we're all good if we have that no yeah no he would be your relationship would be the first in the history of relationships and i'm guessing it won't be yeah like moving in together buying a house together doesn't solve problems it just creates more stress if there's already conflict it creates what is already whatever conflict is already there it will magnify that conflict tenfold, hundredfold.

Speaker 3 I'm not ready for that. I already can't

Speaker 3 handle that in a full-time job right now.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 all right. Well, keep us updated.
I'd love to know what happens, but you got to ask, I think you got to ask yourself some tough questions.

Speaker 2 But, you know, listen, see if he's willing to do a couple's therapy. But if he stonewalls you there,

Speaker 2 I don't know how much will help.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 2 All right. All right.
Bye-bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 4 I'm doing good. How are you?

Speaker 2 I'm great. What's your name?

Speaker 4 My name is Megan. I'm 30 years old.

Speaker 2 How can I help, Megan?

Speaker 4 So I'm trying to figure out how to forgive an absentee father after four plus years.

Speaker 2 Okay. Tell me more.

Speaker 4 So short backstory of my life. My parents divorced whenever I was a year old.
My father was pretty much in and out of my life my entire life.

Speaker 4 It was to the point to where I didn't even really want to spend time with him. So my mom kind of left that to my discretion.
If I didn't want to see him, obviously she could not make me.

Speaker 4 Even as I got older, he didn't really much make an effort to see me or talk to me or anything. Fast forward to my adult life.
I even tried to take him out for Father's Day one year and he told me no.

Speaker 4 I ended up marrying a military man. So anyone knows about military relationships, they do move very fast.
So, I met my now husband in 2020.

Speaker 4 We got married after probably about five or six months of dating. I had not heard from my father any that year.

Speaker 4 We moved out of state across the country, and I don't even think my father knew that I moved. And then, a year after us being there,

Speaker 4 I got pregnant with our son. He is now two and a half years old.
After I got pregnant, I ended up blocking. My father and his wife have a joint Facebook account.

Speaker 4 I blocked that Facebook account because in my mind, I was like, if he did not make an effort for my whole life, I didn't really want him to know that I was starting a family of my own.

Speaker 4 I kind of feel like that's a privilege. So fast forward the whole three years, we were in that state.
Did not obviously hear anything from him. We've now been in our current state for a year now.

Speaker 4 And probably about two months ago, my aunt, so his sister, found me on Facebook, sent me a friend request.

Speaker 4 At first, I declined it because I have not spoken to her since I was probably about 16 years old. I gave her a chance to reach out to me.
She never did, so I ended up messaging her.

Speaker 4 We kind of conversed for a day or two. She kind of gave the same excuse as, you know, life gets in the way.

Speaker 4 Always wondered about you, you know, never did anything about it. And then she asked me, could she give my father my phone number?

Speaker 4 I hesitated, but gave it to him. He called me like a couple days later.
He

Speaker 4 gave a lot of excuses with his phone call, kind of the same way that she did, saying,

Speaker 4 life gets in the way, always wondered about you.

Speaker 4 I know where you were living for three years. I know that you're married and I know that you have a son.

Speaker 4 And I found out that he actually had pictures on his phone of me while I was pregnant and of my son, which was a hard pill to swallow because I felt very violated.

Speaker 4 I had blocked his Facebook page for a reason, you know. And he kind of kept saying how

Speaker 4 he came very close to calling my job to reach out to me. And obviously, he never did it.
Like I said, the phone call was filled with just a bunch of excuses.

Speaker 4 So now I'm in the state of: do I try to work with him to forgive him or do I protect my current family that I have now? Because now we just found out that I'm pregnant with our second kid.

Speaker 4 And do I let him kind of start fresh in a way or do I protect my family?

Speaker 2 When you say protect, how are you protecting your family from him?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 like I said, obviously. He wasn't really a father to me my whole life.

Speaker 4 And I feel like knowing my son and my future kid is a privilege. I have the fear of him doing the same thing that he did

Speaker 4 to my kids that he did to me.

Speaker 2 And that would be what, just not being around?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 Because the way I see it, my son is in no shortcomings of love. He has us.
He has my mom and he has my in-laws.

Speaker 2 Okay. What I'm hearing from you, and just

Speaker 2 my humble opinion, I'm hearing hearing a lot of hurt from on your end, obviously, justifiably so,

Speaker 2 a lot of pain. And I think that pain is coming out.
And I think, you know, I'm sure you've heard the phrase, hurt people, hurt people, right?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 And when you say, you know, protect or when you say,

Speaker 2 you know, I think, you know, having access to pictures of my kids and my family is a privilege.

Speaker 2 And what I'm kind of hearing from you is that that's a way of punishing your dad for not being the dad he should have been, which

Speaker 2 is totally understandable, more than justified. You have every right to do that.
You know, no one's going to blame you for it.

Speaker 2 But if your goal is to actually consider reconciliation, you know, you said it yourself. Your kids have plenty of love to go around.

Speaker 2 They're going to be okay. They have a support system.
Also, grandparents sometimes get old.

Speaker 2 And if people are lucky enough to know their grandparents, sadly, most of them, unless there's real tragedy for the kids, everyone has to experience loss of a grandparent, right?

Speaker 2 My grandfather wasn't really, you know, my dad's dad, he cheated on my grandma, moved to Florida. I don't know.
I have like three or four memories of him, right? We weren't really that close.

Speaker 2 I was okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, once, you know, I remember one time he took us to the zoo.
I was like six or seven. The one time he went to his apartment,

Speaker 2 he was definitely a guy I didn't know much of, right?

Speaker 2 He ended up passing when I was in high school, but like, I really didn't know the guy, you know, but that did not affect me one bit, you know, again, because my parent, I was very much loved by my parents.

Speaker 2 Most importantly, my grandmothers were obviously in our life. I was close with my grandmothers.
Sadly, my other grandfather passed when I was like in the fourth grade.

Speaker 2 But unless there's something you're specifically protecting him from, like abandonment, I think they're going to be okay. Like

Speaker 2 they're grandparents. Grandparents, you know, I mean, some families, maybe grandma and grandpa are like a second mom and dad, and maybe they're living in the family.

Speaker 2 And yeah, that might be traumatic of one day, like one of those parents just up and left. But again, like grandparents also do get old and some, you know, often eventually pass away.

Speaker 2 So like, I don't know how much protecting is required, you know, from grandpa with what you're describing me, right? Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 I feel like I also have a negative light for my dad, aside from him being very absent. The last time I saw him in person,

Speaker 4 I had a different job. I was like sexually harassed at work and I kind of like briefly told him about it

Speaker 4 and he laughed. And in my mind, I was like, I'm your only child.

Speaker 4 And on top of that, I am a female. And for me to tell you about that and you laugh,

Speaker 4 I feel like that just painted him in a different light. So I don't know if I'm holding on to that as well.

Speaker 2 Oh, you mean that would be understandable? I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm sorry he handled it that way. There's no excuse for it.

Speaker 2 You know, Nellie's not an ass Nick, but on reality recap, from time to time, it gets brought up, especially or on GD where, you know, our guests will open about their parenting.

Speaker 2 She has an amazing relationship with her mom, not so much with her dad.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 And as Nellie has described, she has come to accept, along with her siblings, that he just doesn't really know how to be a dad. He just doesn't have that dad bone in his body.

Speaker 2 And he often says off-putting things

Speaker 2 and things that you would never think that your dad would say. It's usually out of awkwardness or him just being fucking weird or whatever the fuck.

Speaker 2 This is not in any way to justify how your dad handled that situation.

Speaker 2 I think if you decide to allow your dad to be in your life in any capacity, you're going to have to accept certain truths about your dad. You're going to have to limit your expectations.

Speaker 2 Because what I'm hearing from you right now is, and I think it's very understandable and very normal, is

Speaker 2 you're hurt that your dad wasn't there. You're hurt that your dad failed you in many ways.
I'm sure there's a long list. And you want your dad to be a good fucking dad.

Speaker 2 You know, you want your dad to step up in ways you've probably seen your friend's dad step up. And, you know, so you have a certain expectation of wish of what you wish your dad would be.

Speaker 2 And your dad's not that person.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 And he probably will never be that person. And that sucks.
And you're going to have to accept that.

Speaker 2 And so the question is, can you accept that and still take whatever he can give, which is probably not much, but it's still something, you know, when it comes to family, in my opinion, is often better than nothing, unless it really is someone who really is hurting you, who really is putting you and your family at risk, you know, whether it's just, you know, in any capacity.

Speaker 2 And so like in the future, if you allow your dad back into your life, he's not the guy you go to for any problem. If he surprises you one day with a...

Speaker 2 you know, like if one day, you know, you allow your dad back in your life and

Speaker 2 things are, you know, civil and he just throws out some random advice that you're like wow that that was really helpful be surprised you know but like you know it really comes down to the acceptance you have to accept your dad for who he is and you're having a hard time doing that you're still hoping your dad could be someone he's not and so

Speaker 2 again you know you going to him for anything is like you're it's like you're wanting to give your every time something happens to you where you need a dad you're going to your dad and hoping he can finally be a dad.

Speaker 2 And then every time he shows you he can't be a dad, and then that hurts you, and that, and that's painful to hear.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and so I think if you want to have your dad in your life, you kind of have, you have to recalibrate your expectations of him.

Speaker 2 You kind of have to tell yourself, I don't know what his childhood was like. I don't know what happened to him, but this is clearly the best he can do.

Speaker 2 And so I'm going to take what I can get and have zero expectations. And, you know, at first, yeah, I would have my guard up.
You know, I would have very clear boundaries.

Speaker 2 And I would say, hey, listen, like, I'm open to this, but like, clearly, I'm reluctant about your ability to stay in our life. So, you know, I want to set some clear boundaries.

Speaker 2 And if you can show me that you can work within these boundaries, we can talk about, you know, the future and maybe. getting closer.

Speaker 2 But he has to demonstrate his ability to work within your boundaries. But, you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 And I, and I did tell him that during our very long, awkward phone call. I told him that since I am now a parent, I

Speaker 4 surely hope that nothing ever comes between me and my son to where

Speaker 4 I don't talk to him for several years. And in my mind, I cannot fathom anything that would keep me from wanting to speak to my son.
and my future child.

Speaker 4 And he was like, well, you know, it's not really like that. And I was like, but it is like like that.

Speaker 4 If you say you wanted to write me a letter and mail it to me, or you wanted to call my job, but you didn't do these things, how do I know you're not just saying that in the moment?

Speaker 4 And like I said, he just kept saying, well, it's not like that. And then I think I have been trying little by little to allow him just certain things.

Speaker 4 So he did ask for our address to send my son Christmas presents and he did.

Speaker 4 But he keeps bringing up, it's been a few weeks since I've talked to him, but he keeps bringing up like, you need to let me know when I can come visit you guys.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, whoa, pump the brakes a little bit. This does not need to be a huge

Speaker 4 thing of you're also seeing me for the first time in.

Speaker 4 five years at this point and you're meeting my husband and you're meeting my son. That is just a lot all at once.
And I don't think that he understands that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I guess all you can do is just keep reinforcing those boundaries and just say, hey,

Speaker 2 I appreciate you wanting to see me on some level. That does mean a lot, but I am not ready.
And I really need you to work on my pace,

Speaker 2 you know, and.

Speaker 4 All right. And I don't think that we haven't gotten too much into it.
But I've already talked to my husband about it and my mom.

Speaker 4 My mom's very much, she never bad mouthed my dad when she, you know, know, she very much could have. She always left it to me to make my own opinion of him.

Speaker 4 But I've talked to my husband about it and I've told him because we live probably about six hours from where he lives.

Speaker 4 And my mom's probably about the same distance, but my mom comes up pretty frequently to come help me out with my son whenever my husband is gone.

Speaker 4 But I've told my husband that I want it to be like two separate trips. I would like for him to come up and meet my husband one day and my husband can kind of assess the situation.

Speaker 4 And then another time, maybe we could meet halfway and him meet my son. But that just feels,

Speaker 4 it's already a kind of not a guilty feeling, but it is kind of hard to share your kid with people and then to have to reintroduce or introduce someone completely into your child's life.

Speaker 4 I think that's just a scary thought for me because I hear you. Obviously, my son is, my son is at the age now to where whenever I mention Nana or grandma or Gramps, he knows who I'm talking about.

Speaker 4 Yeah. You know, so I know.

Speaker 2 I would just caution you, and I know it's not your intention, but I would just caution you not to, I guess, I don't know of a better way to say it, but kind of use your kid as a way to express your frustrations towards your dad.

Speaker 2 I, like you said, your kid's well loved and taken care of. Your son's going to be okay, you know, because he has you and your husband and grandma and grandpa.

Speaker 2 A lot of people, when they call in, they're talking boyfriend and girlfriend stuff or situationships. And they're like, Should I block them?

Speaker 2 And I'm always like, If you want to block them to protect your peace, block them. But if you're going to block them to get a reaction and be petty, then I don't do that.

Speaker 2 And earlier, when you were talking about Facebook and blocking them, you blocked him and you said, well, I think it's a privilege.

Speaker 2 And kind of what I heard that is like, you're kind of trying, it was what I heard is you were almost trying to punish them and you didn't think they deserved the chance to see pictures.

Speaker 2 It wasn't really, you know, if your Facebook's public and if Joe Schmo can see pictures of your son, then why can't your dad? But you didn't think he deserved it. So you kind of wanted to punish him.

Speaker 2 I don't think that's very productive, you know, like I think you're, in a way, you're kind of using your son to hurt your dad, knowing that he wants, you know, because he doesn't deserve it.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying he does deserve it. And I'm not saying I don't understand.
I just don't think that's going to do you any good in the long run.

Speaker 2 And I think you really need to really think when you're triggered, like clearly your dad is triggering for you and totally understandably so. And when you're triggered, right, it's fight or flight.

Speaker 2 You want to react, you know, and you're in it. When it comes to your dad, I'm hearing fight, you know, you get triggered by your dad and you kind of want to fight back, you know?

Speaker 2 And I would caution you to be mindful not to do that.

Speaker 4 I, I, like I just don't know how to, how to move forward from this. Like, how do I begin to get, I guess, the forgiveness?

Speaker 4 My mom, I talked to to her about it she was like well i was very mad at your dad for a long time until i went to like a church meeting and the lady spoke on forgiveness and she was like after i left that meeting like a huge weight felt like lifted off of me because i realized that i needed to forgive your dad and i don't know what it's going to take for me to get to that point i don't even know how to begin to get to that point because I don't know.

Speaker 4 I just have a lot of questions.

Speaker 2 Forgiveness is not,

Speaker 2 your dad needs to do nothing. Right.
There's nothing he can or you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, I mean, maybe he can apologize, but like, I, you know, again, it will probably be riddled with excuses and justifications.

Speaker 2 Like, if you want to forgive your dad, part of it is just, it's, it's accept, it comes from acceptance. It is accepting that your dad would do better if he knew how.

Speaker 4 Right. And it's, it's even harder because my mom assumed that he would be a great dad because his dad was the same way that he is.

Speaker 4 So when my parents were married, my mom always saw the hurt from him and his sister because their dad didn't know how to be a dad.

Speaker 4 So it was kind of like an apple doesn't fall far from the tree situation. So he ended up being just like his dad.
And my dad actually said, I think I have a lot more in common with him than I.

Speaker 4 would like to think that I did. And I was like, yeah.

Speaker 2 That's probably a hard thing for him to realize. And I'm sure, listen, and part your ability to forgive will come from your ability to empathize.

Speaker 2 You were a victim of your childhood and you were a victim of your dad's upbringing. And that wasn't fair to you.
And sadly, nothing, you know, we can't change the past.

Speaker 2 And your dad will probably never be the dad you hoped he would be, you know, and that's what I mean. Like, so it's really just, it's forgiving.
and then resetting your expectations.

Speaker 2 Because right now, you have a lot of pain, you have a lot of anger and you're you're not in a place for forgiveness and then you still are wanting and hoping and expecting him to change course

Speaker 4 and it's like your subconscious brain is telling you until he shows you he can be the dad i always need him to be then him right i think for the last five years whenever someone brings it up to me i'm always quick to be like i don't care about it but then it's like whenever i get to thinking about it or something triggers me like you said, that's when I'm kind of like, well, maybe it is affecting me a little bit more than I think it would.

Speaker 4 And I think I only have felt this way since becoming a mom.

Speaker 4 Because like I said, in my mind, I just can't fathom the thought of never having a relationship with my kids. I don't care what happens.
And God forbid anything ever does happen.

Speaker 4 I'm sure I'm going to piss them off several times in their life. But in my mind, nothing will stop me from trying with my kids.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And like, that's, you know, and the best possible way, you know, maybe it's from your mom or whatever, but like, hopefully you, you know, like you said, you don't plan on continuing this toxic pattern that seemed to be something that was going on in your dad's side of the family.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 forgiving him is simply just, again, accepting who he is and just forgiving the past because there's nothing, you know, it's. It's not like, well, I needed him to do X, Y, or Z before I forgive them.

Speaker 2 Well, then you probably won't ever be able to forgive him because he's probably not going to be able to do x y or z right and your dad will probably continue to disappoint you you know nallie has

Speaker 2 you know an okay relationship with her dad and she has forgiven him and she accepts who he is but he still does things where she's just like what the

Speaker 4 you know so how how long or how do you think that it worked best for her to realize how to forgive her dad? What what do you think that she had to realize in order to forgive her dad? Just accepting

Speaker 2 who he was. Yeah.
That he just, as she puts it, like, he just doesn't have the dad bone. This is not in his nature.
Why?

Speaker 2 She didn't, you know, she didn't try to figure out why because his parents, incredible grandparents. Who knows what life was like when he was a kid or back then?

Speaker 2 Her experience with her grandparents has been nothing but lovely. Her dad's brother, excellent father.
So like she,

Speaker 2 you know, which was especially hard on her because it was like, well, what's the fucking problem?

Speaker 2 You know, like, everyone around you seem, you know, I got their great-grandparents, you know, your brother, my uncle, has been a better dad to me than you are.

Speaker 2 Like, and that was very hard for her to accept. You have to stop trying to understand the why and you just have to accept the what, you know, what is the situation.
Your dad's not a good dad.

Speaker 2 He's not.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 4 And my in-laws kind of say the same thing. My, my father-in-law doesn't have a relationship with his sister, not for lack of trying.

Speaker 4 She, he's left the door open for her many of times, but, you know, she continually fucks up. And my father-in-law just kind of says, well, all you can really do is give him the opportunity.

Speaker 4 If he fucks up again, cut him out.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or roll your eyes and create some space.
But like, you know, Natalie's position is this like, when he says off-putting things or, I don't know, gives her a t-shirt for Christmas that

Speaker 2 that's really bizarre. She doesn't say, you know what, fuck this guy.
I don't want anything to do with him. It's just more like, yeah, he is who he is.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 He still calls from time to time and check in in his own way.

Speaker 2 You know, he is not like when shit gets the fan for her, he's not the guy she goes to.

Speaker 2 She has me now. And when I'm, you know, if I'm not enough, she has her mom.
She has people. You have people.

Speaker 2 And like, I think sometimes when we want, especially when it comes to parents, and fortunately, I didn't have to deal with this.

Speaker 2 But for, you know, it's like you're still fighting that hope that your dad will be this person and you, you have to let go of that hope.

Speaker 4 I agree. I agree.
I think it's going to just take some time, little by little. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, I think I would just be mindful of the, when you feel triggered and when you feel pain, not to try to punish your dad.

Speaker 2 and not to use your kids as a way of punishing your dad, your kids are going to to be okay.

Speaker 2 So convincing yourself that you have to protect your kids from grandpa, what I'm hearing is you're kind of using your kids to punish your dad.

Speaker 2 And I just think that's causing you more hurt and pain than anything else.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I didn't think about it that way. And I don't think anyone else has told me that, but yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, sorry.

Speaker 2 That definitely sucks, but I think you're thinking of this the right way. I think you're trying to to do the right thing.
And lean on your husband, lean on your family, focus on what you do have.

Speaker 2 You know, count your blessings. And when it comes to your dad, take what you can get.

Speaker 4 Sounds good. I appreciate your help.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 3 Thank you. All right.
Bye-bye. Bye.