E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Good. My name's Megan.
I'm 29 years old, and I can't go over my best friend having an affair with our boss.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 How long have you been friends with this person? Did you meet them at work? I'm just curious.

Speaker 4 No, I met them in nursing school.

Speaker 2 All right. And you guys now work at the hospital together?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 And who's the boss?

Speaker 4 He's a surgeon.

Speaker 2 How'd you find out?

Speaker 4 I mean, I have eyes and so does everyone else. So she asked me after she officially told me and it was like, she asked me if it was obvious.
I'm like, yes, this is painful.

Speaker 4 But she's best friends also with his wife. So that was what everyone was like hanging their hat on.
Was like, well, she would never do that to his wife. She would never do that to his wife.

Speaker 2 And she admitted to you that she is doing it to her friend.

Speaker 4 Yep, at a bar one night.

Speaker 2 Is it still going on?

Speaker 4 I don't, she says it's not, but she's kind of cut me off since she told me because I was way less than impressed.

Speaker 2 Are you still working with her?

Speaker 4 I had surgery on my ankle at the end of October. So actually I'm off work until like the beginning of January.
And thank God for that because it was getting bad for a while.

Speaker 2 When you say she's your best friend, like are you, you said, but you also said she kind of has cut you off. Like is she in your life right now?

Speaker 4 We kind of have a trio of friends and

Speaker 4 the other friend doesn't know, but we, her grandma just died, the... the trio, the other trio, and we ended up going to her funeral together.
And it was very superficial conversation the whole time.

Speaker 4 And I mean,

Speaker 4 she was a very, very good friend until this all happened. And then it literally all came crashing down.

Speaker 2 What have you said to the friend?

Speaker 4 We went,

Speaker 4 we had one really good serious conversation about this. And I said, she cut me off because I was less than impressed, but then everyone else.

Speaker 2 What do you mean by less than impressed? Like, why would you even be impressed? And why do you think she was expecting you to be impressed?

Speaker 4 She was expecting me to be impressed.

Speaker 2 Why do you say that?

Speaker 4 I think she thought I was just ride or die and would always be there.

Speaker 2 Even if she was having an affair with her other friend's husband?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 Are you friends with this other friend?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And so how did you respond in that moment?

Speaker 4 The moment I found out.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, when you said, or when you had the serious conversation, I guess, what did you say? Like, how did you communicate your

Speaker 2 less than being impressed?

Speaker 4 I said that I was so hurt. I felt like my workplace was affected.

Speaker 4 I felt like she chose him over our friendship because she left me alone at a bar in a really sketchy area the night that I found out. She was like, I'm leaving with him.

Speaker 4 And they just left. So I've always been very hurt by that.

Speaker 4 Sorry, I feel like I'm so nervous. I'm not expressing myself well.

Speaker 2 No, you're all right. Don't be nervous.
Take a breath.

Speaker 2 There's nothing to be nervous about. Why are we nervous? We're not even, we're just

Speaker 2 talking.

Speaker 4 I'm the biggest fan ever, I guess.

Speaker 2 Don't worry, I'm a fan too.

Speaker 2 We're just having a conversation. We're just having a conversation.

Speaker 4 It's hard to because this is not what I was going to talk about.

Speaker 2 What did you want to talk about?

Speaker 4 Well, I was going to talk about my wife's addiction to social media, but then I was like, What if he asks me if I've told her I'm coming on here?

Speaker 4 And she works from home, so she's just upstairs, so she might be on lunch break at any moment. But,

Speaker 4 and um, I told her, I was like, I'm gonna go on Nick's podcast.

Speaker 4 Like, if you were gonna go on the toast, you would totally like, I would let you go on the toast, whatever you want to talk to them about, but like, you know, that's my thing.

Speaker 2 Wait, she likes the toast better than she likes us, she does.

Speaker 4 And I try to get her to listen and ask Nick all the time. I'm like,

Speaker 4 my tagline on the subject which she was so offended by and i probably shouldn't have told her the subject line i'm like i wonder if all the other callers tell she actually feels really bad about this and i think she wouldn't care if we actually did talk about this because i think more natural

Speaker 2 well one what do you want to talk about and two

Speaker 2 i don't want you to

Speaker 2 get in trouble yeah i don't i don't want you to well get in no no get in trouble i just don't want to betray your partner's trust i don't want you to betray your partner's trust you know and that's that's how she feels.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, is that an Ivy asshole for that? Like,

Speaker 4 because I said, is the tagline was, is she raw in her brain? Because she scrolls on social media constantly with housewives arguing in the background and I'm trying to read.

Speaker 2 And I'm just like, is she, well, I'm really concerned. Is she listening to Reality Recap? I think more than anything.
Yes. Okay.
Thank God.

Speaker 2 Thank God. Okay, good.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about your friend for a second. Then maybe we'll tap into your wife here.

Speaker 2 And I really, as far as your friend goes my you said something that i think you should be conscious of uh and this is regardless in any relationship that you have when you found out about your friend having an affair your response was about how that made you feel

Speaker 2 so you made it about your feelings now i get it and that makes sense what a lot of people in your position do but when you're like I can't believe you did this to me.

Speaker 2 I felt like you chose him over us. You left me late at night, yada, yada.

Speaker 2 These are all valid feelings that you have, but I think it's more productive to, you know, make it about her character and her choices and how it's affecting her and like the type of person she is demonstrating she is, you know, as opposed to you making it about you,

Speaker 2 you know, so then like, because you're not really critiquing her behavior. You're just more critiquing her friendship to you.

Speaker 2 And then if when you do that, that allows her to like focus on her needs because you're making it about your needs. You're just like, well, this hurts my feelings.
This affects me.

Speaker 2 This affects our friendship. And she, she could, if she wanted, she could have been like, well, I've just never really had a connection like this.
And I really need this right now. And I deserve this.

Speaker 2 And yada, yada. How can you not be happy for me? I finally, you know, found someone to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right.

Speaker 2 None of these conversations about like, do you realize like you're better than this?

Speaker 2 Like, do you not see how this behavior is is being very destructive to you know this other your your friend how could you do this to someone you call a close friend and if you can do that so cavalier to this close friend why should like why should i trust you with any type of serious you know information or you know why what why would you be a shoulder to lie on you know and it's challenging your friend to hold themselves to a higher standard so you're not making it about you As a friend, you can say, hey, listen, like, because that way you can say, this is really obvious, hard to hear.

Speaker 2 Obviously, you know, I love you. Obviously, like, I want to be there for you, but you're making choices that are very, very difficult for me to support.
And quite frankly, I don't support them.

Speaker 2 And I am just disappointed that you're not seeing how this is affecting other people. You know, and you're right.
I see this very common with a lot of friendships.

Speaker 2 I see it more common with friendships with women is that like some friendships aren't based off of of people want to have friends to keep their secrets. I see this a lot a lot with women.

Speaker 2 You know, it's just like they're, you know, I want to, I want to have my writer, you know, my part, my partner in crime, so to speak. I want my partner in crime.

Speaker 2 And that partner in crime is just that person who's willing to keep their secrets and support them and not and not judge them for their shitty behavior.

Speaker 2 So if that's the type of friend that she wants, then maybe you aren't friends. But you have to see if that's the type of person she is willing to be, right?

Speaker 2 So that way you have to have conversations, not about how it's affecting you personally. I mean, yeah, it is, but the bigger picture is her choices as a human being and as a friend to anyone.

Speaker 2 And her character is in question, you know, the type of person she is. And does she not have any empathy for his wife who's also her friend?

Speaker 2 And yeah, you need to point out that like, listen, I don't want to be a part of this. I can't be friends with someone like this.
I want to be your friend. I love you.
I want to support you.

Speaker 2 But if you're going to keep making these, you know, decisions, it's not okay. And I need to, and I don't want to see that you understand that.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 4 And I feel like

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 mostly focused on probably my feelings and self. But I remember one specific line.
She said, Are you judging me?

Speaker 4 I said, I'm just kind of judging you for being like a shady person when you're around him.

Speaker 2 You could just say, Yes. Yes.
Why? How could I not?

Speaker 2 The answer is, of course. You would.

Speaker 2 You know, you should be judging yourself. Like, are you okay with this? You know, like, who cares what, you know, like, but that's what you should ask her.
It's like, well,

Speaker 2 or the answer is, like, who cares what I think? What do you think about your behavior? Is this who you want to be? Like, you are,

Speaker 2 you're destroying this person's life. If, if he wants to leave his wife, then let him leave his wife.
If you want to give up this friendship for fine, but like, don't do it this way.

Speaker 2 You know, this is a stain on her resume.

Speaker 2 Whatever happens with with this guy, best case scenario, and maybe I don't even know if it's best case, but she marries him and she won't have to answer any other questions as far as, you know, I mean, her family, whatever.

Speaker 2 But if it doesn't, you know, going forward, let's say it just ends up being a fling and, you know, and whatever.

Speaker 2 She may lose a friendship. It could affect her job.
And then going forward for the rest of her life, anytime she has a conversation about have you ever cheated or been unfaithful, she either can lie

Speaker 2 or tell the truth and be judged for it. Neither of her great options, you know.

Speaker 2 And is this the type of

Speaker 2 person she wants to be? This could be a very big lie that she either holds on to and justifies. If she's able to justify that, who knows what else she's able to justify?

Speaker 4 Nail on the head.

Speaker 2 So you have to be willing to challenge her and not make it about how it's affecting you personally, you know, in the moment.

Speaker 2 And when you communicate it, the first words out of your mouth shouldn't be like, I can't believe you did this to me. Because, you know,

Speaker 2 that, that's not going to get her to empathize with the people around her. Then it's just going to be a competition of whose feelings are more valid between the two of you.

Speaker 2 And that's not what's really relevant here. 100%.

Speaker 2 Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I wouldn't go out of your way to reach out to this friend, but like the next

Speaker 2 opportunity you have, you know, let her know.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, again, depending on your comfort level, I mean, you know this friendship and how you guys communicate, but or maybe you do text and say, hey, I just been thinking about what happened and say that.

Speaker 2 It's just like, I just, I love you, I want to be there for you, but I, I was surprised to find out that you were doing this. I think you're better than this.

Speaker 2 And I think this is a mistake you're going to live to regret, regardless of what happens between you and him.

Speaker 2 Like this is a choice you're going to have to live with and you're going to have to come to grips of how it's destroying other people's lives. And I mean, she is.

Speaker 4 100 i mean there's a lot of kids involved lots of family vacations taken together it's yeah it's terrible so yeah i think you need to draw a hard line in the sand and i don't think you should keep her secret either and i think you should make that very clear to her her that was kind of the hardest thing about it was people were coming up to me because they knew we were best friends and they'd be they actually saw them leaving in the parking lot together and they'd come up to me and i would just worry myself so much about it stress out like keeping this secret.

Speaker 4 And finally, like with our serious conversation, I was like, I can't keep your secret anymore. And she didn't like that.
And then we don't really talk anymore. So, that's kind of

Speaker 4 this

Speaker 4 was a big conversation.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 4 but I've honestly listened to your podcast so much and have taken, I mean, like, I just quit caring, I guess. And I'm just like, if she doesn't care, I'm not going to care.
So, I don't know.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, I mean, I guess on other things instead of dwelling on missing that friendship. Cause I mean, we were tight.
We were thick as seeds.

Speaker 2 I still think

Speaker 2 you got to listen to what you're saying because

Speaker 2 you're still making it about your feelings, you know, which again is normal and I get it, but you have to fight that urge to immediately make it about your feelings.

Speaker 2 This is really about you not making it about how it's affecting you. This is about the choices she is making and how her choices are affecting other people.
And you do not want to participate in that.

Speaker 2 And are you willing to speak your piece and let her know how you feel about her choices? And again, as always, as I say, lead with love. Hey, I don't want,

Speaker 2 it makes me sad that you're doing this. It makes me sad that you're making these choices.
You're affecting other people's lives. And this lack of consideration for other people is scary behavior.

Speaker 2 Like you're, it's, I didn't think you were capable of this type of behavior. And that scares me.
People make mistakes, but like you need to recognize the mistake you're making and you need to stop it.

Speaker 2 And then you need to do the work and figure out why you were so willing to make this mistake.

Speaker 2 You know, and if you're willing to do that, I'm here to support you and be your friend because I believe, I want to believe deep down, this isn't who you really are.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why you're making these choices, but it's not okay. And I love you enough to be honest with you about how I feel about these choices.

Speaker 2 And if all you're looking for is a partner in crime and someone who's willing to keep your secrets so you don't feel judged, I'm not that person.

Speaker 2 Right. I said,

Speaker 4 if you're not going to care, I'm not going to care. And you're right.
That was about my feelings. I remembered it after you.

Speaker 2 There you go. Yeah.
That's what I'm saying. So it's not about you caring.
You're right. You care.
That's exactly what it was. You care.

Speaker 2 You should care. You should care about your friend's character.
You should care about

Speaker 2 your friend and what they're doing, not only to other people's lives, but to their own life. This is going to hurt her.
How? I'm not sure yet, but it will.

Speaker 2 And you have to, you have to be willing to, you know, to be there for your friend, not make it about your feelings. When she acts a certain way, you can say, well, that hurts me.

Speaker 2 But like, again, you do care and it's okay to care, but you can care and still set a boundary, right? And caring and setting a boundary is saying, hey, I love you.

Speaker 2 And I want to be there for you, but you can't continue to do this. And if you do continue to do this without trying to, you know, rectify the problem, then I, I can no longer support you.

Speaker 2 And when you're willing to make different choices, I'm here for you, but I am not going to be here to support this lie.

Speaker 4 I like that plan a lot. The,

Speaker 4 because you're right, I do care. And that's just a joke to say to myself, I don't care because it's,

Speaker 4 but I like caring is setting a boundary with. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So people, I don't know why people pretend not to care.
Like as if like not, you know, it's like, you know, when you really don't care, don't care. But if you care, it's like, yeah, I care.

Speaker 2 Of course I care. You're my friend and I care about your well-being.
And it makes me sad you're doing this.

Speaker 2 And if that hurts you to hear that, well, it should because that means you're not a sociopath.

Speaker 2 As far as your partner goes,

Speaker 2 do you want to talk about it? I don't want to not want to talk about it.

Speaker 4 Has this ever happened before where people reach out about their partner and they tell them and then their partner is like, no, you can't do that.

Speaker 2 I'm, I'm sure. I don't really.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Uh, but I think you should respect your partner.

Speaker 4 She'd love you for saying that. She's like, Maybe you should go on it.
I want to know what he's got to say. I'm like, he's not going to just side with me because I'm the caller.

Speaker 2 Well, why, why do you think?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 do you want to go there or not?

Speaker 5 Sure.

Speaker 2 How upset do you think your partner is going to be?

Speaker 4 We've talked a lot about this this morning. Honestly, I think she's most upset that she kept saying, I'm so sad that I took this opportunity away from you.
I know how much you love this podcast.

Speaker 4 And like, I honestly think she felt guilty more than anything.

Speaker 2 Because she told you you can't do it?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you're doing it. Does she know you're on the call here right now?

Speaker 4 I told her to disconnect Bluetooth and that you guys said that I could have this alternative question that she's like, you could talk about whatever you want to talk about.

Speaker 4 I'm like, don't say that if you don't mean it.

Speaker 2 Oh, well, she did say that. Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. So you think she's on, okay, she, you think she's on too much on the internet?

Speaker 4 Yes. She works from home.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 she works

Speaker 4 like a financial company and talks on the phone about like advising people about retirement. And

Speaker 4 she just scrolls. And I've actually like, since I'm off work, it's just hard to be, I'm not on weight bearing for two months, but I'm like on crutches.

Speaker 4 And it's just like depressing to get on social media and see people doing fun things and blah, blah, blah, and comparing myself to whatever.

Speaker 4 So I just got off and I started choosing to do other things because I kind of felt myself going down this like, not depressive thing, but just like dark place.

Speaker 4 And so then we pulled into Target one night and she, she was mad because I said,

Speaker 4 I want to talk to you about something. And she thought the Target parking lot was not the place to talk about this.

Speaker 4 But I said, like, I think.

Speaker 2 Where you're talking about it.

Speaker 4 I said, I think like being on social media has been really good for me. Like, and she's just like, I love that for you, but I don't see what that would do for me.

Speaker 4 I'm like, I just feel like we could focus more on like each other. Like, we're hanging out and you're like, just scrolling.
And I'm like, I don't know. So that ended up being a fight.

Speaker 4 But then yesterday after. I heard back from you guys and said, yep, we're doing this.
So I told her.

Speaker 4 I was like, I don't want her to ask me if I told you and have me say, No, I didn't tell you because we're literally going to be in the same house. I'm on stretches.

Speaker 4 I'm not going to go find a spot talk to Nick.

Speaker 4 And she was like, Oh my gosh, that's so awesome! Blah, blah, blah. And then last night, she was like kind of angry, cleaning, I could tell.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, Are you okay?

Speaker 4 And she's like,

Speaker 4 No, I thought about it more. I'm really annoyed about the podcast.
And just

Speaker 4 I had her to laugh because I kept saying, You sound like Lisa Barlow talking about the podcast.

Speaker 2 The podcast, the podcast.

Speaker 2 I think a lot of your problems come with your delivery.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I could see that.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, and welcome to having a relationship, you know. I think your partner is right.
Your wife's right, right?

Speaker 2 Like, on some levels, like, good for you for doing this thing you thought would benefit you. You can't expect.
your wife to,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 also do it. I literally this morning was like, hey, Nally, I'm thinking of doing an 86-hour water cleanse.
You want to do it with me? And she's like, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 You know, and imagine if I was like, well, why not? Like, it's going to like add five years to my life and blah, blah, blah. And like, cleanse my liver.
And you don't want to cleanse your liver?

Speaker 2 You know, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I could have made a fight about it if I wanted to.
You know, like

Speaker 2 there's a version of me, like 20, you know, three-year-old me would have found a way to have been like, whoa, whoa, you don't want to take care of yourself?

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Or my intentions are are good.

Speaker 2 I want to do something with my wife.

Speaker 2 I want to do something that benefits us and maybe improves our mental health and our physical health and blah, blah, blah. But like, I can't expect her to do it just because I want to do it.
Right.

Speaker 2 So there's an analogy there. On the flip side, you know, obviously social media is not the same.
Getting off of social media is not the same as doing an 86-hour water cleanse.

Speaker 2 I think all of us could stand to limit our social media a little bit.

Speaker 2 On the flip side, I think when you want to do things with your wife, stop making it about, again, your feelings versus her feelings.

Speaker 2 You approach these conversations with you versus me. I'm doing this, but you're doing that.
And what I'm doing is better than what you're doing. And I think you should stop doing that, right?

Speaker 2 Whatever it is you're talking about, whether it's social media.

Speaker 2 or eating cereal late at night or an 86-hour water cleanse, when you deliver it that way, it's going to say, I'm better than you and you're wrong and I'm right and you need to stop doing that.

Speaker 2 And anyone on the other side of that is going to feel judged and they're going to get defensive and they're going to be like, but, but, but you do that or,

Speaker 2 you know, and then it's like, but this, but this, but this, but this, but this. And then you're just competing over who's better.

Speaker 4 You've crushed it. I think we could do this, like if you, because

Speaker 4 I. think you can i mean if you want to talk about this i think you can teach me like a lot be on her side like but listen it's just about you gotta I think this it's just we and us

Speaker 2 this is on her side yeah but it's just it's it's about you and it's it's about using we and us language you could say hey listen babe obviously like you know I've been struggling that it has been beneficial for me but listen like we all could be off our phones less but when you say things like and you have to be careful about the language like it's rotting your brain it's like okay okay like leave me all right come on that's just such sounds so judgmental You know, it's just, and then if you were going to say things like, oh, you're always on your phone, which I'm on my phone a lot.

Speaker 2 I am. I'm on my phone way too much.
I am on my phone for work. There is that.
That is justifiable. I could definitely limit that.

Speaker 2 But when Nally's like, you're always on your phone, if I see on her phone, like, especially if we're watching a show together, it's our show and I'm on my phone. She'll call my ass out.

Speaker 2 Oh boy, when she's on her phone, I'm like, you're fucking, you're a fucking hypocrite.

Speaker 2 You know, like, so you better make sure you're off the phone a lot, you know, because if you're going to come at her, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 So like, instead of making it about a, you're doing this and I'm doing this and you should do what I'm doing because it's better than what you're doing, you're just like, hey, babe, like, listen, obviously I've been sitting off my phone a little bit, but like, could we try as a couple to whether it's you watch housewives, listen to a podcast, whatever, can we have moments where we both are off our phones and then staying together or connecting?

Speaker 2 You know, because if you're watching housewives together and you're choosing to stay off your phone, but she's on her phone,

Speaker 2 you feel like you're kind of alone in the room. And that's a valid feeling for you to have.
But if it's like, why are you on your phone?

Speaker 2 It's like, that's a little more like, you know, but anytime Natalie's like, hey, can we be off our phones? It's a lot easier for me to say yes. because we're doing it together.

Speaker 2 And it's not, I'm better than you. It's let's be a couple.

Speaker 2 And any, if you have two people who generally enjoy being a couple, it's much harder for that other person to say no to you saying, let's do something together. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You're,

Speaker 4 yeah, I think my delivery, I think, could.

Speaker 4 No one's ever told me that, actually. And I go to therapy.
So I love that you told me that.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I'm here to help.

Speaker 2 Most of our problems when it comes with friendships or relationships is how we communicate our frustrations nothing that you're feeling is invalid it's just how you're delivering that information and that information is not being received in the manner in which you want it's kind of like you're speaking greek she's understanding it in spanish you know and but she understands a little bit of greek you know so she's hearing some of it but what she's hearing is not how you intend it to and then so there's a lot of miscommunication type of thing and so it's yeah you just have to focus on before you,

Speaker 2 knowing that you have a habit of making it about your feelings.

Speaker 2 And when we do that, it's like anytime we center our feelings as the conflict, then it make, again, it puts the other person in a position of

Speaker 2 being defensive, kind of subconsciously invalidates their feelings. So it's like, well, I want to do that.
You know, you described your wife's job.

Speaker 2 I'm guessing on some level, she just wants to like turn off her brain and go online and read stupid fucking shit and not think about numbers and financial problems and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And she doesn't want her wife, you, nagging at her while she wants to shut off her brain.

Speaker 4 Nick, that's exactly what she was hoping you were going to say, like to the T. She was like, he's going to be like, yeah, she deserves a break.
She deserves to let her brain rot for a little while.

Speaker 2 Of course she does.

Speaker 2 But you're not going to be so happy. But sure.
But like, this is not about you, her being right either and you being wrong. It's just about how you're delivering it.

Speaker 2 Because while yes, she has the right to veg out, you have the right to say, hey, babe, like go do your thing. When you get done with work, go, you know, go veg out for an hour.

Speaker 2 But when we do something together, whether it's take a walk, whether it's have dinner, whether it's watch our shows, could we do it together off our phones?

Speaker 2 Because it doesn't feel like we're doing anything together when one of us or both of us are on our phones.

Speaker 2 And when you say it about the two of you and you use we and us language, it's way more received. And it's about doing it together.

Speaker 2 So you two are, I think you guys like to compete a little bit more than you realize.

Speaker 2 And you guys, you both have to acknowledge that and you both have to have a commitment about being on the same page and doing things as a team. And how can you help each other out?

Speaker 2 Your partner, your wife, should be interested in helping you since you've had surgery, since you're a little, you know, kind of enabled for a temporary period of time.

Speaker 2 She should want, you should say, hey, I need your help. I'm feeling a little isolated.
I'm feeling a little alone. I feel more alone when you're on your phone.

Speaker 2 I still, I don't want you to stop you from having fun, but can we find a balance, you know, so that we can still do things together?

Speaker 2 And when she's doing her thing on her phone, then you have to have your thing and leave her alone.

Speaker 4 I think you crushed it.

Speaker 2 Well, thank you.

Speaker 4 You're welcome. I'm amazed.

Speaker 2 Well, it's unfortunate that your wife's going to have to wait, you know, a week or two to hear this episode.

Speaker 2 But you can let her know that, you know, hopefully this doesn't start a fight when you tell her that it got brought up.

Speaker 2 It won't. You know, maybe you could say, maybe when you get off the phone, walk up, you know, when she gets on her lunch to say, hey, I just want to.

Speaker 2 I want to apologize for how I delivered my frustrations. I would like us to work on being a team better.
And I need to work on how I communicate my frustrations to you.

Speaker 2 And I don't want you to not have your time. I just, you know, I want us to help each other out and be willing to listen to the other person and do things as a team.

Speaker 2 Some, you know, don't even get into it. Just say, you know, something, something like that.

Speaker 4 Thanks for setting me up for success.

Speaker 2 No problem.

Speaker 2 Was this helpful?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 You're amazing.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 4 So thank you so much. What are we going to do with your friend?

Speaker 4 Focus on

Speaker 4 what she's doing and the type of person she wants to be and not

Speaker 4 how she's affecting me, how she's affecting the other people, I guess, in it. Great.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then just very, you got to be firm, you know, you got to lead with love and set a boundary, you know, with her.

Speaker 2 And you got to enforce that boundary and let her know that like it breaks your heart too, because again, you believe in her. And then when it comes to your partner, we in us language.

Speaker 2 Also, don't make it about how it's affecting.

Speaker 2 When it comes to your partner it's how it how is this affecting us should be your first question right you know to yourself first question to have yeah not about you're making me feel a certain way when you lead like that it just makes the other person feel like they need to be defensive about that because it's like no one wants to be accused of hurting their partner feelings

Speaker 4 that's a good tool all right we're going to therapy tonight this is going to be the head topic so okay appreciate it all right uh well good luck uh Thanks for the call.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much. Please follow up.
We'd love a follow-up, maybe with your wife.

Speaker 4 She would love that, I think. All right.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much, Craig. I appreciate you.
All right. Bye-bye.

Speaker 4 Bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 5 Good. How are you? Good.
What's your name? My name is Alexis, and I'm 30 years old.

Speaker 2 How can we help, Alexis?

Speaker 5 I am being pressured into getting an abortion.

Speaker 5 And I kind of need help sifting through some of the emotional manipulation that's flying my way and figuring out how to deal with the baby daddy going forward.

Speaker 2 I will do my best.

Speaker 5 I've decided to not get an abortion, so I don't need help without Bert.

Speaker 2 So who is pressuring you to get an abortion?

Speaker 5 The dad and also his family, his mom specifically.

Speaker 2 And who is this person to you? Just someone you had sex with? Or are you in any kind of relationship with this person?

Speaker 5 We were seeing each other, not in an official relationship, but like exclusively sleeping with each other for a few months.

Speaker 5 have very fond feelings towards him.

Speaker 5 I think we had a really lovely connection,

Speaker 5 but he was not willing to be in a relationship and I wanted more. And so we kind of ended it.
And then

Speaker 5 like a couple of months later, I hooked up a couple of times. I was thinking maybe I can just separate my feelings from this.
And then I got pregnant.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, first of all, I just want to congratulate you for being pregnant.
If assuming it sounds like

Speaker 2 you're, how do you feel about it? I mean, I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't be congratulating you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I definitely wasn't planning to be pregnant at this stage of my life. I had very much other plans.

Speaker 5 Like what? But I like continuing my education overseas potentially.

Speaker 2 Again, we're not debating whether you should have or not have this baby. You've made this decision.
I'm glad that you have made whatever decision that's right for you and you feel good about it.

Speaker 2 That being said, like,

Speaker 2 I want you to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. You know, are you feeling like having this baby will no longer allow you to meet your professional dreams?

Speaker 5 I am not really worried about that. I mean, I think it would be lovely to have that kind of career.
I think it will still be possible for me in the future if I really committed to it.

Speaker 5 I think once I found out I was pregnant, like after processing it for a few weeks, it kind of just felt a lot less important to do that stuff right now than to have this baby.

Speaker 5 So I don't see it as like I'm giving up. all of my hopes and dreams to do this.
I kind of think it would be a detour for sure.

Speaker 5 The one thing is I did want to have a family and like with a loving partner and such.

Speaker 5 And this is kind of also not exactly how I pictured it, but I just don't see it as like I need to decide between all of that and having this baby.

Speaker 5 Like I think that it can all be possible eventually in an unconventional way.

Speaker 2 What is this person?

Speaker 2 What is he doing with his life right now? Other than just like he wasn't planning on this and he didn't want to be in a relationship.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 so he um kind of a major part of this is he has an illness that um is preventing him from doing a lot of the stuff that he wants to do and would also prevent him from being the kind of father that he would want to be right now i don't really want to go into the specifics of it but Basically, like he's trying to figure out where to live his life and how to live his life so that he can heal.

Speaker 5 So his immediate plan was to try to move somewhere different,

Speaker 5 which might help him and/or just be more exciting to him. He's kind of a flighty person.
He's always moved from place to place. And he's like avoided relationships.
How

Speaker 2 significant is his health concern in terms of like not to get all morbid, but like, is it, are we talking a fatal life condition, or is this a son thing he's just going to have to live with?

Speaker 2 And he has every reason to expect he can live a full life despite this thing he's dealing with?

Speaker 5 It is unclear.

Speaker 5 It doesn't seem to be like like fatal in the immediate term,

Speaker 5 but it definitely impedes a lot of what he's able to do on a daily basis.

Speaker 5 They're kind of still, it's a fairly new thing, and they're looking for solutions to it, but it's not really clear right now.

Speaker 2 Okay. And why can't he be the dad he wants to be?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I think it's a mixture of he can't and he doesn't want to be.

Speaker 5 To be honest, like he can't provide financially, which is okay.

Speaker 5 Like I have a job and I also have a strong support system who will be able to support me physically, financially, and emotionally if need be.

Speaker 5 And the other thing is he feels like raising a baby, like with all the exhaustion that goes with it and like the commitment will be a detriment to him.

Speaker 5 Like a part of this is extreme fatigue and he can get exhausted like very easily just from a conversation with someone.

Speaker 5 So he is worried about that aspect of it, even though I'm not asking him to like stay up nights and like take care of the crying baby. I'm kind of like, I mean,

Speaker 2 he has enough energy to have sex.

Speaker 5 That's a fair point. Yeah.

Speaker 5 He does.

Speaker 2 I mean, where does mom come into this equation where she feels like she has an opinion on what you should do with your body?

Speaker 5 So she came in kind of after I told him that I've made a decision and I would really like appreciate it if he would stop pressuring me so I can focus on reducing my stress. Yeah.

Speaker 5 She reached out to me the next day and asked if she could talk to me. And then we had like an hour and a half long conversation where she said some really diabolical stuff.

Speaker 5 Like what? That this is like extremely cruel and selfish. And I would just be, if I had this baby, I would just be like shattering so many lives, like pieces of broken glass.

Speaker 2 And that is a crazy thing to say.

Speaker 5 They also both have implied that I am at fault for getting myself pregnant. And of course, you know,

Speaker 2 of course. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And that I, it's really fucked up that I didn't sit him down and tell him that I probably wouldn't want to have an abortion if I got pregnant unexpectedly. Like.

Speaker 5 That is a huge thing that they both keep bringing up.

Speaker 2 Well, so wait, it was your fault because prior to having sex, you didn't sit him down and make it very clear that.

Speaker 5 But there is a chance I wouldn't want to have an abortion if I got pregnant.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to go ahead and guess that you probably,

Speaker 2 quite honestly, didn't give it much thought one way or the other, just like he probably didn't give it much thought. He wasn't.

Speaker 2 Did he ever ask before he took put the P in the V? Did he ever?

Speaker 2 Just before I just want to check in, if we get, you know, if you got pregnant, would you get an abortion?

Speaker 2 Did he query? Did he? He did not query at all.

Speaker 2 Did he even know your stance on abortion?

Speaker 5 No. Yeah.
No. He just assumed that he was given no thought.

Speaker 5 He assumed that anyone he sleeps with would automatically be willing to get an abortion.

Speaker 2 Obviously. Yeah.
Yeah. Of course.
Crazy.

Speaker 2 We can't control what other people do. I guess really my advice to you is feel good about the decision you're making.
It's your decision.

Speaker 2 From my own personal experience, granted, my experience is very different than your experience. I am in a relationship.
I do feel good about that relationship.

Speaker 2 It is a decision we made together that obviously helps, that obviously makes it easier. That aside, you know, having a baby has been an amazing blessing for both of us.

Speaker 2 And the fact that you do have the support system that you have and you feel you don't really aren't, you aren't giving any vibes of stress about like, oh, I don't know how I'm going to be able to do this.

Speaker 2 Like all you've communicated is that this is not necessarily the way you imagined it for yourself, but that's different than being literally worried about like, I don't think I could do this, which is a valid concern for some people who do get pregnant, right?

Speaker 2 But fortunately for you, you don't have that concern. So I think this is going to be an amazing blessing for you.
I think this is going to be the best experience of your life.

Speaker 2 And I think you're going to love this child.

Speaker 2 And as soon as you lay eyes on this child, and I don't know if you've been lucky enough to hear a heartbeat or anything like that, All these moments are going to be the best day of your life.

Speaker 2 It's going to be incredible. I don't doubt that.

Speaker 2 I don't know what it's like to be pregnant, but certainly Natalie had her peaks and valleys. There were definitely moments of like, I can't believe you fucking got me pregnant.
This is the worst.

Speaker 2 I'm never going to get pregnant again.

Speaker 2 Obviously, ever having a baby, it seems like, you know, the body and chemistry, and I don't know how nature all works, but it's changed Natalie's perspective in terms of like how she felt about it and how she felt great about being pregnant and yada yada.

Speaker 2 But that all being said, my experience has been incredible. And I understand, again, it's not identical to your experience, but I have very much a I get to mindset when it comes to being a dad.

Speaker 2 I get to do this. I get to raise my child.
I get to wake up in the middle of the night and take care of her. I get to.

Speaker 2 And all the get-tos I get to do aren't always glamorous, you know. But quite honestly,

Speaker 2 the beauty for me about being a parent is that the more difficult I get to's are more meaningful. You know what I'm saying? Does that make sense? You know, the

Speaker 2 more of a struggle it is, the more of a,

Speaker 2 you know, I don't know, I feel like I have more purpose. Now, granted, I have the benefit of like my biggest love language is acts of service.
And there is no greater gift.

Speaker 2 to someone who has whose love language is acts of service is to be a parent because you get to be of service to your child.

Speaker 2 And like, there's no greater feeling of love for someone whose love language is acts of service than to be a parent.

Speaker 2 I don't know where acts of service falls in line for you, but I would embrace that mentality of I get to. And I think it goes a long way.

Speaker 2 You know, as far as baby daddy and baby daddy mom, you've given them more than they deserve in terms of hearing them out, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 That was very gracious of you to give her 90 minutes of your time to have her tell tell you how self-centered you are for wanting to bring life into this world. And I think that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 It's your body. It's your choice.
And you have chosen to have this baby.

Speaker 2 And, you know, just like it would have been fucked up if you have chosen to not move forward with this pregnancy, it would have been fucked up for his mom to have an opinion about that.

Speaker 2 It would be just, you know what I'm saying? It's just as fucked up for her to have an opinion when you want to keep that, keep the baby.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I guess that's like part of what I'm struggling with a little bit because I keep being told by him that this is super selfish because he doesn't want it and his opinion should matter just as much as mine, since it's just as much his baby as it is mine.

Speaker 5 And he doesn't want his baby to like grow up without a father. And

Speaker 5 obviously, all his friends agree with him that it's super fucked up that I would do this. And

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 selfish people are very good at calling other people selfish. That here is a man who has his struggles and his struggles seem valid, but he is very much focused on his struggles.

Speaker 2 He is thinking of himself. You are literally thinking of another person, your child, and the life that you have the opportunity to bring into this world.
He can choose not to be a fatherless child.

Speaker 2 That is his choice. That doesn't make you selfish.
You know, and I don't want to get into the semantics of like, you know, this isn't a conversation about abortion and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 I can tell you from my personal experience that river has been a part of my life since I opened the drawer of our kitchen with a pregnancy test in it. You know, it's weird.

Speaker 2 As a father, I don't have that same connection with river that Natalie has. I didn't grow river in my body, you know, like Natalie and like you're about to do.
It's very different as a father.

Speaker 2 But it's, you know, and so when I found out Natalie was pregnant, like it is a weird thing to be like, all right, well,

Speaker 2 like, what's next?

Speaker 2 You go from this like crazy news to like, well all right so do you want to get dinner tonight because like nothing's really changed she doesn't feel anything nothing's different it's just like this huge thing that you know is happening but and you and it's just kind of like a i guess hurry up and wait but as things progress as you know you'll get more pregnant or is now they got more pregnant uh or when river was born my in my brain I think about like the first time I heard River's heartbeat all the time.

Speaker 2 I think about the moment River was born all the time.

Speaker 2 Every time there's a new day with River and she shows me something different and she just shows a different side of her personality, I always connect it to like when she entered into my life.

Speaker 2 And now that she's in my life, she's been in my life since I opened that drawer. You know, that's just my personal experience.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm not telling anyone how to feel about that, but like you're, you have life inside of you right now. And

Speaker 2 because you made the choice that you made, life will continue to grow, you know, and you're about to literally sacrifice your body and sacrifice some of your dreams to give this life.

Speaker 2 And I don't think anyone is in a position to call you selfish. Certainly not him.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to be a dad. That's his choice.
You know, he is calling you selfish because he thinks it's selfish of you for making him feel bad for not wanting to be a dad.

Speaker 2 So his accusation of calling you selfish is because you're not thinking about him. Yeah.
I think that's it. And because you're not thinking about him, that somehow arbitrarily makes you selfish.

Speaker 5 yeah. And for also inflicting the trauma on the child of not having a father in the throne, which listen, I,

Speaker 2 you know, Natalie had a dad, he was a bit of a deadbeat.

Speaker 2 Um, you know, there's a lot of daddy issues that Natalie is open about and talks about, but I'm guessing she would choose to exist rather than to not.

Speaker 2 Right, like we all have trauma,

Speaker 2 yeah. I mean, what do you,

Speaker 2 yeah, you know, I guess my opinion is you need to stop getting this person's opinion. I think you should say, listen, I've made a decision right now.
Like, you can call me what you want.

Speaker 2 I hope you change your mind. But if you don't, that is okay.
I don't need anything from you right now. I hope that as time goes on, you reflect and you make different choices.

Speaker 2 And if you don't want to be in this child's life as a father, that is a choice you're making. Don't put that on me.
I'm about to make some huge sacrifices for this child. And that's my choice.

Speaker 2 No one, you don't get to, you don't get to call me selfish for that and but honestly i'm actually telling you to say things that i don't think you even need to say because i don't think you need to waste energy getting into conflict with this person all you really need to say is i've heard you i understand your your point of view i don't agree with it i'm going to move forward i i don't expect anything from you If you change your mind, I'll always be here.

Speaker 2 And I hope you do. And honestly, I care about you.
I mean,

Speaker 2 I would love to explore a future with you. But, you know, I'm making this decision for me and for my child, and no one's going to do anything about that.

Speaker 2 And I'm not going to allow you to make me feel guilty. And I'm not going to allow you to add stress to my life because right now, my biggest priority, despite you thinking I'm selfish, is this child.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's kind of more or less what I, the last thing that I said to him about this matter. And he responded in a really like aggressive, not aggressive, but just like inflammatory way.

Speaker 5 um but i do feel i do strongly believe like he's like a very kind and compassionate person and sure he is time this will kind of

Speaker 2 fizzle out this anger hopefully i don't know i feel like maybe he'll be always resentful of me that's we we don't know you can certainly be hopeful i wouldn't make any of your decisions based off your hope but yeah

Speaker 5 So like going forward throughout, I would say this pregnancy and the beyond, how do you think I should approach him if he does decide to be in my life?

Speaker 5 I mean, there's a good chance he won't because the last thing also he said to me was, well, not the last thing, but he did very firmly say, like, if you get an abortion, I'll be there with you and support you, and I'll be by your side.

Speaker 5 And if you don't, then our friendship, quote unquote, is over because I can't support this.

Speaker 5 But if he does change his mind about that and he doesn't want to stay in my life, which I think he might,

Speaker 5 like, I would really love to cultivate a good relationship with him,

Speaker 5 like, without allowing him to guilt me about this stuff.

Speaker 2 How old is this person?

Speaker 5 33.

Speaker 2 I think you're just going to have to let it play out. You know, because what you're describing is someone who's just convinced himself he can't be a father.

Speaker 2 And he is seeing it as can't and not, he doesn't want to. But that's just all in his head.
Right. I can't speak for his mom and I really don't give a fuck about her.

Speaker 2 And, you know, she's just thinking thinking of her son, which I guess parents will do.

Speaker 2 And yeah, he is the father, but he doesn't have the right to tell you to not have this baby if you want this baby.

Speaker 2 I know it's a complicated subject because I don't, it's a, yeah, it's, again, it's your body. I don't know.
You know, it's just like what,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 if he, if he was the one getting pregnant, he would, he would feel differently, I'm guessing. But he's not.
So I don't know what to say, you know, to that.

Speaker 2 But as far as what you hope for him, I guess, is because that's what your biggest question is, is,

Speaker 2 as I always kind of say, lead with love. As much as you can,

Speaker 2 you try to empathize with him without admitting any wrongdoing on your part because you're not doing anything wrong. You know, I understand you're scared.
I understand this is not ideal for you.

Speaker 2 I understand this is not something either of us planned. I am sorry I'm making a decision that you don't agree with, but I do care about you.

Speaker 2 I do, I don't know, you know, I don't know if you love him or not, however you feel about him, be honest about it. And I think we could have a great future together.
And it's a matter of perspective.

Speaker 2 This could be the best thing of his life. Again, like, I am someone,

Speaker 2 my situation is very different than yours, right?

Speaker 2 But I'm also someone who's like, I've had a very cool life. I really have.
It's not how I planned, but like, I didn't have a kid into my 40s, right?

Speaker 2 And as a result, I have been able to be incredibly selfish.

Speaker 2 And And as a result of having the ability to be selfish, because I really had no one else to worry about but myself, despite me wishing I did,

Speaker 2 I was able to do a bunch of fun things and crazy things and set myself up for the future, which is great. But nothing has been more meaningful than being a dad, you know?

Speaker 2 And it just gives incredible meaning and purpose to someone's life who's maybe looking for that.

Speaker 2 And maybe it could give him that as well. And so I think you just have to leave the door open, so to speak, and allow him to vent and be this angry person and not take it personally.

Speaker 2 Because if you choose to empathize with his plight, then you can empathize with the fact that he is scared. He is worried.
This is not ideal.

Speaker 2 And a lot of the stuff he is saying right now is coming from a place of fear. So I'm going to choose not to allow it to affect me or hurt me or judge him for it because he's scared.

Speaker 2 And then you just kind of leave the door open in your mind for the possibility that he might come around.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's hard to find the balance of like, he says these things to me and then I feel like I have to defend myself a little bit. And then that like really stresses me out.
Sure.

Speaker 5 It's hard to draw the line between like defending myself and not responding at all.

Speaker 2 Well, you have to remind yourself that you don't need to defend yourself at all.

Speaker 2 And if you say, I am sorry, it's it's one of those not real apologies. It's a i'm sorry you feel this way.
Yeah. You know, but you're not sorry for the choice you're making.

Speaker 2 And you need to make that clear because it is your choice. And you wish your kid would have a present father.

Speaker 2 And if you don't want, and it's his choice if he doesn't want to be that, but your child, you're going to make sure that your child is going to be okay, despite maybe potentially having the trauma of having a father who didn't want them to exist.

Speaker 2 You know? You really need to try to say, not fight fire with fire.

Speaker 2 I mean, as much as you can to not throw stones and to not throw shade and to not make him feel guilty, to say, hey, I hope you change your mind. I care about you.

Speaker 2 I want you in my life and I want you in my child's life, but that is your choice. And if and ever you are ready and you feel differently, let me know.
But

Speaker 2 I'm fully committed to doing this. No one's going to change my mind.
And you need to stop

Speaker 2 having anyone, including you, reach out to do so.

Speaker 2 I don't want to have to block you.

Speaker 5 Thankfully, there's only like a week left where he can even keep trying trying to convince me. So it'll be too late after that.
So that'll probably change the dynamic a little bit.

Speaker 5 But yeah, that sounds like a plan.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

Speaker 2 I know it's not ideal, but just focus on the positive. There's so many positives here, and you really need to focus on that.
Focus on the fact that you feel really good about your support system.

Speaker 2 You feel good about your financial situation. you know, the village will help you, so to speak, raise this child.
And hopefully, he comes around.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 All right. Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 All right. Appreciate that.
Congratulations.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, let us know.
I mean, definitely would love a follow-up as obviously as this story unfolds.

Speaker 2 But I'll keep you posted.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Try to lead with love.

Speaker 2 Try not to judge him and give him the grace to be mad because he's scared, but set very healthy and very rigid boundaries and do not feel guilty at all for enforcing those boundaries.

Speaker 2 The only two people that you need to care about for the next nine months are you and your child.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 5 Cool.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.
Congratulations.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 5 Thanks so much. All right.
Bye-bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 7 Good.

Speaker 2 What's your name?

Speaker 7 My name is Sarah. I am 28 years old, and my husband's brother needs an intervention with his addiction.
So I'm just looking for help with that.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well,

Speaker 2 full disclosure, I'm not an expert when it comes to addiction, and I don't know much about interventions or how to start them.

Speaker 2 So I don't know how helpful I'm going to be when it comes to, like, all right, these are the five things you need to do. With that being said, like, how can I be helpful?

Speaker 7 So I'm more just looking for help, I guess, knowing my place. So I was just married like a couple of months ago.
Okay.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 this problem with his brother has been a problem. It was a concern of ours for our wedding as well.
A little backstory.

Speaker 7 I previously, before my husband got out of a relationship with someone who had an addiction to alcohol, it was someone that I thought I was going to marry. So I've kind of dealt with this before.

Speaker 7 However, it's a little bit different

Speaker 7 just because this is not technically someone that's in my family.

Speaker 7 So it's, I'm like, I don't know how to navigate the situation. My husband has asked me for help.

Speaker 7 He obviously knows my background.

Speaker 7 I'm having a little bit of a hard time because I feel like a lot of his family enables the situation and I almost feel like I don't really have a place to say something. Okay.

Speaker 2 And how much have you communicated that with your husband?

Speaker 7 I've just told him that like it's difficult because I know a lot of the times with addiction, you can't really help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Sure.

Speaker 7 I haven't really told him, though, that, like, I feel like I don't really have a place to protect.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, you need to do that, right? So, my biggest concern for you is, you know, you just got married.
I want you to protect your marriage, right?

Speaker 2 And, like, as you know, his brother obviously has this problem, but you two only have so much control over your brother's choices in life. And when I say so much, it's probably very little.

Speaker 2 So I'm glad that your husband's coming to you and asking for help. And I think this, the message you need to convey with your husband is one, thank you for asking me for help.

Speaker 2 I'm really glad that you trust my advice and that you come to me. And that means a lot to me.
So thank you. One.

Speaker 2 Two, like no matter what happens, let's just promise we're going to get through this together.

Speaker 2 I want to be as supportive to you as your wife, you know, knowing that this must be very difficult, knowing your brother's struggling.

Speaker 2 And like, let's just be a team and have each other's backs no matter what, two, right? Three is communicate. It says like, listen, I want to help, but obviously, you know, we just got married.

Speaker 2 I'm a little nervous about overstepping what my place is. I obviously have background here, but like your husband can't read your mind, right?

Speaker 2 And he's there to love, support, help you out, have your back, especially when it comes to his family. And you're right.

Speaker 2 Your concerns are valid.

Speaker 2 You don't want to like step in and be like, all right, let me tell you how we should all handle this because I had an alcoholic ex, you know, it's just like, you know, that's what your concerns are, you know?

Speaker 2 And so you could just, you should be able to say to your husband, it's like, I want to help, but I also just want to be respectful of my place. What do you think is best?

Speaker 2 How can I, you know, because quite honestly, your brother should lead this charge. You could be a resource.

Speaker 2 Like, you shouldn't be the one like running the intervention, you know, but like you should be able to offer advice to your husband and direct your husband, whether it's like, how should he engage with his brother, how should he engage with other members of his family to, you know, also try to help and intervene with his brother.

Speaker 2 To be clear, your husband asked for help. His family didn't come to you and ask for help.
So part of you is worrying about something that hasn't even been asked of you yet. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you certainly wouldn't be overstepping as a wife because your, you know, your husband asked. It's like, hey, help.
I need your help.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And it's difficult because I feel like it's something that is always the elephant in the room when everyone's together.
Like everyone's thinking it, no one's saying anything.

Speaker 7 And so I've told my husband that as well, that they kind of enable him. His brother lives with his parents and he's the only sibling that lives with them anymore.

Speaker 7 And they continue to allow this behavior to happen and allow him to just kind of like not really do anything with his life, but don't ever like push him to do anything.

Speaker 2 But what has your husband said about that?

Speaker 2 When you address him? He agrees. He agrees.
Okay.

Speaker 7 Yep. And so that's been the concern is he says that he feels like his parents should be the one to initiate it, but he feels like they're never going to.
So me and him have to do something about it.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, you're there to support him, but it's more we will do this as a team.
You know, but yeah, it's you can voice your concerns.

Speaker 2 Like, for example, there's, you know, I do what I do there have been certain times in our relationship Natalie has maybe asked me to say something to a member of her family for

Speaker 2 you know not something like this

Speaker 2 But there have been times where I've pushed back and said, you know, I'm happy to help, but I just want to I'm not sure how effective it will be coming from me and I'm not sure it's my place.

Speaker 2 And I also like to me I'm also, you know, I've said this to Natalie. I also want to protect my relationship with her family.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be the bad guy, you know, coming in here and like, you know, it's one thing to give tough love to the people who call in, but it's another thing to give tough love to your in-laws.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like, who the fuck are you? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I understand your concerns, but the important thing is your focus need to be, it needs to be in helping your husband, not helping his family or his brother.

Speaker 2 You're there to support your husband in any way that he needs. And if he's asking for your help, then you have the permission that you need.

Speaker 2 to support your husband because he's literally asking for your help. Your husband's right and you're right.

Speaker 2 And also, like, you could say, like, are you, you know, you're not parents yet, you you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm, I'm sure for some parents, it's very difficult.

Speaker 2 Like they don't want to, it's probably hard for them to acknowledge or even see the problem. You know, they're probably in denial, you know, so empathize with that need.

Speaker 2 And so the next step would be for your brother to go to your his parents and say, hey, there's a problem here. Do you guys not see this? We need to do something.
If we don't do something,

Speaker 2 you know, we may lose him. Yeah.
We need to wake up. And what can we do as a family? And that's your, you know, you can be there by your husband's side, but like, that's not necessary.

Speaker 2 You shouldn't be the one delivering that message to mom and dad. Like, it definitely needs to be.

Speaker 2 Does he have other siblings?

Speaker 7 He does.

Speaker 7 He has two other siblings, but his brother is the oldest. He's the second oldest.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And the other two.

Speaker 7 How old are they? A couple years younger.

Speaker 2 Everyone's an adult.

Speaker 2 Everyone's an adult, though.

Speaker 7 Oh, yes.

Speaker 2 Yep. So be it, but how do the two youngest, are they aware of this problem?

Speaker 7 They're definitely aware of it, but they're also, they kind of just push it to the side.

Speaker 7 And my husband has said something to his next oldest sibling before, and they just are like, yeah, like it's a problem, but they just kind of like ignore it.

Speaker 2 So, well, again, if everyone can address it's a problem, you know, like. How long are we going to let this be a problem and at what cost? Yeah.

Speaker 7 And with my history, it's difficult for me because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse sometimes, like when that gets brought up and it's something that I like just want to move on from.

Speaker 7 I don't really want to like have to keep dwelling on that. So sometimes it's difficult for me to even talk about like how I handled that situation because I just don't want to relive that.

Speaker 2 No, that's understandable, but I'm assuming there's things you learned. Right.
And you can just pass along information.

Speaker 2 You don't have to like go there, so to speak. But I'm guessing there's there's just things you learn.
You probably are aware of, even things I'm not aware of.

Speaker 2 I don't know, support groups, things like that. You know, just information out there that I'm guessing that you've looked into.

Speaker 2 Don't be afraid to be a resource and don't be afraid to be a supportive wife. And I think as long as you focus on those two things, you should be okay.
Okay.

Speaker 7 You know, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 And just give your husband the love and most importantly, the support he needs.

Speaker 2 to be the kind of the leader of this family, you know, because as the oldest, sober son who's the most concerned and aware of this problem, while everyone else around is kind of in denial, he needs to step up and do the challenging, difficult thing.

Speaker 2 And he's going to need his supportive wife to be by his side, to encourage him and let him know he's doing the right thing. If he faces any kind of resistance from mom and dad or...

Speaker 2 any of the siblings, he's going to feel isolated. He's going to feel alone.
And that's where you really need to say, we're doing the right thing. I'm proud of you.
You're doing the right thing.

Speaker 2 I know this isn't easy. That's where you can be very supportive.
Just make sure that your husband doesn't feel alone as he tries to lead this charge.

Speaker 2 And quite honestly, by himself, initially, to try to get everyone else in the family on board to understand this is a serious problem and that their son and brother's life is on the line.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we have to do the difficult thing. And how can we, as a family, support our sick family member?

Speaker 7 Yep. That makes sense.
Yeah. I guess I like the idea of just being the support person because I feel like, and maybe I just need to express that to him.

Speaker 7 Like, I'm willing to support you, but I can't be the one to initiate this.

Speaker 2 Well, don't say it like that. That's heavy serial.

Speaker 2 Do you get what I'm saying, though? It's a lot of this has to is down to your delivery here, you know? Yes. Don't lead with what you aren't willing to do.

Speaker 7 That makes sense.

Speaker 2 Has your husband asked you to run the intervention?

Speaker 7 No, not necessarily has he asked you to address his parents no he has not so other than asking for your help what has he asked for he's more just asked for like my thoughts and ideas on how we could do this because like our biggest concern is but in general how does that make you feel like are you capable of doing that i'm capable of doing it i guess it gives me a little bit of anxiety just because of my history and i'm also a very non-confrontational person It makes me, I guess, just a little bit nervous.

Speaker 2 As far as your history, I mean, being involved.

Speaker 2 What do you, I mean, I get the, you not being a confrontational person, but do you have any like trauma? Like you're unwilling to go there for fear of your own skeletons coming out? Is it that deep?

Speaker 2 Or are you just more like

Speaker 2 a little uncomfortable?

Speaker 7 I would say I probably have some, like some unworked through trauma from my previous relationship,

Speaker 7 more so it's just uncomfortable for me.

Speaker 2 Well, I really think this is because of what I've gone through.

Speaker 2 This is an opportunity. This is your husband.
This isn't your boyfriend. He's not some situationship.
You know,

Speaker 2 you're a married woman. This is your husband.
This is a huge opportunity for the both of you to be there for each other.

Speaker 2 And you need to get comfortable talking to your husband like a wife should talk to their husband, which is you should be comfortable.

Speaker 2 expressing how you feel and then not you know hey i want to help you i want to support you.

Speaker 2 I have some nerves too, because obviously, you know, my past. I'm, you know, let him know how you feel.
Don't, I can't do this and I can't do that. All he wants is your support.
That's all he wants.

Speaker 2 He just wants to not feel alone. He wants your advice.
And you should, you should love that he wants your advice. You should love that your husband is interested in your opinion.

Speaker 2 You both should be interested in each other's opinion. You should always be the first two people you go to in terms of, what do you think about that? I'd like your advice.

Speaker 2 I'd I'd like your help and you have that now and you should ask for his help hey you know like that this was that was a very difficult time in my life and I don't know maybe the situation with your brother definitely brings up some skeletons in my closet and you should be able to talk about that with your husband but all he is asking for is your help and support that's it that makes sense so until you know until your husband says hey can you talk to my parents for me You don't need to tell him what you're not willing or capable of doing unless he asks you to do the thing.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? Like you don't, right? Like he hasn't asked you to do that yet. Yeah.
All he said is, hey, can I bend your ear? Can I have your support?

Speaker 2 You know, can I run some ideas by you? Can you offer me any advice? You can do that. He doesn't want to be alone.
And he has no one else. He's, he doesn't have his brother.

Speaker 2 He doesn't have his parents. He doesn't have his younger siblings.
He just has you. And this is an opportunity to bring you guys closer together.

Speaker 2 It's sad that the opportunity that's bringing you closer together is what's going on, you know, but nevertheless, it can be something that brings you two closer together.

Speaker 2 But you have to communicate and be open. And

Speaker 2 this is, I mean, hell, I don't know why you got married, but I'm hoping a big reason why you got married is that for hopefully the rest of your life, you have a partner and a partner that can, you guys can tackle whatever issues come your way, and there will be more issues that come your way.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's a guarantee.

Speaker 2 And you too want to be, have the peace of mind that no matter what you guys have ahead, that you have each other. This is an opportunity.

Speaker 2 And I think it's an opportunity you should embrace and not necessarily focus on the negatives or what you can't do. Communicate how you feel.
I want to be there as a partner.

Speaker 2 And if your husband asks you to do something that you're not comfortable doing, then you could say, well, you know, I'm not sure if I'm the right person, you know, but he hasn't asked you to do that yet.

Speaker 2 You know, I want to support you. I have your back.
You know, I will stand by your side. And, you know, obviously he needs to be the one to do it.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 No, I definitely agree.

Speaker 2 But until he asks you to do it, don't tell him what you can't do.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 2 sounds good.

Speaker 2 And then just focus on what you can do, which is support him. It sucks.
He's got his brother who's fighting addiction and he doesn't know what to do.

Speaker 2 And like you said, it's such a defeatist feeling because if he's not willing to get help, you're very limited in what you can do, you know? And it feels very, and as you must know, very helpless.

Speaker 2 So all, and I'm guessing while you were in that past relationship, you felt alone, yeah?

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 Right. So

Speaker 2 be, give your husband what you didn't get in that relationship and

Speaker 2 that's support. And that's being by his side and letting him know you empathize with him, but we're going to get through this together.
And we have each other. Yep.
That sounds good.

Speaker 2 You bringing that energy into your relationship will go a long way in your marriage.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 7 All right. Like it.
I agree.

Speaker 2 Okay. All right.
Was this helpful?

Speaker 7 Yes, I think so. All right.

Speaker 2 Well, keep us posted. We, uh, I definitely would love an update on how things play out here.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I definitely will. Um, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 When you get off the phone, just send your husband a text and say, Hey, I'm here for you. We'll get through this together.
You have my back no matter what, and we'll figure this out somehow.

Speaker 2 That's what you should send him. I love you.
You know,

Speaker 7 yeah, he would like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, send it.

Speaker 2 All right. All right.

Speaker 7 Sounds good. All right.
Take care. Thank you so much.
You too. All right.
Bye.