E965 Ask Nick - Do I Believe My Husband Or My Best Friend?

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How's it it going?

Hi, Nick.

My name's Jen.

I'm 36, and my husband's ex-wife says cheerleading is off-limits for my daughter.

So, do I tell my daughter no?

Is it

your biological daughter or?

So, it's my biological daughter, yes.

And why does her opinion matter?

So,

my husband has a daughter, and so she's my stepdaughter.

Our daughters are the same age.

Okay,

and we've been together now for four years.

We just got married about two months ago.

And

since the beginning, it's always been kind of like, I don't know if it's his ex-wife who like has an issue with my daughter or if it's like her daughter is having like jealousy, his daughter's having jealousy issues or.

whatever the case may be, right?

Blending families can be very complicated.

So like I understand that aspect of it.

But whenever my daughter has shown any interest in anything that like his daughters are doing or wants to be a part of it or any type of like having both like kids being in any activity together, it's been just a huge toxic fight.

She's been pretty toxic since the very beginning.

She's said, she's said horrible things about my daughter

has, you know, and I think to some extent, I think

part of it is like insecurities from her daughters, you know, the issues with blending families.

But in this particular situation, things were really good.

We had taken the kids to

Disney World for a honeymoon and

his daughter and my daughter got along great.

We had a few hiccups and stuff, but mostly probably because they're tired from long days and, you know, walking and waiting in lines in the park and stuff like that.

But things were really good.

So when we got back,

we had signed them both.

Well, she was signed up for flag football.

My husband coaches football.

And so my daughter got really interested in doing it too.

So we joined the same organization.

Again, at that time, like things with our daughters were great.

And so there started being issues of like, as soon as we got there,

my stepdaughter bullying my daughter and her teammates calling her out on it, which was great.

You know, hey, don't do that.

Don't treat her like that.

Like, why are you doing that to her?

And then.

when we got back from vacation that was the same thing now that flag football is over it turns into a cheer program, cheerleading program, along with like tackle football.

So it's like an organization that, you know, on their, in the fall, they'll do both.

And so my daughter had said she wants to be a part of it.

She's a gymnast.

So she, she's been taking gymnastics for almost four years now.

And so she's like, oh, I want to do this, you know, and be with my stepdaughter in the program.

Well, when his

ex-wife found out,

she just lost it and, you know, started once again creating this huge toxic environment texting us awful things it really sucks because it also impacts my husband's visitation so when things like this when his ex-wife doesn't get her way or she feels like we're intruding or invading her space or whatever she begins to start withholding the kids so he has two daughters um one's uh just turned 16 this year and uh he hasn't seen her in a very long time because

does she have kind of what custody do they they don't share custody so they do they share custody but she but she says you can't force her to go and I'm not gonna force her to go and so he doesn't even get to see his oldest which has been really hard

how old is his oldest she's 16.

I don't know you know I definitely don't understand the legal aspects of

of this stuff

but is she actually correct in terms of forcing her to go if he has joint custody, I understand teenagers can be teenagers, but he does have the right

to see her child.

And I'm assuming she's saying that and he's just like, I'm guessing he just doesn't want to get authorities involved and letting his ex-wife win, so to speak, because like, doesn't he have the right to do that?

I'm assuming.

Because I'm assuming in a lot of these situations, I'm sure your family dynamic isn't the only one where exes are at odds and they use their kids to fight their battles and

manipulate their kids to feel a certain way about mom or dad.

But

yeah.

So, I mean, back to your original question, is your reasoning for considering not allowing your daughter to do cheer

as a way to like bring the family together?

I honestly think that whether I do it or that I don't, like, she's always going to hate me being in her space and stuff like that is, or just the fact that my daughter wants to do anything that her kids want to do is an issue for her.

And my husband,

I think he's so stuck in the middle.

And I'm, I, you know, it's hard for him because, I mean, I don't want to tell my kid, no, he doesn't want my kid to not to miss out on things that she's interested in and wants to do.

But at the same time, it's at the expense of his mental health, right?

Because he has to now deal with the harassing text messages, the name calling, the just bullying from, you know, his ex-wife.

His ex-wife is literally saying, you can't let, let's call your daughter Sarah.

She's saying Sarah can't cheer.

Like, you need to not let Sarah cheer.

Yeah, that's exactly what she's saying.

Because to her, that's...

their daughter's thing and that's their cheerleading organization and they were there first they don't want us to be a part of it they don't want um sarah there and i mean like what what was the context of their divorce did he like leave her did he cheat on her like why she's he is she she sounds pretty bitter yeah um

i honestly think that she wanted to have a fling so she she started a relationship with somebody else and um i think she wanted a fling and

eventually go back to him and i think that that backfired on her because when he because he they had separated, and

she, they lived in his mom's house.

Um,

so

when

they split, they all still lived together.

And then

I think when she started actively pursuing this relationship with this other person, he was just kind of like, my heart breaks every time I hear you on the phone with him.

I can't be in this house when you're literally in a relationship with somebody else.

So I want out.

So he left his own mom's house.

Granted, the mom doesn't live there anymore.

Like that's like a second home and he's, they've been living in there.

So

she started this relationship with this other man.

And from day one, she's kind of been shovel, shoving this man into like her kids' mind as replacement dad.

So is he still in the picture?

My husband or this other dude.

Her new husband?

Yeah, that's her new husband.

Okay.

But they eventually got married.

But initially, she cheated on your husband with this guy,

essentially.

Yes.

So she, she, yeah, so she basically started the relationship, started talking to him while they were still together.

Yeah.

Well, listen, this is a terrible situation for your husband, and I empathize for his situation.

And I'm sorry that his relationship with

his daughters

is as strained as it is.

But in no way can he make that your daughter's problem.

It's just, it's a non-starter.

Obviously, don't know enough about their history to have

thoughtful opinions

about a situation, but he kind of needs to man up and deal with his shit, so to speak.

And clearly, this is a person, his ex-wife, who feels empowered to continue to manipulate and shame him because it seems to work.

You know, when it comes to this type of behavior, Bullies bully until you stand up to the bully.

You know?

You

not allowing your daughter to do cheer would be the absolute worst thing he could do because it's only going to empower her more to be more of a bully at the cost of your daughter's childhood and her dreams and her ability to do what she wants you have to make sure that you're not playing the same game as his ex-wife is doing you know consciously subconsciously like you can you know i'm not saying you're doing it but just make sure you're you and your daughter are not convincing yourselves that you want to do the things that his waters do because it's like you tell yourself well we have every right to do it too, knowing that they're going to have a problem with it,

but you kind of want to win.

And I'm not saying that's happening, but you need to be mindful that you're not doing that.

Right.

So, but if this is something your daughter truly wants to do, in no way

should you give this woman the right to dictate what your daughter does.

It's that simple.

You need to just get on the same page with your husband and you guys need to be a team about this and you need to empathize with his situation and say, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

And when it comes to his daughters, I mean, it's not sound cliche and I've said this, you know, often, but he, this is like a lead with love situation.

Yeah, there's a lot of shitty parents out there and there's a lot of manipulative parents out there who sadly use their kids as a weapon to get back at their partners.

And moms often have very influential relationships with their kids as, you know, kind of a...

often like considered the primary caretaker, you know, not always, you know, and it's sad that if this woman is doing that, but the his his daughter will eventually be an adult she's only 16 now and she will remember you know like if you're i really i firmly believe that if your husband leads with love and doesn't allow his ex-wife to win and by win i mean like play her game stoop to her level fight fire with fire you know she wants to say and do nasty things to him so he she can get him to say and do nasty things back to her and then she can go to her kids and say see see what your father said about me see what he did yada yada he can't give her that power he's got to try as difficult as it is to ignore that and in any way he can connect with his children reach out to his children write them letters go out of his way to fight to have a relationship with his daughters because he has a right to do that even you know and if his kids say i don't want to be there or you know and and then he's going to have to respect that that and then find ways to get through to them.

At some point

in his daughter's lives, they're going to need and want a dad.

This replacement dad,

this is a toxic woman you're describing.

And that usually

shows itself.

And at some point in his daughter's lives, if he is and acts to be the emotional, mature person, the loving, caring person, the person who, despite all their mother's toxicity, chose to lead with love, they will eventually see that.

I don't know when, you know, but they're going to need that type of person in their life.

So he should invest in that type of behavior now.

And that, you know, it's, this is not a great answer.

It's not, you know, it certainly doesn't fix the problem today or tomorrow.

But what he can't do is stoop to her level and give her ammunition.

That's his biggest issue.

Yeah, his biggest issue is that

he has to wait until they come to that, you know, finally get that independence from their mom to make those decisions on their own.

How old your husband is having to, he's 36, like mine, my age.

He's young as fuck, you know?

Yeah.

You know, that's a blessing, you know, but listen, every situation is different.

There's pros and cons.

I didn't become a father until I was 40s.

I, you know, I

knock on wood.

I feel very blessed to have the relationship I have with Natalie and

is mother of my child.

I'm just saying for all the people who maybe didn't start a family into their 40s and realized that the person they had a child with ended up being a toxic, miserable person.

And then when they were 16, they're 56, which is still relatively young if they're taking care of themselves.

Like they could, they would could have a harder time playing the long game because it's like, oh, I'm this old.

Your husband's only 36 years old, right?

Yeah, but it's the milestones, Nick.

The milestones.

I get it.

I get it.

But there's no point.

He's probably not going to be at the high school graduation.

He knows he's not going to be a good person.

See, that's bullshit.

That's bullshit.

That's bullshit.

Like, what do you mean he's not going to be at a high school graduation?

He might not be at the high school graduation party that the school.

He can go to the graduation.

They even let her add

her husband, who wasn't her husband at the time, his last name to their kids at school saying, oh, well, they can name themselves Darth Vader and it doesn't matter.

I can't force them to write their real name.

And yeah,

I understand that's hurtful, but he can still be there.

But he can still be there.

He can go to their games.

Yeah, he might not be treated like their dad, and that's shitty, and that's going to be hard to swallow.

But what I'm saying is he has to be the bigger person here.

He has to show up to the graduation and take his pictures and make himself available if they want to take advantage of their father being there.

And if not, he can still say he was there.

You know, he can still.

enjoy that moment.

So when his daughters grow up and need their dad and realize and wake up to see their mom's toxicity, like they will know dad was always there.

If dad chooses to let mom win and just out of spite not show up and then be like, well, she didn't want me there.

They didn't want me there.

And like, again, he's got to understand that his kids are being manipulated by their mother.

And so he can't be hurt by their kids and don't blame the kids for what their mother is doing.

You know, so he's got to show up.

He's got to swallow his pride.

He's got to be there for those moments.

He can sit, you know,

he can sit in the stands and watch their cheerleading competitions and watch their soccer games or whatever or concerts or whatever things they participate in.

He can be there.

Whether he is welcomed by them or not, he can be there.

And he can take photographs and he can make an album of all his memories

that he even wasn't invited to.

So when his daughters show up and say, hey, you know, and they seek a relationship with their father, whether that's two years from now or five years from now or 10 years from now, he will be able to say, I was always there.

It's funny you say that because for her 16th birthday, that's what he made her.

He made her an album of all their pictures that he's ever had, like with him and the older daughter, and wrote her a letter and, you know, dropped it off.

And that was like the gift he gave her for her 16th birthday.

Didn't get a response, but he wasn't expecting one, I think, more than anything.

He still writes,

he can still write her a letter on her birthdays.

He could write, you know, he can, he can, you know, he can do things.

And he's just got to, he has to swallow his pride.

He's got to play the long game.

And in the meantime, he cannot punish your daughter for the toxicity of his ex-wife.

Yes, definitely, which is what I agreed.

I don't, I think I already knew that, but at the same time, it's like, I don't want to push my stepdaughter further away.

I don't want to like.

You're not pushing her away.

It's it's the mom, right?

Again, you check yourself.

Make sure you're not doing things to instigate.

Okay.

But if your daughter wants to do things, she has the right to do things.

And she has to look the other way and turn the other cheek when, you know,

if his daughters are bullying your daughter, you know, it's like she has to, you know, she can help be the bigger person, which is not fair to her either.

But,

you know,

you guys got to try to lead with love.

If you do the right thing, it eventually will pay off.

You know, the right,

it's hard to do the right thing often because the right thing usually doesn't pay off into the long run.

And it's all usually, often doing the, the, the shortcut isn't the right thing, but it gives you what, that, that sense of instant gratification.

But it's often costly in the future.

Right.

You know, so you and your husband really need to come together and say, hey, you know, this is, this sucks.

It sucks for you as a father.

It sucks for me as your new wife.

And I didn't certainly didn't want to sign up for this.

It sucks for my daughter, but we can get through this together.

But what we have to do is not let this woman win.

And by letting her win, is to play her game.

We have to be above her.

We have to, you know, smile and still be there for your daughters.

And even if they don't from afar, you know, and if you guys can stay consistent, I someday it'll pay off.

It just will.

Because someday these girls are going to wake up and see their mother for who she is.

My, my first, my, one of my first relationships with was uh

their mom.

I didn't realize she did not have a relationship with her father.

And

the version I heard was he was a deadbeat loser dad.

Turns out her mom was the problem.

Her mom was controlling and vindictive and painted this picture of her daughter to her daughters.

And their daughter, she had this idea of who her biological father was.

And

she was like, my mom, her new husband was like, that's my dad.

And he was a good guy, too.

But

it was all based off the mom and while you know sure as shit when she got 18 or 19 she

you know toxic people can help be toxic this woman is going to blow up her life i promise you and when she blows up her life he's got to be there ready to be the dad that he's always wanted to be because he was the and again without he's got to be the bigger person you know it's just i was always you know

And you got to be the bigger person.

If she is as bad as you are describing, it'll catch up with her.

It just won't, it will.

It's as bad as I'm describing, but possibly worse.

But I mean,

I've done the self-like inventory of like, okay, am I doing like the sincerity check, right?

Am I doing this just to be petty or am I doing this because I'm doubly down that you can't tell me where I can and cannot go?

But at the same time, like it's literally walking distance from my house.

I've the people who are running the organization are people I went to high school with, like this, we have friends in the, and the program.

He has coworkers in the program.

like I know that like sincerely like if my daughter actually wants to do it like that's gonna be what I'm gonna go with like but I just I'm I'm really dreading the like anxiety that comes with it even his I think they go to therapy and stuff like that and the therapist is just like well can't you just go somewhere else and I'm like well yeah we can probably but it's like down the street from my house like well again you'll have to go like 10 miles away well again you'll have to decide that I mean there again if there are opportunities to evolve, to still give your daughter the experience she wants, the opportunity to compete in a sport or cheer or whatever it is.

Yeah.

That's all that matters.

If your daughter has friends in this group that she wants to experience these memories with, she has a right to do that.

But if all things being equal, the only difference is a 10-minute drive.

And the principle of it, then,

yeah, then make the goddamn drive.

You know, and that's where you, that's where you and your husband and your daughter have to ask yourself, you know, is it really worth it type of thing?

So, you know, I don't know the details of your community or how all things work, but like, again, you shouldn't be asking your daughter to sacrifice her friends, experiences she wants.

But the principle of things, the convenience of, well, it's 10 minutes down the road, that's where you can check yourself and you can avoid drama.

Yeah.

But you shouldn't be going to your daughter and asking her to make sacrifices for his toxic ex-wife.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Nick.

All right.

Well, good luck.

I mean, keep me posted.

Terrible situation, but you're, you know, this, you're not alone in this.

And I, I promise you, it'll catch up with her.

And you just want to be, you, you want to make sure you, you,

when, when his daughters need

a non-toxic parent, that they have one available to them.

What you don't want is to be like, well, my mom sucks, but so does my dad.

Because all they have seen is mom and dad be toxic to each other.

And they've seen dad stoop to mom's level so that as young children, they really can't see the difference.

Yeah.

Because kids don't know the origin stories of their parents' toxicity.

You know?

Yeah.

Definitely.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

All right.

Well, good luck.

Take care.

Thanks.

You too.

All right.

Bye-bye.

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How's it going?

Hi.

My name's Jessica.

I'm 29 and I'm stuck between my best friend and my husband and I don't know which side to choose.

Okay.

Well, tell me why you're considering not taking your husband's side.

So

my husband is a wonderful person.

We've been together for five and a half years

and almost like married for almost a year.

And I think he obviously loves me very much and I love him back.

I think that he tends to be very similar to your demeanor, where he, you know, is like very blunt, very direct, like kind of is like cut and dry, black and white.

And I tend to be a little bit more like fluid in certain situations, especially when it comes to my friends.

So I think sometimes I tend to be a little too lenient.

And so I just want to make sure that, you know, what I'm thinking in this whole situation is correct and that, you know, just kind of getting a second opinion on that.

Okay.

So tell me what's going on with your friend that you in well.

So it sounds like your husband has a very definitive opinion about your friend and you're, and you're on the fence.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm I'm on the fence and obviously like take his advice into account on almost everything.

But when it comes to my friends, I just kind of want to make sure instead of having a blind spot when it comes to my husband, I want to make sure that I'm being fair.

So basically to give you some background, so I've been friends with this person as long as I've been together with my husband.

So we actually met through him.

So he and her were best friends in high school.

They've known each other for most of their lives.

And

basically he introduced us saying that, okay, you have, you know, a lot of different

things in common.

And so, you know, I think that you guys would get along well.

So we did a lot of like double debates with her and her now ex-husband.

The four of us would hang out.

We'd all go, you know, together to different dinners, concerts, et cetera, et cetera.

So she and I started traveling together.

We just, you know, became really close.

Her friends became my friends.

It was a whole like very

close-knit group of people.

So this past year, well, I guess backing up a little bit.

So they actually got married in 2023.

So her and it was her boyfriend at the time when my husband and I first met and were dating.

And they had already been together two years.

And then kind of, you know, progressing into all of our friendships, they

got married in November, a couple of years ago.

And when they got married, I was the maid of honor in her wedding.

And then vice versa, I got engaged and married this past fall.

And so she was the maid of honor in my wedding.

So in January, I guess-ish timeframe, probably January, February of this year, she let us know that her and her husband were getting divorced.

And we actually found out through a friend of ours.

So it wasn't even like her that had told me.

It was like, oh, such and such is going through a really hard time.

Like, you know, I think she's going to be getting a divorce from her husband.

And, you know, we were all really shocked because it's a lot of, you know, like we had hung out a lot.

We talked to both of them very frequently.

And it didn't seem like there were any problems.

So then it was probably a month later, she kind of stopped like showing up to things, stopped like talking talking to a lot of our like group of friends.

And she sent us a text completely out of the blue in a group chat.

Hey, I'm divorcing my husband.

Like, I don't want to talk about it.

Please don't ask any questions.

This is kind of what's going on.

And I was like, okay.

So as you can tell, it's like really shocking, but kind of through that whole process, like we find out more information, right?

So of course things kind of like come out as time goes on and everything seems really suspicious for lack of a better term.

Like it just kind of seems like we didn't know all the information from the beginning.

So it kind of became a situation where she started saying things here and there and was like making comments about that would like lead us to believe that there potentially was another person.

Like I talked with her and she seemed obviously completely heartbroken at the time and was like, you know, it's just not working out.

We just don't see eye to eye.

Like, and I was like, well, you've been together for, you know, close to eight years at this point.

And like you got married, you know, a year and a half ago.

Like, what has this always been happening?

Like, what is going on?

She was like, yeah, well, I thought that getting married would fix it, which I don't always believe that that's the case.

Like, I feel like

people sometimes think that getting married is going to, yeah, right.

Like, people think that marriage is going to fix their problems.

And I'm of the belief that obviously, like, you're marrying someone for a reason, but you try to like suss that out beforehand.

I mean, people who, people who think marriage is going to fix their problem are the problem, truly, yeah.

So, so they're like, She was like, Yeah, I thought that marriage was going to fix my problem.

And what was her problem?

It just was really shocking to me.

And so, I was like, Okay, well, so just to clarify, you heard rumors, rumblings that there might be another person in the picture on her end, like that she might have been.

Yeah, so not necessarily heard rumblings, but more just like, I was kind of like, well, it doesn't seem like there's another option, right?

Like I've been around with them.

Like there were never any problems that they talked to us about, which of course, like, I mean, they're probably not going to broadcast their marriage to all of their friends, but it's like, there were never really any problems.

They seemed good.

Like it wasn't, you know, like an abusive situation.

They weren't fighting all the time.

Like there was nothing that really really was like red flags.

So, yeah, you know, they may be getting divorced.

Like, so it was kind of weird.

And then, like, basically, I was, you know, kind of talking to her about it.

And I was like, so, you know, how are you feeling about this whole situation?

Her main concern wasn't like, oh, I'm really sad.

You know, I'm getting divorced, blah, blah, blah.

It was like, oh, if I delete all the pictures of my husband on social media, someone's going to think I cheated.

And I was like, well, that's a weird take to have.

So that was kind of weird.

And then like, we were, you know, she was talking about like getting a new apartment and like was concerned because she's going to be like living closer to family and she was like well what if my family just like barges in and i have like people there and i was like sure

but like shouldn't you be concerned about like getting furniture and like moving out and like taking your dog and worried about how the divorce is going to go and your paperwork and like all these things it just seemed a little weird so i guess what what's your husband's opinion on this so my husband and the ex-husband are close friends.

So they share like really similar taste in music.

They're, you know, they play video games together.

They're really into the same sports, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

So they all, they hang out like all the time.

And so he, the ex-husband, actually came over to our house and was kind of giving us his side of the story and like seemed completely blindsided by everything.

Like for lack of a better phrase, he was like, I don't know what happened.

We never talked about it.

We never went to therapy.

Like this was brought up to me once or twice, but I didn't know that it was an issue to get divorced over.

And so I think that he was, he was pretty, you know, she was like, I'm generally just just not happy or type of stuff.

Yeah.

So it seems like they weren't connected.

It seems like they weren't connected physically.

And that was like a big problem.

It seems like they just weren't on the same page about a lot of things.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it seems like they just weren't on the same page about a lot of things.

And so how old are they?

I think that

like late 20s, they're basically the same age that I am.

So 28, 29.

All right.

And what's your

husband's known this woman for a long time, was good friends with her.

What's his opinion of her character?

Yeah.

So they tend to bot heads a lot.

My, my husband has very strong opinions.

And, you know, I think that he, you know, tends to say what he thinks.

And they've gotten into like just, you know, dumb disagreements in the past.

And so they're both like very, they're both very strong headed.

And so

he

had a really close relationship with her, I guess, like growing up and like in high school.

But then kind of as time went on and as things kind of like happened in her and friendship, like, I think he's more of the mindset of like, I don't think that she's a good person for the way that she's one, handling this, and then two, for, you know, the way that like she's treated me in certain scenarios.

And like, it kind of came out after the fact, too, that like, you know, her being the maid of honor in my wedding, like, we found out that like she didn't treat like our family well.

She didn't treat other people in the wedding well.

She like was really like rude and condescending and like was really selfish in a lot of it.

And we didn't find out until like the last like couple of months.

So I think like his idea of her character is dwindling.

I don't think that he's like be with her.

And he basically like the whole reason why I ended up like kind of wanting to get a third, you know, opinion on this situation is that like there was one day that completely out of the blue, he decided to like unfollow her on Instagram and like unfriend her on Facebook, which like not a big deal.

Right.

So it was because like her, him and her ex-husband were going to different events and still hanging out and doing all these things.

And like he could see that like she was like watching his stories and like liking his posts and like doing all these things.

But like she would text me and be like, oh, hey, I see that your husband's hanging out with my ex-husband.

And like, I'm just so glad that his friends are there for him.

And I'm this, that, and the other.

And my husband was like, well, I don't want to put you in the middle of it.

Like, I don't want you to have to like answer.

for her ex-husband.

And so I'm just going to like cut it off and make it so that like we don't have any more contact.

And he was like, and I don't really care to see her stuff anymore anyway.

His mindset is just like, he knows how she is from the way that they've like grown up, and basically said that he feels like eventually he'll be forced to choose a side.

So he's just kind of cutting his losses now.

Okay.

So, just one more time to clarify: there's no actual hard evidence that there's another person in the picture, just that she said it said she has said some things that

sound off to you and kind of question

if there's another person, person, correct?

Yeah, there's no, there's no hard evidence specifically.

We've heard some rumblings.

There's been some like comments that were weird.

Like there's been some like interactions that were strange, but like other than that, it's not

the guy.

Like, yes, this happened.

She wouldn't be the first person, certainly not the first person in their late 20s or early 30s who like realized they didn't want to be married.

And there doesn't have to be an affair or another person going on for her to desire to want to date other men or miss the attention of going out and being hit on by men and wish that she could hit on them back.

Or, you know, clearly for someone who just out of nowhere decided to divorce their husband, they must be pining for a lifestyle that would allow her to invite men over or to have parties or, you know, and things like that.

And she sounds like a person who is worried about what other people might think of her.

I mean, most of us are, right?

So, like, whether, I mean, I honestly think it's kind of a waste waste of time.

It doesn't really matter, honestly, you know, if there is another person or not.

I mean, yeah, I mean, it would, it would be extra shitty of her and maybe speak to her character even worse.

At a minimum, she sounds like a selfish person.

Someone who can get married because they think it's going to fix some problem and then like out of nowhere.

And like, I don't know what she thought of marriage or how serious she took it or what she was actually willing to do or what her vows meant to her, but clearly not much.

She just decided that marriage was inconvenient for her.

I'm sure as you know, like marriage takes a lot of work.

Your and your husband's ability to be together 20 years from now will not be based on how you guys feel about each other today.

You know, it'll be based off of you as individuals.

wanting to like have a family and put in the work and wake up and choose to like be with each other.

And then someday you guys are going to wake up and feel disconnected or be at odds with each other and not see eye to eye, but know deep down there's love there and say, I want to work and fix the disconnect that we have.

And even if there are moments where you feel unseen by your husband and you don't start wishing other men would hit on you, you focus on trying to get that back.

And as you guys grow older and look less hot, you don't go seeking that attention in other spaces.

You just, again, you put in the the work She is someone who clearly like didn't sign up for this type of work, you know, she sounds like a person who liked the idea of being married, you know again She's also only in her late 20s and we live in a time where people aren't maturing any faster and late 20s is the new like 18 year olds Type of thing

Yeah, so for sure doesn't mean she's like a bad person, just means maybe she's just a far more selfish era than any of you guys guys anticipated to your husband's point yeah um given that you guys are newlyweds i don't think you should be just generally surrounding yourself with people who have the mindset that she has i don't think that's going to do you guys any good you know i'm not saying you're incapable of of being uh with like single women and like you know i'm not you know like as if like you you you can't be around people who quote unquote bad influences i'm just it's not helpful i i think you know

I think it is important to surround yourself with people who share similar values to you guys.

I think as married couples, I think young married couples should pay close attention to the people they surround themselves with.

I think it's

a huge red flag when young married couples have friends who are very single.

And then when those young married couples, you know, want to spend quality time with those single friends, I think that's a red flag.

You know, I think

when young married couples are together, they want to be with each other, they want to invest in their relationship, and they like the idea of surrounding themselves with people who share that value.

Doesn't mean it can't work.

I'm not saying every person, you know, I'm not saying when you get married, you have to fire all your single friends.

I just think it's a bit of a red flag, her behavior.

And the fact that your husband wants to distance himself a little bit from this person, probably it makes a lot of sense.

You know, know, I'm not saying you have, I'm not saying you can't be friends with her, but I also just, in general, I think unless your husband is just fucking wrong about something,

I think you should always have each other's back.

And he's normally not.

Like, I think that he has a really good read on people.

And that's why I trust him because, like I said, I tend to be a little jaded when it comes to my friendships.

And so like, of course, like, you know, dramatic, like saying, am I going to choose my husband's side?

Because like, of course I am.

Like, he's my family and he's my partner and like you know he's the person that i'm going to choose but i think that you know it's to your point like can i still be friends with someone that you know doesn't one match up with my values and then two like doesn't get along with my husband right because then you're thinking like okay if i'm doing anything like for example my birthday just was a couple weeks ago and so like if i'm going to invite you know friends over like you know she doesn't want to be around him like she's made that clear and vice versa so i'm like can i invite her to those things can i you know if we're gonna have a housewarming party if we're gonna you know

the other like can i can i have her there and so i think yeah i i would say no but i also think if your husband's okay with it and if this is more about like listen i just don't want to fuck with her i'm friends with Brad.

That's her ex-husband.

I'm just making up a name here.

Brad's a good guy.

Brad didn't sign up for this.

And, you know, like,

and I definitely want Brad in the divorce, so to speak.

And she just seems to be going through something which again no judgment on her as a person but like she's she just doesn't want the same shit I want and if it's between Brad and her I'm gonna pick Brad that then you give her the opportunity assuming your husband's chill with it being like you know like I don't she's fine I just If it's between her and Brad, I'm going to pick Brad.

So if you guys have a housewarming party, a birthday party, whatever, yeah, she wouldn't be invited.

And then you give her the opportunity to still have some kind of relationship.

Like maybe you guys grab lunch or something.

And if she's just like, well and if she has a problem with that because she doesn't like the idea that she you guys picked brad then that's her bad and you could be like listen like you let you left you left him you know he didn't choose this we didn't choose this i respect your choice i'm not saying you should be with someone that you don't want to be married but like at the end of the day you chose this life and we weren't going to punish him for the new life you wanted i you know my husband's my husband you know i'm gonna always have his back and i you know you're never gonna come between that But if I'm still down to like, you know, if you want to call me up, I can, you know, be your friend.

I'm down to grab lunch.

If I have free time, she'll probably opt not to.

She doesn't sound like a person who's going to be down for that type of friendship.

She's going to act like you're judging her, shaming her, and, you know, things like that.

Right.

And that's the other thing, too.

So like, I think with this whole, like, this whole divorce situation, I think I almost have.

Not a unique take, like, I'm not acting like I'm special, but like a take where, like, she and I have talked a lot lot about like past traumas and like I've been in therapy for years like with you know family and childhood trauma and like she and I match up a lot.

Like there's a lot of similarities with things that we've gone through in the past.

And I think that honestly like my take on everything and she's never been to therapy.

I think that my take on everything is that she genuinely decided to check out of the relationship and like didn't tell anybody and basically like, you know, was like, I've decided this and didn't clue her husband in, like didn't go to therapy, didn't really try to fix it.

And then, you know, all of a sudden just kind of like dipped out.

And I think that she's still kind of dealing with the aftermath of that.

And like, I've encouraged her to go to therapy and I've encouraged her to, you know, do all of these things.

But I think for, you know, to a certain extent, I almost like feel for her, right?

Like I'm like, if I hadn't gone to therapy and if I hadn't done all these things, like, I don't know, like, I feel like I would probably do the same thing.

Like, I wouldn't be able to be in a healthy relationship because I haven't worked through these things.

And so I think to that point, like I'm almost like, not feeling bad, like I'm not pitying her, but I'm like, you know, that kind of sucks that like you're probably going through something and feel like no one's there for you.

But then like your ex-husband is collateral damage in this whole situation because you just decided to marry him and try to fix your problems

putting a ring on it, you know?

You're not a therapist and she's not asking for your help.

True.

She is an adult and she's going to have to figure this shit out herself.

You have tried to steer her in the right direction.

You can only do so much, but you can't make her problems your problems.

And like, you know, I think there's a big difference between the two.

And I think sometimes we convince ourselves of like, well, I don't want to alienate my friend and my friend needs me.

And if my friend just did what I did, they would be in a better place and things like that.

But that's you making her problems your problems.

That's doing more than you're being asked of.

And that's energy that you should be investing in your marriage.

and relationships and friendships that match the lifestyle that you and your husband want to have.

I mean, is that cold?

I don't know, I guess, but it's just like, I just think even the best relationships are so hard.

And I just think now more than ever, it's

nothing in this, nothing in our society today really is supportive of

good, healthy marriages.

You know, I think we, as people, we're having a harder and harder time connecting.

Misery loves company, right?

You know, so there's more single people than married people.

And then there's more cynical divorced people than married people.

So you don't have a lot of people like rooting for your success.

So it's that much more important to find people who are rooting for you, who, who, when you and your husband fall on a hard time, and you will at some point, you know, it may, you know, it might not get to the point where you're like questioning, should we be together, but it might be where you're just like at odds.

And you're going to want to be surrounded by people who can say, Yeah, we've been there before, but we got through it and here's how we did it.

You know, you want people who, you don't want to be surrounding yourself with the single, cynical people who'll be like, I don't know, yeah, like fuck, I fucking hated my husband, like, fuck marriage, and you know, fuck this.

And it's just like,

those people are easy to find.

Do you think it'd be worth it to have like a conversation with her to say, like, hey, this is where I'm at?

This is what I'm thinking.

Or like, do you think it's just kind of like

just like a fizzle out situation?

Again, I'm not saying you have to fire her as a friend, but if she takes exception with not being picked and she starts noticing that

Brad is being picked and then she calls you out on that then you can level with her.

Yeah, like let her in the way of like let her bring the problem to you.

Don't bring the problem to her, you know, for all for all you in that situation How would you confront that?

Like would you say like I would just be real with her just be like listen like I'm really sorry this didn't work out for you, but like you're entering a season of your life that I'm just not interested in.

And I love you and I'm here to be your friend.

But like, you know, and also like, I'm glad you wish him well, but like, I'm always going to choose my husband.

And I'm not going to make my husband not be friends with the guy because you decided to leave him.

And you have every right to do that.

But like, listen, this is a consequence of, you know, there are consequences to all our choices, you know?

And

you made this choice.

And I support the choice.

But you can't expect everyone around you to take your side.

And I got to choose my husband.

And more importantly, you know, I'm invested in

people who, you know, like, I don't, I don't want to go bar hopping for guys, you know, it's just like, and yeah, and, you know, and or just be like, listen, I, I, I, I, this might sound cold.

And I, I know, I'm sure this sounds unfair, but like, I'm never going to ask my husband to uninvite.

your husband over you.

And I understand why you might feel a certain way about that.

But yeah, and you don't try to convince her that you're right.

You know what I'm saying?

It's, you're not right.

It's your opinion.

I don't expect her to like it.

I don't expect her to agree with it.

You're not trying to convince her why you're making a decision.

It's, it's a shitty decision that she's going to hate.

And she's going to feel very strongly about it, most likely, you know, because of everything,

her whole decision tree has been about her.

She is doing things for herself.

Right now, she has the mindset of I need this for me.

And I'm going to do what's best for me right now.

And what I need is to be not married and I need people to not think I cheated and I need to do this for me.

And when you had her as a maid of honor at your wedding, she was thinking of herself.

She wasn't thinking, this is my friend's day and I'm here for her and I'm here as a servant to her and her family because it's my job to make this day special for my friend.

She acted in a way that, you know, made people think this is a person who's thinking of herself right now.

Yeah, for sure.

And I think like it was interesting because when

my husband had unfollowed her, you know, on Instagram or unfronted her on Facebook or whatever, like she had reached out to me.

And it was like right before I was going to work and she texted me and she was like, oh, I saw that your husband, you know, unfollowed me.

Oh, great.

And unfronted me on Facebook too, you know, like something really passive progressive.

And I basically just said, listen, like.

I don't want to be involved.

Like, I'm not interested.

Like, I understand that like you're upset about my husband doing that, but like, like i i don't want to be involved and i think like we ended up sitting down and like talking about it and it was a you know well i don't want your husband to be in your ear and telling you you know about my character and like you know not wanting us to be friends and all these things and i was like i live with the guy like you know

my husband you know my husband's gonna be in my ear you know and like right but like that's and that's kind of my point she's it's not that she's a bad person she doesn't want what you want you know

It's like,

if it's, that's why the sober person doesn't hang out with the heavy drinker.

You know, it's just, sometimes lifestyles just don't match up.

You know, it's odd that she's, you know, she's

yeah, it's like, I don't, listen, if you don't want to be married, you shouldn't be married.

You know, like you're, you did a favor for everyone, but at the same time, choices have consequences.

And you didn't think of me.

And I didn't expect you to, but it's not like when you got divorced, you considered me, my feelings, my husband's feelings.

You just, you know, you considered your feelings and you had the right to do that.

And I support you doing that, but you don't get to then now come back to me and tell me how I'm supposed to communicate with my husband.

Yeah, that's true.

No, that's definitely a great take.

And I think that that, I mean, that makes a lot of sense because especially when you don't have someone supporting you through, you know, through that season of life where you can't support each other through those seasons of life, like it becomes really difficult to to to have anything in common and that's where i think i'm i'm struggling now right because i'm like i don't have anything in common with you like we don't do the same things you don't like the same things and like you know she's made it a point in in the past to like not want to be around like some of my closest friends either like

they're like married and people that i hang out with a lot and like those are people that i really value their you know relationships and opinions and so I don't know.

She's kind of making it very difficult for me to be her friend.

Yeah.

I mean, she doesn't, you know, because people like you make her feel judged.

Right.

No, and she's mentioned that.

She said, like, you know, I feel like I'm judged when I'm in, you know, this group.

And I'm like, no one's done anything to make you think that.

So I don't know.

Is that internal then?

Like, I mean, well, the truth is you guys are probably judging her a little bit.

So there's some truth to what she's saying.

And I don't know.

It's just like,

you know, welcome to life.

I don't, you know, I don't know.

That's like, we're not kids anymore.

Yeah.

We make choices.

We have to live with our choices.

But like, she is acting like she did, she gets gets to make choices without consequences.

And she's expecting everyone to sympathize and see her side.

And that's just not how shit works.

You know?

And I don't want the same things you want.

I just got married.

I'm still a newlywed and relationships are hard.

And I'm not going to, and I want mine to work.

And I'm, you know, I do.

And I'm like, that's valid.

I'm not saying that to make you feel bad.

I'm just, that's my truth.

So, yeah,

I'm definitely not, you know, if you need friends to

hit the town with, I'm not the person.

I'm not that person, I'm not one of them, yeah.

You know, yeah, that definitely makes sense.

We have like, we have a very close, like, mutual friend, too.

Like, I mean, the three of us are like really, really good friends, and you know, she's kind of in like a new season of life, like she's a new mom,

and um, you know, her and her husband have been together for a long time.

And she and I have become really close friends.

But this, this other friend that, you know, I'm not as close with anymore introduced us.

And so I think that like the two of us feel kind of like like awkward navigating it because

I don't know, like when she was going through like all this divorce stuff and kind of went MIA, like this other friend of mine was like a month away from giving birth.

And so like when, you know, she had the baby, like I was the first person that she told like two weeks into the relationship, like.

when she had the baby home, like I came over and like brought them lunch and like wanted to interact with the baby.

And like this other friend was really jealous of that and really upset that like she and I are interacting.

But like you said i mean kind of supporting each other through those seasons of life like if she's you know selfishly you know kind of going through this whole situation like i don't know how to you know tell her that hey like you're you know it's not that you're not included but like we're not just going to include you for the sake of including you like if you don't actually want to be here does that make sense yeah yeah i mean listen at the end of the day she's just

she's she's going through a selfish period in her life And she's doing it at a time where many of her other friends, including you, are choosing the opposite.

You are choosing as you're in the the season of life of thinking, what can I do for this relationship?

It's not about me anymore.

It's about us, right?

You're in the season of us.

She's in the season of me.

And it just is what it is, you know?

Yeah.

She's not wrong.

She probably is making the best decision for herself right now and for him, you know?

And maybe in the future, you guys will come back together, you know?

And that's why I'm saying it doesn't have to be some bitter breakup, but you might say things to her that she doesn't like to hear and that's fine, you know?

Or maybe she will also just be the type of person who's like, I don't know, like, for example, like listen, less dramatic, but in my early 30s, I broke up with my girlfriend, you know, we, we broke up, right?

And many of my other friends got engaged, you know, and I was living in Milwaukee and I'd been in Milwaukee for the better part of a decade.

It's a relatively small city.

And I was just like, I just, I, I'm not meeting any new people.

And so I, I was just more like, I got to get the fuck out of here.

And I moved to Chicago.

And it was just more like, I, I'm, I'm still looking for my person.

I still want to go out.

I'm single.

Like, I, you know, I guess would it be nice to have met someone by now?

Sure, but I haven't yet.

So I moved, you know, I made new friends.

I, I,

you know, I, I was this, I decided like, yeah, I don't, you know, I also pride myself on being a great third and fifth wheel, but I also was like, you know, I love my friends, but like they're in a different season.

than I am.

And I'm going to make some moves in my life.

And so hopefully she, that's what she decides.

And she doesn't put you in a position to have to like say the, you know, because like if I had not had that realization, right?

Like maybe I was just more thinking about myself and how I, the fact I haven't found anyone and me and my, and then I was like going to my buddies who are now engaged and be like, hey, come on, are we going to go out tonight?

And they're like, you know,

I'm going to stay home with the lady.

And, you know, actually, we got, we got a wine tasting tomorrow.

And I was like, oh man, like, what?

You stop being such a like, oh, you're going to choose your girl, you know, like that would have

been crazy for me to do, but that's essentially what you're worried that she might do, you know?

know so let's see if she does it right now it's so raw and fresh you know but she just might end up you know finding new friends and there's a good chance she might do that because she doesn't want to feel judged by you and she doesn't and she realizes she doesn't want what you want and things like that and she realizes she's not getting you know it probably will work itself out yeah definitely no and i totally agree and i think that that that makes a lot of sense because when we like had met and kind of like tried to talk things out she got really emotional and she was like i'm losing my husband and like now i feel like i'm losing my best friend and like you know all these things but i think she's just you know going through a lot of change and there's just not a lot that i can do to help or like condolences that i can really offer outside of like hey i'm sorry you're going through that she doesn't have to lose her friend she just has to like i didn't lose my friends but like you know did we grow apart at times that i see less of my friends sure yeah You know, we weren't any less close.

It was just more like, hey, man, like, you do you.

I'm going to do me.

you know i still love you but like i don't want to go to the you know a pottery class with you and your fiancé

i want to i'm going to go out tonight you know so have fun and so hopefully she doesn't put you in a position to choose but like you can still be friends but it might be friends in a different context and you might not be like double dating as much anymore and maybe in the future when she meets a guy you can go on a double date as after the dust settles yeah it wouldn't be crazy like six months from now, she meets a guy, she likes him, she realizes that maybe I just didn't want to be married to him.

And, you know, hurt feelings aside, that like, you know, she's might not be your husband's favorite person, but like, can they double date?

Sure.

And like, and, and Brad can, you know, can get over that as well.

Because while you might be inviting him to the parties now, like, he's also not in a position to say, you can never hang out with my ex-wife and new girl and new boyfriend if she ends up finding someone either, you know?

Like,

yeah.

And he wouldn't be the type to do that.

Like, and I know that about him, but I do know that, you know, this person that I was, that I'm really close friends with, like, I know that she would do that.

Like, she would be like, well, why are you hanging out with such and such?

And, you know, his new girlfriend and blah, blah, blah because it'll likely be that like if she gets together with another guy like and he's dating another girl like we will probably double date with him and this other girl.

And I mean, you know, that's a plan that my husband's going to make and I will be along for the ride.

So you can choose to get divorced and I'll support it.

You can choose to be selfish.

I'll support it.

You don't get to choose to be petty and then tell me what I can and can't do and then, and then call me a bad friend for it.

For sure.

Yeah.

No, that's very smart.

So,

all right.

Yeah, totally agree.

That makes sense.

Well, thank you so much for your help.

My pleasure.

Really love listening to your show.

And I love your reality recaps.

I'm a big Bravo fan.

So.

Well, I appreciate you calling in.

Thanks for listening.

And, you know, keep us posted.

I'd love an update on this friendship dynamic as it unfolds.

Yep, I'll let you know.

I appreciate it.

Take care.

Awesome.

Thanks.

All right.

Bye-bye.

Bye.

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Well, obviously, one of the most meaningful things I get to do in the show is hear people's stories about the relationships and problems they have and hopefully try to help them from time to time.

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How's it going?

My name's Jessica.

I am 28 years old and I'm wondering if I should wait or let go.

And

who are we talking about?

We're talking about my most recent ex.

So

why are you?

So it's a relationship.

Okay.

And did he break up with you?

He break up with me, yeah.

Okay.

And why are you considering waiting?

Did he ask you to?

No.

So it's a little bit of a complicated, it's a little bit different than anything I've ever experienced before because a lot of my relationships have been very cut and dry.

Like very obviously we should break up.

This is not working.

And this one was kind of out of the blue.

So a little bit of a backstory.

We were friends for like a year and a half before.

We met at work.

And then I left that job and we stayed in contact here and there.

To be quite honest, I'm maybe the most blind person in the world and I had no idea that like it was even a romantic interest at any point.

Um, he had a girlfriend for most of the time that I knew him, and then obviously, when I left, that ended sometime.

And he ended up asking me to go to the movies at like 9:30 on a Tuesday.

And I was like thinking we were going as buddies and held my hand, tried to hold my hand.

It was a very awkward interaction.

Um, but then

kind of from there, it kind of took off.

Um, it was pretty easy.

Um, no fighting, nothing like crazy.

If we had an argument, it was very tame and it was very communicative.

Like we just communicated through it.

There was really nothing wrong at all.

And then that went on for eight months.

And then, I mean, when I say there was nothing wrong, I mean, there was stuff wrong, but nothing between us or so I thought.

So a little background on me is I come from a family that has no divorce.

So I think I have one aunt that's been through a divorce, but but my dad's one of four, my mom's one of four, my sister's married, everybody's been happily married for 50 to 20 years.

And I've had a lot of stable relationships examples.

And he's probably the complete opposite.

He does, his family life is a little bit different.

He lost his dad pretty tragically when he was young.

And then his mom remarried.

And then that ended.

very poorly.

They had been going through like a five-year divorce

when I met him.

And I think it's still somewhat ongoing and it's very toxic, a little violent.

So it's just

what he's seen in his life.

And then also he

was an addict.

He's been sober for a pretty long time.

But I think he carries like a lot of guilt from that portion of his life.

if that makes sense.

So

there's a lot of trauma.

Gotcha.

And I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, just a stab in the dark, that when you say

this is a little bit different,

in your head, there's a narrative that sounds something like, or when he broke up with you, he gave you some kind of line that sounded something like, I just can't do this right now,

or I just don't know how to focus on us.

or blah, blah, blah, because of all the things that he's dealing with, his sobriety, his mom's relationship.

And so you're telling yourself, this is a person who's hurting right now, who needs me, and he can't do this right now, but he might be able to do this in the future.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not delusional.

I won't believe me, I am delusional sometimes.

But

I think in this case,

I'm pretty aware.

that

it so so basically what happened was he he also like the whole time was writing me like letters and things like postcards.

This is something like I knew him in a relationship previously.

So like I knew he never did that.

So it was very much hot and heavy very, very quickly.

Like he told me he loved me.

He told me he wanted to have babies with me and stuff like three months in.

And I'm like, okay, like maybe let's relax for a minute.

Like I love that for us, but like not now.

Like let's wait.

And he like kind of presented that to his mom when he introduced me, like, this is a person that I'm going to marry, like, all that kind of stuff, introduced me to his sisters, which he doesn't typically do.

So

everything about it was like a little bit different.

And it was very much like, oh my God, if I ever, if we ever break up, if you ever decide to break up with me, like I'm not doing this again, like I'm not dating, I'm done.

And so when we broke up, he was presented as like, I don't think I ever want to be with anybody.

Like that was the answer was that I, you are so loving and caring,

but, and you deserve someone who's going to be able to love and reciprocate and care like, like you do.

And I don't even love myself or want like a relationship ever.

So that's what I'm thinking.

So it was presented.

Basically, what happened was we were laying in bed.

We had gone to dinner that day.

Everything was fine.

We had spent the whole night together.

It was great.

And it was like one o'clock in the morning.

And he was like, can I be honest with you?

And I was like, yeah.

and he was like i don't know if i ever want to have children and i was like oh okay

like that's that's different than what you've said before but yeah i mean if that's how you're feeling like i mean we can talk about it and i'm not like set on anything like obviously in my life you get married you have kids like that's that's what you do but I'm slowly realizing maybe that's not my life.

I don't know.

We'll see.

How old are you again?

I'm 28.

28.

Yeah.

I have time to figure it out.

Like I, I was on the wave that like I was going to be 26, married and have babies and whatever.

And now it's definitely not what I think.

But

so he never, it almost felt like I was like, he's like, well, you want kids.

And it's like, well, I think I want kids, but like, I want kids with the right person in the right time when we're ready, like as a group decision.

And so that, and then it turned into like, well, I don't know if I ever want to move in with you.

And then it turned into, I don't know if I ever want a girlfriend.

And, you know.

Yeah.

And then it turned into, I don't ever know, I don't ever see myself being in a relationship again.

And then

so that was three months ago.

I did call him

last week.

It was more out of like, I, so when that happened, I was like cripplingly anxious, sad, terrible.

Still have those moments.

um but i turned it into something positive i started going to therapy again i started started working out every day.

I lost like 46 pounds.

Like it was like, I was doing everything for me at that point because I needed to turn it into something not.

I'm going to jump out of the window and like die.

So I, we have still have some coworkers that we keep in contact with, like mutuals people.

So I was hearing some stuff that I didn't really like that was being said.

just about the breakup about like oh i just didn't see a future with her instead of like it was like more blaming me for it somewhat um And also the, I went to, I was out of town for work last week and I was in the airport with one of my friends just randomly.

And she was like, oh, I saw him today and he looks like, he looks terrible.

And I was like, okay, like, please don't tell me that.

Like, I just don't need to know.

Like, this is just stuff that I can't hear.

And

so I, so the

curiosity got the better of me and some stuff happened in some with some of our old coworkers and stuff.

So I just called called him and he didn't answer, but he texted me back like right away and he ended up being out of town.

So something I didn't say was one of the triggers for all of this happening was

he lost his job in January.

And that is when he said like his feelings started to change because he started to get too like anxious and emotional and everything was just coming at him.

He also started.

In December, he has been sober for a while, but he's never done any of his step work.

So he never went through the 12 steps, never got a sponsor.

If we back up to December, he

and I were talking.

And I think I remember it because I was on my couch.

And I remember being like, what's your deepest, darkest secret?

As like a joke, like me thinking, like, as someone who doesn't have too much, too much trauma, I'm like, this is a silly question, right?

And he gave me some bullshit answer and I gave him some bullshit answer back.

It was just like funny.

Like we used to ask questions like that.

And then like a couple of days later, he was like,

can I tell you what my deepest, darkest secret is?

Really?

And I was like,

yeah.

Like, what did you do?

Like, you killed someone?

Like, what's going on?

Like, a little scary.

And I'm not going to air it out because that's his, it's, it's some, it's a lot of trauma.

And most of it is, has nothing to do with him.

It's like family stuff that he feels really guilty about.

And he was like, do you hate me?

Like, do you want to break up?

And I was like, no, I love you.

And it's not your fault.

And I'm sorry that you went through that.

And if you want to talk about it, I'm here for you.

If you don't, that's fine too.

And whatever you mean, like, you let me know.

And he like cried and he doesn't cry.

And he's, that's when he started crying like a lot.

And I was like, okay.

And then he was like, I think I'm going to get a sponsor and start doing my steps.

And I was like, that's great.

I think that's a great idea.

I think I support that.

And then I had asked him if he wanted to be single during that, because usually you do it in the beginning.

Usually they want you to be single because you're very like vulnerable.

And he was like, no, I really don't.

Like you've been like the only reason I've wanted to do all this.

All this is being triggered because I want to be better for like our future.

And I was like, okay, like, whatever you say, like, you just let me know.

So, when all this was happening, he was like doing his steps.

He was like, he lost his job.

Like,

all of this just happened at once.

And then it was kind of like, I'm not worthy of a relationship.

I'm not worthy of, why do I get to be happy when like other people aren't?

Like, I've hurt so many people in my life.

I don't deserve to have like the happy ending kind of thing.

And like, I've obviously said like, yes, you do, but like, I can't force you.

And then he said he was going to get into therapy.

And as, so then when I called him last week, it was mostly a check-in.

It wasn't really anything like, I wasn't trying to get back together with him.

I wasn't like asking for that.

I was just like, hey, like, I was thinking about you and I was just curious how you were doing.

And how, and he had started the new job, which was like this dream job of his.

And I was like, I just wanted to know how it was going.

And he was like, it's good.

The job's good.

and then he like he was like a little cautious we talked for three hours and to be quite honest i don't even know what we talked about like i almost blanked it out um but he was like i googled you and i was like you he doesn't have social media so i was like you googled me and he's like yeah i wanted to see how you were doing and he like must have googled me like literally monday and i had called him on tuesday because i had just posted a picture from a trip i was on and he was and he was like you look really good and you sound really really good and you sound like you're doing really well and working through your shit more than I am and yada, yada, yada.

And then I like, of course, got a little choked up.

And I was like, I'm not crying because I'm sad and crying because like, that's really nice to hear that someone can see that I'm doing well.

And he's, and then he went into the whole like, I don't, I, I really never wanted to hurt you.

Like I, that was never my intention.

Like, I just didn't know what else to do.

And I was like, yeah, no, I, I understand that.

And like, I'm very aware that like he has a lot of work to do.

But like the things that concern me are like, he was waiting until he started the job to go get a therapist.

Right.

So one of the questions was like, how's therapy?

And he's like, I'm on a waiting list.

I'm like, okay.

Like, he's like, well, well, the, the, the, the one that's like free through my, my company is like, there's a wait list.

I was like, you can afford therapy.

Like, let me just tell you, you can afford it.

like and it might be really beneficial for you to just go someplace else without a wait list yeah like you know what what I mean?

It's just so like, that's like a little bit of a red flag.

Like if he hasn't done that, let me ask you.

And then let me ask you this.

Sorry to cut you off, but I'm sure

we could talk for hours about him.

I'm sure.

When we, this call first started, I was kind of like, yeah, you know, I bet it was like this.

And you said, yeah, but my situation is a little different.

How is your situation different?

And answer it in 20 seconds.

Different than what you said?

Just

from your perspective.

Like you said, but my situation is a little different.

How is it different?

yeah so to me it feels different because like i i have never loved somebody like the way that i love him like they say you want to end up with somebody you live in a cardboard box with yeah and like this is the first person in my life that i've ever felt that way about

and for me it feels like i don't think he truly wants to be alone forever i think

i agree i agree with you there and i think and like and i truly believe like even just talking to him last week like i truly believe it's he's gonna end up alone forever and never get through what he needs to get through or he's gonna come search me out one day yeah um because i really don't believe he'll ever start over with somebody else i don't think he has the capacity to um in just the person even like the friend that i knew before yeah okay and maybe that's and maybe that's delusional

i would say that's understandable and normal the way you feel you mentioned after you broke up that you started using it as a positive and got back into therapy and started working out and lost 46 pounds.

And that's, that's an incredible accomplishment to be healthier, you know, in that regard.

When I hear you say that, and then you, and then you describe your relationship with your ex-boyfriend, it feels good to be needed.

We all love to be needed.

And he certainly makes you feel needed.

He's so lost without you.

That must make you feel very important,

feel very special.

Yeah.

But

while I commend you for not wallowing in your sadness and using this breakup to use that energy into yourself.

I think the fact that you weren't in therapy, that you weren't taking care of your physical health, like is an example of how much energy this relationship took out of you that stopped you from taking care of yourself so much.

The fact that you were in a position to

make that drastic of self-improvement of yourself speaks to like, you should be in a relationship that allows you to be able to still take care of yourself.

And I just think that's just something to note.

I will say we did go to the gym together.

So like that was something that I really loved about our relationship was he pushed me to go.

I was very lazy and he pushed me to get back into the gym and do all that.

Well, we had, that's actually something that probably strained our relationship a little at the end.

So I had a cancer scare.

I'm sorry.

And I did, and it was very much adamant that like something was wrong.

So that was part of one of the reasons why like I stopped going to the gym and things like that wasn't because of him.

I mean, he was definitely stressing me out because he was very worried about not getting a job and like all the turmoil happening in his life.

But I also was like having a lot of like health issues.

And that's another thing that like is a red flag is

he knew my grandmother ended up in the hospital.

My, I was going in for tests for this sickness that I was having literally the next week or like during like while he was breaking up with me.

It was almost like he got it, he got his new job.

And then he was like, kind of like found like the light right and then ended it with me and then my whole life was like oh okay wait where's my sport like where's my person to like stick by me in sickness and health like yeah probably i might die i might have yeah i probably felt very unfair yeah it's like i it was terrible and then like my car got totaled i think like two weeks later it was like it was like a mess like and i was just like what what the

like what is going on like why like why do you get to have me help you?

And then, and he never checked in, like, he knew about all the stuff.

And he was like, Well, what was I supposed to do?

Like, asked if you were okay.

I'm like, Yeah, kind of, maybe, like, maybe just a little.

Like, and he's like, I didn't want to like lead you on or do it.

And I understand that.

I think that was probably for the best, but it was still like, dude, what?

And then, like, even just like talking to him recently, it was like, he just kept saying on the phone, he was like, Are you going to be okay if I don't ever want to be in a relationship again, like with anybody?

And I was like,

and he like kept saying it.

And I was like, stop, like, yes.

Like, yeah.

There isn't really a choice.

Like, if you decide that that is your journey and you want to be alone forever and that is the, the path that you want to go down, like, yeah, I'll be okay.

Like, then, I mean, there's nothing, you just got to get on getting on.

Like, there's nothing you can do about it.

What do you want me to sit at your door and cry and beg for you?

Like, I can't.

He probably does.

He probably does.

I mean, listen, like, we could play therapist and, you know, him losing his job, you know, scratched in an abandonment issue that he has, then made him feel unwilly.

And maybe he just beat you to the punch and broke up with you because he was worried that someday you're going to break up with him and leave him.

And, you know, maybe that's all true and possible.

There was a lot of project.

Yeah.

This is going to be a really dumb thing to say, but or an analogy.

But I saw something online about a parent who was complaining about the school that their kid was at.

And because I guess they were some sort of mathematician and their kid came home because their teacher taught them that one divided by zero is zero.

And then they wrote into the school and they were just like,

that's not true.

It's undefined.

And like, I think in a lot of schools, they teach that one divided by zero is zero.

And technically, it's not true.

It's like, I guess, a lazy way of teaching math.

The reason why I thought about it is because you called in and said, like, I'm wondering if I should move on or if I should wait.

There's no such thing as waiting, so to speak.

You know, like there's no, that's not really an option.

You could sit and do nothing.

You could emotionally be in this relationship without him.

I, I've done that, right?

You know, a lot of us do that.

A lot of us get broken up with, but emotionally, we are still very much in that relationship.

That's the relationship we wake up and think about.

We go to bed thinking about that relationship.

We, we, we take ourselves off, you know, off the field, so to speak.

So I guess you could do that, but like, that's, that's, doesn't really get you anywhere.

It's almost like it's not really an option.

Like to your point, like you said, you gotta, you gotta live your life, you know?

And so when you're sitting here saying, well, Nick, do I move on or do I wait for him?

You know, like you moving on isn't, is what?

It's continuing to take care of yourself, continuing to go to therapy, maybe being open to dating, you know, just being open to dating is what?

You know, the dating world out there is so challenging.

You even said yourself, I never felt like, I've never felt about anyone else as I felt about him.

So like there's no guarantee that just because you're open to dating, that next week you're going to, you know, like.

When people say, oh, should I, should I, should I move on or wait around?

Like as pessimistic as as we are about our love lives, in that moment, we ask ourselves that question.

We almost like act as if like, if I decide to move on tomorrow, I'm going to fall in love with another person, then what am I going to do?

As if like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, that's the only time that we're optimistic about our love life is as if like, well, if I move on, then I'm going to leave them behind because I'm going to fall in love tomorrow.

And I guess all I'm saying is you only have one answer.

And that answer is to, yeah, live your life, make healthy decisions, challenge yourself to not emotionally and mentally stay in this relationship that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want or can be in.

The games, you know, like it's normal that he's asking these questions that don't make sense.

And you're both playing this game because you both care about each other.

You know, there's clearly still feelings there.

There's a lot of trauma on his side that he hasn't worked through.

And so all you can do is just simply live your life and not put yourself on the sideline and be open to the possibility that while you haven't met anyone else up until this point that you've loved more than him, it doesn't mean you won't, right?

Every girlfriend I've ever had, I felt like I loved them the most until I realized that I didn't anymore and didn't want to be with him, right?

And, you know, I'm not the person who thinks that there's one person that I, it took me 40 years to meet the person that I consider the love of my life.

You don't know what life's going to bring you.

What you just, you just have to be open to living your life.

And you're not to sound cliche, you only got one of them, right?

And you even got a scare that made life feel more precious than most people even realize.

So just

be an active participant in your life and just be open to the possibilities.

And in the meantime, when you don't have what you want, just make sure you're doing everything you can to put yourself in the best position possible, whether it's your job, whether it's your health, whether it's just your mental health, your physical health, relationships with friends.

You know, your family, even though it sounds like you have a really, you know, good relationship with your family, you can, you know, like you just, you never know.

Life is precious.

Life is, life is short.

You know, you could sit there and pine over this guy who, for whatever reason, whether, you know, he, he doesn't know what's good for him or not and doesn't appreciate what he had with you, or maybe he's just not there.

He is not capable of being the boyfriend that you need or deserve.

And he has to do the work on his own.

He has to go through these steps.

He has to go to therapy on his own.

It's nice that you nudged him and

hopefully that call that you gave him and that kind of like, hey, man, I think maybe there's other therapists in this world, you know, other than the one you're on the waiting list.

Maybe that will be the thing he needed to go in.

But it's also, it's just, it's not your responsibility.

In the meantime, don't waste your life and your time trying to

be

somebody.

for someone who you can't help in this moment.

It's not your job.

So it's not about whether you should move on or wait.

You should just go live your life and make the most of this life.

And

maybe he'll take care of his shit.

And maybe you'll go out and date and not meet anyone.

And

in the meantime, he'll get healthy and maybe you'll reconnect and you will laugh about the crazy shit he said to you.

about not wanting to have kids or not wanting to be with you anymore.

He will probably date someone else if it's not going to be you.

Like the fact that he said, I don't ever want to be in a relationship again is just a crazy thing to say in a moment where he felt a little crazy.

He will certainly try again at some point if it's not with you.

And I hope it's not with you if he's not actually healed.

He probably should be single while he goes through this journey if he's willing to go through this journey.

Yeah.

And that's what we talked about.

Like, I mean, he, he, he carries a lot of guilt.

I mean, even when we were dating, he carried a lot of guilt for the girl he dated previous to me that I knew him to be dating because he

basically they broke up and got back together and he shouldn't have.

Like it was very clear he did not love her.

It was they had been been dating for a year they never said i love you like she had told him but he didn't feel it back and then they broke up finally because he was like this is crazy and

then she like reached out and he was like no let's try again and i and i remember him texting me about it and i was like are you sure like that's what you want to do and this was like before i even had any feelings for him at all and he was like and then in hindsight like even when we were dating she would reach out to him and i was like if you want to call her you can call her and talk to her if you want he's like It's not going to do anything, I just feel bad for what I did.

And I was like, Yeah, like, I get that.

And, like, that was his biggest thing when he was breaking up with me.

Was like, he sent me like three days.

Like, I think I sent it in the email that I sent.

It was like a text message.

And, like, we didn't really send, like,

we hung out a lot.

We lived in the same city.

We were very close by.

So, we didn't like send like crazy, like

ooey gooey text messages too often.

And one night I was sleeping, and he sent me this text.

And it it was like, I just wanted you to know that you are the love of my life.

And I know you're sleeping, but like, I will do anything to make this work with you, you and I.

Like, you are like it for me.

And like, you're my person forever, no matter what.

Like, you wrote it down.

He read it through.

He hit send.

And I kid you not, two days later, I was getting broken up.

So it was like, to me, it was, it was a lot of like, what was real, what was not.

Like, were you trying to convince yourself that you felt that way?

Or like, did you actually feel that way and now you're just like self-sabotaging like i don't i don't know and i think um when i wrote in which was like a little while ago i i did really think like oh should i should i wait and now i don't think that like i went on my first date since him last night um it was fine like

the guy was fine we went for drinks it was it was whatever but it i i didn't die and i survived it and it was okay and do i want to do it again anytime soon Maybe not.

But

yeah, it was just more of like, I think with him, it feels like he's self-sabotaging.

And I wish he could just see that like he does, he does deserve love.

And I hope and he would be a great father if that's the choice that he decides one day.

And he would be, he is, he was, he's the guy that bought me flowers every two weeks for eight months.

Like he came over when I was sick and brought me medicine without even asking, even when he was busy.

Like he never, he always thinks like he was a burden.

And he really really wasn't.

And I think that's, I think what I struggle with is I can't like call him every day and be like, you know, you weren't a burden.

Like, you know, I know, but he's, he's not, he's not,

he may not have been a burden, but he's not, he wasn't, maybe a burden to himself.

Yeah.

Clearly, what he clearly is, is not in a position to, he's not mentally okay and not healthy in a way.

And he has work to do.

He can acknowledge it.

You can acknowledge it.

It's obvious to anyone who knows him.

And so I think you have to accept that reality and not try to cherry pick what was good and what really worked and why it wasn't that as bad as you thought it was.

I mean, like, again, you guys care about each other.

I just think you have to remember that, like, I don't doubt that you're feeling your feelings about him and how intense it is, but he is an intense guy.

And I think it's easy to have intense feelings about intense people.

And so it doesn't shock me that your feelings are so intense about him versus other people you've dated.

Again, he makes you feel very needed.

When he's on, he's on.

And so he validates you in great ways.

But again, there's also a lot there that is obviously a red flag and shit he needs to deal with.

And if he doesn't deal with it, it'll eventually

manifest its ways

as toxic ways, especially like, you know, let's say you guys ignored all this, got married, had kids.

And then, you know, then you're stuck.

It's not as easy as waking up and saying, hey, can I be honest with you?

I think we should break up.

And that creates a lot of stress.

And stress is a huge trigger for people who aren't mentally healthy.

So I think you have to just accept, and maybe that the healthiest choice he made was to break up with you.

Did he communicate in a way that felt fair or honest?

You know, he probably doesn't fully know how to do that, but it probably was a healthy choice he made, knowing that, like, again, this is a person who's ignored healing for the time being.

And maybe

your relationship was maybe a good reason to not, it almost masked the healing you needed.

He did say, like, in the the end like he was like i think i can date you for two more months but in two months you're gonna hate hate my guts like you don't hate me now because i haven't shown you like the withdrawal that i'm going i'm going to show you if i continue to do this and i think that was very like self-aware and i think it just pisses me off because i'm just like how can you be so self-aware of all of this and not know how to like get yourself through it or help or like talk to someone that you could talk to and i just think like not ready the other thing is that it didn't happen.

Like, these feelings started in January.

And like, like the doubts, I think, um, is what I was told.

And he went through all of January, all of February, writing love letters about being seven years old, eating Thai food on our couch, like, like, he, having children, like, all this stuff.

Like, he, like, kept up the charade and kept saying how much he loved me every day and how much I was this person forever.

Maybe.

And I just think for me, it's just like, you know it was like hey yeah it just it just sucks yeah yeah it does suck yeah it was real what was not i'm sure it was all real and i know and i you know it's just again and i know it's it's for the best for now for now i do i mean but you you have to let you know convince myself that if you can say for now you still have to let go you still have to move on and let and live your life yeah and to to sit there and waste your energy you know what real of course it was real again did he have did he have complicated feelings about his feelings for you and his mental health?

And did he, did he,

these, these withdrawal feelings he mentioned, you know,

maybe those love letters were him trying to convince himself about how he felt about you, knowing what he had with you, knowing that you're a special person, knowing that he was grateful of the relationship.

But again, this is not about your relationship.

This is not about you.

This is about him.

You know, and you can't fix him.

And while he may be able to recognize it, maybe he's just not on the

your timelines are different.

He's going at his pace, not your pace.

You are a mentally healthy person.

You know, you were able to have your spirits crushed and go through heartbreak.

Well, I mean, listen, like, no one's a mentally perfect person, but like it takes a mentally healthy person to have their heart broken and choose to like not sulk forever and

deal with it.

You know, you dealt with your shit.

in a ways that he's probably not capable of dealing with.

And so you're comparing how you deal things with how he's dealing thing.

And it's apples and oranges.

And so.

Yeah, I think, I think it's for the best, but it does, it just also sucks because I made it very clear when we started dating that like I really like valued his friendship more than anything.

And

that was the cost of doing business.

I know.

I wasn't willing to take the risk if he wasn't like.

sure and he was so sure.

It was just like, okay, obviously.

You didn't make the wrong decision.

I don't think you should regret your decision.

And that was a silly thing for you to ask him.

And now going forward, you know not to ask such silly things if you do develop feelings for a friend in the future.

Because

he's a heterosexual male and friend or not.

heterosexual friend seps 99% of the time have an expiration date.

And that expiration date is when you meet your person.

And so all you did is

he always says that.

It's like.

and i and i think i think the other disrespectful thing and the thing that i'm struggling the most with is like the term love bombing has come up so many times like he's like well i think we love bombed each other and it's like no we like fell in love and we love each other and then it got too intense for you and that's i mean i mean if anything you love bomb me but like also neither of you love bomb each other you had sincere feelings that's how you felt you didn't say the word i loved you is a coercive measure or a way to manipulate or to get what you want.

That's not what that is.

He's just misusing the word.

Right.

Yeah, I just hate.

I hate when people like say that.

I'm like, don't disrespect the relationship that we did have and the good that it was.

With

love bomb.

You have the same.

Your problem is being the healthy emotional person is, is like, again, you need to, you get it, you got to get out of your head.

You are, you know, and I say this as someone who's, knows what it's like to do exactly what you're doing.

You got to stop it.

Because if I honestly, if I had the time, you would stay on this call for the entire day and we would talk for hours and you could go get a bottle of wine and not smoke some weed and you would just fucking talk about it over and over and over and over and over till I said, I got to go.

And you have to stop yourself.

You can't, you know.

It's, you have to, you got to stop.

You got to stop ruminating about this relationship, reminiscing about it, just talking about it.

You have to let go.

You have to stop thinking about him.

You have to check yourself.

You know, you have to recognize that he's popping in your head and you have to find ways to get it out of your head and think about other things.

That's your problem.

That's what you need to work on.

The rest will work itself out.

I agree.

Okay.

But I commend you for going on that date.

That's a start.

And just check yourself from talking with yourself about him or talking with your friends, you know, or even your therapist.

I think the time has come.

Yeah, I think the time has come to like what, like, stop.

We've talked about it.

Let's stop talking about it now.

Yeah.

And let's just see what happens in life.

Okay.

All right.

Well, sounds like you're doing pretty good.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

And just

it'll, it'll work itself out.

It really will.

If

he continues to make healthy choices, he either will or he won't.

And that will, and that will figure, and that will be the deciding factor.

And he's not your responsibility.

No, not my problem anymore.

Okay.

All right.

Well, good to meet you.

Take care.

And I will have a good rest of your day.

You too, okay.

All right.

Bye-bye.

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