E955 Ask Nick - How To Take Charge of Your Dating Life

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Speaker 3 How's it going? Good. How are you? Good.
What's your name?

Speaker 4 Jenna.

Speaker 1 Hi, Jenna. How old are you?

Speaker 3 I'm 37. How can I help?

Speaker 4 I'm wondering if I can mourn a friendship while still keeping our business alive.

Speaker 1 So this is a business partner that you hate now?

Speaker 4 Well, I don't know that I would say I hate. No, I would definitely say I don't hate.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 yeah, our friendship has just fallen apart over the last two years. And

Speaker 1 woman friend, male friend?

Speaker 4 Male friend.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Why is it falling apart?

Speaker 4 There are several reasons. So just kind of going back,

Speaker 4 he and and his wife started the business in 2014.

Speaker 4 I joined them a year later as their third partner.

Speaker 4 Business was fantastic for years, just growing. And we, it was the best.
It was the best time. I mean, they became my best friends.
My husband and I did everything with them.

Speaker 4 In 2020, obviously with everything that happened with COVID, we had a lot of financial troubles surrounding the business and just not being able to operate. And then the

Speaker 4 real tragedy of it is a lot of the isolation from COVID.

Speaker 4 My best friend, his wife, so the other partner suffered extreme postpartum depression and psychosis. And in 2021, took her life.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 since then, you know, just trying to rebuild the business while dealing with the grief of her loss um him and i have definitely become different people we just we mourn in different ways and

Speaker 4 um our personalities have changed and so

Speaker 4 there have been a lot of things that have happened since then uh

Speaker 4 not even related to her death but just related to different frustrations within the business and decisions being made without consulting, you know, me, even though I'm his partner and things like that that have just caused me to lose trust in him as a business partner.

Speaker 4 The biggest issue being that

Speaker 4 fast forward about a year and a half after she passed,

Speaker 4 he,

Speaker 4 sorry, let me back up just quick. We were opening a new brand of our business and

Speaker 4 a new store.

Speaker 4 And we had hired someone who was coming in to be the manager, to run the whole operation.

Speaker 4 And him and I were going to be kind of like just step back high level, more owners, not operators in this business, because we had been and still are operators in the other business and wanted to continue that while growing this other brand.

Speaker 4 So she had been hired for that purpose. Within three weeks of her arriving, he told me he had feelings for her.

Speaker 4 And so I asked him, hey, please do not pursue this relationship right now.

Speaker 4 If you guys become a thing, that means I have to be the one to kind of manage her, to discipline her if it comes to it, to hold her accountable to goals. And right now, I'm not in a space for that.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 4 you know, 14 months prior to that conversation,

Speaker 4 his wife, my best friend, had passed. Six months after my friend died, my...

Speaker 4 baby brother died. And then five months later, my dad died.
And so this conversation was happening three weeks after my dad passed.

Speaker 4 My daughter had just turned one

Speaker 4 two weeks prior to this conversation. And

Speaker 4 two weeks and five days prior to the conversation, I had found out I was pregnant with my second child. So I was just in like,

Speaker 4 I don't, I'm not the type that likes to use hormones as an excuse, but like I was, I was on the roller coaster.

Speaker 4 Like I just, I was in a space where I could not handle any more kind of drama, turmoil, grief, any of it. I just needed like a pause.

Speaker 4 So I asked him, hey, please, can you just get to know her as a person? Can we get the business open? Like literally, we weren't even open yet. Can we just try to get this on a growth track? And then

Speaker 4 you can pursue whatever you want to pursue. So that was.

Speaker 4 first week of February. By Valentine's Day, they had gone on a date.
He was bringing her flowers, like full courtship. And for me like right that moment was like okay

Speaker 4 there is no consideration for our feelings in this friendship anymore and to me that's that's where it's like with a big eye-opener it's like this isn't a friendship this is did did he respond to you at all when you asked him this yeah he said he would he said he wouldn't pursue her And to this day, he will defend that he did not, that he will say she pursued him.

Speaker 1 Samantha.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 1 yeah so um and my my response is well you brought her flowers so she responded in like in kind and he said well they were friendship flowers i mean again they're all semantics and like it wasn't just like you it wasn't about whether who's pursuing who it was hey please don't engage in this relationship was you know and now he's using your very specific words against you is stupid you know it's again semantics but right um so that that is his response so this is all very recent like so you're pregnant now no no my no my son's um 18 months now so this all happened um in the beginning of 2023 so this is about two years ago okay but the relationship with this new woman is recent uh no that so that was also 2023 they're actually now married and have a child oh okay all right yeah I guess, I mean, in some ways, I mean, I guess he was right about her.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, how did that change change your decision tree knowing that, like, and completely understand your concerns initially in the relationship?

Speaker 1 And again, I'm sure you were probably obviously both going through this incredibly devastating trauma. And yeah, so he didn't listen to your request.
He pursued her, but like, wouldn't she know it?

Speaker 1 They fell in love, got married, now have a kid. And, you know, good, good for him.

Speaker 1 And the business is up and running. And how's that, you know, how did, how did that, from an actual just operational standpoint, did, how are things going in that direction?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I think that's kind of a lot of my question

Speaker 4 is, is kind of like, do the ends justify the means type of situation? Like they ended up together. So, and I genuinely do want him to be happy.

Speaker 4 Am I just holding on to a grudge of like, well, I, or this feeling of like, I, I was right and need to be validated,

Speaker 4 even though it wouldn't change anything.

Speaker 4 But I think for me, what happened what I constantly go back to and what i have trouble with is when we have this conversation i said i see this going one of two ways first way is you guys don't make it

Speaker 4 you break up and then i'm left filling her position and her role and having to kind of like pick up all the pieces or you guys do make it you get married she leaves the business to raise your kids and I'm left picking up all the pieces.

Speaker 4 And in either scenario,

Speaker 4 I don't want that outcome. I don't want to be fully invested or like time-wise into this business.
We have three other businesses that

Speaker 1 couldn't you hire, replace her?

Speaker 4 Well, we, yeah, we could, but I will say we've had a lot of trouble with just trying to find the right people.

Speaker 1 Sure. I mean, good help is always hard to find for sure.
Right. But the reality is, is they, they did make it and they got married and

Speaker 1 found a child from it, you know? Right. So, yeah.
I mean, if, um,

Speaker 1 and business is business, you know, like it's,

Speaker 1 you know, and good help is always hard, you know, like,

Speaker 1 anyway, so, yeah. So, say more.

Speaker 4 So, we're, we're, yeah, so the business is when, so I, okay, so. I went on maternity leave when I came.

Speaker 4 So, like I kind of said in the beginning, these are similar businesses, similar industry, but different brands.

Speaker 4 And when I came back from maternity leave, we had a conversation and the conversation was, you're going to take the new brand. I'm going to take the established brand.
There was no discussion.

Speaker 4 There was no.

Speaker 1 He told you this?

Speaker 4 Yes, he told me this, which I. had an issue with just just the way it was like, this is what's happening when, again, like we're equal partners like i feel like i should have some sort of say in

Speaker 4 what i'm doing um because in the because previously we had always been like these are my strengths these are your strengths let's more from like an operational standpoint in each business do what we're good at instead of let's separate the business and you do everything here and I'll do everything here just because there are certain things that I'm not good at that I don't like I don't have any desire to do nor do I do them well So I, you know, try to stay away from those things or hire someone to do them.

Speaker 4 So when I came back from internal leave, that was the discussion.

Speaker 4 And of course, I got the brand with this, that was the newer one that was less established that was also with his girlfriend at the time,

Speaker 4 now wife.

Speaker 1 And again, the one that you initially hired her to operationally run.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 4 But like,

Speaker 4 the brand wasn't, it's not that it wasn't doing fine. It was doing fine.
Well, no, actually, no. Let me take that back.
It was not doing fine.

Speaker 4 It was like losing upwards of $15,000 to $20,000 on money.

Speaker 1 But it's not like that was your bottom line and his. You guys were still sharing in all the profits or losses operationally.
It was just like more work for you.

Speaker 1 And he was taking over something that was kind of like running its, not running itself, but like less issues, less problems, you know.

Speaker 4 For sure. For sure.

Speaker 4 And so, yeah, so I got the business.

Speaker 1 And then did you push back at all when he presented this new, like, here's what we're going to do?

Speaker 4 The first conversation, I was kind of just like, not so much silent, but really like taken aback and just kind of took it all in.

Speaker 4 And then we had a second conversation to where I addressed it and was like, hey, you just told me what was happening.

Speaker 4 You didn't give me any sort of like where your head was with everything and why I should be in this one versus that one and like why you came to this decision.

Speaker 4 And I feel like we need to be able to communicate communicate those things to each other yeah so we had a secondary conversation about it and um how did he handle that his uh

Speaker 4 toxic trait let's say is he's great at verbally taking accountability for things like fantastic he'll apologize he will say like i you know i shouldn't have done that but then no there's zero behavioral change So in the conversation, he was remorseful and, and, you know, said he shouldn't have done it that way.

Speaker 4 But then, you know, fast forward two weeks and he's back to just like unilaterally making decisions and not having important conversations with me and going back to the same sort of behavior that caused frustration.

Speaker 1 I guess so. My question is, like, you, like, as you mentioned, like, you have equal, like, legally, like, it's just as much yours as his, right?

Speaker 1 Like, how you guys operationally go about your business might be one thing. And certainly, hopefully, you don't have to get as messy as bringing invoke your legal rights.
But, like,

Speaker 1 what's stopping stopping you from just being like no

Speaker 1 i'm not like you know he can't give you orders he can tell you what to do you don't have to do it he can't fire you so like what is stopping you when he when he when he crosses a line and and starts you know telling you what to do or or just making decisions on your own what's stopping you from

Speaker 1 pushing back and just saying we're not doing that you know and and forcing the forcing his hand to respect your position in the company.

Speaker 4 I think part of it is

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 feel somewhat like indebted to him in a way. I

Speaker 4 switched careers to do. So I was originally in finance and it was fine, but it was just boring.
It wasn't what I wanted to do. And then

Speaker 4 met him and his wife.

Speaker 1 They brought you in, right? So they didn't have to, but they did.

Speaker 1 And so you're grateful for that.

Speaker 4 Grateful for that. And yeah, throughout COVID, I mean, he took a pay cut so that I could continue to get like my income.
So it's just like those things like that, where I feel.

Speaker 1 So he's made sacrifices. Yeah.
Yeah. Nevertheless, if you think this is like a toxic trait, like,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 1 And do you think it's like a conscious thing? You know, do you think he's just like placating you by apologizing?

Speaker 1 Or do you think it's just more like life comes at him fast and he feels like in the moment, he's just making a decision that whatever he thinks is best for the company and he does it.

Speaker 1 And then he's just like not working, you know, he's just like, it's not, he's just not being considerate to his partner to say, I want to run this bio.

Speaker 1 He's just like, I don't know, just like, this is what, this is what we need to do. I'm just going to fucking do it.
Or do you think it's more malicious than that?

Speaker 4 No, I think it's the former.

Speaker 4 In fact, he has he has literally said exactly that like i just i will make the best decision for the company and i think you would agree with my decision making so that's why i do it how often have you decided like

Speaker 4 girlfriend now wife aside how often do you disagree with his decision making on the big things um there have been a couple instances where it's where i would have liked to have been considered like there was a

Speaker 1 difference between like to have been considered and saying hey man like

Speaker 1 I wouldn't have done that. And like, the fact that you, you know, so just, I want to be clear, there's two very different situations.
So, what is it? Is it more the former or the latter?

Speaker 4 No, it's more the it's it's more the

Speaker 4 I should have been a part of that conversation. You should not have made that decision without consulting me.
There have been instances like,

Speaker 1 but was it the process or the decision that you had the problem with?

Speaker 4 The decision.

Speaker 1 So you didn't like his decision. Correct.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there have been big, big

Speaker 4 money costing us issues, like

Speaker 4 moving forward with certain projects.

Speaker 1 What did he say to that?

Speaker 4 He says, I'll do better next time. And then the next time happens and we're in the same exact position.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Again, I don't know how big these decisions are, but when money is involved and he's costing you money, like he can certainly understand that. Let me ask you this.

Speaker 1 Do you know if you were right or he was right about these decisions you didn't agree with that he went forward without you?

Speaker 4 On the ones that we've had issues with, I've been right in every single one of them.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 So it's like, for example, moving forward with like a certain marketing company that they want 30 grand up front.

Speaker 4 And then

Speaker 4 within three months, they're not performing. So it's, it's, and we get like none of the money back.

Speaker 4 Or we've had issues with lease agreements where there was something that was put in the lease that shouldn't have been in there. And now we're on the hook for $500,000 XYZ.

Speaker 4 So things like that, where I just like things were signed unilaterally. I was not brought into conversations when it's like, my name's on this side.

Speaker 1 How is he allowed to spend without your approval?

Speaker 4 Because he does.

Speaker 4 I don't have a good answer for it because it's like he shouldn't, but he just, he'll do it because he thinks money is,

Speaker 4 I don't know, more of a a concept than a like he'll just like oh we'll just make it back what do you think what if we don't what do you think uh

Speaker 4 i guess how do you how do you feel like he values your role in this company that that's a big part of it is i don't think i think he sees me as his like not assistant but like the the doer like he

Speaker 4 thinks of himself as the visionary.

Speaker 1 So you're Steve Jobs and you're Wozniak kind of thing.

Speaker 4 Right. Like, yeah, like, yeah, I go out and do the thing and he comes up with the thing.

Speaker 1 What's your relationship like with

Speaker 1 his new wife?

Speaker 4 It's really hard for me to

Speaker 4 have a good relationship. I mean, we have a fine, cordial relationship.
I know she would like there to be more.

Speaker 3 Oh, she would.

Speaker 4 But it's really hard for me to separate. And I think that's kind of like the crux of what I'm asking kind of help for is how do I separate relationship, friendship from business?

Speaker 4 Because my feelings towards her are too wrapped up in

Speaker 4 you did not deliver on what we brought you out to do, on what we paid you for,

Speaker 4 and now you have you want like a friendship, but my

Speaker 4 life

Speaker 4 is worse off because

Speaker 4 of this business and the position now I am in to try to save this business. And I

Speaker 4 maybe incorrectly like assign blame to them for that.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, I, as far as that relationship goes and the fact that you asked him not to date her and he didn't listen to you and they ended up getting married and having kids, I definitely think you need to let that go.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I mean, like,

Speaker 1 you know, I, I,

Speaker 1 you were wrong, you know, like, and you weren't wrong about how it would impact your life. You were just wrong about his love, his, his personal life.

Speaker 1 Like, you just have to be happy for him.

Speaker 1 The friend side of you needs to be happy that this man lost his wife in a very tragic and sad way and was able to find happiness again in ways that many people in his position never do.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 to hold a grudge by for him not making irrational decisions that, yeah, impacted you for sure.

Speaker 1 I think just I think you need to offer him some grace.

Speaker 1 So that

Speaker 1 in the other aspects of business where he doesn't, you know, check in with you and does things that he shouldn't do from a business standpoint, that you can just, you can, you can think more clearly about how you really feel about a situation so that you can address it honestly.

Speaker 1 So with that, I think you need to just, yeah, especially, because I was curious if she wanted to be close with you, because I was wondering if like, did she kind of like, you know, you, you were his ex-wife's best friend.

Speaker 1 You know, I was, I wasn't sure, you know, but if she's embracing you, I would and lean into that.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's only from, even from a business standpoint, keeping her at arm's length and holding a grudge against her for something that was outside of her control. I mean, like,

Speaker 1 she fell in love with a guy that, sure, she got a job. It's happened before.

Speaker 1 It wasn't like, certainly, it wasn't like they were, he's he's hr you know so like he took a risk it worked out they fell in love they had a kid and you certainly don't want unnecessary contention where he feels like he has to um protect his relationship over his business partner you know it's just like it's it's it's unnecessary

Speaker 1 drama and tension and energy that like you just you kind of need to get over again so that you can like

Speaker 1 address the more relevant issues with a clear mind

Speaker 1 and not allow them to project any like, you know, because right now they would be in a position to like make excuses, but like, oh, well, you're just, you don't even allow her to come in.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like, you know, you don't, you know, it's like, do you have an issue? Like, you blame it on

Speaker 1 pet, you know, grudges. Right.
And it would, they would be partly right.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 1 So yeah, I would, I would let that go if you can because they were right and then as far as the other stuff i think you just you know you got to be a little bit more stern and you have to be willing to say no you know and say hey man like i i can't i don't one i i don't want to keep doing what i'm doing in the manner in which i'm doing and two i can't you know i'm burning out uh i need i need you to step in and help and you apologize for things that you i don't feel like you're sorry for because it doesn't change what you're doing.

Speaker 1 And then at some point, you're just going to have to invoke the power that you do have and try to stop him from doing it and be, you know, I don't know, a little bit more difficult in that regard.

Speaker 4 We've had that conversation that you said at the very end: I'm burnt out, I need help

Speaker 4 twice in the last three weeks, four weeks. And

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 he'll help.

Speaker 4 His way of helping is, what do you need help with?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I can appreciate the

Speaker 4 asking for help, but it's like,

Speaker 4 I am working from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.
Some days. It's like, I just need you to come in to the store and just

Speaker 4 be the person who's there.

Speaker 4 But he does not want to do that.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 The difference is you're willing to show up and he doesn't.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 1 I mean, if it comes down to it, you just be like, hey, I'm not coming in today.

Speaker 1 This is what I'm hearing from you. But like, it sounds like he just knows that you're going to show up.
So he doesn't.

Speaker 1 And I hate that.

Speaker 1 Like, it's like, if you've gotten to this point, I mean, if you have a business partner where you're saying, I need help, and he's like, yeah, sure, but like doesn't, you know, when it's like, hey, I, I'm working 18 hours a day every day.

Speaker 1 I can't keep doing that. I got, I got, I got kids too.
I got a family. I got, you know, I'm burnt out.
I'm like, if you're not going to help me, then this, we're going to suffer.

Speaker 1 And you got to make your problem his problem. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And right now, it's still not a problem for

Speaker 1 him because you get the job done.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I don't like like letting people down. I don't like, you know, I have to feel like I have a staff that depends on me and,

Speaker 1 you know, our

Speaker 1 clients. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think you just need to keep fighting with him a little bit, you know, not fighting, but you just, you, you have to be less of a pushover, I guess.

Speaker 1 And then I said, you know, you have to just not take no action for an answer.

Speaker 1 And you have to keep fucking complaining until he, it's just like, dude, is it like, you, you kind of ask, are you going to make me just not show up and let this business fail?

Speaker 1 and have it cost both of us? Because like, again, I just simply can't keep doing this.

Speaker 1 is he working 18 hours a day no and you can say like I don't know maybe maybe we should just get rid of this you know like I don't does is he benefiting from your hard work in a way that like could could he afford for you know what if like just just game theory kind of thing let's say you just said fuck it I'm not I'm quit operationally I'm not I quit like not necessarily because like you again you're playing the role of an employee yeah right like you still own the business you could quit as an employee and then then, like, you know, let the chips fall where they may.

Speaker 1 And if you, if you guys make money, you'll take the money. If you lose money, it won't cost you both.
But, like, operationally, you could,

Speaker 1 you could quit. You know, like, again, I'm not saying you're going to, and I'm not saying that's the best option, but like, just what would you do?

Speaker 1 Is it would it would it cost him so much that he would feel it?

Speaker 4 He, it's, uh, yeah, he has money. We both have money invested into the business.
So, if

Speaker 4 it were to not exist anymore, we'd both

Speaker 4 be out quite a bit, quite a good, good chunk.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's the part you got to get through to him. And quite honestly, if you would just let go

Speaker 1 of the other stuff. So you have this woman who wants to be your friend and you don't want to be her friend over grudge.
She could be an ally, but you're not allowing her to be an ally.

Speaker 4 What way do you see her as an ally?

Speaker 1 Well, I don't know. If you built a relationship, like, not that I want, like, I don't hope this isn't hurtful, but let's, let's just what if that tragedy didn't happen

Speaker 4 how would that have changed the dynamic like would you have gone to her and said how would she have played a role your best friend oh in this situation yeah let's say the tragedy didn't happen but you know he started making decisions that you felt impacted this way would you go to her oh absolutely yeah would she have helped bridge the gap between whatever misunderstanding you and him had so this is where it's like it's really tough because it it this i mean i i i understand you're asking a hypothetical but like this scenario wouldn't this wouldn't be an issue because we would him and i would be way more like compatible we'd still be on the same page with things i feel like because of of her death we'd like we don't communicate as well anymore.

Speaker 4 We don't,

Speaker 4 you know, we, and, and that's where I was saying at the beginning, like the the friendship has just kind of like decayed over time.

Speaker 1 I guess that's what I'm saying, right? Because if I'm hearing you right, there's obviously a lot of pain from that tragedy.

Speaker 1 And you've acknowledged that when it comes to his relationship with his new wife, you have just been kind of like, I don't know, unless like you haven't really fully embraced it.

Speaker 1 Right. And that only creates more tension, right? Right.

Speaker 1 And I'm just saying, like, if you allow this woman who wants to be closer with you, who wants to have you more of a friend, if she was more of your friend, then maybe she could help with that communication that you and him no longer have.

Speaker 1 She was your best friend and you were friends with him through her and you both lost her.

Speaker 1 Right. And I don't know you're feeling, you know,

Speaker 1 I truly sorry this happened. This is a devastating story.

Speaker 1 But yeah, maybe there's some guilt of replacing your friend. I don't know.
Right. I don't know, but work through that therapy, whatever, her.
But, like, yeah, I mean,

Speaker 1 if you feel like there's this like this disconnect that never went away after her passing,

Speaker 1 and you can acknowledge that you have kept his new wife, your former employee, at arm's length, then she could be the solution to these problems.

Speaker 1 What are you feeling right now?

Speaker 4 Um,

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 I understand. I hear what you're saying.
I

Speaker 4 can see that.

Speaker 4 It's hard for me to want to be close with her,

Speaker 4 not just as feeling like a replacement of my friend, but that is.

Speaker 4 That feeling is there for sure. Like,

Speaker 4 it feels like he's replaced her. And so

Speaker 4 part of me like needs to

Speaker 4 not

Speaker 4 in order to

Speaker 4 not necessarily keep her memory alive, but just like honor her, I guess, in a way.

Speaker 1 So yeah, I mean, it makes sense, but it's also not,

Speaker 1 it makes sense, but it's not your approach isn't, I guess,

Speaker 1 A, I don't think it's very healthy. This is not my expert opinion, not an expert opinion,

Speaker 1 but it just doesn't sound that healthy. I understand

Speaker 1 where you're coming from, but you can honor your friend. Like she has nothing to do with the way you honor her.

Speaker 4 Sure.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And obviously he is allowed to find love again.

Speaker 1 And how he went about it, certainly

Speaker 1 we can pick it apart. And whether it was too fast or too soon, I don't know.
Maybe it was, maybe it was a gift for, maybe he sees it like a gift from God. I don't, you know, who knows?

Speaker 1 Like, I don't, again, this is a terrible, terrible tragedy. Like

Speaker 1 the worst kind.

Speaker 1 And I don't know how you get over that. You don't get over it.
You just, you, you, you, you live with it. You, you learn how to manage it.
You know, that's kind of, you know,

Speaker 1 that is part of life, you know, you deal with it. It's a scar.
It will always be there, but you, you work through it and you get to a place where that scar fades and it hurts a little bit less.

Speaker 1 Did you, I mean, how did you grieve?

Speaker 1 It's

Speaker 4 like an ongoing process because

Speaker 4 when she passed, I was

Speaker 4 eight months pregnant with my daughter. And so I think part of that I think I know part of me almost like blocked it a little bit.
I was.

Speaker 1 You had to protect your child.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And I was very much like operationally like

Speaker 4 get the staff into therapy, do group sessions with them. And, you know, just because everyone was so our staff was like a family.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 how can I protect him and get him out of the business so he can be with their daughters and

Speaker 4 and didn't really

Speaker 4 fully like absorb it. People kept checking in on me and I was like, I'm okay, guys, I'm okay.
And generally felt like that.

Speaker 4 And then when my brother died, which was seven months after that, it was like, it like the

Speaker 4 ground underneath me was like disappearing. Like I

Speaker 4 felt like

Speaker 4 my world was literally like crumbling.

Speaker 4 And then obviously five months after that with my dad dying, it was just like

Speaker 4 the compounding effect of these three deaths so close together. It's like I haven't been able to sit down with any one specific one and like deal with it.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 4 yeah, so like my my process has been like all over the place for the last two years. And I mean like that part of the grief process is

Speaker 4 obviously like there's a lot of anger in it. And I

Speaker 4 part of me wonders like how much of that anger is being misdirected at him because I don't want to be blindly angry at him,

Speaker 4 but I also don't, to your point, want to be like a pushover and

Speaker 4 let him do things because like I have one, sympathy for him and then acknowledging like, well, am I overreacting in this scenario? So it's because everything's so

Speaker 4 messy in the way our like families and lives are tied together. It's really hard to like kind of branch apart what is

Speaker 4 genuine like no you were wrong you should not have done that and what is i'm having a a bad day because i saw a picture of my brother in the morning so yeah

Speaker 1 are you i mean i'm it doesn't sound like you have time to deal with your emotions like yeah are you in therapy dealing with this um i yeah i have a like a grief group therapy session that I go to.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 But that's, that's newer.

Speaker 1 It's newer. All new.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 In the last four weeks.

Speaker 1 Okay. Find it helpful?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
There are parts of it of it that are helpful for sure. I'm, I'm like the, I'm, I'm, the type of person who's like, I want steps.

Speaker 4 I want, that's why I wanted to like talk to you because I was like, I, I really value what you like, the advice you give.

Speaker 4 I think most of the time I'm like, yeah, that's exactly exactly how I think about it. And so it's like, with, with my scenario, I feel like I can't see clearly.

Speaker 4 So I want someone to be like, nope, like, let it go.

Speaker 4 Or like, no, like dig in deeper. So it's, I, I like to have, have

Speaker 4 do this, do this, do this.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I don't know if your situation is as simple as you wish it was.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because, yeah, I mean, like I said, I do think as far as her and him and that relationship, yeah, I guess I think you need to go over it. And I think it would serve you well to do that.

Speaker 1 I understand the challenges behind that and the kind of layers of pain and

Speaker 1 the subconscious fallout from you doing that and the guilt you might feel and there's it's all it's a lot there's a lot there right you know I think this group grief thing seems is good right something um individual therapy might be helpful too just to like

Speaker 1 you know workshop this stuff because I mean the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

Speaker 1 you know and the the challenge is because again because you're not I mean my biggest advice to you is you just got it you really got to carve out the time

Speaker 1 to heal.

Speaker 1 And you're not, and you haven't.

Speaker 1 And you have, you have spent the past two years being a mom, focusing on your family, protecting your business, protecting your family, protecting everyone but yourself.

Speaker 1 And it's caught up with you. And, and the good news is

Speaker 1 you still seem pretty put together.

Speaker 1 But my concern for you is that, like, if you don't, if you don't start taking care of yourself,

Speaker 1 it's going to get worse and worse. And you'll get less confident in yourself.
And you will just, you won't really know how to read a situation without biased or, you know,

Speaker 1 you can listen to ASNIC episodes all you want and agree with me, but when it comes to your own life, you're going to have a harder and harder time making.

Speaker 1 you know, clear decisions because you just, you're just,

Speaker 1 you're too broken without having healed. Right.

Speaker 1 I, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as your disconnect with your business partner, I honestly think she's the key.

Speaker 4 All right. I will work on it.
I think

Speaker 1 you don't have to, I'm not saying call her up and be like, you want to be with those friends, but just acknowledge

Speaker 1 that reality and take your time with it, but just be, just try it out. But like, again, that's where, you know, maybe talk about that in

Speaker 1 your group therapy you know

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 it's an interesting situation certainly i think everyone would listen that's for sure it's a fascinating story but i i bet you could probably get some help from that group on on how to deal with that i i would be willing to bet everyone in that group can relate to the feelings of guilt from moving on

Speaker 1 and the and the wanting to protect the legacy of a friend who is no longer with you, whether it's a friend or a child or a parent or a spouse.

Speaker 1 I bet that group can very much relate to that in ways that I can't, you know.

Speaker 1 And I bet they'd be able to help you with that. Because when I said, you know, I think she's the key, there's the idea of it, just like, it does not sit well with you.

Speaker 1 It's like, it's, it's, you really have a mental hurdle clearly over it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think the hurdle is that

Speaker 4 because you you bring up the point, like, you haven't made time to grieve, take care of yourself.

Speaker 4 and that and i don't deny that that's 100 the case and i think my response is well i don't have the time

Speaker 4 because and again

Speaker 4 i fully acknowledge misplaced blame and anger but like because she's no longer a part of the business i'm now having to do my role plus hers

Speaker 1 yeah i think uh i i don't know your day-to-day i would chat like you a you have to make the time right here's an analogy for you. I think what you're saying to me

Speaker 1 is this is what I'm hearing from you. Okay.
I'm driving a car. It's almost out of gas and I'm late for my meeting.

Speaker 1 And if I stop for gas, I'm going to be even more late, but I don't have enough gas to get there.

Speaker 1 So like, which one's the better option? Right. Neither are great, you know, are ideal, but one is a clearly a better solution than the other.
Right.

Speaker 1 Because running out of gas before you get there, you're going to miss the meeting. You're not even going to be late.
You're just not going to show up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you have to find the time. You have to make the time.

Speaker 1 And if that means having just coming clean with your business partner to say, I'm, I'm breaking down. I'm, I'm falling apart.
I'm in group therapy. I need to take some mental health.
I'm not quitting.

Speaker 1 But like, if I, and I need, you know, maybe, maybe that specific ask to say, I'm not doing okay. I'm struggling with everything.
And I, I just, I'm still here. But if I don't deal with this,

Speaker 1 I'm worried about what could happen. I don't think he would ignore that.
I hope not. Certainly.
I think you both understand the value of

Speaker 1 dealing and addressing a mental health crisis.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 1 So I think the big takeaway is remembering that gas analogy and stop making excuses to why. you don't have time to deal with not having been able to deal with it yet.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, just

Speaker 1 don't, she is not going to replace her. She's just not.

Speaker 1 Just put up with her and just let her think, you know, just, I'm not saying use her, but you know what I'm saying? Like, you're, she's not going to replace her.

Speaker 1 So you don't have to even worry about that.

Speaker 1 But you, you can,

Speaker 1 she can be someone who helps you,

Speaker 1 you know? And if, if she's feeling like she's helping you, she will be more inclined to help you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. She probably wants so badly to be welcomed by you because she knows you were best friends with

Speaker 1 her husband's widow.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And she'd probably be willing to do things for you that you probably don't even realize just to curry your favor.

Speaker 1 You don't strike me as someone who takes advantage of people. Quite the opposite.
I think

Speaker 1 people are more inclined to take advantage of you and your work ethic so i think you have to challenge yourself to try to see her as an asset okay um

Speaker 1 and ask for her help are you good you're not good at asking for help that's obvious i don't know why i'm asking that um you need to get better at asking for help yeah

Speaker 4 okay

Speaker 1 it's it's great when you do people want to help people and honestly when you ask for help you give people an opportunity to feel good about themselves everyone wants to be helpful not Most people want to be helpful.

Speaker 1 It makes people feel good. Okay.

Speaker 1 It's like why you, when you call customer service with a problem, you don't say, I have a problem. You say, I need your help.

Speaker 1 You call some up, you say, I have a problem. They're like, well, good for you.

Speaker 1 When people say, can you help me? They're like, oh, well, let's see. I would love to play superhero today.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You got to stop being everyone else's superhero.

Speaker 1 You got to let people be there for you. Okay.
And that's a you problem. You could work on that in your individual therapy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Is this helpful? I will definitely.

Speaker 4 It is. It is.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 Well, thanks for allowing me to help you. Thanks for calling in and asking for help.
It's a step in the right direction.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You do more of that.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I will do more of that.

Speaker 1 Because it sounds like overall, despite all this terrible tragedy,

Speaker 1 you guys got a good thing going. You got a successful business that's doing okay and survived COVID and survived these terrible fucking tragedies.

Speaker 1 And it's still going in a world where a lot of people like don't have successful businesses.

Speaker 1 And it's not something, you know, and there's a disconnect between your partner, but it's not, doesn't sound like incredibly toxic or anything.

Speaker 1 It's just a little bit of, he's trying to get his life fucking on track and he's, you know, and you're trying to get yours, and you're both just kind of surviving. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 She didn't deal with this tragedy. You both did.
Let her help.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 1 okay

Speaker 4 i will

Speaker 1 you did at one point you hired her to do a job and she married doesn't want you know but so so she even has a skill set to literally help you know she's not just like some sort of trad wife you know who's who's just there

Speaker 4 yeah

Speaker 1 okay

Speaker 1 well

Speaker 1 work on reaching out to her okay well more than reaching out to her

Speaker 1 don't run out of gas.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, keep me posted.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Take care.

Speaker 4 Thank you too. All right.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 Bye.

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 3 Hi, I'm Michelle, 33, and I'm trying to be a good mom without cutting out my own.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, talk to me about why you're considering cutting out your mom.

Speaker 3 There's a lot to it, but essentially, to sum it up, my mom is an alcoholic and has been for the bulk of my life. Okay.

Speaker 1 Is she, does she recognize her problem or?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's probably a loaded question, but does she, yeah, does she know she's an alcoholic? Has she said the words, I'm an alcoholic?

Speaker 3 At one point in her life, yes. She did.

Speaker 3 She was actually sober for a little over 10 years at one point.

Speaker 3 But then she decided it was okay to drink again. And if you asked her today, I guarantee she would say she's fine.
She's not an alcoholic.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Well, that sucks. I'm sorry.
Yeah. I mean, so you mentioned you have a daughter.
How old's your daughter?

Speaker 3 She's three.

Speaker 1 Three. Well, congratulations.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 How is that manifesting into

Speaker 1 issues with her being around your daughter?

Speaker 3 Well, I will say it's a good thing because we do not live close. We live states away.

Speaker 3 So that's probably helped my sanity a little bit.

Speaker 3 But, you know, her being a baby and whatnot really wasn't an issue.

Speaker 3 It was more of a me thing and something I was trying to work on myself and just try to like lean on my husband for support and he understands. Right.
And I did draw boundaries with her.

Speaker 3 I set things even when I was pregnant and had a conversation with her.

Speaker 3 That's before she started drinking again, but I still had a reset with her.

Speaker 1 So her starting drinking again is relatively recent?

Speaker 3 I had my daughter like 2021 into 2021. So

Speaker 3 yeah, it was like variant COVID times. She kind of decided to kickstart again.

Speaker 1 That sucks.

Speaker 1 I imagine that happened with a lot of recovering alcoholics. I bet.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's not uncommon for sure.

Speaker 1 Okay, continue.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, essentially, I kind of sat with her, had a very deep conversation, felt that it went well. She wasn't drinking at the time.

Speaker 3 You know, she told me she was going to drink again at some point. My daughter was probably a few months old.

Speaker 3 I'm going through so much at that point in time that that was the last thing I needed to hear.

Speaker 1 Just kind of curious, what made you sit down with your mom to set some boundaries when she wasn't even drinking?

Speaker 3 My therapist.

Speaker 1 But what was your mom doing?

Speaker 3 She's still an addict at the end of the day without the alcohol. She never did the work to work on herself.
She still has addictive tendencies.

Speaker 3 She just fueled the alcohol, switched it with like caffeine. So she was drinking constants amount of just Starbucks and you name it, sugar, right? You know what?

Speaker 3 It's better than alcohol, but it didn't. She never worked on herself.
She never actually went to therapy. She just went to A and stopped drinking.
Great, but she never actually tried to make amends.

Speaker 3 She never had a conversation with me, anyone. Like, she just stopped drinking, which, hey, like.

Speaker 3 Cool, but there's a lot more there. And we never had a great relationship.

Speaker 3 So going into it, I had a lot of anxiety, you know, like, I don't want us not having a good relationship to be a reason why I don't let you in with my daughter is kind of the conversation.

Speaker 3 But I also wanted to set boundaries with her to respect me, you know, as a person, as a mom.

Speaker 3 So that's kind of where that all came in because we kind of butt heads a lot just because she has a hard time not seeing that, you know, I'm not her.

Speaker 3 baby anymore, but she was never really a mom to me. So she think she kind of struggles with that a bit.

Speaker 3 Asked her to go to therapy with me and she declined. So, I mean, that was the best I could do at that point in time.

Speaker 1 Okay. What would cause you from actually limiting your mom's access to your daughter? To the point where she really wouldn't have a relationship with her.

Speaker 3 To where I'd be very concerned about safety.

Speaker 1 Well, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm guessing right now, like, regardless, like, I mean, you can never let your daughter have a sleepover at grandma's house and she could still have a relationship with her.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Like, you know, you could say, mom, I'm not comfortable with you taking her to an amusement park or the zoo and you could, she could still have a relationship with your daughter.

Speaker 1 Like you, it could be supervised visits. So, but like, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Like, but it becomes tricky.

Speaker 1 How so?

Speaker 3 Because I'm the only one. I'm much older than my siblings.
So they don't, they didn't really go through her with alcoholism. Our family is a very joint unit.
I moved away. So I'm dates away.

Speaker 3 They all live in the same state. She's also the first granddaughter, only grandchild.

Speaker 1 Are some of the siblings still minors?

Speaker 3 No, finally 21.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 3 they're not minors technically. Are they mature? No.
Sure.

Speaker 3 They were babied because my mom was trying to make up for lost time for sure. But my parents are also still together.
And that's also a bit of a struggle because I'm very, very close with my dad.

Speaker 3 But two things we don't talk about, politics and my mom, because I think he, it's very hard for me to comprehend why he's stuck with her because we both have been through quite a lot and i get it marriage is something you work at i'm married but i'll never be able to fully comprehend right so the dynamics of the family i think i take on the brunt of like me even like laying down new boundaries that i'm very aware that there will likely be rips within the family due to my mom's antics so give me an example she'll just ostracize or play the victim um and a lot of people feed into that.

Speaker 3 And a lot of people.

Speaker 1 But give me an example about the boundary you might have to set that would ultimately like play.

Speaker 3 Well, I had one already actually that was broken.

Speaker 3 I actually talked to my dad specifically and told my dad, hey, I do not feel comfortable, nor does my husband, when our daughter is alone with my mom.

Speaker 3 because she's a functioning alcoholic, yes, but you don't know when she's drinking. She's probably always drinking.
She always has a red solo cup, right? You never know what's in it.

Speaker 3 And so I told my dad, I don't feel comfortable with her being alone. So you need to be there.

Speaker 3 Like if you want to be present grandparents, and I hate to say this, but it's like, if mom wants to be with her, you need to be there too.

Speaker 1 And what would you be doing in this scenario or your husband?

Speaker 3 They want to give us a date night or something, right? Like go grab some coffee and we'll watch her. while we, while y'all are visiting or something.
So they have a lake house.

Speaker 1 They might take her out on the boat, right?

Speaker 3 We might stay in like things like that. And that sounds great.
But I always am thinking, like, what's going to happen? Like, kind of thing. It's just a concern I always have.

Speaker 1 And I guess, are you saying, like, when you enforce this boundary, then you feel like the bad, like your dad's like, come on, or, and your siblings are like, come on.

Speaker 1 Why are you being like this to mom?

Speaker 3 My siblings, very much. So my dad understands.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 But it's been broken where I think my dad became a little bit more lenient or like, ah, it's fine. And my mom's like taking her out to lunch without telling us.

Speaker 3 And we found out later and we're like, I mean, yeah, everything was fine. But it's like, you did exactly what we asked you not to.
And I said that, but my mom swears she wasn't drinking.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, I still don't have the trust, unfortunately. So like, you can say those things, but it doesn't.

Speaker 3 resolve and there's been instances where my mom has been my daughter was younger and clearly not aware. But the other concern is my daughter is, she's very aware.
She's very smart.

Speaker 3 She's also bilingual. So she, she's, she, she's very aware now.
But, you know, my mom has been drunk with my daughter alone before. And I caught her and I was livid.

Speaker 3 And it was during Thanksgiving. My dad had COVID.
So he was quarantined like in a room. My mom was

Speaker 1 drinking.

Speaker 3 It was the World Cup. And my mom was like, don't worry.
Your dad's right there. You know, we'll talk through the door.
You go watch the game real quick. And we're in a really small town.

Speaker 3 So it's like five minutes away. And I was like,

Speaker 3 okay.

Speaker 3 Like, so we did.

Speaker 3 I had anxiety the entire time. I came back and sure enough, my husband walked into the door.
He's like, hey,

Speaker 3 where's our daughter? She's taking a nap. Okay.
He went and checked on her, came back. We're talking.
And my mom's like, oh, when did y'all get here? Where's your husband?

Speaker 3 I was like, you just talked to him. And then I looked at her and I was like, you're drunk.
Like, you just forgot you spoke

Speaker 3 to your son-in-law. You know, I was just like, at that point, I just, I knew I would react.

Speaker 1 She was napping though.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 And we did have a monitor and we were able to go back. And she had just put her down like five minutes ago, like from when you got home.
So I'm like, she clearly got drunk in a span of time.

Speaker 3 So I, I mean, she was fine, but it just, it's not cool.

Speaker 1 So for sure. So you, when you first call, you said, you know, you're, you're trying to figure out how, well, how did you phrase it?

Speaker 3 I'm trying to figure out how to be a good mom without cutting out my own, essentially.

Speaker 1 But I guess, you know, if we're just taking that statement at face value, right? Like, how close are you to cutting out your mom?

Speaker 3 So I'll also be candid.

Speaker 3 I recently found out I'm pregnant again. Congratulations.

Speaker 3 Thank you. It's very early, but I'm.

Speaker 3 I'm struggling with it even more because

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 never, and I had this realization with my husband, you know, when we got married, we talked about everything. And I never wanted to be that person to be like, put my relationships onto others.

Speaker 3 So I didn't even do it to my husband. He formed his own opinions, right? Obviously, he was always supportive to me and knew of things, but he came to terms in his own time.

Speaker 3 But I don't want to put that upon my daughter. And I, it's very hard.
So I'm essentially worried by cutting out my mom.

Speaker 3 I'm taking that away away from my daughter and but again like but i think there's a huge difference between not taking mom up on the offer of babysitting your kids so that you can watch the world cup and cutting out your mom completely you know yeah but even when we're just around as a family like i will say she's just her antics her just yeah she's still drinking around the family and the thing is it it's still not cool like

Speaker 3 and my daughter will see that. And, you know, like, she's going to recognize that.
And I can tell you from experience, because my mom's mom was an alcoholic.

Speaker 3 And I remember her mom, you know, so there's some, there's some family childhood trauma. I recognize it, but I've sought the help.
My mom has not.

Speaker 3 You know, and I can tell you growing up, I remember a lot of things.

Speaker 3 not just from my mom, but from my grandma, who was an alcoholic. And I don't want that for

Speaker 1 i mean you learned a lot it shaped you but it's not something a four five year old should have to witness so you know i just so here's what i'm hearing from you i'm hearing just a lot of and understandably so anger and resentment towards your mom oh yeah and i'm hearing that you kind of feel a bit on an island as it relates to the rest of your family with your feelings towards your mom.

Speaker 1 Your Your dad might be the closest person who understands your plight, but it's his wife.

Speaker 1 And, you know, like you said, you know, it's not even, it's not even your job to understand why your dad has chosen to stay with your mom.

Speaker 1 And it's not the same as a parent-child relationship or a friend or whatever. You know, I think you're doing everything you can.

Speaker 1 And I think if anything, what you really, if my opinion, what you really need to try to work on is the anger and resentment towards your mom. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, because I don't have the anger and resentment resentment towards your mom, right? So when I hear your story, all I'm hearing is, well, listen, it's not ideal. Certainly not what you want.

Speaker 1 It's certainly not the best case scenario, but your kids, if you allow it, can certainly have a relationship with grandma.

Speaker 1 And yeah, like you're going to have to be extra diligent, more diligent than you'd want to be with your own mom.

Speaker 1 You're not going to be completely able to avoid a moment where your child sees grandma drunk, but you're also not going to raise bubble kids and they're going to to see, they're going to be around

Speaker 1 people.

Speaker 1 Those are always teachable moments. And the fact that you are conscious of this concern and you're aware of it, you will do your part, you know, sort of like, again, the genetics of alcoholism.

Speaker 1 And I don't know how that all works, but in terms of allowing your mom to be a role model to your kids, I think you can make sure that doesn't happen. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, it sucks because as much as like you can love someone and not like them. Right.

Speaker 1 Love my mom. That's called family.

Speaker 1 That's literally the definition of family.

Speaker 3 Not choose family. We say that all the time in this household.

Speaker 3 But, you know, I still do in a weird way, look up to my mom. She worked, you know.
My mom was a hardworking mom. She was the breadwinner at one point.
She showed me like women are strong, right?

Speaker 3 So like there are teachable moments. There are things from her.

Speaker 3 I want more of that side for, you know, my granddaughter or for, excuse me, for my daughter, but it's just like I'm projecting and I recognize that.

Speaker 1 I've done a lot of therapy.

Speaker 3 And I've also learned that in therapy, my resentment and anger, you know, I can continue to work on it, but it probably won't ever fully go away. And that's okay.
Probably not.

Speaker 1 Not without your mom making some changes for sure.

Speaker 3 And that's, that's the point. And I also have to come to terms.

Speaker 3 And it's, it's been a long time in therapy, you know, so it's continuous work, but I don't know that it's, it's an acceptance and it's slowly baby stepping to like the acceptance that she probably won't.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, you took the words out of my mouth.
I guess, you know, I would, I probably would push back a little bit on the resentment and anger that you feel always being there.

Speaker 1 I mean, sure, always. Like, again, like it's a spectrum, I suppose, right? But I think you, you can work on that resentment and anger.

Speaker 3 Neutralize it a little more, maybe?

Speaker 1 So that just simply has a less, less of an impact on your decisions that you make.

Speaker 1 Because right now, what I'm hearing is that it is hard for you to separate your resentment and anger when it comes to just how you see your mom and decisions that you make and just how you generally feel towards your mom.

Speaker 1 And I think that, yeah, there's you probably, you know, because, yeah, you can replace resentment and anger with empathy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I teeter, totter at times, right? Like I, in a weird way, I understand, but it, you know, I also know.

Speaker 1 The part of you that, the part of you that doesn't want to let, I mean, I'm guessing the part of you that doesn't want to let go of the anger and resentment and replace it with empathy, because on some level, subconsciously, I suppose empathy almost sounds like you're giving up and just accepting that this is who your mom is.

Speaker 1 And there's probably a part of you that still believes that your mom is capable. of making positive, positive changes.
She kicked it once, not necessarily in the best possible way.

Speaker 1 And maybe it was maybe, you know, she didn't see it through. And, you know, knowing that she kind of always just in the back of her mind was going to pick back up drinking as if she could.

Speaker 1 And again, replaced alcohol with other forms of sugar, caffeine, whatever. And so if you have no expectations of someone, then it's easy to pity them, you know? It's like,

Speaker 1 you pity people that you have nothing, you know, and pity is, I guess, part of empathy.

Speaker 1 You know, it's a little, I don't know, I don't know where you put in the family, but it sounds shittier than empathy. Empathy sounds nicer than pity.
I'd rather have people's empathy.

Speaker 1 I don't want their pity. Yeah.
But honestly, what's the difference?

Speaker 1 If you need people to empathize with you, then I suppose you need their pity. I don't know.
I don't even know. I wonder what the dictionary says in terms of the definitions.
I'd be curious.

Speaker 1 But what I'm hearing is that's the, that's what you're really struggling with because I'm not hearing we need to cut off grandma. Like, I'm not hearing that.

Speaker 3 We haven't hit that point. I'm worried about that point.
Sure.

Speaker 1 No. But like, let's cross that bridge when it gets there.

Speaker 1 But I also, you know, I think there's a difference between not having the relationship that you wish your kids would have with grandma if she was healthy and the boundaries that you're forced to set with mom that stops her from organically just having your normal grandma child relationship that I imagine you envisioned for yourself and for your mom in a perfect scenario.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that is causing that anger and resentment.
And I'm guessing there's a part of you that's thinking, my own kids aren't enough for you to just deal with your fucking shit.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think going back to it, honestly, part of the, you know, I always didn't have a great relationship, kind of starting to rebuild to some extent with my mom, you know, when she was sober and knew it was never going to be 100, you know, percent, but we, we were getting better, you know, we would talk more often.

Speaker 3 We, we like never talk now, you know, so it's just when my daughter FaceTimes her which i keep that open all the time they face time like almost every day you know but yeah but i had i think i had hope and then when the actions you know and everything started back up i think the hope just kind of you know i built up all this hope of like how my mom was going to be helpful and she was going to come out and you know help me with her first grandchild and stuff She didn't.

Speaker 3 You know, my daughter was actually born right around Christmas time, the holidays. My parents are retired.
My siblings are either like, you know, single, young, or in college.

Speaker 3 And so they very easily, you know, I was like, why don't we do Christmas here? Like, we have tons of time to plan it. It'd be great.
My mom came out while I was pregnant and toward the end.

Speaker 3 And I was going to be induced. So, but she kept asking like,

Speaker 3 when is it? When is it? I was like, well, we have to, we have to wait till they call me in because there's COVID procedures.

Speaker 3 So just, you know, I'm waiting too. I'm the one that should be anxious, you know.
But she, she started getting a certain way. My dad actually was like, I'd take her out of the house.

Speaker 3 Funny enough, we got the call to come in when that happened. So, we did.
And then, I obviously was in the hospital for a couple of days and came home with our daughter.

Speaker 3 And my mom held her once, turned to my dad and said, We got to hit the road. They left.
That's my core memory.

Speaker 1 So, just out of curiosity,

Speaker 1 is there any frustration with your dad by not saying no?

Speaker 3 I think my dad doesn't want to like push her off the rocker, if you will. Like my dad's, you know, that's where I struggle a little bit.

Speaker 3 My dad will sometimes be like, hey, you know, but for the most part, he just kind of will go along with things because he's just like, it is what it is.

Speaker 3 And funny enough, my dad came back on his own without her.

Speaker 3 She could have come.

Speaker 1 Your mom's sick. I know.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 it's just hard. I had this like probably on me to build up like a picture or an idea.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, but minus the alcoholism. Why are

Speaker 1 some other reasons why growing up, you and your mom didn't have the best relationship?

Speaker 3 It was primarily that, but sure.

Speaker 1 But I guess more in terms of like, I'm sure alcoholism was like the catalyst for her actions, but I guess.

Speaker 3 Yeah, my mom had a lot of, well, I'm very aware, like her mom was an alcoholic. And so she had a lot of childhood trauma herself.
It was very obvious she was depressed and has anxiety.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's not diagnosed, but it's pretty clear.

Speaker 3 You know, I didn't know that as a kid. I recognize that now.
But I can see now, like, some of the things she did, how it took its toll on me.

Speaker 3 Just some of the, the way she talked, or like, she would just burst, you know, with emotion. And that's something I've learned to like withhold, right? go to therapy, do different outlets.

Speaker 3 Like, I don't want my child to see me scream and rage for no reason or direct it at them, you know, when it's not like there's a difference between discipline and, you know, just pure rage

Speaker 3 on something else and redirecting it towards your child.

Speaker 3 So it's a lot of that as a child as well that I, I had, and my parents both worked full time. So, you know, when I got to see them wasn't often.
And when I did, that's what I saw. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And a lot of fighting as well.

Speaker 1 uh and a lot of drinking so yeah

Speaker 1 i mean this is not probably anything you want to hear or maybe you haven't already been told.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think it's you, you seem to be really struggling with the anger and resentment that, again, more obviously understandable and justifiable and the expectations you had of your mom.

Speaker 1 But you've told stories in this conversation of examples, of positive examples she's shown you with her work ethic as a as a working woman who's took care of her family.

Speaker 1 However, she did it, still a positive example. She's also been a negative example of ways in which you made it very clear how you don't want to be around your children.

Speaker 1 And however we learn lessons, you know, I think we have to remind ourselves to be grateful for those lessons, even if those lessons manifested in ways that like we would, you know, like I'm sure we learn a lot of lessons where like, I could have probably learned this with a lot less pain and suffering, you know, as opposed to,

Speaker 1 but I don't know. We tell ourselves that, but maybe not.
I don't know. I think what's clear is that your mom is obviously sick.

Speaker 1 You want your kids to have a relationship with your mom, but you also want to have a relationship with your mom.

Speaker 1 And you know that you can't have the relationship with your mom and your kids can't have the relationship with your mom the way you wish you could. And that just pisses you off.

Speaker 1 And there's just so much anger around that. And I totally get it.
But holding on to that anger doesn't get you very far.

Speaker 3 No, no, not at all.

Speaker 1 So I just.

Speaker 1 Yeah. One thing I would suggest trying out.
You know, you said the phone's always open for grandma to call your three-year-old.

Speaker 1 What's stopping you from still checking in on mom, knowing that she's a sick woman who, and when you call, she's probably going to be drunk and she's probably going to piss you off.

Speaker 1 But like, just accepting where your mom is at, not necessarily accepting that, like, you're okay with it, you know, you don't have to be okay with it, but she is sick. She's sick.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's, it's a, it's a sickness.

Speaker 1 And you're, again, like, you're, you're, I think you're what you're struggling is because you see what she's capable of. You know, she's not totally lost.

Speaker 1 And, you know, but like, maybe there's a part that's just a little more empathy and love from you and reaching out to mom. It's not going to change anything.
And that's the thing.

Speaker 1 Maybe in the past, I think my guess is, you know, we do things because we hope there's something good that's going to come of it.

Speaker 1 Because like, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying, hey, reach out to mom because like she's going to wake up and have an epiphany.

Speaker 1 You know, this isn't like me saying, oh, don't, don't call him so that he misses you. you know, type of thing if someone's calling about a dating situation.

Speaker 1 Like, this isn't like, do a so this happens. I don't know what's going to make your mom want to get healthy.
Maybe nothing. Maybe, you know, I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But there's a part that you're choosing to push mom away and maybe in ways you don't necessarily need to as it relates to your children's safety. Yeah.

Speaker 3 There's just a little bit of, there's just a little bit of, I think there's a little selfishness on my end, you know, to some degree where it's like, I could reach out to her personally more often, but I've kind of chosen not to because

Speaker 1 I mean, I totally get it. I mean, you're, you're talking to the guy who's the king of like,

Speaker 1 I don't want to deal with them. So I don't.
Yeah. And I'm, I'm really good at keeping my peace, you know, and I'm, I'm good at doing it pretty guilt-free, you know?

Speaker 1 But I guess my point is you're only, there's a part of your actions that are only hurting you.

Speaker 1 You have hurt, right? So it's, it's pain and it's affecting you. And that's the part I would love for you to try to tweak because it's, again, it's only hurting you.

Speaker 1 And that's kind of, it says that that's up to you. And can you go to a place where you can accept where your mom's at at this moment and see her as a sick person, but still,

Speaker 1 you know, be a little closer to her than you are and make those calls that she's probably, you know, I don't know whether she makes them or not, but. And then no,

Speaker 3 it's another thing that I struggle with. You know, it's always me.
So it's just like,

Speaker 3 sometimes I'm just like, oh, you know, like, it, and sometimes I know I'm not in the right headspace, which is why I don't. But, you know, I think that's another part of it.

Speaker 1 It's like, I'm always doing the heavy lifting, which is tiring, you know, and I think, yeah, but there's also a part of you that's probably like, I don't like, well, I didn't sign up to have a third child with my mom.

Speaker 1 100%. You had to parent your mom and she wasn't there for you.
You know, it's just like, wait, I get to parent you now and you didn't even parent me. I mean, I get all your anger, you know, I get it.

Speaker 1 and it's all very justified it's just you still have a choice yeah

Speaker 1 you know it's just one of those things where you know if some I don't want to like put it out there but if you lost the opportunity to ever communicate with your mom again

Speaker 1 let's say a month from now

Speaker 1 it might change your decision tree Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 And you would swallow your pride and anger and you would, and you would just take the mom, whatever your mom was available whatever mom was available to you that's the mom you would take if you knew you had four weeks left of mom yeah I think about that all the time too to be honest yeah and we just don't know if it's four weeks or 40 more years in the meantime you know again

Speaker 1 you're gonna have to recognize that part of your decisions are are hurting you too and that's the part you should just every day challenge yourself and ask yourself like who who's benefiting from my stubbornness or selfish you know i don't think it's as much selfishness or stubbornness because yeah i that's why i actually i don't think it's selfishness at all because again i think it's hurt it hurts you you don't get any like not calling your mom doesn't make you feel good it doesn't make your life better it makes you angry it probably consumes your emotions and energy you're probably thinking about that you you probably spend more time thinking about not calling your mom than

Speaker 1 you know just calling your mom and accepting your mom as a sick person and then like being your being a mom to your kids you know what i'm saying like it takes energy for you to not call your mom yeah it just takes energy when i even like

Speaker 3 talk about her at times you know just like yeah it and it's like that energy could be and i recognize that and i get you know it's upsetting sometimes because i'm like that energy could have been spent on me my relationship with my husband, my daughter.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and

Speaker 3 it just could have been way better spent. But I will say, I will be seeing my mom this weekend.

Speaker 1 So what's the occasion?

Speaker 3 My little sister is graduating college.

Speaker 1 So and right now, what is your mindset going into this weekend?

Speaker 3 Hey, mom, what's up?

Speaker 1 No, I don't mean that.

Speaker 1 I don't mean like, what are you going to do? I mean, like, what is your mindset? Like your energy towards your mom. Like, what are you?

Speaker 3 I, to be honest, every time like we see her probably two to three times a year,

Speaker 3 you know, along with my dad and the rest of the family. And it's always just like, I'm like, pretty neutral.

Speaker 3 Like, I go in with the expectation that something, you know, she's probably going to, she's going to act the way she acts and that's fine, but I'm just going to keep my cool like and use the tactics I've learned to navigate the situation, to not react.

Speaker 3 You know, that's the main thing. Cause, you know, I used to try to give her lessons or go back at her.

Speaker 3 And I just don't do that anymore. I just kind of like

Speaker 1 nod and okay,

Speaker 3 you know, and it's not fun, but it is a better, calmer situation for myself and everyone else there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So when was the last time you like said goodbye to your mom, gave her a big hug and said, I love you.

Speaker 3 And meant it?

Speaker 1 No, just in general.

Speaker 1 You didn't mean it. I love you.
Again, there's a difference between like and love.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I always love her, but like

Speaker 3 it's like

Speaker 1 am i really happy with her right now that's not yeah yeah that's not what i'm asking i'm not asking if you're happy with her you know yeah i'm not asking it's not i'm not saying hey i love who you are you don't love who you are but i saw her for thanksgiving last year and that's you know said bye i gave everyone big hug she was of course part of saying goodbye to everyone uh you know We have a relationship.

Speaker 3 It's just not the ideal relationship, right?

Speaker 1 That's the ideal part that you struggle the most with.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. Because I, I, it's hard because I see my siblings, you know, and it's very hard not to compare, you know, we're humans as much as we want to be like, but we do.
We, we fucking compare.

Speaker 3 You know, you see your friends and they have great relationships, um, you know, with their parents or my own siblings have like, it's, it's so different, the dynamics.

Speaker 3 um not just because of our age differences but because of how we were raised too you know under the circumstances that we were raised raised. So it's very different.

Speaker 1 What was better or worse?

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I have no regrets because I learned a lot. So, you know, but there's always you kind of look and you're like, man, even though I had a mom that was pretty ferantic and stuff, like she wasn't drinking.

Speaker 3 She wasn't, you know, you didn't have to like take care of her. You know, you didn't have to do these.
these things, you know, and witness that.

Speaker 3 So you don't have, I mean, they might have unknowing trauma, you know, to certain degrees.

Speaker 3 We all have childhood trauma, whether we want to admit it or not, but it's different trauma, you know, that they experience than me.

Speaker 3 So on one hand, I'm like happy for them, you know, I really am, because I'm like, I talked to my sister, she's 21, you know, we're what, 12, 13 years apart.

Speaker 3 And it's, you know, we're very close now that she's gotten older and She's, she's cognizant, she's very aware. And, but she's, you know, she's like, I never witnessed that.

Speaker 3 But she has come to me and said, mom calls me drunk a lot now, you know,

Speaker 3 things like that. And I'm kind of like, you know, I'm here if you ever want to talk, but, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to like go down the past with you.

Speaker 3 That's just, I don't want to relive that, if you will, with my siblings or put that into, you know, my siblings.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Challenge yourself not to compare. I mean, I don't.

Speaker 1 Recently, I've,

Speaker 1 again, I've had a really, some really really cool moments in my career recently, pretty big milestones of success recently, which has obviously caused me to reflect on

Speaker 1 the past 10 years of my career, which have been kind of different, you know, like when I moved to L.A. and kind of tried to take advantage of this opportunity that going on reality TV gave me.

Speaker 1 And in the earlier years of being done with filming TV,

Speaker 1 you know, the bachelor franchise and kind of going out on my own, so to speak. Like I, I was, um, the franchise was essentially done with me.

Speaker 1 The reason I was the bachelor is because there was like one or two producers in positions of power that really liked me, but I was never like the networks or the real people in power.

Speaker 1 I wasn't their guy, you know, I was the odd man out, you know, Ben was like, Ben was their guy, you know, he played a role, you know, like not even, but he's just like, you know, they had a certain type of bachelor, bacherette that they, they liked, right?

Speaker 1 I was not it.

Speaker 1 And so they kind of, they kind of begrudgingly gave me opportunities, you know, especially from the, you know, they were happy to use me to get for other things like drama and whatever, you know, villains or whatever.

Speaker 1 But as far as like their bachelor, the hero,

Speaker 1 it was, you know, met with resistance from most people.

Speaker 1 And so then when I was done, I, you know, I really got the call, so to speak, you know, the opportunities that came with it, you know, the, you know, hey, we want you to do this.

Speaker 1 We want, you know, you know, show up here, show up there, you know, job offers, opportunities. Like my phone never rang for the, you know, really.
It was a bunch of other people.

Speaker 1 And I, I, I had certain feelings about that for sure. You know, hard.
How do you not, you know, to feel like, man, I, I gave you guys a lot.

Speaker 1 I mean, I, I gave you like a lot of my life and like personal feelings and just like, I, you know, and you guys benefited greatly from it.

Speaker 1 And now, you know, not that I didn't, you know, I certainly was very grateful, but like, it was hard not to feel a certain way about it.

Speaker 1 I can tell you sitting where I am now, if I got those opportunities, I wouldn't be sitting here today, you know, because, you know, I was forced to go out on my own and make it on my own.

Speaker 1 I was forced to like not have people say, well, here's a job opportunity. Here's a job opportunity.
Well, also those job opportunities kept other people

Speaker 1 just comfortable enough not to take certain risks. And I'm so grateful that I didn't get those calls now.
I'm so grateful because the truth is I would have said yes to them.

Speaker 1 I would have, I would have, I wanted, I wanted to be wanted. And then I wasn't.

Speaker 1 And if I was wanted, I would have comfortably taken those opportunities, which were great opportunities, but I wouldn't have gone on my own and I wouldn't have figured it out.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't have done what I've done. And

Speaker 1 now be in a position that, you know, where I'm at, which is leaps and bounds past where most of them are in terms of, you know, certain things.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, it takes a few years to figure it out. But like, for me, it's just like, Jesus Christ,

Speaker 1 it's almost like scary to think that

Speaker 1 the only reason I'm sitting here was something outside of my control. Cause I'm, you know, you hear me, I'm so big on controlling what you control.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it's like, you know, be the driver of your life. But the reality is, is like, sometimes like, you know, we, we get dealt certain things and then in the moment feel unfair or bullshit.

Speaker 1 And it's just easy to resent certain things. But sometimes those

Speaker 1 obstacles force us and challenge us to do things we don't want to do, but it makes us more resilient and it makes us do things that other people might not be forced to do. And

Speaker 1 it puts us in positions to reap certain benefits that we wouldn't otherwise get if we weren't forced to be resilient and

Speaker 1 go on our own. Does that make any of this make sense? Yeah.
I just

Speaker 1 try to, you know, and it's like in the moment, I get it, but like just, you know, when you're feeling those feelings of resentment and you're you're feeling those feelings of frustration and anger, they're natural and they're normal.

Speaker 1 But try not to have those feelings stop you from pushing forward and moving on and still focus on having positive relationships, you know, with people, you know, that's, and that's just my big takeaway.

Speaker 1 It's just like everything you're going through is valid and you seem like you're making some really healthy choices for the most part.

Speaker 1 But there are, you know, there are things that sounds like like from time to time you do that, again, don't serve you. They only hurt you.
And you're doing it kind of out of anger and spite.

Speaker 1 And it's just

Speaker 1 try to challenge yourself to ask yourself, you know, you said you call yourself selfish. It's not selfishness.
It's, it's stubbornness. It's the opposite, you know, because it's not helping you.

Speaker 1 It's hurting you, you know? Yeah. And just do things that help you, either, whether it's the short run or the long run.

Speaker 1 And the long run is always more important than the short run because the short one just comes and goes in the blink of an eye.

Speaker 1 But things that like allow you to have, you know, be a better mother to your kids in the long run and be a healthier mom. And like, you know, you said, you said it yourself.

Speaker 1 Your three-year-old already is very self-aware, understands the energy that mom and dad bring every day.

Speaker 1 And you holding on to that negative energy to your mom is something your daughter is going to pick up on. you know

Speaker 1 and let that be your motivation so that she doesn't just feel that energy you know?

Speaker 1 And again, use it as a teachable moment so that like when your daughter gets older, she can have that empathy and grace for grandma and to see grandma as a sick person because she has no expectations of grandma because she doesn't know what a grandma is supposed to be.

Speaker 1 And many people don't get an opportunity to even have grandparents because they're dead and they don't live long enough. And it's just

Speaker 1 trying not to let your anger that's. very valid and justifiable just, yeah, make a bad situation worse.

Speaker 3 I appreciate it. Yeah, you're right.
My therapist even kind of worked on a tactic with me when those things come up, you feel them, but they're not warranted, they're not good for you right now.

Speaker 3 So, like, let's put them in the safe and put the code, lock it away, and we'll unpack it in therapy and then we'll lock it again. Yeah, come back and visit it.

Speaker 1 And it's so annoying.

Speaker 1 It's really

Speaker 1 annoying being like the bigger person or the person who always has to make healthy decisions. Sometimes we just want to be fucking toxic and get it out.

Speaker 1 You know, sometimes we want that short-term gratification that just like,

Speaker 1 and you're you're allowed that. But from just try to see the big picture.
It's, it's just better for everyone and most importantly, for yourself.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I appreciate it, Nick.
Thank you. All right.

Speaker 1 Well, hopefully this was helpful.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yes.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 It was validating, too. All right.
Well, take care and give mom a big hug next time and try to mean it. I will.
All right. I will.

Speaker 3 I'll see you this weekend. All right.
Take care. All right.
Thank y'all. All right.
Bye-bye. Bye.

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How's it going?

Speaker 5 Hi, I'm Becky. I'm 29, and I'm wondering if there is still potential to be more, or am I officially on the roster?

Speaker 1 Tell me about the situation you're in.

Speaker 5 So we met on Tinder. He's 37.
He's tall, but not douchebag tall, really nice not hasn't loved bond me good job good vibes

Speaker 5 um i know he's obviously still dating other people

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 yeah

Speaker 5 okay how long has this been going on for um our first date was the end of march so we've hung out three times since then okay

Speaker 1 And when you say things like he hasn't loved Bon Me and obviously he's dating other people, this sounds like you just have the lowest of expectations for the people you date.

Speaker 3 Probably.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, we agree on that. Well, I mean, you know, it's three dates since March is

Speaker 1 slow progress. Yeah.
It's giving roster. Okay.
Have you hooked up?

Speaker 5 Yeah. So on the first date, it was way too long and I think I immediately messed up there.

Speaker 1 Second date. What do you mean it was too long?

Speaker 5 It was like seven and a half hours and it should never be that long.

Speaker 1 Did you hook up on the first date?

Speaker 5 No, we just, we went to dinner, then we went to a bar and then we came back, not to my apartment, but we hung out on the rooftop and had drinks.

Speaker 5 And then he texted me when he got home and then he went on a golf trip. So that kind of like pushed our day, our next like time hanging out off a little bit.

Speaker 5 And then the second time we hung out, we went to like a sports thing and then.

Speaker 5 just got we got way too drunk and then came back we were gonna just go hang out on the rooftop again but i guess i forgot i I guess I didn't realize like how drunk he got.

Speaker 5 So I was like, you could just stay, you can just stay the night. And that was like my first mistake, I guess, or another mistake.
But then he obviously stayed the night.

Speaker 5 We've been, we were in bed, we were making out. We didn't have sex, but the next day,

Speaker 5 we like briefly talked and then didn't hear from him for a couple of days, which was normal. That wasn't not like the communication has been very much like consistent.

Speaker 5 but this last time we hung out we did have sex so i've just kind of was hoping that it would have been more like it would have been there would like he would have shown more why why did you choose to have sex with him on this third date versus say the second date i have really bad anxiety so i just didn't want to do it to myself like i knew if i would have like hooked up with him on the second date and like

Speaker 1 my question isn't is less about why didn't you have sex on the second date but it's more about why what was different about the third date where you didn't that like

Speaker 1 you know hey i had anxiety so i didn't want to do in the second date but why was the anxiety not there on the third date like what changed well it definitely was but i just like we

Speaker 5 i don't know i just liked him i just i just realized like i liked him more than i did like on the second date i just i don't know it's just like a weird it's a weird vibe now because i would have thought like

Speaker 5 i would have thought after we i mean i guess it's been there done that but I just feel like I'm being breadcrumbed and I just wish like he would not breadcrumb me.

Speaker 1 What do you mean by breadcrumbed?

Speaker 5 So we, last time we hung out, was on Friday. I stayed the night with him, didn't hear from him on Saturday.

Speaker 5 I texted him on Sunday, just like I was at, like, and that's just kind of how we text, like sporadically. And then I heard from him on a couple of days later.
He was asking how my week was.

Speaker 5 I told him how my week was, yada, yada, yada. We got into, and then I regretted this immediately when I said it.
I said, what does the rest of your week look like?

Speaker 5 And then it was like automatically like me pursuing him.

Speaker 5 Just, i felt like i was doing too much and then he told me what his week looked like and then i he asked him what mine looked like and i never responded to him texted him back the next day sorry fell asleep um hope you had a good day good night

Speaker 5 and but he still could have asked me to hang out like he didn't know what my week was my week looked like this is all after you had sex yes okay My guess is he probably doesn't even know how he feels about you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but like you having sex with him on the third date is you participating in hookup culture, it's not you pursuing a relationship.

Speaker 1 You know, and if you want to have sex with

Speaker 1 a guy because you're like, I'd like to get laid tonight and he and he's attractive and I'd like to have sex with him, have a ball, you know, be the empowered woman in 2025 that has the right to have sex as much as any fuckboy out there.

Speaker 1 But the reality is, is sex to everyone has consequences, right? And the consequences of having sex with men early in the dating stage is that it just like it changes their interests.

Speaker 5 Am I able to run it back? Like, or is it too far gone?

Speaker 1 I think in most cases, this is not specific to you, but in most cases, and there's exceptions to rules, if you have sex with a man in the early stages of dating, he's almost certainly going to reach out to you the next time, not because he's interested in learning more about you emotionally and building an emotional connection, but it's because he wants to have sex with you again.

Speaker 1 Got it. Because you had sex with a person you had no actual connection with.
You had a good time, you know, learned a little bit about each other and had some nice dates.

Speaker 1 But like, you know, you know, you didn't have an emotional connection. You didn't know each other on a deeper level.
You didn't build any type of bond.

Speaker 1 You're not bringing any other value to his life, you know, other than maybe like a good time,

Speaker 1 but like emotional support.

Speaker 1 You're not, you're not the person he's going to reach out to if he's having a bad day right now, you know, or if he needs some like advice, you know, that's not going to be you.

Speaker 1 You haven't built that rapport with him. So you just pigeonhole yourself.
And that's just like, men, I don't know, you know, it's just kind of how men's brains work.

Speaker 1 So if you find yourself having sex with men early in the dating process and seeing their behavior change shortly thereafter, that's generally why. And

Speaker 1 I would say most of the time, it's not men, you know, going out with you and being like, I'm just going to say whatever I have to say in order to have sex with her.

Speaker 1 And there's plenty of shitty guys who do that, right? You know, but I'd say most guys just, you want to have sex with me? Great. Sure.
I'm not going to say no. And then they do.

Speaker 1 And it's just like that curiosity of, you know, like every all men have that kind of animalistic instinct of being attracted to a woman and wondering what she looks like naked.

Speaker 1 And that's a very powerful tool you all have if you want to play that card. And by playing that card, it means to literally not, you know, to keep them guessing, so to speak.
So

Speaker 5 a couple of weeks ago, he did kind of ghost me for like, it was almost four days.

Speaker 5 And I didn't say anything about it like when I did hear from him. But when I date, whenever I went over to his house afterwards, I just kind of like brought it up.
I was like, you, I don't know.

Speaker 5 It made sense and probably shouldn't have brought it up anyway, but to me, it made sense. I was like, you, yeah, you kind of disappeared for, what was it, four days?

Speaker 5 I was like, I, I was like, I understand things like happen. Just send a text next time.
And then like, he doesn't, like, he didn't want to get into it. So he tried to kiss me.

Speaker 1 And so I was like, I'm confused about what you just said. Like, what are you trying to resolve here that you said you could like?

Speaker 5 Well, I brought it up to him.

Speaker 1 Brought what?

Speaker 5 And the ghost thing.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 5 He like ghosted me for a few days. And then when I did hear from him, like over text, I didn't bring it up until I was in person with him.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so I was like, yeah, I was like, you could like, just just maybe like a text or like a something.

Speaker 5 I was like, I was, if you're not interested in me, you're not interested in me, but I just would have rather have like heard from you.

Speaker 5 And he just like leaned in to kiss me. And I like put my hand up and I was like, sorry? Like, are you, he was like, you could say sorry.
And he was like, no, I am.

Speaker 5 I'm like, I'm, I'm like, I bet you are now that you want to make out. And he just kind of like laughed it off and then leaned back.
And then he was like, yeah, I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 5 That was really rude of me.

Speaker 1 And so just to be clear, like, when you say ghost, he just didn't call you for a couple of days.

Speaker 5 Yeah, he didn't text me or yeah, he didn't text me for it was like four, it was like four days. Like I'm cool with not, I'm not, I'm cool with not the everyday, like all day.
That puts too much. I put

Speaker 1 I guess what expectations do you guys have that he was supposed to reach out to you on any type of consistent basis?

Speaker 5 I just thought it was would have been the polite thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're not wrong. I mean, it's just, it's, it's a matter of opinion.

Speaker 1 And you're, you know, I just think you're, you or anyone else listening, you're better off just like, it's like, if you want you know part when you say polite you know like you want him to be an adult and like part of accepting expecting other people of being adults is you being an adult too if you want to get naked and have sex with a guy again go nuts like absolutely no no like but like you know maybe have a have a conversation with a guy before about like his expectations But like you, you, and I say you, everyone now, people in dating culture are doing this weird thing where it's just like, I don't know, I don't want to sound crazy.

Speaker 1 I don't want to like, but like, let's get naked and have sex, but I don't want to, I mean, I don't want to like expect anything from him. I mean, we're not dating.
He's not my boyfriend.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 But like, again, like, have a ball with sex, but like, this is either a person you're interested in getting to know and pursue on a deeper level other than just a casual hookup, or it's a casual hookup.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's hard to be both. And if you get lucky that you guys are just like so hot for each other, that you love both having sex with each other so much that you just kind of keep hanging out.

Speaker 1 And over that time of like hooking up, you build a rapport and emotional connection.

Speaker 1 You luck out, which is kind of like the story of me and Natalie, which is kind of like we were just kind of obsessed with each other physically that we just kept hanging out.

Speaker 1 And then like six months later, like, I think I love this girl. But that was because we built that connection through like, you know, being drawn to each other.

Speaker 1 Most of the time, it's like more of a, yeah, I mean, you know, that's nice. And, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Like, that's, that's the that's the that's very much the exception to the rule and the reality i mean like our everything about a relationship is the exception to the rule but you know i did not go about it in a way that was that that set my set that relationship up for success you know my actions uh with my how you know i didn't know it at the time you know i wasn't even pursuing i mean i went into that interaction with being like yeah we're not going to date you know but you if you are going in an interaction where you're thinking no this is someone i could be interested in then you probably need to to make different decisions about how you go about pursuing these men.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, I regretted it as soon as, like, not, I mean, I guess I had like an emotional hangover afterwards because I was like, oh my God, like, I don't even know what this guy wants.

Speaker 5 He doesn't know what I want. I, I'm like, that I,

Speaker 5 I don't know. And then I got, that's why, like, I just kind of avoided him, like, texting him this past week.
It's because I'm like, okay, you kind of ghosted me, like, you, you kind of ghosted me.

Speaker 5 Then we had sex. You don't know what i want i don't know what you want and i just i know how that goes like i mean

Speaker 5 i don't know it just because i was really trying to be more intentional i truly was like i know we like hooked up the third date i was just trying to be more intentional i mean i thought i was and maybe that's why i don't know it's really discouraging because i I truly felt like I was doing something different.

Speaker 1 And then I was like, what was different?

Speaker 5 Cause normally I have a very full throttle personality.

Speaker 1 What do you mean by that?

Speaker 5 that i'm like i'm the biggest person in the room i i just i mean you hear me you know i'm there you like my like you got a big personality yeah and the vibe i got from him was

Speaker 5 it just felt good with my vibe okay great and he was older he's he's 37 he's older he has it like i mean he just seemed more in line with what i wanted so i felt like okay great like I was being more intentional.

Speaker 5 I truly felt like I was being more intentional.

Speaker 1 I just, he was more, he was more in line with me.

Speaker 5 how it how did you manifest that in your into action i did not lay it on as thick as i normally would have because normally i'm being matched i'm normally i get the love bomb and then i just match that energy so i'm like okay if that's what they're giving me i'm just gonna i'm gonna meet them where they're at or it's been like oh i can be a slow burn but the moment they like have an attitude so like hold up this is like let's just pause for a second so you're saying in the past that if you'd meet a guy there'd be some interest and he would be like i'm in love with you and you and and so because he was saying that you would match that energy regardless of if you felt that way.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I know that's wrong. Like, I know I should like be more.

Speaker 1 It is what it is. I mean, listen, we're, we all dating, like, I use this analogy before, but like, love is a powerful, crazy fucking thing that's unpredictable.

Speaker 1 And we all want it, but it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, again, it's, it's combustible. It's unstable.
It takes a lot of tender, loving care.

Speaker 1 We turn 18 in adults and then we get this like, all right, go kind of like find love, so to speak. In fact, sometimes we start before we're even adults, right? It's, it's a very powerful thing.

Speaker 1 And if we use that analogy, like a sports car, like, do you, do you think you'd get comfortable getting into a Ferrari without any real lessons and

Speaker 1 feel comfortable getting behind that wheel and not driving? And

Speaker 1 probably not, right? Like, it's like, so give yourself grace, but be willing to learn from your mistakes, right?

Speaker 1 And so I'm not pointing this out to like be like, well, that was stupid or like make you feel bad about your choices, but I do want you to recognize that like men can do whatever they want.

Speaker 1 They can love bomb, they can be immature, but as you become more of an adult woman and you mature in life, you need to recognize that if a man wants to like fall in love with you at the second date, that you know he's not, then you don't let your ego that and then you don't match his level and you just go, whoa, you don't even know me.

Speaker 1 You know, let's slow down, buddy.

Speaker 1 And you put put him in his place. And every man's going to find that attractive.

Speaker 1 Men are going to do one of two things. Either find that attractive or they will reveal themselves as someone who's like just trying to get laid.

Speaker 5 I mean, you're right, obviously.

Speaker 1 It's just,

Speaker 1 you have to take accountability for your dating life. You have to be willing to learn from your mistakes.
Men are going to men, you know, so to speak.

Speaker 1 But by learning through your mistakes, you can get better at

Speaker 1 handling yourself and being more in control of these situations because the way you talk about your dating situations, you're always just like waiting for the man to lead, so to speak.

Speaker 1 And I get like in traditional, like

Speaker 1 a lot of women want that, so to speak, but I think want that in a relationship for the relationship, you know, if you want to have a more traditional relationship and kind of like, you know, trad wife, whatever,

Speaker 1 and you want a man to be more of the leader, that's great. Like, I love that for you, you know, like in a lot of ways, Natalie likes that I take the lead in things, right?

Speaker 1 But you're not in a relationship with these men. And right now, you are in charge of your life and your interpersonal relationships.

Speaker 1 And they're not your boyfriends and they're not there to lead you right now.

Speaker 1 So you need to take charge of your dating relationship and you need to make choices for yourself and then check in with yourself as you get to know these men.

Speaker 1 And they can be like, is this the type of man who leads or follows? You know, and you can find him to be attractive or unattractive, right?

Speaker 1 But like, you need to decide whether you like these men or not. You know, right now, you're just, you're meeting men

Speaker 1 from what I'm hearing and immediately just seeing how it goes you know if you you're you all you check in is for vibes all right is there chemistry great all right i feel chemistry all right let's see what he does with this chemistry that we're feeling and then immediately you put yourself in this position of not have and not having power because you're just kind of like waiting for him to like make the move right so to speak a little bit and then you have a kind of all this anxiety is you anxiety comes from the unknown and part of the reason why you're always anxious is you're never stepping into your in a position of power you're not taking charge of who gives a what he thinks and feels about what he wants to do with you you're just like i don't know we've had two good first dates great i like what i have so far i don't just want to this guy i want to see where it goes so like i still don't know him i'm going to keep getting to know him if he wants to kiss me great if he wants to try to get a little action i love that because it makes me feel pursued but i'm going to say no i'm not doing that right now i want to build a connection and i'm not going to set some sort of arbitrary false deadline like I don't have sex until the fifth date, because you're just giving him a goal, or I don't have sex until four weeks of dating.

Speaker 1 No, you wait till you feel like you're actually building some kind of rapport, you know, where you're not wondering if he's calling or you give him an opportunity to see if he's going to wait four days to check in with you or just be a part of your roster.

Speaker 1 You get to know him and you don't feel like you have to do anything to like entice him, so to speak, other than just like play your part in trying to build a connection with the guy.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, and I see what you're saying. And I,

Speaker 5 that's, that's why I was just trying to match his energy. And I feel like, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 I, what do you mean?

Speaker 5 Just like, because normally

Speaker 5 people lay it on super thick. And normally, like if they're historically, I've had people just lay it on super thick.
And I could be a slow burn if I wanted to.

Speaker 5 And then they get mad at me because they're like, oh, you're, you might not be into me. And then I'm like, oh, God, I'm going to lose them.
So I just have to go in super strong.

Speaker 1 Okay, but that's just like an emotionally immature guy. That's not your guy.
A guy who gets mad?

Speaker 1 you know as long as you set expectations and you follow through those expectations and that could be something as simple as like i had a really nice time tonight i'd like to see you again

Speaker 1 you know and then either you or him follow up and plan another hang yeah i just so did i i mean did i completely torpedo it like is it completely

Speaker 1 i don't know i mean i i think what i'm hearing is i think you need to take a step back and look at how you're dating period.

Speaker 1 Because right now, you're, you know, your mindset is just about trying to save this relationship with this guy. You don't even have a relationship with this guy.

Speaker 1 And he's definitely giving roster for sure. I don't know why you're still so worried about a guy who had sex with you and felt like he didn't really need to call you after four or five days.

Speaker 1 Again, I don't think he committed a crime. And I don't call that ghosting, but it doesn't give, I'm super excited about this girl and I really want to pursue her.
No, you're right.

Speaker 5 Like he texted me yesterday and was, he said, hey, how was your weekend? I said, and I just was kind of short.

Speaker 5 and i it felt i felt like i was being immature but i was just so annoyed with him in the moment i said

Speaker 5 i said busy weekend but it was all right um how was yours and he said something he told me what he did and i was just like and then he said i'm something about him being busy and as soon as someone says the word busy to me that equals not interested like that's that's the worst b word busy equals not interested and so i was like yeah I said, yeah, I'm really, I'm really starting to see that.

Speaker 5 And then he didn't respond.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 1 i i i don't see i don't i don't see why you would should put much more effort into this guy for sure okay but i don't think you necessarily did anything wrong

Speaker 5 i mean i don't either and i don't really think he did anything wrong either i'm just in my head about it because i wanted to i should have asked my question or at least like figured it out like what he was looking for and like i or at least let him know what i wanted like before we hooked up i think

Speaker 5 yeah because i immediately had like an emotional hangover.

Speaker 1 I just want to be clear that, like, men don't really know what they want with someone they barely know.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Men don't know what they're going to want from a person after they have sex with someone they barely know.

Speaker 5 That makes sense.

Speaker 5 I should have made sure he knew like where I was at, though.

Speaker 1 So, like, what do you wish you would have said to him?

Speaker 5 Just, I'm not looking to add someone else to the roster. If I'm dating with like intention, I'm not saying that means us, like, we have every intention of

Speaker 5 being serious, getting married whatever and but at least know like i'm not just here to like fill a spot or pass the time or be entertained like i could have that with whoever else like i could have that with somebody else i already have that with i just he was not going to be one of those people yeah okay yeah some version of that that would have been great yeah but again i just want to make sure that when you say that Just because they say, oh my God, I want the same thing as you doesn't mean you have sex with them that night.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And we didn't even get that far.
I just went ahead and did it. So, I, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I'm just saying, in the future, if you do communicate that expectation,

Speaker 1 getting a response that, like, I, that they agree doesn't mean you should have sex if, if, if you mean what you say, yeah, because they could meet, they could say that, and then they don't, they don't know me well enough to know if it, if that's with me, so they also don't know how they're going to feel about you after they have sex, yeah, they do not bond like women in general, not, you know, always exceptions, you have a rule, but in general, like

Speaker 1 women have a bonding connection with people they have sex with through sex and men have almost a literal opposite.

Speaker 1 And so if a bond isn't already in place, sex won't be the bond.

Speaker 1 For women, it can be, and it puts you in a vulnerable position because you will have Going on the bachelor is a manufactured environment that creates emotions that might not otherwise be there.

Speaker 1 And kind of, of, that's how sex can be for women when it comes to like their body chemistry. It is not how it is for men for the most part.

Speaker 5 Was my first mistake, him just being a 37-year-old man on Tinder? Like, should I just, should I have known better? Honestly.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't judge a book by its cover.
I mean,

Speaker 1 it just requires you to have more upfront conversations and setting expectations.

Speaker 1 It requires for you to set boundaries with yourself and enforce those boundaries regardless of how much fun you're having on a date or how hot you think they are or, you know, or what, regardless of what they say, you know, if this is a person you're pursuing and getting to know for something more than just a hookup, I wouldn't hook up.

Speaker 5 Yeah, simple math. I should have, I really should have known better.
I really, I don't know. Maybe I just, maybe I just, I was like, okay, this is the third date.

Speaker 5 I feel like we have, I was rationalizing it in my head.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you get, you made it, you made a bet. That's what, you know, you, you, you made a bet.

Speaker 1 And most bets don't win, you know?

Speaker 1 I made a bet and won and it was dumb luck, you know, and that wasn't even a bet. I didn't even want it.

Speaker 1 You know, it wasn't, you know, it's just like, but again, if, if you just want to make, I'm not telling you what to do, and I'm not telling if you will never find love if you don't change anything, but you are, you're going to, you're going to be banking on more luck than, you know, there's, there's things we can do to set up, start, set ourselves up for success.

Speaker 1 And I'm just trying to give you a playbook to set yourself better up for success.

Speaker 1 And you're going to live your life and you should YOLO every once in a while and just have some fucking fun and just be in the moment.

Speaker 1 But if you want to set yourself up for success, there's ways of doing it and there's ways of not doing it. And right now, you're doing a lot of things that are not setting yourself up for success.

Speaker 1 Part of that is allowing the bad ones to come and go. Again, like a guy getting upset with you because you want to go at your pace is just not your guy.

Speaker 1 It is not permission for you to then go at their pace at the risk of you feeling anxious and uncomfortable with that pace. Only they give them what they want and then make you feel used afterwards.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's that's how I felt with the last guy that I dated, that I was dating before this guy. And it's been nothing but toxicity since.
And

Speaker 5 I was really trying, I was really trying to avoid that. But, um, and but that's what this guy hasn't like loved on me.

Speaker 5 It's been, it has felt like mature, like good, like a good pace like communication wise yeah but i i am i it that doesn't even matter because i slept with him too early and did he didn't know what i wanted right

Speaker 1 okay so what do i do from this pointing my yeah i'm gonna sit here racking my brain like i don't like let it go don't reach out to him again why for what purpose he's too busy yeah

Speaker 1 and i follow your own advice you said the b and i agree with you it's a great it's a great line you know the b word is a it's not a good sign. Okay.

Speaker 5 But so even if he texted me last night, I don't text him and I, I don't text him again.

Speaker 1 If you want, if he texts, you can reach out and be like, listen, I just like, you seem too busy. And honestly, I'm just like you said, I'm not really, I had a good time with you, man.
It was great.

Speaker 1 But like, I'm just not looking to be part of the roster or just have you. casually pop in from time to time.
And I'm just not getting the vibe that you're looking for anything more than that. Okay.

Speaker 1 And you seem kind of busy. Okay.
So, yeah, if I'm not saying you don't need to ghost him, you can, if he wants to reach out to you, let him reach out to you.

Speaker 1 And then just be honest with him and take charge of your dating life. Stop worrying about how people are going to respond to you taking control of your life.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I just like I try to avoid the rejection.

Speaker 1 I just want you, I want you to hear about what I just said. And I want you to process what I just said and not think about responding.

Speaker 1 I want you to not worry about how people are going to respond to you you taking charge of your life, your dating life specifically.

Speaker 5 That's really good advice.

Speaker 1 But I want you to think about it. And I want you to think about ways in which you have worried about how they're going to respond and allow that to cause you to not take charge of your dating life.

Speaker 1 And I want you to think about your dating life more than you're thinking about him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I never really thought about it like that.

Speaker 5 This is a lot. It just gives me anxiety.
When I think about losing like my power to them, it just like I

Speaker 5 immediately like emotionally close off and I might like physically still be there with them or I might respond to their text. If I feel powerless to them, I just, it's like, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 5 I could just be like a complete, I'll turn, it'll turn into a crash out situation.

Speaker 5 And then it'll turn into, it'll just spiral into something like an emotion, literally emotional warfare.

Speaker 5 And I mean, I do it to myself, because you're right, I haven't set good boundaries at like, and I just need to be more.

Speaker 1 You need to be more what?

Speaker 5 I just need to be more thoughtful and thoughtful for my, at least for myself. Like, I need to stop worrying about like, I need to just be aware.

Speaker 5 Like, okay, the guy is the driving force, but like, this is my show too.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah.

Speaker 5 I just have to be, I'd have to do a better job of protecting my feelings.

Speaker 1 And like, yeah. Yeah.
You need to take charge of your dating life. Your dating life and the relate and how you want to be in a relationship are two different things.

Speaker 1 You're meeting men and you're trying to simulate a relationship immediately. Yeah.
That is not how you do it. You got to get to know them first.
You know, you got to try them out.

Speaker 1 You got to take it slow. You got to say no to them and see how they respond.

Speaker 1 You need to look for signs of how they might be in a relationship, but that doesn't mean you simulate a relationship in playhouse.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I'm really bad at that.

Speaker 1 We all are.

Speaker 1 But you just have to get good at, you know, again, learn from your mistakes.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 5 I feel like I have done a better job this time,

Speaker 5 but at the same time,

Speaker 5 I just hone in on this one person and I have to be better about not doing that because then I don't even remember that, like my, I don't remember to, I don't remember myself and my emotions.

Speaker 5 I don't know if that probably doesn't make much sense.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, yeah, it makes sense in the sense that, like, again, like your, your, your bad habit is to, again, allow men to

Speaker 1 lead the entire dating portion.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, sounds like, you know, you find that attractive in a man. That's great.
But like early on,

Speaker 1 he shouldn't be dictating all the terms. And as soon as you allow a man to dictate all the terms, then you're just constantly in a, in a holding pattern.

Speaker 1 You're just waiting for them to text you or waiting to see what they're going to say or waiting to see if they want to hang out with you. And that's the part that gives you constant anxiety.

Speaker 1 And then when you don't get what you want, then you start second-guessing all your choices. Should I have done that? Should I have done this?

Speaker 1 And it's all based off of their validation for you. And you're emotionally, you're spending all this energy waiting for validation from a man you know nothing about.

Speaker 1 You don't know anything about them, how they're going to be around your parents or how they're going to handle stress or like if they're going to have a list of 40 bad habits that would just actually give you the ick.

Speaker 1 But you, you just put these people on a pedestal because you have a couple good dates or they're a certain height or look a certain way. And you need to to like just take it slow.

Speaker 1 And if a guy throws a fit and gets mad, as you've described, you'd be like, Okay, well, you are not looking for what I'm looking for.

Speaker 5 So, can I tell you about

Speaker 5 a situation? Okay, so last time we hung out, I

Speaker 5 the week before he was telling like

Speaker 1 before you tell me the story, I'm happy to hear the story, but I want you to think about what we just said and try to apply it to the story you are about to tell me and think if you can answer your own question so and that well it just has to do with me i thought i took charge like

Speaker 5 in this situation he was we just were texting checking in or whatever um he acted like he wanted to ask me to do something and then it just kind of like trailed off a little bit i said so you should ask me out we were talking about what we were doing for the week said something and i said well you should ask me out and he immediately yeah he said well he was like will you go out with me sometime this week and i was like sure sounds good yeah oh i know i have it in me to do it to to take like take take charge on my end and not just let them have the reins but like i don't want i don't want to have to do that every time and i guess if i have to do that every time he's not my guy i don't know there's a difference between giving a guy a little bit of coaching and letting him know what you like and seeing if he responds versus nagging, you know, like, you know, it's 2025 and I think men are really struggling with how they're, you know, it's like the rules of dating have drastically changed.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, there's just a lot of toxicity and online period. And, you know, how old are you again? 29.
29? Okay. Men are, a lot of young men are told, like, don't approach women in public.

Speaker 1 Don't, don't, don't be a creep. Just don't be a fucking creep.
So yeah, there might be a little bit of coaching. Letting a guy know what you like is part of taking control of your.
dating life.

Speaker 1 Again, you're not trying to simulate a relationship with these guys early on, but like, see, if this is, you know, you, if you want to go with me, you need to ask me on a date. All right.

Speaker 1 And then he did, right? Well, do you have to keep asking him to ask you? Okay. Well, then that's a bad sign.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, but if it's a guy's like, all right, you know, you want me to ask you, great. I'm going to ask you.
Yeah. I think you need to be willing to take more charge of your dating life.

Speaker 1 And I think you need to be okay with that. And then you can, by doing so, you can learn more about these men if they have the type of qualities that you want in a relationship.

Speaker 5 I think I can do that.

Speaker 5 I just, yeah, I think I can do that. I had, so my, I was engaged a couple of years ago.

Speaker 5 And he,

Speaker 5 he, I come, I walked all over him.

Speaker 4 I, I mean,

Speaker 5 I was

Speaker 5 jumpy, say how high. His personality kind of let me feel like that was okay.

Speaker 5 And then it ended up being really unattractive. And it got unattractive for me too.
I didn't like, I, I did not like being that way. I didn't like the monster I had created.

Speaker 1 So So you got to find balance, you know?

Speaker 5 That's why I say like full, I'm like full throttle. I have no balance.
I really need to work on that.

Speaker 1 Okay. Trying to work on it.
Yeah. All right.
And again, learn from your mistakes, right?

Speaker 1 You know, but if you are going to be constantly demanding things and, and have a short fuse and, and, and, you know, that's the products you're going to get.

Speaker 1 Um.

Speaker 1 I think you can take charge with your life without being overbearing and demanding and unappreciative.

Speaker 1 You can be a calm, confident woman who knows what she's looking for and has dated enough to understand what are green flags and red flags and what are positive qualities and not positive qualities and set boundaries for yourself and hold these men that you date accountable for how they act early in dating situations.

Speaker 1 And when you are dating someone that you see potential with, then you know that like sex is only going to complicate things.

Speaker 1 And if there's a guy that you're just like, I don't know, he's kind of a loser, but he's hot and I kind of want to fuck him, then have a ball.

Speaker 1 You know that it might, like, you know, again, how you feel afterwards is going to be different than how he feels afterwards. That's just a risk you're going to have to take.

Speaker 1 But men don't fall in love with women they have sex with, they fall in love with women they respect

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 desire and

Speaker 1 feel emotionally taken care of and want to take care of them and

Speaker 1 curiosity. They fall in love with wanting to see you naked and things like that.

Speaker 1 but it's not sex sex is something that men enjoy sex they like doing it it's it's not like uh it's not like a love making session early on especially you're right all right and i hear you okay i hear you i can do that i can do that okay i just yeah you're right i feel like you're always right anyway you're gonna be okay you're gonna be okay just for sure slow down a little bit you got a lot going for you don't try to simulate

Speaker 1 a relationship, you're right.

Speaker 5 All right, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 My pleasure. Thank you very much for calling.
And please keep us posted. I would love an update to see if you've incorporated anything that you learned from this call.

Speaker 5 I will. Thank you so much.
I really needed that. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Take care.

Speaker 3 Bye.