E937 – Going Deeper with Michelle Saniei: A Marriage Horror Story

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Visita Monterrey Bay Aquarium punto hoy que diagonal conecta.

Michelle, welcome to the Vafals.

Thanks.

Are you nervous, excited?

How are you feeling?

I always get nervous the first few minutes, but I am excited to talk.

Okay.

Yeah.

We're excited to talk to you, too.

I feel like you are a hero.

You are brave for what you have gone through in that marriage.

Yeah, I mean,

he's like, yeah, no, I do.

I mean, and you just know the glimpse of it.

You

know, I cannot even imagine.

That's my goal today is I want to know all of it.

I want to feel like when we get done talking, that I've that you were also married to Jesse.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I want I want everyone listening to get the full experience.

I'll try my best, but like after this, I think I'm so sick of his name and him.

I'm like, I don't want to talk about him anymore.

That's fair.

Very fair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But after today.

But I mean, I do, I do want, I guess, to start how we often start with these is as someone who's been on reality TV, I'm a fan of it.

I'm fascinated by it i know i'm probably more than the average person about how the sausage is made and what it takes i think lately i've also been trying to communicate to my audience the importance of appreciating

what you all

do um for our entertainment you know reality stars in general now and i have been asked various times if we would be interested in

would you no absolutely fucking not

Because, yeah, because I think

it takes a lot to open up yourself, your life, you know, your family for us to judge and pick apart and critique and question.

So I am just kind of fascinated.

Just like, what position were you in?

What was your state of mind?

How were you approached by this whole experience?

And what made you say yes in the first place?

I'd love to start there.

It is kind of crazy looking back and thinking about it because I say I was a little naive about it.

I had never watched reality TV, so I didn't know how crazy it could get.

Isabella, my daughter, was about six months old.

We were friends with Jackson Brittany and they pitched us the idea.

And I was like, you know, mom world.

I wasn't working at the time.

I was barely like getting any rest.

I was tired.

And then when he mentioned it, like, let's do a show.

I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I really never thought it was going to happen.

And then a couple years later, we get a call and they're like, hey, it seems like we're moving forward and we're going to start in a month.

Yeah.

And this was, you know, we weren't, Jesse and I weren't doing so well when she was little.

Like that started just our marriage falling apart.

But the time that they said, we're going to do this show, that's when I was really unclear about what was going to happen.

And so I just, I'm very easygoing.

I'm just like, yeah, whatever.

Like, I just said yes.

And I thought, okay, we can be open.

We can show our problems.

But like, I didn't know that all of this was going to happen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's wild.

Do you feel like looking back?

Because it's, you know, were you friends with Brittany and Jax through Jesse?

Like were Jesse and Jax first?

They were, but they weren't friends for many, many years.

They had a falling out in New York in their 20s.

I.

I didn't even know he was friends with Jax until after we were married.

He was like, hey, I reconnected with this guy.

I want you to meet Jax and Brittany.

I didn't know who they were.

So the first time I met Brittany, I didn't know she was on reality reality TV.

Her and I clicked and I just kind of became in that group because I was always hanging out with them.

What made, what made Jesse reconnect with Jax?

I think it was just like they were both, we had just gotten married and I think Jax was engaged and somehow through Instagram, they just kind of like started talking again.

Probably.

Did you feel like Jesse knew more than you?

Oh, 100%.

He always wanted to be an actor.

actor that's why he went to new york he wanted to be an actor that's why he moved to la

he wanted to do reality tv he tried to do million dollar listing la 10 years ago like that has always been him he has wanted this so much and i'm the polar opposite i was like i'm a business girl like i only know real estate and that's all i ever wanted to do so we have two completely different personalities he goes into everything.

He's very scripted.

He has everything like in his mind of what he wants done.

You can kind of see that.

I feel like we kind of mentioned that before.

Do you feel like if you would have watched reality TV, you maybe wouldn't have done it?

Or do you feel like you were just so like probably?

No, probably.

Because I just thought like, okay, it'd be another source of income and we get to hang out with our friends who we already hang out with.

Like, I really didn't see.

I mean, being in real estate, you probably would have gotten more clients.

And that was another thing I thought because I was like, okay, like million dollar listing, all of them grew their business.

So I actually thought it could benefit us.

You know, because obviously you guys were still married at the time.

Do you feel like you even had the option to say no to this opportunity?

Or I never really had a voice with him.

It was whatever he wanted.

But again, I was really easygoing.

Like I'm a very easy girl.

And sorry, that doesn't sound right, but I'm very easygoing.

And so I just said, like, yeah, let's do it.

That makes sense.

And so what conversations, if any, easygoing or not, like you, so you acknowledge that, like, this is a time when already your marriage had its cracks.

And did you guys, as a couple, sit down with any type of conversations about, like, Nia and Dark Danny have been a topic of conversation?

Um, and we were talking about it in terms of, you know, Britney was frustrating them because they're not opening up.

And I get it.

Like, you know, Brittany is like this old school reality TV star who is like, this is what we do.

You know,

we show, we are vulnerable.

And we could argue whether Nia and Danny aren't meant for reality TV, but there's something to be said about a couple who like prioritizes their marriage first, who gets on the same page first, who doesn't feel like they owe anything to anyone outside of their marriage.

And they might sit down and say, hey, okay, well, we're going to take a risk as a couple and we're going to do this show.

And hey, we could use the money and maybe this will help our business.

And before we do this, like, what are some boundaries and some rules that we have as a couple to make sure that we don't lose whatever we have here?

I'm guessing you do you guys

no we didn't have these conversations it just kind of happened fast we had nbc people come over our house they really liked us and it was just like all right we're gonna start shooting in a week we did not have these conversations wow did you have a lot of fears on your own about like that or were you it was it just kind of a whirlwind or i was just nervous because As you can see compared to everybody else, like I'm just quiet.

I'm more to myself.

I'm more reserved.

I'm an introvert.

So I was just like, I I didn't know what that was going to be like.

And I just said, I'm going to be myself.

I'm not going to act and pretend to be this person that I'm not.

So I was just worried about how I was going to be portrayed or looked at.

But I really honestly was very naive about it.

Do you feel like Jesse kind of like turned it on in a sense for the cameras?

Or do you think he's just, that's who he is?

It's both.

He turns it on.

with anybody he wants to.

Like he has a very good way.

Like he has a light switch.

It's just like, it's on.

If he likes you, if he thinks you have money or whatever the case is, it's like he has this persona.

That's not really who he is.

Because you guys had cracks in the marriage.

I think fans

have questioned if you guys already knew that the divorce was happening.

And it was like, you know what?

Fuck it.

Let's do this on TV.

Yeah.

And at least like, this will be, this will be a great way to kick off a show, a messy divorce.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

Okay.

I was really confused, and he already knew that I wanted to divorce.

I had asked for a divorce a year prior, and he had begged me and asked me for a chance.

And I gave him the list of things: like, if you want this marriage to work, I need you to do A, B, and C.

What were those?

What was on that list?

I mean, there was a lot, but the major problems.

I mean, every marriage has problems, but when you have a lot of big, big problems, then it's obviously not good for a marriage.

marriage one of them was his drinking he was just at the time drinking way too much every single day you know he would drink bottles of vodka vodka on the rocks and when you have a baby that's just not doable

we had financial issues meaning that

He was, I was meant to stay at home and take care of the baby and he was out all day, but he was just not working.

He was just the opposite, going out and spending money.

And it was just like a constant constant battle of spending and spending and spending.

And he always says, like, we were, he says it now, we were 50% business partners, but he spent 90% of our money.

And it was very frustrating because I'm like, I'm at home taking care of our baby and you're just spending all our money.

And I couldn't control that or control him.

Would he acknowledge that at this point?

He always made excuses.

No.

He'll say like, oh, I deserved it or

it was a family trip.

So it's fine.

And it wasn't fine.

But he wouldn't deny spending the money.

Like if he were here on the couch and I was like, hey, what do you have to say to this?

What do you think he would say?

It's hard because every time you ask him the same question, it will be a different response.

So it just depends.

Sometimes he will acknowledge it.

And sometimes he's like, she's crazy.

I don't know what she's talking about.

And it's also like you were home with your child and you could have been like, listen, I can be out there working, but like this is, it's like you could have done something to help your family, but you were also like taking care of the child and saving money that way by like not having to spend money on a babysitter or a nanny or daycare or whatever it was so yeah it's like a double end of losing money you know i mean i say it's like kind of being with a gambler like you can't be married to an alcoholic to a gambler and i felt like he was kind of that person and so it was very hard on me to just watch him not grow as a person and he was just going backwards once i had a baby that's when it like started yeah

once i had a baby it completely changed how was he like throughout your pregnancy did you feel like he was very supportive or like like nick was very cautious about like the environment that i was in when i was pregnant it was very much like no one fucking stress her out like stay away from her if you have drama do not bring it in this house was jesse like that or did he start i'm going to take it back he changed once i became pregnant it just i started seeing a different side of him just not being there for me or being supportive and intimacy started changing the moment I became pregnant.

And that was another big problem that I had in our, in our marriage.

Like he wasn't touching you.

He wasn't

never.

And I bet that, I mean, I think every woman feels, you know, your body's changing, you're getting larger, you don't feel sexy.

And then to have a partner who's also not showing any interest, it's like, okay, so you're confirming everything that's in my head.

That must have been very hard to deal with.

It was really hard because it was just like all he cared about was himself and what he looked like and how good he looks.

And it was just like, give me compliments.

And I'm like, wait a minute.

Why don't, why can't it be both ways?

Why do I have to constantly do all of these things for you?

And so it just took a toll mentally.

Yeah.

I mean, I even heard in the boys' chat that he said I was fat while I was pregnant.

Like it was really bad.

And I'm glad that I left.

That's crazy.

Do you think he was excited to be a dad?

He was, but I don't know if he really knew what that meant.

Same more.

I mean, I think I get what you're saying, but I'd love for you to elaborate.

Obviously, you get married, you have a child, like both of you have to put in the work.

It's a lot of work.

It is so much work.

You can't depend one person to do it all.

And that was him.

And on top of that, it was like I said, like he was going backwards in life.

He started drinking more.

He started doing drugs.

He started just doing all these things in his 40s when he wasn't doing that before we got married or while we were married.

Really?

He so he okay.

What kind of drugs was he doing?

He started doing Coke after Isabella was born and our entire relationship.

We were together for years.

I'm very anti-drugs and so was he.

He was like, people don't do that.

That's an absolute no.

And then once I had a baby, like I started noticing things.

I started asking him because it was very apparent and obvious.

And he would, I could see him lying to my face.

And it was just difficult that's crazy what was he i mean i guess just to backtrack a little bit what what what was he like when you first met you know like very different

yeah because everybody's and it is kind of crazy to think like how we started and then how we ended up he first of all we met in 2015 and he lived in a one bedroom little apartment in west hollywood was doing okay in real estate.

He was very sweet.

He would always make me dinners, like wine and cheese, buy a 20-bottle of wine, like very average guy from Boston.

And we got along really well and we became business partners immediately.

So we had that in common.

We were just always going out and it was a lot of fun, but it was like we were on the same train.

It's like we went out, had a couple of drinks, and that was it.

We loved to travel.

We had a really good life.

And then finally, once I had a baby, it was like he decided to start hanging out with Jax and all of these people and and then started doing drugs.

I mean, we've obviously had Jax recently open up about his

drug addiction to cocaine.

I can only imagine that probably had something to do with Jesse venturing into that path.

Yeah, I mean, they hung out, so it's obvious that he did it.

He would probably deny it, but what do you think?

Being a father meant to Jesse?

To him, it was like the picture-perfect family.

It's like, I got my daughter, I got my wife, everything looks good,

but he didn't do the work or care about anything.

What do you think his responsibility was as a dad?

Honestly, I don't know.

Because like he wasn't providing, he was spending.

He wasn't like

protecting or just like the little, I mean, like, just when and I don't know what he expected because it was years and years and years of him not being intimate with me, spending all our money, drinking too much, just not being a good husband.

And so finally, I fell out of love with him.

And then it's very frustrating watching season one because he has this act of he's trying so hard.

But I gave him, I told him the answers, like, I didn't want to get divorced.

I wanted to be married.

I loved him very much.

And he just didn't do the work.

Why do you think, you know, because obviously season one towards the end, when you were like, hey, I'm not happy.

I kind of hate you and I want a divorce.

And he really went into like the victim mindset of, I can't believe this is happening to us or me.

And please give me another chance.

And he's crying.

But like, if we are, if we're trying to give Jesse the benefit of the doubt, or, or at least, if we try to, at least put ourselves in his shoes, why do you feel like he had such a hard time being a guy claiming to want to make this marriage work?

Yeah.

Why do you think he had such a hard time like just doing anything to try to save it?

Because yeah, well, I think one, he never thought in a million years I would actually leave because I tried to leave once and he convinced me of staying.

So he was like, she's, I have a kid with her.

Once that happens, you know, it's in your head.

Yeah, you would think.

And he did try for a couple weeks.

And then we moved into the Marmont house.

And it was like.

The day that we moved in, we had movers and he got so wasted with his friend.

And I have the baby and I'm directing all the movers of what to do and everything.

And he was so drunk out of his mind, he couldn't walk to his bed.

And I'm like, this is like a moment for me.

I've never lived in a house.

Like it was a big moment that we were moving into a house.

Like your first house with your family, like your daughter.

Yeah.

And it was just like another little example of like, this should be a special moment or a nice moment.

Like you don't need to get drunk with your guy friend on the corner while we have movers and a child and trying to figure everything out.

Did that kind of feel like a pattern of like he would ruin special moments for you?

A lot.

Often, yeah.

What was your birth like with Isabella?

I've mentioned it.

Um, it was

hard because I was pregnant and I had her in April 2020, which was the worst time of COVID.

Yeah, wow.

Every day, the law was changing in the hospital whether a parent could go in or if one person could go in.

So, I didn't even know.

And I was always afraid of giving birth.

Like, that was my one thing.

I hate hospitals, blood, pain, all of that.

so i remember having contractions at like 9 p.m this is like april 13th

and he's going to bed and i'm like i'm starting to feel it he's like well try to go as long as you can because they always send you back from the hospital if you're not if you're not like close enough close enough exactly so All night he slept.

He's like, wake me up when you think you're ready to go.

So he slept the entire night in our master bedroom.

And I'm texting my sister.

She's like, you know, time your contractions.

And like the whole night, I was in a lot of pain.

And it's finally like 8 a.m.

or 7 a.m.

And I'm like, I need to wake him up.

So I wake him up.

He's like, very well rested.

I'm like, we need to go really.

Like, I remember I couldn't really breathe.

He's like, I'm going to make you breakfast and then we can go.

So he gave me a bite of eggs and I threw up immediately.

And I'm like, I need to go to the hospital now.

So I check in.

They give me the epidural.

That was kind of an argument because he didn't really want me to have it.

But I said, I'm having it.

I was in so much.

Why didn't he have an opinion?

Yeah, I was that to say this isn't.

He had an opinion about everything.

If it were up to him, which he tried to convince me while I was pregnant, I would have had a water birth at home in the bath all natural by myself with him.

Based off of what knowledge.

He doesn't believe in doctors and medicine and just cocaine.

Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, it's like, again, my sister's a holistic nutritionist and she's into all that stuff, but like she went to school and studied.

And like, you know, if I ask her a question, she can articulate a point of view and a, and, you know, not just like to be different.

So long story short,

I was in, at seven centimeters for 20 hours and I was getting high blood pressure.

I was starting to get really ill.

And the doctor's like, we need to give you plitocin to help you.

And Jesse was very anti, absolutely not.

And so my.

Do you know what that is?

I think he did a quick Google search search, like while they said it, and then he's like, no, he can't.

So he's fighting with

imagine playing doctor at a hospital.

He's, he's arguing with the doctor and like, I barely can breathe and I'm just not feeling good.

And finally, I just hear the doctor like, I'm overruling you.

This can affect the baby and Michelle.

And so he did it.

And then finally, I had Isabella and he had about 15 minutes with her and had to go home.

So I had to be at the hospital by myself.

Why do you have to go home?

For COVID.

COVID.

COVID.

Yeah.

So he was allowed like 15 minutes with her.

Wow.

And that was the start.

I was about to say, and then I can't even imagine like postpartum.

Obviously, you go through so much physically, mentally, emotionally.

And like, thankfully, I didn't have any postpartum depression.

Thank God.

Cause then I really don't know what I would have done, but it was overall really hard because I didn't have my mom come visit.

Nobody knew what it was.

At the time, everybody was like cleaning Amazon boxes.

And I'm like, I don't want my baby to have COVID.

Nobody's coming to visit.

And so I just did everything on my own.

Jesus.

And he, and he, he was present when she was born because he had no option.

Everything was closed down.

There was no work, no, no restaurants, no nothing.

Like, was he, you know, helping you with like?

No, I breastfed.

That was also very important that I always only breastfed.

So I breastfed for almost over a year, almost a year and a half.

Jesse, it was important.

It was important to me, but

it it was important to us, but I'm just kind of curious how

opinionated he was about what you should do with your life.

Now looking back, I was just so used to like, that was my relationship.

It is kind of crazy to think, like, who I am now.

And I think that's part of his frustration because he can't control me anymore.

Was there a part of you that when you...

Once you had Isabella, you started seeing all these changes in your husband.

Was there a part of you that, like, did, did a lot of this happen in front of Isabella?

Like, the way he spoke, we see the way he speaks speaks to you on tv yeah so did he speak to you like that in front of isabella yeah and i saw it starting to affect her and like even if he raised his voice a little bit at me like she would say like guys or like she didn't want us and she couldn't like she wouldn't even allow jesse to come close to me and hug me because she had never seen Jesse give me a hug.

So it was very odd to her.

And I just started realizing how like this was her new normal life.

And I'm like, this is not normal for my husband or her dad to like not hug me.

And that's weird to my daughter.

That's when I knew like something's not right.

Did it cross your mind, like

her growing up and like choosing her partner and how that would affect her long term?

Yes.

And that is what gave me the courage to leave.

If I didn't have her, I don't know if I would have left.

Yeah.

And somebody said that to me, the life coach was like, what would you say to your daughter if she was married to a Jesse?

And that just opened up my eyes.

And I'm like, I can't do this for her.

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I keep going back to like, here's what fascinates me about your ex-husband is that he comes across.

I've never met him in person.

I hope.

uh to have an opportunity to have him on this couch.

We'll see if see if he's up for it.

He'll be very charming.

He'll try to change how you feel about it.

I'm sure he will.

I look forward to that opportunity.

I don't think he's met me before.

He comes across as a guy who cares deeply about what people think of him.

And yet he comes across on TV as an absolute fucking asshole.

I know what it's like to go on TV not knowing what it's like and not wanting to be the villain, you know, and turning out to be a villain.

And be like, oh, you know, and then have an editing room just kind of focus on just some stupid looks you make or some like sarcastic remarks you make and have them package that into like a persona that you didn't even try to play.

But the benefit of going on multiple seasons and recurring seasons is one, everyone loves a comeback, an arc.

And, you know, we had Tom Schwartz here the other day and he tells us that we're going to see a softer side of Jesse and maybe we will, but I hate him so much as a character on a show.

And he comes across as so unlikable.

Even for the guy who

that's that's that's the part I don't get.

you know what i'm saying like if he he doesn't seem like he's an idiot for the most part he's so smart cares deeply what people think and like he had the benefit of watching himself on season one how is he showing up in being such a prick and he's trying his hardest because i'm telling you like he had a binder he had scripts he has ideas he goes in there completely with an agenda what do you mean a binder of like of like what he wants to say once he wants to what he wants to do

everything like for example being friends with Kristen, like that was a very strategic thing that he did because he knew that that was going to bother me.

He knew that that was going to have people love him.

He has this binder.

He was the

underwear in that binder because

I don't know if you guys realize he can drink so much and be okay.

He was so drunk the entire time in Santa Barbara.

So drunk.

So that was late.

And I don't think he was expecting anybody to go in his room.

What made him buy that underwear in the first place?

I just more like.

So I have to say, he did have night underwear, like sleeping underwear and daytime underwear.

What's the difference?

One of them, you sleep.

Just get skims, man.

You know,

kind of like.

But he didn't have those while I was married to him.

I don't know.

You know, we love downtown Abbey.

Was he in his night comfy underwear when he got called?

Yeah, those were his cozy panties.

That was was crazy.

So he really planned out.

He plans everything he's going to do for this show.

Yeah.

And I'm the complete opposite.

I'm like that.

But it's not working for him.

It's not.

And he tries so hard, but like the real him comes out here and there.

And I'm like, people don't really see like the fool Jesse.

You just see bits and pieces.

At the scene early on this season where you go, I think it might have been the first episode, you go to his house to kind of talk about the schedule with Isabella and he starts crying and you're like, Come on, don't

like you, like you knew that that was you can tell him cry and he'll cry, like tears.

He can do it, no problem.

That acting class, really.

So, you think we've only seen fake tears from Jesse?

I think so.

I mean, the only thing is his ego was really hurt in season one, but I think it's all, it was just all for the cameras.

Do you think it's more like the way you talk?

You know,

it's like I'm trying to figure out whether he was just

always kind kind of a bad guy, a bad partner with bad expectations of what it meant to be a good partner or a good husband or a good, or do you feel like he changed as a person?

I think now looking back, he was always kind of a bad guy, but he has good ways of like hiding it.

I think to his core, he's not a great guy.

Like he thinks about himself before others first.

And I think that's the biggest problem that I had with him him because i'm the opposite i think about others first and so i mean he used to always tell me like growing up people always said that i was entitled and it's because he does think he's better than everybody he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room he'll say it he'll probably say that to your face he just thinks he's better and smarter

what what was you're usually not when you think that and

every room and yesterday i went

yesterday i went to go see houses and there's some people that are barely learning that we're not together.

And I ran into agents that knew us really well.

They're like, wait, you're not together?

That makes perfect sense.

I always wanted to tell you.

And so many people are like, just telling me, like, you guys should have never ended up together.

I never saw it.

I'm like, why didn't people tell me?

Thanks now.

Yeah.

My parents said that once about my second girlfriend.

I was like,

could have been, you know, but I think sometimes, you know, we don't, we're not very receptive to it in the moment.

I was just going to ask what your family was like at home, like growing up.

Were your parents together?

Are they together?

My parents were married until I was 13.

They were really in love with each other, but my dad had a mental disorder, so he left the family.

Sorry.

But I'm the youngest.

I have a brother and sister.

And I came from like the most loving, normal family, I guess you could say, ever.

I'm very close to my family.

I'm trying not to get emotional because my mom passed away.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Okay.

When did she pass?

in november oh my god yeah so that was another thing in this season that i was going through so much with jesse and he knows that my mom was very sick and in chemo and so i was just like unwell because i was dealing with his bullshit and my mom's chemo and um yeah she passed she passed away after filming Do you think he has any idea?

Yeah, I'm just really sorry.

That must, I just can't imagine like

going through that and then having Jesse who is like supposed to be your human, you know, your rock, your partner like terrorize you.

And that's why sometimes I hate him so much and it shows because he never gave me sympathy.

He never like, he was just never caring what he never had your back.

I know.

It's really hard.

I'm really sorry.

Thank you.

I mean, do you think he's kind of like a monster?

Yeah.

I wish, I wish he was in, and I wish I could say he's this like wonderful person.

And I hope that one day he can grow, but he never has.

Was your mom really proud of you for getting out of that marriage?

Yeah.

She was very happy that I left.

And in the summer, she had to have immediate surgery.

And so I drove to San Diego and my family saw me really unwell.

And it was the day after Dave and Busters.

And so I hadn't slept and I cried all night and I didn't want to say anything.

And my family's like, what's wrong?

And I was just in my head because I didn't know what to say.

And I'm like, I don't want to say this.

She was in the hospital.

And she's like, just tell me.

And I'm like, Jesse called me a hooker on national TV.

And my whole family was just like, we knew what a disgusting person he is, but he'll never be accepted in our family in the future.

Did he ever reach out to you after your mom passed?

Yes, I I had Isabella FaceTime him and I said that she needed to let him know.

And she called him and told him, she said, grandma went to heaven.

And he actually sent me a nice text, a very nice text saying like, I'm so sorry for your loss.

If there's anything I can do, please let me know.

And so that day was my day with Isabella.

And I'm like, I don't, an hour later, I'm like, I don't think I can take care of her.

I need you to please take over.

And we actually talked to a therapist once about Isabella and how we were going to handle my mom's passing because she was so close to her and we were on the same page.

And the therapist told Jesse, like, you need to, you need to be better with Michelle.

She's going to need you and you're going to need to take Isabella more days because she's going to need to grieve on her own without Isabella.

So I text him, I need you to take care of her that day.

And he's like, oh, I'm sorry.

I'm already on my way to OC.

I can't.

And so hours later, somebody must have told him something, but he's like, why don't you get a nanny and I'll pay for it tonight?

And that was the only nice thing he's ever really done.

And that wasn't even to me, like.

I mean, he couldn't, but the OC is where his, the girlfriend is.

So he couldn't even be like,

hey, this is a little bit more important.

I'm going to.

My child's grandmother died.

Even if he didn't want to make it about you.

So that's all I can say.

Like.

This is why I'm so angry and I'm still angry because it's just like one after the other.

And there's only so much I could take.

And I just realized like he was awful to me and he's continuing to be.

And there's just like, that's why I talk about him.

And it's hard not to because he does so much to me that people have no idea.

Yeah, he doesn't hold back at all.

Do you think his accusing you of the infidelity is all part of his, is in his binder, so to speak, and part of his plan?

Yeah.

So we actually met because he said, I want to speak before the summer so that we're on the same same page.

So, he made me go to his friend's house and sat me down.

And he's like, I don't want you to talk about our finances.

I don't want you to say a word.

Like, that was so important to him, his, the finances, because he's in a lot of trouble.

And I said, Okay.

And he's like, Tell me the truth about what happened.

So, I told him the story.

I made a mistake before I left him.

That's part of the reason why I left him because I knew I no longer wanted to be in this marriage.

I kissed somebody.

I should have never done it.

And that's it.

And so he's like, have you ever been with Aaron?

I'm like, absolutely not.

That happened after I asked for a divorce.

And so he knew everything before the summer.

I was very clear.

I answered all of his questions.

I said, for Isabella's sake, can we please not discuss this?

And he's like, I swear I will not say this on TV.

And every single day.

He was fixated and that was all he could talk about when he knew the truth about everything.

Yeah, no, he's he's meeting his life coach or therapist and making it a part of the conversation and suggesting that you were cheating on him for two years and sleeping around.

And he knew that that wasn't the case.

He was the one always gone.

Like, God knows what the hell he was doing for eight hours a day.

I mean, even the whole like, Erin lives by Runyon.

She would wear makeup to Runyon and she would put the honey in.

It was just, it felt very calculated.

And so it does make sense that you say that like he has all of this planned out because it seemed very planned out.

Yeah.

And I didn't wear makeup to Runyon.

But also like it's LA.

Everyone's wearing makeup to Runyon.

Like you never know who you're going to meet.

Literally hiding behind bushes.

Yeah.

So he was aware.

He just wanted the world to know and to paint me as this like bad person.

And he got what he like, I don't know what he got from it, but.

What kind of money problems does he have?

I mean, the gay man is sending him money.

Were you just kind of being petty there?

I wasn't being petty.

I was trying to make a point because he knew that somebody had sent me money and I told him why.

And he knew this person very, very well.

And I'm like, why are you allowed to make up shit about me?

But I'm not allowed to talk about your finances or what's actually going on.

But no, like the same time that I got a payment, he also got a payment from somebody, which was more than I got.

So it's just frustrating because he's always trying to create this narrative.

And I'm just like, stop saying things about me.

I'm tired of being silenced.

His lies are based off these tiny truths that he then snowballs into something more nefarious and

that makes you look worse.

Exactly.

So is it like his money problems are just from like overspending or?

Like I said, he's just an overspender.

If we, I'm just going to throw out numbers, like if we made $500,000 a year, he spent $800,000.

It was just like constant, constant.

I have to take my family to Europe.

And he spent 120,000 just on his mom, dad, and brother.

Like he was spending an enormous amount, not just like, you know, a thousand dollars here.

No, it was like $10,000 lunches.

I'm going to Napa for the weekend.

I'm spending $30,000.

It was just non-stop.

And I was watching just like it drop and drop and drop.

And it wasn't for me.

Yeah.

We had Tom here and he was like, oh, Jesse might not be like great, but he's an amazing father and he loves his daughter.

I get frustrated sometimes when I hear stuff like that because it's like, I think sometimes, especially dads, it's like they just decide that they're good dads because their version of love, I don't know, I'm sure he loves, I'm sure Jesse thinks he loves his daughter, but like how you show up for your family to me is a demonstration of whether you're a good father or not.

And I say he's a good father because he's able to by himself take care of Isabella and do all of the things where I don't know if every man can do that on their own.

He's able to do that.

You trust him to feed her three meals a day and like give her a bed, take her to school.

Bare minimum.

Absolutely.

I think she's safe.

But somebody recently told me, like, he's not a good dad because of the way he treats you and your daughter's going to see that.

So like, yes, he may think he's a good dad, but he's never going to be a good father until he treats you the right way.

Right.

Unless he stops, yeah, calling you.

I mean, calling the mother of his child on national television a lying, cheating whore.

I mean,

I don't know how you move past that.

I still haven't.

I still haven't because I know, like, he says it was a mistake that he sent a text.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

He knew that all those people in the boys' chat were, one of them was going to say something like he implanted that on purpose instead of, you know, saying what he says, says, which is like, it was a mistake.

I didn't know that people were going to talk about it.

It was just a joke.

It's so funny.

It was just a joke is what I feel like he keeps like is his excuse for everything.

It's like, oh, it's just a joke.

It's like, to who?

And where is this?

Like, he seems like watching it that he's his whole sole purpose is to torture you.

He seems like an emotional terrorist.

I think he

did and has been for the last two years.

What do you love about being a mom?

Everything.

Yeah.

She's amazing.

She completes me.

I'm very involved.

I don't believe in, I let her watch like a little TV, but when I'm with her, we love like painting and going to the park.

And she's very advanced for her age.

So like our discussions are really funny and cute.

She's actually like, I love this story because we're just driving and she's like, mommy, you know, it's okay that your first marriage didn't work out, but you can have, you can get married again.

I'm like, thank you.

Don't, you don't need to worry about me, but she's just really adorable.

How do you handle, I mean, like one part, people watching it, and people have a lot of opinions, and we have as well.

And just obviously, like, just hearing your side of the story and now they both have a ton of empathy for you because it really, I mean, he does, he just seems like a lot of this is by his doing.

And he honestly seems like an emotionally abusive person.

I don't know how else to describe it.

I mean, I don't know what how you I don't know, like, if that's not emotionally abusive to strategize around

like trying to emotionally terrorize your wife or ex-wife and then that maybe the maybe the substance abuse problems and the spending problems are a cause of it but like i just don't like that's just how he seems i think at the end of the day it was because of his ego was hurt and he could not imagine that somebody left him and somebody left like the for perfect family illusion and like he cares about what other people thinks and so that's really what it came down to because i don't think he truly loved me at the end at all like he could have done anything to fix it and he didn't.

When y'all initially separated, did you kind of have a like rule or boundary around dating and new people surrounding Isabella?

Kind of like, we're not going to just put anybody around our daughter.

Yes.

Actually, he made the rule.

He said, he makes a lot of rules.

He has a lot of rules for you that don't apply to him.

Correct.

Yeah.

He said,

we're not introducing anybody to Isabella.

You're never going to introduce a man.

I said, well, that's not true.

There's going to come a point where I meet, but I will let you know.

And if you want to meet them before, or if we want to do it together, like, I will let you know.

And there'll be the right time.

And as her mother, I'll know when that right time is.

And he's like, fine.

And then my mom actually was in town doing Isabella's hair.

And Isabella told my mom.

because she had like a really nice braid.

She's like, did your dad learn how to do a braid?

She's like, oh no, daddy's friend came over and did it.

And she's like, yeah.

And my mom started asking a couple of questions.

And she's like, yeah, there was a girl in daddy's bed.

And so I started calling him and texting him.

And I'm like, what's going on?

And he's like, what are you talking about?

He's like, nobody was here.

I'm like, Isabella told me what is going on.

And finally, he's like, oh, I just had a friend here.

I'm like, you told me we weren't introducing somebody.

And you just.

Well, she's doing her hair.

Yeah.

And it's just so frustrating because I'm like, all I care about is Isabella.

And it's like, if you're dating her for a week, you don't know if you're going to to date her in a month.

Like, just wait or have a conversation and give me a heads up or anything.

Like, just do things the right way.

And I've learned like, he's not going to do what I would do.

To me, these things are common sense, but I've just learned like, I can't control him.

And this, is that the same woman who sent you the nasty texts?

Yeah.

And the ceased and disagreement.

Are they still dating?

I've heard they're on and off.

Why was she reaching out to you?

Recently.

Oh,

I guess in general.

I really don't want to talk about her.

That's fine.

Yeah.

That's fair.

I don't want any communication with her.

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Can we talk about Aaron?

Yeah.

Are you still dating?

We are dating.

Okay, good.

He's my happy place.

Him and Isabella.

If I didn't have them last summer, I don't know where I would be.

You kind of hinted in the most recent episode kind of that he was starting to struggle with Jesse.

and kind of was like, listen, if this doesn't stop, like, I don't know if we can continue.

How did you move past that with him?

I had to learn boundaries with Jesse because at the time I was really allowing him to text me all day long and really affect my mood.

And it was starting to affect like me when I was with Aaron and he was working so he didn't go to Santa Barbara and he obviously heard what happened.

And he was just really upset that he would say those things to me.

And he's like, I'm so angry.

I can't even be in the same room as him.

And so it did take a toll for a while, but we spoke and he's like, you need to take a step back.

You need to have boundaries with Jesse.

He cannot just talk to you whenever he wants.

And so I cut Jesse completely.

If he texts me, I didn't respond.

I just didn't have any communication with him unless I had to ask him a question about Isabella.

And so that helped me a lot, but it was a process because I was just so used to constantly fighting with Jesse.

And so once I cut him off, that made a big difference.

And how long have you and Aaron been together now?

Almost a year and a half.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

And Isabella likes him?

Loves him.

I actually just moved in two months ago to his house.

Yeah.

My lease was up.

So I moved out of Marmont.

I got an apartment really close by because I didn't want to affect anything.

I lived there for a year.

And then finally, it was just like we had the conversation.

We have a very strong relationship.

And he's like, I want you to move in.

I have the space.

He has a three-bedroom house.

And so we just moved in.

What are some qualities about Aaron that you love that Jesse didn't have?

He's a lot like me.

He's really easygoing and he's, he doesn't have to show off anything.

I love that like we go to church every Sunday and he's just like a really nice guy and everybody likes him.

Like that was the thing about Jesse.

I always felt like I had to fight for him.

And a lot of people

convince people all the time.

And it's just organic and easy with Aaron.

And it's like, he's part of this big brother program and he helps kids once a week.

And he's just like a very giving person and when the la fires happen like he wanted to donate and like how can we help the world and he's just like a good person and jesse just didn't have that i never had that life with jesse wow why did he think of being friends with kristen would piss you off first of all They hated each other.

There was a time I was very close to Kristen, which was the first time I wanted to leave Jesse.

I was texting her all the time.

I told her when I found the apartment.

She couldn't stand Jesse and Jesse could not stand Kristen.

Like the things he has said about her, he just thought she's trash and she's this and that.

And like the worst things you can say, he would say about her.

Like he didn't even understand how I was friends with Kristen.

And like fast forward, now,

you know, they're friends and it doesn't make sense because I know exactly what they have said about each other.

And he knows like every a lot of people do love Kristen and she's like an OG.

And so if he tagged with her, then that's just going to be, you know, they have somebody in common.

A lot was made of your seat assignment at the reunion.

Like, do you have any thoughts on that?

And then a follow-up to that is like, what do you think your future with this show is?

And like, do you think it's something you want to be a part of?

Well, I've been told that it was the hardest seating chart because nobody got along.

And it's like, it was one of the hardest ones to do for a reunion.

They said at one point I was in the front and and they just kept switching people.

And at the end of the day, like that was the best case.

I didn't mind it because I wasn't close to Jesse.

I mean, it's just a seating chart.

Yeah, I

fans seem to make a big deal about it.

And there's a lot of speculation on how these things are made.

But yeah, thanks for, you know, thanks for clearing that up.

It just seems like, yeah, so everyone hates each other.

Good, good to know.

Do you want to be a part of this?

Like knowing that like it's one thing to be a co-parent, but like choosing to be a part of this show, don't think Jesse's going to go anywhere unless he's fired.

Like,

I struggle with that.

I think, yes, because it's like, look at what I went through season one and two.

Like, it's only uphill from now, right?

Like, I'm like, what else?

Like, I had the most difficult two, three years of my life.

And now I'm finally got out of that situation.

I now have a healthy relationship.

My daughter is growing up.

Like, they are still my friends, you know, some of my best friends.

And so it does seem like maybe part of the positive turn seems to be what you referenced earlier is like your ability to no longer allow him to like get to you.

Cause it really seemed like, and I imagine it makes sense, right?

You go, you're married for someone for a long time, you have okay with him, fine, you finally choose to leave, but that like, I need to respond to this person.

We have a kid together.

That guilt of like allowing this person to like take up so much of your energy we kind of see that with jackson brittany this season where he just constantly texts her and she responds and she you know i know brittany's always like i always say she's one year behind me and i'm like just learn from me and i was texting her the other day i'm like don't engage don't respond like yeah but you have to go through that and i think most divorced people especially with kids do have that like i don't know what you call it

like that kind of pass where you have to kind of go through all that yeah that makes sense So you see yourself continuing on this show and kind of just drawing the boundary with Jesse, not letting him get to you, still being able to hang out with your friends, support your family.

I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom mentioned that we might see a softer side of Jesse in season two.

And regardless of what we see, I'm curious, based off our conversation today, I'm assuming you don't think we should believe any of it.

It's hard because even

now,

like we're, he's shifted now.

The night before the reunion, he decided to change.

And so he sent an email to my lawyer.

So I have a lawyer.

He does it.

And so I've, my lawyer has gone back and forth with Jesse for months and months.

It's cost me so much money.

He's been so unreasonable.

And the night before the reunion, I don't, he just like was like, I'm tired of fighting.

I just want to move forward for our mental health settle so we could get divorced.

And he went on watch what happens live.

And he's like, Michelle and I are good.

And all of his answers were not sincere or the truth.

And that's my frustration.

I'm like, could you answer one question and just say the truth?

Do you kind of think it's because y'all aren't filming right now?

You know, like he like performs.

We're better because we don't talk.

Like there is no talking anymore.

The way the schedule is, it's like I drop it off Isabella at school.

He picks her up.

So we don't have to see each other right now.

And he knew all of this was coming up.

I don't know.

I do think he finally, at least he wants to move forward with the divorce because that was like another thing that was just dragging and making my life very complicated.

But it just like, I think everything, again, is very strategic for him to go on watch what happens live and say we're good because he decided that we're now good.

And I'm like, it does, life doesn't work that way.

You've been treating me like shit every single day.

Like it's a process.

Wow.

Well, Michelle, I appreciate you coming on.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

I mean, I guess why don't you leave us with a little bit of advice?

There's a lot of people out there, I'm sure, sadly going through what you've gone through.

And it sounds like you've had to learn some tough lessons.

But if there are any mothers or even husbands out there who listen to you and relate to you with what you're going through, what are some things that you wish you would have done differently to spare yourself some of the mental anguish you've gone through?

Oh, so many.

First of all, you know, your gut is usually right about a lot of things.

So it's like, if you really are done, not that I'm encouraging divorce, but like, I don't think it's good to be married and then wait till the child is 10 or 15 years old to do it.

I think it's better to do it when they're younger because like even Isabella, like this is her new normal.

She doesn't even remember us together.

I think that's really good.

for children.

If you're even considering getting divorced, having somebody do some financial paperwork in the event that if you do get divorced, that everything's okay and you're taken care of.

I did it the hard way and I wish somebody told me that because it would have changed a lot of things.

Just being responsible, asking questions, like reach out to a lawyer, ask them questions.

Is he going to pay you child support?

No.

So we were business partners and we split all of the commissions, meaning we technically made the same income, which I think he did that on purpose because I didn't work the last couple years and he still was splitting the commission.

So he doesn't have to pay me a cent.

So that's, that's that.

Well, you should be very proud of yourself for the place that you're at now versus the place that you were at.

a few years ago.

You really are, I think to a lot of women listening, an inspiration.

And I'm very proud of of you.

I know I just met you, but going through what you went through, losing your mom, having your ex-husband terrorize you, knowing you went through that, you should be very proud of yourself of where you are now.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Yeah.

Thank you for coming on.

Well, where can people find you, by the way?

Plug.

Instagram, michelle.sennye.

Okay.

Yeah.

We'll put it in our box.

All right, Michelle.

I appreciate you coming on.

Thanks for being so long sharing.

You're great.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people will appreciate you sharing your story.

Okay.

And that's it.

I'm not talking about him anymore because that was very Jesse heavy.

Yeah.

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