E986 – Going Deeper with James Gunn

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James, welcome to the show.

Oh man, it's good to be here.

This is really exciting for me.

I'm glad you're here.

I'm very excited about talking about Peacemaker, but just like right off the get, like anecdotally,

you know, thinking about having you come in, it's a cool moment for me.

I've known you for a long time.

I know.

We've known you for a long time.

Well, you met me as a fan of yours

because I was,

I liked you

on The Bachelor.

And then when you had your season of The Bachelor, I did a little video

for the show show saying, we're team, me and Jen did a video where I said, you know, we're team Nick, go Nick, right?

It was something like that.

It was like that.

Yeah.

And it was, and it was, uh, you know, because Alan Gale

was the greatest, uh, greatest, he's one of my best friends in the world.

Greatest showrunner of The Bachelor.

Yeah.

The single most reason why I was ever The Bachelor.

There's a lot of people who will take credit for whatever success they think I've had on that show.

And it's really, I know it's Alan.

Yeah.

He always advocated for me because I was never one of the, I was never like their kind of guy, so to speak.

Yeah.

But I was Alon's kind of guy, which I appreciated.

But it reminded me, like just when I started this show was right before you had your going away party for Suicide Squad 2.

And you graciously invited me.

And I could only make the first hour because that was the first and only live show I've ever done.

But I had, I was like less than 10 episodes in.

We're about to hit our thousandths episode.

Thousandth episode.

Wow.

So to have you, like, to have you here as a guest is a cool moment and a chance to interview you.

But it's just like, it made me think about just how you started your career.

I mean, you're the head of DC Studios, director of some of the coolest movies, certainly comic books out there, reality TV fan.

We love to throw in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like, also just.

Do you ever just like look back in your career and like reflect on just like, you know, how it started to how it is, and and ever

because how surreal does it sometimes feel?

I'm here promoting Peacemaker, right?

And I've done I'm doing a lot for this season of Peacemaker, and it's because I love the show so much, but it isn't, it is a communal sport.

It's like it's not what I did, although I do like my work on the show, but I love the work of, you know, the stunt coordinators and the actors and all the other people that added to the show.

I'm so proud of all of that.

Um, that it's it's just been this this just wonderful, wonderful journey with this show through two seasons that

there's no holds barred with this show.

I'm able to do anything and we do do anything, you know, even if it's a dance sequence to, you know, heads exploding to an orgy to deep emotional resonant scenes.

All of it's available to us.

And it's just been so much fun.

Well, that's why I love Peacemaker so much.

I've told you this for everything you just described.

and i think just in general i've always been a fan of your work is

i'm i'm more of the casual comic book fan like i wasn't the kid who read every comic book i watched the movies you know i grew up watching star wars and things like that and i've always felt like whether it was guardians of galaxy superman peacemaker for sure anyone can watch it you don't like you because i hopefully not small children watching not small children but any adult certainly any adult because you're so good at interpersonal relationships And then so much of your work, I just feel like you're connecting to the human spirit, so to speak.

And you can watch it, not necessarily being someone who's like a die-hard comic book fan and connect to the characters that you write.

Like, is that intentional for you?

Or are you, is that something that just kind of organically happens?

I think it's organic.

I mean, I just, I love characters.

You know, I love the characters that I write.

I really fall in love with them.

But I also, you know, I love comic books and comic book characters, and they're outlandish and at times can be silly and at times can be, you know, creepy or whatever.

But for me, it always starts with the question, what if they were real?

And

the thing that is the most important to be real for me is their psychological, who they are and how they think and what they believe.

You know, and so when I make the Superman movie, you know, I think there's been a lot of Superman movies, and usually it's super first, man second.

Our movie is man first, super second.

And that's what it's about.

With Peacemaker, he's not even a, I mean, the costume is just, it's, it's just a thing he, he wears, and he doesn't even wear it that much in season two.

Yeah.

And it really is the Christopher Smith show, um, you know, or the Christopher Smith and Friends show.

And that's those characters I fall in love with.

I mean, I love, you know, one of the weird things about Peacemaker too, and I'm getting off track of anything you're asking me, is that, so I made three, you know, guardians movies and i'm that's what i'm mostly associated with that's you know six hours of film i've made two seasons of peacemaker you know and that's you know it's not they're not each an hour but you know it's it's it's you know over 10 hours of film um and so these characters are the characters i've gotten to know the best in a lot of ways and um and really have by far to me the 11th street kids have the most complicated personalities or complex personalities of any of the characters I've dealt with.

And when you're writing these characters, are you writing with an actor in mind or does that?

Well, I mean, so in Peace, yes,

in Peacemaker, I can tell you completely what I did.

So the character of Peacemaker, of course, I already had established that in Suicide Squad.

So that was John.

The character of Amelia Harcourt, who plays my wife Jen, and John Akanimos and my friend Steve, they were both in Suicide Squad.

So those three characters were like the foundation.

Then I needed, I really wanted somebody who was the opposite force of Peacemaker in the first season, somebody who was going to challenge all of his

thoughts and who he was about the world, but also kind of create a buddy comedy between

a romance that's platonic between two characters who were completely different.

And so I created the character of Leota Edebayo

and I loved Orange is a New Black, but I especially loved a couple of actors on that show, one of whom was Danielle Brooks.

And so I did write

the show, thinking of imagining Danielle as the character, not knowing for sure that

she was going to be able to do it or that HBO would be, yeah, okay, you can, you can do it with Danielle Brooks versus, oh, no, we need a bigger star or something.

And so it was always written for Danielle, you know, but other times, like I wrote in the first season, there's a character of Mern played by Chikwoodi Owuji, who went up to play the High Evolutionary.

Great guy, one of the best actors I've ever worked with.

And I wrote that role for Lance Reddick.

If you remember Lance from, you know, what's Lance Move the Wire?

Okay, yeah.

And

Lance wanted to do it, but he couldn't because he had another show.

And so I had to find another actor.

And Chuck Woody came in.

And it wasn't like he just had a completely.

completely different take on the character.

And I think it's probably the best performance in season one.

Yeah, so it just it changed so that challenges you to kind of go back in and tweak those characters to well maybe you're new somebody somebody like chuck just he just found a way in he didn't there was nothing changed about the the dialogue that the characters said but the way he approached it was so which was how he got that role because there's a scene where he is because

His character has been taken over by a butterfly, which is these insects that crawl into people's brains and drive them around like skin cars.

But they still retain the memories and the feelings and the emotions and the thoughts of whoever the post-body is.

So they're able to access all those feelings.

And he has to deliver this speech about how he took over the worst person in the world he could find because he wanted to be moral about it.

but he still lives with that person's thoughts and feelings and sees that even he had the capacity to change.

And it's just such a multi-layered performance that if you see Chuck do it, it's like, wow, crazy.

How, like, growing up, I mean, you've, when I went to the Garden of the Galaxy 2 premiere, that you invited me to, and you kind of addressed the audience and briefly just talked about,

you know, kind of your inspiration writing.

And I think you referenced like the relationship growing up with your, your parents and things like that.

So how is that you know just in general again that kind of in in touchness that you have with your your emotions and and your interest in those interpersonal relationships like as a young man were you always pretty self-aware about your emotions and things like that no no i really wasn't i was um I was a pretty rough kid, but I got sober when I was very young

and went through rehab when I was 19 years old and have stayed sober since then.

And I think that gave me an access to my emotions and feelings that most guys, especially, don't have at 19 years old.

Now, I still was incredibly rough around the edges.

Sure.

You know, played in bands and still was not, you know, I used every other drug that wasn't actually a drug to cover up my feelings.

But it was, but it did, it did start this, I think, journey in life of trying to be equally attuned to my thoughts and my feelings and being aware of

how those things drive me

and where those things are a way to cover up.

It's funny because

we're here in town in New York celebrating my birthday with my best friends.

I was sitting outside with Michaela Hoover this morning.

And I lost my temper slightly with something this morning, not on a person, but something I had heard somebody say and I was complaining about it.

And

she said, but it's good to feel anger.

I said, I don't know.

I don't, I don't really feel anger is actually a feeling.

I think that anger is the thing we do to avoid something else.

I think that we feel embarrassment.

And so we react with anger because we want to deny that.

We feel hurt.

So we react with anger.

Anger is really, we feel fear.

We react with anger.

And especially men, that's like something we do all the time.

And I'm not a psychologist, although I do have a psychology degree.

But I'm not a psychologist.

And I, you know, maybe there is some sort of pure anger that has nothing to do related to another emotion.

No, I think that makes a lot of sense.

For the most part, it seems like it's always covering up something else.

Yeah, it's like that initial reaction and.

you don't know how to process it.

And so it manifests in the form of anger.

Of anger, yeah.

Which is with this whole story of Rocket raccoon right like that's his whole incredible that's his journey over three movies is he's angry but he's not he's alone yeah you know he's alone and you know he doesn't have a sense of purpose do you have do your characters whether throughout all your different projects do they ever represent a very specific person in your life throughout your life or you know definitely i mean yandu's my dad i mean yandu is so much my dad you know,

a totally imperfect father growing up, but I knew he loved me at the end of the day.

And I always think that if your parents give you one thing, it's, it's that they love you.

And I think that if you know you're loved by your parents, I mean, my dad was really bad in certain ways growing up, but I'd rather have that bad stuff and know I was loved than the other way around, somebody who's sort of perfect, but you don't feel like they love you.

You know, that's hard.

Yeah, because as new parents, like we're, that's the thing.

We want to make sure our daughter knows she feels our love.

And like, we do our best to be parents.

We know we're going to fuck up.

Like we know we'll mess up.

But it's, yeah.

You just want to be there, be present.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So my dad.

I mean, my dad was never there, but he, he did love me.

And I knew he loved me.

And that's a weird thing.

I don't know why.

I just knew that he did.

Probably because he was very an emotional, you know, Irish.

Did you know it growing up or was that something you look back on

yourself?

Well, I mean, there were a couple of rough years there in the middle, but for the most part, I knew he loved me.

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You've worked with obviously John Cena for Peacemaker, David Batista for Guardians of the Galaxy.

And I have like a special appreciation for those particular actors.

When I got done with reality TV and I went out to Hollywood and I, you know, got into acting and hosting and doing this.

When you come from a like a very

like real TV space, there's a lot of like, you get pigeonholed and people make a lot of assumptions about you.

And it was when my friends would say, well, why, why are you doing this?

Like no one's ever really successfully transitioned.

And I'd always reference people like John and David as people, it's just like, they used to be wrestlers.

They used to only be known as wrestlers and they have become brilliant actors.

Like I really like respect what John and David have done because you can tell they hone in on their craft.

Is it a coincidence you've worked so much with both of these guys?

And what do you like, what do you think makes them so unique?

And I, because to me, it feels like they have this incredible work ethic and like dedication to their craft.

And I think it really, it shows in their work.

Yeah, they're both incredibly talented guys.

I mean, the thing that attracted me to Dave was he just had this

rawness and this realness in his eyes that was just really potent.

And

I loved that about him.

And it's actually not that much different than with John, you know.

And John, of course, is now the actor I've probably worked with the most.

He's, you know, an incredibly close friend.

And I think that people who see this season of Peacemaker are going to be freaked out.

by how good he is

because he's gotten so much better.

He is incredible in this season.

But with him, there was a moment in the suicide squad where he has his gun pointed at Daniela Melchior's character, Ratcatcher 2, and she's kind of crying.

And he's going to kill her.

And you know, he doesn't want to, but it's this weird commitment to keeping the peace that's going to make him shoot a young girl.

And I go into this close-up on his eyes, and you can just see

everything working there behind his eyes.

And that's not something everyone can do, even good actors.

I can name some famous good actors who I don't think can do that.

And John, it was there with John.

And I saw that was sort of the seed of the Peacemaker series.

You know, that was where I saw there was something in this guy that I could help bring out.

And actually, John Cena and Chris Pratt are very similar in some ways, and that they're both guys who are performers, who are entertainers, and we're always entertaining.

And the main thing to get to with both of those guys was allowing them to what I call stop juggling, stop tap dancing, just be, because there's something about you're a movie star,

and there's a unique, unusual likability and vulnerability to you in the moment.

And you don't need to prove to other people

that you're likable.

So if you can stop proving,

you're in the arena.

And so it's really like sculpture.

It's not teaching.

It's just getting rid of habits.

And

then working with John over, especially over Peacemaker season one, where he got to this new level.

And then he took all of that stuff and has been acting for the past two years non-stop refining that stuff and getting better with it and then by the time we came to the first episode of this season of peacemaker which you've seen and he has the moment where you know he's with his

kind dad in the alternate world

and he says you know goodbye to him and he walks out and i'm like john i think you break down crying here and john had a really hard time in the first season with a crying scene which was a much more comedic crying scene.

So it was kind of, it was harder in some ways, but not, but I'm in this close-up on John.

And I just see, you know, he's like, okay, and his dad walks out and you just see him bring his hand to his face and tears spill down his eyes.

And then he breaks down and sobs.

And I'm like, holy cow.

That's not usual for a wrestler or for any actor, you know, frankly, especially male actors.

And so it was like, it was so different.

He was so in touch with the rawness of his emotions.

And it is a much different season because of where I think both John and I are at emotionally, because of the character and how he's changed from the first season.

And because, you know, John as an actor is just so much more able to do his thing.

There isn't, you know, this isn't about the blustery peacemaker who's pushing everyone away by saying things that are politically incorrect.

This is about a guy who's totally messed up and aware he's messed up and trying trying to find a little bit of joy in the universe and not really having an easy time at doing it.

Did it almost, when he showed up to film season two, or is it like he came from almost like a, I always think of like a training sequence, you know, like

whether it's a sports movie or a superhero movie or whatever.

He's been really working on his craft and he kind of almost showed up like, is that kind of almost how it came from?

He showed up ready to go.

Well, he's always totally prepared.

I mean, that's just like another level.

Yeah, all these guys,

this crew is always totally prepared.

They come in, they know the scripts backwards and forwards, and they're, you know, just really, it is a real family set.

It's such a family, you know, I mean, Daniel Brooks and Freddie Stroma, who plays Vigilante, they live next, near me in Atlanta.

Like,

oh, yeah, that's, you know, they're part of my friend's circle.

So it's, it's, it is, it's really close.

And John lives nearby in Florida.

And, and, yeah, it's just a really close group of people.

Steve Agie, who plays Jonican Emos, has been my friend for 17 years, I think.

So it's an unusual group of people.

You mentioned your psychology degree.

Has there been anything, I mean, and you've also written a ton of characters.

Have you done anything specific to get like in the mind of a specific character that would only work for that character?

I mean, I read a lot.

You know, I do, I do a lot of research.

If I'm, you know, writing someone who's a journalist like Lois Lane, I really do go and learn what what it's like to be a journalist.

I wanted, you know, I didn't want, you know, a lot of times in some of these shows, it doesn't, Lois Lane doesn't necessarily seem like a real journalist.

She seems like it's, that's her job and that's what's hung on her, but she's not really, but I wanted her to be a real journalist.

And so, you know, you have to learn a little bit about that.

And Rachel did the same thing.

She went out and talked to journalists and learned about what it was like to have that career, you know.

But in terms of, I don't think I ever do anything I can think of to get into the mind of a character but i do i just read a lot you know so i read you know when there's books on writing that come out i still keep up and try to learn new things that i don't know i'm just always trying to learn you know always trying to get better you know is it hard for you to separate your personal life from the the life of creating characters or i mean you don't like you mix a lot of your personal life into your work which you know yeah like because of my friends and things well like i mean the dog crypto oh yeah crypto man you know like yeah right your dad and you know i feel like yeah i mean this is where if jen was here she'd be shaking her head over there um but it's like i don't you know i work a lot you know i really don't i don't have much of a personal life you know yeah i don't and um i you know i try to but especially the past few years have been non-stop work you know i wrote the season of peacemaker in eight weeks

um because i had to get it done before i started shooting superman and

it was like hellish.

I was like, just grind, grind, grind, grind.

Do you need the push or would you have been like, I would like maybe a little bit longer or was it a little nice motivation

in that sense?

Yeah, I don't, I think I work well under pressure and not under pressure because when I'm writing, I'm just in that space.

But yeah, I think there was something about the grind that was good because it was, it put me in a place where I just had to do it.

And, uh, and so maybe there was new things that came out because of that, because I'm really, you know, in every, every episode, I was like, oh, I got that episode done, but now I have to go do the next episode.

Oh, my God, this one's, I don't feel inspired at all.

I think it's going to be terrible.

You know, there, I'm in Florida or in Hawaii with all my friends and I'm at the hotel writing.

And I'm like,

it's going to be terrible.

And I write, write, write.

And I'm like, oh,

I like that episode.

That one's pretty good.

I like that.

That's pretty good.

Oh, but the next one's going to suck.

You know, and I have to go in there and go.

I'm like, ah,

are are you writing in your head constantly?

Because I feel like I'm just always in my head.

I'll be outside and pacing.

And now I'd be like, who are you talking to right now?

And I'm like thinking about like my next episode.

Yeah, yeah,

that's kind of something I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's, it's, I, and especially when I'm in the act of writing, I get what I think of as writer's brain, which, you know, like right now, I, I, I, I've taken a break while I've come here to New York with my friends, but I just finished the treatment for the next, you know, piece of the Superman saga.

And so, and the treatment for me means that it's, you know, it's 70 pages of like writing with every single, that's the hard part of writing for me is the treatment.

Yeah.

The screenplay is fun.

But when I'm in that, the space of writing,

you know, my dreams are different.

I'm waking up.

I'm, you know, sometimes I'm waking up and it's really great thoughts and inspired and I'm writing stuff on my phone, but it keeps me up all night.

And other times it's just almost like a frustrating, like not trying to break something that's not quite working in the script and figure it out from a logical perspective and trying and being stuck in that, you know, sprocket.

But it's, it's, it really is, I can't sleep like a normal person when I'm in the act of writing.

Directing, I'm actually, I've, I used to be just the same way, but I'm better now.

It's a little bit more like a job that I go to.

So go home, go to sleep, wake up, go to work again.

When I watch these films that you make, I'm always in awe of things that people do that I don't think I have the capability to do.

And so you're not only just writing these films, but you're writing universes in a way.

Do you start from like 30,000-foot view of like the universe you're creating?

Or do you start with like the character and build the universe around them?

Does that, does that make sense?

Well, I think, I think, I think character is always the most important part for me, but I am popping back and forth.

Okay.

You know, so I am like thinking, well, what is the long-term story I'm telling here?

What is the story that I'm going to tell about Superman over four movies?

What is the story I'm telling about Peacemaker over, you know,

a number of different media?

You know, what is it?

What is it that's the long-term story for these characters?

And how does that intertwine with the stories of other characters, whether it's Harcourt or Eagley or, you know, Batman who we haven't even met yet?

You know, so what is the big story we're telling here?

What's the big purpose here?

So that is always a part of something.

Like the perfect, the example that's paid off is Rocket and Guardians, right?

I always knew what the ending of the story was.

I always knew it was about Rocket accepting himself as a raccoon and coming to realize that he had empathy for every living creature as opposed to just the people around him and himself.

It was about going from being a completely selfish, self-involved.

creature to a hero and

what was that story and in a way it's a trilogy of incredibly expensive movies that are just answering the question, why is he called Rocket Raccoon?

And so I always knew that that was the center of the story for me.

And so everything was always kind of

around that.

I always knew for me, it was Rocket was always a protagonist.

Star-Lord was, you know, important, but he was always there mostly to serve Rocket story.

The same thing with all the other characters.

So fascinating.

So it was, it was always that, that was the, that was the center of the story for me.

But I also always knew Star-Lord was going to go home.

You know, that Star-Lord,

in a way, you know, in what was his story, his story was a story in which we were telling he ran away from home.

His mother died.

If you look at it as, you know, you know, symbolic or, you know, allegorical.

Star-Lord's mother died.

He left this planet and went out to outer space where he was not really present.

And over the journey of three films, came back home to Earth where his grandfather was.

So it really is about, you know, and his story is about a guy who is leaving, left himself when he was young because of the trauma of his youth and came to little by little accept that that trauma.

You know, same thing, you know, Nebula, same thing.

They all have their own stories, you know.

I, you know, don't feel like I'm the biggest comic book fan.

And I have to say, Peacemaker is so good.

It's so entertaining.

I mean, Jennifer, your wife, is a complete badass.

Yeah.

When you're writing for her, are you wanting to kind of, are you writing to like push her out of her comfort zone and challenge her as an actor?

Yeah.

You are.

Yeah, but I also, I'm knowing what she, I know what she's capable of.

Like, you know, Jen wouldn't work with me for like three movies.

You know, I offered her a role in,

you know, in Guardians 2, then I offered another role.

And then in Suicide Squad, there was this character, tech number two,

who eventually became Amelia Harcourt.

And I'm like, just come and do this character with me.

We had been together by five years or whatever at that time.

So I was like, just come and do this character with me and, you know, we'll play it.

We'll have fun on set.

And I knew pretty much what she was capable of because I had, you know, done auditions with her and I'd read and stuff like that, but I didn't see her.

You know, I saw her act.

She was on a TV show.

Before you got together?

Well, no, when we were together, I was, you know, I would read with her when she was auditioning for other roles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also when we, you know, she was on a TV show called Sun Records right after we started dating, but it was like not a heavy acting TV show.

And so she was a regular on that.

But so I knew she could act, but

we just really worked well together and we had fun doing it.

And so then when I started doing Peacemaker, I'm like, I think this is, you know, bringing one of the,

you know, because everything is still like putting on a play with my friends, you know, and, and the fact that I was going to be able to do this TV show and then I could have Steve Agee, one of my best friends and Jen along with me and John, that was like, oh, this is going to be fun now.

We're going to have, this is going to be fun.

And it has been.

And then seeing these characters that I fall in love with that are not my friends, but are people who I love and then finding like, you know, it is kind of pushing them into new territory like in season one when Steve AG who's basically a comic has to break down crying when he's talking about his why he dies his beard um

it's it's like that was pushing Steve like he had never done that before and it was so interesting because when we were shooting it once the faucets came on they couldn't go he couldn't turn him off he was like it was really

like just keep rolling keep rolling yeah i rolled and i rolled you know and it was like it was intense But with Jen, she's more of a trained actor who's been trained for a long time.

And so I know what she's capable of.

And, you know, my favorite, one of my favorite scenes I've ever, ever directed or written is in episode six, which is a very long scene between.

Jen and John.

And it's the best acting, I think, of both of their careers.

And I cannot wait for people to see that.

That's amazing.

And when you guys are hanging out together, being husband and wife, like, is like, I love love working with my wife.

Like, there is a level, like, I didn't plan on it.

We got together after I had this show.

I was like, oh my God, you're funny.

And I never imagined I would meet someone whose opinion, and like, Nally's younger than me.

And I was just like, you know, people had all these various opinions.

But then the more I got to, like, spend time with Natalie and my wife, I just, I was almost surprised how much I valued her take on things.

Yeah.

She.

You know, I always felt like Nally knew what my strengths were and never tried to like make me confused about what I was confident in.

But the things that I knew that she was really good at, we got this kind of like shorthand of how we communicated.

But I feel like with work now, she's always that first person I go to when I'm unsure about something or I want to run an idea about her.

I just really trust her taste.

And I always felt like working together, maybe some couples can't do it as much, but for us, it really helps us stay connected in a sense.

And so much about a relationship is making sure like we're being connected.

Do you, I'm assuming you enjoy it as much as I do working with your wife, offering her these roles, but like, is that ever a challenge?

I, in sometimes, it's a challenge

because, of course, you know, your wife has

your wife has a shorthand with you when she speaks to you in a way in which I'm not accustomed to be spoken to on set.

And I'm like, wait a second.

You know,

Sylvis Tallone doesn't talk to me like that.

You know, so,

but, but, yeah, no, I mean, I really enjoy seeing talented people

get to shine, you know, whether it's, you know, Foxy Shazam, who did the theme song for the new season and, you know, using their music.

I mean, they're one of my favorite bands in the world and all the different bands we use in Peacemaker or Steve Agee or Jen or my brother Sean.

I mean, you know, getting to allow people to see people's talent is so fun to me.

And Jen is really helpful.

I mean, she's especially helpful at the writing stage.

She's really, really, really good script reader and

harsh.

But I don't, but harsh in a good way.

Not like, I don't, I'm not very

offended by it.

You're like, oh, wow, that was.

I'm not very sensitive about

script notes.

You know, I mean, I think I was when I was young.

Like I had a girlfriend that would read my stories and, you know, be really harsh with me.

And I'm like,

get in a big fight.

Give me that fact.

You know, it's different when you're 22.

And, you know, it's like, and also I was like, you know, more, not as confident, I guess.

I mean, mean, now it really, there is a part of filmmaking, which is like, it is purely logical.

It's purely, there's a part of it that's artistic and emotional, and you're following the muse.

And then there's another part of it that is logical.

You're fixing problems.

You're trying to, you're creating a machine that needs to work in the right way for an audience.

And the balance between those two things is what's important to me.

It's neither one or the other.

You know, you can't say, oh, it's just all artistry when you're making a, you know, $200 million movie.

But you also, I see what happens when you see guys who become bean counters when they're making a movie and those movies are soulless.

You know, and I think there's very few people that are making big movies that are doing it with passion.

And that's important to me.

You know, that's why I love Matt Reeves and Greta Gerwig and Ryan Koogler and, you know,

all these, you know,

Denis and a few other people I think are really fantastic spectacle film directors.

And Peacemaker 2, a big

theme is these different dimensions through these portals.

And something for me, I've always, I've always been fast.

I'm not that much of a religious person.

I don't believe everything happens for a reason.

I believe our choices matter and I believe in free will.

And when I'm watching the first few episodes of Peacemaker,

when Peacemaker goes through these different portals and he sees these alternate universes, and not, I don't want to give anything away, but it shows how like, if people made different choices, different outcomes could that's right.

Yes, I love, um, and I love that deeper meaning because I can, internally, it makes me go down rabbit holes in terms of like, you know, I always tell like my, you know, my team, your choices matter, you know, like

you, you might can, you can recover for them.

You can learn from them if you're willing to, but like, our choices make a difference.

It's like, what was your inspiration for the, like coming up with this dimension kind of storyline?

Is that something that I've always loved the same thing?

And it's one of the funny things because people are like, oh, it's another multiverse story, but it's not to me.

I love Deadpool and Deadpool versus Wolverine is hilarious to me.

And that's like a bunch of crazy Deadpools from all over the place.

And you're seeing all these different things.

This is a really contemplative

story.

about one guy and the things that he's lost that he's never had.

And that's what interested me, you know, with this story.

You know, I'm not giving away anything, but it's, it's, it's about, you know, he has an alternate father in another planet and he's everything he wished his own father was.

He's loving, he's kind, and just

the moment of meeting him and being with him, he realizes what he's never had in his life, you know.

And yet, you know, we all don't have things.

And so Adebayo has a very different opinion about what he's doing than

he does.

And as the season goes on, we see more and more, you know, permute, you know, the ways that world has differed from our own world.

And seems to him like it's everything that he wanted this world always to be.

But is it really?

You know, are there things when you're writing that idea, there are things about your life where you wonder, are there like pivotal moments when you look back in your life?

All the time.

All the time.

Like, listen, I loved playing music.

Like, I played in bands.

That's what I did when I was young.

That's what I wanted to do.

And

I wasn't the greatest singer in the world.

And I wanted to be the best at what I did.

And so

I started, you know, around, it was around that time I really started writing.

And then it just, that took off in a way.

Like, it didn't seem like.

When I was playing in bands, it was such a grind and not a grind like working, like I'm talking about writing screenplays, but a grind.

Like I'm trying to force

success where there wasn't any.

I totally read it now.

And I started writing and then everything just sort of was like a slingshot.

Like all of a sudden I'm in this channel that everybody loved what I did.

And it was crazy to me how, you know, how it happened.

And I found this thing I was really good at.

And I still to this day don't believe in telling people to follow your dreams.

I think find what you're good at and do that because you're going to be happy having a purposeful life where you're doing what you're good at.

Like that's what's really important.

A dream is just that.

It's a dream.

I don't, you know, it's like maybe you're good at that.

But however, my brother, you know, Sean would totally disagree with that.

He wanted to be an actor since the time he was young and he's just acted, you know, I think my wife just always wanted to be.

So they've just stayed on that track.

But for me, I really was always looking for what I was best at.

And

that's when writing became direct.

I mean, I had already direct, you know, I had played around with directing a lot.

So it wasn't like I was a neophyte with that, but like I, it became directing, became storytelling, became, you know, doing DC.

So.

But yeah, do I think back sometimes, what if I kept playing music?

I probably would have had, you know, I was a good songwriter.

I was a good performer.

You know, I've now had, you know, we've had, I've had hits and stuff that I've written with other people, but it's,

but but it's not the same thing as playing in bands.

And I loved it.

Yeah, I'm sure you would have been good.

I think you're a very talented person.

You have a great work ethic.

But to your point, good playing music might not be the head of DC Studios.

Or you've reached a certain level.

I was making a living, but

I just wasn't the greatest.

But what is your go-to karaoke song?

I have a couple of them, but if there's Generation Landslide by Alice Cooper, that's my go-to.

Do you come up up with most of your music for all your shows?

Because that's always been one of my favorite parts.

Maybe it's because...

Oh, you mean the song choices?

Oh, yeah, 100%.

There's never been anyone who's made any choice.

Any song in any movie other than me.

Your movies remind me of my child.

They remind me of Saturday mornings

with my dad because I'd wake up and he'd be blasting the police and like, yeah, just all these different types of the REO speed wagon things like that.

Saturday mornings.

And so listening to this type of music that I always seem to find in your work.

And I find it very nostalgic.

I love it.

Yeah.

I mean, I like what I like doing is every project has its own vibe, you know.

And so, yes, 70s AM pop, that was the vibe of the first Guardians.

And then that kind of evolved as we went on, you know, into more 90s space rock for the third one.

And with, you know, it's, it's kind of the hair metal, you know, for lack of a better term, sleaze metals, glam metal for Peacemaker, you know, for Creature Commandos, it was all what's called gypsy rock.

And so I like having everything kind of has its own vibe, but I'm, I'm still incredibly obsessive about music, constantly listening to and collecting music.

Are you thinking of the songs while you're writing?

Are you done with the script?

They're all written into the scripts.

So every song in Peacemaker was written into the script.

And when people get the scripts, when the cast gets the scripts, they get a playlist on Spotify that's private.

That is all the songs that they can listen to the songs.

You've got to be so good at just compartmentalizing.

Like your brain must have so many different files and it seems like there's just so much organization up there.

Yeah,

I am pretty organized, I think.

I mean, at least in that respect.

But I've told somebody last night, I can't remember what we were talking about, but I'm really, I never ever procrastinate with work.

But I'm anything to do with my actual life, I'm terrible.

It took me, I decided to propose to my wife and it took me

four years to actually do it.

You know, it was like, you know, it was really peak for crossing.

It was, yeah, yeah.

But like, I, I decided that I was going to ask Jen to marry me.

And Chris Pratt called me up and he said, dude, I want to tell you something I haven't told anybody.

I'm going to ask Catherine to marry me, Catherine Schwarzenegger.

I said, dude, it's funny you say that because I've just come to an awareness and I'm in the same place and I'm going to ask Jen to marry me.

We'd already been together for a while, too.

And it's three years later we're on the set of we're on the set of guardians three

and chris is married with a child

and he's like dude what is going on and i'm like

dude i don't know yeah i just the thing i this thing came you know a movie covid

like i i

don't know and he's like i'm gonna you know go you know get you a ring

this is true this is totally true and he said i'm gonna to go.

He wasn't going to pay for the ring.

Believe me, he's not that good of a friend.

And so he and Catherine went out to their ring person and their diamond person.

And they're like, you know, FaceTiming me.

And they're like, is this the right kind of ring?

Is this?

And then Catherine is like putting the diamond in front of her finger, but holding her hand a little far away from the camera so that the diamond looks because her hand is bigger than Jen's and Jen's petite.

And so,

and then they got me the ring.

So how did you propose after four years of thinking about it?

I mean, this is, this is, do you want to hear the story

because it's, it's a little weird.

So it's, so, uh,

so Jen and I, I told this story last night.

So Jen and I are a weird couple.

We dated for four months, never once talked about our relationship.

And in four months, all of a sudden one day I was like.

I think I'm in love with you.

We never talked about, were we dating other people?

Were we not dating other people?

What's going on?

At At first, we both were, and then we kind of just stopped because we were talking all the time.

And then all of a sudden, we were boyfriend, girlfriend.

And then another whatever seven years goes by, and we never once discussed marriage.

Never once.

She never said anything to me about marriage.

And so all that stuff that I just told you about happened.

I went and I got a ring.

And it was actually, it was Christmas Eve, I think.

I was at my sister's house making cookies with Jen and my mom.

and Chris is FaceTiming me with these diamonds and I go into the other room with

Beth, my sister, and I'm like, Beth,

I show her the ring.

I said, is this good?

She's like, that's beautiful.

So I'm like, okay, I'm going to get that ring.

I'm going to ask her to marry me.

It's great.

And it's going to take like two months to get the ring made or whatever.

I go home that night.

We're sitting out on...

We were in a rental house in L.A.

We're sitting on the porch in Sunset Hill, you know, looking out at the beautiful skyline.

It's beautiful.

I love my wife.

We're getting ready to go out to my brothers for New Year's Eve.

And she comes over and she sits down beside me and she holds my hand and she says, James, I want to tell you something.

And I said, what?

And she goes, I would like to marry you someday.

And I'm like, and inside my head, I'm going, God

damn it.

What are you doing to me right now?

This is the worst possible time you could, you're going to ruin the surprise.

Like, this is terrible.

And, and, but from her point of view, I was like, uh,

oh, yeah.

She walked away being like, fuck.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then she just like looks at me.

She's like, what in the world is going on?

And she went to the bathroom and started sobbing.

No.

I text my sister.

I say, Beth, what should I do?

Should I do?

Should I tell her?

You know,

I've got the ring.

And Beth is like, I think you need to tell her.

I don't know what to, I think you should tell her.

And I'm like, okay, I'll tell her.

So she comes out and she's all wiping the tears away.

And I go,

I go, Jen, I think it's really important that

I tell you something.

And I need to.

And then I got another ding on my phone.

I go, ding.

I look down and it's my sister saying Alec, my brother-in-law.

Alec says, absolutely, under no circumstances circumstances should you tell her and ruin the surprise.

I'm totally, this is how little, how little, like, look how, look how, look how

I control a whole studio, but like, I have no control over my own life.

I just, I make no choices for myself.

My sister and my brother-in-law are making all of them.

And so I say, and then I'm like, uh,

you know, everything's cool.

Everything's cool, Jen.

Don't worry about it.

Everything is cool.

And she's like, okay.

You know, we drive, we're going like, she's like

trying not to cry the whole time.

We're driving over to my brother's house.

We go in, we sit down at the table with my mom and my mom goes, Jimmy, she called me Jimmy, Jimmy, when are you going to marry Jen?

And I'm like, oh my God,

what the hell is God doing to me right now?

Anyway, so two years later, we had a house in Aspen.

We're walking into it for the first time since we bought it.

And I got on my knee.

And that's amazing.

And two months, not two years, sorry, two months, two months after.

Wow.

So for those two months, was she like...

I think she kind of got over it.

There was like a bad week.

There was a bad week, and then she forgot.

It almost sounds like an amazing, like a, I want to see that you write that into a scene someday.

Yeah, somehow.

I just feel like an epic proposal.

It sounds too perfect where you're getting all these texts from friends and you're not sure what to do.

She's, she was just, when I did propose, she just broke down crying and was like.

She's just cursing me out.

You asshole, you asshole.

I thought you didn't want to marry me.

I thought you didn't want to marry me.

I'm like, I have a funny story.

You always have a good poker face to be like, ah.

I didn't really.

It was almost the opposite, Kate.

It was.

It was the opposite.

I mean, I think if I had a good poker face, I could have come up with a

good, like, explaining.

Like, if I had said, oh my God, that means so much to me, Jen.

Or if I had said,

if I had said, you know what, I'd like to marry you someday too.

Like, when wouldn't you even thought of

everything would have been fine.

When the time was fine, but instead I'm like, ah,

yeah, yeah.

I made her feel all weird.

What makes your relationship work so well with Jen?

Who said it works so well?

It looks like it works so well.

I'm kidding.

I don't know.

She's just a really good partner.

I think the thing that I didn't realize about marriage

is that you have a partner.

Yeah.

And it is romance and sex and love and all of those things need to work.

Friendship, conversation.

You have a conversation, partner for life, right?

So those things are all really important.

But it's also important to, I think in the past, past, a lot of times I took in broken birds, you know, and so I was kind of taking care of everything in a relationship.

And if anything, this relationship is the opposite.

Like Jen, you know, I make most of the money.

She makes a lot of money, actually, but I make most of the money, but she takes, she takes care.

I mean, so much of our life is run by Jen.

Yeah.

And having

life is easier because we're in a relationship together.

And I have to say, most other relationships I was in, I was doing twice as much, I was doing work for two people, you know, emotionally, in every way, you know?

And it's just not like that with Jen.

She's my totally, fully equal partner.

I love that you say that because I feel like a lot of times now today, people use the word partner because they don't want to say the wrong thing or anything.

But like to your point, having a real partner, I love what you said.

I feel that same way about Natalie.

I said to her last night at dinner, I'm like, I just love that you're, you're always willing to face whatever challenges come our way, you know?

Yeah.

When I'm like, we don't sit there and, and like, well, you do this or I have to do that.

Like you said with work, you know, we work together, but I'm doing most of the day-to-day decision-making and things like that.

But we're just a team, you know, we tackle whatever we have to face together.

We, you know, we just divide and conquer.

Yeah.

And feeling like you actually have that partner makes you feel just less alone.

Like you less alone.

I've felt alone in relationships.

But also makes life easier.

Yeah.

I mean, life is actually easier.

Like, I don't have to deal with all my house stuff because Jen deals with it.

So, you know, it's like there is, I don't have to deal with everything.

I don't have to deal with all, you know, the stuff with the pets.

You know, she takes care of most of the pet stuff, not all, but most of it.

Except for the time

Ozu tears up all my stuff.

No.

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Obviously, with comic books, there is

an intense fan base.

And, you know,

I always say, I remind myself that fans short for fanatic.

Is that true?

When it comes to like, you know, reality TV has its intense fan base.

I think comic book is even more intense.

People truly fall in love with it.

Yeah, because in a way, you know, certain people almost.

It's almost like their religion.

Yeah.

For me, I try to completely disconnect.

I'll tell my team, don't read stuff.

It handcuffs you creatively, things like that.

But you always do have to strike some kind of balance because it is important to understand how your work.

So, how do you balance that relationship with fans?

Because there are some very personal feelings about characters and cast members and actors and things like that.

So, how do you address that?

I mean, first of all,

my heart is pure.

You know what I mean?

I am trying to do the best I can for these DC characters that I love.

I will always make mistakes.

Like, that's just a part of being a human being.

So I'm always doing my best.

But, you know, when you ask me, like, what, how do you know that you're dealing with Superman in the right way?

It's like, because I'm a Superman fan.

I've grown up reading his comic books.

I love his comics.

Not everyone agrees on what are the most important attributes of Superman.

But I basically think that I know who the character is and what is most important to the character, looking at his entire history.

And so that's that's all you can do, really.

It's it's like if I was a guy who had never read a comic book and was doing a Superman movie, I think it would be a different story.

You know, I don't read One Piece.

You know, if I went out and did, you know, the One Piece show, I think it would be hard for me because I don't understand, you know, what is, you know, the most beloved things about One Piece.

You know, I've only read a couple of, you know, comics.

So

it's, but with DC characters, I understand them.

Now I also do change, you know, somebody like Peacemaker, I also realize I can change a lot about who he is.

I changed who his father was.

I changed certain things.

And then also some things I kept the same.

The Guardians, I changed a lot of things.

And so I do feel more freedom with characters that are less well-known, you know.

But I really just have to go off my gut.

I can't do much more than that.

But But I listen to people.

I listen to...

Go read some comics with Jonathan.

She does like a DC comics.

You know, she goes through old DC comics and how they relate to, you know, Easter eggs and the show and all this stuff.

And I watch her videos because she's a real fan.

And sometimes she teaches me things.

that I don't know about DC characters.

I'm like, well, I better be careful about that thing, you know?

And so, because I don't know every DC character fully, I really know Batman.

I really know Superman.

I really know, you know, Teen Titans.

When you're taking on these projects like Superman, obviously there's been so many before.

How much are you like doing your own research and bringing what's already been out there versus bringing your own life into it?

Well, I think for me, really the fun thing with doing Superman was about creating the version that I loved from the comics.

And so, you know, people always asked me with Guardians, what were the most influential comics?

And I would be like,

well, you know, these, the Abnett Lanning and this and that.

But really,

it was much more the things that were the most influential on the Guardians were other movies, were space fantasy films and, you know,

Forbidden Planet and Star Wars and these other things.

With Superman, it's not that.

People ask me, what movies are you, you know, most influenced by?

And I'm like, not, it's not really movies.

It's really trying to create a live-action comic book.

It's, it's all-star Superman.

It's Superman for All Seasons.

It's all of these

comics that I'm trying to bring to life

in a film in a way that hasn't really been done before to create a true comic book movie.

Whereas I feel like in The Guardians, I almost was running from a comic book movie.

Like for some reason, I'm not even sure I really loved being called a comic book movie, even though that's stupid because it is a comic book movie.

But with this, I really wanted to create a true comic book movie.

Is it true that you saw David in the pearl and thought he'd be a great superman oh totally yeah i saw yeah yeah yeah i saw i saw david in pearl and i was like it wasn't i thought he would be a great superman but he was on my radar and um and i thought oh that guy could be superman it seems like a good actor i didn't have high hopes frankly because he's very serious in pearl and our superman is is light on his feet he's he's got a good sense of humor he's a funny guy and he's quirky yeah he's quirky and um and so but when he as soon as he auditioned i was like oh my god he's so he's funny.

He's charming.

It's like, I couldn't believe it.

I was, I was really, really shocked.

He had to have been, his whole life, been told he looked like Clark Kent, you know?

Like, he, he, when he got older, people started telling him, you know, he was like Superman.

He almost looked more like Clark Kent than Superman.

Yeah, yeah.

He did because he's a lot skinnier than two.

Yeah.

It was interesting hearing you talk about you didn't want Guardians to be like a comic book movie, but it's like when I was watching Superman, it's just like, I think from the opening credits i can be like this is a this is a james gunn movie i just something about the way you shoot it but i think what i love most about it again i don't know if it's intentional because i just feel like you don't again you don't have to be a comic book fan to love your movies because i do feel like it connects with people it's a drama it's you know it's it's a it can be a family show depending on you know peacemaker yeah for adults only but i guess my question is was it intentional as someone who like you know as a decision maker you do have to worry about the bottom line You do have to worry about,

you know, not just

attracting, you know, not just appealing to the die-hard fans.

So when you're writing it, are you hoping to have a project that you don't have to know the comic books?

And you can like, you know, for me, like I'm, I've always been in these types of movies.

I want to be able to bring my wife and say, you're going to enjoy this and you're going to have fun.

And

that's what I love about your movies is I feel like anytime I recommend it, I don't have to be like, no, you have to watch.

Yeah, no.

You have to be a big boy.

I'm trying to be real careful about that with telling stories that are relatable by anyone.

And I've had so many like grandmas coming up and tell me how much they like Superman.

They don't like, they didn't even like the original Superman, but they like, they like, they love, you know, the...

the relationships.

They love the people.

They love the message of kindness in the movie.

That's the thing that speaks to so many people.

That's been really cool.

And likewise, I'm also trying to be really careful of this is a connected universe with stories that lead to each other, but also every single story needs to be

understood by just watching it.

I don't want it to feel like homework.

That's the thing because I feel like Marvel has, I feel like they've struggled with that.

I mean, I think they've struggled with people feeling like that, whether that's actually the reality or not.

You know, but I, I, you know, I want people to, they should be able to see Superman and then go see Superman and be okay.

I did, you know, listen, Superman comes out on video, on home video today.

Yep.

And the reason I let it come out early, because it wasn't going to come out till later, is because

of Peacemaker, because I wanted to give Peacemaker the best chance it could possibly have.

I think also people are starting to see how the hype around Peacemaker.

So I think everybody's starting to get it at Warner Brothers Discovery.

So it's about really allowing, giving Peacemaker the best step forward.

But you don't need to have seen Superman to watch Peacemaker.

We explain it all for you.

It's all there.

It's not.

There's background and it connects and you're going to have more fun if you watch Superman because there's characters from Superman that are in Peacemaker and it's the stories are connected.

And then that story is connected to the next Superman.

So they're, they're all, you know, connected, but it's, um, but I, I am really aware of making things okay by themselves.

Yeah, like you said, it, you definitely don't have to watch it to get it, but if you do, you feel like you're.

You're in on it.

You know, you feel like like you get it.

You're like, oh, that's an extra joke.

That's like it's great.

It's gravy.

Yeah.

yeah it's good callbacks yeah it's fun callbacks yeah uh recently the internet it's gone viral a moment when you guys were shooting superman a conversation oh that's the craziest thing yeah

yeah that's the craziest thing that was seriously one of my favorite moments ever directing a movie and i walked off and you know i got

David and I both got teary-eyed and David wrote me that night.

And then the next day, I said, that was really amazing.

I'm like, I knew that we were, we were shooting with our actual cameras at the time.

I'm like, can we get the tape of like that conversation between me and David?

Because there's the part that isn't viral is that before that moment, there was a whole, I talk in what we call a God mic, and I'm speaking to this God mic, and then it's on stage and everybody's listening.

And it's like, when you're on my movies, you have to get used to like, there's no secrets, right?

Like, if I'm giving you direction, everybody's going to watch it.

So, so David is out there.

So, David and I are sort of having this, you know, argument that is, you know, a healthy argument, but he's saying what his feelings are, yelling up at the sky like he's actually talking to God.

And then I'm saying, no, no, no, because of this and this and this.

And then he finally walked out.

And the part when he finally walked out is the part that went viral.

But I said to Michael, who's sitting over there, I said, do we have the tapes?

Because we were shooting when he started arguing with me.

He had stopped himself.

in the middle of the speech and said, he's like, this doesn't feel right.

And I'm like, do we have the tapes?

And he goes, not only do we have the tapes, Jeremy, who's been my videographer since Guardians 1, filmed the entire thing.

And I was like,

what?

And I'm like, this incredibly intimate, special moment was all on film.

And I couldn't believe it.

I had no idea that Jeremy was there until the next day.

And so that's the moment that was captured.

I don't know what the question was around that.

Well, now that you answer that, now I have more questions.

But why did it mean so much to you to want to put that out there?

Because I'm watching it and that's a vulnerable moment.

I didn't put it out there.

They made a mistake.

Oh, okay.

But anyway,

whatever the case.

No, I knew it was in the documentary.

I watched the documentary and that's out and people can watch it as part of the,

you know, the home video offerings.

But what was important to me about it was I learned something.

So sometimes David would be frustrating to me because he has so many questions and he's really stubborn.

And

I love, I love him to death, but he just is always asking questions.

Whereas I am used to Chris Pratt and John Cena as my leads who are like, jump off the bridge, you know,

never question anything.

And so that is probably an unfair expectation of actors on my part, but that's what it's been like, you know, even like Sylvester and Stallone and stuff.

Like they're, they're, they're always like, so it's, they always just kind of go with the flow.

They're down.

And, um, and, and David is not like that.

He's a million questions.

So is Rachel, frankly.

They both have a bunch of questions.

Rachel's much easier than David.

Um, but in that moment, David's asking those questions.

So what happened was before that, there's this big speech at the end of the movie that David needs to give.

And I'm like, if this speech doesn't work, the movie doesn't work.

It's the end of the third act.

It's like he's explaining who he is and what the importance of Superman is.

I'm like, if it doesn't work, the movie's not going to work.

And so

he comes out and he does the performance.

And I'm like, oh, thank God.

He did a great job.

He had it totally down.

It was really impassioned.

It was really good, but it was quiet.

He delivered it quietly.

And I said,

David,

do it again, but just do it more, you know, passionately and louder.

And he said, okay.

And he did it again.

And he did it the way I wanted.

And I'm like, that was better than the way he did it.

The other thing, by the way, is that not only did he have to give this speech, it was a complicated shot because we pull back with Superman as he's saying the speech.

And then I swing over to Lex and Nick needs to give a speech.

And then we curl around Nick

as he comes around and then Nick gets hit.

And he has to, at the exact right time with the camera, move and jerk.

this is like a one shot so it's one shot and they all so he had to do the speech perfectly nick had nick the unsung hero is who delivered his speech perfectly every time i don't even talk about nick so he's incredible he's the best i mean so you know and also he had to do this timing thing so the camera operator henry and tim had to do this the same thing at the same time it was really hard and so we did it again

and it was good but the timing wasn't exactly right and so i said do it again like that and david said okay And then he started delivering it.

And that's when he stopped.

And he's like, James, but I don't feel it because I had this conversation with my dad.

And I didn't, you know, don't I,

aren't I healed now?

Aren't I okay?

And then basically, that's when the conversation happened, the gist of which was, yes, logically, you know that you're okay.

Logically, you know that you're not a piece of crap like Lex Luther says you are.

But it doesn't mean you don't feel it.

You're still feeling it.

You still feel hurt by that.

And so your feelings are still there.

So just because you know logically one thing doesn't mean you're healed and doesn't mean, and also that's okay because you are human and that's what we are.

We're going to have our feelings hurt.

It's not a weakness to have your feelings hurt.

It's just having your feelings hurt.

You know, it's not a weakness to be afraid.

I just love that part of the movie just because I was thinking about it.

And we were just like, when was the last time I saw a superhero say, my feelings are are hurt yeah or just acknowledge it you just yeah that's just not even in like

the comic book lexicon so to speak and i just love that the way it humanizes the characters i just i don't know maybe that's just why i've always connected with with yeah movies and work but thanks i mean i think i think that's true i love that about him and i love you know the compassion towards lex saying i know you're something special lex you know The thing I really hope is that someday you see that you being human.

Lex is is a superhero.

He's smart enough that he's probably a meta-human in some ways, right?

So he's like, he wants Lex to be good still.

And that's what the, that's the point of that last shot where Lex is just roiling and so angry and hurt.

And he looks up at Superman and you know Lex isn't done in that moment.

And then

this is all spoiler stuff, I guess.

And then Lex, and then Superman looks back and he feels sorry for Lex because he's in hell.

And Superman can see that.

So, how can he really hate this guy who's in hell?

How do you strike the balance of like when you have an actor like David being like, Hey, I feel like I should deliver it this way, but you know how you wrote it?

How do you strike the balance of like, well, let me say, let me say something about David that's that's important because I make jokes about David all the time, but I love him.

And the thing I learned on that day was that his way was was great, my way was better, but when he understood where I was coming from, it was even better.

And so David taught me something that day.

And

that's the important part of, that's why I love the moment so much and why I was so moved by the whole thing.

But also the other thing I will say about David is David will shut up when I tell him to shut up.

So occasionally he'll have a bunch of questions and I'll be like,

David.

And he's like, okay, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I know I'm irritating.

And then he goes and he does does it whatever I want.

So he has a moment in which he'll just go for what I ask him to do.

It's not like he just will fight until the end of time for something.

With another director, he might, but with me, he doesn't, you know?

And so he knows at the end of the day that I see the big picture and he doesn't, you know, he knows that.

So he's just taking care of his.

performance and taking care of the movie the best he can.

And I completely appreciate it.

He is a great collaborator.

How much do you allow the actors to pick your brain on these characters to like get the most out of what you've written?

As much as they need to.

I mean, you know, it's like there's, you know, I mean, they always think they're irritating me, but they aren't, you know, because Gabby and Sarah, you know, you know, Eve and the engineer, they're always, they're writing me quizzes.

I'm like, we don't want to bother you.

I'm like, you're not bothering.

I love these characters.

I want to talk about them all the time.

Well, it seems like it was,

the way you describe it, I feel like that's something I would do because it's like, it sounds like it's part of David's process because if he doesn't understand what you're trying to get across, it sounds like he can't perform it, right?

And maybe other actors can just act it out regardless, just read it.

And he's just like, I need to feel it or relate to that feeling.

And there will be times when I will say to David, you don't need to understand it.

Just go do what it's saying.

And he'll do that at the end of the day.

But.

you know, along the ride, he's trying to take care of everything the best he can.

And the movie's better for him.

I mean, the dude is a movie star.

Like, you know, he is a movie star.

And so whatever he's doing is working spectacularly well.

I think he's, he's an incredible human being, an incredible guy.

And I make fun of him all the time for being irritating.

And I feel a little bad about it because

he's a great guy.

Yeah, but he is irritating.

Going back a little bit in your iconic career that you've had.

Oh, iconic.

Iconic.

Yeah.

Legend.

He's pretty good.

Pretty good.

Pretty good.

With Scooby-Doo, did you with Scooby-Doo?

did you watch like all, you know, everyone?

Well, I was a huge Scooby-Doo fan growing up.

Okay.

And then I went back and re-watched all the cartoons and stuff.

Before you wrote the movie.

Before I wrote the movies, yeah.

Do you remember what your notes were like for the movies?

They were nightmarish.

It was a nightmare.

It was a nightmare.

In the first movie, it was a nightmare.

The second movie, there was nothing.

Second movie was fine.

But the first movie was a nightmare.

I mean, people know

our first rating was rated R.

Yeah.

And it was, it was about something stupid.

It was not an R-rated movie.

And we just had to cut that one thing.

And then it was PG-13.

But we had written, you know, and directed

with Raja a movie that was for teenagers, basically, that was a little bit more like Austin Powers.

It was more risque.

Yeah.

And they decided that this is a movie just completely.

family for children and everything had to be adjusted to be for kids.

Now, some of it they couldn't get around,

but a lot of stuff was like the girls' cleavage was CGI'd in, you know,

because they thought it was too risque.

Because, you know, one person in a test audience in Sacramento is like, why are their dresses so low cut?

A lot of boobs.

And so,

yeah, so both Linda's and Sarah's cleavage was.

was CGI'd in.

Wow.

Speaking of rated R,

obviously Peacemaker is more for the adults.

There's obviously swearing.

There's

violence.

There's a little bit of an orgy.

Orgy rating in the first episode.

I saw a promo with you and John saying, you can say fuck in this video.

Do you find that that gives you a certain level of creative freedom, you know, especially with these universes being connected?

That if you watch Peacemaker,

Does it allow you to, you know, just make it a little bit more real?

Just a little bit more like, hey, we can kind of get into some like messiness or, you know, some messiness.

Yeah.

But you can't with like a Superman.

For sure.

I mean, Peacemaker was always more, you know, grounded.

It was always more like cinema verite in the way we shot it and every aspect of it, you know,

even though the things he's fighting against are these magical, monstrous things.

So, yeah, I mean, but I, for me, it's like,

Making a film or a TV show is communication.

I'm sitting here and I'm talking to you, and I'm not saying

exactly the same things I would say if I went on Tom Segura's podcast because I know the audience is different.

You know,

I'm not saying the same things I would say if I went on a children's show, you know, I'm not speaking to kids.

You and I have known each other for a while, so we talk in a different way than I would talk to somebody I'd never met before.

It's like you're always speaking to an audience, and I think every story is like that, too.

So, Peacemaker is for a specific audience.

It's this sort of balls out no rules and no rules in every way.

I mean, so it just does, it's just a different vibe to it.

It's a different type of artistic

story.

Whereas Superman is another thing.

It is made for everyone, but also that's part of the vibe.

It's like this good natured, colorful, like, that is part of what it is.

And it isn't about, you know, we had some darker things in Superman that I cut out because it just didn't feel like it fit into the vibe of the story.

No, not.

We didn't have an orgy.

There wasn't a bunch of penises.

But

yeah, I mean, they're all, every story is different.

You're speaking to a different audience.

And when you speak to kids and families, you know, you're speaking a different language than when you're speaking to adults.

And, you know, when you have a night out with the boys, you're speaking differently than when you speak with your, go out on a date night.

Can you peel back the curtain on the orgy scene?

How awkward is it?

Is it, Do you have music blasting?

Is it like everyone just like vibe out and like don't even think about cameras?

Yeah, so that song is Hardcore Superstars guest list.

And

that song we blasted the whole time.

But there is something that many directors have complained about called an intimacy coordinator.

Do you know what an intimacy coordinator is?

I've heard about it.

So an intimacy coordinator, for those people who don't know, is somebody who comes on set.

When you're doing a scene that requires some intimacy, anything from like just somebody doing nudity to

somebody,

you know, having to kiss somebody to somebody doing simulated sex on screen.

They talk to the people and the actors involved, make sure they're comfortable and aware of what is happening.

This is something some old school guys have complained about.

To me, it's the greatest thing in the 20th century to come out of movies.

Really?

Because

you can do anything you want.

So these people were hilarious.

I mean, these guys all got paid more money to come in.

Their specials, you know, I forget what the actual term is, but it's like, you know, if you cast a background actress who's playing a saxophone, they get paid more than a regular background actor.

Well, if you show your penis, it's also a

special talent.

So they come in and I don't have to worry about anything because

I used to be sort of uncomfortable.

I don't love

telling people to, you you know, to have sex and okay, now grab their butt or, you know, whatever you're telling.

I'm like, oh, it's just so, you know, it's so, such a weird conversation to have when you're not even totally sure people are comfortable.

And so she went out,

our intimacy coordinator on that day was fantastic.

And she went out and she's, she's like, what do you want him to do?

I'm like, well.

Some of the things that you see.

And, you know, I want him to dance like I did that dance that that guy does.

And

she's like, got it.

Great.

And she's all excited.

And she goes in and she tells them, she's like, are you sure you're comfortable with this?

And blah, blah, blah, this what we want to do.

And then they really go for it.

And so it's, it's a really, it's a great,

it's a great thing.

And I'm so grateful for those people.

Now, sometimes they're weird.

Like they're not always the best, just like nobody at their job is always the best.

Right.

But especially the woman on the top.

How did you describe the threesome with the bounce, the woman on top just bouncing right like so that was like so john's sitting in this chair and then we had him on this lazy susan basically um we had a dual lady like so the grips but long before this you know i'm like okay so i went to the grips and i'm like this is like two weeks before this i'm like okay i want to do this orgy scene and then in the orgy scene i want john in the middle on a chair and his lazy susan's going to go in one direction and then i want a circle around that with people having sex and that's going to go in a different direction.

And then we're going to go around that circle in an opposite direction so that we have this sort of, you know, crazy daisy wheel of sex.

And

so

the grips were so excited about that because they love doing creative stuff.

And so they created this thing and they were excited to show it to me.

I'm barely fit in that house.

But

yeah, and so then, yeah, I would say, you know, we want this, this, these two guys are having sex and this is a threesome, and this guy is going to be masturbating.

This is like, we just come in, oh, we'll get the next person.

I don't know.

It's like, you know, how crazy can we get?

So some of it was them coming up with stuff, and some of it was me saying, well, could they do this instead, you know?

And it's just, you know, it's just, it's a collaboration like everything.

And those people were amazing.

It takes, it takes a while because one of the things that you have to do is in between takes, they immediately put

their clothes back on.

So

you do the scene.

And I think in the old days, we all just, everybody would have just been naked all day.

But now there's like, you know, people are, you know, more attentive to people's feelings in the situation.

And so in between takes, it's not a gawk all.

It's like.

everybody gets the people run out with the robes and giving them the robes and they put on their robes and that's that and it's a closed set you know it's not it's just the necessary people in the tent watching and you know i don't think i was ever even on set when when people were were were naked really i was always off you know just there's a little tent outside the the house

how do you feel about improv or improving certain scenes obviously writing it and directing it i'm sure every word every line is very intentional but are there ever moments where you allow your actors to play around and try some stuff out sometimes they say things in a little bit of a loose way sometimes it really frustrates me frankly because sometimes they say things in a loose way.

And on the day, you know, Michael will come up and say, they're not saying exactly the line that you had written.

And I'm like,

I think it's okay.

And I let it go.

And then we get to the cutting stage.

And I'm like,

oh, man, the reason I had them say that line that way is because of this, you know, this thing.

And they said it minorly different, you know, and it really.

So I don't love it.

But

there are times,

first of all, the biggest improviser on set is me.

So I am always,

you know, the joke of the Peacemaker gang have, and actually every person, Dave Batiste always jokes about it, everybody, because I start giving them extra lines to say, but it's always extras to what the script is usually, or alternate funny things.

And I can't stop laughing when I'm on the godmite because I'm thinking of it as I'm saying it.

And I'm trying to get out what I'm saying.

And then of course, then they all start laughing and they don't even know what I'm going to say.

It's just me giggling like a nickaboop in the corner.

Oh my gosh.

And so I improvise the most.

But also, you know, John improvised.

John will come in with like lists of things he's going to do, but it's always an addition.

It isn't like, it's not changing the dialogue.

It's an also.

It's an also.

Yeah.

Are there any actors out there that you haven't had a chance to work with that would be something you've thought about or you've said, hey, I would love a chance to work with this particular person?

I mean, I would love to work with, you know, all sorts of people.

Yeah, Meryl Streep, I would love to work with.

You know, she's like, she just once sent word that she would love to work with me.

And I'm like, oh, that's that would be incredible.

I love Meryl Streep.

You know, she's one of the greatest actors ever.

There's a million actors I'd love to work with.

And quite a few I would never work with.

I won't ask you who those are.

I'll tell you after.

Yeah.

There's a lot.

I don't want to know.

It's a long list.

I want to know.

It's a long list.

We were going through like last night, my buddy is putting together a movie and he has a list of male actors that are in that range of doing lower budget movies, so well-known,

but not, you know, it's not Tom Cruise or The Rock.

It's like people who are in this middle range.

And we're going through it.

I'm saying, kill that one, kill that one, kill that one, kill that one.

It's about 20%.

But is that coming from people that you've just seen work or that you've worked with personally or that, like...

It's almost all people that I know many people who have worked with them, not just one who say they're giant pains.

Okay.

So yeah, I was going to, what's what's the why behind you might feel that way?

I have a no a-hole policy.

Okay.

If somebody's an a-hole, the only exception is Frank Grillo.

I'll work with him forever.

But other than Frank Grillo, Frank Grillo is the only a-hole I work with.

And when you say a-hole, is that more like kind of diva quality where it's just more they make.

Yes.

If they're mean to crew members, boom, they're out.

If they

want to change everything, they're out.

If they're just pains in the asses, they're out.

I mean, it's just,

but mostly it's if they're mean.

If they're mean, I just don't want to have to deal with it.

Life is too short.

I'd rather have an actor who's not as good.

But also, but a lot of times, but also there's a lot of guys that are that are on this list who are people that cost the production millions of dollars because of being late every day.

So that's another thing.

If you're late every day,

you can't deal with me, man.

I mean, I do 10 hour days.

We're done.

Like, I don't sit around.

I'm not a 14, 16 hour.

I mean, once a movie, we go, you know, longer, you know, to, you know, twice a movie.

But mostly I stay to my schedule and I'm always under budget.

And that's important to me.

And it's important to me and my crew who I work with repeatedly that they get to go home and see their kids and have their family lives and that they can get done with this, the filming of the show in a reasonable amount of time.

And so if you're going to be showing up three hours late, I mean, screw it.

You're a jerk.

Yeah.

So I just don't want to work with you.

You seem just like such a very

loyal guy.

I mean, it's like you've brought all of these people who've been with you for years or friends of yours for years.

You brought everyone up with you.

Is that something that you just always wanted to do?

Yeah.

I mean, I actually think I'm loyal to a fault.

I actually am trying to.

This is a weird thing to say.

I'm trying to be a little less loyal.

And what I mean by that is I work with the same people.

I've had the same agent and manager and lawyer since 1998.

Wow.

Most everyone I've worked with, I've worked with again and again.

And I have a really hard time saying, okay, well, maybe just this movie, I want to do it with a different.

I'll say production designer because my production designer isn't changing.

It's Beth Michael.

But like, maybe I want to do this movie with a different production design.

Even though I love Beth, maybe I want to do this movie with a different production designer to give it a different look.

And I can never bring myself to do that.

I have to be able to do that.

It's, it's really, I never want to hurt anybody's feelings because I love these people.

But I also care about the movies.

So it's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It must be a challenge because on the flip side,

the good part of the loyalty is like you, you have your wife, but like you've created this community.

You've provide for your friends in a way.

Not that, you know, I'm sure they'd be fine, I guess, in some ways without you, but like there must give, that must give you a sense of pride and meaning behind what you do.

I don't know.

Like for me, just taking care of my family, I love my job.

I love what we do.

I love what I've created.

But the purpose behind it is all to me about my community, my family, like my people.

And I don't know.

To me,

the why behind why you have that loyalty, I'm sure must be that gives you that sense of purpose.

Well, I, you know, maybe.

I think that is, that's part of it, but I just, I like,

you know, this is my life.

I mean, I'm working all the time.

And so when I walk on set in Atlanta with my crew, that's my family.

And it's like, I want, they've known me.

They've all worked with me numerous times.

You know, people love working on my sets.

No, nobody thinks I'm easy, by the way.

This is not to say that I'm not, that I'm easy.

I am, I'm hard.

I'm just telling you, I'm tough.

And everyone knows that, but I'm never mean.

You know,

I just am tough.

because I expect the best and I'm really blunt with people.

And if something isn't working, I absolutely absolutely just tell them.

And you just, I'm assuming that's because you just, you know what they're capable of or what you want or what you want.

I mean, it's what I want.

I'm trying to make the movie that I want to make.

And if it's not going my way, I'm not that happy.

And so

I can be tough.

And if somebody's not pulling their weight, then I do fire them.

Like they're gone.

And so it's not like I'm loyal, like, you know, like a maniac.

It's just, I think that I can probably change things up a little more in some ways.

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Before we let you go, I do have to ask, since my audience loves reality TV, I know we haven't talked about reality TV at all.

What are you guys watching, you and Jen these days?

Okay, let me let me be clear.

It's not what we're watching because Jen only watches half the amount of reality TV that I do.

So

what we do is we,

you know, I work all day, like now when I'm writing, right?

I work all day, then Jen and I eat and then we go downstairs, we watch a TV show or two, then she goes to sleep, and then I smoke a cigar and continue watching reality TV.

And so I watch a bunch bunch of shows that she doesn't watch, like Love Island.

Like Jen's doesn't watch Love Island, but I watch every Love Island show.

You watch them all.

Watch them all.

I watch them all.

Now I'm not done with, I think I've got spoiled on who wins.

UK.

Yeah.

Okay,

I'm done with the U.S.

Okay.

I'm most of the way through UK, and I think I know who wins.

But and I think it's, I'm pretty happy about that.

Together, though, we watched Big Brother.

Okay.

So we're watching Big Brother now.

We're frustrated with Rachel.

I become online friends with Taylor.

Do you know Taylor who won won a couple of seasons ago?

And I told her I was going on your show.

And she said,

because she wants me to go on the Big Brother thing.

And I'm like,

I'm like, yeah, but I'm going to go with Nick and talk about reality TV.

And she goes, oh, Nick, Nick can't.

She's, we got to talk deep.

We got to talk deep.

She reminds me of you, actually, in your season, because

you were unjustly picked on in the first season of The Bachelor, I felt like, like just totally unjustly picked on.

And she was the same way on her season of Big Brother, in a much more mean way, even.

And they were just picking on her all the time.

And then she won.

It was awesome.

Is it her?

Because I'm also very blunt too, where I just like, I can't help but just

say what I think or feel at the risk of.

I think her strength is not immediately aware.

I think she comes off first as a pretty girl.

And they didn't know.

how strong she was.

And they just thought she was, because she's quieter than most of the people on the show.

And they just bull they kind of picked on her and bullied her i felt like and then she showed them all have you pulled any inspiration for any characters from reality tv i mean if you love it so much is there any part of you that's like i want to bring some of this into the comic book world or into anything you're creating not that i that i'm conscious of that i can think of but you know listen i always you know i don't like when people say you watch reality tv and this people are going to laugh at me because love island is really it is a lot like this I don't watch the Kardashians I don't like any story stuff right I like people things where people are competing

experiments they like experiments where you're messing with people so I like you know the traders I like you know

I don't like bachelors much since Alan left I wish Alan was still there I don't think it's as good you know as good it's not as funny it's not as funny or fun it's like and it's too formulaic now it's they've just kind of gotten back to they're they're not taking I don't feel like the risks that he took that worked.

Yeah, I hate to say that as a long time member of Bachelor Nation.

I don't like it as a member of Bachelor Nation.

I feel the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I really miss a lot.

But yeah, so I like I love survivor.

Survivor is like my all-time favorite reality show.

But Love Island is just the guiltiest of all pleasures because, you know, it doesn't take much work.

It's like, you know, you could miss big pieces of it if I'm on the phone or go to the bathroom or check my email or something.

What's your Love Island season seven hot, hot take?

Or what was your overall

for U.S.?

Yeah.

U.S.

This is how much this stuff goes through me like coffee and just is out the other end because I'm trying to even remember a single, like name one person from Love Island USA.

I just got done watching a month ago or something.

Huda.

Name.

Oh, yeah.

Hood.

I hate.

Oh, oh, I don't want to say that because I feel sorry for that girl, but how did she last so long?

Producers, I feel like.

I mean, who knows?

I don't, I feel like

Nicolandrea,

do we think that's a real thing?

I don't, it does, they're still dating, right?

They are still dating.

The challenge with that world, though, they look great together.

I was huge fans of them individually.

I felt zero chemistry.

Now, it doesn't mean that I can feel chemistry.

Yeah, who knows?

Because like the problem, as we talked, we've talked about the show is I didn't, I didn't like because the show is filmed in real time the production has the opportunity to read comments and kind of see the discourse and I I feel like a lot of fans felt like it was in overproduced in that regard that kind of forced what felt like a forced date in the middle of the season between Nick and Olange it wasn't as good I mean the previous season of Love Island USA was maybe the top tier top tier oh maybe the best season of any love island ever crazy yeah and then this season was a little bit of a letdown after that.

Although there's a lot of good stuff.

My one hot take is the relationship that seemed the most real to me throughout the whole season was the cowboy guy.

Taylor.

Taylor.

And that girl,

who was Clark, who was totally nice.

And they really seemed to like each other in a completely real way.

And then all of a sudden, he's at the bottom of everything.

There is some, also, I often notice that I'm on the outs on Love Island whenever they do the, because I'm a guy watching the show.

So I like the guys more than the audience does.

The women are constantly reinforcing these angry attitudes towards each other.

And so are the guys,

obviously.

And I wish that there was, I just, I'm always looking for one guy or one girl who is going to say, you know, maybe you should see it from the other person's point of view for a second.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe you should think about this.

And it's very rare that that happens i think the challenge back to your questioning which uh relationships are authentic i don't think you can really know for like at least 12 months because yeah just the opportunity that it's available for these cast members in any of these relationships they're the pressure to stay together even when i was in that type of relationship you're very confused

about your real feelings because of audience's pressure and things like that.

And you, you already know that, like, people are telling you to give it time and you have to get to know people.

So, you just don't even really know what's real and what's not.

And I just remember even, you know, when filming, you know, my first season, and I've told this story before, I knew I was competitive.

Um, I knew I felt something authentic to this person,

but I didn't know what feeling was stronger.

My competitive nature of wanting to win versus like,

well, I know I feel something strongly, but is it, well, I feel you don't, you don't even know.

I remember, you know, Sean from The Bachelor, yeah, we were talking once because he's had a very successful relationship, right?

They're still together, I hope, still together, very successful relationship.

And I was talking to him about that, and I said, What's the deal with that?

And he said, Uh, basically, you just got to forget everything that happened on the show

and pretend like you're starting square one, yeah, and maybe it's going to work out, maybe it's not, but you got to treat that person like you're just starting at square one.

And I'm like, God, that's that's true.

Because The Bachelor, much more so than Love Island,

is a fake situation.

And, you know, it is an evolutionary thing that when you have a bunch of men or a bunch of women with one person, you're going to be attracted to that person in a way that you wouldn't be if it was an island full of people with different people.

And so you're, it just.

Evolution forces you to feel feelings for that person, not everybody, but a lot of people.

And they, they, they suddenly are the most attractive person they've ever seen um because of the way the situation is set up and that has nothing to do with what real life is like so with love island at least it is like it's different people who are vying for the guys and so the chances of lasting in some ways is better but also they're

often a more crazy group well only in bachelor world do you tell the person if you end up with them i only made out with them in the fantasy suite and expect a pat on your back versus uh yeah

those are just like weird conversations where you're well.

And why is it that there's more, you know, as many successful relationships out of Big Brother and Survivor as there are out of Bachelor?

I mean, it's they're pretty commensurate, and it's like the survivor is not a, you know, do you think in, I think they're maybe 17, but um, Boston Rob and Amber's daughters are almost 18.

Do you think we'll see the Boston Rob and Amber

Dove Child on Survivor?

Well, I would root for them because I am an absolute Boston Rob super fan.

Like, yeah.

Boston Rob is

besides Nick, after Nick.

Yes, thank you.

It's my

favorite reality show contestant of all time.

And I will watch any reality show that Boston Rob is on.

So he's on the Traders.

I watch it.

Dealer Don't Know Deal Island.

I will watch that, which, by the way, is a great reality show.

I will, well, especially because I won like

$6 million.

How much did he win?

He won like $8 million.

It's crazy.

I was just looking at it, like, I was watching it, like a producer where he got up to so much money that I was like, oh my God, they got to be killing me.

They got to pull out.

Yeah.

They got to be dying right now.

The movie, the show's budget just went up probably by $6 million more than what they anticipated.

Anyway,

yeah, LeBos, Rob.

LeBos.

I don't know anything about his daughters.

Okay.

Okay.

Would you do any, would you, out of Big Brother, Survivor, Traders, any of those kind of competition shows would you do any okay i would not but i would love to do traders because i played mafia for many years and i was very i was good at mafia okay there was a time when it was really popular in la and i was playing like three or four times a week at different people's homes so would you want to be a trader or would you want to be a faithful trader yeah

it would be fun to hunt the traders though and i feel like yeah i think i could i feel like i'd be good at i know but that but that the problem with the trade and this is the flaw there's a couple flaws with the traders the flaw with the traders is it doesn't serve you to hunt the the traders if you if you not you not to you don't want to tell anyone to hunt you that's you have to find out who they are and then become and then suck and then pretend like you like them until the end yes yep that's the game and so that's not a great game when you think about it it's much more fun if there was more if there was more value to hunting the traders i would be worried i have a hard time lying i feel like i have a bad poker phase yeah poker phase i just don't think of it as lying.

I don't think of it as lying.

But who knows?

I'm used to playing mafia for a couple hours at a time, not for week, four.

Yeah, months.

I don't think it's a week.

How long are they?

They're in the.

I think it's a month.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow.

Three or four weeks.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was supposed to do it season three, but it had to pass.

You didn't do it?

Not season four.

I like how you're whispering on the public.

Sorry.

I know.

Yeah.

But I would love for you to do it.

Someday I think I will.

I was going to do it, and then Nelly and I got hired to host a new show for Netflix that we're doing.

Oh, well, that's

dating show around age gaps.

Oh, wow.

Hopefully.

Maybe that'll be your new.

Yeah.

That'll be your new

cigar show.

I wouldn't say it's a con, it's more, are you a Love is Blind fan?

Off and on.

Okay.

I like, yeah, I like Love is Blind.

It's weird because I'm not sure it doesn't get worse as the season goes on.

But I like it.

I do like it.

You know, I loved certain seasons of other countries.

Like I love the Japanese lettuce playing because it's so tame and weird compared to ours, but also more interesting.

Devil's Plan.

You watched that one?

The Korean show?

On Netflix?

That's a great.

It's a really, it's all these people who are kind of well-known people in Korea and they come into this game show and they have these incredibly complicated, difficult

games that they play, you know, and get eliminated.

eliminated.

And

it's like the

really smart person's reality show.

It's really fun.

Yeah, I remember like now that we're sitting here, like having my back when I was on Bachelor in Paradise,

it meant a lot at the time because not a lot of people at the time had my back, but

I felt like people started to understand just me or feel like you...

you gave them permission when like you came on after paradise and you were kind of giving your commentary oh yeah yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah i came on after yeah that's

And I was like, finally, someone gets me.

That's when I told Ashley.

I told Ashley she was crazy.

Yeah.

And Ashley says, I have not.

Jared really likes me.

And I'm like, you're crazy.

He doesn't like you.

And now they're married.

And I know those guys.

You know, I know Jared.

And Jared was like, he came by the set of Peacemaker.

And

oh, did he?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's got a little cameo.

That's a reveal here.

But like, yeah, he's in the show.

Yeah.

You didn't tell me that.

He does keep a secret.

yeah that's incredible well i i will stand by because i've i've famously told ashley you'll never be with them only for them to be together and jared was living with me at the time when they were secretly dating and he wouldn't tell me oh my gosh but he i still think we were right in a sense that like she she had to accept they would never be together and it was before it wasn't until she said screw this guy yeah uh before jared had to like wake up and kind of realize what was in front of his face.

It's similar to like Natalie and me when we were dating for nine months.

And I was like, I don't know.

I don't know if I could do this.

I don't know.

I'm like, you're younger than me.

I'm so self-conscious.

And she's like, fuck this guy.

And then I was like, please.

I'm so sorry.

So, yeah, sometimes you have to, I think you're sometimes blind, you know, with

what's right in front of you sometimes.

Yeah, but also we were wrong.

Yeah, y'all were wrong.

At the end of the day,

I'm going to be the full trip.

We were wrong.

We were wrong.

Ashley was right.

She's more wise than all of us put together.

She's going to be a housewife.

What?

She's going to be a housewife.

Oh, my God.

Oh, really?

She's been.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Which I'm very.

But see, those are the shows I don't watch because they're not, there's no, you can't win any money.

Yeah, that's true.

I like things where you can win money or where they make you, you know, wear pig suits or

stuff where I like, I don't know.

I don't like just watching people be crazy living life.

You'll have to dabble into the Royal Housewives of Rhode Island, maybe.

Only because I like Ashley.

James, this has been so much fun, man.

God, great.

Appreciate you coming on.

I'm excited for people to watch Peacemaker.

It comes out August 21st.

So if today is August 21st, it is out today.

Comes out tomorrow for anyone listening.

Comes out tomorrow.

It comes out tomorrow.

It's on HBO Max.

Do they call HBO Max now HBO Max?

I have two different apps now that say HBO Max because they keep changing.

And I'm,

it will, but I think it will remain HBO Max.

I don't think they're going to change the name again.

Well, it's out now.

It's incredible, guys.

Watch it.

Obviously, if you're a comic book fan, you'll love it.

If you're not a comic book fan, you'll love it.

For the ladies out there, I promise you, if your man is interested in it, you should sit down and watch it with them.

It's fun.

It's funny.

It's entertaining.

I'm such a huge fan of that franchise.

So I just want to thank you for coming on, man.

It's been fun talking with you.

yeah, just sticking to that.

I'm glad we finally got to do this after only a thousand episodes.

Not quite a thousand, but almost a thousand episodes.

Fucking we got you.

I'm glad it was now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've always like when I started the show, I've kind of like you, it's just, like I said, I always had this kind of delusional belief in myself, even though sometimes when I get to a certain spot, I will have for a moment that kind of imposter syndrome where I'll be like, wait, I'm, what am I doing here?

Maybe I do suck.

But yeah, I always felt like I was, you know, like you, I'm self-aware enough to like, when I started my project, I have to earn the ability to like have the right to like have certain conversations with certain people.

But, anyways, it's been great to, even though I've known you for a while, to be able to have this conversation with you on my show.

And I appreciate you coming on, man.

And it's been a lot of fun.

Great.

Thank you guys.

Yay!

Well, thank you guys for listening.

We'll see you tomorrow.

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