E901 Ask Nick - My Boyfriend's Search History

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Lily and I'm 24 years old.

Speaker 1 How can I help, Lily?

Speaker 3 I am just wondering how to handle my boyfriend's possible porn addiction.

Speaker 1 Okay, when you say possible, what do you mean by possible? And I guess when you say handle, what do you mean by handle? Like.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so possible, just because I don't know what a porn addiction looks like.

Speaker 1 So I don't know.

Speaker 3 I'm not, you know, a therapist. It's not a confirmed porn addiction.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, neither am I.
And I don't know

Speaker 1 necessarily what one looks like, but to your knowledge, how much porn

Speaker 1 is your boyfriend consuming?

Speaker 3 To my knowledge, I have, I snooped a little on his computer. It was an accidental happen upon situation.
And then I snooped a little bit deeper into his history.

Speaker 3 I think I looked at maybe like the previous 10 days of his history. And I think out of the 10, nine days he watched porn.
And it was kind of the amount that was concerning.

Speaker 3 So I would say there was like 20 to 50 links or videos on each day.

Speaker 1 Gotcha. I don't know.
And that's all you know, though?

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's all I know. I did, we have spoken about it.
So there's a little more new story that I wrote in.

Speaker 1 Did you? So yeah, I guess my question, did you confront him or speak to him about this?

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, I did. And I will say confront loosely.
I don't think I did a very good job at like bringing it up.

Speaker 3 I think I could have done better.

Speaker 1 How did you bring it up?

Speaker 3 I brought it up in kind of like a light-hearted context. So I think it was a couple days after I stumbled across this.

Speaker 3 I just was kind of joking around with him and I told him that he needs to start clearing his laptop history. And so he obviously knew what I meant by that.
And we kind of just like joked about it.

Speaker 3 And that I wasn't going to plan on bringing it up further, but I kind of sat with it and I was like, no, that's concerning. I will bring this up further.

Speaker 3 And so I actually texted him and I have the text if you want. Sure.
Yeah. So I just asked him, I just said, can I ask a follow-up question about our porn conversation that is just on my brain now?

Speaker 3 And he said, sure. And I just said, you mentioned the other day that you used to have a porn problem.
I'm just wondering if that's still a thing.

Speaker 3 Because he had mentioned to me that when he was like a teenager, he had like a porn addiction. At least his mom classified it as a porn addiction.
So I didn't dive too deep into that.

Speaker 3 I'm assuming that he was watching it like every day and had a problem.

Speaker 1 Okay. I don't.
Mom's probably the worst person. I mean, I know.
I could picture a mom seeing their son watching porn and being like, oh my God, porn addiction. You're addicted to porn.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. Like, or even just one time.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you ever watch Seinfeld? You probably,

Speaker 1 I know you're only 24, but like.

Speaker 3 I've seen Seinfeld.

Speaker 1 There's this famous episode called The Contest

Speaker 1 where

Speaker 1 they all get together and they compete to see who can withhold masturbating the longest. And

Speaker 1 this group of friends has three men and one woman, Elaine being the woman. And there was a joke by Kramer, and she's like, will women masturbate? And Kramer goes, not every day.

Speaker 1 I only bring that up because most young adult men or most, you know, men that aren't, you know, over the hill, it's not uncommon for them to masturbate on a regular basis. Right.

Speaker 1 And a lot of men out there will use porn to masturbate. And I'm not familiar with your boyfriend or what porn he likes or how he goes about watching porn, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 But it wouldn't be uncommon to pop open the phone or the laptop and search for something that might pique their interest.

Speaker 1 And that could explain why, you know, at even given day, there's a handful of links because he's like popping in, popping out, taking a look.

Speaker 1 If that's what's going on, that's, I'm not in a position to diagnose any of that. Listen,

Speaker 1 I've watched porn. Porn, I do think, is

Speaker 1 a thing out there. Like when I talk about hookup culture, it's like, I've particularly, I've participated in hookup culture.
I've watched porn.

Speaker 1 I still think, like, yeah, I mean, there's, it's too readily accessible these days. It's too available.
I do think it's affected young men drastically.

Speaker 1 You know, when I was younger, when I was a kid, we used to like sneak over to the one or two friends whose dads bought Playboys, you know, and then like one of the parents might have had this like porn video that you'd pop in.

Speaker 1 It just wasn't accessible as it is today. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think as a result, you're seeing a lot of young men discover and be and get used to utilizing porn way too much way too frequently that being said yeah i would be curious what did your boyfriend respond to when you know he brought that up and what was his answer and and did he think he had one or like what was the cause you know what what was his answer well yeah it kind of escalated to a different level that i wasn't expecting because i think he was very upset that i um like went through his history so i think that it kind of escalated in a way that i just kind of made me look at him different, which is kind of what I want to end your opinion on.

Speaker 3 He ended up saying,

Speaker 3 I do watch porn. I don't think I'm problematic.
I just don't clear my history. And I was like, you know what? Fair enough.
I do too here and there.

Speaker 3 The frequency was slightly alarming, but I don't know what's normal. So, you know, that's that.
And he said, I guess I don't either. And that was the end of the conversation.
And then.

Speaker 3 he ended up messaging me later and just saying like did you go through the search bar or did you go through my history and i said like yes I'm sorry. I do feel weird about that.

Speaker 3 Like, you know, invasion of privacy, whatever. And then he said he feels very uncomfortable and that he was super upset and he needed a while to take a step back from it before speaking with me.

Speaker 1 How long ago was that?

Speaker 3 Probably almost a month ago.

Speaker 1 Where are you now?

Speaker 3 So he took a little time.

Speaker 3 I mean, he messaged me like that night and he sent me like a long paragraph just saying how this is where it escalates, how he has felt disrespected and disregarded by many things I've done in our relationship.

Speaker 3 And this is just one of them. And that's kind of where it turned into like something bigger.

Speaker 1 Okay. Did he elaborate on those other things?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I ended up, we like talked, we texted a little bit.

Speaker 3 I said, if there's things you notice about me that are bothering you, I have no way of knowing unless, you know, you talk to me about it. And we ended up like speaking on the phone.

Speaker 3 And he just had really nothing to say. I feel like he just kind of wanted to make me feel bad for snooping and he was embarrassed.
So he wanted to like put it back on me.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I feel like he, I feel like he does that in a lot of our arguments.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Back to the porn conversation. Yeah.
And to be clear, this whole like past alleged addiction, it sounds to me that's less of him saying, yeah, I used to have a problem.

Speaker 1 And I had this other very similar but different experience where not my girlfriend caught me, but my mom caught me and really embarrassed me about like the porn I was watching.

Speaker 1 Or did he actually have one to your knowledge?

Speaker 3 To my knowledge, he used the words, I used to have a porn addiction verbatim. I don't know what he meant by that.
I didn't ask, you know, a lot of questions. He was like a teenager.

Speaker 3 I feel like a lot of teenage boys probably watch a lot of porn. Yeah.
And so I was like, that seems, you know, kind of normal, but addiction is,

Speaker 3 you know, obviously a little bit further.

Speaker 1 What about your sex life with him?

Speaker 3 It's good.

Speaker 3 I do feel like I have been the more sexual one in our relationship,

Speaker 3 which is also another point of the conversation is I didn't realize my boyfriend was that sexual because he just isn't as sexual with me.

Speaker 1 See, I think that's a bit of a problem.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, and that's why I was like concerned about the porn is because I'm like, I didn't know that you were feeling sexy every day.
Like this is news to me.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I don't know how it is for women. Yeah.
But I think masturbating for men is very different than having sex. I agree.
You know,

Speaker 1 so, you know, and I do think sometimes when women catch their male partners masturbating, there's kind of this like,

Speaker 1 really? You'd rather do this than have, like, than. than be with me, than have sex with me, than yada, yada.

Speaker 1 And I think to a certain point, it's a valid question if you were to feel that way, you know, but it's, I think it's all a balance.

Speaker 1 I think for some men or maybe women too, but I have less experience or no experience. I think it can be like a stress relief.
It can be just like something to

Speaker 1 clear your head. Things like that.
Yeah. So listen, I think it was wrong for you to go through his laptop.
I think you know that, right? You know, you're fine. You had a moment of weakness.

Speaker 1 And I can't speak to this past porn addiction that he acknowledged or how deep that went.

Speaker 1 I mean, the fact that his mom is a part of that conversation and like she caught him or something, that would be really embarrassing for any young man. For sure.

Speaker 1 And not too much differently embarrassed.

Speaker 1 And similarly embarrassing to have your girlfriend catch you. I mean, I don't know if you've looked at any of those titles, but there's some weird fucking titles for porn out there.

Speaker 1 And there's this weird porn in general. And I don't think most guys are like paying attention all that to it.
It's just like, click here. What do they look like? What's going on?

Speaker 1 I don't think there's that much thought going into it. I don't think it's a big deal that your boyfriend masturbates every day.

Speaker 1 I don't like, no, I don't think it's a big deal that he would necessarily watch porn to masturbate. At the same time, listen, I think porn affects brains negatively.

Speaker 1 I don't even think that's an opinion. I think it's like a scientific fact.

Speaker 1 And like any, any, whether it's, yeah, whether it's drinking, whether it's smoking weed, smoking cigarettes, whatever, you know like listen we all have our uh vices so to speak but the question is can we have healthy relationships with them right

Speaker 1 you know short of you catching your boyfriend like watching porn even when he's like not masturbating or just like you know that would be weird you know but if yeah if this is really just when he masturbates like i think that's more

Speaker 1 I'm again, not a therapist, but that doesn't sound like necessarily an addiction or a problem.

Speaker 1 It's just more like it could be like a personal ick of yours, but like what you saw on his laptop versus what the reality of the situation is, based on what you're telling me, there's a good chance you saw something you probably shouldn't have saw.

Speaker 1 You shouldn't have snooped. And the appearance of what you saw looked way worse than the reality of what it is.
And I'm basing it on the fact that let's assume your boyfriend masturbates

Speaker 1 on a daily basis. And let's assume that when he masturbates, he's usually consuming porn.
That that would explain the search history that you saw. Right.

Speaker 1 And if that is all he's doing is whipping up the laptop for six minutes a day and watching, you know, a few seconds here, lands on one, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 It probably doesn't take him all that long to complete the task. You know what I'm saying? He's, he's probably,

Speaker 1 you know, if you were had the benefit of watch time, it would probably be very minimal.

Speaker 1 Okay. But that's assuming that's the truth.
I don't know. Like, I don't know if he's sitting down and just watching these.
That would be. But I also don't even know what classifies a porn addiction.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 3 Well, and that was my concern too, is because I don't care if my partner watches porn. I do.
I don't care if my partner masturbates. I do.
Those are not concerns of mine.

Speaker 3 It was more so like just what I saw would make it seem like he was sitting there for like two hours a day. watching porn.

Speaker 1 Did you look at like time stamps? So was that available?

Speaker 3 No, I didn't click on anything. There was no time stamps and I didn't want to like investigate further.
It was just so many links every day, which maybe he's like bopping around.

Speaker 1 I think he's bopping around.

Speaker 1 I've cleared, you know, my search history before. And I think sometimes it could, you know, it's extensive.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it doesn't take much for a couple clicks to like it all this kind of registers, even though like you didn't like really even watch them per se.

Speaker 1 that's it's definitely a possible explanation you know i don't okay yes i the fact that you saw it multiple days in a row and you saw several videos i don't think means he's actually watching these all the way through on a regular basis it might just it might just mean he's masturbating every day yeah which is fine i feel like that's not even a bad thing you know it could be considered healthy so that doesn't bother me well how often are you guys hooking up like having sex?

Speaker 3 Probably like three times a week, I would say on like average. Okay.

Speaker 1 Which is pretty good.

Speaker 3 I mean, we don't live together. So I feel like it's pretty good.

Speaker 1 Normal. How old is he?

Speaker 3 He's 25.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, it's pretty solid.
It's pretty, pretty good. Where are you guys now as a couple?

Speaker 3 We're doing well. I mean, this was like a month ago.
And I don't know. We're just doing well.
I feel like we're like growing together and we're happy together and our sex life is good.

Speaker 3 Even though I am the more sexual person, it doesn't, you know, make it too difficult.

Speaker 1 When you're saying you're more sexual, what do you mean by that? Why do you feel that way?

Speaker 3 I just think that I would like to have sex every time I see him. If I could, that would be like my preferred.
He is more like, I just want to chill sometimes, which is fine.

Speaker 1 And you've communicated this with him?

Speaker 3 Yeah, we've talked about it, but we also, I mean, sometimes there's, you know, like periods of time where maybe he's a little more sexual, just depending on the moment.

Speaker 1 Have you apologized for snooping?

Speaker 3 Yes. Yes.
I don't know if I could have said sorry more. I did apologize.
You know, I was like, I know that was very wrong. Like, I don't ever plan on doing that again.
And I am very sorry.

Speaker 3 Like, that was an invasion of privacy. When we spoke on the phone, I apologized a few times about it.

Speaker 1 Did you apologize for making him feel shame and judged?

Speaker 3 Yes, I did.

Speaker 3 I think I said like I did not mean to, you know, make you feel judged at all. I was just, you know, it was on my brain and I felt like I needed to talk to you about it or it wasn't going to go away.

Speaker 1 What did he say? Like, how did he take that?

Speaker 3 He was just fine about it. I, I don't, I feel like our conversation escalated into a much larger issue than the porn.

Speaker 3 Like it got derailed into something different where he got, you know, very defensive, i would say just because i think he was feeling embarrassed and maybe like i was judging him do you feel is he still doing that i think that over the course of our relationship that is something that i've noticed a few times when we have an issue this was probably just the biggest time that that happened okay well listen i uh yeah i I'm not in a position to diagnose your boyfriend.

Speaker 1 All I can offer is what I said is that based on what you're telling me, I do think there is an explanation that's very believable that doesn't necessarily suggest that he's addicted to porn, but we are making a lot of assumptions.

Speaker 1 But other than this instance, you know, I think if he really had a problem,

Speaker 1 it would be easy to notice.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it would show in other areas, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Whether it's too much or more common than it should be, and you can make a strong argument that like porn is a problem in our society given how success accessible it is.

Speaker 1 But I don't think your boyfriend is probably operating any different than most men his age are. Okay.

Speaker 3 See, that's the tough thing: I just being a woman, I'm like, I have no idea how often these men are watching porn. So, it makes me feel better hearing that that's probably common.

Speaker 1 Um, I'm basing this off the assumption that he's only doing this if he's masturbating, yeah. And he's not

Speaker 1 a computer for hours at a time.

Speaker 1 That, then that, yeah, that would be if

Speaker 1 he, if your boyfriend's sitting down for an hour just watching porn on a regular basis, I would think that would be a little too much. But

Speaker 1 it's definitely possible that all he's doing is browsing,

Speaker 1 looking for

Speaker 1 some

Speaker 1 inspiration. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then listen, listen, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Like, if I were you without trying, you know, I don't think it's all that bad to find the right time to say, again, like, I really sorry for making, sorry for making you feel that way.

Speaker 1 I should not have done that. And in fact, I want us to,

Speaker 1 the last person I want to be. is someone that you feel uncomfortable when it comes to sex or talking about sex or even porn.
Like, if you want to be a freak, I want to be a freak with you or whatever.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, I'm assuming like you want to, you know, right? You probably want to share things with him and make him feel comfortable.
You know, not,

Speaker 1 you don't want him to look at you the same way he looks at his mom, which is like this kind of like shame and like, oh, I can't believe my mom knows I watch porn. You know, it's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and I think there are girlfriends out there who like kind of have a zero talents when it comes to porn, you know, for a variety of different reasons.

Speaker 1 You know, maybe they had an ex-boyfriend who watched too much and it's triggering for them, or maybe, you know, come from a

Speaker 1 community or religion that feels a certain way about it. But

Speaker 1 you've mentioned that you want to have a more sexual relationship with your boyfriend. Have you guys ever talked about fantasies and things like that?

Speaker 3 Not, I mean, we're kind of new, so not to like a crazy extent.

Speaker 1 How new are you guys?

Speaker 3 We've been dating for like six months, so not super new, but still learning about each other's, you know, sexual appetite.

Speaker 1 So maybe you just say something.

Speaker 1 Listen, I wouldn't force it, but if it's, you know, it sounds like you already dealt with it, but like maybe there's a time in the future to just say, you know, I know I kind of violated your trust and made you feel really judged.

Speaker 1 And I hope you know, again, I am sorry. But like, honestly, like, what I regret most about that is that I want to talk about our interests with each other.
You know, I want to know what you're into.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't, I don't even care. I don't care that you watch porn.
I know. I think I was just a little, not to like relitigate it, but like caught off guard, you talking about the past.

Speaker 1 I shouldn't have looked. that was my bad and yeah i mean i'm sure i'm you know whatever

Speaker 1 uh but

Speaker 1 see if you get him to open up i don't know because i think part of it too is like he's a relative it's a relatively new relationship right i don't i think in general i think a lot of guys don't know how their how their girlfriends feel about porn or about them watching porn right yeah porn in general is something that as we grow up we're we're used to having to hide it you know not get caught right there's a lot of you know And again, there are a lot of negative aspects of porn.

Speaker 1 So you snooping on his computer has kind of put you

Speaker 1 closer in his mind to his mom than you want to be.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, give it some time, but like try to find the moments where you invite the conversation.

Speaker 1 And basically, the message you're trying to convey to your boyfriend is, Conversations around sex, I want to be the person you feel the most comfortable talking about.

Speaker 1 And I, and likewise with you, you know, you opening up to him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think we are.

Speaker 1 I definitely didn't, you know, and I would say, and just, but I would say, me going through your computer and asking you that question in the context I asked, like, was the opposite of trying to get to that place.

Speaker 1 You say that to him

Speaker 1 and acknowledge that and see where it goes.

Speaker 3 Okay. And I think we are, you know, very open and comfortable with each other and with, you know, sexual conversation.

Speaker 1 So I don't think it'll be too difficult to do yeah but you definitely don't want like listen but the the reality is is porn has and can replace sex in someone's relationship and i think there are people out there in relationships people who have gotten too into porn where they feel like their partner has disconnected with them you know or

Speaker 1 they're they're watching porn and masturbate in lieu of having sex with their partner and having that intimacy. You guys are relatively young.

Speaker 1 So, you know, I don't think it's, I don't think three times a week is like groundbreaking, but it's a good number. And yeah, he could just be like tired.

Speaker 1 And like, trust me, you don't want, you don't want him masturbating to be the same as him having sex with you.

Speaker 1 Very true.

Speaker 1 Because that is effortless and it's very short.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, you know, it's not like a this or that in his mind. That I can promise you.
And I think that is definitely a big misconception among women out there. But, you know, again,

Speaker 1 all people know what it's like to masturbate. So just put yourself in your shoes, you know, type of thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So is this helpful?

Speaker 3 I appreciate your opinion. Yes, it was helpful because, I mean, yeah, you just never know.
So it's good to hear from a male perspective, especially because, you know, us women aren't sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, keep paying attention, be vigilant. You know, I don't think that means snooping.
I don't think that means consciously looking over your shoulder.

Speaker 3 I'm not a snooper. I don't ever want to snoop again.

Speaker 1 But if something pops up, you know, at least note it, you know, like again, if he really has a problem,

Speaker 3 you'll see it. It'll present itself.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But.

Speaker 3 All right. Well, yeah, that was helpful and I appreciate your advice.
Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, good luck.
Keep us posted and let us know

Speaker 1 what direction this goes. But yeah, just try to.

Speaker 1 It's an opportunity to keep the conversation going about sex and intimacy with him and kind of right that wrong. For sure.
Okay.

Speaker 3 All right. Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Take care.
Yeah, you too. Bye-bye.

Speaker 3 Bye.

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Hi, I'm Caitlin. I'm 29 years old, and I wanted to ask you how to deal with my monster-in-law that lives next door.

Speaker 1 Okay. What makes her a monster-in-law?

Speaker 4 So to give some background, me and my husband have been together since we were in high school. So we're high school sweethearts.
I've known her for a long time.

Speaker 4 She's always been kind of difficult to deal with and things kind of blew up over the holidays. It was December 23rd.
Me and her had an argument.

Speaker 4 There was a lot of family in town and he had family that moved here last year from a different country that was staying with my in-laws and we just didn't like the treatment of them obviously with them living next door we were kind of picking up a lot of the slack and kind of helping them we were driving them around and stuff like that to different appointments

Speaker 4 just helping his cousins out that had just moved here and things got messy in their home quick at my in-laws house with these new cousins.

Speaker 4 And so that's how the argument on the 23rd started was about the treatment of these cousins.

Speaker 4 And there's been several things, but it ended up being my mother-in-law at one point said something like, well, I'm not taking advice from someone that doesn't even come over here.

Speaker 4 And so that's when I blew up.

Speaker 1 But to be clear,

Speaker 1 these cousins were at your mother-in-law's house and you had a problem with what she was doing?

Speaker 4 Yes. So they moved here from a different country and they were living with my in-laws.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And what was the problem you had?

Speaker 4 So, the rules that they were setting on them, I mean, it gets messy quick when you live with people, but like, they couldn't park in the driveway and they have a four-car driveway.

Speaker 4 So, my mother-in-law and father-in-law were purposely parking back to back so that his cousins couldn't park there.

Speaker 4 And so, it kind of caused an issue with like them parking in front of our mailbox because they couldn't park in the driveway.

Speaker 4 And I had no fault to like them because they're really good people, people, but it was causing issues with us and my in-laws.

Speaker 1 Why? How is that causing issues?

Speaker 4 Just the treatment of them. It's like we had to pick up the slack.
So they didn't have a car. So we were driving them around to appointments.
So that's what the argument started about.

Speaker 4 But then it turned into more of the treatment of myself and my kids. And I feel like.
our kids get treated different than some of the other grandkids.

Speaker 4 So that's where it, that's the direction that it went in after she said that I don't come over to her home. And then it was kind of like, well, these are the reasons why I don't come over.

Speaker 4 And so it went off in that direction.

Speaker 1 Is this something that's been an ongoing problem or is this something that kind of snowballed this Christmas holiday and has been an issue ever since?

Speaker 4 I mean, the treatment towards me has been since I've known her. And it's not just me.
It's a lot of people in the family.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 That's just how she is, my mother-in-law. But that's been going on since I've known her.
And I kind of just swept it under the rug.

Speaker 4 I would complain to my husband about it and never say anything to her about it. So she didn't know I felt this way about her.

Speaker 4 And then I noticed that she was taking some of the other grandkids out more, buying them all these toys. There was like different rules in her homes for in her home for different grandkids.

Speaker 4 And so I noticed the treatment of not just my kids, but all the other grandkids, except for these two other grandkids.

Speaker 1 All right. So when you called in, you were asked, like, how do I deal with my monster-in-law that lives next door? What, what does dealing with it like look like to you?

Speaker 1 Like, what, what kind of resolution are you looking for?

Speaker 4 So right now, we're not speaking. I've only seen her twice since Christmas Eve.

Speaker 4 And I guess My thing is like I've just come to terms with like she's not going to change, but I don't know what to do in the future.

Speaker 4 like when my kids want to go over there because right now it's cold outside so like when it warms up and they're in the backyard my daughter will say i want to go over to nana's so i'm expecting that to happen but i'm not really sure like how to move forward i actually reached out to her um on the 26th so the day after christmas i sent her a message and said we need to sit down and talk didn't receive a response sent another one the following day also didn't receive a response.

Speaker 4 And then about a week or so went by, and I received this huge message from her saying that I'm manipulative, I'm a selfish person, and so is that exactly what it is. And she said not to respond.
Oh,

Speaker 4 yeah, I can like read the messages.

Speaker 1 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 4 Okay, so on December 26th, I sent her, hello. At some point, we need to talk to work out our differences because we will be in each other's lives and the kids' lives.

Speaker 4 However, in the meantime, I don't think it's right to take your anger out from me on the children. They're just kids and they have nothing to do with the drama.

Speaker 4 When my daughter tried to hug you at Christmas, you ignored her. Then you gave, I don't want to say their names,

Speaker 4 my three nieces the same dresses and not my daughter. I don't mind if you have a problem with me, but please don't do things to hurt my kids because you're mad at me.

Speaker 4 It's not right and it's not fair to them and it only furthers the idea that you favor my my nieces over my daughter. Let us know when you're available.
And then I messaged her again the next day.

Speaker 4 Hello, again, we need to schedule some time to sit down and have a conversation about this situation.

Speaker 4 In the past, when we have arguments, it never gets resolved and we move on and act like nothing happened. That is not healthy and it just adds more resentment.

Speaker 4 Okay, so this is the next day, December 27th. It says, hello again, we need to schedule some time to sit down and have a conversation about the situation.

Speaker 4 In the past, when we have arguments, it never gets resolved and we move on and act like nothing happened. This is not healthy and just adds more resentment.

Speaker 4 Over the years, you have treated me poorly and I let it go and did not express my feelings. Now that it involves my children, I cannot let it continue.

Speaker 4 If you're going to ignore the situation and we are not going to talk about it, then for my mental health, I have to move on.

Speaker 4 I cry every weekend because of the treatment you have towards me and my kids. I cannot be the best mom to them if I'm upset.
I want you and my kids to have a good relationship.

Speaker 4 I want you and your son to have a good relationship. I want to have a good relationship with you.
That's why I'm trying to fix this and work these issues out. I want to know what I've done to you.

Speaker 4 I'm always nice to you. I always hold things in instead of saying them to you.

Speaker 4 If it can't be a healthy relationship, then it is easier to end it than allow my kids to be treated like that going forward. It is not right for my daughter to ask me why you are not there.

Speaker 4 I have to lie to her and tell her you are working. She's old enough to notice those things.
These are not just one incident. This has been going on for years.
There are several incidents.

Speaker 4 I think you have trauma that you've never dealt with. And I feel bad for that.
I know people who are hurting on the inside hurt others. I want to work this out.
When are you available to talk?

Speaker 1 All right, and then she responds. I love my children on the same level.
They are just innocent and lovely kids.

Speaker 1 You also was telling me to my face, I'm just paraphrasing, that we never take care of you and your husband when he lost his job.

Speaker 1 Please don't forget who paid for your mortgage, food, and bills when that happened. I'm feeling bad reminding you this, but I don't think that we did all this because we don't love your family.

Speaker 1 And please never again say that we have never asked you for money. This is another fake history.
What is she referring to?

Speaker 4 So that was one thing I brought up on Christmas Eve, which had nothing to do. I was so heated in the moment.
And I was like, you guys have never helped us.

Speaker 4 When he lost his job two two years ago, like we had to get mortgage assistance and stuff. And the only person that helped was my dad.
And there was a time when

Speaker 4 before we even had kids that they offered to pay our mortgage as like a gift. And that was, that was years ago.

Speaker 4 So that had nothing to do with what I had brought up, but she brought it up to counter that. So that's what she's talking about.

Speaker 4 There was a lot of things said that I shouldn't have said, had nothing to do with the argument, but I just got so mad that I brought up several things.

Speaker 1 Gotcha. Well, listen, I mean, my big takeaway of this message is obviously she's, I don't know, she feels a certain way.

Speaker 1 I'm sure it was with the best intentions, but you saying things like, I think you have past trauma that you haven't dealt with and hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker 1 I guarantee you, she did not take that well. And I don't know if you said that to deliberately hurt her feelings.

Speaker 1 Because sometimes we say things like that sound nice and it's kind of a little bitchy because we know it'll hurt their feelings.

Speaker 1 I guess you have to sometimes ask when you're, first of all, texts like this are never great because they can be interpreted any way they want.

Speaker 1 And two, you have to be very careful about your messaging when you send a text message because they're going to cherry-pick what they read, you know.

Speaker 1 And your message, I think, at first it came with, hey, I want to fix this. We're going to be in each other's lives.

Speaker 1 I want to fix this type of thing. And then by the end, it was more like you accusing her of stuff and telling her what she needs to do differently, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 She clearly doesn't see it that way. You know, her whole part about like paying for stuff, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm sure that's like her justifying, even if she paid for the mortgage and helped you guys out financially.

Speaker 1 I assume that came from a loyalty to her son and not necessarily out of love for you. I imagine that's how you feel about that.

Speaker 1 And so that really wouldn't explain, as far as you're concerned, why you feel like she treats you a little bit differently because that must, right? That's what you're saying.

Speaker 1 Like she has, it's not often even like obvious or like in your face. It's just more like subtle, like little things.
So you just feel like a disconnect between you and your mother-in-law.

Speaker 1 I think the best way to deal with this is to not make a bad situation worse. And I get the impression that's what you do, right?

Speaker 1 Like stay out of your mother-in-law's business if it doesn't have to do with you or your kids. I would start there, right?

Speaker 1 I would not insert yourself and tell her, the mother of your husband, what she is.

Speaker 1 I just, parents don't take kindly to that, you know, like at some point, you were just some girl, right, that your, your husband went to high school with and he brought you home and you're like, here's this girl, whatever.

Speaker 1 And in that moment, she had all the power and all the authority over your husband. And, you know, because she was the mom and he was, you know, a teenager type of thing.

Speaker 1 And now that's obviously not the case, right? You know, you're his wife, they have kids together. But I think for every parent, that's an adjustment, right?

Speaker 1 And I think that's why there's a lot of like in-law tension sometimes, because there's a power dynamic at play. And this power dynamic often shifts.

Speaker 1 It goes from the person that like, you know, I don't even care if you're a minor or an adult. We always talk about like, well, when should I introduce someone into my family?

Speaker 1 It's like some sort of rite of passage. And depending on how close the family is or the parent-child relationship and the dynamic.
It often is like a big moment, right?

Speaker 1 Like, hey, you need my, I need my parents' approval.

Speaker 1 My family needs to like you. I can't date you unless my family likes you, right? You know, this family has all this power and they get to decide whether that person like passes the test or not.
Right.

Speaker 1 And now that's not the case, right? And I think that on some level, there's always a, that never kind of goes away. Right.

Speaker 1 And that's why people, you know, I think, I think respecting your elders is a mindset, quite honestly, that I think we've lost in general.

Speaker 1 My advice, I guess, to you is, despite everything that's been said, overall, you being mindful of this kind of like, you know, just respecting your elders in the sense that like, yeah, I just don't think you should butt in when it's not needed or welcomed or asked.

Speaker 1 Short of like, you know, God, you know, God forbid, mom-in-law was doing something abusive or cruel. Then, yeah, I guess speak up.

Speaker 1 Don't let people get hurt, you know, don't, you know, but like, if it's just an opinion you have that differs from them. You know, like this whole parking situation or whatever.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 Like maybe, you know, it's like, maybe, yeah, you can, you can stay at our house, but don't park it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Like, just because you do something nice doesn't mean you can't set boundaries with your guests right and your mother-in-law was setting some boundaries with her guest that you decided to like take exception with and whatever you know it doesn't really matter who was right or who was wrong it just really wasn't your business right and for a relationship that's already fragile that's never been great by your own words you're not doing yourself any favors by inserting your opinion where it's not at where it's not welcomed like you're just creating a bigger divide like that annoyed her i'm guessing It would annoy me.

Speaker 1 It would annoy most people. It doesn't matter if you're right.
You know what I'm saying? So for starters, if you really want to fix this relationship, I would start there.

Speaker 1 I would start by not butting in with your mother-in-law when it doesn't involve you, right? Is that fair?

Speaker 4 So I think I miss some of the context with... the argument and like to begin with.
So I came upstairs. I'm notorious for watching the kids at the party.
I sit there and watch my own kids.

Speaker 4 So I end up watching everyone's kids. I come upstairs and my husband and mother-in-law are already in this conversation.
And then he brings me into it and says, hey, Caitlin, what's your opinion?

Speaker 4 And that's how it kind of got started. And then I was like, well,

Speaker 4 you guys invited them here, you know? And she like immediately cut me off after that.

Speaker 1 And that's when she's like, no. Gotcha.
All right. In the future, just say, you know what? It's none of my business.
Yeah. I guess my point is she's your mother-in-law, right? And you're right.

Speaker 1 It's, you know, old dog, new tricks. She's not going to do much changing.
So, this is about like making the best of a situation, right? Like, you're probably right.

Speaker 1 You're, I mean, like, I don't know, most older people have unresolved trauma. You know what I'm saying? Like, most people do, right? And most people haven't worked through it.

Speaker 1 So, chances are, your mother-in-law, you're probably right about that. There's a good chance you're not going to be the person who convinces her to go to therapy.

Speaker 1 And there's also a good chance she never does, right? So, if you're right about this unresolved trauma or whatever ish issue she has against you, that's not going to go away, right?

Speaker 1 And so you have to make the most of the situation. And to do that is to control what you can control, choose to be happy over being right, right?

Speaker 1 Because there's probably a lot of moments when it comes to mother-in-law, you know you're right, you're really pissed off and you decide to pick that fight rather than let it go. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and yes, we don't, you know, no one's saying let her, and I'm not saying let her walk all over you.

Speaker 1 But when it comes to things like, you know, whose favorites, whose kids, that could be very subjective.

Speaker 1 And I don't know, do you, you do you think your kids really notice it they're not old enough yet okay our kids are my daughter's almost five and our son's two we'll worry about that when they notice it but you know what i'm saying like i i think you guys are arguing over a matter of opinion i don't know and like you obviously have this opinion towards your mother-in-law it would be a safe assumption to assume that you have blinders on when it comes to her and her behavior and she has blinders on when it comes to you and your behavior and neither of you give each other the benefit of the doubt you guys have years of miscommunication and resentment for whatever the reason is, but you are going to have to, if you really want to fix this relationship, chances are you're going to have to be the bigger person.

Speaker 1 You're going to have to swallow your pride. You're going to have to bite your tongue.

Speaker 1 And I'm not saying you should be a pushover or let this woman treat you poorly, but I think there's probably a big difference between that.

Speaker 1 and picking your battles and again, staying out of things that you don't need to stay out of and try to kill her with kindness. Like, what's the saying?

Speaker 1 You know, it's a lot easier to attract bees with honey than with vinegar. And I think that's how you have to treat your mother-in-law.

Speaker 1 You really have to go out of your way to try to really make things work.

Speaker 4 So like going forward, if she does anything else, I guess I don't know how to react. Like if I see that something's happening that I don't like, that it's not.

Speaker 1 Well, like what?

Speaker 1 Like, like what? Because right now, all I've heard is things she's done are just like little things that you either observed or assumed or presumed. Like, none of this is like outwardly problematic.

Speaker 1 No one's in danger. No one, you know what I'm saying? This is just like little things that you have noticed that she does or doesn't do that annoys you.
Is that accurate?

Speaker 4 Some of it, yes.

Speaker 4 There's some things that like she, if she has watched them, which we don't let her watch them much anymore.

Speaker 4 or at all, if she watches them, like she completely doesn't follow our rules, doesn't put them down for nap, doesn't put them to bedtime when we ask her to, has given them stuff they're not supposed to have.

Speaker 1 Period. So I don't let her watch them.

Speaker 4 She says things like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's simple.
Yeah. You know, and like, obviously she might not be okay with that, but you can say, like, listen, like, you know, and where does your husband come into this play?

Speaker 1 Like, does he get involved? Does he let you two fight? Is he making you say something to

Speaker 1 her when she doesn't follow your guys's rules? Are they your rules? Or are they your and your husband's rules?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 1 usually I'm the one that says something i think he just kind of lets it slide like if they stayed up late he's like eh it's okay but i i think i do more of the caregiving so i'm the one that's gonna deal with them when they're cranky the next morning that that's fair again also i think the easiest solution is to like just not let her watch your kids but is your husband willing to help you out because like i i really think this to be true But like, if there's any in-law conflict, the glue is the partner.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? If there's any conflict between in-laws, then I think the spouse, the son or daughter of the in-law that you're having a problem with is

Speaker 1 playing a role in that conflict. And it's usually because they're not doing anything about it.
They're not stepping up for you. Your husband's not helping resolve this conflict as much as he could.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm not saying your husband has control over his mom. But it sounds like he could be doing more to support his wife.
That's fair. You know, have you talked to your husband about this?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I I mean, he's getting better.

Speaker 4 He's gone pretty often with his job. So a lot of it falls on me already.
So, but he knows that.

Speaker 1 How does he feel about you and you and his mom not talking?

Speaker 4 He hasn't been talking to them either. I've seen her twice since Christmas.
I saw her at a baby shower for a second and then saw her outside briefly.

Speaker 4 But that's when it's, it's going to get sticky during the summer.

Speaker 1 She's literally your neighbor?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. We live next door.
If I could move, I would move. But we can't afford to move.

Speaker 4 But it's going to get sticky during the summer because my kids will be in the backyard every day and they will see their grandparents over there with the other kids.

Speaker 4 And I know my daughter's going to say, hey, can we go to Nana's? And I don't want to say no because she knows nothing about this. She's completely innocent to it.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, why couldn't you let her go to Nana's? I mean, especially if her cousins are there.

Speaker 4 I guess I just don't.

Speaker 4 like i would have to go with her i don't trust her to watch like when the kids are over there she really doesn't help out with them and from what i've seen when she's watching other kids there she just puts them in front of the screen and then doesn't monitor what they're doing so i just don't trust her so i'd have to go in with her and then i just feel like that's going to be awkward with what's going on it might be yeah well i mean if they're playing outside that's one thing if they're going inside maybe that's the part i'm worried about yeah

Speaker 4 well has any of this been helpful yeah i mean it makes sense what you're saying um i'm just trying to think of how to like apply it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to think if there's a response to what have you ever just knocked at our door?

Speaker 1 No, I haven't. Why not? Like, I mean, she's just your mother-in-law.
She's literally your neighbor. She's your mother-in-law.
Is she that scary?

Speaker 4 I mean, I guess I could do that.

Speaker 1 Then what do you have to lose? I just think one,

Speaker 1 I think text messaging conversations over stuff like this never goes great because again, you two have very strong opinions about each other.

Speaker 1 And when you get text messages, I promise you, she didn't read it in the manner in which you sent it, you know, like

Speaker 1 nor did you, you know, like you read how you feel about them and how you think they feel about you. And you're skimming over words and you're only reading sections of it.

Speaker 1 And that response you got to means that whether she read the whole thing or not, the only thing that really stuck with her is you saying, you have unresolved issues in past trauma. Yeah.

Speaker 1 i could see that and hurt people hurt people and you are hurting me and our kids and she

Speaker 4 she basically tells you to off and you hurt her by saying that yeah and i definitely didn't mean it in that way i mean i come from a background where like a lot of what i do i work with kids in foster care so i

Speaker 1 you probably have trauma you're probably right i'm just saying your goal isn't to point out this woman's problems your goal is to have a relationship with her you're you know you're not her therapist and you're not a you're not her caregiver and she's not a child.

Speaker 1 And so I think we just have to be mindful of that with different relationships we have. It's like, what is our goal of this relationship?

Speaker 1 If your goal is to have a relationship with your mother-in-law and just have it be as peaceful as possible, then you have to go about it in a very different way than say you might with people at work, your husband, your best friend, et cetera, right?

Speaker 1 This is a woman that you didn't choose. She came with your husband.
You know what I'm saying? Like, and so you just kind of have to accept her for who she is, as flawed as she may be.

Speaker 1 And that's back to my original point, which is like, I don't think you are doing anything right now to help you achieve your goal.

Speaker 1 I think you're often doing things that go against what your stated goal is. And your stated goal is, again, to have a somewhat positive relationship with this woman.

Speaker 1 But right now, it sounds more like, even though that is your goal, your actions say you want to change her,

Speaker 1 prove that she's wrong, point out her flaws, critique her. At least that, I guarantee that's how she feels.

Speaker 1 And at times, I just think, you know, and again, at times you might be justified for feeling the way you do, but it does go against your ultimate goal, which is like, I just want to have a peaceful relationship with this woman.

Speaker 1 Like, it's not even your goal, like to be, you know, the closest woman in her life. You just want to be like civil.
And so when it comes to like, who favors who more, I would let that shit go.

Speaker 1 If your kid shows up one day and brings it to your attention, how it makes them feel, deal with it then. All right.

Speaker 1 But until then, like, I don't think reading into situations and projecting your relationship with her onto your kids, not, you know, is helping anyone out.

Speaker 1 And I think there's probably a little bit of that going on. So in the meantime, yeah, don't send another text.

Speaker 1 If I were you and I really want to resolve that, I would knock on our door and I would just say, hey, I'd really like to talk.

Speaker 1 And again, I'm really sorry for anything I said to hurt your feelings, but I hate that we are are at each other's throats. And I really don't want that.
I wouldn't say anything else.

Speaker 1 Stop pointing things out to her. Stop letting her know what she did wrong.
If you, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, you sent a text that said, hey, we need to talk.

Speaker 1 And first of all, I would choose different language because again, back to like the whole like respecting your elders, like you're just going to get a lot further with this woman if she feels like you respect her at all.

Speaker 1 I guarantee you, she doesn't feel like you've ever respected her. And maybe that was a product of you being a rebellious teenager when you met her.
I don't fucking know where this is coming from.

Speaker 1 And I'm sure a lot of that's to do with her own shit. But I promise you, if she feels a little bit more respected,

Speaker 1 you might get a little softer version of her, right? But like you sent a message that said, we need to talk, right? You were telling her what you two needed to do. You weren't asking.

Speaker 1 You were demanding. You were like saying, this needs to happen.
You know what I'm saying? You got to come in a little softer. How would you feel if your adversary told you what to do?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a good point. I wouldn't react well.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, but if your adversary came with a white flag and said, hey, is it possible if, you know, when you're ready, if we could sit down and resolve our differences?

Speaker 1 Because all I really want, all I want to say is I really want us to get on a healthier civil page and leave everything else off the table. You know, how can we get there?

Speaker 1 Ask her questions rather than make statements. or accusations.

Speaker 1 You know, again, and then you, you know, she might say some stuff, but like you're going to have, you're going to have to do your best, again, to not have her trigger you.

Speaker 1 Because again, old dog, new tricks. You're going to have to be the more patient one, probably.

Speaker 1 You know, this is a woman who wants to feel very much like you invaded her family, not the other way around. She wants your respect.
I'm not saying you need to give it to her.

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to frame her point of view

Speaker 1 as well as I can or what I believe it to be, you know? And that you can do with what you want, right?

Speaker 1 But I think to get through this woman is trying to make her believe that you respect her a little bit more than you've shown and to not tell her what she needs to do differently, but like to state a common goal.

Speaker 1 And I think if you do that, maybe there's some hope. Yeah, that makes sense.
And then when it comes to the caregiving and her following the rules, I don't know.

Speaker 1 You're going to have to pick your battles and find the things that you can tolerate and not tolerate.

Speaker 1 You know, if your kids really are a mess the next day because they slept over at grandma's house, then maybe don't have them do that. Or, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 That's why you had sleepovers, whether it was with your friends at your grandma's house because you stayed up all night you watch movies you shouldn't watch eat food you didn't want to eat i don't know that's part of being a kid right and so you know what i'm saying like you got to ask yourself and again i'm not saying you need to be okay with that and you're right like a tired kid the next day can be a real jerk sometimes but you know what i'm saying i i do think there's an element of you've been rivals with this woman for like the better part of i don't know how many years and you're probably both guilty for where this relationship has gotten yeah that's a good point if you really want to fix it I think you need to start doing your part and then hope she does at least a little bit of hers.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 you can't fire her. And unless you want to divorce your husband, you can't get rid of her.
And she's your goddamn neighbor.

Speaker 1 So you're going to have to bite your lip, be the bigger person, and try to figure this out with her. Okay.
But like peace of mind and civility is not you surrendering. Let go of your pride.

Speaker 1 You know, think about how much emotional energy you're wasting on this.

Speaker 1 And whatever amount of bigger person you have to be or swelling your pride will be well worth what you'll gain and the removing the emotional burden of having your mother-in-law and your neighbor being your rival.

Speaker 1 All right. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, keep us posted.
We'd love to know how you guys work

Speaker 1 through this, but no, no more texting her, no more telling her what you two need to do. And

Speaker 1 try to humble yourself and

Speaker 1 raise that flag in hopes that you can have some peace. Cause that's what you want, peace.
And just remind yourself that's really what you want with this woman is peace and stability.

Speaker 1 You don't need her to play favorites or whatever. It's really just about you two.
Leave your kids out of it, like kind of like you want to.

Speaker 1 And like, again, if a few years later, your kids come to you and say, why does grandma like Jane better than us? Then I don't know, then it's an issue, you know?

Speaker 1 But until then, I wouldn't worry about it. And even when your husband asks your opinion about something that has to do with you, stay out of it.

Speaker 1 Because she just assumes you're not going to agree with her. It wouldn't even matter, You know, so what's the point of giving your opinion to someone who assumes you're never going to agree with her?

Speaker 1 Especially when you don't agree with her. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I didn't think about it that way.

Speaker 1 You know, if, if, God forbid, you, you actually want to take her side, by all means, speak up. That'll go a long way.

Speaker 1 But when you want to disagree with her or take someone else's side against her, all it is doing is creating a bigger divide between you and her.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Well, hopefully this was helpful.

Speaker 1 Please keep us posted how things go with

Speaker 1 mom-in-law and wishing you the best.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 1 I appreciate it. All right.
Take care. You too.
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Speaker 1 How's it going? Hey, good. How are you? Good.
What's your name?

Speaker 5 My name is Brittany. I'm 39 and my former best friend is waging campaigns to smear my name.

Speaker 1 Okay, what do you mean? Who's this former best friend?

Speaker 5 Okay, so it's really, it was like my husband's best friend from growing up. We all went to high school together, so I knew him too, but we've been friends for like 25 years.

Speaker 5 I would call him my brother. My kids would call him their uncle.
We've always been close, but since COVID, we became even closer.

Speaker 5 He lives a few hours away, so he would stay with us for weeks at a time.

Speaker 5 We'd travel with him.

Speaker 5 He basically lived at our house up until last summer for like half the time um and last summer we went on a few trips and after the last trip that was a road trip to vegas for his birthday he called up my husband and said that he was disappointed with how the trip went and he's noticed a pattern that he's not happy with then lectured my husband we were in complete shock because we thought the trip was great what was the pattern Well, the complaints were that we didn't make his new girlfriend feel special enough in the group.

Speaker 5 We took too, we take too long when we're traveling. Like we took too long on stops to Vegas.
Our babysitter was late. We ruined his birthday.
We're too affectionate at concerts, me and my husband.

Speaker 5 And my husband bonds with me over their favorite band more than he bonds with him.

Speaker 1 You're married.

Speaker 5 Like we're disrespectful towards him.

Speaker 1 Okay. Weird.

Speaker 1 How did you reply?

Speaker 5 So he called my husband and like lectured him for 13 minutes.

Speaker 5 Then basically was like, before my husband could answer, said, I got to go and hung up then they didn't speak for a few weeks and i was like we gotta call this person he's our he's our family we gotta make up and we both called him together and it like didn't really go well because he was like nitpicking about like how much time we like spent like on a stop on the on the way to vegas things like that like pulling up text receipts and it i just kind of got heated and so like that didn't go well then we both like met with him separately to try to like repair one-on-one And there was some progress made.

Speaker 5 And then we'd like tried to get together, the three of us, to continue with that progress. And he basically backtracked and said he doesn't trust us to like talk to both of us together.

Speaker 5 He feels like he doesn't have a voice in the relationship. And we gang up on him.
So we've, we've like tried, like then my husband tried. I like stepped out of it.

Speaker 5 And it's just like every time it's just like we can't really like get to what he's looking for. It's not like what what his expectations are not attainable.

Speaker 5 And he wants to control everything about like the communication. Like he won't text or FaceTime or talk on the phone or email.
It has to be like one-on-one in person.

Speaker 5 And it's just taking like such a huge mental toll.

Speaker 1 And where do we get to the whole like him smearing your image?

Speaker 5 So eventually it was just too much. And it wasn't like going anywhere.
He would just like twist things and like not take any accountability for his part in it in it.

Speaker 5 So we both like blocked him and said said we need a break. And now he's like going around to all our mutual friends and complaining about us.

Speaker 5 And first it was like kind of like some people we went on a trip with over the summer. So like the tighter group, but now it's kind of like extending outward.

Speaker 5 And everything I've like read and researched is like, just don't give him any gas. you know, don't react.
Don't give him what he wants.

Speaker 5 But he's starting to like say that we have substance abuse problems, which is where I'm getting really upset and don't know how to handle this anymore.

Speaker 1 To who is he saying this?

Speaker 5 Like our mutual friends. So like it started with a close group and now he's like getting wider like with a friend that we're closer with that he's not as close with.

Speaker 1 He called him like last week and what substancy is he accusing you guys of abusing?

Speaker 5 I don't know. Like he's, it's not true.
Like anything that you would do at a concert. we like would see a lot of live music with him.

Speaker 5 So he's like, yeah, he's saying that we are out of control or something, but also we haven't like hung out with him for seven months.

Speaker 1 The picture you're painting is like you've this lifelong friend, family friend, you know, honoree uncle to your kids, like one day just kind of lost it and like completely changed his attitude towards his lifelong high school friends that ended up becoming husband and wife and then

Speaker 1 lost it. Is that, I mean, is that how it feels from your point of view? Yes.

Speaker 5 It's like it is out of character. And it's, but he also, like, he's a little different like he's never been in love.

Speaker 5 He fell in love for the first time over the summer and it didn't work out and like he

Speaker 5 I don't know like he's saying that he's autistic now and he has like he's an alien and he doesn't understand what do you mean he's an like like human emotions like that's he kind of like one time when he did take accountability he like said those kinds of things but was he is he seriously calling himself an alien like

Speaker 5 like yeah he, yeah.

Speaker 1 Is this like a mental health crisis situation?

Speaker 5 I think, yes, I think so. Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay. And like the autistic part in the past few years,

Speaker 1 the number of people who have self-diagnosed themselves for a variety of different ailments when like it went from no one wanted to talk about their limitations or disabilities or shortcomings to like it becoming almost a social status.

Speaker 1 Do you think there's anything like that going on? Or?

Speaker 5 I mean, he's definitely different. I don't, I don't think he got like a formal diagnosis.
I think he just thinks he's special in some way and needs like

Speaker 5 accommodations.

Speaker 1 How much did this heartbreak of his affect him? Like, what do you think was like... A lot.
Okay. Do you think that's what's changed for him?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think he probably felt emotions that he's never felt before.

Speaker 5 And didn't like he's the kind of person that really needs to be in control of every situation. So he felt probably out of control and like blamed it on us slash my husband.

Speaker 5 Like he also seems to want like complete compliance from my husband without question.

Speaker 5 So I think it's like a control thing. He feels out of control.

Speaker 1 And you haven't spoken with this person in seven months, you said?

Speaker 5 So we spoke.

Speaker 5 like in September. We were like on our way to like repairing things, but then he like turned and decided he didn't want to speak to both of us together.
So I just decided to be done.

Speaker 1 What is your concern level other than it's just being really annoying that these rumors and gossip that he's spreading about you to like being

Speaker 1 like affecting you guys?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, it is scary because I'm a professional and we have kids. So like there could be like implications with it.

Speaker 5 But I think he would have a lot to lose too. So I don't know, like, but it's just like like the more people you're starting to tell, like, the more.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 how did you find out that he was telling people this?

Speaker 5 They tell us.

Speaker 1 Okay. And what is their perception of this situation?

Speaker 5 That he's Dululu.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, that's good news, right? So like, it sounds like the people he is telling, he's not fooling anyone.
And everyone kind of

Speaker 1 sees it for what it is, is this person

Speaker 1 is having a mental health crisis or delusional or something. But no one's taking this person seriously.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, you don't know how unpredictable he is, but like, you really think he's going to go to your place of business or no. He's going to come.
He's going to mutual friends, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But I don't know who else like maybe isn't telling us, you know?

Speaker 1 Sure, but like it doesn't matter. You found out through mutual friends that he was saying this, right?

Speaker 1 And had you not found out from those friends, take away the fact that you are aware that this drama between your friend and yourself and your husband's going on but like would you you know it would have affected your life at all would you have known the difference no no okay you know i guess that's what i'm saying it's just like there's no point and you can sit there and worry about bad things happening all the time and and it's a someone who's like at times in their life been a professional warrior i can assure you like it's possible as i've gotten older uh now that i have a kid now that i'm you know married and now i have like responsibilities outside of myself, as you do as well.

Speaker 1 Like, I have gotten better at like, just like I don't have time to worry, so I don't. And I just assume everything's going to be fine until someone tells me it's not.

Speaker 1 Because, you know, I have enough of a responsibility that every day there's a new problem for me to solve that I do have to solve.

Speaker 1 So I don't have time to worry about the things that aren't problems yet. And I think just that mindset might serve you and your husband well.

Speaker 1 I mean, listen, right now, at first, you guys went through the whole like trying to,

Speaker 1 you know, just to like solve what you thought was like some sort of disconnect between you and a friend and then after trying to resolve that disconnect it it became more and more clear that like this is more than just a disconnect like i don't know this this friend is going through something and we are not able to like figure it out what they're going through we can make guesses they had a heartbreak you know that really fucked him up now he's just really acting out of pocket now he's going so far as to like gossiping and spinning rumors about us.

Speaker 1 Like he's saying things that quite honestly are kind of like friend ending things you know and if nothing else he is he has shown to be an unsafe person for you and your husband to associate yourself with now you're kind of getting into like a category of like i mean it sounds like it hasn't and i hope it hasn't but like you have each other you and your husband you have kids i think you mentioned like i mean listen i don't know i think yeah mourn the loss of a friend but what is your goal at this point like is it are you still trying to figure out how to mend this fence or are you trying to figure out like what to do next like what are we trying to do yeah just trying to figure out what to do next.

Speaker 5 I like thought I figured it out with not like blocking him, not giving him any reactions, not giving him gas, but like, it just seems like he's still

Speaker 5 trying to like take this further and I don't know what he wants. And I'm willing to do anything to like stop the rumors.

Speaker 1 Did the rumors happen after or before you blocked him?

Speaker 5 After.

Speaker 1 Okay, that makes sense. That's what I would have guessed.
Those rumors are a reaction to you blocking them is my guess.

Speaker 1 You said this is a guy who really likes control and he likes setting the boundaries of communication and you took that away from him. And

Speaker 1 he is, I'm assuming, spreading these rumors so that you call him up and say, what the fuck?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I don't think that you should call him up what the fuck, but I think, yeah, listen, I get it. Like it's, it's a dirty feeling.

Speaker 1 to know that there's someone out there that's saying terrible untrue things about you, you know, and you want to put a a stop to that.

Speaker 1 And then it feel, you know, it's, yeah, that can really mess with you.

Speaker 1 From what you're telling me, and I mean, I can't give you any guarantees, that's for sure, but like, it all kind of makes sense, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, it doesn't make sense why he is acting this way, but it makes sense from what you're telling me, person who likes control, people who likes to dictate how he communicates with his friends, you blocked him, he panicked.

Speaker 1 overreacted and now he's saying these things to mutual friends quite honestly in hopes that it gets back to you.

Speaker 1 I don't know if he's actually being that Machiavellian or fast forward, but I think our subconscious brains kind of work that way. We kind of say things.
We try to be messy.

Speaker 1 I don't know why this is, you know, but I'm guessing that's why these rumors are popping up.

Speaker 5 It was definitely to get back to us because he told a friend who he's not super close with and we are. And it wasn't like concern.
It was like, here's what they did wrong.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying. So like annoying, but like, I think you can.
rest easy knowing that it's not something that is actually going to create a problem in your world. Okay.
Probably.

Speaker 1 You know, you don't wanna mend this fence, right? Like, you guys have moved on.

Speaker 5 Yeah, don't trust him at all.

Speaker 1 I think you just let it die out, maybe. Okay.
Were you hoping for a different answer?

Speaker 5 No, no, no. I like this is great because I don't wanna like I'm he's a wild card.
So like any like reach out,

Speaker 5 I don't know how he would react and I don't I would have to be like so sensitive and like

Speaker 5 specific.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Has your husband, did your husband reach out to, did your husband reach out to him at all after the rumors that got up or anything like that?

Speaker 5 No, we haven't. He's still like DMing my husband.

Speaker 5 I think my husband just like unfollowed him, maybe not blocked him, but like they're still like after he talked to our recent friend last week, he like DM'd my husband just like a surface level like message and your husband just changed ignored it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, just ignored it.

Speaker 1 I mean at that point is it worth your husband saying like a goodbye? Like a really, like an actual breakup message? Because it doesn't sound like you guys actually broke up with him.

Speaker 5 It was like the last exchange was like, we need space and time.

Speaker 1 That's not the same. Basically.

Speaker 5 Yeah. But like, I mean, like, we could.
I don't, I'm just scared of like his reaction.

Speaker 1 Do you need to be a part of it?

Speaker 1 When you say scared, how scared? Like, what, what, what level of scared?

Speaker 5 Um, it's just like taken such a heavy, like, mental toll just to like get back into that and like deal with him again and hear his response. Like,

Speaker 5 it's just too much.

Speaker 1 So don't. Yeah.
I mean, if that's how you feel. Okay.
You know, at this, I mean, the only, my only advice to you is like protect, protect what matters, right? You and your husband, your relationship.

Speaker 1 Everything he said just sounds bizarre. Like you guys are two of, you're married.
He should celebrate his friend still being affectionate after all these years together. You know?

Speaker 1 like, you know, but again, like the breakup fucked him up. I don't know.
It affected him in a weird way. It doesn't justify his actions.
And like you guys have decided to move on.

Speaker 1 So correct me if I'm wrong, but him spreading these rumors is what's bothered you the most since then and really has stopped you from like just like moving on and letting it go.

Speaker 5 In the beginning, we were just so confused and like heartbroken. Like it was really like going through like a breakup like big time.
Like we talk about it every single day since it happened.

Speaker 5 we think about it like

Speaker 5 you know we cry still like it's it like fucked us up we already like tried everything i feel like really truly yeah i like am totally on board with being done done

Speaker 5 the only thing i like i was wondering if it like i because he like has a weird thing about my husband i think it would even be less dramatic if i was the one to reach out to him because he just like isn't as comfortable with me i don't know

Speaker 5 so um i was just wondering if i should reach out and be like sorry for any hurt we've caused like but please don't spread those rumors anymore it's dangerous i i don't know if that's going to do any good this guy seems unpredictable and i don't think that's going to dictate what he does

Speaker 1 Like he knows he's not supposed to spread them. He's doing, he did it on purpose to get a reaction.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 The fact that he said it to this one friend that you're closest with than he is.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think it's a good sign for you guys in the sense that, like, he's not just going to some, it didn't affect that person's opinion of you. They didn't believe it.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 1 I mean, if anything, maybe you guys have already done this, but have you guys just been like, we don't know what happened

Speaker 1 or why we got to this point? We really wish we didn't. We miss our friend.
Ever since that trip, you have done and said things that feel unforgivable.

Speaker 1 And you don't seem like that you you you haven't given us any sign to either of us that this is a relationship you want to fix and so we feel like we have no choice but to say please leave us alone and then you could bring up the rumors and blah blah blah but like i wonder if like a letter written by the both of you is almost like a therapeutic goodbye or a last ditch hoped to get through to him i don't know because like you know as much as you say

Speaker 1 yeah i don't know but like clearly you guys you know from what i'm hearing you guys are done you guys have it's like you guys have accepted that you can't get through room.

Speaker 1 Like you've said, you've tried everything.

Speaker 1 So like it's more like you give up, but it sounds like you guys have still are mourning the loss of this friendship and this person because the person he has become or has shown you who he is these past seven months is unrecognizable to you.

Speaker 1 Would that be accurate? Correct. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it sounds like you guys are really kind of still mourning this and like haven't and almost like reluctantly agreed that you have to like move on from this person because he's giving you no choice.

Speaker 1 But if he gave you the choice, then yeah, like you would love to have that friend back, but like you don't trust him anymore.

Speaker 5 There are like things that we've said, like if he repaired his trust with me

Speaker 5 first before my husband and then like took and took accountability for what he's done, like that would be a starting point. But we just don't think he's capable of that right now.

Speaker 1 I think if anything, you write a letter. And I always say, like, you know, as always, especially in 2025, don't

Speaker 1 write write a letter that if it that you would have a problem with it showing up on the internet. And I think you could write that letter, no problem, right? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Like, you just always got to be careful of your communication. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I don't know. It could be also like therapeutic for the both of you.
It's kind of almost like say goodbye.

Speaker 1 I'm almost sensing a little guilt that you guys, you and your husband have because it's almost like you don't know what's going on with this guy.

Speaker 1 And maybe it really is some sort of like mental health crisis and you don't feel it, and you don't want to abandon a friend during a crisis.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, he's also like proven to be unsafe for you and your family in relationship. Like his behavior is not okay.

Speaker 1 And like

Speaker 1 any friend that tries to put a wedge between a married couple, like that married couple to disconnect from that, whoever that is. Right.
So he's, he's not giving you much choice.

Speaker 1 So yeah, like a letter that is just kind of like a goodbye letter and restates and reiterates like the relationship as you guys see it without trying to throw out accusations.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're going to have to point out the whole like, we hurt, you know, like, it was very hurtful to find out from our friends that you have been saying X, Y, and Z about us.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm not sure where that's coming from or why you would even say something you know to be completely false. But like, obviously, that was very painful for us to hear.

Speaker 1 And I think most of the letter should be a tone of, we're heartbroken and sad and we don't know what to do. But as painful as it is for us to ask this because we miss you,

Speaker 1 we don't feel safe around you anymore. And I think it's that language that you use.

Speaker 5 And actually send it, yes. Because sometimes you write this just to get it out.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You guys can decide.
You know, you don't have to commit to anything. Write it.
See how you guys feel about it. Maybe it's something you guys are doing therapeutically with yourselves.

Speaker 1 Ask yourself, do we really need to send it? I don't know. Like, maybe you do send it.
Maybe you don't. Like, you guys can sit on it for a while.

Speaker 1 It might be a good exercise for you and your husband to do. It, it, like you said, it's taking up a lot of emotional bandwidth for you guys and it's affecting you guys.

Speaker 1 And you guys right now need to figure out how to let it go one way or the other. Yeah.
Because right now you guys are having a hard time letting it go. He's still DMing your husband.

Speaker 1 He, your husband brings it up to you. Your husband says things like, I don't even know what to say.
And you're like, I don't even know either. Yeah.
You know, it's just like derails our whole day.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Also, we like, all three of us like go see a lot of live music so we like see him out yeah it's weird right so

Speaker 1 and it still feels like you guys haven't completely said goodbye to him i like that yeah you know so maybe write it say goodbye get a little closure for yourselves decide if you think you should send it but you know i don't think sending it's if it's written well And that again, that written well, it's more about like, you guys are sad and you're writing it to say goodbye.

Speaker 1 And this is one of the most heartbroken letters you had to write. And it's just like, you wish it didn't come to this, but you really don't know what to do.

Speaker 1 And you don't even know why it's gotten to this point. And you miss him and you wish you could be there for him, but you, it feels like he has pushed you guys away in ways that you never expected.

Speaker 1 And you don't even, you don't know what to do. And now it's gotten to the point like you don't trust him or feel safe around him.
And no matter how close you were,

Speaker 1 you two will never let anything come between the two of you.

Speaker 1 And that's something that every person in your life, up until like even your kids, to a certain degree, is that like people, you know, like couples that let people know that nothing can come between them and that they're a united front are always going to, you know, those are the strong couples.

Speaker 1 And, and people hate unity, you know,

Speaker 1 people like, will always want to break that up. That's why they say strength and numbers.
People, you know, they see a couple, they want to, there's a little jealous, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Jealousy and things like that. And so, you know, his initial, he needs to respect that.
And if he can't respect that, then he can't be a part of it.

Speaker 1 But the hope, the hope in sending this letter is not because you're going to

Speaker 1 get a letter back in a week being like, just kidding. I don't know.
You're, you're, I read that letter and you're so right. It's basically to like have him sit with it.

Speaker 1 It's there if he wants to reread it whenever he's around. And then, I don't know, maybe someday he comes around.
I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1 But the basically the letter is to leave a door open if that thing that you never expect. And I think

Speaker 1 you don't write it expect, you know, because you're kind kind of expecting him never to come around.

Speaker 1 But the point is, you've, I think the guilt's coming from feeling like you alienated a friend in need because he doesn't know why he's acting this way.

Speaker 1 And you guys have been trying to like, you've been in this kind of survival mode with him, trying to just figure things out.

Speaker 1 And then these rumors started happening, and you're like, what the fuck's going on? And fuck this guy, and we can't talk to him. And you needed to block him, and you don't even know what to do.

Speaker 1 And now you're just kind of like stuck in this like emotional limbo of like, yeah, did we just did we ghost him or like did we

Speaker 1 did we do something what what is going on you know does that make sense am i getting this right yes no you're i think you're nailing it i love this thank you yeah so um yeah that's that's just kind of what i'm hearing so i think what you guys need to care about is what i think you guys are caring about and that is the two of you in your relationship and you guys just need to continue to protect that right and and be a team and come together and figure out what you two need to like let this emotional like just toxicity go and you know at least temporarily or forever and and do you know and that temporarily is like saying what you need to be said you know you're a last-ditch effort of trying to get through to him but even if you don't get through to him the message is there that like this is heartbreaking and sad and you don't want this but like at the end of the day you two will always protect the relationship above all things.

Speaker 1 And that's something you should be proud and happy to say to anyone. For sure.

Speaker 5 I think my husband will love this too.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, sorry you're going.
What a weird, what a bizarre situation.

Speaker 5 So weird. It's weird.
But thank you so much for listening. And thank you for your feedback.
I love your insight.

Speaker 1 Well, thank you. And yeah, I mean, there's no, there's no point in diagnosing guessing further.
I mean, clearly this breakup.

Speaker 5 I have some guesses.

Speaker 1 Yeah, clearly this breakup seemed to have really fucked him up. You know, that's the only thing that makes sense of like riping about you guys being affectionate, you know, and him not knowing how to.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And it was, it was a change in personality, I feel.

Speaker 1 I think sometimes there's always been hints, but yeah, I don't know. People, people get fucking weird, man.

Speaker 1 Like, I know some of my friends that, like, I was friends with in my 20s, I think I mentioned this. I have some friends that like I don't keep in touch with as much as I used to.

Speaker 1 And the truth is, they just got fucking weirder, man. Like, I don't know.
At least I think maybe I got weirder. Maybe I got, I don't know, but like people, people do change.

Speaker 1 And the reality is that you guys all met in high school and stayed friends, but your life, you and your husband's life have drastically changed where his hasn't.

Speaker 1 He's still the single guy who lives a life very much, sounds like it's all about him. Yeah.
Does what he wants to do when he wants to do it? He doesn't answer to anyone.

Speaker 1 He had his two best friends that happened to be married. It was very convenient for him.
And as you guys have matured, involved, and grown, and grown your family and got older,

Speaker 1 your change has been very inconvenient for him. And then he fell in love.
She broke his heart. He got fucking weird.
And it just kind of like, it snapped. He snapped.

Speaker 5 So you nailed it.

Speaker 1 Thank you. You know, sometimes he just has to say goodbye.
Like very few people are lifelong friends. You know, true.
You go through seasons. And you never know.

Speaker 1 I've lost touch with some friends and reconnected in the future. Yeah.
You know, this, the good news is at different stages, I guess. Yeah.
I mean,

Speaker 1 this is a relationship that has an incredible foundation. There is always that hope that.
Even like a couple years from now, he might figure his shit out.

Speaker 1 And that's where maybe sending that letter where I would say vote, I would vote for sending that letter. It's not because you're looking for resolution in the immediate future.

Speaker 1 It's because like you've literally been friends with this guy for 20 some years. And right now he's acting in a way that you don't recognize.

Speaker 1 And maybe he's just going through this midlife crisis of his and he's been fucked up. And I don't know.
Maybe a guy who's been generally living his life for himself by himself needs a wake-up call.

Speaker 1 And maybe this is what this is. I don't know.

Speaker 1 But maybe a year or two from now, if he still has a letter or he'll remember the letter and he's looking for a little bit of grace or a chance to go back in, this letter will be that window for him to swallow his pride and maybe reach back out and say, hey, I was, you know, I was,

Speaker 1 oh, it was a little weird for a while there, guys. Sorry.
You know?

Speaker 1 Who knows? Maybe, you know, you never really know.

Speaker 1 But like, that's where the letter might be a little like, and that's kind of what it is, you know, like in that tone, if in five years he rereads this letter, having like figured out his shit, would that make it easier for him to reconnect with us?

Speaker 1 You know, then maybe send it. It's not the time.
Be careful when you write. Like, this is not the airing of grievances letter.
You know what I'm saying? Like, there's no point in that.

Speaker 1 Short of, like, you can bring up the fact that the rumors he spread. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You can call him out on that. But you know what I'm saying? This is not the time to be like, you know what, to be honest, you've been selfish your whole fucking life.

Speaker 1 Like not, this is not that letter. You know what I'm saying? This is like, we're very sad this happened.
We don't know what to do. We've tried our best.

Speaker 1 We don't know why you've said some of these things. We need to distance ourselves for our own like peace of mind in our relationship.
But like, we wish this wasn't the case.

Speaker 1 But please respect the fact that

Speaker 1 assuming you're, you know, you're not willing to do what we need you to do. Please respect us.

Speaker 5 Like, please don't approach us or is that too aggressive? Or please don't reach out. Please, like, what's the, I'm just trying to figure out the boundary is because we will see them in public.

Speaker 1 And we, we can't be in each other's lives i don't think we can't be in each other's lives yeah we're not gonna respond and we're not gonna we're not gonna have a relationship with you because like

Speaker 1 you've made it impossible to have one and and and we're really sad about that you know something like that

Speaker 1 you know yeah yeah i would i would try to avoid any like very like

Speaker 1 specific demands or requests just like okay yeah type of thing that i asked that question who knows like maybe maybe he's too aggressive for that letter yeah we just we can't we can't have you in our lives this is more basically explained because i think there's a little bit of guilt probably from your husband from just like not responding to these random dms he doesn't know what to say or do and that's just pointing this out us not being your life is is that's why i'm not responding it's why we're not talking that's why we're not reaching out You can acknowledge maybe in the letter that you blocked him, but why you blocked him, it's just more like, I didn't know what to do, you know, and like it's, and you can be vulnerable and say, this is, we have spent hours and, you know, he,

Speaker 1 I don't know how I'll feel about it. Maybe he'll get some sort of, he'll get off on it.
I don't, I don't know. But I think you can,

Speaker 1 the hope of you acknowledging how much energy this has costed you and your husband and how much time you've spent trying to figure out what's gone on with this relationship will certainly like stroke his ego and make him feel validated.

Speaker 1 But the hope is in the future, he'll have some like empathy about like what this emotionally is costing you guys and maybe he'll come around.

Speaker 5 I'm okay with like stroking his ego or doing whatever to make him feel good. I just want this to end.

Speaker 1 Well, part of it ending is you guys being able to let it go, right? Because you can't control him. And part of it ending is you and your husband like kind of agreeing and just letting it go.

Speaker 1 And part of it is also not talking about him anymore.

Speaker 5 That's hard. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Maybe your husband.

Speaker 5 I think also telling the mutual friends to just not tell us if he talks about us.

Speaker 1 Yeah, let the mutual friends be like, Listen, we've heard it all. Yeah, we've heard it all.
Like, we're not talking to him anymore.

Speaker 1 You know, like, listen, like, I think he's just, we've tried reaching out to him. We've tried, but, like, just, yeah, don't.
But that's the thing.

Speaker 1 You got, you have to just, you and your husband should like do a little bit of accounting about what are the things that are keeping us emotionally invested in this.

Speaker 1 And then try to.

Speaker 5 Our friends are trying to get us back together.

Speaker 1 Why, though?

Speaker 5 Because it's inconvenient for them.

Speaker 1 What is their position?

Speaker 1 I mean, I think

Speaker 1 it's a trip. Don't they think his behavior is crazy?

Speaker 5 That we're like throwing away. They think it's, we can't like throw away like 25 years of history.

Speaker 5 Like, I think it's just like if we, if there's like a group trip planned, it's we can't like

Speaker 1 you're not throwing it away.

Speaker 1 I'm like, you're like, again, one day, this man out of nowhere called us up and started airing these random grievances about like how affectionate we are as a married couple.

Speaker 1 And then, regardless of how crazy we thought those accusations were, we like, we tried to like, we're like, yeah, exactly what we, you thought.

Speaker 1 We like, we're not going to like, obviously, let's, I don't know, let's figure this out. He's, he's upset.
We don't know why he's upset. We wanted to talk to him.
And things only got worse.

Speaker 1 And now he is, he is spreading. lies and rumors about us behind our backs.

Speaker 1 You know, if I mean you, I would go to your friends and be like, if you guys know how we should fix this, fucking let us know. We've goddamn tried.
like right yeah

Speaker 5 yeah

Speaker 1 100 yeah so i don't know that's what i would say to your friends what would they say like what have they said like you know he's different and

Speaker 5 um

Speaker 5 like

Speaker 5 just

Speaker 5 trying to like present his perspective I don't know. Like they got to him first.
He got to them first because we consciously decided not to involve our friends. So he got to them first.

Speaker 5 And then we're just here like trying to defend ourselves. And they're, I mean, at first they were like, do we need to be worried about you?

Speaker 5 Are you like, do you like have a problem like with substance abuse?

Speaker 5 We're like, no. Like,

Speaker 5 so I mean, he kind of, they're just, we just have to be on the defense with all these details he's told them that are.

Speaker 1 I'm even more in favor of writing the letter because it just seems, I feel like it closes the loop on all this like friend drama. But listen, I don't know.

Speaker 1 You guys are at a stage in your life that like, I'm not saying fuck your friends, but like, I don't know, like, listen, like, at the end of the day, fuck your friends.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't, like, yeah, you know,

Speaker 1 they'll figure it out. You have more friends.
Yeah, you have other friends, and they're not our only friends. Exactly.
And like, they'll, I don't know if they really

Speaker 1 write the letter. And that's what you, it's like, that's kind of like your insurance policy.
It's like, again, like, we, we tried, guys. Ball's in his court, but like, what do you want us to do?

Speaker 1 We've tried. So, like, talk to him.
And almost like, you guys have no no idea how much emotional energy we've put into trying to fix this relationship.

Speaker 1 So like, no offense, you guys know, have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 And I'm sorry, it's messed up the dynamic, but like, what would you do if someone was out there spreading rumors about you and your family?

Speaker 1 Do an inventory of what's keeping you guys emotionally invested and try to put a stop to that for now. It shouldn't like affect you guys the way it has.
It's not fair.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
It's enough.

Speaker 1 He's going through something.

Speaker 5 For sure.

Speaker 1 But I also think like sometimes, as adults, we can't handhold our friends. Sometimes people have to go on those journeys on their own, and that's and people can come back into our lives.

Speaker 1 It happens all the time. Okay.
All right. Yeah.
Well, good luck. I am sorry you're going through this.
Please, I'd love. Please keep us posted.
I'd love to know. I would love enough.
I will. I will.

Speaker 5 All right. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I love your insight.

Speaker 5 So I appreciate your time.

Speaker 1 Thanks so much. All right.
Best of luck. Take care.
Okay. All right.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 Bye.