E993 - Jessi Hildenbrandt, The Paper Red Carpet w/ Susie, Love Island Astrology, RHOC, RHOM & Cardi B Court

Transcript

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Speaker 9 What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap Edition. Hope you all had a safe and wonderful Labor Day weekend.
We certainly did.

Speaker 9 Natalie had a birthday. It was.

Speaker 10 What did we do again?

Speaker 9 We did a lot of stuff.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 12 It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 9 We're recording this on the Friday before because, as a generous boss, we like to give the team off on Monday. So we are not recording on Monday, but fear not, lots to get into.

Speaker 9 It's a jam-packed episode. So much to discuss.
Susie Evan returns to the household.

Speaker 10 Evan. You're still Evan.

Speaker 13 What did I say?

Speaker 15 Evan. No, this is Susie's nickname.
You know, we all have nicknames.

Speaker 13 Susie Evan.

Speaker 16 returns to the household.

Speaker 9 She went with the other household members, Mary, Leia, Justin. They all went to the premiere of the paper,

Speaker 9 the spin-off of the office coming out on Peacock on September 4th.

Speaker 9 But the household, led by Susie Evans, went to the red carpet event representing the Vile Files, and they had some great conversations with some really dynamic people.

Speaker 9 And you will hear that momentarily. It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 5 Susie, how did it feel to be uh repping the vile files on the red carpet of the paper it was amazing like i honestly feel like it was a highlight of my career so far i'm not even gonna lie no it's a highlight for this show you know that was a big moment for the show and like what better person than susie evans to thanks guys the whole honestly the whole team though like we made just so many like rookie mistakes, but also we were just like, I was looking so impressed.

Speaker 5 I was like, we truly look very professional right now.

Speaker 5 like Like getting compliments left and right from other people there fake it till you make it that's that's literally that's what i've been doing with the show you know yeah that's what i was like wow this is what this is what it is you just learn as you go yeah i think the worst was when i called somebody the wrong name

Speaker 13 that was really bad

Speaker 19 no but everyone around us thought it was her like everyone yeah was confident and it was like a blonde lady so so she was she didn't even know who she was or is this a blonde yeah it was in the way that like it was a blonde lady with bangs.

Speaker 10 And, you know, it's hard to tell. As like a blonde lady with bangs, it's hard to tell.
You know? I actually called her Mary.

Speaker 15 I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah.

Speaker 4 We were just thinking of getting to know her.

Speaker 10 She was like, oh my God, you're so femme.

Speaker 12 Mary, what are you doing on that side?

Speaker 9 We will be getting to that momentarily and airing some clips from that moment of the show later this episode.

Speaker 9 We also have Not That Cosmic joining the show who predicted the fallout of the friendship between Ace, Nick, and Taylor.

Speaker 9 She did a TikTok like a month or so ago and was like, hey, while all you guys are thinking this is a friendship that's going to last forever, she was predicting this fallout before anyone else saw it coming.

Speaker 9 She joins us later this episode to talk about how she came to that prediction and maybe shed some light on, will Nick and Elandria stay together? Do the stars align for their relationship?

Speaker 9 That is later this episode as well. And then later this episode, many many of you are familiar with the Ruby Frankie 8 passenger story.
She is now in jail. It's actually a very troubling story.

Speaker 9 Very, honestly, a lot of the details of the story are shocking. She went to jail along with her, I guess, partner in crime, her evil mentor, Jodi Hildebrand.

Speaker 9 There's a new documentary coming out that covers this story in great detail. And the niece of Jodi is with us to talk about their experience going through this traumatic trauma.

Speaker 9 It's certainly a heavier interview given the context of the story, but we are very appreciative of Jesse and it's certainly a fascinating conversation.

Speaker 9 And if you have followed the story at all or heard about it, you are not going to want to miss that conversation.

Speaker 9 Before we get into the Love Island Fallout, Sierra, do we have any headlines we want to jump into?

Speaker 1 We sure do. Elizabeth Banks is set to star as Karen Reed in the limited series for Prime Video.
Love. Do you think it's too soon for a biopic?

Speaker 15 It does feel a little soon, right?

Speaker 15 right it does feel a little soon yeah but also give it to me quick turnaround i guess but i mean and it's a huge star so i mean it sounds like it's going to be a pretty big picture right that's definitely yeah that's a that's a big cast to put elizabeth banks i feel like with a biopic though you got to let like the dust settle let people kind of forget and then you hit them with that trailer and everyone goes oh my god i've heard yeah like i feel like maybe they're just they're trying to just keep up with the because because the trial, like, just ended, there was so much hype around it, you know, like I think it was a matter of time.

Speaker 9 Is this like a lifetime sitch or is this like a made-for-TV movie?

Speaker 15 No, it's on Prime Video.

Speaker 13 Prime Video.

Speaker 9 Prime Video.

Speaker 14 Amazon.

Speaker 9 Did you guys see the new Ryan Murphy project?

Speaker 13 No. Ed Gein.
Who's that? Oh.

Speaker 14 Another infamous one.

Speaker 24 He was in mind haunting.

Speaker 9 Ed Gein is one of the,

Speaker 9 he's,

Speaker 9 yeah, a very infamous serial killer.

Speaker 9 Who's playing? Charlie, Charlie Sarmar.

Speaker 13 Charlie Hunnam.

Speaker 10 yeah love him he's playing a very disturbing dark character i've never heard of this man before i was neither happy 70s you guys you guys should watch um the david venture series mindhunter starring jonathan groff on next uh we we i've watched you watch that oh

Speaker 10 it's really really good wasn't it like a bunch of serial killers yeah but one of the first like main ones that they kind of like go and interview is ed gain gotcha i believe unless i'm completely wrong and if so let me who knows it was a while ago yeah what's going on in Wisconsin?

Speaker 9 Not much. I think that's kind of the problem.
Yeah,

Speaker 9 a lot of serial killers are from the Midwest.

Speaker 4 Do you think Michael, Michael Parsons?

Speaker 9 John Wayne Gacy was like from Illinois, like

Speaker 9 the

Speaker 9 Chicago area, like 90 minutes from Jeffrey Dahmer.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Do you think Michael Parsons is the serial killer?

Speaker 9 Guys, I'm so excited. Guys, okay, first of all, again, we're recording this on Friday.
Michael Parsons was traded to the Green Bay Packers yesterday.

Speaker 9 This is like one of the biggest trades in NFL history. If you're a Green Bay Packer fan, you know, if you know, you know, this is a very exciting time.

Speaker 9 I know none of you in the household care about this, right? Like Susie, are you, do you care? I don't, as Mary, I know you kind of are a football fan.

Speaker 10 I dabble with the Steelers culturally.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 9 This is a really, very exciting time. Also, can I just say one of the most, I unlocked a new

Speaker 9 hotness of my wife recently.

Speaker 9 The Milwaukee Brewers are like on a bit of a, they have the best record in baseball.

Speaker 9 And I've always been a baseball fan, but like, you know, life gets it comes at you fast, you don't have much time for it.

Speaker 9 I started watching some brewer games, turns out my wife's a bit of a baseball fan.

Speaker 18 Wow,

Speaker 21 that is hot, you know.

Speaker 9 Now,

Speaker 15 also, the other one I told Nick, I dabbled in some baseball players, and it just brings me back to my youth.

Speaker 12 You know,

Speaker 9 you know, whatever. I get to watch some baseball, we get to do it as a family, it's a family affair.

Speaker 12 Yeah,

Speaker 16 a lot of hotties play baseball, that's true, yeah,

Speaker 4 and they make the money, you know, and they make that money, and they have tight pants.

Speaker 15 Did you see Austin Butler in Calt Stealing?

Speaker 12 I love.

Speaker 9 Well, my wife has always been just interested enough in sports that we like, what I love about Natalie when it comes to sports, it's like she does. He's not like hardcore like me.

Speaker 9 It's not like we're like, oh, yeah, high-fiving. She definitely makes fun of me in the best possible way as like a wife show when it comes to the.
the fantasy that is sports.

Speaker 9 It's like my dungeons and dragons. But like, it's a family affair for Natalie.
Like we do it as a family. Like I feel like she really gets into it like the whole like vibe of the season

Speaker 9 you know like football season really gives fall and I'm telling you ladies if you're listening and if you are have you have a boyfriend or a husband who is into football even casually

Speaker 9 This trade is something like they they know about and so like Natalie would from time to time like would she go on Twitter and like find like a like some sports tweet and like hit me with like a random like analysis of football that I would be shocked that she knew about.

Speaker 21 Like Jerry Jones would never,

Speaker 1 he would never do this.

Speaker 21 The fact that he traded is crazy.

Speaker 9 So if you're Natalie needs to write a book. Ladies, if you're out there, you know, I tell you what, like, listen, you don't need to watch sports with your man.
You, you know, like you, you don't.

Speaker 9 I mean, he doesn't need you. If you don't want to, he doesn't need you by your side on the couch day in and day out.

Speaker 9 But just like, you know, it's always nice to have your partner take somewhat of an interest in the things that they're passionate about.

Speaker 9 You know, i got a couple lines for you just hit them with some some of these questions and act like i didn't tell you to ask these questions you know number one

Speaker 9 ask your ask your partner do you feel like uh or just be like jerry jones was definitely trying to replicate his herschel walker trade okay everyone did you write that down did you write that down

Speaker 9 okay number two do you think my mica parsons could be as good as lawrence taylor okay i feel like that's a good one.

Speaker 15 That'll get him like, that'll get some dialogue out of him.

Speaker 9 How much middle linebacker will Michael Parsons play or will he only play defensive end?

Speaker 9 If you want to go real crazy, you'd be like, do you think the Packers will play some wide nine?

Speaker 11 Wide nine.

Speaker 18 That's a wide nine.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 10 Wait, I got one.

Speaker 10 How does it feel to see Aaron Rodgers in the black and gold?

Speaker 12 Yeah,

Speaker 12 sure.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Black and gold.

Speaker 15 Is he with the Saints?

Speaker 9 He's with the Steelers now.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Also, you could say, is it archie manning or bust for the dallas cowboys okay i feel like y'all got him right

Speaker 7 done yeah y'all got him in your nose

Speaker 2 so listen if your man wants yeah that's true

Speaker 9 like you know the trade happened a few days ago so maybe you know if he is a dallas cowboys fan he he's he's dying he's hiding uh especially if um if your if your boyfriend's like a lions or bears fan if he's a if he is a bears fan ask your boyfriend if he feels like the season's already over because the packers got micah parsons Speaking of football, did you also hear that Jordan Hudson, Bill Belichick's girlfriend, has tried to trademark Gold Digger?

Speaker 23 You know what?

Speaker 2 Good for her.

Speaker 15 Can you trademark

Speaker 1 a term so historically?

Speaker 25 Right?

Speaker 15 It's like, I mean, it's like, what about Kanye West?

Speaker 10 That's what I was saying. I was going to be like,

Speaker 10 not to bring that guy up.

Speaker 15 Yeah, it's like she didn't create the word.

Speaker 15 She's definitely not the only woman that's been called that.

Speaker 11 No. right.

Speaker 5 Is she actually filing for something or is she just making claims?

Speaker 8 It says the application has been accepted by the office, but has not yet been reviewed.

Speaker 13 Wow.

Speaker 15 If she pulls this off, but I'm like, are we branding?

Speaker 1 Are we trademarking a term? Are we trademarking in the sense of like for her brand?

Speaker 16 Like she can start making merch with the name

Speaker 24 of

Speaker 17 brand gold digger.

Speaker 9 Or she will just be able to, like, if someone else does.

Speaker 15 I suppose it's a way to protect yourself from people making merch merch against you i suppose yeah is gold digger really that offensive to her that she needs to like take control of the word you know what i mean like take taking taking it back

Speaker 10 like that word hits you that hard like just don't read the comments maybe she just like really wants to it's so many people are calling her a gold digger and she thinks that if she can trademark it she can make money guys i should have trademarked child child bride yeah what were you thinking i know it's not too late to file did anyone call you a gold digger never too late yeah i i got a few gold diggers for you

Speaker 15 you know they they like to reuse no one's really original these days you know

Speaker 15 if you've heard it once you've heard it a million times they go for the hits yeah they go for the hits for sure

Speaker 1 speaking of hits and things i've never heard of uh cardi b in the courtroom has been sound bites on sound bites it's getting kind of legally blonde it's kind of awesome it's like an SNL skit that's never ending it's it's it's so entertaining it's so good and And this, he's what, the prosecutor, I guess.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 9 Do we have any clips from it?

Speaker 14 No, we do. Yeah.

Speaker 10 She's kind of

Speaker 15 running circles around him.

Speaker 12 Every day there's a new one.

Speaker 10 She's very much giving Marissa Tomei and my cousin Vinny it's a wig.

Speaker 4 So this whole case is because Oscar award-winning

Speaker 10 Marissa Tomei from Oscar Award-winning Marissa Tomei in that movie. And Cardi B maybe could win an Oscar for this performance in the courtroom as well.

Speaker 5 She's definitely winning everyone over.

Speaker 1 She has to play herself.

Speaker 15 She does. She has to play herself.

Speaker 15 So this whole, this whole trial is basically Cardi B is accused of verbally and physically attacking a security guard outside of Beverly Hills medical office in 2018. Cardi B denies

Speaker 15 and she is suing her, trying to sue her.

Speaker 9 Yeah. Money grab.

Speaker 2 Gold digger.

Speaker 13 That's what I'm thinking. Astronomical amount of money.

Speaker 15 Yeah. It's an insane amount of money.

Speaker 5 Honestly, without even hearing the courtroom stuff, I think I immediately side with the pregnant woman. You know what I mean?

Speaker 14 I'm like a security guard.

Speaker 26 She was going into a doctor's office.

Speaker 9 Connor sue.

Speaker 13 Yeah, she's suing her for $24 million.

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 23 It's very Gwyneth.

Speaker 9 Oh, this is like, this is Cardi's Gwyneth moment.

Speaker 15 And what's crazy is hearing the

Speaker 15 security guard on the stand, and they're like, you know, she's trying, I guess, in the initial report, she said that like Cardi has really long nails and she like had scratched her face with her really long nails and had like hit her.

Speaker 15 And so, Cardi's lawyer is like asking her about this, and she's like, Oh, it's in the report. And he's like, But can you tell me, like, what happened?

Speaker 15 She's like, She like can't remember what she said initially, so she keeps being like, Well, it's in the report.

Speaker 7 Oh my god, well, you can go back to the report.

Speaker 9 This is a waste of taxpayer dollars, 100%.

Speaker 8 Craziest one is him being like, Can you hear me? And she's like, Hello, and he goes, Hello, I'm here.

Speaker 13 Yeah,

Speaker 1 she's being sued by this woman for what, like emotional distress or some bullshit For physical for a physical assault, alleging that Cardi cut her face with a fingernail, spat on her, and used racial slurs during the altercation.

Speaker 15 And what's crazy is like from Cardi B's experience, she's like, I'm walking into this doctor's office and the security guard starts like following me with her phone out, like filming Cardi.

Speaker 15 And she's basically like, why are you following me? Like, what are you doing? And this girl like keeps following her, keeps recording her, whatever she's trying to do.

Speaker 15 And then I guess they get into a little like back and forth.

Speaker 15 But talking talking about like her being pregnant and he's like and so how far along were you and she's like i don't know 13 to 12 weeks and he's like so what is that like three four months and she's like

Speaker 12 i

Speaker 13 i don't know don't ask me that

Speaker 4 it is the most like same

Speaker 15 like she's like i know i was 13 weeks and i have no idea how many months that is right yeah her being like them him asking did you call her fat are you saying that she's fat because she's bigger and she's like i didn't call her fat i called her a bitch

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 15 didn't she go no that was when right she was like are you calling my client fat and she's like well

Speaker 5 look oh my god was she pointing at the eyes and they're like well like how would like what do you mean about that and she's like just pointing to her eyes like can you see

Speaker 4 i was like oh my gosh

Speaker 5 she's winning us over though she is that's the thing you know she's not lying on the stand yeah i also just feel like if the person suing is like physically able to walk into the courtroom, I'm like, I'm sorry, 24 million.

Speaker 5 Like, maybe if you were actually affected by this, hospitalized.

Speaker 13 You walked yourself in.

Speaker 15 Talking about, he's like, um, like, asking her if she was disabled or something. Yeah.

Speaker 15 And she was like, when I'm pregnant, I'm very disabled.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.
She's like, do you want a list of things I cannot do?

Speaker 4 He wants a list of things I cannot do.

Speaker 10 Honestly, here's the thing about me in this moment viewing Cardi B on trial. I'm so charmed by her that even if she was in the wrong

Speaker 10 right yeah i'm like let she did nothing wrong suing i agree

Speaker 9 i i i'm not a fan of people who fivorally frivolously sue people for money grabs

Speaker 15 yeah also you took out your camera and started recording her and she's like going she's like i'm going to a doctor's office like clearly i'm like you know like this i'm not like at the park like i'm going into a doctor's office like i'm not okay like anyone going into a doctor's office has something going on with them She was going for like a checkup and she didn't want people to know yet So it's also kind of like you're invading her privacy fully and it's like where are you and then you have the receptionist who's like was a witness to all of this and she's like I had to tell the security guard like get back to your post like leave her alone.

Speaker 15 So it's just like this is I mean, the fact that honestly, yeah, taxpayer dollars are going towards this is crazy. It's crazy.

Speaker 9 Although, if you are, if you get

Speaker 9 requested for jury duty, you definitely want to be on this trial.

Speaker 14 For sure. What a good time.

Speaker 5 I'm sad I missed it.

Speaker 10 Wait, do you guys remember that show, Jury Duty?

Speaker 24 Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah. This is season two.

Speaker 13 That'd be great. Truly.

Speaker 9 Well, like we said before, the paper premieres on September 4th in the Vaufaals household join the red carpet. Headline by Susie Evans.

Speaker 9 And we have a clip to show you guys about their whole experience. So let's take it away.
And then we will talk about it after we get back from the clip.

Speaker 28 We are here at the peacock premiere of the paper, kind of like a spin-off of the office. If you're familiar, it's going to be really exciting.

Speaker 28 We are going to chat with some of the actors, influencers, and comedians that are all here tonight. So, let's get into it.
Hi, how's it going?

Speaker 14 I'm Susie. Hi, Susie.
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 28 Nice to meet you. You know, we actually met like two years ago.

Speaker 28 No chance you would remember me, though. No, no, no.
No chance you would remember me.

Speaker 29 Starting over.

Speaker 30 Coming back.

Speaker 31 Oh my gosh, Leo.

Speaker 26 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 26 How are you?

Speaker 30 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 28 so happy to see you. Okay, I'm a huge fan.

Speaker 9 You know how people are.

Speaker 28 It's mutual. Where do you get your inspiration for the characters that you put out online?

Speaker 9 From everywhere, from the bank, the post office, old

Speaker 9 teachers. You know, I love employees.
I love the service industry, everybody.

Speaker 28 Hi, I'm Susie with the Vile Files.

Speaker 30 I'm so excited to meet you.

Speaker 28 The office has so many fans, and you were such a big part of that. And I just wanted to know what can we expect from the paper tonight?

Speaker 9 I think you're going to like it. It really holds on to its mockumentary roots.
You know, for the people who enjoyed getting into the office, you'll enjoy getting into the paper.

Speaker 29 How's it going?

Speaker 30 I'm Susie.

Speaker 28 Eric, nice to meet you, too. I heard you're a writer, and you will be making an appearance on the show as well, correct?

Speaker 29 That's right.

Speaker 28 Okay, can you tell us a little bit about your character?

Speaker 9 Yeah, my character's name is Travis Beanlin.

Speaker 9 He's like a delivery driver that sits on a couch.

Speaker 28 Are you excited to be here tonight?

Speaker 30 I am.

Speaker 9 And you think Greg Daniels does and Howard and, you know,

Speaker 26 Michael, I'm excited to see it.

Speaker 28 When you're out in public, do people treat you with the same endearment that they would if they were to meet your character?

Speaker 9 They're either disappointed that I'm not the character or relieved.

Speaker 28 So I just wanted to know a little bit more about your character and what we can expect from her this season.

Speaker 32 Adelola Olofin is, I think, someone who is like the smartest person in the room, but has the least amount of interest in anything.

Speaker 28 I wanted to know, people that are fans of the office, do you think that they're going to fall right in and fall in love with these characters in the same way?

Speaker 29 I hope so. I hope so.
I think if you go into it going, okay, this is a new show.

Speaker 33 It's in the hands, safely in the hands of the same creatives, I think it is a kind of avoiding themselves from that this is the office, another office. It's not.

Speaker 31 It's a completely different show.

Speaker 9 It's kind of like a version of ex-Machina with Oscar as a sexy robot.

Speaker 28 Do you have like the worst, a worst job story that you can give us? What's the worst job you've ever had?

Speaker 9 It was a stripper car wash. I was a waiter at a summer camp for children and the kids hated me so much.
So strippers during the day,

Speaker 9 the clubs weren't really populated, so they decided to come together and create a car wash. Their one kid was a ringleader, Mutzi Fierstein.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 26 name drop. Buck him.

Speaker 28 Fuck him. As a fan of The Office, I personally feel like there is an element to the show that's like...

Speaker 28 You are both cringing and feeling so awkward, but also feel very empathetic. How do you even start to write a character that can have both things going at once

Speaker 9 i think that everybody on this planet is cringing you know what i mean and i think cringe is a gift you know what i'm saying like i feel like people have come to like be afraid of being cringy and i think we all have to lean into it and if you look at yourself for real in the mirror like there's some embarrassing parts but you're better for it if you can embrace them

Speaker 9 I think the same goes for these characters.

Speaker 28 Hi, I'm Susie. It's so nice to meet you.

Speaker 28 So what can we expect going into tonight and watching the first episode?

Speaker 28 I've seen the first episode. I can guarantee it's a win, win, a 10 out of 10.

Speaker 28 And I am so excited for everybody for this show to be out in the world because I think it's like just a very smartly written, very funny show, stacked with like an amazing cast.

Speaker 28 Do you know what an ick is?

Speaker 9 Like the feeling of being disgusted by something.

Speaker 28 Exactly. Okay, do you have a co-worker ick that you can share with us?

Speaker 26 An igg?

Speaker 28 An ick. I-C-K.

Speaker 32 An ick.

Speaker 26 Asking me out at work and then me saying, I don't want to date you, and then having to work with them every day again for like a year. You get ill for having a drink.
It's like dermatitis?

Speaker 26 Not quite.

Speaker 9 So I worked in a job once and somebody used to bring in the same sandwich every day, and it was sort of brown bread, peanut butter, sweet chili sauce, and I think bananas maybe.

Speaker 9 And he would microwave it. And the smell in the office, I think, was, I mean, was ick personified.

Speaker 9 Anytime they say, you haven't gotten any older, they don't know what's going on with me, they just don't know.

Speaker 28 I love it, I love it. Well, thank you so much.
All right, you guys, this was our first time doing a red carpet, and it was an adrenaline rush, it was exciting, it was so much fun.

Speaker 28 It got super loud and busy.

Speaker 1 We did the best that we could.

Speaker 28 We tried to get some juicy questions, some fun questions for you guys. I had a blast, and I'm about to go inside and watch the very first episode of the paper.
So, stay tuned.

Speaker 28 I have a feeling it's going to be good.

Speaker 26 Thank you.

Speaker 19 First one, first one done.

Speaker 28 he just said i'm not a virgin anymore

Speaker 9 so much fun that was so good was the best part of the experience susie i think it was

Speaker 1 just

Speaker 5 learning as we were going through like i was so nervous going in and i've like not really been that nervous for work stuff in a long time i think like it was just i was like scared i was like oh my gosh like these are people i watched on the office like i I was a huge fan of the office.

Speaker 5 And they're like suddenly in front of me. And I'm like, wait, I see you as your character, but you're a real human.
And then I just getting into it and getting into the flow of it.

Speaker 5 And then like actually having good rapport with them and feeling like we were just like having fun in the interview.

Speaker 15 I was like, oh, it just felt like

Speaker 5 a really like big moment of growth, I think, for all of us. I was like, this is just so incredibly fun and exciting.
And it just felt like a really good learning experience.

Speaker 5 I was like, this is amazing. So I think just being there and growing and learning.

Speaker 21 Yeah. You did a great job.

Speaker 14 You guys.

Speaker 16 Yeah, you killed it.

Speaker 5 Everyone killed it. The whole team.
We all worked together.

Speaker 9 That's amazing. Well, thanks for doing that for us and hopefully many more to come.

Speaker 9 All right. Up next, we have Not That Cosmic.

Speaker 9 She was the one who called it first some time ago that Taylor, Nick, and Ace. from Love Island USA, that friendship was not going to last long.
And it certainly didn't. The fallout has been messy.

Speaker 9 We'll get into it, but let's start by bringing on not that cosmic to get her analysis on the situation and maybe she'll be able to give us a little bit of a read on since she's making predictions i wonder if she's made a prediction on nickelandrea based off of their chart so let's let's bring her on and uh get the astrology analysis that you are all desperately waiting for

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Speaker 9 Well, welcome to the show. Should we call you Audrey or not so cosmic?

Speaker 19 We can go with Audrey for now.

Speaker 9 Well, Audrey, we found your clip online and you called it, like, I don't know how long ago you made that clip, but you called the fallout of Ace, Taylor, and Nick at a time where many people thought this was, you know, maybe the next PPG or just, you know,

Speaker 9 the next great bromance from reality TV. But like, it didn't take long for this trio to start fighting, you know, online in interviews.
People are being thrown under the bus.

Speaker 9 So I would just love, you know, I'm not necessarily someone who follows astrology that closely, but when you hit it right you hit it right and you were definitely uh one of the first people online maybe the first to call this breakup so we figured we'd bring you on and we'd love to hear you uh how'd you come up with this can you give us a little bit of analysis can you explain to our audience why the star said that these three men would not be friends so i made the video in the middle of june so the season had only barely begun And originally, I just wanted to make a video about the three of them because I saw them becoming a tree.

Speaker 34 And I was like, oh, I'd love to see, you know, what their relationship is like and what's going between them.

Speaker 34 But I was, as I was looking and going through, and especially once I got to Ace and Nick, I was like, hmm, wait a minute. I'm like, they don't look super close.

Speaker 34 I'm like, I'm not seeing a ton of friendship in here. I'm not seeing a ton of like love and harmony.
And I was like, wait a minute. Do they not like each other? I'm like, I don't think Ace likes him.

Speaker 34 And I was a little bit worried to say that. I definitely didn't want to go online and tell everyone that the trio brothers weren't going to stay together.
And it

Speaker 34 did not age well at the time, but it has aged well since then. But honestly, the biggest issue between the two of them is they're just very opposite of each other.

Speaker 34 And having a bunch of oppositions isn't a bad thing. It just means that someone does something differently than you, which can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Speaker 34 You can either, you know, learn something new from someone about how to execute differently, or it just seems like someone is always trying to do the opposite of what you're trying to do.

Speaker 34 And so I think Ace just kind of started to feel a little little bit irritated with Nick, maybe so to speak, with the way that he was acting and behaving opposite of him.

Speaker 34 So, yeah, and I feel like, you know, trios always end up becoming duos at some point. I think we got really lucky with PPG, and I don't think we could have had that perfect combination a second time.

Speaker 15 So, what was it that was different in their charts?

Speaker 34 So, all of the like personal planets that have to do with things like how you regulate yourself, how you like to communicate with others, what your values and morals are, all those things for them are opposite.

Speaker 34 And so they just they execute differently. They need different things to feel safe and secure.
They communicate and reason with themselves in different ways.

Speaker 34 And they also just have different morals when it comes to relationships or just with life. And that can be, you know, romantic or just friendship relationships.

Speaker 34 And so having all those things opposite, it's not always easy to find common grounds. But the one thing that really stuck out to me was that

Speaker 34 Nick's moon, which has to do with his emotions and his regulation and how he takes care of himself, was on Ace's Neptune, which is a planet that can cause some like murkiness and confusion and disillusion.

Speaker 34 And so it kind of seemed to me, I'm like, I don't think Ace really understands who Nick is either.

Speaker 34 So aside from the fact that they're just so different, I'm like, I don't think Ace really understands who Nick is and what he stands for and what he's trying to do with his life.

Speaker 34 And Ace is a Leo and for better or for worse, like Leos like to be very authentic and they like to try to give themselves more authentically.

Speaker 34 So I think he probably felt like maybe Nick was being a bit shady or not showing himself clearly. So it kind of just was a recipe for disaster.

Speaker 15 And I guess when you first initially posted that was the response.

Speaker 9 Yeah, did you get flamed in the comments?

Speaker 34 Yes, I definitely got flamed.

Speaker 34 And even within like the past few weeks, they were like, oh, well, you were wrong about this like they seem super close now you were wrong about this and I'm like okay that's fine if if I'm wrong I'm wrong that's okay

Speaker 34 but then I was just I'm in the process of moving right now and all of a sudden I just get flooded with comments like you were right oh my gosh like even on a podcast you're right I'm like oh my gosh what happened and so it's um they call it astrologer good where like obviously I'm not happy that they're fighting but I was like, okay, but I was right.

Speaker 12 So astrologer good.

Speaker 9 Did you predict? I don't, and I saw the clip of your video, but maybe I didn't see the whole thing, but did you predict any type of timeline?

Speaker 9 Because in my experience, like when it comes to reality TV, you have to give it a few, you have to give it one year for these relationships to really play out how they would in the real world outside of the pressure and the outside influences that being on TV and all the kind of

Speaker 9 bullshit that like these people have to like consider like the real friendships It's it takes at least a year so the fact that you called this and they couldn't even get to like two months post uh the villa I think is not only you getting it but it's a smash hit because like even if they would have taken eight months to break up I would have said you called it yeah

Speaker 34 I think what makes this just year as a whole interesting is there's just a lot of very interesting and whack astrology going on.

Speaker 34 I think we can all feel that with just everything that's going on in the world. You know, there's just a lot of changes happening and all the changes are happening very quickly.

Speaker 34 And so I think it was kind of a thing where there was so many transits that were causing so many irritations.

Speaker 34 Like all of them were just getting hit and punched with things way faster than they would have otherwise, both in the villa and right when they got out of the villa.

Speaker 34 So I kind of knew it was going to be really tense when they all first got out and there was going to be some hostility still there.

Speaker 34 And now we're in a point where some of those planets are going retrograde now.

Speaker 34 And when planets go retrograde, you have to kind of go back and revisit some of the things that were going on when things were still direct.

Speaker 34 So now, not only are they still feeling that hostility, now they have to go back and relive and rehash some of these things.

Speaker 34 So it's just kind of a unique situation that this specific cast is going through.

Speaker 15 Did you make any other,

Speaker 15 did you study like Iris and Pepe or Amaya and Brian? Did you look at anyone else's and find anything similar?

Speaker 34 Nothing terribly similar. I will say,

Speaker 34 I thought Shelly and Ace's compatibility is very interesting. I remember looking at their chart when all the rumors were coming out that they were married and already had babies and stuff.

Speaker 34 And I was like, okay, well, let's look at this.

Speaker 34 They are close together. I think that they do well together.
But I do see signatures in their chart that they could end up getting married or they embody what the person would want in a marriage.

Speaker 34 I was like, okay, that is interesting. I'm like, if they are secretly married.
That would make sense.

Speaker 19 Okay.

Speaker 34 Iris and Pepe, they do actually have a ton of oppositions between them as well.

Speaker 34 So I wasn't super hopeful that they were going to make it last, but I was glad that they were there for each other in the end.

Speaker 34 I obviously couldn't foresee that this terrible thing would happen between them. But

Speaker 15 you couldn't see the woman on Snapchat posting that she slept with Pepe in his chart.

Speaker 34 No, the stars don't give you like extremely specific things like that. No, I wish they could.
That would be really helpful for some people.

Speaker 13 But

Speaker 9 what about? I mean, I have to ask Nicolandrea, who right now receiving Ace's wrath of doubt and hostility. But do the stars say anything about the potential of Nicolandrea?

Speaker 34 I think they could work. I think my concern comes with like the longevity aspect.
I think that their like lifestyles and their routines are just a little bit different.

Speaker 34 So I think long term, they may find that they just aren't like

Speaker 34 sole partners for the rest of their lives. But there's a lot of like mercurial influence between the two of them.
So I think that they really enjoy being around each other.

Speaker 34 I think they're very like stimulated by each other. They have a lot of fun.
They don't run out of things to talk to. They obviously work really well together.

Speaker 34 Like their brand deals are all going really well right now.

Speaker 34 But they do have like a Mars opposition. So they do just take action very differently.
So that over time could cause some arguments, like a... they call it like a tit for tat relationship.

Speaker 34 An example of a Mars opposition we've had in the past was Kayla and Aaron. So you could kind of see how it's like

Speaker 34 you're trying to do the same thing, but you're doing it in opposite way. So you think the other one is wrong, but you're both trying to get the same way and you just can't reason with it.

Speaker 34 The thing is, is like if Nick and Olandria really truly love each other, they will make anything work, but they do have some difficult transits. Both of them have difficult transits coming up.

Speaker 34 So I'll be intrigued to see, especially in this next month, we have eclipses coming up in Olandria's first and seventh house, which is like the relationship access.

Speaker 34 So I could see them either like becoming official or breaking up. But Nick, in particular, also is going through a lot right now.
He's going through a lot of changes.

Speaker 34 I think he's very just confused about the person that he is. I mean, rightfully so, with what he's going through now.
So I don't think what we're seeing right now is going to be the end of the story.

Speaker 34 So I think we kind of have to see how it plays out to see if they really, really want to make this work or if they're just going to go their separate ways.

Speaker 9 Did anything in their chart explain why, despite you predicting the fallout of Ace and Nick, explained why they at least had the short-term friendship that they had on the on the show and in the villa?

Speaker 34 Yeah, so the three gangle of boys we had, they all had similar-ish Mars signs. And that can just show, you know, like how we like to take action, how we like to have fun.

Speaker 34 So I think as a whole, they all just enjoyed having fun the same way. I think they kind of had similar banter.
They enjoyed goofing off in similar ways.

Speaker 34 And what I did notice is that, like, Ace, like, Taylor kind of brought all three of them together.

Speaker 34 He was kind of the glue keeping them together because Taylor was really, really close with Ace and then also has some really sweet synistry with Nick.

Speaker 34 So I think having Taylor there helped them all just have more fun. But then I think once Taylor left, those differences probably started to show up a little bit more.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 15 And are you following any other relationships on reality TV right now?

Speaker 34 Not super closely. I feel like after Love Island ended, social media was just a bit, yeah, a little bit crazy.
So I took a little bit of a brain break, but I'm excited to watch Love Island Games.

Speaker 34 I just watched Perfect Match. I didn't look up all their charts, but I had a lot of fun watching that.

Speaker 19 So hope I can kind of learn more about all of that soon.

Speaker 9 So would you, do you want to go on the record by saying that Nick and Elandria, based off their chart, could in the short term, either define, like, are you saying there's going to be like a definitive decision one way or the other?

Speaker 9 They're going to either define the relationship in the next few months or call it a day?

Speaker 34 Yeah, I think I could say within the next month, especially, we'll definitely hear something about that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 13 All right.

Speaker 9 Well, hopefully you heard it here first. Audrey, also known as Not That Cosmic.
We really appreciate you taking the time. So much fun.
Hope to have you back. Can you, anything you want to plug?

Speaker 9 Where can people follow you and enjoy what you're doing online?

Speaker 34 Yeah, you can find me at Not That Cosmic on X, on TikTok, on Instagram. I'm going to start posting again next week about new stuff.

Speaker 34 My readings are sold out right now, but those will open again sometime next month, hopefully. But yes, just excited to keep going.
Thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely.

Speaker 9 We really appreciate your time. So much fun.
And

Speaker 9 hope to have you back in the future, Audrey.

Speaker 34 Amazing. Thank you so much.

Speaker 12 All right, take care.

Speaker 15 That was great.

Speaker 5 I need to get on her list.

Speaker 17 Me too.

Speaker 5 Can I get on the wait list?

Speaker 9 It'll be really interesting to see if she gets that right. Guys, I just feel like this whole Ace stuff is crazy to me.
Sir, you listened to his episode.

Speaker 1 I did.

Speaker 9 I listened to it on Two Times Speed, but give us the big takeaways because I want to make sure that, like, you know, I've seen a ton of clips from the interview.

Speaker 9 I want to make sure that we're not doing what so many people do with our show that sometimes we get frustrated with, which is like people will take clips or even edit clips or remove things that we say and take things out of context.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 I just want to make sure that we're not speculating or or or

Speaker 9 changing the context of the interview that Ace gave because it really seems like he is, in my read, like throwing his friends under the bus.

Speaker 9 He seems to be throwing even Alandria under the bus.

Speaker 14 Well, let's get what?

Speaker 9 Well, let's just hear what give us the breakdown, Sierra, of the Ace interview that everyone's talking about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's where do you want to start?

Speaker 1 He's throwing production under the bus saying that he was influenced to keep Hudda when he didn't want to, to keep Taylor talking to Alandria when he didn't want to.

Speaker 1 He also claimed that he had talked to production about not wanting a villain edit and then, you know, being surprised at the fact that he did, in fact, get a villain edit.

Speaker 1 When he was asked about the relationship between Nickel Andrea and if he thought that it was real, he proceeded to be silent.

Speaker 14 Yeah,

Speaker 24 throwing the ship.

Speaker 1 And then he was like, I'm going to take by your response or no response that that is the response.

Speaker 1 And he was just kind of like, you know, pretty much said that he wasn't on good terms with Nick at this point, that the only people that he talks to are Alandrea, Shelly, and Taylor.

Speaker 1 And so the interviewer kept being like, okay, well, you're clearly leaving out Nick, who is one of your best friends on the show.

Speaker 1 And he was just like, you know, that Nick didn't have his back getting out of the villa and that he like holds his integrity close to him.

Speaker 1 And that like when Nick had opportunities to defend him, that he didn't.

Speaker 1 But a lot of people are saying that Nick's been very public talking about like Ace's character and like that that he's been backing him up. So I'm not really sure where that's coming from.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And is there any example of Nick talking shit about Ace?

Speaker 1 I don't think we really saw Nick talk shit about anybody.

Speaker 9 Didn't Nick get a fake ace tattoo on his back?

Speaker 4 Yes, he did.

Speaker 1 He's called him his like best bud and like the person he's closest to outside of the villa. And they were fine at the reunion.
So that's the other thing too.

Speaker 1 If you had all of this to say to Nick or about Nick, why wouldn't you air it out there versus on a podcast?

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 10 Oh, also, he got a, he got in the ace font, Nick.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, it sounds nice, but it was the man who was like, stand on business, stand on business, stand on business.

Speaker 1 Right. Did not stand on business at that reunion.

Speaker 15 Or against producers, or again, I mean, it felt like he was like coming for everyone, for everything he was doing himself.

Speaker 9 He's talking out of both sides of his mouth. Like, if you're Mr.
Stand on Business and you're keeping it real, then why, you know, doing the whole classic reality TV thing is blaming producers.

Speaker 9 I thought you kept it so real. There's no metaphorical gun to your head.
Producers certainly can have an opinion. They can ask, but like, hey, listen, like, it's a game.

Speaker 9 And if, and, and fine, maybe, maybe Ace felt like, oh, well, to stay, he had to do certain things.

Speaker 9 I promise you, there were no threats made in production because they don't do that anymore. I'm certainly, I'm certain that Ace felt pressured by producers.

Speaker 9 But again, if he's keeping it so real, no one made him make the decisions.

Speaker 9 that he made also the fact that he suggested that like he told producers he didn't want to be the villain as if like that's just like a role he had an option to play and he didn't want to play it but the producers made him play the role anyways and it's like why did you think you would get a villain edit like he's so well versed in the in reality tv and how it works that he felt he needed to go to producers and be like hey i know the way i've been having behaving or whatever i've been saying might come off as a villain so like please don't use that and make me have a villain edit it's also disrespectful to reality tv villains of old i'm sorry there have been some iconic reality tv villains and it's disrespectful on so many levels one like ace isn't even a real villain like credit to ace he has a large fan base he has fans he's both like popular in the streets and he's popular online sure he has some critics but for some of the villains out there who had like nine fans and like the entire internet hating on them like this is not what a reality tv villain is well now he is by his own making but not on his edit.

Speaker 9 Again, you're quote unquote standing on business, but like you, you, you ripped all of your peers for going on podcasts at the reunion, only for you to go on a podcast and throw them all under the bus.

Speaker 9 And the, and Olandria, who you claim to still be friends with, you're also throwing her under the bus by throwing Nick under the bus.

Speaker 15 Wait, Sierra, didn't he say something about Nick saying like he wasn't romantically into

Speaker 1 something?

Speaker 1 There was like no romantic spark or that like Nick had said that like he's obviously attracted to her, that they were both attracted to each other, but it was coming from more of a friend place and that they were exploring it.

Speaker 9 So he so is he by indirectly accusing Olandria of being in on it or is he accusing Orlandria of not picking up Nick's true intentions that Ace seems to be picking up?

Speaker 9 And like, is that being communicated to Alandria? directly or is she hearing it via the podcast now?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's, those are good questions because I'm kind of like, it sounds like he's trying to imply that a lot of people, he actually did say that a lot of people were not there for the right reasons.

Speaker 1 He was like, I already had followers. I already had Clout.
Like, I didn't need to go in there for that. So he was kind of insinuating that he was the only one there for the right reasons.

Speaker 1 But like, he's saying, he's saying he has a lot of respect for Alendrea, but then I'm like, you're literally saying that like, she's either agreeing to be in a relationship solely for clout or that she doesn't know that this guy isn't into her.

Speaker 5 I also feel like people assume that if you're famous, famous, you're making money, but like you have to be likable to an extent, I feel like. And I'm, I feel like Ace came in with a lot of followers.

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 25 but I feel like he came with a lot of followers.

Speaker 5 And it's like, okay, you have a lot of big numbers, but like, was he getting brand deals? Was he actually making money? And now he went on the show claiming, oh, I'm here for the right reasons.

Speaker 5 Nobody's there for the right reasons. Like, you're on Love Island.
It's okay. You're just there to have fun and like, you know, get around and make money, whatever, and like have a good time.

Speaker 5 But it feels like he's pointing the finger at everybody. And I'm like, I think he's just intimidated by all these guys who are actually likable and getting opportunities.

Speaker 9 Yeah, like Ace clearly has a lot of like good characteristics. You know, he's very intelligent.
He is strategic. And as a strategic guy, I don't have any problem with that.

Speaker 9 But like where his immaturity is showing, and I said this on last Thursday's episode.

Speaker 9 He's reminding me of when I was 18 and I had a girlfriend and my buddy had a girlfriend and their girlfriends were friends and I wanted to be the most in-love couple.

Speaker 9 And like Ace is mad, not because he's the villain, because he's not the favorite couple.

Speaker 24 And he's being really petty about it.

Speaker 9 And like, also, like, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth on so many levels because, like, we've talked about this before.

Speaker 9 There's, there's, there's internet famous and there's mainstream famous. And maybe Ace had a bunch of followers.

Speaker 9 I mean, there are YouTube stars with 15 million followers that, like, the average person hasn't heard of that can

Speaker 9 go to a Chipotle and no one noticed them.

Speaker 9 And now, Ace and Shelly can't walk outside of their apartment and go to any major city without being treated like A-list celebrities for the next couple months and like there's and for Ace to sit there and suggest that like he regrets going on only

Speaker 9 because he wanted to meet Shelly which by the way I'm not so sure anymore that like they didn't have a relationship prior to coming into the villa because he seems to be outing himself in that same interview he kind of stepped on it and accidentally made it seem like when he saw her at the club because he recognized her online that he got her number and then he like backtracked a little bit as if he like caught himself saying something he wasn't supposed to say.

Speaker 9 Maybe that was just like some kind of weird slip, but like, I don't know. You guys remember like when the things happened in the villa, like it was weird.

Speaker 9 when he like went to a Maya right after matching with her and was like, hey, we can't touch each other. It was weird when Shelly tried to pretend that she was into Austin when there was no chemistry.

Speaker 9 And there was so much chemistry from Ace and Shelly from the get.

Speaker 9 And they tried to slow play their relationship which made no sense and it makes a lot of sense that they kind of had they knew each other but

Speaker 9 it's this is it's wild to me like everything Ace is doing right now is benefiting from his from from Love Island like he is not recognizing the fact that he is love island famous and that is very different than going you know being instant like tick tock live famous Yeah, and he also threw them under the bus production as well because they asked about the cold sores outbreak.

Speaker 16 Did they?

Speaker 13 Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1 And he, so that's where I'm like, I might be confusing his reaction to being like cagey or whatever, but like he wouldn't really answer. He said, I didn't get no cold sores.

Speaker 1 Like, you didn't see any cockroaches on my mouth, which I don't really understand the reference. But

Speaker 1 point being is that I'm like, a production, especially a dating show, it's like they have to test for STDs. They have to test

Speaker 1 because they're going to have people kissing in challenges and like whatnot. So I'm like, you're also saying that essentially that the Love Island production team didn't do their due diligence.

Speaker 9 Just a little uh bts on on reality tv testing positive for type one in your blood does not disqualify you and one doctor told me there wouldn't reality tv wouldn't exist if that was the case type two

Speaker 9 uh would get you disqualified you can't get on if you test positive for type two herpes but type one like 80 of the population has it in their blood system uh so they wouldn't have a show as uh a long a doctor once told me uh which is kind of hilarious uh but either way,

Speaker 15 was he shading Nick with

Speaker 14 the 100% he was?

Speaker 13 Yeah, 100%. Right.

Speaker 1 And I think Taylor did a live where he was watching the interview and he was saying something about how

Speaker 1 Charlie and Nick were playing football or something and that, like, that's what happened, or like, that it wasn't a hurt, like, a cold sore. But I mean, I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1 And then he saw Ace say what he said and was kind of like, well, I mean, I didn't see that. So I don't know if that's what was going on.
Like, I didn't notice it. So, like, I don't know.

Speaker 15 And has anyone responded to this podcast? Ace did?

Speaker 1 I don't, uh, no, not that I know of, besides seeing Taylor respond

Speaker 16 while watching the live.

Speaker 1 That's, that's all he was saying. He was kind of, like, watching it as the questions were going on and being like, oh, there wasn't herpes or, like, you know, I didn't see that or whatever.

Speaker 1 And then as soon as Ace was like, yeah, like, maybe.

Speaker 1 uh then he was like oh okay well maybe i don't know but like he wasn't going against ace he wouldn't he didn't come to like nick's full defense either being like i mean it also makes me question like Shelly and

Speaker 15 her friendship with Alandria.

Speaker 15 It's like, if that really is your girl, like, I don't care how Nick feels about whoever, like, if they're my friend, you're not about to go on a public platform and like blast their relationship and tell everyone it's fake and it's this and it's that.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 10 I feel like there are so many instances in where, in which like, You can you have your girl and you may not love her boyfriend.

Speaker 10 And that is something that you can keep to yourself.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 9 Also, it's like, it's one thing for us who like are just, we're fans of the show, we commented on the show or people online to like speculate whether they believe in Nicolandrea or they don't believe in Nicolandrea.

Speaker 9 But these people are their alleged friends who hang out with him. And for them to publicly go on

Speaker 9 on the record and throw shade and doubt their relationship, even if it was just a business transaction, which I would totally respect. Like get your bag, both of them.

Speaker 9 And the fact that they're just like, hey, if they're, we're good friends, we're both hot, we both respect each other, we enjoy each other's company. Let's just like, let's just do this together.

Speaker 9 I, I have no problem with it. And the fact that Ace is calling it out is honestly potentially really costly to Nicolandrea.

Speaker 9 And like, it's just incredibly petty for him to go on record and call it fake. It's giving jealous.
It's giving, we want your brand deals.

Speaker 9 It's giving like, you know, we're only friends as long as I'm the coolest kid on the block.

Speaker 9 It's a,

Speaker 9 I'm just kind of blown away just how quickly Mr. like I stand on business threw all his friends under the bus when he wasn't the most popular couple out of the, outside of the villa.

Speaker 1 So I was wrong.

Speaker 1 Alandria reportedly responded on Twitter saying, child, anyways, my event at Tuskegee went amazing yesterday. And then apparently she deleted that.
And then Nick had also posted on his Snapchat

Speaker 1 after the interview dropped saying this morning 10 out of 10 later in the day four out of 10.

Speaker 5 Honestly, it's kind of giving the Jeremiah. It's like, I feel like Ace saw Jeremiah as such a threat at the beginning and then he took him out.

Speaker 5 And then coming out of the villa, Ace maybe is seeing everything that's happening with Nicolandrea and jealous and he's like taking them out now. And it's like, yeah, I think Nick made a good point.

Speaker 5 It's like, if he's not the top dog, if he's not the number one person, he's going to sabotage people.

Speaker 15 Well, speaking of taking people out, should we get into a little Royal Housewives of Orange County?

Speaker 10 Oh my God, you're reading my mind.

Speaker 15 Reading your mind. Apparently, there's been a little bit of a little back and forth.
Katie Janella is not going. This was her last episode for a couple, couple episodes.
Apparently, she's not tending

Speaker 15 the girls' trip to Amsterdam.

Speaker 15 Yes. Yeah.
Which is a little bit of a confusing reasoning because I heard she said it was because production was trying to protect her.

Speaker 15 And then in that same vein, it was the women don't want her there, they were like not gonna film.

Speaker 8 They were trying to protect her against the women because the women were ginging up on Katie, is what Katie was saying.

Speaker 15 But then, didn't the women also didn't I? I read somewhere that the women were like, We're not gonna film if Katie's there. Oh, wow.

Speaker 15 So, it's like, how is production protecting her when it sounds like they really are like, Hey, we need a show, these women aren't gonna film with you, so like you can't go because we need some shit to film.

Speaker 9 It was a tough episode for Katie. She, um, you know, they did the classic lie detector test on reality TV.
There is a lot of speculation on the reliability of lie detectors tests in general.

Speaker 9 They don't hold up in the court of law. And when they're on reality TV shows, I think they're even slightly less reliable.
Are they even real results? How much production is at play?

Speaker 15 Well, before we get into what happened, let's give a little rapid recap for those who did not watch this past episode of the Real House Vives of Orange County. Jean the Machine is still pulling.

Speaker 15 Shannon wishes she had his Riz. Kikimoni comes in firing on all cylinders, said Katie told her about Naked Wasted and implied Gina was kind of racist.

Speaker 15 Emily killed some goldfish and eggs, her own house to throw a Persian New Year's party that is just a Trojan horse to take a lie detector test. This is Shannon's personal nightmare.

Speaker 15 Also, Tamara shows up. uninvited.
Apparently, everyone told the truth during the test, but they failed some, so make that makes sense. According to the test, Shannon is a truth teller.

Speaker 15 Jin trusts Katie, but not Ryan completely. Heather would rather be in Beverly Hills because of the commute, reel, and did maybe call the paps in Disneyland.

Speaker 15 Gretchen didn't go to the hospital, which means she lied when she told Tamra and Shannon she did. But also, Tamara reminds the audience that known liars can pass these tests.

Speaker 15 So do with that info with what you will. Katie flunked the test, but swears absolutely that she did not lie.
Overall, does Katie seem like a Machiavellian liar or do we think the test was rigged?

Speaker 15 Find out next week on the Roe House Wives of Orange County.

Speaker 9 Justin hit us with a little bravo lore in regards to this particular administrator of said lie detector test. Justin, can you

Speaker 9 give us a little bit of insight?

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, I do want to clarify the one that actually conducted Katie's is a female, so it's not the guy, but she's working with the guy.

Speaker 8 But essentially, this is a well-known polygraph administrator, whatever title you want to give him.

Speaker 8 We don't have to name him, but he's the one that did LVP's lie detector test when she left Beverly Hills. He's done like every person on the internet.

Speaker 8 He did James Charles, and you can easily search his name. And he's been exposed by many influencers that if you pay him enough money, he'll give you whatever result you want.

Speaker 13 Allegedly, or it's been proven, or is this allegedly?

Speaker 8 It's alleged people that have worked with him that have tried to book him.

Speaker 1 Oh, so, like, and I'm like, you're sitting here telling me that when we sit here and watch Gretchen lie to Tamara's face about going to the hospital, but she passes with flying colors, that she tells the truth and nothing but the truth.

Speaker 8 And the same thing with LVP. We know she leaked stories radar online, but clearly they did it twice.

Speaker 8 We know she shot it twice with him and he asked it two different times and that they aired the one where she passed.

Speaker 9 So like that being said, Katie's poker face was not very good. She failed my lie detector test.

Speaker 4 I'm sorry. I just

Speaker 1 for Katie.

Speaker 1 Yeah, justice for Katie on my end too, because I'm like, I feel like that's such a nerve-wracking thing when you know that all of these people fucking hate you and you're like trying to defend yourself and you're on your own.

Speaker 1 You're nervous that it's like, oh, I've never done a lie detector test before. Like, I don't know what they're picking up.

Speaker 10 And when she was like, it doesn't pick up anxiety i'm like yes the fuck it does that's literally your heart rate is spiking yeah should you be administering this test ma'am yeah i kind of feel the same way about tv lie detector tests as i do about like tv therapy on housewives where i'm like sure

Speaker 13 talk about it if you will

Speaker 15 i definitely wouldn't put it past emily to like slip him a couple extra hundred bucks to like emily was egging her own house she is capable of anything oh wow yeah

Speaker 1 that's so true but we did have Kiki Monique come in and be like hey she told me this so it's a little bit of a game of like who do you believe Kiki Gretchen Katie but it's like I believe that Gretchen told Katie this I believe that Katie repeated it not thinking I mean obviously like that's sensitive information I don't know how this conversation came about like if this was just loosely given out because they said that Gretchen brought it up out of nowhere that if she was just like oh my god yeah in this one time like if she just thought this was like flippant information that like close friends or insiders would know, how would she know unless it was said, do not repeat?

Speaker 1 And then this whole like Slade calling and whatnot, then I'm like, so did you already have this conversation with Kiki Monique and then come to find out or right before filming this season?

Speaker 1 Like, I need a timeline. I need receipts.
I need Heather Gay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 It felt shitty that she repeated it, but I agree. I feel like Gretchen said it.

Speaker 5 That's what I'm receiving. And I'm new, but I'm like, based on watching it, I'm like, no, that's what feels like happened.

Speaker 7 And she shouldn't have told that, especially to a blogger.

Speaker 2 I think we nailed it.

Speaker 9 Well, if you ask Kiki Monique, she is definitely not a blogger. She's a journalist.

Speaker 13 A journalist. Okay.

Speaker 9 I think we talked about this last week. I think Katie has told a few lies in her day.
And

Speaker 9 I think that seems to be clear. I think she talks to bloggers and she talks to other people in this space and she gossips a little bit.
And yes, I think she is frustrated as the rookie.

Speaker 9 I think she's doing what she thought everyone does.

Speaker 9 And apparently there are some how-tos and and how to not do the blogger world and i think these women are piling on katie and i think katie's truth is i'm not the only one lying so to speak yeah and i think that's why i think that's why she's standing firm with what she's saying but she like she's clearly like not telling the truth about like gossiping about gretchen i think it's just kind of like she's being put in a situation where anything that she's saying is being yeah used against her in a way that they don't about the intention they don't care yeah they're treating her like she is the first person to ever gossip with kiki monique well and that's the other thing too to natalie's point last week where it was just like nobody is commenting on how quickly gina had that number to pull up like it's just like you all have journalists numbers you all have bloggers numbers in your phone it's the ecosystem i would have to send a dm and hope you open it

Speaker 9 yeah they they flew past heather heather being called out for lying about the paparazzi yeah it was katie's one win and they didn't even give her that.

Speaker 13 They didn't.

Speaker 1 But then Gina passed her question about the real estate context that Heather didn't care about but needed to ask it.

Speaker 9 Not

Speaker 9 Jen being, and honestly, follow your gut, Jen, you know?

Speaker 9 Yeah. You're worried about marrying Ryan.

Speaker 18 Ryan.

Speaker 10 But she trusts Katie, which, but then doesn't stand up for her. It's very interesting.
I don't believe this test.

Speaker 1 I don't either.

Speaker 10 It's adding more confusion to the pod.

Speaker 1 I was like, Tamara even figured out how to like get around it where she was like, well, I answered yes. And here's my long paragraph as to why I answered the way that I did.

Speaker 15 I mean, I'm definitely frustrated with Shannon and Tamra because

Speaker 27 they,

Speaker 15 they literally asked Gretchen, what, a week ago, if she went to the hospital and she said yes.

Speaker 15 And so now that she's sitting there and she's on the lie detector test being like, did you go to the hospital? And her saying no, and then passing that, why did not

Speaker 15 Shannon Tamara weren't like, uh, wait a minute, bitch, you told us last week that you did go to the hospital?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's what we're saying, where it's like, I feel like justice for Katie a little bit because I'm like, we're sitting here finding out all of these lies that are being told that have been told for seasons, for years.

Speaker 1 And you guys are supposed to be close best friends, but we're all just like, let's attack this one new girl. Yeah.

Speaker 10 And it's also like, you have Tamara in her interview being like, well, Gretchen is a known liar. And it's like, you're not going to say that to defend fucking Katie?

Speaker 15 Like, I feel like Tamara's going to wait and use this in a couple weeks, you know?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's got it in her back pocket.

Speaker 9 Well, I mean, you know, be careful what you wish for because when you take the subject of your vitriol out of the equation, it only maybe puts a target on you.

Speaker 9 So it'll be interesting, interesting to see which of the women are going to regret not having Katie on this trip.

Speaker 10 Yeah, if you can't project everything onto her,

Speaker 10 you have to deal with your own.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Tamara hasn't been kind of defending Katie in the comments, if you've seen.

Speaker 13 Oh, really?

Speaker 8 Or like just interacting with her. There was a post that Katie did wearing the outfit from this episode saying like another amazing outfit wasted.

Speaker 8 And then like Tamara responded, like, you look gorgeous or something like that. So like,

Speaker 9 I will be very frustrated if Katie is removed from this cast after this season.

Speaker 10 Me too.

Speaker 1 It just wouldn't be fun for anybody to join this cast if this is what you're going to do every time a new person joins and plays the game.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, you're going to have a really boring season of. Emily and Gina making TikToks if that's what we're going to end up doing.
Yeah.

Speaker 13 Oh my God, the TikToks.

Speaker 9 Gina killed the trend.

Speaker 10 Emily killing a goldfish.

Speaker 14 I missed that.

Speaker 10 You missed her killing the goldfish.

Speaker 10 She put goldfish in her centerpiece for the

Speaker 10 party, and then she was like, a couple of them die.

Speaker 15 Goldfish die if you like look at them the wrong way, though.

Speaker 10 Okay, but still, I was like, all this for a lie, for a party that's a scheme for a lie detector?

Speaker 8 Fish can feel pain, they proved it.

Speaker 13 Goldfish. Anyway.

Speaker 18 Not on my bench, but they are fish.

Speaker 15 Aren't they like known to be the dumbbell?

Speaker 9 I never thought they couldn't feel pain.

Speaker 15 Oh, I think goldfish are known to be like the dumbest fish, right?

Speaker 10 Okay, but just because they're dumb.

Speaker 13 I mean, I don't know that.

Speaker 9 I know a lot of dumb people who feel pain.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 15 Well, that does it for Real Housewives of Orange County. Let's move on to the Real Housewives of Miami.
If you missed the last episode, here is your rapid recap.

Speaker 15 The girls go to Maribela for the day, but before that, Gertie's very cool glasses finally answer the aged old question. What would John Lennon look like if he was a diva who ate?

Speaker 15 The Sojay air drama continues. And baby, there is a plane.
Alexia and Marisol just don't want to fly on it. This will cause an issue.

Speaker 15 And Marabella, Lisa serves Jennifer Coolidge in White Lotus, wore sunglasses, met a gay guy, got divorced. Julia asked the gay guy Lisa met to be her kid's godfather.

Speaker 15 Marisol confuses Stephanie by being nice and throwing her a cool birthday party. Also, Stephanie is mad at Alexia because she likes Marisol more than her plane, and they got into a huge fight.

Speaker 15 Stephanie comes to the realization that Marisol is the issue in her eyes and asks Jesus to not let her bleed out because there are a lot of knives in her back. Kiki and Adriana make up.

Speaker 15 Overall, what do you guys think of Marisol and Richard, darling Dick Branson, the Virgin Airlines guy, talk about? Find out next week of the Royal Housewives of Miami.

Speaker 9 Yeah, Charles Branson.

Speaker 9 That was a flexible

Speaker 9 friends with Dick Branson.

Speaker 10 Dick Branton. Darling Dick Branson.

Speaker 9 I want to rewind a little bit back to OC. Sorry.
But like I was during the lie detector test,

Speaker 9 they asked Gina if her boyfriend had big balls.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 15 A known, they keep talking about his balls every episode.

Speaker 7 Yeah, there's a

Speaker 10 she had like the centerpiece.

Speaker 9 Are you guys aware of your man-sized balls?

Speaker 2 Out of curiosity, yeah, Mary.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 10 well, actually, speaking of balls, um, actually, so my cat, George Michael, I got him fixed, and then when I took him to the vet, he was like, no, no, no, no, literally, right?

Speaker 10 So, I take him to the vet a while ago to like get him a checkup, and it's the vet where I got him fixed at. And the vet goes, he like cups his balls, and he goes, Did you get him fixed?

Speaker 10 And I was like, yeah, here.

Speaker 10 And he goes, oh, they might still be swollen. And I was like, okay.
And I was, and he was like, it's nothing to worry about. So, hey, Travis, I understand you.

Speaker 4 Travis's balls just meet someone swollen.

Speaker 9 I just never really realized that something, like, like, have you ever paid attention to the size of Connor's balls?

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 13 Okay.

Speaker 15 Susie, did you pay attention to Justin's balls?

Speaker 13 They're there.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I feel like there's nothing out of the ordinary, but like, you know,

Speaker 16 a little curiosity.

Speaker 1 You know, from the last pair that you did it. Exactly.
Like, there's a size difference.

Speaker 9 I feel like if you notice, really? Like, I didn't know you think the ball size was something you ladies were.

Speaker 15 Well, I wouldn't necessarily even say, like, size.

Speaker 5 Like, I'm not necessarily noticing like size. I feel like I've had consistently like

Speaker 17 normal balls

Speaker 5 throughout my life. So I've never.
Yeah, I've, yeah, I guess I might have a type.

Speaker 5 No, I've never noticed anything crazy anywhere, but I think if there were abnormally large balls, I would notice that.

Speaker 15 I definitely make sure I stay up to date with the size of,

Speaker 15 not necessarily the size of Nick's balls, but my sister is in a marriage and her husband's 18 years older than her, and she's, you know, a little bit older than me.

Speaker 15 So she's always warning me about the balls and the sagginess that does occur. And so I just like to keep up with like, where, you know, where are they sitting?

Speaker 15 Have they dropped?

Speaker 9 So wait, you are, you are judging how well I'm aging by how my balls are looking and I didn't even know this.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Aren't you happy you asked?

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 15 I'm doing a lot down there.

Speaker 5 Yeah, men should talk about this more. Yeah.

Speaker 15 When I'm down there, I'm thinking about a lot, you know? Did I notice something I would tell them?

Speaker 10 I feel like if women have to deal with comments about their boobs sagging, men should have to deal with comments about their balls.

Speaker 9 By all means,

Speaker 9 shame away.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 9 I was just like,

Speaker 9 this is all very insightful for me.

Speaker 15 Like, I have to think about something, you know?

Speaker 17 I'm making the grocery list.

Speaker 15 I'm checking the length of the balls.

Speaker 13 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Asking if they touch the water yet.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 9 Any ball fetishes in the room?

Speaker 18 No. No.

Speaker 13 Not nobody.

Speaker 16 Nobody.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Maybe Gina. Maybe that's where this is coming from.

Speaker 10 Maybe Gina.

Speaker 11 Okay. No, thank you.

Speaker 10 So Miami?

Speaker 9 Miami.

Speaker 14 Just balls flying past my eyes.

Speaker 5 No, I'm picturing a lot in my head.

Speaker 17 I'm not going going to lie. A lot going on.
Yeah.

Speaker 13 A lot going on up there.

Speaker 15 Miami.

Speaker 23 Okay, you got Gertie's glasses.

Speaker 27 Yes.

Speaker 10 Square, circle inside.

Speaker 13 Pretty cool.

Speaker 13 I'm not going to lie.

Speaker 23 I liked them.

Speaker 10 I thought she looked great.

Speaker 9 Okay. Shout out, Gertie.

Speaker 1 I do have to ask, though, Lisa was really funny to me this episode because I'm like, she lived on Star Island. I'm pretty positive.
Like, I'm like, she's been around rich people.

Speaker 1 Why is she acting like this is the first time that she's been around rich people?

Speaker 15 Did y'all see her in the back of the plane as soon as like the lights got off, turned off, the music came on? She like ran from the back with like her Instagram story out to like film some content.

Speaker 10 Well, she also did just finalize her divorce. So maybe she was like, this is my divorce area.
I'm on a private jet. Like, I'm going to this island.

Speaker 17 That's fair.

Speaker 10 And meeting this gay guy.

Speaker 1 I need to be elegant.

Speaker 13 Elegant. Yeah.

Speaker 9 You know, I mean, like, can you go, can you be an influencer and not a PJ and not take that content?

Speaker 22 I'm like, can I eat food and not

Speaker 4 literally?

Speaker 15 Can I get a coffee and not take a picture of the top of the coffee?

Speaker 9 Susie, have you been on a PJ?

Speaker 5 I've never been on a PJ.

Speaker 9 No, nor have I.

Speaker 5 No. Tira?

Speaker 21 Yes.

Speaker 13 Oh.

Speaker 14 Three. Oh, you're not going to be able to do that.
Just ask me.

Speaker 5 Three. Yeah.

Speaker 13 Can we get a little info on that?

Speaker 1 Friend's birthday party

Speaker 1 to Mexico after the pandemic.

Speaker 1 So it was a flying commercial and we were covet tested uh a bachelorette a bachelorette and i think one more trip to mexico wow iconic okay sierra is bougie yeah i love that very bougie bougie isn't my aesthetic in case you guys are wondering i haven't been on her pj i know that's really surprising

Speaker 13 I'm shocked. Yeah.

Speaker 8 We got a clarification on Ratchet versus Ratchet. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Wretched. That is not what she meant to say.

Speaker 8 Honestly, it kind of sounds the same when she says it.

Speaker 15 It does.

Speaker 1 I really loved Stephanie in the beginning of this season, but like, she really is kind of turning me off with this, like, throwing the plane and then being shocked that people are upset about her throwing her plane around.

Speaker 1 Like, she literally did exactly that. They said, you're a little bossy.
And then she flipped on Julia in the car on the way to the airport being like.

Speaker 1 Well, then you don't, I'm not bossy enough for you to not come on my plane. And it's like, when you throw those things around, like it doesn't make anybody want to hang out with you.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't, you shouldn't be holding this over somebody's head.

Speaker 15 Right. It's like, if she's going to continue, if she's going to bring up the fact that I was on her PJ for the next year, like, I'm just not going to go because I don't want to hear about it.

Speaker 1 But yeah, like, and I get why Alexia and Marisol were like, I passed. It's like they're like Larsistic defending her, being like, she spent $40,000 and you guys aren't acting grateful.

Speaker 1 And it's like, she didn't have to. These women are on a provo show.
They can get commercial flights. They can fly first class.

Speaker 1 They don't need to be on your private jet, but the way that you're throwing it around, like as if it's like your, your, your player card,

Speaker 1 it's, it's not, it's not cute that's just petty pippin petty

Speaker 10 pippin well then also you have like stephanie

Speaker 2 she did

Speaker 10 she did well you also have like stephanie

Speaker 10 being so taken aback that marisol would have thrown her this like nice birthday party and acting as if that's a dig towards her

Speaker 10 I just don't, I'm like,

Speaker 13 what?

Speaker 1 She makes it make sense. Marisol's being two-faced, essentially, because she thinks that she's talking shit.
And that's what I'm saying. Where I'm like, Stephanie kind of like added in.

Speaker 10 But Stephanie's also being kind of two-phased. Like, they all are.
That's their housewives.

Speaker 1 Because I'm saying, I don't think Marisol's even talking shit about her either, but she's kind of making it out like as if it's like, oh, now Marisol's the problem because she's infected the well with Alexia to not want to come on my plane.

Speaker 10 And in reality, Alexia, Alexia just doesn't fuck with you.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 It is confusing though, because Marty Soul planned the birthday party before,

Speaker 8 and then she was mad at her.

Speaker 8 So for Stephanie, she's like, wait, but she's mad at me, but there's this birthday party and she doesn't know the logistics of when it was planned and I'm kind of so it does look two-phase is it a birthday party or is it like a birthday performance that we all the whole cast ended up coming by on horse carriage and performance for a two-second clip of the show yeah

Speaker 10 but I will say props to um stephanie for praying to Jesus Christ asking about um

Speaker 10 not letting her bleed out because there are knives in her back.

Speaker 23 That really made me laugh.

Speaker 10 I was like, that is the Lord's Prayer, if I've ever heard it.

Speaker 8 The ending argument scene was crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't even know what was happening. I feel like the camera guys weren't even like, they didn't know who to follow.
All of a sudden, I got Lisa jumping in, being like lumpy, bumpy.

Speaker 1 And I was like, what's the rest of the sentence?

Speaker 8 No, the cameraman that was following Kiki and Gertie, they knew what to follow.

Speaker 13 Kiki and Gurdy are like, this is crazy. They said, now that's ratchet.

Speaker 1 I think it was a great episode. And I'm really interested to see

Speaker 1 them go to Richard Burnson's, I'm Suming Island.

Speaker 9 That is crazy. I love that he's a housewives fan.

Speaker 1 We love an honorary housewife.

Speaker 9 It was definitely very white lotus coated this episode.

Speaker 2 Oh, it was. I loved it.

Speaker 1 Do you like my beautiful, my beautiful men?

Speaker 14 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 9 Well, up next, we have Jesse Hildebrandt, the niece of Jodi Hildebrandt, who is now serving time for some horrific crimes that she committed with Ruby Frankie.

Speaker 9 I'm sure many of you have heard of this story. And if you haven't, you are not going to miss this interview.
Just a heads up, trigger warning.

Speaker 9 Obviously, we are covering some very sensitive topics, including child abuse and things like that.

Speaker 9 So, you know, it's definitely a bit of a tone shifter of this interview, but certainly a very fascinating story hearing from Jesse, who is also a survivor and obviously has, you know, continues to work through this, has worked through it.

Speaker 9 It's very powerful. And we really appreciate them taking the time.
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Speaker 9 Jesse, thank you for joining us. It's really a pleasure.

Speaker 9 Thank you for taking the time.

Speaker 19 No, it's a pleasure, definitely.

Speaker 9 I guess this first question, and obviously, you know, this is a very sensitive topic and a very traumatic story. And again, we just want to express our appreciation watching this documentary.

Speaker 9 And I'm sure it is the case for anyone anyone who's familiar with this story who watches this documentary. Even for people not involved, it's very triggering.

Speaker 9 It's very uncomfortable to watch because there's just so much horrific abuse. And anytime children are involved, it's just really hard, obviously, to digest.

Speaker 9 Obviously, you are one of these victims who had to deal with. Jodi's abuse.
A very difficult story to watch.

Speaker 9 It's just very triggering for even people like Nellie and I, who are new parents, anyone involved, but obviously for you, the real victim, victim, one of the victims of Jodi, what was the reason for you wanting to participate in this docuseries that obviously must have been, you know, difficult to participate and talk about and obviously re-watch?

Speaker 19 There are, I think there are a few different reasons. I think probably the main reason though is I felt that in truly understanding

Speaker 19 how and why something to this

Speaker 19 magnitude and horror happened, you really have to understand Jodi.

Speaker 19 And in order to understand Jodi, I think there's so much unfortunate insight that I could offer because she is someone that is so seemingly like, I mean, if you saw the series, in the beginning, she fooled so many people because her messaging is rather innocuous.

Speaker 19 And if anything, it's rather empowering. And so it's like she lures people in.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 for it to result in something so heinous and so heartbreaking, I think a lot of people are left confused as to how and why and like

Speaker 19 who in the right mind would fall for this.

Speaker 19 But the thing about narcissistic, psychopathic trauma, abuse is that

Speaker 19 it's intentionally

Speaker 19 made so it's like

Speaker 19 to be fallen for, you know, it's it's it's um very subtle, it's very

Speaker 19 what's the word? Little, it's like very little by little. They don't come out swinging.
It's not the first thing isn't like the heinous abuse. It's like first

Speaker 19 feels very empowering. It feels like she sees you, she gets you, she understands you, she sees the pain.
So I felt like I had some insight into her and her methods that maybe

Speaker 19 other people

Speaker 19 could benefit from.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it was interesting that you said that. Like one of the takeaways I got from watching it, you know, even on this show, I'm not a therapist.
I'm not any type of professional. And

Speaker 9 we have an audience and sometimes they ask us questions and we'll talk about relationships. And sure, you know, I'm, I get therapy.
My wife and I do couple therapy. We learn from that experience.

Speaker 9 And just watching this documentary. For example, you heard Jodi talk about boundaries, right? You talk, talk about, you know, the importance of that.

Speaker 9 You know, the individual sets their boundaries and then communicates those. And those, that's correct.

Speaker 9 You know, it's just like, these are very, like you said, innocuous, like seemingly, oh, this person knows the language of healthy behaviors and things like that.

Speaker 19 She's a professional.

Speaker 9 Yeah. It almost kind of gave me this icky feeling because while I'm always very careful to, hey, I'm not a therapist.
You know, this is my opinion.

Speaker 9 I am in no way, you know, take it or leave it type of thing.

Speaker 9 It really just goes to show the power we all have have when people come to us in a very vulnerable state and just how scary it can be and how easy it might be to influence someone in a negative way.

Speaker 9 And it's, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, uh, it's really scary to think about these very

Speaker 9 positive messages and how they can be manipulated in such a toxic way.

Speaker 19 Yeah, especially I feel like within this demographic of people, you know, a lot of the clientele may be like disempowered, disenfranchised women.

Speaker 19 And within the context of the church, the Mormon church, you know, telling a woman that she's empowered and has, you know, she's allowed to have boundaries, especially, I feel like the word boundary is something that oftentimes is misunderstood.

Speaker 19 And the way that even in the docuseries, she says, you know, a boundary is something that you do. It's not about the other person.
Like, you're not supposed to manipulate the other person.

Speaker 19 But it also is quite interesting and disturbing to me that like, I feel like two of the words that she uses so often in this like binary that she presents is that there's truth and there's distortion.

Speaker 19 And you're either in truth or you're in distortion. And yet her whole method is taking truth and distorting it for

Speaker 19 manipulative purposes. And so she tells on herself.
continuously and constantly throughout the series and throughout her like messaging is like distortion, truth.

Speaker 15 and that's all she is doing did you in real time like know what was happening was wrong or was there just so much brainwashing and you were at such a young age that you were like i honestly like i don't know i had no idea i i i i thought what was happening was

Speaker 19 uh i mean she's my aunt um she's a professional the church is promoting and supporting and she's using the language and the religion that I was conditioned and brought up and She's using that same language and those same principles.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 the amount of emotional, spiritual, and mental manipulation that's going on. And then I'm a child, so I have no idea.
And

Speaker 19 I was like suffering from pretty bad religious OCD. So I was like very much a perfectionist.
I was, like, I deeply, deeply believed in the Mormon church. I deeply believed in the Book of Mormon.

Speaker 19 And so I very much believed that

Speaker 19 the reason i wasn't getting well and like that i wasn't getting fixed was my own shortcomings it wasn't i wasn't praying hard enough i wasn't believing enough i wasn't being forthcoming enough i wasn't confessing correctly i wasn't asking correctly and so i 100 believed this and even when i left Jodi because i ran away multiple times and then finally i ran away for good like i i ended up in a a homeless shelter in Salt Lake City under a fake name.

Speaker 19 Even doing that, I believed that I was failing. Like I was so weak, I couldn't withstand

Speaker 19 God's test and that I was a failure and that everything that happened to me was because of that.

Speaker 9 That's so tragic to hear. Yeah.
So even in. in even in your escape and running away, it sounds like it didn't feel like you escaping.
It's almost like you internalized it as quitting.

Speaker 19 Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
And I think that very much aligns with a lot of people,

Speaker 19 like a lot of the conditioning that the LDS church instills in its members of like, you have, even though it's proposed as like you're saved by grace, it's very much, that's, it doesn't, it doesn't really land that way in practice.

Speaker 19 Like you are very much having to try harder, try harder, try harder, try harder. And if it's not working, it's because you're not trying hard enough.

Speaker 9 It's interesting with this doc really focusing on Jodi. I'm curious.
I'm very, my wife has been following the story since the beginning.

Speaker 9 I've certainly been aware of it, but the focus has really been really up until this point, Ruby.

Speaker 9 Obviously, she's the YouTube star. She's the quote unquote famous one.
And certainly

Speaker 9 she has, you know, deserves to be where she is right now. And she also is guilty of some very horrific things.

Speaker 9 But was it any, in any way frustrating for you to see more of the attention go to Ruby and her crimes because of her infamy and fame and her celebrity, where it almost felt like Jodi was kind of almost getting away with it because she wasn't the focus of that that so that that Ruby was getting?

Speaker 19 No, exactly. I um I mean, I understood.
I understood why the focus was on Ruby. It was, you know,

Speaker 19 she was the, you know, famous one. They were her children.

Speaker 19 There was a,

Speaker 19 you know, documentation of her abuse over the years.

Speaker 19 Like, by no means is Ruby, like, she's very much accountable for this, but just knowing what, who and what Jodi is and knowing that, like, all of this method and this methodology is from the mouth of Jodi.

Speaker 19 This is like, Jodi is the mastermind here. Ruby may like, this would never have happened without Jodi.

Speaker 19 Like, yes, there would probably have been, you know, some fallout from Ruby putting her children online and being in, like, there's like definitely going to be psychological effects and maybe some abuse from there.

Speaker 19 But the level of which this abuse was happening would not have happened without Jodi. I fully believe that.

Speaker 19 And so the focus on Ruby, especially like on Kevin, and like everyone being like, where was Kevin? Where was Kevin? Like, how could, how could anyone do this to their child?

Speaker 19 And it's like this missing link, this like puzzle piece that finally shows the entire picture. It's like, Jodi.
And really to understand Jodi, you need to understand

Speaker 19 the culture, the foundation, the structure of the Mormon church. And without those two components, Ruby doesn't really make sense.
You just think, oh, she's just a psychopath. But really, it's.

Speaker 19 It's if you really want to understand this, you really need to understand Jodi.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it was interesting watching. To your point, it paints a clear picture of, you know, lack of a better word, the evilness that Jodi brought into this picture.

Speaker 9 There was one particular scene in the docu series, though, that I found really alarming. And it was when they were talking about Ruby before Jodi came into the picture.

Speaker 9 And it just, you know, to your point, so it's like, whatever Jodi, you know, to your point, seemed like really capable, you know, she brought this forward into the heinousness that it was.

Speaker 9 But there was a moment when they were showing Ruby about to hit a million subscribers.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And she's in the car car with her children driving, going, I don't know how many miles per hour, watching this, and then losing her shit because she missed the moment of going over a million.

Speaker 9 And it was just like the, the, that's like the, it was sad because like, you know, we're very much involved in this world of online influencing and we're certainly aware of the pitfalls.

Speaker 9 and the narcissistic pull that that brings people away. But it was like, you saw the potential potential of why Ruby was so caught up in it.

Speaker 9 And I, you know, couldn't help but wonder if, you know, they always say, you know, predators are good at finding their prey, so to speak.

Speaker 9 And it was, it's like, it seemed like Jodi saw this kind of person who was so easily manipulated because she, she was so caught up in the fame of being a YouTube star, so much so that she was completely disregarding.

Speaker 9 her girl and children.

Speaker 19 Oh, absolutely. Jodi, I think something that Jodi is like

Speaker 19 unbelievably good at is seeing your weak points.

Speaker 19 When I was living with her, she would do this thing where she would just start throwing out accusations at you or throwing out verbal abuse and then watching for reactions.

Speaker 19 And the moment something hits, she'll drill into that. And she is like truly, like,

Speaker 19 so incredibly good at this. that it's really hard to explain it to people.
And so, yeah, I think like the, the, the potential for Ruby to become what she became was there.

Speaker 19 Like she, she is already this like personality type where like her ego and her fame and like the Ruby show was the most important thing, you know, willing to put all, that's what I'm saying, like there was still like abuse going on,

Speaker 19 but it would have been more, um, it wouldn't have escalated to what it was to the point where it became torture. And like, and I don't use that like lightly, I mean that literally.

Speaker 19 That was the Jodi was the catalyst for that. But no, Jodi saw that.
She saw the potential and she also saw the level of influence that Ruby already had. She's like, oh, Ruby has this massive audience.

Speaker 19 I'm going to use that. I'm going to use this.
She's very, very good at that. And like you said, like predators can smell this from a mile away.

Speaker 15 I'm guessing you saw the arrest online or did you hear about it through like family or friends?

Speaker 19 So I

Speaker 19 was in the middle of moving from Los Angeles to Seattle. Like I was putting boxes into

Speaker 19 my U-Haul and I get this text from my cousin. And she's like, hey, how are you doing with the Jodi news? And I was like,

Speaker 19 what do you mean? Like, what Jodi? What Jody news? And like, my cousin and I, like, I don't really have a close relationship with anyone in my family.

Speaker 19 And so it was just kind of like a, whoa, my cousin texted me. Wait, right.
And then I googled Jodi's name and I, like, I just started hyperventilating and

Speaker 19 basically just like screaming, not screaming, but like being like, oh my God. And I just like fell over.
And luckily my roommate at the time was there and they are like one of my dearest friends.

Speaker 19 They're actually about to visit me in Berlin tomorrow. So they're like,

Speaker 19 they were there and just like held me and breathed through it with me. And I was just in a state of complete shock and disbelief and

Speaker 19 not knowing what way was up and like what was happening was just like, I couldn't process it.

Speaker 15 Did you ever think that she would

Speaker 15 face any repercussions for anything she had done?

Speaker 19 No, I think at one point, yes, when I was younger. So when that, when in

Speaker 19 2012, when her,

Speaker 19 when she was put on probation, there was a Salt Lake Tribune article that was put out that

Speaker 19 I publicly commented on. And I said, Jodi Hildebrandt is, this is my aunt.
She's a monster.

Speaker 19 And I said, I promise you, this is not the last time you'll hear about Jodi Hildebrandt. And unfortunately, that article has been like since archived.
And I can't find that response.

Speaker 19 But my family went crazy when they, when that, and Jodi like lost it. I found out years later that she like dropped her son off at my grandparents and left the country after I made that

Speaker 19 comment.

Speaker 12 And,

Speaker 19 but I think for my own well-being, I had to kind of put to rest the idea of any sort of,

Speaker 19 I don't know,

Speaker 19 vindication on my part. I kind of just like had to give up on that because

Speaker 19 even within my own family, like there was no accountability, like my parents or anything. There's no accountability.
There's no,

Speaker 19 like, even admitting it or

Speaker 19 like I wasn't even allowed to talk about it.

Speaker 19 And so, for my own mental health and sanity, I had to just like kind of consciously and subconsciously just kind of give up hope that there would ever be any sort of, I don't know, hurt being held to any sort of accountability.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it was particularly tough to watch when you told your story, the participation your parents and your grandparents played.

Speaker 9 Whether they realized what they were doing or they were caught up in their own religious trauma. How have you processed that? And is it just,

Speaker 9 you know, you mentioned you don't have a relationship with them, but do you separate, you know, the monster that is Jodi with the involvement your family played a role?

Speaker 9 Or do you kind of lump it all together knowing that like, you know, there was a, there was a part in that conversation where it's like nature versus nurture. It's just like, what happened to Jodi?

Speaker 9 You know, what abuse, did she experience something?

Speaker 9 Or is this someone just like, is there a sociopathic, narcissistic person that, you know, maybe has always been there and she and it found its way to reveal itself? How do you process that?

Speaker 19 Yeah, I mean, that's kind of been the reason the question of the last, you know, 16 years.

Speaker 19 I think, at least at this point in my life, I think that it's both nurture and nature. I think Jodi had the predisposition.

Speaker 19 for this,

Speaker 19 you know, delusions of grandeur, narcissism. I think that was probably like there already.
And then that was exacerbated by religion, religious shame,

Speaker 19 and then potentially trauma, probably trauma, just the snowball effect of everything in her life that led her to that point. But I mean, it's, it's hard.

Speaker 19 I mean, there's been phases of my life that, like, I'm related to her. And I've had moments where I'm like, is this gene in me?

Speaker 19 And something that I feel like with people that have experienced narcissistic abuse and psychopathic abuse is they make you feel like you're the psychopath and you're the narcissist.

Speaker 19 And I remember thinking, even while I was there, that like I, I was the bad one. You know, she made me believe that like

Speaker 19 the reason why I was depotate,

Speaker 19 according to her, was that every word that came out of my mouth was a lie. And like, that literally I like I was so good at manipulating and lying that

Speaker 19 i didn't even know when i was doing it and so i like to protect everyone we had to put duct tape on my mouth and i believed it i was like oh so then i so it took a it took so many years and there's still moments where i have this moment like like she was a musician i'm a musician she's a therapist i'm interested in psychology like there were some parallels in our lives where like when I would notice those things, it would really scare me.

Speaker 19 And I've had to like, I mean, I've had a lot of therapy, a lot of therapy to help me through these, uh, these kind of thought loops and whatnot.

Speaker 19 Um, so there's that, and then, you know, she's my dad's sister, and so then it's like, well, is this being in my dad? And like, like,

Speaker 19 my dad is, I would not say is a very empathetic person at all. I think that empathy is something he really

Speaker 19 doesn't possess very much of.

Speaker 19 And so then I'm like, is this just a like a family trait? And it's been exacerbated in Jodi. Like,

Speaker 19 yeah, it's to process this.

Speaker 19 I think with, I'm not being very fluid in my response here. There's a lot of parts.

Speaker 12 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 19 But I think, at least in regards to my mother,

Speaker 19 I have a lot of,

Speaker 19 often I have a lot of grace for her. You know, it's not all of the time, but often

Speaker 19 I find myself being like, okay, she was born in the 60s to a Mormon family of like seven kids, you know, raised in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Speaker 19 She married a lawyer thinking her life was going to be this certain thing, and then it wasn't.

Speaker 19 Were either of you raised in the Mormon church?

Speaker 9 No, but I was raised.

Speaker 9 I have 10 brothers and sisters, very Catholic. I had.

Speaker 9 generally positive relationship with religion. That being said, fully aware of the shame.
I'm not that religious anymore.

Speaker 9 Thankfully, I didn't experience many of the traumas that people in both Catholic and

Speaker 9 so I'm very familiar with the shame. The shame and the intensity and the dogma of religions like both.

Speaker 19 For your listeners and for you guys, I invite you. There's a really amazing content creator named Alyssa Grenfell.

Speaker 19 And she goes into a lot of like the detail about the ritualistic aspects of the Mormon church. She goes into into like what happens in the temple.
What are these like covenants that you're like

Speaker 19 really gets into the nitty-gritty of how the church hooks themselves into your psyche and your subconscious and into your life?

Speaker 19 And when my parents went through the temple back in the back in the day, they would have had to make a covenant promising they do these simple like these motions through their neck, through their chest, and through

Speaker 19 their stomach of promising that if they talk about it or break these covenants, that they'll kill themselves. And so,

Speaker 19 the level of psychological control that the Mormon church has on its people, especially, I think, with the women. Like,

Speaker 19 if I had been born at the time my mom had been born, gone through the things that she had gone through,

Speaker 19 I probably would have ended up very much like her.

Speaker 19 And this lack of feeling like you have any power or, or like the self-doubt, and the self-hatred and the self,

Speaker 19 like the dealing with the shame.

Speaker 19 I mean, with like evangelical Orthodox religions, you know, it's very punitive. It's very much like if you, it's very black and white, you're good or you're bad.

Speaker 19 And if you feel guilt, that must be because you're bad. And if you're bad, you must be punished.
And so there's no real gray area to process

Speaker 19 fucking up or sorry, can I I swear?

Speaker 21 Yeah, messing up.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 unfortunately, in my mom's case,

Speaker 19 making a mistake to such,

Speaker 19 I mean, like,

Speaker 19 like, I know my mom like cares about me in her way. Like, I know that she loves me, but doesn't have, I don't think, the ability to look at herself.

Speaker 19 I don't think for her to like look at and admit to herself that she not only allowed for this to happen, but participated in the creation of that abuse.

Speaker 19 Like, I think it would kill her.

Speaker 19 And so she has just

Speaker 19 put on the blinders, which is also very much a thing in the Mormon religion. You're supposed to just put on those blinders.
Like, don't ask the questions.

Speaker 19 Don't look into the, you know, the skeletons in the closet. Don't ask why.
black people weren't allowed to have the priesthood or about polygamy. Don't ask those things.
Just put on the blinders.

Speaker 19 I think my mom is very much a product of that. And

Speaker 19 it's just so unfortunate that she continues to choose or sit in that reality.

Speaker 15 Do you think that there's any world in which your siblings or your parents will watch this docu series?

Speaker 19 One of my brothers and his wife,

Speaker 19 I would say I have the most contact with them.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 19 And they seem to be the most open and the most willing to acknowledge. Like my brother, Madison, and his wife reached out to me after Jodi was arrested and apologized to me.

Speaker 19 And they're the only ones that apologized to me at all for anything. And my brother apologized that he had invited Jodi to his wedding and like subjected me to be around her.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 you know, like, my sister apologized that it happened, but like,

Speaker 19 I think it's really common for people to,

Speaker 19 there's like this weird amnesia that I think happens with a lot of people when they like apologize for the event or like the thing, like they said that it happened, but then they can't look at their participation or like how they also caused harm.

Speaker 19 But again, I think that just goes back to like high demand religion and shame. And

Speaker 19 that's something I wish the docuseries would have gone more into

Speaker 19 is

Speaker 19 understanding how Mormonism is like the bedrock to this. Like you don't have Jodi without Mormonism and you don't have Ruby without Jodi.
So I really wish they could have.

Speaker 19 I don't know why they didn't. I'm the Mormon church is their net worth is like $293 billion.

Speaker 19 And they have like a whole, you know, law. they have like hundreds of lawyers.
So I'm certain that's probably

Speaker 19 played a big part of it. To me, it all goes back to the Mormon church.

Speaker 15 What do you remember? You know, obviously, you told the story of how

Speaker 15 the dishes and how you didn't want to do them. And you went into the basement and then

Speaker 15 you realized that your parents and your and your family had left you there.

Speaker 15 At what point did you, were you able to tell your parents or your siblings the abuse that you were going through?

Speaker 19 I was already, I had left. At no point during my stay with Jodi was I ever, I wasn't allowed to talk to my siblings.
Also, like my parents didn't tell anyone what was happening.

Speaker 19 So my siblings also didn't really know what was going on.

Speaker 19 My friends, I wasn't allowed to speak to any of my friends. My friends

Speaker 19 had no clue. They thought like they were like, when I finally came back to California after, you know, Jodi and homelessness, I found out that my, like, some people thought I was dead.

Speaker 19 People thought I had gotten pregnant and that I was sent away. People thought I'd gone to rehab.
They had no idea. And I, I lost pretty much all of my friends because of this.

Speaker 19 They were, you know, upset. I mean, I was a teenager, so like, and they were teenagers, so they didn't really understand.
But no, I, I, it wasn't until afterwards.

Speaker 19 There was a moment after I had gotten out and I had been found by a detective on the, like, when I was homeless, um,

Speaker 19 that my family wanted me to go get a physical to make sure that i was healthy because when you're a homeless teenage girl things unfortunately happen

Speaker 19 and i found out during the appointment that it was actually said by jodi

Speaker 19 and this doctor

Speaker 19 was one of her one of her clients

Speaker 19 And he was telling me, one, he told me that I had no soul. Literally, he was like, he set up this premise as to like how people can have

Speaker 19 problems with their soul, but I don't qualify because I don't have a soul. Like a medical doctor told me that I didn't have a soul.
And that, like, thankfully Jodi and like brought in Jodi.

Speaker 19 And I was like, so stunned by all of this that by the time I got out of the doctor, my grandma, my grandma had taken me, I just like lost it and erupted. And I was like, so beyond shocked and angry.

Speaker 19 And then

Speaker 19 it like it didn't, I just couldn't get away from it. And my parents tried to get me back in with Jodi multiple times after everything.
They tried to like

Speaker 19 like lie to me and get me into like going to dinner with her and like get it didn't just end like it continued as well.

Speaker 19 And then they also tried to get me to do her connections classroom like a couple years later. They were like, we did it.
It helped us so much. You should do this.

Speaker 19 And I'm like, are you out of your absolute goddamn mind? Like,

Speaker 19 so it's, it didn't just

Speaker 19 to be able to tell them, like, I remember one time I was telling my brother, he worked and lived with her for years afterwards and basically built Connections Classroom.

Speaker 14 Oh, wow.

Speaker 19 And I don't think he's legally allowed to talk about it

Speaker 19 as in like Jodie fashion. I think there were some NDAs and

Speaker 19 whatnot signed.

Speaker 19 He participated in that for a long time. And I remember going to him like in tears, listing, like, did you know this and this and this? And hiring me up, putting me in a car, making me run,

Speaker 19 locking me in rooms, duct taping me, starving me, like, did you know this? And he just looked at me and was just like, that was your experience, not mine.

Speaker 15 So heartbreaking.

Speaker 19 There was just no.

Speaker 19 But again, like, this is the thing that is so

Speaker 19 Jodi is

Speaker 19 so good at

Speaker 19 disqualifying you in the minds of others. So I was this angry, rageful teenager.
And Jodi, you know, would tell my family, oh, Jesse's going to tell you this. Jesse is going to tell you that.

Speaker 19 Jesse's just angry. If Jesse tells you that, like, she prepared my family, like completely destroyed my reputation, destroyed any sort of sense of credibility.

Speaker 19 So then when I go and say, Jodi did all of this, they would be like,

Speaker 12 she told me you'd say that. Yep.

Speaker 19 And so, and then I'm angry, which just then reinforces this previous identity of being an angry teenager. And so there's no escaping it.

Speaker 15 It's just a complete circle. Yeah.

Speaker 9 One part that was particular, and you kind of referenced it early, but, you know, as a dad,

Speaker 9 watching Kevin being interviewed in this documentary.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 9 you know, it is. It's hard to process like, how could this man abandon his children,

Speaker 9 even if he didn't realize what was going on? But you seem to have grace for him.

Speaker 9 And certainly the documentary talked about, again, just the power and influence that Jody had and just evilness. And

Speaker 9 they brought in other people to speak to that.

Speaker 9 How do you see it? Do you see him just as a victim? I mean, that's what's so muddy about this is like, you know, where do you draw the line between like Ruby,

Speaker 9 predator, victim? You know, and oftentimes, as is the case, it's very sad, which this documentary alluded to, sometimes the victims end up over time becoming those people.

Speaker 9 How do you view Kevin and some of the other men who

Speaker 9 were ostracized from their family? And as a result, some of this horrific abuse, you know, happened to the children.

Speaker 19 It's so, it's so tough. Like

Speaker 19 the question I have asked myself a lot over, I mean, even before Jody was arrested, is like, how do you balance empathy and accountability?

Speaker 19 Like, how can you hold both of those things at the same time? Should we hold both of those things at the same time? And

Speaker 19 I lean into the position of yes, because I don't really believe. I think our obsession with punishment is actually

Speaker 19 something that can keep keeps our punitive system going. But what's the difference between punishment and accountability? And

Speaker 19 it's difficult to define, I think. Kevin reached out to me when this was all starting and I spoke, we emailed a few times.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 whereas I do

Speaker 19 think I understand

Speaker 19 the state. that Kevin was in, at least as much as I can as an individual.
I don't have children, so I can't understand it from that point, but I understand what Jodi can do to you psychologically and

Speaker 19 spiritually.

Speaker 19 Something that

Speaker 19 Jodi's daughter, like her and I would have talked a few times since,

Speaker 19 and something that she would say that I think is like it encapsulates

Speaker 19 who Jodi is and like the power of Jodi so well is she would say, I can't talk to Jodi

Speaker 19 because if if she told me the sky was yellow, I'd believe her. And that's exactly how it feels.
Jodi, having her hooks in you,

Speaker 19 you have no understanding of what is up, what is down, what is right. Like your barometer for any sort of moral compass is just destroyed.
And your sense of reality is just completely destroyed.

Speaker 19 I remember when I first left, I would have moments of, let's say I was driving a car and I would go go through a green light.

Speaker 19 In my head, I'd be like, was that green? Is it green or is it actually red? And I'm just seeing it as green. I don't know.

Speaker 19 Like that, or I would like be using the restroom and I'm like, am I awake right now? Am I awake or am I asleep? Is this real? Like I would have these,

Speaker 19 and it was constant for so many years of like, I don't know what is real because I thought I understood what was real and then everything was was destroyed.

Speaker 19 And so,

Speaker 19 I mean, granted, I was a child, like a teenager, he's a full-grown man. I'd also, he also, there's also

Speaker 19 he has more to lose, and there's more things that can be manipulated. You know, his wife, his children, and not just his wife and his children.

Speaker 19 You know, in the Mormon religion, you have to be married inside the church, and in order to go to the top level of heaven, you have to be sealed and be temple-worthy in order to do so.

Speaker 19 And so, if Jody's like, your temple recommend is on the line, that's not, that is serious,

Speaker 19 serious,

Speaker 19 that is your eternal salvation on the line. And not only your eternal salvation, but your family's eternal salvation.
And so for him to be like, I'm willing to do anything and everything I need to do.

Speaker 19 And if I need to like go live by myself, because I'm told that I'm I threat my children by a person that is, you know, propped up by the church.

Speaker 19 And And the church denies that she was on any list, but that is complete bullshit. Like complete garbage.
She was 100%

Speaker 19 used by bishops as like recommended by bishops to these people.

Speaker 9 Do you think some of them saw her influence and power and weaponized it?

Speaker 19 Do you that bishops used her power?

Speaker 9 Yeah,

Speaker 9 people in high places of the Mormon church, do you think they recognized her power and influence and what she was capable of and used it as a weapon to you know

Speaker 19 that's a good question it's hard because she's also a woman and women are not supposed to have leadership like not real leadership roles in the church um i honestly think that to me jodi is a cult leader but she just got caught in like the beginnings of the cult and i i think part of the reason why is because she's a woman and

Speaker 19 and if like she were a man in this position within the mormon church i think that there would have been a lot more of that happening i think she was just really good at manipulating bishops And also, like, a lot of the things she used, a lot of the methods, you know, Mormons really want to like distance themselves away from this and say that she's not a real Mormon or like this isn't real Mormon doctrine, but it's just

Speaker 19 to me, that's just cognitive dissonance that it's too uncomfortable to look at how close and how real those methods are, like in relation to the Mormon church.

Speaker 19 So I think that at least like when I was living with her and I would go to my bishop with her and my grandparents, I think she had a lot of power over these bishops and she knew how to manipulate them very, very well.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 15 There was a really heartfelt part of the docuseries when you talked about the family who helped you get to the shelter.

Speaker 15 Is there any part of you that hopes that this docuseries reconnects you with them?

Speaker 19 Yeah,

Speaker 19 that was uh

Speaker 19 yeah, they

Speaker 19 I think about it a lot.

Speaker 19 I think about them a lot.

Speaker 19 And since like thinking about this release and wondering if they know who I am, like wondering if they know who I actually am now.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 yeah,

Speaker 19 I hope they see it.

Speaker 19 Or if they don't see the series, I hope they

Speaker 19 something

Speaker 19 within the, you know, the trial, my name, something.

Speaker 19 but I also look so different. So I'm wondering if they'll even recognize me.
I don't know.

Speaker 19 Yeah,

Speaker 19 I hope so.

Speaker 19 That would be incredible.

Speaker 9 In that same spirit, I want to

Speaker 9 shift the conversation. Obviously, sadly, there are so many victims of abuse and

Speaker 9 all sorts of kinds of

Speaker 9 terrible people have affected people.

Speaker 9 And we spoke to it earlier that

Speaker 9 a very tragic thing of abuse is that, again,

Speaker 9 it can become this never-ending cycle passed down. But you are someone

Speaker 9 who seemingly has stopped that in your life. And you've mentioned you've done a lot of therapy.
You are a survivor in the truest sense. You are a successful tattoo artist.
You're living in Berlin.

Speaker 9 You really got away. And for all the people listening who...

Speaker 9 you know, are victims in some way or another, maybe not as horrific as you experienced, you know, how were you able to do that?

Speaker 9 And what are things you can offer our audience who might be listening to your story and trying to figure out a way out, even if it's just in their own head, right?

Speaker 9 Because so much of this abuse is this kind of literal gaslighting of making you question whether you're worthy of surviving this abuse and worthy of moving on with your life.

Speaker 9 How were you able to do that?

Speaker 9 That I think would be very inspiring for my audience to hear.

Speaker 19 Yeah,

Speaker 19 I guess I want to start by saying

Speaker 19 when I first left Jodi's and was first in like the very beginning stages of recovery, like I definitely participated in harmful behaviors and I definitely perpetuated this onto people around me.

Speaker 19 Like I was not well at all and

Speaker 19 I was not intentionally harmful.

Speaker 19 Like I was definitely never like, I want to go hurt people, but my intention didn't align with my impact i was very like when i in my early like late teens early 20s i was

Speaker 19 not well and barely holding on and i was engaging in self-harm behaviors i was in and out of mental hospitals i

Speaker 19 was in really toxic relationships i

Speaker 19 participated in really toxic behaviors within those relationships. When I say that like, like I was, I was on the road to being a part of that cycle.
And the things that have helped me the most,

Speaker 19 lots and lots of journaling, a lot of self-reflection, I think

Speaker 19 a lot of shadow work,

Speaker 19 being willing to look at the darkest parts of yourself, but also being like having guidance and help in separating those darkest parts from you.

Speaker 19 Like what, what is you and what is your abuser? Like, and for me, like, what is me and what is the indoctrination of the Mormon church?

Speaker 19 What is Jodi? Because I still have Jodi's voice in my head

Speaker 19 often.

Speaker 19 I have nightmares most not.

Speaker 19 Like, I still am, I'm definitely not free of this.

Speaker 19 Somatic therapy was really helpful. There's, you know, EMDR therapy that's specific for PTSD and complex PTSD.
There's parts work. I think that has been really helpful.

Speaker 19 Even if you're just reading these books on your own, obviously having a practitioner is best. But just learning about parts work, there's a really incredible book

Speaker 19 called Nonviolent Communication that I think really, really helps me identify my

Speaker 19 like what what is a feeling? So I think oftentimes we really struggle with that.

Speaker 19 You'll think, oh, I feel like you don't like me, or I feel like, but those aren't feelings, those are interpretations.

Speaker 19 So really getting into like practicing identifying actual feelings and then and then like learning what those feelings are telling my brain. Like, what is my brain making up?

Speaker 19 Or like, what stories are my brain making up? Is my brain making up?

Speaker 19 It's an ongoing process. I by no means am finished.
I'm not like, I was harmed and now I'm healed. And I know that's not really like,

Speaker 19 that's probably not the story your listeners or people that are

Speaker 19 going through this or on the like, you know, are beginning their process of healing

Speaker 19 want to hear. But unfortunately, complex PTSD is a chronic condition.
And like with chronic conditions, oftentimes it is something that will last. years and years and years, if not a lifetime.

Speaker 19 So it's just a matter of like developing these skills over time.

Speaker 19 Something that really helped me was,

Speaker 19 I think with high demand religion and just I think our society in general, we operate within this binary of good versus bad. We moralize everything in our lives from, you know, food to how we look.

Speaker 19 you know, being skinny is good and being like, but it's not just about like good or bad, it's like evil and like we have a moral component added to it. Um,

Speaker 19 so recognizing those moral,

Speaker 19 like the addition of moral moralization to things

Speaker 19 to go into more maybe neutral language with yourself.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 using the terminology goodish

Speaker 19 for me

Speaker 19 was like unlocking a magical door like into a new land. So like I would have so much guilt about doing something.
And I'm like, oh, I'm just bad.

Speaker 19 I'm a bad person. And in the series, you'll hear Ruby saying things like, I'm just, I'm, I'm a good girl.
I'm good. And it's really kind of eerie and strange, like grossly infantilized.

Speaker 19 And I feel like this is a result of this type of binary thinking.

Speaker 19 So instead of saying like, there's good, good people and bad people or, if I was a good person, I would have done this, leaving that language alone and entering this space of goodish,

Speaker 19 like a goodish, a good person may not have done that, but a goodish person would.

Speaker 19 And allow, just like this like allowance of nuance and allowance of gray

Speaker 19 for me was

Speaker 19 so incredibly helpful to like stop these spirals, these like self-perpetuating spirals. of shame and and then you act out in shame which then brings more shame and then you know, the cycle continues.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that's very interesting. I don't know if you're able to answer this question, but Jodi was a licensed therapist.

Speaker 9 Therapy is something that you really leaned on in your healing and continued to do so. We're huge advocates of therapy, but I do talk to hundreds of people every day who are also in therapy.

Speaker 9 And it's, you know, it's a very scary reality of like

Speaker 9 therapy as a modality can be very positive, but also just just like, you know, religion has a positive impact on a lot of people, but often weaponized.

Speaker 9 And most great things in this world are often can be weaponized for evil. You've seen someone like Jodi as a licensed therapist do some very destructive names and hide behind the mask of a therapist.

Speaker 9 Have you been able to

Speaker 9 delineate, you know,

Speaker 9 for the people listening, like, are there any red flags that you're aware of that for people who might be working with a therapist that maybe they shouldn't be.

Speaker 9 And maybe they're not to the degree that Jodi is. Maybe it's just someone who's just not quite qualified or actually

Speaker 9 helping this person out, but the person's just showing up for therapy. I'm like, I'm in therapy.
And it's just like two years later, like, I'm still talking about the ex I hank it over.

Speaker 9 And it's like, well,

Speaker 9 you know, maybe, you know, maybe, but have you been able, you've seen the extremes of both sides of what therapy can do from a harmful standpoint and how it can be a life-saving thing.

Speaker 9 Do you have any wisdom to pass along or observations you've experienced seeing both of those extremes?

Speaker 19 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 19 not only, obviously, Jodi is one of the most harmful therapists, I think, probably in existence.

Speaker 19 I've also had a few other therapy experiences that were quite harmful as well. And I was pretty afraid of therapy for a long time.

Speaker 19 And it was so frustrating because I knew cognitively that therapy, like not every therapist, is with Jodi, and that I needed help with processing what I had gone through.

Speaker 19 But the fear of seeing a therapist was so strong that it also kind of trapped me for a long time.

Speaker 19 And I went the route of just like doing my own reading, just reading as much self-help and as much, you know, therapeutic

Speaker 19 resources as possible.

Speaker 19 I think things you can look out for, I think learning to trust your gut.

Speaker 19 And I know that's so hard, especially even like if you're in a space of like, you don't know what's right, you don't know what's up or down, you don't know what reality is.

Speaker 19 I find for myself, there's like this kind of spinning sensation that I get in my head when I can, when someone's being manipulative.

Speaker 19 And I've learned just over the years that like when this kind of sensation happens, that there's something going on, like not everything is being honest or there's like some deceit happening.

Speaker 19 If you feel bad afterwards, and not like if you feel like that was heavy, or that was hard to process, or that maybe that was sad, but if you just feel bad afterwards, probably a sign that they may not be the right fit for you.

Speaker 19 Um, also, I think getting

Speaker 19 a knowledge of

Speaker 19 specific types of modalities,

Speaker 19 um,

Speaker 19 because there's so many types of therapies, and so maybe doing some research in those modalities specifically and having maybe a baseline understanding of what you're supposed to be learning within those modalities.

Speaker 19 And if that, if like what your therapist is doing doesn't align with that, then also another

Speaker 19 sign that's probably not the best. I had a therapist once break HIPAA with me.

Speaker 19 I had a therapist, like it was after Jodi, and I went to her as a recommendation from the church.

Speaker 19 And I started telling her the story of what Jodi did. And she's like, stopped me and she's like, I've heard this before.

Speaker 19 And I was like, okay. And she was like, yeah.
Do you have an aunt? And then she like said my, one of my other aunts' names. I was like, yeah.

Speaker 19 And she's like, I was seeing her while this was happening and she would tell me about this. And I'm like,

Speaker 27 what?

Speaker 19 Pretty sure that you shouldn't have said that. But then she then went on and said, yeah, if I hadn't seen your aunt, I don't think I've like, I don't think I I would have believed what you had said.

Speaker 19 If I had not already heard the story, I don't think I would have believed you, anyways. And I would

Speaker 19 like I was like 19 or 20 at this point,

Speaker 19 and I remember just like sitting there being like, What do you mean you weren't gonna believe me?

Speaker 19 Like, and that was the first time I had ever had the thought that like

Speaker 19 someone that had no contact with Jodi, that hadn't been like corrupted by Jodi, wouldn't believe me. Yeah, And so, like, I never went back to her.

Speaker 19 Like, that's a pretty glaring, you know, breaking of trust. I had a therapist once try to get me, like, he intentionally wanted to get me angry to like bring out the real stuff.

Speaker 5 Like, he literally told me that.

Speaker 19 And I was like, that sounds like what Jodi would do. Absolutely not.
Like, not ethical.

Speaker 19 It's hard. It's expensive and it's hard.
And you have to continue to find the right one. I know it can feel so discouraging.
And I also think this idea that everyone needs to go to therapy, I

Speaker 19 kind of don't really believe that. Like, I think that people can benefit from self-analysis and analysis in general and like learning skills.
But there are ways of learning skills and

Speaker 19 having self-analysis that doesn't necessarily involve spending $150 a week. Like, yes, I think there are definitely certain types of maybe neuroses or conditions that would greatly benefit therapy.

Speaker 19 But I think this blanket statement that every single person needs to go to therapy

Speaker 19 don't necessarily agree with.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I like what you said about just, like you said, it feels a little vague, following your gut, but just if you feel bad afterwards, it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 9 And then, like you said, there's

Speaker 9 processing a difficult conversation. And there's like what Jodi seemed to do a very excellent job of is making again, like it's leaving you more in doubt of yourself or your actions or who you are.

Speaker 19 She would like create the disease and then offer you the cure. But every time you go, you get a little little bit of the cure, but more disease.
And so then it would just kept you stuck in it.

Speaker 15 Well, I have to say, like, you know, thank you so much for pulling back the curtain of just all the corrupt and awful things that the Mormon church does,

Speaker 15 you know, to obviously not just everyone, but like women especially. And also, I'm just like, so sorry that you went through everything that you went through.
You didn't deserve to go through that.

Speaker 15 I'm sorry no one protected you. You know, you should have been protected.

Speaker 15 You do have a really powerful voice, though, and I think you should be really proud of that.

Speaker 19 Thank you.

Speaker 27 Yeah.

Speaker 19 I really appreciate that.

Speaker 9 On a lighter note, how did you end up in Berlin? I'm just curious. And obviously you are a tattoo artist.

Speaker 9 We, you know, my wife and I, if we we have tattoos and they look like some beautiful works of art. Do you, how did you end up in Berlin? Do you have a favorite tattoo of yours?

Speaker 9 And what do you like most about being a tattoo artist?

Speaker 19 Okay, good. Fun questions.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 19 Berlin, I've wanted to live in Berlin for so long. The first time I came here, I think it was 2017, I think, 2018.

Speaker 19 And I just immediately fell in love with the city. And I would keep, for for the longest time, I had

Speaker 19 like an S-Bahn, like a transit ticket in my wallet. And I just kept it there.
And every time I would open my wallet, I would see it as like a reminder, like, this is where I want to be. And

Speaker 19 I was on a birthday trip

Speaker 19 two February's ago.

Speaker 19 I went on this, like,

Speaker 19 I don't know, to just kind of get away from everything and to just have some like a reprieve from all the heaviness. I went on this Europe trip and I met my partner in a karaoke booth

Speaker 19 at Monster Ronsons. And if you're ever in Berlin, you should definitely check out Monster Ronson's.
It's so fun. It's like one of the most fun karaoke.
It's like small room karaoke.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 we just had this beautiful

Speaker 19 tryst across Europe. He like followed me around Europe for like a month.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 I, yeah, we fell in love. And it was not hard to convince me to move to Berlin.
I already wanted to be here. So yeah, I

Speaker 19 moved here and I love the city. It's, you know, moving to a foreign country is definitely not for the faint of heart, even

Speaker 19 in a city that, you know, most people speak English here, but

Speaker 19 it's still like I have so much more

Speaker 19 empathy and sympathy for people that have to move to other countries, that don't have the luxury of being there

Speaker 19 or the luxury of choosing that they, you know, that people that are displaced, people that are seeking a better life than themselves, running away from danger. Because like, as a,

Speaker 19 you know, I don't have kids. I don't have these responsibilities.
I.

Speaker 19 you know, I'm a white person moving to a white country and how stressful and difficult it is. I just, I have so much more

Speaker 19 sympathy for people that have to do it for other reasons.

Speaker 19 But

Speaker 19 sorry, not to go heavy again, but to bring back my favorite tattoo. That's a good question.
I feel like every time I get a new tattoo, it becomes my favorite tattoo.

Speaker 12 Sure.

Speaker 19 But I have a back piece I'm working on that I really, really love. I'm getting it done in London.

Speaker 19 This artist's name is Jacob Morris, JCM on Instagram. And then my favorite thing about tattooing is honestly the connection with people.

Speaker 19 Like, I love making the tattoos for sure, but the application of tattooing is just like kind of a benefit, like a perk.

Speaker 19 For me, it's like you're with someone for so long, like for hours times, and you're getting to know them. You're getting to know,

Speaker 19 and there's something about not just.

Speaker 19 touching someone, but you're also hurting them and permanently changing their appearance that breaks down barriers so quickly that you go from like, hi, nice to meet you to like them telling me about, you know, addiction and trauma and

Speaker 19 just the most

Speaker 19 personal stories.

Speaker 19 And I love, I mean, I love this. It's to me, that's.

Speaker 19 If tattooing didn't also include the personal connection, I don't think I would really enjoy it.

Speaker 27 It's really beautiful.

Speaker 9 Well, Jesse, I just want to thank you again again for taking the time. I know

Speaker 9 these conversations aren't always easy to live back, but

Speaker 9 hopefully, despite all the trauma and abuse that Jodi perpetuated, this is, again, continues to shed a light on

Speaker 9 the fact that this stuff goes on and

Speaker 9 what to look for. And I think sometimes it's...
To your point, like you talked about blinders, you know, like the world is sometimes this easier to just

Speaker 9 digest when you don't think this type of stuff can happen or it can't happen around you. And it's just,

Speaker 9 we don't always want to be looking for it, but it's important to be diligent and it's important to be aware

Speaker 9 that this type of evil can exist in our world and to be mindful of it so that if we are in a position to try to put a stop to it or call it out, we might be hopefully in a better position to do so.

Speaker 9 So I want to thank you for again taking the time.

Speaker 19 Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 15 And enjoy your friends tomorrow. Thank you.
It'll be so fun to be surrounded by your support system.

Speaker 19 We love you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 9 All right. Thanks so much, Jesse.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 15 That was great. Thank you, Jesse.

Speaker 9 Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Enjoy your friends. We really thank you.
And yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 19 Bye, guys.

Speaker 15 Well, the final two episodes of ID, Ruby and Jody, a cult of sin and influence premieres tonight, beginning at 9-8 central on ID. Episodes will be available to stream on HBO Max and Discovery.

Speaker 9 Want to thank our guest, Jesse Hildebrand, as well as not that cosmetic thank you guys for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

Speaker 9 We have Dale and Kat from Bachelor in Paradise joining us to talk about their messy relationship on Bachelor in Paradise, the finale, and all that fun stuff. Lots of talking shit, I am sure.

Speaker 9 Get ready for some fun tomorrow. We'll see you then.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 21 If you thought goldenly breaded McDonald's chicken couldn't get more golden, think golder!

Speaker 9 Because new sweet and smoky special edition gold sauce is here, made for your chicken favorites. I participate in McDonald's for a limited time.

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