E1014 Ask Nick with Dylan Efron - Mr. Perfect Liar

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Dylan, welcome back to the show.

I'm stoked to be here.

I'm very stoked to have you.

Yeah, the first time you came on here, you flattered me by saying that you used to listen to some ass Nick episodes.

Yeah, I still do.

I love that.

This is, of all the shows that we do, this is my favorite show.

It's like a passion project.

I actually feel like we actually help people.

Well, you're good at it.

Like,

when you first asked me, I'm like, I'm going to love this, but I'm also going to be as helpful as your dentist would be.

Like, I'm not going to give good advice, but I love it.

I think you'll be surprised.

You know, people always say, like, they ask me, like, why, you know, are you good at, why are you good at advice?

Well, like, I'm old enough to have made plenty of mistakes and tried to have learned from them.

I think you're going to surprise yourself.

We'll see.

You have to give me a score.

So bring it back to Dancing with the Stars.

Give me a score at the end.

Because also people just want to, like, also, that's what I love about this show, too.

It's just like, you know, when we do the other shows, like reality, you know, I certainly love interviewing people.

When we talk like pop culture and reality TV stuff, it's just like, I certainly love giving my opinion, but it's, it's like hazard pay where this is,

I think it's, it's the most honest way I can like show people who I am as a person

because you can be a little bit vulnerable without like sharing too much about yourself if you don't want to.

And I surprisingly like to be a private person.

Yeah, people are going to really enjoy hearing your perspective because I think they just enjoy hearing from you, period.

But before we get to our first calls, obviously you're on Dancing with the Stars, and we we want to talk a little bit about this we are recording this eight days before the episode is going to come out so dylan i i'm i'm going to be guessing you're not getting eliminated i hope i hope i hope

so i'm banking on that we're doing a quick step right now quick step yeah so we just did a foxtrot and it's kind of nice because foxtrot was my first time in frame okay quickstep's still in frame but it's like a lot faster so we're gonna be running around that stage i think it's a good progression though because i i i struggled with the foxtrot i dude the frame is so much easier for me than like, I think that classic ballroom, I'm tall and long, so like I can build out.

I had a hard time, I know, I just struggled with it.

It felt like

dude, the Latin stuff's way harder.

Like, you saw my weeks one and two, I was out there shaking it.

It's fun to watch you, man.

It always brings me back, but you are, you're having a good time.

It's so much fun.

Like, I knew it was going to be a challenge, and it's so out of my comfort zone, but I'm in love with it.

Like, I love it so much more than I ever thought I would.

Courtney's been to every show.

She's enjoying it?

Yeah, she loves it.

She doesn't like the camera in her face every time.

It was like, she's always like, can I just go and not sit in the recorded seats?

And then sure enough, the camera's right there the whole time.

So she's definitely a pretty private person.

Yeah, she's getting used to it, though.

Like, I'm so happy she's there everywhere.

Because you, you know, your brother obviously has been a big star for a while.

I knew of your existence a few years back.

I think one day, like, the internet was like, oh, that guy friend has a brother.

He's hot.

And I was like, oh, yeah, it's a good looking guy.

But like, seriously, lately, every since you went on Traders and now you're dancing with the stars, your star has been rising.

You know, like you have become a real public figure.

You're a very humble guy with it.

But like, how has your girlfriend and your relationship, we talk a lot about connection on this show, like staying connected.

And Nellie and I, that's something we, in past relationships, I never thought about that word and tangibly in a sense, where it makes sense.

But like in our relationship now, you know, with therapy we've done and things like that, we were mindful of how connected or disconnected we are at any given moment.

And obviously with you being busy and the attention you get, how do you and Courtney stay connected?

And how has she been with this recent success that you've had in the public eye?

I wouldn't say much has changed.

So, like, the cool thing that's changed is we started traveling together a lot more.

So, like, for a lot of these like trips I'll do with brands or whatever, I get to bring her with me.

So, it's like, I think incorporating her more into that has helped our relationship a lot.

Yeah.

And then I would be lying if dancing with the stars wasn't tough, but I think it's tougher on Courtney than me just because we're in the studio five hours a day.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, yeah, yeah.

My brain's mush.

My body hurts.

So it's like, we're actually

like, I'm living outside of our Manhattan Beach place right now, closer to where the studio is.

So that it's trying right now, but like, she's so supportive.

She knows I love her 100%.

So it's like,

we know it's all temporary.

And like, so that's why I don't think anything's really changed.

Like, I know it's hard for us right now, but we're still where we are we still love each other and it's yeah we're in a great place yeah i like that you mentioned like the trap like doing things together yeah when you travel and stuff like that's something that nail and i are pretty intentional about where we just you know we have busy lifestyles so it doesn't feel we're never suffocating each other because there's a lot of variety we also just like hanging out together like which i think is important but um yeah it sounds like you guys have a have a good thing going before we get to our callers dylan and i share the same publicist she is here in the background she wants us to plug that Dylan and I are both up for sexiest man alive in separate categories.

And it's not sexiest man alive.

When I first saw that, I was like, no way.

What is it?

It's a subcategory.

It's a subcategory.

Yeah, we don't qualify for sexiest man alive.

So it's subcategory.

I'm tattoos.

Which I'm a little offended by.

Maybe it's like the...

The dog tattoos and the butterflies don't cut it.

Dylan does to have sexy tattoos, though.

I guess I'm up for sexiest podcast hosts.

That's honestly like there's a lot of podcast hosts.

I'm just happy to be included in the same category as Dylan Efron.

And Dylan is competing on Dancing with the Stars every Tuesday night, and he needs your support.

So be sure to text Dylan to 21523 and make sure that this man gets to the finals.

Getting to the finals matters.

Winning, that's more of an eagle thing.

No, getting to the finals is the goal because that means I like I juiced it as much as I could.

No, like I got as much time and of learning to dance as I could.

Go to people.com and find the sex.

Yeah, go to sexiestmen.com.

It's so weird.

I don't know if you want to Google that.

One of the ones on Dancing with the Stars days, I was ripped.

Dude, you burned so much calories.

And Natalie feels a little cheated that

I'm not carrying quite the same physique.

And a couple of times she has sent sent me photos of you as inspiration.

It's honestly crazy, though.

It's like

I'm normally pretty fit.

As soon as I started dancing,

my pant size has gone down.

I'm like a 30 right or 31.

I'm a 31.

My own pant size is down.

I haven't had sugar all year.

Wow.

Yeah.

But it's just activity.

It's like

we're dancing for four hours.

So it's not like I'm lifting weights.

It's literally that I'm just moving and I'm losing so much weight.

Is that reel you made?

That would turn me on.

Anyways, I'm going to stop hitting on Dylan.

Well, I mean, I know our callers are waiting for us, so how about we just dive into the callers?

So I know you've listened before.

I don't read these calls.

So like my producers will select them.

I go in blind.

Oh, I love it.

That makes me even happier.

So we just kind of active listen, ask questions as they come up.

This is just being at a party, and someone who calls in says, all right, I got to bend your ear, man.

This is the best.

There's no wrong answer.

I know.

Let's get into it.

So let's get to our first caller.

How's it going?

Hi, I'm Jessica.

I'm 30 years old, and I need to know if I'm dating Mr.

Perfect or Mr.

Perfect Flyer.

Okay.

Well, tell us more about Mr.

We Don't Know Yet.

So his name's Damon.

Is that his real name?

No, it's a fake name.

And

we met on Bumble.

uh like

two months ago.

Okay.

We had the best first date I've ever had.

The chemistry, the connection, everything was perfect.

But then something like on the fifth date, he canceled last minute, but with a really apologetic, like heartfelt response and then said that he would explain the whole situation to me on our next date.

He planned the next date.

And I actually kind of forgot about it because we both work weird hour jobs, but he was prioritizing me.

Why did him canceling require a massive explanation as opposed to like, you know, sometimes things come up.

Like, was it like last minute or like?

Yeah, it was last minute.

Okay.

It was like two hours before the date.

Okay.

What did he say?

Do you have that message?

Yeah, I do.

So he originally was going to just push it back and then he goes, I really hate to do this.

I am so, so sorry.

Can we possibly reschedule our sushi movie night?

This is going to take me way longer than I thought.

Super annoyed right now.

I wanted to let you know, though, so you weren't waiting on me, although I didn't give you much of a notice.

I'm very sorry.

I will make it up to you.

I promise.

So was he like busy at work or something?

No, he claimed that he was helping his parents with something.

Okay.

And he didn't really give me much detail.

And then I just kind of thumbs up the message because I was slightly annoyed.

And then so later that that was at like 4.30.

Our date was supposed to be at 6.30.

And something that you should note is that when when I was waiting for the date, I went out with my friend and I was kind of showing his profile to her.

And I don't know if you know much about Bumble, but it updates your location at the bottom of the profile

every time you open the app.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so it showed that.

So I'm going to use like a fake location, but it's like the same distance and similar to us.

So let's say that he lives in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

It was showing that he he was in Coldwater, Michigan, which is like an hour, 15 away from him.

And he lives an hour away from me already in the opposite direction.

So a regional data.

Yeah.

This might be a dumb question, but are you guys exclusive?

Like how, how many, this is like your fifth date at this point?

Yeah, we were not exclusive.

What conversations, if any, did you have about like the progress?

Like, because five dates.

It's like

we didn't really have a conversation yet.

Like we both seemed seemed to be enjoying ourselves.

And I, he was the only guy I was seeing at that point.

Um, have you hooked up?

Not yet.

Okay.

Not at this point.

So at this point, we only made out like a heavy makeout session.

That's about it.

The issue is that that's just where like I noticed, oh, okay, he's in this area.

You noticed and it got in your head.

Yes.

But the actual issue is if he lied about his excuse.

Just uh, so after like I thumbed up the message later that night, he messaged me again saying, I'm sure you're upset with me and rightfully so.

I'm very sorry again.

That's not how I anticipated my afternoon or evening going.

Very annoyed and will gladly explain.

Wait, wait, so that the same night he he canceled,

that's when you looked at the location and he was in a different state?

During the day.

So he ended up, so at like 2 30 is when he first said that he got caught up with his parent

and couldn't, it might have had to push the date back a couple hours.

But you know where his parents live and this is not where they live.

He lives with his parents

because he moved back home a couple months ago.

So he's just trying to wait until he can buy a house.

So he was not where he was supposed to be,

which is, that's not the issue.

The issue is when we ended up making up our date, we went to,

or I completely kind of forgot to bring it up, like for him to like explain the situation.

And he brought it up on his own, which I was like, okay, that's kind of a green flag that he went out of his way to bring it back up.

But his

story did not have him out of state, it had him rather close to where he lived, and it didn't really make sense.

He claimed that he was helping his parents with

they had like a R, they rent a trailer at an RV place,

and he was helping them with that.

And then their neighbor slash friends tried to move a big porch and he helped them.

And then one of the guys dropped the porch on his foot and it broke his like toes.

And so he had to take him to the hospital.

The guy you're dating broke his toes?

No, the other guy,

one of the neighbors.

Check those toes.

He took him to the hospital.

And he grew up in this area.

So he's well familiarized with the hospitals in that area.

And I asked him, like, oh, like what hospital?

And he goes, oh,

I don't know.

Had to be this one.

And it was the way that he phrased it that sounded weird.

Yeah, because even if he did, even if he didn't know it off the top of his head, a quick, you know, more like, no, it's the one over on like that part of town.

There would be probably like, it had to be this one.

It's weird.

Yeah, it was like weird.

And so like, I just like kind of notated it and I could pick up on the vibe from him that he could tell that I was kind of skeptical.

What's your thought, Dylan?

I'm just, yeah,

I'm kind of confused why,

I don't understand how serious you guys are.

I guess my problem, because I don't know why he's feeling the need to explain in such detail to you why he couldn't, like, why he had to miss a date.

Like, I, me personally, I wouldn't have like come with a, like, oh my gosh, I'll explain it so much.

It's like, hey, I'm so sorry.

I can't make it.

Like, I wouldn't have made an excuse pre-ready.

So, I'm wondering why he felt the need to like

really make this such a big deal and stuff.

Yeah, to the Dylan's point.

And that's why I asked early on, we're like, you know,

stuff comes up.

We don't like a last-minute ditch, but the main thing is like someone's willingness to reschedule.

Like, it's always like, hey, something came up.

Can't tonight.

That's it?

And then

that feels like a flag.

Hey, something came up.

Really sorry.

Like, let's rain check for this weekend.

I have time.

Like, I am, I'm available, blah, blah, blah.

Like, that's really it.

it doesn't need like yeah like why did he feel the need to explain i guess and i that's that's why i'm like me are you guys really serious so he's like just treading on water and doesn't want to upset you or maybe he could tell that you were already upset so he's trying to or is floundering yeah or he's lying or he's lying so i i don't know i i have a pretty good gut and i just something fell off i didn't know what fell off but just like it just felt maybe it was like performative i don't know did you so like where did you question him?

Like, did you just

didn't call it out yet?

Because I like to have somewhat of like proof before I ask questions or like that's just part of I've been lied to so much.

I don't like to just ask questions, then not know if they're actually lying or not.

What did you do?

So I like to notate stuff.

So I ended up, so that day ended up, we ended up sleeping together that night.

Wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

So

I was going to say, I ended up,

so because the rest of the date went fine.

So, I was like, maybe, so in my head, I'm trying to be logical.

I was like, maybe he opened the app like

earlier in the morning.

Fair enough.

Minus the details.

If we're understanding, because I feel like we're on the same page here, you were dating this guy.

You slow played it relatively.

And maybe compared to like normal hookup culture these days, but only had made out.

You had some plans.

He had to reschedule.

But his excuse gave you kind of a funny feeling.

Where, as you just described, your gut, your body told you, I don't know if he's being totally transparent.

I don't know if he's being honest.

I don't want to like jump to conclusions.

I'm going to hold off.

But that very night, even though he gave you that feeling that this guy might not be honest with you, you were like, you know what?

This is a night we should have sex.

It just, so I do lean more anxious.

So I was trying to give him the benefit of a doubt

because maybe I was being just like

I'm all for not jumping to conclusions and giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but like that's a threshold you crossed

of vulnerability.

And again, as we always talk about on the show, like, you know, men, women, whatever, but you know, often women tend to be more vulnerable emotionally after being intimate with someone for the first time.

And it just, that's an interesting choice on your part.

It really, it puts you in a very, it just puts you in a more vulnerable position.

And I would be curious to ask yourself why did i do that right you mentioned anxiousness i know i'm not a big attachment style guy but maybe you're an anxious attachment and something about your subconscious must have done that to you know you were feeling insecure about this guy being honest with you and instead of like slow playing it

pulling back a little bit and not pulling back to the point where you know you're like fuck this guy or whatever but just being like all right there i have, I'm not sure yet.

You know, we've only been on five dates.

He's giving me a bit of a yellow slash red flag moment here, but you, you did the thing where it's just like, well, I want to close the deal, so to speak.

And it was more like

a subconscious fear of what if he is dating someone else?

What if he is interested in someone else?

And I would.

be interested if I were you why why you made that decision that you did.

So we had a movie night that night after dinner

And it just kind of went that way.

It's not like no doubt, no doubt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I didn't really think too much of it.

I like we it just like was an intense makeup that led to that.

And he was not pushy.

That this is another reason why it's so confusing, confusing, because he was never ever pushy about any of like the physical aspects.

of it.

He always kind of let me take the lead on that area.

So like I've dated players players before.

I mean, typically you can tell when they are a little bit more

gun-ho on the physical.

Yeah, but there's covert players out there, too.

Yeah, so that's why I just, he must be one of them, possibly.

I don't know.

He also just like, you know, it's,

there's a little bit of like,

it just like just dating culture now where it's, you know, five dates.

is it's not a ton amount of time, but like, it's a decent amount of time.

And you didn't do kind of any checking in.

So like, technically, he's not really doing anything wrong.

And I think a lot of people these days, when they're dating people and going on dates, it's like,

unless you guys are like saying, well, all right, we've been on five dates.

You know, you were like, I'm not dating anyone else, but it doesn't sound like you really communicated that with him.

You made a choice for yourself.

You're like, I'm not going to date anyone else because I like him.

But you didn't use that as an opportunity to be like, hey, just like letting you know, I really like where this is going.

And I'm not not really interested in anyone else.

I'm not, you know, we don't need to, I don't need you to like, you know, confess you're ever dying love to me.

So I ended up talking to him.

When?

So that was our fifth date.

Then we ended up having a sixth date that was, uh, that went well.

And so on our seventh date is when he ended up having to change plan.

Okay.

Um, just because, which was another one that was a little

confusing because he supposedly lives with his parents and he has a dog.

His dog should be with his parents, but he claimed that he might have to change his plans.

My parents didn't tell me we were going, they were going to watch my sister's dog, and the dogs don't get along, so they can't watch Shay for me.

So, basically, she has to stay with me.

Should we do something else, maybe with the dogs?

So, it doesn't make sense because if he's living with his parents,

and but because after the date that he canceled, and I noticed that he was in that other state, Coldwater,

Michigan.

I continued to like kind of keep an eye out.

And he was in, he was there a lot, like

often.

And on days that he told me that he, like, when he was like, when we were just texting, like, we didn't text 24-7, but we'd text like every couple hours.

So was it, and was your, at any point, did you respond?

I thought you lived with your parents?

So I ended up saying, oh, I'm a little disappointed.

That place looked fun.

Can't lie, I'm a little nervous that you're going to cancel like last time because the last time he tried to start like switching up the plans is when he canceled.

So we ended up changing the plans to somewhere near us and then keeping his dog with at my place.

And then when he got here is when I was like, I'm a little confused.

Like, why can't the dogs like feed together?

Like, I thought you lived there.

And he basically said that.

it was his dad's fault because his dad, his dad agreed to it with his sister.

And then him and his mom didn't know about it so it was he was just kind of playing it off like oh dad made this plan and then didn't communicate it to us so i kind of was and got the shit end of the stick part of me feels like there's like you you admittedly already said you're a little bit anxious and skeptical in relationships it

it kind of feels like It's a little back and forth.

Like he's almost afraid to cancel.

So maybe he's coming up with some white lies to like try to not blow,

not not wind you up like he has to cancel but he doesn't want to say that it was something stupid so he's like trying to come up with a good excuse and then you're questioning his excuses and i and i think it's it could be like perpetuating each other a little bit like you you are anxious and skeptical he knows that so he wants to really like make sure that you feel comfortable like and i don't know maybe that maybe it's like self-perpetu perpetuating in a way Well, to that point, I'm curious about you.

You know, you date, right?

So, like, you went on five dates with this guy.

Like you didn't have conversations about like what are we, which is totally fine, but you decided that you're not dating other people.

So from in from your point of view, like what are your expectations?

If you're not having the exclusive conversation, then I'm assuming that you must at least accept that like he might be, you met on the app, so he's probably still on the apps.

He might be matched with other people.

He could be going on other dates.

So from your point of view, would you want him to tell you, you know, that he's like juggling other dates?

Because I think the problem with dating culture right now is like, well, why not?

You know, it's just like, well, so then, but then you get into these excuses that people start lying, right?

Because it's like, well, I don't know, am I supposed to just tell her?

Or do I tell him?

Or, so then like, something comes up and maybe it's this other date, right?

He literally, for all you know, could have been matched with some other girl that he kind of likes, maybe likes less than you, doesn't really know.

And she was like, well, I'm actually going out of town the tonight's my only night so he's like all right well i'm gonna cancel with her and that you know what i'm saying and now he's like lying to you uh i don't i'm not i'm not saying that's okay yeah that's the area where i because at this point we were not exclusive i was not the issue was not him seeing other people because when i date i don't like i said i like to take things a little bit slower and i expect to them to not automatically cut everyone off because I don't want to just be chosen

because they were just like, oh, okay, that's convenient.

I want you to pick me because I was, you actually liked me more than like other people.

Like, I don't want, I want to be the best option.

I don't want you just to settle.

So I don't expect him just to stop dating other people because we were dating.

My issue was the possibility of him lying.

Because like I've, I've dated multiple people and I've, I never lied to somebody.

Like if they said, oh, what are you doing tonight?

I just say, oh, I have dinner planned.

I don't say, oh, I'm seeing my sister and like make this extravagant lie.

Because if you're lying that easily now, like, what else are you going to lie about?

That's kind of where my head was concerned.

Because I'm a really straight-up person.

How old is he?

He's 30.

Okay.

That's great that you are.

And I agree with you.

I do think that a lot of people justify these white lies, especially when there's a lack of understanding what the expectations are between two people.

And it doesn't justify what he's doing, but if you're someone who really values directness and honesty, then

you should, that's how you should communicate.

I brought this up multiple times with Ronnie Wu.

a former therapist, celebrity chef, and he talked about like

set the expectations of how you want to communicate.

If you want someone to text you back right away, don't wait three hours or a day, you know, like don't, you know, a lot of times people like don't text back right away because they don't want to sound too eager.

But like, as soon as soon as someone texts back right away, then it's like a green light of like how to communicate, right?

So you need to maybe be more direct with what your expectations are.

And I think that would just help you out.

Yeah.

Well, I'm confirmed in the beginning of our dating that he he was serious about dating like i asked him uh what his intentions were with dating uh he said that he was dating for marriage like he's sure that's so vague no exactly and so i ended up on the seventh day after we we ended up going bowling and um and we had dinner and then we went bowling and we were having like a really good time uh and then towards the end of it uh i brought up the conversation i i basically said it was like a temperature check.

I was like, kind of just wanted to do a temperature check, see how you're feeling.

And he was like, extremely vague.

He was like, I'm having a good time with you.

Like, I enjoy getting to know you.

And I was like, well, that's, I literally said, well, that's a very vague answer.

And he was like, well, I don't know what you want me to say.

I can't sit here and say that I'm falling in love with you.

And I was like, okay, I don't appreciate you doing that.

Like,

you're

like putting this back on me and twisting it into something that it's not when you know exactly what I'm asking like on where you stand here.

And then he went back to, well, I'm dating to Mary.

And then so, and he goes, I'm just in a weird place right now because I'm living with my parents and I'm looking to buy a house over in like the

Michigan area, let's say.

So kind of the area where he's been.

And he goes, and so I would be a little further away from you.

And I was like, that's okay.

Like, I enjoy my independence.

So that's not an issue for me.

I ended up saying, like, speaking of Michigan, what's in Coldwater, Michigan?

And he like looked like a deer with in like in headlights and was like, oh, um,

well, my cousins live in

Coldwater.

And I was like, okay.

And I kind of just like told him outright.

I was like, the day that you, you canceled.

I was happened to be on bumble showing your profile to my friend and it did show your location there

and it's kind of popped up there several times since then.

So I'm just kind of curious on if you could have been like bibbing on the reason why you canceled.

And he didn't really respond with an answer.

He kind of was just

saying like, oh, I'm sorry, like I did open like I did open my bumble when I was over there.

Like I apologize for that.

I'm like, that's not why, that's not what I'm asking.

And that's not the concern here.

Like, we're not exclusive.

That wasn't my issue.

My issue was the possibility of you like lying.

And he was like, well, you seem like you already know or you already believe what you're thinking.

So like, I don't really know what else to say.

And that's really all he gave me.

Yeah,

I hate this response from him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It sounds like he's just not ready.

It sounds like you're more ready than him.

And like, I think that's a step back.

Like,

if you're,

it seems like you're more in than him.

And maybe it's just time to take a little bit step back.

It doesn't mean it's not going to work out or anything, but it's like, and maybe I just don't understand dating culture, but like you can have an incredibly emotional relationship from phone calls and texts and like stay in touch.

And

like maybe the timing isn't right for him right now, but that doesn't mean it's not going to work.

So I don't, I don't know.

It feels like, it just feels like you're a little bit more ready at this time than him.

So it's not done.

His lack of communication, like it's been.

Yeah, give us the where are we now.

So I was about to say, it's been like a week since I've spoken to him because we came back for him to like pick up his dog.

And as he was like getting his things together, I kind of was just like standing there, like we were standing there in silence because he wasn't giving me anything.

And then so he puts his stuff in his car, comes gets his dog walks out doesn't say a word and leaves

that's it and i have not heard from him since i just need to know did i self-sabotage this no i i def listen i i i definitely have some notes for you um okay but i don't think you self-sabotaged it i don't think you did anything wrong

uh that would change this outcome with this guy.

To Dylan's point, I completely agree that, agree that that he's probably just not in the right state of mind.

And if you've listened to the show, like you've heard me say, and I didn't realize this at the time,

just how I think, especially for men, if they don't feel established with other aspects of their life, I think it's really hard for them to commit.

They really have, I think a lot of, especially guys, have to feel like a sense of purpose.

They have to see their future.

in their kind of current state.

When I moved to LA, living, you know, at my buddy's place, like not knowing, like quitting my job and just like out here, just like hustling.

I was dating like crazy.

And I was certainly like, you know, I was in my mid-30s.

So if you ask, I was like, yeah, I want to meet someone for sure.

I'm, I'm dating to marry for sure.

Like that was definitely my answer.

But I just don't feel like I realized how difficult it was for me to mentally really commit to anyone because like.

I was living at my buddy's place, you know, I didn't feel like, you know, I was still figuring out myself in a sense or what I was going to do.

That's not an excuse, but I think for the ladies out there, if you are dating a guy who's living at home, anything that sounds transitional, you know, hates his job, complains about his career.

You know, yeah, like, hey, I'm saving money for, I'm living at home, like saving money, living with a friend.

Like, that's definitely a red flag in terms of whether they want to settle down or not.

It's a huge red flag for their actual ability to really be in a place where they really want to.

and it's very easy for men to say well i mean yeah i mean i want to like settle down someday for sure you know like they all mean it like i've always said like even in my book like every fuckboy wants to get married someday you know like they all they're and they're going to someday they will find their parents you know i've never thought about that though it's a little bit of a subconscious that like before you're ready to commit you want to make sure that you are monetarily like yeah you can actually provide for a family it's like subconscious you know you can do it without needing needing to be the provider, but there is a part of you that's like, yeah, there's a part of you that's like, no, I want to take care of my family.

I want to build something around it.

And you want to feel settled and things like that.

And so I think just in general, when you're meeting men who give off this kind of energy, I would just proceed with caution.

It doesn't mean they're incapable,

but I would doubt their ability to actually commit.

Because just like in all the other areas, he seemed like genuine.

Like he was actively

pursuing me.

He was making, he was talking to me, but not overly talking to me.

But there were like thoughtful messages because he is probably a guy who wants to have, he probably likes having a girlfriend.

He probably does want to settle down.

He's an early 30-year-old, so it's not like he's 22.

I guess my concern is how do because if I didn't have him, like if we met in the wild and I didn't meet him on bumble and I didn't see happen to see his location and catch him in that possible lie.

How do I filter this?

Yeah, but I don't think I think you checking the location just maybe sped up the inevitable because again, he was already canceling plans.

He was getting a little flaky and inconsistent.

Again, I think the most important part of this call was the fact that like you hooked up with him that night.

And I think you need to be mindful of that kind of your subconscious choices.

And like my big thing is like, get yours, you know, have your sex.

I'm not here to tell people when to have sex.

I've had one-night stands, like, I've had meaningless sex.

Have some fun, but you got to separate hookup culture and dating culture.

And, you know, and I think for men and women, and just like, again, like, I don't know how you respond to like sex and being intimate with someone, but I think you should just be honest with yourself about how you do respond and how that affects you emotionally.

And just be careful about that.

Like, you know,

and again, like when you say, and don't have the bar so low with men in the sense that like, I know there's a lot of pushy guys out there who after the first date are, you know, giving you the moves and you know, like, this guy just wants the fuck, you know, like, I get that.

But just because a guy is being a gentleman doesn't make him Prince Charming.

And it doesn't mean he's still not a guy who, if you want to have sex, he's down to have sex with you, right?

You're like, you know what I'm saying?

Because yeah, like he sounds like a respectful, decent guy, right?

Who probably someday wants to get married and he's well-intentioned, but he's out there dating and he's on the apps and he met you and probably met some other people.

And he got a little messy with how he communicated.

And I think your communication could be a lot better.

And I think you could be more honest with yourself about what your expectations with dating are.

And you mentioned, well, I want a guy to pick me for this and that.

We all want to be chosen.

I get that.

But I strongly believe this.

Like, if you, if you're dating

in 2025, especially if you're on the apps, if you even, hell, I think you should lie.

I'm kind of kidding, but like, tell a guy you have another date.

If you're, if you are casually dating and you guys aren't exclusive, do not be afraid to tell a guy that other men are pursuing you.

You know, do not put yourself on the sideline for him, you know?

Like, if you want to stop dating someone because you like them, great.

But do not, like, there's this weird thing that I think like women do where they feel like you are, you're letting him know that you're ready to date him and you're ready to be chosen subconsciously if you stop dating other other men and I think men will if he really likes you you dating some other guy will fuck him up in the best possible way

and even if you don't have a date I wouldn't be afraid to just be like yeah I mean I got a date tonight and I wouldn't say I have dinner plans I would say I have a date Okay.

I was about to say, because I typically do date multiple people at once.

It's just I enjoyed him and i didn't have any other pursuers that like i actually wanted to date so that's kind of where i was at that's totally fine but i'm just saying be direct

make

make him feel like he has competition sure but like you know you don't have to be manipulative about it but like it's you said i usually say i have dinner plans just no say i have a yeah if someone calls if you have a date with another guy and you're dating some other guy who for whatever reason you two haven't had any type of like what are we then you don't you beat, you know, and again, your whole thing calling in is like, I want honesty, right?

I want a guy to be honest with me, I want him to be transparent, but you're not, you're not actually being totally that either.

Because, you know, it's not like I have dinner plans is an admission of the truth when in reality, you have a date and you, and you're holding, you're withholding that information.

And that's slightly better than what we all are assuming he did, which is like he probably had plans with another woman

and he made a more of a lie.

Yours was an admission of the complete truth.

You know, yours is better, but what's, you know, it's not fully the truth.

And if two people aren't exclusive, if they're allowed to date other people,

then do that, right?

And it will be attractive to men.

It will, it will.

Because you will be honest and you'll be confident and you'll be direct and you will force the conversations that ultimately you have a hard time, it sounds like instigating, which is like, when do I ask a guy, what are we?

When do I ask about exclusivity?

When do I like set those expectations?

Normally I'm really open.

I think that whole thing got me like I was still trying to gather details and information for myself before I had that conversation because I still didn't know.

if I wanted to continue pursuing him if I found out that he was like, I guess, lying and canceling on me.

I'm like, now I'm going back to the original question, which is like, is this Mr.

Perfect or a perfect liar?

And I think maybe part of it too is just like a little bit of changing mindset of like, I don't think when you're on the like a sixth date or whatever, you're going to find Mr.

Perfect.

I like relationships evolve so much as you get to know people.

So maybe.

looking for more green flags and and looking for less red flags and just being like, wow, this guy has potential.

And like, maybe the more we see each other, he's going to become that Mr.

perfect to me but i think the odds that you're going to find mr perfect on that first date is so low it's like relationships just evolve and you be they become they you start to understand people more and see what you want so i think he's he's neither he's yeah he's perfect

perfect liar and i think i think he could become mr perfect and i think it's just like that mindset of like wow there's so many green flags i've been burned in the past it sounds like you have so you're you're looking for these red flags everyone's gonna have red flags they're like you're if you're looking for them you're gonna find them but maybe this guy had a lot of green flags that you could focus on and and eventually like

it might get there but i think it's it's well we haven't spoken to for a week i'm guessing i'm guessing this guy's not it but i'm guessing he's not it

but in the future

your question about that i self-sabotage i'm guessing is coming from a place of how it things got communicated.

I think you got mad and I think you weren't confident about like, it can i say this can i not say this because again we're not boyfriend and girlfriend and things get a little muddy when you have expectations but those expectations aren't communicated and then he could tell that you got mad and then he was like well i don't want to even deal with it so his like picking up his dog and walking out was like and i feel like that's a fairly typical situation i would just love for you to really hold yourself accountable and just be confident in what you're bringing to the table and and just be direct with the guys that you are casually dating or seeing.

You've got to start asking a little bit more direct questions.

You know, like, don't, don't ask the vague questions.

You'll get the vague answers.

Like, are you dating other people?

You know, I just want to make, I'm not.

If you are, that's fine.

I'm not saying it's bad, but I just want to know, especially after you're intimate with someone, you have a right to know.

You have a right to know if they're...

They have other sexual partners and things like that.

That's just having safe sex.

And I guess that's where Nick was saying, like, you don't even have to see other people, but you could say like, hey, I'm so sorry.

Like, I got an asked on a date.

I wanted to ask you before I went.

And, like, even

something like that, that's just like, could be a total lie.

But then you're going to see, like, he's, if he's like, oh, go for it.

Like, just see what changes or something.

Like, like, I think

there is something to holding your power and and not letting your anxiousness get the best of you.

And just like,

try to get on the same page.

When you found out he might be up to something,

instead of, to Dylan's point, like holding your power, you became more vulnerable.

And instead of saying, I'm not sure, like red flag,

pull back, ask more questions, you push the chips all in.

Yeah,

you felt powerless, right?

You liked the guy.

That's fine, you know.

You became less certain where you stood with him.

And so you allowed him to have all that power out of fear of losing what you thought you had.

And when you as soon as you called in, and you know, and the callers like, we'll hear this, but like, I find when someone says, I had the best first date, it's just like a huge red flag.

It's a one date, you know?

It's, you can, you can't tell, and that's, I'm glad you had a great first date.

And that's, that should be a fun.

That's like, that was a lot of fun.

And you can get excited about that, but it's just one date.

And, and sometimes good daters who are really charming are really good at having great first dates, you know?

Yeah,

I can see that.

I just, normally I don't have the best first date, so I guess that's why I was just saying it was like a really good first date.

And that's all, and enjoy the first date, but don't, don't crown them just because you had a good first date.

And then I also just like, you know, I would know if I were you why you decide to hook up with people one way or the other.

You know, you were like, well, you know, we had a good movie night and it just kind of happened, which is fine.

But like, was it to have sex?

Was it to advance the relationship?

relationship i just want you to know why you're making that decision you know and i want you to be confident in that decision whatever you know whatever it is i also like want you to know too that you're not doing anything wrong like i i i feel like i don't know part parts of this conversation feel like you're hard on yourself and wondering if you made a mistake or something like you did a lot of right things you didn't have sex with them for the first six dates you like communicated in a good way.

Like, yeah, there's little areas that you could improve on based on the story and how it went, but it's like, you know, what you want, you're doing it.

So, like, I'd have faith that you're, you know, what you're doing and what you want, and it's going to happen.

So, like, I, I think,

I think this is just one, one guy that wasn't ready when you were ready.

But it sounds like you have a lot of experience in knowing what has hurt you in the past, what you're looking for, and you're on the right path.

So, it's like,

I think just have confidence and retain that power a little bit more.

How old are you again?

30.

What are the ages of the men you're usually dating?

Typically, my age are older.

Only by like a couple years.

So I think the oldest is like 32, 33.

I would be curious if like maybe aging up a few years could help.

I just feel like it's really hard to find men.

So my biggest issue has been finding men that I am attracted to while also having that in-depth connection that I want.

Yeah.

Because the guy I was dating before, this guy, we were seeing each other for a couple months and I just couldn't get that physical piece in sure um he was super sweet he treated me great we had great chemistry like emotionally but just that physical piece wasn't connecting and so i think that's another reason why this one was nice because i was actually attracted to him and we had that like emotional side so i don't know it's just really hard to find men that meet all my kind of i hear you i mean that's that's the challenge that you it's it's tough to have standards and be picky because it makes it harder to find the people you like and it's it's better to be picky than to like everybody but when you do have standards it you know there's definitely periods where like fuck man i just like uh

and physical attraction changes too like like i think the more you get to know people they become more beautiful so it's like i i think it is okay to no it's true i know you're just a sweet friend but like you can you can definitely give like yeah i don't know you don't have to be so physically attracted at first and once you get to know them if they're just i don't know that's normally how i am and and that's why I dated the other guy as long as I did because I was hoping that piece would fit.

Because there's a lot of people that I've dated that if I just looked at them, I wouldn't have typically gone for them.

Yeah, but I am a big personality person.

So, most of the guys that I've dated are typically because like that attraction builds because their personality

wins me over, but sometimes it just doesn't open up your pool a little bit more.

You know, if you're only dating guys that are like two years older than you, you know, like just I have my app set for 44 okay all right

it's just i just don't find most of them attractive i'm not saying they're all gonna be better i'm just i'm just i am just saying like sadly i think men are maturing slower than they used to yeah no i have faith in you i think the the only thing that like

again looking for those green flags in people rather than sussing out the reds and then also like

Be aware when you do look for those reds that it also has that feedback pattern too.

Because as soon as someone starts questioning me, I'll get defensive.

Yeah.

So, so I think it's, again, it's like, you want to be that confident, powerful person that, that I want to just be up front with you, that I trust and all that stuff.

If I, if you start questioning me, I'm going to start questioning everything as well.

That's a great point.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make earlier, where it's just like, in terms of like better communication, it's just like rather waiting to the point where you're feeling anxious and you're waiting.

And like, I get wanting to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but rather like just try as much as you can to challenge yourself to communicate what you're looking for and your expectations and it's okay to check in on a somewhat regular basis with the people you're dating about like what you want from them and see how they respond to your expectations because that doesn't sound like an accusation you waited to the point where it was like hey i was looking you know it's like i was looking at your location and where were you and like right off you know it's just like it's kind of um yeah it's it's you're gonna get really defensive yeah because then he's like wow she's already doing this like she's gonna be tracking my location and and it's it's it's and it was such an honest thing you did like totally but it but everything has that feedback pattern

it wasn't like it was an intentional thing yeah it was just like i was showing my friend the bump like his total but there's just that weird thing in dating culture where it's just like do i tell you know like It's like, yeah, you should tell them.

You know, people like justify these white lies because it's like, well, I don't want to be rude or i don't want to be a dick but just be honest you know like give them an opportunity to see how they're going to react you also learn a lot more about someone when you find out how they react to the disappointment yeah that was a thing that because communication is even though it sounds like i'm not a good communicator i i pride myself

where i've come because I was a really bad communicator for a long time.

And I've gone to therapy.

I've been going to therapy for years to fix it.

We always have to work on our communication because it's so easy to, it's so easy to convince ourselves, like the more passive approach to being direct.

It's a two-way street too.

Like you can't, you can be an incredible communicator and you're dating people that suck at communicating.

So that was what I was going to say was that it was that I, it's a non-negotiable for me to have a partner that can communicate.

And he obviously showed that he's incapable of that on our last conversation.

And on the third day, I kind of questioned if he was going to be a good communicator or not, because he said that he leans a little bit avoidant and that he's not necessarily the most efficient communicator.

So that was already in the back of my head.

And then the fact that he like walked out without even trying to talk about anything.

Lead by example.

My final note before we let you go, and I hope this was helpful.

A thumbs up when you're annoyed is not the best form of communication.

Well, I didn't want to like

be just I wanted him to know that I got the message, but I didn't want to.

It's okay to let someone know you're disappointed.

Okay, that's disappointing.

I hope we, you know, I'm just saying, you know,

I want you, I want you to be the person that you want to be, and I want you to have the type of communication that you're striving for in a relationship.

And I just want to point out little things that are a little contradictory to the energy that you're, you're hoping for to have in relationships.

We all do these things.

Like we're, you know, it's like the passive aggressive, you know, thumbs up, like, I don't want to make it a big deal.

So I'm just going to let you know I'm annoyed.

And we all do it.

I'm just, I still do it, you know, but it's definitely not the most productive.

Okay.

You know, I will take that.

All right.

All right.

Well, thanks for calling.

Thank you so much.

All right.

Take care.

See, you're great at this.

Yeah.

It's, it's hard because it's like,

I know she wants.

a relationship and I feel like it's like you want to be honest, but you, it's also she's doing a great job.

It's like hard to hear.

It's tough.

Yeah, it's really hard to hear.

Yeah, there's a lot she did right.

And then it's like, we have to focus on the small things.

And it's like, I know.

It's tough.

Yeah.

All right, let's get to the next caller.

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How's it going?

It's good.

How are you?

Good.

What's your name?

My name is Summer.

How old are you, Summer?

30.

And how can I help?

Or how can we help?

I have kind of like a large scale kind of thing that I'd love to discuss.

And then I have smaller, like more timely things.

But to start, I am a, I would say a recovering serial monogamist slash former youth pastor who is exploring her like fuckboy era.

Okay.

So it is quite the transition that I'm making.

So when you say you're a former serial monogamist, like how many serious relationships did you have in your 20s?

Oh, like for my 20s, I was always in serious relationships.

So I had a college boyfriend for a year and then I had a four-year relationship.

Okay.

And then a year and a half, and then six months.

So

there was not a lot of time in between those either.

Okay.

And then as when you think back and reflect on that decade, so to speak, give or take.

Yeah.

What are your personal opinions about that?

Good or bad?

Like, what are, what are, what are things that you liked about it?

What are things that you didn't like about it?

And what are things that you learned about yourself in relationships?

Oh, that's a great question.

So I think it's interesting looking back at it because I think that I was so, like, I think my sense of confidence really came from being in a relationship.

Okay.

Like now that I'm kind of actually experiencing being single, I feel like it's really been a test to kind of be like, okay, can I, you know, go up to a like social gathering and feel like confident without another partner with me?

Yeah, just a lot of my sense of worth came from another individual all throughout my 20s.

I can also.

put it out there that my dad passed away when I was 15.

So it's very possible that like maybe there's some unresolved daddy issues there.

So maybe I was just trying to like find that kind of love from a partner.

That's very possible.

I also think like I've been a good partner.

I do like having a partner.

But yeah, I think it was really important for me to finally spend time on my own and actually kind of learn about myself.

Okay.

And then other than being a fuckboy, as you say, what are some things that you are, as an independent woman right now what are things that you are focusing on outside of dating yeah there's a lot so i'm going back to school right now um i'm working towards a master's in counseling psychology awesome um i still like my passion is youth work and it always will be and um yeah so i'm working towards that so another way to put it is i feel like i've been living my like i feel like i lived my 30s and my 20s and now i kind of feel like i'm living my 20s and my 30s so now that i've like i'm out of this job, I'm like, I want to do fun things.

Like this winter, I'm going to try to work as a snowboard instructor.

Like I'm going to try to do serving.

Like I'm, I feel like I just want to experience what like a typical, I don't know, person in their 20s experienced because I feel like I didn't do that at all.

I went right into like a serious job, serious relationships.

And now I feel like I'm kind of

going backwards, but you know, I mean, yeah, I can, we very much relate.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I was so boring in my 20s.

No, that's literally how I felt.

Well, and I was very curious, especially to come on this podcast because I know, Nick, like I've heard you talk about the fact that you did have kind of like, I don't know if it was necessarily Christian, but some kind of religious

upbringing.

Yeah, totally.

So that was in part too, why I wanted to come on.

Do you want to have kids someday?

Oh, so I don't necessarily want to have kids.

I'm really open to building a family, but I've never had like.

a maternal instinct.

Like I don't really like babies that much, but I would love to have a family.

So I would love to adopt one day.

And especially because I am really good with adolescents, like I would adopt like a 10-year-old.

So yes and no, but it's not something like I don't feel the pressure of like a maternal clock.

All right.

I don't see what the issue is.

Everything you said sounds awesome.

Thank you.

You're in a great place.

Yeah.

So, well, to that, to that, to that point, like, what can we help you out with?

Like, what do you?

Yeah.

So I think a large part of it is maybe some like religious guilt, I guess, of like trying to explore.

Like, I feel like I'm in a place now where I feel that especially to like sex is like a healthy and good thing, but coming from someone who, and I was like for the longest time, like I was saving myself from marriage.

So it's, I don't know, it's interesting trying to like explore myself as like a sexual person without feeling that kind of like, I don't know, religious guilt.

Cause I also like, I still consider myself someone who, like, I love Jesus.

I have a lot of problems with like American evangelicalism, but, and like, I consider myself quite a progressive person, but there is still, I think, some of that like deep-rooted religious trauma.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that.

Like, so what have you been doing lately dating wise?

Like, how's the hooking up?

I'm hitting the apps.

I'm hitting the apps.

Okay.

Are you getting laid?

Like,

how's that going?

Okay.

And

how's that been?

Like, how?

I don't know.

It's been fun.

Like, I feel like I've gotten to a point now where it kind of feels like,

like i don't know it's it could kind of just be so meaningless at times um

and i so i had one person recently and i was gonna ask i don't know if you think i'm crazy for this but like we kind of had this like two week kind of fling and i was really into it and he seemed like the first person that in my whole year of kind of exploring like he was the first person that i was like you know what maybe i don't need to have my hoe era or my fuckboy era whatever it is like maybe i could just settle down and be with someone.

And it seemed like he was also very into it.

And then out of nowhere kind of just like ended it.

And it was in a phone call too.

And that was kind of a bummer.

But

yeah, I don't know.

And that one really hurt for some reason.

Like, I don't know.

I've been happy just like going on dates and meeting people.

And I like being single, but that one kind of really hurt.

I have strong opinions about all this.

I'm curious what Dylan has to say as well.

But as I say here today, today, I love my life.

I wouldn't change anything about it.

Love being married to Natalie.

Love my daughter.

I certainly waited a long time to find those things.

Totally.

But I'm currently in a position where I wouldn't change anything.

That being said, I was a serum monogamous all through my 20s.

After I got out of that last relationship in my early 30s, I was finally comfortable with being single.

And like you, like I felt like all my value was wrapped up in this desire to be in a relationship.

Internally, I felt like that was wrong, but I felt that almost crutch or that it was, it just was, even though well-intentioned, it got a little almost toxic where I felt like

I couldn't be independent outside of that, right?

So I think that was good for me to realize that and separate that a little bit and like be comfortably single.

And that like first year of being single, I really prided myself on being like a a fun third wheel or a fun fifth wheel with my groups of friends.

100% feeling that's good energy to have, but then I got real too comfortable with being single for a while, and then all of a sudden I blinked.

And I was, you know, part of it is like going on the bachelor and all that shit really, yeah, really threw my life upside down.

And oh, yeah, I remember the season.

But, you know, before Natalie and I like got together, you know, I had flings and I dated people casually for a few months here or there, but I was single for like a decade.

And it was, it became harder for me to really know what it meant to, like, fall for someone.

And then all that aside, too, I just, I think it's great that you had that recognition that you had maybe a little bit of an unhealthy pull of why you needed to be in a relationship.

As far as the religious like trauma and shame, my best advice for you to like just realize that that's all it is and kind of get over it.

you're not going to burn in hell i don't think so i don't know i'm not god but like you know

you seem like a good person but like i'm guessing thank you if god exists and there is a heaven there will be a lot of things that you know he'll probably care about outside of like you i don't know getting weighed but anyways that's not no i i completely agree and i think like I don't know, because I like, so also when I graduated high school, I went straight into like Bible school, like did a four-year bachelor's there and then went straight from that to working in my church job.

So there was like no chance to really explore out of that.

And I had been kind of wondering, like, I had been thinking about leaving the job for a long time, but I was so passionate about like the youth that I worked with.

So it was a really hard decision to like whether or not I was going to leave or stay.

Well, one thing I want to say, though, and I'm this, I'm curious what Dylan has to say about this, is like, again, despite that I wouldn't change anything, my only caution to you is just like, listen, like,

Good connections are hard to find.

And the

happiest I've ever been is still in a relationship, you know totally and I think we're in a dating culture right now that we've gone a little too extreme with miss independent mr.

independent and like yes and I think it's okay to want to be in a relationship and I think you know you want to you want to find that healthy balance yeah just be mindful about like all jokes aside I wouldn't put a timeline like if you meet the right person be open to pursuing it so it's interesting you say that because I feel like that's exactly what was happening with this situation with this most recent guy who kind of ended things.

So I feel like, I mean, I'm not going to lie, I had a little roster going on for a little bit and it was good.

But no, no one thought we were exclusive, whatever.

So it was all healthy and good.

But he was the first guy in a while that I was like, you know what?

I don't need my roster.

And I think that I, there could be a real connection here.

And I'm not going to not explore that because I'm having fun being single.

So he was really kind of the first person that I was like, yeah, like let's explore this.

And then I got so excited about that.

And it felt like, like, he was talking about the future and such absolutes and feeling like it was going to be really great.

And then, um, yeah, I just kind of broke things off.

So I'm worried now that I'm going to kind of go back into this like really closed off kind of feeling of like, ah, well, I'm never going to have feelings again.

And I'm just going to keep having meaningless sex.

So I'm, I don't know.

Yeah.

You always got to be willing to get your heart crushed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Everything you said, like you've, you've grown so much from when you were.

Yeah.

So like, I think it's awesome that your 20s are different than your 30s.

And like, you've, you've been on both sides of the spectrum and have so much experience of knowing this.

So now it's just finding the happy medium.

So like, I think, I think you're doing everything right.

Like, you, I think you're probably just,

it's like you said, it's, you have to get out of the frame.

Maybe right now you are dating.

Like, I don't know.

Maybe it went a little too far that way and you still need to have your eyes on the prize if you want a relationship at the end of the day.

Because if you put that energy into the world that you're just a fuckboy or whatever, then you're going to get that back.

So

I think you've grown and you've shown that and like, especially the religious stuff and all that stuff.

Like I wouldn't doubt anything you've done.

Now it's just finding that happy medium.

If your goal is to be in a relationship, which for me, I'm the same as Nick, like that's when I'm happiest.

So totally.

So I think if that's the goal, you take everything you've learned and seek that.

the big thing is it's like kind of striking that balance wherever you are in life if if you are single being able

to appreciate that time a lot of people are single that's how i was in my 20s like in between relationships i was like just depressed you know i was like right i felt sorry for myself i i didn't allow myself to accept that maybe the relationships i were in weren't quite serving me because i was so afraid of that failure of of things right?

Well, and that's, I do feel like this has been a time where I've actually like, I've really enjoyed it.

So then it's interesting because sometimes I'll have friends who will kind of make comments and be like, oh, I think you actually do really want to be in a relationship.

Like, and almost like because I'm going on dates and meeting people, but I'm like, I also just like meeting people.

I love, like, I've actually gone on quite a lot of like first dates and we don't end up having a romantic connection, but we become friends.

And I've just been having a lot of fun with that.

Well, I think the key, that's kind of my point.

The key is to be both, right?

Like, I think there's a lot of people who are like, they can't, it's like, I either, it's like the people who like, I just want to be in a relationship so bad or the people who are just like, I don't want to date anyone right now.

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm off the market.

It's like, right.

You can be both.

You can be like someone who's like, listen, like, I, I, I, being in a relationship rocks.

I like, I like having that person, but I'm not.

desperate to be in a relationship so much that I'm willing to be in a relationship with anyone just for the sake of having having that comfort and companionship.

And so, in the meantime,

there are aspects of being single that are fun and enjoyable, and the freedoms that go along with it.

And I'm going to take advantage of those freedoms in the meantime, invest in myself.

And like, you're going back to school.

And the more you invest in yourself as an individual level, you don't want to give that up for just anyone, right?

And it's having that purpose outside of a relationship.

And that's something I needed to find in my 30s was like to be able to like everything

and like everything I have now, right?

Like I love that everything I do is with a purpose for my family, but I needed to be able to figure that out on my own without be, you know, I needed to do that, you know, before, which is why we were talking about with our last caller about like, I think, especially for guys, like I had to, I had to find my thing on my own.

Well, it's, yeah, it's interesting you say that.

Like, I don't know, even when I was kind of thinking about really moving forward with this one guy and trying to like try out exclusivity, I like, I all of a sudden had this thought and I was like, yes, okay, like, I think I can really try and like, there's a lot of potential here, but also like, I live in a small town, kind of an hour away from like the bigger city, and I'm going to move to that city soon so that I can like be by the mountains and do a bunch of snowboarding and whatnot and like going back to school.

And there's all these things that I kind of, I really envisioned going into this era of my life as a single person.

I don't know, like, I feel like that's what's meant for right now.

And kind of like you said, I'm holding it with open arms.

Like, I'm kind of like okay i am enjoying being single right now but i'm open to the possibility of being in a relationship for sure but finally in a place where i don't feel like i need one and that's very refreshing and i honestly think that came from just like really growing in confidence like i can't like the difference between now and a few years ago like i also think came from like I don't know, getting medicated for anxiety.

That kind of like changed a lot in my world.

And I feel like, yeah, just gave me a lot more confidence as a person, which is great.

Everything you've said, I love.

Like, I, I, I genuinely think you're like, you're, you're the example of when you look back at your life, you're like, I experienced life to its fullest.

So I think you're on the right path.

I love that.

Thank you.

I think as long as you move forward with open arms, like keep do it, keep putting yourself first.

You have all the confidence in the world.

And then if that right person comes along and it feels right, then go for it.

Like, I really think you're.

you're doing everything perfect for you.

Oh, thank you.

And so I guess, I don't know, I'd love to know if you guys have thoughts too around like, because as I've said, like I, there is this like deep religious like shame.

And it's so interesting because now I'm this person where I'm like, my frontal lobe is fully developed now.

And I, I know what I think about like interpretations of scripture and whatnot.

I feel like totally fine about like exploring my sexuality, but I know that.

people that I would like go to church with would not agree.

So that's hard because I like church is still something that I loved.

Like as I said, I'm still a person who like believes in the teachings of what I believe Jesus was was someone who like cared about minorities, cared about the oppressed and for women and stuff like that.

I'm like, that's the person that I loved.

So I'm kind of like, should I feel weird about like still wanting to enjoying parts of church while I'm like living this other life?

Or maybe I just need to explore other churches.

I don't know.

I don't practice anymore.

I mean, and I'm someone who used to go to church every Sunday into my.

30s.

Yeah.

That being said, I mean, my opinion is like,

I think, yeah, listen, the reason why I was generally turned off by religion is because I think humans are obnoxious people who weaponize religion to their own benefit.

A hundred percent.

And that's what I mean when I say like the American evangelicalism.

I really

have a problem with that.

For sure.

You believe in God.

You also know you're not him, right?

Or her.

Whatever.

So, like, you know, just, I don't know, not to sound corny, but like, just do what you think is in your heart.

And at the end of the day, when you're, when your time's up, so to speak, you'll find out how you did it.

But in the meantime, just, you know, be a good person and prioritize your character.

Your decisions matter in your life.

Kind of to that point, my biggest gripe with very religious people,

let's say this lump of them in, like, especially Christian, I'm more familiar with Christianity and Christianity has like the seven deadly sins.

And a lot of those people are very dogma, uh, dogmatic about like things like sex or whatever, but they conveniently forget how pride, for example, is like one of the seven deadly sins.

And it's just like, humans aren't going to judge you.

Well, I mean, humans will judge you, but their judgment doesn't matter.

That's that's it.

Their judgment doesn't matter.

Find your thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You, you, like, look at yourself from probably when in your 20s when you were at your most religious and you said you were

yeah, and you like you weren't that happy with where you were, it sounds like.

And now you're much happier in who you are and you're less religious.

That doesn't mean you're guilty of anything.

It doesn't matter if people are judging you.

It's what matters inside.

Like you are at the best place you've ever been.

And most of that shame comes from people because they will use that, again, weaponize it because, and may say something to you or look at you a certain way.

Maybe they don't approve of your lifestyle.

But at the end of the day, happy people don't spend their energy judging others all that much.

You know,

certainly like, you know.

So maybe it is a new church.

If all these people, yeah, if these people are annoying you and judging you,

maybe like the physical church of the people, but like, if I ever go back to church, I'm going to go back to Catholic church.

Right.

And now there's a lot of things that I don't necessarily like subscribe to or believe in, or I'm certainly not going to change really anything about, I'm very comfortable with what I think about is my right or wrong.

Like I have my compass, right?

And so if I, if, honestly, if Nanie and I go start going back to church, it would mostly be because like kids and like community and things like that.

Yeah.

I'm very comfortable with what I know is right or wrong for me.

And I think that's all that really matters.

And like, I don't know, as I gotten older and the reason why I stopped going to church, I just got a little bit less out of it.

So, it's more of that, you know, like you'll have your own relationship.

I think, you know, when we're younger and we're taught religion, it's very much what our parents teach us, and this kind of totally.

And we do things because we think we're supposed to do it this way.

And we're told if you don't, something's going to happen.

And you get older and you realize that's, I don't know, that kind of sounds like bullshit.

Yes.

But your desire to have a connection with a higher power, I don't think if that makes you feel good, don't run from that.

And you will find your path that fits you.

And,

you know, no religion is going to, you know, unless you make your own, you know, so like,

should just do your thing.

Care about your character.

Yeah.

And as long as you prioritize your character and how you treat yourself and treat others, I think that's what matters most.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

Well, hopefully this was helpful.

Yeah.

No, this was great.

All right.

Thanks for the chat.

Awesome.

Well, yeah, thanks so much, you guys.

Great to meet you both.

Awesome.

You too.

See it.

Bye-bye.

Yeah, I definitely related to the

20s and 30s.

Yeah.

No, she's great.

She was like, I was like, what's this year?

She seems so confident.

She would just want to talk things to you.

I would hang out with her in a Harvey.

I definitely related to like, yeah, I think you can still.

Especially the, I don't know if you're religious at all, but yeah.

As someone who used to be and not much anymore.

Because people can get a lot of good things out of religion if that's the thing

without being shamed.

Because again, it's this human being.

And she was still involved in the church in some capacity.

I didn't know what, like, if she just went to church or if she worked in church.

No, because a lot of people who are also part of the church will hold

small judgments.

Yeah, these little like

people will use religion to feel better about themselves.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, she sounded like she just had so much growth in her life in the last 10 years and stuff.

I think she just needed a check-in to

make sure she's she's on it.

She totally was.

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Terms apply.

That follows.

How's it going?

Good.

My name's Taylor.

I'm 33 and I'm dating a man who has a crazy baby mama.

All right.

Tell us about this relationship that you're in.

And is it his ex-wife?

It is an ex-wife.

They were together for over 10 years.

They've been divorced for two years now.

Okay.

I'm the person that he's seriously dated since they've been separated.

How long were they separated for?

It's been two years that they've been separated.

How long have you guys been dating for?

It's very fresh.

It's only been three months.

How are you already feeling the impact of his ex?

ex um so they have three kids together and they are 50-50 custody they're very involved with each other consistently when we started dating he explained to me that they had a very close-knit relationship because they were co-parenting so closely they were friends they got along They did things together, which I was totally fine with, no issues there.

But I've been on speakerphone when she's called him and she calls him quite often and would call him for things outside of the kids.

And that was kind of weird to me.

Do you have like an example?

An example would be she would call him and she would ask him to help her with things around the house all the time.

Like, can you take my trash out?

He would like mow the lawn for her and she would just call him and be like, hey, what size trash bags do you use?

Since we've been dating, he said that it's gotten worse.

But to add on context to that, she's always had a boyfriend since they've been separated and she's very dependent on men for what he's told me.

And they broke up the same week that we started dating.

And so he's, she's been reaching out to him more and needing more things from him.

And what conversations have the two of you had about his ex-wife?

So like I would be on speakerphone, she would answer, he would answer her and she would kind of snap on him and be very abrasive and rude and, you know, ask inappropriate things to me for a relationship that's just for the kids co-parenting.

So I brought it up to him that it kind of made me uncomfortable that he didn't have great boundaries with her and if we were going to move forward into a serious relationship he would need to set boundaries with her around that which leading into he did have that conversation with her and it did not go well were you were you there when he had that conversation no no i told him i don't want to be a part of any of that i want you to handle that with her and so you know it didn't go up because he just told you that he told me okay so she basically was like well you can get the f out of my house then and was threatening to take him back to court for child child support.

Because right now they don't do child support.

It's 50-50.

They cut everything half and half.

He has him 50% of the time.

She has him 50% of the time.

So to your understanding, what did he say to her?

To my understanding, he told her he's not the person for her to go to for her day-to-day needs.

They are co-parenting.

That's it.

Is your issue more with him in this?

Or is it like you just want to avoid a sticky situation?

Or is it with his ex that you have the issue with?

I don't have an issue with him.

I think he's handling it appropriately.

i trust him wholly i don't think that there's anything going on with him and her she just has poor boundaries and there's more to the story than just this um like what so he and her were actually hooking up after their divorce i ended up finding out how'd you find out so it just kind of came up in conversation just based on the way that she was acting i asked him she seemed kind of jealous and a little bit like she was trying to keep control in the situation.

And I said, have y'all ever hooked up post-divorce?

And he was like, Yeah.

And I was like, Okay, when was the last time y'all hooked up?

And he said, January of this year.

And I was like, Y'all have been divorced for two years and you're still like, and in that time, she had boyfriends.

Like she cheated on two of her long-term serious relationships since they divorced with him multiple times.

Yeah, that's a huge red flag for you.

No, it is.

And it upset me a lot.

I was under this impression that you guys had a civil boundaried relationship.

You told me that there was nothing between you.

and then finding that out later is very upsetting to me i feel like i was owed that information from the get-go i would have seen it as a major red flag there's also a green flag hidden there though like he's super honest from what he's said so far like he has those conversations on speakerphone with you he's not he's not yeah he's not trying to hide anything when you asked him he told you so there's a lot of green flags in there too that's the thing is he is a giant walking green flag like he is so transparent and so honest and that's why he's had me so involved with her in the situation is because he knows the history between them two.

And he wants me to be super involved.

So I'm not uncomfortable with it.

But it's an uncomfortable situation.

Well, from what I'm hearing, like best case, maybe he's just like, he really is a great, great guy who has a really toxic ex.

But that is, for better or worse, this is the part that sucks, is that like he is attached to this woman for the next, how many years?

Because of the kids.

My guess is like you're probably, you're both, I mean, I'm sure he's a swell guy, and maybe he's got some trauma from his divorce, which would be understandable, but he's not totally honest.

I mean, like, he, there's a, well, he hasn't really lied yet.

And well, if she, if he said to her, there's bad.

There's nothing, sure.

But if he said there's nothing between us.

Well, at the same time, it's like, what's worse, a guy who's still involved, like, he is willing to help his baby mama.

It's like he's, he's, he wants to do things like help her and stuff like that.

That's better than kicking her to the curb.

Totally.

So, like, maybe he is a good guy.

He needs to set boundaries, like you said.

So, I guess the question is, because he tried to set boundaries, and then she got this very toxic response that included some threats.

Yeah, and that's the thing: it doesn't end there.

She broke up with that guy and they got back together.

And he's telling me that she has this mentality that she wants us all to be this happy, like co-parenting family that all hangs out together.

And she's invited us to go hang out with her and her boyfriend and she tries to she wants us to all go like trick-or-treating together and i've told him that that does i am not comfortable doing that like i feel terrible being in this guy's face knowing she's cheated on him with him and he doesn't know and we're all pretending like nothing happened i don't want to implicate myself in that that's the least of your concern because like obviously i think we all agree that her intentions behind this pod that she's trying to create are for only her benefit

she's super manipulative.

And when he tells her no and tries to set boundaries, she always comes back and threatens him with things with the kids like, okay, well then I'm not going to do this for you anymore.

And we're just going to go to court and I'm going to go for children.

What is she doing for him?

Some of the things are like, so his job, he can't take the kids to school because he has to be up early.

So she goes in the morning to his house and gets the kids ready, takes them to school.

He goes, takes the kids to her house in the afternoons.

They have agreements where it works out for both of of their schedules.

Is she just gonna stop taking her kids to school?

She's gonna basically say, Figure it out.

It's not my problem.

If you set the boundaries or like, hey, I like you.

I want to stay in this, but I will not talk to this girl.

I don't want her in this life.

Would you step up and help with the kids?

For me, it's like our relationship is very fresh.

Yeah.

And it's insane that I'm having all these things thrown at me with her.

I don't think these conversations are even inappropriate.

We've been together for like three months.

So that, yeah, my question is: like, good guy or not, is it, is this, is this situation worth it?

I do think it is worth it.

I mean, like, I've never been treated as well as he has.

Like, I, like, she totally, she totally messed up letting him go, like, honestly.

Like, maybe so.

Do you think he is strong enough to deal with his ex-wife?

I think he is.

You're very helpless in this situation.

And to your point, it's not even really your problem or, you know, to fix.

It really comes down to how is he going to handle this?

And again, depending on how toxic she really is, then the question is, is her bark worse than her bite?

A lot of people just say shit, you know, it wouldn't shock me if she, you know, she's probably very used to just being loud and being messy and making threats.

And most of the time, it's, you know, a lot of times you're just like,

it's just easier not to argue with you and I just fucking do it, you know.

But now that he met you and you seem to have a good thing going with him and you guys hopefully are mutually excited about this relationship, if he's serious about pursuing something with you he really is gonna have to put his foot down you're are you the first serious girlfriend he's had since the divorce yes right so like up into this point she's had this year year and a half of kind of having her cake and eat it too she's dated other men your boyfriend you know rightfully so probably had some trauma from the relationship i mean we've all had sex with our exes i don't think you really have anything to worry about in terms of like whether he misses her or still has feelings i think it's just easy to have sex with your ex there's a comfort there but she's been able to like, you know, do the whole thing.

I don't want you, but I still want you to want me.

And I, you know, I may not want to be with you.

I may not want to be married to you, but I still want to control you.

And I still want to feel like I have power over you.

And you are a symbol of things really changing for her.

And if you're right, were the fact that maybe there's some regret on her part for letting him go, you are very much a reminder of that.

And you make it real.

Because up until the point that you entered the equation, there may be been a subconscious part of her that thought, well, maybe I can always get back together with him.

You know, he hasn't found, he hasn't replaced me, and you are a replacement for that.

I also like, I know, I asked, like, if you would step in with the kids, but and it's been three months.

So I'm like,

I understand it's so fresh, but from his perspective, it's scary too, because he has this system in place that's working, and he's got this crazy ex that he's trying to push away, but she's coming back.

It's like, where it needs to progress somehow.

Like, I guess, like, by you setting boundaries, that's great.

But he needs to figure out if she blows up, what's going to happen to me?

Like, what's going to happen with the kids?

And that's very scary for him.

He sounds like a good guy and he wants the best for his kids.

So, so it's just three months is just a hard spot.

It seems like you guys are in such a good place, but it's a very delicate, like, delicate situation you're in.

If we were to kind of like workshop these scenarios out or like role play, right, in a sense, like question number one to Dylan's point, it's just like, how crazy is this chick?

You know, if he puts his foot down, chooses you like he should and needs to to pursue a relationship with you, is she going to choose the nuclear option, take him back to court, withhold kids from him, just be really messy and toxic?

Where good guy or not, she is in a position to make his life a living hell.

And he knows that.

Yeah.

Like,

even if it's a 1% chance, he's like, this could happen.

And it's scary.

And that's, and like, if, if she goes nuclear, that's just,

the hope is that, like, she's, her bark is worse than her bite.

And most people, that's the case.

Like, she sounds like an emotional bully, right?

Who's just used to doing that?

And sometimes bullies just need to be like told no.

And he's going to have to really put his foot down.

My guess is, up until this point, her making threats has worked.

It's been effective.

He's whether it's that 1% you talked about, he was just more like, yeah, whatever, fine, you know, like peace.

You know, he's chosen to be happy over being right with her up until this point.

And now, if he prioritizes your happiness, he can't prioritize hers anymore or hit as much.

So then scenario two is can he set these boundaries and just tell her no and see if she just adjusts and gets over it and and kind of realize this is the new normal and

and then maybe in the future there's a path for like are you like willing to have coffee with this chick to be like hey like how do we get actually get along well that's my real like question.

As of right now, I don't care to be her friend based on the way that she's behaving.

And like, I don't want to reward.

I don't want to reward her toxic behavior.

I don't want to be like, she's throwing a tantrum.

So let me just give in and try to meet up with her and be her friend.

Cause like he's been talking to her about all this and saying like, she's not ready to be your friend.

We're early in our relationship.

She knows that she looks like a crazy baby mama.

And she's like, I don't want her to think I'm just some crazy baby mama.

But then she.

throws these fits every time he sets boundaries with her and it pushes me even more so away when I hear the things that she says and the way that she talks to him.

I think it's perfectly okay.

Sorry, sorry to cut you off.

I think it's perfectly okay that you set that boundary that you don't want to see talk to her.

I like, I think that is so acceptable.

He also doesn't have to like debrief you on every crazy thing she says.

I've told him, like, I don't care to see the text messages.

I don't care to like go into details about every little thing.

I don't need to know every little thing.

You just need to know that he's prioritizing you, that he is comfortable telling this woman no when she asks him to like mow her lawn.

Because that's a test.

It's all a test.

She just wants to see what she can get him to do.

And it's going in the right direction.

Yeah.

Like it's not falling backwards like he's over at her house every day doing a new chore.

Like it's like, as long as it's moving in the right direction and progressing and he's prioritizing you, I think that's...

That's the next step.

And I think sometimes the hard part, I think, in situations like these is him getting comfortable, knowing that he doesn't have to explain why to her all the time.

He can just tell her no because the why is obvious.

They're divorced.

You're not my wife anymore.

That's the why.

So, anytime she's just like, can you do this for me?

Can you do that?

Like, the why is I have a new girlfriend in my life.

Yeah, you know, moved on.

And I think right now, being a good guy that he is and wanting to be empathetic and things like that, he probably always wants to talk her off the ledge and always wants to like make sure she's okay.

And that is coming from a good place, probably.

But he just has to learn that no is sufficient enough for her.

And then she's just going to have to like deal with it.

Yeah, if he's been taking care of her for 10 years, it's a hard switch to turn on, to be like, no, I'm just going to let her drown.

So it's like he still wants to help, but how can he just be better?

And it's probably a work in progress.

And yeah, there's a good chance all this behavior from her is just that it's, it works and that, and that she won't choose the nuclear option.

And

then she knows she fucked up yeah and because the nuclear option is gonna hurt her and it's gonna hurt her kids so the question is like how shitty of a person is she potentially or is she just a little crazy going through a very tumultuous time in her life where she maybe has some regret about her choice and now she's living in it but yeah it's listen like no matter what like maybe he's worth it but this is definitely a messy situation for you with a lot of unpredictable variables.

I'm a risk taker, right?

I've become more of a risk taker in my life, but I'm a huge believer in being upfront and honest with yourself about the risks you're taking you know and that's okay you know what is the fallout of these risks you know don't take the risk and pretend that you're not taking a risk and acting like everything happens for a reason and this is meant to work out you know like i think you have to acknowledge that this is this has some messiness to it and there are variables at play outside of your control and there's a world where six or 12 months from now things get real messy that that ultimately could affect this relationship and you have no control over it.

And I think that's just important for you to acknowledge.

I'm not trying to convince you to like leave it, but I think it's just something to just check in with yourself.

Yeah.

I just, it's like a picture in my head.

I'm like envisioning him just balancing this shitty situation he got himself into.

And it's like, if he pushes too far in one direction, it's just going to fall apart.

So I think it's like giving him a little grace that it's not going to fix itself and just become perfect right away.

It's got to be a progress.

And like, otherwise the house of cards will collapse.

Yeah, I don't want to make the situation worse on him.

Like if I'm going to benefit the situation by just like meeting her and being fake nice, because I don't know if like me constantly avoiding her is making the situation worse and that tension is building.

Because like just the other day, they had this conversation where he's setting boundaries with her and then she sends me a friend request on social media.

I would like my two senses to not get involved.

I think the further she is removed from the situation, the better, because then she, as soon as you enter the equation, she's going to start manipulating you.

And it sounds like she knows how to manipulate.

I think it's just how can you, we slowly remove her from this conversation.

You have to be very good about knowing the why behind the choices you're making in the situation because it'd be very easy for you to be petty.

and to get frustrated at her and to react out of frustration, right?

So I think step one is to like make sure you're aligned with your partner partner and be like, hey, listen, I really like where this is going.

I know this is a tough situation.

You have my support.

How can I support you in this difficult situation?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Like when it comes to dealing with your ex-wife, like all I want to do is like not escalate a situation.

So like help me help you.

And like, you know her better than I do.

Like, that's all I want to do.

Right.

And then like, just she's going to give you a lot of opportunities to want to react out of spite and to not do things you know and to to stoop to her level and get it sucked in the drama and you're gonna you're gonna have to challenge yourself to just be the bigger person you know what i'm saying so it's this like turn the other cheek and things like that and just like yeah kill her with kindness be nice she's gonna want to pull you into the drama and you're gonna have to on a regular basis be like Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?

Like, what's the least dramatic response to this situation?

And what's the response that's just best for me and him and and not she deserves you know like you know because she's gonna it's gonna be so easy yeah because in that balancing act we talked about the worst case scenario the best case scenario probably for your boyfriend is like yeah everyone's all loves each like everyone's happy like we still like the kids are around you guys are friends like that is a possibility 100 you know what you know she wants to hang out with you uh because you know what she's gonna do i guarantee it she's gonna like casually talk about them when they were dating together.

Oh, God.

She'd be like, you remember that time where we were bum ba-ba and we're like, oh my god, it was so,

you know, like, yeah, avoid.

It's, I guarantee it's gonna happen.

I think, again, this three months in, like, I, there's no point in talking to her right now.

It sounds like you and your boyfriend are in a great place together and he's got to work through some

stuff.

So I wouldn't talk.

I like, I wouldn't rule it out forever.

I wouldn't say, like, I'm never going to talk to this girl.

But, like, for right now, I don't think it's healthy.

Yeah, I feel like she is going through a mental crisis right now yeah you're the crisis you know like yeah yeah i guess so because he said that pre-divorce she never drank like she never acted this way and post-divorce all this behavior is kind of new and it's since i've came around it's obviously she had a bit of a midlife crisis and then again you you were

Because she's the, she's, she asked for the divorce?

I'm assuming.

I think so.

Because he, he's the type to like work it out.

He's an all-in kind of guy.

When he's in, he's in.

Well,

if she asked for divorce, things never really got real until you showed up.

Yeah.

You know, because up until that point, he was still there for her.

You know, she had her cake in it, too.

She was still having sex with him.

She was dating other men.

And that's all different now.

Yeah,

and I think, again, if she's in that mental clarity, like you don't want that in your life.

Like,

this should be fun for you to be with your boyfriend.

And bringing in that negative energy into your life isn't something that you are signing up for right now.

He's got to lead the charge and quarterback the situation with his ex-wife, and you have to support him.

I think things get real messy and toxic when I think a lot of people in your position would tell him how he's supposed to handle his ex-wife and then tell him how what he's supposed to do to make you feel like the more you can make him feel supported and again, just keep your away from the drama, the better.

Yeah, I really strongly believe that.

Don't fall in the trap of making him feel like he's picking you.

I mean, that should, obviously, you want to feel that way, but he needs to control this situation.

He needs to speak to her, set the boundaries, enforce the boundaries, and then make you feel comfortable that he's doing that in a way that you both have communicated makes you feel safe and secure in this relationship.

Yeah, I think he's just been going back and forth with her too much rather than just being like, this is how it is.

And that's it.

Because she's very persistent.

When she wants something she just doesn't stop yeah um she's brought the same conversation up multiple times yeah he's gonna have to get good at ignoring her a little bit and that's gonna be a little uncomfortable for him because it's gonna be scary because she's making threats right now so there is it's just not something that that's gonna change overnight but as long as it's progressing in the right direction like as long as he keeps those boundaries and is slowly backing away, I think that's a good sign is he can't jump all out at once right now because it's just too scary.

Yeah, I feel like it can hold off all of this, me being involved with her until like we're maybe talking about like moving in together where I'm going to be around her kids all the time.

I don't see why this even needs to be really hashed out right now.

Yeah, honestly.

Make sure you two are on the same page.

Yeah.

for sure and it's like everything you said it's a it's a a tough situation but he sounds like you guys have a great thing going like it really does like it sounds like you you see a lot of amazing qualities in him, and he's feeling love for the first time, probably in a long time.

So, it sounds like it's worth pursuing.

No, yeah, for sure.

I mean, I wasn't expecting all of this, honestly, but yeah, I mean, I've probably dealt with worse situations, so I'm not

that worried about it.

I think we'll be okay.

Well, hopefully, this was helpful.

Yes, it was.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

All right.

Well, thanks for the call.

Keep us posted.

We'd love to know what happens in the future with this.

I'll try my best.

All right.

Take care.

All right.

Well, it's a lot of fun, man.

Yeah, I hope you enjoyed it.

It was cool.

That was like the beginning of a lifetime movie.

I hope it doesn't turn into a lifetime movie.

Yeah, I hope

that it's

divorce is messy, man.

Sometimes, you know, life happens and every relationship is hard.

Especially now when we have River, like,

I'm very grateful right now I'm in a relationship where we fight hard for our relationship because like when you, especially when kids are involved, it's sad.

It's so sad when you see, and like, sometimes, you know, it's people are better off not together, but it's tough when kids are involved and you get these messy relationships.

It's all just added layers to everything.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming, man.

I really appreciate you.

This was super fun on the rest of the way of Dancing with the Stars.

I'm expecting you in the finals.

I hope.

This cast is so talented.

It's insane.

It's like...

Just remember, it's not all about the talent.

Yeah.

No, for me, I'm...

Just remember remember to smile.

Dude, I know you already told me.

For me, I just want to keep improving.

That's it.

Don't forget to have fun.

Having fun, improving, just like it's so damn fun.

It is one of the fun.

It's been fun to watch you, man.

You're crushing it.

And

yeah, man, I appreciate you.

No, I'm still got to catch up.

I appreciate you guys listening, too.

Don't forget to send your questions at asknick at the vilefiles.com.

If you want to call in and have a question for us, Dylan is going to be the first of we'll have an occasional special guest for Ask ASNIC because I know you guys enjoyed having that from time to time.

But thanks for listening.

We will see you back tomorrow.

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