E1026 Ask Nick - The Parent-Child Connection

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Speaker 2 You guys, huge news. Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson are in a new movie together.
Yeah, you heard me right. The Jennifer Lawrence and the Robert Pattinson.

Speaker 2 Katniss and Edward on screen together in a movie together. It's incredible.
It's called Die, My Love.

Speaker 2 They play a hopeful young couple who move to the middle of nowhere with a new baby and things start to unravel. Again, that's Jay Law and R.
Pats in a movie together married in a toxic relationship.

Speaker 2 Plus, it's from the studio that brought you the substance. So you know you're going to want to see it.
Go. That's right.
Go right now. Make your plans now.
Go see Die My Love.

Speaker 2 Visit movie.com slash die my love for showtimes and tickets. Only in theaters November 7th.
That's mu B I dot com slash die my love.

Speaker 1 Visit movie.com slash die my love for showtimes and tickets. That's mu B I dot com slash die my love.

Speaker 1 You're crazy.

Speaker 2 What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of Ask Nick. Now, I know we usually get to write to our callers lately, but we have a written.
This is all Mary. Yeah.

Speaker 2 She came to me and said, Nick, we have a written that I want to read on the show. We tried, you tried, obviously, I mean, we tried to get the person to call in, but

Speaker 6 screened my email, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2 They didn't get back to to us. No.
Yeah, you'd be surprised how much that happens. A lot of people obviously call in, but sometimes it doesn't happen.
But it's a written that Mary said we have to.

Speaker 2 So take it away, Mary. I'm excited to hear it.

Speaker 6 So the headline is: my fiancé bet his engagement ring on a turtle race. Should I call off the wedding?

Speaker 2 A turtle race? A turtle race. Is that a real thing?

Speaker 6 Yeah, they do it in Vanderpump Rules. There was an episode about it where they go, I went to the bar that they did it in Vandenpump Rules to see a turtle race.
And

Speaker 6 it's fine. I didn't really enjoy it.
It was really crowded. And yeah, it was like drunk guys betting on turtle races.
And I was just like, this is not my thing.

Speaker 6 So I understand where this color is coming from.

Speaker 6 So she wrote in and said, I've got a crazy one for you. My fiancé has, for a long time, been into sports betting.

Speaker 6 It started normal, fantasy football, a basketball game here and there, nothing unusual. It's never been my thing.
And he never put enough money into it for me to be concerned about.

Speaker 6 Recently, however, things have changed. A friend of his brought him to a bar that does turtle racing, which is apparently a thing.

Speaker 6 People bet on these turtles and he's become so infatuated with it that I don't even know who he is anymore. He's been bringing me to this bar and I just don't understand it.

Speaker 6 For the most recent race, he got incredibly drunk and bet his engagement ring on his favorite turtle.

Speaker 2 Luckily, does it say how much the ring was worth? No. Well, let's assume that.
A lot, I'm guessing. A meaningful amount, let's just say, right?

Speaker 6 A meaningful amount, and he's willing to bet it on a turtle. Anyway, luckily, the turtle he bet on, Todd, the turtle's name was Todd, won.

Speaker 2 Do they have names?

Speaker 6 Yeah, they name the turtles. Anyway, the turtle he bet on Todd won, so he was able to keep the ring, but this is the last straw.

Speaker 6 I don't even know who he is anymore, and I feel like he is more invested in these turtles than our own relationship.

Speaker 6 Not for nothing, I've brought up how I feel uncomfortable with the fact that these turtles have no choice in the matter when it comes to them racing. I don't feel like the bar owners treat them well.

Speaker 6 All of it is really bad, and I'm wondering if this is something I should call off the wedding over. Anyway, I would love to get your thoughts on this.
Tanya. That's wild.

Speaker 2 This is a problem.

Speaker 2 This is a problem.

Speaker 6 It's an issue for sure.

Speaker 2 Well, you have to assume that

Speaker 2 it didn't start with the turtles. No.
And sports betting can be a lot of fun, anything, everything in moderation, but like I certainly have had some friends who have taken it too far.

Speaker 2 And usually when it gets to that point, there tends to be some secrets.

Speaker 2 And like, you know, when it comes to engagement, it's always that weird period in a relationship, especially before marriage, where it's like your money's still your money and her money's still his money.

Speaker 2 And it's not like most people.

Speaker 2 are that way and assuming they're going to have like a traditional marriage where they will combine finances that he is not setting a healthy precedent of like kind of that open communication just talking about finances making decisions together so like there's a definitely a valid concern there i mean damn i mean listen i i hope she doesn't have to end a relationship over it.

Speaker 2 I would definitely get him to admit that this is a problem. That, like, he needs to recognize that despite Todd crossing the finish line first, that, like, this can't happen again.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 She needs to, like, almost police him a little bit. When he goes out, she needs to go out with him and maybe suggest some things.

Speaker 2 I don't know, like a movie or something, something simple, something they can do together. Yeah.
Maybe go see, like, I don't know. Are there new movies coming out?

Speaker 6 Ooh, do you know one movie that's coming out soon that I'm like really excited about? That would kind of be perfect. Dime I Love.
It's the Robert Penson, um, Jennifer Lawrence movie.

Speaker 2 Jennifer Lawrence.

Speaker 2 That looks actually, that looks really good. I love that movie.

Speaker 6 The acting looks incredible in it, and just the performances, the direction. I feel like this is a movie that will make you like feel better about your relationship.

Speaker 2 Have Robert and Jennifer ever performed together?

Speaker 6 No, this is the first time.

Speaker 2 Katniss and Edward coming together, two iconic franchises, battling it out. Now in love.

Speaker 6 Now in love. And plus, it's a movie movie.
Moobie is the studio that did the substance, which also banger, awesome movie.

Speaker 2 Psychological thriller again, starring Demi Moore.

Speaker 6 Demi Moore, Margaret Quayley, yeah. So Mubi is great.
So I'm really, really, really excited for it.

Speaker 2 May the odds forever be in your favor. They're not in Tanya's favor right now.

Speaker 6 No, but maybe if she goes and brings her fiancé to this movie, they'll realize what they have together.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Well, Tanya, if you're listening, go see a movie with your fiancé.

Speaker 2 When does Die My Love come out?

Speaker 6 Die My Love, let me see,

Speaker 6 comes out November 7th. Okay, so Tanya, here's what you need to do.
On November 7th, go get your tickets. You can go to movie.com slash die my love for any showtimes, any tickets you want.

Speaker 6 And you need to bring your fiancé to this movie.

Speaker 6 I do think that singing Die My Love could save your relationship.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and honestly, I actually really want to see that movie. So maybe you'll see Natalie and I in the theaters together.
And if you do, you can, I want to meet Tanya.

Speaker 2 And I want to meet this guy who's,

Speaker 2 you know, like, if you see us, point, be like, call him turtle boy. Turtle boy.
Oh, my God. All jokes aside, I mean, seriously, Tanya, you do, you definitely need to have a conversation with this guy.

Speaker 2 I don't think we're at the breakup stage yet, but I, I think you need to address this before you say I do, so to speak. But it looks like a great movie.
I'm going to go check it out. You should.

Speaker 2 All right. Well,

Speaker 2 that was certainly a doozy, Mary.

Speaker 2 Hopefully, you can get her to call in.

Speaker 6 I'll do my best. I'm going to be on that email chain.

Speaker 2 Well, speaking of callers, we have some good ones, and now it's time to get to our first one.

Speaker 2 How's it going? Hey, Nick. How can I help?

Speaker 4 I am calling because

Speaker 4 I've been having an issue with obsessively kind of looking at my daughter's stepmother's social media because I'm aware that she's posting things that are I find to be kind of antagonizing directed towards me.

Speaker 4 So I want to know how I can kind of gain the self-control to possibly stop looking at it and or not let it affect me if I do?

Speaker 2 Well, tell me a little bit about the relationship

Speaker 2 your daughter has with her stepmom or what your current dynamic is right now.

Speaker 4 Her father and I had shared 50-50 custody up until the end of last year, and she is a teenager. She's almost 15 and has, you know, she's been going back and forth since she was two.

Speaker 4 And so given the contention between the two homes,

Speaker 4 she had decided decided that she wanted to live in either one place or another, kind of have, you know, relationships with everybody ongoing, but kind of have one more stable home.

Speaker 4 And so we went through the court process. And in the end, it ended up that I

Speaker 4 allowed, you know, signed an agreement to allow her to live with him full time because that's what she wanted.

Speaker 4 And also, you know, for the sake of my

Speaker 4 peace and my ability to kind of move forward with my life and leave that, all of that, those those issues behind with them that were there.

Speaker 2 I imagine that was difficult for you to do?

Speaker 4 It was incredibly hard. Yeah.
I mean, I had my daughter full-time for the first two years of her life. And then, like I said, you know, 50% of the time moving forward.

Speaker 4 And so to go from, you know, having her four nights a week to not was incredibly hard.

Speaker 2 And then what is going on with

Speaker 2 stepmom that makes you feel like, yeah, like, what is she doing that's upsetting to you?

Speaker 4 So after that agreement was reached in December, I decided because I had the ability. I'd lived in one place my whole life.
Like I said, I'm 40.

Speaker 1 I had the ability to go.

Speaker 4 I'm a nurse. I wanted to travel nurse and ended up moving permanently across the country.

Speaker 4 I do still.

Speaker 4 You know, my daughter and I are in contact daily. I support her financially.
I've asked to see her and have, you know, court given rights to see her.

Speaker 4 But there have been things like accusations of child abandonment and things like that on social media. I find them to be antagonistic.

Speaker 4 It may not be the way that she's intending them, but, you know, things that are going on with my daughter, kind of like a look what you're missing out on kind of thing.

Speaker 4 The child accusation, those, those types of things are, you know, factual, just false and like incorrect.

Speaker 4 But it's, I don't know why, given that I've literally moved across the country, you know, and tried to put space there literally and figuratively, why

Speaker 4 she's so consumed with obviously wanting to upset me.

Speaker 4 And in turn, what I can do, you know, to, I know that I can't control her and what she does, but what I can do to try to move forward and let that go.

Speaker 2 I imagine, yeah, I imagine

Speaker 2 you said, like, I don't know why she's, you know, consumed with me and things like that. We could guess, right? You know, does your ex-husband and her share any children together?

Speaker 4 They have a three-year-old son.

Speaker 4 and to add more context to it i mean they've been married three years and she and i have never been allowed to meet or even have a conversation or a text like what do you mean i'm not allowed to meet i've asked him multiple times and his response to me has been um there would be no benefit to

Speaker 2 you meeting her okay well seems odd that's unfair because i imagine

Speaker 2 benefit or not in her mind. And even though he now has full custody as a parent, I imagine you would want to just have met the person who is helping raising your child.
Right.

Speaker 2 So that's, that's obviously.

Speaker 4 Especially an impressionable teenage girl, you know, and it's another woman that's in the home with her.

Speaker 2 If I were to guess why she might feel this way, you know, it's a relatively new marriage. I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's just like she's, this woman's maybe decided to like, in a way, almost eliminate your existence.

Speaker 2 I think most of us, when we get married, we, we don't imagine getting married to someone who's been married before. We don't imagine having kids with someone who has a kid with someone else.

Speaker 2 Society, in a way, has tainted that idea. So I think sometimes the process it, we do crazy things and make us act out.
That's just a guess, right?

Speaker 2 Of why maybe this woman is handling this situation the way she is.

Speaker 4 That would make sense because so many of the text messages and things that I've gotten were, you know, we this, you know, we've made this decision.

Speaker 4 Like, I felt very kind of pushed out of parenting my own daughter in a way.

Speaker 2 I imagine

Speaker 4 replaced, you know.

Speaker 2 I think it's really important for you, as hard as it is, the why she's doing this is irrelevant for the most part, as long as your daughter is safe.

Speaker 2 And I understand that it'd be easy for you to say to things, well, how do I know if she's safe?

Speaker 2 I haven't met this woman, you know, like, I think sometimes we can make a challenging situation worse and for the sake of being right, convince ourselves we need to be more worried than our instincts tell us.

Speaker 2 What's your relationship? What's What's your daughter's relationship with her stepmom as far as you can tell? They get along well.

Speaker 4 I haven't heard of anything that she's directly done or said to my daughter to negatively impact their relationship.

Speaker 2 I think that's a really positive thing. Your daughter's 14, you said?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 She's old enough. You know, I feel like your daughter's old enough to like.
trust her instincts, right?

Speaker 2 I think you have this, there's this kind of weird mental hurdle of there's a party you probably wants your daughter to hate her, you know, fuck that bitch, you know, kind of thing.

Speaker 2 But obviously, knowing that this woman is, is, is helping raise your daughter deep down for the sake of your daughter, you want your daughter to like this woman. You want her to feel positive.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's got to be reassuring to know that your daughter feels safe around this woman. There, you know, we've all seen Cinderella.
We've seen the wicked stepmother.

Speaker 2 You know, we've seen how women who are married to men who have children with other people or fathers. I mean, mean, that's not a gender thing can truly make those kids' lives miserable, right?

Speaker 2 So like, as much as we are frustrated with this woman, you have to remind yourself that you are grateful that your daughter has a positive relationship with this woman.

Speaker 2 Additionally, you have to try not to care about what this woman is saying about you on Facebook. You said earlier that you talk to your daughter every day.
And that's to me what matters most.

Speaker 2 And since your daughter's 14, she is four years away from being an adult. She is four four years away from possibility going off to college, to moving closer to you than she does her dad and mom.

Speaker 2 You know, she'll be able to do whatever she wants as an adult woman. And I think kids are smart enough.
Like kids don't want to be stuck in the middle of drama with parents.

Speaker 2 And so if I were you, I would do whatever you could to just focus on your connection with your daughter.

Speaker 2 Have there been situations where you have vented your frustrations or in any way made your daughter aware of your feelings towards stepmom?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 There have been instances where I've told my daughter about things that were posted on social media.

Speaker 4 There was one instance where I believed it to be possibly a picture of a journal entry that my daughter had written. It looked very similar to her handwriting.

Speaker 4 I asked my daughter if she had written something in her journal along those lines and she didn't remember doing that. And then it ended up, she confronted her stepmom about it and

Speaker 4 she said, no, I posted that because I saw it online. And it, you know, kind of reflected like how I was feeling that day or something along those lines.

Speaker 4 She's posted pictures of her artwork and things like that online. My daughter, I do feel, has a certain right to privacy.

Speaker 4 And that's where it's really hard for me is when I feel like that's being violated.

Speaker 2 So, one, I just want you to recognize that like you were wrong. You know, it wasn't stepmom posting

Speaker 2 your daughter's journal.

Speaker 2 And since your daughter had to confront stepmom,

Speaker 2 you put your daughter in a very difficult position. And

Speaker 2 while I don't doubt you have every reason to be frustrated with this woman, imagine this woman is probably in her head, she's called you crazy now and conspiratorial and all these things.

Speaker 2 And I imagine like, you know, you would probably share your daughter's artwork on social media if you were proud of it or something like that.

Speaker 2 And I think these are little moments where you have gotten caught up in this drama where you have justified feeling a certain way, which feels incredibly rational and incredibly normal in the moment, right?

Speaker 2 Because like you said, my daughter has a right to privacy. You know, it would be fucked up if stepmom posted private journal messages.

Speaker 2 As this protective mother, It would be very easy for you to like mentally go down this rabbit hole. And I think this is definitely a, do you want to be right? Do you want to be happy?

Speaker 2 I think more than anything, you have to not ever bring up stepmom with your daughter.

Speaker 2 You want to create a safe atmosphere for your daughter to talk to you about everything and anything, including stepmom, if she needs to.

Speaker 2 But right now, especially after this false accusation where she did go and confront stepmom and then ended up being not true, I'm sure that was very dramatic for your daughter.

Speaker 2 And she's not going to want any part of that.

Speaker 2 So I would want, if I were you, to just focus on your connection with your daughter, make it create a safe space for her to share her dreams, her passions, her insecurities.

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, you don't need to like just be her best friend and be so afraid of being a parent that you just become her friend and things like that.

Speaker 2 You can still have boundaries and have, you know, teach her lessons. But like, unless your daughter is coming to you with a reason that you need to be concerned, you're just better off.

Speaker 2 spending the next four years building this foundation with your daughter because four years is nothing to the rest of your and your daughter's life together. And you're only 40, she's 14, you know.

Speaker 2 Hopefully, you guys have another lifetime. Like, you know, you could easily live to your 80 and then some and, you know, knock on wood that you're both, you know, thriving in this world.

Speaker 2 But like, what is four years compared to the rest of your lives?

Speaker 2 But you can do a lot of damage in these four years where you have such animosity towards this woman that your daughter is just like, I can't deal with mom.

Speaker 2 Like we've all had friends in our lives or we've been these people where we just can't get out of our own way, where we're just focusing on what's not working for us.

Speaker 2 And sometimes when it's those friends that we have that like maybe it's an ex that they're just frustrated by or a sibling or a job, you know, at first they come to you and they're frustrated and they vent.

Speaker 2 And you listen, but they, they never can just let shit go. And sometimes we distance ourselves from those people because it's just always drama.

Speaker 2 You don't want your daughter to feel that way about you. And she, you know, like you both, even if, even if you get her to hate stepmom, you could still lose, right?

Speaker 2 Like there is no winning if your daughter feels like she has to pick between two parents. I would focus on being that safe space and just, it's all about your relationship with your daughter.

Speaker 2 Like I would replace the, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy with, do I feel connected connected or disconnected with my daughter you know especially since you are long distance right now from your daughter to me these next four years is doing everything possible to be connected with your daughter to have a bond and and again it's not just being a best friend children want a parent you know they want someone to teach them things to to you can be vulnerable with your mom your daughter about mistakes you've made and maybe relationships,

Speaker 2 the type of relationship you want to have with her.

Speaker 2 Maybe there's been relationships in the past that, you know, you've had that you don't want to replicate, you know, and maybe you can talk with your daughter about that.

Speaker 2 But I would just make it so easy for your daughter to come to you about whatever it is.

Speaker 2 Because again, in four years, she will get to choose who she wants to be around and who she wants to spend time with and who she wants to invest her time with.

Speaker 2 And all of you, you know, your ex-husband, you, and stepmom are going to be replaced by friends. You're going to be replaced by romantic interests and things like that.

Speaker 2 Even kids who come from stable and healthy families, you know, branch out, leave the nest, so to speak. And so I would do whatever you can to

Speaker 2 create an environment that always makes it easy for her to quote unquote come home to mom.

Speaker 2 That you are a person she wants to reach out to when she is going through life and having these struggles.

Speaker 2 And if you make every interaction or some interactions about this other woman, you are losing when it comes to your relationship with your daughter.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, you're right. It's another, it's a better way of like, it's a more applicable to the situation way of saying, like, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, like, again, like, we, I could sit here for the next 10 minutes and we could commiserate about the, it's a shitty situation you're in.

Speaker 2 And I, my heart goes out to anyone who has to make that very difficult decision between like what's best for me and my kids. And like, do we stay together just for the sake of the kids?

Speaker 2 But that's not always the right answer. There's no one wins in those situations.
And so it sucks. Don't make a bad situation worse.

Speaker 2 Again, you only have four more years until she, that you, you really don't have to compete with these people. Your daughter will, she will know.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like she will figure out who's dramatic, who's not.

Speaker 2 If you can go out of your way to never involve your daughter and

Speaker 2 let's say stepmom still has an axe to grind, she'll pick up on that. You can't be the one who tattles on her.
Have you blocked this woman?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 2 Okay, you need to do that. That's the low-hanging fruit.
Get off Facebook. You know, nothing good is on there.

Speaker 2 It's just going to trigger you. And if it ever comes up, if your daughter notices a difference, maybe you block her and she notices it.
Maybe stepmom tattles on you and makes it a dramatic event.

Speaker 2 Oh, she blocks me. Oh my God.
Can you believe she blocked me? And your daughter comes to you and she's like, did you block Janice?

Speaker 2 And you could be like, listen, I, yeah, but, you know, I just, all I care about is my relationship with you.

Speaker 2 And I'm so proud of you. And I want to be there for you.
And I just, I want to have a great relationship with you. And that's your daughter will appreciate that.
Like, if.

Speaker 2 Just don't make her choose.

Speaker 4 Well, that was my next question for you was kind of like, how do I, cause I I know that, you know, you, you and Natalie both have talked on the podcast a lot about how you don't read comments, you don't, you know, stay off the internet and things like that.

Speaker 4 Like, it's, it's hard. Like, that's the obvious answer.
Just don't look at it. But it's hard when you know that somebody is po, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but that is your ego. But like when you can say the obvious answer, but like you're not doing the obvious thing.
The obvious answer doesn't equate to the easy answer. It's just the obvious one.

Speaker 2 And if it's obvious, then you definitely should be doing it. You know what I'm saying? Like, so yeah, I mean, listen, people say the craziest shit about me all the time.

Speaker 2 And I do a good job of not looking. Sometimes things break through whatever filters I have.
And when that happens, as a human being, it bothers me.

Speaker 2 When that, if that happens, don't let your daughter be the person you go to to talk about it with. Your therapist, a friend, whatever.
Def your daughter is the last person.

Speaker 2 that you should go to about whatever shit she talks about you. She is not there to play mediator.
If your daughter, again, has to pick a side, you lose. And it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 And you both can lose, right? And you both can win. You just have, you know,

Speaker 2 as long as your daughter will only have more and more connections in her life. And you should want that for your daughter.
Hopefully there's a romantic interest that she has.

Speaker 2 Hopefully she has many friends. Hopefully she'll have to prioritize many meaningful relationships in her life.
You want that for your daughter.

Speaker 2 We're in a world right now that everyone feels alone because they're making these fake relationships with people online. They don't even know, some of them, which are not even real.

Speaker 2 You know, we're all being radicalized. And so you want your daughter to have meaningful relationships, even if that includes stepmom, right?

Speaker 2 Whatever you and your daughter have as a connection is not taken away by the other connections she has, as long as you have the one that you want with your daughter.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, I mean, like, as a human being, those things are going to happen, but do the obvious things. I mean, it just doesn't matter what they say.

Speaker 2 And listen, as someone, I can have the self-awareness that people who say the craziest shit about me or Natalie or whatever or make these crazy accusations or don't like what we have to say about a reality TV character that they love and call us horrible names and make us.

Speaker 2 horrible accusations about our character because they didn't like something we had to say. Does that bother me if it gets through and I become aware of it? Of course.

Speaker 2 Do I waste emotional energy in my head arguing with a person I don't even know? Yeah, I do because I'm a human being.

Speaker 2 So the only thing to do is to like remind myself that it's not real and to do it whatever I can to not look at it. Sometimes we do this shit just to feel something.
We want to be triggered.

Speaker 2 And we've become so used to being activated online. Yeah, my advice to you is get off.
get off your damn phone, get off your computer, get off Facebook.

Speaker 2 And if you are online, there are filters now in place to like protect your mental health, keywords, you can mute people, you can block people.

Speaker 2 Finally, you know, some of these platforms have done the bare minimum, but like also you can just get off your phone. Yeah.
I would, you know, relationships that matter to us are not online.

Speaker 2 They're just not.

Speaker 4 Well, and obviously this is not a relationship. I don't have a relationship with her.
You know, there was a time where I tried.

Speaker 2 Well, I would actually argue differently. You do.
It's just a very toxic one. And that's, and I think you have to acknowledge that because it is kind of crazy when you think about it.

Speaker 2 You've never met this woman. You're connected through obviously a very special thing, which is your daughter, but there is a relationship there.

Speaker 2 If there wasn't a relationship, you would literally feel nothing. Once you feel something towards something, there is a relationship.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like you, like otherwise, otherwise you would be literally insane. You would be.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 There is something there.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I would just, again, like right now, you're channeling. This is all about your daughter.
Right.

Speaker 2 And because of your desire to have a relationship with your daughter, you have allowed the fear of not being close to your daughter, the fear, you know, it's always hurtful when people say things that aren't true about you, especially when those are like crazy things, you know, you know, it's just like, don't question me as a parent.

Speaker 2 Like one of the most triggering things you can say to a parent is to doubt them as a parent, right? It only matters what your child thinks.

Speaker 4 Well, and I'm just so grateful that I had the first, I mean, because, you know, the first 14 years of her life, like we, I mean, we're still close, but we were extremely, she knows me, you know, she knows who I, who her mom is.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I don't feel like there's anything that could be done or said at this point in her life, other than my own actions, for, you know, to change her mind about that.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I would just, I'll, I, I, just, I want all your emotional energy to come to be about creating an environment that makes your daughter want to call you, that makes her want to like confide in you, to open up to you.

Speaker 2 about whatever it is she wants to open up to and never go to your daughter about complaints about stepmom or or her dad.

Speaker 2 And the more you can demonstrate that, I guarantee you she will, she will pick up on that. And if they don't, that will be their undoing.

Speaker 2 You will win by letting shit go. All right.

Speaker 2 Block her.

Speaker 4 It's more important to be happy than to be right.

Speaker 2 It is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, like, again, like,

Speaker 2 just think about your daughter's 18th birthday. And I really mean that.

Speaker 2 You know, it's just like, because right now, I imagine, you know, because they have legal custody of your daughter, it feels like they have more, they have this power over you.

Speaker 2 And in some ways, there's some truth to that. But four years is going to go by in a blink of an eye.
And there's so much you can do.

Speaker 2 And you're not as powerless as you feel because you do, I mean, your daughter's talking to you. And that is the most, that's the, the best thing possible is that you have that access.

Speaker 2 You can connect with her. You can, she can confide in you.
You can have a relationship at the right time.

Speaker 2 You don't have to make it a thing, but it might go a long way to say to your daughter, hey, listen, about that thing about the journal, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have put you in that position.

Speaker 2 I don't want to get into it, you know, but like I was wrong and I'm really sorry, and that's not fair to you. And again, all I really care is about our relationship.

Speaker 2 You can always come to me if you need my help.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to trust, you know, and I'll let you come to me. Just know that I, you know, I'm always here.
You can tell me anything. And

Speaker 2 I'm sorry. I shouldn't have put you in that position.
I was wrong.

Speaker 4 That's great advice.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you so much, Nick. This has been incredibly helpful.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a difficult situation, but final thoughts is don't undersell how much control you have in this situation, because I feel that a lot of your actions are based off of you acting as if you have very little power or control when it comes to your relationship with your daughter.

Speaker 4 That's very true.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 4 Focus on her and focus on the future.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, take care.
Please give us an update in the future.

Speaker 4 Sounds good. Thank you.
All right.

Speaker 2 Take care. I appreciate you.
Yeah. All right.
Bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Hi, Nick. It's going good.
My name is Jane. I'm 29 and I wrote a letter to my dad 10 years ago and I can't decide if I should bring it up or not.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Like, did he not respond?

Speaker 4 He did not respond.

Speaker 2 Do you have a relationship with your father?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Do you want me to give you some backstory? Yeah, yeah.
So my parents got divorced when I was 15 years old, and my relationship with my dad was pretty good before that.

Speaker 4 We had like a good bonding relationship. We went to concerts together, all of that.
But when I became a teenager and more of an adult, I think it became harder for him to get to know me as an adult.

Speaker 4 And so, my parents got divorced when I was 15. And

Speaker 4 when that happened, my dad kind of went off the radar a little bit and I had a closer relationship with my mom. In therapy, I've been in therapy on an offer, 10 years.

Speaker 4 And in therapy, I learned that it could be important to write him a letter to address the ways that he's hurt me. So I did.

Speaker 4 I wrote him a letter saying, you know, like, I deserve better than what you have been giving me

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 kind of just. talking about how I've grieved our relationship, but I want him to also care care about our relationship.
Fast forward 10 years later, we have a better relationship now.

Speaker 4 He did come to my wedding, which was really great, and I went to his wedding, which was over the summer. So, we have like a very surface-level relationship at the moment.

Speaker 4 Um, but I feel like this letter is kind of an unresolved part of our relationship, and I don't know if I should bring it up or just work on the relationship without the letter.

Speaker 2 What do you want from the letter?

Speaker 4 Good question. I feel like I want him to take some accountability.
He's never really taken accountability in our relationship. He has

Speaker 4 only tried to kind of sweep things under the rug and then try harder.

Speaker 4 But there's never been any accountability for pain in.

Speaker 2 So you have sensed him trying harder?

Speaker 4 Yes, he did show up to my wedding and he brought the food and we were very happy about that. It was a big thing that we asked him to do because if there's not food at the wedding, what is there?

Speaker 4 But we, it was hard to trust him to do that, but we did trust him and he did come through. So that was a way that he did show up.

Speaker 4 He's been showing more effort, but that accountability portion of how he wasn't helpful in the past is still not there.

Speaker 2 What would that do for you?

Speaker 4 I feel like it would probably

Speaker 4 give me information and data about how deep of a relationship i can have with him as an adult because if he

Speaker 4 yeah because if he is able to take accountability then we can kind of get deeper.

Speaker 4 I'm a therapist. My mom's a therapist.
Like my best friend's a therapist. We're all like most of my circle is very focused on like internal worlds and like, how did that make you feel?

Speaker 4 And I'm sorry if I hurt you. And it's hard having all those people in your life who you're able to connect with in that way.
And then your dad, you're not able to do that.

Speaker 4 So, and I've, I mean, I've accepted that, but obviously it would be really great if I was able to have a deeper relationship with my dad. I'm just not sure if he's capable and I'm not sure if.

Speaker 4 Do you that's going to be beneficial?

Speaker 2 Do you think it would be possible for him to show more effort if he didn't take any accountability, regardless if he communicated it to you or not?

Speaker 4 That's a good one. I mean, he, I guess there are other ways to show accountability rather than just communicating.
That's the way I'm used to it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, like you said, I mean, you're, you're, you literally went to school to be a therapist.
Yeah. Your mom's a therapist.
Your friends are therapists.

Speaker 2 You are literally surrounded by people who have made a career off of like this type of mindset.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 In some ways, I'm sure you know what it's like. We've all been, we've all gone to high school before and had like the genius teacher who was too smart for their own good

Speaker 2 where you're just like, I, I mean, I get you're really smart, but I'm not learning from you because like you're, you, you can't bring yourself down to my level.

Speaker 2 In these situations, like, what's your goal? If your goal is to simply just have a better relationship with dad, then the past definitely matters less.

Speaker 2 Now, if your goal is to be right or to not feel crazy because of maybe some things your dad said or did, and you just, the only way you're going to not feel crazy is if you get your dad to admit to certain things,

Speaker 2 then maybe the past matters a little bit more. But if your only goal is to just have a better relationship with dad, maybe the past matters less.

Speaker 2 Also, and again, I'm not a therapist, but you mentioned the letter you wrote to your dad.

Speaker 2 And again,

Speaker 2 thinking about like what your goal is,

Speaker 2 if your goal, again, is to have a better relationship with your dad, then writing a letter that starts off

Speaker 2 by saying,

Speaker 2 you failed me this way, you failed me that way,

Speaker 2 you're a bad dad,

Speaker 2 but I hope to have a relationship with you.

Speaker 4 Yes, that's definitely the gist of the letter.

Speaker 2 Yeah, which means that's how he took it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know,

Speaker 2 if you get a, you know, we all know what it's like to get a long ass text.

Speaker 2 We usually skim those for the important words.

Speaker 2 And we don't have a, if we're triggered, We don't have nuance when we're triggered.

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 2 You know, we don't read between the lines when we're triggered. Yeah.
So when we're triggered, we just have an emotional act of response, fight or flight, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2 So I'm assuming your dad was triggered by your letter. If you're wondering why maybe he didn't respond, maybe he just didn't

Speaker 2 know how to. I mean,

Speaker 2 your dad sounds like someone who just like maybe lacks a little bit of the emotional depth that you would want him to have, or that you have, or that your mom has. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And again, like, that's why that, that's, that's what gave me that thought is because, you know, I heard you say, I wrote my dad this letter.

Speaker 2 I told him all the things he did wrong and how he failed me.

Speaker 2 He has gotten better. And so, you know, and with his actions.
Yeah. And so to me, it's like, yeah, he, he, he heard you.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, would he, could he would have, would have, but certainly would have been better and certainly

Speaker 2 he would more manly or more

Speaker 2 accountable

Speaker 2 If he would have knocked on your door and faced the consequences of his actions and took accountability, yeah, sure. But like

Speaker 2 a lot of people out there who are really good at saying they're sorry, they're really good at like writing letters back and

Speaker 2 falling on the sword and then not doing anything different.

Speaker 4 That's true.

Speaker 2 So I'm not telling you whether you should or shouldn't bring up this letter, but I.

Speaker 4 Well, I mean, it also sounds like it probably wouldn't be beneficial and might trigger him more.

Speaker 2 You know, you wrote this letter 10 years ago.

Speaker 2 You had an expectation of it that those expectations weren't met. You've become slightly obsessed over this letter, it sounds like.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's that's a harsh word, but I've been preoccupied with I only say that, but like anything that you've been caring about off and on for 10 years requires a level of obsession.

Speaker 4 Oh, okay. Well, that's probably correct.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's like, I don't think that you're every day, all day, or, you know,

Speaker 2 but it no, it was like, again, like, and that's not meant to be a criticism. Like, obviously, it was a vulnerable moment for you.
This is a relationship with your dad, which is very meaningful.

Speaker 2 It's very difficult to like write that letter. You didn't have, you know, it was another example of your dad disappointing you, another example of your dad not.

Speaker 2 living up to your expectations. So like, it's almost distracted you from appreciating what he has done or what you have gotten from him.

Speaker 2 And there just might be more productive ways of nurturing your relationship with your dad than being like, hey, I want to talk about that letter I wrote you where I basically describe your failures as a father.

Speaker 4 My husband said a very similar thing. He usually gives my dad more grace because he's seen my dad show up more.
He doesn't have the history I do. So he's like, pay attention to the actions.

Speaker 4 Like he is showing up. And I feel like, yeah, but you don't understand.
But But of course, he does understand.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know. I can't imagine what it'd be like to be surrounded by a bunch of therapists

Speaker 2 and have like maybe just

Speaker 2 no doubt that your dad is, you know, emotionally not on the same level. Yeah.
You know, as me and your mom. Yeah.

Speaker 4 He's a little emotionally immature, my mom has said. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that may be true, but

Speaker 2 your dad's certainly allowed to feel a certain way about like constantly feeling less than when it comes to his ex-wife and his daughter. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, that's a good point.

Speaker 4 And I've

Speaker 4 worked through it enough myself where I don't feel like my self-esteem and my self-worth is affected by the choices that he makes.

Speaker 4 So I think I can give him a little more grace because it's not going to like affect me as much if he doesn't show up.

Speaker 2 Yeah. When was the last time you thanked your dad for something he's done?

Speaker 4 Oh, Nick.

Speaker 4 Probably my wedding

Speaker 4 when he showed up with the food.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And again, like, you know, I don't, it doesn't sound like your dad's ever going to win father of the year.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 But I can, I can give him a little more grace. I can give him a little more empathy and like understand that he is showing change and accountability in his actions rather than his words.

Speaker 2 Weird analogy, but which just kind of came in my head.

Speaker 2 But like, what makes a really good coach or a really good boss or manager is their ability to understand that the people they coach or manage or whatever respond to different methods of coaching, so to speak.

Speaker 2 And some people respond to tough love and a good push and direct feedback. Other people, you know, a softer approach.
Now, I am someone who is a pretty direct guy.

Speaker 2 I've responded to tough coaching. And, you know, at my most critical, I'm a little judgmental of people who might need gentle parenting or gentle managing or coaching.

Speaker 2 But if I want to be the best coach or manager or boss I can be or parent,

Speaker 2 it doesn't change the fact that I would be more effective leader. or parent or whatever, and I would get more out of the people that I want to get more out of by adapting to how better they respond.

Speaker 2 And I only say that because like, again, your dad is who he is. Don't know why he is how he is.
Don't know what his childhood was like or yada, yada, all the things that make your dad your dad. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But he is who he is.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 again, if your goal is to have a better relationship with dad,

Speaker 2 then you might just want to focus more on how to how to connect with that.

Speaker 2 And this this is all to say, back to like that letter you wrote, making your dad feel good about what he did as a father will probably get more out of him and encourage him to be a better father than to make him feel like he's a failure as a father.

Speaker 2 Because if your dad has a quitting bone in his body, which a lot of people do, it's just like, well, fuck it. If I can't do it, I'm just, you know, we don't like to do things we're not good at.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't like to do things I'm not good at. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And if your your dad doesn't feel like he's a good dad, then he might just quit. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 2 So again, that's not to like let your dad off the hook and never feel like you need to hold him accountable, but it does mean that like you might want to be, get better at encouraging him and validating him when he does show up and making it, letting him know that it made you feel, he made you feel really good by something he did.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because I think he's more used to hearing from you in ways he made you feel bad.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a good point. And no one wants to have a relationship where you're just feeling like you are always messing up.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And that doesn't mean like your dad hasn't messed up and, you know, like that you probably could be a better dad, you know, but now that you are an adult,

Speaker 2 this is a different conversation if you're still 15 or 14.

Speaker 2 But now that you're an adult and you're married and you have your own family and you have an education and certainly an education that, you know, like you don't have to play, I guess, the victim as much as

Speaker 2 you might want to. Because I think a lot of people listening, even, you know, might be like, well, it's your, he's supposed to be the one to fix this.
He's the dad. He says his responsibility.

Speaker 2 It's blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And like that, I don't know. You can choose to have that mind frame.
It will not bring you closer to your dad. And it might not be fair.

Speaker 2 Like, it's not, you know, in adulthood, being happy isn't always fair.

Speaker 4 That's a really good point.

Speaker 2 Or yeah,

Speaker 2 how we get our place to a state of happiness,

Speaker 2 it's not going to, you know, it's, it's not about fairness. Well, I will only do this much if you do this much, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Certainly in your, your, your relationship with your husband, that matters more.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And that's, you know, that's why I wanted to ask you about it because like my circle, my core friends, all the therapists in my lives are have the perspective of you know like he's your dad and he hurt you and you shouldn't be making more effort than he is um but then there are some people including my husband who are like you are not giving him grace and he has been showing up recently and you know you are kind of playing the victim so i really wanted your thoughts because my husband is similar to you in that way and i wanted that like unfiltered like don't don't be a victim.

Speaker 4 You're an adult and your dad hurt you, but also you've worked through it and you can allow him in your life.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's just the biggest thing is like you, you have survived it already.
You worked through it. You have done, you know, you've, you've

Speaker 2 at least partially healed and you are, yeah. And so you are only doing yourself a disservice by standing your ground.

Speaker 2 and demanding accountability from your dad that it sounds like you don't really need.

Speaker 2 You just want. And knowing the difference between what you want and what you need is

Speaker 2 honestly like a big key to like our happiness.

Speaker 2 We waste a lot of energy convincing ourselves we need things when in reality we want things.

Speaker 2 And not knowing the difference causes us to become obsessed and ruminate and convince ourselves we're not as happy as we otherwise would be. Because, well, if we need it, then we have to have it.

Speaker 2 And if we don't have what we need, then how can we possibly be happy and let it go? Yeah,

Speaker 4 absolutely. That is a really good point.

Speaker 4 I have nothing else to say to that, honestly. It's just that is that is very accurate, and it is a want.

Speaker 4 You know, I would love him to take accountability, and I want him to show up how all the other people in my life show up, but I don't need that, and I can make some space for the level of whatever he is able to give me.

Speaker 2 And yeah, and again, you can still judge him from time to time. You can still, you know, show he'll do things and you roll your eyes.
And

Speaker 2 again, you don't have to dilute yourself by convincing yourself, no, I also have like the perfect dad. He's not the perfect dad,

Speaker 2 but you're better off having the relationship you want with your dad today than focusing on the relationship you didn't have with him.

Speaker 2 back then.

Speaker 4 That sounds like a good plan. All right.

Speaker 2 Well, glad I could help. Thanks for the call.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much, Nick. It was so great talking with you.

Speaker 2 My pleasure. Took great talking with you.
Thank you. All right.
Take care. All right.
Bye-bye.

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Speaker 5 Hi, my name's Allie. I am 27, and I was wondering how to reconnect with my partner after a miscarriage.

Speaker 2 Well, I'm so sorry that you're going through that first and foremost. Certainly,

Speaker 2 I can't say I know exactly what it's like, but I certainly have had a front row seat to what you've experienced. So I'm really sorry about that.

Speaker 2 I guess just talk to me a little bit about what this experience has been like for you, And then obviously why you feel like you've been disconnected from your partner.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So we decided to start trying in May.

Speaker 5 We got pregnant right away, which was great. And it was instantly just very rough for me.
Anxiety, like very sick.

Speaker 5 Eight weeks in, we were told that we lost the baby, had no heartbeat. So

Speaker 5 we were just hit with bad news, like first ultrasound right off the bat. And it's just kind of been a process ever since.
So it's, yeah, it's just been interesting grieving two different ways.

Speaker 2 How long has it been for you? Like how long ago did this happen?

Speaker 5 Let's say about

Speaker 5 two or three months ago.

Speaker 2 And I guess how, how have you felt disconnected from him? You mentioned grieving two different ways. So just from your perspective, like with no right or wrong answer, like what are you feeling?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I feel like for me, I've been riding a roller coaster. I'm very in tune with my emotions.
I'm more like, you know, wearing it on my sleeve.

Speaker 5 He kind of described it as I've, I've been, I've had like a cloud over my head since July. Um, which described that?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah, which, which I, I 100% see.

Speaker 5 Um, but he just, I feel like a weekend, he was like, Yeah, I'm good. Like, obviously, it's, it's dunk.
I feel like he's been fine and I like haven't been. So it's been a little bit interesting.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Um, I think that's pretty common. I had the benefit, I think, as a

Speaker 2 husband

Speaker 2 of you don't you currently don't have children together? No, not yet. So this was your first break.
Okay. So I had the, we had the benefit.

Speaker 2 I had the more specifically, I had the benefit of having our daughter River, right?

Speaker 2 And then our second time

Speaker 2 conceiving when we had our first miscarriage.

Speaker 2 I, that, I think that really helped me empathize with what Nally was going through.

Speaker 2 Because I had this self, like when I, when we've joked about this and talked about this on the show a little bit, but when, you know, when Natalie found out she was pregnant with River,

Speaker 2 we had very different reactions to it.

Speaker 2 I mean, I feel like with Natalie, and I assume this is the case for most, many women or most women out there, it's like it's, it's like you, you feel it in your body as soon as you find out you're pregnant.

Speaker 2 You know, there's this immediate connection with your child in your body. It's like, it's like almost instantaneous, it seems like that's how it was for Natalie.

Speaker 2 And for me, it was like kind of like a surreal feeling.

Speaker 2 There are some, and I, maybe this is a bad analogy. I don't know, but there are some things that happen in your life where they're, they're, they're really big.

Speaker 2 Obviously, finding out you're pregnant, right? And as a man,

Speaker 2 finding out your partner is pregnant and that you're going to be a father is obviously like massive news, right?

Speaker 2 But like in that moment, nothing for the man changes, right?

Speaker 2 It's like, okay, you know, like it's, you see a pregnancy test and you know, but like there's no actual, nothing really around you is actually different, right? Like you're, you know,

Speaker 2 you were different away in a way, but like, you know what I'm saying? In that moment, nothing changes.

Speaker 2 I use this example, maybe it's a bad analogy, but when I was named the bachelor, there's like this insane news and you're like, my life's about to change in this crazy way.

Speaker 2 But like the next day, you know, because you're not filming yet and you just, you kind of wake up the next day and you're like, yeah, it's still the same kind of thing. And that's a weird feeling.

Speaker 2 And I feel like for men, because they don't have that physical connection when they find out

Speaker 2 they're going to be a dad, I figured it's very difficult for men to emotionally connect with that child early on. So, and I've told this story before, but when

Speaker 2 know, I found, you know, I, I remember the moment I found out Natalie was pregnant with River.

Speaker 2 And that moment now as a father feels very different for me than it felt in the moment when I first experienced it, right? Like Natalie hid the pregnancy test in this drawer. in our kitchen.

Speaker 2 And now I can't open up that drawer without thinking of River, you know? Now that she is in my life and born, I feel like that's that's where my relationship with my daughter started in that drawer.

Speaker 2 And as dumb as it sounds, right? But it wasn't until after I met her

Speaker 2 that I had that connection. And I think for men, we struggle with that because well, you know, you know, as Natalie was pregnant, certainly like the heartbeat was a big moment for me.

Speaker 2 The first kick was a big moment for me. But like meeting her was just a whole different experience.
And I feel like for most women,

Speaker 2 you know, that connection is much different, much stronger, more intimate.

Speaker 2 This is all to say, like, I do feel grateful because when, and so when Natalie experienced her first miscarriage and it was obviously difficult for both of us, but like horrific for her, my, my relationship with my daughter helped me empathize with Natalie better than

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 think I otherwise would have. I didn't feel necessarily what she felt, but it was really important for me to empathize with her.

Speaker 2 I think where a lot of men make the mistake, and it seems like your partner's making, is that he's not having the same experience you're having. Fine, whatever.
That's nothing you can do about that.

Speaker 2 But instead of going out of his way to realize how just difficult it has been for you, it's almost like, you know, kind of like, can you get over it, energy?

Speaker 2 Which for you must feel very like insulting, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was, it was definitely,

Speaker 5 I, I'm, I'm a therapist. Um, so I

Speaker 5 feel like there's two parts of me where one of them is like, okay, this is what you should do. And this is what you should do to get over this and heal and grieve.

Speaker 5 And then there's the human part of me that's like absolutely spiraling. So in that moment, when we found out, it was, I just wanted to sit home and cry.

Speaker 5 And I was like, this is all that I can picture because I just pictured these like 18 years ahead of me. Yeah.
And

Speaker 5 I say it laughing now because in the moment I wasn't laughing. I was like, what the hell's wrong with you? But in the same day, he was like, so you want to go to the bar and get a drink?

Speaker 5 And I was like, what?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it almost sounded monstrous.

Speaker 4 Lost our baby.

Speaker 5 I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah. So it was definitely really, really interesting.
It's he

Speaker 5 has just gotten over it so quickly. And I mean, he's not over it.
He definitely is sad, but it's not shown. And I have definitely been like this dark cloud.

Speaker 2 I think it's a combination for men of one, they truly don't know how to relate to what you went through.

Speaker 2 I think two, I also think there's an element of not even wanting to go there and trying to go there because honestly, they see you suffering so much. They don't they don't want to suffer like you.

Speaker 2 You know, they

Speaker 2 don't want to be in it like you are and they don't want to feel like they lost their child. You know, I think that's more of a subconscious thought.

Speaker 2 I don't think that's like an act of conscious thought men are having, but I think there's a little truth to that, you know?

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, I don't know what, yeah, I mean, I, what, what conversations you've had with your husband about, are you married?

Speaker 5 Is he just, I don't want to, uh, no, so we, we will be getting married, not married yet. Okay.
We have, yeah, we've been together for about two and a half years. Okay.

Speaker 2 Um, have you been able to express to him just like what you're

Speaker 2 going through? And do you feel like he's done a better job of you know, just acknowledging this, if nothing else, just allowing you to be sad, you know, even if he's not? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, I think, I think he's, he's, at first, it took the little trial and error.

Speaker 5 I think over the past couple of months, he's definitely been trying to be supportive, you know, just allow, letting, sitting with me in that space, offering me tea, sometimes being a little overbearing, but, you know, just actually.

Speaker 5 being supportive.

Speaker 5 I think now that we are trying again, that's where this anxiety comes up like i feel like every time i have baby on the brain 24 seven you know and it's like how how do i not have baby on the brain 24 seven i feel like sometimes i talk about it so much where he's like i can't he hasn't said it to me but i can just see it in his face because i know him so well he's like oh my god like if i hear baby one more time i'm going to like i mean i don't know i don't have a good answer for you because like my my wife is going through what you're going through right now

Speaker 2 i guess for me i i don't, I don't have any, there's nothing, I don't have any exception to it other than the fact that I don't, you know, listen, I don't want you

Speaker 2 stress, as I'm sure you know, is just like not great

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 pregnant women,

Speaker 2 certainly early.

Speaker 2 And to whatever degree, the stress of not, you know, it's just like it's, you know, and I think what's helped now is at times, you know, when you're talking to doctors, doctors, you know, we have good doctors and doctors who have a very personal, empathetic touch, but even those doctors, like some part of, sometimes the science of it all helps, which is like, it never really had a chance or there wasn't, you know, and it's like, you know, maybe it's nature's way.

Speaker 2 And like, there's this balance between understanding, you know, I don't know, like, it's a lot of it is just trying to emotionally like

Speaker 2 comprehend what happened. The shitty part is, is that like, I think all I can do as a partner is to stay as positive as possible and to have this balance between, like, I want to be for Natalie.

Speaker 2 I'll just explain to you what I'm trying to do. I don't know, you know, but I'm trying to stay as positive for us.
I think that really matters. I think despite our challenges recently,

Speaker 2 there's a lot of reasons for us to be optimistic and hopeful. She's still really young.

Speaker 2 Our medicals are still checking out positively. We're looking for things to try to like find out, you know, where's the smoking gun and yada, yada, yada, and things like that.

Speaker 2 But we're all still, we're getting a clean bill of health.

Speaker 2 We have been able to conceive rather, relatively easily. And certainly a lot of people

Speaker 2 are struggling with that. And I just like, it might not be on our timeline, but I am still confident that we are going to be able to have the family that we want.

Speaker 2 And I think all I am just trying to focus on that big picture because I do think it's important for us to both stay positive. It's like you have to have that balance between being positive, but not

Speaker 2 diminish what you're going through for the sake of positivity.

Speaker 2 I think it is okay to be sad and to mourn the loss of your child and to recognize, you know, Nan and I got matching tattoos, you know, small ones is like a symbol for the child we lost.

Speaker 2 Now we haven't gotten.

Speaker 2 Since we now have had three miscarriages in a row, we haven't gotten three separate ones, but now it's been a symbol of all of the miscarriages.

Speaker 2 But that's a way for us to like, for now, it's always really important to cherish that memory, to not lose it, to not have it be forgotten. My mom experienced a miscarriage.

Speaker 2 You know, we have, I have 10 brothers and sisters, but I was, I don't know, like in middle school when she experienced, I think, I don't know if it was her first miscarriage, but the first one I remember.

Speaker 2 And to this day, I know what that baby's birthday would have been because it was the passcode of our garage door opening up.

Speaker 2 And that was just a way for my mom to like remember that and connect with that child and not have it feel forgotten. So much so that like her second oldest kid still knows the number.

Speaker 2 And I honestly think a little shit like that, little things like that help, you know, because it feels, you know, and so without overdoing it, without obsessing it to the point.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, I think where men struggle, where I'm guessing your partner wants you to find that balance is to not have it consume you so much so that it drives a wedge between you two, that it makes it more difficult for you guys to like conceive again or, you know, and things like that, because you do have to manage your stress because stress matters.

Speaker 2 And I think

Speaker 2 you both trying to find that balance. It's just, you know, really, it's really just about that balance, you know.
I think it's okay for you to say, I'm just a little sad right now.

Speaker 2 I think, you know, without being like, I think men struggle. when it comes to their partners acting hopeless.

Speaker 2 Because if, you know, men are fixers, generally speaking, they want to be useful. They want to know they can help.

Speaker 2 And if, and if their partner is acting like something is hopeless, then it, they don't know what to do.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you know, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 5 And I, I feel like at one point I was getting, I recognize this in myself now, uh, looking back is I was, I was getting a little obsessive the first, when we first started trying of like, I'm not drinking a single thing.

Speaker 5 I'm not doing this. I'm not doing that.
I would like put myself in a very strict lifestyle.

Speaker 5 And I feel like I was very hard on him where I wanted him to be on that strict lifestyle too.

Speaker 5 And it came to the point where he'd like open up like maybe his second beer and I'd be like, oh, and I like wouldn't even mean to, but it's just like that kind of comment would come out.

Speaker 5 And then in my head, I'd be like, oh, crap.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 I don't want to like.

Speaker 5 micromanage, you know, I would try not to do that.

Speaker 2 I think, you know, my guess is it comes from a place of like wanting to share in this experience with your partner. It's just,

Speaker 2 it's a fine line, you know, because yeah, once you get pregnant, like, you know, it's like, I imagine when you were throwing up and being sick while you were pregnant and he's just like, good.

Speaker 2 It's kind of fucking annoying.

Speaker 5 You know, it's so annoying.

Speaker 2 And I think that's where guys, you know, the parts they can do is like, whatever they can do, however they can make your life easier.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, try to really take care of you.

Speaker 2 And that, you know, and so as long as he's doing that,

Speaker 2 I think that's the the important part, as opposed to like the symbolic gesture of him not having a beer and then giving him shit for it probably is something you could let slide.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 I got to work on that a little bit.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I mean, unless it's a difficult situation and it sucks, right? For that very reason, it's a really, you know, it sucks for so many reasons having a miscarriage. But it's

Speaker 2 an ancillary shittiness of it is that men and women have very different experiences with that.

Speaker 2 And in that experience of, and in those differences, it can have,

Speaker 2 it can make couples feel disconnected, which sucks, which is the last thing you want to feel going through this.

Speaker 2 And, and if you don't have any type of experience, or you know, again, like I feel very lucky to have had River because that

Speaker 2 gave me some insight that I wouldn't have had if we had

Speaker 2 had a miscarriage before having a child together.

Speaker 2 And I had the self-awareness to imagine, you know, I just took it for granted.

Speaker 2 When Nana got pregnant, I just, I, I had ever, I was this up, I just didn't, I just thought everything was going to go great and everything went great.

Speaker 2 And once I heard a heartbeat, it was, I was that much more connected to my daughter.

Speaker 2 And for people who are lucky enough to hear a heartbeat and then have to experience a loss after that, it's devastating.

Speaker 2 I'm grateful that in our three miscarriages, we never never heard a heartbeat because that would have been very difficult for me.

Speaker 2 At the same time, it might have helped me connect better with the pain that my wife has been feeling.

Speaker 2 Because again, that's a selfish part on my part of to not wanting, to not want to feel that connection in a way because I know how much harder it would have been for me.

Speaker 2 And yet you've had to deal with that pain, you know, that your husband hasn't had to deal with. Yeah.
Or your partner. excuse me.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's, it's refreshing to hear it from a guy's perspective. I guess it's,

Speaker 5 I, it's like, you know, that it's different, but you're, I just, it's so consuming. And I mean, as you've probably witnessed with, within, you know, you guys, I'm sorry for your losses as well.

Speaker 5 It is, it's just so consuming. And

Speaker 5 it's almost like you don't, you don't know what to do with yourself.

Speaker 5 I guess as, as a couple, what have you guys done together to try to heal together?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean,

Speaker 2 the tattoos that we got,

Speaker 2 you know, interesting, like the first miscarriage she miscarried in the toilet, not to be graphic. Just with a toilet and everything, it just feels terribly wrong.

Speaker 2 I had a memory of my mom

Speaker 2 having a similar experience and hearing about it. And I remember how devastated she was when she accidentally flushed the toilet.

Speaker 2 So I had the awareness.

Speaker 2 I got in there, the toilet, and I scooped it all out because when the lake house is done, we want to

Speaker 2 bury our child. At the same time,

Speaker 2 the two other miscarriages, she ended up having to have a DNC. We've done sent it into lab tests.
We didn't save those, you know, and it's like, and now it's more like a symbolic thing.

Speaker 2 But like, when the lake house is done, we'll, you know, and it's just like, again, like, just, I don't know, like, I feel like with Natalie, she's just always wanted to feel like I was in it with her.

Speaker 2 Right. And I think sometimes, you know, like his,

Speaker 2 I don't think he meant anything by it, but him being like, would you want to go get a drink very much made you feel like completely alone in that moment.

Speaker 2 And not that you want him to suffer along with you. You just want to like.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, misery does love company. I don't mean that.

Speaker 2 Like, but like, yeah, if you're going to, as a couple, it's, there should be some shared mutual loss, you know, and I think us men have to at least try to empathize more to just be in it with your partner.

Speaker 2 So I guess try to create some kind of symbolic thing you guys can do that's not too heavy, that, you know, like that you both feel comfortable with, whether it's just having a conversation. Like,

Speaker 2 you know, Natalie and I talked about how like, you know, when we are lucky enough to have our second child, like the spirit of all those other

Speaker 2 miscarriages will be in this child. Now, for people listening, they might be like, that's horseshit.

Speaker 2 You know, like, I'm not, we're not, it's just, it helps us emotionally process, right? You just need to not feel alone and you need him to just, yeah, be there in it with you.

Speaker 2 Um, and then you should try to, as much as you can, you know,

Speaker 2 maintain that desire to be a mom. You know, like Natalie, again, everything you're describing, I have a front row C to it.

Speaker 2 So, like, and I am in no way trying to convince Natalie to be less committed to, to, you know, getting pregnant again.

Speaker 2 So I don't really say anything

Speaker 2 because I think she does a good job of managing her mindset. But

Speaker 2 when if I ever feel like she's getting a little pessimistic or anxious, I just try to be positive. This is going to happen.

Speaker 2 I know it's not, and I know it's not the time, you know, but we're, we are going to have the family we want. That's, you know, and, and I just, I just try to communicate that, you know,

Speaker 2 and I don't know when it's going to happen or how it's going to happen and the way we want it to happen, but it's going to happen.

Speaker 2 And the reality is, is that when it does happen, we are going to obviously be obsessed with that child. And that child wouldn't exist in that form if those other terrible things didn't happen.

Speaker 2 So, you know, it's just one of those things. You just have to allow life to take its course.
And in the meantime, I guess just try to stay a little positive.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
No, that's, that's good to hear. I, I've had like a control issue my whole life.
So something we've been working on.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 5 and yeah, I think I've tried channeling all of my energy to,

Speaker 5 I can't even tell you how many rooms I've renovated in our house in the last couple of months. Um, just doing things in the house, doing

Speaker 5 getting back into painting, doing

Speaker 5 we started collecting things since we don't have children yet. We started collecting things for what would for our future child

Speaker 5 getting things checked off our registry.

Speaker 5 I'm a planner and a control freak. So it's been

Speaker 2 trying to work on that. Try to be comfortable with letting your mind.
Do you meditate? I don't meditate. So it's not like I'm

Speaker 2 and I could use, but like whether, and I don't know how to, like, I'm not a meditating guru. I don't even know how to meditate.
I don't meditate. But like, you know,

Speaker 2 the little bit I know about meditation,

Speaker 2 I, I, I feel like I can comfortably say just, maybe just like sitting in your thoughts sometimes, not even really in your thoughts, but just to, just let things be, let things play out.

Speaker 2 If you are, if you can recognize you're a control freak in this moment, maybe just like a mantra to help tell yourself is like, you know, is is

Speaker 2 as dark as this period has been,

Speaker 2 you really do have to count your blessings. You know, you really have to focus on what you do have.
I'm definitely in this like

Speaker 2 frame of mind right now with the world being what it is,

Speaker 2 that we need to start like focusing, like the world wants us to obsessively focus on what we hate, what we don't have, what the problem, you know. Why everything's a problem.

Speaker 2 We have to change our individual mindset to count our blessings, to be grateful for what we have, to stay positive.

Speaker 2 And that doesn't mean be complacent or in things like that, but we really have to, you have to not lose sight of

Speaker 2 those things. Those things keep us grounded.
And then you can kind of grow that positivity rather than

Speaker 2 like right now, I would hate for you to

Speaker 2 become so obsessed. with finally becoming a mother that subconsciously

Speaker 2 you feel like like nothing's working out for you, that life is miserable. You know what I'm saying? Because that's just not true.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, that's so, that's so true.

Speaker 5 I, I have found myself like doom scrolling more and just seeing now my whole algorithm's like babies. And I'm like, I can't do this to myself.
So, you know, yeah, it's just too much.

Speaker 2 The common enemy is the algorithm. It's our phones.
It's, I really, get off your phone, connect with your husband, you know, just,

Speaker 2 you you know, I don't, you know, your friends, your family, you know, these are,

Speaker 2 we are going to be so regretful of the relationships

Speaker 2 in our lives that we didn't nourish, that we didn't cultivate

Speaker 2 because we were too busy doom scrolling.

Speaker 2 So yeah, you know, if you are doom scrolling, stop doom scrolling. That is definitely not helping your brain

Speaker 2 and your state of mind. And that is, I think, really important when it comes to what you and your partner are trying to do.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
That's helpful.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 Well, hopefully this was helpful.

Speaker 2 Sorry for what you're going through. It's,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, it's like,

Speaker 2 and to that end, it's just like, you know, well, I am grateful that, you know, we, I have this platform and have this show and is as terrible as our experience have been with these three miscarriages.

Speaker 2 It has, you know, like, I'm grateful for you calling in. And just, I think it's something that a lot of people,

Speaker 2 you know, like if you, if you haven't experienced it, it's such an afterthought for everyone else.

Speaker 2 And it's a very lonely feeling because a lot of people in your shoes just don't feel like it's okay to

Speaker 2 maybe feel as sad or as painful as, say, a parent who

Speaker 2 lost a child, you know, in a sense, right? And I think a lot of people feel very alone in your shoes.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think it completely changes your life and your perspective.

Speaker 5 I even, I look at back at photos of me earlier in the year and I'm like, wow, like selfishly, I kind of wish I could be as ignorant as that person was at the beginning of the year who never knew these feelings.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's always worth it.
So, yeah, I

Speaker 2 would, I know you don't agree with that.

Speaker 5 And I, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I think we've all become these nihilist, I don't know, like I, before I met Natalie and before I was dad, you know, when things aren't working out with me, for me, whatever it was, I, you know, it was very easy for me to be like, what's the point of anything?

Speaker 2 You know, I don't, you know,

Speaker 2 I, I literally had a hard time feeling things. So be grateful that you, as terrible as it was,

Speaker 2 felt so connected to something

Speaker 2 that it caused you to experience this loss and pain. Because again, I think most people in this world don't feel anything anymore.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you have that.

Speaker 5 To grieve is to have loved something like that.

Speaker 2 Truly, yeah. I mean, it is true.
So,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 don't diminish that.

Speaker 5 I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 All right. I'll take care.
Good luck.

Speaker 5 Thank you. You too.
All right. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2 Bye.

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