E1022 Ask Nick - I'm Sleeping with an Engaged Man

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Good. I'm Amber.
I'm 27, and the guy I'm hooking up with is engaged. What do I do?

Speaker 2 Break up.

Speaker 2 Why are you hooking up with an engaged man?

Speaker 4 So it's been a situationship for the last five years.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So is he cheating on his fiancé with you?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Explain to me why you think that's okay.

Speaker 2 I don't.

Speaker 4 Okay. We have been really good friends for the last year hooking up and then he started dating her about three years ago and it just continued throughout that.

Speaker 2 Okay. Explain to me how you've been able to justify it on your end.

Speaker 4 I mean, obviously, I'm aware that it's like really shitty what I've been doing. Okay.
And like I'm not going to make excuses for it.

Speaker 4 But I think where I've been coming from is I, to me, it hasn't been just a situationship. Like, I'm the person on the other end who has had feelings the whole time.

Speaker 4 And I've just been kind of hoping that maybe someday he would wake up and change his mind and have those feelings back.

Speaker 2 So in a way, it's like you, you knew him first and you felt a connection with him first.

Speaker 2 So there's a part of you that is telling yourself that you're just as entitled to his love and affection as she is?

Speaker 4 I don't think it's like an entitlement. I think it was just like, I just wanted it because of how I had felt for so long.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but we all want things, but like what stopped, you know, for example, I imagine anytime you walk into a bank, you might want, you know, maybe you see the vault open and you see a stack of money and there's like a hundred thousand dollars worth of cash there.

Speaker 2 You might want that, but like, would you steal it if you knew you couldn't get caught?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 2 Okay, so it's not about wanting it, right?

Speaker 2 There's a, I guess what I'm trying to, you know, just like there is a part, and I think it's important for you to understand why you've been able to justify it because you have justified it, right?

Speaker 2 Like you can acknowledge it's wrong. I don't know anything about you, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're not a horrible person that lacks empathy.

Speaker 2 I think you're doing a shitty thing to someone who you really don't know. And there's a disconnect between you and this other person.

Speaker 2 But you have been able to justify it because the flip side is you like knowing it's shitty, you don't give a fuck, and you're like, you don't, you don't even feel the need to justify it because you just don't care.

Speaker 2 That would make you kind of a shitty person. I don't, I'm guessing you're not.
So you, you have had to justify it because without justifying it, then you just don't give a fuck. Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So yeah, I think it's important you acknowledge that you've had to justify it and that you have justified it and figuring out how you've justified justified it, you know, just to make yourself aware of it.

Speaker 2 Because again, we justify things all the time and we convince ourselves of things that maybe deep down we know aren't right.

Speaker 2 You know, the good people who do bad things, which all the time, every day, it's not, it's not because they're evil. It's because they're able to justify it.

Speaker 2 They're able to say things like, well, I know it's wrong, but does that make sense? Yeah.

Speaker 4 I guess, yeah. So we never would really talk about the relationship.
So like, even though it existed, like the times that we were together, it wasn't being spoken about.

Speaker 4 So it was kind of just like the elephant in the room. And then he also had me blocked from his Snapchat story.
So I wasn't really seeing his like everyday life in that sense with her.

Speaker 4 And then the reason I found out they were engaged is he actually blocked me on Facebook because he didn't want me to see that the engagement had happened.

Speaker 2 Okay. What are you hoping to get out of this call?

Speaker 4 So when I first wrote in, it was, I think, within like an hour of finding out because I was just mad, sad, like all the things.

Speaker 4 And I think now that it's been about a month and I've processed it, it's more or or less like, what can I take from this to like be a better person after, but also like making sure that like, I forgive myself for it, I guess.

Speaker 4 Like I have a lot of regret now and kind of feel like I almost don't deserve like a happy ending after this moving forward.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 2 Well, I think step one is just, again, just owning it. Acknowledge that you've done a shitty thing.
It sounds like you're, you're done with this guy. Is that accurate? Or like, are you? You are.

Speaker 2 Okay. And is that because right now he's not communicating with you? Because now he's engaged and he has cut you off? Or have you decided that you're done with this person?

Speaker 4 So I've decided I'm done. He hasn't cut me off.
There was a little bit of communication right after I found out.

Speaker 4 And then I did block him on Snapchat just because that's where a lot of the conversations regarding like the hookups and stuff were happening.

Speaker 4 So I wanted to take away that from myself because I didn't want to fall back into that.

Speaker 4 So, there was a little bit of communication, like, over text afterwards, but I made it clear to him that, like, if and when an engagement came, like, that's when like this needed to end and I needed to be done with it, which I mean, doesn't make up for the last three years, but that was the first time I was ever really able to set a boundary with him.

Speaker 4 And so, then when he went and like blocked me on Facebook and I found out anyways, that's where like a lot of the hurt came from because I was finally able to like stand up and set the boundary with him.

Speaker 2 I mean, all you can do is just try to move forward with it. I don't think there's much good in telling this person.

Speaker 2 I don't know if that's even something you were considering.

Speaker 4 No, it wasn't. Okay.

Speaker 2 I don't think you'd be trying to help her. I think you'd be trying to hurt her.

Speaker 2 So I'm glad that you're not considering that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, like you've done a bad thing.
You just got to try not to do it again. As far as like

Speaker 2 thinking you don't deserve it or yada, yada, or like like karma is going to, I mean, I definitely kind of believe in karma to a certain degree.

Speaker 2 That being said, I don't think you need to operate and live in fear.

Speaker 2 If anything, you know, if something like this happens to you in the future, I don't think it's going to do you much good to be like, oh, I had this coming.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't think that's why it happened. Fast forward three years, you're in a relationship and your heart is broken and you feel really wronged.
Yeah, I don't think there's much good in it.

Speaker 2 I had it coming. I think maybe it will help you maybe feel less sorry for your.
That's what I would, how I would approach it.

Speaker 2 For you, as you sit here now, what I think it's really important, I think you got to recognize like you chose to do some extreme shit, right? Like,

Speaker 2 outside of the fact that he was dating someone else the whole time, and you knew that in the back of your mind, I certainly can offer you a little grace because, like, it's not, you know, he's the main culprit here.

Speaker 2 It's really his fault. You certainly didn't help.
You did a bad thing for sure. But as far as like you allowing this to go on for five years,

Speaker 2 clearly getting very little from this man, at times being okay,

Speaker 2 whether you said you were okay with it or not, your actions said that you were okay with him blocking you on Snapchat and keeping you a secret.

Speaker 2 And you were willing to take crumbs from this man for five years. And that's the part, if I were you, I would really try to focus on.

Speaker 2 And quite honestly, your willingness to accept so little for yourself is ultimately what caused you, in my mind, very unexpert opinion, to do this terrible thing.

Speaker 2 Honestly, you got to raise your standards for yourself. You got to hold yourself to a higher standard.
I, if I were you, would spend the next six to 12 months. How old are you again?

Speaker 4 I'm 27.

Speaker 2 Okay, still pretty young. I would really focus on self-improvement.
You know, so much of your energy, no doubt, has been focused on getting this man to change his mind about you.

Speaker 2 You have wasted a lot of your energy where you could have been investing yourself, investing your career, investing in your health, investing in other friends, certainly people, other dates, and you have invested in this guy, right?

Speaker 2 And if I were you, I would spend a lot more time investing in you, in the things that make you happy, your health, you know, I would take pride in what you do.

Speaker 2 Because you got to have more confidence in what you bring to the table. Otherwise, you're going to keep expecting so little of yourself.

Speaker 2 You thought so little of yourself that, A, you accepted crumbs from this man. You just, you had no standards, not even to do the right thing.

Speaker 2 So to me, it comes from a place of a lack of love for yourself or lack of self-confidence, knowing what you deserved. Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is it resonating?

Speaker 2 And so instead of feeling sorry for yourself or living in fear that you have karma is going to visit your front doorstep at some point because it's a shitty thing to do and you didn't deserve it.

Speaker 2 I, if anything, get mad at yourself for a period of time and stop treating yourself so shitty, you know, like you have been.

Speaker 2 And I don't think you, you know, and I think it's a fine line given what you did. I'm not suggesting you play the victim card here and pity yourself.
I, I'm, it's more the get your shit together.

Speaker 2 Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Stop being the victim.
and start treating yourself with the respect you deserve. What ways have you been neglecting yourself?

Speaker 2 I'm guessing there's probably a lot of different ways you've been neglecting yourself. I would address those things and I would get busy investing in whatever it is you think you should invest in.

Speaker 2 Are you in any type of therapy?

Speaker 4 Not currently, no. Okay.

Speaker 2 Therapy is not a

Speaker 2 cure-all for anything, but I think the right therapist, and I would be, you know.

Speaker 2 take your time making sure you land on the right therapist, but the right therapist, I think, can help you navigate some of these

Speaker 2 self-limiting beliefs you've clearly had in your life.

Speaker 2 What are some low-hanging fruit things that you think you could invest in yourself better?

Speaker 4 I think my self-confidence is pretty much non-existent. So, like, that could definitely use a ton of improvement.

Speaker 4 And then, I think, like, my own perception of my self-worth has taken quite a toll during this all.

Speaker 2 What have you done to like be your best self? Like, what, what, what self-improving things have you done? Whether it's like education,

Speaker 2 even getting good at a hobby, you know, self-care. What are some things that you've done to take pride in what you, what you do?

Speaker 4 I have my degree already and then I'm currently back in school right now. And I have about a year and a half left of that until I'm done with my next degree.

Speaker 4 So that's something to look forward to. But otherwise, like I'll be.

Speaker 2 Are you proud of it? I mean, are you know, like, do you work hard?

Speaker 4 Yeah. No, I work full time as well as, you know, going to school full-time.
And then

Speaker 4 I still, you know, make time for like my friends. And then I live across the country from my family.

Speaker 2 Do you acknowledge the hard work you put into having a full-time job and then advancing your education so you can advance your career?

Speaker 4 Not as much as I should.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, just because it was always kind of like an expectation to do it. So it's kind of.

Speaker 2 A lot of people don't do it, though. You know? Yeah.
Like you should still take.

Speaker 2 take pride in your work, you know, take pride in exceptionalism and people going out of their way to be their best selves.

Speaker 2 It's so hard hard to find and so rare that if you are putting in work and you are grinding in any aspect of your life, you know, you should feel a sense of pride about that and feel good about that.

Speaker 2 And then try to apply it to other aspects of your life. What are some things that you could be doing that you're not doing

Speaker 2 in terms of taking better care of yourself?

Speaker 4 I think just prioritizing myself, like whether it's like the small things or, you know, like you mentioned, like trying to get back into therapy and just kind of getting to like the root of some of these things.

Speaker 4 But I feel like I've just kind of let this situation consume me the last five years. And I just really put myself on the back burner in pretty much every possible way.

Speaker 4 So now it's like, I feel like I'm so behind compared to

Speaker 4 that.

Speaker 2 That's really all in your head. You're only 27.

Speaker 2 You're in no different position than, say, someone who got married at 22 and is now getting divorced. And as shitty as this situation has been for you, you're

Speaker 2 that's a lot easier than getting divorced or he could have just or he you could have got what you wanted from him and it could have been a really pretty shitty relationship that would have been hard to get up you know what i'm saying so like

Speaker 2 what happened happened and so you should only as it relates to the past you should only be focused on how you can learn from that experience to improve your life going forward acknowledge the mistakes you made both in terms of how you've treated yourself so poorly and how your,

Speaker 2 you know, let's just call it what it is, weakness caused you to do something shitty to another person.

Speaker 2 You know, hopefully she doesn't know about it, so you haven't hurt her, but you did a shitty thing.

Speaker 2 And at the risk of potentially devastatingly hurting someone else, you were too weak to do the right thing.

Speaker 2 So you should focus on why that is so that you can learn from it, not to beat yourself up or make yourself feel bad or pity yourself, but to recognize that so that you are no longer a liability for hurting others for your own selfish needs.

Speaker 2 Use this as motivation.

Speaker 2 Use this as a, thank God, I'm only 27. Thank God, as shitty as it was, I didn't waste any more time and it could have been worse, right?

Speaker 2 You know, like there's no point in spending your emotionally energy being like, oh, well, I'll never get those five years back. And then I don't, I'm so behind.
You're not behind.

Speaker 2 You're only 27, you know? And you could have been in a relationship that even if it wasn't like horrible,

Speaker 2 it could have still taken a ton of your time and energy that, and then it could have ended, you know, and we all, when we have a relationship that ends, that we thought could, that wouldn't end, everyone struggles with a little bit of starting over, you know, and that's scary for sure.

Speaker 2 Don't make a difficult situation even worse by self-pity or making yourself out to be a victim of this guy. You made choices.
You knew he had a girlfriend. You knew there was another woman.

Speaker 2 And you know that from day one, five years ago, you had every reason and opportunity

Speaker 2 to end it. And you chose not to.
And so he is in charge of his own life and his decisions. and whatever accountability he wants to hold himself to.
He is not your problem, especially not anymore.

Speaker 2 You are your responsibility. He is his responsibility.

Speaker 2 So I wouldn't waste any energy on what he's doing or what he did to you. You got to have some positive thoughts, which is like, thank God I'm out of that.
It's time to get to work.

Speaker 2 It's time to start making different choices. So, yeah.

Speaker 2 Is this helpful at all? I don't know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's nice because obviously my friends are biased since they're like my friends. So it was not really much tough love.

Speaker 4 It was like, oh, like, you know, you made a mistake, feel your feelings, whatever.

Speaker 4 But like, it's nice to kind of get that like reminder and push that like, it's time to leave it in the past and like just really focus on myself and

Speaker 4 like improve from it, I guess.

Speaker 2 I think it's okay to call yourself out and recognize your mistakes. You were, you were weak.
And you're not a weak person, but you demonstrated weakness and you have an opportunity to change that.

Speaker 2 You clearly have it in you to be a strong person. You just have to find that strength and apply it to other aspects of your life.

Speaker 2 And in areas in which you feel insecure or you have less confidence, figure it the fuck out. Start working on your weaknesses.
Very few things we can't change, you know?

Speaker 2 And very few people are willing to do whatever it takes to make improvements in their life. So if you are willing to do that, you have such an advantage over most people.

Speaker 2 And if you're willing to not make excuses for your choices so that you don't feel bad for choices you've made made and reasons why things haven't worked out the way you wanted to.

Speaker 2 And you go a little bit deeper than just saying, well, everything happens for a reason and I'm just going to sit on my ass and wait for the universe to, you know,

Speaker 2 tell me it's my time.

Speaker 2 If you're willing to actually like make the most of whatever it is you have, then you will be better off. You just will.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it does.

Speaker 2 Is this in any way motivating? I'm trying to motivate you.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, it has been.

Speaker 2 Have you blocked him? I mean,

Speaker 2 is he capable of connecting with you if you really wanted to?

Speaker 4 I have not blocked his phone number.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 if he wanted to, he could reach out that way.

Speaker 3 Why not?

Speaker 4 As stupid as it sounds, I am in his fantasy football league.

Speaker 2 So why do you need to be in his fantasy football league?

Speaker 4 I was already signed up and paid for before this had happened. I don't care.

Speaker 2 Listen, that's weakness. That's an excuse.
You got to stop making excuses for your poor choices in life. Again, there will always be reasons.

Speaker 2 And the world is full of opportunities to make excuses for your shitty and poor choices. And you hanging out and being in his fantasy league, because what?

Speaker 2 You spent a couple hundred bucks, 50, how much was it to be in the fantasy? $100. $100.

Speaker 2 For $100, you were selling yourself out at the risk of staying in his world so that he can emotionally fuck with you from time to time.

Speaker 2 Even if it's just the week that you're playing him or you, you know, like you're still connected to him and you are selling yourself out over $100.

Speaker 2 So quit the league, block his number. And like, if you really are serious about moving forward,

Speaker 2 you got to start taking those steps.

Speaker 2 You got to start taking yourself seriously. You know what I'm saying? Like that you got to take yourself seriously.
And it starts with those types of choices.

Speaker 2 Instead of seeing it as a wasted money on a fantasy football league, you don't get to play in.

Speaker 2 You only sign, you only joined it to be closer to him anyways. And you got to stop yourself and catch yourself and call yourself out.

Speaker 2 What are other things that you're making excuses for that are stopping you from really moving on?

Speaker 4 I think it's hard because like we were friends for quite a while before this happened. And like the first two years that we were doing this, like he was single.

Speaker 4 So I feel like I'm still just kind of like holding on to like the past and like the very beginning and then just like I don't know like the

Speaker 2 you were in your early 20s then that's a whole different that's a lifetime ago yeah there's I don't know I feel like there's other like common interests we shared so I like even though like anyone I could talk to about it it's like something about like the reminiscing almost of one like sure listen you you're gonna feel like you broke up with someone so there's an emotional like healing that you're gonna have to do and it's obviously very complicated for you because you're also processing this thing that you did that you know is wrong so yeah give yourself a little bit of grace.

Speaker 2 This is going to take some time for you to heal. But in the meantime, you got to hold yourself to a higher standard.
And until you do, things aren't going to get better for you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And just want more for yourself. He's just some guy.
And again, like, I understand you had some things in common, you enjoyed his company, and you've, you've, you've spent way too much energy and time

Speaker 2 focusing on those things.

Speaker 2 You haven't spent enough of time that this man has been lying to this person for five years. He's been lying to you.
He is a liar. He's not a good person.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm sure he has his excuses and maybe he will also make some changes in his life.

Speaker 2 But as far as you're concerned, he shouldn't be the type of person you want to be so emotionally bent up over. And you got to start seeing him in that light.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree with that. So

Speaker 2 you got to let it go. You got to let him go and be honest with yourself about what he represents and who he is and how he's treated you.
Pull yourself to a higher standard.

Speaker 2 Stop making excuses for weak moments in your life and poor choices. Stop making excuses about why you can't move on.
And then give yourself the credit that you do deserve.

Speaker 2 So, when you do make difficult choices and when you do put in the work, and then try to, you know, compound that.

Speaker 2 What are you thinking?

Speaker 4 Sorry, it's just,

Speaker 4 I haven't talked about it this in depth in a long time. So it's just, I don't know.
It's a good wake-up call, but it's a lot. But no, I agree.
And

Speaker 4 it's hard because it's like, I do want better for myself and I do want to cut him out. But

Speaker 4 it's like the second, you know, like a. opportunity comes up to like talk to him it's like i still just want to take it and it's hard to

Speaker 4 like like let it just stay in the past even though like i know it needs to and like i know i deserve better and it's not someone who i want in my life but for whatever reason it is it's just so hard to give it up you do need to think you deserve more than

Speaker 2 this

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 in the past five years

Speaker 2 how good has this person made you feel consistently and i'm not talking about moments of like getting what you wanted for brief moments, but I feel like he's caused you a way more emotional stress than happiness

Speaker 4 yeah i mean there was definitely like some moments you know that stick out but like you said it wasn't consistent it was just kind of like a highlight reel over the last five years and it's not like it was happening all the time and i'm guessing rarely happening yeah and i'm guessing there are probably more moments where he made you feel shitty feelings

Speaker 2 definitely that's the stuff that you i think you need to focus on when you're having a hard time letting him go so let's uh let's let's block his number then delete his number and then

Speaker 2 i would just not run your team let it go

Speaker 2 no

Speaker 2 i would say you can make a

Speaker 2 make a silly trade with someone you know

Speaker 2 trade my team away i would just leave it i wouldn't set your roster i would just leave it i would not logging in again i would is that that the only is that the only league that you're on in terms of whatever app you guys are running your um i'm in another league the other one's like more for fun where this one was more is it the same app that you guys are using it yeah it's the same app i i'm guessing there's a way for you to quit one of the leagues somehow yeah or or just have the the discipline to not look at it because that yeah he that's his that's how he keeps you around those little silly things and you got to stop wondering if he's wondering about you like again like you you he's been using you and you don't want him to wonder about you He doesn't care about you in the way that you want him to.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying that to hurt your feelings, but you haven't cared enough about yourself and you haven't held yourself to a standard that would make him see you in the way you want him to see you.

Speaker 2 But you're still only 27. You got a lot of opportunity to right whatever wrongs that you've made.
But I would not focus on self-pity. I would focus on self-improvement.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So, all right.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 You're going to be okay. No, no more self-pity.
Hold yourself to a higher standard and block him.

Speaker 2 I will. All right.
Well, I'd love an update from you in about a month.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I hope that you feel a little bit better about the situation. I hope that you update us with some things that you've been doing to work on yourself.
And I hope that

Speaker 2 if he does reach out, that you don't take the bait. I imagine

Speaker 2 if he does reach out, I hope you block him to the point where it's very difficult. But if he finds a way through, he is going to want to, he's going to gaslight you.

Speaker 2 He's going to try to make you feel bad, like you did something wrong. And it's going to almost, he's going to make it sound like you owe him some kind of apology.
Just don't take the bait.

Speaker 2 Even if he knocks on your door and says he's thinking about you and even if he's thinking about leaving his fiancé, like this is not your guy.

Speaker 2 There's no world where there's no i don't think there's anything he should be able to do to win you back or to get you to want to invest more in this person i think you would be giving up on yourself if you said yes to him yeah all right okay

Speaker 2 all right well it's gonna things will get better you're going through a rough patch right now start holding yourself to a higher standard All right.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 All right. Take care.

Speaker 4 You too. All right.
Bye-bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Hi, I'm Lexi. I'm 26 years old, and my mom is getting married at the same time as me.

Speaker 4 And I'm just wondering how you would suggest setting boundaries for that situation.

Speaker 2 When you say the same time, like on the same day, like same weekend, same season?

Speaker 4 Not the same day,

Speaker 4 but she hasn't set a date yet. And I'm getting married in a couple months.
And we're suspecting she's getting married a couple weeks before I'm going to be getting married.

Speaker 2 Why do you feel like you need to set boundaries around this?

Speaker 4 There's been a couple instances, like when I picked up my wedding dress, we started dress shopping for her at the same time.

Speaker 4 And then when we were like going through the music for walking down the aisle and stuff, she started pulling up songs that she wanted to walk down the aisle.

Speaker 4 And at first, I didn't have an issue with it. But then, as it's continued happening, it's just felt really weird and bizarre.

Speaker 4 And I really don't want to step on her toes because I want it to be special for her. But also, it just feels really weird to me.
And it's beginning to bug me a little bit more the more it happens.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 2 What is your relationship with your mom in general? And then follow up question to that. What is your relationship with her Beyoncé?

Speaker 4 I've always been super close to my mom but we we have our little bickers every now and then sure and then in regards to her fiancé um it's been hit or miss at first me and my siblings weren't like the hugest fans but he's grown on us and um we are supportive of them getting married and i don't want her to think that we're not um it's just weird with the timing and everything okay Well, what do you think?

Speaker 2 I mean, this is definitely like a you problem.

Speaker 2 And it sounds like you're acknowledging it, that it just bothers you and it sounds like i'm hearing you recognize that you're not even a hundred percent sure if it should bother you but you're just acknowledging that it does and trying to figure out what you should do about that feeling yeah okay

Speaker 4 yeah and i brought it up to her and how did you bring it up to her so we actually were like trying on wedding dresses at the same time because I was trying mine on and we were figuring out stuff.

Speaker 4 And I brought it up to her that I just felt like it was kind of weird. And

Speaker 4 she ended up having a meltdown about the fact that we weren't happy for her.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And you use the word weird.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. Try not to use that word with people you're trying to have sensitive conversations with

Speaker 2 about their actions that, I don't know, bother you somehow, right? Unless it really is weird and not weird, like, like you feel weird about it.

Speaker 2 But weird is such a judgmental word. And when you're using that to describe how you're feeling about someone else's actions, it's going to really be upsetting to them.

Speaker 2 I mean, imagine planning your wedding and one of your friends or your mom or someone who's whose opinion mattered to you, right? Came up to you and said, like,

Speaker 2 that's just like weird that you're doing that.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, you would feel like, well, first of all, you feel very judged. Like, what weird? I'm weird.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, so try not to try to remove that from your vocabulary if you're trying to have a conversation with someone where you're trying to find some kind of common ground. Okay.
That's fair. Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 I'll definitely start there. So not surprising.
that your mom had a visceral reaction and felt like you didn't support her in that moment, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 From your point of view, I can see why it feels a little weird, right? I'm sure you've imagined getting married. This is your first time getting married.
Is that correct? Yeah. Okay.
So

Speaker 2 you're certainly hoping this is the last time. This is your moment.
So you're approaching this wedding as this is the one time I'm getting married.

Speaker 2 And you definitely did not imagine going dress shopping with your mom. for both of your dresses.

Speaker 2 You imagined your mom would be there fully in support of your day, of your moment, of this experience that's yours. And so in that regard, it's weird to you.
So I get it.

Speaker 2 But like, again, without using that word or using that language, I feel like you could have just gone to mom and said, hey, mom, like, first of all, before I say anything, really excited for you.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm really happy you have found love again.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, we love Chuck. He treats you well.

Speaker 2 I'm really happy for you. Excited to celebrate your wedding.
If it's okay with you, and I really hope it is, can we separate planning for your wedding and planning for my wedding?

Speaker 2 You know, if you want to go dress shopping, let me know. I'm showing up for you.
I'll be there for you.

Speaker 2 Let me know. But like, can this also just be my experience for my wedding? And can you, like, can we, can we separate it?

Speaker 2 I don't want to take anything from your wedding, but maybe I'm being selfish, mom, but I don't want to share this experience with anyone, even you.

Speaker 2 I want you to have your own experience, you know, and again, she might still have a problem with that. I don't know.
I don't know your mom, but I feel like you're then, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, the way positioning that is first, you lead with what you want her to have and you reaffirm your support. and you validate her because already, you know,

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I imagine most parents who get remarried and who have young children, or who have children, are worried about a sense of judgment and acceptance from their kids about them moving on or remarrying and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2 So make sure when you're having these tough conversations, be, you know, take a moment and think about how might mom be sensitive to what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 You know, what, what might trigger her if I put myself in her shoes, you know, yada, yada, yada. And I feel like that would go a long way because I don't think, you know, listen, am I right?

Speaker 2 Like, you just don't want to, you don't want to share this moment. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I feel like, too, there's just been a lot of moments that have been shared. So she got engaged like two years ago, the same day my dad got married.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 And so that added a layer where the engagement just started off on the wrong foot, I feel like. And then my sister is also going to be getting engaged and married anytime now.

Speaker 4 And so all of it together and then us on top of that, not knowing when the wedding's going to be. And like the wedding could be two weeks before mine.

Speaker 2 Why don't you know?

Speaker 4 And they're waiting for some legal paperwork to get figured out first, but they have made it well known that the second that that's figured out, they want to go ahead and just do it.

Speaker 2 And they still expect everyone to be there.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, I mean, you know, that's, again, like that, that's a logistical conversation, it sounds like.
So just a couple of things from what I'm hearing, right?

Speaker 2 It's not, I wouldn't be shocked if I were to have a chance to talk with your mom that she feels like she has to work around everyone else's moment.

Speaker 2 The way you're talking about your mom getting engaged and getting married, it seems, it sounds almost like, you know, she had her time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And as if like, it's like you're happy for her, but she has less of a

Speaker 2 I don't know, we all have people in our family who have a, have a way of making things about them.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 is that how your mom is? Does your mom have a way of

Speaker 2 whether it seems on purpose or not on purpose that she's always

Speaker 2 every time someone else is having a moment, your mom coincidentally somehow is

Speaker 2 also trying to have

Speaker 2 her own moment?

Speaker 4 I feel bad saying it, but yeah,

Speaker 2 kind of. Okay.
Well, that might be true, but

Speaker 2 this is definitely a do you want to be right? Do you want to be happy situation where like, what, what is it really costing you?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because like that, if, if your mom is like that, clearly it's coming from some kind of place of not feeling like she's ever gotten whatever validation she feels like she has. And I don't know.

Speaker 2 Maybe your mom's a raging narcissist. I don't know.
But chances are maybe she can be a little self-centered at bad times. And it probably comes from some fucking childhood trauma or whatever.

Speaker 2 But I guess the big as far as you like, what is it costing you? Yeah.

Speaker 2 To like give your mom the benefit of the the doubt as far as her wedding and wedding planning if your mom wants to like do a shotgun wedding elope and

Speaker 2 immediately get married as soon as she legally can well that is her prerogative

Speaker 2 if she wants her family to share in her celebration of her wedding i'm not saying when you plan a wedding you you you have to check in with everyone you want there, but there's a reason why people send out wedding invitations months in advance because they want to give the people who they want at their wedding time to, you know, get their affairs in order.

Speaker 2 And, and, you know, depending on what flexibility or flexibility they don't have in their lives, it gives people time to like make plans. So you could just, you know, you could say, mom, also,

Speaker 2 as far as when you're going to have this wedding, like, We want to be there and celebrate with you, but like, we need a heads up here. And like, yes, again, I'm not expecting you.

Speaker 2 Get married when you want, but like, our wedding date is set. I want to be there to celebrate with you.
You know what I'm saying? Like,

Speaker 2 if, how many kids, how many siblings do you have? Four. Have you or any of the kids gone out of your way to tell your mom, we really want to be there for you? No.

Speaker 2 I just, I couldn't help but wonder if all the kids said that, that your mom would probably be willing to schedule her wedding around you guys if you made it clear that you wanted to be there.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a good point. You know, so yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I mean, so it just sounds like, I don't know, you know, sometimes people irritate me all the time, you know, including family members.

Speaker 2 And sometimes I think we can have family members who just have a way to about irritating us.

Speaker 2 And sometimes we have a knack of kind of seeing some of their flaws rather than offering them a little empathy and grace. And there's a little edge that you have towards your mom.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And again, maybe she's done some things to deserve that edge, but if it doesn't cost you much to give your mom, you know, some validation that she clearly needs other than like the principle of it, you know, then it just might make your life a hell of a lot easier.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Now I get where you're coming from and I agree.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So step one, I mean, you could probably wrap this all into one conversation with your mom. Yeah, totally.
Hey, mom, I want to talk about our weddings. One, like, when do you plan on getting married?

Speaker 2 Because like, we all want to be there and we want to be able to celebrate with you, but like we all have busy lives. I got a wedding coming up.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't, you know, I'm not expecting you to work around our schedules, but like we just need to know so we can try to make plans because we all want to be there and support you and we're really happy for you and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2 And like, I think that would go a long way. I bet your mom would really appreciate that too.
Mom, can we talk about my wedding? And like,

Speaker 2 first of all, you need to apologize for calling her weird because that's how she heard it. And you got to be like, that was a really poor choice of words.
It's not weird.

Speaker 2 I just, I'm, you know, maybe I'm being a little selfish, but I, I really want my wedding experience to, to be about me.

Speaker 2 And I want your second wedding to feel about you. So can we just separate the two going forward, you know, and let me know how I can show up for you, mom,

Speaker 2 because I want to do that. And

Speaker 2 I, can you still keep showing up for me? But can we, I don't, can we do it separately? I don't want to have like a joint wedding thing, you know Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think I'll have that conversation with her. Great.
That's really good.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you. I really appreciate that.
No problem.

Speaker 2 Glad I can help. Anything else I can help out with or are you

Speaker 4 I think I'm ready to rock and roll.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 2 Well, let us let me know what mom if this works. Yeah, I will.
I feel like it will.

Speaker 4 I'll keep you updated. All right.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, thanks for the call.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 I appreciate it. All right.
All right. Bye-bye.
Bye.

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Speaker 5 Hey, Nick. This is Emma.
How are you doing today?

Speaker 3 I'm good. And my name is Seth.

Speaker 2 Hi, Seth. How can I help you guys?

Speaker 3 Well, so I have a long time with smoking marijuana and it's kind of been something that has just been a constant part of our relationship.

Speaker 3 And only recently have I really come to terms with using the word addiction.

Speaker 3 And it's really just something that Emma has kind of put up with for a long time and really has finally just put her foot down and kind of made the ultimatum that it's either that or her.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 And that's kind of where we're at at this point.

Speaker 2 Okay. Curious.
Interesting. Emma, I'm curious, like, why are we at the point where you feel like we're at the ultimatum point?

Speaker 5 I would say that it's because we've been together for 13 years, and this has really been an issue since day one.

Speaker 5 And in those 13 years, you know, I think we've seen an advent in marijuana use and the forms that it comes in.

Speaker 5 I mean, it used to just be like kind of smoking it, but then, you know, the different devices came along and the vapes and all of that.

Speaker 5 And it just, it started to feel like a third member of our relationship.

Speaker 5 And what I would say is that the bigger issue that this kind of falls under is that it seems like a lot of Seth's behavior over the last few years has just become increasingly selfish.

Speaker 5 And we have a family now. We have a little girl and it's selfish in what way?

Speaker 5 So what I would say kind of ballooned over the marijuana issue for some time is that we practice what's called ethical non-monogamy.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 my husband actually contracted HPV and gave it to me by having unprotected sex with another partner.

Speaker 5 And that has led us down a long road of trying to explore the issues in our relationship and kind of our attitudes toward each other.

Speaker 5 And within that, marijuana use and some other financial issues came up because it just felt like between the ethical non-monogamy and the smoking and some spending issues, it seemed like a lot of what Seth's actions were were really just kind of focused toward his, you know, immediate wants and desires and not on what was best for our family.

Speaker 5 Whereas I feel like I'm kind of constantly working and focused on what's best for our family and the three of us and not just myself.

Speaker 2 Okay. Was that like a violation of your guys' trust in terms of having the unprotected sex?

Speaker 2 Was your expectation he was having protected sex and then

Speaker 2 got

Speaker 2 this HPV and passed it on to you?

Speaker 3 Or was that just like it happened it sucked but like no one made a mistake i'm curious no totally it was um me breaking boundaries and

Speaker 3 me basically thinking like oh like this is kind of a choice that i'm making that really is between me and the partner that i'm having sex with and not really thinking about how this would affect Emma.

Speaker 3 And like, this happened two years ago. I've really had a chance to sort of reflect on the consequences of that and understand that, like, wow, like, that was a really selfish choice.

Speaker 2 Were you high on marijuana when it happened?

Speaker 3 Probably, yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you feel like it affected your choice? Like, do you feel like you would have made a different choice if you weren't on marijuana?

Speaker 3 No, no. Like, I don't, I don't think like it was.

Speaker 2 And Emma,

Speaker 2 you're agreeing with him, it sounds like, for the people listening.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, I don't smoke marijuana. I have kind of my own, my own feelings about that that are independent of him and just how it affects my body.

Speaker 5 So, with I remember with this particular person, I know that they were a pretty habitual smoker. So, I think that that was something that they did together with some regularity.
Okay.

Speaker 3 I also think it was a bit of an issue of

Speaker 3 this person was also not

Speaker 3 being particularly responsible with their sexual health.

Speaker 3 And so, it was just just like, oh, like you are not only making choices for your safety, but like you really have to think about your partner's safety. And

Speaker 3 to expand on that, like, I think that's how things kind of have evolved for like our finances and my marijuana use.

Speaker 3 Sorry if I'm jumping the gun, but like I have not used marijuana for the past like month and a half.

Speaker 5 So I know that it seems like we have a number of issues, but I think the umbrella kind of question that I would have for you is like, I feel like my husband's behavior is often incredibly selfish, but I do love our life together and we've been together for 13 years and we have a beautiful family and I want to protect that.

Speaker 5 And I'm, I'm kind of trying to figure out how to put this stuff in the past and be able to move on because it feels like when we have fights now, this stuff comes up and you know, I'll hold the HPV against him or, you know, the habitual marijuana marijuana smoking and things that have been big issues in the past.

Speaker 5 And I know that he's making an effort to be better. And I don't want to hold these things against him, but I continue finding myself doing so.

Speaker 2 How did you guys do? How did you deal with the initial betrayal?

Speaker 5 Oh, extreme anger. I mean, you were actually getting on a plane with our daughter when you found out that.

Speaker 2 Well, I just mean, but how have you guys worked through it?

Speaker 4 If

Speaker 3 you've been in marriage therapy for the past two years.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And I think sometimes you feel like we're not getting a lot out of that.

Speaker 5 And Nick, I've been such a, you know, fan and habitual listener of your show for so many years that I really wanted your perspective on this because I listened to all the advice episodes and I just feel like you would have a perspective different than either of ours.

Speaker 5 And our therapist is wonderful, but I just, I wanted to hear what someone who didn't know us and wasn't a therapist had to say.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, listen, I obviously, like, I don't, I haven't been talking to you guys for a while, but in this little bit, this very limited time, I, I'm just, I guess my big question is

Speaker 2 why,

Speaker 2 if you want your husband to quit marijuana, I would assume and hope that it's solely for health benefits for him, you know, like other than the financial aspect of it, obviously marijuana costs money and then, you know, don't know your guys' financial situation.

Speaker 2 So certainly that is a, if you're buying marijuana in lieu of, say, buying something for the family that the family needs, and you know i i guess i get that

Speaker 2 but the way you're describing it is this is if like you are i can't help but wonder if your your husband hurt you there's a point of contention here you're upset i don't know i'd love to hear more why you've always like you mentioned addict certainly i think marijuana can be an addictive drug but like you know a lot of people it's like hey it helps me with anxiety and of all the things that like i do to unwind you know i'd rather have a little you know a gummy than a get drunk type of thing and to each their own, so to speak, everything in moderation.

Speaker 2 But is there a part of you that is taking away his marijuana usage as a point of like retaliation? Cause you just want to see if he's willing to do that for you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's a great point. And that's definitely something that we've talked about.
And here's, here's my issue with the marijuana: is, you know, personally, I've just never enjoyed it.

Speaker 5 I don't enjoy the smell. I've never kind of really enjoyed any of the culture around it.
I do know that it has a lot of benefits for a lot of people. Completely understand that.

Speaker 5 And for a long time, it felt like it was not this big player in our relationship. It was there and I didn't love it, but, and we certainly had our fights about it earlier on.

Speaker 5 But I would say in the last five years, you know, since the pandemic happened, since our daughter was born, it just felt like it was always there.

Speaker 5 It was like this presence that was always in our life.

Speaker 5 I mean, for years, I would be the one who would put our daughter down for bed and then he would go to the basement and smoke or go to the dispensary and buy what he wanted.

Speaker 5 Or when it really became an issue recently, and when I kind of really gave him like the ultimate ultimatum, which I really didn't want to do, was when he told me that he was going to go to the grocery store, you know, after we had been somewhere together, and I called him and asked where he was.

Speaker 5 And, you know, he was further away than he should have been at that point. And it came out that he was, you know, lying to me about going to the store and he was really going to the dispensary.

Speaker 5 And I think that it changes his personality. I think that it, it, I love my husband's personality.
And I think that he is in.

Speaker 2 I mean, how much in what way? Like, he gets like a little zoned out and

Speaker 5 goofy or zoned out. I think, I think you get a little bit more agitated.
Like, we're more likely to fight when you're high. Your temper gets a little,

Speaker 5 you become more testy.

Speaker 3 I mean, I'll just, yeah, like for me, I think it was, it was not something I was consuming in moderation.

Speaker 3 It was kind of like I was consuming it whenever I could or whenever there was an opportune moment.

Speaker 3 And I like, I wasn't even like actually getting high anymore.

Speaker 3 And I kind of had this conversation with someone a week or so ago. It's like, I was using marijuana as though I was like a rock star.

Speaker 3 Like I was just like smoking all day, every day, as though I had just like. unlimited funds to be able to just do it whenever, wherever.

Speaker 5 Well, and this also meant like it was interrupting our lives also because it would be like he was going to the dispensary all the time. He was smoking at work and affecting his work.

Speaker 5 Like if we were traveling, he was when we would travel, he'd be thinking about where he could get it.

Speaker 5 And it also put a lot of the parenting responsibilities on me because I feel like for so long, I was doing bedtimes by myself or just like doing the nighttime routine.

Speaker 5 because somehow we fell into this routine of, you know, our night would end and I would take care of our daughter.

Speaker 3 And you would go. And And I was like kind of itching to like, yeah, like wrap up.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you were, you were looking for your chance to be by yourself or like we'd come home from a party or an event or whatever.

Speaker 5 And then it would be like he'd immediately go to the basement to start smoking and have his time for himself. And I want him to have his time for himself.

Speaker 5 But, you know, when it's one o'clock on a Wednesday and we're supposed to be working or, you know, doing our thing and he's worried about, you know, vaping instead or where he can get more

Speaker 5 weed, it just started to feel like a huge interruption

Speaker 3 so what has it been like in the month and a half you haven't smoked oof it has been honestly like a huge relief like it um and and like i genuinely like hate people who like have these like born-again like sobriety lifestyles like that is not who i am um

Speaker 3 But it really does like have this new clarity to be like, oh, like weed didn't make you relaxed. Like, you can relax on your own.
Like, weed doesn't make you funny. You're funny on your own.

Speaker 3 I will say that, like, I'm terrified of the idea of like letting my guard down and like sharing a joint with someone and then getting right back into where I was.

Speaker 3 And so it's, it's kind of like,

Speaker 3 I'm not putting a whole lot of effort into keeping my guard up.

Speaker 5 Like, for whatever reason, thankfully, I really have let go of a lot of the desire to to smoke again i mean i am kind of yeah cautiously waiting for that desire to creep back up again so i guess what what what am what can i help out with like what are we what are you guys trying to figure out so i think you know with this kind of selfish behavior like the smoking the hpv like the sex the all of it it kind of it feels like my husband is constantly kind of and I think that you would say this too, he's like constantly seeking like some sort of like high or like something impulsive, whether it's shopping or sex or getting high or something like that.

Speaker 5 And for context also, I'm sure that this helps is, you know, only in the last year or so have we started been talking about this as like an addiction.

Speaker 5 And I feel like as millennials, we've been kind of wronged because we've been sold this idea that marijuana is an addictive.

Speaker 5 But then when I find my husband, you know, itching for it in the middle of the day when they're just nothing else is happening, to me, that seems like a problem.

Speaker 5 And I do come from a family where addiction plays a big part in the family dynamic, unfortunately.

Speaker 5 So when I started seeing my husband's behavior kind of mirror that of my father, even though it was with a different substance, I was like, oh, we need to do that.

Speaker 5 And then that added up with, you know, this kind of constant desire to be like. dating and doing things in ethical non-monogamy where he showed me that he can't be responsible.

Speaker 5 It was just like, wow, I am married to someone and have a child with someone and own a house with someone who is really selfish. And I don't know how to contend with that.

Speaker 5 But I, and there have been people who have told me, like,

Speaker 5 get out of this marriage while you can, while you're young, while you could, you know, maybe have a second marriage.

Speaker 2 But like, I, I really love my husband. I, I don't doubt that, you know, I mean, obviously the, the non-mona, the non-monogamy situation was a violation of trust.
It was not cool, obviously.

Speaker 2 And there were consequences to that. I guess guess my point, like, yes, Seth sounds like he has demonstrated some selfishness, and that's true.

Speaker 2 He also seems to have demonstrated, like, you know, you guys are going to couples therapy. He seems contrite.

Speaker 2 Unless he's like a habitual, like, apologizer just for the sake of shutting you up. He also seems like, you know, he hasn't smoked marijuana in a month and a half.

Speaker 2 He's acknowledged that there's some addictive elements to it. So yeah, it seems a bit extreme for, you know,

Speaker 2 unless you're leaving some things out here that that you're not communicating. It seems extreme that your friends are like, leave this monster and get out while you can.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 I guess maybe knowing that this is going to be kind of on a public forum, I am kind of trying to protect some other things.

Speaker 5 But I also found out two months ago, right before he stopped smoking, that he had racked up a severe amount of credit card debt. Okay.

Speaker 2 So, is that like

Speaker 5 well over $50,000? And it was a surprise to me.

Speaker 5 And I think a lot of, and that was really my,

Speaker 5 like that felt like rock bottom to me because I was like, I've stayed with this man.

Speaker 2 I'm assuming that's, and that's a great deal of money to you.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, like, we, we both have good full-time jobs, but, you know, we, we live in the San Francisco Bay Area where, you know, housing isn't cheap and, you know, you daycare is expensive.

Speaker 2 And so how have you guys dealt with this? I mean, like, Seth,

Speaker 2 what's your point of view on this? Do you feel like you are someone who can be trusted?

Speaker 3 Yes, I think,

Speaker 3 I think that's one of the things that we're working through in marriage therapy is that

Speaker 3 I think Emma and I have had a lot of sort of

Speaker 3 what our therapist calls like enforcer type. Like, like, I think I get I get worried of what her reaction to things are.

Speaker 3 So, I either like hide things from her or omit things from her because I'm worried about her reaction to things.

Speaker 2 Sure, but that's still being dishonest. And

Speaker 2 that,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, I've always been a bit triggered by how that, how you're communicating that in a sense, that because I feel like it's a very clever way of quite honestly, to your wife's point, describing your own selfishness that tries to come across is that you're worried about her feelings as opposed to, like, yeah, you just, you don't like, you

Speaker 2 is it like you wanted to do this, you considered how it might affect your wife, but you didn't care enough to have it stop you.

Speaker 2 And then instead of dealing with the consequences, you just didn't tell her because you knew she'd be upset.

Speaker 3 How do you feel about that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I think a pretty small one.

Speaker 5 That feels right to me and in line with what our therapist has said. And it's, you know, my reactions have become heightened because it just kind of feels like I keep coming, you know, hit after hit.

Speaker 5 Like first, it was, and like our marriage wasn't perfect before the HPV, but it seemed, you know, relative to how things are now, it seemed like things were pretty good.

Speaker 5 But it was first the HPV and then it felt like the, you know, marijuana use up, you know, went up even more. And then the spending became a little bit crazy.

Speaker 5 And it got to the point where I was like, am I being smart for myself and my daughter?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, if

Speaker 2 Emma constantly has to wonder if she can trust you, Seth, it is no fun feeling you have to play watchdog or cop or detective with your own spouse.

Speaker 2 You know, no one, like, you know, for all like, you know, like, you're not supposed to go through your person's phone.

Speaker 2 Like, yeah, you're not, you know, and no one, I don't think most people really want to.

Speaker 2 No one wants to be given reasons why they're not supposed to be able to just take their partner at their word, you know, certainly on a consistent basis.

Speaker 2 So if your default is to do what you want and then lying about it because like you're trying to not upset her, which is ultimately you being like, I don't want to deal with the consequences of doing what I wanted to do in that moment I wanted to do it.

Speaker 2 That's not sustainable. Like, yeah, it's, it's exhausting, honestly.

Speaker 2 And I also, I also like, to me, the marijuana feels like like the least of your guys' problem.

Speaker 2 And I, oh, it kind of, again, kind kind of comes across as like, well, if I, if, it's almost like a test, you know, it's like, is he willing to, you know, there's been several examples of what Seth hasn't been willing to do for Emma.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And I think to some degree, it, it, you know, I have treated it like a test.
And I, and I, and I, I hate to say that, but

Speaker 5 you're, you're not wrong because it feels like, it feels like I've become completely out of control of our life and my marriage. Because like, I'm trying so hard to work.

Speaker 2 I guess I would put it this way: you know, like, and again, everything you're describing about marijuana can relate to it on some, it, it obviously has addictive elements.

Speaker 2 It certainly might be the least addictive compared to, say, like alcohol and cocaine and heroin, but it's still addictive. You know, people have gone to rehab to get over marijuana smoking.

Speaker 2 So, like, not, I'm certainly not an expert on it. I'm not giving any type of medical advice, to be clear, but it certainly seems to be less addictive.
No doubt that it changes Seth's personality.

Speaker 2 You can probably become more aloof and just, you know, stinky, whatever.

Speaker 2 But again, from what I'm hearing from you, you guys are married, you have this family, you love your husband, you, I think you feel the love from him, but there are things Seth is doing that is making you feel objectively unsafe in this relationship.

Speaker 2 You literally contracted a sexually transmitted disease, certainly something you can live with, but it obviously has its risks. Racking up 50K in debt is a very scary situation unless you guys

Speaker 2 have money to waste. But even then,

Speaker 2 there's a violation of trust there. And then that can certainly put you guys in compromising situations.

Speaker 2 And it feels like almost for you, Emma, like getting him to quit marijuana has been like this consolation prize to some of the other violations he's done.

Speaker 2 But I almost feel like it's a false flag of comfort because like, you know what I'm saying? Like there's he's, he clearly has been willing to do it. And your problem isn't what Seth's willing to do.

Speaker 2 Your problem is when Seth wants to do something and the moment he wants to do it, he A, doesn't consider your feelings and B, is willing to omit or lie about it.

Speaker 2 And so you giving him an ultimatum and something that you can police, to me, isn't really solving the problem. Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, it does make sense. And I, I didn't like giving that ultimatum, but it felt like this was so many years of just built up issues.

Speaker 5 And it got to the the point where I was like, Am I just kind of a long for the ride of his life, getting to behave how he wants and kind of throw caution to the wind? And

Speaker 5 I, you know, I just outright told him, like, you know, if you want to be a single man and only have responsibility toward your child, I will be okay.

Speaker 2 What made you guys get into a non-monogamous relationship in the first place?

Speaker 3 Emma was, we met in college.

Speaker 3 Emma had a really jealous previous relationship where, you know, he was looking through her phone and, you know, making comments about, like, oh, like, why are we talking to so-and-so and such-and-such.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, I think we had a lot of like really early conversations about it's natural to be flirtatious and have, you know, we're both pretty outgoing people and social butterflies.

Speaker 3 And I think we just kind of had one conversation that led to another, to another, and it kind of all snowballed into like, hey, it's cool to have desire or interest or fantasies about other people.

Speaker 3 And we kind of learned through trial and error, how to go about doing that responsibly and ethically. And obviously we've had hits and misses and learning what works and what doesn't.

Speaker 5 What really felt like our beginning to me was I was in grad school and a friend kissed me like completely out of the blue. And, you know, I was 25 at the time.

Speaker 5 Like I knew nothing in my life but monogamy. You You know, I felt like I had to tell Seth because I was like, oh my God, I've cheated and we've been together for five years.

Speaker 5 Like, and I really loved him. I saw a future with him.
So I was like, I have to be honest about this event that happened. And I was, I guess, really happily surprised when I told him.

Speaker 5 And then that turned into kind of a nice, like, evolved conversation rather than, you know, us breaking up or, you know, some sort of worse response from him.

Speaker 5 Because to that point, I felt like I had done something very wrong.

Speaker 2 I'm curious, Seth, for the people,

Speaker 2 for the limited people I know who dabble in this type of lifestyle, what seems to be consistent with them is that what works about it is like there is this extreme trust, you know, like to what Emma just described, it was, oh my God, this happened.

Speaker 2 I want to tell him you, you told Seth, Seth, you didn't get mad or you worked through it.

Speaker 2 And like there was a bond there and there was like, and it became, you know, for all the couples who participated in this, why it works is because it's less about the sex.

Speaker 2 You guys, these people are able to have this like physical, they're able to fulfill these physical desires and kinks that they have while simultaneously elevating the trust that they have.

Speaker 2 Because while most couples aren't comfortable with sharing and this

Speaker 2 and things like that, there's this kind of intense level of trust of being open about being physically intimate with other people.

Speaker 2 So I'm curious with Seth, like, one, like, if you are being dishonest dishonest about other things, like the whole, like, I feel like the only way that ethical non-nonogamy works, and again, I'm no expert in it, is to have that trust.

Speaker 2 And yet why I asked the question is that it kind of suggests that, like, you know, I don't know what your intentions were in the beginning, but like, you know, there's a lot of people who are in these non-monogamous relationships.

Speaker 2 And the more questions you ask, it's just like, well, one person didn't want to give up having sex with other people and they convinced their partner, but it really isn't about having this intense trust with each other.

Speaker 2 It's just about one person getting their way. And so I guess my question to you is like, which one is it more for you?

Speaker 2 Because in order for making this ethical non-nonogamous relationship work, like if you don't have trust, then how do you guys participate in this lifestyle?

Speaker 3 I mean, at least, you know, in this aspect, I think we have a lot of trust and a lot of transparency with one another. And

Speaker 3 as parents, I think it's taken on a whole new meaning.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but how do you cherry pick what you're honest about and what you're not honest about?

Speaker 3 I mean, I think that's what we discuss in marriage therapy.

Speaker 3 But continuing my thought,

Speaker 3 as a husband, I want to see my wife feel her very best and be reminded that she is still very desired and embrace her sexuality and be able to have these really cool experiences where she is exploring her sexuality and being reminded that she is still very desired.

Speaker 3 And I think that is so important.

Speaker 5 But do you realize how

Speaker 5 that all kind of becomes unimportant or we can't focus on that when you are making me feel unsafe?

Speaker 5 Sure. Because I don't feel like I can go and safely have.

Speaker 5 those other relationships when my husband, you know, I'm sending you out out there hoping that when you're dating and doing your thing, that you are being safe because that trust was compromised in such a big way.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So I appreciate you wanting me to feel all of those good things and I want to feel that too, but it's really hard to focus on that when kind of my basic safety and security in my marriage was so compromised.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, also like,

Speaker 2 I hear everything you're saying, Seth, but it. you're getting something out of it too.

Speaker 3 Sure. I mean, it's a

Speaker 3 mutual thing that we participate in. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 But I guess what I'm saying is, you know, to Emma's point, it's just like, that's great. You want your wife to feel sexually desired and beautiful and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2 But that's more like two friends supporting each other's kinks rather than a married couple living out a lifestyle. But again, their primary focus is to have

Speaker 2 a marriage that works. And to have a marriage that works, you have to have trust.
And to ms but you have to feel safe and you can't feel safe in one category of your life and

Speaker 2 and not feel safe in another you know if you can't and so it's like well i only lie to her about money so like she shouldn't be worried about me lying to her about sex like i don't think the human brain works that way i i could be wrong i'm not a psychologist but i i no you're you're totally valid on that yeah so i don't know as a human being how you compartmentalize

Speaker 2 your partner's lies.

Speaker 2 A lie just feels like a lie.

Speaker 5 Well, and I think that that's how, like, what I, what I initially wanted to kind of bring up as my question to you is like, I think I made a decision to stay in this marriage.

Speaker 5 Like, I didn't immediately leave him after

Speaker 5 kind of these tough events happened. So I'm like, I'm, I'm trying to put the effort forward to stay and make this work and be in the best marriage we can.

Speaker 5 But I feel myself like we get into a fight about the dishes or laundry, and then somehow that snowballs into the HPV or the smoking.

Speaker 5 And like, I don't want to do that because I think that frankly, I'm a very good person. I really know how to fight and argue logically and have those conversations.
But I get hurt.

Speaker 5 And then I like, I don't go back there because I know that that's like the low blood.

Speaker 2 It's a painful experience. I mean, like, listen, that I don't have a, that is a something you guys are going to have to work through, you know, like, and that's, that's what we're doing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we're trying.

Speaker 2 But more importantly, the passes is something you guys have to work through in terms of like,

Speaker 2 you both have to give each other some grace.

Speaker 2 Seth, you have to give Emma some grace that, you know, every once in a while, you might trigger her that makes her go back to that place of those violations of trust.

Speaker 2 And then she might say something that feels petty and reactive and unproductive and even hurtful on your end.

Speaker 2 And there's a balance there.

Speaker 2 The marijuana smoking, again, like, you know, again, outside of like, it sounds like Seth, you also just appreciate, you know, like maybe you were a little addicted and maybe you're too reliant on it.

Speaker 2 And there's aspects of you not having smoked for the past six weeks. You see some of those benefits.

Speaker 2 Again, I still think the ultimatum of it is like unproductive as far as the relationship goes because like unless you feel like going forward that when Seth wants to do something that he's worried you might not approve of or he doesn't feel like checking in with you and saying, hey, I want to buy this or, hey, I want to do this with this person.

Speaker 2 If you have to worry constantly whether he's going to be up front with you, that's the thing that you guys have to get work through. That's the thing you have to figure out.

Speaker 2 It seems unclear whether you guys have figured that out yet.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I've been practicing that kind of in a way that feels unnatural for me.
to be like, hey, like, I want to make this stupid purchase.

Speaker 3 And I know that that's something you're probably going to tell me no.

Speaker 3 And I don't like hearing that, but it's something that I just need to get used to hearing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Otherwise, you don't want to be married, you know?

Speaker 5 Well, yeah. Yeah.
And that's what I keep saying to him is I'm like, if you just want to like spend the money that you make on whatever you want, including marijuana.

Speaker 5 And if you want to like just, just only be responsible to our daughter, like. you can do that.
But just tell me now when I'm 35 and not when I'm 45 or 55.

Speaker 5 Right now, I feel like I could go and like really continue my life happily.

Speaker 2 Well, to that end, again, like not going, not to be, but like you mentioned, again, this ultimatum, right? Where

Speaker 2 like, again, if Seth wants to stop smoking marijuana, then definitely, by all means, that'd be great.

Speaker 2 You, Emma, you have every right to like kind of like be annoyed by him, him consuming a marijuana. That being said, I think it would be a step in the right direction if Seth

Speaker 2 wanted to smoke marijuana and came to you and said,

Speaker 2 I would like to, I'm going to go smoke some weed. And I guess you can say no, but unless you really had a problem, like, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, you guys have to practice the ability for Seth to be able to like ask you something and you say yes, or even sometimes say no.

Speaker 2 It's not like, and it's not like, not like you're the mom and you have to parent him, but the extremes of like, never do this.

Speaker 2 So then he starts hiding it and things like that, or you're telling him what to do. And then you have to be able to trust that Seth can like use things in moderate, I mean, you know, moderation.

Speaker 2 Like if you, to your point, Seth, you're like, you talked about like, well, I started smoking and next thing you know, I'm smoking all day, every day.

Speaker 2 Well, like, if you are doing that, then, then, yeah, maybe, maybe going back to weed smoking is not it for you.

Speaker 2 But to me, it's more about practicing the communicating and agreeing and compromising and finding common ground and both of you to be able to bring things up where the other person says, I'm not comfortable with that choice right now.

Speaker 2 And I would, I'd really like you not to do that. And then the other person's saying, okay, well, I don't, I'm not going to do it then.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think so often we really have conversations in our own head with the other and kind of make choices based on expectations

Speaker 3 or

Speaker 3 previous interactions. And so like we've kind of given the disservice to the other by like not actually communicating and giving the chance to talk things out.

Speaker 2 I mean, also, you know, it's a lot of it is how much, you know, saying you can't smoke tonight.

Speaker 2 If my wife said, please don't smoke tonight, I would respond to that emotionally better than you can't smoke tonight. You know, no one wants to feel like they're married to their parent.

Speaker 2 You know, I would rather

Speaker 2 do something for someone than be told I can't do something. So that's, you know, in terms of like how you guys

Speaker 2 communicate with each other, that always just lands better. That being said,

Speaker 2 you know, I do think you get, as husband and wife, you should honor each other and, you know, be wanting to, you know, and then work on how you guys communicate. But clearly, Emma doesn't feel safe.

Speaker 2 That should bother you, Seth, a lot.

Speaker 2 And there's no amount of I let my wife feel sexy is going to make up for the fact that she can't trust her husband, especially the fact that you guys have a kid together.

Speaker 2 And if I were were you, I would run, I would really, I would, I would allow that to bother me to the point where, you know,

Speaker 2 you would want to make some meaningful changes. It's your job as a man and as a father and as a husband to make your child and wife feel safe.

Speaker 2 If you do anything else, like making her feel sexy is way on the bottom compared to making her feel safe. That's just my opinion.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 you seem to have kind of an emotional reaction to that.

Speaker 3 I mean, that's just.

Speaker 5 Is it tough to hear?

Speaker 3 It's a lot to say with a limited amount of information. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 5 Like, there's no way that he can know our whole life. And, like,

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess my question is to both of you. I mean, like, is I don't want to be speaking out of turn, but I'm just, I'm just repeating your, how, how you don't feel safe, but like, I'm just.

Speaker 5 No, I, I mean, frankly, I think that you kind of just said what I had said in a different way. And

Speaker 5 I appreciate that you are a husband and father. And I don't know what it's like to be a husband and father.
I'm a mother and a wife.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, honestly, it's both your job. I think men want to feel just as safe in their relationships.
That's both of your guys' job.

Speaker 5 Well, and I,

Speaker 5 you know, he, I think that he would have told me by now if I ever make him feel unsafe. But like, I.
you know, I

Speaker 5 do take my job, you know, I do work full time and like I take my job very seriously, but I take being a mother and a wife also incredibly seriously.

Speaker 5 And like, what I tell you all the time is like every decision that I make, whether it's, you know, am I going to spend $20 on a salad for lunch or am I going to like, you know, have unprotected sex, I'm thinking about how those decisions impact our family because I know that I am now part of something greater than just myself.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Do you agree with that?

Speaker 3 Totally.

Speaker 2 Do you feel like you show her the same consideration?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 5 I think that you are trying to.

Speaker 3 I am trying to.

Speaker 2 I mean, listen, some things are hard to hear, but I, you know, listen, I just,

Speaker 2 in my opinion, you know, like, if I were you, I would want to, I would want that to be a non-negotiable for me.

Speaker 2 And listen, we all make mistakes and we all like, you know, we all fuck up from time to time, but I would just want to know that. the people who I care most importantly can really count on me.

Speaker 2 And if she has to wonder

Speaker 2 in any type of regularity, whether you're being honest with her

Speaker 2 about some very consequential things, it's hard to feel safe in those situations.

Speaker 3 Yeah, totally.

Speaker 5 I don't want to be the enforcer. I don't want to say no.
But when I feel like, you know, when I have to wonder, are we going to be able to pay the mortgage? Are we, you know,

Speaker 5 is my body going to be safe?

Speaker 5 When I have to ask myself these big questions, taking away from my

Speaker 5 me time or my being able to relax, that's when I start to feel like I have to enforce things. I don't like that.

Speaker 5 I don't like doing that. I don't want to.

Speaker 5 I want to be able to just know that you and I are living life together, you know, respecting and loving each other, knowing that we are both always doing what is best for the other and our family.

Speaker 3 Totally.

Speaker 5 And I think that you are now

Speaker 5 working toward that more than you have been in the past. Yeah.
And I really appreciate these changes that you've made.

Speaker 5 And I, you know, if in the future you want to smoke again, like that's definitely something that we can talk about. But

Speaker 3 I've also said that like, I don't like, I don't really want to like

Speaker 2 fight to like smoke.

Speaker 3 Like it's, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's kind of my point about marijuana is that it's like, I don't think we should make marijuana this like centerpiece of your guys's problem because to me it's not.

Speaker 2 right yeah you guys you can't even predict what like i don't know what seth's going to want to do in the future. Neither do maybe Seth might not even know what he wants to do in the future.

Speaker 2 That you, that in his gut, he's going to know that you are, you know, he knows you well enough to know what you're going to be down for and what you might not be down for at this point.

Speaker 2 And if Seth wants to do something that he feels like you might not be down for, Emma, his default has been to, at times, to still go through with it and then consider the consequences later at best.

Speaker 2 That is what I'm hearing is your guys' problem. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's been money in the past, it's been sex in the past.

Speaker 2 Maybe it'll be money and sex in the future, but like, at the end of the day, that's what makes lying so scary and makes the people feel unsafe is because you don't know what the next thing your partner is going to want to lie about.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
And that's, that's what I've had to think about for the last two years is like, because, you know, like I

Speaker 5 found out this news about the HPV one day when I was like walking into work and it just, it felt like a bomb was being dropped on my existence.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, like without being dramatic, it just feels like there have now been a couple of times where I found out extremely bad news

Speaker 5 really suddenly and I was not prepared for it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I listen,

Speaker 2 I get the sentence that you struggle with some tough, tough love.

Speaker 3 What does that mean?

Speaker 5 What do you mean?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, just like,

Speaker 2 are you sensitive?

Speaker 5 Do you think you're sensitive?

Speaker 2 yeah i mean which most most of us are but i think it's hard for you to hear a

Speaker 2 some strange guy like me calling you out for you know not showing up as a husband and a father at certain aspects of your your marriage i mean i i take a lot of issue with you calling me out for not showing up as a father like husband sure

Speaker 2 well i mean i think this go hand in hand i mean i don't you know I just,

Speaker 2 it's like, I don't know, spending $50,000,

Speaker 2 not telling anyone.

Speaker 2 There is a through line there a little bit, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Speaker 2 And I guess my point is, I'm glad it bothers you, but you got to find the thing that holds you accountable in these moments where you don't want to answer to anyone.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, and you know, I think at the end of the day, or kind of the underlying issue here, is I think I have a lot of

Speaker 3 bitterness about

Speaker 3 not having the income or means to match the aspiration or lifestyle that I think we deserve.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 3 You know, we live in Silicon Valley and we are just surrounded by wealth in our face.

Speaker 3 We come from

Speaker 3 high

Speaker 3 income families.

Speaker 3 who had the benefit of six-figure jobs with pensions and nannies

Speaker 3 and things that just will never really be afforded to us because we didn't go to Ivy League schools to become engineers.

Speaker 5 And something that I'm kind of always trying to talk to Seth about is like, yeah, I did come from a lot of wealth, but I've realized that wealth does not equate to happiness.

Speaker 5 Yes, I would like a little bit more financial freedom. My father made a lot of money in his lifetime and he's a lot of, yeah, it's a test.

Speaker 2 You would not be able to see that it makes things, it makes some things easier and it takes some stresses off your plate. That's literally it.
That's all it, that's all it really does.

Speaker 2 Um, it's like you don't have to worry about getting a parking ticket sometimes in a world where you might otherwise worry about getting a parking ticket, like honestly.

Speaker 3 Uh,

Speaker 3 and I get a parking ticket and I'm ready to like beat someone with my bare hands.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, and you know, a little extra cash goes a long way there. But to that point, Seth, $50,000 pays for a lot of parking tickets.
Um,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 5 trips, shoes,

Speaker 5 like all the things that you like to buy.

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, it's because, like, I'm like, it, like, you only live once, and I want our family to live well.

Speaker 2 And well, I mean, again, living well is just a matter of perspective, so you know, um,

Speaker 5 but like, I feel I feel like we have a four and a half-year-old daughter, and I feel like no one in the world has a better life than me when our daughter is like, Oh, I want a a family hub or let's sit and watch a movie together.

Speaker 5 Nick, all of this is to come for you and it's amazing. And it's like knowing how much she loves us and wants to spend time with us.
I know it sounds cheesy, but like that's what means the most to me.

Speaker 3 No, and,

Speaker 3 you know, a couple of weeks ago,

Speaker 3 I had a really good session with this therapist.

Speaker 3 where he and I were kind of discussing some of this and he was like, you know, when you're lying there having your last breath, are you really going to think about the house or the cars that you owned?

Speaker 3 Or are you going to like look at like your family standing around you in your room and thinking about the moments that you had with your kids? It was like, think about that for a moment.

Speaker 3 And it's like that just like, I don't know why it took so long for that to like register with me. And I had

Speaker 3 that exact conversation with my college roommate's father, who

Speaker 3 retired and living well.

Speaker 3 And I kind of had that same exact conversation with him. And he's like, Yeah, I am so enjoying every moment of being a grandfather.
And just that is what's worth living for.

Speaker 3 And that's what's worth, you know.

Speaker 5 All these people who you think make so much more money or quote unquote, like have more than us. Like, no one ever really knows what other people are dealing with.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 And, and, and like, I don't, I don't necessarily want all of that money or responsibility. I just want, I want to have a happy life at home with you.

Speaker 5 And yeah, I want to travel and buy a nice bag once every couple of years, but like, you know, we, I don't need to constantly be jetting off somewhere to be happy with you.

Speaker 5 I just want to be like at the park with you and our kid for as cheesy as it sounds.

Speaker 3 Yes. And I, um, and that's,

Speaker 3 I wish that I could genuinely feel that more often. And I feel like I need to

Speaker 3 try more than I naturally should if I'm being a perfect woman.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because it seems like something that you struggle with.

Speaker 5 And that's what over these last few years, like what I'm trying to get you to come back to is like, you know, no matter how much fun you have with someone in ENM or what shoes you buy or where we travel to or how much you smoke, like personally, I don't think that any of those things will bring you the gratification of just knowing that you have a wife and daughter who love you.

Speaker 5 I sound, feel so freaking cheesy for everything that I'm saying, but I don't care because it's how I really.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that's fine.

Speaker 2 It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 But to that point, I'm again, like, I'm glad you took exception to me calling you out, whether you thought it was fair or not, but to, you know, lean on those emotions in the sense that, like, you know, listen, like a lot of what you're describing, Seth, is this like ego-driven insecurities or thoughts.

Speaker 2 The compare, you know, what they say, the comparison is the thief of joy. You're surrounded by people

Speaker 2 who have all this wealth. And so like, to some degree, like you kind of just have to get over yourself and your ego and like check yourself.

Speaker 2 Like all, everything you're, you're, you're feeling is a, I mean, we all feel it to some degree.

Speaker 2 I mean, I, I, I definitely haven't been any happier in my life since my financial situation has improved.

Speaker 2 I mean, I've always, I'm, I'm in, I'm living my happiest moment in my life right now for a lot of things, but like the money's only caused more stress.

Speaker 2 You know, there's a stress of like, you know, keep keeping it going, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 So, like, all those things that you're describing, kind of to your wife's point, like, really doesn't, honestly, that's never going to change.

Speaker 2 The part of you that is having a hard time controlling your ego to the point where it makes you act out destructively in ways that hurt your wife's feelings

Speaker 2 will be inside you if you tomorrow you woke up and your financial earning increased tenfold, you would still be able to compare yourself to people and feel less than because again, these are, these are ego-driven thoughts.

Speaker 2 And to your wife's point, like showing up as a husband and as a father, in most cases, costs you nothing other than you prioritizing them over yourself.

Speaker 2 You know, it's literally the whole, the whole joy of being a husband and as a father is you have the opportunity to wake up every day and get something out of thinking of other people before thinking of yourself.

Speaker 2 And in a way, that's like an incredible gift because, again, it costs you nothing other than selflessness. And it's not even that selfless because you are getting something out of it.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, in most men, their love language is some kind of act of service, showing up and like lean into those emotions, but like it should bother you when you don't show up.

Speaker 2 And, you know, like every parent and every spouse always don't question me as a father or as a husband.

Speaker 2 But, like, you know, sometimes we, you know, don't show up as fathers and husbands and wives and moms. And sometimes, and I'm glad that really triggers you because at least you give a shit.

Speaker 2 So some parents don't care.

Speaker 3 No, yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of shitty fathers.
And I, I take, uh,

Speaker 3 I, I take a lot of pride in thinking that I do show up

Speaker 3 and that I care a lot about my wife and my daughter and lean hard into some pretty progressive values.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but also, you know, again,

Speaker 2 you also have to be willing to call yourself out when you don't show up.

Speaker 2 Totally, totally.

Speaker 3 I appreciate you holding that mirror to me.

Speaker 5 And not always fight me back when I'm calling you up because I...

Speaker 5 I would like to think that everything that I say to you is said with love and with just want, like with my eye on this, this idea of just us having a good life together.

Speaker 5 Like, it doesn't have to be fancy to be good and happy.

Speaker 2 And some of your

Speaker 2 what I'm hearing, some of your these things that we're talking about, Seth, is

Speaker 2 for lack of a better word, a bit petulant in nature. You're just kind of like, I, you know, sometimes I just want to do what I want to do when I want to do it.

Speaker 2 And that is, there's a very like childlike element to that. And that is very much the opposite of dad and husband energy.
You know, like that is, that is a sacrifice that

Speaker 2 adults, husbands, wives, you know, make, you know, and again, it's not a completely selfless act because it's actually one of the most fulfilling feelings that any of us can feel to feel like, you know, to be called a good husband, to be called a good father, because a lot of people aren't.

Speaker 2 But like, we don't, it's, you know, so you have to be willing to recognize that in those moments where you want to

Speaker 2 have your cake and eat it too, you have to be willing to like check yourself and you have to be willing to like ask your communicate with your wife about things that you know that she might not be down for and have to be willing to make that sacrifice because like more than anything, like being a good parent is leading by example.

Speaker 2 Right now, your child's only four and a half years. You know, she's not that, you know, she's probably getting more and more observant.

Speaker 2 But at some point, you know, she's going to be a 10, 11, 12 year old and a 15 year old girl.

Speaker 2 And she'll be very in tuned to your guys' relationship and the secrets that are kept or not kept and the in the fights that you guys have and things like that. And she will be very aware.

Speaker 2 It will be very difficult to hide your wife finding out that

Speaker 2 you lied to her about spending $30,000 on something she knew nothing about.

Speaker 2 And like, you know, those are the things that if I were you, I would be mindful for and want to, if for no other reason to check yourself is because that's not the energy that you would want your daughter to observe.

Speaker 5 Yeah, she's definitely more observant than ever, which is making us reevaluate kind of how we do a lot of things.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I think that that's a good point because she notices when we're gone, she notices when we're arguing, like she notices when we're yelling. And I don't like that.
No.

Speaker 2 And again, I'm no expert in non-monogamy, but like, I feel like maybe for the time being, until like, I feel like that's something a couple should like, if if you're into that sort of thing, be something you guys do with each other when everything else is in unison, when the, when everyone else is feeling connected.

Speaker 2 But if you don't have radical trust in a relationship, I just don't know how you can get the most out of that type of relationship.

Speaker 2 And I do feel like if it's practiced without a lot of trust and security, I feel like you, it can cause more damage than good.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 5 Well, thank you so much, Nick, for your time.

Speaker 5 Long time, long time listener. Um,

Speaker 2 listen, you guys seem like you have a good thing going despite all your flaws in the relationship, and every, you know, but more than anything, you just need to want to show up.

Speaker 3 Appreciate that.

Speaker 5 We do really love each other. Well, thank you, thank you for you and your team, and all of your time.

Speaker 5 And, you know, hopefully, you know, I think we'll continue to process all of this and talk about it. And do you want to say thank you?

Speaker 3 Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 Well, thanks for your guys' time. Okay, take care.
Bye-bye. Enjoy your day.
All right. Bye-bye.

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