Ep 538 - LSD Supermax (feat. Joel Blaeser)

Speaker 1 Wow, wow, Wes.

Speaker 1 And we're live. Joel Blazer, what the fuck is going on? Thank you.
Thank you for coming. Doesn't it feel good? Yes.
Feels good, dude, every now and again, just to jump in hot, get the juices flowing.

Speaker 1 So, Joel Blazer,

Speaker 1 so we met in Milwaukee. I saw you on Soft White Underbelly, and I was taken by it.
I was like, dude, this is crazy. I think, honestly, I think you're one of their best guests.

Speaker 1 You know, they've done some.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 They've interviewed a lot of people, but, you know, I just kind of struck me, bro. I saw you and I said, damn, this is the man.
And we talked. And then eventually we met in Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 I didn't, it was pure accident. I, because you, I had this fucked up post on Instagram.
My phone's off. It's like, you're talking right to me.
You didn't even see me.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, man, I got to, and I grabbed my phone. And I'm like, okay, no, they're going to kick me out.
You can't turn the phone on because I wanted to erase it.

Speaker 2 It was just some fucking negative bullshit.

Speaker 2 Because at the show, you can't turn your phone on.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 So then I go out and then you, and I wouldn't have even have turned my phone on had I not had that thought, which is that you inspired me from the thing.

Speaker 2 And then you're like, dude, I saw you come back to the green room.

Speaker 1 I'm like, right up. I couldn't have missed you.
I'm obviously feeling your grip right now. Couldn't have missed you.

Speaker 2 That was fucking rad.

Speaker 1 It was fucked up.

Speaker 1 My friend, I think Nate, you met Nate. Yes.
Nate comes back. No, I think it was AJ.
AJ comes back and

Speaker 1 he's like, yeah, there's a guy like in all white in the front row. And I was like, I know who that is.
That's Tolbu. I was like, dude, hell yeah.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, we talked a little bit. And

Speaker 1 then we met, dude. Dude, you're the fucking man.
We met in Milwaukee. You gave the signed copies to Nate and AJ of your book.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I gave him a little note.

Speaker 1 Letters from Marion. The notes were, I thought, beautiful, man.

Speaker 1 I gave them their books and we were reading them. I'm like, they're just beautiful notes.
You're the man, dude. You're an absolute beast.
But we went to the steakhouse. Five o'clock steakhouse.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Might have been the best steak I've ever had in my life, dude. I'm not lying.
It was good. It was so good.
And then the thing that really killed me was I've never seen this happen before.

Speaker 1 When you showed up, you had had an incident with gasoline.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God, dude. That was, dude.

Speaker 1 You smelled like gasoline. You showed up.
We were all sitting there eating. I'm like,

Speaker 1 I thought you were working with power tools all day. I'm like, maybe he was like chainsawing all day or something.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I don't want to be rude. Like, what the fuck? My mother,

Speaker 2 the motherfucker clicked. I'm sitting in the car.
The thing's full. It clicked.
I pull it out. Dude, and it just was squirting and it just squirted on the car and splashed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you got drenched with gasoline.

Speaker 2 Like, that is wicked.

Speaker 1 Bro, I swear to God, I've never, it was such a pungent smell.

Speaker 2 I'm like, what am I going to do?

Speaker 1 You had to just show up. It was your beast move.

Speaker 2 You could have lit me on fire if you were smoking cigarettes.

Speaker 1 I seriously was concerned. I was worried someone's going to order like off lambay or something, and you would have gone up because it was a thick gasoline smell.

Speaker 1 Although, that's kind of the most manly like cologne.

Speaker 2 Maybe we could start it.

Speaker 1 Letters for marrying gasoline

Speaker 1 but yeah so okay so you're and this is what kind of uh got my interest i watched you on software underbelly and you had the story basically about going to a supermax prison for selling you know lsd and the case was crazy like you know we talked about it it was just you sent you know lsd in the mail western union some guy got caught he never got even caught with it right

Speaker 2 No, his friend got caught. And then his friend just told on him.
They showed up at his front door and he just like told him this crazy story. Like, so they didn't, he wasn't indicted.

Speaker 2 He would just, they didn't.

Speaker 1 He just completely

Speaker 2 right on his front step.

Speaker 1 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 And then he gave you up and then you got on some bullshit trial where it was like, you'd never got caught with drugs, but there was enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that you had used a fake name to Western Union money and LSD around.

Speaker 1 And they sentenced you to, you said they were.

Speaker 2 151 months, 12 years, seven months, which I jumped for joy. That was short.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 When I was facing 40 and I get 151, I looked at my mom and I just went like this.

Speaker 1 Really? You turned around? Yes.

Speaker 2 Cause I'm like, it's 151. Like, I'm at least, you know, 40 when you're 23, you're going to.
Your whole life.

Speaker 1 You're done.

Speaker 2 You're like, how do you look down that hallway?

Speaker 2 151. It's like, okay, I can file some appeals.
Maybe I'll get lucky. And I did.

Speaker 1 But. And that was 1992.
So that's, this is like.

Speaker 1 It's crazy to think about the drug laws back. It was even like weed back then.
Like, you could go to jail for like four or five years for selling weed if you had enough.

Speaker 2 When we drove through Texas or

Speaker 2 Vegas, Nevada, like the older deadheads, like the shit was hid. You couldn't do anything.
Ponytails back. Like you just had to get through the state, especially Texas.

Speaker 2 They said, if we get pulled over and they find weed, we are all going to prison. Yeah, it's crazy.
And now look. Yeah, well, and so we paved the way.
I should put a collection bucket out.

Speaker 1 You should.

Speaker 2 The young people have no fucking clue, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Even the early 2000s, it was like, you could go to jail for like little bullshit, like weed and stuff.
I guess they softened, obviously softened the streets.

Speaker 2 There's still some. There's 25 states where it's illegal, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Texas, it's still illegal. Like, if you, Austin, you're fine.
If you have weed in Austin, they don't care. If you leave Austin, you can still, they'll like throw you in the

Speaker 2 front of the hotel, everybody.

Speaker 1 They don't care in Austin. But if you, is that, isn't that right, Josh? I think if you leave Austin and you get caught with weed, like, I knew someone who wasn't.

Speaker 2 So it's decriminalized in Austin proper?

Speaker 1 Yeah, pretty much. I mean, at least they don't prosecute it at all.

Speaker 2 It's not

Speaker 2 the lib side.

Speaker 1 It's a lib. This is a lib haven, yeah.
They actually have like decent food here, but you got to deal with all that stuff.

Speaker 1 But yeah, man, you can, in Austin, I think I knew someone who got pulled over with a vape cartridge and got like held overnight.

Speaker 2 In Austin?

Speaker 1 No, outside of Austin.

Speaker 1 So Austin's a safe haven.

Speaker 2 So they can't.

Speaker 2 Do they sell it here?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like now we have that weird stuff where it's like the hemp bill.

Speaker 2 It's one little thing. The hemp bill.

Speaker 1 No, the hemp bill. Oh, yeah.
A lot of farm bearer. Exactly.

Speaker 2 Because if you get it from hemp, you can, it's like.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Or the big thing is THCA.
THCA is what's illegal. THCA.
Now you have to, you know, like heat up weed and make brownies.

Speaker 2 Carbolic.

Speaker 1 Yeah, decarboxylate or whatever.

Speaker 1 So now if you if you have that extra carbon molecule that heat removes from literally a valider, it's technically legal because you can be like, well, this is hemp.

Speaker 1 Weeds legal now, by the way.

Speaker 2 But is it medically legal here?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 No, Texas is like,

Speaker 1 I think it's, yeah, I don't think they even have a medical legal.

Speaker 2 I think all drugs should be legal and the world world would be way different. That's really one of the driving forces behind the book, just to be part of that wave.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, dude, it's like it hasn't worked.

Speaker 2 I mean, look at the prisons.

Speaker 1 Well, what happened with Portugal? Didn't Portugal, yeah, I mean, obviously locking people up for years.

Speaker 2 They did it. It was much smaller.
The Cato Institute did a big study. I wrote a couple op-eds for that.

Speaker 2 I don't remember all the statistics, but they would track it all the way to like when kids first tried drugs.

Speaker 2 Like it just had a positive impact on all the metrics of drug use, amount of drug use, when they stop. And then when you go in to do it, they say,

Speaker 2 if you get addicted or you want help, here it is.

Speaker 2 But there's a lot of moms whose young daughters and sons have OD'd and died that if it was legal, if they were at one of those places, they wouldn't have died.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you take the Mexican cartel would go out of business like that. Think of that.

Speaker 1 That's the big one. Yeah.
Well, that's the, but here's the thing.

Speaker 1 I read the book Chasing the Scream by Yeah,

Speaker 1 great book. Yes.
They talk about that. How like in London they would give people heroin.

Speaker 1 And then if you had someone, if they had to go to a center and the heroin was clean, like there were way more, way less deaths. But now the critique in America is like the

Speaker 2 well, it's a cesspool. America did it wrong.
Like Oregon and Seattle are just like a whole area of exactly.

Speaker 1 It does give the harm reduction stuff a bad name because it's like if you just let people lay on the street and you're like, oh, here's fucking, here's needles.

Speaker 1 And then my friend Jared Clickstein was actually living in Skid Row for a while. And he said the problem was you like throw these guys in like an apartment.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, here, we're going to give you housing. And then they OD and die and nobody finds them because they're by themselves rather if they're outside.
But if people can at least discover them.

Speaker 2 If both metrics were the same, legal and illegal,

Speaker 2 there's still the metric of the criminal elements out of it. If we get the money that we can bring back in.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's true. And it's also, it loses a lot of the allure.

Speaker 1 It's like, you know, if you're telling me if I got to go to like a professional office building to like go do heroin, I'm going to be like, you're going to start to question it.

Speaker 2 You're going to think, what am I doing? Where's my life? What am I doing?

Speaker 1 Yeah, what is it? What the fuck am I doing? It's not the thrill of like, you know, you're getting it. It takes the rock and roll element out of it, which I think could work.

Speaker 1 And it always is a personal choice. It is like, you know, it comes down to personal choice.

Speaker 2 What I do with my head is my business. Can a government really tell me?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, apparently they told you. They sent you to jail for fucking

Speaker 1 15 years.

Speaker 1 So, dude, so you have a book. It's called Letters from Marion.
I read it. I love the book, dude.
I thought it was great.

Speaker 1 Book was fantastic.

Speaker 2 It kind of gave me that shout-out about the jackrag on another podcast. Yes, I did.

Speaker 1 I did. I did.
Actually,

Speaker 2 I parted it too.

Speaker 1 Dude, that's, I'm glad. It's got to cross a weird threshold, though, for other prisoners to be like, yo, here's how you jerk off.
Because I know in jail, it's like.

Speaker 2 Nikki. At the third place, yeah, Nikki told me.
He started to tell me and I thought he was fucking with me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, but he's not gay. Sparky already got me stoned with all this this weed.
And then I'm like, all right, I'm going to try it. And I did.
And it was wicked.

Speaker 1 And what was the technique again? You rolled the socks inside out.

Speaker 2 So it's smooth. And then you're not actually like going up and down on the shaft.
And it's hard when you get a really big hard iron. But you grab the shaft.
And then that heat

Speaker 2 created. And then right at climax, boom, right on top and underneath.

Speaker 1 Put some pressure on it.

Speaker 2 It has an effect, man.

Speaker 1 That's crazy.

Speaker 2 I mean, like, most guys. Don't guys know that?

Speaker 1 Oh, man. I don't know.
I've never tried this sock in the fucking pressure plant. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you turn it inside out and then you fold it over so it's a little tight, right? And you got to get a big sock. But no, it works.
And then it's all contained. No, no spill, no trust, no must.

Speaker 2 You don't have to buy our cab ride home in the morning. True.

Speaker 1 Got to wash the sock. Yeah.
You got to wash the sock.

Speaker 2 Throw that fucker out.

Speaker 1 Throw it out.

Speaker 2 After like six or eight uses.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 Oh, she's still washed.

Speaker 2 Or I'll rinse rinse it, but not

Speaker 1 true. You need to keep it pure.
Yeah, you need to keep it pure. I get that, True.
You don't want all those chemicals on you. The funny thing.
So you were telling me, this made me laugh a lot.

Speaker 1 So you get, you go to trial. You took your case to trial.
You fight it yourself, which, you know, that is honorable. You go take your case to trial.
And then you were sentenced, like you said.

Speaker 1 What was the first thing you did upon sentencing? You go back to the cell. What was your play?

Speaker 2 So it was a.

Speaker 1 You're 23 years old.

Speaker 2 Sober experience. Sobering experience.
I went to that cell and I just started to think, what do I want to do? What am I going to do when I get out?

Speaker 2 Surfing, sushi. And then I'm like, somehow I got aroused.
Right on. You know, and the marshals were out of the office there.
There's bars. And I just fucking hit it.
I made myself come hard, dude.

Speaker 2 And then I'm like, get used to it, motherfucker, because that's all you got. And I think that's actually pretty

Speaker 2 good, like to realization and just accepting

Speaker 2 is what it it is. Dude, I mean, and who knows, maybe if I spent 151 months in there, I mean, I might have been getting my dick sucked.
I don't fucking know.

Speaker 2 I don't think so, but after a certain amount of time, like, say if you're there for 30 fucking years, man. I hear you.
I hear you. You got to be touched.
Like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 Something's got to happen. Yeah.
Or a guard.

Speaker 2 You get lucky with a female prison guard. That'd be huge.

Speaker 1 That would be very lucky.

Speaker 2 So I don't know. I've never had to deal with that.

Speaker 1 Did you never had it? That was your primary concern. You said going in.
You didn't want to have to

Speaker 2 get raped, get my asshole filled with cum. Can I say that?

Speaker 1 You can say that, yeah. It's your journey.

Speaker 2 No, man.

Speaker 1 Dude, that's a real fucking fear. I'd be terrified, man, because you were down where in like Kentucky?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 That trial was in Covington, Kentucky, 6th District. The first prison was like really low and normal.

Speaker 2 you know as it progressed and the thing is the face of the medium security prisons at that time changed so normal medium security in the the 80s, you might have bank robbers, a couple drug dealers.

Speaker 2 The average sentence was maybe eight, six, eight, 10 years. But now, there was every other fucking guy at 30, 35 years, and they're young.
So, it was like that was like a penitentiary and a medium.

Speaker 2 Cause, like, you know, if a dude's got 35 or 40 years and he's 25 and he's disrespected, like, what the fuck does he have to lose?

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 It's not like you have eight or 10 and you got an out date and you're close, right? So, like, the tensions were different.

Speaker 1 And also, I did like that. I have to say, like, so you're there, you know, that just being like, look, I've never tried sushi.
I'm going to get that when I get out.

Speaker 1 I'm going to surf around the world when I get out. And then just like, you know, and it is funny to like just jerk off.

Speaker 1 But it is something, there's something serious about that level of acceptance to be like,

Speaker 1 this is my situation.

Speaker 1 Because I feel like people in and out of jail struggle with that, of like just accepting your lot in life and just kind of like getting, getting with the program rather than just constantly spinning yourself out.

Speaker 2 Acceptance.

Speaker 1 It's a big thing.

Speaker 2 It was luck. I don't know how I like, I look back.
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 Why? You were wise. You were definitely at 20 for 22 to be like, all right, this is what it is is pretty crazy.
I don't, I wouldn't have been able to take it. I would have been like, this is bullshit.

Speaker 1 There's no way. I would have been in total denial.
I think.

Speaker 2 When they arrested me, I thought to myself as they're driving me in the car, like I had the thought. I'm like, I know a motherfucker who's got a kilo of Coke.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking in my head. And

Speaker 2 I'm like, no.

Speaker 2 And they brought me to the courthouse in this room with uh christopher bick and a couple other agents and they said you're gonna spend the rest of your you're you're gonna spend all of your 20s and probably most of your 30s in prison this is the best part of your life and they said just we you don't even we won't even process you just tell us you'll cooperate and help us and you and it can stop right now and i said take me to my cell fuck you which was the hardest fucking thing

Speaker 2 because i knew it was not i'm not going to jail then yeah they threw the 18 count indictment on my lap when they arrested me which I thought holy fuck that means they convened a grand jury they've been fucking following me trying to catch me with shit which they were

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 yeah man that was uh

Speaker 2 that was a wicked a wicked situation then I got out on bail for like four months and then when out on bail I got in trouble so they arrested me I don't know if I put this in the book and then I had to go back to Kentucky through the the federal prison system.

Speaker 2 And then once I got to Kentucky, there was a mix-up with getting the car. And then I got out again.

Speaker 2 I went through six or seven prisons because the way the Marshal Services transfers you through. And then I went to this one in Oklahoma.
Now they built a different one.

Speaker 2 But you actually went into a prison with like six tiers. And so I'm only have been

Speaker 2 arrested and formally charged, but I have not been convicted or sentenced. So I saw, in that point, I saw what prison was.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 really what prison was.

Speaker 1 You got to get your shuffle. So I remember that in the book.
You had to get yourself down to Kentucky to get like arraigned or whatever.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because they arrested me in Milwaukee, but the indictment is out of Kentucky. So they arraigned me here.
They gave me pretrial probation. They said, you got to show up in three weeks.

Speaker 1 And you couldn't get to Kentucky. Right.
Right.

Speaker 2 And like two days before I called the marshals, they said, you got to get there. You got to get there.
We're going to come arrest you. And then there was an issue with my getting a rental car.

Speaker 2 And then my brother wasn't going to let me use his car and i i mean i up yeah so they were pissed so they had to literally transport you from milwaukee down to but they don't go straight you just get in the system and you just go you go around and then it took me like 31 days couple county jails but the it was the one in um

Speaker 2 oklahoma oklahoma city

Speaker 2 I can't remember the name of the federal prison, but like you would go to the Chow Hall and you'd mix with the prisoners, like the wick, you know, and it's just like, I remember gene gotti was there i believe at the time but it was like holy man then i get to kentucky they give me he gives me the bail he's like you can't up we're gonna piss you all that he's like but i'll see you i don't know the trial was in four or five months after that um

Speaker 1 but that that

Speaker 2 no i went back to milwaukee okay but if that that could have made anybody rat yeah Because you see, like, this is going to be home.

Speaker 1 Oh, you weren't even, I see what you're saying. You weren't even like a fully sentenced yet.
And the thing that struck, I didn't know.

Speaker 2 No, I didn't even have the trial.

Speaker 1 Exactly. So you got like a taste and you could have totally been like, bro, fuck this.
I'm out.

Speaker 1 I did like the thing in the book where you talked about how they gave some people what was called diesel therapy and they keep prisoners traveling just in perpetuity.

Speaker 1 The diesel therapy. Dude, that's fucking terrible.

Speaker 2 Because you don't, you maybe shower every two days. You're constantly in chains, belly chains and the leg irons.

Speaker 2 And then like if you file complaints, and I'm sure they do it to people that they want to break, like maybe Secret Service people they think are selling secrets or whatever, like some sort of thing.

Speaker 2 And then it's also a threat. Like, you know, like if you

Speaker 2 go on diesel therapy, you're basically on a bus like seven days a week and stopping off only every couple days and like in the big tanks with people, you're eating baloney sandwiches.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, and you don't know anyone, so you're just getting shuffled or ear straight.

Speaker 2 No phone calls, no mail. Sucks, dude.

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Speaker 1 You always hear about the hole. That's the big one.
You get sent to the hole.

Speaker 2 The hole's the jail within the jail. Like it's crazy, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, the hole was pretty wicked. The thing is, like, on the commissary slips, they sold at every single federal prison, they sold raw garlic.

Speaker 2 And when you went to the hole, there were certain things on the commissary they wouldn't let you buy, but you could buy, always buy raw garlic.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 2 Cloves. And like for the whole entire time, every single day, I'd eat two to four cloves every day.

Speaker 2 I just wanted to do it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, did it probably kept like infections at bay? And, you know, except getting sick in jail would fucking, you never, no one ever thinks thinks about getting sick in jail.

Speaker 2 It's it's the thing, the light sicknesses are you're gonna kind of get poo-pooed, but like if something's real serious, they take because it's the feds, they will take you right out to the hospital.

Speaker 2 That's cool, but um,

Speaker 1 the uh

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 1 well, my friend was in uh county jail, and that's the thing people don't know too. Apparently, county is the worst, exactly.

Speaker 2 That's what I've heard casspool wickedness.

Speaker 1 It sucks. My friend was there, and he was he was an older guy, and uh, he was in the county jail.
Um, dirty, there's no regulation he was there during covid and he said

Speaker 1 the guards were so like whacked out about interacting with the prisoners that you know he was like if you they didn't come check on you at all and the heaters were fucked up so he was like it was freezing cold it always is and the air is recirculating so you get dandra yeah he was like it's freezing cold and he was like i'm an older guy yeah you know health issues He's like, if I had a health complication, I would have died.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 there was a bell or a button they could ring to get people to come. And he's like, they would all ring it.
Nobody

Speaker 1 for eight hours a night, that people just wouldn't show up.

Speaker 1 So they were like, we don't want the guards. We're like, we don't want to be around the fucking prison.

Speaker 2 Right. Because even if you're federal holdover in a county jail, you don't get the federal,

Speaker 2 like if you were in a federal prison. Yeah.
There's just like you're in the county. That's it.

Speaker 1 You would think the county would be the nicer one because it's lesser. Well, at least you can be waiting to trial.

Speaker 1 But it's like, usually, if you get like a DUI, you think the conditions would be nicer to go serve a DUI sentence.

Speaker 2 And like, it's got to be the worst place.

Speaker 1 It's a pyramid scheme.

Speaker 2 It's a pyramid scheme.

Speaker 1 No, I'm saying, like, run it. If you you did like a high-level crime you get better jail conditions basically you get you get a federal prison no well

Speaker 1 once you get there yeah it's true but it was that always that just shocked me because my friend went and i was always kind of like oh i you would think like federal prison's like worse than the county but it's like he was like no it's actually way better he's like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah you know what i'm saying yes but either way so you got so you got uh So once you were there, and in the book, you move around a lot.

Speaker 1 And also, there wasn't it come together at the end, though.

Speaker 2 I like it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I like it.

Speaker 1 You did a good, you did a good job of like chronological leaps because it's like, you know, you're talking about your one-time period, like, you know, I'm waiting trial, and then like you're jumping to like being released and the stuff you were doing after that.

Speaker 1 And then back. And I thought it was, yeah, that's you pulled it off.
The chronological jumps pulled off. The letters were.

Speaker 1 So what was your thought? Because within the book,

Speaker 1 too many.

Speaker 1 Well, here's the thing. I think they were fine, but they really, you gave a pretty,

Speaker 1 a pretty serious glimpse into like the psyche of an incarcerated, you know, young Some of it was a little too deep. I loved it.
I thought it was great.

Speaker 1 But like, the best is when you sent a letter to your brother being like, I'm going to fucking destroy you when I get out of here. I'm so jacked.
I was,

Speaker 1 that made me literally laugh out loud in my bed. I was reading that.
I'm like, what a funny fucking thing just to be in jail. Be like, I'm going to fucking beat your ass when I get out of here.

Speaker 1 I'll be so strong. Which I'm sure you're fucking around with your brother, but it was like, yeah,

Speaker 1 the letters did, like, the story, you know, was flowing. The letters, like, they really gave it some kind of like gravity, some weight to it, man.
It was like, some of those letters were like

Speaker 1 kind of dark in a good way.

Speaker 1 I thought it was cool because it was, you didn't, here's my thing, you didn't have to put those in there, and you did, and you really, you really showed uh, you know, kind of an unfiltered, like, view of how you were, and it was cool.

Speaker 2 It was kind of cool. Yeah, I wanted to do the envelopes to prove I was there, and then the Hillary wanted me to type the letter out, but then I'm like,

Speaker 2 that means it could be edited. If this letter, this is it.
Like, you can't change that.

Speaker 1 So, with with the letters there was i i i couldn't i didn't know what you were talking about you were asking um your mom for photos what what was the photo oh she's for playboy

Speaker 2 my parents met at playboy and she posted that i heard yeah that i knew so what did you want the photo for just to have i don't know no so she there's

Speaker 2 We would see the photos like when we were little, and so they weren't all nudged photos.

Speaker 1 Yeah, obviously.

Speaker 2 They're not all nude, but she has a couple. And then on the back, it says Playboy Studios.
But I think I had a bet or something with someone or

Speaker 2 some reason alterier. I can't remember what it was.

Speaker 2 But I got the picture and I showed. I said, look, Playboy Studio.
Yeah, that was the... I think it was a bet.

Speaker 1 That was a letter I saw in there. There's no context on the letter.
So I kind of like looked it up and I was like, okay, that's what I thought it was. You wanted the Playboy photos for a bet.

Speaker 1 You never said that in the book. So when you're reading it, you're going, this is a freaky ass bull, dude.

Speaker 1 We're in prison. I'm going to be jacking off to my mother.
I would never say that. I would never say that.

Speaker 2 No, but you're right. That's a reasonable thought.
How fucked up does this dude get?

Speaker 2 He's jacking off to his mother. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 I'd never say so.

Speaker 1 God damn it. It just made me laugh because I was reading the book and I'm like, what the fuck is he talking about? These photos.
And that makes sense. You had a bet with somebody.

Speaker 1 They didn't believe you.

Speaker 2 No. Gary.
I'm pretty sure it was Gary. He didn't believe me.
It might not have been a bet. It might have just been, look, I want like a, hey, my parents met at Playboy.
Check this out.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was an interesting story, too. That was a, so how did that go down?

Speaker 2 I think it happened on Lake Parkway at the mansion, Eu Hefner's mansion. My dad collected money.

Speaker 2 He worked in the credit department. My mom worked in some area where like you're just kind of the traditional whatever.
And then they met at the party. And then that they married.

Speaker 2 I think they married in 63, November 22nd, the date John Kennedy was shot. And I think they met in 61, but they both worked at Playboy.

Speaker 2 And then Pompeo Posar, who was the big staff photographer, just hounded the shit out of my mother until she relented to pose. So, but the rest of the story, which I've never told anyone,

Speaker 2 probably never happened in the history of Playboy. So she posed.
They picked her for centerfold.

Speaker 2 Everything was set, typeset and everything, and she fucking freaked out.

Speaker 1 And she was like, take it it out. I don't want to do it.

Speaker 2 She's like, no. But she still stayed working there for another year and a half.
But they said, no one's ever done this. Like, said, no.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so she's like, I can't do it. She was sort of traditional, Italian,

Speaker 2 Catholic. Especially back then.
It's 60.

Speaker 1 Especially back then. Like, people now wouldn't care.
People have like OnlyFans and shit. But like.
Yeah, back then, that was a big deal.

Speaker 2 She was old-fashioned like that. Pull the chair out.
Like, just

Speaker 1 what was the thinking, though? Why, I guess, you know, I guess if you're in the environment, you get kind of, they do that at strip clubs a lot, too.

Speaker 1 We'll take the bartenders and they'll be like, Yeah, yeah, you should get up there. Just a, it's just when you're in that environment, they're probably just kind of pushing you.

Speaker 2 Well, she was super fine, really, she was extremely fine. Yeah, no, unbelievable.
Like, okay, I had a party at the Lake Estate.

Speaker 2 The Super Bowl was February 4th, and my friend was there, and my mom came into the kitchen.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so I'm, I don't know, 40. My mom's 65, probably.

Speaker 2 Now, she's my mom. So, like, I, you know, but petite and perfect.

Speaker 1 You're cursed with a hot mom.

Speaker 2 So she leaves the kitchen, and Bob's there. It's probably five years my elder.
He's like, dude, your sister is so fine. Can I get her? Can I call her? And I said, it's my mom.

Speaker 1 And he's just like, oh, wait, he walked off.

Speaker 2 You know, like, that's who she was. But she wasn't like,

Speaker 2 what's the word? Like, she didn't act like she was,

Speaker 2 but she was. Really?

Speaker 1 Yeah. What was it like growing up with like a hot mom, basically?

Speaker 2 How could I know the difference?

Speaker 1 What do you mean? Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I always wonder what that was.

Speaker 2 Looking back, like the way people reacted to her and would talk to her, like when we would travel, like they were very

Speaker 2 attracted to her.

Speaker 2 I don't know. It probably helped me.
I mean, if I'm, am I ugly?

Speaker 1 No, yeah, no, no. You're looking good, dude.

Speaker 2 I think she might have been able to do a lot better than my dad, though, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, what was

Speaker 1 in the book, you include some stuff like you guys had a Rocky relationship, and then he just died. Yes.
How was that? Because you go into the, it's kind of jarring because I read it.

Speaker 1 It's like, you guys have this

Speaker 1 physical

Speaker 1 altercation, and then he dies that day.

Speaker 2 So the week before he died, maybe two weeks, we were at the dining room table. And I'm like, dude, I think something's wrong with you.
I think you're going going to die. I've been having these dreams.

Speaker 2 It happened with my grandmother.

Speaker 2 He said, I'm fine. I had the cholesterol check.
Everything's good. Then the day before, so what was it, October 15th, 1989?

Speaker 2 1988.

Speaker 2 Because the first time I took LSD was a year later on that date, unbeknownst to me. And so we got in a fight over something.
The cakes went flying.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was like a birthday.

Speaker 2 Someone's cakes, Was it my mother's? Someone had a birthday coming, and uh,

Speaker 2 and then that, so we had the fight, and I ran out of the house. And I was kind of a fuck-up.

Speaker 2 I got this new job, and then at the job, I started to panic and freak out. They trained me, and I said, I got to go home, something's wrong.
And then he died right in my arms.

Speaker 1 Damn, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 Which is fucked up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's and you were you know, early 20s.

Speaker 1 It's got to be a pretty heavy experience.

Speaker 2 Uh, 20.

Speaker 1 Or yeah, 20 or 10.

Speaker 2 19. Okay.

Speaker 2 No, maybe it was 21 69 89 88 7 19. okay

Speaker 2 damn that's pretty wild yeah that was just like a quick thing mentioned in the book but i was like that was that's kind of but then what happened in marion like so like you know like uh in his in the world like in nature there's no wasted energy and if you live to be 80 you've had six years of dreams Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

Speaker 2 Right. And so like once I got to Marion, from this very first day to the day I left, every single night I'd dream and we'd meet and we'd talk and we'd get it out.

Speaker 2 That's cool. Every fucking day.
So like I made peace with it somehow. Like, but yeah, there was a rocky relationship.
I mean, my dad suffered from PTSD.

Speaker 2 He fought in a war.

Speaker 2 And like, I mean, I don't know if I was.

Speaker 2 I don't like, because you mentioned it when you did your thing about hitting a kid.

Speaker 2 Is that really the way? So

Speaker 2 five or six-year-old boy, like that's uh

Speaker 2 it might it didn't happen all the time, but it happened enough to where it's like it's significant, right? But it doesn't have to define who I am today, for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I don't know.

Speaker 2 Does that answer your question?

Speaker 1 No, yeah, that does. That was a it was like a heavier moment, and the uh, and this was, I thought this was kind of interesting too in the book.

Speaker 1 The uh, I mean, this was kind of like the crux of the tale:

Speaker 1 you're in jail, you know, and you're kind of having a good time. You're, you know, sound a little black to our heroine.

Speaker 2 I would finance my weed.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, that's just the hypocrisy of it, right?

Speaker 1 Like, we're going to keep this shit illegal. I know.
What the fuck? It is crazy, but for me, it was crazy that you just tried heroin and were like, man, oh, yeah,

Speaker 2 I said the whole thing with drawing the needle back and the blood coming in.

Speaker 1 Was that, was that like creepy as fuck doing that? Like, I don't like needles at all. That's why I don't.

Speaker 2 No, it was creepy as fuck. And the thing is, it just felt like I was really stoned.
So I'm like, I'm not, why would I want to do this

Speaker 2 other than smoke pot? Yeah. because then i'm getting physically addicted i'll be sucking dick to get more or whatever

Speaker 2 yeah yeah so it wasn't it wasn't this like otherworldly oh that's the thing that's it that's the other thing when i went to the when i jacked off in the thing that's the third thing so when i was out that's was very significant so when i was there i said sushi's surfing and when i was out selling lsd if you they thought you were an alcoholic or uh doing coke or hair when you could not get the good LST off.

Speaker 2 You were done. And they always trained you for safety first.
And it's like they knew they could see in my soul, this motherfucker will not rat. Somehow they saw that.

Speaker 2 And when I jacked off, I said, I'm going to fucking try once. I want to just try it.
I want to stick a needle in my arm and I'm going to try heroin.

Speaker 1 Was that because of Jerry Garcia having,

Speaker 1 was he like into heroin then, or that was until like the 90s?

Speaker 2 It's, I don't know the whole history.

Speaker 2 He was in it, I mean, probably from the beginning, but when he got addicted, it was definitely in the 90s bad really bad and then he went to the forest knolls or serenity knolls and then he died i don't know if it's because of the that but it was the re no it wasn't because of that because the people that do heroin and

Speaker 2 coke and are alcoholic they're not thinking safety first right and then they bring that heat on

Speaker 2 people because the you know like they're they're in the circles of the the heavier drugs where lsd was very clandestine yeah

Speaker 1 so that makes sense. That was part of your thing.
Like, I'm going to try heroin too once. Once.
Now I can do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That was the three things I promised myself.

Speaker 1 You were getting crushed by the corporate lifestyle of selling LSD. So you're like, I'm going to go to the books.

Speaker 2 I was always to get to the next show.

Speaker 2 Like, cause if you went broke, you could sell grilled cheese and beer and make six or 800 bucks, buy 20 or 30 sheets, go to some city for two weeks with someone that you just met or they know the city and then make four or five thousand and you're good for like the whole tour.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, two or three grand in the 80s on tour was like you're set true and you got three or four guys in the car but like

Speaker 2 there's always was the juxtaposition it's like i'm risking my fucking life for a little bit of money even though i believe in it like so that was the dichotomy of wickedness i mean how fun was that just being uh you know a younger

Speaker 2 That was amazing.

Speaker 1 Basically just following around the graveyard.

Speaker 2 It was beautiful because like those people accepted me. It was like a family and it was just like love.
The scene in the parking lot when I went to the first show was unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Like it just was what was missing at home.

Speaker 2 And it was beautiful. But no, it wasn't like I was in fear because I've sold very little drugs at a show.
I would meet people and like make things happen, but it wasn't like I was out there.

Speaker 2 Doses, mushrooms, this.

Speaker 1 You weren't really getting after it like that.

Speaker 2 And you didn't have to because you could do grill and

Speaker 2 you could grill.

Speaker 2 grill cheese and beer and do fine and make money and then you know the acid connects and then like, these people who did the LSD, like

Speaker 2 we'll just say rainbow, you know, the Suvian man, the Vesuvian man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 So one side had that, and then the one side was surfing hippie ladies. And then the sheet is a thousand hits, which is like maybe a seven by ten.
And then ten of those is like accordion.

Speaker 2 So that's that's one gram of LSD, which looks just like a gram of cocaine.

Speaker 2 And then they would pay someone to batik those sheets with each square of a hundred hits would have the that Vesuvian, the Vitruvian Vitruvian man from what's his name? Nestinath? Da Vinci.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Da Vinci. And the other side would be the surfing hippie ladies.
But that piece of paper was like artwork. You could not

Speaker 2 counterfeit that. So if I saw one of those sheets on the lot, I'm like, all right, rainbow is here.
I'm going to search them out. Like, I know I can get.

Speaker 2 And then they would front me anything, but I would never, they would front me 10 grams, which is 100,000 hits. But I can, I would like, what am I going to do with it? And they would train me.

Speaker 2 Like, if you ever think there's heat around the corner, like, throw that shit away. You just have to stay safe.
Like, one time we did a 10-strip and like they were just with me when they met me.

Speaker 2 You took 10 hits, you're saying, yeah. And they could tell.

Speaker 2 However, they told, they could tell. But, like, I was in.

Speaker 1 Damn.

Speaker 2 You know, I was in.

Speaker 1 What was that like when you, when you like, that was your first experience? Was that your first experience, LSA?

Speaker 2 Nope. The first one was the year,

Speaker 2 the year anniversary of my dad's death. I was with

Speaker 2 a friend's, new friends that I met. And we were in the show.
They were blue unicorns, and there were lights like this on the ceiling. And we just kept eating the LSD

Speaker 2 because we're like, I'm like, I don't think it's real. I don't think it's real.
It was her second time. And then I don't know, I probably got to eight or nine.

Speaker 2 And then all of a sudden, we're like, this is real. But then we just spent the next.

Speaker 2 15 hours together. We were at the show.
It was the most beautiful, lovely experience. Like you could see,

Speaker 2 you could just, you were just in the moment. It's hard to explain in words.

Speaker 2 But that was a beautiful trip. But the time I took the 10 was

Speaker 2 Northern California. And like you could sleep.
I mean, pure good LSD is not,

Speaker 2 I don't think it's really harmful unless you have a very

Speaker 2 something

Speaker 2 psychologically that's really

Speaker 2 Okay impending you and or the precursor to the trip like if you just got in a wicked fight with your ex-wife and she's taking the kids and you got to double the alimony and then you then that might be bad yeah that makes sense and you were saying in the book too these people who were like there was only a few people who were able to somehow secure the ingredients necessary to make lsd because it is hard it's i i knew a guy in the lab and uh he could he could make almost anything but he's like i can't make lsd forgot i mean tartate no that's a substantial amount of glassware and it's not just some bathtub shit to get pure lsd 25

Speaker 2 it took some time and so the other thing is like, and you're not just going to make, you're going to end up with millions and millions of hit with a batch, you know?

Speaker 2 So it's like, you're going to have a lot. But those people that I met, they never were about bling bling.
They were specific to safety first and wanting to bring about radical social change.

Speaker 2 And when I was in prison, I met people from Caracas and all down South America, these big, huge Coke dealers. And this one dude, I remember his face, I can't think of his name.

Speaker 2 And he sort of made me start to think even more about it because he said, like, when the LSD came and he knew about Ausley, he knew all this stuff about like the scene, but he was like this wicked cocaine dealer, but he was so smart.

Speaker 2 And he said, when that LSD came in, it's when people were rioting in the government and we wanted to overthrow things. And he's like, that stuff brought about radical social change.

Speaker 2 So it makes sense that the government wanted it illegal, but who knows why? Maybe, you know, maybe they found some true serum way to like make people,

Speaker 2 they didn't want Russia to get it, but it did, they did a lot of stuff with alcoholism too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a big thing for AA. I think LSD, Bill, Bill Walter.
Wanted to do it everywhere.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then there's the, at the Jefferson in the 50s, they did, when I was in prison, they had a show with Barbara Walter on LSD, and the whole was sentencing and everything.

Speaker 2 And so in the 50s, they did this thing where they would take...

Speaker 1 alcoholics,

Speaker 2 non-AA, they take them on one bad trip, seriously bad, and show them everything they did wrong. And they filmed it.

Speaker 2 And then on Barbara Walter's Inside Federal Prison, they had like the dude's daughters or sons, and they're like 70 or 80.

Speaker 2 And they said the LSD saved our lives, like our dad or mom never took another drink. They completely changed them.
Damn. So that was a small study.

Speaker 1 How much was it? Do you think how much they were giving them? They were probably back then, I think it was them.

Speaker 2 They showed it was a thousand mics. They showed that

Speaker 2 it's the, it was from Santos.

Speaker 2 They called it Dysolin, Diselin, or something like that and they would give them a thousand mics but they literally would take them on a horrendously negative trip the whole entire time in a thing with doctors and like well it's weird too because and then it would infect them forever till they died i mean imagine in the and again in the 50s like lsd like you know i i grew up hearing about it you have like a context for what it is like oh it's like you know it's like hippie stuff and Jumping out the window, you're going to die.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or even being like, you know, say I was following like fish. And if I was a kid, I would have been like, yeah, it's like, it's like weed.
It's like you get high.

Speaker 1 But in the 50s, if someone just hit you with 10 hits of LSD in a lab and like, get your fucking life together, I'd be like,

Speaker 2 I always thought it was going to make you go crazy. I mean, I didn't take LSD until I was

Speaker 2 1990, 1989, 20 was the first time. And so I had a few times at shows I would buy a sheet or two from someone I didn't know.
And I just would sell it at high school. I'd say, is this real?

Speaker 2 And I did mushrooms a couple of times. But like, even though I thought I was a free thinker, there was like, you know, you're going to take it and you're going to want to fly and jump out a window.

Speaker 2 Like somewhere that got started because that was always in my head. But it wasn't that dangerous.
But I don't know if it's for everyone.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 But I think that if a if a big slice, like if you go to Gaza, right, then Terrence McKenna would go all the way to group sex, but he's like, you get both sides, Palestine, the Jews, and let's all take some LSD and sit in a room.

Speaker 2 I guarantee you they're going to fucking figure it out and they might start each other that'd be sick right

Speaker 1 i mean

Speaker 2 the peace on earth man

Speaker 1 you know yeah i mean it does seem like it could you know do that it is it is unfortunate because i like you were saying it's not for everybody and i have seen people who will who abuse it kind of lose it like lsd yes so i've never seen that i believe it but but i think you have to have underlying stuff already kind of kicking around used it like daily they were just no there was like every weekend just boom like and like constantly as you said in your book you didn't take it less than a dozen times because it's so profound.

Speaker 2 What do you need?

Speaker 1 These guys were every weekend, that, the nitrous, they were just partying with it. And they, I remember,

Speaker 1 I see the one guy. I was in a grocery store and I'm like, oh, hey, what's up, man? He was working there.
I'm like, how you doing?

Speaker 1 Dude, he was, he cornered me. He's like, I'm fighting a battle against light and darkness.
And I was like, oh, boy. I was like, all right, bro.

Speaker 1 I was like, you know, I'm going to grab my stuff and get out of here. But it was.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I remember this guy.

Speaker 1 But again, it could have been just like underlying stuff because that is like, you know, if you take a person who already has, even if, like, you know, they could have like had a job and just been a little weird or whatever, but it's like if you've really kind of ramped that shit up and it's like, and you don't give them any kind of like way to work through all that stuff, it's like, yeah, no, you're not gonna make sense.

Speaker 1 You would lose your fucking mind because you have psych now.

Speaker 2 What is that?

Speaker 1 That was a, I'm still trying to figure out how to do it. I have an idea with what I want to do, but I got obsessed.
Uh,

Speaker 1 so I've always liked psychology. So I've always liked psychology, and then I went to school for social work to get my master's.

Speaker 1 Yes, I wanted to start something like AA that's just not centered around drugs, where

Speaker 1 you can kind of get people. Anything.

Speaker 1 Yes, who are like, I could talk to people who are, you know, like PhDs or whatever and have them help me come up with some sort of program that could be peer-led around like just mental health stuff in general.

Speaker 1 That way, like you can't afford a therapist, if you can't afford a therapist, you could still have like a group that's like, it's not like therapy per se, but it would be using

Speaker 1 the tools, yeah, like that these people, like these PhD level people make up and like, how do you kind of disseminate them in a way that like it could be done in like a peer-to-peer thing?

Speaker 1 That's my goal. And I'm still now looking for therapists now because I want to just salary a couple therapists now that I can to just kind of like run groups and like kind of like

Speaker 1 curate the whole like online space.

Speaker 2 That's awesome. Yeah.
And it'd be, it's for how did you get that name?

Speaker 1 I made it up. It's like, no, I don't know.
It's kind of funny because, you know, but,

Speaker 1 but yes, that is my goal. You know, we do need to figure something out collectively because this isn't, you know, it's clearly not working, dude.

Speaker 1 It's like the fact that we're immune to like kids shooting kids in school now.

Speaker 1 It's like, it happens enough to where it's like all right dude there's some we need to organize ourselves mentally a different way we're organized around you know one thing right now and it's not really

Speaker 1 working yeah pretty much and it's like it's it's good i don't hate i don't hate money but it's like it's clearly something's getting fucked up and it's like we're i i really feel like as human beings you know we're organisms and like we're not

Speaker 1 it's it's hard for people to wrap their head around the fact for everybody that they're not like the most important person in the world because as an organism if you you know if you think about organisms the cells well a it's cells.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, if you, if you're an organism and you sense an organism that's bigger than you, that's a threat to your life. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Because if you're, if, if you're an animal, just say you're an animal, if you're an animal and you see, if you're a wolf and you see a bigger wolf, that wolf could very well kill you and that sets off a chain of reactions.

Speaker 1 But human beings, our sense of like largeness is kind of abstract. So if you perceive somebody's bigger than you in some sense, it can set off like a very real

Speaker 1 biological event that can color your thinking and behavior. And it's like, no one really thinks about that, but it's like something people have to come to grips with.

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See Mint Mobile for details, but whatever. But the, but yeah, so that's, I don't know, man.

Speaker 1 I think we could we could have a good time up here on Earth, but it's, you know, it sucks for everybody. It's kind of shitty.

Speaker 2 Is it the human condition?

Speaker 1 I think so.

Speaker 2 We're stuck. The iPhone.
Yeah. I got an iPhone in April or May.
I had a flip phone

Speaker 2 from 2013. I shut off my iPhone too.
Dude, that motherfucker is worse than bad cocaine.

Speaker 1 Yeah, dude.

Speaker 1 I'm coming to grips with how addicted I am to my phone, and it's like, it's bad, man. I got my screen time down to like, I think like three hours.

Speaker 1 And I think this week I should be hitting two, but it's like, dude, it's such an addiction.

Speaker 2 But you need it for your business, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I do, but it's like I could use it in a way where I'm not like pulling it out and being like,

Speaker 1 every two hours, They're just well, the worst part is with social media, you're addicted to yourself. You're like, you've commodified your personality.
How many likes? You're checking on your money.

Speaker 1 How much money? Yeah, now you have like, it's, it's like very real, you know, quantitative data on like your personality. And so, of course,

Speaker 1 there's an addictive component to the phone, but like, nothing's more addictive than yourself and like, you know, your insecurities and checking on all that.

Speaker 1 And I think that's what ties a lot of people to it.

Speaker 2 And the kids, now that they're like, if I don't have likes, this whole idea of

Speaker 2 shootings, yeah.

Speaker 1 So, that's you know, but either way, so yeah, I kind of agree.

Speaker 1 I, you know, something that needs to happen, but you know, it's one of those things where it's like when people try to push the pedal, like, I got the solution to push the pedal.

Speaker 1 Usually, it's just 10 times worse. So, I don't know.
I'll be curious to see what happens with people.

Speaker 1 But, either way, um, so, dude,

Speaker 1 okay, so you're, this is what, what else did I want to ask you about? So, you, oh, this is the thing that was, I thought was crazy.

Speaker 1 So, you're in, you're just, you're kicking around different, you know, prisons. Six.
yeah you're six didn't adjust well

Speaker 1 who does right true but you're kicking around things are going well you know you're you're you know you've got some you got some hustles going on and then

Speaker 1 you have the altercation with the guard and this was the thing i thought the craziest part of the book you have the altercation with if you said that name in a disrespectful way the arian brotherhood would have killed you

Speaker 1 What do you mean?

Speaker 2 Wait, which guard? You're talking about.

Speaker 1 The guard who sent you to Marion.

Speaker 2 Oh, that guy. The lieutenant.
Okay, no.

Speaker 1 What card are you talking about?

Speaker 2 And when I had Marion, when I said, I'll do you like Tommy Silver. That was crazy.

Speaker 1 That was like ridiculous.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, the black lieutenant, though. That really was the chain of events to get me there.

Speaker 1 I thought it was kind of nuts. So you're in jail.
Things are going well, whatever. This black lieutenant takes your bag.
You guys get into an altercation.

Speaker 2 He called me a hippie rat. He did.
He threw me down.

Speaker 2 He called me a hippie rat, and I called him a really fucked up name. I don't want to say that.

Speaker 1 You don't have to.

Speaker 2 But the whole yard saw that.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And he had. And I never ratted, but he knew that.

Speaker 1 He knew. How did he realize that? He said that to you in front of all the other prisoners, which is kind of like that sense.

Speaker 2 He's like, well, because when I came to that prison, he wanted the bag. He's like, I'm going to get that bag.
I know you faked that property slip.

Speaker 1 And your friend stitched it for you. It was like a nice, yeah, it was like a, it was like your prized possession.

Speaker 2 James Irving, yeah. And so it was in, that was the third prison I was in with it.
And then

Speaker 2 I'm coming out of chow to go to the yard and he's, give me that bag, you hippie rat.

Speaker 2 And I yanked it back just out of reaction he body slammed me it's like 6'4 6'5 250 260 huge lieutenant i mean he's running it

Speaker 1 and he's like you fucking hippie rat and i'm like oh fuck but he knew when you come in they know who's ratted who didn't rat who might have to be in pc or not so he knew that he was pushing my buttons but anyway Yeah, so the thing I thought that was wild was like that incident kind of aligned itself with the crack laws where it was like they reduced the sentences on powder cocaine, didn't reduce the sentences on crack cocaine.

Speaker 1 So then there were these like racial riots in the jail. And then that

Speaker 2 was the first one out of 12 to riot. That's really serious.

Speaker 1 12 prisons around the country. And like, dude, that was the damage.
It was crazy. Like the bill you were saying it was.

Speaker 2 Did you see the report? No, what was the report?

Speaker 2 I have the whole riot report. Well, now I got to re-put it back up on my new website, but it's a report from the Justice Department.
It shows like all the prisons that rioted, what was

Speaker 2 burnt down to the ground, and they said that the instigator was Talladega, Alabama, and they charged me with leading it, which was the lieutenant.

Speaker 1 That's a crazy thing. Yeah.
Well, it was really like a

Speaker 1 racially inspired riot because it was like black guys were going to jail for crack. For the most part, white guys are going to jail for Coke.

Speaker 2 And at methamphetamine and LSD, they changed all those together.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 So the black guys were understandably kind of pissed. So they rioted.

Speaker 2 It's the same drug. I know.

Speaker 1 But then that lieutenant was like, oh, yeah, this guy instigated the riot.

Speaker 1 So you went to from just like, you know, prison to then having to go to Supermax prison based on really just a beef you had with the lieutenant, which is fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 Crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's 22 or 23 black guys and me. And then after the riot, when they did the hearings, everybody in the prison got in wicked trouble.
But no one got sent to Marion but just us 23.

Speaker 1 And Marion, do you explain what Marion is? Because I didn't know what it was before I read the marriage.

Speaker 2 Supermax Federal Prison opened up in 63 after Alcatraz closed. There was a control unit.
And then in 1983, Tommy Silverstein and Clayton Fontaine killed two prison guards in the control unit,

Speaker 2 which was the Super Max of Super Maxes. And then as a result of that, they made all of Marion the control unit.
And they called it the Marion model.

Speaker 2 So that was the most secure, heinous 23-hour lockdown ever. fucking conceived and man

Speaker 2 and then like 2006 they decommissioned it and then the adx opened. But in the 1990s, it was like 385 of the most sophisticated, predacious motherfuckers on planet Earth, man.

Speaker 1 And me, what the fuck? It was long hair. It was a three-hour lockdown, one hour outside a day.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and you had bars. So that actually was a saving grace because if you're laying in your cell, single cells, you're looking out, you see the big tall windows.

Speaker 2 Whereas if you imagined it was like a door, like in the ADX,

Speaker 2 and some days they might give us 90 minutes.

Speaker 1 Damn. And you were

Speaker 1 saying in the, sorry, and the thing that really kind of like, I thought was nuts in the other prison, during the riots, you were like about to go to the yard to work out and you were like.

Speaker 1 It was weird. Let me go back to my room.
And you were saying the yard itself was just like an apocalyptic battle of like dudes getting raped, people getting their heads smashed.

Speaker 2 When I went to Marion, my neighbor.

Speaker 2 Told me a story of Dean who went out on the yard because he said that they after the riots They both got transferred to this other prison then T came to

Speaker 2 Marion. And then, and he just, he didn't know that what you just said that I put in the book, but he told me what happened out on the yard.
And he said, Dean was almost dead.

Speaker 2 Like he was beat so bad, like his head caved in. Like he was alive, but just like not doing really good, even after like months of.

Speaker 2 Like he was that fucked up. But then in the unit, you walk in and it was just a jungle, but like we were all together.
They were breaking the machines.

Speaker 2 We were trying to break down the door to where all the records were because that all the official records were still like physical these guys we had all the cracklock guys wanted to burn them

Speaker 1 understand because they're like no i only have a year damn no they would have sucked i know i know that i'm saying i know that'd be crazy taking that down and that book i talk and when the book um you can't win by jack black that he's like a burglar or whatever in the early 1900s he ends up finally in a jail in california i think in uh

Speaker 1 was it folsom Maybe it was Folsom. I don't know where it was, but he, either way, he got, there was an earthquake, and all the records for all the prisoners got destroyed in like a fire or something.

Speaker 1 And he ended up getting stuck because he couldn't get out. He couldn't go in or out because he was already there.
So we couldn't prove like he did enough time, but he eventually did get out.

Speaker 1 But yeah, that's, damn, if only of those guys had grabbed the records, that would have been so sweet.

Speaker 2 When they toured us out of the, because I didn't see everything that happened. Once they locked us down, we were in that unit for eight, nine, 10, 12, 13 days before we left for Marion.

Speaker 2 But when they took us all out to go to Marion, the one building was burnt to the ground and another building was halfway burnt down.

Speaker 2 And then when we were in there, we could hear bulldozers and shit, but you didn't really know what's happened. But I'm like, where the whole housing unit was, it was gone.

Speaker 2 It's like, fuck. I mean, you could smell smoke, but you just didn't know how bad it was.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you got to see the damage.

Speaker 2 Before they took our radios, we would hear on like that one dude.

Speaker 2 I can't remember that guy who would always come on in the morning. It was a national radio show, but he had started to say about all these other prisons that rioted.

Speaker 1 Oh, he said all the other ones, and they kind of tried to suppress that. Yeah, I remember reading how they were trying to act like, nah, we're good.

Speaker 1 And then other, didn't other ones like say there was stuff just so that they could clamp down and get overtime and exactly.

Speaker 2 That was in the report, too. Yeah.
There were some that did that.

Speaker 2 And the funny thing is, the ones that, here's the thing, what I talked about earlier, the medium security prisons were the ones where the most violence in buildings being burnt happened because these guys that it's an it's a consensual crime.

Speaker 2 I sell you something. I know it's illegal.
All right.

Speaker 2 I didn't do the crime, do the time, but it's like I could have raped, I could have robbed you, I could have stolen so much more money and gotten less time. Like, it's not fair.

Speaker 1 That was always my thing. It's like the prison law should be according to who would you rather have as your neighbor, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Would I rather have a guy who sold Coke or a pedophile?

Speaker 1 It's like, all right, a a pedophile should be a longer time than a guy who sells coke because it's like that's who i'd rather live next to if if i had to choose or if i didn't have a choice it would be like you know it should be people should be sentenced accordingly did you ever look at when you moved to a new neighborhood the federal uh

Speaker 2 sex offender registry

Speaker 1 it's unbelievable map and you could just hover you see who they are what their crime is other than probation and there's what a tool yeah they're everywhere and there's a lot of them man i did it when i lived in philly and they were i was shocked there was like a there was a decent amount and i think they had them all in one house they were all in like this one house uh like four blocks away and i don't know if they just like some landlord struck that might be my next play uh you know free prison what do you mean like you know like

Speaker 2 because the state there's a demand where are you gonna put them when they come out right yeah and maybe like

Speaker 2 there's just i don't know like the greed makes me think about it but like if you could find a place for them to live you're gonna have a you know you'll be able to rent the unit out every time Oh, you're talking about like pedophiles specifically or just

Speaker 2 pedophiles, pedophiles.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there, there's, there's, what are we going to do with them? Where are we going to put them? And the thing is,

Speaker 2 I don't know if it's an addiction. I want to think it is, but like, those guys should never come out ever.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they should have to. You should, like, ever.
They should be. There's a documentary to watch where they, it's called Pervert Park.

Speaker 1 It's a really rough watch, but they, they have like a trailer park in Florida, and they're just a gated community. It's like they just all live in here and people just fucking

Speaker 1 your bottles over at no okay so they're contained then at least they know where they are but dude not like so i used to get housing for people when i went to school for social work one of my jobs was to get housing for prisoners so you get out of jail i would i would do a little interview like hey you know i'd have to get like what is the nature of your crime but it was like It was just like selling drugs and stuff.

Speaker 1 And then the lady who ran it didn't tell me she had opened up to pedophiles because that was one of my, I would like, you know, the crap break the ice because I didn't like to be like, hey, what'd you go to jail for?

Speaker 1 So I'd be like, hey, I have to ask you this. As long as you're not like a pedophile, whatever, don't worry.
And they'd always be like, what the fuck? I'm not a fucking pedophile. I'm like, you know.

Speaker 1 And then one day the guy was like, well, I actually am. And I was like, what? And then they were like, yeah.
And I talked to my boss. I'm like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 And she was like, yeah, I decided to start taking pedophiles. We got to find them housing too.
And I was like, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 What year? This was only like, this would have been 2019, 2019, 2018, around then.

Speaker 1 My thing was like, I didn't want to, and I would call their probation officers because I would be like, I don't, isn't there laws? These guys can't be, I can't, like, throw this guy into Best Buy.

Speaker 1 Like, there's kids around. No, there's the thousand feet or whatever by a school and all that.
But I think there is. That's what I thought it was, man.

Speaker 1 But this, this person, it was kind of like, you know, leading the thing, you know, as far as I remember, was kind of like, no, no, no, they're fine. They have rights.

Speaker 1 And I like, I call the guy's probation officer. I'm like, this guy can't work here, can he? The probation officer was like, fuck no.
And I was like, yeah, I didn't think so. So it was weird.

Speaker 1 I remember I ended up telling the lady, I was like,

Speaker 2 don't ask, don't tell. We got to get rid of him.

Speaker 1 I was like, bro, I'm not sending this guy into apartment buildings. I don't know.

Speaker 1 So it was, I just told her, like, I don't, you know.

Speaker 2 The stigma seems less now for ex-drug dealers.

Speaker 1 It does.

Speaker 2 Those guys. That's legal.
I mean, if you went to jail for weed, like, how could that even...

Speaker 1 I got those guys' houses pretty easily because I would just cold call landlords and be like, hey, I got this great deal, six month upfront, paid rent. And they'd be like, oh, what is it? What is it?

Speaker 1 And I'd be like, here's the catch. And then they would go, oh, come on, man.
I'd be like, dude, they're not like fucking pedophiles. They're just, they just sold drugs.

Speaker 1 Like, come on, the six months is paid up.

Speaker 2 People pay their rent.

Speaker 1 Who cares? And then, so they were cool about that. But once she tried to have me find like the pedophile, and I had to tell her, like, look, I'm not the guy to help.

Speaker 1 Because now they're going to, you, not even, well, not even. Yeah, then you're going to fuck up all these other guys' housing.
And it's also like.

Speaker 1 Like, I remember the one dude would call me, the guy who was on my caseload who had that kind of stuff. And he would just be like, hey, I'm outside in my head.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, I wouldn't even be there. And I'd be like, I don't give a fuck.
He's like, it's raining. And I'd be like, tough.
So I'm like, there's got to be someone who can help that guy.

Speaker 1 So they do need help from somebody, but it was like, I'm not, I can't do it, man. I just, I couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 Like, you just build like a, you know, a 600-unit spot, like, and you just, they're all there. Where are they going to go?

Speaker 1 Dude, it's a weird thing to do. And they just kind of like hush the, yeah, and quietly tuck them in a neighborhood and like, hey, you know, here's the guy's here.
And it's like, it's fucked up, man.

Speaker 1 It's really fucked up.

Speaker 2 And then when you do the real estate transaction, you got to say you know about the sex offender registry. Like, you have to check that box

Speaker 2 because it's like no one, if someone moved into your neighborhood and they do that, it's going to devalue everything.

Speaker 1 Yep, it's that. Those guys have a hard time.

Speaker 2 They never seem to be able to break free.

Speaker 1 No, it's not.

Speaker 2 It's not like you sold LSD, you went to prison, you never sold it again. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Even if you did, whatever.

Speaker 2 Well, I did flood Marion with it. Did you really? Last time.
What?

Speaker 1 How'd you do that?

Speaker 1 So, yeah, you were in the situation.

Speaker 2 No, I did. I set it up.

Speaker 2 I don't want to say his name.

Speaker 1 Oh, I remember this when you, because you were pissed when you got, is that, was that correct?

Speaker 2 I don't think I put it in the book, but

Speaker 2 maybe I put it in the book. I don't think it's 2015 I got out.
No, that would have been after the statue of limitations. So I set it up.
I set it up.

Speaker 2 I said to my friend, I said, listen, I don't know if I'm going to do this, but if you get a letter that's like this from this place, this is where the LSD will be.

Speaker 2 So I drove. I mean, I was on federal.
All this shit's passed. It's five years statue of limitations.
The only way that they can extend it is if they ask a court and then they have to notify you.

Speaker 1 It's just all entertainment anyway, dude.

Speaker 2 So, right. And

Speaker 2 so I got it. I got the liquid.
I put it on the paper. I wrote this letter with gloves on and with my right left hand,

Speaker 2 you know, the envelope.

Speaker 2 And I drove, actually, drove past Marion, way down south through Illinois, and then into some that state that's right to the east, either Tennessee or Kentucky, and then just went to a mailbox with a stamp and just put it in.

Speaker 2 So then it had that

Speaker 2 thing, right? And then

Speaker 2 he acknowledged it in a very

Speaker 2 with the future letter. He didn't say anything, yeah.
But then I never wrote him back again.

Speaker 1 That's cool, guys.

Speaker 2 I had to do it. It's one last act of defiance.
Like, just I had to do it. And the thing is, like, they could have come to me and said, he said he got caught with it.
You sent it.

Speaker 2 There was no fucking trace. I didn't have a cell phone.
It's not like they knew I drove that. I didn't get pulled over.
There was no, like, there's no way.

Speaker 1 And it just got, it just ran right through there. That must have been wild.

Speaker 2 The thing is, like, I did a line of coke one time in prison. And, like, smoking weed, it took, it was hard to get used to.

Speaker 2 When James first got me stoned, I was crying in my bunk because it's just the horror of what, dude.

Speaker 1 That must have, that must have been terrible that high in jail.

Speaker 2 Twice there was acid and I didn't take it. But one time this guy gave me this Lana Coke ether-based, just wicked, just so high.

Speaker 2 But then coming down off that, dude, was like, not that you want you wanted more but you're like i'm in fucking prison uh dude that's a hard fucking reality so we're taking acid yeah

Speaker 2 herb got four or five hits each is it was 200 mics and he asked me for like a week not to push me but he said because he's like we're all gonna take this but there's one for you

Speaker 2 And then he kept coming to the channel and saying, are you sure? Because he's like, I'll probably never get this again. And I remember when they took it, they had a great time.

Speaker 2 but I just thought if I took that in jail, like

Speaker 2 eight or ten hours of tripping in prison, I don't know, man. I couldn't do it.
I couldn't.

Speaker 1 I have a friend who smoked K2 in jail, like the synthetic weed. Yep.
And he said he fucking, and this guy, you know, this guy was doing it.

Speaker 2 Isn't it just like weed?

Speaker 1 Yeah, but apparently it's like, it's like kind of harsh from what I've heard. It's like, it can be like, because it's just a chemical.
So like weed, the plant can only get so strong. But K2,

Speaker 1 they're spraying these synthetic cannabinoids.

Speaker 2 You know, it could be fucking who knows. Exactly.

Speaker 1 So he said, and this guy, he had, you know, he had done like like tripping all the drugs you could possibly do. And he was like, dude, fuck that shit.
He said he was in there.

Speaker 1 He kept hearing people coming, checking on it. And it wasn't happening.
It was him and the dude in there just in terror.

Speaker 2 Did you like the way we made pipes?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It worked perfectly.

Speaker 2 And the thing is, if you blow the smoke out with another tube of bounce, you see smoke, but you cannot smell it.

Speaker 1 That was the old college trick. Unbelievable.
That's the old college trick, too.

Speaker 2 You got to suck the whole hit down, though, so there's no little smoke left.

Speaker 1 That was the college trick. You would put the Febreze,

Speaker 1 fabric softener sheet in a paper towel thing and blow it out.

Speaker 2 Because spots smell so strong to people that don't

Speaker 2 smoke it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, smoking weed in jail does seem like a lot of trouble. Seems like you'd have to be really kind of careful.
I guess you could go outside.

Speaker 2 Sparky took me out. We just kept hitting this joint, kept hitting this joint during the move right when I arrived.
And when I got back, I swear to God, it was like I took 10 hits of acid. Freaked out.

Speaker 2 I was so fucking stoned. Like,

Speaker 2 dude. And I'm like, 151 months.
I hadn't won an appeal. It was just this wickedness.

Speaker 1 It really set in. That weed does that to you where the reality of stuff sets in.

Speaker 2 Every day took me twice a day.

Speaker 1 And after about a week, it was like, I can't afford to find it.

Speaker 2 Fuck it. You got to do your time, right?

Speaker 2 And then they taught me how to beat the piss test.

Speaker 1 You drink a lot. Oh, yeah.
I've heard about that.

Speaker 2 You drink a gallon of water and then the lieutenants give you two hours because they can't just grab you and say pee. They say you got two hours to report to the lieutenant's office.

Speaker 2 You got to drink a full gallon in 15 minutes. They taught me this.
And then they said by the sixth or seventh piss, they said, you want to wait to seven if you can wait till eight.

Speaker 2 It's just pure water.

Speaker 1 Don't you get a dilute though? I heard you, the drug test now, they can hit you with, it was too diluted.

Speaker 2 This was the 90s. And the thing is, whenever they would take the, the, they'd take it, you'd go back to the lieutenant's office.
They would make it look like they're putting it in a mailer.

Speaker 2 But then they would always ask you, if you admit to us you did you did drugs we'll give you we'll only give you 30 days i mean i never would but nothing ever came back dirty today the test might be different like the the whole whatever but if you didn't piss you would get it dirty then it's 90 days in the hole and you'd probably get transferred yeah it sucks which is the fucking worst and you also if they you know even if it was diluted you'd have the time because it'd have to get mailed out ran through a lab and by then it's like hey i don't know did they do that in the 90s the dilution i've just heard about it i don't know i was so young in the 90s i was a i was a wee boy but the uh i remember hearing about that move like just slam a bunch of fucking water but then it would the test would come back as like inconclusive because it was just too diluted i don't think i think that eighth piss because you're talking now maybe at 45 50 minute mark if you slam that it looks like water it smells like water yeah it's probably barely 98 degrees warm no it makes sense back then that they would have been it like but today i think they probably could detect it yeah anything i had to do a drug test when i I was working for my dad.

Speaker 1 He does demolition. We were like working in like a, on the hospital kind of, or was it a hospital? It was a school.
It was a school. So they, like, everyone had to get drug tested.

Speaker 1 So I remember what we had to do, you know, we had all day. And it wasn't like you had somebody watching you.
So we just had like, I filled up a latex glove of pee from somebody I knew.

Speaker 1 And then you just keep a hand warmer on it. So it keeps it at like 98 degrees.

Speaker 2 How did you know he was clean? You just hoped?

Speaker 1 I just knew he was. I asked him.
I knew so. He didn't smoke weed or do anything.
So I was like, let me get pee in this glove for me. Or pee in a thing.
And then I just dumped it in the glove.

Speaker 1 And it worked. Kept it on a hand warmer.
But then I got there, my friend needed some too. So we had to split it.
And then we both, I didn't realize there was a minimum amount.

Speaker 1 So we both gave like that.

Speaker 2 Did they take it?

Speaker 1 That's it. The nurse was cool.
She was really, but they hit you with the temperature. That was a big thing.
They temp check it.

Speaker 2 Because then they see if it's cold.

Speaker 1 It's like 98.5. Exactly.
So the hand warmers, I had to ask for hand warmers in like July. I was like, you guys have hand warmers back here? And they're like, yeah, but why?

Speaker 1 I was like, I don't know, man. I just need them.
I'm going somewhere. So, but yeah, that is that's pretty crazy.

Speaker 2 So, then that story, too, about getting what about the duffel bag?

Speaker 1 What about it?

Speaker 2 What do you think happened to it?

Speaker 1 What, the duffel bag you got taken from you? Didn't you get it? Did you get it back? Yeah. Yeah, that was the end of the book, man.
You got that. That was, it all came together.
That guy.

Speaker 2 What the fuck? So that money.

Speaker 1 So he felt fucking bad.

Speaker 2 He held. No, he, that lieutenant sent it to me after I got home from Marion, which means he held it the whole time I was in Marion.

Speaker 1 What the hell was it? What was that about? Why did he give it back to you?

Speaker 2 It was the fuck you.

Speaker 1 You think that was his fuck you to do? 100%.

Speaker 1 What? You don't think that was. I thought, I took that as the guy who was like, had a nice moment where he was just like, yeah, let me give this guy his bag back.

Speaker 2 No way.

Speaker 1 Why did he do that?

Speaker 2 Just to be a dickhead? I think so. I burned it in a 55-gallon drum that day.
I had a ceremony to let it all go.

Speaker 1 That's pretty sad. That's cool.
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 I did. And maybe it was.
I never thought that. I mean, I wasn't in a bad.
It just struck me like this motherfucker sent it back now.

Speaker 1 It is weird. Also, is it normal to keep, like, how would he even get an alert that you were out?

Speaker 2 He was following it. He had to be.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's kind of weird.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So, like, but it represented so much.

Speaker 2 I had to, like, the Phoenix, like, just let this go. And I had a ceremony.

Speaker 1 That's pretty cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 No one was there. And I just, like, this is going.

Speaker 1 This thing's out of here. That makes sense.

Speaker 1 I don't regret it.

Speaker 2 But it would have been kind of cool to say, hey, here's the green duffel bag.

Speaker 1 but no man i had to let it go i had to just get rid of it it symbolized so much yeah and just to move was that bad psychologically what do you think no i think that's you know feel good doing that get rid of it just to you know that way you're out that's like a chapter that's totally done with yeah and it's there's something kind of cool and ceremonial about being like all right i'm done with this part i can let go especially if you think the guy was with you i'd be like you dude what i don't know that it shocked me though yeah i'd be freaked out this came it was shocking yeah that would have freaked me out like first of all i was like dude you're keeping

Speaker 2 staying with my brother which the probation officer would have known but like all my other stuff i had yeah like because the when i left marion there's that stuff that got sent like this is maybe

Speaker 2 weeks or months later it just was weird that is weird and then the the one thing i did want to ask you about because this is in the book as well you got out and you started a pretty successful real estate dude i was so focused i got to come back no i was like uh by accident The house

Speaker 2 was a bust.

Speaker 2 They showed Coke. I was going to my job.
There's an arcane law that was like, you can make an unsolicited bid with the Marshal Service if they take, if they seize assets.

Speaker 2 And I knew all this from jail. Yeah, exactly.
And so then I actually dated the Marshal.

Speaker 1 That helps.

Speaker 2 A little. She probably would deny it.
So I bought that house.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I bought that house

Speaker 2 probably 18 months later for like $25,000. And then I just like felt like changing the design.
My mom would always take me to these Frank Lloyd-Wright homes.

Speaker 2 And so I just started doing it. And then some people helped me in the neighborhood.
They saw sympathetic to the architecture, but I needed help like with the design and just people and contractors.

Speaker 2 And then that just started the evolution.

Speaker 2 I was hyper-focused, monster, just like going after it, like not worried about a Rolex, but just loving what I do. And I was good at it.

Speaker 2 The best that I've ever been at anything, probably, in the world of commerce and making money that's legit, paying taxes. I mean, 2005, I paid $175,000 in federal tax.

Speaker 2 I mean, where the fuck did that money go, man? A fucking tank tread? Like, goddamn. Yeah, so that just focused me.

Speaker 2 And I just would buy buildings, restore them, or buy apartment buildings, restore them, rent them, and sell them.

Speaker 1 That's cool. Yeah.
And you got into like just kind of, I remember the I did addresses and everything.

Speaker 2 And then my lake house, this massive lake estate,

Speaker 2 S109W35190 Jacksbury Road, Eagle, Wisconsin, 53149. Dude,

Speaker 2 fucking unbelievable. Yeah, you had the spot was unbelievable.

Speaker 1 And you got hit with a subprime mortgage crisis.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man. I was told.

Speaker 2 That's wild, dude. I was told not to.
Yeah. I mean, I don't blame them.

Speaker 2 I wanted to get to 3 million and then get 3 million in T-bills and then still what I did, still do what I do. But that was my goal.
And I had nine years at $1,010,000.

Speaker 2 I bought that Lake Estate and two other houses, $6,429, North Santa Monica

Speaker 2 and $15.25, North Marshall. And then just, it went, man.
And I paid all the mortgages till I had like $11,000 left.

Speaker 2 And then a bankruptcy lawyer came to me and said, if you file bankruptcy, you could stay in that lake house for another 18 months. I said, dude, I'm giving the keys back.
Like, it's done.

Speaker 2 I'm not just going to stay here. And I flew to Hawaii and I started to care take a farm.
But that took me 10 years mentally. Like now, like you being on here, like

Speaker 2 that focus and drive, like it's there. I have it.
But I still do it today. And I have a little not where I was, but I'm not driven like I was and I want to be.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 I want to be.

Speaker 1 But you're still doing the properties. Yes.
That's cool. Rehabbing and fixing up.

Speaker 2 Yep. Yeah.
I guess I'm an artist and buildings are my medium.

Speaker 2 I'm not a contractor because I can't do it for someone else because then it's their vision and I can't just do what I do with the people, you know?

Speaker 1 That's true.

Speaker 2 So it gives, that's what I know. Like I can't, you know, like, I'm not a painter.

Speaker 2 For sure. That's kind of like what the hand I was dealt.

Speaker 1 Yeah. No, that's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 And I love working out.

Speaker 1 I like working out. It's a nice physical job.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 what's the plan now? What are you up to now? And what's your plan to do? Well,

Speaker 2 you've inspired me. I'm going to do an audible on the book.
I'm going to do a second edition. i'm pretty sure i'm going to keep the name um

Speaker 2 and then the whole social media thing is like all new to me but like you can get paid for views yeah like you can go on a show and drink liquid death and show it and like you're going to get 10 grand like i see it i understand marketing like holy man

Speaker 2 yeah man why not like it's cool the the fame part is weird to me but i guess like that's part of it you know like so are you you going to start a podcast or something? I don't think I could compete.

Speaker 1 Right. But you just want to do the real stuff.

Speaker 2 I'd love to sell the book, The Movie Rights. I had started a creamplate.
That would be really cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah. With the book, it was funny because you sold, you did, what, 5,000 copies? Yes.
Sold them. And now the only books are on Amazon.
And I was like,

Speaker 2 I'm not selling them for $200.

Speaker 2 Those are other people.

Speaker 1 I looked up his book. Me and Nate were there.
Nate Marshall were looking at it.

Speaker 2 You thought it was me.

Speaker 1 I was like, damn, this guy's selling his books for fucking $200.

Speaker 1 No. And that's all they're secondhand sellers.
Because they sold all your ones.

Speaker 2 From the Soft White Underbelly. It's like within a couple months, I'm like, Mark, what the fuck? People are selling my book for $250.
He's like, yeah, that's part of the deal.

Speaker 1 You got to print more, dude. I could print more.

Speaker 2 Or do a second edition because what I want to do is a chapter every other let every other

Speaker 2 letter every other chapter and then add Marion. I took a bunch of stuff out about Marion.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the book was great. Dude, I'm telling you, the book was great.
I couldn't stop reading it.

Speaker 2 But they'll do a feature feature film on a guy who invented the delay on a windshield wiper, $80 million. Like, they'll do it on anything.
But the story,

Speaker 2 not my story. I mean, my story is there, but just the story of the history of Marion.
Yeah. And the

Speaker 2 drug laws and like the riots.

Speaker 2 Yeah. What the fuck.

Speaker 1 That was cool. And it was fascinating.

Speaker 2 It's crazy after this many years. Like, you have me on this podcast.
It makes it relevant again. Like, unfucking believable.
Like how the fuck?

Speaker 2 Like you saw that show and you're like, I got to get this guy. Like, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then I took 21 days to respond. I'm like, oh, my God, this motherfucker's going to think.

Speaker 1 Not a big deal.

Speaker 1 What the fuck?

Speaker 1 I think it was crazy how you were in there and you were describing like the people, especially in Marion, like these guys would kill you, like without hesitating.

Speaker 1 And you have to form friendships with these guys and hang

Speaker 1 holiday. And the fact, yeah, the fact that you did tell

Speaker 1 me that we didn't get it. I'll leave that in the book.
But yeah, that is funny that you just completely beefed with the guards on that level and threatened them that you're going to kill him.

Speaker 2 Well, I thought about it on the plane coming here. There was a leader of the Aryan Brotherhood who's now in the ADX, Mike McElhiny.

Speaker 2 He never overtly,

Speaker 2 I thought, danger of him, but I knew he was a wicked dude. Like you have like the big wolf, but like he gave me a respect.

Speaker 2 And it had to be, because who the fuck would he also probably thought I I was a fucking idiot because the guards could have killed me? But like, who would have ever said that? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do you like Tommy Silverstein. Like, what the fuck, man?

Speaker 2 That's insane.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm not bragging. I'm like, at all.
Like, how could that have even come out of my mouth? It shows you the,

Speaker 2 I don't know, the naivety I still have probably to this day in some form.

Speaker 1 I know, that was pretty sick. But, well, dude,

Speaker 1 yeah, man. Fucking pump.
Thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. Perfect.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Thanks, bro.

Speaker 2 Thank you. See you, man.
Thank you.