Ep 536 - The Program (feat. James Fox)

Speaker 1 Wow, wow, Wes.

Speaker 2 James Fox, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on, man.

Speaker 1 Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2 You have your new documentary, The Program, I believe.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 it dropped today. Dude, that's dropping right now.

Speaker 2 How about the timing, dude? You couldn't have planned that better with the goddamn fucking...

Speaker 1 I literally have an Air Force colonel text me and he goes, so what's up with the promotion? You managed to get a full-on alien invasion on the release of your film.

Speaker 1 How did you coordinate that?

Speaker 2 Hey, man, there's just larger forces at play. So that's all that is.
Yeah, no,

Speaker 1 I welcome it. I mean, you know,

Speaker 1 within reason. Yeah, for sure.
I don't want people to panic. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, dude, here's, I'll, I'll, so to be honest, I was watching the documentary last night and I was, uh, I was just like on the way to a holiday party and I, I just, I got really stoned from a vape pen.

Speaker 2 I haven't been smoking like that. And I was just like launched.
And I started watching your documentary and I got like, I just started bugging out.

Speaker 2 I started thinking about just the vastness of the cosmos and just kind of the, you know, the inevitability of there's got to be some other sort of consciousness or life form out there.

Speaker 2 And it's like, I was bugging. I was like with my wife and I was like, they turn it off.

Speaker 1 I'm freaking out right now.

Speaker 1 At what point did you turn it off when we got to that, the NASA conference or before?

Speaker 2 It was before that, but we were,

Speaker 2 I just started thinking about it because there was all, it was all these like, you know, there's these like Congress meetings and all these people.

Speaker 2 And it was like the, the line that, I don't know if it was from that or someone said it, but it's like, why would these people put their credibility at risk for no reason?

Speaker 1 No, yeah, no. Come on.
There's a, they're there.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's like, and so, you know, just tell us a little bit about the documentary.
How did you get into all that?

Speaker 2 And like, what did you, what kind of like launched you into identifying the UAPs now, not UFOs?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, yeah. So, yeah, UFOs unidentified flying objects.
Then it went to UAP unidentified aerial phenomenon.

Speaker 1 And then it, because they're coming in and out of the oceans as well, they changed it to unidentified anomalous phenomena. That's where we're at right now.

Speaker 2 So, to me, it's like they're just making it harder and harder to say to obscure the truth. That's what I'm coming.
It's like you, you know, unidentified a lot. An alum, I can't even say it.

Speaker 2 So, I'm like, now I'm out of the race.

Speaker 1 You know, and UFOs had a bit of baggage. There was always sort of that knee-jerk reaction when you mention UFO.

Speaker 2 So, I think they wanted to kind of, you know, steer away from that. Yeah, stone the stuff, yeah, get into the UAP stuff.

Speaker 1 And it was really funny. I think it was today or it was last night, Senator Schumer, Senate Majority Leader Schumer, is being like hammered in the press.

Speaker 1 I don't don't know if you've seen it yet or not. And the guy's like, you don't know what it is.
Therefore, it's a UAP.

Speaker 2 You wrote the legislation.

Speaker 1 Don't you remember? Like, he's like, well, we don't know what they are. Therefore, it's a UAP.

Speaker 1 But they want to say they were so blazed when he wrote the legislation.

Speaker 1 They want to say drones because UAP has people freaking out. Charged, yeah.
And it's so funny, too, because they're going.

Speaker 1 Well, we have absolutely no idea what it is, but everyone's fine. Everything's safe.
There's nothing to worry about here. Sure.

Speaker 2 So there are just like tons of drones popping up, and everyone's freaking out because nobody knows who they are.

Speaker 1 I initially,

Speaker 1 you know, on first look, I was like, oh, it sounds, you know, conventional

Speaker 1 because, you know, UAP demonstrated technology that's sort of light years advanced from anything we have.

Speaker 1 But then I started doing a little deeper, deeper dive, and I'm hearing reports that they're evading

Speaker 1 the military, radar, FLIR.

Speaker 1 They go dark.

Speaker 1 You know, they really have a loiter time of hours and hours and hours.

Speaker 1 Then the Coast Guard reported being followed over the ocean. I mean, it just

Speaker 1 something weird is going on. I don't know exactly what it is or who's behind it, but people are scratching their heads.

Speaker 2 That would be crazy if it truly was like an alien consciousness, but this was their like mall kiosk of them like flying around holiday toys and then being like, check this out.

Speaker 2 Everyone's freaking watching.

Speaker 1 Watch us freak out the humans.

Speaker 1 look at them look at him run

Speaker 2 so so just take us through you don't have to obviously give the whole documentary away but it's like how did you get into that and like how

Speaker 2 like to what depth does this whole phenomenon go because like you were saying that when i grew up it was just like aliens and you'd get a poster with black lights of an alien being like peace man right but yeah the more you hear about it like it just came out of nowhere like the government i feel like a couple years ago was like oh by the way aliens are probably real And everyone was just like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 What are you guys doing right now, right now?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I mean, so how that came about,

Speaker 1 I'll back up a little bit and tell you how I got into it. And

Speaker 1 I had a father who was a journalist. He was a quadriplegic with MS.

Speaker 1 And so at a very early age, I was traveling around the world with him because I was his legs. I was his chauffeur.
I was his nurse, his secretary. You know, we just traveled together.

Speaker 1 He was a mainstream journalist. We interviewed people like Stephen Hawking and race car legend Dan Gurney and just did a lot of cool stuff together.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so I had a sneak preview into journalism pretty early on in my life through my dad.

Speaker 1 And then I had a high school buddy of mine that when we graduated, we were 18 and we flew to Europe and we bought a used car, Renee Harris, and we bought a used car, drove from London down to Portugal.

Speaker 1 We were really close, man. We were like brothers.
And then we parted ways for like a year or two as things done. He had different things going on, whatever.
And then I, you know, reunited with him.

Speaker 1 And he was suddenly into this whole UFO thing. And I was like, oh, God, Renee, man.
Like, I remember thinking, I'm going to have to cut my best friend loose. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, this is really unfortunate, you know? And

Speaker 1 he was talking about Roswell and UFO crash and alien bodies. And I honestly thought he'd lost his mind.
I mean, I really did. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What year was this roughly?

Speaker 1 90, probably 93. Yeah.
90, 94, 93.

Speaker 2 You were looked at as crazy.

Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 And so anyway, I go, I was, I was apprenticing at a video production company and I went into work

Speaker 1 and I was telling my buddy Richard Van Sickle about it and I had really looked up to he was 10 years my senior and really professional great guy and I was like oh man and my really good friend has like suddenly gone off on the deep end he's into UFOs and aliens and you up and spaceships that crashed and Roswell and my buddy Richard looks at me he goes you didn't know about Roswell I was like how would I know about Roswell no I don't know about Roswell how would I know about Roswell he goes well the government actually admitted that they did recover a fly really he goes yeah check it out like they actually admitted it and then the very people that were involved in the cover-up came forward on camera before they died saying it was original that the original press release was correct so i was like oh my gosh i started looking into it

Speaker 1 went to a few conferences met a few military guys and i was like god maybe there's something going on here

Speaker 1 and so i told my dad i was like you know i was doing video production at the time and i was doing psas and things of that sort and uh i was like i think i'm gonna do a documentary on ufos and my dad was like oh my god please son don't do that like there's he literally said it's a dead-end streak.

Speaker 1 There's nothing to it. You're wasting your life.
Please. And not only did he was begging me, he had all of my other members because I was born in England of the family writing me letters saying,

Speaker 1 your dad is very concerned about you.

Speaker 2 Oh, you were getting like English letters about it.

Speaker 1 Don't do it. I don't know.

Speaker 2 That'd be a tough. It's like a scold, like a scolding.

Speaker 2 I'm reading Bertrand Russell's autobiography, and there's a lot of like English letters, and they're, they're pretty, it'll get you, man.

Speaker 1 Anyway, stinging letter. Yeah, no,

Speaker 1 um, my grandmother used to call me a rap scallion, you hooligan, you skiver,

Speaker 1 franking into the house at all. I was at the boarding.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she was your whole family.

Speaker 1 So my family's like, please reconsider your dad's very concerned, you know, and I just was like, well, you know, I'm, of course, being a tourist, I'm a bit stubborn. And I just went all in.

Speaker 1 And I think it took me about four years. And I, uh, and I was at the end of it, I was like, I'm never doing another UFO dock ever again.
But I sold it to Discovery Channel.

Speaker 1 It aired on Learning Channel. And I kind of got the last laugh.
And then I got invited to Russia.

Speaker 1 And because I had been, I got invited to Russia, which I ended up going in the late 90s and meeting with generals and cosmonaut Pavel Popovich.

Speaker 1 And then I got an invitation to meet with Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper because I've been trying to get interviews with him on my first dock.

Speaker 1 And then all of a sudden I was like, well, I guess I'm doing another dock because I got all these amazing interviews and I went to Russia and stuff. And so I did another one.

Speaker 1 And that one was called Out of the Blue. And that took me five years.

Speaker 1 Okay. And I finished that and I said, never again.

Speaker 1 I remember my partner who was in a fetal position crying. And his wife's like, you're killing my husband.
Like, stop. What was wrong with him?

Speaker 2 They were pushing each other so hard,

Speaker 1 so hard to do a good doc, right? It's like you just get to the end. I mean, I'd been there myself.
I just, you're, you're broken. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so I was like, well, I guess the documentary is done because I didn't really feel like it was where it needed to be. But we were all out of steam.
We were out of money.

Speaker 1 I pushed my partner to the brink of death, and his wife was screaming at me, like you know.

Speaker 1 So I was like, All right, so then we sold that to NBC Universal and it aired as a two-hour special on the sci-fi channel.

Speaker 1 And then three years later, I owned the rights again, and I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick this back up and make it to the film I always wanted it to be.

Speaker 1 So I spent a couple more years on Out of the Blue, and I released that as a director's cut.

Speaker 1 And in the process of that, I broke a big story with the governor of Arizona, Fife Simonton, who there's a very famous Phoenix Lights case that happened in February, sorry, March 13th, 1997.

Speaker 1 And the governor poo-pooed it at the time. And then 10 years later, I met up with him.
It's like, why'd you poo-poo it? You had one of your aides dressed up as an alien.

Speaker 1 He came and mocked the whole thing. And all your, you know, constituents were upset.
And he admitted that he saw it too. So then that happened and exploded in the headlights.

Speaker 2 What did he see? Oh, he saw the lights.

Speaker 1 Oh, he saw a craft. He saw a big, all-connected boomerang shape.
He said it must have been a mile from wing tip to wing across because it was so big.

Speaker 2 Why did he poo-poo it, though?

Speaker 1 He said just, well, he said that

Speaker 1 there was overwhelming

Speaker 1 fear, like people were just freaking out.

Speaker 1 He contacted the local Air Force Base, Luca Air Force Base. He contacted the Pentagon, and they all shrugged their shoulders, according to him, and said, we don't know what the hell that thing was.

Speaker 1 What? So anyway, I broke that story, and then I got... I got, I hope you don't mind I'm giving you a longer version of this.
I like it, dude. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 so i wrote that story and it catapulted me into the limelight i mean we were on all the talk shows larry king live with the governor and i thought gosh this would be a really good time to capitalize on this attention because media coverage is very fleeting and i you know it only happens you're lucky if it happens once in a lifetime so i was like hey let me capitalize on this and let me do an event at the national press club

Speaker 1 And so I did with my friend Leslie Kane. And it was 2007.
And we flew in 14 military and government officials from seven countries and held an event at the National Press Club.

Speaker 1 And I shot the whole thing on HD. And then I ended up making a movie about that, which I sold to AE called I Know What I Saw.
And it was a two-hour history channel special.

Speaker 1 So then I was just like, I'm done with UFOs. Like, I've just, I'm done.
Yeah. And I, uh, one of the things I've learned is never say never because I've said that so many times in the past.

Speaker 1 But then I stepped away from it after a little while. Excuse me.
I did a film on the BP oil spill

Speaker 1 in 2010.

Speaker 1 Has that ever gotten cleaned up?

Speaker 2 Are the waters good now from that?

Speaker 1 I think I don't know what they're going to, if they're going to realize the long-term environmental impacts because they were pumping Correxit 5,000 feet down into the oil, trying to keep it from surfacing because they get fined for all the surface oil.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? They hide it with the Correxit, which they'd never done sub-sea injection before. So they did that.

Speaker 2 They just blanket it down on the bottom.

Speaker 1 They dumped more Correxit into the Gulf ever before, more than they'd ever done anywhere. It was a huge lab test in the Gulf.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 I've been personally boycotting BP forever since that.

Speaker 1 So I

Speaker 1 got it. Okay, there's only two times where I've almost been killed.
I've been threatened to be killed in all my filmmaking years. One of them was when I did the BP oil spill film.

Speaker 1 There was a fisherman. He was head of fisheries for a number of different states.

Speaker 1 And he met with me secretly and he was giving me photographs of the fish impact that it was having on these species from the correct sit in the oil.

Speaker 1 They had like cysts and boils and, oh, just disgusting. He gave me these photographs and he goes,

Speaker 1 you reveal my identity, boy, I'm going to hunt you down and slit your throat. Do we have an understanding? I said, yes, sir, we do.
And he wasn't kidding.

Speaker 1 He was like, he goes, because I run the fisheries. I'm shooting myself in the foot along with a lot of other people, but I can't, in good conscience, let the people

Speaker 1 eat this stuff not knowing what's going on. Like turn the big lab experiment.
The other time I almost got shot in the face is when I was making Moment of Contact.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you ever saw that film. It's about a UFO crash in Brazil.
I was there with my buddy Marco Leal for like 12 years on and off, and I made a film called Moment of Contact.

Speaker 1 It was released in 2022.

Speaker 1 Yeah, late 2022.

Speaker 1 And we tracked down a guy who'd been hiding for 26 years who allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien. I know it sounds nuts.
I'm with you.

Speaker 2 Explain that. I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 It was a UFO crash that took place in 1996 in Vargina, Brazil.

Speaker 1 I had been looking into it for 12 years. I didn't believe it when I first heard about it.
In fact, I was making my first UFO documentary,

Speaker 1 actually my second UFO documentary out of the blue when I heard about the crash. It happened in 96.
I was making it in like 99, 2000. It's when I started.

Speaker 1 I heard about it, but I was like, that's impossible. They don't have a UFO crash and live aliens walking through the town.
No way.

Speaker 1 So I took 10 years before I even, like almost 10 years before I would even, actually, it was over 10 years before I would even look into it. And then I ended up spending about 12 years.

Speaker 1 But in any case,

Speaker 1 a UFO was spotted in trouble. It was a cylindrical shape, cylindrical shaped object, like a cigar.
It was

Speaker 1 like a aluminum kind of shape, no wings, no visible means of propulsion.

Speaker 1 It had, according to the witnesses that I interviewed, and they're all on camera, it had a gash in the back of it and had sort of a white vapor coming out the backside.

Speaker 1 And it was definitely in trouble because all the people who claimed to have seen it said it was just it was struggling to stay in the air. And then it eventually crashed.

Speaker 1 Two days later in the town of Regina, just a few miles away, people reported these strange creatures. And

Speaker 1 then there were two, according to the authorities and military people, that information that had leaked out and the researchers locally,

Speaker 1 two or three of the creatures were captured. And the second capture was involving a police officer by the name of Marco Cherez and the driver of that car,

Speaker 1 Ed, oh, sorry, Lopes, Eric Lopes. And Eric Charez died within a couple of weeks of touching the creature.
He manhandled it and took it to the local hospital. He got a weird infection and then died.

Speaker 1 Dude, really? Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 Hey,

Speaker 1 no alien music. Sorry about that.

Speaker 1 So, so, so the only other living witness to that second capture was the driver, Eric Lopes, who's also a police officer.

Speaker 2 And he was, oh, so he was just driving the other guy apprehended.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he was actually on duty that night, and they were told him to be on the lookout for something strange, something real strange. They didn't say live aliens or anything like that.

Speaker 1 They'd just be on the lookout. We're looking for something.

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Speaker 1 So he calls his buddy,

Speaker 1 Marco, who was actually off that night, Marco Chariz, and he's like, hey, I got this weird assignment tonight.

Speaker 1 Like they're saying there's something weird, something weird on the loose, or I don't know. You want to come with me? So they team up.
He jumps in the car. Off they go.
They see it.

Speaker 1 It ran across the road in front of them, slammed the brakes on. Marco jumps out of the car, grabs the thing, puts it in the back of the car, takes it to Humanitas Hospital.

Speaker 2 What'd they say it looked like?

Speaker 1 It was brown. You could look it up.
Varginia creature.

Speaker 1 It had a big head, big red eyes.

Speaker 1 It had brown, oily skin, frail,

Speaker 1 weak,

Speaker 1 struggling, suffering. Yeah.
All the witnesses said.

Speaker 1 And then Marco.

Speaker 1 Sharizi had this like oily, greasy, he was like rubbing his body down with rubbing alcohol afterwards. And then he got this infection.
We interviewed the doctors that worked on him.

Speaker 1 He died and they couldn't explain it. They were like, they'd never seen anything like that bacteria ever.
Somehow his body just had no defense against it and he died.

Speaker 1 So the only living witness to that incident, that particular capture, is Eric Lopes.

Speaker 1 So the driver. Yes.
So I got in touch with the, with the, with the mayor. I actually interviewed the mayor of the town, this guy, Vergie, Verge.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he's like, hey, if there's anything I can do to help you guys, I believe this happened. I want to get the story out.
I think the world needs to know. I was like, yeah, there's something you could do.

Speaker 1 Could you help me locate this guy, Eric Lopes? He's been MIA for 26 years. And he was apparently driving the car.
So we go to his house,

Speaker 1 really spooky, right? The guy's off the beaten path. Get to his house, and

Speaker 1 oh, you got, yeah, that's the creature. That's Jesus, man.
Yep, that's it. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 Oh, fuck. Yep.
That was that was witnessed in broad daylight by three girls,

Speaker 1 Valkyria, Liliani, and Katia. Two of them were sisters.
Broad daylight. They got within 10 feet of that creature in broad daylight.
Damn. Yeah, it was crazy.

Speaker 1 So anyway, we got to Eric Lopes' house, and he

Speaker 1 I don't speak Portuguese, but he was like apparently telling everyone, you know, get the hell out of there or he's going to start spraying bullets. What? And he said it like three or four times.

Speaker 1 And then I looked over at the guy, the translator, and and he looked at me and he was just like this. Eric Lopes was looking out the window right above me.

Speaker 1 And I was looking at his eyes going, God, that guy's seen something. I don't know.
Man, he had looked like he was so burdened with

Speaker 1 something.

Speaker 1 You could see it in his eyes. I remember I'd never looked into someone's eyes that had that profound, like,

Speaker 1 like he was just burdened with something really. Did he look like afraid or he just looked kind of like just he looked like he'd been shouldering something

Speaker 1 so profound, so deep, so so deeply, profoundly disturbing, and that he couldn't share it with anybody. That's what it looked like.

Speaker 1 But anyway, he was confused. But anyway, that was the second time, only, yeah, two times where I actually was like threatened.
He threatened to be shot.

Speaker 2 Okay, wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 He threatened to be shot.

Speaker 2 That's crazy. So you didn't even get to talk to the guy.
He wouldn't talk.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 funny enough, it's really funny, actually, because he said, and you could see it in the movie, when we rolled up, he's like, if you're here to talk about the ET,

Speaker 1 Eric won't talk. And he referred to himself in the third person, which is weird.
And then he was like, Eric's not here. And then it's like, I'm going to start shooting right now, bullets out of here.

Speaker 1 And I kept asking, I didn't know what he was saying. So I kept trying to get a question in, like, to my translator.
And the translator kept looking at me like, dude, just chill, you know?

Speaker 1 And then finally he looked at me like, it's time to go. Like this, that look.
You don't need to speak any language to get that look. It was like, we're leaving now, period.

Speaker 1 And I was like, shit, what's going on? Anyway, so yeah, that was, that was.

Speaker 2 What do you think happened to him? You think he got like inhabited or something?

Speaker 1 Well, just imagine for a moment if he really was the driver that was involved in the capture of a live alien. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm not saying believe it. I don't believe it.
But if it did happen and then your best friend dies. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And now the family and the world wants to know what happened and you can't talk because your life has been threatened. Right.
Yeah. So you have to shoulder that burden for 26 years.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.
So if it happened, you can imagine how disturbing that was. And, you know, he's military intelligent.
So, you know, he's armed to the teeth, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 And I would talk to some other fellow Brazilian UFO researchers, Uber de Jaro Rodriguez, this guy Peccini. And he's like, oh, yeah, back in 26 years ago, we wouldn't go near Glopes.

Speaker 1 I was like, why not? He goes, everybody knew that guy was packing. He was just going to open fire.
I was like, well, now you guys tell me. Jesus Christ, I went to the guy's house.

Speaker 1 I probably almost got shot in the face.

Speaker 1 That would have sucked so bad. That would have been a real buber.

Speaker 2 Oh, that would have sucked. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So anyway. So coming off the heels of that,

Speaker 1 I,

Speaker 1 you know, because I did, I did a film called The Phenomenon, right? Which covers covers the phenomenon from the 40s up to relatively modern day 2017 2020 whatever yeah

Speaker 1 and then I naturally the natural progression would have been to go on from the phenomenon to the program which is out now but I had unfinished business with this alleged UFO crash case and so I went back to Brazil like a fifth time and I filmed moment of contact right and then at the very end of it all and I totally believed it in fact I remember taking one of the audio guys he lived in Rio de Janeiro and this guy Guy, and he goes, oh, yeah, we heard about that story back 26 years ago.

Speaker 1 Nobody believes it. It's like, you know, kind of like what Roswell, you know,

Speaker 1 then I took him on all the shoots and he was like, holy shit, this happened, you know? And I said, yeah, I wouldn't waste 12 years of my time if I didn't.

Speaker 1 So at the last week or so of filming in Brazil, a flight control officer with the Brazilian military, because flight control,

Speaker 1 fire department, police, they're all connected to the military. He came forward and said, yeah, I saw the United States Air Force playing come in, Atlanta, Campinas, and then said to him.

Speaker 1 What did you say, what?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it was confirmed the United States Air Force was involved with this UFO crash case. Okay.
That the United States Air Force flew in to a place called Campinas. And then from Campinas.
I know, right?

Speaker 1 I know. Barginia and Campinas.
Really doesn't get any better than that.

Speaker 1 Can you believe it?

Speaker 1 I know. know sorry i thought my mind was just making it true i thought you might have known about this case

Speaker 1 talked about

Speaker 2 yeah i didn't i wish i knew i know i know so there's an alien invasion well so so they probably thought it was the best place ever they're like dude we got to go to camp penis

Speaker 1 i know you can't make this stuff up i know okay so what happened so uh so the last time i was there after 12 years of filming on and off uh a guy comes forward and he was with flight control with the brazilian uh government military and he's like yeah i was on duty that night and i saw this is january 20th 1996 and i saw usaf come in and i was like usaf what's oh united states air force usaf flight come in and didn't have authorization to land so he told some folks like i can't i can't let this guy land you need authorization and then a higher up stepped in the room and said let him land yeah so he goes yeah this thing landed then two helicopters one or two helicopters were unloaded and they were flown to Virginia.

Speaker 1 They picked up some stuff, came back to the Campinas, loaded on the plane in the United States Air Force plane, back to the United States. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that was when I became aware of the fact that, wow, there probably is a crash retrieval program going on. So

Speaker 1 when I started doing the program, the film that's out now,

Speaker 1 it was almost personal for me, right? Because

Speaker 1 I had no idea. Like I was on Joe Rogan talking about moment of contact in April of 2023.
Well, in July of 2023, the highest level Intel officer, David Grush, testified under oath to

Speaker 1 a bipartisan group of lawmakers that there is a crash retrieval program and he found it. Damn.
Yeah. So that's, so, so, so the program kind of covers

Speaker 1 this unprecedented

Speaker 1 push for transparency on what the Intel agencies really know about the phenomenon, right?

Speaker 2 What kicked that off? I was curious about that. Like, if it's, this is my thing.

Speaker 2 If things are like top secret, you have these giant kind of like, you know, mechanisms of power controlling and hiding things. I do find it funny that they're like, you swear you're telling the truth?

Speaker 2 And they're like, that you fucking got me, dude. Yes.
I pinky promise. Like, that is a weird, it's a weird system we still do.
Yeah. Well, it's like, you better tell the truth.

Speaker 1 And we're like, you got me. So, so people think that the government suddenly had an epiphany and decided to be more transparent on the UFO phenomenon.
That's not what happened. Yeah, I doubt that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 What happened was there were a couple of Intel insiders, Christopher Mellon being one of them, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, along with Lou Elizondo and a handful of others, just a small handful, that protested because of excessive secrecy.

Speaker 1 They found a loophole and walked some evidence from the Pentagon out onto the front page of the New York Times. And that happened in December of 2017.

Speaker 1 So they can't put the genie back in the bottle, right? So more people keep coming forward now, more people coming forward. And then Congress started getting wind.
They were having

Speaker 1 behind doors meetings with some of these witnesses. And they were like, ooh,

Speaker 1 there's a there there. Wow.
Then they had the first congressional hearing by a guy named

Speaker 1 Andre Carson, Congressman Andre Carson. That was 2022.
that had a hint of a crash retrieval program that was revealed through a memo, the Davis Wilson memo.

Speaker 1 Then they had congressional hearings in July of 2023, and that's when it was all out. David Grush said, yeah, we have a crash retrieval program.

Speaker 1 And then recently, just a month ago, we had more congressional hearings, which I attended. And Lou Elizondo, who ran ATIP or was one of the members on ATIP, he

Speaker 1 confessed under oath that there is a crash retrieval program.

Speaker 2 So they have been going around and scooping these things up.

Speaker 2 So what do you say to people who are like, it's just super advanced military technology they're hiding from everybody?

Speaker 1 Well, if that's the case, that would be an even bigger story because somebody has kept it secret for over 80 years. So

Speaker 1 wow, okay, that's cool. Yeah, no, I hear you.
These things exhibit a technology that's just so beyond anything that we have in our arsenal.

Speaker 2 And what are the examples of like the technology that we can't really wrap our heads around?

Speaker 1 So you have objects that can hover. without displaying any kind of visible means of propulsion.

Speaker 1 They can accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speeds, no sonic boom, no air disturbance, very little noise.

Speaker 1 Sometimes you'll hear a slight buzzing or humming noise, but that's it within certain proximity, some of the witnesses. And they fly rings around our fastest jets.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, they make a mockery of our fastest jets. I mean, you can just talk to David Fraver about that, 2003, off the coast of San Diego.
So,

Speaker 1 and I think the big secret is they don't know what it is. I mean, they know

Speaker 1 it's engineered, right? They know it's technological, but

Speaker 1 there's a psychic component to it as well.

Speaker 1 So, it would be very difficult for any governing body to come forward and say, hey, ladies and gentlemen, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to our attention that there are structured craft of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity.

Speaker 1 They fly rings around our fastest jets. So we don't know who they are, where they come from.
And if they turn out to be hostile, we have no visible means of defense against them.

Speaker 1 Thank you and good night.

Speaker 2 Yeah, true. That would, everyone would be like, fuck this.
Everyone would be like, no.

Speaker 1 That's why right now they don't know what these drones are. They're calling them drones because drones is a little less scary than UAP, right?

Speaker 1 So they're calling them drones, but they're saying, you have nothing to fear, and yet we don't know what the hell they are.

Speaker 1 So that's a little strange because how could you say what something isn't when you don't know what it is?

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Speaker 2 yeah and it's what's also yeah it is deeply unsettling to be like is you know human beings just have this idea we're kind of like top dog in the universe yeah it does threaten it does threaten i mean i feel kind of weird like what do you think the i have two questions what's the telepathic element you're talking about uh i'll give you an example um

Speaker 1 And there's examples like this that go on for decades. But so David Fraver, the encounter that took place, it's now commonly referred to as the Nimitz case, it was off the coast of San Diego in 2003.

Speaker 1 And he chased this tic-tac-looking object.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it had no wings, no propulsion.

Speaker 1 It could hover. It was hovering right over the ocean.
He could see it down below. There were two military jets that saw it,

Speaker 1 four people that got visual. Then it picked it up on the radar and they chased after it.

Speaker 1 And as they were close, so the plane, the object was down by the, like just above the ocean surface, and it was darting around kind of like this.

Speaker 1 And Fraver said he was going to get a closer look at it at whatever altitude he was. So he started spiraling down to get a look, a closer look at it.
Jesus. And the tic-tac object starts spiraling up.

Speaker 1 So it was mimicking his movement, but backwards. So he's spiraling down, it's spiraling up.
And then he decides to kind of do a maneuver and intercept it, like cut it off. He gets right at it.

Speaker 1 He goes, this is about a quarter of a mile. And he goes, that sounds kind of far away or half a a mile, whatever it is, but in flight, it's very close.

Speaker 1 No rivets, no seams. Like, what is this thing? And then he said it took off.
Like, you just, impossible. Like this, it performed.
It did something that's just not even possible.

Speaker 1 And then it ended up at their,

Speaker 1 it's a strategic Latin lounge that's, that's like

Speaker 1 predetermined before. I'm trying to think of the technical name they use for that.
But in any case, it just showed up right at that exact tactical spot at their Latin lounge.

Speaker 1 It's like, and he said he had like the hair on the back of his neck stand up straight because that was like it. But

Speaker 1 I'm five steps ahead of you guys. Yeah.
I even know where your Latin lounge is. Nice, man.
Yeah. So,

Speaker 1 and again, there's, I could give you example after example. For sure.
Yeah. No, that makes that.

Speaker 1 That's pretty crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So what do you think are like the implications on like day-to-day kind of like human thinking and affairs? Say it's just like it's out. It's proven without

Speaker 2 any sort of doubt or whatever. It's proven that there is like life forms that just dwarf our kind of technology and understanding of the universe.
What do you think that does to human beings?

Speaker 2 You think that's a good or you think that'll like spin people out or maybe make us be a little nicer knowing we have like other life forms watching us?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I think I always felt that it would be a little scary, right? But that's okay.
I mean, you know, reality is reality. It's been going on for a long time.

Speaker 1 It doesn't seem to be here to hurt us because

Speaker 1 others might argue with me on that point, but for the most part, seems to be a fairly benign. I mean, there are other aspects of the phenomenon that one might argue is a little scary, but whatever.

Speaker 1 That's a whole other,

Speaker 1 sorry, I'm not even going to cut you off my nose.

Speaker 2 I would argue if they're that advanced, there's a huge chance they're not kind of like predacious and like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Because it'd be hard to be that advanced while you're still dealing with kind of like those more animal aggression, like aggressive kind of instincts. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You think it would like you would employ like human beings. Like there's, if we don't kind of get our kind of aggressive instincts under control, we might exactly, we might like blow ourselves up.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's really funny, actually.
And

Speaker 1 to your point, I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas, who was a launch control officer during the height of the Cold War. And I think he was in charge of minimum missiles, but they were nuclear arms.

Speaker 1 And I'm not sure if it was Minot or anyways, one of these bases housing nuclear weapons. And objects were seen over the base, documented over the base.
And then all of their...

Speaker 1 vast majority of nuclear weapons went into a no-go situation. They were just shut off and they're all independently controlled.
I reported about it in my film, The Phenomenon.

Speaker 1 And I talked to Salas about this. And it was funny.

Speaker 1 I could see why he was a launch control officer because he's got this demeanor where he's just like super mellow and calm and just measured and just doesn't, you know, he's like, well, James, the message I got from that is almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby.

Speaker 1 Maybe you shouldn't be playing with these things.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I was like, wow, never thought of it that way.
Wow.

Speaker 2 I never heard of that. So they all just deactivated.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, there's 50 cases in my film, The Phenomenon.
I literally did a deep dive in there with the help of this guy, Robert Aces, who wrote the book on it.

Speaker 1 And yeah, you'll hear officer after officer after officer about incursions over military bases. They seem to be like, like some people would put it, like

Speaker 1 a moth to a flame. Like anytime there's nukes around,

Speaker 1 the phenomenon kind of just comes around to check it out. Yeah.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Damn, that's crazy. Yeah, Senator Harry Reid, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, gave me an interview.
I think it was like 2019.

Speaker 1 And he was the one that started this,

Speaker 1 one of the key people that started this

Speaker 1 UFO investigation, ATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. Before that, it was AUSAP.
But in any case, I asked him, it went on for 10 years. It was never meant to go public.

Speaker 1 Again, people had protested from the inside from excessive secrecy and walked some evidence out of the Pentagon onto the front page of the New York Times. And it went on for 10 years.

Speaker 1 It was found out in like 2017, at the end of 2017. It started around 20, sorry, 2008, 2007, something like that.

Speaker 1 And I said, what was some of the more astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you learned during that 10-year Pentagon investigation? And he goes, right away, just like that.

Speaker 1 He goes, they're interested in our nukes. And I was like, oh, whoa, I'd heard about that a little bit.
So we did a whole segment on it within the phenomenon of, yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 That's pretty crazy. Yeah.
And there are a lot of incursions going on military bases all over the place still. So I don't know.
I think it's a far more complex issue than one might, you know, gather.

Speaker 2 Yeah, true.

Speaker 1 It just doesn't have like one easy explanation. I've been doing this 30 years and I don't know what the hell's going on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's one of those things that does. I wish I did.

Speaker 2 It kind of dwarts the perceived power of governments where you're like, you know, the United States,

Speaker 2 we have all these missiles or like the, you know, cutting edge of technology. And then you see something that's so much more advanced if it, you know, if it's really buzzing around.

Speaker 2 Kind of like the government. It makes the government less authoritative almost.
So you're kind of like, all right, dude.

Speaker 1 I thought it would have a unifying effect on all of humanity, quite honestly. I mean, if there's an outside force, I mean, Reagan had talked about it, but he used more of his threat.

Speaker 1 But if you have something that's, I think it would unify us. Yeah.
Excuse me. I remember interviewing Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and he was Apollo 14, six man to walk on the moon.
And

Speaker 1 he said on the way to the moon, and he was so caught up in all the data. And he might as well have been a simulator.
But coming back,

Speaker 1 he got to kind of really just look at the earth and look at what he and really feel what he was doing. He was hurling through this little tin can through the vastness of space and darkness.

Speaker 1 And he goes, You don't know dark until you've been into space. Like, it's just a vacuum out there.

Speaker 1 And he goes, I looked at Earth and I watched it slowly getting bigger and bigger, and all those invisible lines.

Speaker 1 I didn't see any territories, and I was imagining all the wars that were taking place and all this.

Speaker 1 And he really felt, not just saw, but felt like humankind as one, one race, one, you know what I mean? One people kind of thing. And I think that this reality will help accelerate that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 I think it's a good thing, but you get a lot of people who start being like, they're trying to use this to start up a new world government and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 And it's like, I don't think they have control of it. I really don't.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't. Yeah.
I would, I would argue.

Speaker 1 Someone who's investigated all around the world for 30 years.

Speaker 2 There's no way.

Speaker 1 I don't think that we're. No, I think that they're doing what they're doing.

Speaker 2 True.

Speaker 2 And it's one of those things where it's like, if they're, just say, look for, you know, argument's sake, say there were some, just human beings who are so powerful, they were engineering these kind of crafts.

Speaker 2 It's like, well, guess what? They're going to do whatever they want. You know, whatever.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I think that's awesome, man. I think it's pretty cool.
And I think it is a, I don't know. I think it's good for people to have kind of shocks to their system.

Speaker 2 And I think the UAP kind of like reacts to life forms. There's a good shock to the system in a way.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you look at the program, you'll see,

Speaker 1 refreshingly, you'll see a bipartisan effort. You'll see Democrats and Republicans working together, being civil and like really trying to get to the bottom of it.
And I love that

Speaker 1 about that.

Speaker 1 It's uniting Congress and our elected officials, no question about it. You're looking at AOC with Tim Burchett being really kind to each other and calling each other colleagues.
And

Speaker 1 it's very,

Speaker 1 I love that. I think we need more of it.

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Yeah, yeah, because you can get so into your like hometown versus a country. You know, you're like ants on a hill.
You're like, this is this huge place.

Speaker 1 Then, yeah, you get a cosmic perspective and you're like wow yeah that's right nothing they should send all politicians into space they should that'd be awesome or just give them a ton of lsd

Speaker 1 there you go either or sure

Speaker 1 is it possible that this is and

Speaker 1 it's us but an ancient civilization like if elon musk or bill gates or something happened now they would just go into their bunkers and they have huge bunkers and their civilization would grow for thousands of years and everybody else on top we decelerate and we become back the cavemen and now 12 000 years later they're finally coming to the surface again but it's us just a more advanced civilization that was able to keep going i i've heard that theory and one of the things that i'm coming to terms with is that all options are on the table as far as i'm concerned i mean i've heard interdimensional i've heard future uh coming back from the future i've heard

Speaker 1 interplanetary i've heard they're right here all the time all along down in our oceans and in you know specific locations around the world. And I can't say no to any of them.

Speaker 1 I have to keep all options on the table. And I one at one point jokingly said, I don't have a huge universe.
I said, you know, maybe it's all the above. Maybe it's not just one race.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's a number of different things. That's one of the reasons why I showed some incredible Hubble telescope photography from space and galaxies.
And

Speaker 1 one photograph in particular from NASA is,

Speaker 1 they look like almost stars. There's so many of them.
But then

Speaker 1 you realize they're not stars. You're looking at galaxies.
And each one of those galaxies has like 400 billion stars, right?

Speaker 1 And it's like, and you're looking at all these pinpoints of light, and those are all galaxies. And you're thinking, you've got to be kidding me.
That's just incomprehensibly big, right?

Speaker 1 It's like, and we're just like, there's more stars,

Speaker 1 there's 10,000 times more

Speaker 1 stars than there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world.

Speaker 1 It's like 10,000 times.

Speaker 2 See, you can't even wrap your head.

Speaker 1 And it's getting bigger by the day. And now they're talking about multiverses and stuff.
It's like, God only knows, man. Like, sometimes it's like my mind hurts thinking about it.

Speaker 1 Like, I just, I don't know, man. Sometimes when I think about the vastness and like how it keeps going on, and if it doesn't last, if it doesn't, if it's not infinite,

Speaker 2 then where does it stop? This is the thing that fucks me up.

Speaker 2 It has to be infinite because if it were to stop, it could only stop by a sort of border there'd have to be something on the other edge of the border so it has to be by definition infinite so insane it the universe really rule is like ruled by like dream logic that's the only place a thing can be infinite and not infinite is in a dream it don't get me started i saw i was freaking out uber last night it blows my mind seriously i'm just like

Speaker 2 But you know what I'm talking about, though? It has to be infinite because if it were finite, there'd be a bordering edge and there'd have to be some physical thing on the...

Speaker 2 You can't have something that borders that doesn't have another side of it.

Speaker 1 So it can't be bored it has to be infinite otherwise i i remember one time thinking to myself like i have no idea why i'm here what what the hell's going on i do that every time i don't think we're here to hate each other yeah

Speaker 1 that does that's one thing i feel like you know come on yeah

Speaker 2 it doesn't feel good in your body that's what i've been doing it's like people say like you know oh you know this is this is crazy it's all airy fairy talk it's like well dude if you like just assume we're these kind of like struggling animals with nothing other than animal instincts and our whole sense of consciousness is like, you know, just wafting off these.

Speaker 2 It's just like this nonsense that's wafting off our instincts. It's like to take that worldview hurts.
It literally hurts your body. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's like, yeah, I agree with you, but I think if you kind of open yourself up to like the kind of cosmic scale, becoming basically a cosmic patriot rather than your country or what, you know, people will be bad at me for that.

Speaker 2 Like, but you can like your country, but also be like, I'm also a citizen of the universe. I have to open yourself up to that scale.
It feels good.

Speaker 1 I remember asking Edgar Mitchell.

Speaker 1 It was really funny because we're in the middle of talking about UFOs and he like kind of grew up in roswell excuse me the surrounding areas and so he knew all the ranchers from back in the late 40s early 50s actually even earlier than that and uh i was like god i'm so sorry to ask this question of you because i'm sure you get asked this all the time what was it like to go to the moon you know and he's like well james uh if you'd like i'll i'll tell you you know and and so I got such a detailed description of what it was like right down to when they landed on the lunar surface.

Speaker 1 They were hearing these macrometeorite meteorites pelting the skin of their craft. And they've been up basically for three days.
And NASA's like, you guys need to go to sleep.

Speaker 1 And they were like, oh, no, man, I want to.

Speaker 1 They tried to go to sleep. And then they were too excited.
They were like, told NASA,

Speaker 1 we're overriding your recommendations.

Speaker 1 We're putting our suits on. We're going.

Speaker 2 Wait, so they were up for three days straight and they were just like...

Speaker 1 Yeah, and they didn't, they couldn't sleep. They were on the lunar surface.
And he said they put their suits on and they went out there. And he's walking around on the lunar surface.

Speaker 1 And he says he sees off in the distance this blue marble. I love sharing this story because it's so crazy.
This blue marble suddenly rises. It was an earth rise from the moon.

Speaker 1 And he said, there it was, this oasis of life in suspended in the darkness of space, the vacuum of space, such a hostile environment around it, right? And there it rose.

Speaker 1 And he had these big gloves on. And he put up one hand and he blocked out the entire earth, right, from the lunar surface.

Speaker 1 And he's like, all that I know, all that I've learned, all the borders, all the people, and I'm blocking it out with one hand. Damn.
Yeah, isn't that cool?

Speaker 2 Wait, so the earth rises when you're on the moon?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was earthwise. Yeah.
Earthwise. Yeah.
Isn't that crazy? That's so cool. Yeah.
And he's like, it was like a blue marble. Like you said, suspended in a vastness.

Speaker 1 He goes, you don't understand the vacuum of space until you've been there. Like it's dark, it's hostile.
And there's this oasis, this life oasis. And yeah, it's really.

Speaker 2 It does suck. And it sucks to waste it just being

Speaker 1 a fucking miserable dickhead. It's all we got.

Speaker 2 I know, and I'm guilty of that. I can be a miserable dickhead, but it's like, it really is, especially when you look at it.
It's like if you look at the scale, and then you get into like

Speaker 2 the math behind, like, what are the, if they go, all right, it all happened by chance. Well, what is like the mathematical probability of that? And it's, it's, it's like literally,

Speaker 2 if you were a math person, you'd be like, well, yeah, my own math proves that this happening for no reason is so statistically improbable.

Speaker 1 It's crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And they go, well, it's just because the universe is infinite and that anything can happen.

Speaker 1 It's like, okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Yeah, that's cool.
You know, I wonder sometimes if we just like, I used to think back when I first started this, because I was like, I would go into the field.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't just read books or go to conferences. I would actually go to locations and meet with witnesses on UFO sightings all over the place.
And so I knew the phenomenon was real.

Speaker 1 I mean, unless everybody I was talking to, including pilots and FAA officials and civilians and governors, all lying,

Speaker 1 I was like, well, maybe, you know, it's such a big universe, you know, the

Speaker 1 galaxy, whatever, the Milky Way, we probably just get periodic visitation for whatever reason. The government's decided to cover it up.
That's what I thought.

Speaker 1 But now, all these years later, I'm like, oh my gosh, now I feel like I know less today than I did when I started.

Speaker 1 Because like you said, like, could it be time travelers? Yes, it could. Could it be interdimensional? Yes, it could.
Could it be interplanetary? Sure could. Why not? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, Tucker Carlson now is like.

Speaker 2 He's freaked out. He's like, and he's like big on the interdimensional thing.

Speaker 1 I'm done.

Speaker 2 Yeah. He's, he's like out of nowhere.
He tapped out. He got off a Fox and he was just, next thing you know, is like, there's interdimensional entities, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And everyone's like, what the fuck, dude?

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, he tapped out.

Speaker 2 What do you mean he tapped out?

Speaker 1 He's not doing the UAP anymore.

Speaker 2 He just doesn't even want to say what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 He learned certain things and he's like, we're done. I'm not doing this.
And it's funny, actually, because

Speaker 1 one of the things that

Speaker 1 Senator Harry Reid said to me was that they were just trying to get some of these senators to look at the data, look at the evidence.

Speaker 1 And they were so dismissive of, they said it's demonic, and I'm not going to engage with that. So because they couldn't explain it or for whatever reason, it was just written off.

Speaker 1 So there's that wing of the, of the elected officials that have looked at it that way.

Speaker 1 I don't know if they're still looking at it that way, but they were like, it's demonic and we don't want anything to do with it. I'm not even going to look at it.
Damn.

Speaker 1 That's what he told me. Yeah.
Yeah. And even people within the Pentagon saying that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 Especially if you're like, you know, an older man, and typically politicians, and I would say, even more so, like military people, a lot of them are sort of kind of like a rigid, kind of like, you know, insulated.

Speaker 2 And like, not like they're, not saying like they're egoic, but it is like they're, they have a very kind of top-down way of thinking. And like stuff like this is like, there's no time for it.

Speaker 1 You know, one of the people in the part of the UIP task force, I'm not sure what year he was involved, but his name is Len Val Logan, great guy.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he goes, you know, it's crazy. He goes,

Speaker 1 we pick up a Russian MIG or something on the radar and it's all hands on deck. And yet, when it doesn't have any markings on it, we can't identify it.
It's like nothing to see here, folks.

Speaker 1 It's like, it's like, he's like, well, how could that be?

Speaker 1 What? Like,

Speaker 1 if it had a Russian flag or a Chinese flag, it would be all hands on deck. But because it doesn't have that, it's flying rings around.
We can't stop it, control it, whatever.

Speaker 1 They just, it's like, nothing to see here, folks.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, that's kind of nuts.
That's what he said. Yeah.
There's got to be some sort of directive. Like I said, if you're military, there's, there's rules for everything.

Speaker 2 So to be like, bad, yeah, we'll get that.

Speaker 1 He's like, how can that be? I was like, that's a great quote. It's one of the quotes at the end of the credit.
I always like to,

Speaker 1 like, when I'm editing a film, I'll get a lot of what I call GMs or golden moments. And I, and I always like, I always paint those, I color those like a gold color.

Speaker 1 And then I, I put them, if I can't find a place for them in the movie, I tuck them aside. in my GM, you know, basket.

Speaker 1 And then at the end of the film, I'll go, oh, God, I really can I squeeze these in somewhere.

Speaker 1 And if I can't squeeze them in, one time I was like, why don't I just sprinkle them throughout the credits? So now I always love doing that. What I'll do is I'll get my little GMs.

Speaker 1 And that moment with Len Val Logan, who's part of the UAP task force, is sprinkled in the credits at the end. So that's awesome.

Speaker 1 If you do watch the program, watch it all the way through the end because there's lots of cool stuff sprinkled throughout the credits. That's awesome, man.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 that is a good idea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Damn, man. So

Speaker 1 we'll wrap this up.

Speaker 2 I think this has been awesome, by the way. Thank you.
Oh, cool. Thanks.

Speaker 2 My question is, so say if somebody, you know, the biggest doubting Thomas or one of the, you know, someone pretty close-minded is like, I don't even want to think about this stuff.

Speaker 2 Do you have like one kind of like silver bullet you'd be like, check this out? Or would you just?

Speaker 1 I would have to say

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 if you watch the program and you still think there's nothing to it, I think that's going to be nearly impossible. I really do.

Speaker 1 Just because of the bipartisan effort, the congressional hearings, people testifying under oath, some of the video photographic cases and radar.

Speaker 1 And look, you know, the DOD is, you know, begrudgingly admitting that the phenomenon is real. They're not lying anymore about that.
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Speaker 1 I mean, they're trying to control how this stuff comes out, but it's happening. It's coming out.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 One can speculate all day long as to where it's coming from and what its

Speaker 1 objective or agenda. That's up for speculation, but the phenomenon is real and it defies a conventional explanation.
Awesome.

Speaker 2 Dude, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Thanks for doing this, man. Of course.
Watch the program. Thank you, James.
Of course. Later on.