Guide To... S2E2 "Law and Order" (December 1, 2009)

This is Audible.

Aristotle once observed, law is order, and good law is good order.

A seemingly simple concept, but the realities of making those good laws and enforcing them have troubled society since time immemorial.

From community service to capital punishment, everyone has a view on how we protect the innocent and punish the guilty.

Is one man's law another man's tyranny?

Is justice available to all?

Does prison work?

Should we lock up lawbreakers and throw away the key, or does that fail to address the root causes of crime?

To discuss these questions and more, I'm joined by Stephen Merchant, award-winning writer and graduate of the University of Warwick.

Hello.

And Carl Pilkinton.

Look at that fucking head.

Right.

So, Carl, law and order.

Not that interested in it, to be honest.

What do you mean?

I've got no interest in law and order whatsoever.

It's not part of my life.

That's the problem.

You keep picking topics that don't buzz me.

Of course they do.

Don't they?

Well, let's talk about this.

Let's talk about this.

You're you're a man quite obsessed with law and order.

Based on what?

Well,

law and order is basically to protect the innocent, isn't it?

I mean, when we think of law and order, we usually think of crime and punishment, but it's all about protect our person.

We have the right to walk the streets without getting mugged.

When someone wrongs us, we want justice.

It's fundamental.

And you do.

You were sitting in your old flat in London, phoning me every day that you wanted to go downstairs and smack their heads in for being late and shouting around and being drunk, And you could hear it.

You wanted some justice.

Yeah, but nothing would have happened if I called someone up and said there's people doing noise pollution.

Even though there's a law for noise pollution now, it's not really taken seriously, is it?

So you are.

See, but you are concerned with law and order.

You wanted your rights, and you ended up moving.

He's moved here now.

He's moved to lovely Sunny Hampstead, just down the road from us.

So you're having a better life.

So I shouldn't have to move because of some noisy people.

No, you shouldn't.

But I'm saying, you were strong.

I don't cares, though.

And you wanted justice, but you thought you couldn't get justice, so you moved away.

Yeah, so I dealt with it in my way.

Yeah.

I hated them.

Right.

Because they didn't care about anyone else.

Exactly.

But the police wouldn't get involved.

There's other people who live around there who had to put up with it.

No one cared.

So what did it feel like every night when you were trying to watch tele and it's hot and you've got the window open or?

Yeah, you could just hear stuff and other you know, it's it's that thing of you get a lot of tourists in London, so they're talking.

It's not even as if you can listen in to what they're saying and have a have a view on their opinion because if you're not

entertaining for you?

Well, yeah, because if you can hear what people are saying, you go,

switch my tele off.

Oh, you're going to talk.

I don't want to hear anyone talking.

I'll tell you what, I really feel sorry for people with like neighbours from hell.

Because it's,

I mean, you know, I'm not saying it's justified, but I can see why people go mental with someone when they're bullied or, you know, constantly harassed and no one cares.

And when you can't go to the police, you can't go to the police and go, there's a work next door, he's got his television, he's always pissed, he's shouting about, if you don't do something, I'm going to go around there and crack his editing.

You're the be the one that.

But isn't it your own fault for living in central London?

Well, not really, because it wasn't always like that.

I'd been there years, and then all of a sudden, you know, good fellows turn up, they sat down there making a racket.

What can you say to them?

You call down, they can't hear the phone ringing.

Could I just say the good fellows wasn't a pizza joint?

He called the loud people out because he thought they were gangsters because they did what they wanted and sat outside.

So,

but it's louder, I think it is louder abroad than it is here.

Whenever I go away on holiday, I always notice that it's always a couple of decibels higher.

Really?

Always

like the sound of bird noises and that are louder abroad because they're trying to get a knot above the noise of the noisy people.

No, that's not true.

Yeah, when I was in where was I

Menorca or something,

it was like lying there.

If it wasn't a noisy local, it was the people in the villa next door.

If it's not not them, they suddenly collected the bottles from the bottle bank.

That's a nice noise when you're just relaxing.

The bottle bank.

Pop that there where the villa is.

So that was a racket.

There was always something, there was just so much noise.

Animals, creatures, girls.

You can't escape it.

It's the one thing you can't escape noise.

Your ears never turn off.

They're always there.

But I've told you before, wear earplugs if you have to.

I don't like it.

But he doesn't like it.

He says he can hear the sound of his own heart.

Well, there's always a sound.

Like your eyes, you can close them.

My eyes close all the time.

When

I look at them,

but if I don't like the look of something, they close before even I've thought about if I want to see it or not.

What do you mean exactly?

I just mean if I see something on the telly or like one of those casualty programmes or something,

it's like my eyes know that I'm not going to like the look of it.

But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, they close

my ears, they seem to be interested in everything,

even though I'm not.

you can't close your ears.

You can't.

That's what I'm saying.

Exactly, yeah.

You can never close your eyes.

So that's why I like the idea that your eyes are closing when you were.

Oh, I was watching that.

Yeah, you're doing eyes.

Have your eyes ever closed something that you're going to do?

No, they're not going to get it right.

Your eyes aren't making any decisions.

You're making decisions.

You turn away because you don't like seeing somebody.

You don't turn away, and then you're going, what was that?

And your eyes are going, you don't want to know.

You do not know what I know.

I'm just saying, anyway.

Lovely paratits here.

Oh,

I just mean

noise pollution, it's the it's the one thing you can't escape.

It seems to me from what you've said so far is that these things happen to you and you feel wronged, but you either want to close your eyes and ears so you can't tell it's happening, but it's carrying on, or move away from it, so you're not a victim anymore, but it's carrying on.

But the thing about law and order is you don't have to take it, you don't have to walk away, you can do something about it, you can combat being wronged.

And I suppose we associate that with justice.

It's not just punishment or retribution, it's justice.

You want to know that you're valued.

You know, well, this is a big issue, isn't it, Rick?

Is one life more important than another?

If you've transgressed in a terrible way,

you've murdered, raped, whatever, and I say I'm going to put you to death because you are

you do not belong in this society, you are

too transgressive.

Why is that a morally wrong thing to do?

Well this is an interesting argument, isn't it?

Whether capital punishment

I don't agree with execution, state execution of someone, whatever they've done, for many reasons, but the main one is

I don't think you can have a state that shows that sort of violence against an individual, whatever they've done, and expect people

to accept the very code and morality of treating people equally and not showing violence towards them.

Carl, where does you stand on the tricky issue of capital punishment?

You've given it some serious thought, I imagine.

Um

so what you're asking me, like, should he be should he should he be on death row?

Well, should should someone flip the switch, send him to his death in the electric chair?

Um

yeah.

That was was the

least considered.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I saw a little bit of flicker behind the eyes.

I don't know what, well, just take us through the mental process that you arrived at the yes with there.

So you know, I remember because there was quite a brief gap there.

I just was thinking,

it's not a nice job if you're working there and you've got to flick the switch.

Right.

But I was wondering if it's possible to just do it so it's linked up to someone's switch.

What do you mean?

When they put the lights on or something.

So it's like sometime tonight when the sun goes down and people start putting the lights on in their house, it could happen.

But we don't know what household they might be away on holiday.

So you might get an extra two weeks.

But at least that way.

Because for me, the worst thing.

When did you say that?

This is not.

The question I asked was whether we were talking about the morality of whether you put someone to death.

But he was thinking about it.

But he was thinking about literally the practicality of flipping the switch.

Well, no, I think that you're.

Aren't you talking about the integrity of the person who knows or knows not that they've put someone to death, like a firing squad, like what they used to do sometimes in the First World War when

they had six riflemen, but

five of them

had a and no one knew if they were the person that killed them.

Yeah.

So, but my point is, you do agree that someone should be put to death for a terrible crime, do you?

You've got to have something there to stop them people who don't care, haven't you?

Nature's done it in a way with bees.

They've gone, we've given you a weapon, but if you use it, you die.

And that's like the bee.

So they're worried they're going to go, oh, that's what we do.

We do, weren't we?

We have people saying, one, you can't do that.

That's step one.

Here's the law.

Don't do it.

There's a lot of people who go, I'm not bothered about the law.

I'm not bothered about annoying people.

Yeah, that's a lot of people.

So for them, at the end of the scale, you've got the chair and you stick the wires on their head and we'll fry your head.

And they go, oh, God, I don't want that.

That doesn't always work, does it, with being put to death?

Because as a deterrent, most of the crimes aren't just crimes of gain with that.

Some of them are crimes of passion, where a deterrent doesn't count because you see red and you go crazy and you're angry and you kill someone.

I think a lot of those crimes, the deterrent isn't relevant.

Things like armed robbery, maybe, where it's a risk.

What can I get versus what am I crime?

Maybe then it might be a deterrent.

But then, of course, if you start to get a capital punishment for crimes that aren't murdering someone, then that thing brings in you might as well murder them because then you've got more chance of getting away with it.

So it's very delicate delicate what you make people be killed for.

You've made a an interesting and reasoned argument there, Rick.

I'm looking forward to hearing the riposte.

Right.

When I was younger

I used to nick Mars bars.

Okay.

Right.

Now, I did that then and uh and I knew that even if I get caught, what's the worst that's going to happen?

Yeah.

It's not going to I'm not going to go to prison over that.

But it was worth nicking because of Mars bar, they were like 45 pence.

Sure.

When you're a kid, you can get a lot of chewing nuts for that.

Chewing nuts?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, they like caramel coding chocolate.

Last ages.

Quite hard.

Oh, I know.

Yeah, you suck the chocolate off and then you've got to chew them until they're.

Yeah, I know, yeah.

No, I could afford them at 10 pence a bag.

They'd last me sort of a morning.

A Mars bar was a proper treat.

There's a lot going on in there.

A lot of chocolate, a lot of caramel.

Yeah.

45 pence.

Yeah.

So to me.

That was like an advert that went wrong just to the end.

They started off good.

They go, this fly's good.

He said, you're going there.

Mars buyers are lot in it.

It's like, oh, good, keep going.

Yeah, it's got a car.

I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's 45 pence, which is too fucking much so fucking nick it.

You're gone.

But when I was younger, that was worth a risk because I knew that I'd be getting something worth 45 pence for free.

You weren't going to get the electric free.

And I wasn't going to get done.

So the stakes

were high, the risk were low.

No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You mean the stakes were high, the risk were low?

I think he's just trying to sound cool.

The stakes weren't high.

The stakes are what can happen to you and the risk.

The stakes and the risk are the same.

The risk is the steak, okay?

Unless you're nicking meat from a butcher's, then the the stakes are high and the risk is low.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but what you meant was

the game was high.

The game was high, the game was high.

Yeah, the risk was low.

But n it's not wasn't it wasn't, was it?

'Cause forty five P isn't a lot unless you're a kid.

It's when you're a a kid.

It is rigid.

Because I was getting fish.

Normally getting caught for nicking a Mars bar's higher when you're a kid.

No, it's not.

Look, you see, most of the time, I didn't want to say which shop it was that I nicked it from, but it's where I did my paper around.

Now, the thing is.

Because you're nicking from your own boss.

Nah, but listen, I used to wake him up.

That's terrible.

No, because I had.

That is terrible.

This is awful.

Hang on, look.

I want to hear it.

No, I want to hear him rationalises because that sweet old man who used to give.

It's not an old man.

I used to go around and wake him up, right?

He hated running that place.

If anything, I'd say I was his best asset.

Not really.

Yeah, because I don't know what I was nicking from him.

He was stealing from him.

I don't know how much he made on papers, but he'd probably go, 45-pre-profit.

Hold on.

They got their papers really early because I got up early.

I used to go around to the workshop.

So I used to go round there, wake him up.

He'd be like, What are you doing round here so early?

Don't know, I'm just hungry.

What?

I'm just hungry for work.

Oh, well, good.

Good boy, Peter.

I'm just going to turn away a minute

while you stand there in front of the confectionery.

I'll turn away now, and I've looked back now, and here's the papers.

And thanks so much, Carl, because you're lovely.

You're an honourable and trustful man.

I can't really afford to be.

I've been betrayed so many times.

I've got you watching no longer with me.

You know, she ran off with Ken.

Yeah.

I mean, at least I've got a friend.

I've got one.

You turn up early.

Oh, God.

It's brilliant.

Oh, and Carl, keep a lookout because some.

Someone's been Nicky Mars.

Yeah,

I know it's not you because I trust you implicitly.

And by the way, Carl, won't you check a Mars bar for free?

Oh, thanks.

No, that never happened.

Right.

So, I'm getting 50 pence a day for delivering papers.

But I needed the energy.

Right.

Now, if I spent my 50p on a Mars bar,

5p profit a day, it's not worth it.

No.

So

help yourself.

I knew I was doing a good job for it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, so help yourself.

That doesn't that that doesn't follow, so help yourself, get another job, leave that job, negotiate a pay rise, not help myself.

That doesn't that doesn't go that's ridiculous.

Where does it stop?

If he works in a nuclear power plant, well they're not paying me much.

Have a look at your bit of uranium.

A lovely little bit of uranium.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a strange analogy, Rick.

Some left straight from a bloke nick and stuff from from where's the power plant he's having to talk to a bit of uranium.

What's he doing with the uranium?

You know, Mars a day and all that, and that's for energy, and so's uranium.

But more energy than a Mars bar.

Yeah.

I never nicked.

I never nicked because I couldn't bear the shame.

Even as a kid, I knew that was shameful.

I want a clear conscience.

I want to go to bed and sleep at night.

And I do, Carl.

I haven't got a restless leg syndrome, more people shouting out my window.

So I sleep at night because I've got a clear conscience.

And that, to me, is what guides me.

Well it's like when I first moved to London and I was travelling when I was living in Oval I was travelling across London all the way to Shepherd's Bush every day that's a big long 45 minute hour long journey and there was there were not barriers at either end in those days so I could get on the tube at one end and get off the other end and no one ever checked my ticket and I was buying tickets every day for months and months and months and it was starting to seem to me weird as oh well no one's ever checking this so of course you know got a little bit lazy maybe I stopped buying tickets occasionally taking the trip back and forth boom boom boom boom boom and then for maybe a month travelled without a ticket.

And then I was coming up, kind of got a bit blase, obviously, coming up in an oval station.

Someone steps up and says, Excuse me, can I see you a ticket?

And that's terrible because when you're in your mid-twenties, it's not like a kid anymore.

I mean, you are an adult, you've made a reasoned decision there.

You can plead ignorance.

So, um,

so I said,

I'm sorry, yeah, do you see a ticket, please?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was looking through, because I had, for some reason, I used to keep a lot of old tickets, and I was looking through, pretending to look for my ticket.

I went, oh, I don't know what's happened to it.

it.

But I did actually, I bought one at Shepherd's Bush.

And they went, okay, if we phone up Shepherd's Bush and there's no evidence of you buying a ticket,

you can go to prison.

I'm going to ask you again, have you got a ticket?

No.

Oh,

how embarrassing.

It was unbelievable.

It's worse.

It's worse.

Well, it's because a demon walking by, and I'm being told off by a woman who is at least a foot and a half shorter than me, wearing a uniform.

And it was so embarrassing.

It was so cripplingly embarrassing.

Can I ask you again if you got a ticket?

No, I haven't.

No.

So you lied?

Yes, I did, yeah.

Okay, we're gonna have to take your details.

But honestly, being told, and that's it, this is the shame.

Maybe it's a good bit of upbringing, unlike Carl, obviously, who's a man who's got no guilty conscience at all about the whole Marsbar incident.

But whereas you and I, Rick, are raised obviously by better parents, and we are, it's been drummed into us, you know.

That's a train journey.

You know, we do feel that guilt, and that's maybe one of the reasons why we don't transgress.

This is an interesting, you know, we talked earlier about the murder thing.

Well, of course, course, there's that sort of idea which has often been used in films.

You know, in a godless universe, and if you do not feel guilt, what's to prevent you from committing a murder?

If you can get away with it, if you could commit a murder, let's say you wanted to, and you could get away with it, there is no one to judge you in a godless universe, and you can live with the guilt.

What's to stop you doing it?

Well, I'd just like to say now, it is a godless universe.

As an atheist, there is no God, and I'm a good person, not because I want to get rewarded for it in heaven, because that's the way I want to live my life in a society that treats people like that.

So a lot of the laws of the land, not just in countries in many countries, are from the Bible.

I mean,

that kicked it off.

I mean, there were laws before, obviously, and there were different gods before this one was invented.

But let's have a look at the Ten Commandments.

I think that lays down most of the

rules of thumb, you know, we've got to go along with them.

They certainly didn't invent those rules of thumb.

I think that

mankind were adhering to most of them before it was handed down.

So let's have a look at them.

There's a website here, a Baptist

Christian website forum,

and this guy,

maybe I shouldn't say his name.

I mean, he's put it up there for public, but I don't want to embarrass him.

He says,

Brethren and Sistern.

What?

Yeah, so

I've learned a word.

Brothers and sisters.

He could have said that, but he's not exactly close to it.

He could have said people.

Could have said people, could have said folks, say folks.

It has come to my attention that not only are many of our members unable to correctly recite all the Ten Commandments, it's probably a big problem.

I don't know, he goes around testing them going, number three,

get out,

go and learn it.

But those who can remember, even a few, invariably get the sequence wrong.

Is that important?

Oh.

Well, it is.

He says, let me set the record straight.

The commandments do not come in a random sequence, with the exception of the seventh commandment, an obvious anomaly.

Why?

Well,

he reckons that thou shalt not commit adultery at number seven should really be sixth in terms of severity.

Let me explain.

The commandments appear in order of severity.

The harsher the punishment, the closer to the top.

I hope this handicolour chart will make the intrinsic beauty of God's word more comprehensible to all.

So this is it.

He's laid it out.

Commandment.

Number one, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Okay?

Alert level, severe.

Punishment, genocide.

Whoa.

Entire cities with men, women, children, and animals must be killed.

So that's a lovely, nice Christian view there.

So if you worship another God

before the right God,

he doesn't name him by name, he just uses the term God.

But there's only one according to this.

Genocide.

Yeah.

Anyone who worships another God, genocide.

Entire cities with men, women, children, and animals must be killed.

I don't know what the animals have ever done, but.

Oh, there is fucking kids.

Yeah, okay, so that's number one.

That's the most severe, worshiping the wrong God.

Sure.

Okay.

Number two, thou shalt not make unto thee any craven image.

Okay, no craven images.

That's, I assume.

So druids, devil worshippers,

anything like that, isn't it?

Well, I think it's also just.

I suppose it's kind of images that mock or degrade the Almighty.

Okay.

Uh similar.

What's the punishment there?

Genocide.

Genocide again.

That's

his favourite there.

Genocide.

Entire cities with men, women, children and animals must be killed.

What worries me is we're a couple of smart guys and we're not entirely sure what that commandment means.

No.

So we could go, but we could accidentally

three.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord

thy God in vain.

Okay.

Okay.

I I assume God made these, did he?

He's used the first three talking about himself here.

Alert level high.

Capital punishment.

Just capital punishment.

No, no, you're just going to be yeah, you're just going to be put to death there, not all your friends and family and dogs.

Leave the budgie.

No.

Number four,

remember the Sabbath day.

Keep it holy.

High.

So alert level high.

Hi, yeah.

Capital punishment.

Death.

Capital punishment again, if you forget the holy day.

Well what what makes me laugh is that sometimes you can be walking along and you go, oh yeah, okay, all right, I'm just going to I keep thinking it's Monday.

You what?

You forgot it's Monday.

No, I just thought that was like, oh,

death.

Number five, honour thy father and thy mother.

High.

Okay, so and if you don't honour your mother,

capital punishment.

A lot of death.

A lot of death

at the moment.

It's so strict.

We haven't even got to thou shalt not kill yet.

And yet he's killed everyone so far.

Wow, jeez.

Now, seven, he's put a number six here.

He's put them out of order, six and seven, because he thinks this is higher.

Thou shalt not commit adultery high capital punishment capital punishment again now the fellow who did this website he uh he's put thou shalt not commit adultery above thou shalt not kill god i did it the other way around

thou shalt not kill but this fellow

i reckon his wife played away right right so he went right i'm putting them in a different order because before let's see number six he's put

thou shalt not kill alert level elevated capital punishment in some cases so if you murder someone you can sometimes be killed.

If you commit adultery always get killed.

So I think he's made that he can have his wife put to death right or he could kill her but maybe get off with it.

That's why he's done that.

Number eight thou shalt not steal guarded excessive fines.

Only in rare cases capital punishment.

Oh just excessive fines.

Yeah excessive.

Number nine thou shalt not bear fault witness to thy neighbour.

So basically lying low.

Despisement and scorn.

Is that the punishment?

Yeah, for lying.

Yeah, despisement and scoring.

Despisement and scoring.

Yeah.

Thou shalt not covet, really.

Don't try and get stuff.

Don't be jealous of stuff and try and get it.

Punishment.

Despisement and scoring.

Despisement and scoring, sure.

I'm just going to go through.

I'm just going to go down these, see which ones

I commit.

Thou shalt have no other God.

I don't have any God, so I haven't broken that one.

Two, craven images.

No, I don't have any craving.

I don't accept there's a God to three, thou shalt not take the name of the Lord.

Again, I don't take his name in vain because I don't believe he exists, so I'm fine there.

Remember the Sabbath, I always remember Sunday.

I can't even remember that, so I haven't done that.

Honour thy father, yet I do that.

Never commit adultery, don't do that.

No, never killed anyone, don't steal, I don't lie, and I don't cover.

So I am an amazing Christian.

Yeah, you're a pretty clean living guy.

Wow, there you go.

Well, whereas, I don't know, Carl, have you ever.

What's your review?

I still

still open like post, that isn't for me.

I was just gonna see that's on there.

That's opening other people's post, alert level, low, punishment, embarrassment, you have to walk along with your trousers round your ankle saying I'm a div

Why do you open like other people's mail?

Uh but it's just it's just a fella called Bruce who uh

he he's the bloke who used to own the flat before me.

And uh

I don't know, I started off and I thought, should I pass it on?

You know, because when people move, it's a lot of messing about tracking down where they've gone.

So I thought, should I just leave them for a bit?

And I collected some for a bit.

And then there was one that sort of said, this is important on the front of it.

So I thought, how important is it?

So I opened it.

Was it important?

Not really, it was from the tattooists.

What did they say?

It was just something.

They said, oh, we use the AIDS knee value.

Can you come in for a little test?

So

I just kind of thought, oh, I'll start opening it, having a look.

And it was weird because, do you know how you get fed up of being yourself?

No, but go on.

I've intrigued, of course.

No, you can just have days where you're like,

what was just going on?

Well, you know, and Bruce Willis, in your case, well, this bloke was Bruce.

So I just go, oh, let's see what, you know, if I was Bruce, would I be happier being him?

Do you know, like I've said to you before, you never know

if you don't feel well well because they can't put you in someone else's body to sort of compare.

No, but most people can just use their imagination.

Yeah, sure.

So I sort of think.

They actually need to physically go into someone else's body to understand this.

Yeah, like a ghost.

Yeah, exactly.

So I think, well,

would I enjoy being Bruce more?

Sure.

And

what have you gleaned from Bruce?

He's got a tattoo, we know that.

There wasn't that much.

He was mainly busy at Christmas.

A lot of Christmas cards, which were good because I didn't want to.

Yeah, oh, yeah.

So you just put up these Christmas cards.

You put up these Christmas cards.

Well, you had Christmas cards hanging in your flat to have a lovely Christmas, Bruce.

Auntie Jean.

That's cruel.

Hang on, isn't it?

Because when you put them on your mantelpiece or your shelf or whatever, you're not looking at them every day.

It's just a picture of Father Christmas.

It doesn't matter who it's to or from.

And why have them up at all?

Well, why not just buy some of them?

You can just buy some blank cards and put them up.

Use them every day.

No, but I have to.

Bruce has got a lot of friends.

Yeah, but

I don't understand.

It was more awkward, right?

Because the bloke downstairs, because I used to always always collect the stuff for Bruce.

I got talking to a bloke who's in the same block and, like, he used to see me picking stuff up for Bruce.

He'd always say, you know, all right, Bruce.

No.

You've never told him that you're not Bruce.

No, no point.

In a pub I used to drink in, the landlord got it into his head that I was Steve, right?

And

he had to call me.

Exactly, yeah, no, this is this before I met you, this was like tw twenty five years ago.

And he called me Steve, and it got to the point I couldn't correct him.

Yeah.

because it would have been embarrassing for him and so after about two years

we were playing cards

and someone said Ricky and he went who's Ricky and I went Ricky and I just went red I went he went what do you mean Ricky I went yeah that's my name he went

he said what do you mean fucking Ricky I went Ricky and I all looked at him what do you want Steve I went I went no it's not Steve he went he said well I've been calling you Steve for two years I went have you?

I'm denying I'd never heard him call me Steve.

Oh, this guy, right?

He.

But hang on, did he, did he?

What happened?

What was the follow up from it?

He's just sort of like he was a bit confused.

And then, and then I think he still called me Steve for a little while, but sometimes it was Ricky, sometimes it was Steve.

It was fine, right?

But this guy, right,

he was a bank robber.

Okay, yeah,

he'd done 17 years in all.

In prison.

In prison, yeah.

And I was sort of I was a bit scared of him, I'm fascinated.

He was he was fine, he was he was done now, he'd gone straight, totally straight, and he was running this pub.

And um

I remember once he'd he'd tell me stories about it and he'd he'd go on about his uh he did it with four people

and um they all did they all did time and he said he said but you wouldn't recognize them now he said he said they are the most respectable people you'd ever see he said yeah they're just uh lovely businessmen highest sophistication and said you you'd never guess right and then one day day he came over to me, it was a busy pub.

He went, Rick, Steve,

he said,

you know, those geezers I did the crime with, the other three.

He said,

they are in the pub here now.

See if you can guess who they are.

He said, you'll never guess who they are.

I looked around.

I saw three blokes in sheepskin coats with tinted hair covered in gold sovereigns and gold necklaces.

And I went, no, ooh, he went, those three, I went, you are joking.

You are fucking joking.

That was his idea of Turtlesburg's game.

They had tinted beards,

but

they looked like fat bee gees covered in gold and sheepskin.

It was unbelievable.

I went, oh, that is, that is a surprise.

That is a surprise.

I thought they were barristers.

Oh, unbelievable.

I was always terrified of being mugged when I first moved to London.

And you remember, Rick, I had a wallet with all my stuff in, and then I took to carrying a fake wallet,

which had some sort of old library cards and DVD cards, you know, Video Shop cards and stuff.

And like, I put a fiver in there, you know.

And then I got really anxious because I thought, what if I hand over my fake wallet and he goes, well, it's a fake wallet.

Okay, then I got to hand over the real wallet, but maybe he also punishes me, you know, takes it out of me because he's angry.

So then I took to carrying a second fake wallet.

So I spent about two months carrying three wallets around, two of which were fake.

Right, and then, do you know the reason I stopped?

Because I thought, what if I give him both fake wallets?

I give him one fake wallet, he opens it, he goes, Well, this is fake wallet, I give him the second fake wallet, now he's going to be twice as angry as he would have been if he only had the one fake wallet.

And then I was thinking, What but what if I do give him the fake wallet?

And then he just starts using the library cards and the video cards, you know, and make you run up a huge fine.

Yeah, I'd be in the same position when he's not giving the money.

Yeah, also, I don't believe you'd ever put a fiver in the fake wallet, he wouldn't be willing to.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a run-in with crime.

I was ripped off

in a big sting operation a few years ago.

Um

I was at home and I was just I was rushing out and uh the phone went and it was my bank and I went, Is that Mr Vase?

I went, Yeah he went, um,

have you recently bought two hundred thousand pounds worth of gold bullion?

And I went, um

I went, Jane, have we have we did bought have we bought two hundred what?

Have we bought two hundred thousand pounds worth of gold bullion?

Of course not.

No

oh, um well someone's uh taken that money out of your bank account, uh fortunately, and uh and they've purchased gold.

And I went, Right, okay.

They went, um, we'd like your permission to get the CID involved.

I went, Well, yeah, I said, Of course.

I said, But hold on, you know it wasn't me then.

Um, so do I get the money back?

And they went, Yeah, all the money will be um

put back into your bank account.

I went, fine.

I said, Yeah, I basically went, yeah, fill your boots.

And they went, um, and can you come down?

I went, oh, yeah, so I arranged the time.

I went down to the bank, there was the CID there, waiting, and And well, it turned out it was sort of an inside job.

Someone who did some sort of random checking of facts.

You know, they phone you up and say, you're happy with the service.

They put down the phone and went, oh, you never go so I spoke to that, Ricky Gervais.

Right, right.

And someone overheard, they were involved, they've got a payoff from Mr.

Bigg somewhere that was out of the country.

So isn't there more.

I mean, you can't just, even if you're working about, you can't just walk off with cash, can you?

A little bit more elaborate.

Yeah, they did a transaction, didn't they?

They okayed the transaction like it was me for these people.

and then these people bought gold with it, and now all they have to do is go and collect the gold.

Now, this is the tricky bit.

So, what they don't know is now the bank know that it's not me collecting it.

So, whoever turns up for the gold, they said they'll probably just be they might even be innocent couriers,

but then we get

the go-betweens or whatever.

And

where is gold bullion kept?

I don't know.

I suppose you

go and get it from

a vault somewhere and uh

and and take it away and take delivery of it.

I don't know if it literally changes hands or not.

So what they need is obviously my passport.

So

they got the people.

So it was going to go to court.

Okay, I didn't have to go to court, but I had to have a meeting with the CID for all the details and take the, you know, it wasn't me and all that.

So

the funny thing was, I'm there with a CID man and I said, well, how did they, how did they think they were going to get away with it?

And they said, well, they turn up with a fake passport of yours, show the idea, and I walk away.

I went, right, okay.

And they said, they get a passport from either a dead man or they steal one and they replace it with your details and your picture.

And the CID man started smirking.

I went, what?

I said,

well,

the picture they used was this one.

And he showed me.

this fake passport and I tell you what, I was laughing.

Then he started chuckling and we laughed for about 10 minutes because because all they did was they cut out the picture on the first series of The Office from the DVD.

So it's a picture of David Brent sitting behind the desk with that little smug look on his face.

That's my passport in this thing.

So, I mean, they might have got caught anyway.

It's nice to know that even such elaborate operations as this, it still comes down to just idiocy, criminal incompetence.

Who was left in charge of getting the photo?

They go, you know, Dave,

you're doing so-and-so-and so, you're Julie, you're on the inside.

Uh, Bertie, can you get a picture?

Yes.

You can get a photograph of Ricky Germais, can you?

Yes.

Right, okay.

What are you going to HMB for?

What are you going to HMB for?

I knew we shouldn't have recruited someone who looks exactly like Bernard Breslau.

It's unnerved me.

Carl, he's been kind.

There's always someone doing well out of me.

There's always someone

if there's a little bit short, we all go around to Pilkington.

But

three or four times a day.

Sometimes I call him up and he goes, Right, the washing machine's broken, they came round, they've done this, right, they couldn't fix it, but they overcome it and charge ninety quid.

I called the bank and said, No, they can't do that.

Turns out they can't do it.

It's like a string of things where you it looks like Carl's handing up money like the end of a comic book.

He goes, That's for the broken window, and there's for my sausages.

It's like a queue of people just taking money off Carl.

Dunno, they're normally alright if I'm face to face with them.

Really?

Yeah, if I can sort of, you know, if I can go in a place, but a lot of stuff now is done on the phone.

Yeah.

You know, it's all phone, isn't it?

'Cause no one's it's it's all over the world where you're speaking to these people.

Yeah, I was talking to someone the other day about the alarm system in the flat.

Called them up, thought it would be good to get this going again.

You know, I have an alarm system, I haven't had one for years.

Might as well use it, it's there.

So I called them up and said, Yeah, there's an alarm system in this flat I've bought.

I want to get it going again.

What's the situation?

So they took a load of details and stuff.

And they said, Right,

what you have to do, it's 400 quid a year.

So, what?

So, 400 quid a year.

I said, What's that for?

He said, If the alarm goes off, we can guarantee that a couple will be there in like a minute and a half.

So, I said, I don't want that.

I'm just happy with the alarm just going off.

I'll give the keys to the neighbour.

No, you can't do that.

You've got to have this this way.

I said, 400.

I said, I thought alarms are meant to stop you being robbed.

Don't understand sarcasm when you're talking to them people.

Yeah, just to get out of your system when you know you've been conned, you just laugh in the face of adversity.

I remember it was a couple of days before Christmas, I was going away, but I had a dripping tap, and it started dripping more.

So there was nothing I could do.

The maintenance people were away, the caretakers were.

I couldn't get in.

And so I called out an emergency plumber.

I knew this was going to cost, but Bloke came round.

Honestly, he made you look smart.

He was like one of those kids who looked like a lumpy child.

He was probably 20, but he just looked like, you know what I mean?

They scaled up a sort of 13-year-old big-faced lad, right?

And he came in and he didn't know how to stop it.

He couldn't unscrew it.

He went, I don't know what to do.

I called my brother.

He's there.

I said, Bob, what can I do?

He said, you could crush the pipe and then get it cut and fixed.

I said, great idea.

So I said to the plumber, I said, Can we crush the pipe?

Oh, yeah, I'll go and get a tour.

We went down the van, came up with this thing, like a fat sort of little pair of pliers.

He couldn't, he wasn't strong enough.

So I went, I had a goal.

I said, well,

we both do it.

So we both put our hands on it and we managed to crush the pipe, flatten the pipe, cut it off.

He put a little thing on the end of it so it wouldn't leak.

I went, great.

I said, how much is that?

He went, 180 quid.

So I went, right, okay.

So

I wrote him out a check for 180 quid

and I thought, well, I have a little bit of sarcasm.

So it wasn't his idea.

I helped him do it.

I went, how much was that tool?

He went, about five.

I went, that's paid for itself, isn't it?

Silence.

He went, yep, just nothing.

Just nothing.

Tough crowds, right?

So I signed the cheque.

He went, oh, he said, I forgot to charge you for the little washer on the end.

I went, how much is that?

He went, £2.50.

I went, can I give you that in cash?

Yeah, I went, there you go, there's the £2.50 for the washer on the end.

And there's the £180.

And he went, and that was it.

I didn't even get a little chuckle.

He didn't even think, he should have gone.

Well, let's split that because we both did that.

Yeah, that's £90 each.

I go, okay, that's where Brilliant mate is.

It's a Christmas bonus.

I have a fascinating tale to tell you, Carl.

I think you'll be intrigued.

When I do

junkets for films in America or Toronto Film Festival, I was assigned a security.

And

I've had security before.

I often have security.

They just sort of get you in and out of the car and usually just to control sort of autograph hunters and things.

But

this time I was given a security and he came in a suit.

He looked about 30, he looked quite unassuming.

I thought he was from just a security firm.

And there was a couple of them.

And

first of all, they were talking to each other.

And I thought, wow, the stakes are higher here.

I don't know why.

And they drove us to the hotel.

And there was loads of people going to the hotel.

I mean, much bigger stars than me.

You know, there was Ed Norton and George Clooney, and they were going in and out.

And he goes, we can go past these.

And he called ahead

and he knew everyone.

He just knew everyone.

And we went down in the car park.

We were met by another security guard in the hotel that let us go past everyone.

I mean, Clooney's having to queue up and sign.

I'm thinking, this is weird.

And I also feel a bit guilty because I was there to promote the film.

And I think this security guard is so good, I'm never going to ever have to pump into anyone.

It's amazing.

And he was there the next day, and he took us to the junket and back, and he put us on the thing.

And then it turned out that

he was actually LAPD

who was doing this for celebrities because he earned more money.

And then

I found out he had a gun.

He said, I can't come in the airport with you.

I can't take my gun.

So he's armed.

So I've got a security, who's an APD,

who's armed.

And I'm fascinated.

Now I'm fascinated.

This man is walking around with me with a little earpiece, talking to everyone.

He seems to know everyone, and he's got a gun.

I think, this is amazing.

Then one night he said, he dropped me off at the hotel and he said, I've actually been called.

I've got to go on a mission.

They need my help.

I said, really, what is it?

He said, it's a hostage situation.

He said, and I'm also SWAT.

So now I'm just, this is amazing.

He's now officially the coolest man I've ever met in my life.

So he goes off.

Then I'm thinking, I'm worried about him.

I was talking to Jane.

I was thinking, wow, he does this, he gets this electric cash, he's risking his life, and now he's going to a hostage situation.

And I was thinking, oh God,

he's just a silent hero.

So next day, I was at, he said, I was fine.

He said, I just turned up.

He said, I had to do it in my suit.

He said,

because I'm the negotiator.

What?

So now he's an armed security guard, who's an LAPD, who's special SWAT, and he's one of nine negotiators in LA.

We've we're in LA now, we've come from Toronto, went via New York in LA.

So I went, Oh my god and I just asked him questions for two hours.

Um so the first thing that happens is so someone runs in with a hostage.

This guy is just a kid who was nineteen.

He'd done a robbery, he'd panicked and he'd run away.

The police were after him, he ran in and he took his his kid with him, who's just a a three-year-old kid.

Okay.

That often happens.

Most hostages that people take are their family, because it's all they've got.

And they go, I'm going to kill my wife or my kid, and that.

And they don't mean it, they're not going to, but they need a hostage, they've got a gun.

So he talks to them and he says things to them, like, you know, you didn't mean this to happen, did you?

They're like, no, no, I just.

He said, it got out of hand, it just got out of hand.

And he has to let them trust him, because they've got a hatred for the police, of course.

They don't trust the police.

And

the first thing he does is call the phone company and say, What's the number of this address?

He goes, Change it by one digit.

So now only he can call that number.

Because, of course, you can't have an engaged signal.

If they haven't got a phone, they have to throw a phone through a window.

So they've got to have contact with this guy.

I said,

What happens if this guy says,

You're never going to get me out.

I'm going to kill all the hostages.

He said,

Then, my sole purpose is to get him to stand near a window.

I went, wow.

Now, apparently, there's a police marksman ready, of course, if they think they've lost him.

The important thing is you've got to take him out because you've got to protect the innocent.

So, how they shoot him is they shoot him in the top lip

and it takes out the brainstem, so there's no reflex.

And I'm just being absolutely

I'm captivated.

What do you think think of that, Carl, as a job?

It's amazing, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, once you've done one, though, it's like any job, isn't it, I suppose?

Yeah.

Once you've done one, not

boring.

No, no, no, no, it's good.

Do you reckon you could do it?

Do you reckon you could negotiate someone out of a hostage situation?

Well, I think it's one of those things.

There's nothing you can do.

It's like it doesn't matter if it goes wrong because

it is your birthday.

No, it's like being a vet, isn't it?

Not really.

Not really, because that's what it is.

It's nothing like being like a vet.

No, it is.

What I mean is you're expected to know the little kitten layer.

No, no, no, there's loads of it because I was saying, so

he says, I need a car by five o'clock, or I'm going to kill someone.

He then makes sure that he doesn't kill anyone, but he makes sure that car doesn't come till quarter past five.

Even if it's there, he keeps going, it's on its way, because then the hostage knows that he's not in control, really.

Even if it's as easy as saying, I want my wife here, and he can get her there at five, he makes sure she doesn't turn up till 20 past five.

Yeah, it's just little things like that, that's just absolutely fascinating.

The psychology of it is just amazing.

But he's not bothered, is he?

He's 15 minutes late.

He is because he really takes a bit, he empathises with these guys and he says, No, you've got to understand.

No, but the fella in the house with the gun, he's not going anywhere.

15 minutes to either side doesn't matter.

Why is he in a rush?

I don't think think Carl's getting out of 40.

You said, you said they make the car 15 minutes late.

He's getting his car.

That bloke's not in a rush.

He's never going to get in the car, is he?

That's the other thing as well.

Because once a bloke said to him,

I need a car.

And he just went, where are you going to go?

And the bloke went,

yeah, I forget that.

He has to make them forget their deadlines and their demands.

So soon it doesn't matter.

And he has to get in their head.

But to do that, he says that he has to empathise empathise with them to a certain extent.

He has to understand why they're doing it, to talk to them and go, Yeah, you've had a bad day.

That would send anyone.

But he has to get their trust.

Carl,

try and talk me out.

You think it's that easy?

Right, I've got a hostage situation, right?

Done a crime.

I've run in the building.

They go, There's any one person we can ask for.

Get me Carl Pilkerton.

Okay, you turn up, right, wash your clothes.

So you've asked me, you've asked for me to deal with this.

No, no, no, no.

The police know that you're their top man.

There's a guy in here.

He's got a gun.

He's got a hostage.

Okay, he's just done a crime.

They don't know what to do.

Okay?

Right.

You turn up.

What's your first question to the.

I'm talking to you.

Well, I know.

You've got a.

I'd say, I'd say, right.

I think there's a saying, actually,

you say, where's Brass?

Right?

Right.

I found that out.

I heard that.

I overheard that.

What's that?

It was something.

You're wasting time.

It was that bull cunt that's just turned up.

I'm gonna fucking kill it.

Right, where's brass?

What does it mean?

I heard it at school when they were.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

It means

I heard someone use it on the well, I don't know what the fuck it means.

It means the top person of the police who are around at the moment.

Yeah, when you talk on the fucking top brass, here, I've got a fucking gun against this kid's head.

Who the fuck are you, you bald little shithead?

Where's my car?

What car?

I've asked for a car.

Where's my fucking car?

Am I talking to you now?

Am I?

Are you the negotiator?

Yeah.

Right, get me a fucking car.

Where do you want to go?

Oh, I'm fucking sore for showing.

Throw a phone through the window so I can talk to you over the phone.

No.

Alright, in a minute.

Don't ever fucking say no to me.

In a minute, I said.

Okay.

Where are the clocks going?

Where's this fucking?

Listen, listen, can't you?

I've got a song throw.

It's a song throw.

I can't talk anymore with that fucking.

I've been called up here.

I can't hear you.

I need a fucking phone.

I've been called up here.

Yeah, can you go put the phone through?

Why are you putting the phone through, you dopey cunt?

You want to talk to him?

Because I don't want to give you a phone straight away.

You said you've got to delay him.

No, but you've got to talk to them.

You shouldn't even demand a phone.

You should make sure you've got a phone, you dopey twat.

Give him a phone.

Right, thanks.

Alright, how's it going?

That's better.

Right.

Who are you, by the way?

Who are you?

Bruce?

No, I can't give you them details.

Well, you can, because I've got to trust you, dopey Sod.

Are you police, or just some fucking cunt walking by?

I'm a policeman.

Right, I don't trust policemen.

No, but I'm a bit higher than that.

So, listen.

Or don't you tell me I'm laying down the law here.

I'm going to shoot someone unless I get a fast car.

I've done a robbery.

It's all gone wrong.

You're off now, but I want a car to the airport or on a plane standing by.

You don't know me, but I do this a lot.

Right?

And I can tell you that it never works out right.

Do you know anyone who's who's done what you're doing and is now living a happy life?

Well, I don't care.

I don't care about living anyway.

I don't care about living a house.

I don't care if this goes wrong,'cause I'm going to shoot the hostage.

What's your problem?

I'll just fight.

You've got the wrong attitude, mate.

I think you've got the wrong attitude, eh?

No, but this is that to be honest with you, this was my last week.

Why are you sending it back?

Because I want to bring him down to my level.

Right.

What's that got to do with it?

Well, you know, I've done this job for a long time.

Right.

Sometimes I felt like you.

I've been, you know, even though I'm on this side,

you know, sometimes I feel like, oh, I've had enough of this.

Right, well, I have had enough, but I I'll tell you, I don't care about living or dying here, so if I don't get a car to the airport, all bets are off.

I'm killing everyone and then myself, so you're you're you'll be a big loser.

You will be a big loser, son.

There you go, I'll give you the clue now, Carl.

He doesn't care about getting away with it.

Now you've got to get him to stand near a window.

You've got to take him out.

Because I've got a gun to someone's head.

You can't burst in, right?

You've got what.

Come on.

How do you get him to stand near a window?

Oh, I bet you're hot in there.

Are you going?

Oh, I am.

I am hot.

Yeah, that's why I've just drawn the curtains and keep away from the window because the sun's blazing in.

It's not too bad away from the window.

It's the sun's gone round the back now.

Just come and have a look.

It's a lovely, lovely evening.

Why do you want me to stand near a window?

I think just because when you see how nice an evening it is.

Worst load of driven ever.

When you see how.

Keep going, Christian.

When you see how you're doing.

No, it's that thing.

I've heard that if you smile, you feel better.

So have a little smile.

Think of a happy moment in your life.

I'll tell you what a happy moment in my life would be.

Putting a bullet through your little round head, you cunt.

Keep thinking about that image.

Right.

And you can see that round head.

Just come to the window.

I'll show you the round head.

That would probably work actually.

What what no, I'm not going to come near the window.

You come near the window.

You come near my window.

Have you come?

Are you coming near the window?

No, not yet.

Delaying it again.

Right, I I'm coming near the window.

Well, I'm gonna shoot you if you come near the window.

You don't be proup.

I thought we were getting somewhere here.

No, I'm gonna shoot you.

I've conned you, I've negotiated you to come near the window, and I'm going to shoot you in the head, you prap.

Just leave then.

Well, that's about it.

I hope you enjoyed the Ricky Giver's Guide to Law and Order.

The next one in the series is the Ricky Gerais Guide to the Future,

which is out on the 29th of December.

So look forward to that.

Anyway, it's goodbye from me, Ricky Gervais, Stephen Merchant, goodbye, and Carl Pilkington.

Audible hopes you have enjoyed this program.