E887 Going Deeper with Alessia Cara

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Speaker 3 Alessi, I don't know if you probably don't remember. We met once.

Speaker 3 When was this? Jingle Ball, 2016. I do remember.

Speaker 4 I introduced you. I do remember this.

Speaker 3 On stage. I do remember this.

Speaker 3 I've never introduced an artist before.

Speaker 4 I do remember this. And I remember this because I watched, I mean, you're like, can you pronounce my name wrong?

Speaker 3 I remember this. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 I watched you on the show that you were on.

Speaker 4 And yeah, so I knew who you were and I thought it was so cool. I was like, oh my God.
And it was like really early on in my career, too, you know, and I hadn't really met many people.

Speaker 4 So it was very cool.

Speaker 3 Mine too. I was definitely very nervous.

Speaker 3 And I didn't really, I had had never been on a stage before like wearing an earpiece like it's really kind of fascinating like how much you can't like hear the crowd oh yeah you're like in your own little zone wild yeah it's cool i was like i couldn't hear you you almost like couldn't hear yourself talking unless you're talking in the mic yeah it was a little trippy but yeah that's so cool oh my gosh well i'm honored to be your first uh your first through on stage moment it was yeah are we ready we're ready to rock and roll

Speaker 3 Well, Alicia, welcome to the Vile Files. Excited to be with you.

Speaker 4 Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 3 Congratulations.

Speaker 3 Obviously, on your release, Happy Valentine's Day. Thank you.
Happy Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 Love and Hyperbole out today. Yes.
How excited are you?

Speaker 4 I'm very excited. I'm super nervous too because it's been so long since I've released an album, but I'm just mostly excited because I've been sitting on this stuff for so long.

Speaker 4 So it feels really good to just finally have it out.

Speaker 4 And like, I've been checking social media and like seeing people talking about songs that were like a secret for so long and hearing them hear it is like such a trip.

Speaker 4 I can't believe that like it's out. You know, it's so weird.

Speaker 2 Cause you started working on this in 2021 or before?

Speaker 4 I think it was like, I mean, the first little inklings and like thoughts about it were like late 2021, but I guess I didn't really start. writing it officially until like 2022.

Speaker 2 That's

Speaker 2 that is a long time to be sitting on something though, to just like be working on it, sitting on it, constantly thinking about it. That's a long time.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 4 It's been my secret.

Speaker 3 I'm always fascinated with the idea of the confidence and self-belief and this idea that like, why not me? Like, I can kind of do anything.

Speaker 3 And then that feeling of like imposter syndrome sometimes of like doubting yourself of, you know, like you're just talking about being nervous, right?

Speaker 3 You know, your release date and those questions that seep into your head, like, will people enjoy it? You know, do like whatever thoughts come into your head and that balance.

Speaker 3 Do you ever ever feel that where you sometimes wake up one day and there's this like this true inner belief that you have of like, I love my music, people love my music and you just feel really good about it.

Speaker 3 Or other days where you're just like that self-doubt creeps in, you know, and that that juggle between the two constantly. Cause I feel like that's something I'm always constantly juggling with.

Speaker 3 Like some days I feel like I'm

Speaker 3 on top of the world and like, like I have this. great belief in myself.
And other days it's just like, how am I even, like, what am I even doing here?

Speaker 4 You know, like, I so feel that. I so feel that.

Speaker 4 I feel like that's the experience of a lot of artists, or even just people like in the public, you know, because on one end, like, you, you have to sort of have a level of confidence in order to do this and put yourself out there, right?

Speaker 4 But then, I think something about just like being perceived by people, or when you have a lot of like blessings in your life and things that come to you, there is that sense of like, but do I deserve this?

Speaker 4 Or, you know, I'm an artist because I'm sensitive and I'm sensitive because I'm an artist. And so, I think that I juggle between that all the time.

Speaker 4 Um, I think my default is to, if I had to pick between which one is more frequent or what the default is, unfortunately, it's like that like imposter syndrome side, you know, just not really feeling, I don't know, like good enough in life.

Speaker 4 I've always kind of felt that.

Speaker 4 So, you know, when you have it on this scale where you have people constantly telling you like who you are and if you are good enough or not to them, like that really can kind of sometimes get in your head.

Speaker 4 So I kind of do juggle between. I think I am a lot better at it these days, though.
I like try really hard to stay focused.

Speaker 3 How do you do that? Like, how do you work through that process?

Speaker 3 Even as an artist, again, like there's this another battle of you have a fan base, you have a team, I'm assuming, you have a lot of praise and adoration.

Speaker 3 Like, how do you keep yourself grounded, you know, and stay that like, I think what a lot of fans love about you is that authenticity.

Speaker 3 Like you are a pop star, but like you don't present as something like an out-of-touch, you know, like pop star, right? Where that you're, you feel very connected to your audience.

Speaker 3 So like, how do you do that? And how do you maintain that?

Speaker 4 I guess I just really try to hold on to any sense of normalcy because, you know, the second I kind of got launched into this world, I realized it was so far from reality and the reality of, you know, my friends and peers in my personal life.

Speaker 4 And I didn't like that feeling. I wanted to feel like I was a part of.
my family and a part of my friendships and I can relate to people in my life.

Speaker 4 And so I decided just early on that I just wanted to maintain any possible sense of normalcy. And so, you know, when I'm not doing this, I just live a very normal, easy, chill life.

Speaker 4 And I just do regular things. I didn't, I really didn't stop myself from just going out and doing things.
And, you know, if I got spotted, I got spotted.

Speaker 4 It's fine, you know, until that just became normal for people. And I keep a lot of my personal life just off social media.
I don't really talk about it.

Speaker 4 And I think that really just helps me separate, you know, so I can like take off the hat at night and put it back on when I need to, you know, and I'm still very much myself, but I think it's just like keeping certain things away from this is what helps me stay grounded, you know, just reminding myself that I'm a normal person and this is my job this is a job and um yeah yeah you did get into this industry very young i mean how old were you when you first started like i mean i know you released that your debut album at 18 right uh yeah yeah so you must have been working on that for quite some time before i was yeah i was um in school i was in high school while secretly working on this album i would like felt like a kind of like clark kent superman thing like after school

Speaker 3 math or writing art yeah yeah exactly.

Speaker 4 I was like, and I was so shy to tell anyone. So I barely told anybody at my school that I was doing this.
But like after school, I would go to the studio.

Speaker 4 I'd have my dad drive me to the studio in the city and I'd go in with my backpack still on, sometimes my uniform still on.

Speaker 4 And I would, you know, be learning how to make these songs with these collaborators, you know, and just figuring out how to be in a studio for the first time and crafting, you know, what eventually became the first album, which I had, I had no idea would become the first album.

Speaker 4 But yeah, that's kind of how it started.

Speaker 4 And then I found myself in this like fork in the road when it it was time to graduate of like okay do i try to take this album that i've made to like labels and try to get a manager and try to get signed or do i go to university or college you know like what do i do and then i made a promise to my parents that if they let me take a year off before i go to college if i get signed or if something happens in that year wow what a deal yeah so that was the deal and thankfully i i ended up getting signed like right before that year like ended it was perfect timing so it worked out what was that conversation like though with your dad was it was it kind of like i think i can sing like i want to be a singer or was like your family kind of being like you have this talent you should pursue this i think it was on it was definitely coming from me um i come from a very blue collar italian family you know the music industry was not really something in we weren't in that orbit like at all right i have like an aunt who sings and she's wonderful and you know my grandfather plays music and things like that but you know it's not not nothing like this We had never, you know, seen anything like this.

Speaker 4 So I think for them, they were a bit confused by the idea of me wanting to do this as a full-time job. And I think admittedly, they were a little scared, of course, as any parent would be.

Speaker 4 So they were trying their best to be supportive, but also make sure that I have some sort of plan B, which is where the one-year-old daughter.

Speaker 3 Imagine, you know, it's like we have a one-year-old daughter. So like as parents, we're, you know, I'm very excited about her getting older and fantasizing about what she might enjoy and do.

Speaker 3 And I, you know, it's funny. I remember this conversation.
I love my parents. I had a great childhood and they gave me so many things, but there was a conversation I'll never forget with my dad.

Speaker 3 And I remember like lying in bed, I don't know how old I was, five, six, seven years old. And he was kind of asking me what I wanted to do when I grew up.

Speaker 3 And I think I might have said something like, I want to be a professional athlete or something like that.

Speaker 3 And I remember my dad kind of saying, kind of, it was basically kind of like, oh, that's really cool. But like,

Speaker 3 I don't know, like, you know, professional athlete. It was almost like, and I get it where he was coming from.

Speaker 3 It was like, you know, that balance as a parent being between like, again, like believing in your kid, but also trying to set your child up for success and having reasonable goals.

Speaker 3 And like, I imagine your parents, you're like, yeah, I want to, I want to be an artist, you know, or I want to sing. And it's kind of like, yeah, great.
Or, you know, right there.

Speaker 3 Like, what classes are you taking? Exactly.

Speaker 4 Yeah. A hundred percent.
It was definitely that.

Speaker 4 And it was, like you said, totally out of love, totally out of the, you know, just desire for me to have security and safety in my life and just to make sure that I am not going to be just left stranded.

Speaker 4 And I totally get that.

Speaker 4 But yeah, I've had those conversations too with so many family members of like, you know, maybe you should look into being a doctor or being a teacher and then doing music on the side.

Speaker 4 And I understand both sides, you know, I think it's important to like fuel your kids and make sure that you, you know, teach them that life is so big and that they can do anything. But

Speaker 4 I guess it is important to teach them other things too and like give them a sense of security. It's just, it's a hard balance.
I don't know what I would do as a parent if my kids said that.

Speaker 4 If I was in their position and my kids said that, I don't know if I would have, I don't know what I would have done.

Speaker 4 I think I probably would have been like, yeah, because I'm a little delusional, but I don't know. It's tough.
But they were super supportive.

Speaker 4 And then once they saw that I, you know, had a management team and then I got signed.

Speaker 4 in this room, actually, which is so crazy.

Speaker 3 This is literally the room. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Wow. Crazy.
How old were you? I was, I think, on my 18th birthday, I think I signed the papers or

Speaker 4 something like that. I don't remember.

Speaker 3 Did you do anything to celebrate or anything?

Speaker 4 No, I don't think so. I think I was just, I think maybe we went out for dinner, like with my family, and we just like celebrated that way.
I think I can't, honestly, can't remember.

Speaker 4 It was like 10 years ago now. And it was all that time of my life was such a blur.

Speaker 3 But it's sometimes those big moments, like whatever it is, like for you, your big deal. I remember when I was asked to be the bachelor and I thought that was kind of surreal or when we found out.

Speaker 3 Natalie was pregnant. Like there's always like these surreal moments where maybe you've thought about them in the past or you've fantasized about them and then it happens.

Speaker 3 And then there's like that gap between like, you know, when we found out Natalie was pregnant and then it's like, all right, well, what should we get for dinner?

Speaker 3 You know, like, cause you feel like you're like, you know, really exciting news. You kind of go back to life or I imagine you signed a deal and it's like you're not, you know, making music yet.

Speaker 3 And like, there's all these things and like there's this huge excitement around it. And then like, you're like.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, when does it start? You know, almost like that feeling.

Speaker 4 For sure. Yeah.
It's like New Year's, like when you count down and you're like, happy new year. And then after that, you're like, okay, it's New Year now.

Speaker 3 We got to do stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's how, that's how i felt with that too i was like okay what does this mean and again like i was so far removed from this i had no idea what even being signed meant i just know that that's the thing you want you know as a as an artist you want to do that so you can have support and you know you do the stuff so i had no idea i was still a teenager i had no clue what was coming um and yeah we just kind of i started like dipping my toe into it and uh we put out the song here which is my first song on soundcloud just to like see what would happen test the waters and then it kind of just went a little crazy.

Speaker 3 We love a sound, SoundCloud, Jane. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 I didn't realize, yeah, I didn't realize you put it on SoundCloud, and that's where it.

Speaker 4 Wow, yeah, yeah, because I think the team was like, This is a great song, but it's like they didn't know if it was the right direction.

Speaker 4 I was very adamant that it was because I was like, This is just such a cool song. And I think everybody was like, But I don't know.
So we, I was like, Okay, let's compromise.

Speaker 4 Let's just put it on SoundCloud, no pressure, and just see what happens. And they're like, Okay,

Speaker 2 uh, and then I mean, your life completely changed after that. How, how did you manage going through a complete life change?

Speaker 4 It was

Speaker 4 so bittersweet because I think on one end, it was extremely exciting. It was like everything I ever wanted.
You know, I was doing all these things that I dreamt of my whole life.

Speaker 4 But then there's this other side to it where, you know, when it becomes reality, it can be very overwhelming, especially being like a young girl or just a young person. It was like a lot.

Speaker 4 My whole life was completely different, you know, going from like. having a life where I was just going from school to home, home to school.

Speaker 4 That was my life to like traveling all over the world, different hotel room every day, being away from my friends and family, being recognized on the street, like things like that.

Speaker 4 You know, your whole life is different. It was, it was very challenging, but also exciting.

Speaker 4 So it was like, I was trying to balance both things of being grateful and excited, but also being like, okay, whoa, whoa, what the fuck is this?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 It was tough.

Speaker 2 That was crazy.

Speaker 3 You know, you've over the past few years, you've been kind of laying low a little bit.

Speaker 3 And now with this new album coming out, do you feel like you're kind of embarking on a new chapter or is it not that deep? And what was part of the reason for like laying kind of low?

Speaker 3 I think there was a lot, a lot of your fans out there were, you know, kind of really starving for like new music and really excited. Did you feel that pressure?

Speaker 3 And yeah, kind of where, how do you see this chapter of your life in your career?

Speaker 4 Well, in terms of if I felt that pressure, for sure. I mean, there's pressure now.
I put the album out and they're already like, all right, when's the next one?

Speaker 3 I'm like, guys, wow.

Speaker 4 It hasn't even been 24 hours. I think they are partly joking, but partly not.
But yeah, I mean, there's always that pressure.

Speaker 4 And that's, I mean, pressure is good because it means that there's people waiting and they're excited. So that's wonderful.

Speaker 4 But I think in terms of why I wanted to sort of lay low and take a little break was because, you know, at the time it had been like seven or eight years that I've been doing this non-stop.

Speaker 4 And I think because of that, like music was just like my top priority. And I was neglecting a lot of areas of my life.

Speaker 4 that I think I wanted to nourish and nurture a little bit, like just my friendships, my milestones that I missed of my family members and,

Speaker 4 you know, just personal things, like just my mental health and just feeling like a, like a person, like a normal person.

Speaker 4 I just missed like walking to get a coffee and walking my dog and like doing regular things. I know that sounds kind of cheesy and weird, but it's the truth.
Like those things really

Speaker 4 fuel you and they make you feel better, you know, when you need that. So I just was missing that.
And I just kind of developed a little bit of resentment, I think, for the industry.

Speaker 4 And I just was like, what do I want to say? Do I even want to say anything else? Do I want to be here?

Speaker 4 I had to just reshape like how I felt about myself as an artist and where I wanted to go, if I even wanted to continue or not. And I had to just find it again on my own terms, I think.

Speaker 3 There were moments of maybe deciding to hang it up, so to speak, and do something else in between.

Speaker 4 I think so. Yeah.
For a little bit, I was like, I don't know if I want to like.

Speaker 4 Keep doing this anymore for a few different reasons. That was just an internal conversation that I was having.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 I don't know why. I don't know exactly what it was.
I think I fell out of love with it for a second. Not so much music, but the industry itself, because it's so ever-changing.
It's so challenging.

Speaker 4 There's a lot of things that are difficult about it. And I just felt for a while, like, is the juice like worth the squeeze here? What's, you know, what's the purpose in it?

Speaker 4 So I had to just find that and like rediscover my love for music and like why I started in the first place.

Speaker 4 And I had to start it on my own terms, not because I felt the pressure to or because I felt like it's what I had to do. I just wanted to miss it, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Did you get as far as like thinking about what you would do? A little bit.

Speaker 4 I and I thought about that now, too, because I don't, you know, this, I don't think will be forever, you know, careers have peaks and valleys.

Speaker 4 I, it's bold of me to assume that I'll still be like doing this at, you know, any sort of level forever. So I have thought about that.
I mean, I would love to.

Speaker 4 It's hard because this is kind of the same industry, but I've always wanted to do acting or like, at least like maybe write for like TV or movies or do like screenplays and stuff.

Speaker 4 But I guess it's still in the same industry. So I don't know, but that would be really fun.

Speaker 4 It's hard when you've been in the public to do something that's not in the public, I I feel, you know, if I just went to go work somewhere else, it's strange.

Speaker 3 I don't know if that worries.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it'd be weird.

Speaker 4 But I would love to do like, I would love to write behind the scenes for like movies or like write scripts and stuff. That's always been something that's interested me.

Speaker 2 I mean, you're obviously talented in writing. So it makes sense that you would like carry that on with whatever you did.
Yeah. Next.
If you had to do something next.

Speaker 3 It also like makes sense. I know you said it sounded kind of weird, but like that time apart, like you are in the creative space.
You're an artist.

Speaker 3 but like you said, the music industry or just entertainment in general has that business side, which I think for any creative person, it's a conflict of interest, it almost feels like, right?

Speaker 3 And it's just like it's such a grind to keep going and wake up every day, especially once you like have that success, you have that music that's out that people are loving and performing.

Speaker 3 And I can see how like without getting away or stepping back, it almost like every day, it almost takes away a little bit of the artistry part of the music where it's just like you're just showing up and you're singing and it just, you know, you know know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Like you,

Speaker 3 you almost have to reset, you know, sometimes because it's almost, you know, becomes that mundane feeling, you know, or just connecting with family and friends, like finding your inspiration, you know, almost feels like, you know, whether it's, I hear that, you know, I'm a big sports fan.

Speaker 3 So even with like, you know, athletes, sometimes like the more success they have, the bigger contracts, they, they kind of lose. what motivated them in the beginning, you know, for sure.

Speaker 3 And to kind of get away from it almost seems to bring you back to that spot.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I definitely felt that way. Because I, I mean, I, I was a music fan before I was anything else.
You know, I loved music genuinely.

Speaker 4 Before I even realized I could sing or wanted to sing, that I just loved music so much, you know, and I just wanted to get back to that.

Speaker 4 So I started just like listening to music as a fan again and just regaining that like innocent, youthful sense of love for it.

Speaker 4 And I think that was kind of the catalyst for me like wanting to start, you know, treading the waters a little bit and like keep going. Yeah, you just have to sometimes reconnect.

Speaker 4 And in order to do that, you have to get away from it, you know? And I think it also kind of like filled the tank with like new experiences to then go and write about.

Speaker 4 You know, if you, if you don't have any new experiences, where are you going to pull inspiration from if you don't even feel like a person?

Speaker 4 Like, where are you going to get the human experience if you're not really living the human experience?

Speaker 3 You're living in like a bubble, right? So, yeah. Well, it's, we're recording this on Valentine's Day.
Yes. Thank you guys for spending it with me, by the way.

Speaker 3 I'm like, they're only languaging otherwise. Likewise.

Speaker 2 This is a dream of ours.

Speaker 3 Well, and the album Love and Hyperbole, I mean, is it a coincidence that it dropped on Valentine's Day, an album that seems to be very centered around love, relationships, and just romance in general?

Speaker 3 Or is that just a huge coincidence?

Speaker 4 I guess it's like a bit of both. Cause when I first finished the album, I wanted to put it out in October of last year.
I was pretty set like on that month.

Speaker 4 And then as it was approaching and I had a couple singles out, I was like, this is going a little fast, you know, because like I said before, I've been sitting on this album for about three years and i feel like in pop music sometimes like things tend to just be a little bit disposable and they go really really quick and people just pump stuff out which i understand the necessity of i guess in to keep up with the industry but i was like i just wanted to give it a little time to breathe favorite yeah and so i was talking to my manager we were at a restaurant and i was we were both we both had that understanding of like okay i think we should move this and then we were looking at you know dates in the new year and he was like What about February?

Speaker 4 And I was like, okay. And he's like, oh my God, Valentine's Day.
And we looked and we were like, oh, my God. And it's on the 14th and there's 14 tracks.
We're like, oh, my God, this is like destined.

Speaker 4 It was very serendipitous. And we high five.
We're like, this is so cool.

Speaker 3 We're very happy about that coincidence.

Speaker 4 So I guess it was like half a choice, but also half a, you know, very something we stumbled upon.

Speaker 3 What are your opinions on Valentine's Day? Is that like a holiday you generally love? Or

Speaker 3 have you had Valentine's Day where you're like, you know, it's just like a hallmark holiday? Are like you, are you kind of a romantic or more of a cynic?

Speaker 4 I mean, it depends where I'm at in my relationships.

Speaker 4 Now I'm like, I love it.

Speaker 4 I mean, it depends. I've always been a romantic, though.
Like, even

Speaker 4 on times where I've been single on Valentine's Day, like, I just try to surround myself with people I love, like, go, you know, hang out with my parents and third wheel them.

Speaker 4 Or, like, you know, my friends and I, we do like a Galentine's Day, which is always really nice. So I always feel like I have support and love around me on that day.

Speaker 4 But there have been times, trust me, where I have been miserable as well.

Speaker 3 What's your love language?

Speaker 4 Oh, I have a few. I think it's like tied.
I'm a physical touch and I believe it's words of affirmation, right? My, they're tied for one. And then my second one is quality time.
Quality time.

Speaker 4 But I would say just opinion-based, not by the test. I would say it's probably physical touch.
Like I love a hand hold, a hug, a head on shoulder. Like that speaks more than words for me.

Speaker 3 What's your, what's your perfect Valentine's Day gift?

Speaker 4 Perfect Valentine's Day gift. Give or receive.

Speaker 2 He's taking notes.

Speaker 4 He's taking notes.

Speaker 4 I love a card. Honestly, I love a card.
Write me a nice long card. Tell me.

Speaker 2 Love letters don't come around very often.

Speaker 3 I love.

Speaker 4 I need you to tell me a million times how you feel about me again and again, what you felt when you first saw me.

Speaker 3 Oh my God, yes. Once you have a bad day, let's relive it.

Speaker 3 100 reasons why I love you. Was that for Valentine's Day or your birthday or what?

Speaker 2 I think it was my birthday. He did write out 100 reasons why I love you.

Speaker 3 That's so nice. That's so sweet.

Speaker 2 There was a few, like,

Speaker 4 there was a few, like,

Speaker 2 your eyes

Speaker 3 and your hair. You know, like, you need to have to fill in some numbers.

Speaker 3 There was definitely like your toenails.

Speaker 3 I really just get specific.

Speaker 3 Your smile. You.

Speaker 4 That's really nice. What are your love languages?

Speaker 3 She's all of them. Yeah, all of them for sure.

Speaker 2 But I think number one is physical touch, too.

Speaker 3 Physical touch.

Speaker 3 She loves a gift. I do love it.
But she also loves to give gifts as much as she loves to receive them. Like, gifts really is a love language for her where she gets excited.

Speaker 3 Or like, that's on the bottom for me. Yeah.
Like, I don't do like gifts. I'm even receiving them.
I'm like, yay. And then, you know, giving them, like, I've, if I have an idea, it's great.

Speaker 3 I can really get into it. But like, it's not something Natalie, she'll be, you know, it'll be three months out from whatever moment.
And, you know, Natalie loves a surprise.

Speaker 3 You know, she's like, do you want to know what I got you? I've learned that means.

Speaker 3 I've learned that means I'm supposed to start guessing. She's, you should guess, you know, like things like that.
I just want a spoiler surprise.

Speaker 3 Where like, I'll be like, oh, shit, Valentine's Day is two days away. I need to order flowers or something like that.
So it doesn't come naturally to me. I'm definitely like an acts of service.

Speaker 3 Like, that's how I love to show love. And then quality time for sure, words of affirmation, I probably are my top three.

Speaker 2 It's really hard to be like, definitely not acts of service. You know, to have someone be like, one of these love languages is like, absolutely not my way.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like they're all lovely and I would love to feel all of them all the time.

Speaker 4 It's so true. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't mind any of them. There should be a three-year-old.
I don't think it's for any, yeah. It's not like any of them are like, ooh, that gives me the ick.

Speaker 3 It's just more like I think some come naturally for us than others, right? Yeah, yeah, true.

Speaker 4 Very true.

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Speaker 3 You mentioned on this album that there's a little bit of storytelling in your own personal love life, Dead Man being one of them.

Speaker 3 And it almost, it almost, we were all three talking about it before we came in.

Speaker 3 It almost feels like the album is in some kind of order where it almost kind of starts out a little like sad and a little heavy.

Speaker 3 And you're, and you're talking about difficult challenges in relationships.

Speaker 3 Is there accuracy to that?

Speaker 3 Yeah. And then it kind of progresses to a more like independent, like, screw it.
I'm out there having fun. And then a little bit, and then back to like connecting with love.

Speaker 4 totally 100 nailed it yeah it's i really tried to make it as chronological as possible so that if you're you know listening to it in full if you're like an albums person like me i'd love to just like listen to whole albums um you know that it tells a story and it really is like the story of the last you know two and a half three years of my life where i did kind of go through that arc you know i started writing this album just in a not great place mentally.

Speaker 4 Like I said, I had fallen kind of out of love with music. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with myself.
Felt a little lost in my personal life.

Speaker 4 And I just went through the process of learning to harness that feeling of pain and all the, you know, not so great stuff about life and use it to teach me things and reshape it until it looks like something that I can at least tolerate, but at best, you know, make me better and

Speaker 4 turn into something beautiful. So that's kind of what.
what happened.

Speaker 3 The dead man for me, I know, again, I would be curious, like, what your inspiration, but even before I was lucky enough to meet Natalie and fall in love, like even my time shit on reality TV is the best, but even before that, like in my 20s, I, you know, I had a, I had great role models as parents in terms of love in a way, like both wonderful, but in a bad way sometimes.

Speaker 3 And what I mean by that is like, my parents always taught me like love is really special, right? And you have to fight for it.

Speaker 3 And I think as a young man, that fight for it part, I really didn't know how to actually like, didn't really know what that meant, right?

Speaker 3 So when I was in relationships younger, I wasn't really willing to look at, is this the right relationship or is this the healthy relationship? And so, you know, I knew I was taught love is special.

Speaker 3 You have to fight for it. You have ups and downs.
So when I was in relationships early in life, I wouldn't be open to the possibility that, well, this maybe is good. It's not as great as it could be.

Speaker 3 And as much as we might love each other, like maybe we're not compatible enough. And I kind of, it almost felt like Denman was,

Speaker 3 it felt like I was hearing you talk about having a hard time letting go to something or not feeling appreciated.

Speaker 3 And I feel like there's a lot of people out there in relationships where they feel like they're doing 100% of their half and like 40% of their partner's half.

Speaker 3 And is there anything about that song that kind of connects with that mindset where you're just, you feel like you're.

Speaker 3 You almost wake up one day and realize, why am I doing all of this and not getting enough in return?

Speaker 3 And, but having a hard time letting go of, and maybe maybe saying goodbye to something that you maybe at one point said this is going to be my forever you know and i need to fight for this i need to invest in this and i really need to protect this relationship and figuring out should i do that or maybe there's something else out there for me yeah yeah that's spot on exactly how i've felt and yeah i think it's interesting because you know we we're the things we're taught about love are strange because I think we're taught that it's noble to self-sacrifice and self-abandon in love.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, you think that's like the the most noble thing you can do and the most romantic thing you can do, you know, is make yourself smaller for somebody else.

Speaker 4 And while I think, you know, there is a level of compromise that has to happen.

Speaker 4 And like you said, you know, a level of fighting for something or, or, you know, having difficulties and getting through them.

Speaker 4 I do think there's a difference between completely forgetting about yourself or completely holding on to an idea of a person or the potential of a person.

Speaker 4 Like, I just feel like in my life, I have made myself smaller for people. And I thought that that was like the right thing to do.
I thought that's what unconditional love was supposed to be.

Speaker 4 And then you start to realize maybe that the other person isn't really doing the same and you're giving a lot more.

Speaker 4 And it's hard to come to terms with that fact that maybe you're just not the right person, you know, maybe we've tried all we can try. And maybe I don't like this feeling.

Speaker 4 And maybe this isn't how love is supposed to feel, you know? And I've realized through honestly just growing up and meeting new people that I don't know, that's just not the love that I want.

Speaker 4 And I don't think that that's the love that we deserve as people.

Speaker 4 I think you should, of course, fight for things and there's going to be problems and you're going to have to work through them, but there should never be that feeling of like, I have completely forgotten about myself here or I don't feel seen by you.

Speaker 4 I don't, you know, I don't feel like I know you or I even know myself anymore. So yeah, that's kind of just been the compass now.

Speaker 4 When I look at people in my life in different relationships, certainly romantic partnerships,

Speaker 4 I want to feel like I'm, like you're expanding me, like I'm seeing new parts of myself I didn't know were there rather than hiding parts of myself or like having to make myself small so that you can shine.

Speaker 4 I want you to bring things out of me. And I think that's what real love is supposed to do.
It's supposed to show you yourself.

Speaker 4 Maybe things that aren't so great, but they teach you things and they help you grow, you know.

Speaker 4 And I think that's a difference between like good difficulty in relationships versus like the wrong kind of difficulty.

Speaker 3 And it's so tough, right?

Speaker 3 In real time to figure out what that is because you don't want to go into a relationship like a tit for tat, like, well, I'll do this for you and then immediately expect something in return.

Speaker 3 You, you have to kind of go in doing things out of love, not expecting anything.

Speaker 3 But every once in a while, you have to learn to check in with yourself and with the relationship and go, do I feel loved? One of our shows, people will call it and ask for relationship advice.

Speaker 3 And one of my favorite questions is like, well, how do you feel loved in this relationship? Or like, what do you love about this relationship? How does your partner make you feel?

Speaker 3 And it's fascinating.

Speaker 3 asking that question to people who are like on the fence about things to actually think about it because you know so many times especially when we're young we meet someone we get excited, we fall in love, we should date, I love you, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend, let's be together, and then all of a sudden you're just like sometimes playing house or like you're so much your relationship was based off the excitement of how you meant.

Speaker 3 And then you don't really, it's almost as if people stop connecting and falling in love once they decide to be in a relationship. So true.
And then they have that honeymoon phase.

Speaker 3 And next thing you know, it's like you wake up one day and you're bickering over stupid things. And like, or you, you feel like you've been maybe giving a little bit more than than you're receiving.

Speaker 3 And yeah, growing up and falling in love, it's that, you really have to, it's that trial and error. Like, I always think love is this really passionate, crazy, wonderful thing that's so intense.

Speaker 3 And we, we try to do it at an early age, you know, like even, even before we're technically adults, as if, like, what if we got into a like a Ferrari without knowing how to drive it? Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, that's kind of like what getting into a relationship is when you're young and you just like kind of sometimes have to crash and burn

Speaker 3 and like pick up the pieces and try again. Exactly.
You know, and it's, it's been, I mean, ups and downs for me. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 And for me too.

Speaker 4 And for I think a lot of people, which is why, you know, it's so good to talk about this stuff because people don't really have a compass because again, like what's taught the biggest like romantic story in the world is Romeo and Juliet.

Speaker 4 Like I'm going to literally self-sacrifice for you, which is very romantic. And I guess that's different because they both did it for each other.
So that's, I guess, sweet.

Speaker 4 But, you know, like, I just feel like we're just taught this thing, like you said, of like, you have to fight for it.

Speaker 4 And I do agree, but I do think there's this side of it that you have to feel loved. And also, there's just a side of it too, where it's like, ask yourself, do you even, do you even like this person?

Speaker 4 Like if you didn't have any feelings for them at all, like romantically, if you just saw them, would you want to hang out with them?

Speaker 4 If you were in a room with your friends and you had no feelings for them, would you think like, I hope so-and-so.

Speaker 4 like could be here or like i wish this person was here and a lot of the times when i ask my friends that they'll be like not really you know so it's like then why do you want to spend your life with that person what is it about them that you like not even like how do they make you feel which is an important question but like do you even like them as a person in general you know and oftentimes you'll find like, you're just like, what do I like about this person other than what they give me sometimes?

Speaker 4 Like that little bit of serotonin that they give me once in a while when they give me attention. Like, what else do I like about them?

Speaker 2 For me, it was like my, you know, I, I was taught that like love is hard.

Speaker 2 And like, so I went through all these relationships where it was bad, it was ugly, there was, you know, violence and, you know, all of this stuff.

Speaker 2 And it was like, but this is like, it's hard because it's love and you're supposed like, this is what it is. Okay.
I've got it.

Speaker 2 And now that like I'm with Nick, I realize that, no, love is like the easiest fucking thing.

Speaker 2 It should be. The easiest thing in the world.
Like it should be so easy to just be in love and love your person. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 We talk about that a lot too, where it's just, you know, I'm a little older than Natalie and I was just like, and I've had a handful of relationships that didn't work out.

Speaker 3 And I was just like, you know, you're, you're my first partner I have where I don't feel like we compete in a way where I told that to my therapist once.

Speaker 3 And she's like, yeah, I used to fight with my ex-husband over like who had a worst day. Oh my God.
Like you can fight over. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Like, sometimes you have those people where it's like, I had a bad day. It's like, well, I had an even worse day.
It's like, geez, I'm on. Okay.

Speaker 3 So, like, you know, and it's just like, but I took that for granted.

Speaker 3 And back to like thinking love's hard or you have to have hard work where it's just like, I had past partners where like we had nothing in common.

Speaker 3 Like everything was a debate, whether it was what we wanted to eat, what we wanted to watch, you know, what we wanted to do. And it's like, yes, when people say like, all you need is love.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, I, I don't know. Like, you need a lot more.
It's so much easier.

Speaker 3 Well, it's just also just a lot easier if you wake up and go, should we do this?

Speaker 3 And the other person's like, yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun, you know, because there's so many differences between Nellie and I.

Speaker 3 But like, I've never had a partner where like every day is in a struggle figuring out the daily routinely things. And that is something that I learned.

Speaker 3 I took away for granted in relationships because I wanted to romanticize.

Speaker 3 And like I said, I had that, these, these wonderful parents who were in love as role models and like kind of in different versions were all like, if we're not suffering through it, like maybe it's my like Catholic upbringing and like, you know, that shame of like suffering is good.

Speaker 3 But like you really, you know, and figuring out like, well, do I really need to feel this way to be in love? You know, and like it really can be a lot easier.

Speaker 3 if you're willing to wait for that right person and who kind of wakes up and feels like every day they're willing to choose and fight for this relationship, but not fight in a like, I got to fight to save it, but like, I got to protect it.

Speaker 3 Like, I want to wake up and connect with my partner in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 Totally. That's so true.
Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 4 I totally, totally agree with that.

Speaker 2 How is your heart?

Speaker 4 My heart is good. My heart is really good.
I feel very happy. I feel very, very loved in many areas of my life.
I feel like I just have a lot of great people around me. And

Speaker 4 yeah, just I feel very well supported, well protected, and I feel good. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Are we in in love?

Speaker 3 Yes, I am.

Speaker 2 Have we, is this something that you are keeping private to kind of keep those boundaries like you were talking about earlier?

Speaker 2 Or is this something you're like, no, I want to share this part of my life with my fans?

Speaker 4 I've definitely kept it super private. I mean, one, for myself, but also because, you know.
Everyone in my life, like I chose to do this.

Speaker 4 So like this is like a thing that I'm willing to do every day, but the people in my life have not chosen that. And I don't ever want to throw someone into something that they're not comfortable with.

Speaker 4 And I'm honestly not comfortable with it either, but it's in the music, definitely. I never stop myself from talking about it in music.
And my music's very autobiographical.

Speaker 4 So you're bound to get songs that are about, you know, things that are going on in my life. So yeah, but I'm happy.

Speaker 3 I'm happy. Good.
Good.

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Speaker 3 You know, we get to interview a lot of different types of really interesting people. Artists like yourself, actors, even reality TV stars.

Speaker 3 And I always get fascinated by the fan bases and the relationships that the people we get to interview have. And each fan base, like, you know, fan, I always remind myself is like short for fanatic.

Speaker 3 And we're like, we love our, even, you know, people who listen to our show. I'm so grateful for our fans and the people who listen.
But sometimes it can feel overwhelming, you know?

Speaker 3 Sometimes our fans, you know, want a lot from us, want our vulnerability, want us to to share more than maybe we're comfortable with. There's toxicity in fan bases and things like that.

Speaker 3 How do you balance that relationship with your fan bases?

Speaker 3 Not only just your fan bases, but just in the music in general, because I have found that the music industry, they ride for their people, you know, and sometimes that will mean knocking someone else.

Speaker 3 Knocking someone else down. And how do you manage that?

Speaker 4 You know, because you've, you know, you've had to do experience stuff in the past with some really cool moments in in your career being almost overshadowed by like fans maybe with the best of intentions um kind of not being as nice as they could be yeah yeah that's that's really challenging and it was definitely way more challenging back then just because you know when you're young you're like still forming your own opinion of yourself and like we were talking about you already have that imposter syndrome you're already you know going there going up there um or going into every day already having having those thoughts of, am I good enough?

Speaker 4 Can I do this?

Speaker 4 And then when you have like mass amounts of people telling you you're not, it's very hard to compartmentalize that and tell yourself, especially when you're still developing your own brain that that's not valid or true.

Speaker 4 You know, you, you find the truth in that somehow.

Speaker 4 And it, yeah, it was really challenging. And I think that's the one.

Speaker 4 I don't really have regrets, but that is the one regret that I have, especially with like the whole like Grammy moment. That's the one regret that I have.

Speaker 4 It's like letting that ruin that for me because it I was going to ask you. It did ruin it for me.
Yeah. It was like, it was just a weird time.

Speaker 4 And I, I just, I felt the weight of that so hard and I felt guilty. Like I felt guilt for winning something that I had no control over.
I felt bad. I felt guilty.

Speaker 3 And like you almost started believing

Speaker 3 some of the things that they were saying and almost like, like it felt wrong to appreciate the, from a career standpoint, like it must have been. I mean, I fantasized about winning awards.

Speaker 3 I like I, you know,

Speaker 3 I wouldn't even be in a position to win because I don't have the ability to win them. And, you know, no, you know, and like maybe a podcast award or something.

Speaker 3 Sure. But like,

Speaker 2 I will win an Oscar.

Speaker 3 You never know. Here you are winning a Grammy and to not be able to really soak in that moment is

Speaker 4 sad. I know.
It really sucked. It really, yeah.

Speaker 4 And I think it's also, there was an element of like, almost like I knew it too, because I was like on the cover of this like magazine the year before where it was like, you know, they did this thing where it was like potential winners or like breakthrough artists or or whatever the year before.

Speaker 4 And so I asked to not be submitted the next year because I was like, people are going to say that I'm not new because I was like on the magazine cover last year. And I was like, I don't want that.

Speaker 4 And there were so many other talented people. I remember being like, I don't want to be submitted.
I don't even want this because I feel like people are going to be mad.

Speaker 4 And then I got submitted anyway. And then I won.
And then so there was an element of like, I knew it and I just let it get to me. And I just wish that I didn't.

Speaker 4 I wish I just went up there and enjoyed myself and just didn't say anything because I like posted something about it. I felt like I needed to apologize, even though I didn't do anything wrong.

Speaker 4 You know, so that's, yeah, that's the one regret that I have is not, not taking in that moment because you're drowning out the noise of those things again, right?

Speaker 4 Like that's just such a once-in-a-lifetime thing for so many people. I didn't think I'd get it once, let alone that ever happening again.
So I don't know if there will ever be a do-over.

Speaker 4 And so I just wish that I just would have soaked in it.

Speaker 3 Are you, are you able to appreciate it more now?

Speaker 3 Or has it always kind of been, or is that memory of that difficult time?

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, the honor itself is still incredible.
And I try really hard to focus on that.

Speaker 4 But I think the memories of that time when I look back, rather than being exciting, are like kind of sad and are a little tainted. But I try to just like focus on, you know.

Speaker 4 the moment before all of that and like how good it felt when they said my name for that concept.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because the internet, man, when it, when the internet comes for you, it feels so overwhelming.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And they never let you forget it.
You'd think that they would let it go. I still get like tweets about it today of like, we'll never forget.
Like, you took this award from this person.

Speaker 3 And it's just like, I had no fucking control over it. Yeah, like, I don't know what I did.

Speaker 4 And it's tricky with that one, too. And I find that there's so much discourse on best new artist because the people will say, well, that person's not new.
But it's not about being a brand new artist.

Speaker 4 It's not like this person decided to be an artist yesterday and then they won the award.

Speaker 4 I think I always thought they should call it like best breakthrough artist, you know, rather than best new artist. That would, that would take away a lot of that like discourse.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Cause everybody who's been nominated has been an artist for years.

Speaker 3 You know, Natalie is well more versed in music in general. Like it's, I'm actually

Speaker 3 well, not even that. Like she can listen to a song once or twice and know all the words to a song.
Like she really connects with the lyrics. Like it's really impressive.

Speaker 3 And I'm definitely more like, you know, top 40s where it's just like, once it goes, you know, because I think there are different types of music fans, right? Of course.

Speaker 3 You know, like to your point where it's just like, you'll have fans that like they're, they're there from the ground up like they are waiting for any type of preview any type of early release or drop and then there's fans like me like when it becomes more mainstream and i start listening to it where and i think the music business is more you know tailored to that so like when you're winning that best new artist there's probably a hand a lot of fans who are like who have been enjoying the music for a while have been listening or have been paying attention and for and to them it doesn't feel new yeah exactly but to the

Speaker 3 majority, the masses, it's, yeah, it's, it's best new art. You know, it's like, yeah, she's new.
I've just started hearing this. I really started just enjoying her music.

Speaker 3 And so it is kind of fascinating that way. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So it is strange. And it's like, listen, nobody's.
Nobody who decided to be an artist the day before or like a couple of weeks before is going to be at the Grammys.

Speaker 4 There's so much work that goes into it. You have to be an artist for years.
And it's just like, what, what is classified as like a real artist? Is it when you make it to top 40?

Speaker 4 Is it, so that's why I always thought they should just change it to like best breakthrough. because it's like, yeah, you've been an artist for a while and you've had a great, you had a big year.

Speaker 4 This was your year where you broke through and, you know, the general public now knows who you are and celebrates you. So yeah, it's just interesting.

Speaker 4 It's just so weird, all the politics and dynamics of it. But I do appreciate it, I think, more now now that I'm more removed.

Speaker 3 And was that part of maybe the little hiatus that made you fall out of love with the industry?

Speaker 4 Probably contributed to it. Yeah.
I wouldn't say it's like in any way directly the reason because I still continued on a couple years after that to tour.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I was very happy with things after that but um it probably contributed yeah because it's just like it just doesn't make you feel good a lot of this industry doesn't make you feel good I don't think it's meant to like I think they it's like designed to not make you feel good about yourself or something it's very strange um so that you kind of I guess keep going or keep trying to be better so yeah it's very challenging.

Speaker 2 I feel like that scenario has unfortunately happened several times to a lot of artists.

Speaker 2 Is that something that you've been able to connect with anyone about or have any sort of like relatability with anyone?

Speaker 4 I mean, probably not as much as I would like to. I don't really, I talked to like a few artists.

Speaker 4 I have a few friends who are also artists and I've spoken with them a little bit about it, but I never really had any like mentors going into this or any people that I could really, really bond with.

Speaker 4 And I think that was just a result of me not really going to many places. I don't live in the state.
So it's just hard to connect with people.

Speaker 4 So I think that was an element to it too, where I didn't really have many people to speak to.

Speaker 4 And a few artists did reach out to me that night and were very kind but you know i i've really i've rarely had like in-depth conversations with other with peers and i would like to i just like i think i'm just removed from it a little bit and so it's hard to like connect you know we saw online last night you performed uh was it a couple nights ago or was it last night it was oh my god when was it a couple nightsday night right yeah was that like your first live performance in a while yes first live performance in two years in terms of recording in the the studio versus like recording live in front of a crowd, do you have a preference?

Speaker 4 I mean, both are totally different. And I love both for different reasons.
I love the energy of a live crowd.

Speaker 4 I love the fact that you can redo a take in the studio rather than, you know, when you're doing it live, you can't redo anything. A note's going to come out, how it's going to come out.

Speaker 4 You might forget a lyric. But I think the adrenaline of that is really fun.
And I enjoy the like, I don't know, the feeling that that gives me. But I think they're both totally different.

Speaker 4 Like, there's like a side to me that I just love being a writer. I love being like tucked away and, you know, cracking the code of a song is like the most gratifying feeling.

Speaker 4 But then it's just as gratifying to like see the results of that time put in and hear people like singing the words back. It's very, it's so cool.

Speaker 3 So both, I guess. And when, and you'll be touring coming up?

Speaker 4 Yes. Yeah.
I just announced it yesterday. Um, I'm going on a world tour, my first world tour on my own, which will be so fun.
I'm going to like Australia, Asia, North America, um, Europe. So

Speaker 4 so many places I've never been.

Speaker 3 And more excitement than nerves surrounding that?

Speaker 4 I think so. I think more excitement.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'll probably be nervous the first few shows, but then once I get like the set list down and we kind of get it in our bodies, I think we'll be, you know, ready.

Speaker 3 Do you have any like pre-show rituals that you used to do?

Speaker 4 Or I do. I actually have the same one.
And it's literally, we just get in a circle, we say like words of wisdom, and then we say pre-show ritual. Because we didn't have a ritual.

Speaker 4 So we just first, my first night ever performing, I was like, I don't have a ritual. And they were calling us on stage.
And I was like, okay, pre-show ritual. And that show went great.

Speaker 4 And so I'm just a very superstitious person. So now for the last 10 years, that's been my view show ritual.
I just say pre-show ritual.

Speaker 2 1-800 with Logic was a crazy important part of culture. I feel like that was, I mean, for someone who has experienced life in that realm, you know, I feel like that was huge for me.

Speaker 2 How important was that to you? And like, how did that even that collaboration even come about?

Speaker 4 Well, it came about

Speaker 4 and I think 2018 or 2017,

Speaker 4 Logic and I were on the same label, Def Jam. And he just reached out to me and said, hey, I have this song that I think will be super important.
Like, I love your message.

Speaker 4 I had, you know, released Scars to You Beautiful, which is another kind of socially conscious sort of song. And so he thought I'd be good for it.
And I loved it.

Speaker 4 I thought it was like really touching and important. And so I wrote my verse.
and sent it to him and it kind of took off in a really beautiful, special way.

Speaker 4 And that song is something that I always hold so dear to me just because of what it's done for people um and i i still you know get people talking about it today and it it means a lot to have just been a small part of that song because i think it's super necessary to have those discussions because it's such a real thing and it's really a huge thing you know it's it's very present in the world and i just don't know if it always gets talked about because of its subject matter i understand it's very dark but i think these conversations are necessary yeah yeah to just let people know they're not alone.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's no answer to it. Just that sense of comfort, you know, it's like that we're in the same boat feeling that that in itself is pacifying enough to get someone through something.

Speaker 4 You don't even need to give them like an answer. It's just like, I'm here with you.
I've been there before, you know?

Speaker 2 Because I feel like that feeling

Speaker 3 of,

Speaker 2 you know, wanting to take your own life comes from a sense of aloneness. It comes from a sense of like, I don't belong here.
I'm the only one who's feeling this.

Speaker 2 So yeah, to put out this song and have these two huge. celebrities, these two huge artists be like, we get you, we see you.

Speaker 2 Like, here is the help that you can go to if you you need this was like was was crazy important oh so i give you i give you big props for that that was huge and i remember the the performance at the mtv awards too like that was that was so that was crazy to lead to that was really funny that was yeah was that one of your favorite collabs i know you've you've written with john mare

Speaker 4 um yes well he he played a solo on one of my songs yeah it which is craz on obvious actually i heard you singing

Speaker 4 um yeah so yeah that's definitely one of my favorites just because of you know what it's meant to people, you know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's meant a lot to me to see that. And just knowing that it meant a lot to other people is like super.

Speaker 3 Do you have, have you fantasized meant any other collab that you would want to do or you just kind of leave it open to the to the universe? To the universe.

Speaker 4 I mean, there's so many. John Mayer honestly was on my bucket list for so long.
So getting to do this song with him was like.

Speaker 4 such a dream.

Speaker 4 And I was in the studio with him too, which I don't get to do very often.

Speaker 4 I don't, you know, a lot of the times in this modern world, you kind of like, we'll send a verse back or you kind of work remotely.

Speaker 4 But getting to watch him in the studio, like, kind of figure out the puzzle pieces of that solo was so cool. And he's incredible.
So that was a dream. But there's so many others.

Speaker 4 I mean, I love like Stevie Nicks, would be like, this is like shooting for the stars, like Stevie Nick, Stevie Wonder, all the Stevies. I love both Stevie's.

Speaker 3 Stevie Nicks could be, I can see you. Yeah, the voices would be fun.

Speaker 4 I love her. Yeah, she's an idol of mine.
That would be so cool.

Speaker 3 And when you were working with John, do you guys talk about, you know, because you wrote this album, he obviously obviously does a lot of writing for his stuff.

Speaker 3 Do you guys not only talk about just the music in general, but the writing process?

Speaker 4 For sure. Yeah.
Yeah. He's, he's been really, really cool to me.
And I've, I've gathered so many little like gems through our conversations about songwriting and about music that I've taken with me.

Speaker 4 You know, he was like the first and only person who said, you know, like, just like tell the story, say the thing.

Speaker 4 Don't try to impress yourself as a writer, which is so interesting because I do feel like when you're a writer, you try try to say the thing in the most interesting way.

Speaker 4 And like, how can I be different? And you tend to overcomplicate things. And him just saying, just say the thing, say, or I don't know if that's exactly how he said it.

Speaker 4 I'm probably butchering his beautiful words. But yeah, he was like, just don't try to impress yourself.
You know, just say it as it is.

Speaker 4 And oftentimes the simplest thing will be the thing that hits the most. And I always take that with me.
And it's so true. Like, that's the stuff.

Speaker 4 The lyric that you think is like a throwaway or like, oh, maybe that's too simple is always the one that like gets to people in the core, you know, because you're talking, you're speaking speaking universally you're not just like trying to do a magic trick you know with with your words you know you mentioned obvious is one of your favorites on the album like what are some of your other like ones that you've gone back to and and it really connects with you or i mean i'm you must love them all but for sure do you have ones that are that are at the top they're at the top i think it changes i do love this song called fire

Speaker 4 um that's one of my favorites it's like one of those songs that just like fell out of all of us it was like we we put a mic in the middle of the room it It was, you know, John Levine, Jake Torrey, and I on a few different instruments.

Speaker 4 I had a mic, and we just like looped this same few chords over and over again until like the song just came out.

Speaker 4 Um, there's like an hour recording somewhere of this moment, of this time, but yeah, it was one of those songs that just came out and it was like strictly intuitive, nothing analytical about it.

Speaker 4 And I think that's why it just feels really special. So every time I listen to it, it just, I don't know, it just feels like it comes from a different place inside me.

Speaker 4 I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, I love that song.

Speaker 3 Were you a a guest host on RuPaul's drag race?

Speaker 4 Yes. In Canada, yeah, Canada.
So I didn't get to meet RuPaul, which is so sad, but I got to meet some incredible, incredible drag queens.

Speaker 3 Are you a fan of the show? Like, our audience loves pop culture, reality TV, just

Speaker 3 reality TV.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do. Yeah, I watch it.
Can we ask someone? What are some of your favorites?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I love Love is Blind. I'm a bachelor.
Well, I haven't watched The Bachelor or Bachelorette in quite a long time, but around your era, I watched it, loved it.

Speaker 3 A new one. I think the new season of Love is Blind because it's a season.
Yeah, it just came out. I know.

Speaker 4 No, I'm so excited. It's the most insane show ever.
I love it, though. I'm trying to get into Housewives.
I've never seen Housewives before, so I am like fully blanking on it.

Speaker 3 Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City.

Speaker 4 That's what everybody says. Salt Lake City.

Speaker 3 If you're going to pick, if you are going to start with one.

Speaker 4 Okay, okay. Salt Lake City.

Speaker 2 Start with Rihanna's favorite. Is that hers? Her favorite is Salt Lake City.

Speaker 4 Okay, then I must.

Speaker 3 You have to start with her favorite. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You have to. What else do I watch just like a ton of reality TV? I'm trying to think of other ones.

Speaker 3 I'm blanking on everybody.

Speaker 3 Do you think like the idea, like Love is Blind, the idea of falling in love with someone behind a screen?

Speaker 4 I don't know about that.

Speaker 4 I mean, hey, maybe. I feel like you can definitely connect with someone, you know, spiritually, emotionally.
But let's be real. I think attraction has to

Speaker 3 play a role, right? Yeah. Right? I don't know.
Like, even just chemistry. Like, you can't through a wall.

Speaker 4 You can't feel that like chemistry. You can't, I don't know.
Someone smile, the way someone looks at you.

Speaker 3 Like, those little nuances are important i think the most awkward moment of that show is when they propose and they're like it's usually the woman standing there behind like facing a screen and the guys on anger i actually can't it's ridiculous but i love it i feel so uncomfortable i know i almost can't watch but i'm obsessed i eat it up every time i love it i feel like it's because the stakes are so high it's like yeah they're getting married like i know the only other thing would be like okay baby yeah like it's the married thing the getting engaged before you see each other is crazy.

Speaker 4 I totally get, like, that would be cool to be like, hey, can you be, you want to be my girlfriend? Cool. Like, that would be sick.
Cause then there's no. It's on the date.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 It's like the, I'm in love with you. You're the love of my life.
Marry me without seeing them. And it's like only been two weeks or something, right?

Speaker 3 I don't think it's even that long. We got lucky enough to, we went and visited the set where they film.
The pods. And we like, our, our daughter was like.
two or three months at the time. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 And we did the

Speaker 3 whole like reveal walkout. We kind of pretended.

Speaker 3 That's a long walk, too. So it's like you have some time to be like, oh, fuck.
I don't know if that's what I'm first. I get why, like, remember, was it

Speaker 3 Chelsea when she ran?

Speaker 2 Oh, Chelsea. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 I would so run.

Speaker 4 100%. I would run.

Speaker 3 You know, because you don't realize how far it's going to go.

Speaker 4 I totally, yeah. And I just feel like, can you even really get super, super real if there's.

Speaker 3 cameras that well i guess you can attest to it if if like are you able to even really let go when there's like a crew because i imagine there's a crew of people there no there is and having not done love is blind but you're you're you're surprised just how quickly you kind of forget about cameras and things like that really

Speaker 3 interesting I guess yeah I kind of such an intense environment you know and like you really if you are one of those people who like connects with someone they do a good job of creating these environments that like

Speaker 3 make you think you have nothing else going on but this connection and you really have to protect it and you just you kind of you're really immersed into like an experiment it's really fascinating that's very strange wow interesting in another life because i know obviously you have your career you have a relationship you're very happy about but like in another life if if there's a reality tv show concept that you think it would be fun to do if you were just like a contestant what what would it what would that be oh my god certainly nothing with i would never do a dating show ever in a million years i would love i mean i've always loved survivor but i don't think i would make it but i low-key would love to do survivor just like be on island do those games i just don't feel like i have it in me to be like deceitful yeah i feel like i would just spill the beans or i i wouldn't be i don't have that like i found a shield sorry yeah

Speaker 4 i don't know if i could do it but i would love to do like survivor are you watching traders at all i oh i saw one i saw the first episode recently i had like a couple of

Speaker 3 that it's like which i kind of love it was like it's really good like everyone knows it's a game but there is a lot of like very like a la survivor where you like you have to be manipulative i don't know and it's like this weird thing where you're like I know it's only a game, but you're really good at that.

Speaker 3 And like, I think you can tell some characters are more nervous about playing the game than others. Yeah, like you have it in.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because then I feel like I'd psych myself out. Like, why are you so good at this? And then, you know, I don't know.
I don't know if I, if I could do it, but that would be kind of fun to attempt.

Speaker 4 But I feel like I'd get fooled by everyone. I'm going to be like easily convinced, I feel.
Or I'd be the opposite where I think everybody's lying to me. So it'd be tough.

Speaker 4 But I did see the first episode of season one. I started fresh.

Speaker 3 And it was really cool. That's really good.
Survivor, I don't think I'm too picky of an eater.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah, true. True, true.
You're not into like the, you wouldn't like catch a fish in the ocean and eat it and get over your little campfire.

Speaker 3 I think eating is literally a love language of mine. Like, I can be, I am particular, but the things I enjoy eating, like, I love tasting food, you know, and like, I, I need to enjoy eating.

Speaker 3 Like, I can't just eat for the sake of getting like calories. Yeah, you have to enjoy it.
It, like, mentally affects me if I'm not enjoying food.

Speaker 4 I feel, I actually, yeah, I never really thought about that, but I think I agree with you.

Speaker 2 Food is a love language. Yeah, it is.
Going back really quickly to your debut album, has it been the 10-year anniversary yet or not yet?

Speaker 3 Not quite yet.

Speaker 4 I think in a couple of months. In a month,

Speaker 3 April?

Speaker 4 I think March or April. April.

Speaker 3 Yeah, soon.

Speaker 3 Soon.

Speaker 2 Do you have plans to celebrate that?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think I'm just going to be on tour.

Speaker 4 So I'll probably just be celebrating with the new album and maybe playing a couple songs from that record, which would be really cool i haven't thought about it in detail yet i just can't believe it's coming up and it's coming so fast

Speaker 2 crazy yeah i feel like i i mean obviously we all

Speaker 2 change throughout life we all make mistakes we grow we learn we have different seasons i honestly don't even relate to the person i was before i became a mom oh yeah um so like is there parts of you that still see yourself in your 18 year old self releasing that album or are you kind of like i have just grown so much from who that person was?

Speaker 4 It's a bit of both. It's interesting because I will, you know, come across like an old interview or even just some of that old music.
And like so much of that DNA is still in me.

Speaker 4 Like I recognize who I'm looking at and who I'm hearing.

Speaker 4 And there's still things that I've taken with me, you know, just like my general personality, the default mechanisms that I have are still the same. I think I'm just better at like dealing with them.

Speaker 4 I have more tools to figure out how to navigate them. But there's also this other side to it where I'm just like, who is this person? Yeah.
Even down to the way that I would talk.

Speaker 4 Like, I feel like I had this like weird Toronto accent happening that I'm like, that I don't have anymore. I'm like, who, why did I talk? Like, I used to talk like that.

Speaker 4 Like, I guess I've just spent so much time all over that I've lost it. But it's just so interesting.
It's like you feel like you're looking at somebody else.

Speaker 4 And some of those songs too, like, you know, of course, like you, you cringe a little bit. Cause imagine, like, you know, those videos that a lot of us made of like ourselves singing?

Speaker 4 No, I can't picture that, but like, that's your career and it's out in the public forever.

Speaker 3 It's really

Speaker 4 like a lot of my trial, like my putting up a video, you know, for the world is like on an album. And the way my voice sounded is like plastered there forever.

Speaker 3 So nothing's as embarrassing as going on reality TV and taking risks and having that be on.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think like the like filming yourself like dancing in front of your cousins and your mom to like get a sleepover that night. You know, it was like, mom, watch our

Speaker 3 TV made up.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And then like that being what the world is watching, you know.

Speaker 4 Forever. Yeah.

Speaker 3 That's it's very strange. You're just like, I don't know.

Speaker 4 I'm sure. Yeah, because reality TV is like,

Speaker 4 yeah, I guess it's like you're literally putting all of you out there.

Speaker 4 I guess with my first album, it's like, you know, a portion of things and it's more tailored and there was more time and thought put in, but I imagine.

Speaker 3 So you were in like your 30s.

Speaker 2 Like you don't have that.

Speaker 3 That's even more embarrassing. I get it.
And it's also like relationships and real life, you know, like, you know, Alesia gets to be like, are you, you know, I was 18. I'm like, I was 30.

Speaker 2 She really has, yeah.

Speaker 3 I don't think it was a very, I mean, I thought you were older. So like a movie that like I made me connect with those reality TV moments is a movie called Swingers.
Do you remember that? Swing it.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. And there's that, that scene where he, he meets the girl at the bar, he gets home and he calls her and leaves her a voice note.

Speaker 3 And he's just like going, he's heartbroken over his other girlfriend. And so then he calls her again and leaves another voicemail and kind of just spirals.

Speaker 3 And then she finally answers and she's like, don't ever call me again.

Speaker 3 Like being on on reality TV sometimes feels like I was in a scene like that, you know, where you're like real.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because I think when it comes to love or relationships, I mean, I think we kind of easily forget, but like there, you know, if you've ever been heartbroken or if you've really gone through it, there's times where you remember where you're just like, oh, I was like

Speaker 3 doing that or thinking that or like, I was really not my best self. Like, you know, it is tough to watch your vulnerability back.
For sure. Yeah.
I can't imagine. Yeah.

Speaker 4 It's like I would not, if there were cameras on me during some of my most like down bad times, like I wouldn't want to watch that back. I get it.

Speaker 4 It's like there's this moment captured where now you can look back with 20, 20 eyes and be like, I just so don't agree with that anymore, but it's like they're encapsulated forever.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's strange.

Speaker 3 I mean, music must in its own way be

Speaker 4 probably in like a microcosmic way.

Speaker 4 I feel what you're saying. Yeah, because you're just some stuff you just don't identify with anymore.

Speaker 4 Like you're writing songs about people, about how like, I'm so in love with you or like, I need you. And you're just like, no, that's not how I feel anymore.

Speaker 4 But that's like moment lives there forever. But at least you can look back and think like you didn't manipulate anyone.
You weren't a bad person.

Speaker 4 You just simply were being yourself and were being open and vulnerable and honest. And you can't, you can't be mad about that, you know?

Speaker 3 You're just like, yeah, I can.

Speaker 3 I just, I'm just, I'm glad I have a wife that has no interest in watching it.

Speaker 4 Oh, you've never seen it?

Speaker 3 Never seen it.

Speaker 4 Why would you want to?

Speaker 2 Right. I know.
I'm like watching my husband like fall in love and kiss and like go on romantic dates with another woman.

Speaker 3 I think I'm okay. I'd rather actually

Speaker 2 the cliff notes. I've seen the crazy like things that have happened on the seasons, but I know we have to wrap up soon.
I do have a question about music videos.

Speaker 2 Is that something that you are just as passionate about? Or is that something? Because I feel like music videos have kind of... Obviously, when MTV was, they were all the rage.
It was everything.

Speaker 2 Now they've kind of fallen off, but I feel like they're they're kind of coming back in a way where artists are really putting their heart and soul into their music videos just as much as they did the songs and the album itself.

Speaker 2 Do you feel that same way? Or are you kind of like, eh, could do without?

Speaker 4 No, I really, I love, I love visuals. I feel like they've always been such an important and integral part of my music.

Speaker 4 Just because I grew up loving, you know, MTV and, you know, the Canadian version, Much Music. Hey, shout out Much Music.

Speaker 4 You know, like, I just grew up loving music videos and loving visuals and, you know, sifting through album booklets and looking at all the photos it was something i loved and i know that there are still people out there who love that and like love to indulge in that so i like to give that to them and just even for myself i love building worlds around sounds um even if you know music videos nowadays are are slowly becoming a bit more obsolete like you said i do think they are coming back now with like so much social media people are always looking for a visual um even though maybe those visuals are a lot more quick not maybe three minutes long and maybe now they're more visualizers as they call them now but i do love i just love visuals i think they're important uh just to wrap things up obviously when you know we leave here it's valentine's day but i always love like you know the saying celebrities are just like us but like when you other than obviously you mentioned reality tv but what are your comforts in life when you are not making music when you're not working what are things that you know the normal things that you really enjoy doing that kind of make you feel at home, make you feel connected, just like really give you peace of mind.

Speaker 3 Hmm.

Speaker 4 There's a few things. Honestly, it's it's truly as simple as just like walking around my neighborhood, going to the same coffee shop every day.

Speaker 3 What's your order?

Speaker 4 An oat milk latte, an iced oatmeal latte, no matter what the weather.

Speaker 3 Iced oat milk latte. I'm the opposite.
It can be 95 degrees. I'm getting a hot coffee.
Really? Oh my God. Isn't that terrible? You can feel it going down your chest when it's like.

Speaker 3 It's going to be like sweating. It's humid.
I'm just like drinking.

Speaker 3 No, I'm the complete opposite.

Speaker 4 But yeah, like I've always had that dream of like going into a coffee shop and them knowing my name and knowing my order and that sense of normalcy.

Speaker 2 And knowing it because of you coming in, not because you are who you are.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. Like knowing it because I go in and knowing my order, because I'm there and I'm living, you know, a similar day every day and I'm waking up in the same bed.

Speaker 4 Like those little moments, that sense of stability and normalcy really, really helped me in my life. And I love that.
It just feels like home. And now I have a sense of home to go back to.

Speaker 4 And that routine, you know, walking my dog, things like that, just really, really are so crucial and helpful just in my like psyche and my ability to feel good about things and feel relaxed and comfortable, you know?

Speaker 3 Wow, that's, I love that.

Speaker 3 I know you have to go, but I just want to congratulate you on the new release, the new album, Love and Hyperbole, out Valentine's Day. But when this comes out, it'll be out available for people.

Speaker 3 Out now.

Speaker 3 Thank you for taking the time.

Speaker 3 Congratulations on the album, all the success. It's really exciting for you.

Speaker 3 It's a beautiful album. We really enjoy it.
And I know your fans will as well. So, really appreciate it.
And thank you for your time.

Speaker 4 Thank you guys for your time.

Speaker 3 I appreciate it. Yeah.
Thank you guys for listening. I hope you enjoyed this.
Check out the album, and we will see you tomorrow.