E866 Ask Nick - My Exclusive Non-Boyfriend w/ Mel Robbins

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Speaker 1 What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of Ask Nick. I am your host, Nick.
And boy, do we have a great episode for you.

Speaker 1 Normally, we just started, as you know, kind of jumping right into our calls, but we have a very special guest today, Mel Robbins. Many of you know about her.

Speaker 1 If you haven't, Mel is someone who talks a lot about the stuff we talk about in terms of like personal growth. She has a great message, and so she has a new book out.

Speaker 1 We wanted to invite Mel on to share a little bit about that. We had a fantastic interview with Mel, so we're going to play the first part of it before our callers.

Speaker 1 And then, if you enjoyed that conversation, they're going to play the rest of it after our callers. So, we didn't want to cut any of the great interview with Mel out, but we just kept talking.

Speaker 1 We were going to just have it be an As Nick intro, and then, you know, two podcasters kind of went with it. So, without further ado, Mel Robbins and your callers.

Speaker 1 The very special and very talented and informed Mel Robbins is with us to talk about her new book, Let Them. I was really excited to have Mel on.
Mel, by the way, welcome. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Good to be with you. You guys know I talk so much about your energy, protecting your energy, not wasting your energy.
And I came across Mel and her book.

Speaker 1 Many of you probably listened to her show, follow her. You're probably very excited to have her.

Speaker 1 But when I find people like you, you know, talking in different ways about similar concepts, it's always interesting to kind of invite people like yourself in to see if there's a kind of a different way to articulate the kind of the same ideas, so to speak.

Speaker 1 You know, and I find that, you know, like on this show, I offer a lot of advice. And there isn't an episode where I'm not like, I'm not a therapist, I'm an expert.

Speaker 1 I don't think, you know, I kind of disclose that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Neither am I. Yeah.
But I find that an ability to take a concept and deliver it in a way for people to digest, you know, because it's, you know, through our lived experiences.

Speaker 1 And I'm curious where you kind of got to this place where you were talking about these things because, you know, I understand that you used to be like a legal analyst on CNN.

Speaker 1 And now you are talking about mental health. You're talking about, you know, things like this in your book.

Speaker 1 So how did you go from, you know, where you were in your life, having a legal background to talking about this type of stuff and how it's affecting interpersonal relationships and social dynamics and things like that?

Speaker 3 Simple. I basically fucked up my own life and realized nobody else is going to fix it.

Speaker 3 And if I wanted things to get better and I wanted to be happier and I wanted to get out of debt and I wanted to have better relationships and I didn't want to blow up my marriage or be an alcoholic or be an asshole, that I better figure out how to climb out of the hole I had either fallen into or I had dug for myself, more likely.

Speaker 3 That's how it happened.

Speaker 1 What was that hole?

Speaker 3 Oh, which one do you want to talk about?

Speaker 1 I mean, maybe the one that was kind of like your aha, like your, call it your wake-up call.

Speaker 3 Well, I think the thing that happened that was the biggest turning point in my life, because there have been a number of them. And it takes us back 15 years.

Speaker 3 I was 41, so just a couple of years younger than you are right now. My husband and I, we've been together for 30 years, married for 28.
At the time, we had three kids under the age of 10.

Speaker 3 And my husband had gone into the restaurant business. And the first one was great, a little pizza joint.

Speaker 3 And so like complete idiots, we cashed out our life savings, took out credit cards, home equity lines, because what could go wrong?

Speaker 1 And everything went wrong.

Speaker 3 And I found myself 800 grand in debt, liens on the house, barely able to put gas on the tank. Friends and family had invested.
And people were relying on the paycheck from the restaurant.

Speaker 3 Chris wasn't getting paid. We had no money.
We were facing, like,

Speaker 3 it was unbelievable. Like, never in a million years had I ever imagined a scenario where I would lose everything that I cared about.

Speaker 3 And in these moments, what's interesting is that if you ever find yourself in a moment in life where you are stuck, whether you don't like where your health is or you find yourself in a string of relationships where you're getting treated poorly or you're getting looked over at work or you just don't know what you want to do with your life, the truth is we all know what we need to do.

Speaker 3 Like even when life was crushing down on me, Nick, I knew I shouldn't be drinking for bourbon Manhattan's every night.

Speaker 3 I knew that when the alarm rang, I should get out of bed and get the kids ready and get them on the bus. I knew I should call my parents and ask for help.

Speaker 3 I knew I should tell my friends what was going on. I knew I should look for a job because that would help.

Speaker 3 I knew I shouldn't be screaming at Chris, but I couldn't stop myself from doing things that were self-destructive.

Speaker 3 And I couldn't push myself for some reason to do the simple things that I knew I needed to do. And this is the crux of all of my work.

Speaker 3 So I find myself in a moment in my life where I knew what I could be doing. I could stop drinking.
I could look for a job. I could control my emotions.
I could focus on the kids.

Speaker 3 I could stop screaming at my husband. I could ask for help.
I didn't do any of it because knowing what you need to do is the first part.

Speaker 3 That's the easy part.

Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 The hard part is how do you make yourself do it? And this is hard because we all just let our emotions dictate what we do.

Speaker 3 And, you know, everybody talks about motivation and willpower and all this bullshit. Motivation is complete garbage because it's never there when you need it.

Speaker 3 Motivation means feeling like doing something.

Speaker 3 And if motivation were on demand, everybody would have six pack abs and a million dollars in the bank and the world's best business and a wonderful marriage.

Speaker 3 And the reason why it is hard to change is because we are hardwired to default to what feels easy right now because we are dictated by our emotions and our feelings in the moment. And that was me.

Speaker 3 Like the alarm would go off every single morning, Nick. I knew I needed to get out of bed.

Speaker 3 I knew that hitting the snooze button six times every morning and laying there like a human pot roast marinating in all my problems and fears was not going to magically solve them.

Speaker 3 I knew that as the bills were piling up on that counter, that if I ignored them, it didn't mean some unicorn was going to fly in and suddenly pay them. But I didn't feel like getting out of bed.

Speaker 3 I was scared to open the bills.

Speaker 3 And I stayed in this trap of this tension of knowing that I had to do something, but I couldn't access the feelings of courage or motivation or whatever it is, or even just this hope that it would make a difference.

Speaker 3 And over the last 15 years, I think that's the single thing that I've noticed having 21 million followers, this massive podcast, all of the speaking that I've done around the world, the books that I've written, the research that I do, is that if you are missing hope, if you actually don't think this little thing is going to work for you, you will not do it.

Speaker 3 And so for me, lying in bed every morning, I was caught between knowing what I needed to do and just not feeling like doing it. And it all changed one night when I was watching TV.

Speaker 3 And I don't know if you've ever been in a moment,

Speaker 3 maybe it was on the bachelor, maybe it was after the bachelor, where you actually give yourself a pep talk. And, you know, it's one thing for you and I to talk.

Speaker 3 It's a whole nother thing when you give yourself that talk and you're like, all right, that's it. Tomorrow morning, it's the new UML.

Speaker 1 No more drinking.

Speaker 3 You know, you're not going to be like screaming at people.

Speaker 1 You're not going to do this.

Speaker 3 You're not going to do that. When I was a walking red flag in my 20s, I would have that talk.
I'm like, no more, no more sleeping around, no more cheating on people, no more lying.

Speaker 3 You know, you got to, you got to study Mel and not pull all these all-nighters. And so I'm having this talk with myself at 41, and I'm listing off things.

Speaker 3 You got to stop drinking, stop saying, you got to find a job, you got to do this, you got to do this.

Speaker 3 And I ended by saying, and by God, woman, when that alarm rings, you have to get your ass out of bed.

Speaker 3 And at that very moment, Nick, a rocket ship launched across the television screen and it gave me this crazy idea. I thought, oh my God, that's it.

Speaker 3 Tomorrow morning, when that alarm rings, Mel, you're going to launch yourself out of bed so fast that you're not going to be in that bed when that anxiety pins you there like a gravity blanket. Sure.

Speaker 3 Now, I had had four bourbon Manhattans that night. So that's probably what gave me the idea, right?

Speaker 3 I actually think it was divine intervention, but the next morning, it was a Tuesday morning in February outside of Boston, Massachusetts. And you are one decision away from a different life.

Speaker 3 One decision is the first domino that falls and tips everything in a whole new direction.

Speaker 3 And the cool thing about dominoes is that the first one knocks over the second one, but the two together can actually knock over a domino that's like 10 times the size.

Speaker 1 That force multiplier.

Speaker 3 Yes, because of the momentum of the forward action. And so there was a decision that I made that morning, and I'm going to explain this because once you see this, you will never unsee this.

Speaker 3 There is a habit that we all have that is holding you back from making the changes and showing up with courage courage and doing the simple, small things that don't feel so simple in the moment, that change everything.

Speaker 3 And that habit is hesitation. And so the alarm rings, right? And I immediately remembered that dumb idea of launching out of bed.
But then I made this fatal mistake. I paused and I hesitated.

Speaker 3 And when you stop and you hesitate, when you know what you should do or you have an impulse, It opens up this five second window of reflection where you now start thinking about what you need to do instead of doing what you need to do.

Speaker 3 And as you start thinking inside this little window of time comes excuse, doubt, anxiety, procrastination.

Speaker 3 And what's happening, I know this now, I did not know this then, is that in this little moment where you're thinking, it's cold, it's dark, I don't feel like it. How the hell is this going to help?

Speaker 3 I don't want to. And you start reaching for the snooze button because that's always what you've done.

Speaker 3 You go from this part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, where you're in charge, to defaulting to what you always do. All of the self-sabotaging behavior takes over in less than five seconds.

Speaker 3 In fact, I believe just like if you drop food on the floor, you got five seconds to pick it up or the floor contaminates the food, your brain does the same thing.

Speaker 3 You have five seconds to move on any idea or your brain will contaminate your will to move. And so I counted that morning, five, four, three, two, one.
And something crazy happened. I stood up.

Speaker 3 And that was the beginning of a completely different life. And it was the beginning of a skill that everybody needs to learn and that everybody can learn.

Speaker 3 And that skill is the ability to push yourself 54321 to do something that is scary or that makes you nervous or that you don't feel like doing.

Speaker 3 Because when you learn how to override your emotion in the moment by taking the actions that align with what you want, you now understand the secret to everything.

Speaker 3 See, the people that have what you want in life, they're not special. They're not different than you.
They're just willing. Yeah.
Well, it's not even willing.

Speaker 3 They know that if you can get out of bed on a cold morning, you can do anything. If you can not look at your phone first thing, you can do anything.

Speaker 3 If you can not pick up the alcohol because you said you weren't going to drink tonight, you can do anything because you are exhibiting a skill of being able to override emotion and excuse and fear and doubt and everything else that we label it and take the actions that align with what you want.

Speaker 3 And that is the same skill that will make you happier. It's the same skill that will get you paid more at work.

Speaker 3 It is the same skill that will allow you to walk across the bar and walk up to somebody instead of standing there like an idiot in the corner, wishing somebody would come over and then telling yourself some story that nobody likes you.

Speaker 3 54321, you can push through the things that are holding you back and you can push yourself toward the things that you want.

Speaker 3 And that's exactly how I have gone from 800,000 in debt, struggling with drinking, raging at my husband, to building one of the most successful businesses in this space on the planet as a 56-year-old woman.

Speaker 3 And how I did it wasn't glamorous.

Speaker 3 It was fucking grueling because yes, you change your life with one decision, but then you got to wake up every day and prove it to yourself doing the small, tedious, invisible, boring crap that nobody wants to do.

Speaker 3 And there's so much research on this. It's really fascinating.
Like if you're somebody that starts a lot of stuff, you know, you don't have trouble like I did starting.

Speaker 3 You have trouble staying with it.

Speaker 3 There's really interesting research around this. There's a fitness app called Strava.
So anybody, you know, if you're listening to us right now and you're a runner, you'll know that app.

Speaker 3 Well, they've done this crazy study where they've crunched like 800 million pieces of data and they have determined the exact day

Speaker 3 that most people quit on a new fitness goal. And it's day 19.
19. Yep.
It's called Quitter's Day.

Speaker 1 Why 19?

Speaker 3 Well, the reason why is because when you first start something, it's fun and exciting. Like let's just take fitness, right?

Speaker 3 We buy all the stuff, we join the gym, you're going, you're kind of getting the result. By day 19, you're not seeing the result.

Speaker 1 Or you plateaued a little bit.

Speaker 3 Yeah, or you plateaued a little bit. And now you're bored.
And now the emotions you're combating is you're not patient.

Speaker 1 You're bored.

Speaker 3 You are tired of doing the grueling thing. And you haven't developed the muscle yet of just ignoring that and 5-4-3-2-1, sticking with it.

Speaker 3 And that's the point, this point where it gets boring and you're not quite seeing the spike and the dopamine hit isn't as great because you're getting used to it.

Speaker 3 That's the point that really separates people that talk about what they want from people who actually stick with it.

Speaker 3 And I do think that 99% of success and achieving what you want in life is simply not quitting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I'd agree. I mean, I'll tell a lot of people, especially out in L.A., like, it's just a long game.
It's everywhere. Being successful in L.A.
is outlasting people.

Speaker 3 Well, dude, I live in Vermont. I've been at this 15 years.
So I don't live here and it's still a long game. It's true everywhere.

Speaker 3 And it's just difficult here or difficult in cities or difficult if you spend way too much of your precious time staring at everybody else's life online. It's just difficult because it's in your face.

Speaker 3 And so you get to choose, though. And this is what we're going to talk about because my work is basically in two categories.
The first one is the tools you can use.

Speaker 3 to get out of your own way, to push yourself. And the five-second rule, there is nothing better.
This is spread around the world. It is used in all kinds of settings, clinical settings.

Speaker 3 I know over a thousand people have stopped themselves from committing suicide by counting 54321 and asking for help. This is used by psychiatrists.

Speaker 3 It's super effective with helping people reprogram triggers associated with PTSD, OCD. Pediatricians use it to help kids with anxiety because it is a pattern interrupter.

Speaker 3 And one thing I want you to hear is that if you feel broken or lost in life, you're not.

Speaker 1 broken.

Speaker 3 You have patterns of behavior that have probably been in place for a long time, patterns that other people taught you, which means you're not responsible for those patterns, but you have patterns of behavior that are broken based on where you are now.

Speaker 3 And the truth about human beings is that we are just wired to learn patterns. And if you don't break a pattern and replace it, a pattern repeats.

Speaker 1 So like just like, for example, like one day you count five, four, three, two, one. Maybe you break the pattern that day, but you're saying you need to incorporate it with something else.

Speaker 1 Otherwise, the next day you'll just be susceptible to.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. And here's the the other thing I'm going to tell you.
So I invented something to help me get out of bed. I have been getting out of bed when the alarm rings now for 15 years.

Speaker 3 It is still not a habit. You want to know why?

Speaker 1 I don't like it.

Speaker 3 See, I think all the research around habits bullshit. You know, you hear what people say it takes 21 days.
I think that's only if you like it.

Speaker 3 You know, there are a lot of things in life that are not a habit of mine. I just do them.
Like, I don't like unloading the dishwasher. Five for three.
I do it.

Speaker 3 I don't like picking up the dog poop and the art. I do it.

Speaker 3 You're either the kind of person that, in a moment where you know you need to do something, you don't stop and second-guess yourself, you do it, or you stop and you think about it.

Speaker 3 And I'm not talking big decisions because big decisions you should stop and think about, and you should really think about the pros and the cons, and then align with your values or whatever you want, and then make the decision.

Speaker 3 But small things, like a lot of people have a hard time speaking up at work because they're nervous about looking stupid. And so, if you sit in a meeting

Speaker 3 you say because you're introverted or maybe because you are just nervous and you feel like an imposter there, if you have something to say in a meeting, there's two people, people who say it or people who stop and think about saying it and then beat themselves up later because they didn't say it.

Speaker 3 Sure.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm thinking about this right now and I'm thinking I've been both people. I mean, I'm sure most people have been both people.
We have all.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 And so if you think about the most famous tagline in the world, it's Nike.

Speaker 3 Just do it. And if you think about those three words, just do it.
What is the most powerful of those three words?

Speaker 1 Just.

Speaker 3 Yes. Imagine if their tagline had been do it.
That's not that inspiring.

Speaker 1 Sure. That makes sense.

Speaker 3 Just

Speaker 3 do it is acknowledging your humanity. It's acknowledging your dreams and your goals and the things that you're capable of.
See, Nike knows that you're standing on the sidelines in the game of life.

Speaker 3 They see you questioning yourself. They see how much you want to jump in the game.
And so they are calling you through the doubt and through the excuses and inviting you to jump in.

Speaker 3 Just is the most powerful part because most of us are stopping ourselves right now. The only obstacle that you have is the ones that you're placing in front of yourself.

Speaker 3 And that brings me to the second part of what I focus on in my work because the five second rule is your own personal just kick in the ass. It's like instant motivation, instant confidence.

Speaker 3 It pushes you through in those small, quiet quiet moments where you give up on yourself.

Speaker 1 I was thinking, hearing you talk, and I'm curious if you experience this too.

Speaker 1 I find that like when people listen to advice, whether it's at this show or your show, they have a way of interpreting it in the manner in which serves them best in that moment.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like, well, you told me to do this. I'm like, yeah, well, I didn't mean it like that, you know? And I'm thinking about like the kind of the just do it, the, you know, just get up.

Speaker 1 In kind of the. context of a lot of our listeners on the show who are out there dating, seeking love, hanging out in a situationship with someone they've been wasting a lot of time.

Speaker 1 A lot of the stuff we talk about in this show is, I mean, I guess it is doing something, but it's a lot of not doing something.

Speaker 1 Not investing in things that aren't serving you, not reaching out to the person you know you shouldn't reach out to, not ruminating over the relationship that's been over for four months, but you're just choosing to mentally live in that space.

Speaker 1 Yeah. How do you, and when you're giving advice, I mean, you can't really control how people think and apply what you're teaching them.
But yeah, I find that often it's like even like therapy.

Speaker 1 It's like you can, you know, it's like, well, what a therapist, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I don't think your therapist meant it that way type of thing.
You know, it's like,

Speaker 1 how do you make sure, how as people, when we hear advice, how do we ensure that when we're taking this advice, we don't like, I'm thinking out loud, like the 54321 could be applied to be like, oh, well, Mel told me to text him kind of thing.

Speaker 1 Well, I should have just do it.

Speaker 3 You know, the let them theory is what you need.

Speaker 1 What is the let them theory?

Speaker 3 So the let them theory is the single most powerful thing I've ever discovered. It is a simple mindset tool that immediately reveals what's in your control and what's not.

Speaker 3 And any psychologist will tell you, when you spend time and energy worrying about or trying to manage something that is not in your control and never will be, it creates stress, frustration, and insecurity for you.

Speaker 3 And the number one thing that will never be in your control is what another human being thinks, says, does, or feels, period.

Speaker 3 And the biggest problem for people that are dating is that you are pouring all your time and energy and giving all of your power to other people and you will never be able to control them.

Speaker 3 And the irony of this whole thing, and it's so fucking sad, is that you actually have all the power,

Speaker 3 but you're giving it away. And so if you're in a situationship or if you keep sleeping with somebody who slinks out the door like a cat in the morning, the problem isn't them.
The problem is you.

Speaker 3 And you're going to use the let them theory. very quickly to learn the world's simplest and most powerful boundary that you can use with two simple words, let them.

Speaker 3 People reveal who they are and where you stand in their life based on their behavior. Let them reveal who they are.
It is our inability

Speaker 3 to see people clearly through their behavior that keeps you in situations that are beneath you, that are like complete turnoff. There's nothing confusing about people's behavior.

Speaker 3 What is confusing is the way you interpret it. and the fantasy that you live in in your head because you refuse to let people be who they are.

Speaker 1 So how do you let them?

Speaker 1 Say it, let them.

Speaker 3 There's two steps. First, you say let them.

Speaker 3 Anytime somebody's pissing you off or you're questioning like what they're doing or they are, you're worried about them or you're up in your head about something, you're giving your power to them because you're worried about what they're thinking.

Speaker 3 You can't control that. You're worried about when they're going to text you.
You can't control that. You are worried about how they feel about you.
You can't control that. So let them.

Speaker 3 Let them confuse you. Let them leave.
Let them string you along. They're not the problem.

Speaker 3 The fact that you're tolerating this is, because step two is let me, let me remind myself that the power isn't over there. The power is always right here with me.

Speaker 3 Let me remind myself that I am always in control of three things. I can control what I think.
I can control what I do next. I can control how I'm going to process my emotions about this.

Speaker 3 I get to choose who I pour time and energy into.

Speaker 3 And any time and energy you're spending with somebody who is not giving you the respect or the time or the treatment that you deserve, you get to choose if you're going to continue to do that.

Speaker 1 And how do you help motivate yourself? Because I'm thinking about what you're saying and it resonates a lot with what I tell my audience. I just find that a lot of people won't execute, so to speak.

Speaker 3 Well, that's on them.

Speaker 1 Sure, totally.

Speaker 1 But I'm just saying, like, for the people listening, like

Speaker 1 who are stuck just making the same mistake over and over and over.

Speaker 3 If you want to be happy and what you're doing isn't making you happy, at some point, you have to take responsibility for your life.

Speaker 1 So for the people listening, you're just saying it's just a matter of when's enough enough for them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because people only change when they feel like it.

Speaker 3 And what I found in researching this book is that there's an enormous connection between pain and your desire to change. And the reason why pain is important

Speaker 3 is because your brain is wired to move away from things that are painful and you are wired to move toward what is easy. Texting back the person who only texts you when they're bored is easy.

Speaker 3 Saying let them and recognizing that if somebody wanted to see you, they would make plans. If somebody is texting you all the time and it's never going anywhere, you're a convenience.

Speaker 3 I got news for you. They're not interested in you.
And so that's really easy for people because it feels good.

Speaker 3 It distracts you from the fact that you're single and you're home again on another weekend.

Speaker 3 But there is this saying in addiction, and a bunch of the experts talked about this in the book, that people only get sober when being drunk is harder than facing the things that you're afraid to face.

Speaker 3 And a lot of us are terrified to be single. And I understand that.

Speaker 3 If you've wasted a year of your life trying to insert yourself in somebody else's life, if you have accepted less than you deserve for a while, it is terrifying to admit to yourself that you've wasted another year and now you're going to have to step back out there alone and get back out there.

Speaker 3 And it seems easier to try to make this work.

Speaker 3 And it's the refusal to see someone else's behavior as the truth And then to remind yourself, so let them, let them date a ton of other people and not want to put a label on it, which means they don't actually like you.

Speaker 3 That means they want to fuck other people. That's what that means.
Sorry, it's true. But here's the thing.

Speaker 3 Understanding it as a concept is different than having a tool to be able to prompt yourself to act with the truth. And I never had tools.
Like I understood I needed to push myself.

Speaker 3 I understood just do it, but without 54321, I didn't know how.

Speaker 1 Well, if you like what what you've heard and you want to hear more, again, we're going to finish this interview with Mel after these callers.

Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Hi, I'm good. I'm Hallie.
I'm 25, and I have feelings for my friend who has a long-distance girlfriend. And I don't know if I should tell him or how to handle it.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Tell me about this friendship.

Speaker 4 Okay. So we met through work.
We were interns together. And then we like started our actual jobs and everything.
And we were just like casual friends for a couple years.

Speaker 4 And then about a year and a half ago, me and my ex-boyfriend broke up and we just started getting closer. Like his girlfriend's long distance.
So he was very platonic.

Speaker 4 Like I was never even really attracted to him.

Speaker 4 So he was kind of just a good friend to like give me advice and like be there for me during my breakup, like literally at the office, like we'd be getting coffee and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 It wasn't like hanging out on our own or anything. And then over time, it just kind of developed into like a closer bond.

Speaker 4 And I feel like the last maybe six months, we've just been hanging out a lot more in actual like friendship ways. I don't know.
Like I think it was probably two months ago.

Speaker 4 I was just out with him after like a work event and it just kind of hit me and I was like, oh, I like think I have feelings for this guy.

Speaker 4 And I told my friends and they were like, yeah, like we can tell. And my friends are like my.
like family basically. So they know me so well.

Speaker 4 And they were like, yeah, like we obviously have known that. And I was like, okay.
And it's just like been this weird thing because I don't know.

Speaker 4 Like him and his girlfriend have been long distance their whole relationship. They were friends when they were in high school.

Speaker 4 And I mean, I used to like talk to him about his girlfriend and like give him advice and like always very genuine because I, again, like I didn't see him that way.

Speaker 4 So it was easy to like be that friend. But now it's getting to the point where I'm like, okay, like I can't be like disingenuous and like talk to him about this.

Speaker 4 And like he really doesn't bring her up to me anymore. And it's really awkward.
But I know that they're talking about having her move here.

Speaker 4 And it's been kind of a long time where like she's supposed to move here, but hasn't.

Speaker 4 And he kind of told me he was giving her an ultimatum like if she doesn't move here they're gonna break up and i don't know if him telling me that is what made me kind of acknowledge that i've had feelings for him because i was like oh this could end and like it could actually be a thing but yeah now he's going to go home and like see her for like the holidays like with his family and everything and i kind of think that's where they're either gonna like break up or make the plan for her to move so my friend was like oh are you go like like plant the seed yeah she was like you should tell him like because what if he moves here and she was like what like how will you feel if she moves here basically?

Speaker 4 And I literally started crying. And I was like, oh my God, like I'm down bad.

Speaker 4 So yeah, it just made me realize like, I think I need to do something, but I'm also like one of those people, like when I feel the urgency to do something, I usually take that as a red flag.

Speaker 4 Like I usually think things should happen naturally and like whatever, but I also don't want like her to move here. And then I don't know, like I'll always kind of wonder, I guess.

Speaker 4 And I know like, from I've listened to the show for so long, like, I know you always say this, but like the friendship is really ruined already. And I'm aware of that.

Speaker 4 So I'm not like scared of ruining the friendship. I guess I'm just like, I know it's a complicated situation from his side.
And like, I don't know, like, I don't know if it's the right thing to do.

Speaker 4 I'm not someone who like wants to hit on someone that has a girlfriend. So the other thing, too, is just like, I'm in a phase right now where I'm really not dating.
So that's the other part of it.

Speaker 4 It's it's like, not like I'm looking for a boyfriend necessarily. So it's like, I wouldn't go on this timeline if there wasn't the like impending, is your girlfriend going to move here?

Speaker 4 Cause I'm really trying to like, like, I'm rejecting dates.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm not, I'm i'm not dating right now so but this feels different and like this isn't dating this is you feeling yeah feelings for someone that you have some kind of relationship with and dating is more like the willingness to meet strangers in the hopes that maybe something will develop so to me this is a very nuanced decision right because i'm not for home wrecking so to speak yeah um

Speaker 1 i'm for respecting other people's relationships right But I don't think telling him how you feel is a violation of either of those two things. I think

Speaker 1 your actions, you know, so I guess my question to you is your interactions with this guy, forgetting about how you feel, right?

Speaker 1 Let's assume, you know, but do you think, I mean, obviously if his girlfriend knew you had feelings, she would be uncomfortable with you two hanging out. But

Speaker 1 from his point of view, without reading into how you think he could be feeling feeling about you not we just don't know how he feels about you so not knowing how he feels about you from your point of view about his actions and your two's interactions would his girlfriend have any reason to be upset with him does that make sense yeah so we don't like flirt like it's not flirty but i don't think if i was her i would like it like we hang out alone a lot like i think you hang out alone a lot we'll go get like brunch together on the weekend or like we'll smoke weed together and like just go for a walk or something.

Speaker 4 And like we have like really good conversations. So it's always the dynamic of like talking and like doing something.

Speaker 1 But what are you talking about?

Speaker 4 Just like life, like I think we view the world in a really similar way. Like we both kind of had a hard upbringing in some ways, just like been through a lot.

Speaker 4 And like, I think we see the world in really similar ways and like are both really trying to like.

Speaker 4 make our lives happy and like figure out who we want to be and like whatever in our 20s and like i just we align on a lot of things things and are very compatible as like humans but we don't like flirt like i'm not like hitting on him like and that's one thing like my will be like

Speaker 4 maybe you should be like and see if he reacts to it but i'm like i'm not gonna do that well that's good but do

Speaker 4 he has he flirted with you at all well like so one thing that's really weird that happened is we went on a trip together with like friends but it ended up being like a couple and me and him where was the girlfriend like i don't know and like he just doesn't really talk about her that much anymore so like it used to be when we were friends, like, it was a conversation.

Speaker 4 Like, I'd be like, yeah, like, you should do this, like trying to make the relationship better. And now, like, they don't talk.
So, I have no idea.

Speaker 4 But, like, if everyone I told that to was like, why are you going on this trip? And I was like, well, he invited me. And at first, I didn't know it was going to be like those people.
And then.

Speaker 4 that was what it was. And it was just like weird.
And like nothing happened. It wasn't like that.
But like, as a girl, like, I would never want my boyfriend, like, going on a trip like that, you know?

Speaker 1 And did you ever bring it up to him? Did you ever ask?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 4 And I thought about saying like, does she know about like, is this weird for you? But I mean, I didn't. Maybe it would have been a good opportunity to do it.

Speaker 4 But I honestly didn't even know at that point that I really had the feeling. So I was kind of like, okay, this is fine.
It's whatever.

Speaker 4 But then once I realized, I was like, yeah, retrospectively, that was really weird.

Speaker 1 I'm for telling him.

Speaker 4 Okay. And if I do, like, I guess my other thing, because like everyone's been telling me I just should just say it, but like, I don't know how.
And that's like kind of what I also want your advice on.

Speaker 4 It's like, if I'm going to say it, like, I'm not going to do anything.

Speaker 4 Like, I want him to just like have the information and do what he wants with it I guess like and I kind of thought you would say that because like I watched the show enough but I'm really nervous about how to do it like when to even say it before we get into that I do want to make one thing clear are you very are you 100 prepared to say to to end this relationship I don't know that's the hardest thing about it like I've been saying like yeah like the friendship's over like if his girlfriend moves here like our dynamic won't be the same at all anyways so it's kind of like it's just a matter of time but then like one of my friends said to me too she's like what if this is like more of a fleeting thing than you realize and then you like mess up the friendship when you could have just like let it rot like see what happens kind of yeah it's possible but let's just you know you're i'm assuming a straight heterosexual woman and he is a straight heterosexual man this friendship has an end date regardless you know what i'm saying yeah exactly that's what i is a hundred percent and that's like your question is is are you willing to end this friendship as soon as today let's say you were let's say you get off the phone with me today you shoot your shot and you don't get the answer you want.

Speaker 1 You know, and there's an argument to be made being like, I don't know, I enjoy the guy's company.

Speaker 1 I know it has an expiration date, but I'm just going to enjoy it while it's around because I like smoking week with the guy. I enjoy our conversations.

Speaker 1 But also the question is, is how are you going to feel about that? The alternative is, is not telling him, right?

Speaker 1 Has your ability to enjoy his company diminished since realizing you have feelings? Yeah. It has.

Speaker 4 There you go. Because I don't want to like do do this.
Like, I feel weird. I feel like I can't be myself in the same way because I'm like holding part of it back.

Speaker 1 And like, that's not how I am. So, to answer your friend's question, is it possible your feelings are fleeting and this is a temporary thing that you're feeling about him for who knows what reasons?

Speaker 1 And that you will come to find out that really you do more respect him as a friend and you don't know why you had romantic feelings for him at the time, but you don't anymore? Is that possible? Sure.

Speaker 1 But I don't know. You already aren't enjoying his company as much as you used to because you do have feelings now.

Speaker 1 You don't know how long those feelings are going to last if they are in fact fleeting. And my guess is it's probably never going to be what it was.

Speaker 4 Yeah, 100%. That's kind of what I'm starting to realize is it's not that friendship anyways.
So like I kind of have nothing to lose.

Speaker 4 I guess the other thing is like, if she doesn't move here, like, I mean, if they break up, then like, I don't know, like then I guess.

Speaker 1 How long have you been together?

Speaker 4 Like, two years, fully long distance. Okay.
Also, for context, like, it's a different country that she lives in. So, like, they see each other like three, four times a year.

Speaker 4 It's not like long distance, like a couple hour drive. Like, they really don't see each other a lot.
And, like, there's been points where, like, I think it was going to end.

Speaker 4 He like moved to the States, like from the country he lives in and like went to college here and like, just kind of like made his way.

Speaker 4 So, that's like something I really like about him, too, is we're just kind of similar in that way of just like grinding and like making our lives

Speaker 1 He's fully committed to the American life so to speak.

Speaker 4 I don't know like that's another thing but also like I don't know if I am like there's been talk of moving to like Europe which is something I've always wanted to do and like sure we really do align in like what our lives look like and I don't know I don't want to like do it based on that because I'm only 25 I think like so many things can change but I have thought about that that part of it like it's a there is a cultural thing there.

Speaker 1 Well, okay.

Speaker 1 So anyways, I'm I'm still in favor of telling him to be clear, you know, for all the people who are listening, who are losing their mind and be like, how could you tell her to like shoot your shot with a guy in a relationship?

Speaker 1 It is not your job to protect his relationship. It is your job to respect his relationship.
You communicating your feelings isn't being disrespectful to that relationship.

Speaker 1 That is just being honest with him about how you feel and giving him the opportunity to explore his feelings because, you know, his behavior in your friendship doesn't, I agree, doesn't align with how I would conduct myself in a committed relationship.

Speaker 1 But, you know, so it is important for you, if you want to maintain your integrity in this situation is to, let's say you shoot your shot, you don't get the answer you want.

Speaker 1 There's a good chance he's going to want to keep hanging out with you.

Speaker 1 And at that point, would you still be willing to be like, I just don't think that's appropriate anymore, given like, you know, what I just admitted to you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I do think I'm like, yeah, I think I can, if I tell him I'm going to be kind of like, I need distance, if he's like, no, sorry, like, I love my girlfriend.

Speaker 4 Like, I would definitely be like, okay, i need like some space from the friendship and like maybe i get over my feelings and we can have like the friend group friendship that i have but like i wouldn't i think if i say it i know it's kind of like we don't have the dynamic we used to have anymore do you think you've made it completely unobvious to him that you have feelings i mean it's obvious to your friends like i think so because like i didn't even like realize it really till so recently and i feel like since i've realized it i've only seen him like twice in group settings so it's been easier to like conceal but But I also don't know.

Speaker 4 And like the one time, like when I realized it, like in that instance, we were literally like on the street, like in the city we live in, like smoking a joint, like laughing and like bantering.

Speaker 4 And I was like, and when it hit me, like looking back, I'm like, I don't know how he could have like not felt what I was feeling because it felt so strong to me.

Speaker 4 And like, I've had so many relationships and like. I have guy friends.
Like, I don't have that connection with my guy friends. It's not like, it's like I have my girls.
Like, that's what I care about.

Speaker 4 So it was like, I don't know, I just am like, I don't get how he could not know this. But also we've been friends for however many years of me being like very platonic.

Speaker 4 So I could see how maybe he's like, oh, she just doesn't think of me like that. And so maybe he's not thinking of it like that.
Like he's like, oh, she's like a bro, like whatever.

Speaker 1 But I imagined you've stalked his girlfriend on social media. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
How do you compare? Do you look like her? Do you not look like her?

Speaker 4 I mean, we're similar vibes, like hair and stuff. Like, I don't want to say I'm like prettier because like, I think everyone's beautiful in their own ways.

Speaker 4 But I think maybe in like a classical sense, I'm prettier. I don't know.
Okay. All right.

Speaker 4 It's hard to say. I don't know.

Speaker 4 My friends are like, yeah, but I don't know.

Speaker 1 Well, sure. I mean, of course.
But I mean, I just, I'm curious if, like, if you were

Speaker 1 a slim,

Speaker 1 petite blonde, so to speak, and his girlfriend is a curvy.

Speaker 1 brunette no we're similar vibes like we have same hair color like similar sizes that kind of thing yeah for sure yeah if I were to told you you have a 20% chance of him of getting the answer you want, would you still shoot your shot?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 4 I kind of wanted you to just tell me, like, do it or don't do it.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, I think you should do it. I don't think the odds really matter.
I'm just trying to prepare you for the, I mean, I think you have better odds not getting the answer that you want.

Speaker 1 I think guys

Speaker 1 aren't as

Speaker 1 clever or as smart or in tune with their emotions

Speaker 1 to not demonstrate how they feel often. I do think it's weird He's talking about her less and less.
I do think the trip you guys went on together, I would never have done that.

Speaker 4 You know, I also will say though, like, I know I'm saying it's like, like, this is from my perspective. Like, my friends will be like, he's in love with you.
Like, we see it.

Speaker 4 Like, they're friends with him too.

Speaker 5 They're like, he's obsessed with you.

Speaker 4 Like, and he'll like grab me and like hug me and like do things. But like, I guess it's flirty and that, like, maybe he does that, but I don't initiate it back because I'm like, not like that.

Speaker 4 But I'm not going to say it's like, he's not showing anything. Like, that's probably not true.
Like, my friends would be like, like, that's a lie.

Speaker 4 Like, if they heard me saying that, because I do think he shows some signs.

Speaker 1 Do you think your friends are fairly objective? I feel like. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. They are.
They're like not girls that are going to like, they tell, we're very close. They tell it to me straight.
Like, if they're like, he's not into it, you're crazy.

Speaker 4 Like, they'll say that to me.

Speaker 1 Well, shoot your shot. I mean, I, you know, there's no, listen, we can spitball here and workshop what you should say, but.
It's not going to be how you say it. That's going to make the difference.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Do you think it's weird to be be like can we like talk like like because i don't know if i'm going to see him before he leaves if i don't like initiate that because i have plans the next like two weekends yeah ask him to get together like i don't i don't know how serious to make or if i should try to make it like we're already hanging out and i just bring it up i'm thinking about the time when i've had girlfriends confess to me that they were in love with me or liked me or had feelings for me one in particular i was yeah i mean that was a long long time ago And I did have a crush on this girl.

Speaker 1 And I thought, and she was beautiful. But at the time in which she admitted feelings to me, I just, I wasn't receiving it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I remember her crying in the car.

Speaker 1 We were sitting in her car. I was in the driver's seat and she just started crying.

Speaker 1 It was so awkward.

Speaker 4 Oh my God. That is not helping.

Speaker 1 Anyways,

Speaker 1 yeah, I don't know. Listen, that's a matter of like,

Speaker 1 what are you most comfortable with? Because again, whether you write him a letter or send him a text or FaceTime him or do it in person, I really ultimately don't think it matters.

Speaker 1 I think it's just this is about letting him know. This is about right like you two clearly have had a relationship.
You guys are clearly spending quality time together.

Speaker 1 And despite like not flirting and granted, again, it's it's his job to protect the relationship. Like, you know, like you said, you went on a, you went on a double date trip.

Speaker 1 It's a couple's trip, it felt like, but, you know, no lines were crossed or whatever. He invited you.
You didn't even understand.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, it's like, okay, that was, that's on him you didn't you know what are you supposed to do in that situation right and and I even said like is it weird if I go and he was like no please come like it'll be so fun yeah so I you know I don't know it's just kind of your comfort level this is about planting the seed so that just in case you know the hope here is that you know he's having the same conversation we're having with a buddy or a friend or whatever being like I think I kind of like her but I have this girlfriend I don't know and I don't want to ruin my friendship or make her

Speaker 4 you know and the hope is is that you're gonna say something and he might i i i doubt very much it's gonna be like yeah me too uh immediately yeah i don't think that either i think it's more about planting the seed like he's really in the mindset of like figuring out like if she's gonna move here and stuff so like i know like it's probably gonna be like a shock first of all and i think it's also gonna be like him thinking about it but like I kind of want to plant the seed before he leaves.

Speaker 4 So if he leaves and he like misses me, then it's like a good sign. And maybe that helps me.

Speaker 1 Why don't you just get super fucking stoned together and tell him?

Speaker 4 I know. That's what I was thinking.
I just like, unfortunately, I have friggin plans, of course, like the next two weekends.

Speaker 4 So I can't, like, because usually like on Sundays, we'll like hang out and just like smoke weed, go for a walk, get food, whatever.

Speaker 1 You can't hang out on a weeknight.

Speaker 1 You can't hang out on a school night.

Speaker 4 No, we can. I literally, I'm not lying.
I actually have plans every night next week.

Speaker 4 I, just because I'm fitting stuff in before I go home, but maybe I'll try to be like, like, cancel something and be like, let's hang out one night.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but listen, like, hip this.

Speaker 4 I know. I know this sounds like ridiculous.

Speaker 1 Well, no, I mean, listen, I understand it because, you know, um, part of your brain's thinking, well, do I really want to cancel for something that probably isn't going to go my way anyways?

Speaker 1 You know, that's that's the fear in you talking. If you're going to do this, you need to own this decision.

Speaker 1 And if you're going to do this, then you need to realize that this is a potentially a life-changing decision that you're making. You know, you're not, I'm assuming, right?

Speaker 1 Like, you're not doing like, who knows? Like, you could definitely tell him how you feel, and you could get the answer that you want, and you could date.

Speaker 1 And that just because you get the answer you want doesn't mean he's your forever person, but he might be.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, who knows? And so, the point is, is you're shooting your shot about a feeling you have about someone, and this is a potentially big decision.

Speaker 1 And if you're going to make a big decision, you got to treat it like a big decision. And so, yeah, you should carve out the time.

Speaker 4 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 4 All right. That's a good point.
Yeah. Maybe I'll just be like, do you want to like smoke and like get food or something before we leave and see?

Speaker 4 And also, if like he doesn't make the time, if I say that, then like maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

Speaker 1 Oh, it depends on why he's not making the time.

Speaker 4 No, I should do this. I know.
That's just like my,

Speaker 4 ego and like being nervous.

Speaker 1 How you say it, it's something like, listen, I don't think of you as just a friend anymore. And maybe I'm catching you a little off guard.

Speaker 1 I know you have a girlfriend and I'm not like saying I'm in love with you, but like I enjoy time with you different than I do Megan, you know,

Speaker 1 or Chad. And I don't know how you feel about me.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you've ever thought of me in any other way, but like, I know you have your girl and I know you're going with, you know, you, you have all these big decisions to make, but I have feelings for you.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I'm, you know, I know, I don't know if that feels like a lot of pressure, but like, I need you to figure out what you want to do with your girlfriend because I don't want to be necessarily a homewrecker.

Speaker 1 But if there's any part of you that understands how I feel, I wanted to tell you because I know that you're kind of going through a lot when it comes to your girlfriend.

Speaker 1 And I wouldn't hate being the reason she doesn't move. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's good. Okay.
Yeah. No, that actually is really helpful because I've just been really having a hard time thinking of how I'm even going to start it.

Speaker 1 Like you try to, yeah, you try to keep it somewhat, you know, it's like

Speaker 1 yeah, it's not like I'm in love with you, you know? Oh, Jesus. Yeah, no, I'm not into that.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 and I'm not. Not to that level.
But yeah, it's like, listen, I, you're not my pal.

Speaker 1 I don't, you know, like, you're not.

Speaker 1 So I want to take more trips with you and I don't want to wonder if it's weird you have a girlfriend.

Speaker 1 You know, it's saying like that right yeah yeah for sure i want to talk about going to europe with you i love spending time with you and i want to do it without worrying if i'm being inappropriate with you having a girlfriend because that's kind of how i feel now and i think that's kind of important to say because you're kind of also planting the seed that like regardless of his answer You don't want to keep doing this.

Speaker 4 I'm not doing this. Yeah.
A hundred percent. And also, like, I don't have guy friends like this.
Like,

Speaker 4 yeah, like, I don't. And, like, to your point, like platonic friends like that, like, when you're straight, it's not realistic or sustainable.

Speaker 4 And it, yeah, I feel like what I'm saying is just like the obvious.

Speaker 4 And I even said that to like my roommates when I was, I was thinking about telling him a different time where I was going to be like, do you realize we're like on a date right now?

Speaker 4 Like, cause we're like. do these things and it's like weird.

Speaker 1 The only thing you have going against you and it's a big thing you have going against you is, you know, the fact that he has a girlfriend and he only sees her a few times a week is that like the why he's able to do what he's doing with you and it feels the way it does is because you're playing his,

Speaker 1 you are very much playing the role of a girlfriend. And he's telling himself it's okay.
I hate that. You know, because you're not, because you're not being physical and because you're not flirting.

Speaker 1 He has deemed it is okay

Speaker 1 to him.

Speaker 1 But like, it's just the quality time, you know, it's just the, the, the person to talk to, the person to go out to dinner with, to smoke weed with, to take a trip with.

Speaker 1 Like all the non-sexual aspects of of of having a boyfriend or a girlfriend you know like there's a lot more to relationships than just right like you're having sex and that's a big part of it you know sex is a big part of relationships especially in your 20s when you're young and horny and just want to have sex but like you are filling that role and that's maybe another thing to kind of point out to him that this will be a thing to point out to him if you don't get the answer you want and when he and you're like i can't keep doing this and he's like well why not it's just because i'm playing the role of your girlfriend without all the benefits yeah 100 And also like talked about sex and stuff before, which I also feel weird about.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, you have, you've talked about what you guys like in bed.

Speaker 4 Like, not specifics, but like we talk about sex. And like, he'll talk about the fact that like he hates that he can never have sex, basically.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 like, I don't want to say this because I don't want people like listening to this to freak out. But like, he's like said to me basically that like sex with his girlfriend is like not that good.

Speaker 4 And like that to me is like crossing a line.

Speaker 1 But like,

Speaker 4 obviously, but like when he said that to me, I wasn't feeling like this yet. It was still very platonic.
So when I, when he said that, I was like, oh, like.

Speaker 1 He's saying it as a friend. So then maybe it's less of a crossing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't know. I just, again, like, I wasn't in this mindset.
So I was kind of just like, okay, like, guys are shitty sometimes and like say dumb shit.

Speaker 4 But like, yeah, like that is like a weird thing about it. It's like there is this weird tension around.

Speaker 1 Girls have, to your point, women have told their women friends about their sex life. Exactly.
And that happens all the time. It's just like, you know.

Speaker 4 But now I'm like attracted to him and I'm like, okay, like you're not even having sex. Like, it's like, why are we even, why aren't we having sex? Oh, because you have a girlfriend.

Speaker 1 Like it's weird. The big question is, is has he come to appreciate the same way you have come to appreciate all the quality time that you guys have shared?

Speaker 1 And you have that quality time, is quality of time your love language? I'd be willing to bet it is. It is.

Speaker 1 It might not be his, right? So there is that, you know, and so this quality time that you're getting with him is helping you, is driving these feelings. Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 1 And so the question is, is that like, when he doesn't get the quality time from you that he's used to, how will he feel about that?

Speaker 1 Because a big part of him, of him realizing how he feels about you, most likely will be you saying, I can't do that.

Speaker 1 You're going to have to leave his life and he's going to have to then evaluate how his life is without you in it. Right.
And while still having his girlfriend in it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a good point. And like, that's kind of why, too, I think it's like a good time that we're both about to like be out of our city for a while.
Because

Speaker 4 like if I say it now and then he goes there and he's thinking about it.

Speaker 1 You want him, yeah, you want him, you want him, I want him to be like thinking about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, yeah, especially, you know, definitely tell him before he goes so that way it'll help him get clarity if he needs to get clarity.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, and I mean, if it doesn't go my way, like, I'll be fine. I'm not like, I can handle it.

Speaker 1 You definitely, you definitely have to make it very clear that like, this is the end

Speaker 1 of whatever you guys had.

Speaker 4 Yeah, of this.

Speaker 1 It either is some sort of new beginning if he decides to leave that relationship. And if he's like, well, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 You'll be like, I don't know, but I do know that like, I want to keep doing this without you having a girlfriend. And I don't want to break up a relationship that is important.

Speaker 1 You know, if you love her, then you should be with her. But given how I feel about you, I just, I don't, I'm not going to be.

Speaker 1 your local girlfriend who plays the role of your girlfriend without the you know the stuff that we're not i just i don't don't want to and I can't do that anymore.

Speaker 1 And out of respect for you and her, you know, I'm just not going to keep doing this.

Speaker 1 But if you're open to exploring us, you know, if you've, if any part of you feels what I'm feeling and you've decided to leave that relationship, I want to take a trip with you.

Speaker 1 I want to hang out with you. I want to spend more time with you.
You know, I want to. Yeah.
That's all I know.

Speaker 1 That's as far as I've gotten. Right.

Speaker 4 Okay. Yeah.
That's really helpful. I think I have a better idea of like what I should say and everything.
But I think I'll just this week be like, do you want to go for a walk?

Speaker 4 Cause we live right by each other. And so it doesn't have to be like carving out a night.
It can just be like, let's just like go talk. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, please keep us posted.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'll keep you updated.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 1 Good luck.

Speaker 1 You really?

Speaker 1 I mean, you may get the answer you want right away, but this could be a bit of a process, right? But

Speaker 1 you have to enforce that boundary.

Speaker 1 I can't emphasize that enough, that if you don't get the initial answer that you want, you have to make it very clear that you are not willing to hang out with him and give in and like miss him and like go on that walk, you know, and talk

Speaker 1 and or you know, grab that coffee.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you really, you have to do that. I like, well, I'm really good.

Speaker 4 I dated my ex for two years. Like we broke up.
I went no contact. Like he would text me, text me.
I would be like, no. And he broke up with me.
So I was like losing it, but I was like, absolutely not.

Speaker 4 I've been listening to your show for like three years at least. So I knew I was like, not, we are not doing this.

Speaker 1 All right. Cause that's the, that's the key.
That will make, that will force him to make a decision. And it will force him to explore his feelings.

Speaker 1 Cause a lot of times if people don't make us decide, we're not going to decide. If people don't make us choose, we won't.
If they, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 If people don't make us really explore our feelings, we won't, you know? And so you got to make. Why would you? Yeah.
You got to make him do it.

Speaker 4 So yeah. Okay.
I will. Thank you.
This is very helpful. I love your show.
And I've probably referred 50 of my friends and like, they're definitely tired of me saying, like, well, Nick would say this.

Speaker 4 So thank you for all the advice over the years.

Speaker 1 Well, I sincerely appreciate it. And thank you for telling people to listen.
And hopefully this was helpful.

Speaker 4 It definitely was. Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Take care.
Have a good one.

Speaker 4 All right. Bye-bye.
All right. You too.
Bye.

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 5 Hi, my name is Lola. I'm 24.

Speaker 1 How can I help?

Speaker 5 So we've dated for five months. I've met his family.
He told me he loves me. When do I become his girlfriend?

Speaker 1 Okay. The meeting is family, irrelevant, means nothing.
The I love you, something. And when he says, I love you, like, it's not, is it more like I would tell my brother I love you?

Speaker 1 Or is like, I'm in love with you?

Speaker 5 It's more of a, I'm in love with you. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, that's something then.
When does he become your boyfriend? Whenever you're willing to hold him accountable. Or.

Speaker 1 Actually, more accurately, whenever you're willing to hold yourself accountable, I'm guessing. I'm assuming you've had conversations about the label, yeah.

Speaker 5 Yes. So he started as my gym crush.
It was somebody that I kind of was eyeing out at the gym for a minute earlier this year.

Speaker 5 And I had a conversation with my friend, and she was like, Sometimes you just have to go get it and like take a chance. So I actually went up to him and asked him for his name.

Speaker 5 He got my number, and we've been talking since like early June. Now we've gone on a couple dates.
By the third date, we kind of solidified that we were exclusive.

Speaker 5 By the fourth date, it was kind of like he was more affectionate. And

Speaker 5 like I said, he dropped the L-bomb in like August.

Speaker 5 And honestly, I really like him too. I feel like.

Speaker 1 So he said it to you without you just out of nowhere.

Speaker 5 Yeah. We were watching a movie and

Speaker 5 He said he dropped the L-word. And I was kind of shocked because normally I like to take my time with people.
I've never dated somebody like at this pace before.

Speaker 5 I'm the believer of like you have to get to know somebody for at least six months before even seeing if it could go anywhere.

Speaker 5 But I also now believe because I'm going through it now that you can feel some type of way or feel stronger about somebody and just getting to know them for a couple months.

Speaker 5 And I knew that, like, by the second month, if he had asked me to be his girlfriend, I would have said yes, which typically I wouldn't have done.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Uh, how old are you again?

Speaker 5 I'm 24. How old is he? He's 23.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 5 Fairly young.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, whatever.

Speaker 5 You know, that's only a year younger. Oh, and I want to say, too, I think it was on our third date, we kind of talked about what kind of daters we were and kind of our history.

Speaker 5 He's only had one girlfriend. And I could tell he barely counts that as a girlfriend because in, it was in high school.
So it wasn't easy to talk about it as if it was like a huge.

Speaker 1 It probably wasn't. Yeah.
I mean, I definitely don't count girlfriends in high schools.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, and I've had, I've been in three relationships and in each one, I've taken my time. They've been long distance relationships as well.
They've been two-year relationships.

Speaker 5 So I feel like I kind of have a better feel of what I like and what I don't like. And with this person, it's just gotten at a way like faster pace.

Speaker 1 So what conversations about labels have you guys had?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So the first conversation we had was in August and it was because I went to a friend's gathering and we were talking about how long is too long before you can get to know somebody to, you know, ask them to be your girlfriend and people were throwing out like four months five months six months and then I was just like thinking about that and I saw him afterwards and we were talking and because he had told me you know if somebody comes up to me and asks me like for my number like you know ask me for a date or something like I I already say I have a girlfriend and I was like oh you you do

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 1 you guys are exclusive.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 1 But I, and I said that as like, well, you've never really asked me out i was like so do you assume we're just dating sorry for interrupting but like when you guys had the exclusive conversation what was that conversation like and what expectations and boundaries did you guys set if any when you guys established that you guys were exclusive well yeah so we said we were we agreed that we weren't talking to anybody else okay that we weren't entertaining anything else that we were going to take the time to get to know each other but did that mean that the door was open if you wanted to entertain people?

Speaker 1 You know, I guess I'll be honest, like this whole like, we're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend and girlfriend, it is a modern dating thing. I don't think only Gen Z-ers are doing it.

Speaker 1 I think the millennials have adapted it probably as well. But it is new.
It is confusing to me

Speaker 1 and stupid,

Speaker 1 I think.

Speaker 1 My understanding is it's like...

Speaker 1 the way you're describing it's like yeah we decided we weren't seeing other people but it almost seems like you know people don't do things for no reason so there is a reason why both of you or one of you that aren't calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 1 I don't know what that reason is.

Speaker 1 A lot of times, if there's one person really saying, I want to be boyfriend and girlfriend and the other person is saying, not yet, well, there is a reason they're saying not yet.

Speaker 1 Might be like the loophole of, well, what if I do meet someone I want to entertain? And their only reason you are exclusive right now is because there's no one they would rather fuck.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So when we had that first conversation, I said, so you just assume I'm your girlfriend.
And we talked about that. I said, I'm a girl.
I like those type of things.

Speaker 5 Like I would like to formally be asked. And he's like, you think I don't think about that? I want it to be special.

Speaker 5 So in August, when he said that, I was like, oh, that gave me hope of like, oh, maybe he's planning it.

Speaker 4 Maybe he's going to come through with it.

Speaker 5 And now it's December and nothing's happened. And at this point, I feel like it's almost like a joke.
We talk about it and kind of laugh about it.

Speaker 5 One time my sister called me out and said, you're in the gray area. Like you don't usually do this.
Like it's either black and white for you.

Speaker 5 Why are you letting this guy like keep you in this gray area?

Speaker 5 And I was like, oh my gosh, she's right. Like,

Speaker 5 and so I brought it up again. I told him, I brought up the whole term of the gray area.
He was like, what is that?

Speaker 5 And funny enough, in one of your Ask Nick episodes, you talked about the reason why a guy is willing to be exclusive with you, but not actually make you his girlfriend.

Speaker 5 So I played that clip and he was like, he laughed and he was like, he's totally right.

Speaker 1 What did I say?

Speaker 5 That he's willing to like hook up with you, treat you like his girlfriend, but just in case, you know, if somebody, if another option comes up that's better, like it's kind of leaves that door open to take that step with somebody else if they wanted to.

Speaker 1 And he agreed with me.

Speaker 5 He agreed with you. He's like, oh my gosh, I hate that he's right.
He's like, but quickly he was said, I don't think that's the situation we're in.

Speaker 5 So then that kind of left me confused.

Speaker 5 Because if you ask me, and I don't know if I have rose-colored glasses on, but if you ask me, I don't think if somebody else were to come in the picture, like he would take it.

Speaker 5 I really think that it's just, you know, him and I. I don't think that he's interested or looking for other people to date.

Speaker 1 He's probably not.

Speaker 1 And the truth is, had you guys decided to be boyfriend and girlfriend two months ago, that wouldn't necessarily protect or stop him from meeting someone, being attracted to them, and then breaking up with you to date them.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? And I think it's kind of my point is that I wanted to get to is that this is an unnecessary

Speaker 1 thing that you guys have created. What I, to be honest, what I want you to do is I want you to just be like, hey, by the way, we're boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 1 And part of your problem is like, and I get where you're coming from. You want special moments.
I understand that. But like, this is an unnecessary step and an unnecessary special moment.

Speaker 1 And you are sacrificing clarity for yourself in this relationship in the hopes of

Speaker 1 some special moment. You know what I'm saying? Like the way you guys are talking, you're talking about like an engagement.
You're not getting engaged. I don't know, maybe not anytime soon.

Speaker 1 You're just trying to get some clarity so that you guys can move forward with this relationship and, you know, see if it's, it could go anywhere.

Speaker 1 He doesn't need to propose to you to be your boyfriend. You know what I'm saying? He doesn't need to light candles and have a playlist and have the family waiting to surprise you guys after.

Speaker 1 You don't need that, you know?

Speaker 5 So that's what I was thinking in my head. I was like, am I too shallow for wanting that? But as the same time, I'm also a girl and I like those kinds of things.
I've, I'm, I'm used to that.

Speaker 1 But at what cost?

Speaker 1 What's it costing you, right? Like, and you also have to recognize that, well, you know, this is a man as you've, you know, he's younger than you.

Speaker 1 So, you know, there's exceptions to every rule, but he's probably slightly less mature than you.

Speaker 1 Probably also, especially when it comes to dating, because I think typically women have more options to date older men early in their adult life. And with that, sometimes comes experience.

Speaker 1 It comes access to more adult people. And that's part of the reason why you might mature faster than him.
You know, you've had more experience. And so part of it is it's like

Speaker 1 you do have more dating experience than him. You are a little older than him.

Speaker 1 You being a woman, him being a man, and being older, you can safely assume that you're probably a little bit more emotionally experienced and mature than him.

Speaker 1 Not that you're so more mature that you can't date him or anything like that. I'm just saying, it's just like, here you are wanting this special moment.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 And then here's this guy who's never really had a real girlfriend, and you're telling him it needs to be special. And he's like, all right, well, I guess it needs to be special.

Speaker 5 And like, you know, and then you're, you're almost building up something, you know, that he needs to like really make sure he's ready for or something and it's just like you're adding to the stakes of something that like and all and the truth is what do you really want here right clarity right yeah and something that it his mom i think asked him and this is where i kind of feel embarrassed um his mom had a conversation with him and said oh when did you make it official and he's like well i haven't and she's like what like you guys aren't official you never asked her out and then he's like no no, mom, like I, I know this is something that she's also brought up.

Speaker 5 Like, I know I have to do it. So now I, I, I've gone over to his house multiple times.
And like now seeing them, I feel like, am I settling? Or like, do they look at me differently?

Speaker 5 You know, I don't know. It's like, I'm constantly in my head thinking about, yeah, because we're not official, even though we're acting like we are.

Speaker 5 I also think, well, had I not allowed certain things, maybe he would have asked me or.

Speaker 4 Maybe, I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's possible. because the what you're describing, you're not, you're not describing a guy giving you the energy to someone who really wants to explore other options.

Speaker 1 To me, I think you guys are just kind of falling for

Speaker 1 society's trap of this whole like label. I don't know, like you can, you guys can break up, you know, like defining a relationship is not a special moment in a relationship.

Speaker 1 It's it's all it is is clarity. It is a step in a a relationship to make both parties early in a relationship feel more secure.

Speaker 1 And it gives both people permission to continue to explore this relationship and have more trust and to be more vulnerable and open up more so that you can build a stronger connection.

Speaker 1 That's all it is. It's permission to go deeper, you know, and things like that.
It's not a big commitment.

Speaker 1 You can break up the next day, you know, and that's kind of the problem that we've created with this whole like boyfriend and girlfriend label. Versus, we've added an unnecessary extra step.

Speaker 1 That unnecessary extra step is like we're exclusive, but not boyfriend and girlfriend. Like, I don't, I still, for the life of me, don't know what the fuck that is for people who do that.

Speaker 1 You know, your boyfriend and girlfriend, whether you want to call yourself boyfriend and girlfriend or not, like, breaking up wouldn't be any, like, if you guys ended, if he, if you met someone else today, or if he met someone else today and you had to end the relationship, it wouldn't be any less difficult for either of you just because you don't have the label.

Speaker 1 If he fucked another girl tomorrow and you found out about it, it wouldn't feel any less of a violation of trust than it would if he was your boyfriend. It just wouldn't.

Speaker 1 He might be able to argue semantics with you, be like, well, I didn't cheat on you because you weren't my girlfriend, but it would feel the same to you. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 And that's what matters. And so this is all just kind of unnecessary at the cost of clarity.

Speaker 1 And listen, I'm not saying that that you shouldn't expect to have a boyfriend that from time to time makes you feel special, you know, and meets your love languages, whatever your love languages are.

Speaker 1 And if your love languages are quality time or gifts or words of affirmation and the combination of all those equals him like, I don't know, planning a romantic weekend, a staycation, a trip, or a flower.

Speaker 1 He brings over flowers one day and says, hey, I just did it because I love you. That's what you're describing.
And that's what you needed. And you should want those things.

Speaker 1 But you're like narrowing it down so specific that, like, you know, I promise you, like, if you end up marrying this guy, you're not going to be like, remember, you know, boy, are the day you asked me to be your boyfriend was a real magical day.

Speaker 1 Like, you're not going to, no, it's, it's, yeah.

Speaker 5 It's so, so do you think I'm more than falling into, because what you're saying is I'm falling into this,

Speaker 5 I guess, now society's like the steps that need to be taken to be quote unquote boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, I don't know, how it sounds to me. I honestly think you should next time you get together and be like, hey, by the way, I decided we're boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 1 And you should say it kind of as a joke. And you should be like, but in all seriousness, like we are.
I do want you to treat me special. I do want you to.

Speaker 1 like from time to time to go out of your way and make me feel like you really like love me and do romantic things but like you're my boyfriend we act like boyfriend and girlfriend we're intimate we i don't you know whatever.

Speaker 1 You say you love me. You're in love with me.
You're, you're my boyfriend. I'm your girlfriend.

Speaker 1 If you were to leave, if you were to develop feelings for someone else, I would expect you to let me know and give me the consideration I deserve. And that's a boyfriend.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 So like we were being silly about labels. I kind of think you should bring that kind of energy.

Speaker 1 I mean, and then if he is like, well, I don't know if I'm ready to be your boyfriend, well, then you should address that. But that will be like, well, why not? Like, what's different?

Speaker 5 That will be, you know but he should be like you're probably right let boyfriend and girlfriend yeah and i guess too it's like i come from a traditional like family who and in my close circle like that those things are important and i know that because this person has not met my family yet because this is another little predicament um because i've moved so fast with this person my mom does not agree she thinks that i also need to take my time into getting to know somebody before i actually date them So that's another pickle I'm dealing with.

Speaker 5 But, and I've also kind of used that as an excuse to be like, well, at least he hasn't asked me to be his girlfriend. So I don't have to tell my mom, you know? But it's almost like this, again,

Speaker 5 traditional, like, they have to ask you. And then it's official.

Speaker 1 It's, you know, you're talking to a very non-traditional guy.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 Listen,

Speaker 1 you don't even share, but, but that's the thing is, is he doesn't even share that tradition, you know? So it's like.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 5 in my head, it's like if you're if you're expressing that you think something is special and that you would want something, wouldn't the other person like want to do that?

Speaker 1 Sure, but like the way you're saying it is, that's such a loaded question in a sense. Like, yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 Sure, but like you also have to acknowledge the variables that are at play here. You know, you're dating a guy who's a little bit younger than you, who has no dating experience.

Speaker 1 So, you know, he's maybe in a lot of of ways is following your lead. You know, and in a lot of ways, you're going to show him kind of how to conduct himself in a relationship.

Speaker 1 That is a downside of dating someone with limited dating experience. You know, the upside, there's upsides of that too.
You know, there's upsides and downsides of everything.

Speaker 1 You got to take the good with the bad.

Speaker 1 But like, I think your, let's call it stubbornness to like follow a certain code or steps or process or tradition, a tradition that the way you describe it is more your mom's tradition than your tradition or society's standards rather than your standards.

Speaker 1 You guys are pretending. It's like you're almost pretending not to be boyfriend or girlfriend for a variety of reasons.
One, to appease your mom. Two, to make him feel comfortable.

Speaker 1 I don't know, to make you guys both, I don't know, feel more comfortable with things.

Speaker 1 But like the point is, is that if either of you wanted out of this relationship tomorrow, you guys would have to act like boyfriend and girlfriend. Right.
And it would feel like you lost a boyfriend.

Speaker 1 And when you say,

Speaker 1 we're boyfriend and girlfriend, and he's like, I don't know if I'm ready yet, be like, well, how would it feel if I told you I have feelings for another guy?

Speaker 1 And you should say it almost as if you maybe do. And because he should be like, well, that would, do you? You know, and you'd be like, no.

Speaker 1 Like, well, it, would it, but if I did, would it, you know, if you're not my boyfriend, then I don't think I owe you anything.

Speaker 1 Do you think I would owe you something if I met a guy that I had feelings for and wanted to have sex with? And he'd probably be like, yeah. Like, well, that sounds like to me a boyfriend.

Speaker 1 And like, I don't, to me, it's just like, you, again, you could be boyfriend and girlfriend one day and you could decide to break up the next.

Speaker 1 And if you broke up tomorrow, it's like, what's and like, is it, what is he? Some guy you dated or is it going to be my, you know, is he really not going to be an ex?

Speaker 5 Yeah. I guess that's like what I, yeah.

Speaker 5 I call it like a situationship, which I normally, I hate that term. I agree with you.
I think it's dumb. I think you're either dating or you're not.

Speaker 5 And because I've never gone through this before, I've always just either been getting to know a guy or we've been dating.

Speaker 5 I've never been in this like, again, gray area with somebody, even though it feels like we're totally dating, but just I've never gotten that question. So I'm like, technically, we're not.

Speaker 5 So it's just like a back and forth in my head type.

Speaker 1 Also, something I just want to point out to you. I have no problem with you being.
a more traditional person when it comes to love and dating.

Speaker 1 And if you have certain expectations of tradition that are centered around the man needs to do this, the man needs to do this, and I expect a man to do X, Y, or Z, then you probably should date someone with more experience.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't think you necessarily, I don't think you should break up with this guy just be, you know, but I think you should maybe ease off on the things that you think he should do that you shouldn't have to remind him of or you shouldn't have to bring up.

Speaker 1 Because, I mean, you decided. to date someone with less experience and that's totally okay because it sounds like you made it met a pretty nice guy and there's something there.

Speaker 1 But it's not necessarily fair to him to have these expectations about things that he might not even really fully be aware of or know about.

Speaker 1 And I don't really honestly say, I doesn't say anything about your guy's relationship or connection if you initiate some things.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Along the way, you can set an expectation of I'd like you to do X, Y, R, Z, but like, you know, I don't know, it's 2024.

Speaker 1 You can still be traditional and you can still play the role in a heterosexual relationship of the more kind of feminine role, you know,

Speaker 1 the role of the women if you're more traditional.

Speaker 1 And you can still be the one who makes the first move from time to time. You can still plan a date, you know,

Speaker 1 for once in a while. You can still like pay for a dinner if you fail like, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 And you can, and the core of your relationship can still be fairly traditional where he leads and you follow and yada, yada, yada. But like for everything,

Speaker 1 without exception,

Speaker 1 at the risk of

Speaker 1 you not having clarity that you desire. But you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 And prior to getting your advice, because it's been brought up multiple times, I just didn't know if I should have another conversation because in my head, I was like, if I keep bringing this up, it almost sounds like I'm like begging somebody to do something that in my head should come from

Speaker 5 their own

Speaker 1 heart. I think you need to take the pressure off the situation and him a little bit.
He says he loves you. You're not dating other people.

Speaker 1 If you were, it would, if either of you were, it would crush the other person. It would feel like a breakup.

Speaker 1 So then why are you guys wasting energy wondering why you're not something you kind of really already are? You've just decided it needs to be this big moment and this step, an unnecessary step.

Speaker 1 I don't, you know, really get it.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So then another question is.

Speaker 5 If this,

Speaker 5 because I think I am more of the traditional, like I like those kinds of things, Like, do I have to set a boundary somehow if like this doesn't happen?

Speaker 5 Because honestly, I don't think I'm willing. I don't, I, I would hate to lose this person.

Speaker 1 Okay. Um, that's so I know if it's important for you to know.

Speaker 5 Yes. Yeah.
I would hate to lose this person, but I knew that, like, I know that if I have a conversation with them and I say, hey, like, this is really important to me. It hasn't happened, obviously.

Speaker 5 even though we act like we totally are. It's almost like in my head, if I put a timeline to it, then I risk losing the person and almost standing on

Speaker 5 like what I'm saying on if they don't ask me by a certain time, then,

Speaker 5 you know, then

Speaker 1 are you totally against? I mean, I'm being serious when I say if I were you,

Speaker 1 I would just say,

Speaker 1 we're boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I don't know if I'd totally feel like

Speaker 5 at peace with that because again, I like that. I would want that special moment.
But with after listening to you, it's almost like then, am I again, I'm sacrificing my peace and my client.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess like to at what cost?

Speaker 1 How special is this moment? How meaningful is this moment? Is it really that meaningful or have you told yourself it needs to be meaningful?

Speaker 5 I mean, it's just yeah, I guess because if he, if he were to ask me tomorrow,

Speaker 1 what is your expectation? Do you need a gift? Do you need like, what does he need to do to make this this special? I don't understand. Like, what? Yeah.

Speaker 5 And that's what I'm getting at. If he were to ask me tomorrow, I think nothing would really change because we're already a couple.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I just didn't think about it that way.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I just, you know, listen, like we all.
for a variety of reasons sometimes lock in on deciding it needs to be a certain way.

Speaker 1 And sometimes we can take a step back, reevaluate and ask ourselves, well, why does it need to be this way? Does it really impact my life the way I'm acting like it would?

Speaker 1 And personally, if you ask me,

Speaker 1 I don't think you're treating a boyfriend or girlfriend proposition, label, whatever, confirmation, like this, you're talking about it like it's an engagement.

Speaker 1 You're using the word like ultimatum, you know, and things like that.

Speaker 1 And, you know, this isn't like the traditional situationship where it's like one person really wants to be boyfriend and girlfriend and the other person is like,

Speaker 1 I'm not really sure we're definitely not dating we want to date other people like that's not what this is you know like this is the guy who said he loves you everything about your telling me is you act like boyfriend and girlfriend it's like you're confusing each other for no real good reasons other than you have told yourself uh that the boyfriend and girlfriend ask needs to be a really special moment because you like to be treated special as the lady in this relationship and he has complied and agreed with you.

Speaker 1 Honestly, not even sure what the fuck he was agreeing to because he doesn't really know. He's never really done this before.

Speaker 1 You know? And so he honestly is probably acting like in his mind, he's acting like, well, I have to really be ready. To me, it sounds like he's treating it like an engagement.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
And so in August, when he said, I want it to be special, and I was like, now it's December. Like, what is he prepping for? I guess.
Like,

Speaker 1 good question.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, it's not, that's not, it's not that special.
It's, it's just a label. It's just clarity.
It's, it's, it's peace of mind. What you want is peace of mind.

Speaker 1 If I were you, that's how I would look at it. And that's all you want.
And that's just the conversation, you know?

Speaker 1 And again, I, I'm not saying don't have expectations of having your boyfriend treat you special and do romantic things from time to time, but that should be all the time or occasionally, somewhat consistently.

Speaker 1 It doesn't, you know, doesn't need to be this.

Speaker 5 And we talk about that. Like I'm, I, I would consider myself a very like romantic person.
I've done like

Speaker 5 things in hopes of like, if I do certain things, like one, I want to show them that I care and I think it's cute to do certain things, like to be romantic.

Speaker 5 But obviously I have certain expectations too of the other person doing not the same things I do, but like showing me in different ways to be like romantic.

Speaker 5 And it's like, In your opinion, do you think if I almost have that conversation and kind of just solidify we are boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 5 Will that kind of take away from his efforts like in the future? How can I still hold him up to like an expectation of treating me special?

Speaker 1 Do you think he treats you special now?

Speaker 5 I think he does, but I think there's definitely room for,

Speaker 5 in my opinion, I think I'm more romantic than he is. Okay, well, and we've talked about that.

Speaker 1 So listen, that's all part.

Speaker 1 The answer to your question is I don't know, but that's all part of the process of dating and getting to knowing someone and dating and developing a relationship and an emotional connection is all about communication you're sounds like you communicate of a decent amount and adding to the fact that your boyfriend let's just call him your boyfriend uh is inexperienced it is going to require you setting expectations of what you want from him you don't just set expectations like day one of boyfriend being boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 1 You set new expectations every week, every day, every, you know, your expectations might change, your needs might change.

Speaker 1 You guys will should continue to communicate what you want, you know, and without being a nag or, or coming across as an ungrateful diva who's just asking for more, more, more, more, more.

Speaker 1 It is, you know, you're, you should communicate. what you want from him to feel loved, you know, and that is a conversation about love language.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, you should have a conversation about like what love languages are. Now, he might be like, I don't know what you mean.
I'm a 23-year-old guy with no experience.

Speaker 1 I don't know, you know but like you know that's where some of you're you're you're gonna have to coach this guy up a little bit and now that's a bit you know do you want to do that it sounds like you're willing to do that and that's okay but like yes there's not like you know most when it comes to dating i don't think most people and us and i guarantee you

Speaker 1 almost all men it's not like they're going out there to the library and be like how to be a boyfriend you know they learn through experience you know what i'm saying and you being potentially his first girlfriend the reality is is that he's probably not your guy

Speaker 1 who knows maybe Maybe, maybe he will be. I don't know.
But

Speaker 1 if you're his first real girlfriend, you are going to teach this man. You're going to have a profound impact on his life.
Right.

Speaker 1 Because everyone's first teaches him a lot about love and relationships, you know?

Speaker 1 But, and, and it will be, your challenge will be how to balance out showing this guy the ropes about how to be a boyfriend and how to be in a relationship while making sure the power dynamic remains equal as much as possible.

Speaker 5 Okay, so you suggest that I'm actually going to see him today. We're going on a double date.

Speaker 5 Depending on your advice, I was going to, well, regardless, I was going to try to play it cool and act like nothing.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 do you think it's...

Speaker 1 I just think, yeah, I would be like,

Speaker 5 it shouldn't have to be too serious. It should just be like a casual, like.

Speaker 1 I think you should say something. I think, honestly, I think we've been kind of a little silly, we, and use the word we, you know,

Speaker 1 I was talking to some friends.

Speaker 1 We are boyfriend and girlfriend, you know, you know, the words, the labels, whatever, but I, I don't know about you, but I just want the security. And that's the thing.

Speaker 1 We still have a lot to learn about each other. You know what I'm saying? You, you mentioned your mom.
It's like, oh, my mom thinks I should take it slow and get to know him.

Speaker 1 I agree with your mom, you know, and you guys being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't change that. Again,

Speaker 1 it's a label that doesn't really mean anything. What does it mean? I don't know.

Speaker 1 You can stop talking to him tomorrow, regardless of that label. You know, it's not changing what you would have to do if you wanted to end the relationship tomorrow.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, you're like, yeah, we still have a lot to get to know each other. We are at the very beginning of this relationship.
And us being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't change that.

Speaker 1 And that's another lesson for probably both of you, because I think a lot of people, when they're younger, they make the mistake of deciding to be boyfriend and girlfriend and then acting as if like they don't have to be intentional about like their relationship.

Speaker 1 You know, they just be like, well, we're boyfriend and girlfriend now. We have sex, we hang out, and that's all we do.

Speaker 1 That's true. But you have to, you have to talk about your dreams.
You have to talk about your expectations. You have to talk about what each other are like.

Speaker 1 Every once in a while, ask him about like how he, what makes him feel loved? How does he feel special? How can you support him? You know, how do you like to communicate when you're stressed out or

Speaker 1 things are not going the way you want? These are all variables that every couple has to figure out over time. A lot of these questions that is pros, you probably don't know the answer to.

Speaker 1 And that's why you both have a lot to get to know about each other. And being boyfriend and girlfriend or not being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't really change any of that.

Speaker 1 If you being boyfriend and girlfriend, it's not like if he says, well, you want to be my girlfriend.

Speaker 1 It's like the way you guys are thinking about it, it's like it's as if you're playing a video game and you reach a certain level.

Speaker 1 And then once you get to that certain level, you collect all the coins or something.

Speaker 1 And you guys are acting like, well, once he asked you to be his girlfriend, you're going to collect all these coins, coins being all this information about him that you're going to learn automatically because he's your boyfriend.

Speaker 1 And that's just not how it works. It's just a label.
And even though you're boyfriend and girlfriend, you're still going to still have to ask the questions.

Speaker 1 You're going to still have to be vulnerable. You're going to still have to be intentional when it comes to getting to know each other.
You're going to have to put in the work, you know, both of you.

Speaker 1 And that's what matters, putting in the work and giving a shit and caring about growing your relationship and building your connection. And that's what you two should be having conversations about.

Speaker 1 And that's what you two should be focused about. And you guys are focused about labels.
And he's planning an event that I don't even know why, you know, like, huh? It's like, for what reason?

Speaker 1 You know, you're already there. Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 Yeah. So time is of the essence.
And I'll have that quote-unquote conversation. I don't think it's much of a conversation.
It's just kind of solidifying what we already are.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.
And if he pushes back, then it's either a an experience on his part, him thinking he needs to push back, or more likely, there's a reason why he's pushing back.

Speaker 1 And you can remind him of the clip of me that you, it's like, well, what do you mean? Are you keeping your options open?

Speaker 1 Because if not, like in that moment where you played him that clip and he's like, yeah, he's probably right, but that doesn't apply to us. That was him saying, you're my girlfriend.

Speaker 1 Because if it doesn't apply to him, if he's not keeping his options open, then you're his girlfriend.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 Well, then I will sit with what you said, have a conversation with myself. Because again, I am holding on to that like traditional like step.

Speaker 5 And it is costing me a lot of like my clarity because it does kind of fog my head a lot.

Speaker 5 Cause month and month that keeps passing, I'm like, oh my gosh, I feel like we're only getting closer and like nothing's happened.

Speaker 1 Closer to what?

Speaker 5 like we're no like our connection is just getting stronger right yeah and

Speaker 5 but time just keeps passing and it's like it's not like we hide, you know, from the world.

Speaker 7 We're out there.

Speaker 5 We're acting like a couple. It's just, I just haven't had the question asked.
And I guess I'm holding on to that, which is costing me a lot of like.

Speaker 1 It'd be one thing if you were like, yeah, he's 33 years old and he's had a couple, you know, he's had like three serious girlfriends.

Speaker 1 You know, then I would have been like, you know, this guy should know better. But right.

Speaker 5 But he doesn't.

Speaker 1 But he doesn't. Oh, you, he's, you know, he's never had a girlfriend and you're like, it needs to be special.
Like, oh, fuck. Like, okay.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 I'll do my best version of what I think that means. And that's what it sounds like is going on right now.

Speaker 1 So when you say, hey, I think we're boyfriend and girlfriend already, and you kind of keep it light and you have hopefully you guys, he's like, yeah, I guess we are. And you guys laugh about it.

Speaker 1 That doesn't change that we, you know, we're. We're still at the very early stage of our relationship and we do have a lot to get to know each other about each other.

Speaker 1 And I want us to be intentional about growing our connection. And I want us to make the effort every day to building this relationship because regardless of our labels,

Speaker 1 we have to put in the work for this thing to grow. And that's the conversation you should have with them.
All right.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. All right.
Keep me posted. Let me know what

Speaker 1 happens.

Speaker 5 Okay. We'll do.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Take care.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 5 You too. Bye-bye.

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 6 Good. My name is Alice.
I'm 29 and I haven't been able to make any new connection in a year. So wondering how to get out of my dating raft okay what have you been doing

Speaker 6 uh that makes you feel like you should be making connections that you're not making yeah um maybe that's also like the point is i guess i'm not doing much about it i'm finding it really hard okay um what part are you finding hard I think like just opening up to someone new and like also just letting someone new in my space.

Speaker 6 I find that quite scary.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 You said you're 29?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.
What's your relationship history?

Speaker 6 So yeah, basically I've been single for two years now.

Speaker 6 And before that, I was in a very serious relationship over

Speaker 6 five years where we lived together, had a cat together.

Speaker 6 And then so I ended that relationship two years ago or almost two years ago.

Speaker 6 Since then, obviously, just kind of needed some time to get back to, you know, being an independent person and finding my groove.

Speaker 1 How did that relationship end? Would it end

Speaker 1 amicably? Was it difficult?

Speaker 6 I mean, basically, like, I've heard you guys talk about this a lot on this podcast, you know, this kind of like relationship where it starts and it's like amazing and we move in together and everything's great.

Speaker 6 And then we don't necessarily take care of like making our connection stronger over time. And it felt like.
On my end, I was

Speaker 6 doing therapy and just like trying to work on my life and my happiness a lot. And then he was, I just felt like quite depressed.

Speaker 6 And I tried to help him for a while and tried to, you know, give him cues of like how he could improve himself. And

Speaker 6 yeah, just also, you know,

Speaker 6 make our life a bit nicer. And he didn't take any of those.

Speaker 6 So it ended up with me having to kind of, yeah, throw in the towel and move on, which was obviously difficult, but also like I needed to do that. And it's been obviously a really good

Speaker 6 yeah decision on my part.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 So overall, it wasn't like the, you know, as sad as it might have been to have to end the relationship, it wasn't like you felt good about the decision and you didn't really have to necessarily heal from the decision that was made.

Speaker 6 No, I think, yeah, like the definitely, I think like giving giving that relationship up was like more easy to give him up, even a bit difficult to say and maybe horrible.

Speaker 6 But then I think like maybe I hadn't quite

Speaker 6 made peace with the fact that I'm also like losing the relationship part or having like a partner and you know being someone's person. And I think that's something that I'm struggling with right now.

Speaker 1 And so that was two years ago.

Speaker 1 And then it sounds like

Speaker 1 you mentioned therapy, you mentioned kind of just doing what people do out of relationships, kind of focusing on themselves, right? But like, how, and so how much dating have you been doing lately?

Speaker 6 Yeah, so I think like when I was freshly out of the relationship, I gave myself a few months, didn't feel like quite ready to open up to anyone.

Speaker 6 And then I felt like, you know, summer was coming, things were getting fun and I wanted to have some fun. So that was great.

Speaker 6 And then, so, yeah, I just kind of like dated people on apps and kind of just like friends of friends and just like acquaintances and stuff like this, which was fun.

Speaker 6 Until I basically met a guy who was part of my friends group with whom, I know I was interested.

Speaker 6 And then it just kind of happened. And then after that, we just had like this really intense situationship.

Speaker 6 So obviously still not ready to commit to anything. He was in the similar position.
We were having some fun and it was great. We're basically seeing each other like a lot.
It was super intense.

Speaker 6 And then

Speaker 6 I realized I was kind of like catching feelings and it was kind of getting me again in like head fucks. And I was kind of just like, okay, well, I've, you know.

Speaker 6 Yeah, did a lot to try and leave my previous relationship to kind of like get peace of mind. So I'm not going to try and get into something that like gets me into new head fucks.

Speaker 6 So I just decided that it was better to just leave it here. So, I told him that I thought it'd be better to just end it there.

Speaker 6 So, it was like, I don't know, maybe the better part of two months of a relationship. And then, after that, I actually happened to be super hurt from this whole situation.

Speaker 6 It just kind of lingered on for months and months and months and months, which made me very emotionally unavailable. Um, and then I was trying to date, but I think why did it linger?

Speaker 1 Why did it linger?

Speaker 6 Because,

Speaker 6 well we're part of the same group of friends um

Speaker 6 and he like yeah we'd like bump into each other he also would be like you know uh hitting me up in the dms and just like trying to get things going again not like in a serious way just kind of like you up and stuff like this would you have been interested in exploring something serious if he really wanted to the thing is like at the time when i when i let it go No, like it just didn't even seem like a possibility like at all.

Speaker 6 But then obviously, I don't know It's just been like really hard to let go of this like what could have been situation with him and He's like yeah basically like up until now like it's been a year that we have never slept together again We've never like you know, we've had like back and forth.

Speaker 1 It was a lot of like just yeah, well do you think about him push?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I do okay.

Speaker 1 Well, that's something

Speaker 1 When you call, so when you initially, when the conversation started, you said you're just like having a hard time, you know, finding a connection.

Speaker 1 How did you say it specifically?

Speaker 6 Yeah, like just it, yeah, just like, yeah, making a real connection with someone.

Speaker 1 Yeah, a real connection. What does that mean to you? What is a real connection?

Speaker 1 If you were giving me a TED Talk or we met on the street and you were to describe the type of connection that you're looking for, give me a little

Speaker 1 one-sentence.

Speaker 6 Yeah, something where I feel seen and

Speaker 6 where I feel like I can

Speaker 6 trust someone that they see me as a person. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And not just like a body to use.

Speaker 1 Sure. Okay.

Speaker 1 That makes sense.

Speaker 1 That's very valid. Those things that you're describing take time.
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, and I think,

Speaker 1 I think you're probably going through something, if I had to guess, is something similar to a lot of people

Speaker 1 go through

Speaker 1 in their adult dating life, whether it's in their mid to late 20s or in their 30s.

Speaker 1 And I've talked about this before, you know, like when we're younger, you know, when you were 18, 19, 20, 21, relatively inexperienced with love and dating, you're more reactive, you know, you feel something and you just chase those feelings.

Speaker 1 And it's just much easier to feel things because ignorance is bliss. You know, you're just like, I feel something.
This is great. Let's do this.

Speaker 1 Whether it's be boyfriend and girlfriend, hook up, I don't know. Like you're just kind of, you're responding to your feelings.

Speaker 1 But then, you know, you date, you have relationships, there's a little, you mix a little bit of heartbreak, disappointment, whatever it is. You have a situationship, yada, yada.

Speaker 1 You, you date different people, you learn about yourself, what you've liked in these relationships, what you didn't like in these relationships.

Speaker 1 And so as we get older, you know, how we, I think we struggle. And I, and I went through this a lot.
I, I mean, I, this, this was my 30s, all of my 30s.

Speaker 1 You know, I was, I, well, part of, don't worry, I'm not trying to scare you. Part of it is like, you know, I grew up in a very traditional household.
I was a young, romantic guy, so to speak.

Speaker 1 And I had, you know, I was very earnest when it came to like wanting to be a great boyfriend and find love. And I had some great girlfriends in my 20s.

Speaker 1 They taught me a lot about myself and kind of fucked me up all at the same time. And then I ended those relationships.

Speaker 1 And then as I entered into my 30s, for the first time in my life, I was comfortable with being single. You know, throughout my 20s, the idea of being single,

Speaker 1 there was no good part about being single. I was either in a relationship or I was a loser in my mind.
You know, like that was just kind of how I felt, right? I think.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I feel like I'm battling between these things where I feel like, yeah, I'm obviously enjoying a lot being single, living on my own for the first time.

Speaker 6 Like, you know, having been in a relationship where things are not great by the end and like just being able to just be like, whoa, this is me.

Speaker 6 And no one's going to be there to tell me, oh, you've changed or you're doing this differently or like whatever. Like, this is super enjoyable.

Speaker 6 And just knowing that, like, yeah, I can just do my own thing. But also, at the same time, it doesn't feel like life is supposed to be lived on your own.

Speaker 6 And I'm like, I have a great circle of friends, and they're all in beautiful, amazing relationships.

Speaker 6 And like, this is a type of group of friends where you're not just friends with one of the partners, it's like all of us. And it's just like, I'm the single friend.
And it

Speaker 6 just makes me feel like I'm not dating. I'm enjoying being single.
I want to meet someone. Like, how do we make these things meet in the middle?

Speaker 1 Well, the fact that you mentioned the part about your friend dynamic, I think is an important part that you left out. Right.

Speaker 1 And so if nothing else, you just have to recognize that the fact that all of your friends are in these wonderful relationships and you're kind of the odd person out right now is going to feel a certain way, so to speak.

Speaker 1 And it's going to amplify the feeling of loneliness in being single, especially when compared to your friends.

Speaker 1 but that is a manufactured feeling it is not it and i would be very careful to base your decisions based off that feeling because as i'm sure you know half of those relationships won't work out yeah down the road some of them yeah maybe some of them some i'm some some of them will some of them you know we don't really know right like maybe all of them will i but you know even if they got married you know we all know the divorce rate type of thing you know when when they won't work out i don't know i'm just simply saying as they say that compare, you know, the comparison is the thief of joy.

Speaker 1 So I think it's just something to be mindful when you can acknowledge that, hey, all my friends have relationships and I'm, I'm happy, but also a little envious of them.

Speaker 1 It's just, it's just, it's important to acknowledge that because that allows you to give yourself a little bit more grace. It's like, it's a giving yourself intentional grace.

Speaker 1 Like we all talk about giving ourself grace, but we actually have to like have the intention of doing that. We have to say, hey, this is why I deserve grace.

Speaker 1 I deserve grace because all my friends are in this relationship. And while I'm happy for them, it's hard not to want a relationship for myself.
And so

Speaker 1 I really beat myself up sometimes because I'm single. But much of that feeling is because of who I'm surrounding myself with.

Speaker 1 If I had a bunch of single friends, if you had five single friends who were just like in their single era and you had so much fun with these women or men, whoever they were that were single and you were planning trips together and you were hanging out and when one of you kind of met someone, the other, the other like five or six single people would be like, Are you sure you want to date them?

Speaker 1 Cause you're going to ruin our single dynamic?

Speaker 1 This feeling that you're feeling wouldn't be as amplified. It just wouldn't be, right? So,

Speaker 6 I'm not saying it is very amplified when I'm surrounded by

Speaker 6 in like, yeah,

Speaker 1 and I don't think it should change your friends.

Speaker 1 I mean, you might be, you know, it might do you well, you know, as you remain, if you remain single to explore being open to single friends some single friends but listen like i said like more importantly i think you should just acknowledge that that's driving some of these feelings and so it's just giving yourself some grace to not you know allow you go to going down those kind of rabbit holes of of living in those feelings of feeling single if someone was to tell me like oh for a fact like I don't know, down the line within your life, even if it's like when I'm 57, you'll meet the love of your life and they're amazing.

Speaker 6 And this is is like, you will, you won't experience like loneliness forever and you will find your person. Then I feel like I'd be like enjoying this so much more.

Speaker 1 Okay. And

Speaker 6 then maybe like open and then maybe like open myself up to like exploring with other people or like, but then I'm just like kind of looking at every corner. Is it you? Is it you?

Speaker 6 And then like I'm not talking to them and I don't let them talk to me. So it's like, how am I even going to even like, you know? Well,

Speaker 1 so yeah, you've said a lot of things there. Well, one, if you can, and I love that you have that perspective, right? If you can, in fact, have the long-term thinking and the

Speaker 1 sensible thought that like, you know, you don't need to meet your person tomorrow or even next year, that you're, you just, you just want to have that peace of mind that you will. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just tell yourself you will. Because the chances that you're going, if you want to find a life partner and you're willing to be patient to find that life partner, nothing's a guarantee.

Speaker 1 But I'd say your chances of eventually landing on that person are really high. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Speaker 6 I kind of feel like, yeah, I need to be selective, but then at the same, like not selective, but obviously like just follow something that feels natural. Like that's the thing.

Speaker 6 Like I feel like, so basically recently, like I've had one date, like literally one day in the last six months. And it was exciting.
Like he was just a guy from the apps.

Speaker 6 And I was kind of, yeah, like. excited to go, excited to meet him.
He was slightly older than me and like an artist and like it just, you know, seemed fun.

Speaker 6 And then we did meet and he was supposed to, like, he was kind of like, oh, yeah, like, don't have much time. I can just stay for like one drink or two.

Speaker 6 And then we ended up like staying there for like five hours, having like drinks and drinking drinks and just having like great chats and laughing a lot.

Speaker 6 He was like, definitely flatty, like, you know, getting physical, like, you know, putting

Speaker 6 holding, like, I don't know, like my leg or something or whatever. And like, so all of the signs were green.
He walked me back home and then basically like was completely not communicative on texts.

Speaker 6 So I was kind of like trying to, you know, be like, hey, you around? Like, you know, do you want to do this? Like maybe once. And then he was like, oh, sorry, it wasn't on my phone.

Speaker 6 And then he was like, oh, yeah, but for sure, next week. And then never reached out.
And then I'm just there waiting.

Speaker 6 And I don't know, I think like a few days ago, my friend took my phone and just sent him like one last text just to see if it was me or if like.

Speaker 6 if I should just reach out and then something would happen. He just never responded.
And I'm just like, what the hell?

Speaker 6 Like, you know, and then I'm just like, oh, how do I find it exciting to date people if like it goes well? And then this person, like, for completely no reason, like, I know of.

Speaker 1 I mean, who, we don't know the reason, right? The reason probably is he's an artist, you know, like, you know, he's in the, he's in the creative.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm being sarcastic, but you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe he's just not looking for that or who knows, right?

Speaker 6 But then why meet people, you know?

Speaker 1 Well, well, I think that's where you need to change your mindset a little bit, you know? And also keep in mind, you described a really lovely, nice date.

Speaker 1 You know, you met for drinks and you weren't planning on staying longer. You ended up staying longer than you thought you would.
You had a nice chat. That's nice.

Speaker 1 But, like, what did you really learn about the guy? Nothing. Right.

Speaker 6 And so, right, that's the thing. I wanted to see if a vibe would get going.

Speaker 1 Sure, but for whatever reason, for whatever reason, he didn't. Right.

Speaker 1 And now, and I say your ego jumps in, but like, you got to remember, like, you know, like, this is all about

Speaker 1 our entire conversation up until this point has been about your finding your one person,

Speaker 1 whenever that is, right?

Speaker 1 Knowing that you want to spend life with someone and you have the self-awareness and maturity to know that, you know, well, hey, listen, you can't predict that you're going to walk out of your apartment and get hit by a car and die tomorrow.

Speaker 1 Like, knock on what. Let's just hope that doesn't happen.
But let's all assume that we're going to live long, fruitful lives.

Speaker 1 that you're a young person, you're 29 years old, you have many wonderful years ahead of you, and you have the maturity to know that, like, I don't need it to happen in the next five years.

Speaker 1 I just want to happen soon-ish,

Speaker 1 and so that I can enjoy my life with someone, right? And that's great, that's a great, that's an amazing goal to have, right? And you should hold on to that goal.

Speaker 1 Now, you just have to not make dating more confusing than it needs to be by like comparing yourself to your friends,

Speaker 1 allowing your ego to

Speaker 1 get stuck emotionally on these men who maybe you have a little intrigue and excitement about, but don't return the favor. And instead of just accepting

Speaker 1 their decision and letting them kind of do what they want to do,

Speaker 1 now you're letting your ego be like, well, why didn't, you know, what, what the fuck? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and

Speaker 1 is it me? And start asking your, you know, whatever. So there's that part.
And then there's the other part of the part I really struggled with, you know?

Speaker 1 And then you add to the fact that I go on reality TV, I go on The Bachelor, I go on a franchise where it basically it recreates what it feels like to be 19 again.

Speaker 1 That's honestly what that experience is like, right? It gives you permission to just like, if it feels good, say yes. That's kind of the energy and the environment that you're in.

Speaker 1 You really just kind of go down that road, right? And so

Speaker 1 then it was easy for me to quote unquote fall in love again. So if, you know, and then I, you know, got out of that world and that relationship ended.

Speaker 1 And so it was like, I knew how to fall in love when I was 19 and 20. I knew how to fall in love when I was on reality TV.

Speaker 1 But I had some genuine fears of like, how am I going to know how, like, how like, I don't know, like, it was just like, how do I fall in love with someone now that I'm a little more cynical, a little more guarded, a lot more particular?

Speaker 1 You know, I can meet people pretty quickly and realize what I, I'm not interested anymore. Yeah, you know, like, yeah, this is where I'm at.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just like, you know, I've had enough sex in my life, or it's just like, I don't, like, I'm not like, I don't need to, like, I'm not trying to go out and get laid. So it's like, you know,

Speaker 6 like it brings nothing to me. Like, I think I did it like start of the summer.
I was like, okay, I need to prove to myself I can still do it. So I just went on this date with this guy.

Speaker 6 I didn't even really like him, but I just wanted to see if I could like make it to the bed.

Speaker 6 and so i did and it felt like why did i even do that like not obviously not a bad experience but couldn't just

Speaker 1 do nothing to my life because you're a human being i think as humans and adults we have we constantly battle fulfilling our short-term needs and desires and our long-term needs and our desires and those are almost never aligned you know

Speaker 1 like my law i have a long-term desire to be healthy be in the best shape you know keep up with my much younger wife um yada yada and my short-term desire is like, I want to eat that cookie.

Speaker 1 I want to, you know, smoke that weed, you know, I want to do those things that like,

Speaker 1 is this helping me meet my long-term goal? Ah, probably not, but it's feeling good right now. So dating is the same way, right? So you're going to, every day in dating in life, you're going to be.

Speaker 1 given your long-term choices and short-term choices, right?

Speaker 1 And you're, listen, you're always going to make choices every day that are more beneficial to your short-term needs over your long-term needs just like that that's what happened when you hooked up with that guy and then afterwards you're like why did i do that you know that's going to happen right don't beat yourself up but maybe remind yourself that how you felt the next day so you know the next time next time a similar opportunity presents itself you maybe don't give into the moment so how do you go about getting out of this rut and finding a connection it's it's it's not gonna be an answer maybe you love is part of it is you're gonna have to just get out there and you're just gonna have to do that with like like actually want like i'm on these apps and like honestly i just like i have to convince myself like that then there might be something interesting about that person like i'm really trying to though that's what i'm saying so when i when i asked you what does a meaningful connection or whatever it was means to you you talked about being seen you talked about trust right are the things are the two things you mentioned and like i said those things take time you're not going to be able to go on the app or even to a bar or the grocery store or wherever and meet someone and immediately know that this person's going to see you for who you are and that they're someone you can trust, right?

Speaker 1 You're not going to know much of anything. You're going to know how they look and you might be able to figure out if they have any kind of sense of humor.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, you might be able to learn some very super superficial things about them, certainly the things they're willing to tell you, but you're not going to learn much about them. That's the thing.

Speaker 6 It's like the first version of that person you meet is like so great. And then, you know, a couple of weeks in and you're like, oh, wow, great.
What a waste of my time.

Speaker 1 So you're going to, yeah.

Speaker 1 But that's the thing you're gonna waste some time the remedy to get over that is stop looking at it as this is all about meeting your person take a step back from the expectations and to say right now i'm i'm single and i'm just exploring people yeah a lot of these people are are men that i'm going on dates with but like take the pressure of every date you go on having to figure out whether this is going to be your person or not because you can't figure that out on a first date you can't figure that out on a second date that's exactly what i'm doing i'm looking at these pictures and i'm like would i introduce this person to my friends Yeah, I don't fuck if I know.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you're not going to, honestly, you're not going to know that after five dates.
And honestly, meet introducing people to your friends.

Speaker 1 You can, you can introduce a guy to your friend and not marry him. It's okay.
You know what I'm saying? Like,

Speaker 1 so you, you have to change your approach because I think you're still kind of taking the approach I'm guessing you took when you were younger, you know? And that's kind of what we all did.

Speaker 1 And you're going to have to be a little bit more. You're going to have to explore a little bit more.
You're going to have to be a little bit more open-minded than you otherwise would be.

Speaker 1 B, you're going to have to be willing to meet people, right? And get to know them.

Speaker 1 And you're going to have to accept the fact that nine out of 10 of these people are just going to be one-offs, people that you're probably not going to want to see again. And

Speaker 1 you could tell yourself that was a waste of your time, or you can tell yourself, hey, I met a person. I met an interesting person.
It was better than sitting at home with my cat.

Speaker 1 No offense to your cat.

Speaker 1 And it was a story to tell, good or a bad date. It's a fun story.
It's it's a memory you will share.

Speaker 1 And I promise you, whenever you meet that person, you know, like now that I'm happily married and have a kid, I don't sit there and like think about exes, but like, yeah, you reflect on all, you, you reflect on what it took to, for you to get there.

Speaker 6 The journey. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that, and it's a good memory. And, and, and it's not, it's just not the good memories.
It's the good and bad memories. They're all good memories once you get to your destination.

Speaker 1 Because you got to.

Speaker 6 I think it's, it's like, I don't know. I feel like I, yeah, I'm definitely like not being open to exploring people.

Speaker 6 And I'm coming in any sort of like interest situation that I have with like maybe way more expectations in the balance than like there should be.

Speaker 6 But then at the same time, like this, this situationship that I had like last year,

Speaker 6 I just didn't expect that it would like rock me that hard.

Speaker 6 And now I feel like obviously it's just made me like super guarded because I'm like, well, maybe if it doesn't doesn't even look like something that's going to hurt, like I might.

Speaker 6 And I just have like a whole lot of like life situation right now where I have a lot of things to do and a lot of things to get to. And it's like, it completely derailed my mindset.

Speaker 6 And for a long time, and I feel like I can't really afford to do that right now.

Speaker 6 But then at the same time, when I sit lonely, I, it, it's kind of like, well, I, I'm not even like putting myself out there.

Speaker 1 That is just, you know, that's just something you're going to have to figure out, you know, and that's this kind of prioritizing your life. And again, your short-term needs and long-term needs, right?

Speaker 1 My guess is you're probably, I don't want to say exaggerating, but you're probably in your head a little bit more than you need to be.

Speaker 1 Why did that situationship end again, remind me?

Speaker 6 Oh, because I was catching feelings and it wasn't like it, there was nothing to try and make happen. So I just decided to do that.

Speaker 1 Why was there nothing to try to make happen?

Speaker 6 Because he was very much in like, yeah, just out of a relationship. I mean, he was like party boy, boy, buckboy situation.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 6 So he, like, I just, yeah, when we met,

Speaker 6 like, it'd be one night and it would be fun.

Speaker 1 And when you think about him, what do you think about? What do you miss?

Speaker 6 Yeah, we just had like instant. Um, well, the thing is, yeah, with him, like, he just kind of make made it happen.
Like, I didn't even need to do anything.

Speaker 6 He just like put his phone number in my phone, told me to text him. He was there a couple of hours at my house later, then was the one to kind of like just lead the whole thing.

Speaker 6 So I kind of, I think I really enjoyed that.

Speaker 6 He was giving me loads of validation i didn't expect him to even text me the next day and then like here we are like seeing each other like three nights a week um you know texting every day so i just like yeah i think that it was just this thing of like he just took the lead he fancied me a lot he made me feel great um and then i was just like yeah safing on this high um that it gave me so i think yeah there was this and then we had like loads of like like common interests, like laugh at the same things, we're the same friends, like listen to the same music, like the same sort of like activities.

Speaker 6 So it's just like so smooth

Speaker 6 and fun.

Speaker 1 Well, the first part you described, that is easily replicable, hard to find, but easily no one's coming at me. Well, that's what I'm saying.
I knew you were going to disagree with that, Cam.

Speaker 1 I'm just saying, like, what you're, you're, what you're talking about is chemistry.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And chemistry, I always say, is hard to trust, but easy to manufacture. The second part is way more important, the compatibility that you talked about that you shared with them.

Speaker 1 That's much harder to find with people that you also fancy, right? Like, cause, you know, I'm sure you're compatible with a lot of people that you don't fancy.

Speaker 1 But I'm just saying chemistry is, chemistry is a thing that we're constantly, that we, way, we over prioritize in dating.

Speaker 1 Like you want to, you, it's like, I want a guy who's going to do these kind of superficial, immediate things. He show, you mentioned he really made me feel like he liked me.
Yeah. You know,

Speaker 1 that's nice, but that, that doesn't show you that he's, he can be your partner. You know what I'm saying? That, that can show you that he can be a good time.

Speaker 1 You know, that shit can show show you he can make you feel good in the moment. Like, again, like a really charming, tall,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 Lafario.

Speaker 6 He wasn't even that tall.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? A guy who's this naturally charismatic and good looking. And then some, you know, like, you know, if you, if you have chemistry, you have chemistry.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's a little bit of that.
So I think part of it is just, again, I think you have to be willing. to change your approach in dating.

Speaker 1 I still think that you're doing, and again, part of it is like human nature. You're chasing the the same feelings that you were chasing when you were younger.

Speaker 1 And you're still evaluating how you feel about people the same way you evaluated it when you were younger.

Speaker 1 And now that you're 29, now that you have a lot of dating experience, now that you have a lot more clarity on like what you like and what you don't like, you're going to have to be willing to be more patient and not give in to that, you know, immediate spark when you like when you find that immediate spark, you have to say, okay, well, I'm excited.

Speaker 1 I'm excited, but I still don't know this person. And I have to, I have to take a step back, slow down and get to know this person.

Speaker 1 And when you don't immediately have a spark, but you find some moments of compatibility, you have to be willing to still explore that to see if a spark can be created over time. Right.

Speaker 1 So it's a little, it's a, it's a balancing act, right? Yeah. Yeah.
That makes sense. And so, yeah, like

Speaker 1 you're, you're still kind of hoping that, you know, someone just shows up at your door and you have this instant chemistry and then you find out, oh, we're compatible and this, we should date.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I mean, that would be nice. And maybe that will happen.
But nowadays with hookup culture being what it is, right?

Speaker 1 You mentioned like you don't want to feel like just some like body that guys can have sex with, right? And the problem is hookup culture has been so normalized.

Speaker 1 that like it's it's easier to get naked and have sex with a stranger than it is to say will you be my boyfriend or girlfriend you know and that's just crazy and not normal.

Speaker 1 And we definitely need to change that. But like, you have to have clear boundaries of what you want to do on dating.

Speaker 1 If, if you are going to, if you're going to decide to hook up with someone that you, you know, have had less, you know, a handful of dates with, then you have to remind yourself you're doing it because you want to get laid, you know, and

Speaker 1 maybe you still will get to know this person, but you're not having sex with them to build anything.

Speaker 1 You're just having sex with them to have sex with them because sex does not help guys make emotional connections.

Speaker 1 It actually does almost the opposite.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's kind of also how like I was kind of like on this first date with this guy that I saw recently, I was kind of like, oh, like I was kind of glad that he said he's got stuff to do in the morning and can't stay late.

Speaker 6 Cause I was like, well, great, because that like puts that off the table and it's actually super nice for me to just come in and just be able to have a chat and see what's going on. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And for that not to be an option. And then I don't know, like he walked me home and I feel like he was being a bit physical and I was being quite like standoffish.

Speaker 6 Like I was obviously engaging with him, but I find it difficult to like have people come in my space, note that I didn't like it, but it was obviously like a little bit like, whoa, okay.

Speaker 6 And then I thought maybe like that's why he never contacted me again is because I like didn't give the vibe that, you know, this could

Speaker 1 be there. We don't care why he didn't contact you again.
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 That is all your ego.

Speaker 1 And listen, we all have the ego. And if I were you, I'd probably do the same thing you were doing.
So I'm not trying, you know, but you have to, you have to remind yourself it's getting you nowhere.

Speaker 1 Who knows? We don't know. There's a million reasons why.
And most of them aren't, have nothing to do with you.

Speaker 1 It just, I don't know. It just was like, I don't, I don't know.
I just didn't want to. And the reason is probably like the same reason you might not.

Speaker 1 I remember like when I was really very single in my 30s, right? Just kind of out there dating and just met a lot of nice women. And, you know, I met a lot of nice women.

Speaker 1 And there'd be a lot of times I'd go on dates and I'd be sitting across, I'd finish a date and I'm like, this is a beautiful woman, you know?

Speaker 1 And then I was like, yeah, it was a pretty nice conversation. But I was just like, I don't know.
Like, it just, I don't know. I just didn't, I wasn't compelled to want to do it.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know what the reason was.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, because I was older and, you know, and like, I was like, well, I don't really, I don't want to, I don't, and it just kind of felt like, I don't know, I just didn't have that urge to want to do it.

Speaker 1 And maybe that was his reason, right? Like, it was this, maybe he just wasn't in the right space, you know, to do it, you know?

Speaker 1 And that's in that and him not reaching out to you is much better than the alternative. The alternative being a guy who just like wants to have someone,

Speaker 1 you know, keeps it going and keeps it going, you know, because you're pleasant enough and you've had some nice conversations and you know, you know, we have some pretty, you know, good sex and it's she's just, it's, he's just there, but I don't really know how I feel.

Speaker 1 And then you get stuck in this like thing that you is going nowhere fast. So

Speaker 1 you're very right. That's way better, you know? And so the only thing

Speaker 1 you got to just, you know, you got to let your ego not take over and stop figuring out why you weren't good enough or why he wasn't obsessed with you and yada, yada, and

Speaker 1 things like that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I don't know. After that, it like really did make me feel like, what is it about me? You know, like, why doesn't like, yeah, so stupid, obviously, but like, why isn't he obsessed with me?

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, listen, the challenge of

Speaker 1 being a confident person is that we have to control our egos. Because to be confident, we have to have that we have to have an ego that says, why not me? Why not me?

Speaker 1 You know, if I wouldn't be able to do what I've done in life if I didn't have a little bit of delusion of like, why not me?

Speaker 1 Why shouldn't it be me? I could do that. And then I got to work and I took some risks, whatever, but like it starts with a little bit of, why not me?

Speaker 1 And that why not me is your ego saying, yeah, you're special and you're good enough.

Speaker 1 And then when, and when, and when that isn't met by that person not reaching out and when someone says no, or we find out, well, when we say, why not me?

Speaker 1 And someone's like, well, because I don't want it to be, you know, it's not going to be you, you know, then we get a little triggered or we get a little activated.

Speaker 1 And that's where 29-year-old you has to say, hey, let's not get in a rut. Let's, let's not get centered on this guy.
Let's not get obsessed with why not me. Let's not talk to that.

Speaker 1 That's just wasted energy on your part. You're just, you're focusing on things that are getting you nowhere.
Right. And it's like, I don't know.
He just, he just did it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know why. I don't.
He's a stranger. He's a stranger that I had one night conversation with that was lovely.
That's it. That's all that happened.

Speaker 6 It's a bit ridiculous to maybe.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We could spend three hours smoking a joint and thinking of a bunch of different reasons why he didn't call you back, all of which could have been possible because you have no fucking clue who this guy is

Speaker 1 and why he didn't call you back. Because we all, everything we made up would be just as possible as the next.

Speaker 6 I guess I get a bit too excited.

Speaker 1 i guess yeah it was the first thing that happened in a while it was surprisingly nice i was expecting nothing obviously and then yeah it just like was like this little confirmation of like get off the apps there's no point so that's not true you were expecting something if you were truly expecting nothing then you would have been able to appreciate that moment for what it was a really nice first date and it was really nice for you to feel anything and have a nice connection after like not having that in a while.

Speaker 1 You know, if you really had no expectations, you would truly be able to appreciate the moment for what it was, a beautiful night. But you had expectations.

Speaker 1 Your expectations were, if I like this guy, I expect him to like me back.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, it just did feel like there was a mutual like, sure. So it was surprising.
Like I was kind of just like excited. Oh, cool.

Speaker 6 Like I'm excited to try and like see him again, see if there is something

Speaker 6 in there. And then like for him not to like, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I understand that.

Speaker 6 Because then I got excited and I didn't want to be on the apps. I was just kind of like focused on, you know, like just seeing what happens here.
Like, oh, great.

Speaker 6 I don't need to be like trying to find the next date because I fucking big myself up and now I did it and I don't want to have to do it again.

Speaker 1 Well, now you just have to be a little bit more realistic. You have to, you know, remind yourself that you're not looking for what you were looking for 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 You're not, you're not looking for having a spark with some guy. and good sex and having that be good enough to call him your boyfriend.
What you're looking for is to be seen.

Speaker 1 You're looking for trust you're looking for someone to build an emotional connection with it takes time yeah you know and so you have to remind yourself when you go on a date like this and you have a good time that that while exciting as it might be it it doesn't really one day it's just one day and yeah would you have liked to have gone on date two three or four to see if that one date could have turned into the things that you're looking for of course

Speaker 1 but when it doesn't happen it's really silly for you to act as if you were going to be able to build this connection with this person you know just because you had one good date and that's what you're doing now so would you say i should try and date more

Speaker 1 yes i would date more and actually have less expectations and be mindful of when your ego gets activated and call yourself out and stop asking why strangers aren't validating you the way you want.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And don't waste your energy, you know, trying to figure it out because that's just fun and dramatic with friends.
It just keeps us preoccupied.

Speaker 1 And then when you do date, stop putting the pressure. It's about meeting your person, you know, stop going on one date and being like, I can get off the apps.
Like, can you?

Speaker 6 I mean, like, not get off the apps, but you know, like, not have to like scroll through these like boring things and have to say boring things.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Now, listen, dating is like going to the gym.
It's a means to the end.

Speaker 6 Yeah, maybe I need to try and just see it like that. I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. When you get tired, you take breaks.
You know, when you want to get back into it, you get back into it. Take a step back overall.

Speaker 1 Be mindful of your short-term needs and your long-term needs.

Speaker 1 You know, when you give in to your short-term needs, acknowledge that's what you're doing and don't confuse it with your long-term needs.

Speaker 1 And yeah, and when it and approach dating as meeting people, not testing out men.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Well, I will

Speaker 6 try and get another date.

Speaker 1 I think you said a really important thing that you really need to like hold on to is that, and I hope it's true, and it's not going to take this long, but like you said, if I knew that, you know, even if I waited till I was 50, if I could find my person and have, you know, 20.

Speaker 1 25, 30 good years with that person, that would be good enough for you. And if that's true, then really, really focus on that.

Speaker 1 remind yourself of that every time you go on a first date you know and that will allow you to like be patient but i do think people out there need to be more intentional they need to try to get to know people you know it's like we all say we want to be seen and build this emotional connection but that just takes time and we and we we want it to happen overnight and that's just not possible yeah i'm definitely guilty so you just have to acknowledge the thing that you want takes time and then you have to be willing to put in the time with people knowing that the only way to find out is to fuck around.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's a good reminder.

Speaker 1 You know, that's, but it's, it's never foolproof. And again, along the way, along the way, you are going to have short-term needs and desires.

Speaker 1 From time to time, you will give in to those short-term needs and desires. And when you do, don't beat yourself up.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think I have also this like voice in my head where I like feel like it's really lame of me to like not even have fun with being single or like just putting so much like yeah overthinking into like tiny little things like the fact that I'm still hold up or like thinking about this guy that I saw like for a month or two last year like I don't know I feel like it's so yeah I think I'm like judging myself a lot also you are and this uh this situationship and in this day it's I think fucking you up more than you even realize yeah no but you're right like maybe I need to actually believe that I'm just going to meet my person at some point and you are everything in the middle is just like whatever you You will.

Speaker 1 All you need is patience and the desire to have it happen. Yeah.
It'll happen.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I'm just like, yeah.
I guess like this is a lot of good reminders and like need to practice what I preach, I guess.

Speaker 6 And not, yeah, just think like I'm saying all these big things and then actually inside.

Speaker 1 That is true. Yeah.
Cause yeah, you're saying, oh, I'd be down to wait till I'm 50. And then you're acting like you need to have a boyfriend tomorrow.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I'm super impatient with it. I just don't like this feeling and I'm judging myself.
It's just like an uncomfortable seat I feel for myself.

Speaker 1 Yeah, when you have a feeling you don't like, just acknowledge it. I think we do this thing where we don't want to admit to it.

Speaker 1 Instead of just acknowledging, I'm sad, I'm upset, I'm heartbroken, whatever it is. That's okay that I feel that way.

Speaker 1 You know, first, usually we resist the feeling that we're feeling and then we try to figure out why we're feeling it. That's the part that really gets people stuck.

Speaker 1 It's figuring out why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling and then figuring out how to get over it. All you got to do is acknowledge it.
I'm sad. I feel sad about this.
And that's okay.

Speaker 1 And then once you acknowledge that you're sad, then you have to like stop doing the things that are making you sad. That's it.
You know, what's making me sad?

Speaker 1 Constantly asking myself why this happened with this guy, wondering if I made a mistake, wondering what could have been.

Speaker 1 Accepting what happened is the easiest way to work through the feelings that you're feeling and not get stuck in those feelings.

Speaker 1 We get stuck by constantly trying to understand why we're feeling the way we're feeling. You know, like, you know, you know why you're feeling the way you're feeling.

Speaker 1 It didn't go the way you wanted and it made you sad.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
No, that's fair enough. I definitely need to just accept what I did.
I do play the film again and again sometimes where I'm like,

Speaker 6 should I have done that then?

Speaker 1 You're a human being. You know, you're, you're well on your way.
I think you have a good head on your shoulders. You're going to be just fine.

Speaker 1 I definitely wasn't saying when I was 29, if I meet my person when I was 50, I would be okay. I was definitely, I did not have that level level of maturity that you're demonstrating now.
So

Speaker 1 I think you're going to be okay.

Speaker 1 So just, it's just, it takes work, you know, you're literally developing a set of tools in life to help you be more emotionally regulated, to be more emotionally mature, you know, to not be so easily triggered.

Speaker 1 And when we do get triggered, to not let it absolutely snowball your world around you. And you just keep working on those skills.

Speaker 1 And like I said, it doesn't change the fact that you will continue to be triggered and feel for the rest of your life. Can't wait.
I'm kidding. It's all right.

Speaker 1 It's better than not feeling.

Speaker 6 No, no, for sure. I think I need to

Speaker 6 take a step back from making everything so serious and maybe just go on the date, whatever, if they don't look like they look on the picture or they kind of stink or I don't know.

Speaker 1 Well, that's because I will, I'll leave you with this. Yeah, and I'll leave you with that last part because the not feeling thing is

Speaker 1 that actually happens. Because I reached that point.
I reached that point where I was like, I don't feel anything anymore ever.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, that's not fun.

Speaker 1 You know, it's just like, I don't know, what is the the difference i know i couldn't even tell i was like i went on a date here i was like well i don't know like i just wanted to feel something for someone you don't want to get to that point um that that that that's real cynicism it's like eight years of being single and being picky and not wanting to commit to anyone um

Speaker 1 so you're in good shape it's not eight yeah yeah you're gonna be fine just take a breath take a step back Give yourself some grace. Like, honestly, tell yourself you're doing great.

Speaker 1 Tell yourself you will find people. Tell yourself like you're in a good spot.
You know, like there's a lot of people who wish they were in your shoes right now.

Speaker 1 You really have to, you, you do have to verbalize that to yourself, whether out loud, actually, or just like in your head.

Speaker 6 You know, yeah, affirmations.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it matters.

Speaker 1 It really does.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, for sure. That was really helpful, actually.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, take care.
Have a good one. You too.
Keep us posted. I'd love to know how things are going for you.

Speaker 6 You know, if anything happens in my life, that's worth noting of.

Speaker 1 All right. Sounds good.
Take care.

Speaker 1 Bye-bye. Bye.

Speaker 1 Was there a moment when you realized that you could control your thoughts?

Speaker 1 I often tell this story about like I was in my early 20s and struggling with a breakup and it was like month four of me feeling sorry for myself.

Speaker 1 And then my dad was like, dude, you need to get over it. And I said this to him and I was, I was serious.
I believed what I said. And I said, I have a better chance of levitating.

Speaker 1 than getting over this. And what's scary about it is like, I believed that was true in that moment.
And I believed I couldn't get over it.

Speaker 1 And I was a victim of my feelings and like just telling myself, how I feel is how I feel.

Speaker 3 How long were you into the breakup?

Speaker 1 For me, four months. I mean, I was 22, 23 at the time.

Speaker 3 Okay, so social media wasn't a thing yet.

Speaker 1 Not what it is today. Okay.

Speaker 3 Well, because there's a couple of things to say about this. First of all, you can't control most of what you think.
It's actually not true. You can't control.

Speaker 3 The average person has 70,000 random thoughts a day. Sure.
Most of which you can't control. What you can control are the thoughts that you choose to think in response to something.

Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So the reason why this is important is because one of the big applications of the let them theory is that there's four ways that you've allowed other people to have power in your life.

Speaker 3 And it's wasting your time and energy. And the first is you allow people to piss you off and stress you out and annoy you and worry you and hurt you and frustrate you.

Speaker 3 And you don't have to live like that.

Speaker 3 When you learn to just say let them, whether it is friends that go out without you this weekend and you see it online and you're hurt, feeling a little rejected, let them.

Speaker 3 Adults are allowed to do whatever they want to do. Adults are allowed to be friends with other people.
Adults are allowed to go out and not include you.

Speaker 3 When you're an adult, expecting friendship destroys it, you got to be way more flexible. And so you say, let them in order to detach because otherwise it's going to stress you out.

Speaker 3 And then you're going to get up in your head and you're going to have this whole scenario about what they were talking about. And then you're going to aim it back at yourself.

Speaker 3 And then you're going to be passive and weird the next time you see them. And that's not going to make your friendship stronger.
And so you're going to say, let them.

Speaker 3 And it works because it's not the same thing as letting something go. See, I've never been able to let anything go because I'm very competitive and I like to be right.

Speaker 3 And when somebody says, Mel, you got to just let it go like your dad did. You're like, but I don't want to because that means defeat.

Speaker 1 Sure. Right.

Speaker 3 It means like I'm losing. Let them is different.

Speaker 3 When you see your friends going out and it hurts, which it should because that's a normal reaction, that means you're actually mentally well if you have that reaction.

Speaker 1 It doesn't mean anything's wrong.

Speaker 3 What's wrong is how we process it and then become mad at other people. And then we then make ourselves wrong.
So when you say let them, something weird happens.

Speaker 3 You not only feel less stressed, but you also get this sense of superiority.

Speaker 1 You're kind of acknowledging the feeling and then figuring out a more productive way of dealing with that feeling.

Speaker 3 Yes. And why this also works, Nick, is because it has deep application and roots in Stoicism, Buddhism, detachment theory.

Speaker 3 So in two simple words, you are applying ancient wisdom, philosophy, and therapeutic modalities in a moment in modern life. And that's why it works.
And then you have to say the second part, let me.

Speaker 3 Let me remind myself that what's in my control right now is not being passive and texting me, well, that was nice or whatever.

Speaker 3 What's in your control is what you think next, what you do or don't do, and what you do with your emotions.

Speaker 3 And if it's bothering you, then ask yourself, and this is what happened for me, is the more I started saying, let me, let me remind myself that my social life is not my friend's responsibility.

Speaker 3 It's mine. And let me remind myself before I get passive that these are people that I actually like.

Speaker 3 And let me remind myself, wow, Mel, when's the last time you actually called any one of them and were interested in their life? When's the last time you invited anybody out?

Speaker 3 You start to see that it's easy to blame other people and avoid taking responsibility for creating what you want in your life.

Speaker 1 So you say the let me part where it's like for me, as I've gotten older, what's allowed me to have a lot more peace and happiness in my life. Yep.

Speaker 1 Like, for example, all these situations you mentioned, friends go out without you, don't invite you or something.

Speaker 1 And you have that initial feeling of hurt or anger. I'm able to at least put myself in their shoes.
Right. What am I doing? Like, have I never wanted to hang out with someone?

Speaker 1 Have I ever wanted maybe just to call, you know, and that for me just allows me to be like, okay, I probably, immediately I'm a lot less triggered. Yes.

Speaker 1 Because I just took two seconds to just empathize or just put myself in their shoes. I'm like, okay, then I'll live.

Speaker 3 Yes. I'll calm down.
Well, you also kind of assume good intent, but that's like higher level processing.

Speaker 3 In the moment, for most of us, most of us are basically eight-year-olds emotionally and we're trapped in big bodies.

Speaker 3 And so let them helps you access a level of detachment, which then helps you access the ability to choose how you're going to respond.

Speaker 3 And if you look at the word responsibility, so you're ultimately taking responsibility for your life, right? Responsibility is just the ability to respond. That's what it means.

Speaker 3 And when you start saying let them and you stop giving power to other people, whether it's somebody you're dating or it's your mother's mood or it's your boss passing you over, you say let them and you recognize what's happening.

Speaker 3 This is who this person is and you're not going to change them.

Speaker 3 Then you say let me and you remind yourself, wow, I have power here because I get to choose how much time and energy I spend with somebody.

Speaker 3 I get to choose what conversations I'm in, what text chains I'm on, who I'm spending time with, who I'm not, what dinner tables I sit at, how long I sit in a date or or an interview.

Speaker 3 I'm always in control, but I've been giving it away, which is why I don't see it.

Speaker 3 I've been looking to make somebody like me instead of literally coming back and being like, is this behavior a turnoff? Is this acceptable to me?

Speaker 3 There are three applications of the let them theory that I want to talk about with you.

Speaker 3 Because based on what you've shared with me, Nick, about the person that's spending time together with us right now and what they're probably going through or what their sister or their friends might be going through.

Speaker 3 These to me are the three biggest and most powerful applications. We're going to talk about love and dating and how to take a relationship to the next level in a powerful way.

Speaker 3 And I also want to talk about breakups because there's a lot of science that you should know and research about breakups and how you can use the let them theory to move through a breakup in a very powerful way.

Speaker 3 I also want to talk about chronic comparison and I want to talk about how you use the let them theory

Speaker 3 to stop navigating your life around other people's moods and emotional immaturity, whether that's disappointment or guilt or passive aggressive behavior or the silent treatment.

Speaker 3 These are all extraordinarily powerful ways that you can take your power back in these areas of your life.

Speaker 3 So the first thing I want you to consider is there's obviously a tremendous amount of conversation out there about how toxic it is. Everybody feels that way.

Speaker 3 There's nobody that's like, yeah, I'm so excited to be dating. Everybody's complaining about it and everybody feels this way.

Speaker 1 Which I wish people would take a different approach.

Speaker 3 I do too, because here's the thing: it's a means to an end.

Speaker 1 Stop trying to enjoy dating so much. It's just like, but find the joy of it.

Speaker 3 Well, not only that, stop bitching about online. And actually, when's the last time you talked to somebody who's standing behind you at the coffee shop? Sure.
Yeah. Do you have an open approach?

Speaker 3 Are you open to actually meeting somebody somewhere else?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I just, I always find it funny when people talk about dating as if it's like that someone else out there, some mythical person they want to be is having a ball.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, no, no one is because it's a means to an end. It's, it's like it's going to the gym, you know, like there are people who like to go to the gym, sure, but you're working out.

Speaker 1 You're breaking down your muscles. You're rebuilding them back up.
You're engaging with people. So like you're getting something out of it.

Speaker 1 But like stop pretending that half the world out there is having a ball and you can't figure out why everyone else is having fun but you.

Speaker 3 True. And there's a lot.

Speaker 3 And the five-second rule is going to help because I think you just have to have an open attitude about where you meet people and being open to meeting people and talking to more people.

Speaker 1 More meeting people. Yes.
Less meeting, more meeting people, less dating. More meeting people, less like getting people to like you.
Yes. You know?

Speaker 3 Yes. Okay.
So you're in the beginning stages. Hopefully you're having fun.
Hopefully the sex is great.

Speaker 3 But then you're going to get to a moment where you're like, wow, I actually would like to spend more time and put more energy into this relationship with this person.

Speaker 3 And so this is the moment where you're interested in a commitment. And the commitment could be anything.
It could be being exclusive. It could be putting a label on it.
It could be moving in together.

Speaker 3 It could be getting engaged. Spending more time.
Spending more time together. Whatever a commitment means to you.

Speaker 3 This is where everybody makes a major mistake and everybody gives the power to the other person because you are afraid to ask.

Speaker 3 for what you want and deserve.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I always tell people, stop asking where we're at and just tell them what you want.

Speaker 3 Well, there's a specific way I want you to tell them because ultimately the let them theory is about protecting your time and energy, which I know that you love because your entire experience of life is determined by where you pour your time and your energy.

Speaker 3 And if you are with somebody that you're pouring time and energy to and you're not sure where this is going, you are now the problem because you are not respecting your own time and energy.

Speaker 3 So all you're going to do is you're going to have a conversation with the person when you get to this point and you're just going to say, hey, I love spending time with you. I think you're amazing.

Speaker 3 This has been incredible. And I just know myself and I really respect my time.
And I have gotten to a point where I only want to spend more time and pour more energy into this if we're going to do X.

Speaker 3 And if you don't feel that way, that's totally cool. It's been amazing, but I just don't want to spend any more time or pour more energy into this.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Perfect.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And here's what's perfect about it.

Speaker 1 Well, also the one thing you do have to do after that is you have to let exactly.

Speaker 1 Whatever they do, you can't you can't say you can't renegotiate after you set a boundary which i think that's the one big mistake people always do they'll everyone talks about boundaries everyone likes throwing the word out you know and it's just but it's just like but once you said it you actually have to mean it you got to let them not respect your boundary you can't be like oh but i'm just kidding actually we'll keep that's fine you don't have to label

Speaker 3 whatever yeah exactly because that happens all the time no kidding but then that's not on them that's on you yeah that's on you 100 and so you don't get to bitch about somebody else.

Speaker 3 If you've asked for what you've wanted, they've said no. And now you agree to it.

Speaker 1 And so the let them is just allowing yourself to accept that better.

Speaker 3 And that's the hardest part. Sure.

Speaker 3 Because if you tell them what you want to pour time and energy into and they don't choose you, you have to let them.

Speaker 3 Because if you don't, you are now entering the most dangerous stage of a relationship, which is where it moves from reality to fantasy.

Speaker 3 The person has already told you that they don't want to be with you in that way. And so you are now placing all of the power in the other person because they don't actually want what you want.

Speaker 3 And so when you wake up a year from now and you realize you are now just another girlfriend on the way to their fiancé, or you are just another convenience as they're shopping around for everybody else, that's not on the other person because they told you where you stand and you chose to be there.

Speaker 3 And it is not easy to say let them,

Speaker 3 but you have to if you actually want to meet the person that is going to make you truly happy. And that is a critical way to handle this.

Speaker 3 And, you know, when you get into then a relationship and you're in a commitment, there's going to become that question because there's a ton of this now where people are like, well, is this the right person?

Speaker 3 Is there somebody better out there? And a couple things to put into perspective.

Speaker 3 First of all, when you look at the research of couples that have gone the distance, 11% of people that have long-term committed partnerships that are successful had the spark in the beginning.

Speaker 3 89% of people are what they call a slow burn. It builds over time.
And so if you're questioning because that thing wasn't there in the beginning, you're looking at the wrong stuff. That's number one.

Speaker 3 Number two, you have to look at the person as they are.

Speaker 3 If you're questioning the person and you keep going, but well, if they got healthier, well, if they did this, well, and you are with the potential, then you're not in the reality of the person that you're actually having sex with.

Speaker 3 And you have to operate with the fundamental principles of human beings, which is people only change when they want to.

Speaker 3 And so let's break down the big question, which is you may be attracted, you may actually have a commitment, but when you're questioning if this is the right person, what you're now talking about is compatibility.

Speaker 3 And compatibility means you have shared values. and you have a vision for your life that actually supports both of you.

Speaker 3 And when you start to question whether or not you're compatible, here is how you tell.

Speaker 3 Whether or not the things that you're worried about are the big things that break you up or they're just the little bullshit that you need to learn to accept.

Speaker 3 Most of the things that bother you about the person that you're with probably fall in about 69% of what people bicker about and can't stand about each other.

Speaker 3 And the research comes from the Gottman Institute, the married couple, as I'm sure you know.

Speaker 3 These are just things that are never changing, never changing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like I'm going to leave cabinet doors open for the rest of my life. Of course.
Let them.

Speaker 1 Let them.

Speaker 3 And there's parts of the person that you are choosing to love that you've got to learn to love them as they are and as they aren't.

Speaker 3 And when you ask yourself, The things that frustrate me, are these things that literally, are they skills that they can build?

Speaker 3 Are they just things that bug the hell out of me, but they don't really matter? And the way that you tell whether or not something is a a deal breaker is, A, can you stop bitching about it?

Speaker 3 Because if you can't stop bitching about it, you're going to hold it over the other person's head and resentment's going to build.

Speaker 3 And B, does it fall into a deeper category? And how you know this is either it makes you have to go against something you deeply value, or it requires you to give up on a dream.

Speaker 3 If you have either one of those two things.

Speaker 3 that you deeply value family and you've always wanted to have kids and the person with your, your, you know, are like, well, I don't really know.

Speaker 1 And family's time is, yeah, man.

Speaker 3 You can do without them. Yeah.
And you're up here going,

Speaker 3 this can change. This can change.
No.

Speaker 3 You got to let them show you who you are. And this is not easy.

Speaker 1 I would even add to the people who don't think they want to have kids, but maybe someday, no. Like they don't, you should bank on the fact that.

Speaker 3 They won't change. Well, one of the reasons why this is critical is because this is one of the things in life that that actually has a window of time to it.

Speaker 3 And so if you're with somebody who isn't sure and they're not willing to participate in it because you want it, you have to understand

Speaker 3 that you are giving up on a dream of yours and you're the one gaslighting yourself saying this is okay.

Speaker 3 And instead, you need to say let them, let them reveal to you what they actually want and then come back to let me.

Speaker 3 Let me remind myself, I got to take responsibility for my life and my happiness and my dreams and the things that i want let me remind myself that there's 8 billion people in the world and there are a lot of people out there that can make me feel great that would love to have a family and you're only looking for one life partner yes yes

Speaker 3 and so if you can't stop bitching about it and learn to love them as they are and as they aren't and assume they're not changing Because most people don't, because what are we learning?

Speaker 3 People only change when they feel like it and they're not going to change for you. That's the other hard thing.
People don't change for their children. They don't change for their partners.

Speaker 3 They change for themselves. And so you got to look at somebody and say, are the things about them that bug me, are these things that I can learn to live with?

Speaker 3 Knowing that over time they may change, but can I choose it if it doesn't? Because this person provides all the things that are actually important.

Speaker 3 Like I say to my daughters, the thing that's the most important is that the person feels like home base.

Speaker 3 That when you come home from being out in the world and out in your life, that you actually feel like it's coming to like home base and a game of tag.

Speaker 3 And if you can have that feeling of peace and your shoulders drop, and that's your person, then you're with your person. And most of the other bullshit, you're going to figure out.

Speaker 3 Because what I've learned in 28 years of being married, and Chris is my most favorite person on the planet, we have been through hell and back.

Speaker 3 I mean, nearly lost it all, nearly lost each other, like up and down and raising three kids.

Speaker 3 is that you only need two things to make a relationship work, but it's the biggest things, period. You have to have two people who want it to work.
And if you look back on any relationship where

Speaker 3 you either broke it off or they did, you will see that one of you stopped wanting it to work way before the relationship ended.

Speaker 1 You stopped choosing to want to participate, trying,

Speaker 1 give a shit, make an effort.

Speaker 3 And that's the second thing. You got to both be willing.
to work on it. And what I want you to imagine the next time you think about a relationship is imagine a teeter-totter on a playground.

Speaker 3 Because what's going to happen in your relationship the entire time you're together is the teeter-totter is going to go up. It's going to go down.
There are many times you're going to be in balance.

Speaker 3 And the most important thing about making that teeter-totter work is that you're both on it. The second one of you leans back or steps off.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 3 And it's very helpful to see it that way because you can even ask yourself if you're in a relationship. Am I even on the damn teeter-totter right now? Or did I already step off? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Because if you're questioning it, you're probably already gone. And if you're questioning them, they're probably already gone.
And that brings me to breakups.

Speaker 3 So one of the interesting things about this book is my 25-year-old daughter and I wrote it together.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker 3 And as we, and it was, it's great because then it's got the huge range of perspective in every category that we talk about from comparison to stress to worrying about people's feelings.

Speaker 3 And when it comes to other people and what they're thinking, you have to let them think negative thoughts. That's the trick.
Just say, let them think negative thoughts.

Speaker 3 The next time you open up your favorite social media account,

Speaker 3 and this is going to put this like front and center. You know how you open up a social media account and then you pick a photo?

Speaker 1 And then you're like, is that the right photo?

Speaker 3 And then you start swiping through the filters and then you question the photo and then you move to the caption and then you write the caption. Then you delete.
Am I too much? Is it this?

Speaker 3 Should I do all caps? Should I do the emoji?

Speaker 3 Are they going to think that?

Speaker 1 Who?

Speaker 3 Who?

Speaker 3 Before you even post something, you've already already given power to another person.

Speaker 3 And now you're learning that you can never control what they think and you can't guarantee what somebody's going to think, regardless of what you do.

Speaker 3 And by the way, your social media account is your self-expression. You want to be an influencer.
Who gives a fuck what your college friends think?

Speaker 3 You want to sing your songs and start your YouTube channel and post a photo of yourself in a bikini. It's not for your friends.
It's for you.

Speaker 3 But before you even post the thing, you have handed all the power to something you can't even control, which is what people are going to do in response to it.

Speaker 3 And you've robbed yourself of your self-expression. So you want to know why you're insecure? Take a look at your drafts on social media because there's hundreds of them stored there.

Speaker 3 And that's evidence. That's a graveyard of all your hopes and dreams right there.
And you just gave all your power to somebody else. and to something you can't even control.

Speaker 1 It's just ridiculous. You never know who that someone else is.
Correct.

Speaker 3 Let them think a negative thought. It's liberating.
Because if you can't control it, don't you dare waste an ounce of your energy or your precious time on it.

Speaker 3 Take the time back, take the power back and remind yourself. Let me remind myself, this is my social media channel.
I get to say what I want. I get to post what I want.

Speaker 3 And every time I post something that's aligned with the person I want to be, I actually feel more confident.

Speaker 3 And so when we were writing this book, Because you're going to keep using this and you're going to keep noticing, Jesus, I just give all my power to people's moods and their opinions.

Speaker 3 I can't control any of this shit. Why am I everybody's parent? Like, enough.
Let them live their lives. Let adults be adults.
Let me show up in a way that makes me proud.

Speaker 3 Because when you're proud of yourself, you don't even think about other people and what they think.

Speaker 3 You just show up in a way that makes you proud and you're actually better in your relationships because you're not needy.

Speaker 3 And so, on the topic of breakups, we were writing this book and we got to the section on breakups.

Speaker 3 And we're doing like all this research around the let them theory and researching how people have been using it around the the world. And

Speaker 3 her boyfriend of two years breaks up with her. And she's like,

Speaker 1 rip up this shit.

Speaker 3 The let them theory sucks. I don't want because when

Speaker 3 someone leaves and breaks your heart, you don't want to let them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, you feel abandoned. Of course.

Speaker 3 And the let them theory

Speaker 3 doesn't make it easy. It actually makes you move through it.
And the longer that you hold on to something that's gone,

Speaker 3 the longer you trap yourself in a life that has ended.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, I learned through my toughest breakups is, you know, there's that initial abandonment, the pain, the heartbreak.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if there's like, I mean, you've probably, you've done a lot of research on terms of how long in terms of those feelings, but I had found that just I had held on to the pain.

Speaker 1 So much longer than I needed to.

Speaker 1 In fact, that I, I always talk about how like in a lot of cases, I think people hold on to the pain because it's kind of the only thing they have left of the relationship, you know, the only memory they have, the pictures,

Speaker 1 all the memories you used to have, because that's that last step of getting over someone. Because when you really let go of that, then you're really done.

Speaker 1 And we don't want to let go of that because we don't want to be done. So we stay in the pain and ruminate in there.

Speaker 1 And I had to learn the hard way of getting through that because it was just hanging on to that pain because I just didn't want to let go. Right.

Speaker 3 Plus, the world wouldn't let go. Like you had also a magnified version because even if you had tried, the world kept trying to remind you.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 3 Well, and that's its own.

Speaker 1 Well, that was me being like, I only see forward focus.

Speaker 1 She drove a forward focus and I would only, you know, it's like, but then I realized

Speaker 1 looking for it. Well, that's you magnifying your brain.
Exactly. I was telling myself over and over that I couldn't help it, you know.
But

Speaker 3 the let them theory does work for breakups. And the most important thing is you have to let them leave.
And you're going to be saying, let them, let them, let them, let them.

Speaker 3 And I have very specific guidance on the protocol to follow in order to move through a breakup because the only way to do it is to go through it. And breaking up is grieving.
That's what it is.

Speaker 3 Because a version of your life has just died and you didn't want it to. And you're right.
That's why we hold on. And so the first thing that you're going to have to do that you're not going to do.

Speaker 3 And if you haven't gotten over somebody yet, you're still holding on six months later, a year later, five years later, you have not done what I'm about to tell you you need to do.

Speaker 3 You have to go through a 30-day detox. And that means you got to remove their photos from the family digital frame.
You have to remove their stuff from your bedroom.

Speaker 3 You have to not listen to any voice memos, or you cannot follow them online or look at their location.

Speaker 1 A purge. A false purge.
Well, here's why.

Speaker 3 Because you're not just learning how to move on.

Speaker 1 You're recalibrating your life.

Speaker 3 You have to break the patterns in your nervous system and in your brain. See, you have been encoded in living your life with them.

Speaker 3 And the process of breaking up is actually breaking apart all the patterns that got encoded in your nervous system and your body, just like grieving.

Speaker 3 This is why when you wake up in your bed, you can feel them there. That's your nervous system.
Remembering something.

Speaker 3 It's just like when you stop vaping or you stop drinking, you have to go through a withdrawal because your body remembers. That doesn't mean they're meant for you.

Speaker 3 That doesn't mean you should call them. And that doesn't mean they're thinking about you.
It's your body breaking apart life the way that you knew it.

Speaker 3 And every time you look at a video or you check a location, and worse, do not watch videos, do not listen to voice memos because it is really activating your nervous system.

Speaker 3 And this comes from a recommendation from my therapist, Ann Davin, who's the smartest person I've ever met.

Speaker 3 When she started to explain heartbreak in terms of neuroscience and your nervous system, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 And if you can for 30 days be in a depressive state and not look and keep saying let them, and when you go to reach refront 54321, push it away.

Speaker 3 If you can do that, you accelerate your ability to start moving forward. But if you're still holding on to something, you have never actually gone through that 30-day purge.

Speaker 3 And so every time you look at the person's stuff and you watch their life playing out from far away, you are actually reactivating patterns in your body and keeping somebody that has left you and who is dead alive.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that's what you have to do.

Speaker 1 Also, the, you got to close the loopholes too. My loophole was always finding like the

Speaker 1 acquaintance who wanted to talk about my misery with me. And then when I'd wear them out, I'd find another acquaintance and I would just find people who could

Speaker 1 be willing to to commiserate with me, even though I wasn't looking at pictures or reading letters and things like that.

Speaker 1 So you also got to close those loopholes.

Speaker 3 Excellent point.

Speaker 3 The second thing to know that's helpful, at least it's helpful for me, because I always think I'm the only one going through something when I'm in it, is that the majority of people start to feel better at about the 11-week mark.

Speaker 3 And the reason why is you've had enough distance from it. As long as you're not commiserating and marinating in it like Nick does and listening to voice memos, that you're starting to move forward.

Speaker 3 And so if you knew that that's what it was going to take to truly start to let them leave and let me accept the reality of what's going on and let me stop holding on to something that's over, let me give myself the grace to grieve this and to unlearn these patterns and to resist the urge to reach out and let me start to step forward into the next chapter of my life.

Speaker 3 And then my therapist had the best question ever.

Speaker 1 She basically said, if you knew that the love of your life were about a year away, that you were the love of your life is in the future not in the past in the future what would you do with this time right now you'd go be single you'd have some fun you'd go to school invest in yourself yeah but you get to choose different yeah any time and energy that you pour into the person that already left you is time and energy that you could be pouring into yourself knows what you could be doing correct well you get to choose and that's where your power is yeah mel this has been so much fun i'm sure we could talk about it this for hours it's always fun to talk to like minds and have a similar outlook on love and relationships and most specifically protecting your power, you know, protecting your energy.

Speaker 1 I'm going to dive into this book. Pre-order now, anywhere you get books.

Speaker 3 You can buy it absolutely anywhere in any language, audio book, e-book, absolutely anywhere. And your sister doesn't need another sweater.
She needs tools to make her life better.

Speaker 3 So get her this book.

Speaker 1 There you go. Get her this book.

Speaker 1 Mel, thank you very much. Where can people follow you? Anywhere.
Anywhere. Follow Mel.
Hope you enjoy this episode. We'll see you tomorrow.
Bye.