E984 Ask Nick - My Husband Likes Cam Girls More Than Me

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You're crazy.

How's it going?

Good.

Hi, my name is Ella.

I'm 26.

I'm wondering if my religious values are holding me back from finding the right one.

Okay.

Tell me more.

I'm ultra-orthodox religious, like very, very, very religious.

Like I've never touched a guy in my life, like, not even like held hands, like nothing, nothing, nothing.

And like, because you don't want to, or you feel like the shame of it all, or like no, religiously, like, I'm not, I'm not allowed to.

Okay.

And how do you feel about that as a 26-year-old adult?

Okay.

So two things.

Okay.

So first, I really feel like I'm very, very connected to my religion.

Like, it's not just something I grew up with.

Like, it's something that's part of me.

It's part of my, it's in my bones and i and i really feel for it and at the same time it's it's been really difficult like

because culturally almost everyone is married at this point i'm like the second to last one in my class not married and when you say your class what do you mean like high school like i went to an all-girls high school okay how connected are you to your community because like for example i grew up very religious you may or may not know having 10 siblings is usually a signal of that right we went to like a catholic church it was i wouldn't call it like orthodox you know certainly i held hands in high school type of thing you know there was a lot of like no sex before marriage from my parents like conversations there was certainly a lot of of that kind of shame and whatever but certainly i guess we were not orthodox enough for me and my my siblings to you know whatever we just you know do our thing in high school and you know as catholics catholics are notorious for you know breaking the rules right?

You know, so to speak, and then going to confession or whatever.

But I certainly am familiar with, you know, very devout religious parents and that kind of upbringing.

You mentioned, you know, you say the word orthodox.

Obviously, that kind of seems like a signal even more serious and more intense.

Yeah, like I never talked to like a guy like throughout high school.

Like it wasn't like.

So like I just out of curiosity, I mean, well, a couple of things.

You know, one, it's just like usually in my experience, like the the more orthodox families and communities kind of just stay within their orthodox family or communities.

Like

everyone was just more religious, let's say in the, you know, I don't know, back in the day, right?

And you would just go to your church and then you would marry someone from your church.

And it was easier to be devout

because like, yeah, we believe in the same thing.

You know, a lot of times it's just like, that's why a lot of people in these very devout religious communities like stick with their own, so to speak, because it is, it's, it's just, you know, it is hard to find people,

especially as modern society becomes more and more, I guess, agnostic, to find people who subscribe to, you know, very rigid beliefs.

But it doesn't sound like that's the case for you.

It's like you're trying to hold on to these core values and then date people outside of your religion.

No, no, no.

It's what, do you, do you know how it works, like the Orthodox, Jewish Orthodox?

Oh, so you're Jewish Orthodox.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Oh, don't worry.

Yeah, yeah, no.

I mean, it's all really set up through a matchmaker.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, everything, like, you can't, like, meet the guy yourself type of thing.

Like, it is all set up through a matchmaker.

And you do a lot of research and everything before you even meet the guy.

Like, your parents call his character references and everything.

It's very intense.

You even do genetic genetic testing before you even meet the guy.

And then

he comes to your house and he like meets your parents for like three minutes.

And then he takes you off to hotel lobby and you spend three hours talking.

And if you like him, then you go out again.

And from there, it just goes really fast.

And usually like eight dates later, you're probably engaged.

Okay.

So is that what like what you're in line for?

Yeah.

Well, that's what I've been doing.

Yeah.

How long have you been doing this?

Seven Seven years.

And you just haven't like, are your parents are like exhausted trying to find you someone you like?

Yeah, they're going nuts.

Like, and it's working.

Like, I've dated like tons of guys.

So you're just like, nah, I'm good.

No, so yeah, that's what's happening is like.

Are you turning them all down?

Or do you get rejected ever?

No, like, like once in a while, there is someone that rejects me.

Okay.

Yeah, no, so it's, it's, it's been brutal.

Like, it's been like, like i'll be in like a hotel lobby and it will be so brutal for me to make conversation with the guy because i just feel like i i don't know like it's just very very hard for me and then but there was one guy that i did like recently and that's that's where the whole question came about and and um was he jewish orthodox yes he was he was so i actually he i met him you know do you know what a shabbis table is shabbous sabbath i'm familiar with the word i don't know i don't know but I.

Yeah.

I've seen the show Orthodox on Netflix.

Great show.

It is.

Yeah.

So

every week there's like a like the Sabbath, whatever.

It's like a very much, like a very family time.

And

I was at like this person's house and I saw this guy there.

And I don't know, like, I just went over to him.

I just started talking to him.

And

which is like not really done so much, you know, like you don't really just like go over, but he was so nice and he was so so sweet and we and we went through a matchmaker after that and i i really really liked him

but um i felt like the more we talked and the more i got to know him he wasn't he wasn't as religious as me like he wasn't um

what does that mean like what explain that to me because he still went through a matchmaker yeah in like touch or anything like that but like like but he was very much part of the the Jewish Orthodox church and familiar with your arrangement and how you do things.

And it's like he was certainly comfortable with that, right?

And understood that, right?

Right.

So what do you mean by he wasn't as religious as you?

Well,

I mean, it was like an overall, it was an overall feel.

Like, like, we're not really like allowed to like listen to like secular music or things like that.

And like, like he definitely would do that.

And he would always like be like testing me, like putting it on in the car.

And, like,

what's considered secular?

Like, I'm honestly shocked that you listen to my podcast.

Like, are you allowed to read?

Totally, totally.

I told my parents that I was coming on, they were like, oh my gosh, that's super cool.

Go for it.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, yeah.

But what is secular mean?

Because, like, okay, like, mainstream, just totally mainstream music, like, regular music.

Like, um, yeah.

Okay.

And what about, like, what's considered a secular show?

Like,

it's just all shows, actually.

Okay, so then

okay.

Okay, maybe that was the wrong word, secular.

Maybe I meant.

Well, no, I'm very fascinated.

This is very fascinating.

I'm just trying to understand like where,

you know, like you're calling it and saying like, okay, he, I found he wasn't as religious to me.

I asked, what did that mean?

You mentioned like he kind of dabbled in secular music.

Yeah.

You're not supposed to listen to it.

Sounds like you mostly don't.

Is music different than like all jokes aside, like, you know, a podcast, a main, you you know, that talks about sex and dating and talks about music and talks about TV shows and all of these things, I'm assuming, are outside the purview of what you're supposed to, you know, so where do you draw the line?

Right.

Yeah, that's a really good question, actually,

about drawing the line.

It's, it's not even, I think, that actually like the secular music.

I think it's more is that he, he identified as someone who,

that he, he wants to like like a little bit

not not be as rich in those roles.

And there were other examples, like he wanted me, he was going to Israel for a week and he invited me to come along.

And I know, right?

I know.

I was like,

that's like kind of scandalous.

He's like, no, don't worry.

We'll sleep in

separate hotels.

I was like, but he knows that that's kind of, that was, that was a bit, that was a bit much.

But it was, it wasn't even just that.

It was his whole dress.

Like he,

he, he would dress like not, not like the way like religious guys dress.

And everything, everything he did was just.

Well, what did you think about that?

Did you find that exciting or did you find that to be a turnoff?

It was both.

It was both.

Yeah.

Okay.

And talk to me about the turnoff part.

Well, like I'm very, very connected to the religion and to the community.

And so like when I was like, let's say like seen with him, it would, like people would always like raise eyebrows.

And so the turnoff is more about your fear about how you two or how you two as a couple and then subsequently you would be accepted in your community with this guy?

Definitely that part, but I think it was more was, I felt like the more like I would talk about religion and like my goals and

just everything.

And he would be like, yeah, this is like, he's like, I want like a very religious girl, but I'm not, I'm not as connected to it as you are.

What do you want for yourself?

What do I want for myself?

Yeah, I mean, my understanding of most devout Orthodox, or I mean, again, I come from a religious background, which is,

um, and listen, as a new dad, as a new husband, like I am in my dad family era, and I think it's the greatest thing,

you know, if that's something you want as a person, not to push anyone's on, but like having a family, having kids, having a partner, the most rewarding and greatest thing anyone can do.

I am down for that.

That being said, it seems like, you know, the, you know, and more conservative, devout, orthodox families, very,

very traditional.

Like, it, like, the woman's role is be a mom,

be a wife, raise a family, you know, be the caregiver, and you're very limited to those roles.

Is that accurate in terms of like what is expected of you and I guess what you want?

Because when it comes to very devout religion, right, I think a lot of people, what people struggle with, whether it's as devout as yours and as rigid as yours, or maybe say an upbringing like mine, which is still pretty, by considered by most people, very a religious family, not certainly as orthodox as yours, but there's a lot of like, what I was raised to want and for myself and what I was raised to believe and what I was taught to believe and what, you know, all these values that were instilled in me that are, you know, are important to me, but they're also important to me because they're part of my family.

And then there's the, as we get older, like what we, what we realize we want, you know, and that struggle between am I doing it for me?

Am I doing it out of shame or guilt?

Am I doing it because I believe in a higher purpose?

All these

things that people struggle with, right?

You know, also like parents have a way of using religion.

You know, all parents are are afraid to like let their kids kind of go as they get into adulthood.

And I think people who come from religious families, like parents will use whatever levers they have and they can use religion to like make sure that their kids like stay kind of under their

like influence.

Yeah, influence.

I don't know.

It's like, yeah, it's just which which as a new parent, I empathize with like this idea of, you know, it won't always be like this, you know, type of thing.

And so, you know, for you, I'm just trying to figure out what what's the part that you're struggling with?

Because Because I know you keep saying, you know,

my religion is really important to me, but like, which part?

Like, what, what do you, what is a perfect forgetting about

what anyone wants of you, your parents, God himself, or your friends.

But if God said, what I want is for you to decide, what would you decide for yourself?

In life?

Yeah.

I mean, like, what, just paint me a picture of your, of, of your, of your life,

regardless of what any you know god says hey yeah whatever i just know that what i want for you and you can do no wrong is for you to decide what your life looks like and for me that will make me the happiest what what would that be i i would

i think i would want nothing more than to than to get married and have kids okay and then but okay But what does that look like?

You know, what does it look like?

Yeah.

You know, you could have, you know, there are families who have kids who both parents work, right?

There, you know, their family has kids where the mom works and the dad's a stay-at-home mom.

There are, you know, there's so many different family dynamics.

You know, what is, what does like a day in the life look like?

You know, are,

you know, how are you raising your kids, you know?

Yeah.

I mean,

I would want to be wealthy.

I would want.

Okay.

Great.

I would want him to be making like most of the money, but I still would want to contribute and and have my own um and and continue i love my work i i teach i teach first grade and i love it like every moment um so you want to still teach yeah i definitely still want to teach i

um

and and i would want like to like live for that higher purpose like

and

what does that mean

It would be like elevating every single, every small action that I do for God.

Okay.

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

You know, I'm not trying to, I'm just like, I want,

you know, at some point you have to, I think the challenge you have is so much, so many of your answers are just kind of, it kind of reminds me of a story.

And this is, again, very, very interesting to me and very fascinating.

I think, you know, religion is such a fascinating element.

But when I was in, we, we used to call it CCD, Catholicism, like

it was CCD.

It was like the after school for Catholic kids.

And we'd go and we'd learn about, I I guess, the Bible.

Did you connect to it or no?

Oh, no.

I hated it.

Whatever.

Well, also,

how come?

I mean, like, listen, I came from a family where like a lot of, like, we said the rosary as a family, like, we prayed together as a family.

Like, to me, like, my, what my parents did in terms of instilling like God and religion into our childhoods was more than anything like that an after-school church program was.

It was kind of, I thought, silly.

Right.

Right.

So, but there was this kid.

I went.

His name was TJ.

And we would have like little home, we'd have homework.

Right.

And we'd have questions.

And TJ, I'd look over.

TJ would, he would just write the answer.

Every answer was this God, God, God, God, God, God.

He wouldn't read the question.

He would just write, God, God, God, God, God, God, God.

Oh, gosh, am I sounding like that?

No, it, yeah, I mean, like a little bit in a sense that like, it's more like you, you're not, when I'm asking you some of these questions, you're, you're just like, you're not entirely sure how to answer it.

And you only answer it by saying, like, listen, I just want to make God happy.

You know, I just want to, I want to serve God.

I'm not sure I know what that means.

I'm not sure if you know exactly what that means, right?

As in adulthood, it's just a lot easier when we're kids and we grow up and

our parents teach her these things and our rabbis teach us these things about like how to listen to God, how to follow God, like follow the rules, right?

Like, and you're just like, okay, cool.

If I'm going to do this because I want to be a good kid.

And then, you know, this guy that you met, right, that you had an interest in, who's like, he's just more like, yeah, I mean, I like, I like religion and I like my family and I like God, but like, I don't know, like, I'm just going to like bet on the fact that like, if I listen to this song, I'm not going to burn in hell and I like this song.

And so, like, whatever, like, I'm just going to do this and I'm not going to live with the shame and guilt of whatever has been like instilled in me.

And I'm going to.

I'm going to fly to Israel and I'm going to visit it.

I'm going to ask this girl I like if she wants to come.

And if she doesn't want to come, that's fine.

But if she does want to come, like, well, you know, I'm not going to, I don't want to pressure her or force her to do anything she doesn't want to do.

But like, we're just going to be two adults going on a trip.

And like, I don't see the harm in that.

And like, whatever.

And he is, he is thinking for himself, right?

And he is, he is walking his own path and he is deciding, it sounds like, that

he is taking what he has learned as a child, you know, what are values that are instilled in him.

And he is starting to make decisions for himself and, and making his own set of rules.

And, you know, the day he meets his maker, he's betting on the fact that like he's going to get it right, so to speak, right?

I don't know.

Like, I guess that's kind of what I'm doing.

Like, you know, my views on religion and God, like, you know, not to get into that, obviously have changed, but like overall, I like to think and I believe in a higher power.

And I certainly, as I've said, you know, to other people, like, I live my life with the,

like, I don't know what I believe in these days, but I live my life that like I am, I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices if it comes to that, you know?

And so

that's how I live my life, you know.

I don't know what, when, when the day comes where whoever shows up at the curly gates or whatever, or whatever God looks like to, you know, but I'm assuming I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices.

And that's kind of how I'm living my life.

As I get older and the more and more I get older and the more I have like my own thing, like right now, my focus in life is raising my family and doing what I think is right.

And I have my moral compass.

I am not checking in with my priest or my parents and asking them, what do you think I should do?

What's the, what, how does, you know, I am not really asking myself on a day-to-day basis, what would God do here?

I'm just, you know, I'm making decisions based off what I think is the right thing to do.

And like a lot of these are just more like, you know,

you know, River gets older, right?

Now she's starting to not listen to us.

Natalie and I are talking about how do we deal with that, right?

I don't know.

We're just making choices, you know?

And I don't want to say God isn't part of that conversation.

I mean, we're not as either of us are not that religious of people, but like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, the best way to describe it is this guy you're talking about, talking to,

he is making choices for himself.

And you are, you seem to be struggling to do that because your default is always like, what am I supposed to do?

And what is, what is someone who loves God, what would she do?

You know, and what, what is someone who's really

devout to their religion, what would she do?

And I feel like, maybe I'm wrong, that that's how you ask yourself these questions as opposed to, what do I want to do?

Oh, yeah, well, okay, fine.

So there's, there's a couple of, there's a couple of things with, with guy.

So I, first, I reached out to the matchmaker and I was like, oh, I also want to answer with the other thing.

It's for sure, I have a massive superego where I'm like constantly, it's like constantly buzzing in my head of like, what should I do?

Hey, was I right?

Was I wrong?

Was I this?

Was I that?

Which it isn't, it isn't, it's a little bit heavy on

that end.

But, but with the guy, I, I was, I was trying to, to tell the matchmaker, like, can we just talk about religion at all?

Because he, every time we tried to talk about religion, he would like somehow would like, circumvent like I don't know.

It just would never happen.

And she did.

She she talked to him.

He's like, Yeah, I totally admit, I was totally like trying to, I'm worried if we talk about religion, it'll ruin the relationship.

So I was definitely circumventing it.

And

every time she brought it up, I made sure to quickly switch the topic.

Anyway, on the 11th day, which is honestly, which is even kind of late in our community, like to even be going out that much.

But

I...

like we started talking about religion and he said he's like i don't want you to ask me the nitty-gritties of my religious observance.

So he said that to you.

He said that to me.

So I said to him, I'm like, okay, okay, I get it.

And he's like, I just like, if you're okay with me, we could get married.

But like, if not, then,

then not.

So I said to him, I was like, okay, fine.

So I don't need to know exactly where you're holding, but like,

is this at all like a goal for you?

Like, like, do you, is it, are there any goals spiritually you have, anything?

And he's like, no.

So he's not really, he's not really all religious at all.

Well, I mean, I think he, I mean,

he said he's religious.

So

he's not acting religious.

What he's acting like, again, based off of what you're telling me, is that he's certainly

he's playing the part in your community.

He is going through the matchmaker.

I mean, he definitely sounds like a guy who's hooked up with a girl before.

Really?

Do you think so?

I don't, I don't know anything about this guy.

He is a guy,

religious or not.

Do you think so?

I didn't, I was like, someone told me that too, and I just couldn't believe it.

I'm basing this off of very little information.

So I would not go off of, you know.

Oh my God.

This is just a guess.

It's a very simplified guess based off the fact that he's a guy.

And

there have been popes back in the day who have

stepped out of line, so to speak.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, humans are humans.

He's clearly not that religious, right?

And as someone who knows what it's like to grow up very religious and to have like slowly grown away from it, like temptation like gets the best of us.

And he is stretching his limits of like, of, you know, of what he's willing to do outside of what he's been raised and told not to do.

And usually in those cases, you know, sex of some kind or emotional, a physical intimacy is a very appealing thing for a young man to want to look into or try.

And it's certainly exciting and it feels taboo and anything, you know, I don't care if you're religious or not, you know, if it's taboo, it's a little titillating and a little exciting.

And he has clearly shown a willingness and an interest to like, you know, test those limits.

And I don't know.

Like, it just makes a lot of sense that.

He didn't try to like touch me or anything.

Well, he, because you're very religious.

He's no, he knows that, you know, I listen, this is based off nothing.

So I wouldn't accuse this guy of

anything.

But my point is, is he's playing the part, right?

He's, you know, but at the end of the day, he's, he's not, it's just not a priority for him, right?

He wants to,

you know, he wants to have a wife.

He wants his family.

He wants his community.

And he wants to marry someone who, like him, like wants to put on severance at home and watch it with his wife and like, not tell anyone.

Oh, okay.

So, yeah.

And, and I know, like, for him, like, he has like this very, you know,

he doesn't see religion the same way because his parents were a lot more strict with him and he found it very constraining.

So, I, and he's, he's, like, he's massively into therapy.

Like, he, he goes twice a week for eight years.

Like,

is that something like, are you being orthodox?

Are they into therapy?

Totally.

Yeah, I'm in there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

they're like by a therapist or like a rabbi

that's a good question no no by by an actual therapist okay yeah all right um

my father's actually a psychologist oh really wow yeah and does he does he work with people outside of

definitely really okay interesting Well, how would your dad answer this question?

I mean, have you talked to him about this stuff?

Oh, yeah.

He didn't like the guy till that point.

He liked him till that point.

Then he's like, this guy, he has like this idea that enjoying life is like the way to live life because he was like,

he was like very into like his cars and his this and his that and just enjoying life.

And he's like, he's not willing to put in the work in anything.

So what I mean, does your dad doesn't think you should enjoy life?

He thinks I should enjoy life.

Yeah.

That's he, he was, he liked the guy till the religious part.

How does your dad balance the, you know, as a psychologist who works with people outside of his religion, how does he see the world between he must recognize that his way of life and his values are

unique and

aren't aren't shared by many people outside of his religion?

And how does he, you know, and so many of your rules, again, are very, very rigid.

How does he reconcile that in terms of

judging like it, you know, like, because again, like talking about secular music, right like i do like i'm guessing you didn't watch love island right now right like so like let's assume you for whatever reason you just one day you watched love island and you were like i don't know i'm just addicted to it and it's just like really good and like whatever i know i'm not supposed to be watching but like ah yolo what would your parents think of that oh oh they wouldn't they would be like

you know sometimes you need to enjoy yourself okay and they would say you know maybe maybe it's a better thing you could do your

They wouldn't judge me.

Okay.

And do you, what,

does your gut tell you that both your parents have their own little thing that they do that maybe they shouldn't be doing that they don't like?

I don't really think that.

I don't know.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, in my experience, when it comes to like the more, like, I just, you know, like, I was raised, like, again, raising, when you're raised Catholic, the core principle of like that, like how I was raised is just more like, you know, your time here on earth is, is, has a purpose.

And that purpose is to get to heaven, right?

And it, and it is about kind of suffering through, you know, it's, yeah, it's a, you know, suffering is a good thing because it like earns your way to heaven in a way.

And so like, you know,

it justifies like hard times or whatever.

I don't know.

Well, I don't know what was like.

I don't think that's the belief.

I don't think so.

Okay.

No, no, I'm definitely not like with my parents, like, they're very much like, you have to really enjoy yourself and

even,

yeah, like, like, they're always like my father's always telling me, my, my mother also, they're always like, you know, get yourself all the clothes you need, get yourself everything you want.

Like, they're very much into that.

But

it just, I just feel like I'm kind of stuck in this like bubble in a way, because here everyone else.

already got married everyone else is like having their kids and this and that and and then i don't know like honestly like i I don't know really what to do with my life, like at this point, because I'm trying to get married.

I so badly want to get to that next stage.

And yeah, I'm like working on myself, like career-wise, emotionally, spiritually, like everything.

And like, I know you also kind of waited a while to, so you got married.

Yeah.

But

I just, I, I don't, like, I, I don't know what to do with myself, like, honestly.

Like, what do you mean by like, do you live with your parents?

Yeah, yeah.

So that's also part of the community thing.

You don't, you live with your parents.

They they get married okay what do you mean by you don't know what to do with your like do you have friends right yeah but basically everyone's married everyone's married yeah i mean

it's just like your your lifestyle and religion is so like unique and it's hard for me to tell you what you think you should think and feel because what you're describing what i'm hearing it's like it has like hints of like a very you know it's like it's not pre-arranged marriages like you very much have a say you know

you you have not been liking these people you go on a date with or you've been matchmake made with, right?

But it's still a very rigid process.

You're not exactly going on the app, so to speak.

You're not opening yourself up to like just anyone.

You're dating within your religion.

Right.

Just out of curiosity, the other men that you were introduced to, what were some of the reasons that you didn't dig them?

I don't know.

Like every guy, something else.

Like it's just been, it's been awful.

Yeah.

Like

like like physically you're not like what like so I'm assuming some you weren't physically attracted to some of them but I'm not I'm not even so like it's so funny because I listen to the podcast and everyone's like oh my gosh you know um I he has to be six feet I'm I'm laughing because like Jewish men are so short I'm like yeah I go out with like five foot three guys five foot four guys like it's totally fine for me and the height but like yeah sometimes it's like yeah i don't know you're describing me your perfect guy with with forgetting about assuming he's religious.

Assuming he's religious, like not about his religion, about how he is as a partner to you, assuming he's meeting all your religious needs.

Yeah.

So someone like very like emotionally in tune and

smart, intelligent, like driven, and not someone, I don't really like like the guys that are super expressive and like telling me all their emotions, but like someone like a little more contained.

So they could kind of balance me a little bit.

Okay.

How old are the men that you're dating?

25 to 34.

Okay.

I honestly think that a lot of this is kind of like my own father's fault because like I really want someone very similar to him.

He's like very,

he's very much in both worlds in a way, you know?

What do you mean?

And he's very like kind of like what you said.

He can be in like the mainstream world and he charges tons for a 45 minute session with him.

He like, like, yeah,

he does, he's very, he's a massive psychoanalyst and he's amazing.

But he's also incredibly religious.

Like he wakes up like super, super early to pray, to learn the Torah and everything.

And I, and I kind of want that balance.

It actually, you know, like, Nick, he really reminds me of my father a little bit.

Like he has that like.

contained presence a little bit, you know?

Yeah, I mean, it's, well, one, it comes a little bit with age and wisdom.

I'd be curious if your dad, if you asked your dad, was he always like this?

What do you would say?

I'm curious.

Or, or just more like, what was your dad like when he was younger, you know, as a young man?

Also, like, I just, I, you know, forgetting about Orthodox religion, I think as a society, we are expecting less and less of our young men.

And I think young men are maturing even slower than they were.

Yeah.

And so I, you know, are you noticing that with also the men in your religion?

Are they also just like a little emotionally immature?

Or yeah.

And do you feel like this guy that you liked, do you think he is

unique in his not as religious, even though he's playing the part of being in the religion?

Or is he the most honest about it?

I thought he was like really unique.

I always think all the guys are super religious.

And when you get to know them,

it shows?

Yeah,

I think so.

I mean, I don't usually get, it usually doesn't go past like a date or two for each guy.

Like this guy like went pretty far.

Okay.

What did you like about this guy?

He's just, he was very warm, very like emotionally in tune.

And he just, he, he, like, every time I would be like nervous about something, he'd be like, no, like.

There's nothing you can ever do that would ever turn me off.

Like, you are so like amazing.

And he, he really had that amazing presence to him.

Yeah.

So other than the fact that he's not religious, he really dug him.

Yeah, I really liked him.

I really, really did.

And basically, we're just like, can we have a religious,

you know, a faith-based relationship?

He was kind of like, not really.

So I, so I said to him, so he's like, yeah, like, are you like, okay with me like that?

I was like, how could I be okay with you?

Like not even having like one goal or anything, like just something.

And he said, fine.

I see, he's like, I guess you're, he's like, I guess you're breaking up with me.

And then I was like, no, I'm not breaking up with you.

Like, I'm not.

When you say one goal, are you talking about like as his in life or like in his religion?

In his religion.

Like, what does he do for work?

Even in life, he wasn't like, he made good money, but like, he wasn't like ambitious about it.

Like, his goal was to kind of enjoy his life.

So I said to him, so I was like, you know, I'm all, I'm like, I'm totally fine with you, like, where you're at, but like.

if you're not going to give me that inch like that's that's kind of your decision like you're the one kind of breaking up with me and he's like yeah and then he and he started crying and everything and he was like like, and then that was it.

And when was that?

That was like three months ago.

You haven't spoken to them since?

No, because you're not allowed.

Like, you can't.

Once you break out, you're not allowed to.

Yeah.

Well, he's like, he's following those rules.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then what's your dating pool look like?

Like.

Well, kind of excited.

I'm going on a date tomorrow with another guy, which I also picked him out.

Do you like, do you live in a big enough city where you have enough options?

Yeah, yeah.

There's like, it's, there's like a lot of options.

Yeah.

It's like, do you know if you're like one of the more, like, I don't, how does, how does your community view you?

What do you mean?

Well, you're, I mean, assuming on some level, your, your community is small relative to like the world.

And like, you know, the society in general has kind of lost touch with any sense of community in general.

Right.

But like, obviously a very positive aspect of religion is like you, you know, like a lot of people get, go back to church because it's like we need we need a community right and and church and and faith and religion provides that even if you're not that religious it's like it's a great place that you know have donuts and juice after after mass you know um

but like in your religion you know religious or not people gossip you know and moms love to talk about their kids and daughters and here you are seeming like a very young eligible young woman only 26 in my mind but i'm a and maybe in

old maid yeah and religious religious purposes, you're just like

over the hill.

But you must, you know, like, but you must be considered like someone who, you know, you're a beautiful person, you know, like, I'm imagining there must be like, what's your, are people not talking about you?

I honestly have no idea.

Okay, that's probably better for the best.

I have no idea.

I have no idea.

Okay.

Like, yeah, but definitely like my brother is like always like, you have to keep a really good name.

And like, like, you can't, you can't do anything too out there.

I was like, okay, yeah don't worry I'm not going what does that mean it's like what's too out there

like like one time I told him that I like talked about therapy with a guy on his age he's like oh why would you ever say that like you're gonna ruin your name like I was like oh okay fine okay I won't say that your dad's a therapist no that was my brother my brother doesn't have a therapist oh right my dad is but um

why would it ruin your name you talking about therapy i don't know honestly because like maybe like you have like mental health issues or something like i don't know Well, that's kind of my point.

In the sense that like

I think religion is and can be a beautiful thing for people, right?

I myself have seen some of the negative side of religion and how people weaponize it and use it for their own ungodly ways.

And then often I think the intent of how people use religion is good, but like, you know, you're, for example, your brother, like, seemed like he had had your best interest in mind.

Here he is, is like, oh my God, don't ruin your name by talking about therapy.

You don't even know what he means by that.

And he seems well-intentioned.

And I think that's kind of sometimes when it comes to really devout religions.

And that's why I think as an adult, it's important to just, at some point, you have to have your moral compass that may very much be dictated.

greatly by your faith and religion and how you were raised, but it's got to, it's got to come from you.

You have to decide for yourself.

Your brother, who get, you know, I guess on some levels, he has his opinion.

I guess don't talk about therapy, but like, and he was passing on his beliefs that were unique to him on to you, right?

And, and I think sometimes if you don't have yours, it just kind of gets very confusing of who you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to follow.

And I think it's just really important to just know what you think as a person who it sounds like you've had great parents and they've raised raised you up and now it's time for you as a 26 year old adult to like make her choices for herself and be accountable for those choices and just in general forgetting about dating something you need i you know i would say focus on because like otherwise you're just always kind of questioning yourself yeah that's that's definitely what i was talking about with my therapist that i have to kind of have my own my own thoughts about these things like like there is also like just this guy tomorrow that i'm going to go out with i think he's he seems really really nice but um he also is a little bit less religious but we'll we'll see what happens there yeah i'm just uh i'm not surprised to hear that because i just think it's like religion in general is under fire by the world right like it's not you know there's that and then i think or more orthodox it's just like temptation is just

everywhere i mean i don't know like do you even have a smartphone smartphone?

So, yeah,

good.

That's actually a really good question.

Just so last year, I switched over to a smartphone.

And, like, how, I mean, but like, a smartphone is basically a gateway to the secular world,

right?

Isn't it right?

That's all it is.

It's just a, it's a device to everything you shouldn't mess with.

Right.

Right.

I'm guessing you can, there's apps for Orthodox Jews too, but I think so.

Not really.

Okay.

Well, then, like,

you know, you you know what I'm saying?

So, it's just like, how do you?

And I'm not here to question anything.

I just like,

I guess, my point is, like, you're, you are,

on some level, and I'm sure your parents are too.

Your parents are definitely making choices for themselves.

That part of you, when, like, if I, if I say, well, what happens if you were to watch La Viola?

And they would tell you, like, oh, you know, I guess, like, enjoy yourself.

Like, that mantra, right?

Like, to me, that's a recognition that, like, even the most devout and God-faring Jewish people, Orthodox, like, you know, have their

things that maybe they technically shouldn't do, but it's not hurting anyone

and they get a little joy out of it.

So like, whatever.

I think that, that response is a recognition that like everyone kind of has their thing.

I find it so hard to believe that everyone has their thing.

I actually think I'm like, like in the school I teach in, I'm considered like one of like the less religious

and is that silly based off of what that you're not married yet no no in terms of like dress

okay

dress and like how they look and just even like yeah the fact like I'm on here also just yeah even a question about about um

like like let's say like you and your wife so um

here was you know you met this a mate like this star of a person

and I'm sure it was hard for you to get over like let's say the age gap So is there like a certain, you know, element of like when you find someone so amazing that you, you kind of like shake it up a little bit?

I mean, you have, you definitely have to make compromises.

I've, Nellie and I have both had to make a lot of compromises.

You know, we're not all that

self-conscious about how we present to the world.

We like to share a lot of things about our life.

We definitely don't share everything about our life.

And like, we certainly don't want to paint this picture of like this perfect couple like we are we think we have a perfect relationship because again we work so hard at it but we've both like

we had to we have we had to make sacrifices and compromises are because at the end of the day we we chose each other you know

we're not very religious right so like you know my parent my parents were introduced by a priest their their marriage was centered around god

um and that was a core principle of their relationship and a big part of my upbringing.

And I had a great childhood, right?

And while mine and Natalie's religion isn't centered around God, it's centered around our family and each other.

And

that is kind of our North star.

And so, yeah, I guess it's like you need a North star.

And for you, it's like you want that religion to be your North Star

in your relationship.

which I think makes a lot of sense.

And you're meeting men who maybe don't want that, I guess.

And most of the men do want that, but then I feel like I like the guys that are a little bit more open in a way.

What is the thing that you like about them?

What are the things that you don't like about the religious menu that you're meeting?

Like, is there a...

Like, I just, I find it just very hard to talk to them.

Like,

they're weird.

Maybe.

Like, I don't know.

Like, it's just, like, I'm like thinking about like some of the conversations like I had.

I'm trying to thread the needle here and explain myself because obviously I want to be very respectful to your religion.

I just, and you,

again, I'm curious what your dad would say about this, because he must recognize that

it's got to be harder and harder and harder today to be a devout Orthodox Jewish person, man or woman.

It's just, it is, you know, like, I mean, 50 years ago, there were just a lot more religious people.

So, whether they shared your religion, they understood the concept of like putting God first in their life and

having more discipline in their life

when it came to like having that balance.

And

discipline is not a core principle.

I think a lot of young people are learning these days.

I mean, you're dating early 30-year-old men, so it's not that they're that young, they're not like Gen Z.

But I just think it's

very easy to get access to the outside world for anyone, including Orthodox people.

And I think the people who have been able to do that,

again, whether this is fair or not, my assumption would be that they're so closed off to the outside world, which is why they're so religious.

But that closed off and that disconnect is like they're just, they're not operating like, I don't know,

I don't want to say normal, but like there's just there's a little something like not connecting the dots where it's just like the only reason they're so religious is because they don't know anything better or they don't know anything else.

And so their devotion comes from knowing nothing else.

Your dad is like the literal opposite, right?

Like you mentioned that balance, right?

He is in the outside world.

He faces that temptation and he chooses not to, for the most part, I'm assuming, but I guess he has his thing.

You know, you know what I'm saying?

He has his balance, whatever that is, and he can go through life as a man who like

can just be a normal person, you know, and

does that make any sense?

I, you know, I don't.

No, no, it makes, it makes a lot of sense.

And you're meeting men that like, you know, have seen a little bit of the outside world and unlike, I guess, your dad, have.

have been like, yeah, I'm kind of,

I'm digging this kind of thing.

yeah, that's it.

I would really be curious.

How much have you talked to your parents about how they were in their 20s outside of like God?

Yeah, yeah.

No, I did talk to them.

They also had a hard time

finding, finding each other.

Okay.

Yeah.

It wouldn't shock me if your dad, was your dad, did your dad ever have a period in his life where he was a little less religious?

Yeah, but like he wouldn't, he didn't like like touch anyone.

Like, but like.

Well, yeah, I don't mean about whatever.

maybe it was music like yeah like he he said like at a you know in his 20s he kind of felt a little bit he it was hard for him to be in the same level of religion and and you know like you know they pray three times a day the men and like all that so he said it was very hard for him yeah i think that's normal i guess is what i'm saying and i i just wonder if I'm not, I don't know how helpful I'm being here, but it makes a lot of sense that men in your community,

the type of guy you're looking for, is the type of guy who grows up in your community, devout, religious, you know, believes in the same thing you believe, believe in, and will most likely probably at some point in their 20s, late 30s, lose their religion a little bit,

dabble in the outside secular world a little bit, right?

Be tempted and then find their way back to their faith.

in God.

And,

you know, but like that, that losing their religion allows allows them to kind of like, I don't know, just learn a little bit about the world, understand it, know how to include it, but not be immersed by it, you know, and so they feel a little more normal as opposed to like,

you know, a caged tiger who's never really seen the light of day.

And I feel like

some of the guys feel that way.

Like, like, I feel like they're, like, you go on a date with them and they, they don't know what to do with themselves.

They have all this like extra energy that they're just like,

that makes a lot of sense because like a lot of a lot about

the way there's a so there's so many threads to potentially and layers to pull back here but like a lot about devout religion is about suppression and right i mean it just is and and that can and how that's channel handle how that's channeled right could be your your dad sounds like a man who's been able to find that balance he hit it's it doesn't maybe feel like suppression to him it felt it feels like sacrifice and devotion and the ability to channel that healthy in a healthy way.

Where like maybe young men who have only just been told what not to do and then like just kind of operate from a place of fear.

So they don't try other things and they're just, they're suppressed, you know, and they don't know how to, you know, channel their emotions and their feelings.

And they, you know, they don't know any better.

So they're,

you know, by the time they show up across the table from you, you're just like, what am I?

Yeah, is this for real?

Like, and then you meet the guys who are a little bit more normal, and they're like, I don't know if I'm ready for this whole like hardcore devotion thing.

Yeah,

yeah, that's it.

That's that's yeah, you did it.

You summed it up really, really well.

It's, yeah, I didn't even think about it.

That's the reason that's why I don't like the more religious guys.

Not that some of them aren't like

relaxed and not like a cage tiger, but some of them, it's like,

I don't even know.

Like, I'm just like,

where are you coming from?

Like, like, what's going on here?

Yeah, no, it makes sense.

Like, it's actually happening.

Like, I don't.

What's disappointing with the last guy is because, like, had he just been like, listen, if I'm being totally honest, I'm definitely like, I question my religion more than maybe I used to as a young man.

But

if he said that, I would have married him.

I would have.

Like, he, he didn't, he didn't give me any talking things.

Like, nothing.

Yeah.

And if, and, and if he would have said, like, I just want to be honest about that, but like, obviously, I want to raise our kids and I want us to have a faith-based life.

And I want us to, like, have God be like a centerpiece in our marriage.

But, like, at the same time, just to be totally honest with you, like, I'm, I'm, I'm going to watch Love Island.

Uh, and, and sometimes I just need to shake it up and, and, uh, be a bad boy.

I don't know.

I feel like, yeah, you would have have been down for that.

Yeah, I would have.

Yeah, I would have done it.

So maybe that, that's your balance.

You know, that's, you know, that's what,

like, you don't think I made a mistake with that last guy.

No, because he gave you nothing.

Right.

You know, like, there was just right, right.

It was just dead.

Because you do, like, religion's important to you.

That's a non-negotiable for you, right?

Like, you, you, it sounds like talking to you, you will meet, you're willing to marry someone who,

like I just described, is like honest about the fact that like they question their religion more than they feel like they should sometimes.

They, they have done things and dabbled and tried things out that are quote unquote, you know, they're not supposed to do or against their religion.

And they've, they've made some choices that maybe the rest of their community might frown upon, but like, you're the woman I'm going to get engaged to.

So

I'm going to tell you everything.

And I hope that you accept me.

But I've been bad.

So, you know, and and but like I definitely want us to raise our kids and in in this church and i want us to challenge each other about our faith without judging each other and shaming each other and just find that balance

um and then you know that sounds like you're down for that right

yeah i am you know there you go i mean and then how do you do you ever with these men like so my last take like what i'll leave you with is If you meet that type of guy, like this last guy, and again, I don't think you made a mistake, but like,

I guess, what do you offer do you meet do you meet them at their level so to speak i'm so confused i'm confusing you yeah okay sorry well if if you're meeting a guy who like like says what i just said right that's how he presents do you offer up anything to relate to them

right yeah you know in terms of things that technically you shouldn't be doing or do you ever question your religion Do you ever have doubts about things?

Do you dabble in secular things from time to time that maybe you shouldn't do?

You know, that's what I'm saying, meeting them at their level.

Because if someone's going to come to you and say, hey, if I can be totally honest, this is how I feel.

And you're like, well, I don't relate.

I'm just, I love God and everything I've learned is like, that's what I want.

And I'm hardcore.

And that's who I am.

Like, that's going to be harder for that guy to feel accepted or like that you're a match.

And, you know, you're going to have to meet him at his level, at your comfort level, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, no, I, I, I think I,

I mean, maybe I could do more of it.

Yeah, I could do more of that.

I think I do.

I think I like, usually

it's not a problem.

Usually the guys end up sharing way too much with me.

Um,

that's usually what happens.

Um, but I mean, I would, I don't know what it'd be like to have to try to.

have six dates and then get engaged.

I would, I would, I would, I would tell you everything too.

I'd be like, all right, well, there's no secrets here.

Yeah, yeah, they usually just like, it just share and just like, it's just like their entire life's come out.

Like, it's just, that's just what, I think that's just what happens.

Like, just, you know, it's interesting talking to you.

And I, we do have to wrap it up, but like, you present as someone, and again, this is maybe just an unfair stereotype.

Yeah.

But you, and I, and again, I'm very comfortable and familiar with very religious people,

but you, you sound like a normal person.

You know, you all, you, you come across as a woman who's at least familiar with how like the normal secular world dates.

And you have some of the same standards and desires and

particular interests that other women also have, coupled with this very religious background, you know?

Yeah.

And so it's not surprising to me that you're having a hard time finding your very religious equal.

Yes.

Wow, you nailed it.

Yeah.

Like, like, I feel like if you were like, you know what, I'm going to go and date, like, I'm going to go on the apps.

You would find a lot of men interested in dating you, whether you would want to date them or not.

But I don't think a lot of men would be like, who's this weird religious freak?

Oh, my gosh.

Wow.

Thank you.

Well, that's.

I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't know.

I know you wouldn't know.

But, but I also feel like.

Even the fact that you said I was beautiful, like you have no idea.

Like, I'm like totally keeping that comment with me because no one ever, like, no one tells me that.

Like, like a guy's not allowed to say that on a date.

So like the fact that you said that, like, you've probably never.

You step outside.

I mean, there's a certain level of objective.

Like, you know, know, you're, you're an attractive person.

No, thank you.

No, I just, I'm going to definitely keep that comment with me because like nobody

you're on dates with, they can't, are they not allowed to say that?

They're not allowed to say that.

Crazy.

No, no, they're not, they're not allowed to comment my looks at all.

Yeah, it's just like, I, I, I don't, you know, I don't know how if I've been much helpful, but like, yeah, there's, you guys have a lot of rules that are just hard.

hard even for me to comprehend how to, you know, because

you're you're trying to strike that balance between, hey, listen, your parents are going to pick your husband and you're just going to make it work kind of life,

like in a prearranged marriage versus like, you know, the wrestler will, which is like, hey, go find what you think your best fit is.

And the world's gotten pickier and pickier.

And now we have all these apps and everyone has all these options and no one, like everyone's just like, ah, I just like, I want to pick the perfect person and everyone's like.

spending their entire adult life waiting for perfect when they kind of just need to pick someone who's like a nice match to them and then and and then figure out how to make it work you know um

because that's like that's how you know it works but like you're you're trying to do both yes

um and you you you have to you i guess i'll leave you to this you have to find your balance too is that it's it's not settled yet in me you're saying my own balance it's i'm not convinced you know exactly what you want for yourself i think you have an idea of what your life looks like but in terms of the day-to-day day-to-day, like,

you know,

I just think as human beings, even the most religious people, like have, everyone has their vices.

Every, you know, you have a wandering mind.

Like, what are, what are your fan?

I don't need to hear them, but like, what are your fantasies?

Like, when you're, you know what I'm saying?

And like, these are not, like, you're not really, that's also a rule.

You're not really supposed to have like.

But it doesn't matter what you're supposed to have.

You're a human being and you're, you know what I'm saying?

Your dad has thoughts and your mom's mind wonders.

They might come, they might catch themselves and go, oh, nope, sure.

But like, you know what I'm saying?

That part of you that has curiosity and asks questions about the world and the meaning of life and like is, is, is

seduced by whatever thing they're not supposed to watch.

Like, you know, like human beings, like you're a human being.

And so human beings like have to deal with all these emotions.

you know, and and you're a human being that's a part of this community and it's important important to you.

And you're trying to strike that balance of a very

historic and a very ancient and a very old religion and a very modern time.

And that's a challenge.

It is.

But I think it's really important for you to find more and more about like your core principles and your North Star and

how you include God into your life rather than the answer to all this question is God.

Does that make sense?

No, it makes really like a lot of sense.

And Mike, I appreciate you taking the time to, to really figure that out with me.

All right.

Well, hopefully this is helpful.

I'm very fascinated.

If you, if you ever want to call for a follow-up, we'd love an update on your, your dating life.

We'd love to follow your story and your journey.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'd love to.

Yeah, I mean, like, the most I know about the Orthodox Jewish religion is that show Orthodox on Netflix, which was like popular in the pandemic.

Is it sounding similar?

Well, a lot of it.

I mean, like, that, that paints a very, again, like that even that even that show taught, you know, there's, there, that show recognized some of the unhealthy aspects of that community and religion.

I don't know how accurate that stuff was, but every religion has their dark side, you know, and every religion, like, again, a lot of it is based off suppression and shame.

A lot of it is how it is interpreted and how it is done, you know, like.

No, no, I think people could take religion and

make it the best thing or make it the worst thing.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's how you take it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Thank you so much.

Try doing,

I got to think you got to find your things that you do for yourself, even if you're not supposed to do it.

Okay.

Okay.

I'll have to.

I don't want to be like, you know, and influence your life negatively or like, I don't know if your parents listen to this, but I just, you got to find your, your dad has his own moral compass.

I'm convinced by that.

Oh, yeah.

Oh my gosh.

If you wouldn't be,

you, you're literally like him.

Like, I, I, I mean, I always tell that to my father.

He's like, okay, sounds cool.

I don't know if

no, no, he's very, he's very similar.

Like in like, yeah, he just, he just is, you know, like he just, he, he gives it as it is.

And yeah.

Well, yeah, but like that, your dad's ability to be a very devout religious man is that he has conviction, conviction in himself.

Right.

And he is following his compass that is based off of his religion.

He doesn't question himself.

And he is, I'm guessing, prepared to be held accountable for whenever he meets his maker.

I think you make a lot of decisions based on what you think you should do.

Yes.

And I don't think your dad spends a lot of time questioning that.

I think he knows what he should do and he does it.

Okay.

All right.

You should channel your dad.

Okay.

Thank you so much for that.

All right.

All right.

So good talking to you.

Thanks for the call.

It's a pleasure.

Bye-bye.

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How's it going?

It's good.

My name's Hattie.

I'm 29 years old and my due date is the day after my best friend's wedding.

Lux for your friend.

Yeah.

So

what are your options?

Like, what do you think?

Well,

what can I help you with?

Like, to decide if you should like skip the delivery or what?

That's obviously not an option.

But I actually wound up having a dream

and it went horribly like, right?

So I panicked and I called her the next day because I was like, I can't, I can't keep it to myself anymore.

It's like, it's harboring itself in other ways now.

So I went ahead and I told her and she actually took it way better than I thought she was going to.

How did you think she was going to take it?

I thought she was going to, like, in my dream, she like didn't want to be my friend anymore.

She was like, you did this on purpose, like made it sound like I was malicious.

And I was, I was just devastated.

Is this a healthy friendship?

Yes, it really is.

Like, I don't know.

I just am an anxious person and I don't like to let people down or disappoint them.

So I think it's just like a me thing.

But, you know, she took it well.

She was like, you know, it sucks.

I'm sad.

Is this in the dream or in reality?

No, in real life, in real life.

She was like, I wish you could be there.

Like, I hope that's how it works out.

Like, maybe you deliver three weeks early and can still try to like just be a guest.

And I was like, yeah, like that, you know, that's best case study.

Are you supposed to be a maid of honor or bridesmaid?

I'm supposed to be a bridesmaid.

And my daughter, who is two, is supposed to be her flower girl.

Can your daughter daughter still go yes so i talked to my in-laws and my in-laws live like two hours away from where the wedding's gonna be and they offered to take her so that she can still be a part of it honestly that seems like a great thing because is this your second child this will be my second child okay yes i i you know there's always like oh you know how do you hand like what's the you know that transition from one to two kids and right now your whole world is your daughter right and now right now it's supposed to be something else and this will give your daughter like a moment she'll be it she'll probably feel really cool and she'll be the flower girl and it like it's it's actually like from a timing standpoint in that regard as it relates to like giving her something your daughter to focus on and while you're you're focused on your newborn and you're not feeling guilt about what your daughter's doing you know that she's like having an exciting moment she'll be excited to talk to you about and like kind of cool yeah that's you know that's what i'm hoping for i'm hoping that she doesn't have like a complete meltdown without me she's only been away from me once i'm a stay-at-home mom so like i don't have a ton of time away from her so that's yeah best case scenario it's like a great experience for her and you know she still gets to have her flower girl i just may not be there how many months uh how many months away is your due date um it is i guess like seven eight i don't know i'm due in march so okay so you have some time to one

just one you know just maybe create a not create distance between your daughter but like i'm sure you know like just

you know build independence and confidence.

Yeah, slowly but surely, you know, like

we are very active in Rivers life and we're, you know, we're,

Natalie is, I guess, essentially a stay-at-home mom, but like we have very busy lives and we have cool opportunities and we are lucky enough to have, you know, grandmas and, and, and friends be, like, help with childcare and things like that.

But the most we've left River for is three nights.

First it was one night, then it was two nights, and it was, you know, and it's, you know, it's like, um, but it's, you know, a little bit here or there.

And I, you know, it's not easy for Natalie.

I'm always, you know, but it's like, this is,

she, she learns that we're coming back.

It's good for them.

Yeah.

She learns that we come back and things like that.

So, you know, something to be mindful of if you're worried about, you know, your daughter's ability to handle that.

Now it's like another, it's a goal to.

Try it out.

Yeah, work towards that.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Well, I have a whole other like layer to this.

So the bride took it fine, right?

She was like, happy for you, sucks for me, but it's going to be okay in the end.

So I called her maid of honor, which was also my maid of honor.

Like we're in this like tight-knit group of friends.

And

she essentially told me that I should have waited four weeks and that it was, she didn't say I was selfish, but like, that's how it made me feel, like insinuated that a decision.

You should have waited four weeks.

That I shouldn't have gotten pregnant, that my husband and I should have

been more careful.

That is an insane thing.

Yeah, it, yeah, it was not fun.

So, like, but like, but like, also, like, that's just, you know, you have to just understand

that's an insane thing for her to say.

And she's just a hundred percent wrong.

I'm glad that you said that because that's, I mean, every, anybody else that I've like talked to about it is like, I can't believe she said that to you.

But it's so difficult to have a kid.

It's such a blessing to get pregnant and begin with.

So many families struggle with it to sit there and decide that, you know,

you're doing family planning around like nothing.

Like, there's

nothing, no one, no one else really matters.

I don't know.

That's my opinion.

It's your family.

And like, you know, like it all, you don't,

you, yeah, I mean, it's an insane thing.

Also, because like you don't know,

you know, you didn't know you were going to get pregnant, you know?

No, and we, my husband and I had talked, like, we have been wanting another one for about a year now, but we decided that we were going to start trying after my daughter turned two, which she turned two like literally a few weeks ago.

So, we wound up getting pregnant just like a little bit before like what we were already planning.

And my friends already knew that.

That that was something like my husband and I had been talking about something that we were going to start doing.

So, to me, it shouldn't have even been that shocking that it happened, even if it happened sooner than what was expected.

So, how did you leave?

What, what did she actually say?

I sent a message or I sent like a screenshot of like what she had

said to me after the phone call.

Cause I, when I called her on the phone, I told her, she was like, I'm happy for you, but like, I'm confused, like, why you didn't wait four weeks.

And then I was like, well, I'm stepping back from like bridesmaid things.

I said, I'll still go to the bachelorette party.

That's fine.

Like, it's early enough in the pregnancy.

You didn't say anything in response to that.

You just let her know.

No, I just kind of blew over it because I was like, what am I going to say?

I'm not going to justify my actions to you.

And then when she texted me, it was kind of along the same lines, like, I don't understand why you didn't wait four weeks.

And then it's extremely unfair to our friend that she doesn't get to have you there because of the choice that you made.

And

does this, does this person have kids?

No, and she doesn't want children, like ever.

Okay.

Yeah, which is a whole other like, you don't even understand what it's like.

I think you just ignore.

I mean, like, yeah, there's no, don't waste your breath explaining.

I mean, I myself, I would have been like, it's none of your fucking business.

You don't know what you're talking about, but thanks for sharing your opinion.

That's what I would have said, but I'm not, that, that, that's not, that's definitely not like the,

yeah.

I told her, I said, your feelings are valid.

And I said, you know, so is the bride's feelings.

They're valid.

Like, it's, it's an upset, right?

Like her day is like going to be because I'm not there.

I was like, but I mean, I don't know.

Like,

it's

whatever.

I, you know,

you're, you're, it's her wedding.

It's not your wedding, you know?

And yes, would it have been nice that her, one of her best friends would be there for sure.

But if her, if she's wasting her, any part of her day

thinking, oh, I wish she was there, like, that's, I don't know.

I don't remember giving a fuck about who wasn't at my wedding on the day of my wedding like that was not a concern of mine that's true you know and it's not that i was you know there are some people who couldn't make it some people i really wanted to come and that and shit happens and life happens and i a couple family members not being able to make it for choices that i didn't personally like i i didn't like to but whatever it's fine like no it's like it's just a day

It is just a day, yeah.

You know, and that's a day that's supposed to be special to her.

It's not

and her husband.

and it's just yeah,

the rest is all bullshit,

correct.

The rest is a show, like you know what I mean.

Like, me standing up there, that's like part of the show, it doesn't have any impact in the like the longevity of their relationship.

No, like, so it would be great to be there to support her because we've been friends for 10 years and like I get it, but I don't know.

To me, it's not the end-all be-all.

I only say this to you because you need to know this, right?

And like, yeah, I

have a gift, and that is to not give a fuck about things that I know I shouldn't give a fuck about.

And I just leave it out the door and I move on with my life.

I'm envious of that.

I will fixate and I have been fixating.

Like, but you just need to know, you need like, listen, it's important to know when you're not right.

It's important to be able to be humble and say, hey,

it's good for me to get some feedback from people or for someone who's close to you to sit you down and say, hey, I think you're being a little like self-centered right now.

It's important to have those qualities.

It's also important to know when like you're right, you know, and you're right for whatever reason, you know, because it's, this is a decision I made for my family.

And I don't need outside voices.

And if that outside voice is my mom or, or my best friend, or my, my father-in-law, fuck them because like they're wrong.

You know, and like, it's none of their goddamn business.

And when it comes to like adulthood and having your family and planning your family and having a relationship with your husband and being parents together and raising your kids, you guys need to make a ton of decisions together.

And it's great to get feedback from people who are, you know, older and wiser and have been there before.

And it's great to seek out advice, but at the end of the day, you need to know

what is right and is wrong.

And you need to know when to shut outside noise out, especially now that you're pregnant.

Yeah.

It's been like so stressful.

Like honestly, since I found out my due date, I was like, oh, fuck.

Like, it's just been...

You know what I'm saying?

You're, you know, like, you know how, you know, stress.

It's not.

It's not good.

It's not bad.

You know what I'm saying?

And like, put you, put your prairies in line.

This fucking chick who doesn't want

a life remotely like yours or the overall health of your baby.

Like, what's more important?

Her, her feelings or your baby's health.

Valid.

Yeah.

And like, it's that simple.

Like, and so then you just stop giving a fuck about some girl whose life is only, I don't know if you, are you friends with this girl?

Yeah, like she was my maid of honor and I was her maid of honor.

So like we not, not, not the bride.

I'm talking about the

maid of honor is, was also my maid of honor and I was her maid of honor.

So like we're actually the chances of chances

that you're going to continue to grow further and further apart.

Not because you just want different things.

She doesn't.

You want a family and you're going to invest, you know, and she doesn't.

And, you know, once kids show up, like it just changes your calculus, as you know, like not personal.

It's not you know i have buddies who aren't parents it's not we're still friends but i you know it's different

yeah it's not the same you know so i have a another question for you then okay so i we're supposed to go to the on like a lake trip with them in two weeks like the maid of so the maid of honor and her husband and then the bride and her fiancé and me and my husband and my daughter were all we're all supposed to go together and spend like a weekend at the lake And like, after the conversation that we had, I just, I don't know, I don't necessarily, I feel like there's just going to be a lot of tension.

And it's going to be like one of those things where like, we're playing nice and/or it has like the potential to blow up because my husband is pissed right now at her.

And he's very much like you in the aspect where he's like, literally, fuck her.

Like, this is ridiculous.

And he wanted me to respond a lot differently than I did with, like, your feelings are valid.

And, you know, like,

he's like, no, you should have put her in her place.

So I'm really scared that my husband, if we went, would do just that.

Do you think you could have this conversation with her without stressing yourself out, one, first and foremost, with a little bit more authority?

Tell her a little bit more honestly about how you feel and hopes that she would just like, you know, just say, hey, and it goes something like, listen, your comments to me the other day bothered me a little bit.

Like, I understand that you were just trying to be a friend to Megan,

but like, and I totally get that, you know, you don't want what I want, but like, you definitely overstepped when it came to like sharing your opinion about like how I'm building my family and my life.

And like, I'm not even gonna get into like what you said, but like, I'm not planning, I'm not planning on like having, like, I don't even know how you say it, but it's just like, that was none of your business.

And that was a really insensitive thing to say to me and whatever your husband's name is.

You don't need to share uh

and and she should apologize

you think she owes me an apology i think she i think she needs to recognize that it was insensitive whether she wants to have kids or not to like understand like the position of a pregnant woman and the emotional like the the just the sensitivity around that

you know and that she decided to put what she could only assume that you probably felt bad about not going you know she right.

I'm assuming she so like the fact that she decided to in that moment say something that would only make you feel more bad or more guilty about something that like you didn't want this, but for you, you know, but for her to assume that you're going to family plan around

a friend's wedding is the most absurd thing.

Yeah.

I, and the thing is, is like, my husband and I have been talking about like not going and then like the direction in which to like, do we lie?

Do we just say like, oh, dog sitters fell through, like can't make it?

Or do we be honest?

Because this isn't like the first time she's like done.

Yeah.

You got to be honest.

You got to get, you,

if she's a real friend, this person was your maid of honor, give her a chance to see your point of view.

Like you don't, this isn't that, you don't, guys, you don't have to turn this into a high school fight.

You don't have to, this doesn't require kicking and screaming.

and name calling and it doesn't need to turn into drama.

But if this person is worth a friend that's worth continuing to invest in into adulthood, she should understand you and your husband's point of view.

And if she can't, that is definitely a red flag.

And maybe a signal that like, this isn't a friendship you guys should do much investing in because like

you're not judging her for her choices.

She doesn't want to have kids.

That's fine.

God bless her.

Whatever she wants to do with her life is cool.

Listen, I guess.

Yeah, I guess before you have kids, it's just, you know, like it, you do.

It's super easy before you have kids to be able to say like you could have waited four weeks before you had kids well yeah because you you the only thing you prioritize is like i guess your job and your boss is like okay well you can either have vacation or not have vacation or but other than that you get to do whatever the heck you want in life you know your priority i guess is your friends and family you know or you know trips you want to take or like bucket list things that you want to do and then like you just kind of Yeah, you make things work.

But yeah, what your friend doesn't understand is like once kids are in the equation and like clearly she's never experienced trying to get pregnant and the difficulties around that and just,

you know,

and you don't really need her to understand that, but like she should at least understand

a little bit about that it's certainly none of her business.

And then as a as a pregnant woman, that wasn't really her call to make you feel more bad about something.

That is just really none of her business and something that at a minimum, whether she wants to have kids or not, should have been able to like have a little bit more empathy for someone who does.

Correct.

And like, I, and I think the reason why, you know, like I told her, like, your feelings are valid, because I do see both sides, I guess, in the essence of like, I do have a friend who's getting married and this is an important day for her, and I wish I could be there.

But on the flip side, like, two two things can be true at once where two happy things can be happening at once.

Like, somebody can get be married and somebody can be having a kid.

Like, and I just felt like I thought she was going to be bipartial and be able to see that.

Like, there's two happy events happening and that it wouldn't have like blown up into how she feels so that's not it's not about her feelings it's not even her goddamn wedding no it's not but she's like made this about her and like protecting our friend and i don't understand to me it feels like almost too that she's picked a friend over the other like my other my other friend the bride her feelings are more valid or more important than mine.

Yeah, maybe, maybe to her.

I don't know.

And maybe that's not true.

That's just how I feel.

well you're talking about someone who doesn't want kids and doesn't see the value in having kids and it's not a priority to her but getting married was and having that party it was and yeah

a lot of people get married because they want to have a family and want to have that partnership and raising a family that's like what it ultimately leads to yeah

I don't know what your friend is like, you know, I'm not saying the only reason you get married is for that.

I'm just saying

having kids brings so much purpose into into your life.

You don't have time for other things that you found purposeful that you now find trivial.

Doesn't make you right or them wrong.

It just changes your perspective.

And the reality is, is that there are things that she still values greatly that you kind of find

to be superficial or trivial now that you've

brought other things into your life.

And I'm not, you're not right and she's wrong,

but she needs to at least respect your choices.

And she,

you know, I do think whether you want to have kids or not, you need to respect that.

Like, if you, if there are people in your life you care about who do want to have kids,

you need to recognize the sensitivity around

how important it is to not stress out.

you know, that person.

And if you're a friend who puts their feelings

over

the feelings of your pregnant friend, that would ultimately cause them stress, especially when it has nothing to do with you just because out of like principle, like what, what is the hill that she's dying on here?

To me, I don't even, at this point, I don't even know because I feel, like I said, I feel like she like picked aside.

It's like this friend's like day is more important than you bringing an addition into the family.

Like, but I don't think she, I don't think she picked it.

I think that's just like where her priorities lie.

She can't, she doesn't relate to you yeah she has no idea what it's like to but she be a mom but she yeah so to be to continue to be a friend in your life you need to know that she can empathize with you and maybe in the heat of the moment this is how she handled it but like if you calmly come come to her as a friend and say hey listen that like definitely hurt our feelings i think you know it's one it just hurts it hurt my feelings knowing that like obviously i'm heartbroken i can't be there i'm i'm yeah i feel bad i've had guilt over it so for you to

after i had already talked to emily about it and now i'm talking and she was generally like obviously sad but okay with it only to get like your response and basically telling me like i should have not gotten pregnant is honestly kind of a crazy insensitive thing for you to say to me and it just really hurt my feelings and i think it's what you say and see how she see how she responds.

And it may, and I would say it hurt our feelings.

Yeah, like my husband's as well, like include him into, yeah, because yeah, he's, yeah, he's pretty upset, like more so than I was.

Like, and it's because for me, this isn't like, this is not my first time with her doing something like this.

Like whenever she found I was pregnant with my first one, it was.

I was pregnant at her wedding, but I didn't obviously miss her wedding.

I made it, but I was pregnant at her bachelorette party.

So I couldn't partake in like the drinking and the going out and the clubbing.

And so like, in a way, she told me, like, I kind of ruined her bachelorete party because I couldn't party the same way everybody else could.

That's fucking crazy.

Yeah, that's fucking crazy.

I'm like, dude, like, it's just, it is.

I kind of hate your friend.

I, you know, yeah, like, oh, and then, like, okay, so also my wedding day, I guess my mother-in-law had mentioned something like I was getting off of my birth control not long after that, which is the truth.

And I hadn't told my friend that.

And she was like, are you trying to get pregnant?

Like, right away.

Like, she's always been very, I guess, scared scared of my life changing and it not going.

Of course, I mean, she's, she doesn't want kids.

Her perfect world is all of her friends also not wanting to have kids because she clearly knows the reality of what it's like when your friends have kids is they become less available to you.

And she doesn't want her friends to become less available to her.

She wants, I guess, I'm assuming she's envisioned this life where she's like, she finds her partner.

And then in an adult life, everyone just parties with their friends and they go on trips together and they go out to dinners and they just like have a fun life with each other for the rest of time.

Yeah.

And that was fun in my early 20s, but like, I'm about to be 30 and that's, I don't want to do that for the rest of my life.

And I just think you need to tell her that.

Yeah.

Like having, and I wish she could understand.

Like, you don't need her to understand, but you do need to tell her.

And you just stop, you just need to stop validating her feelings that don't matter.

I mean, your response empowers her to feel the way she's doing.

Do you feel like I've enabled her?

her yeah no because her feelings aren't valid they were in that moment they were not valid they were irrelevant they were none of her business that's crazy huh yeah i said that's crazy because like i just didn't see it that way like it's crazy you're like blunt being told that it's just like this first of all it's not your wedding and it's not your pregnancy so this is none of your business so like good for you But what what it is is insensitive.

And like, as my friend, you should know that, that, like, you said something really insensitive and dismissive as it relates to my dreams.

And, like, I'm sorry that mine and Megan's dreams aren't like are overlapping, but like, you can be happy for the both of us.

I don't need you to be there in the delivering room.

You should go support our friend.

Obviously, I'm devastated.

I can't be there, but for you to like

say anything to make me feel bad about it is kind of shitty.

Okay, I'll do it.

I'll, I'll be honest.

But you, you clearly have a history with this friend where she feels feels very comfortable expressing her feelings about how you hurt her.

And it's one-sided.

Correct.

That's, yeah.

I usually just take the like brunt end of what her feelings are and that like I have to be a better friend.

Cause like, I feel like over the years, over the last 10 years, it's been like, you did this and I have to apologize for it.

And then I have to make up for it.

I mean, that's where this all comes from, right?

Like, this is the relationship you guys have created and you've been a part of it.

so you are at fault right where she is feel she feels comfortable expressing her disappointment in you and you don't feel comfortable expressing her her disapp your disappointment in her and so she feels very empowered to say these out of pocket things because it's how she feels and and you're always responding being like well okay i'm sorry your feelings are valid and okay um and she's never been put in her place Yeah.

And so one or two things are going to happen.

You're going to, you're going to maturely tell your, tell her how you feel.

and she's going to either respond the way she should, or you're going to realize that maybe this friendship is starting to run its course and like there's not really much of a future here because like your friendship has been very much operating on

what she wants and not what you guys want as friends.

And as long as your guys' priorities were the same, the friendship worked.

And now that your priorities are becoming more and more different, if you want to speak up for yourself and you want to be be heard, she's not down for that.

And

yeah.

But I think when you do it, you have to try to not be emotional about it.

You have to be very matter of fact.

That's like impossible, but I will absolutely do my.

I feel like having my husband there will also, he is very matter of fact, very blunt, very, this is how it is.

I feel like that's part of why we work.

But

I feel like, yeah, he'll be a good steady hand in making sure that I like like follow through and don't chicken out and just cave to keep the peace.

Cause I feel like that's a lot of it is like, I'm a people pleaser.

So instead of standing up for myself, like I just do what I can to like, yeah, this is a really good chance that you've just never stood up for yourself.

And then when you finally do, she'll be like, you're right.

I'm sorry.

That was kind of, you know, I don't know.

Like, maybe.

Yeah.

You know.

And if it doesn't, I feel like that's also the answer.

Like, yeah.

I just don't, I don't have the time, honestly.

I mean, it would just be a crazy hill for them to die on to be like, no, we just really think that you shouldn't have done that.

And we think you're wrong.

Yeah.

And that's just how we feel.

So, do you still want to come to the lake, even though we feel like you,

that would be crazy.

But that would be insane.

You know?

Or she could say, you know what?

You're right.

I'm sorry.

Obviously, I know you want to be there.

And that was a little incentive to me.

And like, let's just go have fun at the lake.

And thanks for letting me know that, you know?

Yeah.

Which is how it should go.

But I just like have a feeling that's not how it's going to go.

I feel like she's going to try to steamroll me, like how it always has been to make sure that, you know, things continue how she would prefer.

Though I can't change being pregnant, you know,

like I can't, I can't fix this situation either.

I just, I, I make sure your husband's by your side, but whatever you do, you can get emotional, but do not, you're, don't apologize

and don't back down

and don't let her see you be

sad about, like, she is wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I,

yeah, she, yeah.

And she's either going to see it or not see it.

You are giving her the opportunity to see her faults in this friendship.

And, and that's it.

And she's either going to take that opportunity or not.

You are not invested.

You have to try to not be invested in the outcome.

Be what it, like, be willing to accept what happens.

Because your only priority right now is you and your husband and this baby you're cooking um

and and your and your daughter and like

you know and like anyone who else who wants to be a part of that

harmony great um and if not no problem

yeah

you know it's not worth it yeah

yeah i don't know no you're right you're right you're right i'm gonna do it and i'm gonna make sure my husband's there so that i follow through

You just have to know you're not wrong.

Okay.

I have to, I have to start believing that because, like I said, the way that she talked to me, the way she made me feel, it just, which I guess I choose my own feelings.

She can't make me feel a certain way.

But

it's knowing you're not wrong.

It's not choosing to feel right.

You are right.

At least about your, you know, for yourself, you're right.

Yeah.

There's no alternative, right?

Like, there's just no, you are not going to family plan around anyone, like, around

anything.

Around anything.

No, yeah, no.

And this baby's not a mistake.

Like, and you're,

And you're not going to let the closest people in your life make you feel bad about that.

No.

And it's that simple.

It's just that.

It's that simple.

Okay, Nick.

I'll do it.

All right.

You're right.

Okay.

Just don't.

You're right.

No, I'm not right.

You're right.

Okay.

I am right.

She is wrong.

And you're going to give her the opportunity to see her mistake.

And if she doesn't want to, that is her problem.

Because you, I mean, not to sound like, you know, I hope anyone listening who doesn't want to have kids, I I'm not coming for you, whatever, like to your life.

The reality is, if, you know, you're going to want to have to find other friends who don't want to have kids.

Because if a bunch of your friends want to have kids and you don't, and you want a life that is centered around, you know, traveling and yeah, and I, I have

dear friends who don't want to have kids and they have, and they have an amazing life, right?

And they, you know, but they don't, they never, they're independent with each other.

And like, you know, they, they have a great time with each other.

Um,

they don't need other people to be a part, like they have a bunch, tons of, they have tons of friends, but like they still have to make their life together, you know.

And your friend sounds like someone who is trying to keep the band together.

And that's I was the first out of my friends to get pregnant, too.

So I feel like I'm the first to really start to break this away, you know.

There's only one other of us that is pregnant or has had a kid.

So, no, you're right.

I am right.

You're right.

Right.

Um, try not to stress.

Well, I appreciate you so much, and I absolutely love your show.

I listen all the time, so I just really appreciate it.

Oh, I appreciate it.

And congratulations to you and your husband.

It's awesome.

Thank you.

And just

don't stress about stupid shit like this.

It's all stupid.

It is.

It's just all stupid.

Right?

Like,

as long as your daughter and your husband are healthy, everything else, and then you guys can, like, pay your bills.

It's all stupid.

So just don't worry about stupid shit.

Okay.

I will.

All right.

Okay.

All right.

Take care.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

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How's it going?

Good.

How are you?

Good.

What's your name?

My name is Cassie.

I'm 32 and I'm calling because my husband is more interested in porn than in me.

Okay.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that.

Thanks.

What makes you feel that way?

Different levels of intimacy, probably, which has been kind of recurring over the few years we've been together.

And then I've recently kind of found out how intense he's watching porn.

Like, what does that look like?

Um, like every other day.

When you say watching it, like he's

like sitting down, you know, some popcorn out and just enjoying porn, or is he like he's masturbating every other day?

And when he masturbates, he watches porn to

accompany that session yeah i mean definitely he's sneaking off and masturbating watching porn okay um which usually i don't think would be an issue i think that that's normal but i think that the problem kind of comes in that i have

expressed that i'm not satisfied in our sex life okay um

and so i've recently found out that he has been sneaking away lying about it you know we've had open conversations before about kind of frequency and stuff like that, but he's been hiding it and kind of turning to porn instead of me.

Okay.

What is, I mean, so what is he saying?

I mean, just that, I mean, we've talked about this when we first got together years ago.

We're both very aware we have different kind of intimacy needs, and we've just kind of chalked it up to him maybe having low testosterone and just kind of being different people.

So I've kind of accepted that.

Well, it's not low testosterone.

It's,

I mean, I didn't like, I just kind of took him for his word.

I trusted him.

Um, and it's just been really bothering me lately.

So I

now that you know, right?

Like, have you sat him down and said, Hey, listen, like, I'm not trying to come from a place of judgment, but like, it's not even just about the porn, but like, it feels like you are watching porn and having enjoying time by yourself rather than with me.

And that, that makes me feel a certain kind of way.

And it feels like you're more in, you know, we're not, it's not something, not something we're enjoying together.

And it seems like it is taking over our sex life.

Like, you know,

that is something I definitely have a problem with.

Like,

yeah, I had almost that identical conversation with him probably about two weeks ago.

And I mean, he seemed to have felt bad.

And he just kind of said, you know, he's tired and sex takes a lot of effort.

And,

you know, it's just an easy out.

True.

Those are all true.

Yeah, which fair.

And like, if we're fighting or something, like he doesn't want to be intimate, we're like, I mean, that doesn't really affect me.

But like this kind of also, I mean, kind of another.

point to it is that when we aren't intimate, we do fight more, which then pushes him away more.

And he kind of said that like sitting and watching porn to him is like, like, women are like art.

And it's just like admiring them, which obviously doesn't make me feel any better about this situation.

It's always weird when they try to like justify it, but like, listen, like, you watch porn, dude.

It's fine, like whatever most guys do on some level.

But it's just like, how, how much is it taking over?

and affecting other aspects of your life?

Or how much is it affecting the things that are supposed to be important to you um it's affecting his marriage like he obviously recognizes that and he's not wrong like yeah sex is like i think women agree too you know it's easier to masturbate than to you know go through the whole motions of sex you know and the

intimacy of it but that matters in a relationship and like life is hard and like you get tired but you you take the time to invest in the things that matter to you And so if this marriage matters to him, he can't just keep coming up with excuses as to why he doesn't want to invest

in his sex life with his wife.

And if he's able to balance both, then great, but he's not able to balance them.

And that's why you're having a problem.

Yeah, exactly.

So was that the first time you said that to him two weeks ago?

No, I mean, we've kind of on and off discussed it, not frequently.

I mean, we've been together for four years.

We've maybe had this conversation once every six to 12 months.

And is it always the same where you basically say, I'm frustrated, here's why.

He gives you a list of some excuses, tries to justify a little bit, and you're like, okay, I guess.

Essentially, yeah.

I mean, like, sometimes after these conversations, it gets better for a while.

Um,

but it kind of just keeps going back to the same thing.

So, all right.

Well, have you brought that up to him?

Yes.

That, hey this is like you know a theme yeah i mean i've brought it up like i've gotten so frustrated that i kind of say like it feels like it's just an incompatibility thing at this point because how like i just don't get how we can be so far apart on kind of what we want and to me like that's a part of a healthy marriage and you know the closeness with each other and you know it trickles into other aspects of your relationship and do you guys have kids together no do you want kids?

Yeah, we're struggling through infertility right now.

I'm sorry.

Thanks.

That can help.

Yeah.

Feeling disconnected from your husband doesn't help, you know, with that type of stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, at a minimum, you need to feel like your husband

cares about this disconnection that you're feeling as much as you do, right?

That at a minimum.

Like,

he can have his reasons, he can have his

struggles, but he needs to care.

You know, he needs to care

and he needs to be a part of finding solutions to this problem that the two of you are having, right?

Right now, he is treating it like a you problem

and he's not seeing it as a we problem.

Yeah.

And he's not doesn't seem to be interested in being a part of a solution.

He's,

I guess, his solution is getting you to not complain about it.

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of how it feels.

I think that he, like, I'm very

much more like the physical intimacy, obviously, and he's more like verbal.

So how often are you having sex?

I mean, I'd say in like

on average, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week.

Okay.

Not terrible.

No, I mean, like, it's probably gone like two or three weeks, but like, we've also only been married for two years.

Like, I'm 32.

like i you also don't have kids too like yeah like it's just i don't see

i just don't understand why like it just seems ridiculous to me um

and he expressed like verbally that he cares and says you know all the right things it feels like have you guys done couples therapy yeah we tried um we went to a few sessions and then he got upset and said he's not going back.

What do you get upset about?

Because that session was more focused on me and my feelings.

And then the next one was supposed to be about him.

And he just felt like it wasn't equal and that couples therapy always takes the women's side.

I mean, he is watching porn in lieu of having sex with his wife.

I don't like.

Yeah.

You obviously came in here like questioning, like, hey, do I stay in this thing?

You know, am I in the right?

Like, you're questioning your marriage at this point, correct?

Yeah, I am.

I mean, this just affects so much more.

Like, I, the longer that we go without being intimate, that

like, I mean, I don't want to say we talk nasty to each other, but it definitely comes into like more disrespectful talk.

And then it just kind of spirals from there.

And then there's all these layers of like horrible things that I don't think are okay to say to someone.

And for me, it just comes back to, well, if like what?

I mean, he's.

like said to me like, thank God we don't have kids together.

And, you know, calling me like a bitch all the time and marrying me was a mistake.

oh yeah you know just like really

are not that not that that's ever okay but like

are what are you saying things to him like what's caught like what's is he are these things just like coming out of nowhere yeah I mean really coming out of nowhere we

we will get into a fight about something because I mean I

without being intimate, do get like a bit more attitude, which I acknowledge all the time.

And so something small will happen.

He's not done the dishes, but he said he he was going to do the dishes, you know, whatever.

And if I bring a point about, well, why did you say you were going to do something you didn't do?

Then he gets defensive.

It spirals into like all these other problems that he has with me and all these other points.

And then I'm just like, well, it's about one problem.

Like, let's keep it about the one problem.

It doesn't need to be like, now I'm a mistake, you know?

Yeah, I mean, that's crazy things to say to him.

I will say, like, it's a fine line between

getting mad at your partner for not putting out.

It's not just about the sex, obviously.

You know, it's just the bigger picture of the porn.

I just think, you know, if you are getting tested simply because he doesn't want to, like, yeah, you, you getting mad at him as a result of him not wanting to put out is maybe something you definitely want to work on.

Yeah, I mean, I don't really, I mean, it's not like in the moment, I'm like, because we didn't have sex last night, I'm going to be angry with you today.

Like, I just feel like over naturally over.

Yeah, like you're feeling, you're feeling rejected, right?

You feel,

you feel, I get it.

I just

want to point out.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, like, you know, one, you just be like, hey, I, I don't, I can't have you talk to me that way.

If this is how you really feel about me, then like, maybe we need to have more serious conversations.

But if you do want to be in this marriage and we are going to keep trying, like.

Can you at least acknowledge that we're not in a good place either?

Like, if you don't want to be married to me, let's just call it.

Like, and if you do want to be married to me and you're saying, you know, then like, A, you got to stop saying those things and two like how are we going to fix this because one thing we can agree on is we're both not happy with this current situation like let's just agree on that um i don't know how to do this by myself i understand you didn't like couples therapy but like either we're going to fix it or we're not going to fix it and we haven't been able to fix it on our own and it's not going to just magically change

you know but what do you do when like you have those conversations because we have had those conversations and I like I'm going to therapy.

I feel like I'm putting in a lot of work.

I've seen a lot of progress in myself over the last few months.

And I say to him, from your part, I can handle everything else.

I cannot handle like the nastiness.

Something has got to change.

How do we work on this?

And if he, every time it's the same thing, I'm going to work on it.

I'll stop saying it.

Like,

at what point do you say enough is enough?

You're, you're, like, you're dealing with like, I guess what I'm saying is like all, all men are very like logic.

Most men are logically thinking.

They like to like reverse engineer their thought process.

So like put them in a quarter, right?

And my point is, is like here, you're saying, oh, well, I'm going to therapy.

I'm doing some work.

Yada, I can, you know, but like you, I can put up a lot of things, but I can't put up with your nastiness.

And so that gives an opportunity to say, well, then I won't be nasty.

You know, and then nothing changes, right?

Like you just said.

But like that is not going to get him to do what you want which is to like one ultimately probably i guess is to jump into therapy or you know but you just say listen can we agree that

like our we're struggling like we're we're disconnected and we're neither of us are happy with this current situation we we both have our reasons and you need to you need to find common ground with your husband right now what is the one thing you can agree on and even if that thing you can agree on is the fact that both of you are just kind of miserable in this marriage yeah

But you don't want to get divorced, hopefully that's his answer.

Yeah, I think we'd both agree with that.

All right.

So there, common ground.

Do all right.

So if we, if we don't ultimately want to get divorced, but we are kind of miserable, then don't you think, like, do you want to keep living this way?

I'm not even, let's forget about whose fault it is right now.

Yeah.

But I don't know how to fix this on my own.

You got to get him to like see your logic, which is,

are we just going to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Right.

Because like, I don't, listen, if I make you miserable, like, just like, let's, let's just, let's just spare each other like the more hurt and pain.

And

if you don't want to change, or if you're not going to change, or

I can't do this by myself, we can't do this by myself.

So what's going to be different?

Yeah.

And you've got to get it to like kind of go down that logical path.

Yeah.

I mean, that makes sense.

And I'm happy to have.

I mean, I feel like I've had versions of of that conversation before.

And

I mean, it always ends up, you know, we're on the same page.

We both agree.

We want to work on things, move forward, but it just ends up in the same way.

Yeah, but like it doesn't play.

Yeah, because you don't do anything.

You try couples therapy once and you quit.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm not saying a couples therapist is the only solution, but like.

You guys need outside help.

Yeah.

Maybe it's a friend.

Maybe it's a priest or a pastor.

I don't, you know, or a life coach.

You know, I don't know.

I don't know.

Parent.

I don't know.

But clearly, you can't do it by yourself.

Yeah.

That's okay.

Most, a lot of people can't.

And this isn't like not going to get easier with kids.

So like before you guys keep trying to have, you know, it's just like you guys are both not happy with this current situation.

Yeah.

I think you just kind of really have to start being.

honest without being mean about how the relate what the relationship looks like and where you want to go from here and see if he's willing to like make some changes.

But he has to, you know, he has to care.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I at some point could probably get him to agree to try counseling or maybe a different counselor.

Or, I mean, he's religious, so maybe a pastor or something.

But, like, at what point, if someone decides that

like they can't change, or it's not worth it, or it's too hard, or whatever,

like when is the point that you

are should walk away i mean i think everyone has their own

that's not really for me to tell you you'll have to decide for yourself but yeah i think when you realize that you've tried every like when they've made it perfectly clear they're just unwilling to do anything different right

it should listen at a minimum it should bother your husband he should he should be even to himself be able to acknowledge like okay maybe i'm watching a little too much porn and like yeah I guess if the roles were reversed, yeah, I would, I see why this bothers her.

I understand that I'm tired.

That's all true.

But like, I don't expect her to like that excuse.

And that would, you know, no one wants to be too tired to be made, like constantly like, I'm too tired to care about you.

I did kind of explain it that way to him, like, if roles were reversed and like, what if I was turning you down or you found out like, you know, that I'm doing that every other day instead of like coming to you?

And I think that that did kind of click with him at that point.

He seemed pretty irritated at the thought of that.

So I think, you know, to some degree, he understands now after kind of explaining it that way.

But yeah, if you were like on Instagram, like just

masturbating the like hot guys on the gram.

And then turning them down for sex.

Yeah, it's offensive.

And if you can't get him to at least say, you know, I'm really, I'm no, I'm not making my wife feel good.

If you can't, you know, then

I don't know where there is to go from there.

Well, I don't think we're there yet.

So that's good at least.

Yeah, it's just

he needs to be able to, you know, it's like, you seem reasonable.

Like, yeah, and your sex life isn't like dead, that's for sure.

I mean, once a week isn't that bad, but again, you have, you guys have no kids.

So, like,

and he's, he's, he's climaxing it, climaxing every other day, Right.

So,

yeah.

He's having sex 10 times in two weeks and, and, and once of those is with you.

Yeah.

I mean, it's definitely not the excuses that he's given me before.

Like that wouldn't make sense for low testosterone.

I mean, now that I know this, because I did only recently

find out.

Um.

Yeah, it's not low testosterone, being tired.

It's just like being,

yeah.

You know,

he's comparing to how he was when he was 21, where it was like, you're never too tired to have sex, uh, to now where it's just like, I don't know, he's got a job and responsibility and like, you know, having sex with the same person, like when you meet someone and it's exciting, you're just wondering if you're going to get laid only to like, oh, I'm going to get laid.

And it's exciting.

And then when you're like in a relationship or married, there's like you, you guys have your routines and you come home from work, you say, hi, someone makes dinner, you guys eat dinner, and then you're kind of after dinner, like routines or whatever.

Then you kind of get in bed, and like no one's everyone's waiting for the other person to make a first move.

And you know, it takes some effort.

Um, and then you're just kind of tired.

That's not has, I don't think that has much to do with testosterone levels in men.

I think this has to do with like giving a shit.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a yeah,

I'd be willing to bet his testosterone.

If he's how old is he?

33.

Yeah, I

knowing that he's watching porn every other

day,

not a doctor, but I bet he'd get a pretty good

health.

I think you just,

you got to keep talking to him.

But it's, I think the big thing is not trying to

attack one thing.

about what he's doing and how it's making you feel.

I think you got to make it a more about a we problem.

This is a you

the relationship is in peril.

The relationship is disconnected.

You guys are fighting.

Things are being said.

Feelings are being hurt.

You are trying to find solutions to this problem that you two are having.

You may not be communicating it as effectively, but he doesn't really seem to be.

His solution to this problem is that he promises to change if you shut up.

And he doesn't change.

Yeah.

And that's just like, what are you supposed to do next?

Right.

And yeah, I think you just got to frame it that way.

Okay.

That makes sense.

That was in any way helpful.

Yeah.

I mean, it makes me feel less crazy for sure.

It's hard to kind of like see it from, you know, going through the same cycles yourself.

You're definitely not crazy.

And sadly, I don't think you're alone.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think it's very common for a lot of men to watch porn or people to watch porn, even in marriages.

And every relationship has their comfort levels with that.

But even for the people who are generally comfortable with their partners watching porn, they just don't want to feel like they're being replaced by the porn that they're watching.

And I totally get the convenience.

It's a lot easier for people to masturbate than to like be physically intimate with their partners.

But that's not an excuse not to be.

And when your partner says, hey, I'm feeling a little like unloved, unseen, unheard, like I just want to like that your partner has to step up and do something about it and make them feel like they're choosing you over the porn.

And like that, that you shouldn't have to have that much harder of a time explaining to him.

And the fact that if you can't get that hurdle, then

there's not much word to go.

So

I think you need to feel like he gets it.

And if he doesn't, you know, I don't know, then maybe there's not much hope.

I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I'm definitely going to have another conversation and make sure that I'm coming across very clear.

Um, because I'm kind of thinking back and I don't know if maybe I just was a bit more shut down than what I thought that I was in the conversation.

Um,

so I mean, that's definitely a good starting place and kind of see, I guess, how he takes that and reacts moving forward.

Well, if he were here, what would he be saying?

What do you think he'd be saying?

That it's easy.

He would say it's not like, that's easy.

What you want me to have?

Like, you want me to have sex?

We'll have sex.

That's easy.

Well, like, that's the type of shit that he would say.

Well, I would say, like, clearly not.

And let's be real.

I would say to him, like, you know, fuck, man.

I'm.

Yeah.

I'm often too tired to have sex.

You know?

What would you say to that?

I mean, like, you know.

I mean, I don't.

He would feel ganged up on, probably.

Yeah, probably.

At some point, he needs a man up.

I don't know.

He needs to step up and just face, you know.

Yeah.

And you say he's super religious?

Yeah, he is.

Are you religious?

No.

I'm not at all.

Well, maybe you should just

shame him.

Yeah, I mean, it's crossed my mind when I've kind of talked to other people.

Yeah, it's kind of brought into it, but.

Yeah, I don't know if Jesus would appreciate him watching porn.

I doubt it.

Watching his wife.

Um,

well, I'm sorry you're going through this, I don't know how helpful I was, but I really just think you need to try to make sure he's willing to fight with you, not in that the fight is not just you by yourself.

Yeah, okay,

all right,

okay, yeah, no, I appreciate it.

Thank you.

All right, well, take care.

Okay,

see you too.

Bye.

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