E973 Ask Nick - My Therapist Is Bestie’s Toxic Ex

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 4 Hey, Nick, my name's Sadie. I'm 35 and my husband and I's best friend is a deadbeat dad and we're not sure where to go from here.

Speaker 1 Is he, I mean, not that it really matters. Are you friends with him through like your husband? Is it like a mutual college friend that you're both friends with?

Speaker 4 Yes, I met him through my husband. Him and I have since become very close.

Speaker 4 We,

Speaker 4 you know, over the years, through all of his relationship experiences, I'm kind of his go-to for advice. Like, he just called me this morning.
We talked for an hour about his current

Speaker 4 relationship.

Speaker 4 But he, if you like, I can go ahead and give you some background on the

Speaker 4 context of why he is a dad is really important. So I can definitely jump into that.
So essentially, our friend was in a very toxic relationship and he finally broke up with her.

Speaker 4 It dragged on for an unnecessary amount of time. Then she ended up showing back up at his house a couple of days later.
They ended up sleeping together. and she got pregnant.

Speaker 4 Come to find out she actually had planned it, as much as you can plan that, as like a last, last ditch effort to save their relationship obviously that didn't go over well with him and he became very very highly triggered by her to the point where he can't have any civil interactions with her and is completely uninvolved in the child's life as of now my husband and i are parents we have little kids ourselves so we've been trying really hard to steer him towards being involved and to make progress in that regard because we know how important it is and she's not a particularly stable person.

Speaker 4 And he historically has been. So we knew how important it was for the child to have that stability in their life.

Speaker 4 And not many of our other friends have kids and his family's not pushing him to be involved at all. So we just really aren't sure where to go from here.

Speaker 4 We seem to be one of his only friends expressing how important it is to be involved. And

Speaker 4 we, many of our friends have just kind of proceeded with him as of as if like nothing has changed, the the child doesn't exist, and we're the only ones like pushing him towards it.

Speaker 4 So it's kind of a balance of do we continue the relationship as is and just try to make small, small steps with him? Or do we,

Speaker 4 you know, cut off the relationship? We just aren't sure how to proceed because we seem to be the only ones that are pushing him in that direction. And,

Speaker 4 you know, the only ones that are giving him guidance to become involved with the child.

Speaker 1 it's a tough situation uh that you just described uh while you're very you know while you were saying and i'm trying to imagine like what i would do if i were in your situation or how i would feel about a friend who is in your friend's situation and like you as a relatively new parent and new dad i i am more

Speaker 1 judgmental and critical of other parents, you know, I think, you know, online everyone is, but like, not in the way that like, listen, I think just being there matters the most, which, you know, obviously I'm sure you understand in terms of like every, I think every parent has a right to parent their child how they want, obviously within reason of their kids being safe and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1 But this is, um,

Speaker 1 it's definitely not the same as,

Speaker 1 you know, you were like, our friends at Deadbeat Dad, and he, you know, got divorced,

Speaker 1 he left his wife, or his wife left him, and now he's just decided to like pretend he's not a dad anymore.

Speaker 1 Um, it's definitely different than that.

Speaker 4 And he does express, he does express a lot of interest in wanting to be a dad, like, he wants to have children, he loves our kids, he's highly involved in their life, he's around a lot, he is consistently asking questions about like our baby, how to raise a baby, and he does want that.

Speaker 5 How old is he just

Speaker 5 her

Speaker 4 own less than a year old? He's like eight or nine months at this point, and he's never met him, never been. There's been no involvement up until this point.

Speaker 4 Mostly, and up until she actually had the child, he's expressed a lot of interest around wanting to be involved and even discussed having like sole custody himself because she is a very mentally unstable person, and that is like could be what's best for the child long term.

Speaker 4 But in where we live,

Speaker 4 it's very hard for him to get that unless he has a mountain of evidence. And

Speaker 4 even

Speaker 4 on the other side of that, up until this point, he doesn't really have many rights until the child reaches a certain age. And then on top of that, the mother is making it very difficult.

Speaker 4 So he does have a lot of barriers. But at the end of the day, my husband and I see it as it doesn't matter how many barriers there are.
Like you could put a mountain in front of of you.

Speaker 4 This is your child. Like you have to prioritize that.
And that's, you know, that's what's going to be important.

Speaker 4 And no matter how many, you know, things she puts in front of you, how difficult she makes it, like you have to make that the focus.

Speaker 4 And he seems to be deterred by any small thing that she does or piece of bad news he gets from a lawyer.

Speaker 1 What was the last conversation? You said you talked to him this morning for over an hour. What do you guys talk? What did you guys talk about?

Speaker 4 So that's actually about his, so he has a new girlfriend.

Speaker 4 And that was, that was a situation with his current girlfriend. And he has since started a new relationship.
We're very supportive of that relationship.

Speaker 4 I still think he has, you know, a lot of work to do personally.

Speaker 4 The relationship he's in now seems to be very healthy. And

Speaker 4 she is supportive of him being involved in the situation.

Speaker 4 So that is helpful, but they haven't made much progress, not much. They have made zero progress other than having the conversation of like, I am supportive.

Speaker 1 How old is he?

Speaker 4 He's my age, around 35. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Why did you guys talk about for an hour and a half if everything in this current relationship is

Speaker 1 solid?

Speaker 4 She's a little bit younger than him, and it's just around her wanting.

Speaker 4 He, at the end of the day, he's pretty insecure. And she is like a decade younger than him.
So she's just in a little bit of a different phase of life socially and is like wanting to go out a lot.

Speaker 4 And he is not in that phase of life. He wants to

Speaker 4 stay in and it's just causing a bit of a rift for them.

Speaker 4 And he's just like not understanding why that's such a big of a priority for her because they're in, it's just coming to their age gap is kind of coming to a head and they're at a crossroads really like,

Speaker 4 she says she wants to settle down and

Speaker 4 she says he's a priority, but is it, I think it's. her actions are at the point where it's in, are they in line with what she's saying?

Speaker 1 Like, is she actually ready to settle down or is she just think she wants to settle down and well i mean a lot of a lot of 25 year olds want to settle down someday exactly that last part they don't often say the someday especially if they're dating someone older yeah or just don't communicate that but for our 25 year olds yeah they'd be like yeah i want to settle down 27 28 you know it's like that sounds cool that gives me a little bit of time even though time goes fast and it's like well what is you know you know someone who has a younger wife yeah where they are matters in their life.

Speaker 1 And if he feels like they want different things in different stages of their life, it doesn't matter if they both want to eventually settle down and have kids.

Speaker 1 At the same time, you know, if he doesn't want to go out all the time and she does, that's just a huge compatibility problem.

Speaker 4 Yes, yes, we've had, we had that conversation.

Speaker 1 Anyway,

Speaker 1 not why he called. What's his financial situation? Just out of curiosity.

Speaker 6 He's

Speaker 4 extremely stable. He does very, very well.

Speaker 5 He

Speaker 4 owns his home, makes great money, is very capable. And the mom of the child is not in that current situation.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 I'm assuming he's spoken with lawyers to understand his situation and rights and things like that.

Speaker 4 Yes, he has. He did.
So he was of the mentality that he was going to be involved as much as he possibly could before the child was born.

Speaker 4 And then he had a conversation with a lawyer that was pretty disheartening to him. And essentially, he can't have much custody or any custody until the child reaches a certain age.

Speaker 4 They favors the mother until they're one or two years old. So he essentially was of the mindset of, well, I can't do anything until the child reaches this age and I'm at her mercy.

Speaker 4 Like at the most, he could have scheduled visitation. And he is like so beyond triggered by her

Speaker 4 that he has kind of just let that go because he can't see past. He's not a parent, so he doesn't, you know.

Speaker 4 I have the experience to know, like, well, you just have to get past that because the relationship with the child is so

Speaker 4 amazing that, you know, any roadblock that's put in your way, you know, you just need to get over. But he obviously hasn't had that experience.

Speaker 4 He doesn't see that like end goal, and he's very blocked by his relationship with her and how unhealthy it is and how triggered they are by each other.

Speaker 4 So he just hasn't had, he hasn't had any involvement up until this point because he can't get past that. And she continues to put barriers in the way.

Speaker 4 And at the beginning, I think she used it as a like last-ditch effort to save their relationship. But now she, now that she is a mom, I mean, I'm speaking for her.

Speaker 4 And, you know, what I interpret based on their limited interactions is that now she sees it as he doesn't, she doesn't want him involved at all because now she just wants the child to herself because he's like a stranger to her at this point.

Speaker 4 So he is, she's making it very difficult for him to have involvement, but at the same time, he's, he's not really trying.

Speaker 1 So you're saying that based on the state that you're in or wherever you're located, that like the parenting laws are such that because they're not married and they have a kid together, like that, he doesn't have, he has to go to court to get her to agree to scheduled visits because like, I don't know what.

Speaker 5 Yes. Yes, they have to.

Speaker 4 At the most, I think he can have, you know, a handful of hours, like maybe 10 hours a week of visitation with the child.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure if she needs to be there or not, but regardless, he can't have the child come stay at his house. It's very limited in what he can do.

Speaker 4 But I would imagine, I mean, I'm not a lawyer and I've never had any experience with this kind of situation, but I would imagine, in order for there to be any kind of custody when it comes to the point where he's able to have custody, there has to be some kind of experience with the child prior, but he

Speaker 4 has

Speaker 4 not had any.

Speaker 4 so all right well it's a tough tough situation i already said that i i feel like the i don't think this is a situation where you cut off your friend you you kind of floated that out there you know no i don't think cut off i don't think cut off our friend and i like we love him so much that's not what we want it's more we don't want to make it seem like we're okay with how things are going and be like complacent in him not being involved in the child's life, having kids.

Speaker 4 And, you know, we just had a baby ourselves when this happened. The kids are only a couple months apart.
So it's very fresh and emotional for us as well. Totally.

Speaker 4 But we just aren't sure how to proceed because we seem to be the only ones really pushing him in that direction. He's not getting that from his family.
Our other friends don't have children.

Speaker 4 So they can't really understand either. And one, I am the person that he goes to for a lot of advice.
And I, he has kind of pulled back because I think he knows where I stand and it's in

Speaker 4 not in line with what he's currently doing. So he doesn't, he brings up his current relationship a lot, but not his, the, the child a lot.

Speaker 4 So we just don't, aren't sure how to, how to go from here, how to encourage him to get involved, how patient we should be with it, or how pushy we should be with it, considering we're the only ones that really feel this way.

Speaker 4 Our friends actually do, but they're not vocal about it.

Speaker 1 What have you said to him?

Speaker 4 So it's been kind of confusing because up until this, up until the child was born, up until he had that conversation with the initial lawyer he was pretty and you know sure that he was going to be involved and then he had that conversation he was really deterred and he kind of it was kind of like he he lost steam

Speaker 4 so then our conversations went more like and then when the child actually got here he and it became more real it's like he he pulled back and you know i would consistently ask him about like hey because he was making making like pretty small steps until earlier this year.

Speaker 4 And then it kind of came to a halt. And now he's at a point where he has to make a decision.
He has to establish paternity. And he hasn't done that yet.
And she won't do it voluntarily.

Speaker 4 So he has to sue her for paternity. And he hasn't done that yet.
And we've been lingering in that step for a long time. So

Speaker 4 more,

Speaker 4 you know, a few months ago, we had like a pretty good heart to heart with him where we're like, hey, like you can't be a deadbeat dad.

Speaker 4 Like it's not about at the end of the day, it's not about you, you and her relationship. Like, you made a decision, she made a decision, and this child is paying the price for it.

Speaker 4 Like, you need to be focusing on that child. And he completely agrees, but he, again, is so triggered by her.

Speaker 4 And we've had conversations around therapy, and he is in therapy and has been for a really long time. But

Speaker 4 to me, his therapist is not super effective at this point anymore. And

Speaker 4 they aren't doing the hard work. Like, they're not having the conversations that they should be having.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, you should be coming out of therapy, like feeling like you've accomplished something. Like, oh, that was really hard.
We really dug deep there.

Speaker 4 And he never, it's more of just like someone validating his feelings. So I've encouraged him to get another therapist because he has so much to work through and they're not working through it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's a lot of not, you know, great therapists out there.

Speaker 1 If he were my friend, right, I would do some version of what you're already doing, but it's more about trying to paint a picture about the long game. Right.
You know, right now,

Speaker 1 you've said multiple times he's triggered by her, he's triggered by her. I have no doubt.
And I can completely empathize with why. But there is a part, which I'm sure you've kind of alluded to.

Speaker 1 You know, he's an adult man who made an adult choice, you know, and

Speaker 1 she came over. They had unprotected sex.
You can't be like, oh, she's crazy. She's crazy.
She's crazy. She's crazy.
She's crazy. Oh, she's a psycho.
She's a psycho.

Speaker 1 And then he invites her over or she shows up or whatever. They have unprotected sex.

Speaker 5 She's broken.

Speaker 4 Yeah, she broke it. But he still made that decision.

Speaker 1 But I'm like, I mean, that's a whole other thing. Even like, yeah, I mean, like,

Speaker 1 broke in.

Speaker 1 Either way, yeah.

Speaker 1 Then he came inside of her, you know, like he, it's, yeah, he's got shocking. So, whatever.
It just, he needs to take that ownership. He needs to accept that.

Speaker 1 Right now, he, because he can easily be like, she broke in, she's crazy, she's all this. It's just so easy to paint her.
And she is, you know, in some version of the, is the bad guy to him.

Speaker 1 And she is going to make his life probably difficult but he will be a happier person and go further in life uh in general by just like owning what he did wrong and how he can improve his situation yeah he's very much so in the victim mindset yeah so sure you know that's step one and then step two is yeah just painting this picture of just like like this could be as difficult as it is one of your best moments in your life.

Speaker 1 You know, very few opportunities in our lives do we get to be someone's hero.

Speaker 1 Do we get, you know, and parenting in general, I think, as you obviously, I'm sure, feel recently, you know, you just had another baby, you have young kids, you're, you guys are relatively new parents.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like most of us live these very charmed, privileged, whatever, like, you know, mundane lives and whatever. And the most meaningful thing we can do is be parents, right?

Speaker 1 And then now he, you know, he doesn't have an ideal situation, but he has a chance to be this kid's hero, you know, and he has to think about the long game and he has to think about the impact he can have on this child's life for years to come, you know, as a 35-year-old man.

Speaker 1 And he's got to want to have to have that fight. And thank God he's in a, he's a successful man who has money and can make these fights.
And yeah, it might cost him in ways, but like, again, like,

Speaker 1 so you just got to paint that picture of it's an opportunity for him. You know, you're not going to get very far by criticizing him and putting him down and calling him a deadbeat.

Speaker 1 It's more about like, you have a chance here to do something that will make you really proud of yourself.

Speaker 1 And if you don't follow up with this decision, this is also something that you, you're, it's going to have years of regret.

Speaker 1 I mean, just, there's just very few parents out there who, for whatever reason, you know, they all have the reasons in the present of why they just weren't as present of parents or why they weren't the type of parents they thought they would be when they thought about being parents.

Speaker 1 And this is something that could haunt you, you know, and it's like he's looking for

Speaker 1 looking for meaning he's looking for purpose and now he's like investing this time in this younger woman again no criticism for me but like it's also someone who's like he's talking to his friend for an hour and a half about a girl he just started dating you don't do that unless there's some serious relationship problems unless you're you know and he's not even willing to see that this is emotional energy that he's wasting on someone who still wants to like pop bottles and he's saying to himself well I don't get why she wants to do that.

Speaker 1 Well, who gives a shit why she wants to do that? She wants to do that.

Speaker 1 Like, I mean, I don't know, like, maybe she had a different childhood than him you know i don't know maybe she was in an isolated family where she didn't get to go out as much i don't know part of the reason why natalie and i work as well as we do is we had very different childhoods you know i got a my parents were very strict i didn't get to do much you know like in my team i mean i had a great childhood but you know what i'm saying i wasn't just natalie was just living by herself at 17 in new york you know she grew up really fast you know that allowed us when we met for her to like actually want to do the same things that that I was looking to do in the time in which we were together.

Speaker 1 It wasn't like I want to settle down someday, you know, and things like that. So he doesn't want to see that right now.

Speaker 1 And honestly, there's a part like this is drama that he can preoccupy himself with. So there's that.
But I get as far as getting through to him, I really think you have to be patient. You really do.

Speaker 1 Don't be the only, you know, you said you're the only people who really feel this way. Well, you don't want to be the only people who are making him feel like a piece of shit.

Speaker 4 No, and we, we aren't, we definitely aren't. Like, we're super supportive.

Speaker 4 The conversations we've had with him are very positive over like i never have said like you are a deadbeat i'm like you can't be uninvolved in this child's life like you can't not be a dad when you have this opportunity to be a dad so i think you just change your messaging into what tell him what he can't do because then it's just like well i mean i can you know yeah yeah he's he solidly has that option you don't want to be this like like I want you to think about 10 years from now and like this is going to weigh on you.

Speaker 1 And yes, this is a shitty situation, but like you, you just have to own the role you played. And now like this, this can't, this can be the best thing that ever happened to you.

Speaker 1 It really can because like you have a child and it's going to be difficult. But if this woman is as crazy as he thinks, and like this kid needs someone and he has to see it that way.

Speaker 1 But you're going to have to be patient with him. And it's a tough situation he's in.

Speaker 1 I, you know, and he's going to need people like you to believe in him that he can be a good father because he's not getting that from anyone else.

Speaker 4 And he does. So what's frustrating is that we have these conversations over and over.
And I know I can see that he wants it, but he just like can't get over the barriers of her.

Speaker 4 And it's, yeah. I mean, I've literally like beat, we've had this, I can't even tell you how many hundreds of hours of conversations we've had about the situation.

Speaker 4 It's just kind of getting him over that hump. I think we don't know how to get him there.

Speaker 1 Does your husband talk to him him much about this stuff because i really think like man to man

Speaker 1 he needs a little bit of like you know he needs to get kind of called out and get a little pep talk about like hey man to man you need to step up and be someone i know you're capable of being because like you're better than this and and a little like you need to take care of your people you need to take care of your family this kid is your family do not abandon your family and like adversity comes in all different forms right now you and your husband have this sounds like great nucleus.

Speaker 1 I don't, you know, listen, I'm not trying, like,

Speaker 1 adversity comes to all of us, right? And you're, you know, and your husband has to paint this picture. Like, listen, this is how adversity is coming to your doorstep, but you still have to show up.

Speaker 1 And adversity is going to come to your guys's doorstep. I don't know in what way, but then you guys are going to have to step up and show up, you know?

Speaker 1 And that's, that's what being, you know, a parent, an adult, you know, a good, you know, and, and, and he just needs you two to believe in him.

Speaker 1 But I really think some of this will be more impactful coming from your husband, especially when it comes to like, you need to step up for your family.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that is a good idea because I do think a lot of the advice he's getting from his family side is from his sister and his mom.

Speaker 4 And I'm like the third person that he goes to, mostly his sister and I, which up until the child was born, we were very much on the same page.

Speaker 4 And then I don't know what happened, but she kind of split and went the other direction, which is surprising.

Speaker 1 It's not, listen, it's one of those things where like, yeah, I mean, even I'm sure people listening might be able to say,

Speaker 1 you know, it's a messy situation. There's so many nightmare stories when it comes to custody battles.

Speaker 1 And if this, you know, like, you know, yeah, I, I think, so there's just, they're just operating out of fear. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 You know, she's an unpredictable person who has an immense amount of control and power in this situation. And that's scary when unpredictable people have power and control.

Speaker 1 So I get where the reservations are coming from, you know, me too. Whether we understand it, whether we would do the same thing, it's just, it's, it's coming from a place of fear.

Speaker 1 So he just has to see this as an opportunity. He has to see this as the biggest challenge of his life to date.

Speaker 1 And a challenge that, like, again, you know, whatever frustrations that this person brings in his life, he, he has a chance to like

Speaker 1 have an impact. on someone's life in a meaningful way.
And

Speaker 4 very often we don't get to do that, you know, and parenting is one, is an opportunity for all of us yeah i do agree that i think it would be helpful for my husband to have a really good one-on-one conversation i don't think that that's actually happened up until this point he has been involved in like

Speaker 4 a more of a group conversation but hasn't had like that one-on-one time with him and i think as you know as a parent my my my husband is less patient with the situation um because he sees like how

Speaker 4 he'll like say one thing and then not follow through with it. Like he, he acts like he wants it, but doesn't actually.

Speaker 1 He needs to be patient and he needs to like also challenge his friend, but there, there needs to be a level of patience. Listen, like you guys, clearly he's disconnected from this kid.

Speaker 1 He's never been a dad. Like you said, he hasn't met this child.
The bond isn't there. You know, he didn't like get to nest with his, you know, pregnant.

Speaker 1 partner at the time in which he, you know, like, which even then, you know, like even dads, I remember when Ali was pregnant with River, it's like, there's a different bond that moms have, you know, when you meet.

Speaker 1 So he doesn't have that, right? You guys have this because you're bonding and connecting with your family.

Speaker 1 You've seen, you know, you're, you're just assuming how he's going to feel once he meets his kid. And so he needs to be patient, but it could just sit and patient and challenge him.

Speaker 1 And it's like, it's more like you got to, he's, he's got to believe in his friend because, you know, his mom and his sister are just feeding him with fear.

Speaker 1 It's just like, I don't know, man, she can make the rest of your life, the next 18, your next 20 years are just going to be miserable. And she's going to try to take your money and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1 And like,

Speaker 4 yeah, that's good advice. Yep.
And I do have another question. So

Speaker 4 he's kind of at a crossroads now where the next step is to establish legal paternity. She won't willingly do it.
And he has, he has said and acknowledged that is what I need to do.

Speaker 4 It's been five months and there hasn't, he hasn't done that yet. But what if then he gets to the point where he makes that decision? It is determined that he's the father.

Speaker 4 And then he ultimately decides I don't want to be be involved, which is a strong possibility.

Speaker 1 What are you asking me?

Speaker 4 Like, how, like, what I struggle with is like being okay with that, I guess.

Speaker 1 And okay, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 What are you worried about? Are you worried about pushing this guy to do the thing that you want him to do? And he decides to back out. And then now he's like.

Speaker 4 No, I'm worried about him just ultimately deciding like, no, I don't want to be involved. And like, are we okay with that as his friend of him just like not being involved in the child's life?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Listen, yeah, I don't think you abandon this guy.
It is a unique situation. You can always, you can feel how you feel about it.
He's going to have to live with this, you know, he will.

Speaker 1 And the, and the point you're going to make over the short term is that like, listen, like, this is something you either going to like end up being really proud of yourself and it's going to be a life accomplishment 10, 15, 20 years from now when you realize you stepped up in a, and, and again, like maybe the most meaningful way of your life, or you're in 20, 15, 20 years from now, you're going to have a ton of regret.

Speaker 1 You know, and you don't know why and in what manner and way that's going to manifest. Does this kid reach out to his absent father and

Speaker 1 say, why weren't you there for me? Why'd you leave me alone with this woman?

Speaker 1 Or is he going to wish, you know, or is he just going to have nightmares about his son?

Speaker 1 You know, like, I don't know, maybe he keeps chasing the wrong women and he ends up, you know, not being a father and the way he planned. I don't know.

Speaker 1 And then I just, he, it's like, that's not your, you know, he will have to pay whatever consequences. It's not your job to like punish him by like alienating him.

Speaker 1 You don't have to love what he's doing, but like, it's, he hasn't turned into a bad guy. It's not like he's magically unsafe around your kids or he's doing low character things.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, we don't, we wouldn't do what he's doing. We don't agree with it, but you can still empathize with the situation he's in and you don't have to praise him for it.

Speaker 1 You don't have to pretend that you're okay with it. I don't think it has to define your friendship going forward if ultimately he doesn't man up.
He'll have to live with those consequences.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's really helpful. We've

Speaker 4 just because we don't have any, there isn't anybody else that's pushing him in that direction, we just didn't want it to seem like to him that it was coming across that we were okay with the situation.

Speaker 4 Now, mind you, I think he it's pretty clear he knows where we stand on it, especially being parents.

Speaker 1 But I think I just want to, I want to,

Speaker 1 I want the big message I want to get across to you is that if you're going to be successful in convincing him to do what you think he should do, it's not going to come from a place of you guys being his parent and being disappointed in him and letting him know that you don't agree with it.

Speaker 1 Like at the end of the day, this is, you know what I'm saying? Like, he already knows that you don't agree with it.

Speaker 4 Like, spin it into more positives.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, it's like

Speaker 1 if you threaten to not talk to him anymore, he's just going to get and victimize himself again. You know what I'm saying? He's going to put himself as a victim.
You got to make him feel empowered.

Speaker 1 You got to make him feel like this is the right thing to do, that this is a chance to fulfill his destiny as like a person who like very few people nowadays, like, yeah, like most people are emotionally weak, you know, people who don't step up to challenges, who victimize themselves and are kind of losers.

Speaker 1 And he has a chance to be a winner here. He has a chance to be a winner and step up in ways that most people wouldn't step up.
And it's going to be hard. It's going to be a battle.

Speaker 1 and it's not going to be fun, especially early on. But the reward is so great at the end of like this fact that he was, you know, and he has to see that.

Speaker 1 He is not going to make this decision because his friends are disappointed in him. You know what I'm saying? That's not why he's going to do this.

Speaker 1 So it really doesn't matter. Like, you don't, you know, he has so much.
Yeah, you're thinking about, well, how do we make him feel shame if he doesn't do what we want to do?

Speaker 1 I would, that's just a waste of your energy.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And no, it's not that, I think what it, it's not that we want him to feel shame at all.
I think it's that we just see so much potential in him. Sure.
Like he's a really solid human.

Speaker 4 He's a great friend. He's got a great job.
He, you know, he's just got so a great family. He's got so much going for him.
And he doesn't see what we see in him.

Speaker 4 Like he lacks confidence and he's super good looking. Like girls just like falling on him.

Speaker 1 Listen, if he had, if he had the right woman in his life. who was saying, hey, we're going to do this together, he would.
But he, you know, he's alone and he doesn't have the right, you know.

Speaker 1 And listen, I, I, I don't know what I would do 10 years ago if I was like single as fuck and going at a bunch of dates and dating women my age or older and younger and just being like, I don't fucking know at this point, you know, like, I, you know, we are in a, in a, in an emotionally healthy situation and we have a support system that he doesn't have.

Speaker 1 So you, you have to give him some empathy. You just have to like really make him believe in himself and see the opportunity here.

Speaker 4 So how do you, how do you, because that is like one of our biggest issues or his, well, not ours, his, is that he lacks confidence. So I'm consistently like in our conversations guiding him.

Speaker 4 Like, hey, you have, you, so much going for you. Like, how do I kind of,

Speaker 4 at the end of the day, I can only do so much. And like he is in therapy.

Speaker 4 His therapists, in my opinion, I have shared with him like he, he does need a new therapist, but how do I continue, just continue doing what I'm doing?

Speaker 1 Any other advice advice to honestly, yeah, his confidence is really he can only do so much, you know, like a lot of his confidence probably comes from his childhood.

Speaker 1 You know, I'd hope his mom made him believe in himself. You can only do so much, but keep doing what you're doing.
Um, and you're, and again, Slowburn.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Uh, your husband as well, but yeah, you're, you can only do so much.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's, um, that's what I figured you would say.

Speaker 1 He's only 35, you know, listen, the good news is as a guy, you know, like

Speaker 1 time's a little more gracious and forgiving with men who figure their shit out later in life. So maybe there's still hope, but like, again, just, yeah, just keep helping him believe in himself.

Speaker 1 That's all you can do.

Speaker 5 Okay. All right.

Speaker 6 All right.

Speaker 4 Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it.
That is really helpful. I'll have my husband talk to him.
I think that, you know, could be a great next step.

Speaker 4 And just overall, I think not even, I don't think it's like vocally that we

Speaker 4 are negative about it, but I think we could, when we do have conversations, just like spend it as more of an opportunity.

Speaker 4 So he starts to change his mindset around it being less of a burden and like an issue.

Speaker 1 He's got to think forward 10, 15, 20 years about how he thinks he's going to think about himself then, depending on what he does today.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 does he really think he's going to regret stepping up, you know, no matter all the what is sure to be a bunch of shitty moments and challenges and adversity dealing with this person.

Speaker 1 But at the end of it, he has someone who he helped raise and was a meaningful presence in this person's life and really helped save them.

Speaker 1 Or is he going to be the person who, you know, 15, 20 years ago chickened out and played the victim and didn't own up to the fact that like he was a consenting adult in a pivotal moment of his life.

Speaker 1 And instead of stepping up, he took the easy way out. And as a result, doesn't have a relationship with someone he's the father of.

Speaker 4 And I can definitely tell it weighs on him. Like it's a heavy thing.

Speaker 1 I absolutely know in 10 10 years he'll have regret like it's something he thinks about regularly it's just a matter of getting don't tell him what he's you know just keep asking just paint the picture you know

Speaker 5 positive yeah okay

Speaker 1 yep all right i'll take it take care thanks nick all right

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 5 Good. My name is Lindsay.
I'm 28 and I was wondering, should I tell my friend that her soon-to-be ex-husband used to be my therapist?

Speaker 1 How long have you been friends with this person?

Speaker 5 So I've known her. Let's call her Sarah.
I've known Sarah about three years. We work.
We're both fitness instructors at the same studio.

Speaker 5 So we've known each other in passing if our classes are at the same time, but I haven't been. friends, friends with her until very recently.

Speaker 5 Just a few weeks ago, we started watching Bachelor in Paradise together every week.

Speaker 5 And that's really the first time that I've ever hung out with her outside of work, but I've followed her on Instagram the whole time I've known her. So I knew that she got married in 2023.

Speaker 5 And that's actually how I knew that her husband was a therapist. She posted about it that he was beginning his practice.
And if you want a new therapist, here's the link.

Speaker 5 And I was like, you know what? I could use a new therapist.

Speaker 1 So wait, wait.

Speaker 1 So she referred. indirectly referred you to her husband?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 And so that's what makes it extra weird is not only did her husband at the time, not only was he my therapist, but I I knew going into it that he was her husband, which always felt a little bit weird.

Speaker 1 And you didn't

Speaker 1 tell her because why? You just didn't want anyone to know you were in therapy?

Speaker 5 Partly that, yeah, I didn't want to really talk about it. It was, I mean, a really, really tough time for me for so many reasons.
And so I didn't really want to just be like, oh, yeah, therapy.

Speaker 5 But also because I didn't know her very well. We weren't very close.
So I thought it would be a little bit odd.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 1 And he's no longer your therapist? Like, he sucked or what?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I just didn't like his therapy style. It wasn't what I needed at the time.
So he was my therapist for about six months. Okay.
And then in January,

Speaker 1 I took

Speaker 5 mid-30s, mid-late 30s.

Speaker 5 Yeah. In January.

Speaker 1 And they were married for less than two years, huh?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 1 Do you know the tea?

Speaker 5 Yeah. So I got the tea last week.

Speaker 1 From her. And from her.

Speaker 5 Yeah. When we were watching Bachelor Bachelor in Paradise before we started the episode, it's me, her, and a couple of her best friends.
And so her friends already knew.

Speaker 5 But essentially, the T is he has borderline personality disorder and was just very extreme, very controlling, very troubled, had substance abuse issues, put on a pretty face when he was outside the house, but then he would come home to her and kind of just be nasty.

Speaker 5 And she had had enough is essentially the tea.

Speaker 1 And he's a therapist, well,

Speaker 5 yeah, yeah. That's the thing is I'm kind of shook because I never knew.

Speaker 5 Like, you know, I only knew him in a very professional manner, and we never talked about his personal life, obviously, because he was my therapist.

Speaker 1 I'm assuming this is a friendship that early on you value and that you want to maintain.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. I've always really kind of wanted to be friends with her, but it's always kind of scary to reach out to someone and be like, hey, you seem really cool.
We should hang out.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I

Speaker 5 was also mid-late 30s.

Speaker 1 You do absolutely need to tell her. 100%.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Ah, okay. Then how?

Speaker 1 Convince me.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, clearly this is like you were hoping I'd say something different. Just for fun, the part of your brain that's clearly too scared to tell her,

Speaker 1 forgetting about your fear, set your fears aside. Give me the

Speaker 1 unemotional argument of why you think it would be better not to tell her.

Speaker 5 Unemotional argument. I have no unemotional argument.
Okay, well, good. Okay.
So I guess

Speaker 5 your point is being made, Nick. I think really I just am wondering if there's a point,

Speaker 5 just because if

Speaker 5 she, and that's part of the thing.

Speaker 1 She definitely, to answer your question, if like she actually, she absolutely, this could, this could end your friendship. Like, yeah, it just could, you know, totally get where you're like your best.

Speaker 1 You just have to be honest

Speaker 1 and hope that she receives it at a time and a place where she can get past the emotional trigger and what is going to initially feel like a kind of a violation, right?

Speaker 1 I'm completely disconnected from the story. And when, you know, it took a, took you about three minutes for you to like paint the picture of the story.
And then like the first minute, I was like,

Speaker 1 it seems kind of fucked up. Like, why didn't, how could she not tell her? And then it's kind of like, okay, I don't know, like therapy, there's a level of prop, you know, okay, I get it.

Speaker 1 She just didn't want, you know, she had shit going on. She didn't really know this girl.

Speaker 1 And like, there's some awkwardness, but like every day every put it this way like you should have told her before she confided in you about the tea

Speaker 1 right because every instant that this woman opens up to you and trusts you with something that she's not necessarily trusting with other people and and you have something that you are not sharing with her that you know she would like to something that personally involves her like her divorce has nothing to do with you it feels like a violation and that is just going to, when we meet people in adult life, ultimately, whether it's a romantic relationship or a friendship, and I'm especially as a woman, you can appreciate this as much as anyone.

Speaker 1 Like your first thought is, is this person safe for me to be around?

Speaker 5 Yeah. And to really make that decision, you need to have all the information.
And she doesn't have all the information.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah. Now you kind of, it's a little snake in the grassy.
It's just like you're feeding her. She's feeding you information.
You're holding her information back.

Speaker 1 It's.

Speaker 5 So what should I do then? Cause that's, and I was thinking, so she, she gave me the tea. It was last week.
So it wasn't that long ago.

Speaker 5 We were with her friends and they were talking about one of his friends was coming to get his stuff from her garage. And so it came up.

Speaker 5 And just like enough like little things were dropped here and there that I was like, I, I'm just. I'm a nosy bitch.

Speaker 5 And I was trying not to let it get the best of me, but enough was being dropped that it got the best of me. And I was like, okay.

Speaker 5 So I asked her, like, when we were there with her friends, if she like felt comfortable talking about it, and I'm like, you don't have to, but like, what, what happened? Like, I'm really curious.

Speaker 5 And so she like opened up me like with her friends there who already knew. And like, I guess, are you saying maybe that would have been a good moment or before then?

Speaker 5 I've never really been with this woman one-on-one. It's always been either at the studio or around her friends.

Speaker 1 Listen,

Speaker 1 you should have told her.

Speaker 1 I don't know the dynamic of your friendship, but like in my world, I would have, as soon as you like, oh, like, yeah, I'm actually like, your husband's my therapist.

Speaker 1 Thanks to the reference is like a casual. But at the same time, I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes.
I don't know how sensitive therapy was for you in that moment.

Speaker 1 Understand that not everyone's comfortable sharing who their therapist is. You know, it's like, my therapist's name is Darlene, you know, like whatever.

Speaker 1 I was, my, my therapist, I was referred to by a friend who's now wife has the same therapist. And we don't really talk about it.

Speaker 1 So I understand there's a level of sensitivity about, like, we go to the same person for, like, I don't know. I, I get where you're coming from.
I don't know if she will. Hopefully, she will.

Speaker 1 Thank God you personally hate him as your therapist. Like, you have that going for you.
You're like, I did, I just,

Speaker 1 um,

Speaker 1 but you're gonna have to get it out fairly quickly.

Speaker 5 Uh-huh. Okay.

Speaker 5 Ah,

Speaker 1 you know, and you're gonna have to acknowledge that, like, I need to tell you something I had my reasons I handled it poorly but like I I really value this your friendship and I you know especially in adulthood and here's why and and I but I wanted to tell you this is not an excuse I didn't know how to tell you I should have told you beforehand and my reasons for not telling you sooner is because like I was trying to figure it out but I was that this was wrong and I

Speaker 1 listen like I value I'm telling you because I value trust and I want people to be trustworthy in my relationship and I want you to feel like I'm a friend that you can trust.

Speaker 1 And I don't, I don't feel like I win behind. And I think you just kind of get it out very vulnerably without trying to make excuses.

Speaker 1 You really don't like, and she has every right to be as mad as she wants to be. That's the important thing is like, if she gets super mad, you just have to let her be mad.

Speaker 1 That's not at the point where you're like, but, but I had the right to feel this way. You know, she

Speaker 1 might need some time to like, take a break from you. I don't know.
Maybe she like it. She might be like, girl, at least we both hate him.
I don't know. Like it really could go either way.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like you have to allow her to be, she has the right.
She's going through a divorce. That's obviously very vulnerable.

Speaker 1 It sounds like her ex, you know, if he is a therapist and a little toxic, I'm sure on some ways he's made, you know, he's fucked with her emotions. Take full responsibility, you know.

Speaker 1 And just, I don't know, you're going to have to let it play out.

Speaker 1 But you have to tell her.

Speaker 5 You have to to tell her, yeah, yeah, and the sooner I do it, the better.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think, yeah, I think my only redeeming grace here that might make it okay is last week, her opening up about like why she's getting divorced is really the first time that we like kind of crossed that line into like a vulnerable friendship.

Speaker 5 Before last week, like we literally were just co-workers who had started watching reality TV together, and so I'm hoping that because that door was like just barely opened, that it's still an okay time to, yeah, and and i think you just say listen it feels weird and i feel like i should have just told you but at the time i just was like very nervous about therapy i didn't really know where to get a therapist that's a very common

Speaker 1 you know

Speaker 1 thing she provided a link because i'm sure she'll remember and like yeah that that that happened at a time where i honestly just was like very nervous about therapy and so no i wasn't like I wasn't trying to like advertise I was in therapy, even though like it was your husband at the time and, you know,

Speaker 1 doctor patient kind of thing. So I just kind of set that aside.

Speaker 1 But now that we've gotten closer and it, you know, and I don't work with him anymore, I just, but like, I felt like I should tell you because I did, I didn't want to keep that from you.

Speaker 1 And I don't like, I want friendships in my life where like, you know, there's, we can, there's a level of trust. And I'm really sorry if I violated that trust.

Speaker 1 I, I don't think I handled it as best as I could, but this is me trying to do that. And I think, you know, it's you say something like that.

Speaker 1 Like what you don't want to do is be like, well, this is why I said this and this is why I was justified for saying this and this is why I'm not wrong. Like you were wrong and that's fine and maybe

Speaker 1 well-intentioned and maybe they're, you know, you just have to hope that she is in a position to empathize with the position you were in and then offer you grace, knowing that like the person she got to know, well, like.

Speaker 1 The mistake you made is, I guarantee you, she's made a version of this mistake at some point in her life.

Speaker 1 The question is, is she in a position to see that and to recognize that and offer you the grace that you're hoping to get from her?

Speaker 5 I'm scared.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But that is. I've gotten myself in a predicament here.

Speaker 1 That's life. But like what you don't want to do is like let your fears justify your choices because that's when you get into territory of just like shitty behavior.

Speaker 1 that you're able to justify because you don't want to be inconvenienced by some confrontation or the fear that you could lose someone, but you are establishing relationships based off of like deceit and lies and you wouldn't appreciate being in that position and you want to feel comfortable with the people you surround yourself with and you know what it's like, I am sure, to have made friends and feel like they were kind of being shady and a little misleading and having to be like, I don't know if I should fuck with this person.

Speaker 1 And I really used to fuck with this person, but like, I don't know.

Speaker 5 They're just kind of, they always have excuses as why they can't just be up front yeah no that makes sense okay then i need i need your advice then on like how i should tell her like should i be like hey let's get coffee like so we're not watching bachelor in paradise this week because she had a conflict so that buys me some time um until i see her again

Speaker 1 i wouldn't do it that night i wouldn't do it around her other friends yeah have you have you had do you guys have you guys gotten lunch would that be a first if you asked her out for lunch it would be a first and again i'm not making excuses for myself, but that's part of the reason I haven't told her.

Speaker 5 I've never been alone with this woman, really. It's always been either at work around clients or with her friends.
And so this, this would be a first.

Speaker 5 But I don't think it would be weird if I asked her to get coffee. I don't think she'd be like, whoa, like coming on too.

Speaker 1 No, ask her, you know, be like, hey, there's something I wanted to.

Speaker 1 I always hate the load. It looks like someone wanted to talk to you about.

Speaker 5 Right. Exactly.
Like, we need to talk. We need to talk.

Speaker 1 Don't get mad.

Speaker 5 Don't get scared. I don't want to freak her out, you know? Like,

Speaker 1 hey, do you like, do you want to get her coffee sometime? I wanted to run something by you.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
And I could just ask her, like, hey, since we're not watching Bacher in Paradise this week, like, can we just hang out and do something else instead so I can still see you?

Speaker 1 Ah. I would maybe just say the run something by you.
It's going to catch her off guard, but

Speaker 1 it won't freak her out because running something by you sounds like you're going to her for advice.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 If you say so, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know if that's the best way.

Speaker 5 I could be like, well, what are you running by me? Like, I want to know right now.

Speaker 1 I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how nosy she is about that stuff.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Ah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I just say, you know, you try to get together with her. Or call her FaceTime her.
I don't know. Would you, have you ever, have you called her ever?

Speaker 5 Have you FaceTime her? No. No, that's the thing.
Like we really, this friendship is brand new, but I don't want to ruin it like right from the jump.

Speaker 5 And it sounds like maybe I am if I don't change something quickly.

Speaker 1 Listen, you don't know this girl. It's like a new relationship.
You just have to come clean. Listen, she also does, like, this is also,

Speaker 1 think of it in dating terms too, right? Understand that this is an exciting person you got to meet. You'd some good chemistry early on.
There's some good compatibility.

Speaker 1 You have a mutual interest in Bachelor in Paradise. This friend has a lot of potential, just like a potential romantic partner does, right?

Speaker 1 And right now you're seeing it through rose-colored glasses.

Speaker 1 You're a little vulnerable about some baggage you're bringing into this relationship.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like, will they accept me because of this baggage I had that had really nothing to do with them, but like definitely could affect their opinion of me, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 But how people handle disappointment, how they handle adversity says a lot about like their ability to like be a part of your life and in a relationship with you at some kind in the future.

Speaker 1 And so you know that while you know, you kind of fucked up and maybe didn't handle it in the past, like this is not a malicious thing.

Speaker 1 This is definitely, there's a little bit of like, like, what a coincidence. What a like creative like, oh my God, like it just kind of happened this way.

Speaker 1 I definitely wasn't expecting to be this woman's friend. Turns out, like, I mean, listen, ex-wives and mistresses have become best friends.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 So, like, you guys, there's a chance that this really is just a small bump in the road. I don't know this person, you know?

Speaker 1 But if this, if this girl is just completely unwilling to see your point of view at all, then, you know, maybe it's just also not the friendship that you thought it would be, you know, because any friendship and relationship, it requires empathy and grace and understanding and vulnerability and things like that.

Speaker 1 And if she hears you out, it does make a lot of sense, you know,

Speaker 1 there's going to be a little bit of like, you know, I would just say, listen, when you were telling, I felt wrong hearing you open up about your ex.

Speaker 1 I only know him in a professional capacity, but I also didn't want to bring it up because I didn't want to bombard you with the truth around your friends.

Speaker 1 And I just didn't know how you would feel about it. That's not an excuse.
It just was my reasoning. And I just don't know you well enough to know how I should have delivered that information.

Speaker 1 And so you just say, like, I, you know, vulnerably, like, I, I,

Speaker 1 I, like, I don't, you can say this sounds corny, but like an adult, like, I've really enjoyed becoming friends with you and I value this friendship. And I, I want to be upfront and honest with you.

Speaker 1 And I, I, if I want to come to you and just tell you and if you I'd love to hear how you know like just tell me how you feel I you have a right to be upset and if you you know and going forward, I hope that we're never in a position like this again, but

Speaker 1 imagine if we I do want to be upfront with my friends and I want I want them to feel like I'm someone who

Speaker 1 just is as transparent as I possibly can be and I want to be transparent with you.

Speaker 5 Yeah. No, that that all makes sense.
And like like I said, like I like I, I don't know her super well either, but from what I know about her, I feel like she would take it okay. But you're right.

Speaker 5 If she doesn't, then she has that right as well. Um, I do think it helps that it's been over six months since he was my therapist.
I think that like distance helps. And the fact that I

Speaker 1 stopped that's not really for you to decide, you know?

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, that's true. That's true.

Speaker 1 If she doesn't think it helps, yeah, you're just, you're wasting your energy trying to like

Speaker 1 decide for her how she, like, what she's going to like you don't you have no idea yeah you're right i'm just trying to mentally prepare myself oh my gosh i'm so you became friends with her how recently um really in the past few weeks okay i think you're gonna be okay i mean again this all makes sense it makes sense why you didn't tell an acquaintance that you're like her therapist was her ex-husband because like ultimately like you're not out there advertising that you're in therapy but now that you've become friends with her it just feels like something like friend to friend.

Speaker 1 Like you wanted her to know because obviously she opened up to you and you just didn't know how to handle it in the moment when you were around a group of people.

Speaker 1 But like, I, I don't want, I always want my friends to feel like I, I, you know, I don't keep things from them that are their business, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I feel like this is your business as much as mine now that we're friends and you're opening up to me about this guy.

Speaker 1 And I just, I, you know, and so I really think you, I think that's why you reaching out go like will fit that narrative of why you didn't tell her along the friends because this is you making sure you guys are alone because I just didn't I didn't want to I didn't know if you wanted me to tell you that way.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 5 no, that that completely makes sense. And I mean, I guess like worst case scenario, she's like, screw you.
And then when I went into her at the studio, it'll be awkward.

Speaker 1 Like I don't think she's going to say screw you. I mean, that, that would based on what you're saying.

Speaker 5 She doesn't seem like that kind of person.

Speaker 1 Also, just based on what you're telling me, it doesn't seem to justify a screw you. Like, I get your point of view, right?

Speaker 1 This is definitely like, I don't know what you could have done differently, but I get why she might feel a little weird about this.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
And the longer I go without telling her, the worse it is.

Speaker 1 It's just like right now, right? She, this is a woman who probably has trust issues. Anyone going through a divorce has some kind of trust issues or some kind of emotional trauma.

Speaker 1 There's a very vulnerable like...

Speaker 1 Yeah, when shit happens to you, it's hard not to get paranoid about it repeating itself, right?

Speaker 1 Like when you go through through a breakup or a divorce, there's always the like, how did I not see this coming? You know, they presented one way, now they're a different person.

Speaker 1 So like her radar for that type of behavior is probably more heightened now. So I'm just coming from that perspective, not the like, you fucked up and how could you have done this?

Speaker 1 And like, I just, I can't, I can't reason with your logic. I'm not there.
Like everything you've said makes a ton of sense on why you got to this point.

Speaker 1 But what really matters going forward is, again, don't allow those excuses to get you into the territory of now six months go by. You've been friends with this chick for six months.

Speaker 1 You still haven't told her. You're still in kind of that gray area of like, you know what? I kind of get it.
She didn't really know what to say. She told me pretty fast.

Speaker 1 And then when you sit down and you emphasize honesty and communication and wanting to be upfront and having that difficult conversation with her.

Speaker 1 If she is a reasonable person, despite going through this very vulnerable state, I'm assuming she will see that rather than being the person who's just like very defensive, very argumentative, trying to justify everything.

Speaker 1 You know, that to me, that matters more because that will be more telling. You know, it's like when you date someone, again, use that same analogy.

Speaker 1 If you were, you just, people will give you certain cues about like how they are handling disappointment and how people handle disappointment is a huge indicator on how they'll be in a relationship, whether it's romantic, whether it's a friendship.

Speaker 1 And while this is adversity that you guys are facing, you have an opportunity to give her some indications that like

Speaker 1 trust matters to you.

Speaker 1 healthy communication matters to you.

Speaker 1 You have a willingness and an ability to like have confrontation and just be an adult and and and be vulnerable and acknowledge that you you made some mistakes and you want to correct them those are those are a bunch of green flags and you have to be willing to show those green flags knowing that like you don't know this person well enough to predict how they're going to handle this information and you are afraid that she won't handle it well and you are are afraid that you're going to lose this very short, brief, but like very nice relationship you've been able to cultivate.

Speaker 5 Yeah. No, that that all makes sense.

Speaker 5 That makes sense. Ah, I'm scared.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 5 So I suppose

Speaker 5 yeah, me too.

Speaker 5 Okay. So next step then would be to reach out to her and just ask her either to FaceTime or get coffee or something because I want to run something by her.

Speaker 5 And then hopefully.

Speaker 1 Well, I would say, I would say, hey, are you free for coffee whenever? And maybe maybe not even the run something by. Maybe she's like, yeah, great.

Speaker 1 If she's just like, if she's like, oh, I'm kind of busy, blah, blah, blah. Like, let's get together.
I'm not free until next, you know, Monday night or whenever.

Speaker 5 I don't know. We always watch it on Tuesdays, a day late on Hulu.

Speaker 1 Anyway, if she's not

Speaker 1 available till next Tuesday, then I would say, well, there's something I just wanted to run by you.

Speaker 1 Do you have time for like a quick call or a FaceTime?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Kind of hold off on that sense of urgency or something unless she says and even then you're creating energy that you run around something by her.

Speaker 1 So you're not being like, hey, this is something I want to tell, this is something I want to run by you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because that's what I was wondering. If I just asked her like, hey, do you want to get coffee or something?

Speaker 5 And I, and just like left it at that, would that be any level of like deceitful or anything, asking her to get coffee when I know that the reason is I want to speak with her about this?

Speaker 5 But she's no, because you do.

Speaker 1 This is a conversation that's better to have in person.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 I mean, again, there's no really, I mean, he was your therapist. You didn't have, you know what I'm saying? It's not, you didn't have a secret relationship.

Speaker 1 This is a professional relationship that like includes a level of privacy and vulnerability.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't know if her ex-husband was an oncologist and maybe he was your doctor because you had a cancer scare of some kind and maybe you just didn't want the world to know that, like, you would have the right to like keep that a secret, you know?

Speaker 1 Like.

Speaker 1 I don't think you should lean on that or harp on that, but I just say, you know, like, listen, it happen,

Speaker 1 This has all happened when, like, I was, I needed therapy.

Speaker 1 I wasn't on, and maybe, I don't know if you're comfortable talking about why you needed therapy now with her, that you can open, like you can offer that as like a, almost like, you know, she shared something with you.

Speaker 1 Now you're, you're going to share something with her that's vulnerable and you hope that she accepts whatever.

Speaker 1 But it has happened at a time where you're just like, I just didn't like think of going up to this random girl who was more of an acquaintance being like, just, you know, your husband.

Speaker 1 You could have, but I just didn't know. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I was very private about my therapy at the time it didn't work out he's not my therapist anymore um happy to like whatever you want to know about that i'll tell you but like and then we became friends and i just kind of froze and i didn't really know what to say but i really like you as a friend and and i i don't want anyone let alone my friends to feel like I keep things from them.

Speaker 1 And so I didn't tell you last week because we were around betty sue and diane and i just wasn't sure how you would receive this or if they cared and i just i didn't want to assume so i hope this is the i hope this comes across as the most mature way of handling this because that's what i'm trying to do but i i i and if whatever questions you have and if i i don't know if this i don't even know how you're going to feel about it but like i just i want you to know that like I just wanted to tell you.

Speaker 1 And however you want to feel about it, I'm how, you know, you have the right to, I get it, yeah, yeah, just being so open and vulnerable,

Speaker 1 yeah, that's your best approach. If she, she, I honestly think she, it'll be fine, I really do, okay, okay, yeah,

Speaker 5 yeah, she's a very like level-headed, um, person, and so I do, yeah, and like she might like just love that you fired them, so like, there's that, like, she probably spawned over that, truly.

Speaker 1 I mean, it just, you know, she just

Speaker 1 that her first thought, her her first question will be like, if, if you don't get it out in time for her to ask, her first question will be like, is he still your therapist? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's gonna, that's gonna be her first thought.

Speaker 5 Lead with that.

Speaker 1 He used to be my therapist. I fired him a long time ago.

Speaker 1 I would honestly lead with, that's how I would deliver it. Your husband used to be my therapist.
I fired him a long time ago when we weren't friends.

Speaker 1 And I just didn't like, I was very private about my therapy and just very like, honestly, like insecure about just getting therapy in general. I don't know if that.

Speaker 1 And so I didn't really want to tell anyone. And then we became friends.
And I, I feel like you should know that.

Speaker 1 And I hope that how I'm delivering this doesn't come across as misleading. And I didn't tell you when we were with the girls last time because I just didn't know if that would me be bombarding you.

Speaker 1 And I didn't know you well enough to know how you want this information. How do you want you to receive this information? So this is my best attempt at trying to do it the right way.

Speaker 5 Yeah, best attempt. Yeah, for sure.
Oh, my goodness. Okay.
I'm stressing. I'm stressing.

Speaker 1 It's going to be okay. Thank you.

Speaker 5 It'll be okay. This is, this is really helpful.
Yeah. Cause I was like, I needed someone.
That's why I wrote in because I was like, I need someone who doesn't know anyone involved

Speaker 5 to kind of just see.

Speaker 1 Who have you run this by? And have they given you anything different?

Speaker 5 Literally, I've only run it by two of my friends. One of them, she was like, I think you should tell her, but I just don't have any idea how you could possibly approach that conversation.

Speaker 5 And then the other one was like, if she's never going to find out, then maybe it doesn't matter. So I kind of got conflicting opinions.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think there's way more to be gained for the long term by telling her. Yeah.
And if this is,

Speaker 5 I'm never going to be able to stop thinking about it. It's always going to be in the back of my mind.
And I'm not a very good liar.

Speaker 5 And so I feel like when I have something to hide, I act a little bit weird. And I think if I held it in for too long, she would kind of start to pick up.

Speaker 1 Well, then it's just not really the front.

Speaker 1 I mean, again, I don't know why you're choosing your friendships in adult life, but it's just like, it's a tainted relationship that to begin with, that's more based off of your mutual interest in a TV show rather than I found someone.

Speaker 1 in my adult life that I can build a meaningful relationship with that can maybe grow into like, I don't know, someone I go to for emotional support, someone who's really in my very small, trusted inner circle of friends.

Speaker 1 I mean, she might not, this person might not get there to begin with, but if you're looking for those type of people in your life, that's how you have to start these relationships.

Speaker 1 And if you're looking for like acquaintances that like are fun to hang out with in seasons of your life, then that, then you take a different approach.

Speaker 1 But like, I think too many people treat what they call friendships as basically like,

Speaker 1 you know, temporary,

Speaker 5 they're like friendship situationships, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, and I've had those, but this, yeah, I mean, she's really a wonderful woman, and like I said, I've, you know, we've been, I guess, professional acquaintances for a few years, and I've always really looked up to her.

Speaker 5 Um, and so now that I have a chance to actually be her friend, I don't want to screw that up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she really

Speaker 5 does seem like an amazing person.

Speaker 1 She'll probably respect how you handled it, it's not difficult to do.

Speaker 5 And knowing that it sounds like it's not past saving.

Speaker 1 And my guess is, if you asked, you know, 10 people, my guess is the advice you'd give get would probably be fairly split down the middle your reasoning makes sense yeah i mean and i'm just more like i think anyone who would give you the advice not to tell her are the type of people who don't think about what it takes to make long-lasting friendships or they're not that interested in having them um and they're just used to it's not a two-way relationship it's just more of a

Speaker 1 yeah And I think if she's the type of friend that you hope and want her to be, she'll be the type of person who will appreciate your honesty.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, I think you're right. And that all makes sense.

Speaker 5 And hearing it all laid out like that,

Speaker 5 it feels pretty clear. Yeah, I definitely need to tell her and I need to tell her sooner rather than later.

Speaker 1 And these other women that were a part of the group, are you friends with them too? Or are they more?

Speaker 5 No, so they're her friends. I've just met them through her.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, that's a little bit of an excuse you have too, which is also really why you didn't tell them is like, I wanted to tell you, I didn't want to tell them about my therapy.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, because I don't know these girls really at all. I met them two weeks ago.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I don't know how she will feel about like, and I guess if you're only really been friends for a couple of weeks, I guess it wouldn't have made sense for you to randomly tell someone.

Speaker 1 You know, you could just be like, I don't, I don't know what your,

Speaker 1 what your expectations about that were, you know, like, I don't know how, you know, I don't think spouses are supposed to like have. It's their hip.

Speaker 5 Exactly. Yeah.
Like at the time, it felt like a little bit of a confidentiality thing, but now, you know, now nothing.

Speaker 1 He's definitely not supposed to tell her, right? That would be a violation. I don't think you're allowed to tell your spouses who your patients are just because they're your spouses.

Speaker 5 But now that he's out of the picture as my therapist and out of the picture as her husband, I'm like, okay, now it makes, yeah, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 Ah, I'm freaking out. Just tell her.
I just, just tell her, be vulnerable.

Speaker 5 I think it'll be fine. I think it'll be fine.

Speaker 1 I really do. Otherwise, you're just

Speaker 1 saving yourself from someone who's just maybe a little messy and a little toxic and a little just maybe not in a position to like, because like this is definitely, this is dramatic, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, hell, people listening to this and be like, oh shit, what a crazy story. It's like, it's dramatic.
And so if she's someone who is drawn to drama, she will use this as drama.

Speaker 1 And if she is someone who is like drama adverse and ultimately like in her adult life, she's learned how to like separate drama from like necess, you know, things she can avoid to like, right?

Speaker 1 That's all maturity.

Speaker 1 And so if she is someone who really is like looking to like work through disappointment and like just get remove drama from her life, you are setting her up in a position to do that.

Speaker 1 She might not take the bait. She might decide to use this as an outlet to release emotion.

Speaker 1 Who knows? Right. But like this will be telling for this friendship about how she handles this information.
Because like ultimately, nothing you did sounds malicious. And there's just maybe

Speaker 1 some miscommunication or just not really like a very unique situation where there weren't defined expectations and boundaries for a situation that usually doesn't present itself.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I don't, I don't even know if when she put the link out, like, you know, she was just like, you know, proud wife moment, like, oh, look, my husband's doing this thing.

Speaker 5 Like, I don't even know if she was actually expecting anyone to even consider seeing her husband as a therapist, you know? Totally.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 Okay. I feel, I'm scared.
I'm scared, but I feel better about this because

Speaker 5 I, yeah, I feel more certain that I know what I need to do and like why I need to do it.

Speaker 1 I understand you're scared, but I think you need to like just remind yourself that this is the right thing to do.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 1 And you will, and things are going to play out how they're going to play out. But the

Speaker 1 real result of how she handles it does not change.

Speaker 1 your decision tree.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I need to stop kind of trying to think of different scenarios that could happen and just go in to like so many people in this position are basing their advice off of the outcome you want, right?

Speaker 1 I want an outcome. So what do I do to get that outcome? Well, I want to save this friendship.
So how do I save this friendship right now?

Speaker 1 But like the outcome you want isn't like how to save this friendship right now.

Speaker 1 It is like how to do the right thing, how to be a friend that is, you know, someone that can show that trust and communication matters to me.

Speaker 1 And how do I build a friendship that actually like has like some real chance of being a meaningful relationship in my life? And based off of those parameters, what should I do?

Speaker 1 Regardless of the immediate reaction or how she might feel in the moment. And I, and if your only goal is to not feel like you're in trouble, then, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 That's what you make your decision on.

Speaker 5 No, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you, by the way, for not making me feel like I'm in trouble.

Speaker 1 It's definitely a super huge coincidence.

Speaker 5 And it's a weird situation. It's, it's, yeah, I was like, I don't even know.
I don't even know, but I feel, yeah, I feel better after this about what I should do.

Speaker 5 Um, and kind of just going into it, knowing that it's the right thing to do, regardless of the outcome really does make me feel better.

Speaker 5 And I think it makes it a lot less likely that I'm going to chicken out because I feel awkward.

Speaker 1 For sure. Okay.

Speaker 5 Okay. Well, thank you.
Oh my goodness. Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Please let us know what, what. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I'll have to send in an update.
And I just also wanted to say I've listened to your show for years and you're, you've helped me through like all sorts of things.

Speaker 5 I've never had to call in before because you've always helped me through everything, but this is just, this is a special one. So, but thank you for your show and thank you for your advice.

Speaker 1 My pleasure. Thank you for saying that.
And I'm glad that the seems helpful.

Speaker 5 It does.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it really does.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, good luck.
Thanks. I really want to know how she handles it.
I really think you're going to be okay. And I honestly think this, this will bring you closer together.

Speaker 5 I hope so.

Speaker 1 He really sucked at his job.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And we can just bond over that.

Speaker 5 He really wasn't that good. I got to be honest.
Sorry.

Speaker 1 Well, it was dealing with his own shit.

Speaker 5 Apparently. Yeah.
Now I know. Apparently the week I fired him is the same week that she was like had it had their first talk about it.
So I'm like, oof, rough week for him. Oof.

Speaker 1 Poor guy. Yeah.
All right.

Speaker 5 Not much sympathy, though. All right.
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Thank you. All right.
Take care.

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Speaker 1 How's it going?

Speaker 6 Pretty good. How are you?

Speaker 1 Good. What's your name?

Speaker 6 My name is Grace. I'm 31 years old, and I'm wondering how I can move on from my ex-girlfriend who held my keys hostage and hid a social media scandal from me.

Speaker 1 You're wondering how you move on?

Speaker 6 Well, it's less about moving on from her and from the relationship and more so about

Speaker 6 the things that were said and done to me and sort of trying to reclaim my story and find solace and validation in my own experience without requiring like answers or confirmation from other people about what I experienced.

Speaker 1 Okay. I kind of get what you're saying, I think, but without maybe speaking in kind of more, I don't know, philosophical ways.
Like, how are you feeling right now about this relationship?

Speaker 1 Like, what is it? Like, what in the simplest way? Like, what are you feeling that you're struggling with? And that's kind of like, all right, because that's what you're trying to do.

Speaker 1 Like, this, this relationship, it ended, things happened, and now it's left you with this icky feeling. And you don't know how to get rid of this icky feeling.

Speaker 1 Is that, am I articulating that back to you? Do you feel it?

Speaker 6 Like, I, yeah, I think so. Um, I think I was doing a pretty good job of

Speaker 6 moving on, so to speak, until I got some information

Speaker 6 about my ex. And I think, yeah, I'm really just, I'm struggling to like find myself again after all of this.

Speaker 1 What's the information?

Speaker 6 The whole social media thing.

Speaker 6 So one of my family members essentially told me that my ex was involved in this big social media blowout a few years ago with my ex's ex-partner at the time calling my let's call my ex Joe.

Speaker 6 So Joe's ex-partner was calling Joe out for being an abusive partner on social media. And I had like just heard about all of this the other day.

Speaker 1 Why are you struggling with that?

Speaker 6 I think because

Speaker 6 I had a different idea about what the relationship was

Speaker 6 and that my ex trusted me and we had this like beautiful trusting bond. And it's one thing for that to end.
And I mean, I'm the one that ended it and I feel very confident about that decision.

Speaker 6 But to hear all of these other things after,

Speaker 6 I think I feel icky because I'm like, oh, so this person was

Speaker 6 abusing other people and

Speaker 6 this has been going on for ages. And then I allowed them into my life and they did it to me and they lied about it.

Speaker 1 And just so I don't know. So when your ex was an alleged abuser or being accused of it or they were like harassing and bullying other people online?

Speaker 6 Right. No.
So my ex was called out online allegedly um for being abusive toward their partner okay a couple years ago yeah a few years ago and okay now okay and so

Speaker 1 your ex got called out by someone online for being is it physically or emotionally abusive emotionally abusive okay and are you saying

Speaker 1 the things that your partner was accused of

Speaker 1 Do you feel like she did that to you and with you in that relationship?

Speaker 6 I do. I think I'm struggling.

Speaker 1 You don't say that you're convinced of that. You're like, you're looking up to the left and you're like, I do.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think, and that's sort of what I'm, what I'm grappling with because I,

Speaker 6 so there's like this dichotomy between like logical and emotional mind. And logically, I, I, I can say that, yes, I do feel that my ex was emotionally abusive.

Speaker 1 And, and, like, and how so, I guess, like, because they were react, I mean, manipulative, reactive or temperamental or yeah, um, a lot of like every day that they call you a worthless piece of shit.

Speaker 6 It was more so

Speaker 6 manipulation, I think, and sort of the, the, the classic, like, you don't really love me, you don't care about me, you treat me like shit.

Speaker 6 When I would, for instance, set a boundary and say, hey, I, I need you to go home. I need you to leave my apartment now.
I need to like go to sleep and get up early for work the next day.

Speaker 6 Um, and then she wouldn't leave. She would stay and then she would follow me downstairs when I would try to get space.
And then like police got involved.

Speaker 6 Like there were just so many things as a result of my boundaries not being respected and me communicating what in a way that I thought was very calm and respectful

Speaker 6 and being met with, you're actually like a narcissist and you're horrible and you treat me like shit. You don't love me.
You don't care about me. Like those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 She called you a narcissist?

Speaker 6 Yeah. Or that I had strong narcissistic tendencies, I think was the exact phrasing.

Speaker 1 But I just feel like your energy is being focused on the wrong thing. Well, one, you broke up with this person.
So like, you got to pat yourself on the back there. And now you're,

Speaker 1 if I'm understanding you correctly, you heard this bit of information that honestly, from how I'm understanding your story, all it really should have done is validate your decision of moving on from this person.

Speaker 1 This person, as you're describing, when you reflected on your relationship, was at best very reactive.

Speaker 1 And when they got triggered, was very cruel and mean and said things that are out of pocket that they probably didn't mean, or they, you know, they were hurt.

Speaker 1 So they tried to hurt you, hurt people, hurt people, things like that. Right.
And eventually you came to a point where it's just like, I can't keep doing this anymore.

Speaker 1 You know, when it first happened, I'm sure you tried to give your partner the benefit of the doubt. You tried to offer her grace.
You tried to work through it with her.

Speaker 1 You tried to calm her down, yada, yada. Like, and again, like, as humans, We all just decide that like we are now therapists and we can diagnose other people.

Speaker 1 And I think there's just a fun, like a lot about abuse is about consistency and there being a pattern.

Speaker 1 You know, it is not about like someone having a bad day and saying things out of pocket that they have to apologize for and then make some meaningful changes in their life or just never replicate that.

Speaker 1 And again, I don't know how much good it's doing by you trying to figure out whether your ex really did

Speaker 1 abuse you or if you really knew who your ex was.

Speaker 1 I honestly feel like you do know who your ex was.

Speaker 1 Again, you know, like you're saying, well, actually, from what I've heard about what she was accused of back in the day, you know, the thing that you're triggered by is that what you heard about your partner, you believe, and you believe because that's a person you dated and got to know.

Speaker 1 So it's, it's almost like counterintuitive that you have now convinced yourself to have these internal thoughts about like, did I really know this person?

Speaker 1 Or I can't, you know, I, you know, whatever thoughts that you're having right now that are not, you know, having the opposite effect, instead of it validating your decision to move on from this person, it's keeping you stuck emotionally and thinking about this person.

Speaker 1 You know, it's funny, I got in a spat with my parents.

Speaker 1 I don't know why I brought that up because I'm random, but

Speaker 1 we were going in circles, couldn't get through to her. And then I finally asked my parents about like, well, what,

Speaker 1 you know, they were talking about their feelings.

Speaker 1 And I was like, okay, fair enough, But what, how, how would you like me to respond so that I can base enough of everything talked about?

Speaker 1 And they didn't know how to answer that question, which may help them saw my point of view.

Speaker 1 Because it was more me, it was, because my point was like, you know, your feelings are valid, you know, but they are just your feelings. And it doesn't mean that you're right.
I feel a certain way.

Speaker 1 You feel a certain way.

Speaker 1 We know about that,

Speaker 1 but once we get past how we feel, what do you want to do with these feelings? I don't know if that's making any sense. And I want you to ask yourself that same question.

Speaker 1 What do you want to do with these new thoughts and feelings about your partner? You're already out. You already left the relationship.
So what do you think you need? What is left to resolve?

Speaker 1 Like, what are the answers that you need? Or are you just ruminating

Speaker 1 about someone?

Speaker 1 That fucked you up a little bit and maybe fucked you up more than you realized in the moment and you're having a hard time processing you know the loss and yeah you made it difficult to decide breaking up with her but you know what I'm saying like at some point if you're gonna keep thinking about a topic and and you you have to try to like fix that all right it's just like all right well what do I what can I do about this yeah I think I definitely have a hard time um

Speaker 6 letting

Speaker 6 thoughts go. I definitely like, I want to analyze, I want answers, I want to think things through.
And ironically enough,

Speaker 6 I love that you mentioned like, I'm not a therapist, you're not a therapist. I'm actually in a master's of counseling program.
So I really nerd out about like human behavior.

Speaker 6 And like I want to understand things. And that is just sort of my penchant for

Speaker 5 my nerdy thing, the human brain.

Speaker 1 I relate. But as someone who's going to school for this, I mean, you might, yeah, you have to, it's really important to, I think.
I mean, if you listen to the show, you hear all,

Speaker 1 I'm sure you've heard so many people call in who are like, yeah, I'm going to therapy. I go all the time about this very topic.
And I've been going for three years.

Speaker 1 You're just, you're not actually trying to solve the problem. You're just trying to analyze it.

Speaker 1 You know, and in your analyzation of this problem, you're just kind of going in circles. Just, you know, it's something to do.
It's, you've heard me talk about like, it's really tough breakups.

Speaker 1 There, there are these, you know, there's the, hey, I don't think we should be together. Let's stop hanging out.

Speaker 1 And then there's that physical, like cutting that person off, the change in like your behaviors and your the things that you did together and just your routines change but again that emotional connection can live on in your mind and body long after a relationship ends and i think ultimately what's happening is that you're still emotionally connected this relationship how long has it been since you broke up it's been about three

Speaker 1 Three months. Okay, so it's not that long.
How long did you date for? About a year. Okay.

Speaker 1 So it hasn't been that long.

Speaker 1 We're definitely getting to a point where it's like, all right, it's time to, you know, but my guess is that this is just a subcon, a subconscious way for you to convince yourself that it's okay to think about this person

Speaker 1 when you know you shouldn't be thinking about this person, but you're not thinking about them in an affectionate, loving way. You're thinking about them in this kind of like.

Speaker 1 like psychological analyzing thing, but it's not getting you anywhere. It's not accomplished anything.
You You don't even have a goal, right? Like there's no goal attached to this.

Speaker 1 Like, what are you trying to figure out? Like, you've, you think they were abusive. Really doesn't really matter at this point, one way or the other.
You're out of the relationship.

Speaker 1 Certainly, it's disappointed that you thought you had a trusting relationship with this person and they chose not to tell you this information they got called out on.

Speaker 1 But, you know, if you're trying to, even if you're trying to empathize with your ex, like, I bet she doesn't think that she was abusive.

Speaker 1 Like in her mind, she's thinking, oh, my ex is the crazy one, right? She called you narcissistic. A lot of narcissistic people call other people narcissistic.

Speaker 1 Maybe your ex and her ex were both equally toxic. And she's a victim in her mind when it comes to her ex calling her out online, you know.
So that might be her version. I don't know.

Speaker 5 Of course.

Speaker 1 So, but my point is, what is your goal?

Speaker 5 And I think, I think I'm

Speaker 6 struggling with, like, I totally agree with what you're saying about the, the, like, cyclical nature of just analyzing things to death and it not actually resolving anything um completely agree but i think that like

Speaker 6 i am struggling to move on and just enjoy my life move on with my friends another partner one day whatever when all of these things were like said and to me and done to me.

Speaker 6 And I don't even, I struggle to even label things as emotional abuse or narcissism and all of these buzzwords. Like I have a real.

Speaker 1 So when you say you're struggling to move on about because of what was said and done to you, like what, what specifically?

Speaker 6 Calling me abusive, saying that her abuse was reactionary abuse to my abuse. And then and I

Speaker 6 even talking about it now,

Speaker 6 I feel shame that I was even like involved in a relationship that is this damaging

Speaker 6 and that I didn't leave sooner. But I just, it's, it's, I, I'm, I'm one, I feel like I'm trying to analyze things to get to the bottom of like, is this, did I do something?

Speaker 6 Is there something that I could be, of course, we all have things that we could change about ourselves, but like, is there something that I have really done here?

Speaker 6 Is there any validity to what she has said about what I have done and things that I could actually improve on beyond just like general growth?

Speaker 5 Yeah. And then trying to, yeah, trying to figure that out.

Speaker 6 Like, am I crazy? Because I feel absolutely crazy. And that is what is really difficult for me.
I don't know if my story.

Speaker 1 So why do you feel?

Speaker 1 Why do you feel?

Speaker 1 Why do you feel that way? I mean, my, my initial reaction to what you just just said is that's a very human response to have.

Speaker 1 The fact that you are even questioning and willing to look inside and reflect about the role you played suggests that, like, for one, she called you a narcissist. That's not a

Speaker 1 narcissistic thing to do, right? We all can be narcissistic and self-centered, but most of us have the ability to go,

Speaker 1 I've been an asshole lately, or that was selfish of me, or I was wrong, and I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 And I feel guilt for her, you know, you feel guilt for something that you're not even sure you did, and you're worried that you might be, you know, so that in itself suggests that you probably aren't that person.

Speaker 1 But being the person who wants to be a better person, who wants to take accountability, you really want to figure this out so that you're not the person that your ex accused you of being, right?

Speaker 1 It's a little gaslighty and things like that that maybe your ex did. But again, like I always go back to like, you've heard me go in my soapbox about gaslighting, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You go online and people will say, if, if, if someone says any of these things to you, you're being gaslit, right?

Speaker 1 And, and in, and embedded in, and, in those bullet points is some version of that person calls you crazy.

Speaker 1 Again, I've never been in a fight with a spouse or a partner or whatever or a friend where we don't, at some point in the fight, think the other person's kind of crazy, right?

Speaker 1 That's why you're fighting because you don't, you, you think their reality is kind of delusional and it's certainly different than your reality, which is why two people are in conflict, right?

Speaker 1 It's gotten to the

Speaker 1 people fight. Relationships fight.
Like they're emotionally triggering.

Speaker 1 Like the whole point of being in a relationship, like if you can't get triggered by the person you love the most, then, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, that's the crazy thing about romantic relationships is like they're the ones that trigger us the most and they're the most volatile because they're the most precious to us, you know, and they, you know, and when we get hurt by those people, it really hurts, which sometimes causes fights and sometimes causes us to say things we don't mean and have to apologize.

Speaker 1 Still, like, again, if you're struggling with these thoughts, you know, work on this with your therapist and make sure it's going somewhere, you know, like break it down, you know, break down a fight that you had and get a second ear on like, what could you have?

Speaker 1 You definitely could make improvements as a girlfriend. You know what I'm saying? You can be a better partner.
We all can. You can certainly be a better partner.
So work on that.

Speaker 1 I don't think you need to want, you know, like, was I?

Speaker 1 Like, hopefully not.

Speaker 1 I don't think you were, you know again i wasn't there so i can't say for sure but the fact that you are even willing to reflect on something that your ex who has a pattern of unpredictable and reactive and potentially abusive behavior um i wouldn't spend that much emotional energy giving it that much attention

Speaker 1 or validity to the point where it's really affecting your mental health and emotional well-being. And it's giving that person, you know, power they don't deserve.

Speaker 6 No, yeah, I agree. That's a, that's a really good point.
I think I'm, I think I'm worried that like other people in my life might feel this way too and not have said anything. Um,

Speaker 6 and she's just the one that actually said, but again, like, I guess you can.

Speaker 1 Is there someone who comes to mind? When you say, I'm worried there's other people in my life who might have thought this way.

Speaker 1 If one person in your life outside of your ex felt this way, who would that be? Does anyone come to mind?

Speaker 6 Not a specific person. I guess just like friends and family.

Speaker 6 and i guess i guess there are certain qualities about myself like talking a lot or being kind of loud and verbose that i that i wonder like do those come off as narcissistic i just i really care not about like not being myself because i think that i am am comfortable in who i am but more that like other people that I care about are going to be upset or offended based on my behavior.

Speaker 1 I mean, listen, they won't. You caring so much about what other people think of you is, I guess, in some ways has a narcissistic point to it.
Right.

Speaker 1 A lot of what you're saying seems to be ego-driven, which is in itself kind of has a narcissistic element to it. Whatever.
And yeah, you could work on that for sure.

Speaker 1 But if no one comes to mind, if you're not like, you know what?

Speaker 1 My best friend Jenny, actually, I actually wonder if I, if I've, have I mistreated her? Have I really taken her for granted?

Speaker 1 And if you're not having an epiphany about like some crazy shit you've said to her, I mean, yeah, again, you've probably been self-centered.

Speaker 1 There have probably been, you know, if this isn't about, and this is not an exercise to be like, you know, how do I annoy you? What are my bad habits?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm sure all your closest friends could be like, well, you know, kind of insufferable sometimes. When you get like this, you're hard to be around.

Speaker 1 You're, I don't know, you're really in, I sure, we all are, but most of us are people who

Speaker 1 have seasons of this. You're old enough to have probably been a really selfish prick for a half a year at some point in your life.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 Where you just like, totally, you know, especially when we're

Speaker 1 the most lost, we're the most self-centered, you know, when we're the most like single, like because we feel justified to, you know, like we're all, I'm alone. All my friends have relationships.

Speaker 1 I don't have what I want yet.

Speaker 1 Those are really selfish moments of our lives when we are like still chasing our dreams, you know?

Speaker 1 I don't think that makes you narcissistic. You know, when you are in fight or flight mode in a fight, in a relationship, sometimes we say things that are hurtful to that other other person.

Speaker 1 Hopefully you apologized at times when you said things to your partner, you know, took accountability. But yeah, this is not about you,

Speaker 1 your ex saying some things and then you turning into your ego wondering if people like you. That's kind of what I'm getting a little bit.

Speaker 6 Do you have any advice then or perspective, I guess, on how to balance reflecting inward and trying to,

Speaker 6 yeah, reflect upon what somebody said about you and do better and sort of like unpack that a bit and think, hmm, like, what did I do here versus just unproductive overthinking because I feel like that's a hard time defining where that line is.

Speaker 1 Put a definition on it. Ask yourself the goal, right? Like the questions I'm asking you, you know, one, like, or what am I trying to actually figure out here, right?

Speaker 1 You can ask yourself that question. You can get to that answer.
By asking yourself that question, you get certain answers. Or what is this accomplishing? What am I feeling?

Speaker 1 What's the main feeling I have as a result of this rumination? How is it making me feel?

Speaker 1 If a lot of your answers are, I don't know, then maybe it's a sign that you're ruminating for no reasons that you, or reasons that you can't be honest with yourself about, you know?

Speaker 1 And again, usually that's just like ego, right? Like our egos are very tricky because, again, like it comes, usually comes, you know, it's like disrespect.

Speaker 1 Not all ego feelings and thoughts, I think, are wrong, right? Like our egos help us have self-respect and to enforce our boundaries and stand up for ourselves.

Speaker 1 And those are important characteristics to have.

Speaker 1 But the stronger we, the better, the better we are at that, the more at risk we are of

Speaker 1 our egos taking over

Speaker 1 and allowing us to see ourselves more as victims in any given situation. And

Speaker 1 then when that happens, we just kind of go down these rabbit holes.

Speaker 1 But like, if you can't accomplish anything from your rumination, my guess is it's probably time to challenge yourself to like move move on from it and that you're maybe just analyzing it to stay emotionally invested in it.

Speaker 1 And if you're an I'm an analytical person, we just like breaking shit down. It's like puzzles in our head.
You're emotionally attached to this puzzle. It's exciting in some ways.

Speaker 1 It's a challenge.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's tricky, though, because I feel like I had really detached myself from the puzzle and was doing really well emotionally.

Speaker 1 Maybe you were, but like

Speaker 6 this info, which is still my responsibility.

Speaker 1 But that was a new piece of the puzzle, right? Like, you know, you're describing like, you know, I don't know if you've seen like American Treasure, you know, with Nicholas Cage or whatever.

Speaker 1 And like his family were like these lifetime treasure hunters, kind of addicted to treasure hunting and things like that. And at times they'd be more like obsessed with it or not.

Speaker 1 But like, you got a new clue. And it was like Nicholas Cage's dad being like, this is just another stupid clue.
Like we've, we've been following stupid clues our whole life, right?

Speaker 1 And he's like, no, but this is a really good clue. And you got a clue.
And now you're just like, oh, now we're back on the treasure hunt, you know?

Speaker 6 Totally.

Speaker 1 So yeah, you were fine. You got triggered.
You haven't dealt with this trigger in a productive way.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you've used this trigger as a way to justify a bad habit you have, which is to overanalyze and ruminate about things.

Speaker 1 And then ones that you're emotionally connected to, it's just that much easier to go down these rabbit holes. But it's not getting you anywhere.
It's not accomplishing anything.

Speaker 1 There's nothing for you to actually solve. And now you're asking yourself questions about yourself that I think deep down you know the answers to.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, ironically, it is self-indulgent and it is you thinking about yourself.

Speaker 1 So if you really want to work on this so-called narcissism that you're being accused of, prove your ex wrong by letting it go.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And see, like I've, I've, I feel like it's coming from a place of, well, I want to figure out what I did wrong so that I can be a better person to help other people so that I can be a better therapist one day, a better mom one day, a better partner, a better friend.

Speaker 6 But it is, it ultimately leads back to ego and to myself. And then it, and then, and then that fuels the, the, the, you know, shame of feeling narcissistic or whatever it is.
So.

Speaker 1 Again, yeah, once you figure your shit out in the short run, you'll be a better version of yourself in the long run, but, you know, baby steps.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're kind of mind fucking yourself by saying, well, I'm doing all this to like, again, be a better person, be a better mom. And you've convinced yourself that's the goal.

Speaker 1 But it's actually like, again, that you're not, that's why that ruminating goes nowhere because the goal is so broad and so big and kind of just like unspecific that you never ask yourself, what am I actually ruminating about in this moment?

Speaker 1 And what is the specific thing I'm trying to solve and understand?

Speaker 1 And that's, and the reason you can't get there is because there's nothing really to solve or understand. You're broken up.
You know that she wasn't right for you.

Speaker 1 You know that while you weren't a perfect partner, that like you were generally okay, but there is some things you have to work on.

Speaker 1 And that's, and that's that. And you, and you're not surprised.
And honestly, this information, this clue that you received is not all that surprising. It just confirms what you already thought.

Speaker 1 And a person who has shown a pattern of this in past relationships said some very hurtful things that really like got under your skin and

Speaker 1 messed you up. And you should deal with that.
But like that shouldn't require you to stay in your head 24-7.

Speaker 6 For sure. Yeah, I think there's also an element of

Speaker 6 this being my first like queer relationship that I'm kind of holding on to that in a certain way and it's it's been more difficult because I feel like I'm like holding on to this element of myself that I've like recently let surface I don't know if that makes sense but I think that's part of it too and I'm just maybe I probably have a hard time harder time relating to that aspect than you but I

Speaker 1 At the same time, I just think maybe you should give your, rather than be harder on yourself about it, you should give yourself more grace. This is new for me.

Speaker 1 A lot of what I'm feeling is new and I'm trying to understand it. So focus on that rather than this.
Again,

Speaker 1 just trying to understand your ex on any level is just a giant waste of your time and energy. Who was I actually dating?

Speaker 1 You know, a flawed person of which you kind of knew about, and that's why you broke up.

Speaker 6 But is trying to understand myself in relation to what I went through a waste of time?

Speaker 1 I mean, you know, maybe a better question for someone with a little bit more experience than me, but like, I think that's,

Speaker 1 I think you could argue semantics and I think you can debate that I think deep down you know the answer and it's just striking that balance it's just having balance in your life and it's just reminding yourself a couple times a day that your ego exists that it needs to be constantly kept in check that it's gonna cause you to focus your energy on unpredictive things that are more ego driven rather than things that are actually like worth your time and make you happy.

Speaker 1 And you kind of know the answer. And like ruminating over it is really just something to do and entertaining.

Speaker 6 It's wild how you can know one thing that isn't, you can know that this isn't productive and that you don't want to be stuck in this, but there's some part of you that's clinging to it for God knows what reason.

Speaker 6 So.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I have found that in those moments, the answer is almost always your ego. Yeah.
And the more you get enlightened about your ego, the harder it is to just, you know, check yourself.

Speaker 1 But like, it's also kind of, it can be easy to do. And just be like, yeah, I mean, all right.
Like it never goes away.

Speaker 1 Your ego isn't something you you conquer and eliminate. It's something you learn to control.

Speaker 1 It's a superpower that left unchecked can kind of turn into this nasty virus that can take control of your life and cause you to do hopefully out of character things.

Speaker 1 When kept in check, it can be something that's really helpful for you to like stand up for yourself, know your self-worth, set.

Speaker 1 and communicate and enforce your boundaries and know how to say no to unhealthy people and choices and situations, then it's really productive.

Speaker 1 And every day, like the more enlightened you become, the better you are at every day kind of workshopping those kind of competing emotions.

Speaker 1 That on every day, there's some version of that conversation you probably need to have with yourself. But ruminating is a sign of the ego, I think, having more control than you want to acknowledge.

Speaker 1 I think ruminating is a sign of a lack of acceptance, especially when there's no specific goal of what you're ruminating over, when there's not a like a, oh, all right, I need to, this is my problem.

Speaker 1 I want to solve this problem. And, and, and as a result of the problem, I'm going to ruminate.
Not, you're just like, I feel this icky feeling. I want to understand this feeling that I'm having.

Speaker 1 I want to just keep, I want to figure it out. And you don't even know the problem.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 1 Or the problem is a, or the problem is this is some vague

Speaker 1 general thing. Right.

Speaker 6 No, I think there's an element of being just having had a lot of anxiety for my entire life and almost feeling some weird sense of comfort in that, even though, like, on the surface, I don't like my anxiety.

Speaker 6 I, it's not productive, it's not pleasurable, but there's an element of like comfort. If I let it go, what will happen? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, thanks for the call.
Keep us updated on how you work through this. And we'd love an update.
And

Speaker 1 hopefully, this is helpful.

Speaker 5 Thanks so much, Nick.

Speaker 1 All right. Take care.
Take care. All right.
Bye.