E945 – Going Deeper with Dakota Mortensen

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Dakota, welcome to the Vallefows.

Yeah, thank you.

How are you?

I'm doing pretty good, dude.

Okay.

Yeah.

We're very excited to have you.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

Are you nervous?

Yeah.

Yeah, I always get like nervous, and then I feel like once maybe I start going a little bit.

Do you need a sip of water?

I always do.

Always do.

I'm going to take a sip of water.

You have that nervous cotton mouth.

I can hear it.

I can hear it in your voice.

Dude, yeah, it's so weird.

It's like the one thing I, that's how I know when I'm nervous.

Yeah.

Did you grow up in Utah?

No, I grew up in Idaho.

Oh, Utah.

Yeah.

There you go.

Yeah.

And I actually, I grew up on a farm too.

So I lived like a, just kind of like a country life.

It was, it was awesome.

So what brought you to Utah?

Um, I actually, when I got sober, the last time I got sober, I think it was just hard for me to be in Idaho just during that time because like everywhere I went, it felt like it was just trigger trigger after trigger.

Like, it was like, oh, this gas station, oh, this place, like, everywhere I went.

And so, I kind of just got to this point where I was like,

I want to just leave and then just kind of have a fresh start.

There's just too much history.

Yeah, there was just too much history.

And I love Idaho.

Like, I love it there.

But yeah, it was just something I think during that time, it was like the best thing I could do.

Well, I'm, as we said, we're very excited to have you, grateful to have you here.

I was a little surprised when,

um,

and maybe I'm assuming you know this, but I don't know if it was you or your team was more like, hey, Dakota wants to come on and talk.

Yeah.

Which I'm very grateful that, you know, we get a lot of people saying, hey, they want to share their story.

Sometimes it's also us, you know, especially when it comes to people with the more maybe dramatic lives.

Yeah.

Sometimes there's a little reluctance to come on.

So I, you know, that, so that part is true.

You wanted, you wanted to come here.

Yeah.

Well, I think especially given like I'm I'm the type of person where I feel like I want to like given the situation, even with the show, like it's really hard sometimes because right like at the end of the day, I don't have really control of a lot of stuff, you know, that's like whatever it is about me.

And so a big part of it was just like, I just wish I could kind of sometimes talk and like show.

also who I am in ways because I just don't feel like I really get that.

Okay.

Yeah.

So that's kind of how I feel about it.

Okay.

Well, we're excited to have you and to give you that opportunity.

I want to go back, like we were talking about before, and just kind of get to know a little bit about your backstory, which I don't think we know a ton about.

You've been open about your

addictions,

but are people fully aware of just how heavy?

that period was and just the details of your substance abuse problem?

No.

And I think that's another thing too.

That that's a that's a huge part for me as well.

Is like I've always kind of wanted to have a voice just for even things like that, like things I'm like really passionate about or care about.

And for me now, that is like a huge one for me because addiction is it's so huge, like especially right now, like almost every single person probably can relate.

Like you have loved ones, family members that have gone through that.

And so for me, it's like I enjoy talking about it and I get to sometimes like through social media and different things like that.

And usually when I do it, like the, you know, the reciprocation I get back from it is absolutely wild.

Like, you know, I'll be getting comments all the time that are like, just lost my brother, just lost my dad today.

Like it, it just goes on and on and on.

And so

now, like, obviously, like, people know that I have like a pass with it, but I just don't think people understand like the full extent of how bad i actually was yeah so i guess if you're comfortable yeah talking about it like at its worst

what substances were you abusing yeah so for me it started out when i was in high school i was a big basketball player like i was like a huge sports like a jock

and um i had bad knees And I remember I was at a practice once and my knees were hurting super bad.

And I was in the gym and a kid was in there like for, I don't know, like doing like working out or something he was just like one of my friends kind of

and uh he like I was telling I was complaining about my knees I was like my knees hurt so bad and then he was like oh dude I have some pain pills you want some I had no idea like I didn't even know what pain pills were I was like yeah give me some you're like an Advil sure yeah like I just I didn't really understand it and so I took them and then I went and practiced

And I remember I had zero pain and like it was the best thing in the world.

I was like, so right when practice ended, I texted him and I was like, hey, whatever those were, get me as many of those things as you can.

And he wasn't even like a drug addict.

He wasn't a drug addict or anything.

Like, he wasn't like selling drugs.

Like, I think he just had some and he was just like, maybe taking them, like, maybe experimenting himself.

And so from there, I like met up with him.

And we, he said, he's like, I know somebody that had surgery and he has tons of pain pills.

Like, and we could go get some so i like went to this house and how old are you i was 17 or 17 i think

were you close with your family yes you were yes very close ever cross your mind to be like hey mom like how cool i found this thing that like my knee stopped hurting yeah well i think what happened was he eventually kind of told me like

you know a little bit more detail about him like It is kind of like a drug, like, you know, but like, I think just because it was a pill and it was like, I don't know, I didn't see, I think, the, the bad side of that in that way or kind of like if a doctor would prescribe this to someone, like, can't be that harmful.

Yeah, I just either way a 17-year-old you.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just, I had no idea.

And so we're there.

I'm pouring like handfuls of these pills, dude, putting them in my pocket.

And then that same kid was like, I also hear that if you snort them, they work better.

And so the second time ever, and it was more of a joke, like it was like funny.

Like we were like laughing about it.

He's never done it.

And so he's like, Let's try it.

And so we tried it.

And I remember when I was driving home, that was like the first time I felt like a high.

Like, and I remember when I was driving home and I was like,

this is the best feeling in the world.

Like, I was like, this feels so good.

Like, I just felt like anything inside of me was just like gone.

Like, I felt very like, just, I was like, I don't really care about anything right now.

And from there, it just, it just progressed really fast.

Like, I, you know, I eventually just got to where I started getting those as much as I could.

And like, my personality at the time, like, I was, I was friends with everybody.

So it was like, I was friends with the skater kids.

I was friends with the drug addict kids.

I was friendly.

Like, so then that branched out, you know, because then some of the drug addict friends, mine, I was like, hey, can you get me some of this stuff?

And they're like, yeah, we can.

And then like, and then it bumped to Oxy.

And then from Oxy, you know, you can go up in the milligrams of those.

And then, like, before I knew it, and I had no idea,

I remember I was in class and over the intercom.

It's when like the pill epidemic was like getting really bad.

They announced it over the intercom.

And

they were saying, like, hey, you know, just like talking about like how addictive it is and how bad they are.

And I remember I was like sitting there.

I was like, whoa, I'm kind of scared right now.

And so I remember right right after that, I was like, I'm not going to do it anymore.

And I tried to stop.

And I was like, I couldn't, like already, I was like, I couldn't stop.

And what was the feeling you had when you, how long did you stop for?

A day?

Not long.

Yeah.

It was like, it was like maybe like a day or two.

So what was the feeling that made you want to do it again?

Well, that's the thing is it's the, that was the addiction part of it.

And if you don't understand addiction, like like, and especially for me being so young, like I didn't know like all of those symptoms of like, uh, you're going to, you know, your body's going to crave it.

You're like, your mind starts to change.

Like, it's, it's telling you, like, hey, you need these, or you start to justify it to you really start to justify everything of being like, it's not that bad.

Like, you're good.

Like, you can, you can keep doing it.

You're fine.

I can always stop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, that's kind of what it felt like.

I was like, I'm fine.

It's not like doing anything to me.

And then, yeah, and then I just started doing like, you know, different things like that.

And then I started, I had a buddy that eventually told me you could smoke them off of tinfoil.

And

that changed everything.

Who gave you this tutorial?

How did you learn to do this?

Another drug addict.

Wow.

And he, was he the same age as you?

Uh, he was actually, he was a year younger than me.

And you want to know the crazy part?

His mom walked in on us doing that.

And his mom was okay with it.

What?

Yeah.

Like, she never said anything.

And I still to this day, when I think back sometimes on that story, I'm like, that's, that was crazy.

Like that they just kind of were like, okay with that.

And the cool thing is that kid, he's sober now.

His mom's sober now.

I think his whole family is sober, which is, it's like a miracle.

It's really cool because he, he, he was really bad too.

And he went down a really dark path as well.

Yeah, once I started smoking them and then the cost for these pills, it got so crazy.

You were spending, they were selling, you know, because eventually, yeah, people stopped giving them to you again.

Yeah, yeah.

It got to a point to where they were selling them for $50 a pill.

And so

it's a lot of money.

And, you know, and during this whole time, like, what are you, how are you making money at this point?

Working.

I always worked.

Like, I was always working.

I was construction, whatever, you name it.

Like, I was always, and it was always manual labor.

Like, just growing up in Idaho, like, I was always doing At this point, you're high working manual labor.

Yeah, so I was high all- Did anyone, like, what, did your parents start noticing a change in your behavior?

Or employers started noticing a change in your behavior?

Yeah, the funny part is the first time I smoked a weed ever in my life, I got caught by my parents because I was so high.

And I had no idea what it was like.

And these stoner kids I was with just kept telling me, they're like, it's your first time, you're not going to get high.

So I'm just like taking these bong rips.

Just

was this before your pill additional?

I think it was right in the beginning phases of it.

So, and then I was like, I'm going to try weed.

And

I was so high.

And they're like, ah, dude, you'll be fine.

Even you got like three hours.

You won't be high, or, you know, or something like that.

Two hours till you're back home.

I came back home and, you know, I couldn't even, I couldn't talk.

My dad saw me and it was like an instant, like, what is wrong with you?

And

I remember he was yelling at me and I was laughing

because I was so high.

Like, I just thought it was funny.

And so, so it was like a, it was crazy because when I look back at everything, it really was a blessing with my family because they caught me with pills really early on as well.

And so they knew almost from the start of when I started everything that like I was like kind of like starting to dabble with some of these things.

And then from there went to heroin because then oxies were so expensive.

Heroin was a little cheaper.

Similar highs.

So you just transfer.

And a lot of people do this.

And at that point, like, what is, if you remember, like, what is your brain telling you?

Because like for me, like, I'm the kid.

Yeah.

Dare worked.

Right.

You know, I was like, Yeah, I don't want to turn green, man.

Like, I'm, I'm, I didn't do drugs in high school.

So, like, obviously, you had a different mentality.

Yeah.

You know, to me, growing up, it's just like, you know, yeah, maybe kids smoke weed, maybe kids drink, whatever.

Even the crazy kids might have tried cocaine.

But then it's like, heroin is like, yeah, don't, that's, that'll kill you.

Yeah.

Did it even like register what you were doing?

You know, it, it registered a little bit because when I first, I believe the first time that I got it, and when you start going into like that world of like the heroin meth side, you start to like truly walk into houses that are just weird.

Breaking bad.

Yes, like it's, it's really, really sad.

Like, I remember being in a lot of houses where I, my heart would like break for just what was going on, which is so weird because like I'm sitting here using these drugs, but I'm also looking at the situation and being like, This is crazy, I should not be in this house.

But didn't it dawn on you that like that was your next destination?

No,

and what's crazy is I, the, yeah, the first time that I got heroin, I remember the people that I got from they were shooting up heroin, and watching that

was so scary to me because, like, you know, it's an instant thing, like, it's like they'll just go like this,

and it's they're they're just gone.

And that really scared me.

And so I, I remember when I saw that, I told myself, if I ever shoot up, I'm gone.

Like, I just knew that was the thing.

And, and, and I, I've heard like when you go to needles to quit is, it's 10 times harder.

And so I kind of always made that promise to myself to where I was like, I'm never gonna shoot up.

And so I was just still.

So you started smoking.

Yeah.

So I was just smoking it.

do you feel like that was probably the most memorable moment you have of like being scared while in your addiction um

you know there was there was a lot of moments because i think with addiction especially when you're trying to quit

i mean you're hitting rock bottom a lot like there's there's so many times like i can't tell you how many times where i would be like oh yeah i'm done like i'm not going to do this anymore like where i'd almost almost overdose, right?

Like, and I got rushed to the hospital one time.

Like, and I,

you know, I just think I kept having these moments.

And that's where, like, the power of addiction and how hard it is to quit, it's so wild.

I mean, it is your whole life.

When you wake up in the morning, it's the first thought in your head.

When you go to bed at night, it's the first thought in your head.

So your whole life becomes just chasing this high.

That's all you're doing every day, 24-7.

And you will do anything to get high.

What was the craziest thing you did to get high?

The craziest thing?

Hmm.

I mean,

I mean, I did, you know, I mean, I'm

judgment free zone.

Yeah, thank you guys.

I appreciate that.

I mean, like, I stole a lot.

Of like your mom's thing?

Yeah, I stole a lot of stuff from my parents and like would pawn stuff off.

I remember we would do this thing.

One of my buddies learned that like a big thing was tools, like power tools.

If you like a lot of people, you could get a lot of money for them.

So I had a buddy that learned a trick where you could go into these stores.

We do it at Walmart even.

Sorry, Walmart.

Sorry, Home Depot.

And I think they changed it now because of it, but you would go in, you would grab a tool or something, and then you would walk straight to the return place.

And some of the places would return it without a receipt.

And then they would give you money for it.

So, like, I would, I, I would go with a buddy.

We would walk into Walmart.

He would go and grab all of these, like, oh, I can't even remember what they were at the time.

Like, and we would just walk straight to the to the return thing and they would exchange that for

you would take that cash and go straight and then go straight to there.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so.

What's the most dangerous thing you've done to get money?

I would say just like breaking into cars.

I never broke into any houses.

I had a few buddies that would do that.

I was always, I'm from Idaho.

Everybody's got guns.

So like I was always like, I was like, I'm not even going to risk that.

Like,

but yeah, I would say it was just more things like that.

I always tried to not

go to the next levels of what some people were doing.

Like you hear stories about like sex work and things like that.

Oh, dude, yeah.

So sometimes this has happened.

Nobody's going to believe me when I tell this story, but like there would be like sometimes like girls would be like drug dealers

and when you're really hurting and like they would call it like sometimes like it's like dry.

They would say it's dry.

And that would mean like nobody can get like it's it's really hard to get like there'd just be like a dry moment where all the pills were gone on.

inventory is low yes inventory is low and so you'd be hitting up so many people to try to find things and and when you're withdrawing and you're you know you're just like dying there was like some girls that were drug dealers and they would like always offer me like if i slept with them that they would like give me free drugs i said no okay i i never said yes to any of that but like i think just i'm assuming no judgment to whoever these drug dealers are but I imagine these were people that weren't getting laid and they saw a handsome young man.

I get what you're saying.

No one's going to believe this because usually it's the

other way around where men are the ones always like trying to get some sex.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think maybe that's what it was.

But you know what?

I can almost promise you a lot of those girls were getting sex from lots of other men that were willing to do that.

Because

yeah, when you're again, when you're withdrawing.

How did you turn a corner?

Like, what was the moment where you started realizing

there's a huge problem and you started getting the help that you needed?

Yeah.

So I had a high school sweetheart and

I, yeah, I like, I loved this girl.

It was like my first love.

And I was actually at a point where I proposed to her.

And I was going to get married.

And

everything you do is always,

if I get married, I'll stop.

If I do this, this is where I'll stop.

And so I kind of put that in my head once I was engaged to her that

I was like, I'm not going to use

once I get married.

Like, I'm going to.

Did she know about your addiction?

She knew about it, but

she didn't understand it.

Like, and nobody did.

Nobody understood it.

Like, my family didn't understand it.

Nobody understands it.

When you say understand, like, did they, they didn't know you were taking heroin?

Um, did they?

No, my, no, she, she had no idea that I was using heroin.

Like, and she knew, she had no idea how bad I really was as well.

And

so it was just like, yeah, it was one of those things where I thought, like, just by getting married, that maybe that would stop.

And I remember when I was going to my wedding, it was going to be my last hurrah before I stopped.

And

before I left,

we were like, we should should use one more time.

Who's we?

Like some of my buddies.

Like, and so

I am in my,

like, you know, I'm your suit.

Yeah, like, I'm getting ready to go do this.

Yeah, like a wedding day.

Yeah, it's a wedding day.

And I am trying to get drugs.

And I remember I was supposed to be there at a certain time.

And I was like, late like I wasn't late, late to the wedding or anything, but like, meaning like I was late to where I should have been there a lot earlier and doing these things because drug dealers don't care they're they're just like what like

so um i remember i showed up and yeah so i i used there and that was actually fentanyl that i used there and uh

you know that was kind of the that was my thing i was like yeah this is i'm done not gonna use anymore blah blah it took using fentanyl on your wedding day to get you to stop nope Oh, nope.

Didn't stop there, guys.

Wasn't that because I'm not married now.

So, absolutely.

Yes.

Did you ever get you ran it back?

You got married.

I got married.

Yeah.

So, um, I ended up getting married, and she was, she was like such a sweet girl.

She was like the sweetest girl ever, like, very just like innocent.

Like, just.

I would imagine she did not deserve that version of you.

Oh, absolutely not.

Like, and I think that's why it was so sad was because it's like during this time, i'm going through all of these like weird emotions and things

but again i i still don't understand what's happening to me like i i it's like your brain your whole brain chemistry changes like you it it rewires your brain and so everything like i couldn't see actually how bad i was and then we got married

And then this was a, this was the craziest part.

We end up getting a house.

Okay.

When we move into the house, we're moving into it.

I am driving to the house.

There is a guy or I should say a kid that is right next door mowing his lawn.

And that kid was my drug dealer.

I had no idea.

And so when I got out, he comes over to me and he's like, what are you doing?

I was like, I'm moving in here.

And he's like, oh, dog.

He's like, if you ever need anything at all, let me know.

I got you.

And I was like, this never ends.

And so

I remember she was actually going, she was working towards being a nurse.

So she was at the time, she was a CNA.

So she was working nights.

And so, you know, that whole dynamic is really weird, right?

Because it's like, she's sleeping during the day.

And then, like, you know,

gone at night.

And so I remember I held off for a a while, and then

and not long, but I held off for a little while.

And then I remember he hit me up one night, and uh, I was like, okay.

And then I went over, and then how old was he?

He was probably like two years older than me.

Okay, yeah, so I think we were like 20, he was like 24, I was like, maybe

22 or something like that.

Yeah, and uh at this point you're taking fentanyl, heroin, math.

Yeah, this was still more heroin here.

Uh, fentanyl came in a little bit later.

I was doing uh fentanyl patches at the time because fentanyl wasn't like it didn't come in yet, like it is, and so that's when, um, yeah, it was mostly just heroin, and then like the fentanyl patches are like we would get those from cancer patients, by the way.

Like, we would find people that were dying from cancer, and they would sell all their drugs to people to make money.

And yeah, which is really sad.

And so, yeah, I remember like just, and like that, that whole thing was like weird too, because I didn't even know what fentanyl was at that time.

But like, it's like, it like knocks you out.

Like, it's like so crazy.

And it can last for a long time.

So how long were you married?

I was married for like a year and a half.

And you were abusing drugs the entire marriage?

Yeah, I was abusing drugs the whole marriage.

Have you ever apologized to her?

Yeah.

You have?

Yeah.

Yeah, I did.

And it was, uh,

yeah, it was really hard.

That's, that's the part that I think that was something that

clicked into me later when I was like in my first rehab

is you don't understand the damage you cause other people.

Like even my family, for example.

You just don't, you're not thinking that way.

Like you're so selfish and stuck in your ways of just, it's all about you because that's that's like almost all you can think about is just like get high get high get high

so when i got sober i remember there's this point where

it like hit me like i had just this it was like a moment of clarity and i just remember thinking about my family And like at the time, I had a little sister.

There's a big age gap between us.

I've always wanted a little sibling so bad my whole life because I was the youngest out of my family.

Yeah, just seeing how much pain I caused my whole family and just people,

that's like,

yeah, that almost like hurt me way more.

Cause like for me, you don't care about yourself.

Like I didn't care if I died.

I didn't care about anything.

But

when I got sober for a little bit, it was just kind of seeing how much damage you cause other people.

and how much they went through.

And like,

thank God my family is like, they stuck by my side through everything

and they did not have to do that like they could have given up on me a million times does it hit you a little harder now that you have your own son oh yes and you can't imagine like losing him yeah that's where uh that was a really big

transformation for me because i have always wanted a family my entire life i actually i wanted a girl first that's what i wanted first for some reason i wanted a girl more than anything um and I'm, I mean, I'm so, it didn't matter, but I'm just saying, like, that I was like, yeah, I was like, I want, I want a little girl really bad.

But when I had him,

that was like the cool, the, gosh damn, dude, I can't even talk about him half the time.

Yeah, that just,

I gotta stop being a bitch.

You know, he shows you're human.

It was, uh,

yeah, it was just cool to

kind of have like a full circle moment there.

Like, cause I never knew I would even be alive.

Yeah.

And

yeah, and then just the amount of love and that I would do like anything for him.

And, you know, it even, it even shifted my perspective even to my family.

Maybe that's how it was for you guys too, a little bit, but like you kind of even see the side of like, you know, I don't know what your dynamics are like with your parents, but like you can kind of, you kind of understand like the caring part of that of like how you know when you're growing up like if your parents are hard on you or you know they're like doing these things or they're like showing you how how much they care and you're just like a punk kid being like whatever i know what i'm doing it was uh you know that even changed it was like a really cool experience for me to just kind of have that to be like oh i get it like you guys were just doing your best too you just loved me unconditionally

and you you guys were just trying your best and it's like and i feel like no parent obviously does it perfect but they definitely were just doing their best, you know, to like.

Do you have,

and maybe this is something that like you'll use whenever it gets a little bit older, but like advice, I think for any parent, one of their biggest fears is like, I hope my child doesn't grow up to become a drug addict.

Like, how do I keep, there's like the scare tactic, there's like, how do you think from your perspective, like parents should go about keeping drugs out of their children's life?

Yeah, well, I think a big one is I would always be paying attention to their friends.

I think friends are a really huge thing.

It's kind of just like who you surround yourself with.

You know, you're going to eventually kind of start doing what they're doing.

I think that's a big one to keep an eye open for.

Obviously, like if you have prescription drugs in your house, I mean, if you don't need them anymore or if you do need them for certain things, like make sure you lock them up, hide them.

But I think the biggest part would be

to really allow your kid to feel like they have the trust to come to you and talk to you about anything with absolutely no judgment and just knowing that they want what's best for you and that they're gonna help you totally because i think that was really hard for me for some reason i was i was always so petrified to like talk to my parents about how awful i was is what it felt like i also imagine there's a level of um i think most parents and i don't know how your parents felt and maybe you had conversations with them since, but I imagine there's a lot of parents out there who feel like they're good parents and they have a good kid and they just like, just would just never imagine their kid doing stuff like that.

So they almost take for granted, not to assign any blame, but like just being diligent enough to know that like.

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So, how did you get clean?

I got clean when I was married, and I remember I had

this really cool experience.

It was just like a really, I don't know, it was very, for me, it was a very godly, like just spiritual experience for me.

but I remember I was I was hurting so bad because I was still using

and I just felt like such a crappy person like I just hated myself so much and I remember I uh

I said a prayer and I was like hey

and at this time I kind of like I didn't even know if I believed in God anymore I was just kind of like out of that whole like i was like i don't even know anything i don't really care anymore and i was like i'm gonna just try to say a prayer and see what happens.

And I said a prayer and I was like, if there's anything you can do right now, just like, just please, like, I need help so bad and I need something to happen that will just

change.

And right after I said that, I had a cousin that I haven't talked to like since I was a little kid.

And he was a junkie for like 25 years, 30 years.

And then he was sober.

He ended up getting sober.

He worked at a a rehab place.

And he randomly out of the blue shot me a text like right when I was done praying.

And he sent me like a scripture.

And then I just thought that was kind of weird.

And so, like, I remember texting him and just being like, hey, I'm actually like, I kind of feel like I need help right now.

And then he like texted me back stuff, but then I blew him off.

I was like, I don't know if whatever.

The next day,

this was Christmas Eve.

I was with my wife.

We went to like a movie.

I came home and I was

going to get drugs.

And how I used to do it when I was married was I would, this sounds so bad.

This is so shitty.

Like such shitty birds.

And then I would have like the, my

like drug dealers, they would drop off drugs in my mailbox and then I would go out to the mailbox and get them.

and then like come back inside and like get high.

You're like pretend to go get the mail.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or I'd just like sneak out and go grab it real quick.

And then she was in her bathroom, and I went into the other bathroom and locked the door.

And I was like, getting ready to, you know, I was like, getting ready to do it.

And she grabbed the key, unlocked the door, and opened it with me using.

And

it was like the most craziest

experience because she was just broken.

Like she was broken.

And the saddest part is I was so numb, I felt nothing, not a thing.

Like in that moment, I was just like,

so numb.

And then the drugs that I had,

I took it, hid it real quick, watted up like the tinfoil, threw it in the toilet because she came back in.

Was like, where are they?

Where are they?

And I was like, it's in the toilet.

Like, watch, I'll flush it flushed it but i kept the drugs and then she called my family my family came and picked me up and then when i was driving home i like even just driving home like i remember i was like i was like sitting on the door i was just like so out of it

and

i was like this close from just like opening the door and just throwing myself out the truck.

Like I just was like, I want to just freaking throw myself out right now.

Got home and I was at my parents' house for a while.

And then, like, the next day,

uh, she like came over, essentially said, She's like, Hey, like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna get a divorce.

And, oh, and by the way, during this time, I was in rehab.

So I checked myself in rehab.

Like, I did go to her and I was like, hey, I'm struggling.

I got to get help.

I don't know how to do it.

And I managed to get help.

So she caught you after she thought you were in a rehab.

Yes.

And then from there,

I remember there was this point where I was like, this is where I was going to kill myself.

And I went, I bought like a gram of heroin.

And I was just like, I'm going to just shoot up and I'm going to just try to kill myself.

Like, this is where I'm like, so sick of this life.

Like, I just, I don't know how to stop.

I don't, I, I like can't stop.

It felt like it was just, I could never stop.

And when I did,

that same cousin called me and he said, hey, I'm going to come pick you up.

I'm going to get you into my rehab that I work at for free.

And I'm going to come grab you.

And there was just this one, there was like a brief moment where I just said, okay.

I was like, I'll try it one more time.

This will be my last time.

I was like, if this one doesn't work, I'm done.

Like, I'm I'm just going to kill myself.

I don't like doing this anymore.

And

went and I like moved away.

When I was going through withdrawals and like just going through all of that, like detoxing from

drugs, I got served papers

and like did the divorce thing on top of it.

Like, and that was just so hard.

It was so hard to go through that because, like, when you're getting sober, you're having so many, like, dude, the emotions and everything that are just like,

it's just like endless.

And

yeah, and then I just went through all of that.

And then right when I finished there, I was there for four months, drove back home, packed all my bags, and left the next day to Utah and moved to Utah.

And then never moved back from since I've been there.

Wow.

And in rehab, did you, there's like, isn't there like a drug that helps heroin addicts?

Yeah, it's like methadone.

Methadone.

Were you on that?

Nope.

No.

Cold turkey.

Nothing.

Yeah.

I cold turkeyed it.

And

the crazy thing is, is when I was in Utah, I actually was sober for close to like four and a half years, five years.

So I was actually doing great.

Like I was actually like super happy.

I was just like loving life again.

I never got to really enjoy life.

It almost felt like.

I just felt like I missed out on everything.

I never got to do anything.

I ended up

having a relapse and it was fentanyl.

and then I started using fentanyl

after four years of being so yeah I went back and uh

that that one how long ago was that that one was over now it's been over three years

and

it was

so hard like fentanyl was a whole game changer and in a bad way yes

thank you for clarifying yeah yes it was not a good good not in a good way it was uh yeah, it was so hard.

Like even from heroin to that, the jump from that to that one,

it was so tough.

And so I eventually got to a point there where I was like, okay, I'm going to have to do something here to get clean.

And the cool part was because I had such a long period of time where I was sober, I knew

like how it kind of worked at this point.

I understood addiction a little bit better.

I had like the knowledge.

And so what I actually did, it sounds weird, but I did it just for myself too, so that I could see.

But I wanted to, I actually documented a lot of that period of time for myself to watch what it did to how much it changes you.

When I watch back on some of those videos, like it would blow your mind.

Like

your whole thought process changes.

Like immediately, like I was like so positive and just like happy.

Like, even if I didn't have anything, like, I was just happy.

Like, I was like, I don't need anything i'm just i can enjoy life like i'm just happy to be alive and it went straight back to like i hate myself you're worthless you're never going to do anything so it was crazy to just see how much the drugs do impact that side of things as well so how are you able to kick that um i

decided that i was like the only way i can do this is if i just uh so i at the time i was living in idaho again for a little bit it was during the pandemic and was that when you relapsed yeah do you think that had yeah

yeah it had to do with that and then i moved in with uh one of my like best friends at the time that just got out of prison and uh he ended up relapsing and then i was living with him and then that's kind of how it just

like it was a slippery slope there um so what i did was

I got a I got a hotel in St.

George.

So it was like a nine-hour drive.

And I drove all the way to St.

George and locked myself in a hotel for five, six days and just

went through the gnarliest withdrawals and was just in bed shaking, like

sweating, throwing up.

Like it was.

What made you have that revelation?

Because what you just described isn't easy.

No.

I mean, at any point, you could have just walked out

of the hotel room.

I think it was just that, I think it was the part that I knew, I could finally see that I knew all of the beliefs in my head at that time were lies.

It wasn't real.

It was just like, I knew it was just the drugs.

It was all the drugs just like changing how I'm thinking.

This might be a bad analogy because I don't know what it's like to be an addict.

First time I got my heart broken, I didn't think I could get over it

because I had never been in love before.

And so like the things I told myself about love and my inability to get over it were based off the premise that I was like, I can't get over this because I had no playbook.

Yeah.

The second time I got my heart broken, I could argue was more painful than the first time given the stakes.

But what I knew, the only difference was, is like,

I know I can beat this.

Yeah.

Is that

kind of similar to what you're describing?

Yeah.

That is actually, yeah, that's a great analogy.

Like, I feel like that's kind of what it was like for me.

And even though it's really hard still, right?

Like, it's like, there's always now there was that piece of hope.

I, I at least had the hope of knowing that I'm like, no.

This doesn't have to be it.

Yeah, like, this, this doesn't have to be it.

Like, I, I can still, I can still do this.

And I told myself, even if I went and did this thing, that if this didn't work, I would check myself into a rehab.

So it was kind of just my last effort to try to do it on my own and to see if I could do it.

And yeah, from there, I went back home.

I moved out of the place I was staying with my friend, and he actually went straight back to using.

And

then I

moved in with my parents.

And then I started doing,

like, I think I maybe for like, because it was still, I was still like hurting really bad, like, just even like the withdrawals.

It still lasted for a while.

Like, it's, it's a, it's a long period of time of just kind of feeling really funky.

But then I started

75 Hard.

What's that?

Like

workout?

Yeah, the workout thing.

The workout thing.

Yeah, it's crazy.

You don't know about that?

Because it's very hard for people who do 75 Hard to not talk about it.

Yeah, sorry, guys.

I had to let you know.

But I only did that because I was like, I just need something to give, like, give me some form of a push of it's like three workouts a day or something.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, I can't even remember what the whole thing is.

Like, drink a gallon of water.

You gotta, you gotta do an outside workout.

It's a lot of like, yeah, I got pretty cut, dude.

Like, I got pretty, I got in like the best shape at that time of my life.

Like,

and

so I started that and then I moved back to Utah and then kept doing that there and

got to a, you know, like a pretty good place where I was just like really focused on that side of things, the health side.

And then, yeah, I mean, there's just obviously there's a lot of, there's still a lot in there, but, you know, I don't want to think about it.

Do you feel like you're in a place now where you can like be maybe around some of those guys from your childhood and like set that boundary?

Or are you kind of like, I don't even want to go anywhere near that?

Yeah.

Like, for example, my one of my best friends, like almost everybody that I was dealing with at that time, they're like all dead.

Most of them are all dead.

Like any of those people that I was like hanging around, a lot of them are dead now.

And so I have one friend.

Well, I have two.

One of them's on methadone and he's at least like, you know, he's been on that for a long time.

And then the other one, he is actually, he ended up getting sober.

He went back to jail and got out and he's been doing a lot better now.

Sorry, what did you ask me again?

Like, do you feel like you can set those boundaries?

Like, say you go back and they're like, should we?

Are you good?

Like, do you feel like you're in such a good place where you'd be like, yeah, just a follow-up to that is like.

You've been sober for three years.

Yeah.

Have there been moments?

Like, how, have you been pretty close to?

Yeah, I mean, I don't don't know what it's like in your shoes.

Dude, so I mean, you talk about like the breakup part.

So this is the first time where I have ever went through like a breakup, or you could say it like with Taylor, where I have never relapsed.

That to me, it's really hard on me.

Relationships, for some reason, are extremely hard on me.

And I think a big part of it is because, like, again, when I am in, I feel very in

and like almost to a point where it's, it, it's probably not super healthy sometimes because I'm just like, I can't think about anything else but that.

It's like, and that to me is the, you know, the side of like being either codependent and you know, or like just even my personality is that way.

It's like I very much fixate on things that I enjoy or like, like the energy drinks.

You know, there was a time I was drinking three or four of those a day.

That's crazy.

Yeah, because I was just like, it's, it's just like how I am with things sometimes and I hate it.

And so it's really important for me to do them, you know, try to find things that are a little healthier for me that I can kind of guide that.

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When did you meet Taylor?

Let's start unpacking that.

So I met Taylor.

So when I moved back, I met her at that time.

I think I was, and here's the thing, I was only, I think, five months sober, six, six months sober when I met her.

Yeah, when I met Taylor, I just,

again, like how I am as a person,

it's really hard for me to feel like I like

someone enough to give someone myself.

Like, it's just like, like, I just don't ever, I've never felt like I, it's hard for me to find somebody where I really am like, yes, like, I want to be with you.

And with Taylor, that, yeah, when I met her, that's where I kind of felt really scared.

It scared me more than anything.

It scared me for so many different reasons because

one, given her whole background, her whole situation of what she was just coming from, I was like scared of that.

So like she was already

famous, wasn't she, when you met her?

And mom talked about that.

Well, yeah, no, no, she, the scandal was already out.

Okay.

Yeah.

So yeah, she was she was famous.

But the funny thing is, I actually didn't know about really anything of that until the scandal thing came out.

But Taylor, she has, we have mutual friends

when she went online and said, Yeah, this is going on in my life.

Yeah, like my TikTok page at that time was like just like goofy, like weird stuff.

And then, like, all of a sudden, you know, I'd see a few things about this.

I was like, oh, my girlfriend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and what's funny is, like I said, like, my best friend is like, she like, she was friends with Taylor.

And so, and I had like other mutual friends that knew Taylor.

And the other.

Is she divorced at this point?

I want to say she was.

Like, I think she was.

I don't know.

I mean, I think she was.

But she was definitely separated.

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

She was legally.

No, no, no, yeah.

It was like.

She was a cyclo.

Yeah, don't say that.

But yeah, I think she was.

fully divorced at this time.

And the funny part is she actually, she followed me on Instagram maybe a year before that, which is really funny from like my friend, I think.

Like you would post stuff of me.

And so she followed me, but like I didn't really think anything of it, right?

And she was just like married, had kids.

I was like, oh, that's cool.

But and so like we followed each other.

And then,

yeah.

And then like once all that happened, like some DMs were exchanged.

And then it got.

Once all what happened.

What?

Once all what happened.

Like just like following each other back.

Yeah, like yeah, like and then like DMing each Okay.

And to be honest with you, for me, I, I really didn't think like she even would want to hang out.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, I was just like, you're just going through so much right now.

Anyways, probably, it was like, that's like the last thing that's probably going to happen.

And then, yeah, that eventually happened and we like hung out.

How aware of your addiction was she?

Or your, your, your, or struggle with addiction.

Yeah, she was very aware.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm, I was super, I'm super open with like that side of things.

Okay.

Um, just like, yeah, so she like knew about all of that.

And how soon into the

relationship did

her arrest happen?

The big fight at the house?

I think it was four or five months in.

I mean, she was throwing the chair at you, which almost hit her.

Yeah.

And

that was a

really scary thing.

That night was, i mean you want to talk about being like in a position of what do you do that that's how i that's how it felt and i get a lot of shit for that still but

well i mean i i mean it don't how just kind of being a dude like i want to be honest like just i think being a guy in that situation is it it was really scary for me like and it was scary for me because like her kids were there and so just the fact that like it's a domestic dispute and cops are being called you're immediately dude a thousand percent.

And so, like, I mean, like, I did take a video, like, I, I, I videoed it, and the only reason I did that was I didn't know what was going to happen.

Like, and so my truck was in the garage, so I could not leave.

I tried to leave, I, it just was so bad.

So, you were videoing her kind of going

off the rails, yeah, yeah, what started it.

Well, she was hammered, she was absolutely hammered, and so I I don't know if you remember in the first season, even, but like, that was like one of my big things.

I was like, hey, look, if you want to party, you want to do those things, you can go do it.

I just, I'm not, I don't want to be there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't want to be in that.

I don't want to be in a relationship like that.

And I even said that.

Like, I made it very clear.

I was like, that's fine if that's what you want to do.

Like, it has, you know, you're good to do that.

I just, I, I don't want to be around that.

I don't want to deal with that.

And, you know, obviously it happened multiple, multiple, multiple times.

And I think for me at that time, it was tough because it's like, well, guess what?

That's a world that I know.

I understand that world.

And I could also see that Taylor was absolutely suffering.

Like she was going through a lot.

And so I think that's the part in me that was just very forgiving of it of just, I'll let you just kind of like try to see if maybe you could work some of this out.

But that night specifically, it was.

you know, and when people get really drunk, right?

It can go in phases of like emotional to then anger.

Like it will change.

And so when I picked her up from this party, when I was driving home, she just was like, you know, crying, breaking down, and just like hated herself for kind of, you know, I think everything she did, I think with like, you know, her family, like losing everything.

It was actually really, really sad to see that.

And

yeah, it was just, she was just, you know, just in shambles.

And when I got to her house at this time i i didn't know her kids were there by the way either i had no idea so i actually pulled up next to her house and i was trying to carry her in the house and this didn't look good but like for

like with my luck there's a there's a person that's going on a walk at night that is walking around the corner and taylor is just you know like just crying and like just and it and i'm kind of like nervous of just that part now i'm like and so i had to just make sure i told that person even like i'm like hey she's just really drunk like i'm just trying to get her in the house like but even then but right dude even then i was kind of like gosh damn i was like i don't know what to do and then i go i get her to the front door it's locked and then she's like oh my keys are in my truck at the party like where she was at because she left her vehicle and so i'm like oh

So I put her back in the car, drove all the way back to the party, grabbed the keys, then came all the way back.

This is where things changed, and the other part of her came out.

Like it was the anger part.

It was so fast when it switched, but when I got there, I pulled into her garage and parked, helped her in the house.

And sure enough,

she had a sitter that was watching her kids.

So the craziest part is if I would have known that, I could have just knocked on the door and got her in bed.

Everything would have been okay at that time.

But because of having to go back and then on the drive back to the party, were you provoking her a little bit of being like, Oh, no, no, no, no, would you leave your keys?

Now I got to drive all the time.

Nope, not at this time.

The, the, the part where I was upset was in the very beginning of her just

choosing to get drunk again, like, cause she even told me she wasn't going to drink.

Sure.

And, like, again, this was just

time and time and time after again.

But even then, like, once, once she was in the car and stuff, and it was like, I was just kind of like, I just don't, I don't don't know why you keep doing this.

When you ask that question now,

are you able to answer it?

Wait, which question?

In the moment, you were like, I don't know why you keep doing this.

Oh, well, yeah.

I mean, I guess.

Like, you know, after the whole conversation we just had.

No, no, no.

Meaning, yeah, like, I guess I understood it, but like, it just felt because I just gave her that ultimatum of like, well, it wasn't like an ultimatum, but it kind of was in the beginning of just like, hey, look, like.

Which is 100% valid.

Yeah, like I'm just like, this is my history.

I don't want to be around around this.

Yeah, like, I just don't like dealing with that stuff.

And, and, and because that is all I've ever seen my whole life, I have always seen the negative effects, whether it's alcohol or anything else.

And obviously, like, coming back, I mean, she was, you know, when she was like broken, I was just immediately like, okay, I'm going to just try to take care of you, get you in the house.

And then when we got into the house, when I came back, like the sitters, like it was immediately like so chaotic that, like, even I told them, I was like, hey, she's just really drunk.

I'm going to try to just get her to bed.

And

like, the second they walked out the door, it was,

yeah, it essentially it just turned into the most craziest thing ever.

Like, I, yeah, I don't know.

I mean, there's just,

we had Taylor on.

She opened up a lot about her version of this night.

She expressed extreme remorse and regret for all of her actions.

So I don't want us to like talk about this in a way of like, it was just more so I was curious on your side and how you remembered that night to have happened.

Yeah.

And I mean, I could go into detail, but like I do feel kind of bad.

Like, and that's what's really sad though, too, is because I don't know, like, I do feel like now it's, it's hard for me because I get a lot of people that are like, it was him.

He was the one that did this and provoked her and pushed her to this thing.

Sure.

Well, I don't want to relay the past, as Nelly had mentioned.

It sounds like it was a regrettable night

for everyone.

But that obviously wasn't the end of you two.

No.

Right.

And I think what I'd like to spend the rest of our time talking about, because Taylor's not here.

And I hope someday to kind of have this conversation with her, maybe with the both of you together someday.

But like, you know, watching you this season, season two, it like, I, I just, like, my heart breaks for both of you.

Right.

Cause I see love between the two of you yeah you know and now that you have a child together being a new father myself you know natalie and i just like the family like we're so protective of our family i think sometimes couples can lose themselves being too protective of the family because you know we you know you have a kid it's about the kid and you want to keep the unit but like you still have to prioritize each other and keep the spark alive but that aside you know you guys seem like you're torturing each other.

And I, you know, from an outsider looking in, and there's way more I don't know about your guys's relationship than no but yeah my best guess is like you're both at fault

you both torture each other yes you you both have moments of antagonizing the other person I don't know the full scale of what Taylor is suffering through but she's opened up this season about her her trauma with her father yeah It's an incredibly sad story she told this season, the only time and the first time meeting her father.

You know, my wife has opened up about her father issues and just how demoralizing that that can be to someone and the impact that can have on your entire childhood and just the trauma that can be.

You obviously just opened up about your addiction and your trauma.

So you both come from this place of extreme hurt and this place of extreme pain.

And I just want to focus on like, you know, like, I guess before we get into it, like, do you think Taylor is your new drug of choice?

Yeah, a lot of people say that.

I mean, clearly there's probably a side to it where it feels that that way.

Like it's, and again, that might come back to the feels like the way for you or appears that way in terms of like why me or so many people online like have asked you that question or presented that question.

Yeah, probably both.

I mean, but here's the side that like, yeah, again, there, the context of me and Taylor's relationship, if you knew everything,

it would all make a thousand times more sense.

And that's like the thing is it's, you know, you're getting these like bits and pieces and you're getting Taylor where, you know, it's whether it's a scene or, you know whether she's triggered and super upset at me for good reason for a lot of the stuff like I get it like I did and like and especially given her background and like her daddy issues like the things I did were hurting the you know the parts in her and those things being like what was shown season two in terms of like you not coming fully clean with the early stages of your relationship and what seemed to be like a i don't know nowadays everyone's in these situationships and no one's defining things.

And there's always like this gray area of like, we're dating, but we're not together.

We're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend and girlfriend and yada, yada, yada.

Is that like kind of what your reasoning is for your initial decisions for why you forget about what you did or didn't tell Taylor, but I want to more focus on your actions of like the women that you were hanging out with, hooking up with.

Yeah.

Why were you in your from your perspective, why were you doing what you were doing in that period of time?

yeah no great question i think for me during that time like when i first when i first hung with taylor even again that like taylor was just going through all all of his stuff right so like taylor like the you know the first thing she's like told me was like i'm not ready for any relationship for a long time so i knew that right from the gate and and i didn't expect that from taylor it's not like i expected her to be like ready to just jump into a relationship and not only that but i was also coming from the whole other side for me too, to where I was kind of like, I don't know what I want either, but I am the type of person where I crave love.

I want, like, I, I love love.

And there's a part where I always feel like maybe I'll never find it.

I'm like, I'm always like, I was like, I don't know if I'll ever find it, but like, I want it so bad.

And when I did start hanging with Taylor, I realized right away that I was like, oh, she's like, she's so cool.

And I wasn't sure.

Like, I didn't know what she was going to be like.

And I feel like our personalities and just like who we are as people, it was just like a really cool bond and connection.

And if I'm being 100% honest, there was a big part of me, like even, even some of the girls that were involved, like during that time, for example, like, you know, I, again, like coming from my background, I never dated.

I've never dated like ever.

Like I married my high school sweetheart.

I don't even know if I went on a date before that.

So like married my high school school sweetheart was on drugs, like never dated, moved to Utah, the capital dating world of the century.

Like every single person is like, just date 50 girls, like just be going on dates and do this and that.

So I don't think I really had a good guidance of how to even navigate that side of things of like, how do I do this?

of like taking these girls out, but also, you know, not screwing things up and being like a piece of shit.

And so like some of those girls, like there was, there was already like a lead up of things, right?

Like, so like, I already took one girl out like, like once or twice or hung with her a few times with my group of friends.

Like the other girl, like I, I took out a couple times.

So like, those were just like things that were already happening.

And then like Taylor was just in the mix of that.

And you were operating under Taylor being like, I'm not ready for anything serious for a while.

So like this is just like a fun.

I imagine y'all were hooking up at this time.

So it was like, this is just a fun, like friends with benefits to blow some steam off.

Yeah.

And you want to know the funniest part?

I have never asked a girl, like, just based off of my personality, like, especially in the beginning.

But like, I remember I was so, I couldn't read Taylor ever.

And I was asking Taylor questions.

Like, I felt like a, like a girl.

Like, I was like, what am I to you?

Like, I'm like, like pretty early on i've just like what are you wanting with me because i just i don't know and and i could tell something inside of me liked her like like i i knew it and it scared me really bad and so there was also that part of i didn't want her to hurt me like i was like i feel like you're gonna hurt me and that's the sad part because i was one that hurt her and i think part of that was maybe me just kind of uh maybe even a little bit of like sabotaging it.

Just kind of like because I was so afraid of how much I liked Taylor and how afraid I was of her and knowing that I didn't know really what she wanted or like if this could even be a thing.

And during that time, she was still talking to the man she had an affair with.

Like, and I like, I'm not stupid.

Like, I can obviously like.

read those things.

I still knew there was something going on there that it just kind of put me in a spot of I didn't feel like I could almost, well, I could have, but like I didn't really necessarily want to give her 100% of me because I felt I was like afraid of that.

I didn't, I didn't want to get like hurt by that because that's how I am.

When I'm all in, I'm all in.

And so that's what led to some of those dumb mistakes in that beginning stages there.

You know, and she knew about both of them, by the way, like before we dated.

The thing that I did was I just lied.

Well, I just left out certain details.

Lied.

Yes, I lied.

I lied.

I did.

I lied.

Someone say lied.

No, well, I was just explaining.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Well, no, particularly when it comes to those things, because, you know, there's just the world is full of people who say things like, I didn't tell you because I didn't want to be mad.

And I'm sure that comes from a place of honesty.

I don't doubt that you didn't want someone to be mad or people didn't want to be mad, but they presented in a way that I was thinking of you.

Yeah.

No, no, 100%.

Because the truth is, you're not thinking of them.

You're thinking of yourself and how you don't want to put yourself.

You don't want to get in trouble you know this way we didn't want to tell our parents why we did or didn't do it because you knew you'd get punished for it so you didn't tell them and yeah you know exactly and like i was just meaning more the detail side of it and like yeah again i mean a lie is a lie like i i i screwed up like i i i know i did it wrong what do you think it's gonna take for you and taylor to be in like a healthy relationship that you would want your son to one day be in

what have like individually or for me and Taylor to be in?

For you and Taylor.

Like, what would have to change?

What would have to happen?

Well, one of them would have been me to be honest.

And I have now, it's been a really cool experience for me.

It's been the worst experience ever for me.

But if you want to talk about like a massive learning experience and just kind of like finally seeing that, I've never really understood that.

Like I, you know, in my head, again, yeah, I was justifying that.

Like I, and it was really easy for me to do it in my head because I was like, this poor girl's suffering.

Like when I I was dating her, I was like, I don't want to like add any more fuel to that.

You also have a history of justifying your actions.

So, I'm sure that's natural.

Yeah.

And that's like, that's a total, you know, addicts are known for being liars.

That's like a big thing.

You get really good at lying and justifying that stuff.

And the weird part is, though, even when I was dating, like before Taylor, even when I moved to Utah, I was very brutally honest with everyone, like with every girl I dated, anything.

Like, I didn't even care because I was like, I'm just going to tell you how it is.

Like, I don't know if I want anything.

Do what you want with that.

And with Taylor, because I knew I liked her, that went out the window.

I was like, oh no, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I want to tell you this.

Like, I don't know if I want to say this.

And

that's where I just,

yeah, that it

sucks because there is is a part of me where i feel like maybe and i don't know if it would have changed anything because there was a lot of other stuff going on that in my eyes i just i don't know if it would have changed but again it's not even about that it's about yeah just me doing the right thing like and just like staying true to myself and like and i think if i could have just been so honest with her and just been like, hey, I, uh, you know, this is what I did.

I don't know why I did it.

I'm like, I just, I don't know what fear, whatever you want to call it, like me just being a dumbass, but I owe you this of just knowing the truth and to

at least just give you that.

As we sit here today, does Taylor know everything she needs to know about anything she would care to know?

Yeah, Taylor knows everything she needs to know right now.

And it's my understanding that it took a while to get there.

It took a very long time.

How many lies does Taylor feel like you have told her in that process?

There was four.

Well, I mean, four of like, well, there was two that were actually like in the relationship.

Sure.

And then, you know, the two were before we dated, but the two when I was in the relationship.

Well, I, well, gosh, I guess I can't even say that because she broke up with me.

So technically, no, I wasn't even dating her.

It's good about, yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah yeah but just i'm just saying but like that like even the lies there like so those were two to where we were actually like in that prop like in the relationship phase and yeah one of those lies is really fresh right now and that one

is uh

yeah that one hurt me and it and and again it's like so can you elabor can you i don't i can't really elaborate on it too much is this like a season three situation no this is um

well i don't know we'll see man it's uh it's just yeah it's like that one kind of hurt me what do you mean hurt you well meaning just that the it hurt me to lie about it and the context of everything changes a lot too and i think that's the big part of it is even right now like i i can't give you the context of it i can't like about about me and taylor i can't do it why because you want to protect yes and i and that is all i've ever done and and it and i think that's why it's always been so hard for me because it has always felt like I have never been able to tell

what Dakota has actually experienced throughout this because it matters.

Like it does.

It changes a lot.

I don't doubt that, you know, because like, you know, I've gotten to know Taylor and I find her incredibly charming and sweet.

And at the same time, I also like have a lot of empathy for her.

But like, and by her own admission, she can be toxic.

You know, she has a toxic side.

I feel like if Taylor were sitting here, I could say that to her face and I feel like she could acknowledge that.

Yeah.

Would you agree with that?

That Taylor can be toxic?

Yeah.

And that she would acknowledge that.

Yes.

Okay.

And I don't doubt that, like I said, I think you've tortured each other.

Yeah.

And I don't know what you can't share.

And I want to respect that.

But when you say, you know, I don't think a lot of people understand what Dakota's been through.

Without knowing the detail, I'm going to give you that.

I know, like, there's things that you've probably had to protect the people you love.

There's probably context people are missing.

This is a show that you're on that are watched by women.

This is a show that people are listening to that primarily has a women audience.

Listen, in 2025, I'm sure there are times that you and I, we could sit there and have, you know, get together and sometimes feel like maybe people don't understand our plight, that maybe we don't get the benefit of the doubt in situations, right?

And I want to acknowledge all that and give you all that.

But do you still think there are things, regardless of that, like, could you be holding yourself more accountable given the whatever the challenges you guys have faced?

And I guess what I'm saying, you know, maybe to give it some context.

Yeah.

Last week, Taylor was supposed to be here and supposed to be part of a group interview.

She didn't show up.

I got the impression there was some drama between the two of you that ultimately led to that happening.

And I'm sure Taylor is playing her role in it.

I'm sure she is doing things.

that maybe isn't antagonizing you or getting you riled up and playing to your triggers.

But I want to focus on

you.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I'm also getting the sense that you're doing the same, that you both at different times are still your own worst enemies.

And there's these pivotal moments.

Maybe she's missing you and she needs the comfort of Dakota.

And maybe you're missing Taylor and you needed the comfort of Taylor.

And you guys are giving in to your weaknesses of temptations.

You know, a lot of this season where you guys, you're still hooking up and you guys say you're done.

And like, you know, we've seen the photos from Stagecoach.

We're looking at each other's other's faces i'm like they fucked that night um

no we didn't

but man to man i just like for someone who has the strength to lock themselves in a hotel room being addicted to fentanyl and and go through relapse why can't you do quote unquote the right thing and because i sometimes i feel like the key to maybe you and taylor being happy in the long run is having the strength to say no to Taylor in the short run.

Even if Taylor is reaching out to you and saying, I want Dakota, maybe you have to be the person who says that's not healthier for us right now.

And in addition to that, not have your moments of weaknesses

where you're doing the exact same potentially when I'm getting the sense that maybe you do.

Is this all fair?

I mean, if you want the actual statistic numbers there, I mean, I would say it's about 98% her.

Okay.

So that's.

Okay, but then why can't you say no?

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, okay.

So for me, like, if you're talking about like this side of it, like, and again, you're right.

This is, by the way, this, this is 100% on me too.

Like, as far as I, I'm in charge of my life.

Yeah.

I like at any moment, I can be like, Dakota, stop.

Like, stop, stop.

You're, you're just continuing the cycle of this.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I guess her excuse was she, she wants to trust you.

She wants to be with you.

You heard her.

Yeah.

She wishes she could be with you.

But there's that part of her that every time she gives in to being around you, there's that voice that says, You can't trust him.

Men hurt you your whole life.

From the moment you were born, you can't trust

men.

And you've done nothing to alleviate that fear or pain.

Yeah.

And I think that is, yeah, again, that's the part where, yeah, I didn't show up right.

Like I, I 100% failed in that area.

When do you want to start

being the person?

Well, right now, right now, in this moment,

i have nothing i that like that she has it all what do you mean by that like meaning anything like like any of those secrets or anything that you know that i lied to her about or you know didn't give her full details like she has everything right now okay and again you want and then if i am being honest and i know a lot of people from like a like a viewer point of view and you might understand this but having everything aired out to the world is a lot different than just going to a person you care about or your family and telling them something.

Like you want to talk about fear.

That's the scariest feeling in the world because,

and then doing it with a show,

you don't like it.

You don't have any control over.

Yeah.

You don't have, if they're missing something, it's like, that's not how it was.

And that to me was really hard to grasp.

That was hard to understand that.

I was like, I don't want to be torched to the world for it.

I just want to have like a moment with you where I can do this, like where I can talk to you.

I have like a safe place to talk.

But that's not the case.

And if you know Taylor,

it's to the world.

And that's just how she is.

Like, and that's her thing.

And that's what she's known for is like, it will be, you know, if there's something that she knows, she's going to share it.

And that's a really, it's scary sometimes that's it scares me to death is that why you're kind of protecting this issue that y'all are currently trying to work through yeah i mean yeah there's

yeah and it's just like a it's a long thing but like again the like the end of the day and taylor taylor has admitted this too like and she'll like she's admitted it to me she might not admit it to her friend she might not admit it on camera we have hurt each other both like really bad you don't think think she'd admit that?

I don't know.

Maybe she would.

I always get, I don't know, dude.

I'm always feeling like every time I see Taylor, I can't tell.

It's like I, sometimes I feel like she's ready to kill me when she sees me, or she's kind of nice.

So, like, that's like, I believe that.

I think you're a trigger for her.

Yes.

You know, I also think she loves you.

Yeah.

You know, I also think she wishes she could be with you.

She's clearly torn.

You know, I just,

what I want for you is to find the strength to be whatever rock she needs and not allow her to use you as a trigger.

And I think there's it from an outside looking in.

Yeah, give me some advice on that.

Well, it seems like

give me like a couple things.

Well, I mean, you love her.

From an outside.

Well, you, I mean, listen, I've been in those situations.

We all have.

I think everyone listening knows what it's like to be in that like toxic relationship.

You can't, you can't kick someone.

You know, you know, you're not supposed to be together or something's wrong, but you can't get rid of each other.

But like, again, you have faced harder times.

Yeah.

You have survived near-death situations.

And it sounds like Taylor is really hurting right now in a lot of reasons.

And again, you are, you are a trigger for her.

And it seems like you're a trigger for her more than she's a trigger for you.

I don't doubt she triggers you, but like, she's been very honest about her relationship with men in general.

Yeah.

And you're a man.

Yes.

You know,

and like, you know, my wife has opened up to me about her issues.

And so I take great pride and responsibility to know that, well, it's not my fault.

And while I wasn't there in times of trauma that she experienced, I have to hold myself to a higher standard and be there for her

because of what has happened.

And I've accepted that challenge knowing, you know, when I met Nellie, she was pretty open pretty quickly about what she's been through.

You know, and I could have been like, that's too much for me.

And I don't,

it's bagging, you know, whatever.

But I, you know, I couldn't just say, well, you deal with it on your own.

I don't want any part of that.

It's like, you're, if you're going to be my wife, if I'm going to be your husband, if you're going to, if we're going to be a couple,

I have to do whatever I can to not be that trigger.

Yeah.

You know, even, and I have my shit.

You know, I've only dated women.

Right.

And so women have only, you know, when it comes to people who have caused me the most emotional pain in my life, it's women.

Yeah.

Same.

Yeah.

But I can't use that as an excuse, especially with my wife, who pain or not, like what Nally has experienced through men, what I've experienced is nothing compared to that.

Right.

You know, and the childhood I've had,

I've been compared to what Nally was raised in is a night and day difference.

And

I want you to try to focus on being her rock, even if

that means you can't have her.

in the way that you would like to have her.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

I think you need to start saying no.

Right.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

Cause, cause this is the thing.

So me and Taylor have the same therapist.

Yeah.

So it's it's

good for you guys.

You guys are together though.

So

but uh so like that you know, it takes a lot of work.

Yeah, it does.

And that's the thing.

And so like even just with that alone, like that concept of like, yeah, like I need to be her rock.

I need to be there for her.

I think the part that was so hard, and this is what I've talked to like, you know, our therapists about a lot is I am being pushed away completely.

Like, and this, this has been for a very long time.

So like

for me, like in any relationship, right?

If you were to, if, you know, if you like, let's say you hurt his trust, okay.

You did something bad.

Like for you to show Nick that like you can be trusted again.

The only way to do that is by you showing up for him and showing him by action, by doing certain things to gain that trust back.

You prove you're truthful by telling the truth.

Yes.

And then you gain your trust back.

And I think the part that was really hard is I've never, how it's felt for me is I've never felt like I've actually had Taylor ever.

Yeah.

Because I've, whether it's me wanting to show her in ways or have something, like, like Taylor's been broke up with me, just so you guys know, for 11 months.

True.

So it's, it's.

How old is your son?

He's almost 14 miles.

And so it has been like, that was the part where it was really hard.

And I was trying to like figure that out with like the therapist.

I was like, hey, like, if I'm wanting to like try to like show her or like have something, but at the same time, it's like,

I'm not even her boyfriend right now.

See, I think that's the part I think.

I'm disconnected.

Yeah.

Well.

I don't think it's your intention.

No, I'm confused.

No, it's just more what I'm hearing from you underneath it all is I need to be with her and we need to be in a relationship for me to be able to show her the type of partner I can be.

And I'm suggesting you don't need to be.

And I'm suggesting that, well, hey, like for better or worse, you two have, well, for better, you two have a kid together.

Yeah.

And regardless of what happens as a romantic couple, for the next 17 years.

You guys will, I guess, be in each other's life to a certain extent.

And you can still be a support system.

You can be an example to her.

You can be a great father to your son.

You can be, you can be someone she can always count on.

Yeah.

Even if she doesn't 100% accept you back as a partner.

And I think you are operating under this premise almost a little bit of as a victim.

And I don't doubt that you've been victimized in this relationship.

And I think you both have.

And I think you sometimes lead with your pain that has

been caused by this relationship as opposed to just accepting the reality of this situation is that whether Taylor can want to be with you or not, she can't.

Not in a healthy way.

You know, she hasn't forgiven you yet.

The wounds are too fresh.

And I think you, you know, and but she, she's, you know, like you said, 98% of the time she's reaching out to you and you give in.

You give in to the part of you that wants her back.

And I get it.

I've been there.

You know, like what I'm what I'm suggesting to you is a very difficult task.

You know, maybe as difficult as anything you've been through.

But I think you're capable.

I mean, if you can lock yourself in a hotel room and get clean, I think you can do the thing that I'm suggesting you might need to do to get the thing that you say you want to get.

Yes.

And that is that is the exact advice that my therapist gave me.

She was like, Dakota, there is nothing you can do right now, but literally just say

no.

Like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to keep sleeping with you.

I'm not going gonna like keep doing, you know, seeing you.

Like if, you know, just to focus on me being a co-parent and letting that just be for now and still showing up in the ways that I can in like a healthy way and being supportive and doing all of those things you just said.

And yeah, I think that that is the hardest part is again, it's, it's so hard because I love her.

And it's like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to lose her.

And part of her wound is abandonment.

Right.

So if she is reaching out to me, it makes me feel shitty sometimes if I say no to that.

Because I'm like, that's your biggest fear is me saying no.

Yeah, but I think you're old enough to know the difference.

And I think you're old enough and mature enough to know that.

And I'm sure she might even, in the heat of the moment, use it against you.

I might, she might even throw it in your face.

I'm sure she has.

But it's going to take someone

being healthy with a healthy mindset.

Yeah.

And I just get the sense, you know, again,

you have conquered some pretty dark demons.

And maybe you're just at a place

that she isn't yet.

Yeah.

And she might need you to be stronger than you're giving yourself credit for.

Yeah.

No, you're right.

And yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I've been told too.

They're like, it's not going to be Taylor that's going to do it.

You're going to have to do this.

Like, you got to just do it.

So how bad do you want it?

Bad.

Yeah.

So like that, and that is what I'm like, I mean, in the last five days or whatever, I have done it.

Okay.

And so, and I hope that I can like keep with that.

And I feel like, especially right now, just given everything, I think I do feel like a big shift in me right now of just wanting to really make sure I do things in a different way moving forward and just like

standing my ground and knowing that if I do keep doing this, I mean, it's insanity.

It is literally insanity.

It's just like we're doing the same thing over and over again, and the result is not changing.

And so it's like, I mean, they teach us that like in rehab, you know?

And so, yeah, it is something that I know I need to just do.

But the part I think that has always made it so hard for me is the, it's the kid part.

You know, I take the kid out of, like, you take my son out of it.

The whole thing changes.

But I, and I know there, and I'm saying it's like, well, you got to do what's best.

Like, you know, this isn't what's best.

I get all of that.

I understand all of that.

But it does not mean it's not the hardest thing in the world too.

Cause everything now affects my son, too.

So whether that's co-parenting, me not getting to see my son as much, like this is, this is my first kid.

Yeah.

And I've practically had to be doing this co-parenting thing right out the gate.

I don't doubt it's a challenge.

Yeah, it sucks.

But, but it, yeah.

You, you know, late nights and some of the shenanigans that you guys seem to be doing, I don't know how much your son has to do with that part.

Well, to be honest, sometimes.

I'm sure big picture, I get it.

Well, no, it just allows me to

be around him.

You know, different things like that.

So it's like long game, man.

Long game.

There you go.

It's the long game where it's like it's, it's not doing any, it's not doing anything.

You have the benefit of right now.

Like Natalie and I were talking about this.

You know, we're connecting with our daughter in ways, you know, especially for me now.

Like Natalie has been connecting with River since the moment she found out she was pregnant.

And it's different for dads, right?

There's a lot of things right now River's not going to remember.

You know, we're gone for two days.

It's harder on us

than it is on River.

Oh, yeah.

You know, she's not going to remember us coming and going and things like that.

Soon, your son is going to remember more things.

So like, I understand it's hard not to be around your son.

And yeah, I mean, like, I'm, I'm so grateful for what Nally and I have in this moment that I don't have to co-parent and I don't have to be without her and when I'm out when I'm away from her the longest I've been away from her was three nights.

It's hard.

It's brutal.

It is.

But the good news is she won't, like, she doesn't remember that now.

Yeah.

You got to think about

three or four years from now.

And if you put the work in now.

Yeah, you're right.

And that, yeah, and you're right.

And regardless of even what happens with me and Taylor, like, and I do know that again, it goes back to that whole thing.

It's like, in the moment, it feels like it's the end of the world.

Like, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'll never, I'll never have happiness again.

I'll never, I'll never find someone again or be able to

have a family.

You know, I'll never have like a full, like, a family.

And I think that's just something I've always craved so bad my whole life that I just I want that more than anything.

And it's, you know, it's not, it's not working.

And maybe not working right now.

And which is, and that's fine.

And, and it is very much out of my control to where now I need to just do the right thing.

Yeah, because like, you know,

I get it, right?

But what you don't want to be five years from now

is looking back.

You want to look back.

If it doesn't, if it doesn't work out with you in Taylor, you want to know that you did everything you could do.

Yeah.

Right.

And right now, if you didn't change, if you change nothing about what you're doing, minus these past several days that you said, you know, you're really trying to put it in that effort.

But let's say you goes back to whatever patterns you've been demonstrating, the two of you for the past, say, 11 months.

What you're going to think is,

it was too hard.

Oh, I wish I was stronger.

I wish I was this.

I wish I did more.

Because right now you're saying it's too hard.

It's like I could have, it's, oh, but it's hard.

And I, I want to be around my son.

And I get all that.

Yeah.

But five years from now, you won't be saying that to yourself.

You'll be wishing you had the strength and the guts to make the sacrifice in the short term because you'd be wondering, if I would have done all those difficult things, if I would have said no to Taylor, if I would have just focused on being a good co-parent and being a good father and being the emotional strong person in our dynamic, what if?

Would have that have changed?

And you don't want to be that person.

Give me some dog.

Yeah, I actually love that.

Yeah, you're right.

That's

spot on.

He's a good guy.

Great guy.

Yeah, that is, yeah, I do.

I actually...

I agree 100% with that.

And I think that would be something I would look back on, especially because I do feel like I do have a guilty conscience.

And I think it would eat away at me down the road.

So, and I don't want that either.

So,

this would be a great place to end it, but I do want to ask, and I hope I'm not triggering you, but

we had Macy on the other day, and she is not a fan of yours.

Oh,

you're not a fan of hers.

Uh-uh.

And let me just say, let me just say, I don't not like anybody.

I don't not not like people.

Okay.

I love

people.

That is like, and anybody who knows me knows that.

The part that I think is hard, and I can't even blame Macy for this.

And this is a funny thing.

Like, she just said something about this too, like how, oh, every time we're together, it's like, he's always nice to me and we like get along and blah, blah, blah.

And to be honest with you, that's the truth.

That's not me faking that either.

It's like,

I don't not want to like you.

i actually get along with macy when we hang out and we talk and i'm i'm around her

but the part that drives me nuts is it's like i just feel like she sits and just bashes me 24 7.

yeah i i get that impression too uh and i'm like okay

Taylor's her friend.

She's, you know, a girl's girl.

Macy's opened up about some of the men in her life and what they've done to her.

So I imagine you can have empathy for that.

And I think you're just a trigger, you know, and then you see, and then, you know, quite honestly, everything we just talked about, she is not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

No.

And she sees a person who's not doing everything he can do.

Yeah.

And she sees you playing a big part in this toxic relationship that you have with Taylor.

Yeah.

Right.

And I mean, yeah.

And it goes back to the same thing, though.

So it's like, you know, obviously, like, hurt Taylor.

It's like, I know that, I mean, you know, she's not, you know, in those moments and in different things, she's obviously probably just not saying great things about me.

And so for Macy, you know, she's just the one that's sitting there hearing all this.

But I think the part that just like always bothers me kind of is it's like my friends I vent to, or even a husband on the show, it's like, guess what I'm also doing?

Like, hey, you know, just

the only part I would challenge you on is as I'm imagining you're thinking, I don't know why she hates me.

I'm not doing anything to her, and there's nothing I can do.

She just hates me.

No.

I see, I am like, I have two sides to me right here.

One side I want to just go off right now because

I have very good reason in a lot of these things where it's like, Macy, I mean, I just go based up.

Let's go off the show.

I mean, no offense, but Macy,

what's your storyline?

Your storyline is literally bashing me.

It's bashing me the whole time.

That's what she does.

It's like, it's like, I'm Taylor's friend.

Dakota's bad.

And that is what she has ran with.

That's what she does.

I mean, even taking like, and I feel like here's the other part to it as well.

Me and Taylor, as far as when it comes down to like opening up and sharing things that probably shouldn't be shared a lot of the time.

You guys are definitely the most vulnerable.

And there you go, which I mean, and if you don't think these other couples have things that they're just,

I'm not going to share it.

Okay, cool.

That's fine.

But like, you feel like she's being a bit of a hypocrite.

A thousand percent.

And I feel like I am like her,

like it's just, it's perfect.

It's perfect for her.

It's like, I'm Taylor's friend.

They're always fighting.

We hate him.

And then like, I think now she's recruited Michaela, so, which is so weird because I've always loved Michaela.

I don't have an issue with him.

I don't have an issue with any of them.

I just prove them wrong.

Be that person we just talked about.

Yeah.

That things will change.

Well, and I do that too with her even.

It's like I'm never like sitting there like fighting.

Don't do it to get their approval.

Don't do it to get them to like you.

Just do it because five years from now, you don't want to have regret.

Yeah.

And I really feel like the rest of it will play out.

Do you think they see behavior from you

that they're not fans of?

Like, do you think it's, it can't be just everything Taylor relays to them?

Like, have they, or is it?

I mean, I don't know how much I can share it like i mean like if and these girls let me just say like i i don't doubt that whatever taylor does like they're not gonna they're not giving you the benefit i i don't doubt that i i don't they're not they're not looking to give you a pass never that's clear and so and and yeah and so you know it is one of those things and i think that is something where i i do unfortunately you know like i think i'm i'm obviously like really hard on myself and i think i do have that part in me where i i it bothers me sometimes when people don't like me.

And that's not healthy.

That's not good either, you know?

But like, I really do like people a lot.

And so when someone doesn't like me, it like hurts my feelings.

Prove them wrong.

Yeah.

I'm like, why don't you like me?

And I get it.

I understand it.

Forget about what Taylor's done.

Yeah.

And I do think that's the part you are stuck on

because she has her side, right?

She has shit she needs to work on, be accountable for,

admit to things.

You are not the, you know, there are two sides of the story.

You're half the problem.

She's, I, yeah.

And I think when, when, when, whether it's me right now or people in general coming down on you, your first defense is to kind of be like, I'm not the only bad guy in this situation.

Dude, well, but that's what's so hard is because it's like you have these girls and they're, it's to the world.

So it's like, and then, I mean, you take even Macy's background, like, like she compares me to her abusive ex.

And it's like, those aren't little things to throw around to the public and like put me in that position of being like yeah that's that's your that's a fair point yeah and so like i think that is where i am like i'm a very like

i get very like defensive of that because i'm like how dare you like don't like why would you do that to me oh yeah no i but no you're okay again and and i get what you're saying i'm not i'm not saying like what you're saying is wrong like because you're right i'm just saying like that side of it i think that is where it's hard for me five years from now just remember you don't want to be like

too hard

I'm going to remember that.

Dakota, thanks for coming, first of all.

I know, you know, and I do want to thank you because, and I've said this a lot recently, especially covering the show and talking about you and all the women on the show.

I don't think we appreciate all the things that you guys are willing to do for our entertainment.

You guys are talking about, you know, it's a fun show.

It's a funny show, but you guys, whether you're talking about addiction, whether it's the women talking about some of the abuse they've incurred and everything in between, I really appreciate your guys's vulnerability and the vulnerability you showed today.

And I'm just, I'm rooting for you as a, as man-to-man, as a person.

I'm rooting for you in Taylor, but I see the good in you guys.

And I just really will hope you guys reach your full potential.

Yeah, same.

Thank you, man.

I appreciate that.

And I think, yeah, that's, that's just what I want too.

And I just probably have.

messed that up trying to go about that the right way.

So

I think there's still a, you can always.

I can always change.

You're right.

There's always a new day tomorrow and I can start.

So there you go.

Yeah, I want to work on that.

Very funny.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me, by the way.

Thank you for coming.

Really cool.

I appreciate it.

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