E941 – Going Deeper with Jen and Zac Affleck

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You're crazy.

Jen and Zach, welcome to the Vilefowls.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us.

Stoked to be here.

Welcome back, Jen.

Thank you, Jen.

Welcome, Zach.

How are you?

Finally made it.

Stoked to be here.

Okay, we're very stoked to have you.

So I'm all about upfront expectations, kind of like set the stage of what we can expect this interview.

Watching season two, obviously you didn't finish season two,

but I was really, you know, taken back by your relationship and specifically you, Zach.

And so I was really just kind of fascinated with the relationship.

You guys have been through a lot as a family, both you two with the show.

and the relationships with the women, your extended families.

There's a lot there.

So I would love to focus a lot lot of this conversation and just kind of getting to know you two as people and your relationship.

I want to talk about, Zach, your growth, or at least what I perceive to be some growth on your part.

And then we'll, we'll get into the show a little bit.

I've really been kind of fascinated by you guys, if that's okay.

If that's okay, that's good with you guys.

In fact, I think we would love that even more because I feel like not a lot of people know who we actually are.

And everyone just likes to talk about like Chippendales and sure yeah you know the crazy chippendales the two things that like follow us no matter

what

so we actually uh well we'll ask you no but like uh but yeah i mean you're right because to that end you know what i really love about this particular show going deeper is the ability to get more of the context to to dive deeper you know into these relationships and you guys as characters it's like a blessing and a curse this show is i don't know how you feel about it zach but it i it's my favorite show on tv i'm warming up too.

You women give so much of your lives.

You're so vulnerable.

I think, you know, as fans of reality TV,

and I say this as someone who's been on it before, you know, it's, and we do.

We go on the show, especially our reality recap episodes, and we watch these shows and we snark and we criticize and we make fun.

And that's kind of part of the gig, you know, it's like I'm a sports fan too, right?

Like part of being a sports fan is short for fanatic.

So we watch this stuff so that we can talk about it with our friends and break it down and talk shit and get into it.

But when it comes to reality TV, you know, I think we sometimes forget about the people who are behind the cameras.

And, you know, certainly there's an edit and things like that.

But the blessing, what we get to do here in the Vile Files and going deeper is the opportunity to get to know the people and understand, you know, a little more context about what we are watching on these shows.

And so I thank you guys for coming and showing up because clearly you guys have been a couple that's been highly scrutinized in the first two seasons.

And clearly, it's been a lot.

So I first would like to start with just Jen, like, how are you doing mentally?

You had to leave season two.

I don't know where we are in terms of coming back.

And I imagine you probably can't answer that anyway.

So I'm not going to press you.

But as we sit here today, how is your mental health?

And how are you doing with your pregnancy?

Yeah,

I'm doing way better now.

Physically, I'm not the the best right now because I am in the third trimester and the third trimester is rough.

But

yeah, no, season two, season one and season two was really hard on me.

And yeah, like we we watched season one and immediately started filming season two right after.

So what you see in season two is basically just like what was actually happening.

And um, it was just a lot to navigate.

It's not every day that your relationship gets exposed to the whole world.

And yeah,

I'm like, I don't even know where to start.

Just how you're doing right now.

I'm like, yeah, well, right now I'm doing great.

But

six months ago,

I was not doing okay.

But through therapy and taking time for myself and

focusing on my mental health, I'm in a way better place now.

How did you guys decide as a couple?

and what ultimately led to the decision for you guys to take a leave of absence?

I don't know if that's what it's called from the show, but basically leave the show and at least, at least for the time being, put a pause on your being a part of Mom Talk and Mormon Lives.

Yeah, it kind of

I

feel like starting season two, I was already dealing with a lot and I kind of just showed up just wanting to be vulnerable and sharing the truth because that's the whole reason why I started or wanted to be on reality TV in the first place was I wanted to be vulnerable.

I wanted to do the hard thing and sharing my story.

Obviously, I didn't expect season one to turn out the way that it did,

but I have always been that way.

I've always wanted to do the scary thing and coming back was the scary thing.

And I, unfortunately, it didn't end well.

We were going through a lot.

And then you see in season two that I find out that i'm pregnant and it just became too much and sometimes like that happens in life and for me i

uh it was kind of like the last straw and i i feel like i spent a lot of time suffering but not really vocalizing that and it got to a point where it was just too much and i said you know what i think i need to take a step back and the

if it wasn't for the pregnancy i don't think i would have done that because at that point, it no longer just became about me.

It became about this baby and protecting this baby.

And so I really needed to do that.

And

yeah, I learned so much.

This has been the most impactful pregnancy journey that I've experienced.

And I'm grateful how everything turned out.

It's obviously going to be really hard watching back season two.

We still haven't watched it.

But there's just so much to learn.

And I feel like my purpose in life is

just learning from all experiences you can learn in life.

And

through that, I hope to progress as a better version of myself.

And I obviously have made a lot of mistakes.

I think we all have, but I think that's just part of the journey.

So what was the hardest part about ending season one, going straight into season two?

Was it everything that had happened in Vegas?

Was it all of the women's kind of reaction to what had happened and them, you know, kind of giving their opinions on your relationship?

Or at that point, had you even heard the public's opinion on your marriage?

I think it was both.

I think

we went through a lot after Vegas.

And yeah,

it was really hard having the whole world

vocalize their opinions.

And I think there was a lot of truth that came out after Vegas that I think we both didn't realize was happening in our relationship because of what was traditionally taught to us.

And it made us take a step back and kind of look in the mirror.

And

anyone who's gone through issues in their marriage, it's not easy.

Like when you go through a hard patch and there can be a lot of factors.

But in this case, it wasn't just like, oh, we're going to marriage counseling.

It was like, it was so much more magnified because our whole life had been exposed.

And so,

yeah, maybe you can.

Yeah.

I feel like you've done a lot of PR training.

You've got really good answers to all of this.

I don't.

I'm just going to like speak my truth and my reality and probably be a little bit more

just straight up about like what we went through.

We went through hell, to be honest.

Season one had a lot of ups and downs.

And unfortunately, just kind of how it worked out was it only showed a lot of the negative.

And not to say that there wasn't a lot of things that needed to change in our marriage, but unfortunately, you didn't get to see some of the other awesome sides of our marriage.

And so I was in the middle of medical school and season one comes out and there was so many emotions.

We have, I had family and friends reaching out to me being like, why are you married to her?

You should leave her.

She has the whole world saying, why are you married to this crazy narcissist?

You should leave him.

We're just trying to tune out the noise and fight for our family and be like, we know.

Why we got married in the first place, trying to like get back to those things.

We have these two beautiful kids that we want to fight for.

Obviously, two healthy houses are better than one toxic one, but like we knew that we could work through this.

And so I just made the decision that like, and I was telling Nick this the other day, that just I, I decided to step away from medical school.

Like there was no way I was going to do medical school and support Jen in her career.

And so I decided I'm going to step away from this and I'm going to fight for my family.

I'm going to fight for my wife and try to make the changes I need to to be.

the person that she deserves.

And that took a lot of therapy, a lot of ups and downs.

And we're not perfect.

Like to be completely transparent with you, we got in a huge fight last night because we're married and that that happens sometimes.

I think the difference is we now have some skills and the ability to communicate in a different way and just the way we navigate that.

And we're more of a team now.

But yeah, we were going through a ton season one and there was a lot that led up to Vegas that was never shown.

There's a lot of resentment on my end and a lot of miscommunication on Jen's end.

And it just kind of led to this massive explosion, which was unfortunately the biggest fight in our marriage.

And I'm embarrassed for how I acted, but it is what it is.

And like, we just have to keep moving forward and fighting for each other each day.

And you'll also see that in season two.

Like, you'll see like my imperfections because, right,

like I wasn't,

I thought like after Vegas, like, oh, I'm perfect.

Like, he's the one with issues.

And it wasn't until like.

after season two and going to therapy where I was like, oh, I've got issues too.

I've got flaws that I need to work on too.

And that's very

unpack all of this, but I do want to rewind a little bit and just kind of like start at the beginning.

And like, how, how did you guys meet?

For one, I'd love to hear that quick story.

And then I would love to

know how you guys decided as a couple to be a part of mom talk and specifically Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, because I see the draw for you and the Mom Talk community and all the influencers, but you seem, like, the perception is you were never on board.

You seem incredibly uncomfortable with this whole thing.

And I'm just wondering, as a couple, how did you even agree in the first place to be a part of it?

But first, how did y'all meet?

Yeah.

Do you want me to tell the story of the US?

You're better at it.

Okay.

He's better at shit.

So there's a Mormon dating app called Mutual.

It's kind of like Tinder, but it's just for Mormons.

And I was moving after my freshman year of college.

I'd just gotten back from my LDS mission to the Dominican Republic.

And he was like, where are the Latinas at?

Yeah.

I kind of got the Latina fever fever and was like looking for someone spicy.

But anyways,

I was on that app and I was the first person that showed up on Jen's app.

She like swiped up or whatever and I sent her a message and we actually met the night before I moved to Hawaii.

And it was kind of a crazy story.

I met her, didn't think much.

Well, I actually texted her a few times and said, hey, can we go on a date?

And like, she ignored me, but I was like, this girl's super pretty.

Like, I'm going to shoot my shot again.

Yeah.

I was like,

I was like, you're about to move to Hawaii and you want to hang out?

Like, why else would you want to hang out?

I was like, no, thanks.

But

she finally agreed to go on a date the night before I left to Hawaii.

And so we went and we talked.

And this sounds like cheesy or corny to say, but it like literally was the most significant night of my life.

And I went home that night and I told my mom, I'm like, I just met my future wife.

And she's like, you're sleep deprived.

You're crazy.

You're moving to Hawaii.

Like, you don't know what you're talking about.

And I was like, I went and told my buddies at the airport, like, I just met my future wife.

And they're like, dude, you're crazy.

Like, what are you talking about?

Anyways, I moved out to Hawaii.

Where are you moving to Hawaii?

Just for fun for the summer to go surf with buddies.

Okay.

Yeah.

We worked in a shop out there.

And just, yeah, love surfing.

But anyways, while I was out there,

the rule that I had with my buddies is that we weren't going to date.

Like we weren't going to let like girls ruin the summer.

But I just, I don't know.

I couldn't stop thinking about Jen.

So after like two weeks, I was like, do you want to come out here?

She ended up coming out and we spent a bunch of time together.

And then, yeah, we ended up dating.

And and then Jen was gonna go on an LDS mission after that and she decided to not turn in her papers she kind of gave me an ultimatum go on a reality TV show and stuff that was years later just kidding back then she was gonna go on a mission and she said um i'm not gonna go on a mission and

uh i think we should get married so i started saving up my money i actually took a loan from my dad and bought a ring and proposed and we got married like 10 months later.

How long were you dating for before you got engaged?

Eight months.

Eight months.

Yeah.

And then got married nine months.

Which is actually a long time within.

Most of my buddies were like three months.

Yeah.

I guess side conversation, I didn't, maybe it's my ignorance, but I thought missions for LDS was primarily for young men.

Is that but I didn't realize women also go on missions?

Or is it is it different than the missions you go on?

No, it's 18 months, so it's six months shorter.

It is primarily for men, but women can go.

Like Whitney on the show, she went on a mission.

I'd say like 20, 25% of women.

Is that relatively new for the church?

Like, is it?

No, like my mom, my mom went on a mission.

Yeah.

That's been going on for a long time.

Okay.

Yeah.

The mom talk opportunity comes.

Oh, yeah.

How do we decide as a couple to do this show?

Oh, I was all in.

My manager told me about it.

She's like,

it was also, it was right after.

Taylor went to jail and my manager called me and she's like, hey, they're like recasting for this like Mormon wife show.

Like, would you want to do it?

And at first, I was hesitant, of course, because

everything that had happened with Taylor, I didn't know anyone from Mom Talk, and I was just kind of like, Oh, like, I don't really know what this is about.

Um, and at that point, I was very at a stage in my life that I was trying to keep up with an image.

I was trying to keep up with an image on

my

social media.

And that's a big thing in the Mormon culture.

Like, I do think there's this pressure to look perfect, be perfect.

And I was just kind of like, ah, I don't know if like that would look good for my brand.

Genuinely, I was thinking that.

Like, I don't know like what they're trying to do.

And then they told me it would be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

I was like, oh, like they're, they're, and this was after the Mormon swinging.

So of course I'm like, they're probably going to want to make that about that.

But I, before deciding, um, I had done the, the casting interview and they basically told me I got it.

And I was still hesitant, but then I met up with the girls for the first time.

And I was like, wait, I love this group.

Like, I love these girls.

And yeah,

the rest is history.

And I kind of went in with just being like, you know what?

Like, I do think.

Just to be completely honest, like being married to Zach, I did feel like I wanted to keep up with protecting our image.

Honestly, for like your family, he comes from like a very wealthy family

who are pretty known within like your community.

And like I

did worry about like disappointing his family.

And so there is that worry, but also like I've naturally always been vulnerable and I've always wanted to share my story.

So that I went in with that, that mindset.

And that still is my mindset.

I just want to share my story.

And even if that means I'm showing the ugly, like, uh, then

what about you, Zach?

How did you feel about her enthusiasm for the show?

I feel like it's been like step by step.

I've been able to be more and more vulnerable and like open to this experience and like what we're doing.

I, I never wanted any of this and I never planned on any of this, to be honest.

But kind of what happened is Jen came to me and she said, hey, there's going to be this reality TV show.

It's going to be called Mom Talk.

I'm like, oh, that sounds kind of fun.

Like, what's it about?

Then a few months later, they're like, oh, it's going to be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

I'm like, heck no.

No way I'm doing that.

Like, that sounds.

No, he didn't say heck no.

He said, hell no.

He said, I'm out with it.

Well, I don't think I was swearing at that point.

Yeah.

But yeah.

And then I heard like Taylor was going to be on it.

And I actually loved Taylor and Dakota.

But like at the time, I was being judgmental.

I'm like, oh, I don't want to be on a show with those guys.

Like, that sounds crazy.

And then honestly, like the day before contracts were due, like.

Jen's manager reached out and was like, hey, we got to get the contract signed.

I'm like, I don't really want to do this.

Like, can Jen just do it?

And I'll I'll just not be part of this.

Like, this just doesn't seem like me and something I'd want to do.

And Jen just came to me and she's like, this is something I really want to do.

And this is important to me.

Like, I'm supporting you in medical school and these things that you want to do.

Like, will you support me in this?

And so, then, once we made that decision as a team that we were going to do it, we really did go all in season one.

And we were so vulnerable.

And we shared everything about our religion and our life and our marriage and just all these different things.

Um,

and I honestly think we kind of went a little bit naive into the show, just not really knowing what to expect or what reality TV even is.

Clearly.

You get to episode seven and I'm like

in Vegas.

I'm like, what's going on here?

But yeah.

And then same thing after season one, I was just like, oh, I don't, I don't want to do a season two.

And Jen was like, I, I really want to do a season two.

Like, this is what I want to do.

And I'm, well, I love you.

So I guess, yeah, let's do a season two.

Just as an aside, was it an option for you to do the show by yourself?

Or was the show

saying, saying hey we only want couples and it's either the two of you or none of you no it was definitely an option for me to do it by myself but i well i don't know i i think it could have been but i think they were really interested in the dynamic of like these mormon wives like with their husbands and to be honest the first season there's a couple other couples that were somewhat active but really jen and i were like the most active strongest in the church at the time and so i think they were really intrigued of that dynamic between like one we both came from completely different families and we're just completely different all around and so that yeah they loved that that contrast between us and clearly that's still uh

a controversy yeah so i think they were super interested in seeing how we were both raised how we ended up coming together and just the dynamic of our relationship i want to unpack season one a little bit with the two of you because if if whitney was uh villain number one you were definitely villain number two.

Well, here's the crazy thing.

Right before the show came out, they asked all the girls who the villain is going to be no one said my name like you know we yeah we didn't even really know what to expect but i think i was maybe villain number one honestly i'm sure you felt that i felt i felt that but yeah so well either way you were you were not liked um i certainly know the feeling uh so you know you're not alone in that but you know just to be totally honest you know what what i do love about this show is that you know again it really gets into the weeds about relationships it really on it unpacks a lot of very relatable issues that married couples have to deal with, whether it's religious trauma, whether it's just one person in the relationship wanting one thing and the other person not, like whether you want to go on the show or not.

But there were some things on season one that just, it was hard to watch in terms of you came across as a husband who seemed to only think of his own needs, you know, whether it was medical school, whether it was your gambling problem.

It gave a lot of toxic masculinity, you know, if you will.

And so for one, I'd love to just hear from your point of view, what you felt was

maybe not fairly portrayed or accurate.

But then I'd like to get into what you felt was accurate.

And then I'd love to maybe unpack what changes you guys have made as a couple and more specifically you as a husband and

man.

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack.

I feel like,

and that's what's so hard about this is there is things that were true that were portrayed, some like toxic tendencies that I had.

And not to blame anyone else, like I was raised a certain way.

The cult, the church has a certain culture.

And I had just always kind of seen things one way.

And it was hard for me to open up my mind to like our marriage looking different, for me acting different.

Could you elaborate on what?

Yeah, I just, I think typically, and there's so many things I love about the church.

One thing is, it's like this idea of like the patriarchy or like the husband is like the head of the house is just kind of how how the church is honestly and not to say there's not a lot of great relationships in the church but there is also a lot of toxic ones and i just kind of always seen it as like the man's the one who provides he's the one who makes the money and like the wife is the one who stays at home with the kids and like that's just kind of how it is and so i think a lot of this was like hard for me it was hard for me to kind of yeah see things in a different way and uh i feel like there was a lot of times early on in our marriage and on the show season one where i was selfish and I did think of myself and it was kind of what was Zach's priorities and what did he want to do and I think that's why season two leaving medical school and finally putting Jen in her career first has been so healing for our marriage is because it was the first time that I actually was thinking about her and kind of us more of a family than like what I wanted and what my plans were as far as uh there was also a lot of things on the show that were said that like weren't true as far as like me gambling away my medical school tuition that never happened um what's the truth?

I hadn't even been accepted to medical school when that season was filmed.

So I hadn't, there wasn't even a deposit to pay for school because I hadn't been accepted into a school yet.

Okay.

So a lot of those things that were said by the girls were hurtful and untrue and has led to a lot of backlash on social media, which has been really sad.

And

was there a

savings or a nest egg or a fund that was allocated for medical school that you gambled away?

Or is there there is that anything that like if the women hear this and they and they hear you go well i wasn't even applied to medical school could they be like well you know no no that that is uh that that is one thing that like to this day really hurts me because that is absolutely untrue um i did i was gambling at the time i do i did love to gamble and to be honest with you i sometimes do still gamble with buddies and that's something that jen and i have worked through and the way i go about it and the way we talk about it is a lot different now and sort of uh healing a lot of uh yeah I'm just more respectful.

Like I like betting on sports and occasionally I will still bet on sports and Jen's very aware of that.

And that's just something that we're doing in our marriage.

And like, I'm not afraid to talk about that.

But I think what was happening at the time is there was just a lot of miscommunication.

As far as the whole medical school thing, it also got portrayed on the show that Jen was paying for my medical school, which is, it's also not true.

But it was my plan.

I mean, I had had a conversation with your parents and said, I would like to pay for med school.

I mean, I don't, I don't want to argue with that.

The reality is, is my dad had saved up a bunch of of money.

My dad's a doctor as well.

And he had saved up money.

So if I ever did decide to go to medical school, that was like his giving back to me is he wanted to help pay for that.

And so he had saved that money aside.

And once I did get accepted to medical school, he directly paid that to the school.

That was never money I ever saw or touched.

That was directly from him to the school.

And yeah.

And then once I withdrew from medical school, that wasn't money I got to keep.

That's my dad's money.

And I don't, you know, he's going to do whatever he wants with that.

But that was like something he was doing for his son.

So yeah.

What was his reaction to you dropping out of med school?

Surprisingly, he was, he was really positive and supportive.

I think he saw how dark, like, and,

um, how sad I was and like the dark place I got to.

And I think all he wanted was for Jen and I to be able to work through our marriage.

And like that comes first.

And so I think he was sad because he's like, what are you going to do with your life?

Like they've always been so supportive of it.

But like he said a comment to me the other day that was like, I don't care what you do.

I don't care if you're a park ranger.

I just want you to be, I just want you to be happy.

Like, just do something that's going to make you happy.

And so, I think they've made a lot of progress in the last couple of months.

And just seeing us finally be happy again and see like me be happy because I was in a really dark place for a while.

Um, I think they're finally just happy to see us doing good.

Yeah.

So, Jen, did you ever feel like

Zach's parents ever like blamed you for the show and like the reaction of the fans?

Yes, I definitely would say that.

But I do feel like I

could have navigated season one better for sure.

And I could have been better at communicating.

And obviously you can see in season two that there is lack of communication.

And I do think I was

living in fear a lot of the time.

But it was such a hard place to be in after season one because Part of me felt this guilt for putting my relationship on the show and like exposing that and being the one to like push for that.

But at the same time, I was like, wait a second, like I'm not responsible for how Zach acted and his actions.

So there is a lot of just like guilt in me feeling like, oh, I did play a huge part in this.

And then part of me was like, no, actually, like, I'm not responsible for this.

And like, your son is responsible for this.

And I do feel like I was blamed based off of some comments that were made from like

what's shown on social media.

Everybody has seen it.

And yeah, no, I was definitely blamed, but I definitely think that everyone has learned from this situation.

And I'm so grateful because I also feel like his family has been able to take a step back and also see

like

everything.

Just, I mean, again, being like fully transparent, I think what was really hard about season one was I think my family was defensive of me.

Not even necessarily my parents.

It was more like siblings and cousins and people who like actually know me who I think they saw like, yeah, Zach made a huge mistake, but they also have seen me my whole life.

And they're like, yeah, he's a good kid.

Like he did, he acted immature and like he did something really dumb, but like, that's not the full context of like who he is.

So they were defensive of me, which made Jen feel unsupported.

And then on the flip side, Jen's parents are the most loving, supportive people ever.

So I think where most parents would be like, yeah, leave that loser.

They were like, Jen, Zach's an amazing person.

They were calling me like they were crying with me like jen's parents have been so amazing when it comes to this and so i think that was really hard for jen to be like i think you're getting so much support from my parents when you were the one who messed up why can't i get the same i think it was just a really tricky situation to navigate because what do my parents say hey we want to congratulate you on this show where our son looks like an asshole because that's that's what i i mean that's how i acted so yeah yeah it's been it it's been hard and it's been tough to navigate like i can imagine Honestly, like, yeah, because we have our reality TV life, but then we have our real life relationships with our family and friends.

And that is really tough to navigate, to be honest.

But for me, at this point, I'm kind of in a stage of like, I'm doing what I want to do.

And I'm doing what I feel like is best for me.

And

like I spent my whole life, like I didn't have a lot of money growing up.

Like I didn't get the same opportunities that a lot of like my friends did, especially when moving to Utah during high school.

Like I went from like literally living in the Bay Area, living in the hood to living in a like privileged area.

And I saw all of my friends get all these opportunities.

And I felt like, oh, because I don't come from like a privileged family, like I can't get the same opportunities.

And I've been very defensive of all the opportunities I'm getting now because I'm like, you don't realize like.

My whole life, I've been serving and giving.

I was raised with foster kids.

I shared my bedroom with kids my whole life.

Like it's time for me to show up for me.

And

I've put my foot down because I'm like, no, I do deserve this.

And I think sometimes still feel like a lot of guilt because of like

being on a reality TV show isn't easy.

Exposing your life isn't easy.

But at the same time, I'm like, sometimes you just feel called to something and you can't explain why.

And people might have their opinions opinions and say that's right or wrong.

For me, like I've always just followed my gut and intuition.

And like, I want to do the hard thing.

It's not easy being vulnerable as a Mormon and showing what actually happens sometimes in like

Mormon relationships.

And like, I feel like we're doing the hard thing, but doing the right thing by exposing what actually happens.

And hopefully people within the Mormon culture can look at our relationship and kind of like reflect on theirs and say like, hey, like, I think we kind of struggle with that too.

Or like, maybe my husband has fed into the whole like patriarchy and isn't treating me right.

Or like, I want to be an example of that.

And people aren't going to like that, unfortunately.

I, I, I have lost a lot of friends and I think respect because of that.

And I don't care.

Like I'm, I'm showing up.

And I basically told him when I was in a place where I want to walk away from the relationship, like, I'm doing this.

This is what I feel right about.

And you can come along with me.

You can support me in this, or you can walk away.

I was not opposed to divorce.

I was truly doing what I felt was right.

And because of that, I feel like our relationship has never been stronger because I have found my voice.

And I'm still in the process of that.

I'm still young, 25.

I'm young.

But for me, I have learned so much.

And yeah, I think there's a lot to take from our relationship, how different we are, the dynamic of a relationship.

And yeah, I think.

I mean, we got married, were you 19 or 20?

Was just turned 20.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we were

22.

So, like, we had like, we were super young.

And so, a lot of this has been like us growing up and like learning together, figuring out who we are.

Like, it's not like we were 30 and had these stable jobs and like had really figured ourselves out.

Like, we're like children growing up together, then also having children.

Like, we're about to to have our third baby.

So there's been a lot of learning and growing.

And I think something Jen said that I'm really proud of her for is how she's found her voice and just decided, like, this is who I am.

This is who I want to be.

And I think a lot of season one honestly was us compensating.

Like because we were the, the Mormon couple on the show, we felt like we had to really push that and didn't really show up like who we really were.

So then I think when like the gambling stuff came out and then like the controlling behavior on my end came out, like it was really hard because I know personally I was putting on a facade.

I was trying to, for the church, be this certain person.

But then there's also this other version of me that I am around my friends or around these other groups.

And like, I think if anything, the show has taught us just to like be yourself and show up for who, like, who you really are.

And there's going to be people who like you and there's going to be people who hate you, but like you can't change that, but you've got to feel good in your own skin or you're never going to feel comfortable.

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Jen, forgive me if this isn't inaccurate, and I think you shared last time you were here a little bit about your background, but can you remind the audience a little bit more about your childhood?

I was raised by my biological parents,

but I was raised with foster kids.

So my parents took in foster kids my whole life from the time that I was three years old.

I was sharing my bedroom.

And basically, my, I love my parents so much.

Like they, my mom was a convert.

So she was raised Catholic, was converted by the Mormon missionaries, moved down to BYU, met my dad.

My dad was also raised with foster kids.

My dad was raised in California.

And my, my parents are just different members of the church.

My mom still drinks coffee, occasionally drinks too.

She doesn't follow all the rules.

My parents have never been that way, but their focus growing up was really about being a good person, serving others, and making God and Jesus the focus.

And basically, when bringing in these foster kids,

he wanted, my parents wanted to let these children know that, yeah, maybe your parents have forgotten you.

Maybe they aren't here for you.

Maybe they don't even love you.

But guess what?

God does.

And like, I want you to know that.

So when you leave this house, like you have something to rely on if you don't feel that from maybe the next family or whatever.

But my parents have always been a perfect example of that.

And to be honest, that kind of is still

is what is keeping me

still with the church.

I've had a lot of issues with the church since the show and I've had

kind of like a spiritual faith faith crisis but what's kept me is that love what's kept me is like that relationship with god with jesus because i just saw how like it transformed these kids lives and it transformed my life and i do think people get fixated on the whole like why do you wear garments why do you do this why joseph smith where are your garments by the way

It's about the intention, baby.

It's about being a good person.

That's what it's about.

But again, a lot of members do fixate on the things that aren't important.

And for me, I'm, I always go back to the primary things that are important.

And yeah, my

mom growing up, like, we didn't have the

like best relationship because of the language barrier.

So I was raised by this Hispanic mother, but then I was also raised by this in some way traditional white Asian male Mormon man.

So I was able to see so much.

I was able to see, have so many different relationships with my foster siblings.

And like, I feel like I have really such a good perspective on the blessings of the church and the good that you can get from the church.

But I also have a perspective of like what I don't want to teach my kids and what I want to leave.

And that's something I'm still just.

figuring out day by day, but I feel like we've been able to teach each other like so much.

There's so much I can take from him.

And like, to be honest, my family, even though they're like the most Christ-like loving, least judgmental people, they are very dysfunctional in their own way.

I also was raised by parents who yelled at each other and screamed at each other.

And in a lot of ways, maybe shouldn't have shown us that, but they showed me the real and the passion.

And with that came like also toxic things.

But then you've got like things that I've learned from you and like.

also like your grandparents and just like hard work and community as well.

And there is just so much that we have learned from each other.

So we were raised like very, very different.

Like Jen's mom was baptized in Ecuador, moved here, came to BYU, met her dad.

My parents grew up in probably the most Mormon community in the whole church in bountiful Utah.

They knew each other since they were eight years old.

Like both my grandparents were like.

high members in the church, like just so just very, very different.

So when we came together, there was a lot of like learning for us both to do.

But also like he's helped me find my voice because being raised with foster kids i felt like i i did get uh a lot of the short end of the stick growing up because my parents were so focused on like helping these kids and i did feel in a lot of ways i was neglected and because of that i became somewhat of a people pleaser and

him and his family is an example of like speaking up for yourself and vocalizing your opinions you know his family's a very opinionated family.

Now I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable, especially with reality TV, sharing my opinions.

So, I mean, there's just that.

That's one side.

And I don't know how much you see of it season two that, like, they did Jen and Disservice Season One.

Like, Jen has this spicy side where she'll like put me in my place, like, snap on me.

And I'm like, no one sees, like,

you should have seen her last night

screaming at me.

No one, no one does.

I'm not going to be inside of this.

It seems like you guys have done a lot of...

work

in terms of mending your relationship trauma and hurt that maybe you two have caused each other.

I'd love to learn a little bit about what that work looks like and what specifically you guys have been doing to try to save your marriage.

I can go down to the details.

I think

the biggest thing that we struggle with is communication and the way that we communicate when in the thick of it or when

there is an issue.

I am very, I'm a withdrawer and he's a pursuer.

And so I think that has been like the game changer for us.

Like kind of like perfecting that and how we go about conversations has been like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think just through therapy and through all the help we've gotten, we've learned a lot of different tools.

I don't know if I'm like being too vulnerable or like what can or can't be shared, but like I'll just share anything you want to share.

Yeah, I'll just, I'll just be.

completely honest.

I can't be too vulnerable.

Like for example, so like when I get really worked up, I can really spiral.

For example, like the Chippendales thing, I had, I didn't know what was going on.

In my mind, it was a much worse, crazy scenario.

Like I had been told these different things from other cast members.

So I was expecting the absolute worst.

And instead of like taking a deep breath and gathering the facts, I just started going crazy and saying things I didn't mean and doing things I didn't mean.

And there's like a lot of things that our therapists have taught us of like, why do you react that way?

But like one simple thing that like I do now is like, like I have like anxiety medication.

And so like if I ever find myself in a place where like I'm like really frustrated with Jen, like last night, we got in a big argument.

I'm like, okay, I'm going to go take my medication.

I'm going to go take 20 minutes by myself.

And I'm going to like sit here and think about how I want to show up and who, like, how I want to talk to my wife.

And then we're going to have this conversation like when I'm regulated versus like before it'd be like screaming and yelling and pointing fingers, which goes nowhere, which.

people saw season one.

And then we've just done a lot of other things that I feel like in the Mormon church were kind of considered taboo.

Like um

one day we decided to go to a spiritual healer and we took like a weed gummy together and we just yeah was it a weed gum it was yeah it was oh yeah a thc weed gummy um yeah we decided like hey like maybe this will like help us open up and like right i had never drank smoked done anything in my life but this was right after season one came out and i was in like we were both in a really dark place i'm like we need to change things up like weed was legal in arizona where we were living i'm like

no no we weren't smoking

We're going crazy.

But I'm like, yeah, let's, let's take a gummy.

And we went to the spiritual healer and like had this great experience.

And then, well, that was kind of a crazy experience to be honest.

Also,

we took like, since we were both so naive, we took like 10 times the dose we were actually supposed to take.

And we were like in a different universe and didn't know where we were.

Never did.

Oh, my God.

And this spiritual healer, I was confessing all my life sins and like telling her how much I loved Jen.

And yeah.

Really proud.

She's like, I'm just here to tell you about your future.

She's just like, I'm going to read your palm i don't know what you're saying i'm like i feel like i'm dying she looked more i need to go to the hospital yeah jen was like passed out and i'm 911 on you know why i'm jen asked to call 901 she thought she was dying i literally thought i was dying we later find out you can't overdose on weed but anyway a piece of advice that our therapist gave us that that really works for us and it and it might work for the two of you is if we're arguing about something and we've been arguing about it for five minutes it's like one of us kind of calls like a timeout and it's like we have to table this And by one of us, she means

me.

We have to table this.

And like, we'll circle back because we're just not getting anywhere right now.

And it's not worth it.

I think, as men, we are, you know, that's the language you used, pursuer.

I think men, you know, that inherent fix-it mentality, you know, a little bit more of the logical brain, you know, it's just like, well, that makes no fucking sense.

And I want to get to the bottom of it right now.

Yes.

And

yeah, it is something that's really helped.

It's always accurate, right?

Because like the way our therapist described it is like once you're arguing for five minutes, you're not arguing from a place of an emotionally regulated adult.

You're arguing from the place of whatever child that's inside you, whatever trauma you're experiencing.

And you're not trying to communicate, you're trying to win.

You're not trying to be happy.

You're trying to be right.

And it usually takes that time out, which almost seems silly when, you know, when you're, when our therapist first described, it's like, really, really?

Time out?

Really?

You want me to, really?

Okay.

But it does.

It works.

You calm down

and then you start.

And like you said, you approach a place of coming together, of building back that connection.

I mean, I remember, you know, it wasn't until my 40s I learned that lesson.

So imagine all the relationships I've had and arguments I've had with past partners and girlfriends where I was like, man, that could have been really useful.

You know,

so yeah, it's

nice to learn.

We're familiar with the timeout.

And yeah, I think I'm naturally competitive competitive and I'm naturally like, I want to win the argument.

And so like, yeah, again, last night I was.

What did you guys fight about?

He's like, and that's enough on being voted roll up.

Well, hold on.

I don't want to get that vumbered.

No, I don't want to be able to watch it.

Yeah, to be honest.

I mean, just a little bit more behind that.

Sometimes I do feel like these women are amazing and they have so many opportunities.

But sometimes it does feel like, or at least what I was feeling yesterday was like, hey, I just wish that like.

we don't, you don't have to go to every dinner, like show up to everything.

Like sometimes I just wish like our marriage was first and it wasn't getting put first and it was hurting my feelings and yeah so I got upset at Jen and she called the timeout on me and left and then that's when anyways I said I don't have time for this I'm pregnant yeah so that's kind of what we thought about which I also think is good to talk about that like we we're not trying to portray some like perfect marriage by any means like that still happens and we're getting better at it each day But yeah, timeout's been big for us.

Jen, how did you feel before

all of this stuff went public?

All of the world kind of had a view into your marriage.

How did you feel in your marriage before this reality TV show came about?

I was really struggling for a while and I never actually fully vocalized that, but internally I was for sure battling because I feel like the your toxic tendencies kind of came out the start of like trying to get to med school because at that point there had kind of been a shift in the dynamic of our relationship.

In the beginning of our relationship, P was the provider.

I kind of was just at home chilling, not really doing anything.

And I was just kind of like, whatever Zach does, Summer Cells, school, like I'm just tagging along.

And I was like, kind of like chill with it.

But I think I've always been pretty like ambitious in like my own way.

And I definitely needed my own thing.

So when I pushed him to go back to med school, kind of leave Summer Cells, I was kind of put in a place where like I was forced to like provide, or at least I knew that like I needed to find a way to provide because at that point I couldn't rely on him providing for us and I didn't want to be in debt and then at the same time that we had committed to that and all those changes I found out I was pregnant with my first

and so

that kind of just like put something in me that just like I need to make this happen I need to start providing and I need to give this baby the best life.

So I started my videography career.

It kind of turned into what it is now, social media and now reality TV.

But I think that caused a lot of issues because as I became the provider, I kind of, and a mother, I kind of started to find my voice and I started to find my confidence.

And I also started to gain somewhat control in our relationship.

He was kind of the person just kind of like steering the wheel.

And I kind of just came in and was like, okay, I actually think we should do it this way.

And, you know, I'm the one paying for it.

No, exactly.

And I resisted it.

Yes.

And he really resisted it.

and it really caused a lot of issues.

And in the thick of that, I got asked to be on a reality TV.

Jack, did it make you insecure that she was making

it?

It still sometimes makes me insecure.

Sometimes I'm at home, like on like a random Tuesday as a stay at home dad.

I'm at like the trampoline park with my two kids and I'm like, what the hell am I doing with my life?

Like I'm grateful.

that that's even a possibility.

And I still think I want to figure out what I want to do.

But back at that time, it was really hard because this dynamic had had switched.

Suddenly, Jen's providing, and there was other things going on.

I was in the middle of like studying for the MCAT, trying to get into medical school.

I was taking 21 credits to try to graduate from college.

We had one and then a second baby back to back.

Jen, like six months after she gave birth, she got pregnant again with her second baby.

Y'all be fucking.

Which, uh, yeah, she tricked.

I got tricked into that.

She took out her IUD without telling me, but

yeah, that was stressful.

So I was under a lot of stress.

Oopsies.

Whoopsies.

This was before therapy.

I was like, this was before therapy.

And then like our marriage wasn't perfect.

Again, we were young.

We didn't have the coping skills we have now.

And again, like I would sometimes, like one of the ways I would cope is I'd play online poker with my buddies at night.

She hated that because she's providing, like, doing all this work for our family and our kids.

I'm gone at school all day long and then she's like like what the hell are you doing so were you essentially gambling jen's money that that's another part of the show that's

jen at the time this is when she was like doing videography and starting um social media at the time i was still getting checks from like the summer sales so do you guys know what summer sales is no oh they need to make a reality tv show about it it's basically this super common thing in utah but every summer kids go out from utah to different states and they sell pest control or alarms door to door and that sounds like oh how could successful could it be?

People make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a summer.

Like I have buddies who are millionaires just selling pest control door to door.

So that's what I was doing to provide for a family early on.

I'd go to school and then in the summer I would go.

I should do that.

We probably should have.

He's like, great,

because I'm bringing in the dough.

Yeah.

I mean, sales is sales.

Yeah,

no, I think because I really wanted to pursue going to medical school and like I wasn't fulfilled in that.

So yeah, we stepped away from that.

So it was your summer sales money not just yeah and then we had made some investments we had bought a home we had remodeled a home which we ended up selling um

yeah

well yes we had we had we had uh some leftover money but for the most part at that point it felt like he was gambling my money because i was the provider at that point so well at this point you're married so it does it's a bit of a gray area right yeah for sure there's a lot of gray areas modern times there's

well no i mean it's like i mean what money is it your money?

It's just like, like, you know, whether it's my money or you earned it whenever and you think you're spending yours, but, you know, when you're married, there's, there's the expectation that you will be communicating, I guess, essentially all expenses.

I mean, Natalie makes her own money, right?

And she's allowed to do what she wants, but like every once in a while, I'll be like, oh, that's a new purse.

That's, wow, where'd that show up?

from?

Huh?

Cool.

No, I've had it for years.

You know, literally since I was like, this is like, I've had this forever.

Yeah.

Literally forever.

It's an antique.

This is an

extra money.

Especially when

both people in the relationship make their own money and you also want to maintain a little bit of independence, even in a marriage.

And I know we do, right?

You know, but I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, for us, it's just, it's more about just like making sure we're on the same page.

You know, she doesn't need my permission, nor do I need her permission to like spend money, but it's just, we just want to make sure that we're, we're doing doing more things together than apart, you know?

And regardless of whose money it was, I am assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, when it comes to gambling, we are aware of just how dangerous it can be.

I'm assuming you are aware of that.

And there's all these stories about people, you know, ruining their lives.

It is an addiction.

And so.

Yeah, I'm guessing that's kind of maybe where that those feelings came from.

Well, oh, yeah.

I think another thing was early on in our marriage, because I was the one providing and again i had this like framework of my head of like how like things worked i can do whatever the hell i want

no not necessarily that but it was kind of like i was the one making the money so i was kind of like i was controlling it like i wasn't giving jen that freedom that she wanted and so suddenly when she was making all this money she's like well i've got the freedom now like i'm gonna do what i want and so that's taken us time it was a punch to my ego and it's taken us time to figure out how are we gonna navigate our finances how are we gonna do this how are we gonna do that and yeah it's i think it's just part of figuring it out yeah but

also with yeah, with the gambling, that's something that we openly talk about a ton.

And I do feel like being raised in the Mormon church, there is a lot of shame and guilt around a lot of

stuff.

And I feel like with boundaries and communication, like it's become more of like a healing thing for us.

And it has been like a toxic, like we're going back to like toxic things.

It's more just like, hey, like if we can stick to this budget, if we can stick to this, like, we're a team, like, you want to spend this amount of money with like betting on a sports game.

Well, I'm going to spend this amount of money on a bag.

Like, we just see it that way.

Obviously, if it got went too far and like he wasn't being honest, we would have to set that boundary and say, This isn't working.

We tried to make it work.

Let's not do it.

We haven't gotten to that point.

It's been a very

perfect way for us to bond and also not

put so much.

When you say bond, what What do you mean?

I know that that sounds crazy to say like, oh, you're bonding over gambling, but I think where it caused us a lot of pain early on was I'd kind of do it when I wanted with my buddies, a lot of my buddies sports bet and I'd kind of just like do it with them and not always like, there wasn't full transparency where now it's kind of like, hey, babe, like the Lakers are playing tonight.

Like I'm going to bet.

200 bucks on that.

Are you cool?

And she'll like, we'll like watch the game together.

Sure.

And it will be like an exciting thing.

And then it's, you know, then it's not like I'm doing this behind her back.

I'm like, I'm still spending money.

I shouldn't be spending.

It's more of like this fun thing that I do on occasion versus like a toxic, you know what I mean?

It makes a ton of sense.

You're not bonding over gambling.

You're bonding over communicating in boundaries and respecting each other's boundaries and doing things together.

And exactly.

And just agreeing because like that is a marriage.

Has there been a moment where you've said, no, maybe not tonight?

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, well, after Vegas, I didn't, I didn't go go into a casino or I didn't gamble for like nine months because there was a lot of trauma that needed to be healed behind that.

And I was trying to be sensitive to Jen and like the hurt that I had caused her.

But finally through therapy, we got to a point where like our therapist was like, Zach, what are things like you love to do?

It seems like you're not doing a lot of the things you love anymore.

Like you're not going on surfing trips.

You're not like gambling with your buddies.

I'm like, yeah, I kind of do love those things, but like I'm trying not to do them for my.

for my wife and she's like no like you need to find healthy positive ways to do these things and so that's when we started talking and literally a conversation with our therapist was like, hey, Zach wants to occasionally sports bet with his buddies.

Jen, how do you feel about that?

Well, I don't feel good about it because of X, Y, and Z.

And then we got to a place where we're like, okay, that's a good compromise.

This is how we can make it work.

And there is nights where she's like, yeah, like, I don't want you to do that.

Yeah.

Obviously, your relationship has.

has has been under scrutiny.

We only see what the editors put in the show.

So can you kind of give us some things you really love about each other?

Like what is something that Zach does?

What are parts of your relationship that you just cherish and love and that you're grateful for?

Yeah, there are so many things I love about Zach.

First off, he's good looking.

Love that.

No, there's so many things.

I

love that.

how much of a hard worker he is, even though he's taken on the role of being a stay-at-home dad.

I've always loved it.

It's hard as shit.

Yes, it is hard.

It's way harder.

It's harder than med med school, to be honest.

Credits to all the stay-at-home moms and stay-at-home dads.

It's not easy.

I love that he's just so hardworking and anything he's ever set his mind to,

he's always been able to do that and go 100%.

So, you know, when he wanted to marry me and that was a goal, he went 100% and made that happen.

When I was walking away from our marriage and he decided this is what I wanted, he walked away from med school and said, I'm going 100% at it.

I'm doing it.

He's always been really, really good at that in whatever he wants in his life.

And I love that about him

because it motivates me and like my intentions and things that I want in life.

I love that he's he's smart and intelligent.

I love, I mean, the world hasn't been able to see

the other parts of Zach, but he really does have a big,

big heart and he cares a lot.

And he's an amazing father.

He cares about me.

He cares about his children and he is always thinking about his children.

We wouldn't have our doctor's appointments set up and all the things, you know, if it wasn't for him, I'm all over the place, like ADHD.

He's always like, hey, like, are they getting the nutrients that they need?

Are they doing this?

Like, he really is just so good at that.

He's a great friend.

He's loyal.

He is so loyal.

We've got the golden retriever.

I would say I'm the golden retriever.

He's like the shepherd.

Like he like protects and he's loyal and he's hardworking.

Like that is like Zach to his core.

And yes, like he is very opinionated.

I love that about him, though.

He's not fake about it.

He's going to say it how it is.

He's straight up.

I have a tendency to be a people pleaser and not really vocalize, but he motivates me to and brings out that side in me of this is what I want and this is how I'm going to get it.

Yeah, there is, there is, I should go on all that.

Yeah, I could go on.

I love these podcasts.

We should do these more often.

I could also go on and on, but I would say the two things that stick out to me the most about Jen is first, I feel like she's the only person I've ever been able to fully be myself around.

And she brings out this different side in me and just makes me feel.

I don't know, like anyone who knows Jen can just see this light and it's just, it's, she's always fun to be around.

She always is like, it's just exciting.

She makes life fun.

And I can be really serious and she can kind of help me calm down down and just enjoy life.

And then the other thing, which I've really felt in the last like six months is Jen is really good at showing unconditional love and she had a lot of reasons to walk away from our marriage to

yeah like

don't fight it

shows you're human yeah she She has just shown me a lot of unconditional love when maybe I didn't deserve it or maybe she had a lot of reason to, again, walk away or just feel a certain way.

And she's stuck by me and worked through a lot of really hard times.

And

I'm super grateful for that.

And then the last thing I'd just say is

she's a great mother.

And yeah, there's no one else I'd rather like see be the mother of my children.

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Zach, I'd love for you to just think back about going into into season one and then think about where you're at now, you know, with all the work you do as a couple.

And I'd love to know what you think your role as a husband is today versus what you thought your role as a husband is prior to all the work you guys have done as a couple.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think going into season one, I had this idea of Again, that like the man was like the patriarch of the family.

Like I was in, like I was supposed to like make the decisions for us.

I was supposed to provide for us.

I was supposed to like protect kind of just all those like traditional roles that a lot of males, especially in the church, kind of take on.

And I'm still figuring out what my roles are now.

Like I said, like being a stay-at-home dad was kind of never my plan.

I think my role now, at least what I'm embracing right now is just supporting Jen and like kind of helping her shine and just like being okay that like there's a lot that goes behind on behind the scenes of taking care of random things of kids of things that people are never going to see and like that's contributing to our relationship and it's allowing jen to have these opportunities that she honestly deserves and just supporting her just being able to like be there and enjoy that she's getting to do all these like really cool things that she always dreamed of because this really was jen's dream like she wanted to do something like this and so yeah supporting her in those things and then just um enjoying being a dad like being a dad is like the coolest thing ever and like you get to like create like these mini me's and like just like teach them all these fun things and go do all these fun things all the time and so yeah i feel like that's kind of the role i'm playing right now that's awesome yeah um do you feel like you know and thanks for answering that question because like as a fan of reality tv it's you know it's it's i think it's enjoyed by everyone but it's it's i think you know there's a little bit more women viewers than than male viewers

and i think

you know i don't know if it's just the reality of of men you know maybe there's some how men are portrayed on the show but you know, it is sometimes frustrating.

Like, you know, like everyone else, I'm the furthest from a perfect person, have all my flaws, you know, and in relationships, outside of relationships.

But like, it is sometimes frustrating watching these shows where it seems like some of the men on these shows like have like just like

expect the bare minimum from themselves.

Where it's just like, you know, I sometimes when I talk about these shows, I feel like I'm coming from a place of like thinking I'm better than these guys, but like some of the guys, it's just like, what the fuck are you guys doing?

You know, and it's, but now that you've done some of this work, do you see yourself wanting to be

a vehicle for change when it comes to other men in your community, your friends?

Your wife mentioned how loyal you are and you seem like you have a good group of guy friends.

But I ask, I have to assume that some of the men in your community or even some of the men who are also on the show

have a lot of work to do themselves.

And how do you plan on, you know, obviously you're going on your journey and I'm sure that's probably your primary focus right now.

But do you see yourself wanting to be an example of positive change and encouraging other men in your community to follow?

some of the work you've been doing.

Yeah, I mean, I still feel like, so when we first started therapy, I had this idea in my mind of like okay I'm gonna do this for six months and then like I'm gonna be good and like I've now realized that's like not what it is like this is gonna be an ongoing continual thing for probably forever but I do think there's a lot of great men in my life who I want to take things from them and apply them and then there's things where I'm like no I don't want to be that kind of a husband I don't want to be that kind of a man and I'm trying to like make those changes and and shift everything um As far as the men on the show, I actually think there's a lot of great husbands and a lot of like the learning I've done has been from them.

Like specifically, I've had so many late night conversations with Connor, Whitney's husband.

Like we spend a lot of time together.

We go to the gym together, like off camera.

He calls me all the time and I just talk through and he's helped me.

I ask him like, how do you handle like some of these things?

How do you go about it?

And like, he's been like one of like my mentors.

Also, like Connor's journey of him and everything he went through led him to getting into EMDR and all these different things, which ultimately led us to doing EMDR EMDR and these different modalities of therapy of getting into ketamine therapy, which that was like completely life-changing for us.

And so I think when I've healed more and I'm ready, I would love to talk more about this and more of like the mental health things that I went through, that Jen went through, and just kind of showing people that like, so many people are quick on social media to be like, divorce him, like divorce, divorce, divorce, but like you can fight for a marriage and it can work and you can make changes.

And I hope that like, I'm not saying I'm perfect or I've completely changed, but that that's what I'm trying to do.

and i hope people can see that thanks for sharing all this it's been great i do want to talk a little bit about season two

it's been fun getting to know you and and you know a lot of the women especially season two came at you for what they've claimed was you being dishonest you know there's the whole ben afflic of it all and yada yada and you know i i said this to i think jesse when she was here but you seem more or less harmless you know um you know there's i guess not that any lying or you know embellishing is okay,

but you mentioned people pleasing.

It seems like sometimes your fibbing comes from a place of

desiring acceptance.

Oh, absolutely.

And I don't want to go back to like the tough parts in your relationships, but there were obviously, and Zach has owned up to a lot of things he's done, but there were, you know, things that you said about your husband that...

Maybe not all of it was even accurate.

But like, what are some things that maybe you got wrong when it came to how you talked about your husband?

And also, do you feel like you were in the spirit of people pleasing, do you feel like some of the other women were able to convince you that your husband was a certain way or did certain things that you agreed to or said that ultimately wasn't true?

I do agree with everything you just said.

I do think I have a lot of people pleasing tendencies.

I do think that a lot of the dishonesty that maybe you see in season two where I wasn't just straight up, right up front came from me living in fear and not me.

I've never really had for the most part, like

any like ill intent.

I think it's just a lot of things that I've had to even just work through in therapy with, yeah, trying to be accepted and

having issues with that.

I do feel like Everything I showed in season one was accurate to how I was feeling.

I never saw Zach fully as like this like narcissist, but I did see a lot of narcissistic traits.

And like I

did feel like through like my own like hurt and reflection, like I did see him as that.

And that was my truth at that time.

And obviously, we had never gone to therapy at that point.

I'd never seen him put in that full effort.

So at that time, like that, that was how I felt.

And going into season two, I did live in that fear of of like, will he actually make those changes?

And like, I think a lot of people in marriages go through those stages of life where like they're like, will they change?

And will they do those things?

And

in season two, you see a lot of that hurt.

The hurt from season one and the past couple of years were kind of like bottled up in season two.

And I was just living in like this hurt and honestly rage.

I'd been quiet for so long.

I'd been a people pleaser for so long that like there is a combination of rage, people pleasing,

fear, and change.

Like I just was going through all of it.

I wanted change.

I, but my old self was still coming out, but like I'm still evolving into this new person and I'm calling people out.

But like, am I being fully honest with myself?

Like there is a lot of just like, what's going on?

There's a lot to navigate.

And

I

maybe it seems like I had like maybe fed into like what the girls were saying that was never really the case I think I was already bottling up a lot of feelings and I never I mean there's a reason why I isolated myself after season one is I truly was trying to figure out what was best for me and that's why I also isolated myself in season two

with the whole like uh me being dishonest.

I want to be clear.

I don't mean to cut you off, but other than the the Chippendale where it sounds like maybe you knew a little bit more more than you let on and and and to me and and jesse like acknowledged that they said hey we're not going to tell you everything and there's a little bit of back and forth it was really more you being accused

it there wasn't it wasn't clear that there were you you were lying a lot i want to be clear it wasn't like a bunch of like oh jen's lying all the time everyone's told me that i'm just look like the biggest liar in season two you're you're being accused of it constantly by to me

mostly jesse seems to like be her like partner in crime but it really seems to be to me

which would make sense.

That makes more sense now knowing what you guys know.

Well, I mean, well, I don't, to be honest, we're, we're all kind of confused.

We've still trying to be.

We have the opportunity to talk to Michaela, Macy, Jesse, Layla, Miranda, and Demi.

I think it's kind of important just that we ask because everyone's kind of involved.

Yeah, I'll just lay this out.

Like, this is my full truth, and I don't know if it's shown at all in season two.

But with the whole Chippendales thing, first off, I don't know what's shown in the show, but yeah, to be just fully transparent and

saying this with my like, literally, like full honest truth, I went and got my hair done at Jesse's salon and I was never like, it was never supposed to be brought up.

Like nothing about the whole like them throwing a Chippendales party was supposed to be brought up.

The only reason why Demi ended up bringing it up is because I told her about like my ketamine experience and how we fully healed from Chippendales.

And to be honest, I wasn't being fully honest with them at that point being at the salon because I was trying to protect my marriage and I didn't know how season two was gonna go.

And so her hearing that, she was like, well, then maybe I should show you, tell you about like this Chippendales party that I was gonna throw.

And so I was kind of people pleasing with them at that moment and kind of just being a yes girl and saying whatever, but I didn't actually fully realize what I was saying.

Yes to.

And there wasn't also full transparency.

Chippendale's dancer dancer was never brought up to me.

Me being seated, like it was very much like,

seemed very much like lighthearted.

But at the same time, I also wasn't being fully honest with them and Zach because I had never vocalized even there being a strip show at Chippendale's.

And so that was kind of just like in passing.

I think what's confusing for me is like, it would have never been brought up if I wasn't wasn't at the salon that day.

So what was your intent behind hosting that?

Because you wouldn't have told me if I wasn't there.

And if I hadn't told you where we were at in our marriage, what would that have looked like?

And then, of course, like when we got there and Zach didn't know what was going on.

And then all of a sudden Chippendale's dancer was there.

Me being seated, it was just kind of like, I knew about this.

I didn't know the extent of it.

Now everyone's calling me a liar.

The Ben Affleck thing, I've always been fully honest about that.

I never made that up.

That was never lie.

It was brought up.

That's still something we're like trying to like figure out.

Was that a joke?

Did your grandpa get the wrong Ben Affleck?

Like, that was never something I ever lied about.

But the only person that deserves an apology with that whole thing is Zach.

And I have given that to him because I wasn't fully transparent with him.

It's very interesting that she keeps coming out and calling me a liar and saying things that I made these things up.

It really is her deflecting on the truth that happened after Vanderpump Villa.

She knew that I was going to talk about it and she didn't want me to talk about it.

Therefore, she used Chippendale's and that whole Halloween party to make me,

to make it seem like I was this big, biggest liar.

So if I did bring it up, no one would believe me.

And at that point, she was in a perfect place to do that because I was isolated from the group.

So she could tell the whole group how she felt and she could convince the whole group that this was happening.

But that was just not the case at all.

And I mean, you'll see later on that more receipts are shown, like more proof is shown.

And like

it's just honestly like her freaking out and her

deflecting.

We've asked all of the women, obviously, it's all over social media.

What is your opinion on the Demi Marciano Jesse of it all?

Yeah, my opinion on it is I think

Demi pushed boundaries in Vanderpump Villa and you said pushed boundaries, boundaries in her marriage.

Yes.

And I called her out for it and she was very upset in Italy.

She was like, how dare you

tell me what my own boundaries are in my marriage?

Like, how dare you like, like, this is like, i can do what i want kind of the same mentality of like

what she brought in vegas but it was almost what i mean you also called me though because i was back in arizona in medical school and jen called me and was like because i was asking her about how this trip was going and you called me and was like yeah demi's just been crying in her room for the last hour she's so she feels so bad she feels like she's cheated on her husband yes well why well because she was sitting on his lap she was kissing him all these things that were never shown in the edit.

It's just, I don't even know how we're like still honestly debating the topic.

Yeah.

I think partly it's just because it's obviously such a serious

conversation, a serious conversation.

And it's just like.

I think what's, uh, what was hard for me was like, this has happened before.

I've heard this from

other people, like when she in her past marriages, that this would happen.

And so for me, like, I just kind of like told her, like, if you want to flirt with this guy or whatever, like, you can go do that.

Like,

that's your boundary in your marriage, like, whatever.

But like, I'm making it very clear that I don't want to be associated with that.

And I was worried at that point, like, are they going to edit it in a way that we're all flirting with these guys?

I want to make it very clear that like, I'm just here to have a.

fun girls trip

and I'm not like trying to like,

you know.

So at that moment, were you, when you brought that up to Demi, were you trying to be like a good friend and hold her accountable and be like, hey, I don't know where your head is right now, but like, this is what you're doing.

And maybe you should stop.

And she didn't

respond well.

Absolutely.

And I think at that point, she was just like, maybe she had realized.

But later after the trip,

she ended up having a conversation with Brett and she was bawling on the phone.

And she was like,

I went too far.

I should have gone to bed at 8 p.m.

when you went to bed, Jen.

Like, I think I may have pushed this too far.

Will you guys please not tell anyone?

And at that point, I'll be straight up, like, she was never truly like a true friend to me.

I, she'd never been loyal to me.

She exposed all of my text messages in Vegas for her own benefit.

and for her own storyline.

It never felt like she was a true loyal friend to me.

So at that point, I had my guard up and I own this.

Like I told Michaela, I'm not a loyal friend to her.

So if she comes at me and my marriage again, season two,

like

I'm going to bring this up because it's not fair.

It's not fair for you to keep pointing fingers at my marriage, make your whole storyline about how I'm in this toxic marriage, yada, yada, yada.

But then we don't talk about your marriage because we all know that there's things happening.

Season two happened and I mentioned it

in the scene with me, Zach, Demi, and Jesse.

I brought it up.

Right after that scene, she ends up calling me and I have this voice recording.

She calls me and she tries to coach me on what to say if they ask me about Vanderpump Villa.

The story doesn't add up.

When you look at the receipts, when you look at what happened, it just doesn't add up.

And then the whole time she's bullying my wife, she's making TikToks with her husband.

She's trying to get the whole group to make Jen look like she's a liar for what purpose?

because that that fits her because she she's honestly very manipulative also yeah it it was frustrating because then right after vanderpump villa she was inviting him to a dinner like i have voice recordings of her saying i want him to come to a dinner and i said i sent a recording who to come marciano i sent a voice recording back and i said absolutely not i will not be at that dinner i do not want to be associated with that man like

when and when was that timeline This is after the filming?

This was right before season one came out.

Right after filming

came out.

And then she said, I want to invite him to the premiere.

I think it would be a great time.

Like, and then I heard from the other girls, like, there was like weird DMs that she was sending him.

And

like, she was FaceTiming him with Maud.

It just nothing, nothing added up.

And then why, why are you coaching me on what to say with Vanderpump Villa?

And that to say that you,

that I was wrong for uh

questioning her boundaries and her marriage, nothing adds up, everything keeps changing.

Why are you getting a cease and desist?

And then saying, I never got a cease and desist, and then saying that I lied about that.

I'm like, that literally happened.

Like, well, no, it didn't happen.

She didn't go through with that, but she tried to.

She tried to get me to be quiet.

Why would you, what, what would be your purpose behind keeping me quiet?

Like, what's your reasoning behind that um and so for me like

she can call me

i mean i think she says that like you're

um spreading lies about her marriage and her reputation and it's i think she wanted to keep you quiet but she she claims that you're lying yes which okay like you'll it's just hard when there's like receipts to back it on one end and not the other and then like saying like she was lying about the cease and desist there's just so many things where it's just so hard to be like you want to give grace because it's such a sensitive topic.

It just, again, the story just doesn't add up.

Well, do you think we'll have an opportunity maybe season three or at some point?

You guys keep mentioning receipts.

Will the audience get a chance to see some of these receipts?

Yes.

Hopefully.

Yeah.

I mean, we never, we never know.

Well, if not, I'll be posting on my social media.

I want to say again one more question, question, just because I think it's very relatable.

You found out you were pregnant in season two, and obviously your initial reaction wasn't what a lot of women feel is that excitement.

You felt that's fear.

Nellie and I have been open about our own fertility struggles.

And obviously

I imagine that was a very complicated feeling that you had because I'm assuming you're we're all told this is a blessing, this is amazing, you obviously have wonderful children already and you love being parents.

How did you deal with that, those complicated feelings of feeling that fear initially at a time where other times you think you're supposed to feel another way?

Yeah, at that point, I felt like

a lot of guilt and just

I felt guilty for

not being proactive.

And because I wasn't on birth control, like kind of putting ourselves in that situation, because, you know,

having a baby is like a big deal.

I mean, you're responsible for a human being coming into this life.

And so

I

don't think

like I truly like think that I wasn't being responsible during that time.

And I felt bad because at that point, I didn't know where our marriage was headed.

I didn't know if we were headed to divorce or if we were going to fight.

And so for me, I felt guilt just like bringing this baby into this life at such a vulnerable hard time

and for me i was like this is the last thing i need right now and i can barely take care of myself how am i supposed to take care of this baby and take care of my kids and and and do all these things and be a part of the show and fight for our marriage like

really my head was like going into circles but

Honestly, if it wasn't for finding out that I was pregnant, I don't think I would have prioritized my mental health as much as I did and prioritized getting help.

Because yeah, again, at that point, it didn't, it no longer was about me.

It was about this baby taking care of this baby, protecting this baby.

And

I mean, people tell you, like, how you go about your life, what you put in your, you know, like what you, what you eat and like,

just.

Pregnancy is a big deal.

Like everything, the way that you're living your life and how you're taking care of your body, it affects the baby.

It affects the baby for the rest of of their life.

That's where my head was at.

And I was really like just worried.

But of course, like this, I truly feel like this baby is what saved me during that, that time.

This baby gave me the strength to to push through, ask for help, get the therapy that I needed.

And yeah, I'm grateful for that.

And I, I can't wait to meet this baby.

And I can't wait to tell her,

tell her or him.

I think it's her, I don't know, when they're older that like they saved me during one of the hardest times of my life.

And you're truly like the biggest blessing.

And

I can't wait to tell them all the things that I learned during those moments.

So that was a very beautiful way to end.

I can't thank you guys enough for joining us.

And I think you guys have been a great example of how a marriage, like you said, can have its ups and downs and some pretty low lows.

And if you want to choose to wake up and still choose each other, that there's a path forward if you guys want to do that.

And Zach, I just want to say, you know, keep working on yourself.

It's nice to see that growth for someone who maybe once was the most hated man in America.

I'm glad that you didn't quit on yourself and quit on your marriage and quit on your wife.

And I challenge you to keep.

looking in the mirror and finding ways to grow and be a better man because I do think the world, especially on TV, needs better examples of how men should be, both to themselves, to their community, and to their partners.

So,

thanks for showing up today and just keep doing what you guys are doing.

Yeah, thanks for having us on.

Thanks for giving us a voice and letting us share more of our story.

It means a lot.

So, yeah, thank you.

Thank you guys for listening.

We'll see you back tomorrow.

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This Labor Day, gear up, save big, and ride harder with cycle gear.

From August 22nd to September 1st, score up to 60% off motorcycle gear from your favorite brands.

RPM members get 50% off tire mount and balance with any new tire purchase.

Need to hit the road now?

Fast Lane Financing lets you ride now and pay later with 0% interest for three months.

And here's the big one.

August 29th through September 1st only.

Buy Buy any helmet $319 or more and get a free Cardo Spirit Bluetooth.

Supplies are limited.

Don't wait.

Cycle gear.

Get there.

Start here.