E995 - RHOC w/ Katie Ginella, Love Con Revenge w/ Cecille, DWTS & Unknown Number: The High School Catfish

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You're crazy.

What's going on, everybody?

Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap Edition.

I am your host, Nick, joined by my sexy, beautiful, gorgeous wife, who's now.

It's always about my looks.

It's never about what's inside.

Okay.

She's always sexy, gorgeous, beautiful, hot.

But like, where is the like?

Never pure apart.

Never kind, never brave.

Never

loving.

It's never loving.

She's all those things.

She's also 27.

She's 27.

Nico's like, honestly, this is weird for me.

You know, like, you're not really like young.

Wow.

I said, let us not forget that you're damn near 50.

You know, I am definitely still young.

I was just like, wow, you're like full adult now.

I'm in my late 20s.

Okay, Leonardo DiCaprio.

I know what I heard.

That's what I said.

He was like, oh, 27, not what I signed up for.

We'll renegotiate at 28.

Not what I said.

What do you think?

What's it?

Matthew McConaughey and Days and Confused.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, these girls stay the same age.

They can be still and everybody stayed the same age.

Also, Sierra had a birthday.

I did.

I don't need to share how old I am.

Okay.

But it was great and it lasted forever.

I went to Ohio Valley Inn and then did a day at Disney with my fiancé.

That's cute.

Did dinner with some of my girlfriends at the Bel Air Hotel.

It was so nice.

Wait, what did Connor get you for your birthday?

Was it like the trench or the Disney Disney?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I accepted

paid for a Michelin star dinner.

Yeah.

And we were stuffed.

Oh my god.

It was so cool.

How was your birthday?

My birthday was lovely.

My birthday was lovely.

It was sexy, hot, delicious, and like so sexy, like legs open, sexy and

beautiful.

You know,

it was.

I mean, Nick did wake me up at the ass crack of dawn with my gifts, which like is so nice that he had gifts.

I was like, what time is it?

He's like, oh, it's 6.10.

And I was like, oh,

River got her gifts and I wanted River to bring her.

You didn't want.

River was so excited.

She was like, wake up, mommy.

Yeah.

And you were like, duh.

Yeah.

She got her two gifts.

Rivi got me a gift, and Nick got me a gift.

It was so sweet.

And then Nick made pancakes, which I love, even though I am was supposed to be gluten-free, but Nick was like, I feel like your birthday is a cheat day for the gluten.

He's like, I think it's too hard for me to figure out what you can eat that doesn't have to be.

Also, I don't need her like

sadly eating a salad on her birthday.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And then, oh, he invited like flowers then.

Oh, yes.

He had flowers sent in, which were huge and gorge.

And then he invited a couple of my friends over.

And we like had, he ordered dentaifeng and we ate that

for lunch and then drank some wine and just kind of hung out.

And then he cooked a delicious steak meal.

It was very lovely.

Beautiful.

He did a great job.

He did great.

And then he looked at me and he said, I want nothing for my birthday.

I love that flight.

You seem serious.

So, okay.

I am serious.

And I'm like, and honestly, I don't know if I can

get anything in mind.

So her birthday, when she didn't want anything, wasn't cheap.

And we need to save some money.

And so I got to take one for the birthday.

I told you I didn't want anything.

Yeah, I know you did.

You not want anything, ain't she?

The fact that you got her something.

Exactly.

Like what I told you I'll do.

You're crazy.

Yeah, well, we have a great episode lined up for you today.

First and foremost, we never say this.

Like, subscribe, tell your friends.

You know, hit that follow button.

Is there a follow button?

Subscribe button?

I don't know.

Wherever you're listening to us, however you're enjoying this show, be sure to tell your friends on Spotify.

Apparently, you can DM someone now.

Yep, send a message.

Maybe you're tuning in for our special guest, Katie Janella, is with us.

I think she's bringing her husband, who I don't think she's planning on having him appear, but I'm a big fan of Matt.

I'm not Team Anyone, as I told Katie, but

I think most people in this,

who's Team Katie?

Me.

I am.

Her husband's hot, too.

He is cute.

And I'm team.

I ride for her, Charlie.

I'm team Matt, uh, for sure, because I just love a supportive husband.

Same, same, you know, even if Katie is wrong, and I'm not saying she is, and a respectful

husband is respectful.

The way he said he checked Tamra out the door was just like, girl, you, you talk shit about my wife.

Like, let's not do this.

And I was like,

I didn't like a housewife.

He's fighting a husband and we love it.

There's a fact.

But it's also like, God forbid, a housewife commits a minor infraction.

You know,

we're acting like she did something terrible.

I don't need my wife to be

right right with her friends.

Exactly.

You know,

you care about her.

I care about her.

And I care about you, Katie.

And her coworkers.

Let's be real.

They're co-workers.

And they're picking on Katie.

100%.

Anyways, Katie's with us.

We'll get all of your burning questions answered with Katie.

Also, we have Cecilia.

Did I say that right?

It's hard to say.

I just learned how to say 1,000th.

But do you...

1000.

Okay, there you go.

There you go.

That coaching's working.

It is.

We are proud.

Now we have to have our 1,000th episode right now.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I haven't really, it doesn't flow yet.

I have to still a thousandth.

Think about it, right?

So I think we'll celebrate our thousandth and into our thousandth episode.

It seems getting worse as you go on.

To celebrate our thousandth episode, Nick is going to say thousandth one thousand times.

That's the entire hour and a half episode.

Thanks yes,

Zebra, Xylophone, Mozart.

These are my words I have to practice.

Is this your practice?

You did all of them so well.

We have Cecilia.

From Love, Con, Revenge, a new show coming out on Netflix that's all about...

Love, Con, and Revenge.

Well, like relationship scammers, like basically Dirty Johns.

Romantic frauds.

Romantic frauds.

Excited to talk with her.

Which it is crazy to think that anyone would like give.

their money away, you know, like if a man asked me for money and was like, hey, I just need like a quick like 5,000 to help with my mortgage, I would be like, good luck.

No, but these people are fascinating.

These people say that.

But these men are so, they're, they're so like, I just, my dog died and my mom.

And I love it.

One's like a war veteran who like faked a hero story.

You know, not even, like, not even that he was a hero, that someone said, it was like, it's a whole thing.

I was like the wellness company one.

I was like, that kind of makes sense.

Or even the fact that they will like.

pay them back in the beginning smaller amounts to gain the trust.

It's like

that's a real, yeah,

it's a a real business.

We also had Kat and Dale on yesterday's episode of Going Deeper as they wrapped up Bachelor in Paradise.

They're still together.

Yeah.

They are still together.

And honestly, they look like they're doing good.

They're hot together.

They're hot together.

Dale seems like very understanding of Kat's emotional side, which I don't think most men are.

And I love that for her.

Yeah.

Dale does speak like a politician.

He does.

Sometimes I ask questions and I was like, I'm not even entirely sure what you're saying.

Yeah, but I was like, okay.

It's long.

It's well thought out.

It's long.

It's had a lot of sentences out.

Yep, it is.

It's not the worst thing in the world to have a man who's PR trained.

You know, the other, but the flop side of that

is worse for sure.

I kind of, and also, like,

I believe Kat's version of events when it comes to some of the, like, we had Alicia

who told her story yeah um we didn't have Prisa on Prisa sent me a message basically saying Kat's a bully right I thought based off of Alicia being here that Kat was dating someone else I might have read into that incorrectly well yeah I mean Alicia said point blank and I mean they said it on the finale that Kat went into Bachelor in Paradise with a boyfriend this boyfriend was like friends with Sean some text messages or something but I really put an iPad in we asked Kat about all of it she answered all of it.

I believe her version.

And I do, because I do, I do think sometimes, to Kat's point, people don't stop their lives to go on this show.

Right.

This idea that you're supposed to like cleanse both figuratively and emotionally and mentally your life and your body

if you go on a bachelor world for love that you're supposed to like abstain from talking to anyone, communicating with anyone.

Many of these people, like Kat and Dale, decided to go days before they actually went, not sure if they're going to go.

No one in dating culture today is defining relationships.

No one.

Yeah.

You know, no one has a boyfriend or a girlfriend.

They're all just dating.

So like maybe Kat was dating someone and talking to someone, and maybe she went on a show not thinking she would meet someone.

I just don't think that's much of a crime that many people who go on the show try to weaponize and use against their peers.

I just don't think it's that much of a crime.

And if Kat really met someone like Dale and was like, I really like this guy,

I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

And I also don't think going to the bars is spending the holidays with someone.

And so if she's telling the truth, then Sean and Alicia are giving...

you know, the typical, like, we didn't go as far as you energy, and we're going to use your typical bachelor tropes and accusations to try to like take you down because like we didn't have the same experience that you had.

That moment was embarrassing in my opinion, secondhand, when they were like exposing cat and it was just like, we're going to call, we're calling a meeting together and I was like, oh, this is, this is not landing the way that you think it is.

And it's kind of like the age-old bachelor thing where it was like the person that tries to get somebody else kicked off by being like, no, they're awful and they're this.

And it's like, you're gone.

Yeah.

Like, no.

It did not work out the way that they intended it to.

Yeah.

So like, if they really are together and they seem to be,

i'm not sure what what what's the crime yeah you know they went on a show they met they fell for each other no crime it's not that hard to believe that cat didn't have a boyfriend she was like talking to a guy yeah anyways dancing with the stars has revealed its new cast and it seems like it's pretty good headlining that cast uh you know you're not excited dylan efron well loved obviously like love dylan ephron alex earl you have jen and whitney from secret lives of mormon wives i also love the uh the combination of hilaria Hilaria Baldwin with Gleb, like the drama.

I'm sorry.

Did y'all see her tagline?

No.

She's dancing with Gleb.

She's dancing with Gleb.

The concept of Alec Baldwin watching his wife on Dancing with the Stars with Gleb.

Gleb was also partners with Lisa Vanderpump, and there was like a bunch of scandal about them being a partnership because they kind of always like lean into things.

We got to get Hilaria on.

You do.

Please go to the next one.

Have you guys seen the Baldwins?

Zoom into her tagline.

Can you zoom on that?

They have taglines?

Well, it's like their jobs, jobs, you know, like they're like...

What is hers?

Yoga instructor Alec Baldwin's wife.

Have you guys seen The Baldwins?

Have you ever watched it?

No.

It's one of the

most brain-melting things in the world because it's like...

Obviously, Alec Baldwin had that whole thing with that movie where he did that thing.

And

yeah, where he killed someone.

Accidentally.

Accidentally.

And everyone was like, this guy sucks.

And then you watch the bald ones and you're like you know what put him back on tv give him a role he needs to get out of this house listen i don't know what happened that said that movie and accidents can be terrible and i i don't i don't know what's going on there and i whoever

involved very sad very sad um he seems to be a supportive husband who loves his wife he loves his wife and all her accents and i think that's an admirable trait uh-huh you know even when she's like yelling at him on a red carpet in front of an interview

Or when he's just like sadly walking next to her on a beach on the Baldwins.

Maybe it's just a whole bit.

It could be.

He has like 18 kids.

Yoga instructor.

I guess so.

We got Dylan Efron, Robert Irwin, Whitney Levitt, Jen Afflack, Alex Earl, Danielle Fischel.

Topanga.

Topanga.

Jordan Childs.

I really think

Dylan's going to go far.

Jordan?

Dylan.

Oh, I think Jordan will too.

Jordan Childs is like incredible gymnastics.

But that's, again, they love a non-dancer who might support.

Joey, right?

Danced very well.

Danced excellently.

But like a lot of people didn't expect Joey, former bachelor, for have his hips be as loose as they were.

Jordan Chiles, like, okay, gymnasts is like, okay, like Alex Earl, we're expecting her to crush.

We're expecting her to know how to dance.

Elaine Hendricks is

Diva.

Meredith.

We have Scott from Pentatonics.

Don't know who that is.

I do.

Amazing voice.

Incredible voice.

Yeah.

He's that amazing voice down there trying to replicate what he's doing.

They have like

it

on YouTube.

It's like hallelujah.

Him and his

group.

Madeline, you know Pentatonics.

I just do not know.

Circa 2014 to now.

They're massive.

I mean,

you grew up in the South around Christmas time.

You heard Pentatonic.

No, no, no, no, no.

I heard.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, I didn't.

I'm going to tell you who I heard.

Who did you?

If I could think of their name.

Acapella, the little drummer boy?

No, it was all the sisters.

Oh, Cimmarelli.

Cimmorelli.

That's, yeah, I don't know these people.

I am so sorry for this man.

I am so sorry for this man, but I do not know this man.

Anyway, really great.

Lauren Drugi from Fifth Harmony, which they just reunited with out Camilla Cabello.

I know.

She's in Miami.

But she commented some hearts, so no heart feelings.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She did comment heart.

Justin has really been writing.

So it's going to be Fourth Harmony.

It might be.

It might be comment.

Like Camilla just couldn't make the flight for like the one performance.

Camilla's too big.

Normani was on my season of Dancing with the Stars.

I love Normani.

Cool.

And I was talking shit then.

I was like, why aren't you guys Fourth Harmony?

When I was trying to get in her head.

But she's a lovely person.

She's become a solo artist.

Camilla and Normani are the ones that blew up the most out of all of them, I believe.

Yeah, on a solo album, too.

I liked one of her songs, so that's why I'm like, maybe it's just niche.

Is she the bisexual one?

Why is it always about their sexuality?

I just personally, growing up, remember which one was bisexual.

I don't care who you love.

Period.

Do you think Sidney Sweeney cares about Scooter Ron?

You know what?

I respect her again.

She don't give a fuck.

Sidney Sweeney dumbs.

Her dating the most hated man in America alongside, I don't know, Kanye West is like crazy.

She's committing to the bitch.

She don't give a fuck.

She's like, I'm going to do me.

I'm going to do what I want.

I'm going to make my money.

I'm going to go to billionaires' weddings.

I'm going to date

unpopular men in pop culture.

She doesn't give a fuck.

Them allegedly meeting at the Bezos wedding, too, is like the funniest part.

It checks out.

It does.

It just really is like, yeah, that makes sense.

In a world where we need to have the guts to just be us and not worry about what everyone on the internet is saying because no one can mind their own business.

Like now they was pointing out the other day, like everyone in this thinks everything is about them.

It was, I don't know if y'all have seen this, but it was this woman and I cannot remember her name, but she posted a video.

I guess she's married to some like Major League Baseball player.

She posted a video saying that like she's pregnant.

She's going into the hospital to do like the hospital tour and she like didn't have her husband with her.

And she was like, oh my God, guys, I was like so embarrassed because like everyone was probably looking at me like, oh, this is just some like young girl who got knocked up.

Like she's probably like some single mom.

And I was like so embarrassed.

Everyone in the comments is like,

I'm a single mom and I'm not embarrassed.

It's like everyone just takes everything so personally.

It's like, why do you let that offend you?

Like, I was raised by a single mom and like, I, I read it, I heard it.

And I was like, oh, okay.

And I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

She felt embarrassed.

Like, who gives a fuck?

Yeah, she just like wanted her husband there.

And it was just more like she, her husband wouldn't normally be there if he wasn't like throwing baseballs 100 miles per hour.

She wishes he was there.

And she was expressing that.

And the whole internet fucking came for her.

And she had to make an apology video being like crying, like this isn't what i meant like i'm so sorry to everyone i've offended and it's like guys y'all have got to be able to just see something you don't agree with and scroll emotionally regulate

and that's why sydney sweeney is like she is helping she's healing america by letting people know it's like honestly if you don't like what i'm doing move the on sure

i don't know if people are able to move on from sydney sweeney i think you should i think

it's really not your problem whatever she did

she did make a good point about the bath water thing she was like everyone loved it when jacobi did it after salt water, salt bath, whatever the fuck was it?

Yeah, that's a salt water taking movie.

I loved it.

But like, he made his bathwater bath bomb, and everyone was like eating that shit up.

And she was like, but I can't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Scooter Brawn is wild, though.

She's like, what?

Scooter Brawn is true.

It's like, what is going to piss off the masses even a little bit more already?

Yeah.

But it's like, at the core, Cindy Sweeney is just like a girl who moved to Florida and started dating like a

lame dude.

What?

Whoever the fuck she wanted.

Exactly.

And I'm like, that honestly tracks.

Good for her.

Good for her.

And also good for Cardi B because Cardi B has won her civil case.

Not guilty.

Or I'm just going to say it, innocent.

She did not hit that bitch.

Innocent.

Cardi.

She said, and I did not call her fat.

I called her a bitch.

She's not liable for any damages.

But what's crazy is on their lunch break while the jury, I guess, is deliberating.

Or before the jury breaks to deliberate, she goes outside.

And of course, I don't know why her team led her outside to the front, to the paparazzi and the news reporters.

Like she should have gone out a back door or a side door and she goes out the front and someone says something about her offset her ex-husband like fighting for paternity rights and like just like asking about her current boyfriend just like questions that have nothing to do with this case and she goes over to someone wanting an autograph takes their pen and throws it

at her assault trial she throws a pen at this reporter Again, I don't see her doing anything wrong.

I know, it was definitely valid, but it was like, maybe wait until like after the jury has like given you

your.

She said,

do you not hear?

Like, I know, I won.

Come at me.

And then the, of course, you know, the plaintiff's lawyer is like going to bring this up.

You know, they go back into court and he's like, well, at lunch break, let me tell you what Miss Cardi B did.

And he's like, and I have the video to prove it.

And he did, she did that on court grounds at this court.

He's like really trying to like pull at the judges like court, the court, on the court grounds, she assaulted somebody.

And the judge was like, Well, if the court didn't see it, then he's like, Well, I can show you the video.

And he's like, Mah, I'm sure you can, but like, the court didn't see it.

So

it's fine.

Let the Cardi alone.

Leave Cardi.

How do you think?

How do you think the Barbs feel about Cardi being innocent?

I think they feel great.

And props to Cardi B.

The Barbs?

Oh, the Barbs.

They don't.

They might.

Maybe.

Maybe some beef thing?

I don't know.

I mean, it's hard to tell.

I feel like the Barbs, I feel like it's barbs against everyone because of what Nikki has done.

Why can't these fan groups all come together?

Like, why can't the beehive?

What are the Swifties and the Beehive and the Barbs?

Yeah, yeah.

That's what Taylor Swift's fan base tries to claim.

Like, we all have crowns, right?

That one line she has.

You know, I don't know if the Swifties

are that kind

to want to give their crowns.

That's true.

Is that true?

They try it.

And the thing about the Beehive is, like, when they come at you, at least personally, I've been like, you know what I'm saying?

You've been attacked by the Beehive?

I haven't been attacked by the beehive but i've been like we're when we were talking about cowboy you do kind of look like a swiftie

okay

um

they were like i don't know how to take that oh my god

bandana in your hair i'm femme today you guys

um yeah american that it is anyway i was like you know what fair point i think sometimes when the stands come at you you got to be like you know what all right you know you need a city sweeney you know you need to not give a fuck yeah well you know who's doing that karen hooger She's released from jail and there's already cameras following her around.

Which is wild.

We don't know.

Did she just go to jail?

Yeah, like, I think it was six months or something.

She had a quick little turnaround.

It was a quick six months.

Yeah.

You know, when you're not in the jail and you're not.

It goes by fast.

It goes by fast when you're not actually serving the time.

Yeah.

She was waving to the people as the car drove out.

It was cute.

Like, when you're a fan from the outside, it just breezes right by.

We don't know if it's Bravo cameras, though, but there were cameras in her car as she exited the jail.

I mean, who else would it be?

Can she make murder?

Like her own personal GoPros?

I feel like that's not right.

I mean, season 10 premieres October 5th.

So yeah, they probably just did like a pickup

or an ID documentary called Thomas Jefferson's Concubine.

She should make merch.

That's still like my favorite thing ever.

It's the funniest thing you could say.

TJ's comp.

TJ's comp.

I think she's going to try to hide that in her past.

She definitely is.

She's burning that.

She's wearing that.

And Brittany Cartwright went on a romantic getaway with her new boyfriend.

So it's confirmed the man.

So it is confirmed that man.

And is he married?

Jackson Shore.

According to the woman claiming to be his wife,

she says that they're married.

She says that they're married.

Wait, there is another person out there who's claiming to be married to Britney's boyfriend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's like left a comment on there being like, that's my husband.

I'm going to try to find it directly, but yeah.

Oh, boy, Britt.

According, like, they're both going through separation is what I'm hearing.

That's what I heard.

And like, that's how they've come together.

You're going through separation.

That's not your man.

So anymore.

You're trying to separate, or he's trying to separate from you but can't she just find a free agent there's plenty of single lonely men out there that's it i also like the the the dynamics of like a separation versus like going through a divorce though where i'm like so because it technically is still her husband right because they haven't filed for divorce

listen if you're on a date right and divorce takes a long time and it can be messy and you go on a date and someone's like listen I'm married, but I'm separated.

I'm not divorced.

Like, immediately you have a lot, like, you have a long list of questions to ask.

How does your wife feel about this?

Even if you hate her and don't want to date them, like, is she going to, is she going to be a problem?

Is he going to be a problem?

Are they going to be going on my Instagram commenting, that's my husband?

Like, is it really worth it?

Like, and in my experience, people who are separated, but not divorced, where they have like messy divorces and they're already going on trips with their new partners, like usually those things don't

especially somebody who would be photographed.

So I would say that, but I'm like, it's also giving um an air of like randall and lala with the ex-wife being like we were still married but he was telling her they they were separated also kristen said she met the man and like he's a genuine person right so brittany so it seems like a good relationship this is just messy do you think britney paid for the vacation or do you think he did i just don't think brittany wants peace she paid for everything the jacks i don't think we know anything about this person besides his name brandon yeah and that his ex or his wife is commenting saying he's my husband and that man is married

i don't don't know.

Is that scammer material, do you think?

I mean, they are selfieing it up on this beach.

It's potentially scammer material.

Yeah.

You know, married but separated.

Immediate red flag.

The insider divulged the pair reconnected well after he had already been separated and explained that they found comfort in each other as they've been navigating their respective divorces and personal life changes.

I mean, like, is Brittany even officially divorced yet, or is she still separated?

But they said, I think they're both separated.

I don't know that official filings have happened, so I think that the term of being married.

It seems like this woman maybe saw her legal husband getting some attention

with a fancy public spacing relationship and was like, let's absolutely the fuck not.

Such a messy

people do it.

It's just like it's gonna, it's not, it's not gonna not be messy.

Yeah.

It's just, I just don't know that this would work out well and like hashing it out publicly anyways.

You know what I mean?

Good.

Did you see Allie Luber move to Charleston?

We heard about it.

We did hear about it.

I think maybe it's just like she's summering in the south.

Yeah,

she's following her astrology or whatever it is and just seeing what happens.

She's following the charts.

The charts, yeah.

She's following the charts.

Maybe just like the chart led her to like a month-long Airbnb.

Speaking of which, we followed the charts on Tuesday's episode.

We had Not That Cosmic, an astrologist who accurately predicted the fallout between Love Island's ace,

Nick, and Taylor and gave her predictions on Nicolandrea, which speaking of fan bases, I don't know if if they have a name.

They were not pleased with her prediction and it came for us.

Oh.

So I was like, I thought we said something nice about Nicolandrea.

And then I forgot that we had the astrologer on who gave their prediction.

Oh, that

they were going to either define the relationship or break up.

Yeah.

And I'm like, isn't that just

they were going to define the relationship or break up?

You do one or the other anyways in life.

They spend X amount of time.

They're either going to get married or break up.

I don't think we're allowed to say their name unless we're just simply obsessed.

I personally am obsessed with Nicolandrea.

We're here for it.

Well, you know what I'm not obsessed with?

What are you not obsessed with?

The new doc on Netflix, Unknown Number, the High School Catfish.

I'm pretty sure it's just rage bait in a movie because there is no happy ending.

Go.

There's nothing to review.

First of all, spoil alert.

If you haven't watched, you want to watch, you plan on watching it.

Skip, skip, skip this part.

I do think you're better off listening to what we have to say.

You'll still enjoy it because it's a fucking crazy story.

It's It's a documentary, right?

It's a doc.

Yeah, it's a movie.

Yeah.

Well, movie and doc or nothing.

Documentary film.

Tell them about it, babe.

Okay, it's a documentary film.

A documentary movie just feels like that's not the same as a documentary film.

Well, it's not a, well, some docs.

Some docs are not a document you see.

Episode one, episode two, episode three.

This is just, it's an hour and a half.

Okay.

It's real life, though.

You were right.

This happened in 2022,

I believe.

And it is absolutely fat shit crazy.

So this 14-year-old girl is in a relationship with another 14-year-old boy.

They're in like junior high, however, whatever grade you're in, you know, young kids in love, whatever.

14.

14.

And all of a sudden, it's around Halloween and they get a text, group text, her and her boyfriend from an unknown number.

And it's like, Owen doesn't want you, you stupid bitch.

Like, you're not going to the Halloween party.

He wants me instead.

And they were like, oh, like, who's messing with us?

Like, this is so weird.

Like, okay, whatever.

Anyways, it goes on for two years.

Well, it stopped for like a few months, maybe nine months.

And then it started up again.

And when it started back up again, it became incredibly excessive.

Thousands of messages a day.

700 pages worth printed out of text messages over the course of two years.

Saying things along the lines of

you are anorexic, you should off yourself.

You should kill yourself.

And it's anonymous.

Yes.

It's all from, it's from a, a they like have an app that like changes your number constantly, so it's not like oh, just a someone's phone that they it's giving like pretty little liars, like it's giving

it.

So, then it's a lot of like uh Owen wants someone who will have sex with him and give him BJs and like you're not really disgusting messages, very

grassy, very sexual, very dark, very graceful.

And so they're giving teenage, like mean girl, right?

And it is Nally and I went to a rodeo the other other day.

Oh,

okay.

If you were skipping, you can stop for now, I guess.

It was at a family event and I was getting, I was getting some food for our family and I walked past this group of like, I don't know, I don't know how 12, 13 girls.

And I just, I walked past them and I heard some of the most shocking things out of the mouths of these young women.

And it was scary as a parent, but only,

sorry for interrupting, just pointing out that like like it is you realize as a parent that like your kids grow up fast and when they go to school like it's scary to think that 14 year old girls might say something like this but it is it is giving that like young mean girls who's maybe parents like let them watch rated r movies might talk this way yeah yeah you know because they're online

what is that movie where they say like hell is a teenage girl Yeah, like teenage girls are some of the scariest people on the planet.

So even though these messages are horrific, it is giving like, yeah, I don't know, maybe like.

And they're saying a lot of very like personal things, things that like, you know, only like the group of friends would know or like, yeah, so the, you know, the parents were like, this has to be someone who's close to them because they're, they know these details.

Either they're like following very closely or it's someone in this group.

They take it to the school.

The school starts like watching back security footage to try to see who's on their phone as the time of the text message comes in.

Like they finally take it to the police.

The police starts like investing, you know, like talking talking to everybody in the school, doesn't really come up with much.

They try to like pin it on some other girl.

Yeah, there's a couple like suspects, some of the girls who, like, for example, Owen had a friend who was also close to him who didn't get along with Lauren, his then girlfriend, who he described as not a bully, but not nice.

You know, police thought it was her for a moment.

And then finally, they come up with like a dead end.

And they're like, we just can't trace this number.

Like, we just can't figure it out.

So finally, they go to the FBI.

They pull in the FBI.

This is, we're now like two and a half years later.

The text messages are still coming in.

Owen and Lauren have since broken up.

Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip.

Sorry, just letting them know.

Whatever.

Listen.

Owen and Lauren have since broken up, but the messages keep going.

And like Lauren and Owen are still being kind of harassed.

He gets like a new girlfriend and then this new girlfriend who's like from like a different town's mom

starts getting messages.

He's like, hey, someone just texted my mom from a random number.

Like, do you know who this is?

And he's like, I'm so sorry.

Oh, Owen's mom, Jill.

I mean, these families are being harassed.

It's just like, it's this dark person who won't leave them alone.

And it's just like, they can't figure out who it is.

Owen's like

Owen's responding to the text saying, like, you're making me want to, you know, off myself.

Like, please stop sending me these messages.

Like, what do you want from me?

You know, it's just so dark.

It's so sad.

The FBI finally is able to track IP addresses from the app to the, to Verizon.

Verizon, it comes back as Lauren's mom.

Oh, that's a good one.

She's so sad.

This mother is telling her daughter that the boyfriend, she's not giving the boyfriend blowjobs.

A 14-year-old isn't giving her boyfriend blowjobs or sex and like she needs to do better.

Wait, wait, what does the mom do?

What is her so the mom turns out?

She worked for like a tech company.

She worked for a tech company and was fired by both of her jobs.

No, no, no.

Just was fired.

So they had a lot of financial issues.

She didn't tell her husband that she was fired.

She was lying to the whole family: Yeah, I got to go to work.

Meanwhile, she's literally just sending her daughter thousands of messages a day.

That was her job.

So, she was unhappy about her life.

And, like, how did they get interviewers?

Like, you told your daughter to like kill herself.

How could you do that?

And she's like, Well, I just knew she wouldn't.

So, that's

very frustrating.

She's like laughing through it.

It's sick.

What's the justice that gets served in such situations?

Well, she goes to jail.

She goes to jail

for the maximum sentence.

I think it was like 19 months.

For like federal stalking.

Not enough.

No, it definitely wasn't enough.

And they, you know, my frustration with the doc, I'm trying to find, they interviewed the director and there was a quote here.

It was like, what are the protections for the daughter when stored in the middle of the moment?

It's so sad because the daughter, well, the daughter's like, you know, while the mom's in prison, she's like, we talk twice a week.

She's like, I miss my mom.

Like, I miss.

It's

a lot of trauma.

It's really sad.

You know, she's like an only child.

She's like, that was like my closest person, my best friend.

Like, I miss her.

I miss the like feeling of having my mom around her.

The really frustrating part with the doc, to criticize how it was put together, specifically the director, it seemed to

empathize with the mom more than I wanted it to.

Because, yeah, it was just more like, well, first of all, the mom participated in the doc.

So while you're watching the doc,

yes, the mom's like telling you about what's going on.

She's crying.

She's being like, and these people were harassing my daughter.

And we don't know it's her until later.

We don't know.

No, it's her.

And then when they finally caught her, she said that it wasn't me at first, but then like, her explanations make no sense.

She's clearly lying, clearly this compulsive liar.

I mean, you can clear, this is like a sick person.

They don't bring any type of like psychologist up, you know?

Like it was giving, like, they actually, the, the, the principal of the school, who was kind of buffoony,

but had, had, uh, had a guess.

He, he kind of.

guessed his analysis or his like uh what diagnosis which seemed kind of accurate it was giving kind of munch housing a la gypsy road.

Like hurting her daughter so that her daughter needs her more.

Oh, interesting.

But certainly, but also there was like their clear, weird obsession with this Owen guy.

Yeah, like this, you know, because if it continued after they broke up,

and going after his girlfriend, and then you find out from after the fact that his mom like was showing up to his games, he's a minor too, which

so that gave it very weird.

And then, so the director was interviewed by Variety because people were surprised that the mom participated in the doc.

And she says, I quote, she actually ended up really loving the experience.

At the end of it, she said it was kind of fun.

She laughed about things.

And I think it was really an opportunity for her to think about things a little bit more in depth.

Every time I would ask a question, she would really have to think about things.

And I think that was good for her.

Who gives a fuck what was good for her?

If I ever saw this woman in person,

I would be arrested.

Yeah.

Like how this director was able to be like.

I just don't know why the director empathized with this mom more than like the actual victims,

like Lauren and Owen.

And I want a diagnosis here.

Bring on some psychologists.

Explain to me why a mother would do something this horrific to her child.

Right.

Right.

Like the best, the best we got was from the mom that giving like, well, I, you know, she talked about being a victim of some terrible things when she was 17 and talked about childhood trauma.

And it's just like, no, I get it.

Like we, now that's even become a bit of a trope.

And again, like, yes, our childhood traumas can explain some of our very bad mistakes and things that we do and have to heal from.

This is a whole nother level of like emotionally abusing your child and other children over the course of two years,

lying to your entire community and family.

I need you to explain to me something so dark and horrific other than like, I had some childhood trauma that I have to deal with.

And then the director kind of like humanizing this mom in a way that I'm just not interested in her being humanized.

Yeah.

That's kind of like the issue of like the ethics of true crime a lot of the time when you kind of get into it because at a certain point you are kind of platforming these terrible people in order to you're telling a compelling story first and foremost versus like trying to have justice for the people that this happened to.

I mean to understand the story you have to understand the mind.

Yeah, and you have to like and you don't even understand the mind because it's like this, just this mom who's like, doesn't feel like she really did anything that wrong.

She literally says, everyone's made mistakes.

And like, I'm sure everyone has done something illegal.

Like, I'm sure everyone listening has like drove drunk at least once.

Like, that's legal.

That's the same thing I did, but just like different.

Not crazy.

Are you crazy?

That was another question.

No one questioned that.

They just let this woman say that without any like objection to it.

And then she says something like, she was like trying to pull up a photo or something.

She's like, oh, y'all are going to think I'm a crazy lady.

Well, yeah,

we do.

You're sick.

But then like, it was,

I mean, clearly, you could tell the director didn't like, there was another set of parents, the parents of the alleged mean girls that they thought might have done it.

The one girl who Owen said, my friend's not a bully, but she's not nice.

And then they interviewed this person's parents who like, you can kind of like, you can, you know, if your kids are bullies in school, then you meet the parents.

Sometimes you go, oh, no, I got it.

It makes sense.

At the very, you know, they were like, I don't know why everyone thinks our daughter is a bully.

She just, she's just like popular.

You know, they're like, she just has friends from all the other schools, and they're probably jealous of that.

I'm like, okay.

And then at the very end of the dock, they get sound bites from these two parents who, you know, they're frustrated that their daughter got accused for something she didn't do.

Totally get that.

Right.

But then they're like, then they throw the local cop under the bus and say he's a piece of shit.

And then also blame Lauren, the girl, the real victim in this, and her dad, who also has been lied to by his wife.

Crazy.

Without any evidence.

They're like, I think they had a part in it.

And it's just like, no, they didn't.

And you could just...

And then that moment, you're like, yeah, now I know why your daughter is described as not a bully, but not.

But like, it was just full rage bait.

Like, the whole time, you're just mad.

Like, there's so many questions.

Yeah.

I'm going to watch.

I just, it's.

Are the parents still together?

No.

See, if I'm that dad, I know it's complicated, but like, if I'm that dad, I'm out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, the dad was like, when he found out, like, the cop has like the body cam on.

so you see like the copy see the you see the moment he finds out it's it's sad it's so sad yeah man but is it like as as new parents you know we feel so lucky to have river and and so blessed and we are trying our best to be good parents and and i'm sure we'll make our mistakes but it is scary when you watch these these docs to know that there are just sick people out there who are parents.

You know, there are parents out there who will like allow their kids to be 12, 13 years old and go to a rodeo and have their kids like act like adults saying horrific things that they're not supposed to be saying.

And like, how do you protect your kids from these people?

It's a scary world out there.

Homeschool?

No, no, no.

When I was 12, I was definitely saying crazy ass shit.

Yeah.

I mean, I got catfished by a girl I knew in middle school.

That's some crazy lore.

Yeah.

Yeah, on kick.

Oh, we'll see.

We were raised on kick.

Yeah.

So there's

an anonymous text.

And it was like kids

dating these adults that were like hidden behind crazy.

Yeah, there was this.

So I was like, obviously myself in middle school.

And there's this girl I was friends with.

And she was like, oh, I have this cousin.

And she's like in love with you.

And at the time, I was like, that's disgusting.

You girl on me.

I was like, you,

no.

Why would you think that about me?

But is she interested?

No.

I was like, and then it was like this like random person, like there was a whole name and everything and started like messaging me on kick.

And I was like, stop talking to me.

And then there was like a fake, she made like a fake Instagram profile for it and was like, if you don't want me, like, I'm going to go to the FBI.

And I was in sixth grade and I was like, FBI.

I was like freaking out.

I was like, oh my God, like, is this like per and but then at the same time, I was like, I know this is you, bitch.

Like, I know this isn't real, but it like still fucks with your head when you're like a kid like that.

I'm glad it is.

Anyway, yeah, I got catfish.

But I also think it's kind of terrifying because, like, at least when I was in school, like, it's like maybe like an anonymous note left in a locker, not like a whole like internet profile made to troll like items.

The whole community, whole school knew about this.

That's what I'm saying.

It's like the whole like internet aspect of it where I was like, I got it towards the end with like AIM and like live journals and things, and people would write anonymous like posts about people.

It's coming back.

There's social media apps now where you're like, it's per school.

It's like Ask FM.

Oh my God, Ask FM.

Exactly.

Up next, we have Cecilia Filhoy from Love Con Revenge.

Also, she was one of the victims on Tindler Swindler.

He is now going after perpetrators on Netflix's upcoming series that focuses on romance fraud, and they'll be going after some of the same type of people that conned her.

But now she is the one on the hunt, so to speak.

Love Con Revenge premieres on Netflix on tomorrow, Friday, September 5th.

So be sure to check that out.

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Welcome to the show, Cecilia.

How are you?

Oh, I'm good.

Thank you for having me.

We're very excited to have you.

Such, I mean, I don't even know how to describe Love Con Revenge or just, I guess, this

space, this, the scam artist space that you've become a part of very unfortunately, but you've, in the best possible way, I've seen to like, you know, reclaim your power.

And now with Love Con Revenge,

helping some of these other victims, these women who are being scammed by these men.

So just very excited to have, get a chance to speak with you.

I think this is a space that has fascinated so many people.

Obviously, Tinder Swindler captivated us.

It fascinated us.

It scared us.

There were so many questions and there's so many judgments that come along with this space.

I'd just love to start with hearing a little bit from you.

What has this whole experience been like kind of becoming a public figure from Tinder Swindler?

Yeah, let's just start there.

Yeah, I think what I say a lot of times is like, I loved her crime and suddenly ended up in one yourself.

I think I am one of the ones who always are on Netflix, like looking after the latest thing.

So kind of seeing kind of the popularity and what the Tinder Swindler actually became and the phenomenon, it was just astonishing.

But I think I was kind of lucky in the sense that how I was defrauded was just so wild.

So people had a real kind of what the F,

if I can curse the definition of what is

I can curse.

What the fuck.

So yeah, it's been mind-blowing to kind of that this is my job now.

That is very weird.

Yeah, obviously, I think when it comes to this space,

for lack of a better word to try to describe it, I think there is a huge fascination and shock, I think, for audience members.

Both like the, I think the shock of these perpetrators, these men, almost like the shock of like, oh, these, like, the realization that like icky men like this exist.

And then I also think there's a lot of, you know, quite honestly, like judgment and confusion as it relates to the victims.

And I think a lot of people have this like, how could you be so stupid?

How could you let this happen?

Certainly these lies are elaborate, but for someone who's been a victim, Can you try to put us in the minds of what it's like to meet these type of men and explain why they are so convincing and why they're able to do what they do.

Because I think in a lot of cases, these aren't victims who are stupid or

who you would ultimately think know better.

But what is going on?

Like get us into the psychology of why this is able to happen.

Yeah, I think first of all, I think fraud is one of the very few crimes.

I know there's some others as well where we're really focusing on the actions of the victims, then the actions of the perpetrators and the criminals.

And we're asking them why they did what they did.

And this would have never happened if we didn't have criminals kind of starting everything and making them do it, which is really, really sad.

But I think I always go back to that this is just so human.

And they're using that human trust.

And they're using that we're all vulnerable when we're looking for love.

And that is not a crime.

I always go back to it.

When people say, oh, you were too stupid or you were naive.

That is not crimes.

And these are highly sophisticated,

highly organized criminals that are coming together to actually abuse people.

And that is what I really, what my, part of my activism is actually changing that language, kind of falling for a scam, for example.

We don't say that you're falling for a rape or falling for a burglary.

You know, this is something that's happening to you.

So that kind of like you're being targeted by criminals.

So what is happening is that they take you through kind of a journey.

I call it like trust engineering almost.

They know the tactics that work when people are looking, for example, for love.

And that kind of now it goes into more crypto investments, you know, like let us build the future together.

Now it's not so much about people being in danger.

So they're doing love bombing, you know.

It sounds like that you found your soulmate.

A lot of people are lonely in this world.

And they're always wanting just to find that one.

And I just don't feel that it's right that we meet these people when they come out on the other side being, you know, abused and battered and we laugh at them.

So, for me, there's several tactics at play here where you both have future faking.

People really want you to kind of be together and create that future with marriage and kids.

I had that too, you know.

I was straight there, was ready when I was 30 years old to find the man of my dreams.

And that is all.

And after a while, it becomes an abusive relationship.

That's that's how I see it.

That you're in it.

And there's someone that is not treating you right, putting you into situations that they shouldn't.

For example, you know, taking up credit or taking out your pension or whatever.

But we can't see it because we're deep into it.

So it's very similar to a domestic abuse.

They isolate you from friends and family.

So you feel that it's you against the world.

So there's like plethora here.

And kind of the last one that I think is so important, why we continue to stay, you know, sometimes it's like, why didn't you understand why, for example, in my case, why did you end up with $250,000 before you understood you were being defrauded?

But we have something called a sunk cost fallacy where the more effort we put into anything, you know, relationships, business, it's much more difficult to turn your back on it.

And especially if you realize you've been,

you know, a crime has been committed against you.

And that's something that you've kind of done to yourself.

It's really difficult to get out of.

Yeah, well,

that sunk cost fallacy.

I think the most relatable example is for anyone who's in a relationship and their friends are like, I just don't know if he's your guy.

And they're like, but we've been together for four years or five years.

And

we've put in so much work.

And so many people stay, you know, minus take away the fraud element, just like a normal relationship that maybe isn't just serving itself or it's ran its course.

So many people stay in those relationships because of this idea that they've already invested so much.

And that's to your point, it's even in generally healthy, but just like, it's not working relationships, people will stay in those relationships much longer just because of the work they did in it.

And to your point, like, it's not shocking to hear.

It's just like when these types of atrocities happen to these victims, it must be very difficult to face that reality of what happened because

it must be a very scary moment.

I guess for yourself, when you realize you were defrauded, how did you come to grips with that?

Was it almost like this kind of out-of-body like experience where it just like you just, you couldn't come to grips that it actually, this is what was going on?

I think as I say, like, I think I waited two weeks.

I think I knew kind of for two weeks.

It's almost like the waiting room.

You just have to open the door and pass through it.

And that is.

When you know that your entire life is over, that is difficult.

So I think my body told me before I did anything, you know, overthinking it.

I got, became nauseous.

I was always throwing up at work because I kind of knew now, like, because he had turned on me and turned into this character that I never seen before.

And it was awful.

So, I can feel that a lot of the victims now, you know, when I'm doing the work I'm doing is like, because I've been there, I've lived it.

I'm not only having just sympathy and empathy with you, I'm a peer because I know the pain it is to actually having to realize that the one you loved never loved you.

Yeah.

Think about that.

I'm trying to put people into that mindset.

Like, we all need to trust in society.

And we can't go through life without loving or trusting someone.

And to get hit by that, that is,

you question yourself, you question your judgment, and you have to try to rebuild after that.

You know, watching Love Con Revenge, I, the point where it was kind of like, it's not a crime because, like, they're just friends, like, helping me pay off my debts.

Or like, for anyone who's listening, if they're in that situation of like, you know, this is how they've made it seem, like, is that a crime?

How do I protect myself if they just keep telling me like, oh, this is just, you're just helping me?

You know, like, you're offering the money to me.

I'm not taking it from you.

Like, you're giving it to me.

Yeah, like, this is what these criminals are doing.

They're leaning into the trope of society of like, you gave your money away, you know?

Yeah.

But it's the intent terror that we always have to be mindful of.

And everyone forgets that.

Like, it's fraud if you lie about the reasoning for the money.

You lie about your business, that your business is never going to be set up, even though you have some land.

Yeah, we have some different stories here that is just mind-blowing how far people will go.

And for me, that, yes, that is something that's very difficult in these cases.

How do you prove intent?

How do you prove that someone didn't mean to pay you back?

So, yeah, that is why it's difficult.

And that's why the...

That's why you have to gather a lot of evidence and you have to find a lot of victims to show the pattern.

Do you have any stats or is there any information out there of just how prevalent this industry, I guess, is, if it is an industry, of just like how many, is it specific like male con artists?

I mean,

are there women conning men in a similar fashion

the way that you focus on some of these con artists, men?

And do you have any stats of how prevalent this space is?

Well, like cybercrime as a whole is the third largest economy in the world.

So you can imagine how lucrative it is.

And we know that fraudsters are going from drug trafficking to do fraud instead.

Because think about it.

Digital here, no footprint.

And kind of the years in prison as well, far below drug trafficking.

So just by that.

And it's billions every single year, both in the US and UK, that is going into the hands of criminals just only on romance fraud.

So, and in romance fraud, what's very sad as well is that the number lost per victim is much higher than in many others, you know, because it takes longer and they can drain more of you.

And a lot of times, romance and investment fraud is combined as well.

So people lose a lot of money.

So

it's crazy to me how little we pay attention to it when there's so much money is going from, you know, U.S.

citizens to criminals and to criminal activities that are fueling terrorism and drug trafficking.

That is how I would look at it when people are saying, you know, oh, I don't care about you, you know, like, I don't feel sorry for you.

And then I'm like, well, we don't want this money to end up in criminal sense.

Obviously, we have a large audience of women.

Yeah.

And as scary as it is to say, there's probably people listening to this episode who probably are being defrauded and don't even realize it, whether it's being catfished.

or they're actually speaking to someone right now.

What are signs to look out for?

And what are some things that might be going on in your relationship that should raise red flags that

maybe in the early stages of a relationship would otherwise seem like kind of normal or just like, you know, there's a reason for it.

What are some things to look out for?

I feel like we have to go back into

what is...

kind of a bad relationship or a bad start to a relationship a lot of times where everything is moving very quickly.

They are wanting that closeness to you.

They're very similar to you.

They agree with a lot of what you're saying.

They want the same things, like the same things, which is that is what's so sad about this crime.

A lot of times that is just normal

that things are moving quickly or that you have the same interest.

But from these criminals, they're using that as manipulation and tactics.

For me as well, which is a very interesting one, is that they test you for compliance.

So nothing to do with money.

Of course, they will mention money quite early on and maybe they're an investment or want to know how much money you have.

But this is like testing to see if you will do as they say.

For example, will you change the time you meet up?

Will you change the kind of food you eat?

Would you just, you know, just change your opinion sometimes and just go after what they're saying?

And that is just to see what type of person you are.

Will you go with what they say?

Will you trust them on their word?

And it's so cunning.

I saw it several times in Lovecon Revenge because I was going through, you know the evidence-based like messages and it was eerily how similar it was to both my own criminal but throughout the season kind of just to see where I could see oh god here he's just testing her and she's going along with it and it's so sad to see that in hindsight you want to scream at them

And I think some of the things that I wish more people would do is just talk about the people you meet online.

The more other people around you see and know, the easier it is to get dragged out or dragged out of the relationship or situation you're in because

they are craving and are betting on that you will rather lean on you know your new boyfriend or girlfriend than your friends.

I think what's the one of the saddest parts about this whole space, to your point, you mentioned, is that there are a lot a lot of lonely people out there looking for connection, looking for companionship.

And even if it's not

like relationship scams,

you know, for money purposes, maybe it's just someone being catfished, right?

And the sad reality is the people being scammed, they are, at least early on, like getting some kind of emotional benefit from this, right?

That companionship.

They're excited to be talking to someone, even if they've never met them or FaceTime them, all the things that they go, if you've never FaceTime them, but they, you know, these lonely people are making these connections.

And I think it's very difficult for the victims to like wake up and realize what's going on.

And there might be people listening right now who can think of a friend or a family member who they think is being scammed or catfished, but they're having a hard time breaking through to that person because again, this person is finding some kind of companionship, maybe for the first time in a while.

What do you recommend for someone?

listening who might have a friend or a family member they think is is being duped by either a catfish or one of these con artists.

What can they look for?

How can you, as someone who's been on the receiving side of this scamming, how can you get someone to maybe wake up and see what's going on?

Because I think to your point, it's so difficult for these people to just be honest with themselves about what's going on because it's like, well, I don't want to lose this thing that I have, you know, this companionship.

And it's just a very difficult and sad situation.

I was at a a conference last week where there was a quote from a victim who said but this is the first time someone has ever told me they loved me.

Yeah.

And think about the power of that and that you have that.

So I think the more empathy we have and I think empathy is the word here if you're going to approach someone that you love because it's super difficult and it's not an easy thing.

I talk to a lot of banking people as well who's trying to get people to realize they're being defrauded and they're always asking me, what can we say?

Like they're just refusing.

We tell them straight out.

And that is the issue that you're telling them straight out.

No one wants to be told they're stupid.

And by you saying that you're being defrauded and that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a fraudster, you're kind of telling people that they're stupid.

And that is a very difficult reality to handle.

And I understand we should just understand it immediately.

You know, come on, someone objectively.

What I would love for family to do maybe if they have a picture of the individual, if it's a catfish, to go on Google Images or there are other kinds of software you can use to check if it's a deep fake, to check if some AI is being used or if there is a celebrity, you know.

And those cold hard facts might open their eyes if you come with that.

If you're saying directly, like, I think you're being defrauded, you need to come with some more than that.

And I think as well, coming just with empathy.

I think when I was at the bottom, it was a banking employee that just asked me, how are you?

and i was so beaten down that little empathy there instead of wondering about the money because of course it was a banking employee wondering okay what's going on here with the transfers and everything but how was i as a human being and just to take that calmness it's so important because we will go on the defense I was on the offense with one of the banks that was in mine where I even sent in a complaint email to them because I said, how dare you stop the credit card?

You know, so I've been on the side where I've been very angry.

And it's very unfortunate because by that, we will run straight into our frosters' arms.

And then they will tell you that, yeah, no one understands us.

You know, what you and I, what you and I have is very special.

And love is a drug.

It's the reason why we say love is blind.

And especially, but that is how some meet with empathy and don't go on the attack because it would feel like an attack if you say we think that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a froster.

Yeah.

How have you changed since your experience in the Tindler Swindler?

God, I was on breakfast TV in Norway back in 2019 and I went back recently to watch it and she saw me back then, so vulnerable, so distraught, had no idea what had happened to her at rock bottom.

It changed my entire life and I love that I can show kind of fraud victims now like the ones in Lovecon Revent.

That is another,

there's another side to this, you know, there, your life doesn't need to be over.

But I am, I had to file for bankruptcy.

I lost my flat that I owned.

It has been hacked, like huge consequences for me.

So that's why I'm trying to always say, like, the fight that a fraud victim has to endure is a lot of times afterwards.

Then the fraud in itself is when you have to try to rebuild your life.

But I'm quite privileged

by which both the country that I'm from, that a lot of people just trust.

Oh, you're from Norway.

Like, love your country, trust you, want to hear your story.

So I don't take that lightly that I have that voice and are able to help others now.

It's weird, but it's great.

Being someone who was a victim of such a

notorious con artist and the Tindler Swindler,

filming Love Con Revenge, did any of these victims' stories shock you in a way outside of your own experience?

Or did it feel like they're all kind of eerily similar?

The tactics are really similar, like how they make you feel.

I think that human element is super similar because we humans, we are much more similar than we are different.

But my God, I was shocked.

I thought

my

Froster was bad.

I thought he went to lengths.

He's nothing compared to some of these individuals that we have.

I can't go into detail, I think, but I think...

a lot of people are using other humans as you know

to seem legit they're using careers they're just using identity identity is so powerful if you say that you're doctor or a decorated military we automatically and they're living it i have to say this is insane as well this is different than the online ones you know they are living this people are seeing them and they have that real past of these military doctor businessman you know baseball player not to give a too minute much away but the the guy who referenced his military background who claimed to have a military service dog who had the dog.

And it's just like you would, you just, you would never think that that's a whole front, that that's fake.

You know, it's just that as I always say, Simon didn't do, he didn't do that.

He didn't, he didn't go through those lengths.

Yes, other stuff he did, but kind of what you get out of that and it's that callousness.

And as I said, these in-person ones are just so horrendous.

And there are horrible, evil human beings.

They can meet you face to face and give you kisses and be intimate with you.

I mentioned that in the documentary, which a lot of people are kind of losing sight of: that people are having intimate relationships with these people.

You know, what about that?

What do you feel when you didn't consent to that relationship?

There's so there's so many layers to what you, as a victim, have to come through.

But what most people are saying, what about the money?

And I'm more like, but what about them as human beings?

All of them are crying in this series because of what happened to them.

Do you think with the Tindler Swindler and I imagine Love Con Revenge is going to be highly watched and discussed and talked about, are you optimistic that you're bringing a level of awareness not only to, you know, the audience and the alleged victims, but also law enforcement as almost like a roadmap to how to finally start holding these scammers accountable?

Because like to your point, like you said in the doc and you've said it here today, it's it walks this really gray area of like, like, this seems fucked up, but is it a crime?

You know, like you even mentioned in the doc, like there aren't even exactly like specific defined laws in place to prosecute these criminals in a way.

And do you feel like there will be a change in legislation or laws that will actually make it easier to go after some of these scammers?

I really, really hope so.

The thing is that there are laws in place, they're just not widely known by both the police.

They're very difficult to prosecute.

There's several layers to this and levels in the U.S.

I was taught that.

That is many reasons why they're not going after them.

So the laws are there.

Like we have one where we have a DA from

California coming in, like theft

under deception.

So there is.

but it's kind of the time-consuming part and getting

a jury to actually find them guilty for a DA to do that, that takes a lot of false to do if they're not really sure if they will get a conviction because people have these preconceived notions about like fraud, you know, but you gave away your money kind of.

So that I think is really difficult.

What I am trying to hopefully get and change the legislation is that that they have to face consequences for what they did to us as human beings.

This is so much more than the money lost.

This is kind of mental abuse that a lot of them have suffered, and especially the one with the family.

And that is where I'm so sad that they're going to get two, three years in jail.

How much are they going to serve?

And then they learn from this.

That is the worst part.

They will only get better.

They will, you know, then jump states, you know, to continue.

I just get very angry because that is like the one thing I'm hoping that we can create those discussions.

Yes, as you said, Nick, about the law enforcement, how they meet the victims, how they talk to them.

But it's more one, they have to file a police report on the lawn outside the police house.

And it's just so jarring to me as a fraud victim, how a lot of fraud victims are being treated when they're coming in trying to report a very traumatic experience.

This is not just a car being stolen, if you know what I mean.

In February of this year, Simon launched his own crypto coin and released his biography book.

How does it feel to have him like still trying to make money off of this?

He did not release a book.

He did not release a book.

It's that it's another scam and fraud.

And I think that has been always so funny to me.

And I don't mean it like that.

Everyone was like going after us, you know, like, how could you trust him?

You know, how could you trust him?

And then every time he says something, he was going to be the new bachelor, you know?

And he was going to like all of this stuff, dating show and dating app and everything.

And I'm sitting there, he's a liar and he's a proven liar.

Why are we trusting him?

But yeah, he managed to find some other criminals over in Dubai and have this have this meme coin and went on several podcasts there with defamatory comment, Terry, about me and the other girls,

which is highly critical of, I think, the podcasters that are sitting there saying, like, yeah, I do believe you.

They made a hit piece on you.

And I'm like,

why are you believing him?

And then I have been approached by new victims of him as well which is really really sad and that is when everyone's saying to me you know move on with your life and forget about it is very highly difficult i'm not the one to turn my back on people and he's going after more and more vulnerable people so that i it's not being listened to that it's not getting a netflix documentary and he knows this now he's learned and um yes it's uh

For me as well, I have to say, it's quite funny to see him being angry and upset with the success

he's heard of course now about love con revenge and he's saying that I can't catch any scammers and everything so I'm like yeah continue you know it's like we are kind of I don't like to battle with him online but it's kind of just an interesting aspect to this that he's still out there how Did you like locate some of these victims to be able to try to go after their perpetrators?

Well, some of them wrote to me, actually, like after the Tinder Swindler, one of them wrote in the headline, there's a Tinder Swindler in the U.S.

So a lot of them have been very amazingly well at, you know, investigating their own story and wanting to do the same as I did.

You know, there's power and justice in getting the faces of these individuals out there because it will stop them.

Even though Salmon is still out there, a very easy Google search will show him who he really is.

I didn't have that back in 2018.

And I have wanted to be able to do that for others.

So there is, and

I just hope that we can, you know, help a lot of other victims.

I have to say as well that we do have a male story in the series because that is a very important factor of the show.

That is not only, I think, I know, Nick, you asked that question earlier about how many are there more men than women.

This is not a gendered crime at all.

It's 50-50 split between men and women.

There's a lot of men hurting in this in silence.

They would rather go to the grave with this.

And I think it's so, so sad to see that there's so many, there are many stories that are not being told because of that.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for having me.

This is crazy.

I mean, it's just so much to digest.

Where can people find you?

Obviously, Love, Calm, and Revenge is out tomorrow.

But where can people find all the other things that you're doing?

And just plug away.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

I actually am an author now as well.

Okay, me and Pranilla from the Tinder Swindle.

We came out with a book called Swindled Never After.

So I would, that is more of a continuation of the story, more expert

commentary on the problem that we're facing.

I'm on Instagram, Cecilia underscore, my website, CeciliaFjelhoy.com.

So there's many ways and reach out.

And I'm a founder of my non-profit, Love Said.

It's on loveset.org.

You can come and get both step-by-step help and support if you are a victim of romance abroad or if your friends and family were there to support you if you need.

Well, Cecilia, I really appreciate it.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Again, sorry that you were victimized, but it is very encouraging to see the work that you're doing, knowing that you are helping a lot of people just get through this because, yeah, like you said, I mean,

it's just so sad to see, one, you know, the crime being committed, but just the healing process that it takes for these people to overcome not only the financial, but the emotional loss that they experience.

really quite devastating.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you again.

Thank you.

That was wild.

Yeah.

I feel like these scammers should be on a list or something.

Like, it's just like, if you're going to serve minimal time for defrauding people, and I don't know what, you know, but I'm just like, I feel like there should be like a list or some sort of registry that like, if you're out free in the world, I should be able to look you up and see that like you have done this to other people.

I'm like, I don't know why that's so hard.

Yeah.

It is crazy that this, this, the Simon, the Tinder Schwindler, is like signed to a like agency.

An agency, yeah.

And it's like, he's just out there like on podcasts, writing a book, like wanting to be an actor.

It's like, this is just, it is crazy that they, yeah, like they're allowed to have careers.

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When I got your DM, I was like, oh, fuck.

I was like, oh, shit.

I said no.

And you were like, why did you say no?

I'm like, because you scared the shit out of me with your questions.

That's why.

What's wrong with my questions?

They're very snarky sometimes.

Ooh.

Are you a fan?

Do you listen?

I just gave myself away.

No, when

some of the guests that you have on, I do listen.

Yeah.

You're good.

You're a good interviewer.

Oh, thank you.

I hope they're not hard.

I hope they're just.

Well, because you're not on the receiving end.

Well, if you have nothing to hide, they're not hard.

But welcome, Katie.

Thanks for having me.

I'm very excited to have you.

We are excited.

Thank you for coming.

Katie, first,

you may have not heard.

I don't know if we'll keep that part in.

First, declined the invitation.

I did.

To come on the vial files.

I did.

And then I begged.

You didn't.

Well, you sort of, not really.

No, I DM'd.

I was like, Katie,

you're like, why did you decline?

And I literally said, because you scare the shit out of me.

And then I said, I promise you a great time.

Well, let's see.

And I'll keep going.

She said, I'm waiting.

Yeah.

When does that start?

You haven't had fun yet?

Well, it's really nice to meet you.

You have a room full of fans here.

I told Katie I'm Team No One.

He did, which I thought was kind of rude.

I commit.

Team Katie.

Thank you, Kevin.

You're doing good.

Listen, I appreciate it.

It's like, I can't, you know, a different franchise.

I won't say who.

It's like, I want so and I'd love to get so-and-so on.

And then you're here, like, well, they're not going to come on because you had so-and-so on.

And

it's just like, I, you know, I'm just trying to play fair.

Sometimes childish.

It does.

So, yeah.

Thank you for coming.

I really appreciate it.

But yeah, I'm not, I don't want to take sides.

I just want to hear everyone's, we're just, we're just fans of all of you, you know?

Okay.

Where do you want to start?

Can I start with Kiki?

Okay.

You want to get right into it?

Do you want to start with like how you got on the show?

I would say that I don't really want to discuss Kiki.

I think there's been enough discussion.

I think that it's giving her more time, the time that she asked for.

Okay.

So you didn't talk to her?

I did.

We did have lunch.

Okay.

We first met in LA.

I was at a Bravo Diamonds and Roses or something party.

And she was there.

And I went up and I said, oh my gosh, I've been following you for a long time.

I love your true crime and your pop culture.

I think you're amazing.

She then followed me on social media and I DM'd her like, honored.

This is so cool, right?

Being that my husband and I have been in media, especially my husband over 20 years, it's not weird to know a quote unquote journalist, someone in the media.

So I was like, oh, this is cool.

Like she seemed like a cool girl and I loved supporting her.

And then she messaged me that she and a friend were coming down to Orange County for lunch and asked me and Jen to lunch.

Jen was somewhere.

I was out doing errands and I said, sure, I can pop by for a little bit.

And we had lunch.

Do you regret having that lunch with Kiki?

I do.

I do.

I do regret having lunch with Kiki.

I think I idolized her a little bit.

I loved supporting a woman in this social media pop culture bravo reality TV space and also a woman of color.

And I loved that.

And I think that when we sat down and she said, everything is off the record.

Everything is off the record.

She didn't hold true to that.

And I did not tell her the thing that you're going to ask me if I told her, but we discussed a lot of things that lunch, mostly how I felt about being a housewife in my first season.

So you think she's lying?

I think that we have

different interpretations of the truth.

I was about to say, do you feel like it's more of like a miscommunication where it's like you, and correct me if I'm wrong, said she went to the hospital and Kiki took that as like, well, you only go to the hospital if like something's wrong.

So like, I did not bring up Gretchen.

Oh.

So there was no reason for me to bring up Gretchen.

This was early fall that we had that lunch and Gretchen didn't even let Jen or I know.

Well, I can't speak for Jen, but Gretchen didn't let me know she was even coming back until like the middle to end of December.

So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen's name up.

Gretchen was a very new friend.

We had had a triple date, which I'm sure you guys have heard about now.

Mastros.

Yes.

And yes.

Matt's here, everybody.

Matt is here.

He's going to nod.

He has duct tape over his mouth currently.

I know.

And

just as good looking in person.

He is.

Better.

Very.

Yeah.

Honestly.

Better.

Very nice.

And that was the first dinner I'd ever had with Gretchen and Slate.

So they were very new friends.

So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen up.

We were literally discussing me.

And I guess it just, I mean, did you think that it would ever turn into what it has turned into?

I know.

I, I was saying earlier that Jen and I talked on the phone at the beginning of the season before we started filming.

We're like, we think this is going to happen and this is going to happen and this story.

None of that happened.

It was so far from what we thought would be.

What were your expectations of being a housewife versus what the reality has been for you when you first, you know, sign the dotted line, so to speak?

I honestly thought I was going to become friends with them.

Not necessarily all of them, but, you know, a good amount of them.

And we would fight about petty things about like, I saw your dress at Eamon Marcus.

And then we would get over it because that's what I have watched.

It has become a little bit more dark, I think.

And I also was okay with talking about the custody of my kids and my ex-husband and that tumultuous divorce, meeting Matt and all of those things, because I think a lot of women do go through that.

I just didn't foresee it being used as a weapon against me that it was like, you're a bad person because of X, Y, and Z.

So I thought it was going to be like let's talk about this let's bring light to it also being the first asian american on orange county also being the first korean adoptee i think those are pretty cool things to share because so many people have commonalities with that so much in bravo world especially recently it was discussed in the valley with janet it's been mentioned uh on your show with you

being a fan of the franchise which i mean many of us are before we go on these shows and i think now that these shows have been on like orange county i mean how long has it been on 19 seasons.

19 seasons?

20 years

to find someone who's not a fan is almost

weirder to begin with.

That's what I'm saying.

So I guess

what is your opinion on it?

Because, you know, I can see both sides, but do you feel like being someone who watched the show or was some kind of fan, do you think that's been weaponized against you by your peers in a way that feels unfair?

That's a good question.

I watched Orange County in the very beginning, very, very beginning.

And then it got a little dark and I stopped watching.

And then I was in talks with casting and I met Gina and I thought, you know, I should probably watch the last season.

So it was on in the background, but I sat down to watch the reunion.

I wanted to see the resolution of things.

I've been a fan of

New Jersey in the past, Beverly Hills, right?

But I wasn't a fan necessarily of this franchise.

But tell me a woman ages 20 to 60 that hasn't heard heard of housewives or Bravo or any type of reality TV like Housewives.

If you have a phone and you have social media, it's on there.

It's very hard to avoid.

So even though I knew about Orange County, I wasn't necessarily watching every season, watching every episode.

I wasn't necessarily a fan.

I do think it can ruin it.

I have heard about a lady on the valley that is called a fan and that's been to her detriment.

I haven't watched it, so I can't comment on that.

And I get, you know, and even let's say you were.

I guess my question is, would you be afraid to acknowledge that you were a fan for fear that it would be used against you and do you feel like you know some of the ogs um heather and tamara do you think they yeah like use that against you where like even if you were it would be unsafe to acknowledge that even though it shouldn't be necessarily something that's a crime I think they would have used that against me.

Yes.

I think that they think, oh, you're a fan.

You wanted to be famous.

You wanted to get on TV.

I don't know.

I think that they do use that against women for sure

recently you and tamara have had some back and forths on social media is there a path forward for you and tamara yes actually um she reached out probably towards the end of filming the season and we kind of had some talks and um she's been in my corner i'm very appreciative and quick little thing speaking of all this i hear you're friends with shannon is that okay

no no no i'm just asking i heard you guys are buddies We had her on the show.

I like to think of her.

So she's friends with the media.

That's so weird.

Oh,

there you go.

That's weird.

Good, Katie.

That's weird.

Do you guys have lunch ever?

No, I have not.

I've only met Shannon in this room, and I like to think that we're friends.

Don't say that.

I do not claim.

No, no, no.

No, no, no.

We are not friends.

Well, I will say, interesting enough.

We've had Gina on.

We haven't had Gina on.

Friends.

Heather.

Tamera.

I saw Tamra's interview.

It was great.

I don't know if Heather thinks we're friends.

Yeah, I don't know if she claims us.

Fancy fan.

Well, because, I mean, truly, I mean, I don't know what people's perception is of us or this show.

For example, obviously, whatever you say here on the mic, we're going to put it out there.

Yeah.

I mean, unless you were to tell us not, I mean, we always say, we're not here.

We're entertainers.

We're not, we're not.

We're not journalists.

I don't know.

The quote-unquote journal.

I don't see my, we we don't spread rumors.

If you were to tell us something offline, it's not for public consumption.

Like we don't, we don't do that.

We don't even spread on like blog, like the blogger community, I'm uncomfortable with.

It seems like it's a part of the Bravo spear.

And we talked about this last week when talking about this whole, you know, what makes a blogger?

What doesn't make a blogger?

For us, like the anonymous pages I find to be.

Very problematic because there's just no accountability.

For all we know, they could be housewives, you know, pretending to be other people.

And again, rumors can be very destructive,

you know, even if there's rumors that are like half true and half not and things like that.

I think it's okay to have relationships in the media.

Yes.

You know, we've even had fun, I guess, at your expense when we're talking about, you know, you going to bloggers' weddings and things like that.

Did you, what was your expectation as someone who may have had some relationships with people in the Bravo world who consider themselves bloggers or were considered bloggers or somehow even adjacently connected to the community.

You seem to have some friendships in this space.

Then you became a housewife.

Were you surprised by what seemed to be these unwritten rules by some of your peers about like who you could and couldn't be friends with?

Yes, because half of my cast are quote unquote bloggers.

So that means content creators, podcasters.

Is that what you consider a blogger?

I don't use the word blogger.

I feel like blogger is like my space.

Yeah.

You know,

that's what they coined it as, but I haven't used the word blogger since literally MySpace.

Like, here's my recipes.

Right.

Here's my.

Right.

I mean, I had a blog ages ago about my children that I would like let my parents read and my ex-in-laws read and stuff like that.

But anyways, I also find it weird because my husband has been in media for over 20 years.

I've been in media.

So being friends with quote unquote bloggers is not weird for us.

You know, we eloped with some people, some friends, and Three of those people are quote unquote bloggers.

They're journalists and actual ones.

You know, I I guess so the guy that is helping me write my book right now is would be considered a journalist, a blogger.

So it's not weird for me to have these relationships.

I mean, Gina had a speed dial blogger, a guy that

to confirm.

Yeah.

To confirm she had his number really quickly to call.

Yeah.

And I don't have one of the people they're talking about's number.

Yeah, it was, it's not weird for me going back.

Should I have had those relationships?

Maybe not.

But the fact that I'm friendly with people in media is not weird to me in the space that my husband and I exist in.

Who do you think in your cast is being the biggest hypocrite when it comes to this conversation about relationships with people in the media bloggers?

Well, I mean, it would be a toss-up between Gina and Gretchen because when they had that sit-down with Kiki, Gretchen said, oh, it's great to meet you.

And Kiki was like, well, actually, we've met.

We've talked on the phone, you know?

Yeah.

And it's Katie, why are you speed dialing him?

And then I see pictures of Kiki and Gina show up on social media.

And, you know, she was very quick to reach out to the Kiki and this other person that's involved that's a journalist.

So it's kind of a lot of hypocrisy, actually.

Has your relationship with any of these people in media slash bloggers changed?

And because I'm asking, because again, like I just said, you do, you know, you don't know me or the show that well.

We have certain, like, I guess, rules that we try to abide by.

Again, we don't spread rumors or gossip.

If, if, if we get done recording and you tell me something, I'm not going to repeat it.

We've heard

some, we don't even say often.

It's just like, don't, you know, but that being said, now that you're a housewife, I imagine some of the people you were friends with who maybe don't abide by certain rules that we have for ourselves, where they will spread rumors, they maybe have anonymous blogger accounts.

Have you changed your relationship with any of these people in the media since becoming a housewife, given like how they operate and move in their world that maybe didn't, you know, align with you?

Yes, I will say two of the people that I became friendly with were friends of friends, So who have they happened to do this?

So that didn't feel as weird to me, but I have taken kind of like a step back.

I don't trust anybody.

I do feel used, but I also made some rookie mistakes that I shouldn't have made concerning the quote-unquote bloggers.

You know, I am more careful.

Speaking of friendships, like you went into the season seemingly closest to Jen.

Has it been hard watching her not take accountability for what she knew about the dinner with Gretchen and where do you guys stand today?

It is really hurtful because the reason you saw me go jen like come on is because she was there and she could have backed me up yeah and given me some accountability with these ladies and that hurt i mean i left that persian new year party gutted i mean i i was seriously depressed for days i laid in bed and cried and then thereafter weeks after anytime anyone would mention her name i would just burst out in tears and so it hurts because i loved her i invested so much time in her our kids became friends We hung out with our significant others together.

She came to my house all the time.

So it didn't feel great.

No.

And as of now, we do not, we do not speak.

She used what's going on with you to kind of get in with them because she was on the outs with everybody last season.

I don't know if it's that, but I feel like she saw me going down and she didn't want to go down with me.

Hold the line.

Why did Slade want you to hold the line?

And like, what does that mean?

I wish I knew really what the real story was with that.

All I know is when we were in New Orleans and all of that came out, I was getting ready for dinner.

I had no idea it came out.

I get a call from my husband.

Hey, Slade called me.

He sent me a 911 text.

He said that you might have sealed your fate.

He's on the other line with somebody in production.

Alex Baskin.

I can't, anyways.

Okay.

And

so Alex.

Yeah, so I didn't say that.

I didn't do the show as well.

Okay,

great.

Awesome friends.

And, you know, you have to hold the line for Gretchen, Slade said.

You, you know, back her up, say she never said it because we've already dealt with this with Bravo, he said, and Katie could get in a lot of trouble.

So me, being very new to my second season, was like, I don't want to get in any trouble.

You know, this scares me.

So I'm going to do that.

You know, I'm going to back up my friend because if we're hearing from a friend that I have to do this, that's what I'm going to do.

And that's what I did.

And now looking back, why didn't I just say, actually, you know, you did say that I should have.

But in the moment, I was literally protecting somebody I thought was my my friend.

I mean, is it frustrating watching this back and seeing Gretchen lie in real time about the hospital visit?

I mean, we watch her in the car with Tamara.

We watch her in her ITM saying she didn't.

We watch her saying she's never taken a polygraph test.

And then we see the footage of her.

And it was from the same

guy from years ago taking out the polygraph test.

So, I mean, how does it feel to watch all of these just like her lying, lying and lying?

I giggle a little bit

because she said it actually twice to Tamara.

Yeah.

She went to the hospital.

And then I heard her in an interview say, I misspoke.

It's not true.

I misspoke.

That's not something you really misspeak about.

You know, you say like, oh, I want to get the dark brown or the light brown.

That's a, that's misspeaking.

Right.

You did or you didn't go to the hospital.

It's not misspeaking.

I don't think.

So I do kind of giggle a little bit.

Especially when it started with, I was so sick, I had to go to the hospital.

Like it was like.

Were you frustrated that Tamara knowing that she knew Gretchen had told her she went to the hospital?

And then with with the polygraph results, her saying she didn't, were you frustrated that Tamara didn't stick up for you in that moment and say like, wait a minute, you just told me something different?

I mean, if it was right now, I'd be frustrated because we have a better relationship.

But at that moment, she didn't trust me.

Gotcha.

You know, but Shannon, you could see Shannon look at her like, wait a second.

You know, Shannon clocked it right away, I think.

I don't think she said anything because she kind of liked the pile on me, but they both kind of saw it.

you know now we've all seen it yeah

what's your take on the bloggers calling out emily and gina for dominating the group?

Give me a for instance on all you're talking about.

I mean, that was my question in general because I mean, I'm team you, but like I

as someone who like, I mean, I consume the blogs and like I just my take too as well is like I've loved Gina and Emily, but like it just after that night after the lie detector, it seemed like like they left you out to dry.

Like it was almost a setup in my opinion.

And just I think the blogs, in my opinion, are calling them out for it.

They are.

Like noticing that it was kind of like a setup and that it was, they just piled on you.

It definitely felt like a pile in.

And I thought it was a setup.

I went home.

I thought it was rigged.

Yes.

And I went home, Googled this guy.

He came up, picture came up.

My 21-year-old daughter was like, well, I've seen him.

I saw him on Jake Paul.

I'm like, that's a tough one.

Yeah, there's

allegations, allegedly, that there's a pay-for-play.

Correct.

You can look at a website that might belong to him, allegedly, and see that.

It's like, there's a truth, and there's like, how much do you want the the truth?

There's A, B, and C.

Yes.

And I, I thought it was a setup in my mind.

All right.

And then the episode came out and I see Gina saying, don't worry, we have a plan.

And then telling Tamara, don't worry, we got her.

Before you heard, overheard this.

It was.

So I watched it and I watched it.

And I was like, I was right.

Yep.

You know, it all felt, even when I walked in the door, the air felt thick.

It felt weird.

And that's why you see me get really

nervous.

Oh my God.

I, because we had just come back from New Orleans and I know they all hated me.

I had no friends in that room.

And even Jen, I saw her not stick up for me in New Orleans.

So I was like, this is, this feels horrible.

So I started to get really sick in the restroom.

And then she announced, we're going to do a polygraph.

I was like, oh, great.

Okay.

Let's do it.

You were right about Heather.

I definitely think Heather called the thing.

Well, I know I was right.

I didn't need a polygraph to tell me that.

Okay.

My sources.

Was it frustrating for you, regardless of whether the polygraph was real or not, that

despite

Heather proven to be a liar in this environment, they just brushed right past that?

They brushed right past everybody's.

They brushed past Tamara's

question about autism, being on a spectrum.

We had like a quick second about that and then brushed past it.

We brushed past Jen saying she was uneasy about marrying Ryan.

And then me, it was like, get out.

You need to go.

And I was kind of like, okay, I kind of want to go.

They did brush past some big confessions.

Yep.

But did you notice the only three people that passed with flying colors?

Emily, Gina, and Gretchen.

Going to the comments that Gina made about the Asian designers.

Yes.

Did it raise red flags with you or concern you that her reaction to Kiki Monique telling her that you had brought this up was more angry that you would accuse her of being racist on a national platform versus, oh no, I made my friend feel a certain way.

I felt like she got caught in the moment with her pants down a little bit.

And I just want to clarify that when I was cast, when they offered me the spot, that was my first thought is because of 2020 and a lot of things that have happened in the Asian

realm, I wanted to highlight Asian brands, Asian people, that kind of thing, right?

I didn't say I was going to wear Asian brands exclusively.

Like, does she want my brawn underwear to be made in Korea?

I don't know.

But like, I just wanted to highlight some really cool brands that maybe people haven't heard of.

For her to stick her business in.

Right.

So somebody telling me how Asian I need to be feels weird because I am learning my own Asian culture on my own.

I am an adoptee from Korea.

My daughter is helping me with that.

I have a really dear friend who's also adopted from Korea and we share stories.

I'm not going to be told how Asian I need to be.

That's for me only.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that it's something that you would like to at times prioritize and consider and go out of your way to make an attempt, but it doesn't.

And also feel comfortable with that pace.

Yeah.

Okay.

So growing up in Georgia, in an all-white community, if I want to take a slower pace learning that, that's my choice.

But I guess like, yeah, have, did, has she ever apologized for making you feel that way?

No, I have gotten zero apologies for anything.

Well, no, no, no, that's a lie.

I won't lie.

I have gotten one apology and it was a chat GPT message because my daughter put it in like this AI detector and it was AI.

Who sent you that?

Gretchen.

Cause I was like, wow, this is really well written.

And it says warm regards.

And I was like, that's wow.

I know who it's from.

It's from your number, girlfriend.

You're like, and it's summer and it's hot.

Warm regards.

I was like, that's interesting.

It's the morning I'm doing press in New York.

So

it was warm regards.

Oh, that was nice.

And what was the chat GPT apologizing to you for?

It was for the inappropriate video that her and Jen put out.

Oh, right.

So six days later, she sent me a warm regards message.

So after she got enough backlash to make her feel like she needed to cover her tracks.

Okay.

But Gina has never once.

No, no.

And Jen didn't apologize to you for that?

No.

But I really, I will say, Jen posted it, but it was Gretchen in the video that I felt was being inappropriate.

Okay.

Now, from the end of this last episode, when you're leaving, are you essentially being put on pause at this moment?

I think you'll have to wait and see.

Wait and see.

Okay.

But to that end,

why weren't you invited?

I know you mentioned in recent interviews that you suggested that production was protecting you,

which was really just frustrating as a fan to hear because it's like, we're

I don't care if they're getting along or not getting along.

it's just like this like this you you guys made this the drama so why are we not allowing

her why well right we are less interested in watching because we are a show of that i will say to your point and also i asked to show up i asked production can i just show up can i just show up tell me where they're staying i'll just show up and they said no it's probably not a good idea so i didn't they didn't give you a why um no what what do you think is the reason you think the women got together and said she can't come?

Do you think they tried to hold a hard line with production and demand be not invited?

I think that they have that kind of power.

I do think that production did see it was just a pylon and a constant me story.

And so they were like, you know what, Kitty, it's probably not a good idea for you to be there.

It's just going to be about you.

So why do you think all these women who without you aren't the closest group?

You know, there's a lot of conflict within these women.

Why do you think they have band together to target you in the way that they have?

If I were to guess, it's because last year I maybe made, I embarrassed them a little bit with things that they may have lied about or skewed.

And so this was their way of getting back at me because

the nanny reaching out to me, my daughter going on that podcast to tell her side of the story that she didn't get to tell on a reunion stage embarrassed Emily.

You know, me calling out Heather about paparazzi embarrassed her.

So I think that this was the way to like get at me.

What regrets, if any, do you have from season one?

What would you have done differently if you could?

You know, at the end of season one, I was regretful of a few things, but now I'm not.

Just like this season, I wish I would stick up for myself more, you know, being a little bit more vocal, but that this is who I am.

I am very much in person the same as I am filming.

I'm very much the same person.

So although I'm like, damn it, I should have said this.

I should have, you know, that's who I am.

I do need to get more confident in standing up for myself.

But in those moments, I was very authentic and very real.

So although I regret not being a little more vocal, I can't, I don't really regret anything from first season.

Was it shocking to hear Gina on Watch What Happens Live say that Heather was the one who did all the research on your past?

Not really.

No.

I mean, the way that they came at me, Emily and Heather, I mean, you could, you could put two and two together.

You knew it was one of them.

And do you think that the women are banding together to essentially get you to leave the show?

That's what it feels like.

Will you not do that, please?

I'll be very, I'll be very you can come on as my friend.

To that point,

are you considering, regardless of what these women want or what Bravo wants, are you considering not coming back?

Because who wants to show up to work not having friends?

I have not considered that.

Okay, period.

We love you.

She said I'm a bad bitch, Johnny.

I think I deserve a fair chance.

100%.

I think I deserve for people to get to know me.

I appreciate you sitting down with me because you are getting to know me a little bit more.

This is more than I was afforded in two seasons.

I think Nick even said when we talked about all of this, you know, when it was all kind of out in the headlines and whatnot, just that like, if this is how, if you were to this be your last season, it's like, how, how would anyone want to join this show if this is how they're treated?

If they're, if they're chewed up and then spit out and then they're just like, okay, on to the next one.

Who else can?

It's like, what friend, like, what show?

Who's that?

I never thought about it like that way.

Wow.

Do you think Bravo has a rookie hazing problem?

I don't think that's a Bravo issue.

I think that's a woman issue.

Okay.

Women do be hating women.

I know.

And I, you know, I've said this, like, why couldn't me surviving my first marriage be something we talk about and uplift each other about?

Why does it have to be something that is going to follow me with these people that I'm a bad mother?

You know, I don't think of it that way.

And I wouldn't think of it even if I hadn't gone through it if you told me that.

Right.

I wouldn't be like, oh, you must be a horrible person.

But I think that they grasp onto anything to make me look that way.

You obviously have been made to seem like a liar

on this show from the rest of your peers.

And I appreciate you sharing your side of the story.

Have you ever told a lie?

Of course I have.

Haven't you?

Sure, but specifically on this show.

And I only ask because I empathize because like a lot of your peers are liars on this show, have been caught in lies.

And

it would i i could i could put try to put myself in your shoes and be like well i mean if they're they're fucking lying why why don't why do i owe you the truth i lied when i protected gretchen

remind me what you what the lie was i lied when i said gretchen you've never said that before i don't know what they're talking about that was a lie

anything else any other burning questions okay i'm just like i also feel like do you Do you kind of feel like you're also being used as like a sacrificial lamb?

Because I feel like there's a lot of storylines that are like a lot of characters on your show that don't really have a storyline outside of you.

I think yes.

I think it's also easy to pick on you so the heat's off of me.

Right.

Right.

So reflecting.

So yes.

And I am not good at that.

What is your opinion on recording

people?

Like the conflict between you and Shannon.

I think she's recorded other people in the past.

Twice.

Three times actually.

I mean Shannon, I love you.

That's right.

Oh yeah, your friend.

Don't talk about your friend.

Every time I have someone on that Shannon doesn't like, you're going to get a call.

She listens to everything.

You're going to get a call.

Shannon, I love you.

You can't say that after the fact.

Yeah, no offense, but

no team.

But yeah, I mean, like, what are the

rules from what you understand them to be?

And what do you think they should be?

Based on California law,

if you were to come into a public space, you don't expect privacy.

with your phone on speaker in a public space when there's 20 plus people in the room, social media cameras, executives, you kind of figure somebody's going to hear your conversation.

Should I have shared that I recorded Shannon with Jen and Alexis?

No, I should not have.

I should have only sent it to Matt for Matt to hear the lore and have been done with it.

And I regret that, but I did.

And that's it.

Do you think it's a path forward for you and Shannon?

I hope so because we had a lot of fun.

Shannon is a really good time, but I don't know.

She is really holding on to this.

Was that another frustrating moment with Jen when she said she had never seen the video, heard the video, knew nothing about the video?

She's never heard the audio recording or seen it, but it was frustrating for her to not back me up in that moment.

Yeah.

Reunion.

What do you have?

You haven't recorded it.

His film?

No, next month.

What hill will you die on?

And are there any relationships over others that you hope to mend at the reunion?

I will die on the hill that I didn't tell Kiki.

And I don't know the answer to your second part of that question.

I'm waiting to see how it goes.

I think I'm owed some apologies.

Are you aware of anything that happened

on this cash trip that you did not go on?

Yes, you are.

Do you feel like any of the women regretted not having you there?

Because when one target leaves, another usually pops up.

And while, you know, all the attention was going to you, I'm still going to make a TV show.

I did say to Jen in the scene that will air tomorrow night when we're meeting for coffee, I did say, you know, if I'm gone, you're next.

Because that's how it works.

Are you good at seeing the future?

I feel like I am.

Maybe I'm a clairvoyant.

Okay.

I, um, what was the first part of the question you asked me?

It was layered.

He does that.

I did that.

I can't remember.

The hill you'll die on?

Hill you'll die on?

No, I answered that.

I forget.

Well, I guess it's more like, yeah,

who's going to be the most regretful that you weren't on that trip?

Oh, that's right.

Tammer has told me that one of the biggest mistakes is that i wasn't filming for that trip that she regret wishes you were i don't i'm just gonna say that it was i i wish i could have gone on that trip but maybe it was best i didn't are you feeling more confident or more scared going into the reunion both the reunion is not something that you go into you're like yeah i've can i cuss yeah yeah i got this you know that's not something you go into doing you can feel a little confident but also you never know like last year i felt a little confident and then they hit me with a semi about my custody.

So you, you know, you're not really excited to do this.

It is shocking that they feel like they have any legs to stand on after they did that to you at that reunion.

I feel like

me telling the nanny I can't talk to you, but my daughter went on this podcast and you weaponizing my custody is not the same thing.

Yeah.

Did Heather ever apologize?

She never really

did in the moment because she saw it got bad.

She said, I'm so sorry you went through that.

I can't imagine.

Off camera, though.

And I was like, okay, thank you.

And I was just trying not to cry.

And the amazing person that does my hair, who's here, who was also there at that moment, was like glaring like, what are you doing here right now?

He was like, get away from her.

Any final thoughts before we send you on your way?

No, thanks for having me.

You're not that bad.

Not that bad.

And I appreciate that, Nick.

Well, it was so great to, obviously, we only see so much on this show.

So it it was really great to sit next to you and hear more from your actual voice of what's been going on.

And you honestly, you seem like a great mother.

You seem like a great wife.

You are a great housewife.

So I really hope that you continue.

I will be very upset if you're not back next season.

Tell your friend.

Tell your friend.

Noted.

Katie, thank you very much for coming.

I hope you come back.

We may or may not be friends now.

Maybe I will.

Well, regardless of what happens with you next season, we would, you know, if you're not brought back, we'll have you back.

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate that.

I can promise you that.

Thank you guys for listening.

Where can people follow you?

Katie.janela.

Okay.

Go ahead and follow Katie.

Subscribe.

Tell your friends about our show.

If you haven't listened to the Dale and Kat episode from Going Deeper yesterday, be sure to check that out.

Lots of great episodes to listen to if you haven't listened to all of them.

We appreciate all of you.

We'll see you back on Monday.

Don't forget to send your Ask Nick questions, by the way, in case you have some relationship trauma in your life or problems that you want resolved.

We're always here for you.

AskNick at thevilefiles.com, I think, is the email address.

Okay, check it out.

All right, Bob.

We'll see you on Monday.

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