E1009 – Going Deeper with Amy Duggar King

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You're crazy.

Amy, welcome to the Vile Files.

How are you?

Why am I nervous?

Hi, Nick.

Hi, Natalie.

Are you nervous because you're like you're just nervous doing interviews, or you're specifically nervous for this one?

I'm specifically nervous for this one because I don't know what you're going to ask.

And I know you dig deep and I know you've got just a different personality about yourself that you just like, you found out answers.

Okay.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Yes, it's a good compliment.

It's a good compliment.

Well, you have your new book out or coming out.

Holy Disruptor is coming out, of which you get into a lot of details of your childhood, your time on reality TV

with the Duggars, which I, for me, have always been fascinated with.

with.

For those of you who don't know, for maybe who people are tuning in for the first time to listen to Amy, I have 10 brothers and sisters.

I come from a very large family.

So while I was never necessarily a fan of Meet the Duggars, I was very aware of it, you know, just because like as soon as it came out, you know, I immediately would get a lot of questions.

There was always this fascination with very large families.

I grew up very Catholic and was in a very religious household.

And, you know, most people knew that I'm sure like the questions when people I'm sure you're familiar with would meet your nieces and nephews, all the same questions.

Are you guys religious?

Are you Mormon?

Are you Catholic?

Why do you have so many siblings?

You know, are any twins?

You know, all from the same parents, you know, all these questions that come with it.

I was always very self-conscious of it because like I always saw my family as like relatively normal.

You know, we like every family have its quirks and

ups and downs, but we were always like normal.

That's so good.

I'm so happy for you, Nick.

So I was very, like, I guess

your show,

I was very like almost uncomfortable with it because especially as stuff started coming out

and it was almost as if the Duggar family ended up becoming the stereotypes some of the critics of religious families or large families would have that I would be very sensitive to.

Yeah, it was like I was, I was kind of, I was like, you know, like you guys are making us look bad type of thing.

Well, I wasn't, but I understand why you would feel that way.

Yeah.

Yeah, not you.

You know, no, no, no, no.

But like the show itself.

Yes.

No, I get that.

And obviously your, your book is all about coming forward as someone who's finding a voice through a lot of the abuse that you witnessed and even experienced on your own.

And a lot of the people who follow this show we we certainly love to give a voice to people who find their voice people who have been victims and we've all faced some sort of adversity and tragedy but people who are able to work through it and survive it and and you know be stronger for it on the other side you know it's hard to say better for it because like you don't want to imply that you have to go through abuse or tragedy to be better but if you can be stronger there's a silver lining or at least a um

reason for hope.

So I'm very excited to talk with you.

I hope you're not nervous.

And we certainly just want to

learn more about, you know, your story.

I guess just starting with, I guess what I am fascinated about is the relationship as I, you know, I didn't realize at the time, but I asked you, you know, like, how many siblings do you have?

Like, you know, I assumed maybe you would say, oh, I have six, you know,

not 19, you know, there's not 19 of us, but there's a lot, but you're an only child.

I'm an only child.

So explain to me how that happens where your mom is sisters of Jim Bob.

Yes.

The father of the Duggar family.

Yeah.

The infamous Duggar family.

And how does it go from you being an only child to having this close relationship with your family that had 19 children?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I just grew up.

My mom and dad had one child.

They were fine with that.

They were fulfilled.

And every time that my aunt and uncle were pregnant, it just always added more and more.

Every year was like another baby to celebrate and another baby and another baby.

So, I mean, I've held all of them, you know, I was, I was very, very close with them.

And it almost felt like I was like an extra sister in a way, you know, but I spent a lot of my time over there.

I mean, just I did, I did everything with them, you know.

So, y'all lived like down the street?

We lived like five minutes away from each other.

Do you remember

when the opportunity to turn this into a TV show was presented to the family?

I do remember.

What was that experience like?

And how involved were you from the beginning?

So I wasn't involved at all.

They started doing like a documentary.

It started off with a newspaper clipping and it had my uncle who was in politics and like six of his kids were like little ducklings behind him walking to a capitol.

And someone took a picture of it and said like, who is this family?

This is so cute.

They're all matching and color coded.

And it equaled, you know, a documentary being, being filmed and that kind of thing.

And then next thing you know, they get a call from TLC.

So it was just one of those things where it just kind of happened organically.

And I wanted honestly nothing to do with it because I'm not really like them.

You know, they have certain rules and restrictions that I didn't have.

And so it wasn't until

season one that I was just there picking up my grandma at their house and trying to just get her to come to the car.

And she refused and was like, no, you need to come inside.

And I was like, Oh, and it was when all the camera crew was there, all the things.

And so, you know, she had like a hidden agenda that she didn't tell me about.

And so, I walked in, and there they are sitting, you know, choir, you know, all meek and mild and silent and obedient.

And, um, and yeah, they're filming.

And so, I had to walk around the cameras, like trying to get as far away as possible from them to get, you know, to my grandma's door.

And, and yeah, they asked me if I wanted to be a chaperone for Josh and Anna,

who are adults,

but in their world, they need like a babysitter.

They need someone to watch after them to make sure that they, you know, behave correctly and walk the line.

And then how did you become like really a part of the show?

Yeah.

So in that moment, I'm walking, trying to be careful and quiet.

And the producer was like, I'm sorry, my, my uncle was like, who wants to be the chaperone?

Let's everyone put their names in the hat.

And I'm

drawing a name.

And I laughed out loud because, I mean, it's ridiculous.

These grown adults need supervision.

Like, what?

And so I was like, How old were they at the time?

And how old were you at the time?

They were like 20, I believe, 19 or 20.

Okay.

And I was a year older than Josh.

So like 21.

And I'm like, like, I just kept walking like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this.

And the, the producer saw that.

And he was like, who are you?

He kind of like zeroed in on me.

And I was like, I'm Amy.

I'm just here to pick up grandma.

Like, no big deal.

And he was like, no, you need to jump on camera.

And I was like, uh, and then that's how it all began.

Did you have a conversation with your parents about like, should I do this?

Like, you were, you were, you were an adult at that point, so you didn't really need their permission.

I didn't really need permission, but I was just like, hey, I already love my family.

You know, it's already something like fun.

Why not?

Let's just do it.

And so I became just like a part of the show.

What was your opinion of the Duggar family

at that point?

Were you kind of, did you see it through rose-colored glasses at that point?

Absolutely.

Yes, yeah.

It was like, I had them on a pedestal.

Really?

Yes.

Yeah.

They were the epitome of perfect.

I'm not even kidding.

Like the mom never screamed or yelled or got anxious or annoyed or needed a timeout from being a mom.

The dad was always providing, kind,

really fun, hands-on with the kids.

The kids were always like the kindest to each other.

They weren't allowed to be, you know, any kind of like bragging or stupid.

Yeah, they weren't allowed to call names, nothing.

It was like, it was like going back to like black and white TV.

Do you deliberately say the mom and the dad because you don't want to say their names?

I am watching legal.

Do you blame me?

Allegedly, allegedly, in my opinion, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

I have to.

No, that makes sense.

There's targets on my back, I'm sure.

Serious, are you doing this with a sense of fear?

There is a sense of fear, fear, but there's always a sense of freedom that comes with it.

So for me, it's like, I'm going to tell my story no matter what, because it can help people out there.

You know, you don't have to live the way that I lived for a very long time.

What are your aunt and uncle doing today?

I have no idea.

You have no idea.

I have no idea.

I haven't spoken to them in a very long time.

Are they still public figures in any way?

I don't.

I mean, maybe-ish.

Ish.

Do you keep in contact with any of your cousins?

I'm very close with Jill,

who had her had a book as well and it was great and she's wonderful and when she actually goes over to her parents house you know they had her mom and the cousins or her her um her brother and sister uh i watch her kids oh yeah okay so we have a very close relationship okay so at what age did you realize like wait this feels wrong the way that you're you're treating everyone like this feels icky Well, I mean, it took a very long time.

All the rules and regulations and the things that were like all over like the rules in the house were just like pieces of paper with like all these rules on it.

And like, it was just how they grew up.

So for a while there, I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything different, you know, kind of thing.

I mean, I did in my own world, but over there, it was just how they were.

You know, and it wasn't until I started seeing some things happen in the house that made me really, really question, like, wait a second, who else is,

who else is really hurting?

Do you remember the first thing you saw yeah um there was a couple things first off i josh um had an old computer and my dad bought it i was home one day and looking through it and learning about the new mac book back in the day your dad bought his computers

okay uh-huh and on it said josh's files and i was like huh and so i clicked on it thinking like you know you forgot to delete it and thousands of pornographic images were on there.

And so here's this perfect son who smiles on cue and his hair is neatly gelled and all of these things.

And yet he had kind of a big secret, you know, a different, something he was really struggling with, clearly.

It's not a crime, but at the same time, it just shows that like,

something's on.

Maybe they weren't as perfect as maybe the material you found.

It was there, to be clear, it wasn't of any illegal

illegal stuff.

No, not that.

Certainly not the type of content you would expect to find from how they presented.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, they were all about, you know, just Jesus and religion and being happy and walking in his ways.

And yet, this obviously wasn't.

When you found that out, like, what did you do with that information?

Yeah.

So I told my mom and she was just like, okay, we've got to call Jim Bob.

I'm just going to say his name.

I have to call him.

And so we did.

And I was.

I was quickly dismissed.

I was told that, Amy, there's no way that's my son's files.

He would never look at such imagery.

I know.

I know.

He gets very discreet.

Also, his computer.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I'm like, okay.

He said that Josh bought the computer from a pawn shop.

And so that could have been the name of the guy from the pawn shop.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Yes.

Yes.

So from that point forward, you know, there's sometimes a moment where you kind of, it's like, you be.

you kind of wake up, you become aware of things.

Yeah.

Was that, did that, was that a moment where all of a sudden you started looking to see what else is maybe going on because like you know again someone who's very familiar with religion um i've always had a really great i'm not very religious anymore these days but i've always had a very positive experience with religion but i am very familiar with a lot of people who present as religious it's a bit of a show right um and definitely can be yeah and they hold up you know there's some people who will own, hey, I'm a sinner.

I try not to be, but like, like, I'm not going to sit there and pretend that I don't.

And I will continue to ask for forgiveness when I need it, but

I'm a flawed person who will always and every day need grace.

But it seems like your cousins and aunts and uncles

and things like that, they almost presented as very pious.

Oh, yes.

Like they were like on level the highest level that you could possibly possibly be with Jesus.

Just like there was no other,

you couldn't get higher.

You know what I mean?

Just like everything was so perfect.

I can't even describe to you.

Like there's bread baking and the homemade bread and the kids are playing chess and everyone's so kind to each other and there's classical music in the air.

And it's just like, this is wonderful, you know, like, why can't we all live like this?

And then what was your childhood like?

It was hell.

It was absolutely hell.

Yeah.

I grew up with a lot of yelling, a lot of screaming.

My mom and dad were not married.

They had me out of wedlock.

So there I am walking sin already, you know, something that my cousins didn't approve of, my family didn't approve of.

Did you feel their judgment even as a young child?

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, I definitely felt like, I mean, I was told like, Amy, you need a man to help you like tame you down and just felt like I was too much.

I was too loud.

I didn't speak like an IBLP woman speaks.

They are taught.

There's like classes on.

What what is it?

Did you say that?

Yeah.

What kind of Institute of Basic Life Principles is like what they follow.

And it's, um, is it, did they make that up?

No,

no.

Um, Bill Gothard is like the leader of this religious group.

And they're like a type of Christian.

It is like a, yes, like to the extreme.

Yeah.

Like extremely conservative.

But yeah, there's classes on like how to change your voice and how to talk more like princess, meek and mild.

They're taught that women are supposed to just be seen and not really heard um and that they don't really have too much they don't hold any weight

yeah how do you feel about that natalie it's crazy and there's obviously a part

of the book where you write about kind of having this awareness that your own father had abusive tendencies did that come before realizing that your aunt and uncle and cousins rather had their own skeletons in their closet like what where'd you go from

thinking your childhood was hell but maybe normal i think most kids who grow up in a household with this yelling and screaming and disconnect and and you know if you don't know anything different right you know um and even if you maybe like when you saw your when you went to your aunt and uncle's house and there's this harmony it's just more like well you know it's like really nice here and religious but like Maybe my parents just yell, like, but you had an awareness that like this isn't okay.

Yeah, I mean, I would like hide at the trampoline late at night and just like go look at the stars and be like, one day it doesn't have to be like this.

There was just a lot of strife, um, a lot of control, a lot of fear.

And IBLP, which is, you know, what I was telling you about, that group, they

work out of fear.

Like, that's how they get, you know, people to just like bend to their will.

You talk a lot about the abusive tactics that your family used on you.

Shaming, gaslighting, love bombing, all the things.

Which do you feel like hit you the hardest?

And like, how has that shaped how you view love today?

I, since I was younger, I felt like I was very, like, I was talked to in a very condescending tone.

And so I always felt like a little girl, you know, stupid.

Like I had nothing to offer.

And that played a huge role because for a while there, I was like, I am not enough.

I'm too loud.

I'm too boisterous.

I'm, I'm not like them.

And so instead of using it it as like something positive, like, you know, she's going to just be a part of the show and, and kind of add to it, it was, I was also viewed as crazy.

My nickname was crazy cousin Amy.

And it was a nickname that I did not approve of.

And it's not something that I really wanted.

And yet that's what I was called.

Like everyone, like everyone knew me as that.

Yeah.

For over 80 episodes.

Everyone wants a nickname.

Right.

To a certain extent.

And did you feel like, oh, like, I'm crazy?

Ah, like, it's fun.

Or it was a little bit of that or some shame that was that was part of the nickname.

Yeah.

I mean, at first, I was just like, I hate this.

Like, I know it's going to turn into something more.

And I mean, because you can view crazy as anything, right?

But for me, I was like, I don't have a police record.

I've never done drugs.

I've never done like a one-night stand.

Like, why am I crazy?

You know?

And then I was like, okay, well, it's not going to change.

No one's listening to me.

So I might as well embrace it.

And so I started like jumping out of plane.

I started you know feeding a giraffe from my mouth all the things that the producers wanted me to do and i was just like let's just go with it did your parents call you that too no okay no not at all just just my cousins and all them and it was almost like a stipulation like we love amy but she's different than us kind of thing yeah back to uh you know filming the TV show.

I'm obviously very familiar with how reality TV works, how it's made.

Yeah.

You talked a little bit about when people are asked to film a TV show, you realize that, well, it's reality TV, you know, hey, you're making a TV show.

And sometimes like you need to like repeat something because they didn't get it on camera or it didn't get it, it didn't pick up clearly on the audio.

And it's just like, hey, but people have to under, you know, it's like, there's a level of, again, we have to make a TV show.

And that, I think, on,

for anyone listening or watching and who hears that,

like, it makes sense.

Like, it doesn't take away from the authenticity for the most part, knowing that like, hey, we might have to guide a scene along, so to speak.

I think depending on the show, you know, there's a spectrum of like, is this really authentic?

Are we creating scenes?

Is it inauthentic?

Did you see a change in your family's behavior knowing that like they became almost

caricatures of themselves?

Like once they're in a TV show, which I think is very common for people who do these episodic kind of documentary type of shows where you're being followed and you kind of succumb to the pressure of the audience and what people are saying about you.

And you either want to lean in or lean away from certain opinions that people are saying.

Like, how did you witness your aunt and uncle and your cousin's behavior as a result of them being a part of the show?

I think that there was like a huge shift.

And I realized that they didn't trust people all of a sudden.

Like the house was, I mean, anyone was a welcome.

I mean, they would invite anyone over 100 plus people all the time.

It was like a busy hotel, literally.

But at the same time, they didn't trust people with like actual like information.

Like they wouldn't tell like where they were going or like what kind of trip they were going on or whatever.

And so, yeah, you just started noticing that there was more of, there were more characters on the show than just like regular people with a big family.

I mean, they definitely had different personalities and that kind of thing.

And I think they played into it for sure.

You talk about the financial control that your dad kind of.

did can you tell our audience a little bit more about that my uncle my uncle

yeah yeah yeah so he told all of us that 19 kids accounting was a ministry and that we were on the show you know just to shine a light in the darkness and to be a part of of this ministry and that god has called us to this was there any compensation

nada zero no one like so as far as all the kids and you were aware You were doing this for the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I mean, I go into it in my book and there's a contract and there's a bunch of stuff that I talk about.

But yeah, I signed a contract blindly.

Oh, wow.

Uh-huh.

Do you know how much?

Do you have any idea how much money?

I actually looked it up.

I think it was like over six million.

Wow.

Yeah.

Ministry, right?

Ministry.

Ministry.

And what I've noticed also is that he loves real estate.

So he's bought all kinds of houses.

He's an investor and he's very smart.

He really is.

He's a businessman and he knows how to how to do it.

But

ministry.

Was your aunt aware of any of that at all?

Or was she also kept out of it?

So the IVLP teaches that the men are the umbrella.

So they have full control over the entire household.

And then the women are really just silenced, which is, which is terrible, but they're silenced.

And so they have to go with what their husband says because they're submittive.

So were they like asking for, say, they're going to the grocery store?

Is it like, hey, I need money to go to the grocery store?

And then it's no, I mean, I think they have money like to do that.

There was definitely like a debit card and, you know, that kind of thing.

But he, I believe, in my opinion,

he kept track of that and he made sure that it all fell in line to what he expected of the family.

And if there was ever where they went somewhere else, let's say Hooters, for example, or somewhere like that, then I personally believe that he would dock that and then something would come about it.

He kept close taps for sure.

Do you have any memory of your uncle doing

anything the opposite of what he preached?

Yes.

He preached all the time about how like lying, the lying tongue is not of God and that you can't,

you can't trust someone that lies.

You shouldn't be around that.

And honestly, like, um, lying, and I put it in my book, that lying is like a snowball and it just gathers momentum every lie you take until until it's rolling down the hill and there's no way to stop it.

I literally listened to my book, several lies that was told to me by him.

Like what?

Oh, all kinds of allegedly.

Allegedly.

No, yeah.

So when Josh had his last horrible scandal and went to prison,

you know, we asked, like, hey, is there any truth to this?

Tell me this isn't true.

And he responded with, oh, no, not at all.

Homeland Security is just friends of Josh.

And so they stopped stop by to say hi.

Friends.

Friends.

Friends with someone else.

Can you remind my audience, like what,

what did he go to jail for?

Oh, Lord.

He was found guilty of having sexual abuse material of children.

Oh, right.

Terrible, terrible stuff.

Low of the low.

And I was told that there was no problem back in the day with the computer.

you know right it all goes full circle right it's a big full circle in this whole whole book And they told him that they never accepted the fact that he did that.

I don't believe so.

I think they're still defending him till this day.

Wow.

Yeah.

And like just through denying, like denial?

Yeah.

I mean, they're just like, my son would never do that.

They got it wrong.

And they got it wrong.

It's beyond.

Wow.

Yeah.

It's like so hard to comprehend.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

There was like eight different lies, I believe, that are in the book of all the things that he told me.

Looking back, like, what were some of the signs that in the moment you didn't really notice or just kind of maybe overlooked?

That now, looking back, you realize that this was a family that were not who they pretended to be or how they presented themselves?

It still like kills me to this day.

But

there was a birthday party.

There was a huge celebration in their home.

And it was like a 7,800 square foot home, okay, large.

And the living room was full of people.

And I went to the pantry to

get some napkins.

And I, you know, opened the door and I heard something be like,

like holding it in.

And I turned on the light and bless it.

One of my cousins was like holding her mouth like where she couldn't cry out loud and having like a severe panic attack.

And you could just tell something was going on, something was.

And so I reached down, I held her, forgot the napkins, whatever, and just held her and just let her know, like, I see you.

You know, you were worthy to be seen.

Like, I'm here.

How can I help you?

And, um, and I just held her.

I just held her for probably 30 minutes.

And no one knew she was hurting.

No one knew she was crying.

And I was like, what do I do with this information?

Like, oh my gosh, you know, and so I tried, I tried my hardest to contact my uncle, talk to him, talk to my aunt, talk to anyone that would listen, you know, because I was like, obviously, you know, they, they're always happy all the time, but they were, I think some of them allegedly were very much hurting and, and in a lot of pain and going through trauma that I had no idea about.

But when I, you know, asked them, like, you know, trying to tell them what was going on, they were just like, oh, Amy, it's fine.

She just had a bad day.

There's nothing going on, nothing going on.

And so I hate to say this, but I kind of believed them, you know, because it was just so convincing.

They're like, oh, she was on her period.

Yes.

Like, oh,

yeah, exactly.

Like something like that.

So I was like, okay, or like, maybe they're sad that like someone's getting married and moving out of the house or, you know, because they couldn't leave the house until they got married.

That's a rule let me ask you this do you like because you know for example with josh

they have you said defended him to this day yeah

what does your gut or your heart tell you do you think deep down they know they're wrong for doing some of the things they've done or do you believe that they are walking a a a noble life or whatever you want to call it a righteous life versus you know what i'm saying like yeah no i think the pastor who like cheats on his wife right and steals money from the, you know, it's like, he knows he's a piece of shit.

You know what I'm saying?

He's just using religion as a cover and using, you know, Bible scriptures as a way to like control his victims.

And then there are people who are just like just delusional.

I don't know.

Which one do you think it's more of from your point of view when you're looking at specifically your uncle?

Yeah.

So in my opinion, I'll just put that out there.

I definitely think that he knows that he's done wrong.

And I do think that like, how can you not, how could you sleep at night knowing all the lies you've told, all the things?

I mean, he's lied on like national television to everyone.

And it's just like, come on, dude.

Like, give it up.

Like, the gig is up, you know?

But he's also the type, I believe, that, uh, that wants to live in this like perfect world.

And so I think he creates that.

Does that make sense?

Like, he's just.

Do you think he was always like that?

Complicated.

Like, do you think he started the show with good intentions?

I really do.

I really do believe that.

I do.

I think he was like, hey, this this is a ministry.

We're going to show like the good, the good of people and all of that.

But in my book, I also explain that I do believe that Josh went for help.

He tried to talk to his parents for help, but it was when the show was going.

And,

you know, why mess up a good thing if we can kind of put it under the rug and sweep it under and no one has to know?

Yeah.

You feel like maybe like the money and the fame kind of got to him where he started getting a little bit more and more corrupt.

I think, I think, because money does that to almost anyone if you don't keep it in check, right?

And so, if you just, you know, all the perks that were coming in and the invites and the tickets and the this and the first class tickets and you know, all the things that you're invited to, reality TV isn't real, but I think it can really warp your mind.

I really think it can.

So, I think the money, money became like his fascination.

And then it just, it just kept on growing and growing and growing.

Did you ever confide in your parents about

what was going on at your aunt and uncle's house?

And like, what was their response?

I mean, yeah, but my mom was under the impression that like, oh, like they're such great people.

Like, don't worry about it.

Don't, you know, whatever.

So I actually ignored my like basic instincts in my heart and what was like that gut feeling that like something was off.

I ignored it for as long as I could because I still wanted to be part of the family.

I still loved them.

And I knew if I asked questions, then, you know, I'm considered like an outsider already, you know, because I'm not a part of the IBLP.

And so in order to like really get to know them more, you would have to be a part of what they believe.

But I already wasn't.

So I was already kind of like on that line.

And so I was just like, oh my gosh, like, I don't want to lose my family, you know?

Do you think the IBLP is more of a cult than a religion?

100%.

It's completely man-made, in my opinion, just man-made up rules.

And they don't make sense because every man in the family, right?

Let's say they've got 11 kids and the man, the father, can decipher what happens in that, in that household.

And every household is different because the man is the leader and like thumb control.

Do you know how Jim Bob got it connected with this specific

cult?

I don't.

I know that IBLP started going to like different churches around the area and it was like conferences.

And I'm sure it looked really good good because the way that my uncle and my mom grew up was a lot of yelling a lot of fighting a lot of you know a lot of turmoil and so i think he was probably in my opinion looking for structure looking for some way to like raise his family in the right way and so i think it looked golden and looked happy and it looked inviting and it's something that he was like oh like this is going to be a really great thing for my family and then It's just really crazy how it turns into it because the men are not held accountable.

So anything is possible and anything can happen.

Yeah.

You talk about

you, I mean, and you said right here that your childhood was hell.

Did you feel loved and cared for as a child?

I, there were times that I did.

Um, but then again, my mom and my dad, they didn't get married till like I was senior of high school.

So they had a really like a roller coaster relationship, um, ups and downs, all arounds, the whole thing.

And so when things were going great, things were great.

but when things weren't, then it was just kind of like I wasn't necessarily, I was kind of like an afterthought.

And is this your parents got divorced the same year you got married?

Is that correct?

Yeah, yeah.

How is that for you mentally?

I mean, honestly, I, I, I was excited for them, honestly, to divorce.

It was to the point that my mom's life was probably going to be in danger, in my opinion,

allegedly.

It was getting really bad and just scary.

And so my mom now lives with us

and so do you have any relationship with your father i do not i haven't talked to him in a really long time

what made you feel scared for her things that he would say he would pace the floor he would say like i don't know what i'm gonna do with you um he had all kinds of threats that he would say just randomly out of nowhere we'd be just sitting at the movies or like sitting in the living room and he would just get up and just start like getting angry and you're like oh my gosh what are you gonna do like it was just you just never knew you never knew.

Did he ever hit you, your mom?

He didn't.

Thank goodness.

But I mean, emotional abuse is

a big deal.

And I felt like he punched me several times, even when he didn't.

I think there's a lot of people out there who experience emotional abuse.

And you write about this in your book, but, you know, at times it kind of feels like family corks or like maybe this is just our way of doing things.

For the people listening who might be experiencing a type of emotional abuse, how did your like internal dialogue go from allowing you to realize that these weren't just family quirks, but they were actually signs of emotional abuse?

It's a good question.

I think that movie, The Truman Show, you know, when he's floating, everything's great, happy-go-lucky, and then he hits a wall.

I hit that same wall.

And I just was like, there is a life that I've always wanted that I'm not going to get with having these kind of people in my life and surrounding me in my inner circle.

And so I just started noticing, I started taking in like just their behavior, the way they talk, the way that what they say, how they belittle, you know, all the things that they do that are like little, like.

little punches, little jabs for no reason at all.

And why am I judged?

Why am I, you know, being unfairly labeled, all the things.

And I was like, I don't need this in my life.

I would start feeling really like chaotic, like inside, jittery, you know, just mad for no reason.

And you can just tell, like, there's, you can do things differently.

And so I just was like, I'm done.

I'm just so done.

And I did.

I just, I, I literally drove in my car one day.

I wasn't getting any answers about Josh and like all the things that's gone on.

And I was like, I need answers.

And why is truth so hard to find in this freaking family?

And I, um, I drove to their house.

And I was like on a mission, let me tell you.

And I confronted him.

It's in the book.

Josh.

yeah can you can you tease a little bit about what that conversation was like i can tease um i asked him point blank and not to go you know too much information but i asked him point blank why he didn't touch me why i was not why i was not a target um what made you want to ask that because he had uh touched his sisters and that was like his first huge terrible scandal And so, yeah, it was after that that I was like, I'm going to find some answers and I'm, I'll be damned if i don't get them did you leave with answers i did i did and i left feeling like a superhero just felt like i did everything i could you know i'm not this crazy wild crazy cousin amy that everybody knows but like i have a moral compass and i'm i'm not the person that i've been portrayed all these years you almost sound like you have a little bit of grace for josh I kind of do in a way, a very small amount.

And let me just tell you why.

I feel like he did try to get help.

I feel like he did say, Hey, I have a problem, someone help me, and no one came to his rescue.

Obviously, we're not doctors, neither of us are there's no therapist in this room.

But do you have,

or maybe you're aware through

you know,

people who have spoken out or about your family, um,

but usually, when it comes to this type of abuse,

often abusers were once victims of abuse.

Do you have any insight to or ideas of why you think your cousin Josh became the abuser that he is?

I think it just kept, it was unchecked.

No one, you know, got him the help.

They don't believe.

IVLP doesn't believe

it came from.

You know what I'm saying?

Like I've never had,

you know, like some of his actions.

are very disgusting and very just hard to really even comprehend.

I don't know where it began.

I don't know who maybe allegedly abused anyone.

Do you have any suspicions that it happened or that there was that type of abuse in that family?

Yeah, I think there has to be someone somewhere that did something to where it began, but I have no idea who.

And they went to like family camps and conferences and there was people all around.

Like I said, there were always people in the house.

And

I don't know who it was.

I have no idea.

I mean, like, listen, like

kids finding porn is not that uncommon of a thing.

True.

You know, porn wasn't as prevalent as it is now.

But when I was a kid, you know, I had some friends who dads had like a Playboy hidden in their drawer and their kids found out about it.

And we would snick away and go see it and things like that.

And so for you to find your cousin Josh's laptop and find a folder, and at the time, you discovered this pornographic material, none of which was the type of content that he later seemed to get into that is obviously disgusting and illegal.

But for you to like go to his parents, like for them to be in denial about that, something that, again,

most parents are faced with their kid coming across some pornographic material

and maybe even consuming it to a level that looks like, hey, like, this is too much, you know?

Like,

it obviously shows that these, these were kind of parents that lived in denial.

So, yeah, it's like, it's in, man, I, again, i know what it's like to be in a large family my parents were always had a good pulse on what all their kids were doing that's so good but yeah i don't like i'm i am trying to comprehend what 19 would be like

yeah i mean yeah no it's crazy they had um special quality time with their parents on their birthdays um like one-on-one um but i mean as far as i am as far as i as i saw they kind of on their own in a way i mean yeah they they wandered they i mean they had like lots of land so i mean they they played chess, they played ball.

They, you know, went with their dad took their car a lot.

Did the older ones also kind of parent the younger ones?

Yeah, they had a buddy system.

They had a buddy system.

So they had two or three younger ones that the older ones watched.

Are any of your cousins close with your aunt and uncle still to this day?

Yeah.

So they all spend quality time, holidays, everything.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

They're all.

What is your opinion of them today?

Oh, gosh.

My opinion of them is that I find it to be a very unhealthy family toxic pattern that's just going to continue and continue and continue.

Is it hard for you to be close with Jill?

Like, is there any of that kind of like, what are you doing?

How can you not see this?

Or is it kind of like, you know what, you're an adult.

I'm an adult.

You do your thing.

I'm here.

I love you.

So Jill has done a lot of counseling.

And I'm not going to really speak for her, but I will tell you, she's done a lot of counseling.

So she's healed from a lot.

And I will tell you that she's, she's a strong girl.

So she loves her brothers and sisters.

She loves her mom.

You know, I think it's kind of difficult at times to be over there, but she limits her time.

But yeah, I mean, there's no animosity or anything like that between Jill and I at all.

It's just more of like, hey, that's your decision.

But I realize that's like your immediate family.

It's not really mine.

So I don't have to invite that back into my life.

Right.

On that show, I'm always reminding my audience that the word gaslighting is often watered down or misused.

You know, someone who's being a little manipulative doesn't necessarily mean they're gaslighting, or a couple that's fighting

doesn't mean someone's gaslighting the other person.

But in your case, it really seems like real gaslighting was happening.

Is there any time where your anxiety was at a point where you truly questioned your own reality?

And can you describe what that situation was like?

Yeah, I can tell you I tried over and over and over to have a relationship with my dad.

Um, and I threw a big like hail Mary and I invited him to counseling.

And we were in the counseling studio area for like five hours, like a long time.

And in that time, you know, I told him everything, how I felt, how he made me feel.

I apologized, he apologized, everything was great.

And it was like one of the heartbreaking things that's in my book.

But the next morning, I remember calling him and being like, thank you so much for going with me to counseling and working through things.

And he went ballistic, you guys, and was like, what are you talking about?

I never was there.

And I was like,

like, and in my mind, I was like, he, he literally made me feel like I was crazy and that like I dreamt, like dreamt it up.

And so I was like, wait a second.

And he was like, if I, if I was there and I went to counseling with you, where are the notes, Amy?

Where are the notes?

Where are my notes?

Like, I never went.

You're psycho.

You've lost your mind.

Like all these things.

And I was like, I don't have any notes.

you know, like you really, really had to, it sounds crazy how someone can do that, but they really did have like, they can have a power over you.

And it's, yeah, it's wild.

I have to say, I had some trauma happen to me as a child.

And I feel like having my own daughter has been very healing for me.

Yes.

Has that kind of been healing for you as well?

And being able to parent in a way that you want to parent and you wish you were parented.

Yes.

No, parenting is like my favorite thing on the planet.

I have a five-year-old.

Like I was telling you earlier, Natalie, he has a mullet.

He does his own thing.

He's like an old soul and like loves like old classic rock.

And like, I just, I love molding him and teaching him and teaching him about, you know, just self-control and the goodness of like people and how to be genuine and kind and honest.

Yeah.

The things that are going to make him just a great man someday.

What is the relationship like between your mom and him, your son?

So, yeah, our Nana lives with us.

And so, they are best friends.

They're at Chuck E.

Cheese right now, just living it up.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

They have the best time.

They really do.

And it really is like full circle because it has like a healing journey.

And my mom's journey is, is she's safe and she's fine.

And she's so much healthier now than she ever has been.

And so to see that is just, it's everything my heart could ever want.

It's really beautiful.

Yeah.

Have any of your cousins to this day received any financial compensation for being on the show?

Not that I know of.

Crazy.

And do you know how any of them feel about that?

Nope.

So IVLP teaches that you are happy, smiling all the time, and that other emotions are not of God.

So you cannot ask questions.

You can't,

you know, be annoyed, worry, anxious, nothing.

Have none of the 19 kids like broken away from?

So Ginger is in LA

and living her life.

And I think

she's gotten away from it probably a little bit.

Jill has, but there's only there's only two daughters that really have.

Wow.

And the rest are

if you ask me, probably still real thick in it.

Wow.

Yeah.

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How did you meet your husband?

Oh my gosh, at a bar.

Sit.

Love at first sight.

No, actually, he was a complete like jerk.

Like, I'm not kidding.

He, I, it was when like ruffles were really in style way back in the day and I had like a like okay I had peacock earrings on like the feather earrings you know and like a ruffle shirt and he was like oh my gosh like he was a friend of a friend so I didn't know him but I kind of knew he was around and he was just like what the hell are you wearing is how he started the conversation how did you say were you like um

i was just like okay like here's a guy that's like totally honest i was like do i look bad and he was like i mean kind of like i can't tell what the heck's going on and i was like okay that's kind of refreshing like you know so we just became friends for like six years and best friends um oh gosh like 24.

so you were filming the show no not 24 22 22 were you on the show

um i was yes yeah and he he had no idea who i was he had no clue he was like i don't know how did you bring it up oh my gosh okay this is funny um i well i mean i told him i was just like yeah he's like, what do you do?

And I'm like, well, it's a long story.

I was like, you know, on this TV show.

And he's like, what?

That's crazy.

And so I actually invited him to my cousin's house.

And I didn't give him any like rules.

Like, he's a very no-filter kind of guy.

Like, you guys would love him.

You guys would get along so well.

But he

walks in and he's talking to the, to the boys about cars and engines and stuff.

And like I said, I didn't give him any rules.

And so

the color black is like very wrong in their eyes.

Like it's like a very like a devilish color.

It's right.

Yeah.

Like I'm a walking sin right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a problem.

Is this like you being rebellious?

I mean, she's wearing all of that.

Inwardly.

I didn't even realize I did that.

But yes, I will take it.

But you know what?

Really?

What about a funeral?

Yeah.

No, I mean, I think at funeral, it's navy blue is what they wear.

But they don't.

Yeah, just a little bit of something.

But yeah, it's not really.

Did he wear black?

No.

But so, like, one of of the little girls, and they all start with J's, but one of the little girls was like, Dylan, like so innocent and so sweet, was like, what's your favorite color?

And he was like, black.

And they were like,

and they just like stopped in their tracks and they were like.

And they already think like I'm wild and crazy and all these things.

And now Dylan likes the color black.

And I remember kicking him underneath the seat, like under the table, like shut up.

And he was just like, what?

The color black is sexy.

The color black is sexy like I was like I literally cannot like handle it and so from that on like they just were like Dylan is over there like

did they welcome him back to their house with open arms well

I mean I think maybe a couple times but it was different like they wouldn't allow us to really have more than like surface level conversations um and and then and then after we actually got married then it was the scandals that came out So it's like they barely knew him

because then we just completely separated ourselves completely from it.

Is your maiden name Duggar?

And is that because you have no relationship with your father?

Because it's your mom who's

sisters with Jimbo.

Right.

Yeah.

That's my maiden name.

It's just Duggar.

I just had my mom's maiden name.

And so

because they weren't married.

Because they weren't married.

So you took your mom.

Yeah.

People think that like I changed my name for fame or that I like want to ride that like coattail.

And I'm just like, oh my gosh.

Well, it's funny because the reason I wanted to bring it up is almost the opposite.

Again,

my family's overall for all for having 13 people.

We're a close family.

I mean, I'm closer with some siblings than others.

As a whole, we're generally pretty close.

We're all very different in a lot of ways.

I have siblings who are on the complete.

polar opposites of the political spectrum.

It's always funny when people in the public eye, well, it's like, well, their sister or brother said this, and as if like they must be one and the same.

Right.

You know, and just because you're in the same family, you can be very different people.

Yeah.

You know, as close as my family is, I go months, you know, not talking to some of my siblings.

I don't know what they're doing.

I don't know what they're getting into.

Right.

You know, I don't know if someone's like being radicalized by whatever the shit's going on on the internet.

Like, what if one of my siblings did some crazy, horrible shit?

I don't think they would.

I mean, just for anyone listening, you know what I'm saying?

But you just, you never know.

And so my question to you is like having the Duggar name, knowing that it is now in many people's eyes attached to some very terrible things.

One being your cousin Josh.

Yes.

Have you ever thought of just like not wanting that attached to your name?

Or do you feel like people treat you in a way where it's like if they find out you're a Duggar, where it's just like you almost feel the judgment that they would pass on to that family?

No, I, okay, good question.

I think because my name is Duggar, I'm not changing it.

I mean, that's just who I am.

But at the same time, I have been very outspoken from the very beginning, from the moment that scandal started happening and things like that.

And so the whole book is about how disruption in a family pattern, any kind of healthy or any unhealthy relationships, you have to like change that.

Right.

And so, I mean, that's my goal and prayer is that the people that read this book can just like, you put it in their own lives.

Like, you know, just embrace the fact that like your family might be crazy or what you're around is pretty terrible, but you can put things in order and put your life back on the peace track, you know?

Yeah.

You're still a religious, you consider yourself a religious person.

I'm curious is how were you able to maintain

a relationship with God and have a strong religious foundation?

Because a lot lot of people in your position, people who experience a religious trauma of some kind, often have a very negative opinion about religion and a very negative connotation with it.

But that's not something that's happened to you.

And yet you speak in your book about how your faith has allowed you, you know, on this healing journey and you've really leaned on that

despite some of the religious trauma that you've witnessed and experienced.

Yeah.

So I believe that like in the Bible, literally, it says God is is not the author of confusion.

And when I think about all the craziness that's gone on in this world and then the things that's gone on in like my family, the things that I've had to heal from and learn from and all of that, there's confusion everywhere I look, right?

There's just all of that.

So you have to disrupt it.

You do.

And so I just have this whole like filter now in my life where if like whoever I'm around, whatever I watch, whatever music I listen to, whatever, does it bring me peace?

And that's just my question.

And even if you're not religious, like you know like you whatever you can still ask like okay i still you probably still want a peaceful life right like you still want like

you don't want chaos you know and so for me i just i just take that in and that's just what i think of every like every second of the day it's just like does it bring me peace and like what kind of direction can i take from here to be a better person You've talked about how your relationship with your husband is something that you've leaned on

to get through all this.

How have you and your husband formed a positive relationship and healthy relationship, given your background and your upbringing?

I don't think it has anything to do with it.

You know, the way we respect each other, the way we have mutual like care.

And I like genuinely love him with every being of my body.

We've been married for 10 years and he drives me crazy.

And he's, he's a mess sometimes.

And he drives me out, like out of my mind.

But he's like my best friend.

You know, he's the rock.

He's the one I can like cry to and just be myself with 100%.

And so

I don't think it mattered what my last name would be.

I think we would probably still find love with each other and

be happy.

You talk a lot about gentle parenting.

Well, tell me about it because, you know, I'm not all that familiar with it.

And you talk about it as a way kind of almost to rebel against your childhood because you came from a very kind of authoritative

upbringing.

I have my doubts about gentle parenting.

Because for me, I, you know, again, like, you know, I,

again, grew up in a very religious household.

I'm not religious today.

I respect my upbringing and I'm very grateful of the upbringing I had.

And I do very much think it's important, you know, to honor my parents, respect my parents.

And I had a great level of respect for adults and authority.

And I think that has really allowed me to honestly like have the success I've had and things like that.

And when it comes, when I hear about gentle parenting, I feel like it includes a lack of like respect for authority and adults.

And well, what would you do in Little River?

Like, what, how, how do you discipline?

Well, she's only a year and a half.

So she's, you know, but we also, you know, it's like funny enough that, like, you know, before we had River, Nat, we would always joke about who's going to be the, you know, the tough cock and who's going to be the nice one.

Yeah.

And now you'd always say that I would, you know, I would be a softy, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to be

the one.

The one.

Her and River have such a bond and there's such a connection there.

Yeah.

And I just really don't want to have spoiled children.

No.

And I really, and I really want my kids to have a level of respect for authority and adults.

And I do think a big part of childhood is.

working through adversity and being challenged and going through hard times, you know, and I think as parents, especially privileged parents, like we're very lucky and very privileged.

Sometimes my parents, like some of the things I had to go through as a child is because my parents are like, we can't afford that shit, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

They had, you know,

oh, kids now are like, yeah, they if we wanted to, we're lucky enough to, we could give our daughter anything.

I hear you.

So we have to choose to say no, you know, and things like that.

So back to gentle parenting.

Well, for the skeptics, skeptics out there,

how have you incorporated it in a way that you feel is positive?

Oh my goodness.

Okay.

There's lots of things.

So

we don't live in spanking.

Spanking is something that I will not tolerate.

I told Dylan, I was like, I love you.

If you cheat,

I'm out.

And if you spank, I'm out.

Like, I can't do it because it's still hitting.

You're still hitting a child.

I just, I think that's crazy.

Um, and so sad.

But yeah, I just feel like I just get down their level, you know, like when Dax,

you know, does anything wrong, wrong?

I'm just like, hey, buddy, like, listen, like, I've never been a mom before.

You, I've never like had a five-girl before.

Let's like work together as a team and like, let's figure this out.

So, if you need a break, like a, you know, just have a seat, whatever, relax.

And so, I just, I feel like talking really like, he's like, oh, I understand.

Like, I don't have to yell.

I don't have to like pretend that I'm this princess or that I've got everything figured out because he's only five.

So, ask me this when he's 12 and when he's 20.

And then, do you feel like

I think there's a, there's a, and again, a lot of times people, we criticize things we don't fully understand.

So I'll recognize that like I haven't spent a lot of time studying gentle parenting tactics.

I think there's a perception out there that parents who gentle parent negotiate with their children rather than at times be like, my dad's favorite line was, because I said so.

Oh, and cringe.

Well, I honestly think.

Is that you think so?

I think, yeah, there's a, yeah, I really do.

I think children need to know that their parents are in charge.

Right.

And there is a level of respect and authority they have to have.

And I think if you don't respect your parents, how can you possibly, in the real world, respect your boss or your elders or think people who don't care, like, who don't love you like we love our children.

Right.

You know, who at the end of the day aren't have it, don't have a difficult, you know we'll have a difficult time you know punishing our our children because we love them and we don't want to see them sad or cry but you know deep down we know what's good for them right the world's not going to give a shit you know and i yeah i do think that is important to a certain degree where i don't oh life doesn't always have to explain to you like why the world is the way it is I think because my cousins are like, they, in my opinion, they blindly follow.

They do.

And it led them to abuse it led them in a wrong way for me i don't want my son just to obey because i say so i want him to ask questions i i literally tell him like hey buddy if i ask you to do something and you don't understand it ask me why i am fine with explaining it is so crazy how and i see it with river and she's only 19 months old but like we'll be walking and you know in the parking lot into a store and she wants to get down and it's like

and i'll be like no no no no and she's and then I'm like, wait, look at all the cars.

Look how many cars there are.

It's dangerous.

You can't get down.

And then she's like, oh, okay.

It's like, once you explain why they can't do something, why you're saying no, then they understand.

Like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

It's not just because I, you don't want me to.

Yes, no, exactly.

I also explained to Dax also, I'm like, hey, buddy, I'm never, mom and dad and Nana, people that are in your circle, the people that love you the most will never ask you to do something that's going to hurt you or put you in like harm's way ever.

Yeah.

And so he's like, okay so i'm like i but i tell him i'm like if you want to know why like you have to go clean your room i'll tell you why like you can ask and i'm like very open and upfront with him because when i was little i couldn't ask why and i would just do things and being yelled at or you know being like you know annoying and be like oh just because i said so and i'd be like okay so i still respect i want him to respect for sure i want him to like know authority and all of that but he can ask why but what happens after they ask why you explain why

and then let's say like six months go by you tell them what to do you've already explained why right and then they go well why do i have to do that do you explain it again i do i know that sounds crazy probably but like yes i think you can do it in like a strict way of just be like i've already told you you have and i always tell them you have a choice you don't have to obey and there's consequences i take away a toy you don't get to have a play date like there's always something that can come up or you can choose the right way and you can obey and make this really easy

And so, yeah, there's like two different ways to do it.

I mean, yeah, I've seen a lot of like strictness, harshness growing up.

And so, I just didn't want that to continue in the generation to come for him.

And that makes a lot of sense.

And I think there's, I think, for me, everything, there's a balance to everything, right?

And totally get a lot of what you're saying.

I guess just to play devil's advocate with you, because you've kind of acknowledged part of this comes from a level of rebellion.

So, how do you, when you're parenting your own child, or for all the all the parents out there who are listening to you and really connect with what you're saying?

Because maybe they're parenting, you know, often, right?

Like your parents are an alcoholic.

Sometimes you become alcoholic or sometimes you never touch a drink.

You know, it's like usually one or the other, right?

You either end up becoming who your parents are if it's extreme or you very much are against it in a way.

you know, type of thing.

So how do you challenge yourself, acknowledging that you've had your own trauma, that you are parenting not just because you're projecting what's happened to you, knowing that maybe, you know,

your child's lucky enough to not have experienced what you experience and they have that love that you're giving them.

So how do you make sure that it's not a projection of your own trauma rather than just like what's right for them?

You ask hard questions.

He's so good at what he does.

He's so good.

This is why people watch and follow you.

That's a good question.

I, I, okay, before I took time before I was pregnant to really educate myself and to really make sure that, like, what I, like, why I wanted to be a parent is for the right reasons.

Right.

And so I've done the healing.

I know the trauma that can happen, you know, and like the ways around it and the way to protect my child.

And now I just am like the mama bear that's going to do it at all costs.

And I think it starts at home.

I think it really does.

Just how we treat them, how they're respected, you know, how they take care of things will continue in this world as they get older.

So I don't know.

That's just kind of where I'm at.

What's your mom's opinion of her brother?

So there's a lot in my book about why their relationship is sprayed and why she doesn't necessarily trust him anymore.

Can you elaborate a little bit more?

Just like what's her general opinion?

Does she think he's a good guy?

In my opinion, I would think that my mom would probably say no.

She's been very hurt by him.

In your opinion, do you think if I said your uncle sounds like a monster uh in my opinion i would think that uh you probably are not far off from that if i said

do you think your aunt is equally to blame

for what's happened with her family or do you give her grace given the extreme ways in which women are expected to operate in this alleged cult.

I would give my aunt some grace because I do feel like she doesn't have a voice.

I really, truly believe that.

And are they still a part of this?

They won't probably say it out loud, but more than likely, yes.

When you hang out with Jill, what does Jill think of you writing this book, first of all?

She's 100% supportive of it.

She's excited for it.

And when you get together with her at this point, is it just like, let's not talk about that and let's focus on our kids and what's in front of us?

Or do you still push back at times when it comes to her connection with her family?

I don't push back because I know that like, you know, having your brothers and sisters is important.

I didn't have any.

So I'm sure it's important.

You know, it's that connection that they still want to have.

I think she's very careful on how she has those relationships.

But no, we have a good time.

Like we, she has three boys.

You know, I have, I have an only child.

I love one, by the way.

Oh my word.

It's the best.

and so when they all get together, I think we just focus on like quality time now.

Because back then, we had we had relationship, we had a uh quality time, but it was surface level only.

How is the weather?

You know, I like your jean skirt, you know, all that kind of stuff.

And so, it wasn't really, we couldn't ask deep, hard topics.

We have before, we've gotten very deep.

She's told me things that I will not repeat.

Um, and and yeah, we just have that trust and bond.

Do you feel like that family has secrets that have not been revealed?

Oh, that are either illegal or people like that that need to get out for this for the sake of others.

I believe that it is a breeding ground for all kinds of crimes.

I think that they're not just in my family's house, nothing like that, but just IBLP as a whole.

I just don't think it's, it's healthy in any kind of way.

And so, yeah, I believe that in hopefully five, 10, 20 years, someone else will come forward being a holo disruptor and sharing their story.

Has Jim Bob ever been investigated by any authorities?

Not that I know of.

Do you feel like he should be?

I do, in my opinion, believe that there could be some things that he could definitely be probably looked at for.

Wow.

I'm assuming you wouldn't feel comfortable with any of your cousins other than

Jill babysitting your child.

No, I don't think that would ever happen.

I know Jill.

um yes, Jill has.

Okay.

Jill and her family are wonderful.

So yeah, they've watched acts and they get along great.

And I trust her 100%.

As far as anyone else watching my child, that is a big no.

How do you feel like, how many of your cousins are married?

Oh, gosh.

Like half of them at least.

And did they all meet their spouses through?

This church or like how did how are they able to integrate this very extreme religion into these people's lives?

Yeah.

So they believe

that like the dads are kind of like the secret agents.

They go out and like find the women or the daughters and the dads get together and then are like, oh, I've got a daughter.

I've got a son or I've got a son.

I've got whatever.

And it's kind of like arranged marriages.

And then they kiss.

Many of your cousins are married to people they've been arranged with.

I mean, to an extent, it's like he like sets them up.

And then whatever happens, happens, but it's courtship.

So you can't kiss until you're married.

Can you imagine that?

No, no, I can't imagine about her setting up with anyone.

Right?

No, exactly.

Yeah.

No, I don't have to be like, I don't think so.

He asked, my uncle asked if he could, um, if he could set up for me when I was like 19.

And I was like, no.

And I told him, I was like, I don't want a vanilla cupcake.

Like, I need someone who's lived some life that can like push back and like tell me no.

And I found it in the one that, you know, made fun of me.

Because like you're, Jim Deb doesn't, he allegedly doesn't believe in in TV, correct?

Yeah, so TV, the TV world is sinful and evil.

And movies and movies and oh, yeah, nothing.

Music in general, and if there's an offbeat, any kind of offbeat is considered like demonic.

And how many of your cousins do you feel like watch TV, movies, and listen to music?

Probably like all of them.

No,

no,

no, they are very obedient, like very obedient.

I really think that's really, you really think they all are and not pretending to be?

No, I I really don't think some of them, all of them at least have like one vice.

I mean, I don't, I don't think them like secretly watching The Bachelor.

Like, I don't, I don't think they're doing that because they don't have, they don't have TV.

They don't have anything like that.

Now, I'm not saying the ones that moved out, they might.

Who knows?

But I remember when they came to my house one time and

they were watching their own show at my house.

And we had...

They watched their own show.

They watched their own show.

They were allowed to watch their own show.

And everyone was in the living room, you know, everyone on the ground, everyone just hanging out and one big family.

And everyone was talking so much that we forgot that there was a commercial that was shown and it was a body wash commercial.

Oh, boy.

Oh, my gosh.

You would have thought like something terrible has happened.

The little girls are crying.

We had to put a sheet over the TV during commercials.

How do they go out in the real world?

Okay.

Good question.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's right.

When you think about it, like for a mall, they refused to go to malls.

They would go to the the beach at night to like to not see nakedness, which is bathing suits and, you know, all the things.

They also had a secret word called Nike, like the shoes.

And anytime, no, listen, anytime that there was anything that was.

ungodly, disruptive, anything that was really bad for their eyes.

My the oldest daughters were

Nike and it was like an army.

They would go

like straight down and they were not allowed to look up until given the clear.

That's no lie and that happened everywhere airports

probably

probably so you need to look up nike telling you the nike word yeah it happened everywhere everywhere it didn't matter what it was did any of them ever come to you curious about a life outside of

yes i taught the girls like

yes yeah yeah they would say they would see like little like I don't know, like little glimpses like at Walmart with like the TV shows, like movies are playing, you know, like on the TVs.

And they'd be like, Amy, what show is that?

What is that?

And then I would teach the girls like secret cheerleading on the trampolines, trying to, just trying to like introduce them to like the real world outside of what they've known.

I was the one that bought them their first hair straightener because they weren't allowed to like cut their hair or anything.

And I was like, okay.

And so he finally, my uncle finally allowed that.

It's just, it was just crazy, you know, I was a normal girl and yet they couldn't do half the things that I did.

Wild.

I know.

So wild.

It is wild.

What about food?

Were there any like weird rules around food?

No, they had, they could have anything and they ate like junk food and like not

the greatest quality of food for sure.

They couldn't go to Taco Bella, but they could eat Taco Bell.

Right.

Yeah, pretty much.

They liked ramen noodles a lot because it was cheap.

They had a lot of kids.

I'm sure.

I mean, growing up, did you have any ramen noodles?

Sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there was 19 kids.

So like that was easy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you ever, I mean, so many people who are victims

of any type of abuse,

obviously, there's always this period where they, again, they're in denial.

They're hiding it from the outside world.

And then many victims feel a sense of guilt once they come out and come clean and are honest with themselves or just start to heal, especially if there's other victims included.

You know, did you ever experience that in terms of like, once you finally like had the epiphany of what was you were really experiencing and then of feeling any type of shame and guilt unfairly and and and how did you work through that yeah i absolutely kind of like took it all in and i was like is it really that bad like are you sure i can't just like forgive and move on and and like invite them back and like have christmas with them and birthdays and the things that i'm missing you know i was like does it really do i really have to do that and then i had to think about my son and and how abuse isn't a word in their dictionary it's not something that's defined in the iblp They don't know what the word abuse means.

They have no idea.

And so the fact I always, or I always just put myself and my son, you know, in that kind of area and with those kind of people.

And I think like, I'm not going to put him near harm.

Like I refuse.

I will do everything in my power not to do that.

And it stops me every single time from like reaching out or trying to just, you know, condone the behavior or like get rid of the lies and just forget about them and move on and just have everything, pretend like everything's happy and shiny.

But at this point, i'm i'm just i'm done pretending you know good for you yeah thank you do you think they'll any of them any people in the family will try to get back on tv oh i'm sure i'm sure i mean i'm sure i i don't i don't know if it would happen but well you know tv do you think

they love yes they do do you think they feel a certain way that they've pretty much lost all respect from anyone i feel like the you know the nation kind of sees through the duggar family at this point yeah i mean i think pride goes before a fall and i think they they definitely took a pretty large, large, large fall.

But I have no idea how they feel.

I mean, I haven't spoken to them in years.

So I'm just looking at it now from like an outside opinion.

But I found out all, all about the scandals like through national television.

I was about to say, I want to, yeah, if you're like scrolling on

Instagram and I saw a magazine just in the aisle, you know, at the store, and I like looked, like zeroed in on it.

And I was like, oh my gosh, that's my family's house.

Like, what is happening?

Other than Josh's crimes, what are the other things that have come out about them?

I mean, that's pretty much it.

Okay.

But it was just the fact of like the girls weren't protected.

Right.

Do you feel like they were like, you know, like nowadays you have influencers and parent influencers?

You know, Nellie and I have our own conversations.

You know, when River was born, we were these like very excited parents and we have this

platform and, you know, we were showing her face and things like that and we you know we influence at times or whatever and you know we try to have our own boundaries and rules with what we want to do and certainly everyone has their opinion right but knowing full well like I know everyone you if you look you know anyone who looks for their phone you know especially if you're any type of influencer have like a a social following, you know, the world of,

we're in a selfie age.

And we are, if you're very honest with what your, your photo, photo looks like, you might have like 20 selfies before you post the one that you like.

Right.

And when you think about that and you see these parent influencers out there and

people who are showing their kids on any type of public platform,

knowing you're talking about like just, again, there's, you know, it might be a reality TV show, but like you might have to repeat things and do things over.

What is your opinion about

what you see out there and

parent influencers who like, you know, it's just like there are certain things I'll see, and I'll be like, I know that kid had to do that 50 times before they got it right, you know, where kids are repeating lines and doing bits, yeah,

yeah,

I've seen that, I don't like it

parents are monetizing, and even if they are setting up some kind of college fund for their kids, it's just like it's it feels a really icky to do.

Um,

yeah, what, what, what do you think about all that?

So, Daxton models for Sam's club, he he's like a part of the modeling world, it's kind of crazy, but um, but yeah, but I tell him, like, hey, this is up to you if you want to do it, great.

If not, we can stop anytime, it's all up to you.

And he's like, Okay, no, I like it, I like having a job.

And so, we actually like have that money for his college and whatever he'd like to do when he gets older, and that money's not being spent, not one dime.

So, which is great, but yeah, as far as like Instagram and all that, I am so conflicted because I obviously want to show him because he's my son and I'm proud, proud.

And then I also want to keep him safe.

And I have to go, it's hard to believe that there's like sick monsters out there that, you know, want to look at our kids in a, in a really sick way.

I think there's like a, whatever you post of your child, like that's someone's interest.

Right.

You know, and it's like you scroll on TikTok and you see these videos and you see the amount of like saves.

that a video of like a kid has and it's like that just can't be

that can't be good it can't be good we We would run into people in public and they'd be like, I recognized River.

And we were like, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you guys put a heart on her face?

We started recently.

We would, yeah, we would usually just

back of her head, or I zoom in a lot on photos and we'll just crop her head out of it.

We've been talking about that.

We don't want to keep Daxon in a bubble.

We don't want him to live in a bubble, but it is our

job to protect.

It's tough, right?

Because it's not to criticize anyone who's not covering.

Yeah, well, I'm not at the moment.

But it's like, it's, it's a, yeah, and there's some, there's so many times we'll take a video or a photo of her and we like, we want to share it.

You know, we want to share.

Yeah.

Because it's so cute.

And then I will get, you know, when I do post a photo of the back of her head or whatever, I'll get a couple of messages being like, I miss seeing her sweet face.

And I'm like,

well, that's not helping.

Well, that's helpful.

Yeah.

I'm like, you shouldn't miss seeing my child.

Sorry, that's just like validating.

And I bet 99% of them are great.

They are well-intentioned, lovely people.

But there is a level of discomfort because I definitely, you know, I'm a child of the 80s and all the predators that are online.

I know.

They're not in the streets.

And what's crazy is nowadays,

you don't ever hear about parents letting their kids ride their bike a few miles to their friend's house.

And I did that as a kid.

Oh, it's changed completely.

And I did too.

I like to think

that.

And then I'm like, yeah, I don't think so.

Yeah.

So before I wrote this book,

Daxon had his own Instagram.

I'm, because he modeled, he did stuff.

I posted it.

I will tell you, he had like 65,000 followers.

And I thought like, oh, that's really cute.

That's fun.

And then I was like, dang, I hate this.

And here's the thing.

I didn't want to delete what was there, but I put it on private.

And I spent, no kidding, you guys, I.

I probably unfollowed 300 to 400 people a night.

Like I made it at homework for me.

I was like, I know I've got till this amount of time to get all of this done but i didn't want to delete the memories and stuff so i took my time i deleted 65 000 people

and then i put it i was like i'm not kidding it was crazy dylan thought i was nuts but i was like i want to protect him every way i can and so i did that on his instagram and now looking back at like things i post i'm like oh i gotta watch it because you just never know it's hard it's so the world has changed it the world has changed and it's so you know so many opinions out there and you don't ever know really what's, you know, you think like, oh, this is only going to like my friends.

I know.

You know, and then like, I think like only like there's good, I know there's, I know there's terrible people, but in my inner circle, there's good people, you know, there's like genuine people.

Yeah.

And so you think like everyone is.

And it's really sad that it's just, it is so hard.

I feel that as a mom.

I do.

I'm sorry, Natalie.

I'm right there with you.

Yeah.

It's hard.

Well, Amy, I appreciate your time.

This has been a lot of fun.

Was it

Was it as scary as you thought?

No, we could do this anytime.

Well, your book is called Holy Disruptor.

It'll be out October 14th.

I'm assuming you can pre-order now wherever you pre-order books.

Yeah.

And I know for as well that pre-orders matter.

So if you want to support Amy and get your hands on this book, it's very fascinating.

I know everyone who's listening to this show is fascinated with this type of content.

It's an incredible story and one that is also filled with hope and kind of endurance.

And we all have some sort of baggage that we have to work through.

And so we can disrupt it and have a peaceful life.

Thank you for sharing your story, Amy.

Thanks for having me.

That was great.

Goodbye.

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