E897 Ask Nick - Am I A Nag?

how's it going good my name is casey i'm 29 and my question is should i break up with my boyfriend because he only wants to have sex on the weekends okay is that like a hard and

fast rule or is that like something that it's just kind of organically started happening um i mean we've been dating for five years and there's gone like on and off fluctuations of the relationship in our sex life but he's very like i guess i wouldn't say it's a rule but he's made it known that he's disinterested in sex on weekdays.

Okay.

And how serious are you considering breaking up with him over this? Well, I guess there's been a development since I wrote in and we kind of did have a discussion where it's basically been ended, but it's kind of also not been ended at the same time because we're still living together. So I guess kind of part two of my question was, am I making the right decision? And my plan is to move across the country back home with my family.
Okay. So you guys are, as far as you know, kind of broken up.
You live together, but like you guys at a minimum acknowledge that there's a problem for you. And he didn't do enough to fight for the relationship basically correct i was kind of like sitting with these feelings and then we ended up getting into a huge argument a few weeks back and i ended up like in that same argument sharing my feelings about this concern as well as several other concerns that i had in the relationship and decided to come to an end, but not immediately because I'll be still be staying for a while in the home, his house.
And we weren't breaking up because of like immediate reasons. A lot of it included.
There's a lot of other things like wanting a family in my future, et cetera. He doesn't? No.
He's 44.

So he's decided that he's too old for kids and he's just totally disinterested in that and not willing to entertain the conversation. Okay.
So. So would you say, I mean, all jokes aside, I mean, like how, how much of this breakup is centered around a lack of sex versus a myriad of other things? Like, for example, you want to have a family someday.
And according to him, it's a non-negotiable that he doesn't. The sex life is a big thing.
It's sex life plus intimacy. Why I say that is because like,

I think if things were better on that front, um, and I was being more fulfilled

and in that aspect in our relationship, I'd be willing to compromise on some things. My brother and sister-in-law, they just had their first baby and she's turning one soon.
So my big thing is I'm not going to get to be a part of that life because I live on the opposite side of the country. And then I'm also not going to get to be a mom.

So when I'm not feeling fulfilled in that aspect of my life, sexually and in our relationship and different things like that,

it feels more like a big thing to me to be missing out on those other things.

Whereas if it was great, maybe I'd be more willing to compromise.

I mean, that makes sense.

What else is going on in your relationship that's making you consider leaving? Well, I mean, the big thing is intimacy. Basically, we don't ever really kiss or cuddle or anything like that.
Sex life can be, like I was talking about, pretty vanilla. It's not a lot of spontaneity.
Really, only the times sex happens for us is like two o'clock in the morning when he's drunk and i'm not into it because it's not really romantic to me gotcha all right so it sounds like sex is very much on his terms and those terms are like you said are often at a time where you're not interested and And then you mentioned intimacy, kissing, holding hands, touching, things like that. I mean, I think every guy on some level, there's room for improvement when it comes to those types of little things.
But I guess my question to you is, is he the type of partner that occasionally needs to be reminded? But when he is reminded, acknowledges that he can do better or that's something that's important in the relationship, or is he scoffing and blowing you off or making you feel like a nag or stupid for even bringing it up and asking? Which is more reflective of him? He definitely says in conversation, like when we're having this normal conversation, it's something that he can do.

He doesn't know why he doesn't give it to me. And it's a simple and easy thing to ask for.

But as I mentioned earlier, we did get into a big blow up fight where it's happened maybe like four or five times in our five year relationship where he's gotten like super verbally aggressive with me. And he was totally like super awful in that argument and said something along the lines of that, Because I'm young and inexperienced, I have nothing to reference it to, and the amount of affection that he gives me is completely and totally normal, and then I'll find out with any other guy that I'm ever with.
So that kind of soured me towards the future as well. That would make sense.
I mean, it's interesting how he felt comfortable speaking for every man ever in any type of relationship but um to me that's just like um that's just a reaction to feeling defensive on his part not not in any way excusing anything he said but i'm guessing that's where it comes from and how do and i'm assuming you know like that that's not the case or true he says I'm young and inexperienced, but he's probably my fourth serious boyfriend. So I've been in relationships with very long forms of affection.
You're not 17. It's also a weird thing for him to say, given you are his girlfriend.
I couldn't imagine at this stage for me to tell my wife, who's three years younger than you, and I'm the same age as your boyfriend, to talk about her inexperience or her youth at this stage of our relationship.

It's more a reflection of him than it is of you.

Because that's basically, it's just like, well, why are you dating?

I would say, why are you dating this person?

You really think she's that young and inexperienced? You've been, A, with her for five years, and B, she's 29. And so, why are you dating? I would say like, why are you dating this person? You really think she's that young and inexperienced? You've been A, with her for five years and B, she's 29.
And so is that what you prefer, young and inexperienced? Or is like, is your reason for dating this younger person is because despite her age, you were surprised by like just how much you guys had in common or how much you guys enjoyed each other's company or just how much you wanted similar things and yada, yada, yada. That comment is very much to me a reflection of him and not you.
It's just a projection of his point of view and doesn't really speak to anything about you. No, I know.
I think part of it is we did have a lot of things in common, but I have heard things from his family and then just noticed about him in general that he does kind of like to date people more on the side where he can shape and mold them into more of a person that suits his lifestyle better into where he doesn't really have to change at all. Yeah.
Well, how's that worked out for him so far? He's been cheated on by like all of his past girlfriends. And I think he takes a lot of that out on me as far as like commitment wise.
Again, we've been dating for five years and another thing he hasn't asked me to get married and that's something that I want and doesn't seem like something in his future. Yeah, listen, I'm not saying it's his fault for being cheated on, you know, but clearly what you are describing as a person who, if what you're saying is true and what you've heard is true, and I'm sure there is some truth to it, is that this is a very stubborn individual who, as this person has gotten older, has obviously been able to date younger, whatever.
I'm guessing he looks fairly good for his age. Yes.
Yeah. So because he's aged gracefully, he's able to attract younger people as well.
But again, again the pattern his family members are noticing is like this is this very stubborn person who is able to like you said kind of mold person into their lifestyle which i think i'm sure he would say kind of works at first whether that's that's whether it is like conscious intention or not you know it's like one thing for a family member to deserve something versus him being like well i, I do this because this, and he just, as opposed to just kind of happens that way. But I would imagine, you know, like you are in this position now feeling the way you're feeling versus past ex-girlfriends.
Is that like, again, not to justify cheating at all, but it makes sense that someone who like initially dates younger is in a position of power, right? I bet you feel like you have a lot more agency and voice in this relationship than you did when you first met the guy. And when you first met the guy, you were 24 years old and he was 39 years old.
And I don't know what it felt. I'm sure it's kind of exciting.
You probably had more money than you. You probably had more means, a little bit more life experience.
He probably spoke maybe with a little more confidence. Maybe you were a little bit more quiet and demure at first.
I don't know. But I'm sure as you, your relationship, you know, as you guys got to go now that you found your voice, I'm assuming it felt like he was your equal.
And as you continue to find your voice, you speak up more. You ask for more.
You demand more. You know, and if he's's still acting as if you're going to be the same person at 24 as you are at 29, he's in for a rude awakening.
And it sounds like he has been in for a rude awakening. Partly of the problem maybe is some of these younger women he dated didn't know how to communicate to someone older, someone who is obviously not really open to communicating, could be accused of being dismissive when they are trying to communicate to him.
And their immature response was to find comfort in sanctuary outside of the relationship before they ended the relationship, which, again, is not OK. But like you would think he would be reflective on some of the choices he is making to try to avoid future frustrations.
But he's not. I know what i'm saying he's just not he's not willing to go there so based on what you're telling me you're describing someone who seems pretty set in his ways seems to be unwilling to look in the mirror and reflect on what role he played in the failure of his past relationships right now my guess is he is scapegoating his ex-girlfriends and victimizing himself as the person who's been cheated on.
And while he was wrong, and that's obviously, I feel really bad for him, and he doesn't deserve what happened to him, he can still look in the mirror and ask himself, what could I have done differently in that relationship? What could I have controlled that would have improved that situation? And a lot of people have a hard time doing that because to do that, people feel like they're taking the blame for someone else's actions, right? And I think a lot of people, I've mentioned this before, struggle with empathy versus an explanation. People are afraid to understand why things happen out of fear of justifying what happened, right? That's the thing people struggle with the most.
So he hasn't tried to understand the why. It's just been easier for him to victimize himself and make them the bad guy in his story rather than look at, could I have done things differently to avoid that outcome? Maybe the relationship would have ended, I don't know, but maybe he made it very difficult to communicate with someone.
And again, they made a poor choice themselves. They stepped out of the relationship.
It hurt him, but he's not doing anything differently. He's just rinse and repeat, breaks up with that one, finds a new younger girlfriend, dates them for a while, enjoys the, I'm guessing the honeymoon phase of dating someone younger because he gets his way a lot.
They're very in awe of him. He feels important.
He feels validated, et cetera, et cetera. They find their voice.
They speak up. He's just like, I'm an old dog.
No new tricks for me. It's a cycle that keeps repeating.
The only thing that's different about your relationship is that you seem to be willing to address this head on without stepping outside of the relationship before you do so. Yeah.
I mean, that's just always been a non-negotiable for me that like if i'm ever getting to the point where i feel like stepping out or having feelings for somebody else i'm always i'll break up sure i gotta break up i never want to do that but um so let me ask you this nail on the head with like with the dynamic of our relationship from start to now and his perspective on being cheated on in the past. So that's exactly right.
Obviously, you called in with the question of, am I making the right choice? Let me ask you this. If he were here, what's his version? What's his version of the story? What would he say to me do you think that would change your mind or at least help me or the audience empathize with his plight more? or what do you think that would change your mind or or at least help me or the audience empathize

with his plight more what do you think that would be I don't know it'll help people empathize with

him but I think it's honestly genuinely genuinely what he thinks is like that I haven't given him

enough of a chance to kind of change things and he knows these are all things that he's super

capable of and that he can he can and will do anything to make the relationship work and

Thank you. change things and he knows these are all things that he's super capable of and that he can he can and will do anything to make the relationship work and like whatever it takes he'll make the relationship work but what is he so then what is he doing i mean we went we went through this phase we almost broke up basically over the summer and he said all these things and i mean things were good for a while but it ended up being like i think I'm realizing the reason it ends up being good is because I'm the one that starts to fully invest back in the relationship again.
And then after a few months, I started to pull back again because I'm like, wait, is he really trying? It doesn't seem like he's trying that much. So I don't know if I could say like, he'll be a little bit better for a few weeks about complimenting me or walking our dog or just trying to do something to make me happy but then after that it feels like it kind of goes dry again when he said I don't know why I am the way I am type of thing but like if I could I would what does he mean by I mean I've said I've said to him before like he just says like it honestly doesn't cross his mind and I'm kind of like well I call BS I don't know sorry I'm not allowed to him before, like, he just says, like, it honestly doesn't cross his mind.
And I'm kind of like, well, I call BS. I don't know.
Sorry, I'm allowed to say that. But you can say that.
I mean, he has he has a ton of things like he's really good at I know maybe this is a common analogy for men, but sports stats and all these things and all these different facts he can keep in his head and remember to do things. And he'll set reminders to make sure he does things.
And I said, why don't you put a reminder on your phone? Make sure you give Casey a hug when she gets home or make sure you kiss Casey a little bit more like just different reminders of things like that. Yeah.
I mean, listen, I don't think I'm, I'm not the most affectionate guy, you know, like physical touch is not on the top of my love language, right? It's on the top of my wife's. And yeah, to that point, I have to remind myself that I really need to come home and embrace my wife or do something.
And I could always be better, right? But when my wife brings it up to me, I don't play victim. I'm always like, yes.
And I either try to do the thing she's asking. And we have a playful banter, sure, but it's never a fight.
That's for sure. It's one thing for a love language not to be a strength of mine.
It's another thing to be so defensive of that fact that instead of acknowledging I'm not meeting my partner's needs, I argue with them and try to justify why I haven't done that as opposed to just shutting up and doing it. And I think that comes with maturity, which is disappointing for him because if you told me your boyfriend was 28, I would maybe just think that he's just a little stubborn and a little immature.
44, I mean, he's not figuring it out. You're not describing a man who's ever really been able to learn from any of his heartbreaks.
He's only paying himself out to be a victim my my question is on that is like he kind of challenges me a lot that like i need to tell him more but it gets like it doesn't make the intimacy as like i don't know it doesn't feel the same when you're constantly having to remind somebody so it's like how often do i have to remind somebody? Or is that, I mean, just up to me, how often I want to do that in my relationship? I mean, at a certain point, it gets kind of like not genuine anymore. I think it's a bit of a dance, right? And I don't know your exact dynamic.
But for starters, for one, when you do bring it up, it shouldn't come with resistance from him. It shouldn't come with like huffs and puffs and complaints.
And you know what I'm saying? Where you really feel like it's one thing to have to ask. You'd prefer not to ask.
It makes it really attractive when he like complains about you asking and, and it finds and makes it seem inconvenient as opposed to like, he needs to treat it it as a like he appreciates you taking the time to remind him kind of thing.

You know, listen, for example, Natalie, like I was in New York over the weekend.

She didn't get to come.

I was there for a wedding, ran some errands.

And now it was like I was stopping at a store to get a friend like a small like thank you gift.

She knew what store I was going to. And she's like, by the way, I really love their sweaters.
I'm a size medium in a playful way. Now, I didn't end up buying her a sweater.
I ended up sending her flowers or whatever. But in a playful way, she always will throw out jokes about getting her this or getting her that.
It's not really serious or anything like that. She is sometimes giving me ideas.
And then I will deliver on some of these ideas from time to time. And I actually appreciate it.
Like to me, in a lot of ways, I think Natalie sets me up for success, right? She will joke about flyers from time to time. It's never like, why don't you ever get me flowers? She'll joke about like, boy, grocery stores always have flowers right at the checkout and they make it so easy.
You know, it's just like a little reminder here or there and nally has a nice way of doing it without making it feel like i'm being nagged and but it's up to me to take advantage of those kind of ideas that she has does that make sense i've literally had like this the same thing like the last time that we broke up i said like for example some things you could do just when you go to the store every now and then like buy a flower like buy buy something just it doesn't have to be like expensive just something that shows that you were thinking about me and then like so we get get back together and my thoughts are oh man like he's gonna go to the store and get me flowers after we just had this conversation where I said get me flowers and then he doesn't so I kept playfully nudging you know oh you're going to the store like why don't buy me some flowers? Or we went to the farmer's market together and I was like, oh, is this, are you going to buy me flowers? And he's like, do you really want me to buy you flowers here? And I was like, well, I guess not. Yeah, he is definitely a very, it sounds like a very stubborn man who doesn't like to be told what to do.
And when you are saying these things, he is, he gets annoyed. And I imagine you feel frustrated because you're like, well, he's definitely not going to give it to me if I never bring it up.
When I do bring it up, he makes it, it's almost like, well, now that you brought it up, I'm not going to do it. Because it's like, he doesn't want to be told to do anything or reminded to do things.
And it's just like, well, okay. You said a few minutes ago that he thinks that he would do anything to make a relationship work.
Is that accurate? It's just like, well, okay. Yeah.
Like, you said a few minutes ago that he thinks that he would do anything

to make a relationship work.

Is that accurate?

It's accurate that that's what he said.

I don't believe that, though.

Well, I know you don't believe it,

but I'm saying, like, why do you think he said that,

and do you think he believes it?

I really don't think that he wants to have to go through

another breakup again.

I mean, obviously, I know he really loves me and cares about me. There are a lot of really great aspects to our relationship as in we're best friends.
But I feel like that's where it stops. But I think he wants to believe that he can do all those things for me.
So that's why he says it. It is a true statement.
Those are easy things to give or to ask for. And and it's not unrealistic so i think he's being honest in the sense that he believes he can do it but not in the sense that it will be done in terms of like back to the sex you know because men are men like have you done things to spice things up on your end only to be turned down let's say like send him a sexy photo randomly hoping that he would like get turned on and want to come home and ravage you and you know blah blah blah blah blah like if you've done anything like that and then been turned down yeah i definitely definitely do things like that but like it's just more of like a response of like flame emojis and then that's where it ends so i've done other things you know like put on lingerie and come out into the living room or like come out in the shower towel in the living room and it's usually initiated then but i'm not the most 100 like confident person in myself sexually it doesn't help to have a partner that's really not that into sex all the time to build that confidence he's really really getting you with nothing.
I try as best as I can. He doesn't sound like a man in therapy, but I'm just going to ask, is he in therapy or have you guys tried couples therapy? He has gone to therapy specifically to get over being cheated on.
And then he said he went one day and just no longer had any upset feelings. So he never went back.
He did agree to do couples therapy with me, which entailed me calling around to a bunch of couples therapists, never being able to book an appointment and not getting any help in booking one. So, and then we're where we are now.
So, so, and then you mentioned you're kind of broken up, like what's his state of mind right now? So I ended things and then we're still living together. And I decided to have a conversation with him.
Like, Hey, basically we're still going to be living together and we're hanging out. Like we're still friends and doing all these things together.
Like we're still friends, which is weird because a week ago we were boyfriend and girlfriend. So it's hard.

Like when you're sitting on the couch with somebody watching TV or doing all

these things together,

which is what it's like involuntary sometimes.

So like put your hand on their leg or like rub their shoulder or do things

like that.

So I kind of just said like,

like what's your boundaries as far as while I'm still living here.

And he said,

like,

I always want you to hug me and kiss me, touch me, whatever, as long as you're here. And I did say like, okay, but my mind's not going to change as far as like wanting kids in the future.
And that's a non-negotiable for you. And he said, yeah.
So that's kind of where we left it. And like he said, he's okay with us being intimate until I go.
I just don't, I don't know if he fully understands. understands there is no chance of ever getting back together and i don't know if i'm making a bad decision on his or being like rude or inconsiderate to him by still doing those things while knowing it's not going to go forward he's an adult he's a big boy he's 44 years old i don't know if he takes you seriously.
I mean, he's not giving the energy like he is, right? Things aren't adding up, right? If you're a guy who says, I would do anything for you, I don't want to lose you, I love you, A, he would be willing to make some changes. Some of your asks aren't that hard.
I don't think it's one thing, having sex only on the weekends, I guess I mean, like if you guys were having sex every Saturday and Sunday, I mean, two times a week is not the worst late at night. He's, you know what I'm saying? Like drunk, you know, it's just like, no, no, who would want that? You know what I'm saying? Like who would want a relationship where the sex life is solely decided by the man one side? And then again, he doesn't want to have kids.
You do that alone. I mean, quite honestly, honestly like if if that really is how he feels and that's how you feel then you guys definitely should break up that's i think it's the kids thing it's like a super new feeling for me i was always kind of on the page of like i don't see myself being a mom uh ever and then my brother and sister-in-law had a kid and we had a FaceTime call over Christmas.
And I was looking at her face on FaceTime, the baby. And I was like, well, I think she will keep him.
Listen, it's the best. Listen, I don't want to.
So I've been battling with that. Listen, I obviously I'm biased.
I'm a new dad. I don't want to project any of my parenting beliefs or desires onto anyone else, but it's the greatest thing ever.
I've never met a parent, whether they've always wanted to be a parent or like yourself, kind of decided later in life that something they wanted, that they didn't think it was the absolute most incredible experience and gave their life some real purpose. I hope everyone has the opportunity to experience what it's like to be a parent.
That's an awesome, awesome thing. My brother and I grew up with a lot of family trauma.
And so my brother is very similar to you and how he talks about his daughter and how he talks about being a dad and how I get to see him being a dad. And being able to see a family member that grew up in those same traumas and experiences that you did be a successful parent is like really eye-opening towards being like, oh, maybe I can do this too.
You know, it's one of those things too. It's just like, you know, we live in a time where we become hyper-conscientist of our childhood traumas.
We become way more aware of reasons, you know, that things that have hurt us or damaged us, right? But I think we've become less resilient as well, right? And I think some of these things that we become aware of to explain what happened to us, to explain why we are the way we are, like, it's, I think it's important, right? Because it makes us feel like things are less our fault, at least it gives us a path for healing. But I also think in a lot of ways, it's become an excuse not to make improvements in our life, right? I didn't have a traumatic childhood relative to, for example, my wife, right? Or sounds like you.
But there's a lot of people who choose not to use past misfortunes as a reason not to be a better version of themselves. Sounds like your brother really has embraced fatherhood and wants to not bring upon his daughter what was brought upon him, right so you can choose to do that.
And you can get therapy. You can get help.
And you can acknowledge that, hey, this should happen to me, but I don't want to pass that down. I can do things differently.
Like your boyfriend sounds like he's just a victim, especially when it comes to cheating and not wanting to do things differently. Everything you're saying sounds like you've really thought this through.
And he's not giving you anything to work with. Even now now you're broken up and he's not even fighting for you he's just kind of like well you know i guess you know he's being a gracious host like he's being a really cool landlord you know what i'm saying he's just allowing you to continue to live there and he's like yeah i mean like we could still have sex and like hook up i mean he's being really really nice about you staying there he really is he could

be a much bigger dick you know what i'm saying but he's not fighting for you he's not doing any

you know he's not doing anything that makes him really feel like he's gonna miss you or be sorry

and like the best you can do is wonder if he's even taking you seriously and honestly who knows

i just like i really struggle because i've gone through this before like i had an apartment ready

to go and i had talked to my job and i was ready to leave and then i ended up staying and listening

Thank you. I just like I really struggle because I've gone through this before.
Like I had an apartment ready to go and I had talked to my job and I was ready to leave. And then I ended up staying and listening because he said he was going to, you know, change and fix everything.
And then here I am again in this phase where like, okay, it all feels real again. And I'm making plans to move and leave.
And then, of course, I mean, I know this is so common, but like, all I can think about is all the good things things and all the like he's being a very gracious host. So we're having all these really great times together and laughing and joking and being more intimate because that's what happens when you think you're about to lose somebody.
And it's really hard to fight those feelings and be like remembering all the reasons that you want to leave right now. And I'm like, no, that's what he's banking on for sure the right decision well all the other stuff aside his rude comments the limited sex the lack of intimacy the fact that he makes you feel like a nag all that aside the fact that you want to be a mom and he absolutely doesn't it's all you need i mean that's you should assume he's not going to change i don't't think anyone should be in a relationship with someone who clearly doesn't want to have kids and then tries to convince themselves if they're okay with not having kids for the sake of a relationship.
Think of all the things he's not willing to do for you, the little things. Yeah.
And he is indirectly asking you to give up on the miracle of being a mom. That's a huge ask.
Yeah. Well, he said, that's a pretty crappy reason to end a relationship i mean i know it's a big reason but i think it's a pretty crappy one because like nothing else went wrong but that i'm like he hasn't matured at a rate he should have at this point in his life that's that's an insane thing for him to say and if anything what that says is that he is he's this you're describing a person who is very much can't think outside of himself.
He's very self-centered. He's very selfish.
And that's honestly very typical for a lot of people who aren't in committed relationships. He's 44 years old and he doesn't have a family.
And that's not a criticism on him. It's just that prior to me being in a relationship with Natalie, by default, I had a more self-centered life.
I only really had me to care about.

And even when Natalie and I were still dating, it wasn't like we were just boyfriend and

girlfriend.

You know, my primary concern was me, my job, the people, you know, like you just by default

become more selfish and self-centered.

And he has really like leaned into that.

And he seems to be incapable of even acknowledging what he's asking you.

He doesn't want to have kids and he's expecting you to be comfortable with that

and make you feel bad for thinking about like,

well, because you don't even want to break up with them.

Here you are fighting for this relationship.

It feels like you're fighting by yourself.

His big solution to this whole relationship problem

is for you to get on board.

Like in every category,

at least of what you're describing,

whether it's a sex life,

whether it's the intimacy,

whether it's the having kids, he's very consistent. And which is, this is how I feel.
This is who I am. Take it or leave it.
What advice would you have in helping me, I guess, like stand my ground in my head? And the mom thing is strong, but it's a new feeling. So I'm kind of like, well, what if it waivers? It's only been around for a couple a couple months so like that's why that is hard being a deciding factor to me like so do you have any advice on i want to make sure that i don't end up staying for another year and then i'm back here in the same place that i am now we like back together with him yeah and then let's assume that happened i mean we've gone through the cycle where it's like almost ended and then stayed together.
But look at it, stayed together. I don't want this for you and you don't want this for yourself, but let's just play that.
You know, if you broke up with him and you moved back home, he didn't move on. He didn't forget about you.
You didn't move on. You didn't forget about him.
You guys reconnected in six months, nine months. You're back.
You move back together with him. And literally in a year from now, you are back together with it being kind of essentially the same.
That would be a choice that you make for one. No one's going to make you do that.
So if you do do that, you're choosing to do that. And that's something you need to recognize too.
That's not the worst case scenario. At least at that point, you were able to go home and enjoy your niece or nephew, spend time with family, probably date other people get a sense of what else is out there explore your feelings about children if you decide a year from now that you don't want to have kids and he's willing to get back together with you then what did you lose nothing you know what i'm saying what you you gain you gain perspective you gained like at least to explore what else is out there what the real worst case scenario is for you to accept this life that you have right now, which is making you unhappy.
And despite how much you're fighting for this relationship, it's, it sounds like you're fighting a battle by yourself. And I would hate for you to know nothing about it and just accept this as the best you can get.
And a year from now still be with the guy having these same feelings and not even knowing what it's like and still questioning whether you should leave or not at least with that other scenario at least you got to leave and chose to come back you know what i'm saying like that's not for nothing yeah you you would be gaining perspective at least but that's again that's that's you don't have to go back it does sound like he doesn't take you very seriously like you've gotten this close before like you said and the routine was for him to just like allow the fear of breaking you guys up to reconnect you guys have a little more steamy sex you know take some of the attention off the table but that's not what you want because you know that's temporary. So in the short term, I would probably stop sleeping with them for one.
I would act like roommates. That might help you get some perspective.
I guess it's just hard to draw the boundary there. Sure, yeah.
Criticism toward, if you have such a hard time with that, that's part of the reason why he's not taking you seriously. At some point, this person, your he's not changing because at the end of the day it's been easier for him to wear you down it sounds it's hard to think of it like that because then it like makes it sound like malicious on his part but i guess it's not just maybe like self-defense yeah i mean subconsciously like you've heard me use this like metaphor before but people do not spend more than they need to.
You know, people don't, they're not charged $15 at the register and they don't just offer 20 bucks for no reason. So if you are constantly always accepting what he's willing to give, even if it's the bare minimum, then he's generally only going to give the bare minimum.
So all he has to do is kind of wear you out and he ends up getting getting what he wants. And that's probably been fairly consistent from him.
And I really empathize for him. I really feel for him because the only thing that's really happened out of this so far is he gets cheated on, which is such an egregious sin in a relationship.
He quickly becomes the victim. So here he is in all these relationships, including yours now, where he pushes their partner away.
He pushes their partner away. He disconnects.
He stonewalls.

He makes himself out to be like this mini victim as if like, I'm trying my best, but you asked too

much of me. But like, I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do

that. Again, they make the decision wrong as it is.
They made a decision partly because they, you know, they don't know what to do with this fucking guy anymore. And while thankfully you have the maturity and the self-respect not to cheat on him, that his partners didn't have the same self-respect that you had.
And then that happens, and then immediately there's no reflection on the role he played. He's just like, I'm a victim, they're a bitch, they cheated on me, they're horrible horrible and poor me.
And I really feel for him because this has become a pattern for him. And instead of growing through these experiences, it's almost stunted his growth as a man.
I know you're very big on, I haven't read your book. I'm not a big book reader.
Maybe I will, but I know you're very big on don't text your ex, not maintaining friendships after. my big thing is his family has been like, I mentioned,

I had some family trauma and like,

so his family has really become my family.

I've been there for every event for like his nieces and nephews and his mom

and his dad. If like, I mean, they really become my family.

I do want to maintain a relationship with them. And then, I mean, I think I'd be fine maintaining a relationship with him sometime in the future, like friendship wise, but I'm curious.
I don't recommend it. I think that's a bad idea.
I do. Yeah.
Listen, I understand all the things you're saying that in the short term, it's going to be, it makes the breakup more difficult because, you know, that's the problem with, you know, having five-year relationships is that you don't just develop relationships with your partner, you develop relationships with their friends and their family. And in some cases, they really become as much of a support system for you as they were for your partner.
It makes your life harder. It makes it easier for him to get back in.
He does this every time we almost break up. He always builds me and says, this is what happens.
I'm never going to be able to talk to you again. Everybody says that they'll stay friends, but they never stay friends.
And I have no problem just being a friend if a relationship ends. And I just know you're never going to talk to me again.
yeah it's a little manipulative but also your your boyfriend's giving a little bit of boy right like and here's the thing when you break up with someone you should break up with them

and like i'm assuming that if if i were a genie, I could tell the future. If I was like, Casey, I hate to break it to you.
You'll, you'll never find love outside of this relationship. This is it for you.
You would probably stay in the relationship. You'd be like, oh, that sucks.
I mean, that's not perfect, but like, I guess he's good enough. You know, like you, if you're going to break up with someone, you should assume because it's almost certainly true that you will find someone else.
I don't know when that will be, but the only reason you are considering breaking off this relationship is because you think you can do better, that you deserve better, that you deserve a relationship and a partner who is going to make it feel like they enjoy making you feel happy. They look forward to making you feel happy.
Yes, they need to be reminded from time to time about what they can and should do, but they appreciate the reminders and ultimately they wake up excited every day, thankful that you are in their life and glad they have an opportunity to show you that love, right? Because you do, everyone deserves that. And if you're going to leave this relationship, it's in pursuit of finding that, right? And you will find it someday.
And so with that in mind, you need to do that immediately, right? And you need to live your life as if you're moving on and pursuing that next life and that next love. And you don't know who that's going to be with and who it is, but you're going to start today whenever that, you know, if you were to end the relationship.
That's the mentality you need to have. The only reason people stay friends and breakups is because they're second guessing their decision.
Or in his case, if he's being broken up with, he's hoping for a lifeline, right? It's not because they're actual friends, right? Either you're going to find someone new or he's going to find someone new. And both of your partners are going to be like, no, no, I'm not comfortable with you being friends with your ex of five years what are you guys friends for you're just simply friends because you haven't replaced them with someone else but here i am in your life now wanting to be your boyfriend and i'm really uncomfortable with chad being your buddy when he was your boyfriend for five years you know what i'm saying like no one's gonna be okay with that his next girlfriend if you break up him and he ages down, whatever, and finds the impressionable young person who puts up with his very rigid expectations of what he's willing to give in a relationship, she's also not going to be comfortable with you.
And she's not going to be comfortable with you being best friends with his sister or mother or whoever. I'm not saying you need to cut off his family immediately, but listen, it's a sad reality of relationships in life and you will recover from it.
And again, your next boyfriend, well, I don't know how their family dynamic is going to be. Maybe he won't be as close with them or whatever or yada yada, but you will be able to find that.
But the goal for you, you're looking for a family potentially, right? You're looking for a life partner. You're interested in having children and you're not're not going to i promise you if you're lucky enough to find someone that is excited about spending the rest of your life with you and having a family with you you won't give a fuck about like what friends you kept you know i'll you know in in your previous life your life will literally i mean talk to your brother he'll know what exactly what i'm saying.
It's just like, your life kind of starts over from that moment, you know? And you're just not going to have time to keep in touch with your ex-boyfriend's mom. You're just not going to care.
You'll wish her well. It's hard for you to recognize that now because you're still, you know, you still love your boyfriend.
You still live with them. You're kind of like, you're broken up, but kind of not really.
And that's just like a hard thing thing for you to grasp but it's definitely not great to stay connected and in touch because it just makes it that much more difficult to move on and if listen getting back together is not the worst thing it's not having any clarity and so yeah it's harsh but it's the right thing to do if you decide to move on a good way to think of it is like it's not going going to matter to me as much once I've created one of my own. It won't.
So I guess that's a good way to look at it. And like, you know, you have friends and you have your brother and like you have a sister-in-law and like the people who are always closest with at 29, I'm trying to think where I was in my life when I was 29, but I promise you that will evolve and you definitely shouldn't be making decisions about your future self and your future life for like relatives of ex-boyfriends who decided they weren't willing to like do their part so okay it's helpful to hear your point of view on him as well because like if i talk to my like girlfriends or my mom or whatever it's kind of just like he sucks leave him and then if i talk to his family member and his friends it's a little because like if I talk to my like girlfriends or my mom or whatever, it's kind of just like he sucks, leave him.

And then if I talk to his family member and his friends, it's a little like, well, like this is just him, but I think he can make it work.

If he wanted to, he would.

Yeah, listen, I really do empathize with him.

And that's not for you to like feel so bad for him.

You stay with him.

He's not over his being cheated on for sure.

He's also he hasn't been willing to look at like the role he played i wonder if even that question would trigger him is he is he aware of how stubborn he is the difference between you and all his exes is that you have your own personal boundary about like your unwillingness to cheat some people are just like have having enough trauma in their life and that's just maybe their parents that shit. And they just think that's the answer to getting out or whatever.
They self-sabotage, things like that. Some people, not to make excuses for any of his ex-girlfriends, shouldn't happen.
It's like communication's hard. And your boyfriend, it sounds like he's very difficult to communicate with.
Yeah. I mean, I've had, I've had that same literal thought of like, I mean, I would never do it, but I can see where a woman would get to the point where they might feel like stepping out on this relationship dynamic.
Yeah. I mean, think about it right now.
You're, you're like, I'm talking to you and you're giving me all these answers and like, and you're still struggling with wondering if you're making the right decision. Again, not justifying at all.
Cause I do think it's one of the worst things you can do to someone and cheating on someone really will fuck them up emotionally and mentally. And it's just a terrible, terrible thing.
But the reality is, is like, it's more common than it's not common. And you have to ask yourself why, right? And there are reasons why people do it.
I had to reflect when I got cheated on in the past about like, you know, could I have done things differently? It doesn't, it doesn't make it my fault. It's no one's fault for being cheated on.
They made a choice, but you can still look at your own choices as what got you in that position, right? And so here you are, your boyfriend's really good at making you question how you're feeling and making you like not confident in your decisions. And I can see a less better communicator who doesn't have the boundary you have feeling like they should break up with this guy, afraid of doing it.
So they just like fuck another guy to like kind of make the decision for themselves in a way like that shit happens and like your your boyfriend you can't come back from that yeah you can't come back from that and like you know it's your boyfriend it's like right in front of his face you know and he doesn't even want to like do anything about it and you know it's funny ironically here he is telling you about other men and like what you're supposed to accept and things like that. What's more accurate is like, if you don't change, you're going to keep pushing all of your partners away at some point.
He wants to speak for all men. I think you can speak for more women talking about what they're not going to be okay with once they find their voice and are uncomfortable in a relationship with him.
And if he only wants to have sex on his terms, and if he only is willing to be affectionate on his terms and make you feel bad for asking and make you feel like a nag and make you feel stupid or for wanting some of the things in your life that he doesn't, it ain't going to get much better for him. I wanted to say one last thing before we end the call.
The side note is kind of unrelated, but I wanted to say thank you for having the perspective that you do on the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni drama as somebody that's dealt with harassment and things like that. It's very refreshing to have at least one person in a podcast of you guys always saying things that I'm like, am I crazy? Yeah, well, listen, it's been a while.
I appreciate it. Well, thank you for saying, and I appreciate you saying that because sometimes it does feel like we are alone with our opinion, but I can assure you we're right.
Anyways, I appreciate all of your advice and everything that you do, and I love the podcast and everything. Thank you very much.
Sorry you're going through this, but you're not crazy. And I think your instincts and your gut is right.
And I think you should follow your gut. You're only 29.
You're still incredibly young. You have a ton going for you.
You can leave this relationship feeling good knowing that you've tried. And every relationship I've ever been in that didn't work out, whether I got cheated on or whether I broke up with them or whether they, you know, broke up with me, I always felt like I did everything I could.
I probably stayed in a relationship longer than I should have. And so, you know, the stuff about, you know, you thought you were going to break up in the past and didn't and yada, yada.
Like if you decide to leave this man, you can feel good that you've, you've done everything you could. You tried, you turned over every stone, you looked looked in every nook and cranny and he just decided that this is who he is and if you're not going to accept who he is then he's not going to change and it's not your job to convince him how wrong he is you never you can't predict the future i don't know you know it would be hard for you to trust that he's actually going to make a change because like once you break up then it becomes something he's only willing to do once he took serious took seriously but like put it this way fast forward let's say you break up with him let's say all of a sudden he's like oh crying and begging for you back and really changing he i would say to him i don't think you ever really dealt with the reasons why you've been cheated on and why like you know and then this may hurt your feelings but like i understand you know, the hurt, but like, you never really addressed the why.
And while it's not your fault, you got cheated on. Like there is a pattern in your life that you're not willing to change for the people in relationships and you force them to make these drastic decisions.
Like I didn't want to break up with you. You know, the only difference between me and your ex-girlfriends is I just chose a healthier way to get out of the relationship.
But at the end of the day, I wanted to be in this relationship and you pushed me away. Yeah, that's a good idea.
Good point. Good luck.
I hope this was helpful. Yeah, it was.
It was really helpful. All right.
Well, take care. Please keep us posted.
We'd love to know what you end up doing. And we're here if you need.
All right. All right.
Thank you. All right.
Bye-bye. Bye.
This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. We all talk about therapy, how important it is, and it's never been more important than right now.
I know so many of you, no matter how much we've talked about the benefits of therapy, have thought about therapy, considered therapy, and avoided therapy. And we get it.
Listen, it can be expensive. It can be inconvenient.
And also, it can be really hard to find a therapist that, well, I don't even want to go see, let alone connect with. Well, that's where BetterHelp comes in and making it easier than ever before to check out therapy and get the mental help that you may need.
Whether it's general anxiety, relationship problems, work problems, maybe you're just ruminating too much, you know, whatever it is. therapy has really impacted my life our relationship, mine and Natalie's and since BetterHelp is working with new therapists

every day, they make it very easy to connect with the therapist

all you have to do to get started is go to betterhelp.com, answer a few simple questions about the type of therapy you're looking for, what you want to talk about, and BetterHelp will assign you a therapist that they think will be a good fit for you. You could be talking and having your first therapy session in just a couple of days by just going to betterhelp.com right now.
And God forbid that your first therapy session doesn't blow your mind. No worries.
You can switch therapists until you find someone that you are absolutely in love with. It's more affordable than in-person therapy.
It's incredibly convenient. You can literally, whatever your preferences are, you want to do it from your phone, your apartment, you can do it on vacation.
All you have to do is have something to connect your, a phone, a tablet, a computer. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Access a diverse network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists, again, at any time, at no cost.
Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L today to get 10% off your first month.
That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Who doesn't love bread? But wouldn't it be nice to enjoy bread without the guilt? Well, with Hero Bread, you can focus on your health goals and still indulge in the soft, fluffy food you love guilt-free.
Whether it's a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese with cozy soup, a family burger night, Hero Bread has you covered no matter what kind of bread you are craving, loaves, tortillas, bagels, rolls, or pastries. Hero Bread has it.
Their food tastes great and it feels great too. Nellie and I love breakfast sandwiches in the morning and using Hero Bread's classic white bread or Hero Bread's cheese and herb crescent rolls are absolutely a favorite for us their products are delicious and flavorful but

have ultra low net carbs zero grams of sugar and are high in fiber the best part is you wouldn't

know it from the texture and amazing flavor with your bread you can get monthly small batch drops

of indulgent favorites like their four gram net carb bagel and new surprises coming this year

hero bread is offering 10 off your order go to hero.co and use code v i a l l at checkout again And that's V-I-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-O-S-T-A-L-L at checkout. Again, that's V-I-A-L-L at hero.co spelled H-E-R-O dot C-O hero.co.
How's it going? Hi, I'm good. I am Shannon.
I'm 27 years old and I'm a lifelong vegetarian and I'm wondering if that's worth changing for a man. Lifelong.
Okay. Lifelong.
All 27 years of my life. You've never had meat in your life? Never, ever.
And yeah, it's kind of some unique circumstances for it because I'm the only one in my entire family. And so I grew up in the Northeast and kind of decided from a very young age with a good friend of mine who's basically like a sister that we loved animals too much and didn't want to eat meat.
And we grew up at a boarding school where both of our dads taught. So we just ate at the dining hall and didn't really have to have our parents cook for us.
So they respected that. And then all these years later, just kind of stuck.
Gotcha. Okay.
Is that a deer on your shirt? It's a moose. A moose.
Okay. Yes, it is.
Now I live out in the West in a really rural area where hunting and meat is very prominent. And that's why it's become an issue, particularly in my dating life, because everybody where I live eats meat.
That's the main part of their diet. And for me, it obviously isn't.
And I tried to kind of not bring that up right away, but people eventually learn and then they kind of write me off. So wondering if I should start eating meat to give me a better chance at love and dating, or if I should stick to my guns.
Is there a particular man that you're considering doing this for? I have a man in my life right now.

There's been many men who have pressured me

since moving to where I live now to do it.

And so now I'm currently

in this casual relationship with this

guy out where I live. He's born

and bred. So he

pretty much eats elk for

every single meal every day.

That's all he eats. Elk.

So there's big hunting in elk. He kills his own elk, eats his own elk, all those things.
Yeah. That's it.
He's a carnivore. I don't even eat elk and I eat meat.
Yeah. How do you know? You never eat elk.
I wouldn't know. Yeah.
So this is the guy particularly right now I consider quote unquote changing it for, but it's also kind of difficult because we're in a relationship where he's a little bit older than me. He has kids and wants to move closer to where his kids are and that's his priority.
So we likely won't stay together forever and ever. But part of me is like, but if I ate meat, would you consider making things work? Whereas me being a vegetarian, he says, I look at my refrigerator.
I can't cook anything for you. We can't eat dinners together.
He doesn't want to cook something for someone if he's not going to eat it. Like he's not going to make me a vegetarian meal.
So is that more of a problem with the relationship? Yeah. And so it's kind of of double double-sided this particular relationship and just in general where i live it is so prominent why do you just change it now why do you live where you live out of curiosity well so yeah i i moved out west so i live in like the least populated state in one of the least populated counties.
So just my chances of love are slim.

How did you end up in Wyoming or Montana?

Yeah, Wyoming.

You nailed it.

I moved out here to work for a ranch a while back and then just loved it so much.

I stayed and love the community aspect.

There's so many amenities in terms of we have a really nice gym and library. There's access to the outdoors.
You love where you live, to be clear. I love where I live.
Yeah. And so kind of right now I feel stuck with a triangle of I can only choose two of the three things, either staying a vegetarian, staying where I live, or finding love, where if I want to find a long-term sustainable relationship and stay a vegetarian, I have to move elsewhere and I can't really get all three where I live.
It's funny because Natalie and I were in a meeting earlier today talking about something, but our relationships came up in general. And I talked about how dating Natalie is out of all the women I've dated, Natalie is a person that is for all our differences in personality of which there are many, partly because of just our personalities and there's our age difference, et cetera, et cetera.
We like a lot of the same things, shows we like to watch, foods we like to eat, things that we like to do. And that matters.
And I have had to realize like younger me, you know, 22 year old me was like, love is all you need. And it was like, I almost kind of got off on like how incompatible me and someone I thought was hot were.
And the idea that like, you know, if I loved him enough or I was willing to sacrifice enough that like I somehow got a, like a medal for being the most, I don't know, miserable, you know, love martyr, you know, in a way. And it's just like, it matters that that really matters in a relationship like the day-to-day to not have to compromise every goddamn day about what you do or what you eat or where you go or who you hang out with like relationships are hard enough so you know some of the small day-to-day things like you you want to make sure you're compatible on as many things as possible because there's you know relationships are hard i have dated a vegetarian and like you she was like a vegetarian her whole life she grew up on a farm you know and she loved animals and the idea of like eating like the baby cow was just like you know whatever um i did get her to try and meet at one point i don't know like after we broke up it was wow yeah anyways and see that's my thing where we're now in my life i don't really have a full-on reason not to eat meat whereas i mean i'm healthy i like my body where i'm kind of like if it ain't broke so i don't want to introduce a foreign object to my body and throw the system off but i understand like we're carnivores we're're supposed to eat meat.
My body would adapt, but I'm not... Yeah, I wouldn't start with a porterhouse steak.
Yeah, I would start light. Have you eaten fish at all? Everyone? No.
Nothing ever, ever. I'd start there.
Honestly, listen, if you decide to go down this route, I'm sure there's plenty of literature you can read and smart ways of doing it. And everybody has their own opinion on it.
Yeah. But I would go with the experts.
I would listen to the dietary experts. The person that's wanting to cook and break it for me.
So yeah. And that's the thing too, where my mental hurdle of, should I do this for this man in my life to see if things will work out better? Should I just do it just in general to take that off the plate within relationships? Or should I stick to my guns and just when I want to, it'll come.
Here's my opinion. Just my opinion.
You definitely shouldn't do it for a man. Yeah.
That's what I figured. And the reason is because one, you're dating a guy, you don't know where it's going to go.
You don't know if he's the person, yada, yada. You're not doing it for him, but you have noticed a repetitive problem.
You have chosen to live in this community. You've made this choice.
You moved to Wyoming. You fell in love with it.
You can go on and on about the things that you like. It makes you happy, right? And everything that, you know, life is full of sacrifices all the time.
So you're not doing it for a man or men in general, you're doing it for you, right? And you have to make that choice between like, what makes me the most happiest, right? I want to find love someday. I'm assuming that's true, right? Like, you know, you want to find love, you know, you have long-term relationship goals yeah and And ideally, you really love where you live.
And you recognize that where you live and the place that makes you happy in terms of location, there's one little hiccup. And that is a very rural place with a lot of hunting men who only eat meat.
And the environment in which you live in isn't conducive for a vegetarian diet. I mean, if you want to get all like really deep and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like back in like, you know, caveman days or whatever, like, you know, way back in the day, people adapted to their environments, right? People might have been like, you know, communities were like more carnivores because like the only place, you know, where they could eat was to hunt.
Some communities ate more fish, you know, plant-based or whatever because of because the soil was rich and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And on some level, even though it's 2025, that's where you have to adapt to the environment, right? And the environment that you've decided you want to live in is an environment that's very inconvenient for vegetarians.
Yeah. Even in social settings, not just romantic, it's such a big deal.
Anytime I'm hanging out with friends and I mean, food is just a central part of social gatherings and I don't even bring it up to people. I just like bring my own food or eat beforehand and I'm just there to socialize.
And all of a sudden it's like walking around with a scarlet letter of like, look at the vegetarian and that part's getting exhausting as well. No one likes someone who brings a tupperware to a party you know what i'm saying like my sister's a holistic nutritionist and like it's just yeah it's a whole thing i mean i'm joking but like yeah like it's just yeah it's true though and especially again where i am is just such an extreme extreme version of it where it's not just the gluten-free person or whatever.
It's the vegetarian in meat country. Yeah.
If you called me up, right? And you were like, I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I really like this guy.
I moved to Wyoming for college. I'm not staying here my whole life.
It's temporary. I'm definitely going to leave this place at some point.
I've been like, just ride it out, bring your Tupperware, date who you date, maybe it'll work out, it probably won't. You're probably not going to find your person in this place, but you want to stay in this place.
The only thing that sounds like you're certain of is that you love where you live and you want to stay here as far as you know. Yeah.
And for now, and I would be willing to consider moving at some point if it does seem like it's even still, like I said, I live in Wyoming, the least populated state, and I'm in one of the least populated counties. So just the odds of finding my person statistically are lower, no matter what, what things are out there.
So should I just move somewhere else and find someone and we always joke like import somebody to where I live now and come back to it? or should I just move somewhere else and find someone? And we always joke, like, import somebody to where I live now and come back to it? Or should I keep searching where I am? Well, I mean, yeah, you'd have to import a vegetarian, and that might be more difficult than the place that you live. I mean, listen, all jokes aside, like, I think...
And I don't even think I want to date a vegetarian either. Like, the men I'm attracted to and the general types of vegetarian men that are out there wouldn't even be my type.
Or should I change my type? Your type is your type, you know, to a certain degree. But yeah, there's exceptions to every rule.
And I think sometimes maybe as men get older, they might change their diet. You know, like I have a friend who he only eats fish.
He cut out red meat out of his diet. You know, he's still a man, you know, but like it's just more he's he's he's realized that this makes him feel better or whatever.
He, you know, it's a it's a it's a life choice. But yeah, listen, you can always go back to being a vegetarian.
I do. Listen, it's but based on your type, I guess what I'm saying is like, yeah, I mean, couples can do it.
Sure. But it's it sucks.
It sucks. I mean i mean every day now and i are like what do you want for dinner and the worst part of our day every day is deciding what we want for dinner even though we all like the same things and our biggest problem is like because we have like we love what we love and we have a somewhat limited palette and it's just like you know we we have like we're busy and it's just like can we let's just make what we know we will like instead of like making something new or whatever and so like every day it's like do we have tacos again or do we have kale salad again but like again it's already a difficult decision if every day it was like what do you want and what do i want and like again you do you feel less connected like i know it's it's not fun to date someone with a completely different diet it's just not it's just not and like you know what that's like it's not fun for you it's not fun to date someone with a completely different diet.
It's just not. You know what that's like.
It's not fun for you. It's not fun for them.
Yeah. And I can't blame someone for that.
I know how ridiculous it's going to sound, but to give you an idea of just my stubbornness and the fact that it has been my entire life, not just like 10 years, I've never used the bathroom on an airplane before ever in my life. And I have traveled all across the world.
And it's just like a stubbornness thing. I have had to pee on planes.
I know I should pee on a freaking airplane, but I was like, I've never done it. I don't want to do it.
So if I'm that stubborn about peeing on an airplane for something as big as being a vegetarian, my entire life, I feel like that's going to be a hard streak to break. And then look back thinking, I ate meat because of this for this person or whatever.
It's just going to be something I live with and think about for the rest of my life. But I also might feel like I have missed out on this for 27 years.
Yeah. This is a perspective thing.
You have to change your perspective. You said the word streak, which tells me that you remind me of the person like i bet there's a movie out there that everyone's seen that you haven't and you love fucking reminding people well i just don't really watch movies at all okay well but you get what i'm saying like there's you know you kind of you yeah you kind of like the narrative of having never eaten meat at some point you you like telling people you've never peed on a plane it's like your thing you know what i'm saying like yeah and if you really needed to you would you would pee on a plane or your bladder would explode so as much as you had to pee and as much as you held it like your life was never on the line and you just like sucked it up and you kind of like the narrative right so if you're gonna do this like who know what i can no one cares but you you know what know what I'm saying? Like no one cares.
Yeah. Anecdotally, it's been fun.
Well, if I eat meat, people will care. It'll be like a huge deal and a huge celebration.
That part is going to be a whole thing. You get what I'm saying? But your mental hurdle is like, it's the streak of I've never eaten meat.
And now I will no longer be able to say I've never eaten meat. Yeah.
Is that, and the moment that I do eat the meat will just be so prominent of I'm overthinking it and wanting it to be the right reason and not be like, I ate this for this guy and it didn't work out with him. I can't believe I did that.
Well, the reason is a community. Yeah.
And I allowed my friend to cook it for me, not my own father. Like, shouldn't he have the honor? But I'm just, because it's been 27 years of buildup, it's becoming a bigger deal to me than it probably should be, where I should just try it.
If I like it, great. If I don't, or should I force myself to eat it and like it to give me a chance at opening the doors to more eating options? Stop making it some sort of ceremony or a big deal.
If other people want to make it a big deal, let them make a big

deal. But it's not a rite of passage.
That'd be super fucking weird if, in my opinion, no offense, to have your dad cook your first meat meal as some sort of symbolic gesture. It's not that deep.
One day you decided to try meat. And if you decided to try it and you're like, this is fucking gross and disgusting.
And let's say you never have have meat again like you can decide internally to make that a big deal and make that a thing to yourself and be like i can't believe i tried meat and no you know like no one cares that is a narrative that you have held on to that is something that has made you feel special it's an ego-driven thought it doesn't do anything for you other than it gives you something to pine over and ruminate over and attach an identity to. You can find other identities.
No one cares but you, right? So you just need to let that shit go, really. Be pragmatic about this decision.
Again, it's not for another person. It doesn't have to be a ceremony and you can always stop

eating meat. But right now, the choice and decision is clear.
I love my community. As far

as I know, if all things being equal, I would love to invest in this place where I live and

build a life here. Yeah, there are limited men.
And so that might change where I live. And also

the diet is like, forget about men I date, just being involved and embracing this community

and then we'll see are limited men. And so that might change, you know, where I live.
And also like the diet is like, you know, forget about men I date, just like being involved and embracing this community, like as crazy as it sounds, like it's not very conducive for someone with a vegetarian diet. So I'm choosing this community over this personal thing that I have.
And I want to do that because I'm doing it for the community and I'm doing it for me. You're doing it for you at the end of the day.
At the end of the day, if you want to find love and you do it for a guy, you're doing it for you. Whether that works out with the guy or not, you didn't do it for them.
You did it because you want to be with them and you did it for you. That does make sense.
So I just don't know then where to start. And again, that's kind of me overthinking of it.
If I should- I think go pee on a plane well yeah that might be the first step break all the streaks um where yeah i should i just don't know where to start or who who and how to break it's not like it's something i can just do in my home because i don't know how to cook meat i don't even have meat in my refrigerator where it does need to involve another person. And so what person should that be? Where should I start? And I helped one of my friends hike out an elk that she shot again all back to the elk.
It's big hunting out here. I wouldn't start with elk.
Helped a friend hike out her elk. Huh? That would start with chicken.
Well, see, everybody has their opinion. So people out here say start with the elk.
Other people think chicken and then fish. And so I just feel connected to this elk that I helped her hike out of knowing where it came from, all that.
But there's so many types of meat out there. I don't know what to try.
And I don't want to go to McDonald's and try a chicken nugget for the first one. Yeah, I wouldn't do that either.
So it's where, yeah, where to start if I do decide to go this route. My opinion is I wouldn't ask just despite you doing this for your community i wouldn't ask the people in your community i get why they're they think elk right that's really part of their but like listen you could definitely enjoy you know try to eat some kind of meat and and and find a couple let's say it's chicken and fish and if all you ate was chicken and fish that makes it so much easier for anyone you date, even your elk eating boyfriend, because like I bet he likes chicken, right? And elk, I don't know, maybe it's a tasty meat.
I'm guessing it has a similar like consistency of venison, which is kind of like steak, whatever. But like, it's, you know, it's a reason why like most people aren't eating elk because it's like not the tastiest, you know, of the meat categories.
You know, maybe I'm speaking out of turn not to offend anyone in the Wyoming area. Yeah, careful.
I just make it easy on yourself, right? I would probably start with fish or chicken because it's like it's easier to digest. I'm guessing elk is a tougher meat, probably.
Again, I'm not the expert on meat, so probably. I don't know what it's going to do to my body and well my my girlfriend my ex-girlfriend who i made she didn't you know she tried processed sausage and she didn't explode so you'll be fine okay great but and then i don't know how i guess how long do you think i should give it a chance for is by i eat it i don't like it do i just keep keep eating it until i convince myself i like it smell of beet dut for you? Not much.
Because that's the thing. I'm not intrinsically like, oof, I wish I could have that.
Because if I did, I would have. Again, I don't have big enough reasons not to.
Have you ever tried bacon? Bacon obviously smells good. Oh yeah, I was going to say, you should try bacon.
Yeah, I haven't tried it, but obviously it always smells good. Most importantly, all you really need to do is from a digestive standpoint and just like a wellness standpoint, I would do some research.
And there's probably a lot of information out there because you're not the first person to go on this journey. What's the easiest path forward for your digestive system to incorporate protein into your diet for the very first time? And from there, experiment.
Go to a restaurant. Try something out.
Try some fish. Yeah.
And obviously, it's around me everywhere to just try it off of someone's plate. And I am going to a doctor in a couple weeks just to get normal blood tests and stuff done.
Or do you want to ask them, am I super deficient in something that you think meat would help supplement? Because again, on the the outside i feel i feel like i'm healthy but maybe i am missing certain things that would be helpful to have maybe but that to me that sounds like you're looking for another reason justification yes just you're doing it you're doing it for your community it's that like why isn't that enough for you okay because it's scary because i feel like i'm not doing it for myself I'm doing it for others and the peer pressure of others and not because I smell the hamburger and want the hamburger. Fine.
But again, I'm just, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like you really love where you live, right? Yes. And if you could make this place where you live work for the rest of your life, you would, you would, right? Yeah.
Right. And like, well, yeah, you're right.
That might change. But as you sit here today, you would, right? Yeah, definitely.
If you could find a good option, if you could find a life partner who also wanted to live here, you like this place. For sure.
Yeah. I think that's the missing piece is the partner and the person where I have most everything else I need and want where I am.
It's just finding that person. And I'm feeling like my vegetarianism and the place I live is making me more undateable and having these casual relationships with people where I just want to take the me being a vegetarian out of the equation.
Yeah. I mean, listen, like it's for you, it's fascinating just like story just because again, it really paints you as an outsider.
It really does. If you lived in LA, you wouldn't be dealing with this problem.
You'd fit right in. Yeah.
And that's the thing too. When I go other places, I'm like, oh, I don't have a scarlet letter on.
When I would go to Colorado, there's whole vegetarian only restaurants where I am amongst my people and can eat everything on the menu. Whereas where I'm choosing to live is no.
And that's what I'm saying. Own the decision.
Own it. I love this place.
I love living here. I really like it.
It's not perfect. If it was perfect, everyone would be a vegetarian that have vegetarian restaurants that be more men.
But despite it not being perfect, I really love it. And I want to make this place work.
How do I make this place work? All right. Well, you are doing it for you.
I have lived where I live live since i was 20 years old i've lived there for going on to eight years now where i really haven't in my chosen adult life well i've lived seasonally in other places but i've always been drawn back to this where i live now where i don't know if i should try living somewhere else to come back or if i should just again stick to my roots feel confident my decisions of living in this first place I ever found and just being lucky I found it so young. And then like you're saying, kind of adapt to the lifestyle that's there.
I think there's a huge difference between doing things for a man or a woman, depending on who you date and doing something for yourself because you want to find a person to spend your life with. And maybe you've recognized something that makes it harder for people to connect with you in general, right? Yeah.
This isn't a one-off situation where one guy really didn't like your vegetarian diet, right? This is a theme, not just for the men that you date, but the people you interact with, your community. It's something that is a huge inconvenience for you, your diet.
Yeah, for sure. Right? Right? So wouldn't it be for you? Yeah.
And that's why too, I was kind of thinking of rephrasing the question of, should I change being vegetarian for a man? Because I'm like, yeah, no, I shouldn't do that for a man, but for myself to have a chance at finding love and a better option, again, to take that out of the equation and to better connect with friends. Because they, even again, on the social friendship level, I have friends who gather for dinners and they had like wings and buns party and all these things that I'm good friends with them, but they don't invite me because I'm not going to eat their food.
So why would I go to the food central event where I'm like, I would still come, but I am the girl bringing a Tupperware or not eating. And so to be even more socially included and feeling welcome would also be nice.
Yeah. Yeah.
And again, that's why, you know, you're adapting to your environment, which everyone has to do. I've adapted.
It you know life is all about changing i do think you enjoy being different which is a fine quality to a certain extent but it sounds like to even a detriment like you like telling people you love telling people you've never peed on a plane it's like a fun anecdote you like sharing yeah at once so yeah. At once.
People's mind are blown, so. Yeah.
But at once, it was just like. But again, nobody cares.
No one cares. Exactly.
And at first, you did it because you had this weird phobia about germs or whatever, and it turned into a thing. And then you would tell people, and people would be like, no way, never, not once.
And they'd ask you a bunch of follow-up questions. You'd be like, nope, not even then.
And it made you feel like the center of attention for a period of time.

And you like that.

And that, again, is just an ego thing.

And you got to let that shit go.

And if the fact that you would be hanging on to that in lieu of feeling more involved in the community that you love and making you feel more a part of the place that you'd

like to build a life is a little nuts.

Yeah, I agree.

Pretty good psychoanalysis of myself, I would say. I'm here to help.
So yeah, take it slow. So again, you having your dad, that's doing it for yourself.
Go on your own journey. Talk to your doctor.
Talk to a couple of dieticianary experts. Read a a couple things online.
Do not ask men that you're dating or people in your community. You know, they're going to serve you elk.
If you want to eat elk for the first time, eat elk for the first time, but do it for yourself and do it by yourself. And then don't make some big announcement.
That maybe would be like a challenge for you to check your ego at the door and make sure that you're not doing it. I don't think I would tell anyone if I did it, or I would keep it under wraps for a while because I don't if it's not something I'm planning to keep doing, I want to know, it's going to be I like it and to be continued part of my diet.
I mean, maybe again, that's part of the ego thing of I don't want people to know I broke the streak or whatever. I just more don't want them to celebrate this big hoo-ha thing and everybody make it.
It's such a big deal that they finally won and made the 27-year-long vegetarian change teams. Yeah, whatever.
That's just people having fun, but you got to let that go. That's really your stuff.
Yeah. You've created too much of an identity around it.
My strong-headedness. Well, yeah.
I mean, it's more, you've created too much of an identity around it and identity that really hasn't gotten you anywhere. You know, certainly not with the place.
Well, because it's been an identity for so long and I've, I've made it work in so many places. I studied abroad in Africa.
I've, I've traveled all around and even in college, it's like, I have maintained this through my whole life in hard situations where, again, I think it's a stubbornness. It's hard, again, where I live, but why can't I keep making it work? But I think changing that perspective to more of a, it would be more to embrace my community than adapting for something or someone else or breaking the streak and all that.
And you can always go back. You can always go to those vegan

only restaurants in Colorado if you want to. You know what I'm saying? This is not some sort of

point of no return decision you're making. It's an arbitrary streak that you've added

unnecessary value to in your life. It's a mental hurdle.
And that's something you're willing to

consider for yourself to make some of your other goals in life more obtainable. Yeah, no, I agree.
I'd just be interested to see too what happens once I have the fork in front of my face where it's easy to talk about it. But then once I'm sitting down on whatever I choose to eat, I don't know if I'll have a visceral reaction all of a sudden be like, oh my gosh, I really actually don't want to do this.
Or if I'll be like, yeah, I'll see. I mean, I have to do it to see, I suppose.
I mean, interesting enough, and we have to go, but at one point, have you voiced like, oh, I'm really going to feel bad about like eating that pig or elk. I'm just saying the reason you started being a vegetarian in the first place was because of this love for animals.
And clearly mentally you've worked through that where like, I think you maybe just recognize that there's a way of doing it and a way of not doing it. And I'm sure if you do start eating meat, you'll probably want to source meat that comes from an ethical place or things like that.
But you have a new mental hurdle, right? So even the reason you became a vegetarian in the first place isn't the reason you're still a vegetarian today. And I think that's something to note.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I would still want to source it ethically. Again, I'm not going to go to McDonald's and have chicken nuggets and all that.
I don't think I'll ever necessarily get to that level maybe after years of eating more ethically sourced meat. But again, where I live, you can go to the grocery store and buy beef that was literally grown in the backyard and hunting and elk and all those things.
Most of the stuff where I live is locally and ethically sourced and that would be where i want to start i don't want i don't want the bacon that came from some nightmare slaughterhouses that we hear about exactly so yeah but i still i still don't know once that fork is in my mouth if i will all of a sudden be like oh no i do love animals as much as i did when i

was three years old and made this decision i'm sure you do you know but like you know but eating them doesn't make me love them any less correct i suppose correct all right well keep us posted we would all love to know if yeah you finally i will i will let you know once the the fork hits my mouth i suppose you know i think this is a really interesting moment for you. And I think there's a diets aside, there's, there's some like other things going on about yourself and why you see the world the way you do and why you make some of the decisions that like, I think something to reflect on, you know? Yeah, absolutely.
And I do appreciate your perspective of somebody not from my community where everyone in my community is just like, just eat it, just eat it. And it doesn't really see my perspective or again,

like this ego driven streak stuff where,

yeah,

I appreciate your perspective on,

on it from an outside party and a relationship expert,

I suppose.

I don't want to call myself an expert,

but hopefully you found the,

hopefully you find the advice helpful.

All right.

Yeah,

I absolutely did.

Awesome.

Thank you so much,

Nick.

Take care. Please keep us posted.
Yeah, I absolutely will. Take care.
Take care. Bye-bye.
Helix! Love talking about Helix. Love talking about my favorite mattress.
It's the greatest thing of all time. Get some of the best sleep you'll ever have with Helix mattress.
It's so easy to get the best mattress ever made. Just go to helixsleep.com, answer a couple of quick questions about your sleep preferences, and Helix will get you a mattress that feels like it's made just for you.
They have a lineup of 20 unique mattresses for all kinds of sleepers. Sleep hot, sleep cold, sleep on your side, big and tall sleepers, kid sleepers, doesn't matter.
Helix has a mattress for you. All you have to do is go to Helix, take a quick quiz to answer some of your sleeping preferences.
They will fit you with a mattress that is perfect for you. Now that I sleep on the Moonlight mattress, I took that quiz and have never been happier.
They also believe in the product and they give you a 100-night sleep trial and all their mattresses come with a 10 to 15-year warranty. I don't know if you're ever going to need that sleep trial because you're going to absolutely be obsessed with your Helix mattress.
I promise you that, but it's there if you need it for that peace of mind. If you have ever thought about getting a new mattress, upgrade your mattress.
If you've been sleeping on an old mattress for a long time, or maybe your back's been hurting and you're just like, people, you spend, I don't know what percentage of your life sleeping. Make sure you're enjoying it, man.
Enjoy that sleep that you need with a Helix mattress. I mean, what are you guys doing? For the March Madness sale, Helix is exclusively offering our listeners their best available offer.
Go to helixsleep.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Helix is offering 25% off.
That's HelixSleep.com slash V-I-A-L-L for 25% off. Again, HelixSleep.com slash V-I-A-L-L.
The new year is a great time to reevaluate financial goals, not just for yourself, but for your kids. Now is the perfect time to make sure your kids are on a path toward a solid financial future.
A kids investment account from Fabric by Gerber Life is quick and simple to set up and lets you invest in their future now for education, big milestones, and more. Fabric by Gerber Life was designed by parents for parents to make it easy to plan and manage your family's financial path.
With a kid investment account from Fabric, you can start investing in your child's future today. It's all online and setting up an account can take you just five minutes.
Then you can manage your child's account and monitor their investments right from your phone. Funds can be used for nearly anything benefiting your child from tuition to tutors to math to music classes.
And when they're adults and out on their own, they can use the funds for anything they need. Start with just $20 with no contribution limits, tax advantages, and your funds are SIPC-insured up to $500,000, plus no commission fees and just a low flat monthly maintenance fee.
Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Start investing in your child today at meetfabric.com slash V-I-A-L-L.
That's meetfabric.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That's M-E-E-T-F-A-B-R-I-C dot com slash V-I-A-L-L.
This is a pay promotion by Fabric

UGMA product and not for investment advisory services. Portfolio managed by Fort Washington

Investment Advisors, Incorporated custodial services provided by Apex Clear Incorporation.

All investing is subject to risk. Terms apply.
Learn more at meetfabric.com.

How's it going? Good. How are you? I'm Lauren.
I'm 26. I'm Jim and I'm also 26.

And we want to tell our friend that we don't want to hang out with him anymore. Okay.
All right. Who's, are you guys a couple? Yes.
We're engaged. Okay.
Congratulations. And Jim, is this your, is it like your, how do you guys know this person? Yeah.
I guess he was connected to me originally. So I guess I could take the context from the top.
We knew him in college. He was kind of a fringe part of our college friend group.

For example, I lived in a house with eight guys. However, he wasn't in the house group chat,

for example. However, he was in a different group chat with about 20 people.
So a little bit on the

fringe. Sometimes we asked him to hang out out of pity.
Sometimes he'd ask us to hang out a lot. However, a lot of people in the group didn't like hanging out with him because he would talk about himself a lot.
He would talk about going to law school all the time. For example, he posted all of his acceptance letters in the 20-person group chat that I mentioned before.
He talked about scholarship money, his prestigious internship, et cetera, et cetera. So he got on our nerves a lot, but we often hung out with him because we felt bad that he didn't have many other friends to hang out with, kind of making a long story short there.
We'll fast forward a little bit to after graduation. We both, my fiance and I moved to a big city after school and he happened to be

there and we connected up with him and things were a bit different this time. He had a girlfriend

who had the same credentials that he had. She went to the same law school as he did and she

ended up working at the same firm. So we ended up liking hanging out with him because we thought

she toned him down a lot. She would call him out if he started talking about law too much.
And she'd say like, hey, guys, or hey, Max, which is his fake name. No one cares.
So however, over the last summer, things with that relationship started to become a little rocky. And he started to hang out with us a lot more, reminding us of what happened in college.
Really, he started to ask us to hang out every week. And we really don't have that kind of time or energy to be able to be that type of person for him.
Last fall, so we follow our school's football team very closely, as does he, and we would go to the bar to watch the game. And he knew that.
So we would almost every week go to the bar and watch the game with him. And he has seemed to think that after the football season that this weekly hangout can continue.
and we don't really know how to tell him that we hung out with him every week

because we made time for the football game rather than for himself. And I guess I would wrap up with just a couple examples of what we're dealing with.
One, he makes reservations for us without us telling him that we could actually hang out on that day or go. A different example was we thought he genuinely once tried to trick us into hanging out with both Friday and Saturday, that, no, I'm not going to be in town Saturday.
And then I said at the beginning, you know, I really think he is going to be in town Saturday. I don't want to hang out Friday.
And then magically, he was, in fact, in town Saturday and we saw him on Saturday. So yeah, that's the context.
And we don't necessarily want to break up with him as a friend. However, we just are tired of saying no all the time.
We're tired of making up excuses. And then we also don't want to just hang out with him basically out of charity either.
So yeah, this is kind of our dilemma. If I'm understanding your, your goal, like you said, is to not necessarily break up with them if you didn't have to, but to try to get through to him and communicate to him the way he is, makes it difficult to have a relationship with him.
And you're hoping to do that in a way that A, he can receive it and B, you know, not, not break his heart or hurt his feelings or something. It just constantly toes the line of, we hang out with him because we feel so bad for him.
You know, we may not want to, and like, we don't hate him. It's just that we feel so bad.
So we agreed to have plans with him. But then, you know, it's like every single week, it's not an exaggeration.
Like, I don't see my parents that often is he no longer with this girl right now they broke up yeah what does this guy have going for him and what does he not have going for him he has stable employment he has a dog um we live in a big city so there's a lot going on however we don't think he has many other friends to hang out with he doesn't have many other friends from college to hang out with from grad school from high school to hang out with that's why i think he keeps coming back to us and it's a really big role for us does he when you're with him does he constantly mostly talk about himself yeah. He's fallen back into that habit.
And usually complaining about how he's a victim of various circumstances? A mixture of complaining about stuff, but also just kind of flexing the lawyer-ness on us. Of all these cases that he's worked on, or look how many hours I worked this past week.
And we heard from a different friend who's also a lawyer and we told them the firm, we have no idea about the prestige of law firms. And we thought he worked at this top-notch firm, but apparently it's pretty solidly mid-tier.
So I guess that's another example. Yeah.
I mean, it sounds like someone who for reason, lacks some confidence in himself.

And that has turned into him kind of being obnoxious.

It's funny because the way you're describing this friend, someone I know popped into my mind.

I guess I would call him a friend.

I don't spend a lot of time with this person anymore uh they're also a lawyer i don't know if that's a coincidence or not uh this particular friend is like a great looking guy too right he's like he's six two great head of hair just i mean he's hot he's he's a hottie he's insufferable to be around he's this absolutely he's an absolute nightmare and and he's really been unlucky in love and the truth is the problem he's the problem he is definitely the problem you know and i don't know if i haven't talked to him in a while i don't know how self-aware he is but like he has pushed a lot of people away just because like his own narcissism in a way like you know he's justifies complaining or talking about himself either because like he feels like he's a victim of some kind of mistreatment or yada yada yada or or you know he's projecting you know he doesn't feel like he's getting enough recognition from a circle of influence so he's constantly like talking about his accolades because no no you know it's like it's coming a place, but like this particular person, like I know a lot of people just were not able to get through this guy. And, you know, as a result, it's life's been harder on him.
Have you guys ever like try to sit them down friend to friend and level with them? Not directly. No, some indirect messaging doesn't seem to work.
So I guess there's another lawyer that we're friends with and we say, hi, hey, filling girl's name that I can't think of. Why don't we hear about your job? And I guess a subtle joke doesn't really land.
So we, I think internally are probably in the place where, yeah, a more direct conversation is probably in store because more subtle ways of doing so or trying to get him to take a hand is probably not going to work at this point. If he hasn't taken a hand, he's not going to take a hand.
Is also just not wanting to like completely break up with him because we do think that he's so alone is just like not like breaking his heart totally you know like i said it just just keeps towing the line of like we feel so bad for him but we know we need to do this well i mean as i see it you could break up with them or you can have some kind of like intervention in a way it may ultimately lead to a breakup yeah but i think right now you guys are you guys are like you feel a little bit of this guilt you feel a little bit of this loyalty to him despite like you're really not loving his company you just like you've you've been able to empathize with the fact that like clearly this guy is lacking some sort of social skills for whatever reason that like you know yeah you feel for the guy right but like these are his problems and you know clearly he's smart enough he's a lawyer right like he's not incapable of figuring this out he just hasn't you know i don't know either someone hasn't gotten through to him you know i don't know about his childhood or what his high school life was like or i don't know but like he's got a personality trait that rubs people the wrong way and good on you guys that you've been able to stick it out longer than most people have for whatever reason yeah i think honestly um it's important to note that the law school he went to is in our current city too so like you don't have any law school friends or you know you went to this big high school also and you don't know anybody from there that currently lives in our city. It just kind of all adds up.
He pushes people away, right? Yeah. What you guys have going for you in terms of if you ever go down the quote-unquote intervention route, so to speak, and maybe that's a heavy word, but just kind of leveling with it.
Being direct, right? Is that you two are an engaged couple and i don't expect someone like him to like recognize that but maybe even pointing it out where one like as an engaged couple like you guys need to prioritize each other quality time yeah you guys are still really young so like obviously a lot of engaged couples in your space are still going out with their friends and still doing their thing, but you kind of have like an excuse in a way that like, sometimes you're not looking for the third wheel, you know, you're just looking to like be with each other and, and anyone, anyone should kind of acknowledge or recognize that. Right.
So you kind of have a little bit of a built in excuse there too, when you don't want to things if i were you i would i would try to talk to the guy yeah you know and just level with them and just say matt you know we got to talk and you know for one and and like with like everything else it's just like you gotta lead with the love you know like there's no good way of starting this but you you're just like, Hey, listen, like one, sometimes we feel bad that like we are unavailable when you want to hang out for one, obviously we're engaged and like, we're just, sometimes we just prefer to be with each other and not, and no one else. It's not a you versus anyone else.
It's just like, we want to be alone. But like, listen, like as your friends, like we just wanted to point, I mean, it's a tough conversation.
He's probably not going to receive it. Well, I don't know.
But like the hope, the hope is, is that like you're able to like say something where even if he doesn't take it all that well, that like he wants to do something about it. I don't know.
Like I've had to develop better skills in my life. You know, like there have been periods of my time where I've been so caught up in my own bullshit that people didn't enjoy my company i was only talking about me you know whether it was my heartbreak or this or that and i think we all go through periods of being a little self-centered and kind of in our own shit sometimes and sometimes we need a wake-up call sometimes it needs a friend being like you've been kind of a dick lately His problem is that you've never known this guy to not be this kind of obnoxious person.
That's the problem. It's been going on for a very long time.
You'd think that it would grow out of it, but it's probably part of the time in his life right now going through a breakup. But the problem is that we've seen this pattern before and that this isn't just a one-time thing you'll get through it but you'll get through with this it's oh we think this is who he actually is and and that is who like if and when you say that what do you mean like who is he i guess just kind of like what we talked about where when he was with his girlfriend we felt like she toned

him down a lot right because she you know could also say the same things to us about being a lawyer and blah blah blah but you know she would call him out and like uh he didn't feel like i guess as prestigious you know when there was another lawyer sitting next to him in the room but like now when it's just him like then he can just you know lab about his lawyerness to us or like other narcissistic things.

Have you ever said,

you know, just like,

we don't care? Occasionally. Yeah.
I think actually, you know, hopefully like I'm working on this big case and we're like, cool, you know, but I think it just flies right over his head. Or maybe he takes it as a joke, but we 90 mean it seriously yeah i mean he he clearly is lacking validation in his life that is for sure yeah he it always seems like he's trying to prove something and i feel like he's trying to prove himself through his career i guess yeah is he good looking he's short but i wouldn't say he's bad looking yeah he's definitely not bad looking.
Okay. But he's shorter.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean,

listen,

it's a tough situation you're in but you kind of have nothing to lose because like here the way i see it is like eventually well at this point he's not changing right he's in his mid-20s you as long as you've known him he's always been this way so short So short of something happening, he's going to be like this. And you two seem like you're at the end of your rope.
And despite feeling bad, eventually you're just going to slowly distance yourself from him and break up with him, right? So the way you should look at it is you kind of have nothing to lose. And you can try to go in there with love and maybe you know lauren you can from a woman's standpoint try to play a similar role like like a

sister in a way that like his girlfriend did be like hey listen we loved jenny but you pushed her

away man like you know you just like listen you have to create space for other people like when

was the last time you asked us about our days or our jobs like you are only talking about yourself

Thank you. And whether it's hanging out with us or finding you know all your other friends or you know your next girlfriend you know we want you to show them all your great qualities you know um you you if you're going to have this intervention you have to be prepared to come with some compliments and some things that like are to make him feel good about himself.
And you're going to want him to try to say, yeah, I need to allow people to see these things in me rather than tell them and show them. And you could be like, we want to help you.
We're friends of yours. We see the good in you.
We can't listen. Sometimes we need you to understand that like we only want to be with each other and that includes not being with you or anyone else but like something and say like sometimes we feel like you're you've become like our little like third wheel and in a way we love you you're you're you know i'd be careful calling him family um but yeah but yeah but like we can't always be there for you and almost try to help them that way where you're coming from a place of love and then you hit them with some hard truths.
That's it. I mean, it's an uphill battle because you are just friends.
You're not a girlfriend. You're not a family member.
You're not even that close. You're just the closest people he has because you guys have the biggest hearts and you haven't had the hearts to break up with them yet.
Yeah. I would also say some happenstance that we happen to be living near in the same city, which is where we went to school.
So yeah, but you're right. We could have broken up with him by now, but it's hard because we feel bad for him.
Yeah. You got to stop with the press passive aggressiveness and you got to stop with like hoping he picks up on the jokes and you got to hope he picks up on the cues.
He, he clearly doesn't, he needs like he, what he picked, he does. He is giving you an example of what he picks up on.
And that is direct feedback from a girlfriend that says, Hey, stop it. No one cares.
And at least there's hope there's hope that he has at least in those moments, it sounds like like he has responded well. I'm guessing part of the reason they broke up is that she got tired of having to constantly remind him to be human.
And it got exhausting, which is a shame. At some point, he needs to recognize the truth that he has a way of pushing people away.
And I think just like going back to how he said, this has been an ongoing thing for, you know, over five years, five to 10 years now is just that because he didn't really have that group of friends, you know, in college or maybe ever, I feel like he kind of thinks that like now we can have this big college group friend and like, you know, those people that see each other every day. And like, that's just like not normal in adult life.
for to engage couples yeah it would be normal if you could find like four other bros who are also single and like who also wanted to go out but like he he's obnoxious you know he needs to care more about other people he needs to like literally you should be like we're here for you to practice on but like seriously he needs to never like stop talking about

yourself around us.

Let people ask you.

No one asks you about you because you never give them a chance.

You just come in guns a blazing, assuming they want to know about like mundane things in your life.

We listen, everyone, we all have mundane things in our life.

You know, I'm not saying this to make you feel bad but like you it's just exhausting what you guys have going for you is i doubt you're the first people to bring this up but maybe at some point it'll hit home i don't know i also think this is just an important conversation to have with him because eventually we're going to have to break the news that he's not invited to Jim's bachelor party. Yeah.
That'll be tough. Yeah.
It will be coming at some point, but yeah, there's no way he can come. I don't think.
I mean, I, I'm not surprised, but just out of curiosity, when you say there's no way, why? Cause he like, he would be that much crazy. I don't want him.
I don't want to be driven crazy. I'm a on my bachelor party it's this is one of my times i can be selfish yeah well that's a good answer you just gotta level with him man the worst thing that can happen it's it's a really awkward difficult conversation that ends with a lot of hostility from his end but like if you lead with love if you come in you know knowing that you have to like acknowledge his good qualities and find his good qualities.
Like my one friend, you know, I mentioned like he is a loyal guy. He would always like have like the back of his friends and things like that.
He gives back in the world, but like he is insufferable to be around because it's always about his insecurities and it's always about like him. it's always a weird thing because he's not the most cocky guy he's actually a really insecure guy which is weird because he's also like this like if you saw a picture of him and you heard about his job you'd be like here's this like you know lawyer who does very well for himself financially and he's a great looking guy and he's just an absolute fucking mess as a human being you know um because he just put he's just obnoxious because he just is it's always about him a point that you brought up earlier that's sticking with me is that in the end we have nothing to lose yeah you don't we lose him as a friend i guess which is not something i don't think that we're going to really miss that companionship.
However, I think it will stick with us in terms of feeling bad for him. But, oh, another question I have is, I think it seems like he needs to get help for himself.
And we're talking like professional help or therapist. Is that a conversation that we can start or is that an out of bounds conversation? No, I don't think itof-bounds.
I mean, I don't know how he's going to receive it. And I think you have to word it carefully.
Like, hey, we think you need therapy. Do you guys go to therapy out of curiosity? Either of you? Are you have? I do, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I would start there.
It's been successful. He would say, listen, that's the easiest way to get through to someone is to try to connect with them.

And that is like, I hit a point in my life where I felt like I was stuck. And ultimately, I think that's where people go and get therapy because they aren't able to resolve these issues on their own or by talking to friends or whatever.

And they feel stuck.

And they're hoping like some third party professional person who can just talk through some things and offer a new line of perspective, which is why like therapist or like say someone like myself i'm not a therapist but like i'm an objective person who won't project onto you guys and that's what friends do friends just project you know friends like don't even realize when they're offering advice they're just really offering the things that they would really want to hear from themselves and and since you're so connected it's often you know it's it's it mud, right? So yeah, I think it's absolutely something friends could acknowledge, but it just has to come from a, I think you need, not from, I think you need therapy, but this is something that really, really helped me when I felt very stuck, when I was having a hard time connecting with people or even connecting to Lauren or whatever, you can make up whatever you want. Sometimes we feel like you push us away.
If we're being honest, one, we need you to understand that as an engaged couple, we're just not going to want to hang out with anyone but each other. And two, it does seem like sometimes that doesn't register with you.
And I think that's something you need to think of. That's a problem.
You need to recognize that as to recognize that as couples, like they might want to spend their own time and like they don't have space for you. But like, listen, like we've seen you push other people away and it's a real shame because like you do have a lot of nice qualities, but like you really make situations often about you.
And I don't know where this comes from, but I found for myself that therapy really helped me unpack some stuff and it allowed me to get things off my chest that like honestly like i usually would do with my friends and i stopped doing that with people who i didn't need to you know do it with and like maybe that's something you could look into you know as long as you're coming from a place of love you guys have nothing to lose right yeah don't be mean-spirited don't say things because you know you're they're gonna hurt his feelings he might say things that hurt your feelings too and that's where you have to like bite that tongue anticipate it because you're gonna you're gonna hurt his feelings right and hurt people hurt people so like you know you have to be prepared for that and not lower yourself to his level and just say listen man we're only saying this because you know we see the the good in you and the potential and we want you to be happy. And you were happier when you were with, what's her name? And I don't know what happened, but do you remember all those times where she would call you out? We agreed with her, and you were more fun to hang out with.
He's going to react a certain way. And that it's not really a you problem.
You know, and the hope is he will reflect. His feelings will calm down and he'll have to look in the mirror and ask himself, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? And happiness is listening to people who took the time to give him a little criticism that when he like thinks back about what that criticism was, it probably isn't the first time he heard it.
They weren spirited even though it felt mean in the time and that i don't know maybe i should look in to get some therapy and and figure this shit out because i'm tired of feeling lonely you know definitely but it's it's really up to him but like yeah you have nothing to lose and like where you can feel better about this decision is most people could have done what you're doing right now and they just chose to quit on them. That's true.
This is kind of where you guys are at. When's the bachelor party? Not until next spring.
We're not getting married until June next spring. You've got some time.
Do it sooner than later. Yeah, the sooner the better.
I wish I could figure figure out like a good opener for you guys yeah i think we'll have to probably brainstorm that ourselves also a problem a little problem with that kind of is we mostly hang out with him at bars and restaurants and that's kind of an awkward place to do that we don't usually go to each other's apartments. So I feel like...
Are you expecting shouting? Shouting?

No. and that's kind of an awkward place to do that.
We don't usually go to each other's apartments. So I feel like...

Are you expecting shouting?

Shouting?

No, I guess what I'm associating

going to a bar with sports and beer and TVs

is something a little more laid back, relaxed,

or we're just trying to enjoy ourselves.

So yeah, I guess that shouldn't be an inhibitor,

especially if that's the only context that we do see him yeah i would definitely like yeah invite him to an uh you know it doesn't have to be where you know just be like hey like it sounds like he'll be down to hang out with you guys so i'd be like you know you're gonna catch him no matter what um but it's like hey man or maybe just wait till he asks you to hang out again yeah i would just say hey listen there's something we want to talk to you about we we want you to work on something you know and maybe i would use the ex-girlfriend as a an opener in a way where it's just like you you do you do you maybe ask him like do you think you sometimes push people away yeah that's fair i mean like i said he um you know his law school was in our city and i i've thought about it to myself before just asking like, hey, do you ever still hang out with people from law school?

Well, don't be passive aggressive. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, there's a difference between like, hey, you know, why don't you have friends, which feels a little judgy versus like, hey, have you thought about the fact that like, you know, that sometimes you push people away? That's a very direct question.
It's very specific. It's to the point.
It's not a trick question. It's just like, and you might be like, well, what do you mean? Just be like, well, and don't be passive.
It's like you, you know, and if he plays coy, I would just be like, well, you do sometimes. Yeah.
I have a question. Have you, with your hot lawyer friend, did you ever have a conversation like this with him or did things kind of just fizzle out? It just kind of fizzled out, but because he was really, he was never like that close of a friend.
He was more of an acquaintance. It never got to that point where like, put it this way, if I were in your shoes with him, I would say I would have said something.
Yeah. It never got never got to that point but i just it fizzled out organically and we were never that close you know so like but you know if i thought you guys kind of found yourself in the situation because like you moved to a city where he was you find out you he moved you moved there and you're like sure let's hang out and then he just kind of like latched on where where he didn't latch on to me so to speak but i definitely would have said if i were if i were in your boat i would i would say something and you'll feel good you if you come from a place of love and you come from like you you because you guys do it's clear you want to help him out you guys could just you could ghost him that's an option right like you know that yeah you could find a different place to watch the games it's a big enough city that if you really like wanted to avoid him you could and he would eventually get the hint and it would break your heart but like whatever but like you don't want to do that and that's because you're you know you care about him in a weird obnoxious way having the mindset that we're trying to help him the whole time yeah is probably the way to go and if we're trying go backwards from we're trying to help him, then we can find a way to word this, to bring it out to him in a way that he can receive it.
The way he receives it, though, is just out of our control. You're right.
It is. Hopefully, he gets to a place where he can just reflect.
Like a girlfriend, you can be like, I can remind you when you're doing it you know like it's like yeah you know he's gotta wanna yeah i would be curious when you ask him if that what do you i'm curious what he has to say has he ever demonstrated any self-awareness at all i think that answer that answers your question yeah i don't can't think of a time so well that might that might be the harshest thing you guys have to point out yeah which is like clearly you're smart you're a lawyer but you you know sometimes you you lack self-awareness in the form of the fact that like you were you almost exclusively only talk about yourself and that's not attractive to anyone. And it definitely isn't attractive to you because like, you're, you're only talking about yourself.
So like, God forbid, someone talks about what they got going on. You've never shown an interest.
You don't even ask us about what, and ask them like, like, are there things about in your guys' life that he should be aware of that, you he has no idea well i think a good example is that

we actually are having an engagement party this weekend and last week he asked to hang out on that day which he's already invited to it so he just forgot that our engagement party is on friday but like wants to hang out with us even though he is invited yeah wow you know so maybe point that out you're just yeah you're you know it's like listen we love you but like you're you're you're just you're very self-centered it'll blow his mind because he probably thinks no one cares about him or whatever you know but like yeah you you gotta work on that man you know yeah but yeah it's tough love and he needs this from somebody so you definitely should feel good about your willingness to you're right he does need it i'm not sure if anyone has ever done this and if he gets really mad like let's assume he gets really mad follow up too like let's say you meet at the bar he takes it really poorly let's say he even storms out he's like fuck you guys or whatever i don't know like let's say it's that crazy i would i would text him something like hey man like i know that was like hard to hear but truly like we just think you you have a lot of potential as a friend and we've seen you drive people away and sometimes to be totally honest as much as you know we care about you as a person you push us away we see your potential so like we've all been there before. We've all been in our own bullshit, but you have some things you need to work on.
And we just wanted to bring it to your attention and hopefully you're willing to want to work on it because we see your potential. If you can communicate that you believe in him as a person, I think it will go a long way because a lot of his insecurities come

from a place of him thinking no one believes in him. And the reason why he constantly talks about

himself is because he's not getting that validation outside and anywhere else. His problem now is he

doesn't realize he doesn't even give people a fucking chance to give a shit about him

because he's like so quick to like just throw it out there. But like.
And this is where the therapy can come in.

At some point when he was a little kid, this all started happening.

Maybe even high school.

I don't know.

Maybe when everyone else hit a growth spurt, he didn't.

And this is his...

I don't know.

Maybe his dad was a dick to him.

I don't fucking know.

But something happened way back when.

And it started this cycle.

And he's become this kind of insufferable person. yeah lead with love as much as you can yeah so like love criticism love criticism you know yeah lots of takeaway yeah as long as you're not assholes about it because that's the thing most people get to the point where they're just like so fucking tired of it and then all of a sudden you're out at the bar and then someone snaps and you're like, why are you such a fucking prick? You know, like why, you know, like you're just a fucking dick, you know? And then he storms off, you know, and then it just becomes like awkward.
So this is you guys maturing and this is you guys trying to do an adult thing and communicating. And honestly, it's good fucking practice.
At some point, the two of you are going to be disconnected in your relationship. And one of you is going to have to sit down with the other person and be like, ah, you know, like, and you're going to have to share some hard truths with each other or your children, you know, whenever that happens for you guys or a family member, like this won't be the last time that you have to have a difficult conversation with a friend or a colleague or an acquaintance, knowing that they're not to receive it that well and like this is good practice it's a good takeaway as well and you really have nothing to lose i'll definitely be thinking of that going in and and you do have something to gain right like awesome like worst case scenario isn't the worst case worst case scenario is you're honest with him he really pisses him off he fires you guys his friend and you don't feel as bad as you would because like hey you tried yeah you'd be like i try you know like we really try with him we really came into this with the best intentions and we led with love and yeah we said some like harsh things but like we tried where other people just quit on him we tried and he still pushed us away and now i don't have to worry about uninviting him to my bachelor party and he's not going to show up because he's so mad at us for being honest that like we don't have to worry about it so like then that will solve your it'll solve your problem yeah and you will have less guilt because you tried so no that's definitely a good point all right well keep us posted we would love to know how this is all this all goes down yeah yeah we'll send a follow-up all right all right we appreciate it

lead with love you know i would definitely like think about what you can compliment him on because this is this is definitely a person who who for whatever reason is very much starving of people believing in him and and and validation and feeling good about himself it's like no one hung his report card on the fridge.

And that's why he needs... validation and feeling good about himself it's like no one like hung his like report card on

the fridge you know um and that's why he needs to like amplify the law firm he works at or whatever

you know it's it's coming from it's coming from a place of insecurity all right well thank you

all right well take care keep us posted thank Thank you. All right.
Bye. Take care, guys.
Bye. Bye.
Safe on family favorites at Safeway. This week at Safeway, get four to six ounce Yoplait yogurt or 5.6 ounce protein yogurt for the member price of just 39 cents each when you buy 10.

Plus, get 2-pound containers of strawberries for the member price of $4.97 each.

Also, this week at Safeway, get 6-8 ounce Lucerne shredded, sliced, or chunk cheese for $1.97 each with digital coupon limit for items.

Visit Safeway.com or head in store for more deals.