E897 Ask Nick - Am I A Nag?

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Speaker 5 How's it going? Good. My name is Casey.
I'm 29, and my question is, should I break up with my boyfriend because he only wants to have sex on the weekends?

Speaker 2 Okay. Is that like a hard and fast rule, or is that like something that it's just kind of organically started happening?

Speaker 5 I mean, we've been dating for five years and there's gone like on and off fluctuations of the relationship in our sex life, but he's very like, I guess I wouldn't say it's a rule, but he's made it known that he's disinterested in sex on weekdays.

Speaker 2 Okay. And how serious are you considering breaking up with him over this?

Speaker 5 Well, I guess there's been a development since I wrote in and we kind of did have a discussion where it's basically been ended, but it's kind of also not been ended at the same time because we're still living together.

Speaker 5 So I guess kind of part two of my question was, am I making the right decision? And my plan is to move across the country back home with my family. Okay.

Speaker 2 So you guys are, as far as you know, kind of broken up.

Speaker 2 You live together, but like you guys said a minimum acknowledge that there's a problem for you and he didn't do enough to fight for the relationship basically. Correct.

Speaker 5 I was kind of like sitting with with these feelings and then we ended up getting into a huge argument a few weeks back.

Speaker 5 And I ended up like in that same argument sharing my feelings about this concern as well as several other concerns that I had in the relationship and decided to come to an end, but not immediately because I'll be still be staying for a while.

Speaker 5 in the home. It's his house.
And we weren't breaking up because of like immediate reasons. A lot of it included there's a lot of other things like wanting a family in my future, etc.

Speaker 2 He doesn't?

Speaker 5 No.

Speaker 5 He's 44.

Speaker 5 So he's decided that he's too old for kids and he's just totally disinterested in that and not willing to entertain the conversation.

Speaker 2 Okay. So would you say, I mean, all jokes.
That's where we're at. Yeah, all jokes aside.
I mean, like, how much of this breakup is centered around a lack of sex versus a myriad of other things?

Speaker 2 Like, for example, you want to have a family someday. And according to him, it's a non-negotiable that he doesn't.

Speaker 5 The sex life is a big thing. It's sex life plus intimacy.
Why I say that is because, like, I think if things were better on that front

Speaker 5 and I was being more fulfilled in that aspect and in our relationship, I'd be willing to compromise on some things.

Speaker 5 My brother and sister-in-law, they just had their first baby and she's turning one soon.

Speaker 5 So my big thing is like, I'm not going to get to be a part of that life because I live on the opposite side of the country. And then I'm also not going to get to be a mom.

Speaker 5 So when I'm not feeling fulfilled in that aspect of my life sexually and in our relationship and different things like that, it feels more like a big thing to me to be missing out on those other things.

Speaker 5 Whereas if it was great, maybe I'd be more willing to compromise.

Speaker 2 I mean, that makes sense. What else is going on in your relationship that's making you consider leaving?

Speaker 5 Well, I mean, the big thing is intimacy.

Speaker 5 Basically, we don't ever really kiss or cuddle or like anything like that. Sex life can be, like I was talking about, pretty vanilla.

Speaker 5 It's not a lot of like spontaneity. Really, only the times sex happens for us is like two o'clock in the morning when he's drunk and I'm not into it because it's not really romantic to me.
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 All right. So it sounds like sex is very much on his terms.
And those terms are, like you said, are often at a time where you're not interested.

Speaker 2 And I'm, you know, and then you mentioned intimacy, kissing, holding hands, touching, things like that.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think every guy on some level, there's room for improvement when it comes to those types of little things.

Speaker 5 But I guess my question to you is, is he the type of partner that, you know, occasionally needs to be reminded, but when you are, when he is reminded, acknowledges that like he can do better or that's something that's important in the relationship or is he scoffing and blowing you off or making you feel like a nag or stupid for even bringing it up and asking which which is more reflective of him he definitely says in conversation like when we're having just normal conversation it's something that he can do he doesn't know why he doesn't give it to me and it's a simple and easy thing to ask for but as i mentioned earlier um we did get into a big blow-up fight where it's happened maybe like four or five times in our five-year relationship where he's gotten like super verbally aggressive with me and he was totally like super awful in that argument and said something along the lines of that because I'm young and inexperienced.

Speaker 5 I have nothing to reference it to. And the amount of affection that he gives me is completely and totally normal.
And then I'll find that with any other guy that I'm ever with. So

Speaker 5 that kind of soured me towards the future as well.

Speaker 2 That would make sense. I mean, it's interesting how he felt comfortable speaking for every man ever in any type of relationship.
But

Speaker 2 to me, that's just like that's just a reaction to feeling defensive on his part. Not in any way excusing anything he said, but I'm guessing that's where it comes from.

Speaker 2 And I'm assuming you know that that's not the case or true.

Speaker 5 He says I'm young and inexperienced, but he's probably like my fourth serious boyfriend. So I've been in relationship with him.

Speaker 2 You're 29 years old.

Speaker 2 You're not 17.

Speaker 2 It's also like a weird thing for him to say, given like you are his girlfriend.

Speaker 2 You know, I couldn't imagine at this stage for me to tell my wife, who's three years younger than you, and I'm the same age as your boyfriend, to talk about her inexperience or her youth at this stage of our relationship.

Speaker 2 It's more a reflection of him than it is of you, you know, because that's basically, it's just like, well, why are you dating? I would say like, why are you dating this person?

Speaker 2 You really think she's that young and inexperienced? You've been A, with her for five years and B, she's 29. And so is that what you you prefer, young and inexperienced?

Speaker 2 Or is like, is your reason for dating this younger person is because despite her age, you were surprised by like just how much you guys had in common or how much you guys enjoyed each other's company or just how much you wanted similar things and yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2 That comment is very much to me a reflection of him and not you. It's just a projection of, you know, his point of view and.
doesn't really speak to anything about you.

Speaker 5 No, I know.

Speaker 5 I think like part of it is we did have a lot of things in common, but I have heard things from his family and then just noticed about him in general that he does kind of like to date people more on the side where he can shape and mold them into more of a person that suits his lifestyle better into where he doesn't really have to change at all.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, how's that worked out for him so far?

Speaker 5 He's been cheated on by like all of his past girlfriends. And I think he takes a lot of that out on me as far as like commitment-wise.
Again, we've been dating for five years.

Speaker 5 And another thing, he hasn't asked me to get married and that's something that I want and doesn't seem like something in his future.

Speaker 2 Yeah, listen, I'm not saying it's his fault for being cheated on, you know, but clearly what you are describing is a person who, if what you're saying is true and what you've heard is true, and I'm sure there is some truth to it, is that this is a very stubborn individual who, as this person has gotten older, has obviously been able to date younger, whatever.

Speaker 2 And I'm guessing he looks fairly good for his age. Yes.
Yeah. So because he's aged gracefully, he's, you know, able to attract, you know, younger people as well.

Speaker 2 But again, the pattern his family members are noticing is like, this is this very stubborn person who is able to, like you said, kind of mold person into their lifestyle, which I think I'm sure he would say kind of works at first, whether that's whether it's his like conscious intention or not.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like one thing for a family member to deserve something versus him being like, well, I do this because this. And he just, I suppose it just kind of happens that way.

Speaker 2 But I would imagine, you know like you are in this position now feeling the way you're feeling versus past ex-girlfriends is that like again not to justify cheating at all but it makes sense that someone who like

Speaker 2 initially dates younger is in a position of power right I bet you feel like you have a lot more agency and voice in this relationship than you did when you first met the guy and when you first met the guy you were 24 years old and he was 39 years old and you know i don't i don't know what it felt.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it's kind of exciting. He probably had more money than you.
He probably had more means, a little bit more life experience. He probably spoke maybe with a little more confidence.

Speaker 2 Maybe you were a little bit more quiet and demure at first. I don't know.

Speaker 2 But I'm sure as you, your relationship, you know, as you guys got to go now that you've found your voice, I'm assuming it felt like he was your equal.

Speaker 2 And as you continue to find your voice, you speak up more. You, you ask for more.
You demand more.

Speaker 2 You, you know, and if he's still acting as if like you're going to be the same person at 24 as you are at 29, he's in for a rude awakening. And it sounds like he has been in for a rude awakening.

Speaker 2 Partly of the problem maybe is some of these younger women he dated didn't know how to communicate to someone older, someone who is obviously like not really open to communicating, could be accused of being dismissive when they are trying to communicate to him.

Speaker 2 And their immature response was to find comfort and sanctuary. outside of the relationship before they ended the relationship, which again is not okay.

Speaker 2 But like you would think he would be reflective on some of the choices he is making to try to avoid future frustrations, but he's not. I mean, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 He's just not, he's not willing to go there.

Speaker 2 So based on what you're telling me, you're describing someone who seems pretty set in his ways, seems to be unwilling to look in the mirror and reflect on what role he played in the failure of his past relationships.

Speaker 2 Right now, my guess is he is scapegoating his ex-girlfriends and victimizing himself as the person who's been cheated on.

Speaker 2 And while he was wronged, and that's obviously, I feel really bad for him and he doesn't deserve what happened to him, he can still look in the mirror and ask himself, what could I have done differently in that relationship?

Speaker 2 What could have I controlled that would have improved that situation?

Speaker 2 And a lot of people have a hard time doing that because to do that, people feel like they are taking the blame for someone else's actions, right?

Speaker 2 And I think a lot of people, I've mentioned this before, struggle with empathy versus an explanation. People are afraid to understand why things happen out of fear of justifying what happened, right?

Speaker 2 That's the thing people struggle with the most. So he hasn't tried to understand the why.

Speaker 2 It's just been easier for him to victimize himself and make them the bad guy in his story rather than look at, could I have done things differently to avoid that outcome?

Speaker 2 Maybe the relationship would have ended. I don't know.
But maybe he made it very difficult to communicate with someone. And again,

Speaker 2 they made a poor choice themselves. They stepped out of the relationship.
It hurt him, but he's not doing anything differently. He's just rinse and repeat.

Speaker 2 Breaks up with that one, finds a new younger girlfriend, dates them for a while, enjoys the, I'm guessing, the honeymoon phase of dating someone younger because like he gets his way a lot.

Speaker 2 They're very in awe of him. He feels important.
He feels validated, you know, et cetera, et cetera. They find their voice.
They speak up. He's just like, I'm an old dog.
No new tricks for me.

Speaker 2 It's a cycle that keeps repeating.

Speaker 2 The only thing that's different about your relationship is that you seem to be willing to address this head-on without, you know, stepping outside the relationship before you do so.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, that's just always been a non-negotiable for me that like,

Speaker 5 if I'm ever getting to the point where I feel like stepping out or having feelings for somebody else, I'm always, I'll break up. Sure.
I got to break up. I never want to do that.
But

Speaker 5 you definitely hit the nail on the head with like with the dynamic of our relationship from start to now and his perspective on being cheated on in the past. So that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 You know, obviously you called in with the question of, am I making the right choice? Let me ask you this. Like, if he were here, right? Like, what's his version? What's his version of the story?

Speaker 2 Like, what would he say to me? Do you think that would change your mind or at least have me or the audience empathize with his plight more? What do you think that would be?

Speaker 5 I don't know if it'll help people empathize with him, but I think it's honestly

Speaker 5 genuinely what he thinks is like that I haven't given him enough of a chance to to kind of change things and he knows these are all things that he's super capable of and that he can he can and will do anything to make the relationship work and

Speaker 5 like whatever it takes will make the relationship work but what is he so then what is he doing I mean we went we went through this phase I we almost broke up basically over the summer and he said all these things and

Speaker 5 I mean things were good for a while but it ends up being like, I think I'm realizing the reason it ends up being good is because I'm the one that starts to to fully invest back in the relationship again.

Speaker 5 And then after a few months, I started to pull back again because I'm like, wait, is he really trying? It doesn't seem like he's trying that much.

Speaker 5 So I don't know if I could say, like, he'll be a little bit better for a few weeks about complimenting me or walking our dog or just trying to do something to make me happy. But then.

Speaker 5 After that, it feels like it kind of goes dry again.

Speaker 2 When he said, I don't know why I am the way I am type of thing, but like, if I could, I would. What does he mean by that?

Speaker 5 I mean, I've said, I've said to him before, like, he just says, like, it honestly doesn't cross his mind. And I'm kind of like, well, I call BS.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 Sorry if I was not allowed to say that, but you can say that.

Speaker 5 I mean, he has the, he has a ton of things. Like, he's really good at, I know, maybe this is a common analogy for men, but.

Speaker 5 sports stats and all these things and all these different facts he can keep in his head and remember to do things and he'll set reminders to make sure he does things.

Speaker 5 And I said, why don't you put a reminder on your phone? Make sure you give Casey a hug when she gets home or make sure sure you kiss Casey a little bit more.

Speaker 5 Like just different reminders of things like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, listen, I don't think I'm, I'm not the most affectionate guy, you know, like physical touch is not on the top of my love language, right? It's on the top of my wife's.

Speaker 2 And yeah, to that, to your point, you know, I have to like.

Speaker 2 remind myself that like i really need to come home and embrace my wife or do something and i could always be better right but like when my wife brings it up to me i don't play victim i'm always like yes and I either try to do the thing she's asking.

Speaker 2 And we have a playful banter, sure, back in, but it's never a fight. That's for sure.
It's one thing for a love language not to be a strength of mine.

Speaker 2 It's another thing to like be so defensive of that fact that instead of acknowledging I'm not meeting my partner's needs, I argue with them and try to justify why I haven't done that as opposed to just shutting up and doing it, you know?

Speaker 2 And I think that comes with maturity, which is disappointing for him. Because if you told me your boyfriend was 28,

Speaker 2 you know, I would maybe just think that he's just a little stubborn and a little immature. 44.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's not figuring it out. You're not describing a man who's ever really been able to learn from any of his heartbreaks.
You know, he's only, he's only paying himself out to be a victim.

Speaker 5 My question is on that is like, he kind of challenges me a lot that like I need to tell him more, but it gets like, it doesn't make the intimacy as like,

Speaker 5 I don't know, it doesn't feel the same when you're constantly having to remind somebody so it's like how often do i have to remind somebody

Speaker 2 or is that i mean just up to me how often i want to do that in my relationship i mean at a certain point it gets kind of like not genuine anymore i think it's a bit of a dance right um and i don't know your exact dynamic but for starters for one when you do bring it up it shouldn't come with resistance from him it shouldn't come with like huffs and puffs and complaints and you know what I'm saying, where you really feel like it's one thing to have to ask.

Speaker 2 You'd prefer not to ask.

Speaker 2 It makes it really attractive when he like complains about you asking and find and makes it seem inconvenient as opposed to like he needs to treat it as a like he appreciates you taking the time to remind him kind of thing.

Speaker 2 You know, listen, for example. Natalie, like I was in New York over the weekend.
She didn't get to come. I was there for a wedding, ran some errands.

Speaker 2 And now it was like, I was stopping at a store to get a friend like a small, like, thank you gift. She knew what store I was going to.
And she's like, by the way, I really love their sweaters.

Speaker 2 I'm a size medium in a playful way. Now, I didn't end up buying her a sweater.

Speaker 2 I ended up sending her flowers or whatever, but she like, in a playful way, she like always like will throw out jokes about like getting her this or getting her that.

Speaker 2 It's not really serious or anything like that. She is sometimes giving me ideas.
And then I will deliver on some of these ideas from time to time. And I actually appreciate it.

Speaker 2 Like to me, in a lot of ways, I think Natalie sets me up for success, right? She will joke about flowers from time to time. It's never like, why don't you ever get me flowers?

Speaker 2 She'll joke about like, boy, grocery stores always have flowers right at the checkout and they make it so easy. You know, it's just like a little reminder here or there.

Speaker 2 And Natalie has a nice way of doing it without making it feel like I'm being nagged. And, but it's up to me to.
take advantage of those kind of ideas that she has. Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 I've literally had like this, the same thing, like the last time that we broke up, I said, like, for example, some things you could do is just when you go to the store every now and then, like, buy a flower, like buy, buy something.

Speaker 5 Just, it doesn't have to be like expensive, just something that shows that you were thinking about me. And then, like, so we get, get back together.

Speaker 5 And my thoughts are, oh, man, like, he's going to go to the store and get me flowers after we just had this conversation where I said, get me flowers. And then he doesn't.

Speaker 5 So I kept playfully nudging, you know, oh, you're going to the store. Why don't you buy me some flowers?

Speaker 5 Or we went to the farmer's market together and I was like, oh, is this, are you going to buy me flowers? and he's like do you really want me to buy your flowers here and i'm like well i guess not

Speaker 2 yeah he is definitely a very it sounds like a very stubborn man who doesn't like to be told what to do and when you are saying these things he is he gets annoyed and i imagine you feel frustrated because you're like well he's definitely not going to give it to me if i never bring it up when i do bring it up he makes it he it's almost like well now that you brought it up i'm not going to do it because it's like he doesn't want to be told to do anything or reminded to do things and it's just like well okay yeah like you you said a few minutes minutes ago that he thinks that he would do anything to make a relationship work is that accurate it's accurate that that's what he said i don't it's i don't believe that though well i know you don't believe it but i'm saying like why do you think he said that and do you think he believes it i really don't think that he wants to have to go through another breakup again.

Speaker 5 I mean, obviously, I know he really loves me and cares about me. There are a lot of like really great aspects to our relationship is in like we're like best friends.

Speaker 5 Um, but I feel like that's like where it stops. But I think he wants to believe that he can do all those things for me.
So that's why he says it. It is a true statement.

Speaker 5 Those are easy things to give or to ask for, and it's not unrealistic. So I think he's being honest in the sense that he believes he can do it, but not in the sense that it will be done.

Speaker 2 In terms of like back to the sex, you know, because men are men, like, have you done things to spice things up on your end only to be turned down?

Speaker 2 Let's say, like, send him a sexy photo randomly, hoping that he would like get turned on and want to come home and ravage you and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 Like, have you done anything like that and then been turned down?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I definitely,

Speaker 5 definitely do things like that, but like, it's just more of like a response of like flame emojis. And then that's where it ends.
So I've done other things, you know, like

Speaker 5 put on lingerie and come out into the living room or like come out in the shower towel in the living room.

Speaker 5 And it's usually initiated then, but I'm not the most 100% like confident person in myself sexually. It doesn't help to have a partner that's really not that into

Speaker 5 sex all the time to build that confidence.

Speaker 2 He's really giving you an idea.

Speaker 5 I try as best as I can.

Speaker 2 He doesn't sound like a man in therapy, but I'm just going to ask, is he in therapy or have you guys tried couples therapy?

Speaker 5 He has gone to therapy specifically to get over being cheated on.

Speaker 5 And then he said he went one day and just no longer had any upset feelings. So he never went back.

Speaker 5 He did agree to do couples therapy with me, which entailed me calling around to a bunch of couples therapists, never being able to book an appointment and not getting any help in booking one.

Speaker 5 So and then we're where we are now. So.

Speaker 2 So, and then you mentioned you're kind of broken up. Like, what's his state of mind right now?

Speaker 5 So I ended things and then we're still living together.

Speaker 5 And I decided to have a conversation with him like, hey, basically we're still going to be living together and we're hanging out like we're still friends and doing all these things together.

Speaker 5 Like we're still friends, which is weird because a week ago we were boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 5 So it's hard like when you're sitting on the couch with somebody watching TV or doing all these things together to what it's like involuntary sometimes to like.

Speaker 5 put your hand on their leg or like rub their shoulder or do certain things like that so i kind of just said like like what's your boundaries as far as while I'm still living here?

Speaker 5 And he said, like, I always want you to hug me, kiss me, touch me, whatever, as long as you're here.

Speaker 5 And I did say, like, okay, but my mind's not going to change as far as like wanting kids in the future. And that's a non-negotiable for you.
And he said, yeah.

Speaker 5 So that's kind of where we left it. And like, he said, he's okay with us being intimate until I go.
I just don't, I don't know if he fully understands there is no chance of ever getting back together.

Speaker 5 And I don't know if I'm I'm making a bad decision on his or being like rude or inconsiderate to him by still doing those things while knowing it's not going to go forward.

Speaker 2 He's an adult. He's a big boy.
He's 44 years old. I don't know if he takes you seriously.
I mean, he's, he's not giving the energy like he is, right? Like things aren't adding up, right?

Speaker 2 If you're a guy who says, I would do anything for you, I don't want to leave, lose you, I love you. A, he would be willing to make some changes.

Speaker 2 Some of your asks aren't that hard, you know, like, I don't think it's one thing, you know, having sex only on the weekends, I guess.

Speaker 2 I mean, like, if you guys were having sex every Saturday and Sunday, I mean like two times a week is not the worst late at night. He's, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like drunk, you know, it's just like, no, no, who would want that? You know what I'm saying? Like, who would want a relationship where the sex life is solely decided by the man, one side?

Speaker 2 And then again, he doesn't want to have kids. You do.
That alone. I mean, quite honestly, like, if that really is how he feels and that's how you feel, then you guys definitely should break up.

Speaker 5 That's, I think it's the kids thing, it's like a super new feeling for me. I was always kind of on the page of, I don't see myself being a mom ever.

Speaker 5 And then my brother and sister-in-law had a kid and we had a FaceTime call over Christmas. And I was looking at her face on FaceTime, the baby, and I was like, oh,

Speaker 5 I think she should be a mom.

Speaker 2 Listen, it's the bad. Listen, I don't want to.

Speaker 5 And so I've been battling with that.

Speaker 2 Listen, I obviously I'm biased.

Speaker 2 i'm a new dad i don't want to project any of my parenting necessarily beliefs or desires onto anyone else but like as some it's it's the greatest thing ever i've never met a parent you know whether they've always wanted to be parents or like yourself kind of decided later in life that's something they wanted that they didn't think it was like the absolute most incredible experience and like gave their life some real purpose.

Speaker 2 I hope everyone has the opportunity to experience what it's like to be a parent. That's an awesome, awesome thing.

Speaker 5 My brother and I grew up with like a lot of family trauma.

Speaker 5 And so my brother's very similar to you in how he talks about his daughter and how he talks about being a dad and like how I get to see him being a dad.

Speaker 5 And I being able to see a family member that grew up in those same like traumas and experiences that you did be a successful parent is like really eye-opening towards being like, oh, maybe I can do this too.

Speaker 2 You know, it's one of those things too. It's just like, you know, we live in a time where we become hyper conscientious of our childhood traumas.

Speaker 2 We become way more aware of reasons, you know, that things that have hurt us or damaged us, right? But I think we've become less resilient as well, right?

Speaker 2 And I think some of these things that we become aware of to explain what happened to us, to explain why we are the way we are, like, it's, it's, I think it's important, right?

Speaker 2 Because it makes us feel like things are less our fault. At least it gives us a path for healing.
But I also think in a lot of ways, it's become an excuse not to make improvements in our life, right?

Speaker 2 I didn't have a traumatic childhood relative to like, for example, my wife, right?

Speaker 2 Or sounds like you, but there's a lot of people who choose not to use past misfortunes as a reason not to like be a better version of themselves.

Speaker 2 Sounds like your brother really has embraced fatherhood and wants to not bring upon, you know, his daughter what was brought upon him, right? And so you can choose to do that, right?

Speaker 2 And you can get therapy and you can get help and you can acknowledge that, hey, this shit happened to me, but I don't want to pass that down. I can do things differently.

Speaker 2 Like your boyfriend sounds like he's just, he's just a victim, especially when it comes to cheating cheating and not wanting to do things differently.

Speaker 2 Everything you're saying sounds like you've really thought this through and he's not giving you anything to work with. Even now, you're broken up and he's not even fighting for you.

Speaker 2 He's just kind of like, well, you know, I guess, you know, he's being a gracious host. Like he's being a really cool landlord.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 He's just allowing you to continue to live there. And he's like, yeah, I mean, like, we can still have sex and like hook up.
I mean, he's being really, really nice about you staying there.

Speaker 2 He really is. He could be a much bigger dick.
You know what I'm saying? But he's not fighting for you. He's not doing any.

Speaker 5 You know he's not doing anything that makes him really feel like he's going to miss you or be sorry and like the best you can do is wonder if he's even taking you seriously and honestly who who knows i just like i really struggle because i've gone through this before like i had an apartment ready to go and i had talked to my job and i was ready to leave and then i ended up staying and listening because he said he was going to you know change and fix everything And then here I am again in this phase where like, okay, it all feels real again and I'm making plans to move and leave.

Speaker 5 And then, of course, I mean, I know this is so common, but like, all I can think about is all the good things and all the, like, he's being a very gracious host.

Speaker 5 So, we're having all these really great times together and laughing and joking and being more intimate because that's what happens when you think you're about to lose somebody.

Speaker 5 And it's really hard to fight those feelings and be like, remembering all the reasons that you want to leave right now. And I'm like, not

Speaker 5 the right decision.

Speaker 2 Well, all the other stuff aside, his rude comments, the limited sex, the lack of intimacy, the fact that he makes you feel like a nag, all that aside, the fact that you want to be a mom and he absolutely doesn't, that's all you need.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's, you should assume he's not going to change.

Speaker 2 I don't think anyone should be in a relationship with someone who clearly doesn't want to have kids and then tries to convince themselves if they're okay with not having kids for the sake of a relationship.

Speaker 2 Think of all the things he's not willing to do for you, the little things. Yeah.
And he is indirectly asking you to give up on the miracle of being a mom. That's a huge ask.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, he's like, he said, that's a pretty crappy reason to end a relationship.

Speaker 5 I mean, I know it's a big reason, but I think it's a pretty crappy one because like nothing else went wrong, but that.

Speaker 2 I'm like, oh.

Speaker 2 He hasn't matured at a rate he should have at this point in his life. That's, that's an insane thing for him to say.

Speaker 2 And if anything, what that says is that he is, he's, this is, you're describing a person who is very much can't think outside of himself. He's a very, he's very self-centered.
He's very selfish.

Speaker 2 And that's honestly very typical for a lot of like people who aren't in committed relationships. He's 44 years old and he doesn't have a family.
And that's not a criticism on him.

Speaker 2 It's just that like prior to me being in a relationship with Natalie, by default, I had a more self-centered life. I only really had me to care about.

Speaker 2 And even when Natalie and I were still dating, it wasn't like we were just boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 2 You know, my primary concern was me, my job, the people, you know, like you just by default become more selfish and self-centered.

Speaker 2 And he has really like leaned into that and he seems to be incapable of even acknowledging what he's asking you.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to have kids and he's expecting you to be comfortable with that and make you feel bad for thinking about like, well, because you don't even want to break up with him.

Speaker 2 Here you are fighting for this relationship. It feels like you're fighting by yourself.
His big solution to this whole relationship problem is for you to get on board.

Speaker 2 Like in every category, at least what you're describing, whether it's the sex life, whether it's the intimacy, whether it's the having kids, he's very consistent and which is, this is how I feel.

Speaker 2 This is who I am. Take it or leave it.

Speaker 5 What advice would you have in helping me, I guess, like stand my ground in my head? And the mom thing is strong, but it's a new feeling. So I'm kind of like, well, what if it wavers?

Speaker 5 It's only been around for a couple of months. So like, that's why that is hard being a deciding factor to me.

Speaker 5 Like, so do you have any advice on, I want to make sure that I don't end up staying for another year and then I'm back here in the same place

Speaker 5 that I am now.

Speaker 2 Like back together with him.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then let's assume that happened.

Speaker 5 I mean, we've gone through the cycle where it's like almost ended and then stayed together. But let's stay together.

Speaker 2 I don't want this for you and you don't want this for yourself, but let's just play that, you know, if you broke up with him and you moved back home, he didn't move on, he didn't forget about you, you didn't move on, you didn't forget about him, you guys reconnected in six months, nine months, you're back, you move back together with him.

Speaker 2 And literally in a year from now, you are back together with it being kind of essentially the same. That would be a choice that you make for one.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, no one's going to make you do that, right? So like if you do do that, you're choosing to do that. And that's something you need to recognize too.
That's not the worst case scenario.

Speaker 2 At least at that point, you were able to go home and enjoy your niece or nephew, you know, spend time with family, probably date other people, get a sense of what else is out there, explore your feelings about children.

Speaker 2 If you decide a year from now that you don't want to have kids and he's willing to get back together with you, then what did you lose? Nothing. You know what I'm saying? What you, you

Speaker 2 You gained perspective. You gained like at least to explore what else is out there.

Speaker 2 What the real worst case scenario is for you to accept this life that you have right now, which is making you unhappy.

Speaker 2 And despite how much you're fighting for this relationship, it sounds like you're fighting a battle by yourself. And I would hate for you to know nothing about it and just accept this.

Speaker 2 as the best you can get. And then a year from now, still be with the guy having these same feelings and not even knowing what it's like and still questioning whether you should leave or not.

Speaker 2 At least with that other scenario, at least you got to leave and chose to come back.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not for nothing. Yeah.
You, you know, you would be gaining perspective, at least. But that's, again, that's, that's, you don't have to go back.

Speaker 2 It does sound like he doesn't take you very seriously. Like, you've gotten this close before, like you said.

Speaker 2 And the routine was for him to just like allow the fear of breaking you guys up to reconnect you guys, have a little more steamy sex, you know, take some of the tension off the table.

Speaker 2 But that's not what you want because you know that's temporary. So in the short term, I would probably stop sleeping with him, for one.
I would act like roommates.

Speaker 2 That might help you get some perspective.

Speaker 5 I guess it's just hard to draw the boundary there.

Speaker 2 Sure, yeah. Criticism toward, if, if, if you have such a hard time with that, that's part of the reason why he's not taking you seriously.

Speaker 2 At some point, this person, this, your boyfriend, like he's not changing because at the end of the day, it's been easier for him to wear you down.

Speaker 5 It sounds, it's hard to think of it like that because then it like makes it sound like malicious on his part, but I guess it's not. It's just maybe like self-defense.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, subconsciously, like you've heard me use this like metaphor before, but people do not spend more than they need to.
You know, people don't, they're not charged $15

Speaker 2 at the register and they don't just offer 20 bucks for no reason.

Speaker 2 So if you are constantly always accepting what he's willing to give, even if it's the bare minimum, then he's generally only going to give the bare minimum.

Speaker 2 So all he has to do is kind of wear you out. And he ends up getting what he wants.
And that's probably been fairly consistent from him. And what he, and, and what I, and I really empathize for him.

Speaker 2 I really feel for him because the only thing that's really happened out of this so far is he gets cheated on, which is such an egregious sin in a relationship, he quickly becomes the victim.

Speaker 2 So here he is in all these relationships, including yours now, where he pushes their partner away. He pushes their partner away.
He disconnects. He stonewalls.

Speaker 2 He makes himself out to be like this mini victim as if like, I'm trying my best, but you ask too much of me.

Speaker 2 But like, I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do that. Again, they make the decision wrong as it is.

Speaker 2 They made a decision partly because they, you know, they don't know what to do with this fucking guy anymore.

Speaker 2 And like, well, thankfully you have the maturity and the self-respect not to cheat on him that his partners didn't have the same self-respect that you had. And then that happens.

Speaker 2 And then immediately there's no reflection on like the role he played. He's just like, I'm a victim.
They're a bitch. They cheated on me.
They're horrible. And poor me.

Speaker 2 And I really feel for him because, like, this has become a pattern for him. And instead of growing through these experiences, it's almost stunted his growth as a man.

Speaker 5 I know you're very big on, I haven't read your book. I'm not a big book reader, but maybe I will, but I know you're very big on don't text your ex, like not maintaining friendships after.

Speaker 5 My big thing is his family has been like, I mentioned I had some family trauma. And like, so his family has really become my family.

Speaker 5 I've been there for every event for like his nieces and nephews and his mom and his dad. If like, I mean, they've really become my family.

Speaker 5 I do want to maintain a relationship with them. And then, I mean, I think I'd be fine maintaining a relationship with him sometime in the future, like friendship-wise.

Speaker 2 But I'm curious if you're not. I don't recommend it.

Speaker 5 I don't think that's a bad idea.

Speaker 2 I do. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Listen, I understand all the things you're saying that in the short term, it's going to be, it makes the breakup more difficult because, you know, that's the problem with, you know, having five-year relationships is that you don't just develop relationships with your partner.

Speaker 2 You develop relationships with their friends and their family. And in some cases, they really become as much of a support system for you as they were for your partner.
It makes your life harder.

Speaker 2 It makes it easier for him to get back in.

Speaker 5 He does.

Speaker 5 Every time we almost break up, he always guilts me and says, this is what happens. I'm never going to be able to talk to you again.

Speaker 2 Everybody says that they'll stay friends, but they never stay friends and i have no problem just being a friend if a relationship ends and i just know you're never going to talk to me again yeah it's a little manipulative but also your your boyfriend's giving a little bit of boy right like and here's the thing when you break up with someone you should break up with them and like i'm assuming that if if if i were a genie i could tell the future if i was like casey i hate to break it to you you'll you'll never find love outside of this relationship this is it for you you would probably stay in the relationship you'd be like oh that sucks i mean it's not perfect but like i guess he's good enough you know like, if you're going to break up with someone, you should assume, because it's almost certainly true, that you will find someone else.

Speaker 2 I don't know when that will be, but the only reason you are considering breaking off this relationship is because you think you can do better, that you deserve better, that you deserve a relationship and a partner who is going to make it feel like they enjoy making you feel happy.

Speaker 2 They look forward to making you feel happy. Yes, they need to be reminded from time to time about what they can and should do, but like they appreciate the reminders.

Speaker 2 and ultimately they wake up excited every day, thankful that you are in their life and glad they have an opportunity to show you that love, right? Because you do, everyone deserves that.

Speaker 2 And if you're going to leave this relationship, it's in pursuit of finding that, right? And you will find it someday. And so with that in mind, you need to do that immediately.
Right.

Speaker 2 And you need to live your life as if you're moving on and pursuing that next life and that next love.

Speaker 2 And you don't know who that's going to be with or who it is, but you're going to start today whenever that, you know, if you were to end the relationship.

Speaker 2 That's, that's the mentality you need to have. The only reason people stay friends and breakups is because they're, they're second guessing their decision.

Speaker 2 Or in his case, if he's being broken up with, he's hoping for a lifeline, right? It's not, it's not because they're actual friends, right?

Speaker 2 Either you're going to find someone new or he's going to find someone new and both your partner is going to be like, no, you, no. I'm not comfortable with you being friends with your ex of five years.

Speaker 2 What are you guys friends for? You're just simply friends because you haven't replaced them with someone else. But here I am in your life now wanting to be your boyfriend.

Speaker 2 And I'm really uncomfortable with Chad being your buddy when he was your boyfriend for five years. You know what I'm saying? Like no one's going to be okay with that.

Speaker 2 His next girlfriend, if you break up with him and he ages down, whatever, and finds the impressionable young person who puts up with his like very, you know, rigid like expectations of what he's willing to give in a relationship, she's also not going to be comfortable with you.

Speaker 2 And she's not going to be comfortable with you like being best friends with his sister or mother mother or whoever.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying you need to cut off his family immediately, but listen, it's, it's, it's a sad reality of relationships in life and you will recover from it.

Speaker 2 And again, your next boyfriend, well, I don't know how their family dynamic is going to be. Maybe he won't be as close with them or whatever or yada yada, but like you will be able to find that.

Speaker 2 But the goal for you, you're looking for a family potentially, right? You're looking for a life partner. You're interested in having children.

Speaker 2 And you're not going to, I promise you, if you're lucky enough to find someone that is excited about spending the rest of your life with you and having a family with you, you won't give a fuck

Speaker 2 about like what friends you kept, you know,

Speaker 2 in your previous life. Your life will literally, I mean, talk to your brother.
He'll know exactly what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 It's just like your life kind of starts over from that moment, you know, and you're just not going to have time to keep in touch with your ex-boyfriend's mom. You're just not going to care.

Speaker 2 You'll wish her well.

Speaker 2 It's hard for you to recognize that now because you're still, you know, you still love your boyfriend. You still live with them.
You're kind of like, you're broken up, but kind of not really.

Speaker 2 And that's just like a hard thing for you to grasp. But it's definitely not great to stay connected and in touch because it just makes it that much more difficult to move on.

Speaker 2 And if, listen, getting back together is not the worst thing. It's not having any clarity.
And so, yeah, it's harsh, but it's the right thing to do if you do decide to move on.

Speaker 5 A good way to think of it is like, it's not going to matter to me as much once I've created one of my own. It won't.
So I guess that's a good way to look at it.

Speaker 2 And like, you know, you have friends and you have your brother and like you have his sister-in-law and like the people who I was closest with at 29.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to think where I was in my life when I was 29, but I promise you that will evolve.

Speaker 2 And you definitely shouldn't be making decisions about your future self and your future life for like relatives of ex-boyfriends who decided they weren't willing to like do their part. So.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 It's helpful to hear your, your point of view on him as well. Cause like if I talk to my like girlfriends or my mom or whatever, it's kind of just like, he sucks, leave him.

Speaker 5 And then if I talk to his family member and his, his friends, it's a little like, well, like, this is just him, but I think he can make it work.

Speaker 2 If he wanted to, he would. Yeah.
Listen, I really do empathize with him. And that's not for you to like feel so bad for him.
You stay with him. He's not over his being cheated on for sure.

Speaker 2 He's also, he hasn't been willing to look at like the role he played. I wonder if even that question would trigger him.

Speaker 2 Is he aware of how stubborn he is? The difference between you and all his exes is that you have your own personal boundary about like your unwillingness to cheat.

Speaker 2 Some people are just like have enough trauma in their life and that's just maybe their parents. Did that shit and they just think that's the answer to getting out or whatever.

Speaker 2 They self-sabotage things like that. Some people,

Speaker 2 not to make excuses for any of his ex-girlfriends, shit happens and communication is hard. And your boyfriend, it sounds like he's very difficult to communicate with.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, I've had, I've had that same literal thought of like, I mean, I would never do it, but I can see where a woman would get to the point where they might feel like stepping out on this relationship dynamic.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, think about it.

Speaker 2 Right now, you're just like, I'm talking to you and you're giving me all these answers and like, and you're still struggling with wondering if you're making the right decision.

Speaker 2 Again, not justifying at all, because I do think it's one of the worst things you can do to someone. And cheating on someone really will fuck them up emotionally and mentally.

Speaker 2 And it's just a terrible, terrible thing. But the reality is, is like, it's more common than it's not common.
And you have to ask yourself why. Right.
And there are reasons why people do it.

Speaker 2 I had to reflect when I got cheated on in the past about like, you know, could I have done things differently? It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't make it my fault.

Speaker 2 It's no one's fault for being cheated on. They made a choice, but you can still look at your own choices as what got you in that position.
Right.

Speaker 2 And so here you are, your boyfriend's really good at making you question how you're feeling and making you like not confident in your decisions.

Speaker 2 And I can see a less better communicator communicator who doesn't have the boundaries you have feeling like they should break up with this guy, afraid of doing it.

Speaker 2 So they just like fuck another guy to like kind of make the decision for themselves in a way. You know, like that shit happens.
And like your, your boyfriend.

Speaker 5 You can't come back from that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you can't come back from that. And like, you know, it's your boyfriend, it's like right in front of his face, you know, and he doesn't even want to like do anything about it.

Speaker 2 And you know, it's funny, ironically, here he is telling you about other men and like what you're supposed to accept and things like that.

Speaker 2 What's more accurate is like if you don't change, you're gonna keep pushing all of your partners away at some point. He wants to speak for all men.

Speaker 2 I think you can speak for more women talking about what they're not gonna be okay with once they find their voice and are uncomfortable in a relationship with him.

Speaker 2 And if he only wants to have sex on his terms and if he only is willing to be affectionate on his terms and make you feel bad for asking and make you feel like a nag and and make you feel stupid or like, you know, for for wanting some of the things in your life that he doesn't, it ain't gonna get much better for him.

Speaker 5 Well, I wanted to say one last thing before we end the call.

Speaker 5 The side note is kind of unrelated, but I wanted to say thank you for having the perspective that you do on the Blake Lively and Justin Beldoni drama as somebody that's dealt with harassment and things like that.

Speaker 5 It's very refreshing to have at least one person in a podcast of you guys always saying things. And I'm like, am I crazy?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, listen, it's been awesome.

Speaker 2 It's been awesome. No, I appreciate it.
Well, thank you for saying. And I appreciate you saying that because sometimes it does feel like we are alone with our opinion.

Speaker 2 But I can assure you, we're right.

Speaker 5 But anyways, I appreciate all of your advice and everything that you do. And I love the podcast.
And thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 Sorry, you're going through this, but you're not crazy. And I think your instincts and your gut is right.
And I think you should follow your gut. You're only 29.
You're still incredibly young.

Speaker 2 You have a ton going for you. You can leave this relationship feeling good knowing that you've tried.

Speaker 2 And every relationship I've ever ever been in that didn't work out, whether I got cheated on or whether I broke up with them or whether they, you know, broke up with me, I always felt like I did everything I could.

Speaker 2 I probably stayed in a relationship longer than I should have.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, the stuff about, you know, you thought you were going to break up in the past and didn't and yada, yada, like if you decide to leave this man, you can feel good that you've done everything you could.

Speaker 2 You tried.

Speaker 2 turned over every stone, you looked in every nook and cranny, and he just decided that this is who he is.

Speaker 2 And if you're not going to accept who he is, then he's not going to change. And it's not your job to convince him how wrong he is.
You never, you can't predict the future. I don't know.

Speaker 2 You know, it would be hard for you to trust that he's actually going to make a change because like once you break up, then it becomes something he's only willing to do once you

Speaker 2 took seriously. But like, put it this way, fast forward, let's say you break up with him.
Let's say all of a sudden he's like, oh, crying and begging for you back and really changing.

Speaker 2 He, I would say to him, I don't think you ever really dealt with the reasons why you've been cheated on and why, like, you know, and this may hurt your feelings, but like, I understand you got over the, you know, the hurt, but like, you never really addressed the why.

Speaker 2 And while it's not your fault you got cheated on, like, there is a pattern in your life that you're not willing to change for the people in relationships and you force them to make these drastic decisions.

Speaker 2 Like, I didn't want to break up with you. You know, the only difference between me and your ex-girlfriends is I just chose a healthier way to get out of the relationship.

Speaker 2 But the end of the day, I wanted to be in this relationship and you pushed me away. You know?

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's a good idea. Good point.

Speaker 2 Good luck. I hope this was helpful.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was. It was really helpful.
All right.

Speaker 2 Well, take care.

Speaker 2 Please keep us posted. We'd love to know what you end up doing.
And we're here if you need.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 2 All right. Thank you.
All right. Bye-bye.

Speaker 5 Bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 7 Hi, I'm good. I am Shannon.
I'm 27 years old, and I'm a lifelong vegetarian. And I'm wondering if that's worth changing for a man.

Speaker 2 Lifelong. Okay.

Speaker 7 Lifelong. All 27 years of my life.

Speaker 2 You've never had meat in your life.

Speaker 7 Never, ever. And yeah, it's kind of some unique circumstances for it because I'm the only one in my entire family.

Speaker 7 And so I grew up in the Northeast and kind of decided from a very young age with a good friend of mine who's basically like a sister that we loved animals too much and didn't want to eat meat.

Speaker 7 And we grew up at a boarding school where both of our dads taught. So we just ate at the dining hall and

Speaker 7 didn't really have to have our parents cook for us. So they respected that.
And then all these years later, just kind of stuck.

Speaker 2 Gotcha. Okay.
Is that a deer on your shirt?

Speaker 7 It's a moose.

Speaker 2 A moose. Okay.

Speaker 7 Yes, it is.

Speaker 7 Now I live out in the West in a really rural area where hunting and meat is very prominent.

Speaker 7 And that's why it's become an issue, particularly in my dating life, because everybody where I live eats meat. That's the main part of their diet.
And for me, it obviously isn't.

Speaker 7 And I tried to kind of not bring that up right away, but people eventually learn and then. they kind of write me off.

Speaker 7 So wondering if I should start eating meat to give me a better chance at love and dating or if I should stick to my guns.

Speaker 2 Is there a particular man that you're considering doing this for?

Speaker 7 I have a man in my life right now. There's been many men who have pressured me since moving to where I live now to do it.

Speaker 7 And so now I'm currently in this casual relationship with this guy out where I live. He's born and bred.
So he pretty much eats elk for every single meal every day. That's all he eats.
Elk. Yeah.

Speaker 7 So there's big hunting in elk. He kills his own elk.
That's amazing. He eats his own elk, all those things.
Yeah, that's it. He's a carnivore.

Speaker 2 I don't eat. And elk.

Speaker 2 Meat. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. How old elk tip?

Speaker 2 I would have, how do you know? You never eat elk.

Speaker 7 I wouldn't know.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So this is a guy, particularly right now, I consider, quote unquote, changing it for, but it's also kind of difficult because we're in a relationship where he's a little bit older than me.

Speaker 7 He has kids and wants to move closer to where his kids are. And that's his priority.
So we likely won't stay together forever and ever.

Speaker 7 But part of me is like, but if I ate meat, would you consider making things work? Whereas me being a vegetarian, he says,

Speaker 7 I look at my refrigerator. I can't cook anything for you.
We can't eat dinners together. He doesn't want to cook something for someone if he's not going to eat it.

Speaker 7 Like he's not going to make me a vegetarian meal. So is that more of a problem with the relationship?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And so it's kind of double, double-sided. This particular relationship and just in general, where I live, it is so prominent.

Speaker 2 And why do you just change it now? Why do you live where you live out of curiosity?

Speaker 7 Well, so, yeah, I moved out west. So I live in like the least populated state in one of the least populated counties.
So just my chances of love are slim.

Speaker 2 How did you end up in Wyoming or Montana?

Speaker 7 Yeah, Wyoming.

Speaker 5 You nailed it.

Speaker 7 I moved out here to work for a ranch a while back and then just loved it so much. I stayed and love the community aspect.
There's so many amenities in terms of we have a really nice gym and library.

Speaker 7 There's access to the outdoors.

Speaker 2 You love where you live, to be clear.

Speaker 7 I love where I live. Yeah.
And so kind of right now I feel stuck with the triangle of I can only choose two of the three things, either staying a vegetarian, staying where I live, or finding love.

Speaker 7 Where if I want to find a long-term sustainable relationship and stay a vegetarian, I have to move elsewhere. And I can't really get all three

Speaker 7 where I live.

Speaker 2 It's funny because Natalie and I were in a meeting earlier today talking about something, but our relationships came up in general.

Speaker 2 And I talked about how dating Natalie is, out of all the women I've dated, Natalie is the person that is for all our differences in personality, of which there are many, partly because of just our personalities and there's our age difference, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 We like a lot of the same things. Shows we like to watch, foods we like to eat, things that we like to do, and that matters.

Speaker 2 And I have had had to realize like younger me, you know, 22 year old me was like, love is all you need.

Speaker 2 And it was like, I almost kind of got off on like how incompatible me and someone I thought was hot were.

Speaker 2 And the idea that like, you know, if I loved him enough or I was willing to sacrifice enough that like I somehow got

Speaker 2 a medal for being the most, I don't know, miserable, you know, love martyr, you know, in a way. And it's just like, it matters.

Speaker 2 That really matters in a relationship, like the day to day, to not have to compromise every goddamn day about what you do or what you eat or where you go or who you hang out with.

Speaker 2 Like relationships are hard enough. So,

Speaker 2 you know, some of the small day-to-day things, like you, you want to make sure you're compatible on as many things as possible because there's, you know, relationships are hard.

Speaker 2 I have dated a vegetarian. And like you, she was like a vegetarian her whole life.
She grew up on a farm, you know, and she loved animals.

Speaker 2 And the idea of like eating like the baby cow was just like, you know, whatever. I did get her to try meat at one point.
I don't know, like after we broke up.

Speaker 6 It was like, oh, wow. Yeah.
Anyways.

Speaker 7 And see, that's my thing where

Speaker 7 now in my life, I don't really have a full-on reason not to eat meat. Whereas, I mean, I'm healthy.

Speaker 7 I like my body where I'm kind of like, if it ain't broke, so I don't want to introduce a foreign object to my body and throw the system off.

Speaker 7 But I understand like where cardboards were supposed to eat meat. My body would adapt, but I'm not.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't start with a Porterhouse steak.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I would start light. You know, have you, have you eaten fish at all?

Speaker 7 Everyone, no, like

Speaker 6 nothing ever, ever.

Speaker 2 I'd start there, you know, honestly. Yeah, listen, if you decide to go down this route, I'm sure there's plenty of literature you can read and smart ways of doing it.

Speaker 7 And everybody has their own opinion on it.

Speaker 2 So, well, yeah, but I would go with the experts. I would listen to the dietary experts.

Speaker 7 The person that's wanting to cook it and break it for me. So, yeah, and that's the thing, too, where my mental hurdle of should I do this for

Speaker 7 this this man in my life to see if things will work out better? Should I just do it just in general to take that off the plate within relationships?

Speaker 7 Or should I stick to my guns and just when I want to, it'll come.

Speaker 2 Here's my opinion. Just my opinion.
You definitely shouldn't do it for a man.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's what I figured.

Speaker 2 And the reason is because one, you know, like you're dating a guy, you don't know where it's going to go. You don't know if he's the person, yada, yada.
You're not doing it for him.

Speaker 2 But you have noticed a repetitive problem. You have chosen to live in this community.
You've made this choice. You moved to Wyoming.
You fell in love with it.

Speaker 2 You can go on and on about the things that you like. It makes you happy, right? And everything that, you know, life is full of sacrifices all the time.

Speaker 2 So you're not doing it for a man or men in general. You're, you're doing it for you.
Right. And you have to make that choice between like, what makes me the most happiest, right?

Speaker 2 I want to find love someday.

Speaker 2 I'm assuming that's true, right? Like, you know, you, what in

Speaker 2 you want to find love, you know, you have relate long-term relationship goals. Yeah, and you, and ideally, you really love where you live.

Speaker 2 And, and you recognize that, like, where you live and the place that makes you happy in terms of location, there's one little hiccup, and that is, is a very rural place with a lot of like hunting men who like only eat meat.

Speaker 2 And then, and the environment in which you live in isn't conducive for a vegetarian diet.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you want to get all like really deep and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like back in like, you know, caveman days or whatever, like, you know, way back in the day, people adapted to their environments, right?

Speaker 2 People might have been like, you know, communities were like more carnivores because like the only place, you know, where they could eat was to hunt.

Speaker 2 Or some, you know, some communities ate more fish, you know, you know, plant-based or whatever because of like the soil was rich in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And on some level.

Speaker 2 Even though it's 2025, that's the predicament. That's where you have to adapt to the environment, right?

Speaker 2 And the environment that you've decided you want to live in is an environment that's very inconvenient for vegetarians.

Speaker 7 Yeah, even in social settings, not just romantic. It's such a big deal.
Anytime I'm hanging out with friends, and I mean, food is just a central part of social gatherings.

Speaker 7 And I don't even bring it up to people. I just like bring my own food or eat beforehand.
And I'm just there to socialize. And all of a sudden, it's like.

Speaker 7 walking around with the scarlet letter of like, look at the vegetarian. And that part's getting exhausting as well.

Speaker 2 No one likes someone who brings a Tupperware to a party. You know what I'm saying? Like, my sister's a holistic nutritionist and like it's just

Speaker 2 the whole thing. I mean, I'm joking, but like, yeah, like it's just.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's true, though. And especially again, where I am, it's just such an extreme, extreme version of it, where it's not just the gluten-free person or whatever.

Speaker 7 It's the vegetarian in meat country.

Speaker 2 Yeah. If you called me up, right? And you were like, I've been a vegetarian my whole life.
I really like this guy. I moved to Wyoming for college.
I'm not staying here my whole life. It's temporary.

Speaker 2 I'm definitely going to leave this place at some point. I've been like, just ride it out, bring your Tupperware, date who you date, you know, maybe to work out.
It probably won't.

Speaker 2 This is, you're probably not going to find your person in this place, but you want to stay in this place. You know, that

Speaker 2 the only thing that sounds like you're certain of is that you love where you live and you want to, and you want to stay here as far as you know.

Speaker 2 So.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And for now, and I would be willing to consider.

Speaker 7 moving at some point if it does seem like, because even still, like I said, I live in Wyoming, the least populated state and i'm in one of the least populated counties so just the odds of finding my person statistically are lower no matter what what things are out there so should i just move somewhere else and find someone and we always joke like import somebody to where i live now and come back to it or should i keep searching where I am and well I mean yeah you'd have to import a vegetarian and I and that might be more difficult in the place that you live I mean listen all jokes aside like I think I don't even think I want to date a vegetarian either.

Speaker 7 Like, the men I'm attracted to and the general types of vegetarian men that are out there wouldn't even be my type.

Speaker 7 Or should I change my type?

Speaker 2 Your type is your type, you know, to a certain degree. But yeah,

Speaker 2 there's exceptions to every rule. And I think sometimes maybe as men get older, they might change their diet.
You know, like I have a friend who he only eats fish. He cut out red meat out of his diet.

Speaker 2 You know, he's still a man, you know, but like it's just more he's, he's, he's realized that this makes him feel better, whatever. He, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a life choice.

Speaker 2 But yeah, and listen, you can always go back to being a vegetarian.

Speaker 2 I do, listen, it's, but based on your type, I guess what I'm saying is like, yeah, I mean, couples can do it, sure, but it, it's, it sucks. It, it sucks.

Speaker 2 I mean, every day, Nelly and I are like, what do you want for dinner? And the worst part of our day, every day, is deciding what we want for dinner, even though we all like the same things.

Speaker 2 And our biggest problem is like, because we have like, we love what we love and we have a somewhat limited palate.

Speaker 2 And it's just like, you know, we, we have like, we're busy and it's just like, can we, let's just make what we know we will like instead of like making something new or whatever.

Speaker 2 And so like every day it's like, do we have tacos again or do we have kale salad again? But like, again, it's already a difficult decision.

Speaker 2 If every day it was like, what do you want and what do I want? And like, again, you do, you feel less connected. Like, I know it's, it's not fun to date someone with a completely different diet.

Speaker 2 It's just not. It's just not.
And like, you know what that's like, right? It's not fun for you. It's not fun for them.

Speaker 7 And I can't blame someone for that. So yeah.

Speaker 7 But part, I know how ridiculous it's going to sound, but to give you an idea of just my stubbornness and the fact that it has been my entire life, not just like 10 years,

Speaker 7 I've never used the bathroom on an airplane before ever in my life. And I have traveled all across the world.
And it's just like a stubbornness thing. I have had to pee on planes.
I know.

Speaker 7 I just pee on a freaking airplane, but I was like, I've never done it. I don't want to do it.

Speaker 7 So if I'm that stubborn about peeing on an airplane for something as big as being a vegetarian my entire life, I feel like that's going to be a hard streak to break.

Speaker 7 And then look back thinking, I ate meat because of this for this person or whatever. It's just going to be something I live with and think about for the rest of my life.

Speaker 7 But I also might feel like I have missed out on this for 27 years.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is a perspective thing. You have to change your perspective.
You said the word streak,

Speaker 2 which tells me that, like, you're like, you remind me of the person.

Speaker 2 Like, I bet there's a movie out there that everyone's seen that you haven't, haven't and you love fucking reminding people well i just don't really watch movies at all okay well but you get what i'm saying like there's you know you kind of you yeah you kind of like the narrative of having never eaten meat at some point you you like telling people you've never peed on a plane it's like your thing you know what i'm saying like yeah and if you really needed to you would you would pee on a plane or your bladder would explode so as much as you had to pee and as much as you held it like your life was never on the line and you just like sucked it up and you kind of like the narrative right so if you're gonna do this like who no and i can no one cares but you you know what i'm saying like no one cares yeah anecdotally it's been fun for me if i eat meat people will care it'll be like a huge deal and a huge celebration that part is gonna be a whole you get what i'm saying but your mental hurdle is like it's the streak of i've never eaten meat and now i i will no longer be able to say i've never eaten meat Yeah, is that and the moment that I do eat the meat will just be so prominent of I'm overthinking it and wanting it to be the right reason and not be like, I ate this for this guy and it didn't work out with him.

Speaker 2 I can't believe I did that. Well, good.
Well, the reason is a community.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Or like, I allowed my friend to cook it for me, not my own father.
Like, shouldn't he have the honor?

Speaker 7 But I'm just, because it's been 27 years of buildup, it's becoming a bigger deal to me than it probably should be. Where I should just try it.
If I like it, great.

Speaker 7 If I don't, or should I force myself to eat it and like it to give me a chance at

Speaker 2 opening the door to more things.

Speaker 2 Stop making making it some sort of ceremony or a big deal. If other people want to make it a big deal, let them make a big deal.
But it's not a rite of passage.

Speaker 2 That'd be super fucking weird if, in my opinion, no offense, to like have your dad cook your first meat meal as some sort of symbolic gesture. It's not that deep.

Speaker 2 Like one day you decided to try meat. And if you decided to try it and you're like, this is fucking gross and disgusting.

Speaker 2 And you, let's say you never have meat again, like you can decide internally to make that a big deal and make make that a thing to yourself and be like, I can't believe I tried meat. And

Speaker 2 no one cares. That is a narrative that you have held on to.
That is something that has made you feel special. It's an ego-driven thought.

Speaker 2 It doesn't do anything for you other than it gives you something to like pine over and like ruminate over and attach an identity to. You can find other identities.
No one cares. but you, right?

Speaker 2 So you just need to let that shit go, really, you know, like be pragmatic about this decision. You know, again, it's not for another person.

Speaker 2 It doesn't have to be a ceremony and you can always stop eating meat. But right now, it's the choice and the decision is clear.
I love my community.

Speaker 2 As far as I know, if all things being equal, I would love to invest in this place where I live and build a life here. Yeah, there are limited men.
And so that might change. you know, where I live.

Speaker 2 And also like the diet is like, you know, forget about men I date, just like being involved and embracing this community, like as crazy as it sounds, like it's not very conducive for someone with a vegetarian diet.

Speaker 2 So I'm choosing this community over this personal thing that I have. And I'm, I, I want to do that because I'm doing it for the community.
And I'm doing, I'm doing it for me.

Speaker 2 You're doing it for you at the end of the day. It's not for any at the end of the day.
If you want to find love and you do it for a guy, you're doing it for you.

Speaker 2 Whether that works out with the guy or not, you didn't do it for them. You did it because you want to be with them and you did it for you.

Speaker 7 That does make sense. So I just don't know then where, where to start.
And again, that's kind of me overthinking of it. If I should

Speaker 2 go

Speaker 7 to who I'm, well, yeah, that might be the first step.

Speaker 7 Break all the streaks.

Speaker 7 Where, yeah, I should, I just don't know where to start or who, who and how to break. It's not like it's something I can just do in my home because I don't know how to cook meat.

Speaker 7 I don't even have meat in my refrigerator where it does need to involve another person. Okay.
And so what person should that be? Where should I start?

Speaker 7 And I helped one of my friends hike out an elk that she shot. Again, all back to the elk.
It's big hunting out here.

Speaker 2 I went to the house.

Speaker 7 I helped a friend hike out her elk. That,

Speaker 2 huh? I would start with chicken.

Speaker 7 Well, see, everybody has their opinion. So people out here say start with the elk.
Other people say chicken and then fish.

Speaker 7 And so I just feel connected to this elk that I helped her hike out of knowing where it came from, all that. But there's so many types of meat out there.
I don't know what to try.

Speaker 7 And I don't want to go to McDonald's and try a chicken nugget for the first one.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I wouldn't do that either.

Speaker 7 So it's where, yeah, where to start if I do decide to go this route.

Speaker 2 My opinion is I wouldn't ask,

Speaker 2 despite you doing it this free community, I wouldn't ask the people in your community. I get why they're, they think elk, right?

Speaker 2 That's really part of their, but like, listen, you could definitely enjoy, you know, try to eat some kind of meat and find a couple, let's say it's chicken and fish.

Speaker 2 And if all you ate was chicken and fish, that makes it so much easier for anyone you date, even your elk eating boyfriend. Because like, I I bet he likes chicken, right?

Speaker 2 And elk, I don't know, maybe it's a tasty meat. I'm guessing it has a similar like consistency of venison, which is kind of like steak, whatever.

Speaker 2 But, like, it's, you know, it's a reason why, like, most people aren't eating elk because it's like not the tastiest, you know, of the meat categories.

Speaker 2 You know, maybe I'm speaking out of turn not to offend anyone in the Wyoming area.

Speaker 6 Yeah, careful.

Speaker 2 I just make it easy on yourself, right? I would probably start with fish or, or, or, yeah, or, or, or chicken, because it's, like, it's, it's easier to digest.

Speaker 2 I'm guessing elk is a tougher meat, probably

Speaker 7 again i'm not the expert on meat so probably

Speaker 7 i don't know what it's going to do to my body and

Speaker 7 well my my girlfriend my ex-girlfriend who i made she didn't you know she tried processed sausage and she didn't explode so you'll be fine okay great but and then i don't know how i guess how long do you think i should give it a chance for if i i eat it i don't like it do i just keep keep eating it until i convince myself i like it or what does the smell of meat dude for you not much because that's the thing i'm not intrinsically like oof, I wish I could have that.

Speaker 7 Because if I did, I would have. Again, I don't have big enough reasons not to.

Speaker 2 Have you ever tried beaten? Like bacon obviously smells good. Oh, yeah.
I was going to say, you should

Speaker 2 try bacon.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I haven't tried it, but obviously it always smells good.

Speaker 2 Most importantly, all you really need to do is from a from a digestive standpoint and just like a wellness standpoint, I would do some research.

Speaker 2 And there's probably a lot of information out there because you're not the first person to go on this journey.

Speaker 2 What's the easiest path forward for your digestive system to incorporate protein into your diet for the very first time? And from there, experiment.

Speaker 2 Go to a restaurant. Try something out.
You know, try some fish.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And obviously it's around me everywhere to just try it off of someone's plate.

Speaker 7 And I am going to a doctor in like a couple of weeks just to get normal blood tests and stuff done, where I do want to ask them, like, am I super deficient in something that you think meat would help supplement?

Speaker 7 Or, because again, on the outside,

Speaker 7 I feel like I'm healthy, but maybe I am missing certain things things that would be helpful to have.

Speaker 2 Maybe, but that to me, that sounds like you're looking for another reason. Justification.
Yes. Just you're doing it.

Speaker 2 You're doing it for your community. It's that like, why isn't that enough for you? Okay.

Speaker 7 Because it's scary because I feel like I'm not doing it for myself. I'm doing it for others in the pure pressure of others and not because I smell the hamburger and want the hamburger.

Speaker 6 Fine.

Speaker 2 But again, I'm just, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like, you really love where you live, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 And if you could make this place where you live work for the rest of your life, you, you would, you would, would, right?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right. And like, I think.
Well, yeah, you're right. That might change.
But as you sit here today, you would, right? You know, if there were, definitely.

Speaker 2 If there were enough, if there, you could find a good option, you know, if you could find a life partner who also wanted to live here, you like this place.

Speaker 7 For sure. Yeah.
And I would, yeah. If I, I think that's the missing piece is the partner and the person where I have.
most everything else I need and want where I am. It's just finding that person.

Speaker 7 And I'm feeling like my vegetarianism and the place I live is making me more undatable and having these casual relationships with people where I just want to take the me being a vegetarian out of the equation.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, listen, like, it's for you, it's, it's fascinating, just like story, just because again, it really paints you as an outsider.
It really does.

Speaker 2 You know, if you lived in LA, you wouldn't be dealing with this problem. You'd fit right in.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 And that's the thing, too. When I go other places, I'm like, oh, I'm not.
I don't have a scarlet letter on.

Speaker 7 When I go to Colorado, there's whole vegetarian-only restaurants where I am amongst my people and can eat everything on the menu. Whereas

Speaker 6 you live is no.

Speaker 2 And that's what I'm saying. Own the decision.
Own it. I love this place.
I love living here. I really like it.
It's not perfect. If it was perfect, everyone would be a vegetarian.

Speaker 2 They'd have vegetarian restaurants, that'd be more men. But despite it not being perfect, I really love it.
And I want to make this place work. How do I make this place work? All right.

Speaker 2 Well, it's not.

Speaker 7 And I guess I have lived where I live since I was 20 years old. So I've lived there for going on to eight years now where I really haven't in my chosen adult life.

Speaker 7 Well, I've lived seasonally in other places, but I've always been drawn back to this where I live now, where I don't know if I should try living somewhere else to come back or if I should just, again, stick to my roots, feel confident in my decisions of living in this first place I ever found and just being lucky I found it so young.

Speaker 7 And then, like you're saying, kind of adapt to the lifestyle that's there.

Speaker 2 I think there's a huge difference between doing things for a man or a woman, depending on who you date, and doing something for yourself

Speaker 2 because you want to find a person to spend your life with. And maybe you've recognized something that makes it harder for people to connect with you in general, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 This isn't a one-off situation where one guy really didn't like your vegetarian diet, right? This is a theme, not just for the men that you date, but the people you interact with, your community.

Speaker 2 It's something that is a huge inconvenience for you, your diet in the community with the current right right

Speaker 7 so wouldn't it be for you yeah and that's why too I was kind of thinking of rephrasing my the question of should I change being vegetarian for a man because I'm like yeah no I shouldn't do that for a man but for myself to have a chance at uh

Speaker 7 finding finding love and a better option again to take that out of the equation and to better connect with friends because they even again on the social friendship level i have friends who gather for for dinners and they had uh like wings and buns party and all these things that I'm good friends with them, but they don't invite me because I'm not going to eat their food.

Speaker 7 So why would I go to the food central event where I'm like, I would still come, but I am the girl bringing a Tupperware or not eating.

Speaker 7 And so to be even more socially included and feeling welcome would also be nice.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And again, that's why, you know, you're adapting to your environment, which everyone has to do. of adapting

Speaker 7 it's so scary

Speaker 2 you know life is all about changing i do think you enjoy being different, which is a fine quality to a certain extent, but it sounds like to even a detriment.

Speaker 2 Like, you like telling people, you love telling people you've never peed on a plane. It's like a fun anecdote you like sharing.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it is.

Speaker 7 At once, people's mind are blown. So, yeah.

Speaker 2 But at once, it was just like.

Speaker 7 But again, nobody cares.

Speaker 6 No one cares.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And at first, you did it because you had this weird phobia about germs or whatever, and it turned into a thing.

Speaker 2 And then you would tell people and people would be like, no way, never, not once. And they'd ask you a bunch of follow-up questions.
You'd be like, Nope, not even then.

Speaker 2 And like, it made you feel like the center of attention for a period of time. And you like that.
And like, that again is just an ego thing. And like, you got to let that shit go.

Speaker 2 And if the fact that you would be hanging on to that in lieu of like feeling more involved in the community that you love and making you feel more a part of the place that you'd like to build a life is a little nuts.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 7 Pretty good at psychoanalysis of myself, I would say.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm here to help.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, take it slow. Don't, and so again, you having your dad, you know, like that's doing it for your, do it for yourself.
Go on your own journey. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Talk to some, talk to your doctor, talk to a couple of dietitianary experts, read a couple things online. Do not ask men that you're dating or people in your community.

Speaker 2 You know, they're going to serve you elk. You know, if you want to eat elk for the first time, eat elk for the first time.
But do it for yourself and do it by yourself.

Speaker 2 And then don't make some big announcement.

Speaker 7 that that maybe would be like a challenge for you to like yeah check your ego at the door and and make sure that you're not doing it for you i don't think i would tell anyone if i did it or i would keep it under wraps for a while because i don't if it's not something i'm planning to keep doing like i want to know it's going to be i like it and be continued part of my diet where i mean i mean maybe again that's part of the ego thing of i don't want people to know i broke the streak or whatever but i some more don't want them to celebrate this big hoo-ha thing and everybody make it it's such a big deal that they finally won and made the 27 year long vegetarian change teams yeah whatever that's just people having fun but you got to let that go that's really your stubborn you know you're yeah you've you've created too much of an identity price wrongheadedness well yeah i mean it's more you've created too much of an identity around it an identity that really hasn't gotten you anywhere you know certainly not with the places you know well because it's been an identity for so long and i've i've made it work in so many places i studied abroad in africa i've i've traveled all around and even in college it's like i have maintained this through my whole life in hard situations where again i think it's a stubbornness it's hard again where i live but why can't i keep making it work but i think changing that perspective to more of a it would be more to embrace my community than

Speaker 2 adapting for something or someone else or breaking the streak and all that and you can always go back You can always go to those vegan only restaurants in Colorado if you want to.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? Like it's, yeah, this is not some sort of like point of no return decision you're making. It's an arbitrary streak that you've added unnecessary value to in your life.

Speaker 2 It's a mental hurdle. And that's something you're willing to consider for yourself to make some of your other goals in life more obtainable.

Speaker 7 Yeah, no, I agree. I just be interested to see too what happens once I like have the fork in front of my face where it's easy to talk about it.

Speaker 7 But then once I'm sitting down on whatever I I choose to eat, I don't know if I'll have a visceral reaction all of a sudden be like, oh my gosh, I really actually don't want to do this.

Speaker 7 Or if I'll be like, yeah, I'll be, I mean, I have to do it to see, I suppose.

Speaker 2 I mean, interesting enough, and we have to go, but not at one point have you voiced like, oh, I'm really going to feel bad about like eating that pig or elk.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying the reason you started being a vegetarian in the first place was because of this love for animals.

Speaker 2 And clearly, mentally, you've worked through that where like, I think you maybe just recognize that like, you know, there's a way of doing it and the way of not doing it.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure you want to, if you do start eating meat, you'll probably want to source meat that comes from a ethical place or things like that.

Speaker 2 But, you know, you've, you're over the mental, you have a new mental hurdle, right? So even the reason you became a vegetarian in the first place isn't the reason you're still a vegetarian today.

Speaker 2 And I think that's something to note.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And I think I would still want to source it ethically. Like, again, I'm not going to go to McDonald's and have chicken nuggets and all that.

Speaker 7 I don't think I'll ever necessarily get to that level, maybe after years of eating more ethically sourced meat.

Speaker 7 But again, where I live, you can go to the grocery store and buy beef that was literally grown in the backyard and hunting and elk and all those things.

Speaker 7 Like most of the stuff where I live is locally and ethically sourced. And that would be where I want to start.

Speaker 7 I don't want, I don't want the bacon that came from some nightmare slaughterhouses that we hear about.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So, yeah.

Speaker 7 But I still, I still don't know once that fork is in my mouth if I will all of a sudden be like, oh, no, I do love. animals as much as I did when I was three years old and made this decision.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you do, you know, but like, you know.

Speaker 2 but eating them doesn't make me love them any less correct i suppose correct all right well keep us posted we would all love to know if yeah you find i will i will let you know once the the fork hits my mouth i suppose you know i think this is a really interesting moment for you and i think there's a diets aside there's there's some like other things going on about yourself and why you see the world the way you do and why you make some of the decisions that like i think something to reflect on you know yeah absolutely and i do appreciate your perspective of somebody not from my community where everyone in my community is just like, just eat it, just eat it.

Speaker 7 And doesn't really see my perspective. Or again, like this ego-driven streak stuff where, yeah, I appreciate your perspective on

Speaker 7 it from an outside party and a relationship expert, I suppose.

Speaker 2 I don't want to call myself an expert, but

Speaker 2 hopefully you found the advice helpful. All right.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I absolutely did. Awesome.
Thank you so much, Nick. All right.
Take care.

Speaker 2 Please keep us posted.

Speaker 7 Yep, I absolutely will. Take care.

Speaker 2 Take care. Bye-bye.

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Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 10 Good. How are you? I'm Lauren.
I'm 26.

Speaker 6 I'm Jim, and I'm also 26.

Speaker 10 And we wonder how to tell our friend that we don't want to hang out with him anymore.

Speaker 2 Okay. All right.
Who's are you guys a couple?

Speaker 10 Yes, we're engaged.

Speaker 2 Okay, congratulations. And Jim, is this your, is it like your,

Speaker 2 how do you guys know this person?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I guess he was connected to me originally. So I guess I could take the context from the top.
We knew him in college. He was kind of a fringe part of our college friend group.

Speaker 6 For example, I lived in a house with eight guys. However, he wasn't in the house group chat, for example.
However, he was in a different group chat with about 20 people. So a little bit on the fringe.

Speaker 6 Sometimes we asked him to hang out out of pity. Sometimes he would ask us to hang out a lot.

Speaker 6 However, a lot of people in the group didn't like hanging out with him because he would talk about himself a lot. He would talk about going to law school all the time.

Speaker 6 For example, he posted all of his acceptance letters in the 20-person group chat that I mentioned before. He talked about scholarship money, his prestigious internship, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 6 So he got on our nerves a lot, but we often hung out with him because we felt bad that he didn't have many other friends to hang out with, kind of making a long story short there.

Speaker 6 We'll fast forward a little bit to after graduation.

Speaker 6 We both, my fiancé and I moved to a big city after school, and he happened to be there and we connected up with him and things were a bit different this time.

Speaker 6 He had a girlfriend who had the same credentials that he had. She went to the same law school as he did, and she ended up working at the same firm.

Speaker 6 So we ended up liking hanging out with him because we thought she toned him down a lot. She would call him out if he started talking about law too much and she'd say like, hey guys,

Speaker 6 hey, Max, which is his fake name. No one cares.

Speaker 6 So,

Speaker 6 however, over the last summer, things with that relationship started to become a little rocky and he started to ask to hang out with us a lot more, reminding us of what happened in college.

Speaker 6 Really, he started to ask us to hang out every week, and we really don't have that kind of time or energy to be able to be that type of person for him.

Speaker 6 Last fall, so we follow our school's football team very closely, as does he, and we would go to the bar to watch the game, and he knew that.

Speaker 6 we would almost every week go to the bar and watch the game with him and he has seemed to think that after the football season that this weekly weekly hangout can continue. And we

Speaker 6 don't really know how to tell him that we hung out with him every week because we made time for the football game rather than for himself.

Speaker 6 And I guess I would wrap up with just a couple examples of what we're dealing with. One, he makes reservations for us without us telling him that we could actually hang out on that day or go.

Speaker 6 A different example was we thought he genuinely once tried to trick us into hanging out with both Friday and saturday that no i'm not going to be in town saturday and then i said at the beginning you know i really think he is going to be in town saturday i don't want to hang out friday and then magically he was in fact in town saturday and we saw him on saturday so yeah that's the that's the context and we we don't necessarily want to break up with him as a friend however we just are tired of saying no all the time we're tired of making up excuses and then we also don't want to just hang out with him basically out of charity either.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 yeah, this is kind of our dilemma.

Speaker 2 If I'm understanding your, your goal, like you said, is to not necessarily break up with him if you didn't have to, but to try to get through to him and communicate to him the way he is makes it difficult to have a relationship with him.

Speaker 2 And you're hoping to do that in a way that, A, he can receive it. And B, you know, not break his heart or hurt his feelings or something.

Speaker 10 It just constantly toes the line of we hang out with him because we feel so bad for him. Um, you know, we may not want to, and like we don't hate him, it's just that we feel so bad.

Speaker 10 So, we agreed to have plans with him, but then you know, it's like every single week, it's not an exaggeration.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't see my parents that often is he no longer with this girl, right?

Speaker 10 No, they broke up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what does this guy have going for him, and what does he not have going for him?

Speaker 6 He has stable employment, he has a dog. Um, we live in a big city, so there's okay, there's a lot going on.
However, we don't think he has many other friends to hang out with.

Speaker 6 He doesn't have many other friends from college to hang out with, from

Speaker 6 grad school, from high school to hang out with. That's why I think he keeps coming back to us.
And it's a really big role for us.

Speaker 2 Does he, when you're with him, does he constantly mostly talk about himself?

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah, he's fallen back into that habit.

Speaker 2 And usually complaining about like how he's a victim of

Speaker 2 various circumstances.

Speaker 10 A mixture of like complaining about stuff, but also just kind of like flexing the lawyer-ness on us or of all these cases that he's worked on.

Speaker 6 Or look how many hours I worked this past week. And we heard from a different friend who's also a lawyer, and we told them the firm, we have no idea about the prestige of law firms.

Speaker 6 And we thought he worked at this top-notch firm, but apparently it's pretty solidly mid-tier. So I guess that's another example.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it sounds like someone who, like, for whatever reason, lacks some confidence in himself. And that has, yeah, and that has turned into

Speaker 2 him kind of being

Speaker 2 obnoxious,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 kind of.

Speaker 2 It's funny because the way you're describing this friend, someone I know popped into my mind. I guess I would call them a friend.
I don't spend a lot of time with this person anymore.

Speaker 2 They're also a lawyer.

Speaker 2 I don't know if that's a coincidence or not.

Speaker 2 This particular friend is like a great looking guy too, right? He's like, he's 6'2, great head of hair. Just, I mean, he's hot.
He's a hottie. He's insufferable to be around.
He's this absolutely,

Speaker 2 he's an absolute nightmare. And he's really been unlucky in love.
And the truth,

Speaker 2 he's the problem. He is definitely the problem, you know? And I don't know if I haven't talked to him in a while.

Speaker 2 I don't know how self-aware he is, but like he has has pushed a lot of people away just because like his own narcissism in a way, like, you know, he's justifies complaining or talking about himself, either because like he feels like he's a victim of some kind of mistreatment or yada, yada, yada, or, or, you know, he's projecting, you know, he doesn't feel like he's getting enough recognition from his circle of influence.

Speaker 2 So he's constantly like talking about his accolades because no one else, you know, it's like it's coming from a place.

Speaker 2 But like this particular person, like I know a lot of people just were not able to get through this guy, and you know, as a result, it's life's been harder on him.

Speaker 2 Have you guys ever like tried to sit him down friend to friend and level with him?

Speaker 6 Not directly, no,

Speaker 6 some indirect messaging doesn't seem to work. So,

Speaker 6 I guess there's another lawyer that we're friends with, and we say, Hi, hey,

Speaker 6 fill-in girl's name that I can't think of. Why don't we hear about your job? And I guess a subtle joke doesn't really land.

Speaker 6 So, So,

Speaker 6 we, I think, internally are probably in the place where, yeah, a more direct conversation is probably

Speaker 6 in store because

Speaker 6 more subtle ways of doing so or trying to get him to take a hint is probably not going to work at this point.

Speaker 2 If he hasn't taken a hint yet, he's not going to take a hint.

Speaker 10 Is also just not wanting to like completely break up with him because we do think that he's so alone is just like not like breaking his heart totally, you know.

Speaker 10 Like I said, it just keeps towing the line of like, we feel so bad for him, but we know we need to do this.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean,

Speaker 2 as I see it, you could break up with him or you can have some kind of like intervention in a way. It may ultimately lead to a breakup.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I think right now you guys are, you guys are like, you feel a little bit of this guilt. You feel a little bit of this loyalty to him despite like, you know, really not loving his company.

Speaker 2 You just like you've, you've been able to empathize with the fact that like, clearly this guy is lacking some sort of social skills for whatever reason that like you know yeah you feel for the guy right but like these are his problems and you know clearly he's smart enough he's a lawyer right like he's not incapable of figuring this out he just hasn't you know i don't know either someone hasn't gotten through to him you know i don't know about his childhood or what his high school life was like or i don't know but like he's got a personality trait that rubs people the wrong way and good on you guys that you've been able to stick it out longer than most people have for whatever reason yeah I think honestly it's important to note that the law school he went to is in our current city too so like you don't have any law school friends or you know you went to this big high school also and you don't know anybody from there that currently lives in our city like I mean he pushes kind of all adds up

Speaker 2 he pushes people away right he's

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 What you guys have going for you in terms of you ever go down like the quote unquote intervention route, so to speak, and maybe that's like like a heavy word, but just kind of leveling with you, you know, being direct, right?

Speaker 2 Is that you two are an engaged couple.

Speaker 2 And I don't expect someone like him to like recognize that, but maybe even pointing it out where one, like as an engaged couple, like you guys need to prioritize each other, quality time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you guys are still really young.

Speaker 2 So like, obviously a lot of engaged couples in your spot face are still going out with their friends and still doing their thing, but you kind of have like an excuse in a way that like sometimes you're not looking for the third wheel, you know, you're just looking to like

Speaker 2 be with each other. And anyone, anyone should kind of acknowledge or recognize that, right? So you kind of have a little bit of a built-in excuse there too when you don't want to do things.

Speaker 2 If I were you, I would, I would try to talk to the guy, you know, and just level with him and just say, Matt, you know, we got to talk.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, for one, and like with like anything else, it's just like you get a lead with the love, you know, like there's no good way of starting this, but you're just like, hey, listen, like one, sometimes we feel bad that like we are unavailable when you want to hang out.

Speaker 2 For one, obviously we're engaged and like we're just sometimes we just prefer to be with each other and not and no one else. It's not a you versus anyone else.
It's just like we want to be alone.

Speaker 2 But like, listen, like as your friends, like we just. Wanted to point, I mean, it's a tough conversation.
He's probably not going to receive it well. I don't know.

Speaker 2 But like the hope, the hope is, is that like you're able to like say something where even if he doesn't take it all that well, that like he wants to do something about it. I don't know.

Speaker 2 Like, I've had to develop better skills in my life, you know, like there have been periods of my time where I've been so caught up in my own bullshit that people didn't enjoy my company.

Speaker 2 I was only talking about me, you know, whether it was my heartbreak or this or that. And I think we all go through periods of being a little self-centered and kind of in our own shit sometimes.

Speaker 2 And sometimes we need a wake-up call. Sometimes it needs a friend being like, You've been kind of a dick lately.

Speaker 2 His problem is that, like, you've never, you've never known this guy to not be this kind of like obnoxious person.

Speaker 6 That's the problem. It's been going on for a very long time.
You think that it would grow out of it, but it's probably part of the time in his life right now going through a breakup.

Speaker 6 But the problem is, is that we've seen this pattern before, and that this isn't just a one-time thing. He'll get through it.
He'll get through with this. It's, oh, we think this is who he actually is.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that is who. Like, if, and when you say that, what do you mean? Like, who is he?

Speaker 10 I guess just kind of like what we talked about, where when he was with his girlfriend, we felt like she toned him down a lot, right?

Speaker 10 Because she, you know, could also say the same things to us about being a lawyer and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 10 But, you know, she would call him out and like, he didn't feel like, I guess, as prestigious, you know, when there was another lawyer sitting next to him in the room.

Speaker 10 But like, now when it's just him, like, then he can just, you know, blab about his lawyerness to us

Speaker 10 or like other narcissistic things.

Speaker 2 Have you ever said, you know, just like, we don't care?

Speaker 6 Occasionally.

Speaker 10 Yeah,

Speaker 10 I think actually, you know, he'll be like, I'm, I'm working on this big case. And we're like, cool, you know, but I think it just flies right over his head.

Speaker 6 Or maybe he takes it as a joke. but we actually 90% mean it seriously.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, he clearly is lacking validation in his life. That is for sure.

Speaker 6 Yeah, he it always seems like he's trying to prove something. And I feel like he's trying to prove himself through his career, I guess.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Is he good looking?

Speaker 10 He's short, but I wouldn't say he's bad looking.

Speaker 6 Yeah, he's definitely not bad looking.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 But he's shorter.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 I mean, listen, it's a tough situation you're in, but you kind of have nothing to lose because, like, here, the way I see it is like eventually, well, at this point, he's not changing, right?

Speaker 2 He's in in his mid-20s. As long as you've known him, he's always been this way.
So, short of something happening, he's going to be like this.

Speaker 2 And you two seem like you're at the end of your rope. And despite feeling bad,

Speaker 2 eventually you're just going to slowly distance yourself from him and break up with him. Right.

Speaker 2 So, the way you should look at it is like, well, you're going to have nothing to lose. And you can try to go in there with love.

Speaker 2 And maybe, you know, Lauren, you can, from a woman's standpoint, try to play a similar role, like a sister in a way that like his girlfriend did, be like, hey, listen, we loved Jenny, but you pushed her away, man.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, you just like, listen, you have to create space for other people. Like, when was the last time you asked us about our days or our jobs? Like, you are only talking about yourself.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, you, at some point, you have to call them out.
It's just like you, you push people away. And I know that like you like having connections with people.

Speaker 2 Like we enjoy you sometimes, but like you sometimes make it difficult and you sometimes you often make it only about you.

Speaker 2 And whether it's hanging out with us or finding, you know, all your other friends or, you know, your next girlfriend, you know, we want you to show them all your great qualities, you know.

Speaker 2 If you're going to have this intervention, you have to be prepared to come with some compliments and some things that like are going to make him feel good about himself.

Speaker 2 And you're going to want him to try to say yeah i need to allow people to see these things in me you know rather than tell them you know and show them and you could you could be like i we want to help you you know we're friends of yours we see the good in you we can't listen sometimes we need you to understand that like we only want to be with each other And that includes not being with you or anyone else.

Speaker 2 But like you didn't say, like sometimes we feel like you've become like our little like third wheel. And in a way, we love you.
You're, you're, you know, and I'd be careful calling them family.

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 you know but yeah but like we're we can't always be there for you and almost try to help them that way where you're coming from a place of love and then hit them with some hard truths that's it I mean it's an uphill battle because you are just friends you're not a girlfriend you're not a family member

Speaker 2 you're not even that close you're just the closest people he has because you guys have the biggest hearts and you haven't had the hearts to break up with them yet yeah i would also say some happen stance that we happen to be living near in the same city, which is where we went to school.

Speaker 6 So yeah, but you're right.

Speaker 6 We could have breaken up with him by now, but it's hard because we feel bad for him.

Speaker 2 So you got to stop with the press, passive aggressiveness, and you got to stop with hoping he picks up on the jokes and you got to hope he picks up on the cues. He clearly doesn't.

Speaker 2 He needs like he, what he picked, he does, he is giving you an example of what he picks up on, and that is direct feedback from a girlfriend that says, hey, stop it. No one cares.

Speaker 2 and at least there's hope there's hope that he has at least in those moments it sounds like he has responded well i'm guessing part of the reason they broke up is that like she got tired of being the only of of of having to constantly remind him to be human and it got exhausting which is a shame you know at some point he needs to recognize the truth that he has a way of pushing people away And I think just like going back to how he said this has been an ongoing thing for, you know, over five years, five to 10 years now, is just that because he didn't really have that group of friends, you know, in college or maybe ever, I feel like he kind of thinks that, like, now we can have this big college group friend and like you know, those people that see each other every day, and like that's just like not normal in adult life.

Speaker 2 Not for two engaged couples, yeah.

Speaker 2 It would be normal if he could find like four other bros who are also single and like who also wanted to go out, but like he he's obnoxious, you know, he needs to care more about other people, he needs to like, literally, you should be like, we're here for you to practice on, but like,

Speaker 2 I mean, seriously, he needs to never, like, stop talking about yourself around us. Let people ask you.
No one asks you about you because you never give them a chance.

Speaker 2 You just come in guns ablazing, assuming they want to know about like mundane things in your life.

Speaker 2 We, listen, everyone, we all have mundane things in our life, you know, and I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, but like you,

Speaker 2 it's just exhausting. What you guys have going for you is I doubt you're the first people to bring this up, but maybe at some point it'll hit home.
I don't know.

Speaker 10 I also think this is just an important conversation to have with him because eventually we're going to have to break the news that he's not invited to Jim's bachelor party.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That'll be tough.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it will be coming at some point, but yeah. There's no way he can come.

Speaker 2 I don't think. Well, I mean,

Speaker 2 I'm not surprised, but just out of curiosity when you you say there's no way why, because he would be that much loved ones.

Speaker 6 I don't want to be driven crazy. I'm on bachelor party.
This is one of my times I can be selfish.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, that's a good answer.
You just got to level with him, man.

Speaker 2 The worst thing that can happen, it's a really awkward, difficult conversation that ends with a lot of hostility from his end.

Speaker 2 But like, if you lead with love, if you come in, you know, knowing that you have to like acknowledge his good qualities and find his good qualities, like my one friend, you you know, I mentioned, like, he is a loyal guy.

Speaker 2 He would always like have like the back of his friends and things like that.

Speaker 2 He gives back in the world, but like he's insufferable to be around because it's always about his insecurities and it's always about like him.

Speaker 2 And it's always a weird thing because he's not the most cocky guy.

Speaker 2 He's actually a really insecure guy, which is weird because he's also like this like, if you saw a picture of him, and you heard about his job, you'd be like, here's this like, you know, lawyer who does very well for himself financially, and he's a great looking guy, and he's just an absolute fucking mess as a human being, you know?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 and because he just put, he's just obnoxious because he just, it's always about him.

Speaker 6 A point that you brought up earlier that's sticking with me is that in the end, we have nothing to lose.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you don't.

Speaker 6 We lose him as a friend, I guess, which is not something I don't think that we're going to really miss that companionship. However, I think it will stick with us in terms of feeling bad for him.

Speaker 6 But, oh, another question I have is: I think it seems like he needs to get help for himself. And we're talking like professional help, like a therapist.
Sure.

Speaker 6 Is that a conversation that we can start, or is that

Speaker 6 an out-of-bounds conversation?

Speaker 2 No, I don't think it's out of balance. I mean, I don't know how he's going to receive it.
And I think you have to word it carefully. You know, like, hey, we think you need therapy.

Speaker 2 Do you guys go to therapy out of curiosity? Either of you? Or you have? I do, yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, I would start there.

Speaker 6 It's been successful.

Speaker 2 He would say, listen, that's the easiest way to get through to someone is to try to connect with them. And that is like, I hit a point in my life where I felt like I was stuck, right?

Speaker 2 And ultimately, I think that's where people go and get therapy because, like, they aren't able to resolve these issues on their own or by talking to friends or whatever. And they feel stuck.

Speaker 2 And they're hoping, like, some third-party professional person who can, like, just talk through some things and offer a new line of perspective, which is why, like, therapist or, like, say, someone like myself, I'm not a therapist, but like, I'm an objective person who won't project onto you guys.

Speaker 2 And that's what friends do. Friends just project.

Speaker 2 You know, friends like don't even realize when they're offering advice, they're just really offering the things that they would really want to hear from themselves.

Speaker 2 And since you're so connected, it's often, you know, it's, it's, it muddies the waters, right?

Speaker 2 So yeah, I think it's absolutely something friends could acknowledge, but it just has to come from a, I think you need, not from, I think you need therapy, but like, this is something that really, really helped me when I felt very stuck, when I was a hard, having a hard time connecting with people or even connecting to Lauren or whatever.

Speaker 2 You can make up whatever you want. Sometimes we feel like you push us away.

Speaker 2 If we're being honest, like there, you know, one, we need you to understand that as an engaged couple, we're like, we're just not going to want to hang out with anyone but each other.

Speaker 2 And two, it does seem like sometimes you don't even, that that doesn't register with you. And I think that's something you need to think of, you know, like that's, that's a problem.

Speaker 2 You need to recognize that as couples, like they might want to spend their own time and like they don't have space for you. But like, listen, like, we've seen you push other people away.

Speaker 2 And it's a real shame because like you do have a lot of nice qualities, but like you really make situations often about you.

Speaker 2 And I don't know where this comes from, but I found for myself that therapy really helped me unpack some stuff.

Speaker 2 And it allowed me to get things off my chest that honestly, like, I usually would do with my friends. And I stopped doing that with people who I didn't need to, you know.

Speaker 2 do it with and like maybe that's something you could look into you know as long as you're coming from a place of love, you guys have nothing to lose, right? Yeah. Don't be mean spirited.

Speaker 2 Don't say things because you know they're going to hurt his feelings. He might say things that hurt your feelings too.

Speaker 2 And that's where you have to like bite that tongue, anticipate it because you're going to hurt his feelings, right? And hurt people hurt people.

Speaker 2 So like, you know, you have to be prepared for that and not lower yourself to his level and just say, hey, listen, man, we're only saying this because, you know.

Speaker 2 We see the good in you and the potential. And we're like, we want you to be happy.
And we, you were happier when you were with, what's her name?

Speaker 2 And I don't know what happened, but do you remember all those times where she would call you out?

Speaker 2 We, we agreed with her, you know, and like you were more fun to hang out with. He's going to react a certain way.
And that it's not really a you problem.

Speaker 2 You know, and the hope is he will reflect, his feelings will calm down. And he'll have to look in the mirror and ask himself, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?

Speaker 2 And happiness is listening to people who took the time to give him a little criticism. That when he like thinks back about what that criticism was, it probably isn't the first time he heard it.

Speaker 2 They weren't mean-spirited, even though it felt mean in the time. And that, I don't know, maybe I should look into get some therapy and figure this shit out because I'm tired of feeling lonely.

Speaker 6 You know, definitely.

Speaker 2 But it's, it's really up to him. But, like, yeah, you have nothing to lose.

Speaker 2 And like, where you can feel better about this decision is most people could have done what you're doing right now and they just chose to quit on them.

Speaker 2 You know, that's true. So, yeah, you're, this is kind of where your guys are at.
Um, when's the bachelor party?

Speaker 6 Not till next spring. We're not getting married till June next year.

Speaker 2 So, you got some time.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 do it sooner than later, you know?

Speaker 6 Yeah, the sooner the better.

Speaker 2 Like, you, I don't, I would love, I wish I could figure out like a good opener for you guys.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 I think we'd have to probably brainstorm that ourselves. Also, a pro a little problem with that.
kind of is

Speaker 6 we mostly hang out with him at bars and restaurants, and that's kind of an awkward place to do that. We don't usually go to each other's apartments, so I feel like are you expecting

Speaker 6 shouting?

Speaker 6 No, I guess what I'm associating going to a bar with sports and beer and TVs is something a little more laid back, relaxed, or trying. We're just trying to enjoy ourselves.
So,

Speaker 6 yeah, I guess that shouldn't be an inhibitor, especially if that's the only context that we do see him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I would definitely like

Speaker 2 invite him to an you know, it doesn't have to be where, you know, just be like, hey, like, it sounds like he'll be down to hang out with you guys.

Speaker 2 So it's be like, you know, you're going to catch him a little bit off guard.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no matter what.

Speaker 2 But it's like, hey, man. Or maybe just wait till he asks you to hang out again.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I would just say, hey, listen, there's something we want to talk to you about. We want you to work on something, you know? And maybe I would use the ex-girlfriend as

Speaker 2 an opener in a way. Where it's just like,

Speaker 2 do you, maybe ask him? Like, do you think you sometimes push people away?

Speaker 10 Yeah, that's fair. I mean, like I said, he, you know, his law school was inner city.

Speaker 10 And I, I've thought about it to myself before, just asking, like, hey, do you ever still hang out with people from law school?

Speaker 2 Well, don't be passive aggressive. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, there's a difference between like, hey, you know, why don't you have friends?

Speaker 2 Which feels a little judgy versus like, hey, have you thought about the fact that like, you know, that sometimes you push people away? And that's a very direct question. It's very specific.

Speaker 2 It's to the point. It's not like, it's not a trick question.
It's just like, you might be like, well, what do you mean? Just be like, well, you know, and don't be passive. You know, it's like you,

Speaker 2 you, you, you know, do you, and if he did, if he pretends, he plays coy, I would just be like, well, you, you do sometimes.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
I have a question. Have you, with your hot lawyer friend, did you ever have a conversation like this with him, or did things kind of just fizzle out?

Speaker 2 It just kind of fizzled out, but because he was really, he was never like that close of a friend. He was more of an acquaintance.

Speaker 2 It never got to that point where, like, put it this way, if I were in your shoes with him, I would say, I would have said something.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it never got to that point, but I just, it fizzled out organically. And we were never that close, you know?

Speaker 2 So, like, but you know, if I thought you guys kind of found yourself in the situation because, like, you moved to a city where he was, you find out you moved there and you're like, sure, let's hang out.

Speaker 2 And then he just kind of like latched on where he didn't latch on to me, so to speak. But I definitely would have said something.

Speaker 2 If I were in your boat, I would, I would would say something

Speaker 2 and you'll feel good you if you come from a place of love and you come from like you you because you guys do it's clear you want to help him out you guys could just you could ghost him that's an option right like you know that yeah you could find a different place to watch the games it's a big enough city that if you really like wanted to avoid him you could and he would eventually get the hint and it would break your heart but like whatever but like you don't want to do that and that's because you're you know you care about him in a weird obnoxious way having the mindset that we're trying to help him the whole time is probably the way to go.

Speaker 6 And if we're trying to go backwards from we're trying to help him, then we can find a way to word this, to bring it out to him in a way that he can receive it.

Speaker 6 And the way he receives it, though, is just out of our control.

Speaker 2 You're right.

Speaker 2 It is. And hopefully it gets to a place where he can just like reflect.
And you could, like a girlfriend, you can be like, I, you know, I can remind you when you're doing it.

Speaker 2 You know, like, it's like.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, he's he's gotta want to

Speaker 2 yeah i i would be curious when you ask him if that what he i'm curious what he has to say has he ever demonstrated any self-awareness at all

Speaker 10 i think that answer that answers your question yeah i i don't can't think of a time so

Speaker 2 well that might that might be the harshest thing you guys have to point out yeah which is like clearly you're smart you're a lawyer but you you know sometimes you you lack self-awareness in the form of the fact that like you

Speaker 2 you almost exclusively only talk about yourself. And that's not attractive to anyone.
And it definitely isn't attractive to you because like you're, you're only talking about yourself.

Speaker 2 So like, God forbid, someone talks about what they got going on. You've never shown an interest.
You don't even ask us about what and ask them.

Speaker 2 Like, like, are there things about in your guys's life that he should be aware of that you know he has no idea?

Speaker 10 Well, I think a good example is that we actually are having an engagement party this weekend. And last week, he asked to hang out on that day, which he's already invited to it.

Speaker 10 So he just forgot that our engagement party is on Friday, but like wants to hang out with us, even though he is invited.

Speaker 2 You know, so maybe point that out.

Speaker 2 You're just, yeah, you're, you know, it's like, listen, we love you, but like, you're, you're, you're just, you're very self-centered.

Speaker 2 It'll blow his mind because he probably thinks no one cares about him or whatever. You probably, you know, but like,

Speaker 2 yeah. You, you got to work on that, man.
You know,

Speaker 2 but yeah, it's tough love. And he needs this from somebody.
So you definitely should feel good about your willingness to do that. You're right.

Speaker 6 He does need it.

Speaker 6 I'm not sure if anyone has ever done this to him.

Speaker 2 And if he gets really mad, like, let's assume he gets really mad, follow up too. Like, let's say you meet at the bar, he takes it really poorly.
Let's say he even storms out.

Speaker 2 He's like, fuck you guys, or whatever. I don't know.
Let's say it's that crazy.

Speaker 2 I would text him something like, hey, man, like, I know that was like hard to hear, but truly, like, we just think you, you have a lot of potential as a friend. And we've seen you drive people away.

Speaker 2 And sometimes, to be totally honest, as much as, you know, we care about you as a person, we, you push us away. We see your potential.
So like, we've all been there before.

Speaker 2 We've all been in our own bullshit, but like you need to, you need, you have some things you want, you need to work on. And like, you know.
We just wanted to bring it to your attention.

Speaker 2 And hopefully you're willing to want to work on it because we see your potential.

Speaker 2 If you can communicate that you believe in him and as a person, I think it will go a long way because a lot of his insecurities come from a place of him thinking no one believes in him.

Speaker 2 And the reason why he constantly talks about himself is because he's not getting that validation outside and anywhere else.

Speaker 2 His problem now is he doesn't realize he doesn't even give people a fucking chance to give a shit about him because he's like so quick to like just throw it out there.

Speaker 2 But like at some and this is where the therapy can come in is at some point when he was a little kid This all started happening Maybe even high school. I don't know.

Speaker 2 Maybe like when everyone else hit a girl spurt, he didn't. And this is his, I don't know.
And maybe his dad was a dick to him. I don't fucking know.
Right.

Speaker 2 But like something happened way back when and it started this cycle. And he's become this kind of insufferable person.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 yeah, lead with love as much as you can. Yeah.
So like love, criticism, love, criticism. You know?

Speaker 6 Yeah. A lot to take away.

Speaker 2 Yeah. As long as you're not assholes about it.
Because that's the thing. Most people get to the point where they're just like so fucking tired of it.

Speaker 2 And then all of a sudden you're out at the bar and then someone snaps and you're like, why are you such a fucking prick? You know, like, why, you know, like, you're just a fucking dick, you know?

Speaker 2 And then he storms off, you know, and then it just becomes like awkward. So this is you guys maturing.
This is you guys trying to do an adult thing and communicating.

Speaker 2 And honestly, it's good fucking practice.

Speaker 2 At some point, the two of you are going to be disconnected in your relationship and one of you is going to have to sit down with the other person and be like, ah, you know, like, and you're going going to have to share some hard truths with each other or your children, you know, whenever that happens for you guys or a family member.

Speaker 2 Like, this won't be the last time that you have to have a difficult conversation with a friend or a colleague or an acquaintance, knowing that they're not going to receive it that well.

Speaker 2 And like, this is good practice.

Speaker 6 That's a good takeaway as well.

Speaker 2 And you really have nothing to lose.

Speaker 6 I'll definitely be thinking of that going in.

Speaker 2 And you do have something to gain, right? Like, all of some, like, worst case scenario isn't the worst case. Worst case scenario is you're honest with him.
He really pisses him off.

Speaker 2 He fires you guys, his friend, and you don't feel as bad as you would because, like, hey, you tried. Yeah.
You'd be like, I try, you know? Like, we really try with him.

Speaker 2 We really came into this with the best intentions and we led with love. And yeah, we said some like harsh things, but like we tried where other people just quit on him.
We tried.

Speaker 2 And he still pushed us away. And now.

Speaker 2 I don't have to worry about uninviting him to my bachelor party and he's not going to show up because he's so mad at us for being honest that like we don't have to worry about it.

Speaker 2 So like then that will solve your, it'll solve your problem.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you will have less guilt because you tried.

Speaker 6 So, no, that's definitely a good point.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, keep us posted.
We would love to know how

Speaker 2 this all goes down.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
We'll send a follow-up.

Speaker 2 All right. All right.
We appreciate it. Lead with love.
You know, I would definitely think about what you can compliment him on because this is, this is definitely a person

Speaker 2 who,

Speaker 2 for whatever reason, is very much starving of people believing in him and

Speaker 2 validation and feeling good about himself. It's like no one like hung his rapport card on the fridge, you know?

Speaker 2 And that's why he needs to like amplify the law firm he works at or whatever. You know, it's coming from

Speaker 2 a place of insecurity.

Speaker 6 All right. Well, thank you.
All right.

Speaker 2 Well, take care. Keep us posted.

Speaker 2 Thank you. All right.
Bye. Take care, guys.