Murder, Mystery, And Mommies w/ Susan Hendricks | Your Mom's House Ep. 793

What's everybody? It's me, Tom Segura. I will be in San Francisco January 24th at the Chase Center.
January 30th, I'm in Athens, Georgia. January 31st, Savannah, Georgia.

February 1st, North Charleston, South Carolina. And February 27th, Evansville, Indiana.
All the dates and info are at tomsegura.com slash tour.

Welcome.

Welcome to your mom's house.

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What's everybody?

We are back.

Here and it is time to get going. This is a huge episode.

It's great to be doing this show for a year number

15, I think. No way, Jose.

Are you serious? No, we start in 2010, so God damn it. Later in 2010, but still, it'll be 15 at some point this year.
So my favorite thing to do in the whole wide world. It's so much fun.

To look at my Jean, my Jean-Saint-Jean, and talk about farting and coming and all sorts of good stuff. All types of neat things.
Rod Ma. Yes, like a horse.
This is stacked.

We have to slow roll the announcement of all the things happening this year, but just know this is a super packed year for us.

I'm still on tour.

I will be shooting a special at some point this year. I have a show coming out.
I got some other things that I'm shooting. We're going to be doing some stuff, YMH Studios.
That's right.

It's very exciting. There's a lot of stuff happening.
There's a lot of stuff happening. I'm not touring yet because I'm still recovering from all my, oh, I know, bullshit.
I know. I'm sorry.

You had Invisalign, and that was really traumatic. And I had my own things going on.
It's not a joke. But I'm still selling lipstick, you guys.
Get the perfect four.

That is Berlin, Madison, Atomic Red, and the Perfect Red. You should get them all for.
And you know why? Because they cover all your bases.

You got your daytime, your nighttime, your fancy, all of that shit. And, you know, in honor of what's happening in the art world right now,

the banana that got taped to the wall and sold, I'm throwing my hat in the ring as an artist as well. You can buy my pieces of art.
You can buy Tom as a cat choking.

That was my homage to the net flack. Net flack.
Netflix. Debacle.
All that cool stuff. Don't forget.
I'm not afraid of it anymore. I'm not afraid of that.

Don't forget that the lipstick is gender neutral. So this is not just for the ladies in your life.
This is for any human. It can go with your color beard

if you wish. If you want, very cool.
Very cool.

All right, before we get into all the fun stuff, let's do an opening clip. What do you say there, bro? You ready? If I think it is what it is, I'm gonna be you don't know what it is yet.

You don't know what it is yet, but this one's cool. Here we go.

Happy Saturday.

Rum chopped. Always good and cute.

No. Yes, he is.
You fucking liar. I hate you so much.

He's not.

Stop it.

You're fucked. You know that? I hate you.
I hate you so much. He's not.
Yes, he is, and I'm not looking

at you. He's ruining the clip.

It really does just

taste like cinnamon crutch.

That's really good.

time.

Welcome to your mom's house

with Tom Sagura, Tom Sutsukura, and Christina Pajitsi.

Welcome to your mom's house.

I don't like you.

You know what? I just got inspired for new artwork. No! Yes, he doesn't throw up.

You fucking ruined it. I don't want to listen to it.
I love it. You ruined it.
He doesn't throw up. Happy Saturday.

What's wrong with his mouth? He's doing a gag. He is?

How? Can you even curl your lip under? The whole time it doesn't pop out?

You think that's really what it looks like? What do you think? He doesn't throw up.

It really does taste.

I hate you so much. It really does taste.

Tastes like cinnamon crutch.

That's a really good.

That is his lip, I guess. I think it's his lip.

I hope your lip looks like it. White.
I thought you said it doesn't bother you. You know what? You have food in your teeth.
That's a black thing, and I'm not going to tell you.

But why'd you take it out? You said it doesn't bother you anymore. I don't like it.
I don't like it. I like either seeing it or not.
I don't like the in-between.

What?

I don't like waiting, the anticipation of the sound and the thing.

You literally were like, it doesn't bother me anymore.

What do you want from me? It's not my fault. It's my reaction.
What do you want me to do? Yeah, your reaction is stupid.

You're stupid. You're stupid.
You smell bad. I'm going to fucking draw another artwork for you.
Stupid. You're stupid.
Your mother.

She's so annoyed. Why would you open on that?

Why would you open on that? But I don't like that. You know it doesn't make me laugh.
So that's just for you. Well, what? I don't get to laugh.

I'm not allowed to laugh. Can't you please do a sort of palate cleanser or something better than that? But you're ruining the vibe, just so you know.
No, no, you've already ruined the vibe.

No, the vibe was ruined. We were having fun.
We were listening. Everyone was having a good time.
Nobody liked it. Everybody was having fun.
Nobody liked it in there. Really?

Ask them.

Ask them. I don't think it's funny.

Jesus. Please play something different.
God, stop talking. You stop talking.
You're ruining everything. You're ruining everything.
No, you are. You.
You are, and you always do. Stop.
I always. Yes.

This is always.

your big flaw is that you ruin everything oh my god we were all having fun and then you ruined it you knew that i wouldn't like no he just no you knew i wouldn't like it he doesn't throw up and you just got through saying it doesn't bother you you planned that before you just said it doesn't bother me

i changed my mind i changed my mind the lady changed her fucking mind and you said it last week you're like doesn't bother me anymore You said this. I know.

Well, then show me another barf clip and I'll watch it. I didn't like the in-between.
I don't like the anticipation. Just show me someone puking or not.
Fine, show me someone else puking.

I'll watch it. Why are so many guys on here obsessed with saying just be gay?

Like, why do I have to just

label myself? Yeah. When the more gay things I do,

the more I want to eat clams. Young, nubile clams from the west coast of British Columbia.

That is fucking vile. I love him.
No, he's so free. Can you imagine being this free and this happy?

I just love him. I love that he's so, he's just,

he just is. He's everything.
Will Blunderfeld. Taking the shit.

I guess everyone's saying just be gay. Is he not just being gay?

But you can't label him. But he is doing gay shit constantly.
If you say he's not gay, well, he doesn't want to label it as gay shit. That's the whole problem.
It's just shit.

It's what it's dude shit, is what he's trying to say.

Okay. Maybe you should stop being so closed-minded and go on,

go visit him and go on a retreat. Fine.

Anyway, would you come on a retreat with Will? Oh, no. I would not.

Why? Big N-O, I'm afraid. How come? How come?

Yeah. How come? Well, yeah.
Nigga, the video. That video.
That's why. Well, which one?

What do you mean, which one? Any of them? Well, you can pick any of his videos.

Could you do it if you just went to it? So this is what y'all are talking about in the conference room before y'all. No, no.
This is what y'all. Oh, how could we get Annie to do some gay shit?

No, no, no, no. Not to do gay shit.
Not to do gay shit. No, no.
Would you just go on a retreat?

Hold on, hold on. Yeah, I'm waiting.
Okay.

Where you listen and you are participating to the level that you are comfortable with. No, no, I'm saying just like

learning, listening, growing, participating.

Not doing

gay shit. Uh-huh.
I mean,

so what shit we doing? Well,

you know, no, I don't. Well, you're just learning, man.
Nah, learning about what, dog? Learning about what? Is this an electrician course? What's he teaching me? Fucking trade skills and shit.

Just to be, you know. To be more masculine.
Yeah, how to be more masculine.

how to harness your masculine energy or cheat and you don't have to do anything like nude unless you want to

or whatever

yeah

yeah

uh i think i'm straight on this i think i'm straight i don't know what i could learn okay wear boxers

hold on you wear boxers i'm wearing like 12 boxers which okay you wear multiple boxers i'm wearing boxers shorts pants and you just let the the guru kind of guide you this is crazy i Is this a real ask?

You're actually asking me this? We kind of are. How did you think this was going to go?

Well, I thought that you would not want to.

All right.

But I do think there's a path to growth.

How much money would you say would be a third of this path?

I mean, there would be a fee involved, obviously. There would be a fee? Yeah.
How big is that fee? I mean, we can, you know.

Let's say it on the show. Let's say it on the show.
Everybody needs to know. Well, it's not going to be, come on, we can't talk about it.
This is not lottery stuff. I mean, it would be a fee.

What does that, what do you mean, lottery stuff? What does that mean? Like, you can't just throw out some crazy fucking number to go to a retreat. You know, like, I'm going to do it like your mom.

I'm going to do it like your mom. I ain't going to throw out a crazy number.
We're going to do this. What's your fee for going to a retreat? I'm thinking like 50K.
50K. Oh, my God.

Yep. To better yourself.
This is for

your benefit. Mm-hmm.
Okay. You got to come down for it.
He's acting like... $49K.

He's acting like this isn't in his benefit.

i know you're gonna learn so much you're gonna come back a more masculine man whoa come on dude you know what really made me look like a masculine man what if i had a nice little roly on this uh on this arm right here or maybe two little rollie two something

i don't know that would make me feel real masculine yeah you know what though 50k in my hand any any by the way you owe us because i hear that you're so fat that you've been breaking our chairs huh Yeah.

They say you broke the chairs in the conference room. You're breaking chairs.

You owe us? What is that? Those chairs are ergonomic ergonomic $20,000 a piece. Yeah, maybe skip a few meals, man.
Like, how much are you weighing now?

I'm confused.

I don't know what this is, but...

You broke chairs. You owe us.
I broke chairs. You owe us.

You never broke a chair. Yes, you did in the conference room.
They told us.

They all said that you broke the chairs. You are leaning back because you're so fat and you broke them.
You mean? No, no, no.

See, what they mean to say is that they're stupid and they don't know how to fucking use chairs.

I didn't break shit. Let me push a button.
I'll fix it right back up. If I got you a really nice watch, would you go on the retreat?

How expensive is this watch? If I were to take it to the nearest pawn shop, you're going to pawn it? No, don't pawn it. Don't do that.
It's an asset. It's an asset? It'll increase value over time.

I'll get you a nice one. It'll appreciate in value.

You don't want to sell it. But see, I'd rather just buy myself one.
You know what I'm saying? Okay, okay. Let's say, okay, how about you less? All right.

Gotcha.

I can't give you $40,000 to go on a retreat, man. Why not? It's insane.
That's not insane. That is insane.
This is an insane ass. To ask a black man to do some low-key gay shit.
It ain't low-key gay.

Okay, so you're right. Oh, so are the samurai all gay? Oh, my God.
That's true, Tom. Good point.
Samurai ain't niggas. I'll tell you that.

Jesus.

All right, good answer. Now,

come on, man. You think there's no gay blacks, black people in the world? Is that what you're trying to assert?

How How did you get this? Well, the assertion is that black people can't be gay. That date just is nice.
That is a nice one. Boy, I bet they'll look real nice on Annie's wrist.
Oh, my God.

After his retreat, after he's built muscle and endurance and strength. Zolo, can you go ahead and copy-paste that model into Google, put shopping in there?

They got prices right there.

What is that? $10,000? That's not low.

That's too low for you. $10,000.
That is ridiculous.

Oh my God.

I got to buy my mama's house, dog. What? I got to buy my mama's house somehow.
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Okay, scroll down.

Ooh. Plus, you already owe me 10 from the basketball game, so I owe you 10? Mm-hmm.
I owe you $10,000 from the basketball game. What?

When he won against Ryan?

I thought we were doing something else from that. Nah, we canceled it.
We canceled it? Oh, my God. That's on you.
How did we cancel it?

What do you mean? What do you mean? And he canceled it. He won hair plugs, and then he goes, changes his mind.
We were going to fly you to Turkey to get your plants. Oh, yeah, you were all in on hair.

Yeah, and then you change your mind. That's not our fault.
I mean, we could do that too. Yeah, but you can't back out and then change what you want after.

We have to sign a contract.

See, I mean, but you can't change your mind and then go, oh, but we owe you money.

I didn't change my mind. We said,

we said,

what did we say? We said 10K. We said 10 Gs.

And, yeah, and then Ryan accepted. What do you mean? Ryan accepted.

And what happened there?

Y'all ended up saying, oh, this is unreasonable. We shouldn't do that because, you know.
That's not,

what was it? That was not fair to me because what if I lost and it's too much? This and that. Oh, it was like a bet.

I got you. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I was saying. All right, I'm a little confused.
I'm confused too. But then I thought we ended up saying that the prize for any would be a trip to Turkey to get hair.

Yes. That was the way we agreed on.
And then afterwards. And I came in and he was like, I don't want to do that.

Then he changed his mind about what the prize is. I agree.
It's very confusing. I'll tell you what.
We'll settle all of it. $50,000.

You can't.

Sorry. It's just ridiculous.

You know what? Forget it.

We got to get you to go on this retreat, man.

Please go on the retreat.

Please. What do you mean? I can't believe this is a serious ask.
This is a serious ask. I can't believe this is a serious ask.
Please. I mean, I'm saying please too.

No, I know, but it's that your please is unreasonable. You can't give you $50,000.
Tom, which retreat are we doing? Is it Will's retreat? Yeah. Oh, you got to go do that.
You see, you see,

it's like, I don't even know. I don't even know if, like, I don't even know if 50K, like, if I'm really going to do that.

And then I get there, and he's like, Yeah, first thing you got to do, you just touch my dick a little bit. It's like, oh, no, that's not his style.
It's all voluntary. Whatever you do is voluntary.

He is not going to force you to do. Come on.
Come on, dude. That's not how he is.
I don't think he would do that. Just take one for the team and go.
Take one for the team.

For the sake of fun and self-growth.

I mean, I just don't understand why you would refuse this help. It's so good.

Just do it. Can we say you'll do it? We cannot say it.
This is crazy. Come on.
Good job, pussy. Don't you like being part of the team? I love being part of the team.
Well, then, come on. Just do it.

This is what it takes to be a part of the team. Well, this is how you're one of the leaders on the team, yeah.

What? You're a leader. I'm a leader.
Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
All right, that's a yes. You're doing it.
I did not say that yesterday. Okay, great.
It's done. I did not say that.
Let's say it's mostly settled. I did not say that.
Yes.

This is a conversation. I'm having a conversation.
I ain't say yes. It's crazy.
Okay, we'll revisit. But basically,

he's pretty much gone.

Okay, so

I'm excited for you. Here's the thing.
I already have your prize for you for going.

Hey, Blackman, how are you?

It's freaking snowing.

And what kind of a

person besides the snow bunny goes out in the snow in shorts.

Anyways, I was just going to tell you that if you get you a snow bunny, we take care of your hair. We take care of

beard. We take care of getting reservations for food.

We take care of stuff black guys struggle with.

We take care of making snowman's. Do you want to build a snowman?

We take care of

casserole dishes for the family parties. Nice.
We take care of

everything.

Hey, Black Man. There she is.
You know what time it is? It's almost tax season. Time to get you a snow bunny.
Because you know, we got that bread.

Is this like an appealing thing to you?

I mean, it's appealing to look at.

I love watching this girl on Instagram, but I would never get with that, though. That bipolar, the crazy shit.
She's crazy. Yeah, that's why.
Hold on. I thought.
That mania, that's crazy.

I thought boys liked crazy chicks because they really put out. Yes, boys.
You're right. Boys.
Oh, men. Men are over.
Crazy? Men understand the consequences that come with those. Oh, right.

Yeah, the fatal attraction. Seems like you already went to Will's fucking retreat.
You were talking like a grown man.

That's right. Yeah.
That's right. And you know what? It's time.
It's a new chapter in your life. It's time to expand your horizons and try new things.
Yeah.

It says here that she's married and has two kids. To a black man? Yeah.
Oh, sweet. But why is she.

Blackman, black man, black man. listen.

You just name it. What better

way

to start your new years out? She's slow. But they snow

money.

She really loves blackmail. Am I having a stroke or was that? She put it in a slow-mo.
You didn't.

It's like, either I did too many micro doses in the last week.

Okay, okay, okay. She's slow.

Hey, can I, I think the new remember what eyebrows were yeah eyebrows used to be the tell for crazy chicks yeah the new eyebrows is eyelashes oh eyelashes lash extensions like eyebrows are still a pretty good indicator but yeah yeah if you've shaved your eyebrows and penciled them on yeah you're crazy and if you do eyelashes like this chunky extensions you're absolutely insane by the way and this has been something i've been hearing a long a long time because any brought up the basketball game ryan has been wanting to rematch any

for a while. This is ridiculous.
We're going to do this again. He wants to do it again.
No way, Jose. Oh, my God.
That's awesome. Well, Ryan's in much better shape.
Yeah, that's the thing.

He's lost a lot of weight. He's lost weight.
He's been working out. He's been taking good care of himself.
Yep. Damn.
Could be. Yeah, that'd be cool, except no rematch.
Sorry, buddy. One and done.

Oh, he's afraid.

How about if Ryan wins, you go to the retreat? What the f? No.

One? No. No.
I'm already signing you up, dude. No.
Yes. No.
Yes. This is not going to.
This has to happen. Thomas.
Come on, Ennie. Thomas.
Are we not friends? This is not how. You see, this is how...

Now I know how I sound when I do this to people. Okay, now I know how this feels.
I see. Okay.
Well, this is not going to happen. All right.
We're getting there.

We're getting there. I am sending a message to him.
You are? What are you saying? Are you telling Ryan that... That any wants to go.
Yes. Annie, just do it.
Come on. What happened?

Have the people. You know what I mean? I think you need the retreat more than ever because you used to have this confidence.
Remember when anyone's confident? Used to.

And now you're just kind of like, oh, I don't want to challenge Ryan. I can't.
I'm afraid. Like, I feel like your confidence is waning.
You need this retreat more than you know.

Damn, now you're just going to try to hurt my feelings. Well, you need to build yourself your masculine energy back up.
Yeah.

Will can help you out. Will can help you out.
I don't think I'll help you.

You want to be a real fucking man like this guy?

I about his mama's on?

Zox!

Fuck, dude. Dude.
Oh, yeah.

Oh,

fuck, dude. Oh, hello, Harry.

Wow, it didn't come out. It didn't come out.
It didn't come out. Yeah.
That's why he's not in royal pain. He was.

You need alcohol to do that. He grips it.
You could hear it clank against the steel. Yeah.
You need to be on drugs to do that to yourself. You need to be high on mafium.
He needs Falcon Car wash.

Yeah. Needs a little bit of Pepsi in a cup with some dog food on a knife.

Dog swim on a knife.

He's like,

Yeah,

you need to be on drugs to do this. That's the problem.
He's he's sober. Yeah, man.

Damn. Ah, man.

This is America, right?

You dumb motherfucker. You gotta get it going, buddy.

Yeah. It's insanity.
That's how you do it. Insanity.

Here's a guy who looks pretty cool. This is, I think, maybe a holiday video.

Fuck you. Fuck the fuck out.

He's from ATR.

Yep. He's from ATR.

Oh,

fuck you. Fuck the sanity forever.
He's choking himself.

That guy's face is wrecked. Yeah.

That fall.

Yep.

From the choke to the floor, landing on your face. He just did it to himself.
He totally did. Everything was to himself.
That's the sad part. And slow motion.
Yeah. He wasn't even.

They're like, get the fuck out of here. Now they're like, God damn it.
This guy. He just died on our bar.
He's just unconscious now on our floor. God damn it.

I tell you, the nightlife business is a hard one. I've worked in bars.
We tell jokes in the night. Anything to do with it.
It's just, you're just dealing with chaos. All the time.

The security you need.

Drunk people are the worst to deal with. Ugh.
Very, very sad. Very sad.
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And

the great Eladia Baldwin. Oh my God, she's back.
We've had some,

if you don't know,

some other stuff in the past, just to give you a refresher. Okay.
Oh, she's so great. We have very few ingredients.
We have tomatoes. We have

cucumbers. How do you saving graphs? How'd you say? Come on, se titani.

There's been some questions about where I'm born. I'm born in Boston.

So, can you say I spent some of my childhood in Boston, some of my childhood in Spain?

Got it. So that's why she was like, I don't know how to say.

How'd you say? Do it, Tommy. Do you hear? Because you do that.
How do you say?

Tilleria, all these charges are not going to be a good idea.

I'm going to tell you what I'm going to say. You're not going to ask me questions.
I'm going to ask you.

Okay. Okay.
I want you guys to realize that we have seven kids. Jesus.
And you being here

to escort them to school.

Escort them to school. Be there when they come home is not good.
It's not good. So, on a human level, you guys know I'm not going to say anything to you.

You know that.

So please leave my family in peace

and let this all play out.

She talks like she was born in fucking Honduras or some shit. It's so funny.

Her name is Hilaria Lynn Hayward Thomas. Hilarious.
From Boston. Not Hilaria.
Sorry, Tilly. Hilary Hills.
From Boston.

She is of English, French, Canadian, German, Irish, and Slovak descent.

She says she was raised in a Spanish-speaking household and traveled to Spain annually.

Okay.

She also says she began to use the name Iladia as she got older.

So, anyway,

it's not good for my children. Please.

Here's the newest one. Oh, my God.

I mean, well, I don't know what that one is, but I can tell you that my tortilla rude potatoes.

Potatoes, you have to not cut them too tiny because they're not going to have the right texture. And then,

my husband hates

Teboya. I forgot it.
Okay. Teboya.
Teboya. So he hates Teboya.
And so I grind Teboya and Ajole.

Oh my God. And asshole.
What is she grinding? My Jospe hates.

What's the word for Seboya? Anyone. How you say.

How you say.

She's like how my mom talks. Oh, I know.
That's how my mom talks. Yes.
Who learned English at 31. Yeah.
She's claiming to forget her native tongue. It's just fun.
It is so fun. How you say.

How do you say?

And I make this tortilla here for you.

And then my husband, he don't like a house.

I forget.

How do you say?

My first language. My first language.
How do you say in English?

What? And she also has that baby voice, like that highly

voice. If you're, listen, if you've been sexually assaulted,

no, it's true. That's why all the girls in Porny have have a high register.
It's a sign of assault. Just lower the register in your voice and you'll sound way more intelligent.

No, listen, it's a true story. I believe it was Margaret Thatcher when she started working in Parliament, had a vocal coach to bring her voice down

a few octaves because it's not pleasant to listen to it up here. Yeah.
Well, you feel like you're listening to a kid. You're listening to a little guy.
You want to listen to an authority?

You want the authority to have

a deeper register.

you got that gravel well yeah just like just talk like you mean business right like yeah

i've been doing a lot of things out there guys i've been thinking

oi

hey you want to know something going to the uk soon oi that's right love yeah oi i'm margaret thatcher First fucking things first. There's the Prime Minister.

Higher taxes. We are going to the UK.
Oh no, I can't fucking wait, mate. I have a tour.
I'm so excited.

Some of it is outside of the UK, but it's still in the region. I'll be going to Dublin,

Glasgow, Glasgow,

London, London, Manchester, Manchester, Birmingham,

Cardiff,

and am I forgetting one? I don't know. Bam, Cardiff, where else? Wales.
No, that isn't Cardiff.

Cardiff is Wales. Is Birmingham? Bam is Birmingham.
That's outside of London. It's all down in March.
Let's see. I'm so excited.
Belfast. Dublin.
Oh, Belfast. Forgot Belfast.
Glasgow. Oh, Nottingham.

Nothing. Nothing.

That's exciting, mate. Wimbley.

He's doing the Wimbley. Yep.
It's all very exciting. This is so rad.
I can't wait to come. We're going to have the greatest family vacay.
It'll be fun. Oi.
Oi. What?

No, you got to practice your cool British accent. Nay.

Nay. Nay is Australian.
Nay. I know.
They were.

Do you know that that was a thing last night at bottom of the barrel? Well, one of the things was like, how Australians say no? Yeah.

And then there was an Australian guy in the audience, and we made him speak. Did he say it? He went, night.
He was like, no. And everyone's like, you're not fucking doing it right.

He was like, no. We're like, say water.
He was like, water. And we were like, that's, I get it.

We were kind of come up with things that for him to say that we would be lost on. It was very fun.

Well, I can't wait for you to do your Cockney accent in England and tell people you love them and happy birthday. Happy birthday.
It's your birthday.

It's your birthday. Especially when you tip people.
It's your birthday. It's your birthday.
Happy birthday.

Evening, governor. Hello.
It's your birthday.

Oh, this is some seriousness.

So we have to switch to something serious. Juniors.

This is serious, if you don't mind. Oh, I'm sorry.
Please.

Could you get serious for a second? I'm sorry. But everything's a fucking joke.
Okay.

So,

one of the great crimes of modern times, this has yet again happened.

I have been misgendered three times in the past 24 hours at restaurants. Last night, I was at Benny Hana with my girlfriend, and the server said, What about you, sir? What would you like to do?

My girlfriend, God bless her heart, steps in, says, Actually, that's ma'am.

And she looks at my girlfriend and didn't really understand what had happened and said, No, I'm talking to him, pointing at me.

Our jaws were on the floor, and we decided to leave because it it was just a bad vibe afterwards.

And just a few minutes ago, I was at another restaurant for lunch and they showed me my seat and said, here you go, sir. And I said, I am not a sir.
Yeah. Yeah.

So fucking crazy that this keeps happening. I'll tell you why it keeps happening.
It's because you look like a guy. And you talk like a guy.
Yeah.

So if you want people to fucking start calling you ma'am, start looking like one. I know.
You're not putting in enough effort, fuckface. No.
You got to fucking try harder.

There's a reason that everyone keeps doing this to you is because your level of effort sucks. Step it up.
You have a masculine fucking face. No.

Go get some surgery, wear a prettier dress, get better hair, and start talking in a higher voice. Like Hilaria.
Yeah. Also, maybe not wear a bark collar out in the world.
I thought that was a...

a voice adapter changer on i wish it's just a microphone

no it's a microphone it looks like that collar you put on your dog so it doesn't bark when people ring the doorbell. I don't know how you can get mad at this.
This fucking clown, he's been always

so upset with people

constantly misgendering me.

And you know who he gets mad at? The bus boys. Like people that have no, you know, don't do this.
Sweet fucking El Salvadorian person pouring water. He's like, Yeah, Javi, you're what?

Yes, sir. He's like, for fuck's sake.

It's just like a nice little immigrant guy. Yes.
I'll tell you what, too.

I really do wish in another life if I could open up a shop to consult trans women, like help these dudes actually look like women. I would love to do that.

And then I left because I wasn't comfortable anymore. And I went to a new restaurant and I asked before I sit down, where's the bathroom, please? And they said, oh, it's right this way, sir.

And I just left because I wasn't comfortable. So you're just going to keep it.
If you're a observer in the food industry, you don't need to use words like sir or ma'am.

There are ways to be respectful without using those words. And if you get it wrong for someone like me, I will probably leave the restaurant.

And it puts like a bad vibe on my day when it happens, especially when it happens three times in a row. Yeah, but this is fair to say also, this person is mentally ill.
Yeah.

This is a complete lunatic. Yeah, of course.
Like after seeing a series of these videos, you're like, okay. Well, I think this is all a charade.
It's a charade. And it's all about picking fights.

It's like this person's waiting to be called out and then get

mad on TikTok. Like, just relax.
And he's waiting to go in with his fucking dog collar.

Yeah, with his dog collar and his dock worker face, and going, like, hey, how come no one's like, excuse me, miss?

Because no one sees it. And then you're just going to be like, I'm going to keep going into places.
It's like the definition of insanity. It is.
It is.

And I think, I imagine, I think this person lives in San Francisco, I want to say, which is a very open, lenient,

trans-friendly town. So, I mean, there's nothing but trans.
And it just goes all the way back to your level of effort. You're just not trying hard enough.
No, you should try hard.

You definitely need to get your face shit done, taken care of. Yeah, his face is still very masculine.
It's not passing.

You see my wild side. I show everything.
Oh, that's why he's doing this. But including a cock, which also belongs to men.

Watch me jack off with my feminine dick. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, come on.
Now

the gig is up. We know what you're doing.
Yeah. You're just directing traffic to the OnlyFans, huh? Okay.
Got it. You know, this makes me mad.

You're not the only one that's going to have a hot OnlyFans. Charo

is getting closer to getting going, and the fans are still

ready and asking for it. What's up everybody?

This is a message for Charo.

Getting on OnlyFans, girl.

You know what we want here.

I love this. I love this, dude.
That shift was really fucking scary. Yeah.

That was terrifying.

Let's watch it again. Yeah, that was so scary.
What's up everybody?

This is a message for Charo.

Okay.

Uh-uh. Getting on OnlyFans, girl.

You know what we want here.

Yeah. Oh, it was amazing.
It was great. And by the way, he's got the cool guy angle.
He's got the audio.

He's got music playing. He looks like he's cooking or something or painting.
He's got an apron on.

Hey, Hitler's Brandon from Ohio. Just wanted to weigh in on the Charo OnlyFans debacle.

Big time yes. Yes, yes, yes.
The people want to see it. The people need to see it.
It's riveting. It's exciting.
It's new. I'd pay 15 bucks a month.
Wow. Let's get Charo on only fans

thank you sir thank you very much for that wow that was great that was awesome hey charlie this is literally yes from scotland telling you to get your ass in gear and get that only fans made let it rip

yes thank you guys awesome there's excitement around this yep and i think we're gonna get her in here soon we're gonna show her these and i i hopefully think we can get a page going she's getting ready she's getting ready she's getting her botox today she told me I yeah, I'm taking her to get her face.

Yeah, I got a cool phone call. What happened?

She was like, I'm on my way to do this thing. And I go, okay.
I'm driving. She's like, how do I pay for this? Oh, my God.
Which is basically like, how are you going to pay for this?

And I was like, I fucking, I don't know. I'll reimburse you.
And she's like, yeah, I think I have a checkbook. I go, you're going to have a checkbook.
A check. God, you really are old as shit.
I know.

Anyway. She wants you to pay for it.
I got her a ride today.

I gave her a ride. You took her? I didn't take her, but I got somebody to drive her.
I had someone to drive her.

So she's shaking me down for the ride, and now she's shaking you down for the money.

This is crazy. She's not destitute.
She is not poor. At all.

At all. I can't believe she just shakes us down for everything.
Everything. Everything.
I can't believe she just did it to me now. She's shaking me down.

Yesterday it was, can I have a bag? Yeah. You have so many bags.
Ask me for a bag.

So this is like luggage, right? And I do have a lot of luggage. Yeah.
Just years of so much travel.

So I was like,

okay. Give me this backpack.
I'm like, no, I just bought this backpack. Well, give it to me.
I'm like, no.

And so then she goes,

don't you have something?

Something I can have?

So I fucking emptied a bag and I go, here.

And I gave her a bag. And I go, I don't think you're going to want to take this.
Why?

I go, because it's empty empty right now when it's full you it's a duffel you're not going to want to throw it over your shoulder you know of course

no it's fine and then in the car i'm like i really think you're not going to like that once it's full of your stuff you are right

i go yeah she goes so you have another bag i go yeah i have a roller bag i'll give you a roller bag because you're not going to want to lug one over your shoulder No, you are right.

When can I have the roller bag? I'm like, the fucking next time you come over.

It's unbelievable. She wants everything and she wants it right now.
She should pair up with the fucking misgendered person.

I feel like they would be a good match. I'm going to cry.
You know what we should do? I was thinking, because every time she sees what I have, she wants it. She wants my handbag.

She gets in my car yesterday and she's like, oh, what do I have to do to get this bag? And I go, nothing. You can't have this.

Here's what we should do.

Let's go to the 99 cent store. Yeah.
And just buy a bunch of shit. A bunch of bullshit.
Wrap every single thing. So when she comes over, we're like, oh, we got you something.
She's like a toddler.

Yeah. Yeah.
So she can feel like

she unwrapped a gift. Yeah.
And you retard it? Yeah. She's so retarded.
Yeah, she is. Any,

you really need to take a shit. Don't forget.
I know you're black and you guys do your own thing, but you still have to shit. Thank you, Charlo.
Yep. That's very true.

All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.
And we are back.

You know our guest perhaps from HLN, maybe CNN, and she's also the author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. It's Susan Hendricks everywhere.

Good to see you guys. Thank you for coming.

I'm so excited to be here. We're very excited.
Me in particular. He's been erect all day just thinking about talking about murders with you.
I mean, you know that most of our

television consumption is basically her just sitting. Literally every night when I get into bed, she goes, are you going to watch a murder?

And she's like, I'm going to go to bed as you watch a murder. No, no, no.
I go, what are you going to watch? Genocide, murder, serial killers, kidnapping. What awful thing are you going to watch?

And then she drifts off as I dive into a new story. Well, they're captivating.
They bring you in.

Thank you for doing this because one of the reasons I'm is that she also is like, you know, you're a sick person.

Like, she'll say this to me, right? She's like, you're sick. Something's wrong with you.

Why are you watching this?

Before sleep. What are you filling your head with? And then I also would be like, hey, you realize this is the number one show trending right now?

Like, she thinks, I'm like, you think they produce this for me? Like, there's a lot of people watching, right?

Let me tell you, we watched that documentary the other night, and I couldn't sleep for two, what was it called again?

Lover, killer, mother, stalker,

stalker, killer. And I couldn't sleep for hours.
I was so upset. I felt traumatized.
I felt sick to my stomach. Now, how is it that...

How do you live with this stuff? I was watching an episode, you guys. I'm so excited to be here again.
I'm a huge fan. You guys got me through COVID.
Thank you.

I would come back and from the numbers ticking up at CNN and it's like fight or flight constantly.

And then I'd come home and I listened to Sebastian and Picorielli, you guys, and now my algorithm is, that's all I listened to is you guys. Good.

But, right, my sister would say, oh, I fall asleep to forensic files. Oh, my God.
And when covering the story out of Delphi, it was two young girls murdered in the middle of the day.

And I was sent there by CNN. I didn't know about the story, much about it, just that the 14-year-old Libby was able to hit record on her cell phone.

And they got this kind of the guy guy on this abandoned bridge in the woods. I used to play outside.
It was Gen X. That's what you did.
Come home when the lights go on. It was a day off from school.

They were down there and it was secluded. And she was able to,

he was a blurry version because he was far away, but they got his voice saying, guys, down the hill. So I was sent here.
I met the families.

Normally, with the news cycle, when I'm in studio, teleprompter, story, you know, the A block, the B block, it's very formulaic. So you care, but you're on to the next, the next, the next.

Well, this one, I was in their kitchen. I had spaghetti with the families.
I saw their rooms and I went, oh my, I saw the bridge and they were looking for the guy.

Fast forward, I really got to know them well, especially Libby's family. And every family deals with it differently.
And Libby's family was very open.

They were speaking at CrimeCon, holding up a sketch like, we need help finding this guy. And I think that was their focus to get them through.

And Mike, Libby's grandfather, was there and he would say, come to the meet and greet. And I said, it's inappropriate.
I shouldn't be here. I'm not part of it.
He's like, come.

And he kicked me under the table because in a nice way, but say, you have to be here. These women would show up and cry.
They're waiting in line. They care.

So I think what I found out through this whole community is the connection. So at CrimeCon, it's either people

who have literally gone through it. I interviewed BTK's daughter, Carrie Rawson, on stage because I met her through Kelsey's sister.
This girl, well, she said, I trust you, Susan.

I gave Carrie your name. I said, Okay, she just wrote a book.
I said, That's fine. And I met her, and she's amazing.
And she's shaking backstage. And she said, I'm nervous.
People don't like me.

They say that I look like my father. And I'm so glad that this family is nice to me because I'm on the other side.
And I said, What other side? There's no, you didn't do this. It was your father.

She said, I had no clue, Susan. He'd make me scrambled eggs.
He'd say, fill up your tires before driving back to college. Walked her down the aisle.
And that, to me, I got that.

It's part of the fascination. Like,

what? Wait a minute. What? Because the Mansons look like man.
Yeah.

The father, and with this, it ended up being a guy, CVS, father.

He walked his daughter down the aisle at CVS. When the aunt of one of the girls walked in crying for the funeral and said, develop a picture for her, he said, it's on me.
It was him. He looks normal.

We think that they're not going to look normal. Well, that's part of the fascination, right?

Is that, first of all, I think you just, these are behaviors that all extreme violence is accessible to everyone. In other words, everyone has thought, God, I want to kill this person.
I'm so mad.

I want to hit this person. But you always, you stop yourself, right? Like you want to, you're so angry.

And so the fact that somebody is capable of doing that, I think is part of the fascination, that somebody crosses the line, right? Yes.

And then there's the story aspects to this because they're fascinating. Like, how did the person go about doing this horrible thing? And

to get away with it. And then how did we piece together

the investigation to catch the person? So that whole arc, I think, is why these stories never get old. It's just always, you're like, how did this happen? How can somebody do this?

And then how do you catch them? And I have an eight-year-old son, and I interviewed Anne Burgess. I'm like, is it nature or nurture? Like, what is it? Can you raise a murder? Like, what is it?

She's She's like, well, that's the question that everyone asks, but it usually is, not always, but there's abuse there. We all want to like compartmentalize to be like, why?

And the why is never like a, oh, okay, I get it. I get it.

So he was 44 years old when he went down there and he said, when I first walked into this trial, because I had seen him when they finally made an arrest, and he looked back at me.

And he didn't take his eyes off me first. And I went, like, because you know how you normally do that.
And I go, what's going on? Yeah. This was a hearing before the trial.
And

Tara, Libby's aunt, said to me, Oh, he always does this. He glares at us and he would look at me like this.
The guy's like 5'4.

And I'm like, what? 44 years old? Wakes up one day and decides to murder someone. But I've gotten to know Paul Holes, who solved the Golden State killer case.

And he's like, Susan, you can have sick fantasies about this for years and never act on it. That Golden State case is.
What is that? Just tell me to remind you what else. It was originally

the person because it happened from the 70s and it was an ex-cop, but it was called the.

Yeah,

he started with break-ins. Yep.
So what he would do is just break into homes, ransack them. He was like robberies, you know? And then it escalated to assaults and then to murders.
And he did it.

I mean, his numbers were actually. off the charts.
Sadistic. It was off the charts with how many people.

The murders are obviously like the highlight, but if you know how many people he actually broke into homes and assaulted even before that, it was like triple digits.

And this is before, of course, cell phones, like with this guy who got caught, Richard Allen.

It was, he didn't bring a cell phone down there, but it's kind of like you're able to see his car past a certain building, even though the town was less than 3,000 people, which I think had heard of.

120 burglaries. Jesus.

51.

Years. And no one suspected he was an ex-cop.
But what he would do, he'd tie up the husband, have him watch, and put

a crystal cup on his back and say, if I hear this, smash, you're all dead. And he killed, I mean, countless people, of course.
And finally, Paul Holes said to me, Susan, I had to look out for this.

I put everything that aligned with what I thought. I would say, okay, I think I got the guy.
And he said, and everything that didn't, I'd kind of push away.

And he said, I had to be very careful about that.

because

it turned out that because the DNA came back, it wasn't the guy I thought it was. He pulled in front of his house and Paul Holes has the most amazing book and he thought, I'm going to go in.

This is him. I know it's him.
And he goes, thank God I didn't. Like what he fantasized about going in.
And the first page of Paul Holes' book, he said he was so devoted.

And he said, he was at this strip club. And he thought to himself, he would see the young girl.
He was with a bunch of guys. And he'd say, I'd see her in like an autopsy deal.

And he's like, I'm going crazy. He's like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm going crazy.
And he said he felt more comfortable, though, at an autopsy than a cocktail party.

It ruined marriages, but he's good at it. I know.

But he'd look at a scene and say, swab the foot, like he has a way of solving it. Yeah,

sorry.

No, the story was just, it was unbelievable. I mean, the HBO series, they had a series on it about Michelle McNamara.
That's right. That's Pat Namibia.
Married to that actor. Yes.

And she was obsessed with

the case. She died during.
Yeah. And it was, yeah, it is one of the most incredible stories.

If it wasn't for Michelle McNamara, and Paul Holst points this out all the time, it wouldn't have been solved. Yeah.
She became

the driving force of this. She was like an armchair detective, so to speak,

and really kind of dug into it and was taking things to sleep at night. And then

it ended up accidentally killing her, the prescription mixed with something. And sometimes I have my sister call, don't get into too much into crimes.
Michelle McNamara died.

Like, you can't, you have to separate this. And my mom would say, can't you tell them you have kids now? No more murders.
I'm like, Mom, I can't go into CNN. Like, excuse me.

Excuse me, no more murders. Well, that's what I was going to ask.
But this also was

this guy, also, just by the way, was married, kids, grandkids. Of course.
They all have their profile together. Don't trust normal humans.
You don't know. Do you ever get afraid of retaliation?

I do, but I think that I'm very skilled at compartmentalization. I don't know if that's a good thing.
I'm able to

tell other people's stories and focus on that. I don't get afraid, but

my son the other day is in second grade. He goes, mom.

He's just so sweet. He goes, so there was a mom today at reading, and she writes poetry with my friend's mom.
And I said to him, I'm like, my mom writes books. He goes, what kind of books?

He goes, don't tell anybody. Murder.

And my mom goes, well, at least he said, don't tell anybody. I'm like, the Catholic way.

But I told that to Nancy Grace. I'm like, I swear he's in therapy.
He's going to see therapy. Murder.

And then I, when, when I decided to write this, and it's, it's different because no one was caught at the time.

I just got to know the families and I thought there's something there about their perspective. And growing up, I digress back to New Jersey.
I think I was like 10 or 11.

Our cousin, the Keith family is like four very pretty girls. And the dad worked in local politics.
So did my dad and the brother. And she was murdered.

And I heard my parents talk about it, like on the landline. And we heard rumors like, was it a drug dealer in New Brunswick, New Jersey? No one ever talked about it.
And we didn't ask.

And our friend, whose sisters were friends with Kathy Keith,

said it was a drug dealer and it was this house. So finally, when I was writing this, I mentioned it.
And I said to my dad, Dad, what happened? And he goes, oh, it was our boyfriend.

I went, what do you mean, boyfriend? I thought it was a drug dealer. He goes, well, they were.
doing drugs, but it wasn't a drug dealer. I'm like, why don't you tell us?

He's like, what am I going to tell my teenage girls about that? So I did call the sister and say, can I mention this? And it was, there was a newspaper article that I found.

And it's funny because it says like the headline of this. And when I, the editor, Hachette, said, more of this.
But if the sister said, I don't want to talk about it, I wouldn't have.

And it was more like the headline was like, dead woman is daughter of official.

Did they get preferential treatment? Which was like the headline. But anyway, so I thought, is that why? I don't know why.
But anyway,

I think it's about the draw to it is

people want to understand why. And I feel like they can, they think that they could help maybe.
I'm not sure.

Did you find that? I mean, obviously this title is very telling, my descent into this, that you became obsessed with this then? Did you become obsessed with this? Oh, I didn't. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Because I was used to being on set and there's a teleprompter in their stories. And you just move on.
I did Anderson show at night and I you move on you and you're good at moving on.

And then I got to know them too well and I would just start crying for no reason. And then the pandemic hit and my sister's like, I think you're too involved.
I'm like, I'm not too involved. I just,

and I get criticized like we all do online, I guess, but it's like, she's not a journalist. Who does she think she is? She's too nice to the local cops.

They were, I really liked the local authorities, but I found out my cousin, Kevin Hendrix, who's 10 years younger than me, I still look at him as a kid.

He's in the FBI and I said, what do you, can you look into this? Like, what's going on? There's tips. It's a town of less than 3,000 people.
It's like, but I think that was a deterrent.

You would think, oh, it's Jim. No, you don't think it's the guy who you like, who

you see in town. So

he's like, okay, I'm going to write you back like this. And don't look at this and open this as this.
And I thought, I'm going to see stuff. This is two years before and around.

And he goes, oh, forget it. I know what he goes.
They shut the FBI out.

They kicked him out. Because when someone's missing, the FBI is automatically invited in.
The girls were missing. When their bodies were found, they have to be invited in.

And guess what they gave them? The tip line, nothing.

The ego. So you think you see it in the movies?

It happens. Wait, now, why do you think, because you have, I'm sure,

a very clear perspective on this. Why do you think these stories and this genre in particular appeals to women so much? That's such a good point or a good question.
And I've wondered that too.

And Kevin Balf, who puts on Crime Con, I've asked him that. And it's a funny story.
Him and his brother owned Red Seed Ventures.

And Nancy Grace came to them after HLN and said it was kind of a podcast umbrella. And he said, oh, let's go to the crime conventions.
And there were none. And he said, so we started one.

He's like, it could have been a colossal failure. He goes, I didn't know.
I wasn't really. He said, but

what I've found is that women either want to know

And I've heard this said in kind of a joking manner. Like women, when they go on a date, if they don't know that, they're worried they're going to get killed.

Like women want to be armed with the information. So I don't know if it's that, but the Scott Peterson, I think it's the person who doesn't look like a killer.

And so you're like, wait a minute, that guy kid, and Chris Watts, the most horrific. It's like, he looks normal.
Who's Chris Watts? The one horrible.

Horrible. He looks totally normal.
He killed his two little girls and the wife. Yeah.
And the wife. It got so bad.
And I'm good at staying at this level on the air.

Well, that day it was the hearing where the prosecutor, I think he did this on purpose, explained everything he did to those girls. And I was with guys I'm usually with contributors.

This was Joey Jackson, an attorney, and my eyes were water. And I looked at him and he goes, my God.
So he kept talking. And it was horrific.

Horrific. Usually it is the husband, correct, that kills children.
I want to tell future husbands, if you're thinking about doing this or like you get caught. It's the guy.
They always get caught.

But what about those anomaly cases like the John Benet Ramsey's or Madeline McConnell where they're like, oh, it's not the parents. Like, I mean.

Usually,

and even in the Delphi case,

these internet, the thing I love about YouTube, and I was able to find you guys and podcasts, everyone has a voice, but the bad news is everyone has a voice.

So some people could go on there and blame the families that have nothing to do with it.

I think with murder and abuse of kids,

it usually happens inside the house of its family. Outside the house, when they're on a bridge, it's not going to be, you're going to be like, Dad,

if they're walking towards you. True.
It depends who you ask. With Maddie McCann, I never

ever thought, because I covered that, but not as extensive as others. I never met the parents, but I always thought, like, something happened.
And it's funny. I stayed at a hotel with my husband.

I'm like, nobody leave this room. I'm a little nuts now.
A lot nuts because I'm like, didn't you see the Maddie McCann thing? You think of everything that could happen. And he's like,

We have a sitter.

There's a sitter there. I'm like, should we not bring the kids? So you always think of the worst case scenario.

But there are people out there who said maybe it was an accidental death and the parents covered up. But you can find anything that you believe.

That whole cover-up and maybe, you know, you can't help but think about the Jean Bonet case because it's, you know, the other thing is, I mentioned this in some of the other stories, like even the Menendez story, is that you're alive during it,

but you kind of, you're like, oh, yeah, the guys that killed their parents.

And then you watch the documentary again and you're like, oh, shit, I don't remember any of this, or I didn't know any of this. And the Jean Bonnet documentary was a real,

really informative and also a big-time refresher because I was like, you know, I remember the story.

But you're young and you're young. You're young.
And you're like, I remember that when it started, I was like, oh, yeah. So who ended up being arrested for that again?

That's how I, and I was like, oh, right. They never really got anybody for that.
I go back and forth on Jean Bonnet at first. I never,

I've met the dad at CrimeCon and a nice man. And I was in the green room with him.
And he said, you know, Susan, I think

I'm fighting for that. Like in Delphi, I want the FBI to be, to stay in certain jurisdictions.
And I said, I understand.

And at first, I wasn't clear about what happened or I didn't have a thought. And then I read a book on it.
And I thought, ooh, could it have been the son?

And, you know, parents would go, because you're not. I thought about it.
I wouldn't stick up for my husband if he did this ever.

But if my daughter accidentally would stick up for the kids, so that's where my head went. But I don't know if we'll ever know.

The note was odd. The note's so odd.
So what do you think of the note?

The placement. Well, first of all, her being in the home, you know, the access to that home through that window.

The note is beyond peculiar.

But also

seeing, okay, take the father aside, seeing how I believed how distraught this mother was. Me too.
And it just didn't register to me like that she was just being like, I got you to him on this.

I know. It's very peculiar.
I don't think we'll ever know, but I think something happened inside of that house.

And I don't think we'll ever know what it is. I really don't.
And it's horrible that Patsy passed away and that,

you know, he wouldn't you though, if there were suspicion on you, just kind of go away. He's still at CrimeCon.
He's still out there. He wants it tested.

He even came out and said recently, look, I think that, I know what you're going to say. What? That

I think, here's what I, I think, okay, you know, when the mind is very powerful, and I'm not accusing anybody of anything, you know what I mean?

But let's just say I did something terrible and I could convince myself that I'm innocent. And I might believe that lies so much.

I might go to church every day just to show other people how innocent I am.

I might try to absolve myself of the sin by overcompensating. Someone find my daughter.
Someone find my husband. I love Tom Sigura so much.

Before I came on here, I said I was going to talk about that. Well, she's CSI, and I said, What do you think? Tell me.
I won't quote you. She just quote me.
I think I said, dad.

Well, there's people, a lot of people doing what she said, which is, you know, when they go, all right, we'll submit for this. And they go, sure, I'll give you my DNA.

And then the DNA is a match, you know, that there is DNA, some DNA in this case as well, that isn't a match for the father. Right.

And I think it depends on what documentary you watch because my sister just watched one that John was leading, right? And so she said, there's no way. She said, Burke reminds me of Jack.

My son's Jack. He's eight.
There's no way he's going to kill. I said, well, what if it was accidental and then they cover it up? And she's like, I just think it's not true.

And I'm not saying, I feel bad. If John,

if he is innocent and think of the life and the hell he went through. But

it's just bizarre to know that there's too many things. I don't know.
It's so bizarre. So bizarre.
But you're right about that. So Cheryl McCollum is her name.
She works for Nancy Gray.

She's the most amazing person. I love her.
And she's like, Susan,

this is Cheryl. She said,

if I was looking for Caroline, her daughter, would I say,

I found her? Or would I say, like, just the, she picks up on things that I don't. Like, and then there she was.
Wouldn't you say, oh my God, there's my son. Like,

but then I think back to, like, do we, do we put ourselves in that situation and think, how would we react? But the truth is, the Chris Watts, the Scott Peterson, they don't act right.

They don't act right. They don't act right.
They don't act right. And the dad, when he carried John Benet's body, which I found.
And invited all the friends over. And invited the friends over.

And then not only that, carries John Benet's body out like this. Now, if you find your dead child, I would cradle.
I don't give a fuck what evidence.

This is not the way you carry the child you just found murdered on the floor. I would be to my body looking for life and holding it.
Yeah.

I don't even hold my fucking dog, my cat like that. Right.
And you put yourself in the shoe.

And yes, there have been situations where people have been accused and they didn't do it because we always think, oh, it's your closest too.

But in the Delphi case, the grandfather, Mike, I say grandfather, he's like in the 60s. He's like, check me out, test me.
You know,

I know they go to family first.

But with John Benet, I think the fascination was, and I remember same thing as you mentioned, Tom, with the Menendez brothers. Even I knew them.

One of them, Lyle, went to high school with my sister at Princeton Day School. I went to East Brunswick Tennis Club with them, and we knew the tennis bro Merrick.

And it's funny because my dad remembers this. They stopped by.
It was him and Lyle. the older one.
And we weren't home. I was 14.

I probably should have been hanging out with a 19-year-old tennis guy, right?

But so they stopped by, we weren't there. And Merrick used to say to me, you know, Susan, you got to meet this Lyle.
He's crazy. He'd pull up to Norwick Airport and appors and just leave it.

And that's where he parked. And he'd

pay for the towing.

So when it came out on People Magazine and going to high school in Princeton, Chuck's was right near us. We ate there all the time, the restaurant they bought.

Just like you said, you don't think about it. Thank God murder wasn't my business at 17.
I'm like, oh, really? They killed for money and then you move on.

But they had, now that I think about it, they had access to all the money anyway. You don't kill your parents for an extra couple million.
No, was the shopping spree? I asked Anne Burgess.

She testified in the first trial. And she said, They had access.
That was like a way of saying you're gone.

You know, and I, and oh, I also interviewed one of the jurors, Hazel Thornton from the first trial. She said to me, Susan, I'm like, tell me what it's like when you go back and you're talking.

It's divide. And remember, 90s,

men against women. Men were like, no way would a father abuse their kids sexually, no, it just doesn't happen.
Boys, and are they gay?

That's what the men were saying, yes, and the women are like not to say let them walk, they're it's a horrific crime, you saw, yeah, but they were saying manslaughter, they'd be out by now.

So, that's the argument.

Hazel has said to me, I've been on with her, and she's like, Susan, I'm not saying they should have walked, no one's saying that, but 35 years is enough, and and considering the horrific abuse, and the DA, Gil Garcetti at the time, just lost OJ.

So he's like, we can't, a lot of this is political. We can't lose this.
No abuse is allowed in the second trial.

One of the most telling things was that in the documentary that came out recently about them, that the prosecutor, and prosecutors are always like, fucking lock this piece of shit up.

She's a Spitfire. She's a real Spitfire.
And she goes,

the day, that's the woman right there. Where is she? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She goes, the day that that guy died, the father, she goes, the world became a better place.

So for the prosecutor to say that, you know, she was like, this guy, she goes, I couldn't find one character witness for the father. Not one.
Not even one he paid. None.

Think about how much money he had. No one.
He must have been just a real fucking horrible guy. Well,

they have 20 family members, even on his side, who say, let these guys out. Like, that's why I believe.

But when I was watching that, I remember being young and watching that and being like, ooh, I don't know about the sweaters.

And I don't think as a society, we could wrap our brains around that that would happen.

No, because I remember growing up and thinking like, oh, those two douchebags killed her. Me too.

Cause you don't think about that context for sure.

But you shouldn't kill your mommy and daddy. I mean, there's a lot of people are abused, but geez, Louise.
No, absolutely. I totally paid their debt to society.

I see what you're saying 100% because my mom says that.

Why do you have to talk about the Menenas all the time? And she goes, and they shot their parents. And I said, I know, mom, but I said, I don't want to get into details.

But if you watch the documentary about Menudo

and

nothing against that industry back then, but now that we know what we know, what did he have access to and how evil was it?

But I think, obviously, when they went to reload and shoot the mom. There's a lot of hatred in there.
Rage. Rage.
Rage.

But I do think that they paid their debt to society. I truly believe that.
And all of their family members.

If they were even, you know, the father's family members, that's interesting that nobody liked the guy. Not one.

She goes, that's the reason, she goes, we couldn't even have a character witness brought to the trial because we couldn't find one. I think people think money equals problem solved.

And therefore, why would anyone with money do that? It hides a lot of things, I think. And I even think with the Ramseys, like people are like, oh, no, that wouldn't happen.
Look at the facade.

Like, look at the way they look and their house. And the,

you know,

I think that, and I do that, I fall into that of like, well, they don't look like they should look. They don't look like Manson.

What could possibly be wrong? But I think secrets are held tight inside of houses and you never know. And that's part of the crime obsession.
You're watching, you're like, 20, why would I?

It's all the questions. You have unanswered questions, of course.
And I don't know if we ever hear a why and go, well, that makes sense.

But that's like the, you know, this is like the, it's the, the reason why Hitchcock became a phenomenon. It's like you go, this thing happened, and then you, you want to piece it together.

Everyone wants to piece things together. You want an explanation.
You want the answer at the end. Yep.
And every time a crime occurs, it's a new question. Right.
And you go, like, what?

Like, it's just this.

I found, so the

trial

of Richard Allen and Delphi, there are, it's a business. And so I saw ABC, NBC, they're swarming.

And like, who's getting exclusives? And do you know the family? And can you get the,

and it's, it's. And you guys all end up competing too, because Netflix puts out the doc, and then all of a sudden there's a dateline special, and then there's a CNN special.

Like everybody has to do their story on it. I think you guys who paved the way, it's true.

Last night I didn't realize how long you guys have been doing this, but you really did pave the way of different media. And

what I love about you guys is people kind of talk about their feelings and talk about who they are. And at CNN, it's like teleprompter and anchor hair.
And it's funny, Mr.

Ballin, I met with him about his charity. And I said, can I even say this, fuck? And he goes, I love that.
You said, fuck. He goes, you have anchor hair, but we love you.
So it made me laugh.

I'm like, that's because of you guys. At CNN, I'd be like, pulled off.
But my point is, I think that you allow conversations to happen. And that's why I really love you guys because it's authentic.

And at CNN, I remember producers in my head is like, Susan, I said,

you're kind of funny. We like the commercial break, Susan.
Oh.

I'm like, but I can't do the commercial break, Susan. I'd like,

you know, it's like three, two, one. Sure.
Yeah. Pretend to be.
Coming up tomorrow with the anchor voice. So I digress, but you guys allow for this conversation to happen.

And I forget your question, wouldn't you? No, that's.

I want to ask you this. The gays are going nuts for Luigi Mangion.

And

so is the rest of society but gays i think they too i think me too if you saw my screenshots so i was getting my haircut the other day and i i was looking at like a haircut i liked and the guy got some hair goes why is luigi andre farmer i go i know it was a screenshot of him i'm sorry stunning

handsome young man smart smart uh young young he's very young um the gays really are going crazy if you go on twitter it's like gay twitter um and also like there's a lot lot of debate over whether that penis pic is real.

Wait, wait, really?

You guys, I'm behind on the.

What pic? We broke the story. What? The dick pic story? The dick pic.

You didn't see the story. Please, Plum, it's time to mute this.
What? Susan? What? You got to see his dumb.

No. Well, people were saying whether or not it's a Photoshop.
Oh. Where?

Well, there's a

perp walk. Did you guys see the perp walk with the mayor who's in trouble with Diddy? Eddie's on the perp walk.
The perp walk was kind of crazy.

Well, there's. oh, that pick.
Nope, that's not the one, but that is one. That's not the one.
That's not the one. That's a good one.

But that's an example of.

I think he's closer to my son's age than my age. All right, let's see.

I know what the draw is, though. What is the draw?

The Robin Hood type of guy. Like my husband's father passed away last week.
He was 70 at COPD for a while. He had got COVID.
They put him in the hospital, nicest guy. We all went to Disney last year.

Anyway, his insurance,

they sent him home early.

And he died. He was, I mean, and my husband was talking to him on the phone watching a Broncos game.
And my husband said, do you think he got too excited? He couldn't breathe.

I'm like, he should have been in the hospital still. Or they said with rehab to build up the lungs.
And he died. He was mentally fine.
He was only 70. So I, and he said, it's the insurance thing.

I said, that's why that guy. It really did like open our eyes.
We're all talking about that. It sparked, which actually kind of defines how terrorism works, right? Because, like, a terrorist attack

isn't about the act of violence. It's usually done to point your eyes towards a cause, right? And then, and then that's when, that's when they consider it a success.

It's like if you, you do the horrific act of violence and they go, What was, why did this happen? We did it because of this.

And then, if you're discussing this and you're changing the way you view something, that's like a successful terrorist attack. This was killing one person, but it's

oh, there it is.

Yeah, that's not it.

That's it. Oh, that's the one that people are saying.
That's a fake. People are saying that might be a fake.
Susan, please look. This is very important.

Do you think that's this real piece?

Now we're going to go to a commercial break. Well, the lighting seems like oh my god, you guys.
I mean, isn't that crazy? Now you can see why. Do you do this at CNN?

Now you can see why gay Twitter is going nuts. A producer would would be my air and go, B-roll.
We got B-roll.

Roll it.

These are B-roll. Is that authentic? Oh, my gosh, you guys.
He's too young for me even to be able to think he's a little bit scuttering.

Look at it like you're a pediatrician. Do you think

I think it's real? You think it's real?

I don't know because now looking at that, we did see that picture last time we discussed it. The shadowing, the light, it seems a little blurry at the head.
It's a hog.

Do you see the head is a little blurry? Yeah. It's in the foreground, and therefore it should be a clear image, correct?

Look,

as a society, we came together over this guy. Wait, did that sound right? Okay, we all got together

over this guy. Yeah.

But, but, but, but, there's clearly something wrong. The mom was called and she said,

is this your son? Like, he has a huge family. Like, if that was my son, Jack, oh my God.
But if that was like, I'd be like, that's my. Just don't close it.
Just move it off frame for a moment.

I don't want her to lose her frame. I'm Catholic.

I would, you know, she said I could see him doing that. So I'm wondering, was this the beginning of schizophrenia? I'm just making that up.
Like, was something

that I've been talking about. You want to think that he's the normal

University of Pennsylvania. I think he was this normal, obviously very bright guy.
He's valedictorian. You've been

really sharp guy.

But he started to retreat from his normal connections. Nobody was in touch with him.

that's not normal behavior, especially for somebody in their early 20s.

Started to post and write, you know, things that were not of the norm, like his

going on, I think, some Reddit rants and maybe on Twitter about his, the, you know, his feelings about the healthcare industry.

And, and, so you have these kind of behaviors that indicate something is changing, right? Then the actual act of pulling off this assassination.

And now you have,

you know, they had the very short manifesto written that he was like, this was my work alone, and didn't want to, I didn't include anybody else on this, but now pleading not guilty to it, which is.

Matching the lawyer sweater, isn't that weird? And the husband of that woman is P. Diddy's lawyer.
They're a dream team, though. I mean, if anyone could get them off.

I don't see how you can get off on this. I really don't.
Well, there's something called,

is it jury nullification, which basically means they could go back. Same thing with OJ, in my opinion.

Oh, that a jury might let him off. Yeah, a jury might be, hey, you know,

maybe Nicole did not, but that there's a bigger issue. It was Rodney King, it just happened.
And I understand. And they were,

I remember, I think I was interning at a Fox affiliate in Phoenix. I went to Arizona State.
So I was, but I remember

watching that. And I...

Theater, he was a superstar, right? But I'm wondering, is this guy a superstar? Kind of.

For a certain portion of the population, he is. Yeah.
But mentally, did I think OJ would kill again? No. No.

Would, I don't know. I don't know the mental stability of Luigi.
I don't know. Luigi might be like, I mean,

it's reasonable to believe that he might have a new agenda or see somebody else that is reasonable to go after.

Not that I think he's a

career kid. He probably knows so much more than we know.
Oh, for sure. You know, because what a heartbreak for them.
This kid, I watched his high school speech, Val Victorian.

I still don't know how to spell it, much less be it. For him to do that speech, it's like, what happens?

But there is schizophrenia with boys, and I think girls, I think, more boys at that particular time.

That's when he could show so. So the fact that he had this

surgery that,

you know, to have spinal surgery. But did he? Someone I saw on a show was saying, how do we know that's his x-ray? Well, yeah, but I think he's he did, though, right? He wasn't.

He's been, you can find him talking about him going through this. I wonder if that pain shifted something.
Oh,

that pain can shift something in you for sure.

And pills and whatever else he was taking

can mess with your mind, and you can kind of fall into schizophrenia at an early age because of that. But, you know,

he was in real pain, I think, with his back problems. I remember after September 11th, I think I was in Palm Springs at the time, everyone coming together.

And, of course, I feel like, and not to compare this to that, but in terms of how, like, doesn't matter what party, everyone agrees that our health care system

is a disaster. Yeah.
Is a disaster, whoever you ask. And maybe like, if you can afford, it shouldn't be that you could afford it.
And I was thinking, like, so

I was thinking this about my, I should have stepped in. We should have gotten him a private nurse.
And why can't we step? I didn't know how bad he was. It was sudden, though.

I didn't know that they sent him home. And we didn't know.
But it shouldn't even be that. If you pay, pay, he's paying health insurance.
He does it, and it's people get so egregious.

Yeah, and so I think that's the connection.

Coverage, and you're like, He's the symbolic, yes, he's the symbol of it. Face of it, and he happens to be good-looking.
I know, thank God we chose a handsome fella.

Well, it would be, I've thought about this: that if he were

not a good-looking guy, there would still be people who'd be like, Yeah, I get why you did this, and like supporting the fact that, like, Chris Rocks of that, he's like, Come on, but he's like, this change this guy looked like someone else, we'd be over it.

He's good-looking, right and smart and came from that like succession family yeah i'm dying a deep dive there like what

or it's interesting too that the grandmother what the grandmother had a 30 million dollar um

fortune that she left to her children and grandchildren right of which he is one and in the

will

it notes like if anybody is convicted of a felony oh that you don't get a piece of this But I'm like, this is such an interesting thing to think you have to put in there. You know what I mean?

Like, I just, but who does that? Yeah, like, who goes, well, no felonies, though. That sounds like succession.
Yeah. Like, that there would, she predicted that something like that would happen.

I remember my Aunt Jeannie, who didn't die with much, you'd go, I love my Aunt Jeannie and Uncle Peter. You'd go in their house and it felt like at a madman.

And they, I think they grew up in the Depression, so they had Campbell's soup. But they, he, my dad, who's an attorney, was the executor.

And he said, Uncle Peter had $200,000, like, stuff was hidden in mattresses. But they left it to like my mom and certain people, but not the cousin that was divorced.
That was the end for that.

That was their line. Yeah, like divorce, but felonies apparently with this family.
But I wonder if it does go to trial. He's charged federally.

But it's funny, I had questions about terrorism, and you answered it.

Well, because they, and it was a big deal because when he was originally arrested, they were saying that they were going to charge him with second-degree murder.

Because in New New York is a more likely conviction. And the sentencing guidelines for that, they felt like they could for sure do that.
And

then there was the shift to make it first-degree terrorism, which is a much, but there's a much higher burden of proof for that. So there's a lower threshold to convict on second-degree.

But I think with the fact that,

well, the video, obviously they confiscated the backpack, the, you know, they had the gun there. That's interesting.
With Casey Anthony, there was a criticism of overcharge. So she walked.

That could be interesting. Could be the, yeah.

I heard this morning that P. Diddy is jealous of how much attention he's getting.

Because they're in the same prison. And they have husband and wife lawyers.
The wife is his lawyer. The husband's P.
Diddy. So P.
Diddy's furious. He's like, why is everybody talking about Luigi, man?

That is so ridiculous. But he's furious.
It's interesting about murder and what we think. And looking at, I remember seeing that video and thinking, who has a silencer? This was a hit.

And then the bike. But then is it true that like a female flirting brought him down? Like, I mean, that's.
Well, that's how that photo got circulated. Yeah.

The photo was circulated because, like, if it's not for this photo, we don't have a face. So if you don't have a face, how would people know who to look for? You didn't have any.

If you're a savvy and you planned it, like, you don't flirt with the. No, he's out of his gorgeous.
You're right. You know what's interesting, though, is that I feel more afraid of a P.

Diddy than I do. So do I.
I was just going to say that.

We have different lines. Like, with BTK, who was absolutely nuts and would kill again, and he said that out loud in court.

Would certain people kill again? Like, that's, it's almost like the Menendez. Like, when is a murder?

And I guess that's why, obviously, they have the legal system and parole. It's like, would they do it again? How have they acted in prison? And I guess that matters to the new journey.
Diddy was in a

torturing people. And it's torturing people.

Diddy? I think he tried to kill Jamie Foxx or somebody. I don't know.
The more I go down it, I don't know what to believe with him. But it's like, again, I ask why.
You have everything.

What are you doing? Well, I mean, that was calligraphy. That's the big thing.
He was just like unchecked resources and power that just kept growing and growing. And then that...

For him, it feels like it was just like to get that dopamine drip, you just had to keep raising the bar until it got into this really sick, dark world.

I I don't mean who knows what would have been next for him if you follow the story. It's almost what happens to you, though.

I feel like I'm not saying that everyone's abused who commits murder, but kind of, I think so. It's like, what happened to you?

Oh, yeah. But there are people that are abused that never do this.
I'm not saying that that excuses it. But usually when it's like

serial killers, people that have patterns of repeated violence, you almost always, always find neglect and abuse, almost 100%. I asked Gabby Petito's Petito's dad that he was wonderful.

Joe Petito, I said to him, I went to his house in Florida. He's from Long Island, though, him and his wife.
And

they were setting up lights and it took forever. And I said, I got to know him.

Wait, where? Oh, oh, my gosh, this is embarrassing. So I was doing a Gabby Petito special at CNN and I was doing this.
And I was exhausted. And I'm walking to the parking lot.

And they're like, keep trying to call Joe. Here's his number.
I'm like, hello. He answered, Susan? I said, yeah, it's Susan Hendrix.
How you doing? He goes, good. And I start hysterically crying.

I'm overtired. I'm like, I'm so sorry.
And he's like, don't worry about it. It's going to be all right.
I'm like, this guy's making me feel. I'm mortified.
It's a father.

And I just said, I'm so sorry. I just, because the video came out of her, that body cam video of her.

And I think that was my peak of like, okay, I need a break here. I'm crying to this dad.

But so I got to know him and I, and I said, what do you think happened? This is off the camera. And he he goes, I'm going to show you something on my phone.
And it's not out yet.

I'm going to show you something. I said, all right.
He goes, Gabby texts me this that day and it's her with a huge black eye. And I'm like, oh my.
And he goes, I said, do you think it's his father?

Like his upper. I was trying to, and I had gotten to know him.
And he goes, the mom, the mom. And I said, what? And he goes, did you see the note that came out? It said, burn after reading.

Like, it was, so body cam footage came out where he was seen smacking across the face. I think she was, so an an assessment had been done.
That was in Utah. And I interviewed the assessor of this, who

was the police chief, who said, based on what he saw and investigated, she was the victim of long-term abuse. The girl was.
Yeah. And I think watching that, I think I saw myself

from home. From him.
No. Oh, from him.

But long-term, meaning at that age, it could be a couple of years. And I saw a little bit of myself in like who you dated at that age.
Oh, yeah.

And so when I saw that in the newsroom, it was very different than my friend Sammy,

who is 25.

He's like, she seems a little off too. I'm like, oh, God, only certain people see what I see.
Yeah. Because he had kind of conned the cops who were there and said, is everything all right?

And he's like,

you saw him suck them in. It was something that I'll never forget seeing.
And

the father said, I can't watch that. That's not really Gabby.
I'll watch part of it, he said, but it gets very depressing. And he said, What keeps their family going?

So, Gabby's mom and dad were divorced when she was three. They're good friends with the now step parents.
They're all good friends. They were at CrimeCon one year, and they're funny and nice.

They went golfing with my husband. They're nice.
They came together. Now they're trying to help others, like people who don't get as much attention as Gabby.

Because I was asked that at CrimeCon, like, why? Because she's blonde and pretty. And is that why? And I said, I'm not sure.
I don't make the decisions at CNN.

I don't know if that comes first, then the attention comes, or is it we put it out first? But they're right. Everyone should get equal attention.
And now Joe and his family fight for that.

But he said watching that, her mom said watching that, her mom's a cool, that she knew.

She knew right after that. And seeing that is horrible.
Can I ask you this? When you've met people. that have committed crime, violent crimes, do you feel

an energy from them? For instance, in that John Bonet documentary on Netflix, the first policewoman that shows up, she says, I locked eyes with the father, with John, and I knew, and I knew.

Like, did you, do you feel a cold breeze? I will say that that's a great question. I felt it in Delphi when I first walked into the hearing.
This was at the end of July.

And when he turned around, and I know it's easy to say because he's an orange, you know,

but that look was like, oh my God. And it's not about me.
So I'm with the family. They said to me, Susan, come over here.
It's inappropriate.

I always said, now I hear my son say, that's inappropriate.

And so I said, I was like, they're like, no, come here. So I sat with him and he just glared.
And that's, I never got a feeling like that.

But it's not often that I meet the guy, like the alleged perpetrator, whoever. I usually meet the families, the Joe Petitos, not the Brian, the guy who's accused.

But with John Ramsey, I didn't feel it. But,

and I wonder if I would have with BTK. It's interesting because I felt it with him, but he was in, and he was looking at me, and he was also at the ceiling doing this.

No, this is

Richard Allen.

And then when the trial came along, I think he was faking it. Then I saw a interview that he did.
And he acted normal. Because I was watching him and I go, how did the wife not know he was nuts?

Because the wife's sitting over there. Then I see an interview interrogation that he did.
And I'm like, because he's faking it. He is

normal.

I think the people who are able to do that, if I met him and he wasn't arrested, I don't think I'd be able to do it. I don't think you would be.
I think they're good at it.

Well, what about these eyes? Look into these eyes. What do you see? What do you feel? I feel the coldness.
He's too much of an intellect. The coldness.
The coldness. The dead, the dead.

You know,

my first gig was I worked for America's Most Wanted. What? I didn't know that.
Yeah, I was an associate producer on Final Justice. You love that.
And then I switched over to America's Most Wanted.

You know, I can't wait to call my husband because he's like,

I'm a huge fan. He's like, it's definitely going to be the wife who knows all about the murder stuff.

He's not even going to know what you're talking about. Yeah.

I don't like it. I don't like it, Susan.
Let me tell you, I don't like it. And

I get more terrified because this could be your neighbor. This could be the school teacher.
This is called nuts. They're called news moms.
I'm side go.

I got to ask you this, though, because you said you interviewed BTK's daughter. Yeah.

That story is obviously one of the most famous, horrific stories. But when you realize that this guy had the family and the like, like,

what was she like? What, what did you gather from her? She was awesome. She was really amazing.
She's very, you could tell that her nervous system is shot. And she said that she,

her dad would say to her, be careful, be careful that BTK, you know, lock the doors or do

yes. And so

she, I felt her get her mojo back, so to speak. Like at CrimeCon, I think it's a good thing it gave her strength.

She was a, and, oh my gosh, so there's a QA session at the end, uh, and she wrote about it.

uh two kids with her husband but it caused a divorce and of course she says she has ptsd and all of that but when the fbi first showed up at her door they said she thought her grandmother died they mentioned some

someone

it didn't click until they said, your father's BTK. And she said, my life changed from then on out.
I had no idea. None.
Zero.

And the mom and, of course, the brother, everybody was shocked.

I think she said, I have to own it. I can't hide from this.
But I hope that people know that I,

of course, they know you had nothing to do with it. So someone stood up at the end and this gave her strength.
I never thought I would hear this. And I said, okay, you're next.

And she said, hi, Carrie. I wasn't going to come, but I I heard you were here.
My dad's also a serial killer. No.

And I went, only a crime con, a place called crime, that you would find that. Somebody else saying that.
Yeah. That's cool.
And

so they walk up to her and say, hey, you know, and I asked Kevin that who puts it on with his brother, how do you keep out the crazies? Because you would think they'd be there. Yeah.

And he said, well, it's two things. If anyone does anything bad, they're out.
Escorted out. But I price them out.
It's expensive. These people have like backstage for $1,000 that meet and greet.

And it's weird. He was able to do this upstairs.
And it's different cities each time. It's like they have sweatshirts that say, I'm basically a detective and like a payphone.

I'm like, I remember people and like cutouts of the dateline people.

But then on a different floor, it's with Delphi, like flyers. We want you to help out.
But everybody's kind. They really are.

They're spending a lot of money to be there. They want to be there.
And a good friend of mine, he used to play for the Falcons, Koy Wire. I I worked with them for years at CNN.

And he's like, oh my gosh, my wife is so jealous. She was at the first Crime Con in New Orleans.
I'm like, really?

Why?

But I, but because people love 2020 dateline.

And I think, I don't have the exact answer, but I think it's because people feel more in control maybe.

It comes down to like a mystery, who would do it and why. It's not so much a crime, like a drive-by shooting.

It's more like who did it? Who did it? Yeah. And why.
And we never know why. We're always like, why?

Well, and I was watching Gladiator 2 this morning as I was walking in my treadmill. And I do think, you know, that is a primitive yearning that humans need violence.
We need that sublimation.

It's a bad guy. We need to see bloody, awful stuff because it is a part of the human experience, unfortunately.
I don't know. Maybe it's a cruel thing.
Maybe

I was able to watch Friday the 13th at age like 12. Really? I tell my mom that, and she's like, I didn't know you were watching that.

I'm like, we were screaming the VCR tape of like Jason slaughtering people.

If my son's, like, now I'm, I'm, I overcompensate, but clearly he knows what's going on because I did order books and the first person to see, oh my gosh, now I have to write this.

How am I going to write it? And tracking this was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. So I ordered these books and he goes, mom, murder.
And I said, oh, no, that's an actress.

He goes, oh, shoot. I'm like, my daughter is older.
She would never do that. He's definitely in tune to different things, dude.
He's like, murder. You want to see some wild shit?

I don't know if you've seen this. This is

Brian. I'm like, I'm in.

Yeah, of course. This is

Brian Cohey Jr. You saw this? No.
I thought you were going to say Coberger. Parents have some concerns of some stuff they may have found in your room?

School shit. Yeah, I believe so.
And what would it be?

A human head and hands.

Like, for real, human head and hands? Yes. From

that fellow who went missing recently. Which fellow was that? Warren Brown.
Warren Brown? When did he go missing?

The night of the 27th. The night of the 27th? Okay.
And how did you end up with him?

I murdered him. With what? A knife.
It's like a domer knife. Why would you have done that? I've always wondered what murder felt like.

How do you know this guy?

They told me that that was what was in the wallet.

What do you mean that was in the water? No, fine. How did you come across this gentleman? How did you come across the gentleman? I was driving

and I saw a strange shape near the railway. Uh-huh.
So

I parked my car and investigated it, and I found it to be a man sleeping. Okay.

Where's the knife at?

It is in my sunken car. Well, it's in my car.
I had that. Previously, so

when I killed him,

I tried disposing of his body back there so much I just

I don't know how you guys are in it

right now

where's the rest of the body at what parts the rest of it homie

down the river down the river I'm gonna have you walk over here you're gonna sit in the back of my

partner's control uh patrol car for a minute okay

just sit back there hang out for me okay why do you just keep the head and hands I wonder and the rest is down the river I'm good sir how are you you said your name's Brian yeah I'm not feeling too well no too well.

I know these past days, I've been very, very anxious. Yeah, understandable.
So, what we're going to have you do here is I'm just going to have you sit in the back here, okay?

I'm going to turn on the air for you in a second.

That way, you're not too hot. Are you hot blooded or cold? We knew about Jeffrey Dahmer, and then the whole new generation learned about it.

That documentary is very much. So you prefer the cold? Okay, fantastic.
Hop down here, Rob. So hop in here.
I know you're tall, so it's a little bit of a tight squeeze.

But like I said, I'll be done here on Morning.

We go back to British shows.

Oh, we got more, right, Sean? My mom's like, why don't you watch Hallmark? Christmas. I'm like, okay.
And she called me and said, get out, we go right now.

Oh, they have to blur it out.

Oh, wait. Was it one done?

I don't want to look at it.

Yep.

Yeah. So.

But you see how he was like.

Is this a serial killer? No. no.
What state?

I got to go throw up. Excuse me.
I have to. Colorado.
Grand P, really? Colorado. Grand Junction, Colorado.
Grand Junction. Okay.
I'm going to piss.

You're going to leave right now? I have to pee so bad. I'm so anxious and nervous.
Watching murders.

I'm sorry. I have to piss.

She's such a bummer about this shit. Wait, how old is that kid?

He was 19 when he murdered a 69-year-old guy. I know.
It is weird. I think when Nancy Grace came into HLN CNN, it was and the Casey Anthony, it's all about ratings and numbers.

So that's when it kind of shifted. That's when I kind of got into the all-crime

genre. So it is my job.
It's weird. I mean, I think there's also something about just how many,

you know, when you say like, it'd be great if everybody could get the same coverage,

just how many. horrific crimes occur, particularly in this country like this, violent crimes.

And what I realized with Gabby Petito's dad told me that in the national parks, like there are dead bodies that are there, and no one talks about it.

Because I did say to him, Look, I'm going to be a crime con with you, and that's going to be a question. I even asked my bosses at CNN, I'm like, How do you think I should answer?

Because they're like, Well, don't bring that up. I'm like, I'm not going to bring it up.
They're going to bring it up. Yeah.
Why do we cover blonde, pretty girls, or like the Casey Anthony's?

I hope this isn't airing because I'm scared, but okay.

I don't know what the answer is. I think it's about what catches on.
I know it sounds callous.

Part of it, though, is the fact that when you show

a blonde 20-year-old who's gone missing or whatever, people's attention also just sparks for that. It's not just the fact that you showed her.
It's that people go, oh, what?

And to me, I guess if I were to answer, it'd be like, oh, we saw Gabby because she has, you know, videos now and kids have younger have things.

With Scott Peterson's wife, it was just that one still shot.

do you remember with lacey peterson now kids have videos and you're able to kind of get a peek into their lives did you watch that doc which one the scott peterson yeah yeah

i forgot i forgot so much about that case with his ponytail but i'm like someone said to me at cnn and you kind of joke you get used to what you do not joke about anyone dying but you get used to what you do and if you don't laugh you lose your mind yeah but someone's like How about that aging on Scott Peterson?

What's going on with the skincare? Meaning he looks good. I'm like,

you know, you kind of have to. He sleeps sleeps like a baby.
Yeah. Yeah.
The sister being like, still. That sister-in-law.

I'm sorry. She's in love with her.
She's in love with her.

But the

crazy, one of the things that stands out so much is his behavior in the initial interrogation. Oh, my God.
Like, the Christmas Eddie. The guys who do this, who don't cry, they have this raspy voice.

They're like, we're looking for Liz, eh? Like, they have like this raspy, like, I don't know where she is, trying to sound sad. Practice it, Tom.
It's a raspy, like, fried voice with no tears.

Christina's gone. And I hope.
Is that good? A new whisper. Yep, perfect.
Christina.

I'll be fine.

And that's it. No tears.

He was like,

he's like, yeah, I got back. I went fishing.
And then I saw the dog was out. And then...
I don't know. Yeah, I hope we're going to go.
I'm fishing on Christmas Day.

And Nancy Gray is like fishing on Christmas Day. I love Nancy Grace.
Didn't he like order a pizza before he called and called her in missing or something? He was so chill. Oh, he got, no.

Remember, the cops arrested him. He had an orange beard.

He took classes at Arizona State, my alum.

But he, and they're like, are you hungry? And they went through a drive-through and he got like in and out. They're like, are you hungry? And he was like, yeah, I'm starving.
Yeah.

That just kills my wife. No qualms.
But I mean,

he did the worst perform, like of a, as far as putting on a performance, he was just like, yeah, and the dog was out, so I knew something was wrong. Yeah, the dog.

So, yeah, she's just, I don't know where she is. Like, but I hope you find her.
It's like, this is your pregnant wife on Christmas Eve, and you're like, I hope you find her.

I don't know what to tell you, man. How about his mistress? I really liked her.
She's really nice. She's forward.
And, like,

he's like, oh, hey, I'm in Paris.

I see the FL Tower.

There's the FL Tower. And she knows at that point that what, you know, what's going on.
So she has to be like, oh, cool. Yeah.

Do you see now this is my job? so i would listen to you guys and was on the algorithm and was like

all i wanted to do was laugh yeah because it's like so i don't want to extract

and i am i will say i'm a little nuts like i'm so aware of my surroundings that i was at the gym and i hit this uh

the elevator and i noticed like a guy was supposed to get off on the button he clicked but he didn't he got off on where i did and i'm like

and i take a right and i'm like i'm nuts i'm nuts i I remember one time I'll never forget this stranger danger baby

I was a exchange I was a foreign exchange student I was in Madrid and the bus that would go to my stop I was it was taking it in the evening and I got up from the back of the bus and a woman in the front of the bus was getting off and she turned around and saw me.

And when I got off with her, she ran. Like she ran.

And like, and I like, like screaming, ran. So I chased her.
What? I did because I was like, this is so fun to see somebody that's scared.

It was fun. Let the record show that he was joking about it.
If I go missing, guys,

my favorite clip of you guys is Bill Burr being like, no, you're

who's the bigger psycho. Oh, yeah.
Total.

Please. I didn't know you worked for America's Most Wanted.
Yeah, he loves it. Remember the Mill Cartons? Was anyone ever found from that? Jesus Christ, I hope so.
I think so. But that showed

a lot of people.

Oh, yeah, yeah. America's Most One had caught so many people.
Oh, with what's his name? Sean Walsh? Yes. Yeah.

That when Fox went to cancel the show after it had been on for years, there was a backlash that was so big that they brought it back. Good.

Because they were showing, they're like, look, his show's already caught like 800 people. Yeah.
It was

public service. It was like public service.
Always. I don't know if you guys are aware of this subculture.

So outside of trials, I covered this, but with like Karen Reed, there's these people on YouTube who want clicks, and there was Turtle Boy, who's like the conspiracy theorist, and like, she's innocent.

She was accused of killing her Boston

cop husband. But, you know,

so there are people who now go to these trials. So the Brian Koberger trial is coming up at the end of August.
Yeah. And that Idaho.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I got to know Stacey.

Who's this psycho? Sorry. Ethan Chapin is,

you know, one of the college kids who were murdered in the

off-campus home, the three girls and the boy.

I got to know Ethan Chapin's mom, and I said to her, would you do

be on a panel with me? I'm interviewing like Yardley Love, who was killed in a lacrosse. She played lacrosse at University of Virginia.
And so I was doing a panel on kind of how do you recover?

What is the strength? And there's a lot of gag orders. And I said, we won't talk about the specifics.
And she said, I will. And she's so nice.
She called me.

like two weeks before she goes you didn't tell me the name of it i go i know I'm sorry. CrimeCon, I left that to the end.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

I was like, I know. And she goes, I'll do it.
And then

I really love her. She's like, I don't think I'm going to the trial.
Nothing can bring my son back. She's like, he was at his girlfriend's house.

And the one thing I will say, I know this sounds very depressing, and we keep bringing up different murders.

The families that I've met and the strength that I got from them, and that's the focus of my book,

it's unprecedented. If you think you're you're going through something, it really is.
And you guys do that too.

Like, I feel like your genre and what you guys do, when you guys were one of the first, it's like men don't talk about things back then that you guys talk about. Like, oh,

Theo Vaughn, maybe I'm depressed or maybe

emotions though. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
For my husband to watch it, that wasn't talked about. They watched like football games.
You guys are

doing something wonderful. And I'm doing good work here as well.
I kind of thought through it. You are, but I thought through it.
Like, that's what that does.

It's like they can get through it, then I can get through it. And I think hurt people are drawn

to CrimeCon. They really are.
Don't you think there's

to meet other people, too, that have been victims of

any? And even not maybe of a murder, but just

something. Something biased.
There's always something in the eyes, though. Oh, I know.
This guy's out of his fucking head. The eyes are really open.
Wouldn't talk to that kid. Wouldn't talk to him.

And I remember talking to Paul Holz about it. He said, remember he saw snow or there's something snow.

Like that is, I don't know if it's a sign of schizophrenia, obviously, but something was up clearly. And remember the dad driving him across the country?

But in that picture, like if he's a teacher at your college, you're not thinking

mass murderer.

He wants Jake Gyllenhaal to play him. Is that what he's saying?

If this tells you anything, don't trust anyone. I mean, you could turn paranoid, so that's why I have to balance it out.
And my mom's like, watch Hallmark Christmas movies

with the same plot.

So it is a little,

but it is, again, the strength from the families. It is a little,

oh, yeah, Jake Jill and all I could see.

I think also I have an aversion to this type of stuff because I grew up in Los Angeles during the Night Stalker as a child. Yeah, so did my good, my college roommate.
And it was so scary.

We were all terrified this guy was going to climb in our windows at night. And it's a very, there he is, childhood fear.

I think that may have saved my life, and here's why. But as ditzy as ditzy can be, my parents said, you can go to any college you want.
My dad, and my mom's like, I can't believe you said that.

They took me to ASU. I live in New Jersey.
My mom cried the whole flight home. My sister went to Boston College.
She's like, you should go to Boston with your sister. I'm like, mom, I'm old.

Now I look at pictures. I'm like,

so my friend Terry had a Jeep and she ran out of gas all the time to ditses. And the guy pulls up like muffler-dragging

and said, hop in, girls, and has a badge. And I go, let's go.
She goes, no.

And I'm shocked she said no because I was like, why?

Like, she's like, there's growing up, there was a Nightstalker worried about you never know who's who. And I'm like, let's get in.
He has a badge. No.
Thank God.

Well,

I lived in Milwaukee during Dahmer and I got just a taste for chocolate. I was really like, this is what I want to be doing, man.
It was exciting. I think I got the Dahmer glasses.
Oh, man.

But the Nightstalk. I mean, we talk about people not looking like he looks like a killer.
That is the cool thing. How did they finally get him? I don't even know.

So the best part of that story is that it was the citizens of Los Angeles. They beat this guy in the streets.
How did they find him? They found him. He was sleeping in a window.

No, he was all over the news in L.A. You couldn't not hear about the Night Stalker.
And his picture was up everywhere.

And somebody saw him coming out of a Greyhound bus station, I think, in the neighborhood. He's trying to steal a car.

And they fucking spotted him.

And these group of dudes beat him down. Think about before social media, everyone's like, I'm sick of this guy.

And LA was. And it was the greatest thing ever that he got street.
Where did you grow up in LA? The San Fernando Valley. So it's on Clay.

Last night I turned on Anderson Cooper. I'm like, it's burning.
It's devastating.

It is devastating. It is devastating.
Yeah.

This is the worst one ever. I don't think I've been.
And get in museum. I lived it a couple of years after college, Manhattan Beach first.
And then my dad calls me. He's like, Do you have a job?

I'm like, no, I'm just moving with my friends at Manhattan Beach.

But I loved living there. And I turned it on.
I'm like, what? It's so sad. It's very cool.
Very sad. Not cool.
Oh, my God. But

there's a great doc about that, too. The Night Stock.
That's great.

Oh, maybe Jake Gyllenholm played him, right? I think I made it. Or I'm thinking of what was it where they would leave signs that they...
Zodiac? Yeah, did they ever catch that? Zodiac was... Well,

the theory is that the one guy who they presumed was him and had that it was him because there's no other there's no there's nobody else that fits the profile like he did he died um that guy who was the long island one who used to shoot people in their cars like they were kissing oh i remember this i know this one son of sam you're talking about

this is the new one this is the long island guy yeah a friend of mine chery's a fucking csi guy that woman that i'm friends with she said susan i was at his house no nancy grace show like after the fact

i'm sorry but he's an architect and that house it stands out like billy baldwin went to high school with the guy, like, because he lives in upstate and said, like, I don't know.

I mean, do you ever know? Everyone knows kind of someone in high school where you're like, hmm, I could see that. So there's the house.
And

I guess he had a room in the basement, like Silence of the Lambs. No.
Yeah. Like a soundproof.
That's quite a mug he's got on him, though, too. That is a, that's a, that is a face, man.

And it is sad going back to like the Gavi Petitos.

If these women, because they didn't have, some of them didn't have families who were going to be the dad that's standing in front of the microphone, you got away with it for longer.

This makes it so much better. He was killing prostitutes.
So it's like people were so

that. But this one woman who was on Nancy Grace was a prostitute and met him and said, no, got the vibe and was like, uh-uh.

Met at a restaurant. He was furious, but like the overpowering.
And you know, I just miss the online dating, thank God. But who do you, you never know who's who, right?

Well, we just that stalk Mary kill. What was that? Stalker lover dancer, stalker kill, and yeah,

immediately when he talks about going on a date with the first girl, and there's she's like, We had a party, we went to a bar, and she's like flipping the bird and like, oh.

And I'm like, that chick's so fucking crazy. Did you see that one? No, that one good is really good.
But I think you got to see it. I think that one I that one kept me.

I would put the Into the Fire one above that.

That one is incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what's the premise of it? Into the Fire? Yeah.

So

this woman had given up her,

this woman right here had given up her daughter for adoption. And she decides,

as an older woman now, to look up her adult daughter, who has, who she gave for.

Well, she finds that the daughter she gave up for adoption had gone missing years prior. And that's the catalyst for this whole thing.

And she ends up really being, like we were discussing earlier, she ends up being the driving force

for getting answers to, like, how, like, what do you mean my

daughter just went missing? And it's, I don't want to give it away because it's such a good story.

It's such a good story that,

I mean, it really is. It's unbelievable.
Christina, did you watch Shillianne? This one? Yeah. No.
No, but she was hearing stuff.

What happens is she's like, does she watch TV in different rooms? No, I fall asleep to him.

And I hear murder. She'll just hear, she'll be like, and then assaulted and put a cigarette out on her eyes.
And she's like, thank you. I'm trying to sleep now.

Or if it's having to do with children, I can't do it. I can't do it.
I can't. And that, when I entered weekends on C, I would say, okay, this rundown, it's a Saturday.

It's literally, I said, no dead kids. Like, this is horrific.
And I know that we shouldn't like, I'm sorry, but I can say that. Like, with kids, I can't.
Yeah, I know.

I don't want to watch any kids' stories. I don't.
I'm telling you, you just did the adoption. No, this is different.

John Bonet is where I drew the line, and I got obsessed with John Bonet and Maddie McConne. And I was like, I can't do this anymore.

What do you think happened? I think what you said to the extent of some maybe neglect, because they were, so if people don't know, it was a group of tourists, English tourists, and they were what

in Portugal. And they decide to not get babysitters.
Instead, they let all their children

sleep alone. Right.

And instead, they have tapas,

how many feet away, around a bush, down the hotel. And they figure we can check on these kids every so often.
They should be fine. Well, one of the kids disappears.

I think, oh, I think they drugged her because they're doctors. They probably drugged the children to go to sleep.
And I think it was a death.

Because here's what gets me is. Oh, you think death? I think it was an accidental death, and then they got rid of the body.
Because the blood-sniffing dogs, remember that?

There's the dogs that are like experts.

Corpse sniffing.

The dog's alarmed on that. I do.
I always think it's the parents. Do you think Casey did the same thing, Anthony would say? Do you think Anthony?

Allegedly, people guess that it's like chloroform to go out and party. Yeah.
Hello. Sometimes that's what they do because that's what those parents did.

I think they drugged the kids to go to sleep so that they could have fun at the top of the place down the street.

And it's funny, my mom would watch me during this, and my daughter was that age at the time. She's like, I think of Emery too much.

And I'll call her about Delphi and I'll say, mom, this is what I saw today in court. She'll start crying.
And she's like, it's just so sad.

And not that I'm not sad, but I'm like, realize how hardened because I have to like talk about it on the air. And so I'm almost able to compartmentalize, but who knows? Long-term damage.

Like you're able to talk about it because it's my job. So,

but it is horribly sad. And the one day, so we're, we're, we get lottery tickets for pool reporters.
So I'm in the front row.

And that day that I got the pool, I took myself out of the lottery after that. I said to Nancy's producer, I'm like, get me out.
Because it's front row. And it was the crime scene photo day.

Oh, and it was zooming in. And I went, ah, like, oh, no.
And I had to, I got in trouble too. You laughed.
So I had to take notes, and I knew that it was going out to a pool because there's no cameras.

And my notes weren't that good. And we're in a lunch break.
And the Carroll County Comet newspaper lady who was like, Susan, I need your notes. I said, they're not done.
I'm just writing.

I'm googling the blood term. It was DNA day, and I'm so stressed.
And then I sent it at four o'clock. I had to take pictures so everyone could get it.
Well, Nancy's producer calls me.

I've been friends with him at CNN. He goes, Chairman, you got fired.
I go, what do you mean? He goes, you got let go. You didn't hand your notes in at noon.
I'm like, I'm fired for the pool.

They're like, yeah. I'm like, good.
I'd rather wait in line with the cool people anyway. It's just so funny.
I'm like, they're like, we won't be needing your services for the notes.

But I'm like, I don't want to sit in the front row and be worried about the notes. And that's the fine line.
Because I got close to the family. I was like, you know what?

Because I did go to the hearing and Mike, the grandfather's like, who are you with now? I'm like, myself. I wanted to be there.
I didn't want. So it's kind of like, I don't know.

I think I'm too in it almost with this case, like that I don't,

it's a little nuts. Yeah.
Well, for people who want to do a deep dive because you did,

get down the hill, the descent in my descent into the double murder in Delphi, which I'm excited to read.

I am. Maybe you can read out loud to me as I fall asleep.
I can read to the kids. Well, it's funny.
I asked the families because it mattered to me. I didn't want them to not want me to do this.

So I sent them a couple of chapters. I said, if you don't want me to do it, I won't do it.
And Becky said, no, it's okay. And she read it.
And this was a very big compliment to me.

Tara, Libby's aunt, said, can you send me four for Christmas? Because it's not, at this point, we didn't know much, but it's really about them going through beginning to end and their perspective.

So it wasn't like,

you know, not that I'm on my high horse saying I'm better, because people are really fascinated by the actual killer. You know, we can name them.
Yeah. We rarely can name the victims.

So I just wanted it to be a different perspective. Yeah.
I'm not saying I'm amazing by doing it. It's just what I knew

and what I could write about. And we don't get to hear those stories.

I don't think, you know, I've ever heard of a book like that where you hear from their perspective and how absolutely traumatizing that has to be to have something.

And to be able to keep going on.

And that's what it is. It's the connection at CrimeCon.
Like, if they can get through that, how do they get through that?

Then I can get through anything. I'm going through that.
So true. That's a good point.
So true. So that's what I've gained.

I've learned so much from them. And Kelsey Libby's sister wrote the foreword.
I asked her. And I'm like, if she can get through this, she was only 18 at the time.
She dropped them off at the bridge.

She blamed herself. She didn't know what to do.
I went to her baby shower. She has a little girl.
She's pregnant again. So, yes, I am too close.
But I love them. I really like them as people.

And I think I felt for the first time I was in the inside looking out. It said the outside looking in and getting the sound bite.
And I know it might be nuts, but it's my perspective.

Tell you what, I think you're nuts. I think you're nuts, but I'm going to read this.

Susan, thank you so much for coming. So much for having us.
It was so fun chatting with you. Hopefully, you can come back and we can do another dive into crime.

Would love to and horrible things that people

and home are Christmas child. Yes.
All right, that's it. We'll see you guys next week.
Bye.

Welcome to Macabre's Medical Monday. Today it's all about this, the cucumber, or as they call it in Jamaica, cucumber, cucumber,

cucumber, cucumber.

Vitamins, bitter and very high number. Silica, near and near, get longer.
Other vitamins make your poison stronger. Anti-lincoles make you look younger.

95% water. Kidney cleans are great create hydrator.
Eat up smoother with regulator. Hear about the good things, don't be a cheater.
Empty cucumber, cut it in a slice.

Put it in a jug of water overnight. You know what you get for a fraction of the price? Energy drink full of electrolyte.
Roaring salad is one of the user. As a base, we have vegetable juice.

But that's so bright, put a slice on your eyes. Take away the diet is revitalize.
Oh, yes.

One thing I have left. Kucumba can also help with bite forever, my friend.

Kukumba.

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Whoa, thanks, family.

What's going on? Cucumba.

What's going on? I've been having uh

cucumbers. Cucumbers.

Wow.

Eat cucumbers. Yeah.
I eat cucumbers and then it makes me look better.